Law School Discussion

Off-Topic Area => General Off-Topic Board => Topic started by: ->Soon on October 04, 2006, 12:47:56 PM

Title: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on October 04, 2006, 12:47:56 PM
i was talking to one of you Ho's (hehe) the other day, and she was saying law school is not at all what she expected.

clicky, like HS, but everyone is VERY quiet in class, and afraid to talk.
is this your experience?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Einstein on October 04, 2006, 02:50:52 PM
Well then, she needs to speak up in class and show the others how to do it. 

I have been in situations like this before.. especially in my LSAT prep class..

nobody wants to speak up out of shy or fear.  But if you start to speak up a lot, then others will follow... they are all like sheep just waiting to be lead somewhere.  Tell her that she must show them the way..lol
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 04, 2006, 04:28:42 PM
but everyone is VERY quiet in class, and afraid to talk.
is this your experience?


Many of my college classes were like that. It usually depended on the professor and his policy (possibly written but likely observed through experimentation) on talking. There were a few professors who couldn't control a classroom of 20 people and others who kept a class of 200 silent.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Bettn on October 04, 2006, 06:03:49 PM
clicky, like HS, but everyone is VERY quiet in class, and afraid to talk.
is this your experience?


My experience is that is is cliquey, but there's people that aren't afraid to talk. A lot of them.. And they're all pretty f-ing stupid. It's always the stupid people that talk - either they say something way off base, or they repeat what the prof just said so they can pretend they know something.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Alamo on October 04, 2006, 06:38:05 PM
In my classes, there's never a shortage of talkers, except in civil procedure (you will understand why when you take it).  Most are pretty intelligent.  There are some people who talk too much, and others who never talk unless called on (often, these people absolutely nail the point when they are called on).  I think it depends a lot on the school you go to, and the teachers.  Some teachers are more likely to shoot you down if you misunderstand something that you talk about, others are great at weaving it back into the direction in which the class should be going.  I'm sure the experience varies a lot from school to school. 

And yeah, it's a little cliquish, but the cliques don't seem to be as blatantly exclusive as they were in high school.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ANBUDOM on October 04, 2006, 09:56:17 PM
My professors this year are actually incredibly friendly so people aren't afraid to participate in class.  Even when you say something dumb, they will try to lead you to the correct answer or will put you down in a nice way... unless you have my torts professor...

Also, whenever the professor asks a simple question that you can answer, it might be wise to raise your hand and answer it as often as you can.  In that way, when you're called on when off guard, you can afford to look like a moron that one time. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Ever on October 04, 2006, 10:25:07 PM
My professors run the gambit. Two are very good at handling stupid comments; they either just say ďNo, that's wrongĒ or they steer whatever was said back to the topic. People donít mind talking in those classes. My contracts professor will poke fun at you, but heís nice about it and lots of people are willing to engage. Civil procedure is another story. The professor is nuts and if he thinks youíre a moron or the case weíre reading is wrong heíll start yelling. Heís nice to the girls, though. Criminal law just depends on the professorís mood. Some days heís very witty and funny and other days he will not hesitate to slam anything you say.

Yeah, itís clicky, but I havenít noticed much exclusivity; more like people just gravitate towards like minds.

The work is very different than what I expected. Iím not even sure how to describe it, maybe someone else can try.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: bruin on October 04, 2006, 10:36:28 PM
i was talking to one of you Ho's (hehe) the other day, and she was saying law school is not at all what she expected.

clicky, like HS, but everyone is VERY quiet in class, and afraid to talk.
is this your experience?


Pretty much, though its not as much being afraid to talk as just not feeling the need; as most classes are socratic (or have an on-call system, at least), we are all going to have our moment, so why volunteer on top of that.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ! B L U E WAR R I O R..! on October 05, 2006, 12:33:57 AM
relax...and read the book "global rift" it is close to my heart. ;)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on October 05, 2006, 06:35:43 AM
People aren't too afraid to talk in my classes.  However, I've found that you can volunteer to answer one question that you know and then be asked a series of 5 more questions that you have no idea how to answer, so I don't always raise my hand even when I know something.  My professors aren't nasty if you don't know the answer, but sometimes they'll make you suffer for a little bit before moving on.

The most painful times in class are when the professor calls on someone who doesn't know what's going on and rides them for like 30 minutes.  It's just bad for everyone.  I really wish people would stop being so self-conscious about looking like an idiot and be more confident about what they say, it's not like the rest of us give a *&^% and then we don't have to waste 10 minutes on "uh... umm... I think... maybe... ummm...." etc etc.

It is VERY cliquey for the people who aren't married.  And some of the people who are married are on the fringes of law school socialization because they just go home to their spouses.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on October 05, 2006, 06:38:25 AM
People aren't too afraid to talk in my classes.  However, I've found that you can volunteer to answer one question that you know and then be asked a series of 5 more questions that you have no idea how to answer, so I don't always raise my hand even when I know something.  My professors aren't nasty if you don't know the answer, but sometimes they'll make you suffer for a little bit before moving on.

The most painful times in class are when the professor calls on someone who doesn't know what's going on and rides them for like 30 minutes.  It's just bad for everyone.  I really wish people would stop being so self-conscious about looking like an idiot and be more confident about what they say, it's not like the rest of us give a *&^% and then we don't have to waste 10 minutes on "uh... umm... I think... maybe... ummm...." etc etc.

It is VERY cliquey for the people who aren't married.  And some of the people who are married are on the fringes of law school socialization because they just go home to their spouses.

if you dont know, why just not say so?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on October 05, 2006, 06:43:03 AM
People aren't too afraid to talk in my classes.  However, I've found that you can volunteer to answer one question that you know and then be asked a series of 5 more questions that you have no idea how to answer, so I don't always raise my hand even when I know something.  My professors aren't nasty if you don't know the answer, but sometimes they'll make you suffer for a little bit before moving on.

The most painful times in class are when the professor calls on someone who doesn't know what's going on and rides them for like 30 minutes.  It's just bad for everyone.  I really wish people would stop being so self-conscious about looking like an idiot and be more confident about what they say, it's not like the rest of us give a *&^% and then we don't have to waste 10 minutes on "uh... umm... I think... maybe... ummm...." etc etc.

It is VERY cliquey for the people who aren't married.  And some of the people who are married are on the fringes of law school socialization because they just go home to their spouses.

if you dont know, why just not say so?

Some people will, but others are probably too afraid to just admit they don't know because it shows they're unprepared for class.  No one wants to tell the professor they can't present a case because they didn't read it, so they try to stumble along.  For other questions, I will gladly look like an idiot and say I don't know instead of trying to pull something out of my ass, but I'm not as freaked out as some about getting called on.  I looked like an idiot in Torts earlier this week because I was IMing when the prof called on me for some little question and I wasn't paying enough attention to know that my answer was right so I said I didn't know.  My feeling is that everyone's going to look like a dumbass eventually, so whatever.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on October 06, 2006, 02:05:57 PM
bump.

more info por favor?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: aerynn on October 06, 2006, 03:01:52 PM
My profs don't let you off if you say you don't know.  They go to a question you do know then try to lead to the answer they were going for.

The work is so different from what I expected.  You read 2 pages 2 twice, take careful notes, then go to class and have a prof point out slowly through questioning 20 things you didn't notice about it.  Then at the end you find out the next case completely reverses or changes the rule established by the first, so all that work is just for historical interest.  Then you read a 3rd case and you find out the second was the odd one, and the rule to take away is the one established in the first.  It is like playing Where's Waldo, but with words instead of pictures and all the words are in a foreign language, so you have to translate them before playing.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on October 06, 2006, 03:08:46 PM
My profs don't let you off if you say you don't know.  They go to a question you do know then try to lead to the answer they were going for.

The work is so different from what I expected.  You read 2 pages 2 twice, take careful notes, then go to class and have a prof point out slowly through questioning 20 things you didn't notice about it.  Then at the end you find out the next case completely reverses or changes the rule established by the first, so all that work is just for historical interest.  Then you read a 3rd case and you find out the second was the odd one, and the rule to take away is the one established in the first.  It is like playing Where's Waldo, but with words instead of pictures and all the words are in a foreign language, so you have to translate them before playing.

what r ur first classes?

do they have a "lawyer language" one?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on October 06, 2006, 03:33:59 PM
No. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: SCgrad on October 06, 2006, 05:20:41 PM
People aren't too afraid to talk in my classes.  However, I've found that you can volunteer to answer one question that you know and then be asked a series of 5 more questions that you have no idea how to answer, so I don't always raise my hand even when I know something.  My professors aren't nasty if you don't know the answer, but sometimes they'll make you suffer for a little bit before moving on.

The most painful times in class are when the professor calls on someone who doesn't know what's going on and rides them for like 30 minutes.  It's just bad for everyone.  I really wish people would stop being so self-conscious about looking like an idiot and be more confident about what they say, it's not like the rest of us give a *&^% and then we don't have to waste 10 minutes on "uh... umm... I think... maybe... ummm...." etc etc.

It is VERY cliquey for the people who aren't married.  And some of the people who are married are on the fringes of law school socialization because they just go home to their spouses.

if you dont know, why just not say so?

Some people will, but others are probably too afraid to just admit they don't know because it shows they're unprepared for class.  No one wants to tell the professor they can't present a case because they didn't read it, so they try to stumble along.  For other questions, I will gladly look like an idiot and say I don't know instead of trying to pull something out of my ass, but I'm not as freaked out as some about getting called on.  I looked like an idiot in Torts earlier this week because I was IMing when the prof called on me for some little question and I wasn't paying enough attention to know that my answer was right so I said I didn't know.  My feeling is that everyone's going to look like a dumbass eventually, so whatever.

Better to look lazy than stupid.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: aerynn on October 07, 2006, 12:31:19 PM
I have torts, civ pro, crim, and "legal skills" which is "don't talk like a lawyer" class to try to innoculate us against producing more of this terrible language we are learning to read. ;)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 07, 2006, 01:39:04 PM
So, OGs -- it law school like a madrassah or what?

Follow up questions for the people who've done social science & humanities in UG: Are you appalled by the simplistic treatment of "policy", and "fairness", or do you not care all that much?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Alamo on October 07, 2006, 01:54:42 PM
So, OGs -- it law school like a madrassah or what?

Follow up questions for the people who've done social science & humanities in UG: Are you appalled by the simplistic treatment of "policy", and "fairness", or do you not care all that much?

Why do you assume that fairness, policy, "good faith," reasonableness and other such ambiguous concepts are treated simplistically?  They're at the heart of pretty much every aspect of law, even civil procedure!  Like my contracts professor says, fairness usually cuts both ways . . .   
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Alamo on October 07, 2006, 02:04:12 PM
So, OGs -- it law school like a madrassah or what?

Follow up questions for the people who've done social science & humanities in UG: Are you appalled by the simplistic treatment of "policy", and "fairness", or do you not care all that much?

Why do you assume that fairness, policy, "good faith," reasonableness and other such ambiguous concepts are treated simplistically?  They're at the heart of pretty much every aspect of law, even civil procedure!  Like my contracts professor says, fairness usually cuts both ways . . .   

Maybe things like "in most matters it is more important that the applicable rule of law be settled than that it be settled right."

I have no idea what the holding in that case was, either.

Who said that?  I don't agree, and I doubt you find many modern legal scholars who honestly espouse that view.  I don't think this phrase, if applicable anywhere, is usually relevant to areas where right and wrong are clear and simple.
Title: Re: for those who have started law school
Post by: Alamo on October 07, 2006, 02:21:30 PM
Brandeis said it; Black quoted it in his dissent for New York v US in 1946.  Brandeis was justifying stare decisis.  It's a very quotable quotation, no?

You'll see it again if you haven't seen it yet.

I've not seen this, and I'll certainly not disparage its quotability.  I don't think it supports stare decisis though.  To me, that doctrine says: don't reinvent the wheel.  It's precisely at the point where law isn't settled right that the doctrine begins to break down.  I'm not saying there's no truth to the proposition, but I don't take it at face value.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on October 07, 2006, 02:31:48 PM
your all starting to speak lawyer talk.

may Mel have mercy on your souls...
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 07, 2006, 02:40:26 PM
Damn. Wrote a long response, and lost it to the ghost in the machine.

Here's one short question. Do you, for example, discuss the Coase Theorem with any degree of depth or sophistication, or does the prof say "here is what Ronald said, here's what it means, here's why it's relevant. By the way, Guido said something a bit different" and then just move on?

Or, do you discuss the differences or similarities between the reasonable person standard (which is the law) and the marginal utility approach (which is not the law)? Is the reasonable person, for example, a utility-maximizer? If not, why do you learn about the Posner approach? If she is.... well, I'll have follow up questions.

I'm curious about this sort of thing.

 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: SCgrad on October 07, 2006, 02:45:09 PM
We talk about that a lot in my torts class because GW doesn't have a methods class and it drives my prof crazy.  The reasonable person uses the Learned Hand formula (also Posner, but Hand started it).

Follow up question?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 07, 2006, 02:49:22 PM
We talk about that a lot in my torts class because GW doesn't have a methods class and it drives my prof crazy.  The reasonable person uses the Learned Hand formula (also Posner, but Hand started it).

Follow up question?

Yeah, so - does he explain why Posner doen't use his interpretation of Hand when he's adjudicating? Does the question of why you learn the Hand Formula at all ever come up, since all 52 jurisdictions repudiate it?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on October 07, 2006, 02:53:22 PM
Damn. Wrote a long response, and lost it to the ghost in the machine.

Here's one short question. Do you, for example, discuss the Coase Theorem with any degree of depth or sophistication, or does the prof say "here is what Ronald said, here's what it means, here's why it's relevant. By the way, Guido said something a bit different" and then just move on?

Or, do you discuss the differences or similarities between the reasonable person standard (which is the law) and the marginal utility approach (which is not the law)? Is the reasonable person, for example, a utility-maximizer? If not, why do you learn about the Posner approach? If she is.... well, I'll have follow up questions.

I'm curious about this sort of thing.

 

My classes tend to do the latter. It doesn't seem like any of my classes approach anything simplistically. It may just be that ND is all about discussing policy and fairness and not so much about explaining what things mean and why it's relevant.  It does seem to be more straightforward in Contracts, but in Crim, Civ Pro, and Torts, not so much.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 07, 2006, 02:55:42 PM
It is like playing Where's Waldo, but with words instead of pictures and all the words are in a foreign language, so you have to translate them before playing.

I also loved this description!  And doesn't it feel strange to work so hard to prepare for class and then realize that you're going to be graded by number on an exam at the end of the semester and all that work may be for naught?

I also have the problem that I'm always distracted by the sniping in conlaw opinions, so I tend to only clearly remember snotty meta-dicta like "with colorful hyperbole, the court suggests..." and "all that stands between the remaining essentials of state sovereignty and Congress is the latterís underdeveloped capacity for self restraint" and "that an assertion of historical fact has been made by a Justice of the Court does not make it so."  The holdings, though?  No idea.

Me too!  We did a bunch of war powers and enemy detention cases this week, and between all of the concurrences and dissents in Youngstown, Hamdi and Hamdan, there were little SCOTUS musicals running through my head.  In his solo number, "Mr. Fix-It (Mentality)" Scalia sings, "The plurality seems to view it as its mission to Make Everything Come Out Right, rather than merely to decree the consequences," etc.  Also, it would help if I had gone to an undergraduate institution where my being an American history major actually meant that I knew what happened in the last 250 or so years.

So, OGs -- it law school like a madrassah or what?

Follow up questions for the people who've done social science & humanities in UG: Are you appalled by the simplistic treatment of "policy", and "fairness", or do you not care all that much?

Despite trollik's and popebendict's accusations, I've never actually been to a madrassah, so I'm not sure.  :D
As for the other thing, I'm tempted to say appalled, but I actually find myself not caring that much as long as my classmates aren't arguing for capital punishment for non-violent offenses or the end of environmental regulation and such.

As for your other questions, the level of sophistication about theory and policy and history and such really depends on the class.  My contracts class is very interdisciplinary and has a kind of liberal arts bent; my crim class is pretty straight up, "Is this mens rea standard objective or subjective?"

Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: SCgrad on October 07, 2006, 02:58:00 PM
he's not teaching us to be lawyers, we learn that later, I suppose.


And Posner has used it and others do to.  They don't plug values in, but there are numerous cases that find deft. in the right because the burden of protecting plaintiff are too great for the risk.


(And I think Posner did actually plug values in once, but I haven't actually read that case, I just heard it from the prof.)


But yeah, he tells us that we don't have to buy this.  We've talked about whether or not this notion of social optimality is a falsehood or not.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 07, 2006, 03:10:11 PM
(And I think Posner did actually plug values in once, but I haven't actually read that case, I just heard it from the prof.)

I believe this is Lake River v. Carborundum, FWIW.  Interestingly enough, he remands instead of just vacating judgment in favor of his rather precise calculations. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: SCgrad on October 07, 2006, 03:16:08 PM
We learned that while no one just "uses the hand formula" it is applied in many cases. 
you don't have to say "the burden was lower than the risk times the loss, so negligent" to use the formula.  you can see its stains on many cases.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 07, 2006, 03:23:45 PM
Me too!  We did a bunch of war powers and enemy detention cases this week, and between all of the concurrences and dissents in Youngstown, Hamdi and Hamdan, there were little SCOTUS musicals running through my head.  In his solo number, "Mr. Fix-It (Mentality)" Scalia sings, "The plurality seems to view it as its mission to Make Everything Come Out Right, rather than merely to decree the consequences," etc.  Also, it would help if I had gone to an undergraduate institution where my being an American history major actually meant that I knew what happened in the last 250 or so years.

Oooh, we're starting those next week.  I'd really love to have a little USSC musical to help me remember who said what and when they said it and to which previous pile of disagreements they were referring!

Sadly, it hasn't helped me much. They're all just twirling around my head in costume (Sandra Day, too, with her silly collar).  I do remember that in Hamdi Stevens signs on with Scalia, an unusual pairing, and Thomas issues a solo dissent that is remarkably offensive (you know, the president may not even have to be acting in good faith when detaining people), even for him.  In Youngstown, I guess Justice Jackson's concurrence (you know the one, "When the President takes measures incompatible with the expressed or implied will of Congress, his power is at its lowest ebb...") is the thing to focus on.  Um, Hamdan, what to remember?  Oh, in Scalia's dissent, where he discusses the Exceptions Clause -- I think this will probably be the subject of next wave of opinions on detention.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 07, 2006, 04:51:21 PM
Interesting.

I guess my main interest is in whether there is a recognition that there is nothing at all settled about concepts like fairness, utility, efficiency, reasonable, etc., and that when the concepts are used in law they're not really being used in a technical sense, but more in a "street" or "folk" usage. I've flipped through some materials on K, for example, and I see "duress", glance down at the anemic notes below the case purportedly highlighting duress as an issue, and think "whoa, that's weak".

I've always suspected -- and, Halfie, I think you'll understand where I'm coming from; I know that Archrival & Miss P will -- is that one of the two principal ways that legal education is profoundly unsatisfactory is in presenting vastly complicated substantive issues (e.g. fairness, utility, reasonable) in deliberately (almost laughably) simplistic terms. Law students, cowed, may forget, if they ever knew, that these concepts are not self-evident. Fast forward a few years, and you have these same students, now judges, deciding cases and trying to determine whether there is any difference at all between a case like Cotnam v. Wisdom and one like Webb v. McGowin.

The other way that legal ed seems to hide the ball (from my humble 0L perspective) is in distorting the facts of the case, but that's another story.

Funnily enough, I think that the less said about "policy", the better. They should just teach cases, not attempt to reconcile them, set exams, and see what comes of it. Seems more honest that way.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 07, 2006, 05:58:49 PM
A bunch of our casebooks actually have long, interesting notes about the circumstances of the cases -- you know, kind of a law-and-society type of thing.  But I do know what red. means.  For me, however, the most disconcerting or confusing thing about legal education is the fact that the work we do all semester (and in class) won't really be reflected in our grades.  And I don't care very much about grades, but I do REALLY want to retain my scholarships.

Okay, I'm off to my game, kids! See you later.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 07, 2006, 06:33:28 PM
The other way that legal ed seems to hide the ball (from my humble 0L perspective) is in distorting the facts of the case, but that's another story.

Iím willing to give Ďem a break on that one.  I donít know anyone who doesnít distort the ďfactsĒ of whatever.  I donít even think of them as facts.  What the hell is a fact anyway?  I like to think of it as the official story.  Still, I'll often get the sense that the official story is distorted.

Another of my favorite, useless-come-exam-time quotations comes from the oral argument in Raich, comparing it to Wickard:
O'Connor: "I really think you can distinguish this on the facts."
Gov't counsel: "With respect, madame justice, I think you can distinguish any case on the facts."


Ha! Great quote.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 07, 2006, 10:38:55 PM
And I don't care very much about grades

Self-deception is unbecoming on you.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 07, 2006, 10:55:13 PM
And I don't care very much about grades

Self-deception is unbecoming on you.

What, bb?  Now you're being silly.  I care very much about grades so that I can maintain my scholarships.  Otherwise, since I plan to join a paradigmatically non-competitive field, I'm more worried about how I do in my clinics and whether I am understanding what's going on.  My ability to help my clients will depend on these things.

More important, how excited are you about redemption's return? :)  Red., you should know that bb started at least one thread about how much he missed you -- quite seriously. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 07, 2006, 11:11:03 PM
What, bb?  Now you're being silly.  I care very much about grades so that I can maintain my scholarships.  Otherwise, since I plan to join a paradigmatically non-competitive field, I'm more worried about how I do in my clinics and whether I am understanding what's going on.  My ability to help my clients will depend on these things.

They'll be very importance when or if (my money is on when, as yours would be if compassion wasnít distracting you) you pursue something more suitable to your intellect.   
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 07, 2006, 11:17:31 PM
More important, how excited are you about redemption's return? :)

I'm very excited. Hers is a career I'll watch with some interest, though I think it may sadly be limited to academia.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 07, 2006, 11:28:23 PM
What, bb?  Now you're being silly.  I care very much about grades so that I can maintain my scholarships.  Otherwise, since I plan to join a paradigmatically non-competitive field, I'm more worried about how I do in my clinics and whether I am understanding what's going on.  My ability to help my clients will depend on these things.

They'll be very importance when or if (my money is on when, as yours would be if compassion wasn’t distracting you) you pursue something more suitable to your intellect.   

Once again, I think you're vastly overestimating my intellect and somewhat underestimating both my commitment to and the difficulty of public defender work.  But thank you.

More important, how excited are you about redemption's return? :)

I'm very excited. Hers is a career I'll watch with some interest, though I think it may sadly be limited to academia.

I sort of see her doing some kind of human rights advocacy, you know, ED at some kind of African ngo, perhaps the diplomatic corps.  But I've always been way too literal.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 07, 2006, 11:49:10 PM
Once again, I think you're vastly overestimating my intellect and somewhat underestimating both my commitment to and the difficulty of public defender work.  But thank you.

Not at all, it is very difficult work (although of a different kind than youíd probably enjoy). In fact, itís so difficult as to be impossible, fruitless or, usually, both. Iíve no doubt youíll figure this out eventually, but thatís not what worries me. I can see you ignoring your better judgment and sticking with it, not realizing that if you tweak your aspirations, ever so slightly, youíll be happier and make 10 times the difference you otherwise would.

Quote
I sort of see her doing some kind of human rights advocacy, you know, ED at some kind of African ngo, perhaps the diplomatic corps.  But I've always been way too literal.

Iíd agree, although I think sheíll move a bit further than that. Trouble is that she, like you but to a lesser degree, has intellect but little slyness or guile. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 08:49:23 AM
And I don't care very much about grades

Self-deception is unbecoming on you.

What, bb?  Now you're being silly.  I care very much about grades so that I can maintain my scholarships.  Otherwise, since I plan to join a paradigmatically non-competitive field, I'm more worried about how I do in my clinics and whether I am understanding what's going on.  My ability to help my clients will depend on these things.

More important, how excited are you about redemption's return? :)  Red., you should know that bb started at least one thread about how much he missed you -- quite seriously. 

Eh, he's okay. He's only done one thing that was mean-spirited and that I really disapprove of, and I think that he'd recognize that that was a mistake.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 08:53:47 AM
she, like you but to a lesser degree, has intellect but little slyness or guile. 

You underestimate me.

Anyway, as I've said many times, law school, three or four years of clerkship/work, find a suitable mate, raise a family. That's more than enough for me. If academia is able to accomodate that, great; if not, too bad.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 08:56:45 AM
What, bb?  Now you're being silly.  I care very much about grades so that I can maintain my scholarships.  Otherwise, since I plan to join a paradigmatically non-competitive field, I'm more worried about how I do in my clinics and whether I am understanding what's going on.  My ability to help my clients will depend on these things.

More important, how excited are you about redemption's return? :)  Red., you should know that bb started at least one thread about how much he missed you -- quite seriously. 

Yeah, but, you don't have to be competitive to strain the curve. It's a side-benefit of just doing your best.

Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 09:02:13 AM
Huh.  Now I'm not sure how much of my preexisting skepticism and academic background makes me believe that when we see an argument about "utility" or "fairness" or whatever we're operating off of the argumenter's implicit, and certainly debatable, definition of that concept, where maybe other students are just buying into it.

I will say this: when the discussion turns to fairness or something of that nature, all of my professors so far have been good about not giving answers, and further, asking narrowed questions such as "is this fair to the plaintiff? what about the defendant?" and "is this anti-democratic? how? in what ways is it good, in what ways is it bad?" etc.  This sort of stuff has been a bigger topic of conversation with my two younger professors, for what that's worth, but we haven't received a particularly slanted narrative in any class -- and where there is one, e.g. the Epstein torts casebook, the professor has been pretty good about noting objections to some of his arguments. 

(I have no reason to think these four professors are particularly representative, however.  Indeed I recently noticed a plaque of recent winners of the annual "best teacher award" or whatever it is, and three of them seem to win it quite frequently--I'm not actually sure in which direction that cuts, if any, but I think it's worth noting.)

Oh, and the treatment of these things in the casebooks is in general not very good.

Yeah, but really, they need to do more than just ask questions. Asking the questions just reinforces the very notion that it -- what's fair, what's efficient, etc - is common sense. And it just ain't so.

One of my favorite glimpses was in skimming some guy's commentary on Allegheney and it said something like "courts enforce charitable subscriptions without consideration because we want charities to be able to depend on promises so that they can keep doing their good work". I laughed so hard at that, I almost cried.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 09:05:08 AM

He misjudges a lot of people.  It amuses me, because he think he's so terribly clever and knowing.

Eh, what you have to know about breadboy is that he won't commit himself out of a fear of being embarrassed. He'll skim the surface. Sounds bad, but it is WAY less irritating than than the gaggles of people who've come to this board who commmit themselves and are absolutely certain that they're right when a child could pick their arguments apart with ease. Those people make me sad.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 08, 2006, 09:29:35 AM

He misjudges a lot of people.  It amuses me, because he think he's so terribly clever and knowing.

Eh, what you have to know about breadboy is that he won't commit himself out of a fear of being embarrassed. He'll skim the surface. Sounds bad, but it is WAY less irritating than than the gaggles of people who've come to this board who commmit themselves and are absolutely certain that they're right when a child could pick their arguments apart with ease. Those people make me sad.

That sounds like me!  Uh-oh!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 09:29:58 AM
Yeah, but really, they need to do more than just ask questions. Asking the questions just reinforces the very notion that it -- what's fair, what's efficient, etc - is common sense. And it just ain't so.

Do you think it makes a difference if they use those questions to break down people's "common sense" reactions to a case with respect to, say, fairness?

It could, if the kids had anything to draw on. The problem is that you have all sorts mixed in -- engineers who've never read Aristotle, economists who wouldn't know a laffer curve if it fondled them, etc. It's no good just asking the question; you have to say, "look, there is something called 'sociology' which complicates the notion of duress; there's something called 'literature' which complicates the idea of narrative; there's something called 'behavioral economics' which complicates the idea of utility; there's something called 'psychology' and something else called 'psychoanalysis' which makes 'mens rea' a troublesome conflict. But they don't do that. Maybe they -- the people who teach -- don't feel confident in their own grasp of these things, or maybe they do and they just don't see their job as doing anything other than getting through the casebook with as little fuss as possible. I'd guess that it's the latter. Raise those issue, and you'd have to deal with legal ed in an entirely different way; none of this business of pretending that holdings can be reconciled in any systematic way (this is, I think, a mistake that all metatheories, including, ironically, CLS, make).

A better approach would be to treat very, very few cases and explore the decision-making process in each of them. Look at the trial transcript, including the procedural motions to include/exclude certain evidence, a biography of the appellate judge, the kinds of narrative strategies used at the appellate level, what happened to the plaintiff and defendant after the resolution of the case, etc -- and back this up with a plausible multidisciplinary approach. Law is violence, law schools should take the law seriously. Instead, what they do -- what they seem to be engineered to do -- is to encourage students to both treat it as trivial AND to respect it. You've got to admire that they pull it off so well, but it doesn't exactly advance the cause of justice.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 09:31:35 AM

He misjudges a lot of people.  It amuses me, because he think he's so terribly clever and knowing.

Eh, what you have to know about breadboy is that he won't commit himself out of a fear of being embarrassed. He'll skim the surface. Sounds bad, but it is WAY less irritating than than the gaggles of people who've come to this board who commmit themselves and are absolutely certain that they're right when a child could pick their arguments apart with ease. Those people make me sad.

That sounds like me!  Uh-oh!

Not quite. You do what I do: you speak in the language of the audience.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 08, 2006, 09:34:00 AM

He misjudges a lot of people.  It amuses me, because he think he's so terribly clever and knowing.

Eh, what you have to know about breadboy is that he won't commit himself out of a fear of being embarrassed. He'll skim the surface. Sounds bad, but it is WAY less irritating than than the gaggles of people who've come to this board who commmit themselves and are absolutely certain that they're right when a child could pick their arguments apart with ease. Those people make me sad.

That sounds like me!  Uh-oh!

Not quite. You do what I do: you speak in the language of the audience.

You and bb really should form the "Overestimating P" club.  But anyway, let me try to tamp my narcissism this morning.  Carry on. :)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on October 08, 2006, 10:11:53 AM
Yeah, but really, they need to do more than just ask questions. Asking the questions just reinforces the very notion that it -- what's fair, what's efficient, etc - is common sense. And it just ain't so.

Do you think it makes a difference if they use those questions to break down people's "common sense" reactions to a case with respect to, say, fairness?

It could, if the kids had anything to draw on. The problem is that you have all sorts mixed in -- engineers who've never read Aristotle, economists who wouldn't know a laffer curve if it fondled them, etc. It's no good just asking the question; you have to say, "look, there is something called 'sociology' which complicates the notion of duress; there's something called 'literature' which complicates the idea of narrative; there's something called 'behavioral economics' which complicates the idea of utility; there's something called 'psychology' and something else called 'psychoanalysis' which makes 'mens rea' a troublesome conflict. But they don't do that. Maybe they -- the people who teach -- don't feel confident in their own grasp of these things, or maybe they do and they just don't see their job as doing anything other than getting through the casebook with as little fuss as possible. I'd guess that it's the latter. Raise those issue, and you'd have to deal with legal ed in an entirely different way; none of this business of pretending that holdings can be reconciled in any systematic way (this is, I think, a mistake that all metatheories, including, ironically, CLS, make).

A better approach would be to treat very, very few cases and explore the decision-making process in each of them. Look at the trial transcript, including the procedural motions to include/exclude certain evidence, a biography of the appellate judge, the kinds of narrative strategies used at the appellate level, what happened to the plaintiff and defendant after the resolution of the case, etc -- and back this up with a plausible multidisciplinary approach. Law is violence, law schools should take the law seriously. Instead, what they do -- what they seem to be engineered to do -- is to encourage students to both treat it as trivial AND to respect it. You've got to admire that they pull it off so well, but it doesn't exactly advance the cause of justice.

I think you've hit the nail on the head in terms of the capabilities of the class. While there are some students who do have experience in multiple areas due to multiple majors or varied work experience, many have a limited field of knowledge related strictly to their major and limited to no real-world experience from which to draw. As much as professors may want to try to ask more esoteric questions, in many cases, the students just don't respond. Lots of my professors will just make you answer something, but if the class is just not getting it, then the prof just has to move on.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Alamo on October 08, 2006, 10:56:27 AM
Yeah, but really, they need to do more than just ask questions. Asking the questions just reinforces the very notion that it -- what's fair, what's efficient, etc - is common sense. And it just ain't so.

Do you think it makes a difference if they use those questions to break down people's "common sense" reactions to a case with respect to, say, fairness?

It could, if the kids had anything to draw on. The problem is that you have all sorts mixed in -- engineers who've never read Aristotle, economists who wouldn't know a laffer curve if it fondled them, etc. It's no good just asking the question; you have to say, "look, there is something called 'sociology' which complicates the notion of duress; there's something called 'literature' which complicates the idea of narrative; there's something called 'behavioral economics' which complicates the idea of utility; there's something called 'psychology' and something else called 'psychoanalysis' which makes 'mens rea' a troublesome conflict. But they don't do that. Maybe they -- the people who teach -- don't feel confident in their own grasp of these things, or maybe they do and they just don't see their job as doing anything other than getting through the casebook with as little fuss as possible. I'd guess that it's the latter. Raise those issue, and you'd have to deal with legal ed in an entirely different way; none of this business of pretending that holdings can be reconciled in any systematic way (this is, I think, a mistake that all metatheories, including, ironically, CLS, make).

A better approach would be to treat very, very few cases and explore the decision-making process in each of them. Look at the trial transcript, including the procedural motions to include/exclude certain evidence, a biography of the appellate judge, the kinds of narrative strategies used at the appellate level, what happened to the plaintiff and defendant after the resolution of the case, etc -- and back this up with a plausible multidisciplinary approach. Law is violence, law schools should take the law seriously. Instead, what they do -- what they seem to be engineered to do -- is to encourage students to both treat it as trivial AND to respect it. You've got to admire that they pull it off so well, but it doesn't exactly advance the cause of justice.

I think you've hit the nail on the head in terms of the capabilities of the class. While there are some students who do have experience in multiple areas due to multiple majors or varied work experience, many have a limited field of knowledge related strictly to their major and limited to no real-world experience from which to draw. As much as professors may want to try to ask more esoteric questions, in many cases, the students just don't respond. Lots of my professors will just make you answer something, but if the class is just not getting it, then the prof just has to move on.

I second the comments on class capabilities, and would add that a number of people, particularly the more linear, engineer-type thinkers wouldn't really get much out of many such discussions and would start zoning out pretty quickly.  Not that it would provide no benefit to them, but if you view the teacher's job in terms of maximizing pedagogical utility for the greatest number of students (I do, I'd expect that many may not view it so simplistically), discussion of this must necessarily be limited in order to cover all of the concepts necessary to build a solid foundation of legal knowledge.

As I understand it, that's pretty much what first year is - the foundation.  After first year, you'll likely get into classes that can expand on what I think are the really interesting questions.  At Yale, I'm sure it'll be a more in-depth experience from the beginning.

Still, it's not like legal ed is the simple memorization of a bunch of facts, and even theories.  Doing the sort of advocacy and counselling that most of us will do in practice, I think it is important to understand the underlying issues behind the principles - otherwise, you'll have trouble even knowing which principles should apply in differing situations.  Teaching students to simply apply rules without thinking of the corresponding reasoning that led to the rule in the first place, which often requires a relevant history lesson, will lead to bad lawyering, and I hope that it's not the way any school teaches.  All holdings may not be reconcilable, but they're certainly not random, nor are they produced in a vacuum.

In looking at each of your disciplines and asking the corresponding deeper questions, I'd say it's varied a lot from question to question.  In crim law, we've spent a lot of time looking at the notions and history that underlie mens rea and differing theories of punishment, (even discussing Foucault for a while).  In terms of literature and narrative, I don't know that I've heard either of those words spoken by a prof since I've been here.  Utility and duress issues have fallen somewhere in between. 

I can't say I agree with your approach to looking at a few cases very closely, unless you'd like for a JD to take 8 years instead of 3; there's simply too much material to really learn everything you need to know and get into that much depth for each case.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 11:00:22 AM

I think you've hit the nail on the head in terms of the capabilities of the class. While there are some students who do have experience in multiple areas due to multiple majors or varied work experience, many have a limited field of knowledge related strictly to their major and limited to no real-world experience from which to draw. As much as professors may want to try to ask more esoteric questions, in many cases, the students just don't respond. Lots of my professors will just make you answer something, but if the class is just not getting it, then the prof just has to move on.

Yeah but. These kids have graduated from high school, graduated from college, and now are going to graduate from law school, all without being taught anything. Why? Because at each stage of their education the people who are supposed to facilitate their education say (or think) that they weren't taught properly before they arrived there. I mean, there are consequences to that. Somebody, at some point, has to say "look, it's kind of important that we don't turn out zombies", and actually help students to become knowledgeable and thoughtful people. When we look across the globe and see those kids in the white caps memorizing and regurgitating the Holy Koran, we are appalled -- "but they need a proper education!". Why are not appalled when older kids, about in graduate education, about to have real clients with real problems, go through exactly the same thing?

Part of the answer, I suppose, is that schools know that real legal ed comes later, in the apprenticeship process. But I really believe that not grounding people (who are paying quite a lot of money) in some basic skills can't be a good thing, and that it can't be made up for in some warehouse doing discovery as a biglaw litigation serf.

Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 11:02:25 AM

I think you've hit the nail on the head in terms of the capabilities of the class. While there are some students who do have experience in multiple areas due to multiple majors or varied work experience, many have a limited field of knowledge related strictly to their major and limited to no real-world experience from which to draw. As much as professors may want to try to ask more esoteric questions, in many cases, the students just don't respond. Lots of my professors will just make you answer something, but if the class is just not getting it, then the prof just has to move on.

Yeah but. These kids have graduated from high school, graduated from college, and now are going to graduate from law school, all without being taught anything. Why? Because at each stage of their education the people who are supposed to facilitate their education say (or think) that they weren't taught properly before they arrived there. I mean, there are consequences to that. Somebody, at some point, has to say "look, it's kind of important that we don't turn out zombies", and actually help students to become knowledgeable and thoughtful people. When we look across the globe and see those kids in the white caps memorizing and regurgitating the Holy Koran, we are appalled -- "but they need a proper education!". Why are not appalled when older kids, about in graduate education, about to have real clients with real problems, go through exactly the same thing?

Part of the answer, I suppose, is that schools know that real legal ed comes later, in the apprenticeship process. But I really believe that not grounding people (who are paying quite a lot of money) in some basic skills can't be a good thing, and that it can't be made up for in some warehouse doing discovery as a biglaw litigation serf.

have you considered the possibility that there might in fact be value in turning out zombies?

yes, that's a serious question.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on October 08, 2006, 11:11:27 AM

I think you've hit the nail on the head in terms of the capabilities of the class. While there are some students who do have experience in multiple areas due to multiple majors or varied work experience, many have a limited field of knowledge related strictly to their major and limited to no real-world experience from which to draw. As much as professors may want to try to ask more esoteric questions, in many cases, the students just don't respond. Lots of my professors will just make you answer something, but if the class is just not getting it, then the prof just has to move on.

Yeah but. These kids have graduated from high school, graduated from college, and now are going to graduate from law school, all without being taught anything. Why? Because at each stage of their education the people who are supposed to facilitate their education say (or think) that they weren't taught properly before they arrived there. I mean, there are consequences to that. Somebody, at some point, has to say "look, it's kind of important that we don't turn out zombies", and actually help students to become knowledgeable and thoughtful people. When we look across the globe and see those kids in the white caps memorizing and regurgitating the Holy Koran, we are appalled -- "but they need a proper education!". Why are not appalled when older kids, about in graduate education, about to have real clients with real problems, go through exactly the same thing?

Part of the answer, I suppose, is that schools know that real legal ed comes later, in the apprenticeship process. But I really believe that not grounding people (who are paying quite a lot of money) in some basic skills can't be a good thing, and that it can't be made up for in some warehouse doing discovery as a biglaw litigation serf.



I get where you're coming from. I think a big argument at any level of education is that the prior level did not do its job. Where high school and undergrad can at least spend some time remediating, there is a certain level that is assumed in law school that may not actually be there. I do find it appalling that some students seem to completely lack critical thinking skills. My professors do tend to encourage it, but not everyone responds favorably to being asked the more esoteric questions. I think there is a large divide between what happens in school and in the real world, and that also encourages the problem. Law is considering what is happening in the real world, and if you haven't actually had much experience there, considering the nuances and policy decisions probably isn't in your frame of reference.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 11:21:59 AM
I second the comments on class capabilities, and would add that a number of people, particularly the more linear, engineer-type thinkers wouldn't really get much out of many such discussions and would start zoning out pretty quickly.  Not that it would provide no benefit to them, but if you view the teacher's job in terms of maximizing pedagogical utility for the greatest number of students (I do, I'd expect that many may not view it so simplistically), discussion of this must necessarily be limited in order to cover all of the concepts necessary to build a solid foundation of legal knowledge.

As I understand it, that's pretty much what first year is - the foundation.  After first year, you'll likely get into classes that can expand on what I think are the really interesting questions.  At Yale, I'm sure it'll be a more in-depth experience from the beginning.

Still, it's not like legal ed is the simple memorization of a bunch of facts, and even theories.  Doing the sort of advocacy and counselling that most of us will do in practice, I think it is important to understand the underlying issues behind the principles - otherwise, you'll have trouble even knowing which principles should apply in differing situations.  Teaching students to simply apply rules without thinking of the corresponding reasoning that led to the rule in the first place, which often requires a relevant history lesson, will lead to bad lawyering, and I hope that it's not the way any school teaches.  All holdings may not be reconcilable, but they're certainly not random, nor are they produced in a vacuum.

In looking at each of your disciplines and asking the corresponding deeper questions, I'd say it's varied a lot from question to question.  In crim law, we've spent a lot of time looking at the notions and history that underlie mens rea and differing theories of punishment, (even discussing Foucault for a while).  In terms of literature and narrative, I don't know that I've heard either of those words spoken by a prof since I've been here.  Utility and duress issues have fallen somewhere in between. 

I can't say I agree with your approach to looking at a few cases very closely, unless you'd like for a JD to take 8 years instead of 3; there's simply too much material to really learn everything you need to know and get into that much depth for each case.

Aw, hell. You just became exhibit A of what I'm afraid of, Alamo.  :D
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 11:23:31 AM

have you considered the possibility that there might in fact be value in turning out zombies?

yes, that's a serious question.

I've considered that angle and more. There's always a benefit to someone; my concern is that it's not to the benefit of the students themselves.

Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 11:26:13 AM

have you considered the possibility that there might in fact be value in turning out zombies?

yes, that's a serious question.

I've considered that angle and more. There's always a benefit to someone; my concern is that it's not to the benefit of the students themselves.

you're too altruistic.  most of those students are not you or anyone you know.  screw them.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 11:26:49 AM

I get where you're coming from. I think a big argument at any level of education is that the prior level did not do its job. Where high school and undergrad can at least spend some time remediating, there is a certain level that is assumed in law school that may not actually be there. I do find it appalling that some students seem to completely lack critical thinking skills. My professors do tend to encourage it, but not everyone responds favorably to being asked the more esoteric questions. I think there is a large divide between what happens in school and in the real world, and that also encourages the problem. Law is considering what is happening in the real world, and if you haven't actually had much experience there, considering the nuances and policy decisions probably isn't in your frame of reference.

It's a sad business all around.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 11:33:08 AM

you're too altruistic.  most of those students are not you or anyone you know.  screw them.

I know lots of people, and they're not so different from me. They want to know things, to be able to do things properly. I really believe that. Last year's crowd, for example, had a healthy percentage of people who wanted to help people with law; this year they'll think that they're well on their way to doing so, to being skilled. They'll bandy about "unjust enrichment" and think it means something. Would you want a lawyer like that if you were in trouble? 'course not.

And change your damned name.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 11:36:15 AM

you're too altruistic.  most of those students are not you or anyone you know.  screw them.

I know lots of people, and they're not so different from me. They want to know things, to be able to do things properly. I really believe that. Last year's crowd, for example, had a healthy percentage of people who wanted to help people with law; this year they'll think that they're well on their way to doing so, to being skilled. They'll bandy about "unjust enrichment" and think it means something. Would you want a lawyer like that if you were in trouble? 'course not.

And change your damned name.

of course unjust enrichment means something.  it means that we can sue.  that's what matters, not what matters at the philosophical level, right?  no of course not. 

and if i'm ever in trouble, i fully expect you to help me.

i've had this name for a very long time.  you missed it when i was black.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 11:41:51 AM

you're too altruistic.  most of those students are not you or anyone you know.  screw them.

I know lots of people, and they're not so different from me. They want to know things, to be able to do things properly. I really believe that. Last year's crowd, for example, had a healthy percentage of people who wanted to help people with law; this year they'll think that they're well on their way to doing so, to being skilled. They'll bandy about "unjust enrichment" and think it means something. Would you want a lawyer like that if you were in trouble? 'course not.

And change your damned name.

of course unjust enrichment means something.  it means that we can sue.  that's what matters, not what matters at the philosophical level, right?  no of course not. 

and if i'm ever in trouble, i fully expect you to help me.

i've had this name for a very long time.  you missed it when i was black.

Not at the 'philosophical level'. I mean that when you look at the story of some dude's dealings with another guy and you want to sue for breach, you can say unjust enrichment whenever you want, except that you can't: they don't mean 'unjust enrichment', they mean something else. Law schools should help students identify how to find out what that something else is, and how to appeal to it on behalf of a client. Now, they don't. They say unjust enrichment - 4 elements, here's two examples, and leave it at that. Students say "ah, okay", memorize the 4 elements, the names of the examples, and vomit it out when exam time rolls around. That cannot be learning or skills acquisition, can it?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 11:43:48 AM

you're too altruistic.  most of those students are not you or anyone you know.  screw them.

I know lots of people, and they're not so different from me. They want to know things, to be able to do things properly. I really believe that. Last year's crowd, for example, had a healthy percentage of people who wanted to help people with law; this year they'll think that they're well on their way to doing so, to being skilled. They'll bandy about "unjust enrichment" and think it means something. Would you want a lawyer like that if you were in trouble? 'course not.

And change your damned name.

of course unjust enrichment means something.  it means that we can sue.  that's what matters, not what matters at the philosophical level, right?  no of course not. 

and if i'm ever in trouble, i fully expect you to help me.

i've had this name for a very long time.  you missed it when i was black.

Not at the 'philosophical level'. I mean that when you look at the story of some dude's dealings with another guy and you want to sue for breach, you can say unjust enrichment whenever you want, except that you can't: they don't mean 'unjust enrichment', they mean something else. Law schools should help students identify how to find out what that something else is, and how to appeal to it on behalf of a client. Now, they don't. They say unjust enrichment - 4 elements, here's two examples, and leave it at that. Students say "ah, okay", memorize the 4 elements, the names of the examples, and vomit it out when exam time rolls around. That cannot be learning or skills acquisition, can it?

i just assume you mean philosophical stuff whenever you talk.

and i just remembered that i don't know anything about unjust enrichment because we haven't gotten to it in class yet.  ;)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 11:45:23 AM
i just assume you mean philosophical stuff whenever you talk.

and i just remembered that i don't know anything about unjust enrichment because we haven't gotten to it in class yet.  ;)

I laughed. That was good
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Alamo on October 08, 2006, 11:51:16 AM

you're too altruistic.  most of those students are not you or anyone you know.  screw them.

I know lots of people, and they're not so different from me. They want to know things, to be able to do things properly. I really believe that. Last year's crowd, for example, had a healthy percentage of people who wanted to help people with law; this year they'll think that they're well on their way to doing so, to being skilled. They'll bandy about "unjust enrichment" and think it means something. Would you want a lawyer like that if you were in trouble? 'course not.

And change your damned name.

of course unjust enrichment means something.  it means that we can sue.  that's what matters, not what matters at the philosophical level, right?  no of course not. 

and if i'm ever in trouble, i fully expect you to help me.

i've had this name for a very long time.  you missed it when i was black.

Not at the 'philosophical level'. I mean that when you look at the story of some dude's dealings with another guy and you want to sue for breach, you can say unjust enrichment whenever you want, except that you can't: they don't mean 'unjust enrichment', they mean something else. Law schools should help students identify how to find out what that something else is, and how to appeal to it on behalf of a client. Now, they don't. They say unjust enrichment - 4 elements, here's two examples, and leave it at that. Students say "ah, okay", memorize the 4 elements, the names of the examples, and vomit it out when exam time rolls around. That cannot be learning or skills acquisition, can it?

I think that your concern in this case is valid, but at least in my classes, we're given hypothetical cases that don't mirror those we read in the book.  Just because unjust enrichment contains X# of elements doesn't mean that the elements will be weighed identically in every unjust enrichment case.  Indeed, the fact that it must be "unjust" opens it to criticism from almost any angle.  Only the weakest concepts (impossibility defense doctrine, for example) are defined solely by their examples.  I really doubt that vomiting precedent will get you an A on the exam.  Granted, some people will slack for the semester, buy some commercial outlines right before finals and pass.  I'm not saying that's a good thing, but I have a hard time seeing as to how it can be avoided.  The students who really want to learn it the right way have full opportunity to do so.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 11:53:35 AM
Okay, look at negligence: what is it? Oh, it's not taking a precaution that a reasonable person would take under the circumstance. Oh, okay. What's a reasonable person? Oh, it's someone who wouldn't act negligently. Oh? Umm. Hmm.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 11:56:11 AM
Okay, look at negligence: what is it? Oh, it's not taking a precaution that a reasonable person would take under the circumstance. Oh, okay. What's a reasonable person? Oh, it's someone who wouldn't act negligently. Oh? Umm. Hmm.

this is ridiculous.  a reasonable person is what the judge/jury says a reaonable person is.  there are no standards in law.  it's all made up.  the only parts that are considered "true" are the parts that sound good or are espoused by prestigious thinkers. 

(the cynic's view)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 12:00:31 PM
Okay, look at negligence: what is it? Oh, it's not taking a precaution that a reasonable person would take under the circumstance. Oh, okay. What's a reasonable person? Oh, it's someone who wouldn't act negligently. Oh? Umm. Hmm.

I tend to assume that the reasonable person standard exists to allow judges to enforce their personal preferences while still believing, or at least claiming, to merely be correctly applying the law.

Okay, look at negligence: what is it? Oh, it's not taking a precaution that a reasonable person would take under the circumstance. Oh, okay. What's a reasonable person? Oh, it's someone who wouldn't act negligently. Oh? Umm. Hmm.

this is ridiculous.  a reasonable person is what the judge/jury says a reaonable person is.  there are no standards in law.  it's all made up.  the only parts that are considered "true" are the parts that sound good or are espoused by prestigious thinkers. 

(the cynic's view)

Well, that's what the crits say. But there's more to it than that: they (the judges) are constrained by what they know and what they don't, what they think an court above them will say and won't, what they can imagine, hw they've been told the story of the two people in this conflict, etc. Someone should teach that since that's what matters.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 12:02:22 PM
Well, that's what the crits say. But there's more to it than that: they (the judges) are constrained by what they know and what they don't, what they think an court above them will say and won't, what they can imagine, hw they've been told the story of the two people in this conflict, etc. Someone should teach that since that's what matters.

that's why i said it was the cynic's view.

better narrative, yeah yeah.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 12:04:57 PM
Well, that's what the crits say. But there's more to it than that: they (the judges) are constrained by what they know and what they don't, what they think an court above them will say and won't, what they can imagine, hw they've been told the story of the two people in this conflict, etc. Someone should teach that since that's what matters.

that's why i said it was the cynic's view.

better narrative, yeah yeah.

You think it's an accident that law school kids learn from appellate cases?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 12:08:17 PM
Well, that's what the crits say. But there's more to it than that: they (the judges) are constrained by what they know and what they don't, what they think an court above them will say and won't, what they can imagine, hw they've been told the story of the two people in this conflict, etc. Someone should teach that since that's what matters.

that's why i said it was the cynic's view.

better narrative, yeah yeah.

You think it's an accident that law school kids learn from appellate cases?

i think it's incorrect to believe that law school kids learn.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Alamo on October 08, 2006, 12:08:31 PM
Okay, look at negligence: what is it? Oh, it's not taking a precaution that a reasonable person would take under the circumstance. Oh, okay. What's a reasonable person? Oh, it's someone who wouldn't act negligently. Oh? Umm. Hmm.

I tend to assume that the reasonable person standard exists to allow judges to enforce their personal preferences while still believing, or at least claiming, to merely be correctly applying the law.

Okay, look at negligence: what is it? Oh, it's not taking a precaution that a reasonable person would take under the circumstance. Oh, okay. What's a reasonable person? Oh, it's someone who wouldn't act negligently. Oh? Umm. Hmm.

this is ridiculous.  a reasonable person is what the judge/jury says a reaonable person is.  there are no standards in law.  it's all made up.  the only parts that are considered "true" are the parts that sound good or are espoused by prestigious thinkers. 

(the cynic's view)

Well, that's what the crits say. But there's more to it than that: they (the judges) are constrained by what they know and what they don't, what they think an court above them will say and won't, what they can imagine, hw they've been told the story of the two people in this conflict, etc. Someone should teach that since that's what matters.

Why do you think that this doesn't happen?  All I can say is I don't see it happening at my school - my torts professor is an amazingly cynical, very entertaining fellow who strangely reminds me of Vizzini in the Princess Bride:

(http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:rcp_W4bRoyT0ZM:http://www.uvasportsfanatic.com/vizzini.jpg)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 12:09:06 PM
Oh, and by the way, ya'' should check out a really interesting article on law school class rank that I found a while back:

51 J. Legal Educ. 98 (2001)

It's kinda scary.  :D
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 12:10:57 PM
Why do you think that this doesn't happen?  All I can say is I don't see it happening at my school - my torts professor is an amazingly cynical, very entertaining fellow who strangely reminds me of Vizzini in the Princess Bride:

(http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:rcp_W4bRoyT0ZM:http://www.uvasportsfanatic.com/vizzini.jpg)

Well, hell. What do I know? I just worry and ask questions. When I hear that 'principles' are being taught, I worry more.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Alamo on October 08, 2006, 12:18:58 PM
Why do you think that this doesn't happen?  All I can say is I don't see it happening at my school - my torts professor is an amazingly cynical, very entertaining fellow who strangely reminds me of Vizzini in the Princess Bride:

(http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:rcp_W4bRoyT0ZM:http://www.uvasportsfanatic.com/vizzini.jpg)

Well, hell. What do I know? I just worry and ask questions. When I hear that 'principles' are being taught, I worry more.

I certainly shouldn't imply that there's nothing to worry about, everything is just peachy with the way kids learn the law these days.  I can only speak for my school, and I can only speak from the perspective of someone with a passion for learning it.  What do we do with the tons of kids who go to law school for nothing more than money/prestige/default reasons?  I think that's the really tough question.  You can lead a horse to water . . .
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 12:19:07 PM
Oh, and by the way, ya'' should check out a really interesting article on law school class rank that I found a while back:

51 J. Legal Educ. 98 (2001)

It's kinda scary.  :D

i'm having trouble finding this thing.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 12:26:44 PM

Well, hell. What do I know? I just worry and ask questions. When I hear that 'principles' are being taught, I worry more.

I certainly shouldn't imply that there's nothing to worry about, everything is just peachy with the way kids learn the law these days.  I can only speak for my school, and I can only speak from the perspective of someone with a passion for learning it.  What do we do with the tons of kids who go to law school for nothing more than money/prestige/default reasons?  I think that's the really tough question.  You can lead a horse to water . . .
[/quote]

Hmm, I'll think some more on that
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 12:27:09 PM
Oh, and by the way, ya'' should check out a really interesting article on law school class rank that I found a while back:

51 J. Legal Educ. 98 (2001)

It's kinda scary.  :D

i'm having trouble finding this thing.

I'll email it to you
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 12:37:07 PM
Oh, and by the way, ya'' should check out a really interesting article on law school class rank that I found a while back:

51 J. Legal Educ. 98 (2001)

It's kinda scary.  :D

Fabulous.  This is not going to help motivate me to make my first real attempt at getting decent grades.

 ;D
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 12:44:17 PM
Oh, and by the way, ya'' should check out a really interesting article on law school class rank that I found a while back:

51 J. Legal Educ. 98 (2001)

It's kinda scary.  :D

i'm having trouble finding this thing.

go to westlaw

type "51 j legal educ 98"

it goes to the article

what have they been teaching you kids at columbia?  ::)

::inhales::

::exhales::
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 12:47:27 PM
Oh, and by the way, ya'' should check out a really interesting article on law school class rank that I found a while back:

51 J. Legal Educ. 98 (2001)

It's kinda scary.  :D

i'm having trouble finding this thing.

go to westlaw

type "51 j legal educ 98"

it goes to the article

what have they been teaching you kids at columbia?  ::)

::inhales::

::exhales::

how to breathe, eh?  always an important skill!

you see this?  it's called starting.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 12:48:46 PM
Goes to show, though, "I'm going to be in the top 5" is a risky thing to count on.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 12:50:32 PM
Goes to show, though, "I'm going to be in the top 5" is a risky thing to count on.

dammit, and here i already bet southside a year's income on that one.

it also goes to show that you shouldn't ego-boost people, because it's a risky thing to count on and it'll be your fault when it doesn't happen and he feels completely crushed.

yeah, you.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 12:53:08 PM
Goes to show, though, "I'm going to be in the top 5" is a risky thing to count on.

dammit, and here i already bet southside a year's income on that one.

it also goes to show that you shouldn't ego-boost people, because it's a risky thing to count on and it'll be your fault when it doesn't happen and he feels completely crushed.

yeah, you.

That would be funny as hell. I'd pay a year's salary just see you lose the bet. It would be worth the giggle.  :)

EDIT: and anyway, you don't even have a salary.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 12:54:30 PM
Goes to show, though, "I'm going to be in the top 5" is a risky thing to count on.

dammit, and here i already bet southside a year's income on that one.

it also goes to show that you shouldn't ego-boost people, because it's a risky thing to count on and it'll be your fault when it doesn't happen and he feels completely crushed.

yeah, you.

That would be funny as hell. I'd pay a year's salary just see you lose the bet. It would be worth the giggle.  :)

EDIT: and anyway, you don't even have a salary.

post-graduation salary, obviously. 

and you're an awful, awful human being for saying that.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 12:56:23 PM

post-graduation salary, obviously. 

and you're an awful, awful human being for saying that.

Eh. Humor's important to me. What can I say? At least I'm not a hypocrite about it.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 12:59:54 PM

post-graduation salary, obviously. 

and you're an awful, awful human being for saying that.

Eh. Humor's important to me. What can I say? At least I'm not a hypocrite about it.

well i tell myself that i'm an awful, awful human being at least once a day.  it's good to be okay with it.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 01:02:31 PM
Watch out for that Southside, though.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 01:05:36 PM
Watch out for that Southside, though.

he's just a figment of my imagination.  everywhere i go, he's there also.  when i have questions to ask, he asks them.  i show up with a copy of a magazine, he has the same magazein.  it's really strange.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 01:07:43 PM

he's just a figment of my imagination.  everywhere i go, he's there also.  when i have questions to ask, he asks them.  i show up with a copy of a magazine, he has the same magazein.  it's really strange.

There was a guy -- Stanley J Watson III; everyone just called him Stan -- who ended his LSD career on that theme.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 01:10:51 PM
Eh, what you have to know about breadboy is that he won't commit himself out of a fear of being embarrassed. He'll skim the surface. Sounds bad, but it is WAY less irritating than than the gaggles of people who've come to this board who commmit themselves and are absolutely certain that they're right when a child could pick their arguments apart with ease. Those people make me sad.

I admire your insight. I rarely commit myself to a position, but not out of fear. I am afraid of looking silly, but to only to the extent of you or spaulding. Iíve never heard anyone correctly guess what Iím actually doing here, and that surprises me. Perhaps youíd like to take another whack at it?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 01:12:38 PM

he's just a figment of my imagination.  everywhere i go, he's there also.  when i have questions to ask, he asks them.  i show up with a copy of a magazine, he has the same magazein.  it's really strange.

There was a guy -- Stanley J Watson III; everyone just called him Stan -- who ended his LSD career on that theme.

so you're telling me that i need to kill southside?

how horrible of you.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 01:13:47 PM
Eh, what you have to know about breadboy is that he won't commit himself out of a fear of being embarrassed. He'll skim the surface. Sounds bad, but it is WAY less irritating than than the gaggles of people who've come to this board who commmit themselves and are absolutely certain that they're right when a child could pick their arguments apart with ease. Those people make me sad.

I admire your insight. I rarely commit myself to a position, but not out of fear. I am afraid of looking silly, but to only to the extent of you or spaulding. Iíve never heard anyone correctly guess what Iím actually doing here, and that surprises me. Perhaps youíd like to take another whack at it?


Um. Here where? LSD?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 01:17:18 PM
Um. Here where? LSD?

Where else could I be speaking of?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 01:18:50 PM
Eh, what you have to know about breadboy is that he won't commit himself out of a fear of being embarrassed. He'll skim the surface. Sounds bad, but it is WAY less irritating than than the gaggles of people who've come to this board who commmit themselves and are absolutely certain that they're right when a child could pick their arguments apart with ease. Those people make me sad.

I admire your insight. I rarely commit myself to a position, but not out of fear. I am afraid of looking silly, but to only to the extent of you or spaulding. Iíve never heard anyone correctly guess what Iím actually doing here, and that surprises me. Perhaps youíd like to take another whack at it?

my answer to this question is the same as my answer to most things:

don't know.  don't care.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 01:21:17 PM
Um. Here where? LSD?

Where else could I be speaking of?

A Florida beach town.

I figure that you're in college and that this is your cycle. No? Hard to make out actually, because it looks like you have a regular 9-to-5 schedule, and you commute at 5 on the dot, so..
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 01:24:03 PM
I figure that you're in college and that this is your cycle. No? Hard to make out actually, because it looks like you have a regular 9-to-5 schedule, and you commute at 5 on the dot, so..

Florida: yes
Beach: no
9-5: kinda

Still that isn't what I meant. What goals or purposes do I have for being here? Why do I rarely commit myself to anything in particular?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 01:33:02 PM
0
Florida: yes
Beach: no
9-5: kinda

Still that isn't what I meant. What goals or purposes do I have for being here? Why do I rarely commit myself to anything in particular?

Killing time like the rest of us. You're not trying to decide whether law school is for you because you're set on that -- you have too many lawyer role models, the money's too good and too easy, etc. You're not doing a UG research paper on us. Doesn't leave a whole lot of options. Give me a clue.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 01:37:30 PM
Killing time like the rest of us. You're not trying to decide whether law school is for you because you're set on that -- you have too many lawyer role models, the money's too good and too easy, etc. You're not doing a UG research paper on us. Doesn't leave a whole lot of options. Give me a clue.

I am not killing time, and if I give you a clue I'll probably give one of the reasons away.

Clue: I'm glad you're back.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 01:45:49 PM
Killing time like the rest of us. You're not trying to decide whether law school is for you because you're set on that -- you have too many lawyer role models, the money's too good and too easy, etc. You're not doing a UG research paper on us. Doesn't leave a whole lot of options. Give me a clue.

I am not killing time, and if I give you a clue I'll probably give one of the reasons away.

Clue: I'm glad you're back.

You have a man-crush on Stan and you think know that I'm his other account?

No, no idea. Maybe I should mull it over.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 01:55:53 PM
Maybe I should mull it over.

Mabye you should. One reason in particular is the unspoken idea behind a lot of LSDing.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 02:05:54 PM
Maybe I should mull it over.

Mabye you should. One reason in particular is the unspoken idea behind a lot of LSDing.

Oh, I doubt that there is any such thing.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 02:10:40 PM

He's got a crush on you.  He's here to find a suitably intelligent mate.  Isn't it obvious?  ::)

 :D

Breadboy will grow on you. You'll see. He's not as bad as he seems at first or even second blush.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 02:21:06 PM
He's here to find a suitably intelligent mate.  Isn't it obvious?  ::)

I've already got one of those, thanks.  :)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 02:24:25 PM

I actually don't have the problem with him that a lot of people seem to.  He seems to not be a fan of me, however -- which admittedly probably speaks well of his judgment.  :D

Eh, it's not really his thing to like or dislike. He figures you're a good foil, so he'll poke you when you're around.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 02:43:30 PM
Eh, it's not really his thing to like or dislike. He figures you're a good foil, so he'll poke you when you're around.

My sense is that the reason he in general refuses to advocate any position himself is that he thinks he's "testing" us, as it were -- and that some (you, Miss P) have passed his test and others (myself, J) have not.  I could be wrong, though.

He's learning, not testing. Just seems like he's testing.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 02:47:20 PM
He's learning, not testing. Just seems like he's testing.

There's that perception again. Brava.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 02:48:32 PM
He's learning, not testing. Just seems like he's testing.

There's that perception again. Brava.

I'm just channeling Miss P is all.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 02:52:00 PM
I'm just channeling Miss P is all.

As much as I love Miss P, I don't think she would have picked up on that.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 02:54:36 PM
I'm just channeling Miss P is all.

As much as I love Miss P, I don't think she would have picked up on that.

Eh, one of your glaring blindspots is that you underestimate Miss P. She and HD are probably the cleverest people who have ever posted on this board.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Elephant Lee on October 08, 2006, 02:58:05 PM
He's sizing up his future competition. Many of his polls seem directed at that. He's not here to prove himself, which is why he pokes and prods to see what others have to say, but rarely says much. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 03:02:27 PM
He's sizing up his future competition. Many of his polls seem directed at that. He's not here to prove himself, which is why he pokes and prods to see what others have to say, but rarely says much. 

Congratulations to you; I've apparently never given you the credit you deserve.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 03:03:01 PM
He's sizing up his future competition. Many of his polls seem directed at that. He's not here to prove himself, which is why he pokes and prods to see what others have to say, but rarely says much. 

Congratulations to you; I've apparently never given you the credit you deserve.

Oh, stop.  :D
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 03:03:55 PM
Oh, stop.  :D

I'm still surprised you didn't get that first.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 03:05:39 PM
Oh, stop.  :D

I'm still surprised you didn't get that first.

C'mon, now. Be reasonable. What competition are you talking about?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 03:21:41 PM
I've apparently never given you the credit you deserve.
C'mon, now. Be reasonable. What competition are you talking about?

Some of those that come here will eventually be competing with me in one respect or another. Those who don't professionally may in law school, and those who don't in law school provide interesting archetypes for fellow classmates and business partners.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 03:22:06 PM
Wait, didn't I say you were testing people and that got shot down?  What's the difference?

Quite a bit.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 03:25:11 PM
I've apparently never given you the credit you deserve.
C'mon, now. Be reasonable. What competition are you talking about?

Some of those that come here will eventually be competing with me in one respect or another. Those who don't professionally may in law school, and those who don't in law school provide interesting archetypes for fellow classmates and business partners.

So, you think I'm here to get a sense of 'the competition'? Wow. That's really way off.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: SCgrad on October 08, 2006, 03:25:58 PM
Eh, it's not really his thing to like or dislike. He figures you're a good foil, so he'll poke you when you're around.

My sense is that the reason he in general refuses to advocate any position himself is that he thinks he's "testing" us, as it were -- and that some (you, Miss P) have passed his test and others (myself, J) have not.  I could be wrong, though.

I agree with this.  He reminds me of another poster minus the baby talk.  You would never convince him that anything he believes is even questionably not true.  Like Julie, he seems to be trying to "win" arguments, but doesn't go about it in the conventional (law or prelaw) way of trying to iron out a logically structured argument.  I'm not saying it is illogical, it is just not really an argument, but a statement, sometimes camoflauged in the form of questions.  Julie can piss off conservatives so easily with this method, and BB can do the same to liberals.  Some evidence I would put forth is his harping on things of wealth and prestige.  Expensive things and things that only elitest do seem to the topic of almost all of BB posts that are not based on this Julie Fern-esk arguing style.  Then, his other posts revolve around pushing republicanism and conversativism.  He asks what we think of the market hitting a high.  He asks about this Columbia protest, etc.  I think he had something about Clinton on Fox News.  He starts lots of topics and they all are geared towards bashing the left.  He may not be so obvious about it, but it seems that way to me.  Hastart makes some ridiculous claim that the page scandal is a left wing conspiracy launched by Bill Clinton.  Does BB make a thread about that.  No.  I don't blame people for taking stands and being radical or whatever (not saying BB is radical), but this vague bull socratic type way of going about it is kinda female private part if you ask me.  It's as if you're not willing to stand by what you think, so to avoid actually having to defend your beliefs you throw them out there in this disguise and engage in this game of wits to further avoid an honest attempt at proving your point or having it proven wrong.

Come to think of it, Stan does this too (I might do it some too  :-[ )

I think this is why J might despise BB's arguments and style.  I would say they are on complete opposite sides of the arguing spectrum.  J flatly takes a stand and argues as clearly as his verbose vocab will allow him to his points.  I think J might even admit he was wrong if his argument were shut down (in his eyes), but that probably just doesn't happen.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 03:29:07 PM
Eh, it's not really his thing to like or dislike. He figures you're a good foil, so he'll poke you when you're around.

My sense is that the reason he in general refuses to advocate any position himself is that he thinks he's "testing" us, as it were -- and that some (you, Miss P) have passed his test and others (myself, J) have not.  I could be wrong, though.

I agree with this.  He reminds me of another poster minus the baby talk.  You would never convince him that anything he believes is even questionably not true.  Like Julie, he seems to be trying to "win" arguments, but doesn't go about it in the conventional (law or prelaw) way of trying to iron out a logically structured argument.  I'm not saying it is illogical, it is just not really an argument, but a statement, sometimes camoflauged in the form of questions.  Julie can piss off conservatives so easily with this method, and BB can do the same to liberals.  Some evidence I would put forth is his harping on things of wealth and prestige.  Expensive things and things that only elitest do seem to the topic of almost all of BB posts that are not based on this Julie Fern-esk arguing style.  Then, his other posts revolve around pushing republicanism and conversativism.  He asks what we think of the market hitting a high.  He asks about this Columbia protest, etc.  I think he had something about Clinton on Fox News.  He starts lots of topics and they all are geared towards bashing the left.  He may not be so obvious about it, but it seems that way to me.  Hastart makes some ridiculous claim that the page scandal is a left wing conspiracy launched by Bill Clinton.  Does BB make a thread about that.  No.  I don't blame people for taking stands and being radical or whatever (not saying BB is radical), but this vague bull socratic type way of going about it is kinda female private part if you ask me.  It's as if you're not willing to stand by what you think, so to avoid actually having to defend your beliefs you throw them out there in this disguise and engage in this game of wits to further avoid an honest attempt at proving your point or having it proven wrong.

Come to think of it, Stan does this too (I might do it some too  :-[ )

I think this is why J might despise BB's arguments and style.  I would say they are on complete opposite sides of the arguing spectrum.  J flatly takes a stand and argues as clearly as his verbose vocab will allow him to his points.  I think J might even admit he was wrong if his argument were shut down (in his eyes), but that probably just doesn't happen.

Eh.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: SCgrad on October 08, 2006, 03:30:21 PM
Eh, it's not really his thing to like or dislike. He figures you're a good foil, so he'll poke you when you're around.

My sense is that the reason he in general refuses to advocate any position himself is that he thinks he's "testing" us, as it were -- and that some (you, Miss P) have passed his test and others (myself, J) have not.  I could be wrong, though.

I agree with this.  He reminds me of another poster minus the baby talk.  You would never convince him that anything he believes is even questionably not true.  Like Julie, he seems to be trying to "win" arguments, but doesn't go about it in the conventional (law or prelaw) way of trying to iron out a logically structured argument.  I'm not saying it is illogical, it is just not really an argument, but a statement, sometimes camoflauged in the form of questions.  Julie can piss off conservatives so easily with this method, and BB can do the same to liberals.  Some evidence I would put forth is his harping on things of wealth and prestige.  Expensive things and things that only elitest do seem to the topic of almost all of BB posts that are not based on this Julie Fern-esk arguing style.  Then, his other posts revolve around pushing republicanism and conversativism.  He asks what we think of the market hitting a high.  He asks about this Columbia protest, etc.  I think he had something about Clinton on Fox News.  He starts lots of topics and they all are geared towards bashing the left.  He may not be so obvious about it, but it seems that way to me.  Hastart makes some ridiculous claim that the page scandal is a left wing conspiracy launched by Bill Clinton.  Does BB make a thread about that.  No.  I don't blame people for taking stands and being radical or whatever (not saying BB is radical), but this vague bull socratic type way of going about it is kinda female private part if you ask me.  It's as if you're not willing to stand by what you think, so to avoid actually having to defend your beliefs you throw them out there in this disguise and engage in this game of wits to further avoid an honest attempt at proving your point or having it proven wrong.

Come to think of it, Stan does this too (I might do it some too  :-[ )

I think this is why J might despise BB's arguments and style.  I would say they are on complete opposite sides of the arguing spectrum.  J flatly takes a stand and argues as clearly as his verbose vocab will allow him to his points.  I think J might even admit he was wrong if his argument were shut down (in his eyes), but that probably just doesn't happen.

Eh.

right on que
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 03:39:07 PM
Eh, it's not really his thing to like or dislike. He figures you're a good foil, so he'll poke you when you're around.

My sense is that the reason he in general refuses to advocate any position himself is that he thinks he's "testing" us, as it were -- and that some (you, Miss P) have passed his test and others (myself, J) have not.  I could be wrong, though.

I agree with this.  He reminds me of another poster minus the baby talk.  You would never convince him that anything he believes is even questionably not true.  Like Julie, he seems to be trying to "win" arguments, but doesn't go about it in the conventional (law or prelaw) way of trying to iron out a logically structured argument.  I'm not saying it is illogical, it is just not really an argument, but a statement, sometimes camoflauged in the form of questions.  Julie can piss off conservatives so easily with this method, and BB can do the same to liberals.  Some evidence I would put forth is his harping on things of wealth and prestige.  Expensive things and things that only elitest do seem to the topic of almost all of BB posts that are not based on this Julie Fern-esk arguing style.  Then, his other posts revolve around pushing republicanism and conversativism.  He asks what we think of the market hitting a high.  He asks about this Columbia protest, etc.  I think he had something about Clinton on Fox News.  He starts lots of topics and they all are geared towards bashing the left.  He may not be so obvious about it, but it seems that way to me.  Hastart makes some ridiculous claim that the page scandal is a left wing conspiracy launched by Bill Clinton.  Does BB make a thread about that.  No.  I don't blame people for taking stands and being radical or whatever (not saying BB is radical), but this vague bull socratic type way of going about it is kinda female private part if you ask me.  It's as if you're not willing to stand by what you think, so to avoid actually having to defend your beliefs you throw them out there in this disguise and engage in this game of wits to further avoid an honest attempt at proving your point or having it proven wrong.

Come to think of it, Stan does this too (I might do it some too  :-[ )

I think this is why J might despise BB's arguments and style.  I would say they are on complete opposite sides of the arguing spectrum.  J flatly takes a stand and argues as clearly as his verbose vocab will allow him to his points.  I think J might even admit he was wrong if his argument were shut down (in his eyes), but that probably just doesn't happen.

Well, yeah. That's what rubs people the wrong way about bb. But the small-town aspirational   conservative thing -- the quality, prestige, Dow, classical music, etc -- is par for the course, no? Ironically, if you put him on the couch, I'd bet that it's the small-town petit-bourgeois thing that he wants to get away from the most. I like to think that he's aware of that irony and works with it.

His arguing style is similar to the dearly departed Stan's, but Stan adjusts, like a wrestler (damn asian), even if he doesn't come out and ever assert something in the way that J does. I hought bb believed that stuff he was saying, and despised some things that he said to Annabel, but really, but really, I think he's just curious and likes conversation. And, as we all know, once you've built a rep, it's hard to shake.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 08, 2006, 03:43:16 PM
Red., a few pages back you said something very silly, but I do appreciate it.

Had I been around, I could have told you why Breadboy is here, too, but it would have left me feeling rather cynical.  (Also, it does put a rather unfortunate Machiavellian spin on his recent inducements for me to transfer up and/or go for BigLaw.  :D)  Anyway, I like him rather well, despite my frustrations with his style of argumentation (which I do believe SC captured fairly well, though he overlooked the occasional bit of insight or true engagement Bb chooses to offer up to LSD).  I think people are way too hard on him.  I have forgiven him for the few transgrassions I witnessed, and I don't like the idea of conflating those with his general conservative, elitist posture.  (EDIT: Bb, if you are reading this, I think we could call this a mixed metaphor - transgressions and postures.  I'm not sure.  I would definitely say that it is catachretic.)

And Stan, since you apparently have a deep connection with Southside, please curse him out for not returning my email.  JK.  Kinda.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 03:46:43 PM
Eh, I'm not convinced that he's conservative in any true sense.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 08, 2006, 03:47:57 PM
Eh, I'm not convinced that he's conservative in any true sense.

I agree.  I called it a "posture," after all.  I do believe he wants different things from life than I want.  Than you want, probably, too.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 03:49:39 PM
Had I been around, I could have told you why Breadboy is here, too, but it would have left me feeling rather cynical.  (Also, it does put a rather unfortunate Machiavellian spin on his recent inducements for me to transfer up and/or go for BigLaw.  :D)  Anyway, I like him rather well, despite my frustrations with his style of argumentation (which I do believe SC captured fairly well, though he overlooked the occasional bit of insight or true engagement Bb chooses to offer up to LSD).  I think people are way too hard on him.  I have forgiven him for the few transgrassions I witnessed, and I don't like the idea of conflating those with his general conservative, elitist posture.

Iím not being completely Machiavellian. I honestly think both you and red would be happier with the kind of power your skills suggest you should have.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 03:50:13 PM


Iím not being completely Machiavellian. I honestly think both you and red would be happier with the kind of power your skills suggest you should have.

lol
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 03:50:48 PM
Eh, I'm not convinced that he's conservative in any true sense.

You're on quite the role today. Although I think I've mentioned this before so it probably shouldn't count.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 03:50:58 PM

I agree.  I called it a "posture," after all.  I do believe he wants different things from life than I want.  Than you want, probably, too.

"Posture" is right, but at least it's self-conscious.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 08, 2006, 03:52:27 PM


Iím not being completely Machiavellian. I honestly think both you and red would be happier with the kind of power your skills suggest you should have.

lol

Seriously.  If it wouldn't look so damned conceited, I would definitely quote this in my sig.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Elephant Lee on October 08, 2006, 03:58:54 PM
I think people are way too hard on him.
As an LSD consumer (remember that lurk:postcount forumla? Mine was through the roof), I've certainly appreciated his contributions during what has been a dry spell on the board. He generally gets people to talk about something interesting. The condescension I could do without, although that's probably a reaction to being frequently attacked. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: SCgrad on October 08, 2006, 04:01:17 PM
Yeah, BB is not the same in my book as he was when he came on.  If he hadn't "adjusted" I would have just stopped reading his posts like I have with other posters.  I just don't like the style and I think he takes it to the extreme.  I didn't like it about Stan, but I think he more frequently departed from it to make a J type argument.  If BB has actually done this, I have not seen it. I may have incorrectly conveyed that he is not making an argument.  I think he is making arguments, perhaps I think that more than others think that.  I just think his arguments are in disguise (perhaps as a defense to keep himself from ending up in a situation like he was in when he first showed up).  I wish they weren't.  But then again I wish when someone said something stupid they could just say "my bad, dog" and that would be it, but apparantly that also is not the case.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 04:03:42 PM
But then again I wish when someone said something stupid they could just say "my bad, dog" and that would be it,

If that ever happens, it means that the apocalypse is coming.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 04:04:47 PM
Well, yeah. That's what rubs people the wrong way about bb. But the small-town aspirational   conservative thing -- the quality, prestige, Dow, classical music, etc -- is par for the course, no? Ironically, if you put him on the couch, I'd bet that it's the small-town petit-bourgeois thing that he wants to get away from the most. I like to think that he's aware of that irony and works with it.

I do have aspirations (not particularly conservative oneís mind you) greater than my background. I really do listen almost exclusively to classical music, abstain from any alcohol but wine, scotch or brandy and spend way more time thinking than is probably good for me. I donít do it to look good or important, but because I find each item more meaningful than other available options. The thing is, Iím honest about my elitism. ;)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 04:06:50 PM
Seriously, that's not a nice thing to say. You know what I mean? My fault for bringing it up, but please delete that part.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 04:13:13 PM
Seriously, that's not a nice thing to say. You know what I mean? My fault for bringing it up, but please delete that part.

I know exactly what you mean. It is incredibly mean, which is why no one has said it or will say it. Paradoxically, itís the niceties of the well-wishers rather than ďnot niceĒ comments like mine that will probably do the most damage to her in the future. My past comments were meant to help and sometimes, as the clichť goes, the truth hurts.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: SCgrad on October 08, 2006, 04:15:32 PM
Seriously, that's not a nice thing to say. You know what I mean? My fault for bringing it up, but please delete that part.

I know exactly what you mean. It is incredibly mean, which is why no one has said it or will say it. Paradoxically, it’s the niceties of the well-wishers rather than “not nice” comments like mine that will probably do the most damage to her in the future. My past comments were meant to help and sometimes, as the clichť goes, the truth hurts.

Why do you feel you are qualified to make this statement?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 04:16:43 PM
Thanks, bb
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 04:27:14 PM
The thing about law school is that it doesn't require a whole lot of intelligence or insight, just the ability to focus and some organizational skills.

Going a top law school has almost nothing to do with the education youíll receive or oneís aptness for it. I have almost no doubt that almost everyone at Yale will graduate and go on to future success.

Quote
The thing about the LSAT is that it doesn't tell you very much if anything about how much of any of those things a person has.

It does tell you something, and that isnít the sole criterion I based my judgment on.

Quote
The thing about Yale is that there are no grades and everyone who emerges from there has had the benefit of a tremendous education and will do very well in life. 

I agree, but I think things could be better for all parties involved if events worked out differently.

Quote
The thing about me is that I'm practically white, if you didn't know that already (which I thought you did).

I honestly thought you were black, not that that really matters. Iím just trying to finally convince red that the pieces of advice I offered had nothing to do with race. Oh, and what exactly do you mean? I really hope you donít mean youíre acting white, as thatís one conception I think should be stricken from popular discourse as soon as possible
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 04:28:46 PM
Why do you feel you are qualified to make this statement?

Probably the same thing that prompted your posting and prevented you from dismissing my assertion out of hand.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 04:30:14 PM
Thanks, bb

You're welcome.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 08, 2006, 04:37:17 PM
Quote
The thing about me is that I'm practically white, if you didn't know that already (which I thought you did).

I honestly thought you were black, not that that really matters. Iím just trying to finally convince red that the pieces of advice I offered had nothing to do with race. Oh, and what exactly do you mean? I really hope you donít mean youíre acting white, as thatís one conception I think should be stricken from popular discourse as soon as possible

No, no, I mean that I am effectively white and white-identified.  Half European, half close-enough.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 04:44:32 PM
Quote
I'd bet that it's the small-town petit-bourgeois thing that he wants to get away from the most.

On second thought after looking at the IRS income distributions again, no, Iím very much from the upper class (Top 5% starts at 150k a year Top 1% at a little under 300). My aspirations are still a lot higher than where I came from, but still.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 04:45:32 PM
Yeah, BB is not the same in my book as he was when he came on.  If he hadn't "adjusted" I would have just stopped reading his posts like I have with other posters.  I just don't like the style and I think he takes it to the extreme.  I didn't like it about Stan, but I think he more frequently departed from it to make a J type argument.  If BB has actually done this, I have not seen it. I may have incorrectly conveyed that he is not making an argument.  I think he is making arguments, perhaps I think that more than others think that.  I just think his arguments are in disguise (perhaps as a defense to keep himself from ending up in a situation like he was in when he first showed up).  I wish they weren't.  But then again I wish when someone said something stupid they could just say "my bad, dog" and that would be it, but apparantly that also is not the case.

woah, I take things to the extreme?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 04:45:49 PM
Quote
I'd bet that it's the small-town petit-bourgeois thing that he wants to get away from the most.

On second thought after looking at the IRS income distributions again, no, Iím very much from the upper class (Top 5% starts at 150k a year Top 1% at a little under 300). My aspirations are still a lot higher than where I came from, but still.


LMAO. Judging class by income is the definition of petit-bourgeois.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 04:46:30 PM

woah, I take things to the extreme?

Extremely reasonable. How about that?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 04:48:04 PM

woah, I take things to the extreme?

Extremely reasonable. How about that?

actually i'm curious how i am extreme.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 04:49:14 PM
Where does it say that you are?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 04:52:28 PM
LMAO. Judging class by income is the definition of petit-bourgeois.

lol, nice comeback. I'm speaking in an economic sense and you know that. There are other components of "class," but this is most often the defining one in every sitution.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 04:54:32 PM
Yeah, BB is not the same in my book as he was when he came on.  If he hadn't "adjusted" I would have just stopped reading his posts like I have with other posters.  I just don't like the style and I think he takes it to the extreme.  I didn't like it about Stan, but I think he more frequently departed from it to make a J type argument.  If BB has actually done this, I have not seen it. I may have incorrectly conveyed that he is not making an argument.  I think he is making arguments, perhaps I think that more than others think that.  I just think his arguments are in disguise (perhaps as a defense to keep himself from ending up in a situation like he was in when he first showed up).  I wish they weren't.  But then again I wish when someone said something stupid they could just say "my bad, dog" and that would be it, but apparantly that also is not the case.

here.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 04:57:16 PM
LMAO. Judging class by income is the definition of petit-bourgeois.

lol, nice comeback. I'm speaking in an economic sense and you know that. There are other components of "class," but this is most often the defining one in every sitution.

No, it's really not. Maybe I'm too "British", but class and economic stratum rarely intersect. Is Donald Trump upper class, for example? I don't think so.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 04:58:47 PM
Yeah, BB is not the same in my book as he was when he came on.  If he hadn't "adjusted" I would have just stopped reading his posts like I have with other posters.  I just don't like the style and I think he takes it to the extreme.  I didn't like it about Stan, but I think he more frequently departed from it to make a J type argument.  If BB has actually done this, I have not seen it. I may have incorrectly conveyed that he is not making an argument.  I think he is making arguments, perhaps I think that more than others think that.  I just think his arguments are in disguise (perhaps as a defense to keep himself from ending up in a situation like he was in when he first showed up).  I wish they weren't.  But then again I wish when someone said something stupid they could just say "my bad, dog" and that would be it, but apparantly that also is not the case.

here.

Well, SC will have to spell it out, but seems obvious enough to me. Extreme moderation is still extreme, no?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 04:59:53 PM
LMAO. Judging class by income is the definition of petit-bourgeois.

lol, nice comeback. I'm speaking in an economic sense and you know that. There are other components of "class," but this is most often the defining one in every sitution.

No, it's really not. Maybe I'm too "British", but class and economic stratum rarely intersect. Is Donald Trump upper class, for example? I don't think so.

okay, i'm disgusted by that suggestion.

my nice guy act you mean?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 05:03:11 PM
LMAO. Judging class by income is the definition of petit-bourgeois.

lol, nice comeback. I'm speaking in an economic sense and you know that. There are other components of "class," but this is most often the defining one in every sitution.

No, it's really not. Maybe I'm too "British", but class and economic stratum rarely intersect. Is Donald Trump upper class, for example? I don't think so.

okay, i'm disgusted by that suggestion.

my nice guy act you mean?

You quoted the wrong post. Sheesh, n00b.

The way that you present "your" political stance, not your nice guy act.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 05:03:15 PM
No, it's really not. Maybe I'm too "British", but class and economic stratum rarely intersect. Is Donald Trump upper class, for example? I don't think so.

Oh I agree with you completely as far as Britain in concerned. Class means everything there, whereas in the U.S. "class" doesn't really exist outside of the economic sense. We're pretty much classless compared to Western Europe.

Bloody Chavs.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 05:06:30 PM
No, it's really not. Maybe I'm too "British", but class and economic stratum rarely intersect. Is Donald Trump upper class, for example? I don't think so.

Oh I agree with you completely as far as Britain in concerned. Class means everything there, whereas in the U.S. "class" doesn't really exist outside of the economic sense. We're pretty much classless compared to Western Europe.

Not at all true. That's a myth, and I'm not sure why people continue to believe it despite what they know from their own common sense and common knowledge. Upper West side is not Upper East Side; Mainline outside Philly is not Pittsburgh; Ole Miss isn't Mississippi State; Jack and Jill isn't inner Detroit. People don't move up or down the class system here any faster than they do in Europe.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 05:10:18 PM
despite what they know from their own common sense and common knowledge.

You're relying on those a bit to much these days.

Quote
People don't move up or down the class system here any faster than they do in Europe.

Sure they do. We do have class differences, but they are not significant (and should thus not be termed "class") enough to determine much of anything these days.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 05:13:36 PM
LMAO. Judging class by income is the definition of petit-bourgeois.

lol, nice comeback. I'm speaking in an economic sense and you know that. There are other components of "class," but this is most often the defining one in every sitution.

No, it's really not. Maybe I'm too "British", but class and economic stratum rarely intersect. Is Donald Trump upper class, for example? I don't think so.

okay, i'm disgusted by that suggestion.

my nice guy act you mean?

You quoted the wrong post. Sheesh, n00b.

The way that you present "your" political stance, not your nice guy act.

actually, i meant that i was disgusted by the trump thing, then went on to ask about the nice guy act.  i have a political stance now?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 05:14:58 PM
Sure they do. We do have class differences, but they are not significant (and should thus not be termed "class") enough to determine much of anything these days.

Why, then, does redneck culture (i.e. class) irritate you?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 05:15:39 PM

actually, i meant that i was disgusted by the trump thing, then went on to ask about the nice guy act.  i have a political stance now?

See? that's extreme.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 05:17:07 PM
Why, then, does redneck culture (i.e. class) irritate you?

You'll have to be more specific as to what you're fishing for.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 05:17:56 PM

actually, i meant that i was disgusted by the trump thing, then went on to ask about the nice guy act.  i have a political stance now?

See? that's extreme.

which part?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 05:22:33 PM
Why, then, does redneck culture (i.e. class) irritate you?

You'll have to be more specific as to what you're fishing for.

What the Europeans call class, we call culture. The redneck culture is a class thing; so's the Queens-italian-with-the-bling, the people who go to Atlantic City on a Saturday night, the ones who go to Panama City for spring break, etc.

You going to make me do a search for your anti-redneck rant?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 05:23:09 PM
Why, then, does redneck culture (i.e. class) irritate you?

You'll have to be more specific as to what you're fishing for.

What the Europeans call class, we call culture. The redneck culture is a class thing; so's the Queens-italian-with-the-bling, the people who go to Atlantic City on a Saturday night, the ones who go to Panama City for spring break, etc.

You going to make me do a search for your anti-redneck rant?

oh oh, what class am i?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on October 08, 2006, 05:24:21 PM
No, it's really not. Maybe I'm too "British", but class and economic stratum rarely intersect. Is Donald Trump upper class, for example? I don't think so.

Oh I agree with you completely as far as Britain in concerned. Class means everything there, whereas in the U.S. "class" doesn't really exist outside of the economic sense. We're pretty much classless compared to Western Europe.

Not at all true. That's a myth, and I'm not sure why people continue to believe it despite what they know from their own common sense and common knowledge. Upper West side is not Upper East Side; Mainline outside Philly is not Pittsburgh; Ole Miss isn't Mississippi State; Jack and Jill isn't inner Detroit. People don't move up or down the class system here any faster than they do in Europe.

I agree with this, especially considering the US is much more stratified than European countries. There are plenty of people who have a limited chance of doing well in college because the public education they get in their small town or inner city school isn't up to snuff with the education that kids in private school get. Plus, American universities are so expensive that even if people do have the proper preparation and could excel, many of them cannot afford an exclusive private school education.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 05:24:42 PM

oh oh, what class am i?

Hell, you don't need me to tell you again, do you? UES, remember? That's when you decided to like me. Very self-serving.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 05:26:01 PM
In the spirit of actually contributing something useful for the lurkers and whatnot, here's a link to something introductory:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4662456
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 05:27:44 PM

oh oh, what class am i?

Hell, you don't need me to tell you again, do you? UES, remember? That's when you decided to like me. Very self-serving.

actually i really started warming up to you after the harvard ding.  very self-serving.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 05:29:32 PM
What the Europeans call class, we call culture. The redneck culture is a class thing; so's the Queens-italian-with-the-bling, the people who go to Atlantic City on a Saturday night, the ones who go to Panama City for spring break, etc.

Yes, I dislike the redneck culture immensely, but I wasnít really referring to culture, only class in an economic sense. Culture is much more stagnant than class and often stays ingrained in people hundreds if not thousands of years.

What exactly are you looking for? Do you want to have a class/culture discussion?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 05:29:34 PM

oh oh, what class am i?

Hell, you don't need me to tell you again, do you? UES, remember? That's when you decided to like me. Very self-serving.

actually i really started warming up to you after the harvard ding.  very self-serving.

What a cheap hooker you are
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 05:33:52 PM
Yes, I dislike the redneck culture immensely, but I wasnít really referring to culture, only class in an economic sense. Culture is much more stagnant than class and often stays ingrained in people hundreds if not thousands of years.

What exactly are you looking for? Do you want to have a class/culture discussion?


Dude. That's what I'm saying. Class isn't your bank account. That's why they have the word rich instead. That kind of aspirational thinking is itself a class-based tic. If I beome a banker, or if I earn 300K, I'll be middle class. No, not really. You'll be a rich prole. The UES people would be appalled at the thought of their daughter marrying you, just as they would be appalled at the thought of a blinged-out Diddy type. That's the way things are. Money's one thing, social class is another thing. See what I mean? In England, lots of chavs earn more than lots of middle class people, but they're still chavs. Same thing. But, and here's the important part, they think that theyre middle class. They're not.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 05:35:39 PM
Yes, I dislike the redneck culture immensely, but I wasnít really referring to culture, only class in an economic sense. Culture is much more stagnant than class and often stays ingrained in people hundreds if not thousands of years.

What exactly are you looking for? Do you want to have a class/culture discussion?


Dude. That's what I'm saying. Class isn't your bank account. That's why they have the word rich instead. That kind of aspirational thinking is itself a class-based tic. If I beome a banker, or if I earn 300K, I'll be middle class. No, not really. You'll be a rich prole. The UES people would be appalled at the thought of their daughter marrying you, just as they would be appalled at the thought of a blinged-out Diddy type. That's the way things are. Money's one thing, social class is another thing. See what I mean? In England, lots of chavs earn more than lots of middle class people, but they're still chavs. Same thing. But, and here's the important part, they think that theyre middle class. They're not.

Are we really arguing about whose definition of class is correct?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 05:37:33 PM

oh oh, what class am i?

Hell, you don't need me to tell you again, do you? UES, remember? That's when you decided to like me. Very self-serving.

actually i really started warming up to you after the harvard ding.  very self-serving.

What a cheap hooker you are

well i was just touched, that's all. 

actually, you just got me when my defenses were down.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 05:40:44 PM

Are we really arguing about whose definition of class is correct?

No, not "correct": I'm saying that what "class" is to you depends on what class you're in. If you're petit bourgeois, then class = money; if you're blueblood old money, "class" is lineage. See what I mean? How you talk about class says what class you're in. So, the Mattress King who yells on informercials thinks of himself as upper middle class because he makes a lot of money; other people see the bling arrayed on his chest hair, the heavy gold watch, and think that he's not and never will be middle class. Think about it.

And with that, I'm out.  :)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 05:41:44 PM

well i was just touched, that's all. 

actually, you just got me when my defenses were down.

You should always keep 'em up. That is the lesson.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 05:42:27 PM
In the spirit of actually contributing something useful for the lurkers and whatnot, here's a link to something introductory:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4662456

While that may be useful when discussing blacks in particular it doesn't really work for the overall topic. Just substitute Irish, Korean, Japanese, or Scottish for black and youíll get very different results. And this doesnít even hint at the problems Europeans are now having with their new poor.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 08, 2006, 05:43:50 PM

well i was just touched, that's all. 

actually, you just got me when my defenses were down.

You should always keep 'em up. That is the lesson.

I learned that just a little too late.  :'(
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 05:44:15 PM
No, not "correct": I'm saying that what "class" is to you depends on what class you're in. If you're petit bourgeois, then class = money; if you're blueblood old money, "class" is lineage. See what I mean? How you talk about class says what class you're in. So, the Mattress King who yells on informercials thinks of himself as upper middle class because he makes a lot of money; other people see the bling arrayed on his chest hair, the heavy gold watch, and think that he's not and never will be middle class. Think about it.

Iíd still label that as culture more often than class, but I more or less agree with your characterizations of different cultures.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 08, 2006, 05:45:07 PM
No, not "correct": I'm saying that what "class" is to you depends on what class you're in. If you're petit bourgeois, then class = money; if you're blueblood old money, "class" is lineage. See what I mean? How you talk about class says what class you're in. So, the Mattress King who yells on informercials thinks of himself as upper middle class because he makes a lot of money; other people see the bling arrayed on his chest hair, the heavy gold watch, and think that he's not and never will be middle class. Think about it.

Iíd still label that as culture more often than class, but I more or less agree with your characterizations of different cultures.


I'm watching this development with alarm
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 08, 2006, 05:46:21 PM
I'm watching this development with alarm

lol, I only meant with regard to that post. Did you catch my shift back to culture?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: H4CS on October 09, 2006, 12:01:58 AM
I am afraid of looking silly, but to only to the extent of you or spaulding.

I correct you once on Shumpeter and you fear me?  After all we've been through?  I can't go back, Bread, not anymore, not the way I feel now.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on October 09, 2006, 12:19:16 AM
I am afraid of looking silly, but to only to the extent of you or spaulding.

I correct you once on Shumpeter and you fear me?  After all we've been through?  I can't go back, Bread, not anymore, not the way I feel now.

Where has your hilarious ass been for the past few days? I had assumed you were trying to find a minuteman in a helicopter gunship.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: H4CS on October 09, 2006, 12:20:08 AM
Where has your hilarious ass been for the past few days? I had assumed you were trying to find a minuteman in a helicopter gunship.

I was committing various felonies in Brooklyn.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 09, 2006, 12:33:17 AM
Where has your hilarious ass been for the past few days? I had assumed you were trying to find a minuteman in a helicopter gunship.

I was committing various felonies in Brooklyn.

Wait until I'm licensed to defend you, kid.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on October 09, 2006, 09:10:47 AM
so, did anyone end up at a school that they feel is the wrong fit for them?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Yeah, me. on October 09, 2006, 09:14:25 AM
Where has your hilarious ass been for the past few days? I had assumed you were trying to find a minuteman in a helicopter gunship.

I was committing various felonies in Brooklyn.

when i saw this, i assumed that these felonies involved miss p.

not sure why.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on October 09, 2006, 09:51:06 AM
and you are where?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on October 09, 2006, 10:02:44 AM
no idea whatsoever.

i dont usually keep track of where people go.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Elephant Lee on October 09, 2006, 10:06:02 AM
Take a look at the hat.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on October 09, 2006, 10:06:59 AM
ahhhh.  i dont normally look at pics of babies.


Boston College?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on October 09, 2006, 10:12:27 AM
anyone else?  second thoughts about your school, or are you in a goldilocks situation?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 09, 2006, 11:37:04 AM
Where has your hilarious ass been for the past few days? I had assumed you were trying to find a minuteman in a helicopter gunship.

I was committing various felonies in Brooklyn.

when i saw this, i assumed that these felonies involved miss p.

not sure why.

Because you crept into my brain and unlocked my secret fantasies, perhaps?
Alas, I am quite the law-abiding gal these days, it would seem.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 09, 2006, 11:39:05 AM
anyone else?  second thoughts about your school, or are you in a goldilocks situation?

I'm pretty happy with my school.  It's convenient and very cheap and the facilities are nice.  My professors are good.  I am making friends.  It has a pretty friendly, non-competitive vibe.  I wish I saw Quintana more often.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on October 09, 2006, 12:14:41 PM
so far, everyone seems happy. 

how odd.....
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on October 09, 2006, 01:52:56 PM
so far, everyone seems happy. 

how odd.....

I'm still undecided about my school. I love the faculty, the classes, the noncompetitive atmosphere, but I really don't like the town very much and wish the population were more diverse. Initially I thought it would be nice to save money in a less urban area, but now I'm thinking that I might be happier in a place that is a little more exciting.

and you are where?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on October 09, 2006, 01:54:30 PM
I wasn't sure about mine at first but I really like it now.  It's not very competitive, so everyone gets along well and my professors are generally great.  I like the town too... people here are really nice. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on October 09, 2006, 01:55:23 PM
I wasn't sure about mine at first but I really like it now.  It's not very competitive, so everyone gets along well and my professors are generally great.  I like the town too... people here are really nice. 

and your near fort knox, right?  what school is that?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on October 09, 2006, 01:57:54 PM
I wasn't sure about mine at first but I really like it now.  It's not very competitive, so everyone gets along well and my professors are generally great.  I like the town too... people here are really nice. 

and your near fort knox, right?  what school is that?

Oh my god, NO

Fort Knox does not equal KNOXVILLE

 ::)

thats tennessee, right?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on October 09, 2006, 02:06:04 PM
so far, everyone seems happy. 

how odd.....

I'm still undecided about my school. I love the faculty, the classes, the noncompetitive atmosphere, but I really don't like the town very much and wish the population were more diverse. Initially I thought it would be nice to save money in a less urban area, but now I'm thinking that I might be happier in a place that is a little more exciting.

and you are where?

South Bend, although I hope to study in London next year- so much more thrilling.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on October 09, 2006, 02:08:47 PM
so far, everyone seems happy. 

how odd.....

I'm still undecided about my school. I love the faculty, the classes, the noncompetitive atmosphere, but I really don't like the town very much and wish the population were more diverse. Initially I thought it would be nice to save money in a less urban area, but now I'm thinking that I might be happier in a place that is a little more exciting.

and you are where?

South Bend, although I hope to study in London next year- so much more thrilling.

SB not cold enough for ya?

whats in south Bend?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on October 09, 2006, 02:11:10 PM
so far, everyone seems happy. 

how odd.....

I'm still undecided about my school. I love the faculty, the classes, the noncompetitive atmosphere, but I really don't like the town very much and wish the population were more diverse. Initially I thought it would be nice to save money in a less urban area, but now I'm thinking that I might be happier in a place that is a little more exciting.

and you are where?

South Bend, although I hope to study in London next year- so much more thrilling.

SB not cold enough for ya?

whats in south Bend?

It pretty much has all of the excitement of Dale Mabry or US 19- except maybe those are more exciting, come to think of it. I don't mind cold weather though.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on October 09, 2006, 02:14:02 PM
so far, everyone seems happy. 

how odd.....

I'm still undecided about my school. I love the faculty, the classes, the noncompetitive atmosphere, but I really don't like the town very much and wish the population were more diverse. Initially I thought it would be nice to save money in a less urban area, but now I'm thinking that I might be happier in a place that is a little more exciting.

and you are where?

South Bend, although I hope to study in London next year- so much more thrilling.

SB not cold enough for ya?

whats in south Bend?

It pretty much has all of the excitement of Dale Mabry or US 19- except maybe those are more exciting, come to think of it. I don't mind cold weather though.

they have almost everything youd need, from cradle to grave....

others?

like your school or no?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on October 09, 2006, 05:53:41 PM
so far, everyone seems happy. 

how odd.....

I'm still undecided about my school. I love the faculty, the classes, the noncompetitive atmosphere, but I really don't like the town very much and wish the population were more diverse. Initially I thought it would be nice to save money in a less urban area, but now I'm thinking that I might be happier in a place that is a little more exciting.

and you are where?

South Bend, although I hope to study in London next year- so much more thrilling.

My buddy and I got lost in South Bend on our way to Boston from San Francisco.  He wanted to see some stupid dome.  We never found it and it set us back at least an hour.

Probably the dome on ND campus- really the only things of note here are ND and the College Football Hall of Fame. Oh, and the next door county is the RV capital of the world. A lot of people come to NDLS from ND undergrad and I wonder how they can stand South Bend for 7 years. It has none of the cool things normally available in a college town. It's more like a suburb except there's no big city within an hour or so. Okay, there is a downtown- but it's not an exciting one.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: SCgrad on October 09, 2006, 07:19:49 PM
Why do you feel you are qualified to make this statement?

Probably the same thing that prompted your posting and prevented you from dismissing my assertion out of hand.

No, you are talking out of your ass about something you couldn't possibly no.  First off, you don't know her that well.  But that is not even close to the most important reason.

That would be that you, a law school student if that, are trying to say you can judge the ability of your peers.  That is not the case, res ipsa loquitor.

Talking out of your ass in a nice way may not provide anything of substance, but I doubt anyone creates a false sense of self from a f-ing message board.

You, on the other hand, are talking out of your ass in a negative way.  That makes you a feminine hygiene product.

On one more related note, nobody fails out of top law schools.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: SCgrad on October 09, 2006, 07:22:16 PM
Yeah, BB is not the same in my book as he was when he came on.  If he hadn't "adjusted" I would have just stopped reading his posts like I have with other posters.  I just don't like the style and I think he takes it to the extreme.  I didn't like it about Stan, but I think he more frequently departed from it to make a J type argument.  If BB has actually done this, I have not seen it. I may have incorrectly conveyed that he is not making an argument.  I think he is making arguments, perhaps I think that more than others think that.  I just think his arguments are in disguise (perhaps as a defense to keep himself from ending up in a situation like he was in when he first showed up).  I wish they weren't.  But then again I wish when someone said something stupid they could just say "my bad, dog" and that would be it, but apparantly that also is not the case.

woah, I take things to the extreme?

No, you misread
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on October 12, 2006, 07:26:15 AM
and what have you learned so far in your first few weeks that surprises you?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on October 12, 2006, 08:44:15 AM
and what have you learned so far in your first few weeks that surprises you?

There's very rarely a definitive "right" answer and probably never will be.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on October 12, 2006, 08:54:02 AM
and what have you learned so far in your first few weeks that surprises you?

There's very rarely a definitive "right" answer and probably never will be.

as in, the questions wont allow it?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on October 13, 2006, 02:12:55 PM
sooooooooo

how many days a week are you going?

how long each day?

whens your 1st class start?

your last class end?

spend alot of time in the liberry?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: aerynn on October 13, 2006, 02:32:28 PM
sooooooooo

how many days a week are you going?

how long each day?

whens your 1st class start?

your last class end?

spend alot of time in the liberry?

These are not the important questions.  The main question should be "How much time out side of class do you spend for each class hour?"

The answer is "around 2."
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on October 13, 2006, 02:34:05 PM
sooooooooo

how many days a week are you going?

how long each day?

whens your 1st class start?

your last class end?

spend alot of time in the liberry?

These are not the important questions.  The main question should be "How much time out side of class do you spend for each class hour?"

The answer is "around 2."

ok then, how many are you in class for?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on October 13, 2006, 02:47:48 PM
sooooooooo

how many days a week are you going?

how long each day?

whens your 1st class start?

your last class end?

spend alot of time in the liberry?

These are not the important questions.  The main question should be "How much time out side of class do you spend for each class hour?"

The answer is "around 2."

ok then, how many are you in class for?

Each credit hour requires 50 minutes of class. You do the math. How much work you do outside the class for each class hour depends on the class. My legal writing class is 2 hours but I'd say I spend far more time on that class than I spend on other classes. My legal research class is 1 hour and sometimes the assignments take only 90 minutes but other times they take 5 hours. Generally for each credit hour I'm in class I spend 2-3 hours out of class not counting outlining and whatnot. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on October 13, 2006, 03:13:31 PM
It's fall break and I was in the library from 10-5 today, if that tells you anything. :D
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on October 13, 2006, 03:18:04 PM
It's fall break and I was in the library from 10-5 today, if that tells you anything. :D

You're crazy. My books are staying here. I've worked ahead all week to avoid having to do much work over break.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 13, 2006, 03:26:38 PM
Fall break?   :-[
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on October 13, 2006, 03:28:51 PM
It's fall break and I was in the library from 10-5 today, if that tells you anything. :D

You're crazy. My books are staying here. I've worked ahead all week to avoid having to do much work over break.

I'm working ahead all break to avoid working for the next 2 weekends. :D




Fall break?   :-[

Yes. queencruella and I are clearly the lucky ones.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 13, 2006, 03:30:59 PM
Fall break?   :-[

Yes. queencruella and I are clearly the lucky ones.

What does this look like?  An extra day or two?  A week? 
I. need. fall. break.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on October 13, 2006, 03:31:32 PM
Fall break?   :-[

Yes. queencruella and I are clearly the lucky ones.

What does this look like?  An extra day or two?  A week? 
I. need. fall. break.

I didn't have class today or yesterday.  And I'd probably want to kill myself in a week if we didn't have fall break.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 13, 2006, 03:34:02 PM
Fall break?   :-[

Yes. queencruella and I are clearly the lucky ones.

What does this look like?  An extra day or two?  A week? 
I. need. fall. break.

I didn't have class today or yesterday.  And I'd probably want to kill myself in a week if we didn't have fall break.

Yes, yes.  I'm quite certain you would.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on October 13, 2006, 03:35:06 PM
Fall break?   :-[

Yes. queencruella and I are clearly the lucky ones.

What does this look like?  An extra day or two?  A week? 
I. need. fall. break.

I didn't have class today or yesterday.  And I'd probably want to kill myself in a week if we didn't have fall break.

Yes, yes.  I'm quite certain you would.

And that would be unfortunate because my birthday is in a week.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 13, 2006, 03:36:53 PM
Fall break?   :-[

Yes. queencruella and I are clearly the lucky ones.

What does this look like?  An extra day or two?  A week? 
I. need. fall. break.

I didn't have class today or yesterday.  And I'd probably want to kill myself in a week if we didn't have fall break.

Yes, yes.  I'm quite certain you would.

And that would be unfortunate because my birthday is in a week.

On the other hand, I'd better wish you a happy birthday in advance.  Who knows how long I'll make it.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on October 13, 2006, 03:37:30 PM
Fall break?   :-[

Yes. queencruella and I are clearly the lucky ones.

What does this look like?  An extra day or two?  A week? 
I. need. fall. break.

I have a week starting Monday. I'm trying to work now so I don't have to take anything home, but I have a memo the due the week I get back so I'm going to have to take that home at the very least. We started August 21, so I think there's time for it here. This is the first time I've ever had fall break (neither my UG nor grad institutions had it), so I'm thrilled. Of course one prof decided to ease us into it by rescheduling today's class to 8am. Fun!  Whatever though- everyone was wide awake after walking through freezing, gale force winds to get to class. THe weather here is just awesome, let me tell you.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 13, 2006, 03:39:25 PM
Fall break?   :-[

Yes. queencruella and I are clearly the lucky ones.

What does this look like?  An extra day or two?  A week? 
I. need. fall. break.

I have a week starting Monday. I'm trying to work now so I don't have to take anything home, but I have a memo the due the week I get back so I'm going to have to take that home at the very least. We started August 21, so I think there's time for it here. This is the first time I've ever had fall break (neither my UG nor grad institutions had it), so I'm thrilled. Of course one prof decided to ease us into it by rescheduling today's class to 8am. Fun!  Whatever though- everyone was wide awake after walking through freezing, gale force winds to get to class. THe weather here is just awesome, let me tell you.

We started at the same time.  I want fall break!

Meanwhile, stay bundled and safe, qc.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on October 13, 2006, 03:40:01 PM
Fall break?   :-[

Yes. queencruella and I are clearly the lucky ones.

What does this look like?  An extra day or two?  A week? 
I. need. fall. break.

I didn't have class today or yesterday.  And I'd probably want to kill myself in a week if we didn't have fall break.

Yes, yes.  I'm quite certain you would.

And that would be unfortunate because my birthday is in a week.

On the other hand, I'd better wish you a happy birthday in advance.  Who knows how long I'll make it.

:(

Wow, a week, that would be sweet.  I've never had a week for fall break.  But I'll take my two days.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on October 13, 2006, 03:46:37 PM
Fall break?   :-[

Yes. queencruella and I are clearly the lucky ones.

What does this look like?  An extra day or two?  A week? 
I. need. fall. break.

I didn't have class today or yesterday.  And I'd probably want to kill myself in a week if we didn't have fall break.

Yes, yes.  I'm quite certain you would.

And that would be unfortunate because my birthday is in a week.

On the other hand, I'd better wish you a happy birthday in advance.  Who knows how long I'll make it.

:(

Wow, a week, that would be sweet.  I've never had a week for fall break.  But I'll take my two days.

Have a happy birthday in case I miss it. My birthday will remain a mystery, since I will be entering the next decade of my life and that will officially put me into the ancient category at my school. All the profs I've talked to about being older tell me they wished they had not gone straight through from undergrad, though, so I can't complain too much. :)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 14, 2006, 08:14:21 AM

Have a happy birthday in case I miss it. My birthday will remain a mystery, since I will be entering the next decade of my life and that will officially put me into the ancient category at my school. All the profs I've talked to about being older tell me they wished they had not gone straight through from undergrad, though, so I can't complain too much. :)

Lily on looks, Cruella on age -- these are the mainstays of LSD.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 14, 2006, 08:18:54 AM

Have a happy birthday in case I miss it. My birthday will remain a mystery, since I will be entering the next decade of my life and that will officially put me into the ancient category at my school. All the profs I've talked to about being older tell me they wished they had not gone straight through from undergrad, though, so I can't complain too much. :)

Lily on looks, Cruella on age -- these are the mainstays of LSD.

Don't forget P on fat.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on October 14, 2006, 08:20:34 AM

Don't forget P on fat.

 :D

How in the world, did I forget that?  :D
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 14, 2006, 08:21:09 AM
I'm sure stan is something.

Stan on... moderation?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: aerynn on October 14, 2006, 07:29:57 PM
I've got a 4 day weekend this week for fall break, but we didn't have Labor Day or Columbus Day off.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: John Galt on October 14, 2006, 07:36:55 PM
I've got a 4 day weekend this week for fall break, but we didn't have Labor Day or Columbus Day off.

 we have a 10 day break. I can't wait.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on October 14, 2006, 08:40:08 PM
have the clazsses youve taken so far given you an idea of what you may wish to sepcialize in?

what youd like to avoid?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on October 15, 2006, 07:24:54 AM
I've got a 4 day weekend this week for fall break, but we didn't have Labor Day or Columbus Day off.

 we have a 10 day break. I can't wait.

Seriously?

We get no break, ever.

You are in continuous law school hell for LIFE!

Poor halfie.  :(
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: John Galt on October 15, 2006, 09:35:28 AM
remind me to quote all of H4CS' posts as he makes them, post deleting bastard. :D
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: John Galt on October 15, 2006, 09:57:48 AM
remind me to quote all of H4CS' posts as he makes them, post deleting bastard. :D

Get back to your massage!

look man, you get the prestige. I get the massages. Fair enough, imo ;)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 15, 2006, 01:04:16 PM
freaks

No kidding.  Personally, I'm only afraid of abandoment, failure, commitment, the dark, success, monsters, and intimacy.  Did I say the dark?  Oh yeah, and Zombies.  I'm pretty well adjusted for this place.

I see you on abandonment, failure, commitment, the dark, montsters, and intimacy.  I have never had any reason to fear Zombies and success.  Will you take heights, crowded places, homosexuals, mice, drowning, overexposure, and Northern lights?

EDIT: and redheads.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 15, 2006, 01:41:38 PM
I see you on abandonment, failure, commitment, the dark, montsters, and intimacy.  I have never had any reason to fear Zombies and success.  Will you take heights, crowded places, homosexuals, mice, drowning, overexposure, and Northern lights?

EDIT: and redheads.

Have you ever had Librium and tomato juice?

Wasn't it you who told me they were unbelievable?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 15, 2006, 01:47:16 PM
Wasn't it you who told me they were unbelievable?

No, I can't drink tomato juice.  I have a problem with foods that aren't easily classifiable into one of the basic groups or that I feel have some sort of misclassification problem.  I mean, Avocados aren't fruit.  I'm getting all worked up thinking about it.

I get bogged down in that whole things-called-nuts-are-really-legumes bit.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on October 15, 2006, 02:13:48 PM
I mean, Avocados aren't fruit.  I'm getting all worked up thinking about it.

I get bogged down in that whole things-called-nuts-are-really-legumes bit.

How do y'all feel about pistachios, then?

Terrified.

I'm just going to go ahead and say that I don't like light green foods.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Ever on October 16, 2006, 12:12:44 AM
look man, you get the prestige. I get the massages. Fair enough, imo ;)

This works out well as over half of Harvard students are afraid of intimacy.

Huh? That sucks; I always wished my school had one of these: H-Bomb (http://www.h-bomb.org/)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on October 24, 2006, 09:44:21 AM
where ya living?

alone?

how much?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on November 09, 2006, 01:37:29 PM
nearing the end of the 1st term

thoughts?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: thestradgirl on November 09, 2006, 01:41:55 PM
nearing the end of the 1st term

thoughts?

If you take cranberries and stew them in applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does.  Just a thought.

That sounds really delicious. I'm gonna try that right now. *off to the kitchen*
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: pikey on November 09, 2006, 01:42:46 PM
nearing the end of the 1st term

thoughts?

If you take cranberries and stew them in applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does.  Just a thought.

That sounds really delicious. I'm gonna try that right now. *off to the kitchen*

That sounds gross.  I'm having a fish salad for dinner.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: thestradgirl on November 09, 2006, 01:43:29 PM
nearing the end of the 1st term

thoughts?

If you take cranberries and stew them in applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does.  Just a thought.

That sounds really delicious. I'm gonna try that right now. *off to the kitchen*

That sounds gross.  I'm having a fish salad for dinner.

Fish sald sounds interesting. What kind of fish, cooked how?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Thistle on November 09, 2006, 01:46:14 PM
nearing the end of the 1st term

thoughts?

If you take cranberries and stew them in applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does.  Just a thought.

That sounds really delicious. I'm gonna try that right now. *off to the kitchen*

That sounds gross.  I'm having a fish salad for dinner.

ewww.  like fish salad doesnt sound gross?  well, maybe not salmon or tunafish, but i flashed a visual of a whole fish, head and all, lying on a bed of lettuce and covered with dressing.  gag.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on November 09, 2006, 01:48:11 PM
nearing the end of the 1st term

thoughts?

If you take cranberries and stew them in applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does.  Just a thought.

That sounds really delicious. I'm gonna try that right now. *off to the kitchen*

That sounds gross.  I'm having a fish salad for dinner.

ewww.  like fish salad doesnt sound gross?  well, maybe not salmon or tunafish, but i flashed a visual of a whole fish, head and all, lying on a bed of lettuce and covered with dressing.  gag.

maybe she meant it metaphorically?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: pikey on November 09, 2006, 01:49:56 PM
nearing the end of the 1st term

thoughts?

If you take cranberries and stew them in applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does.  Just a thought.

That sounds really delicious. I'm gonna try that right now. *off to the kitchen*

That sounds gross.  I'm having a fish salad for dinner.

Fish sald sounds interesting. What kind of fish, cooked how?

It's a Bermudian thing.  Wahoo or snapper, pan fried or deep fried (lightly battered, unlike that British stuff) on a bed of lettuce with tomatoes, onions, and cheese.  It's really good.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: thestradgirl on November 09, 2006, 01:53:26 PM
Fish sald sounds interesting. What kind of fish, cooked how?

It's a Bermudian thing.  Wahoo or snapper, pan fried or deep fried (lightly battered, unlike that British stuff) on a bed of lettuce with tomatoes, onions, and cheese.  It's really good.

I see. sound good. I love snapper.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on November 09, 2006, 01:55:16 PM
Fish sald sounds interesting. What kind of fish, cooked how?

It's a Bermudian thing.  Wahoo or snapper, pan fried or deep fried (lightly battered, unlike that British stuff) on a bed of lettuce with tomatoes, onions, and cheese.  It's really good.

I see. sound good. I love snapper.

hehe, me 2
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: aerynn on November 09, 2006, 02:34:48 PM
Bagels from the lounge have as many calories as a small meal, but the carbos are processed too quickly to really do much good.  You just end up hungry.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: thestradgirl on November 09, 2006, 02:36:11 PM
Bagels from the lounge have as many calories as a small meal, but the carbos are processed too quickly to really do much good.  You just end up hungry.

That is so true.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on November 13, 2006, 06:28:18 AM
anyone gotten lucky yet with someone they DIDNT know b4 they started school?

and cupcake, only count the first dozen or so....
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on November 13, 2006, 07:15:29 PM
anyone gotten lucky yet with someone they DIDNT know b4 they started school?

and cupcake, only count the first dozen or so....


 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on November 13, 2006, 08:30:02 PM
anyone gotten lucky yet with someone they DIDNT know b4 they started school?

and cupcake, only count the first dozen or so....


 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)


and a dozen rolly eyes.

i KNEW it!!!!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on November 24, 2006, 09:12:29 AM
ok, as the first term wraps up, how much debt have you had to take on so far?

whats it look like its going to be for the yr?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: cheesesteak on November 24, 2006, 10:05:33 AM
$53K
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on November 24, 2006, 10:09:09 AM
$53K

is that for the yr?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: cheesesteak on November 24, 2006, 10:26:49 AM
Yep, for the year.  (Assuming I don't drop out or fail out.)  Thats what happens when you don't get scholarship money because you are a choke artist on LSAT day.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on November 24, 2006, 10:40:01 AM
Yep, for the year.  (Assuming I don't drop out or fail out.)  Thats what happens when you don't get scholarship money because you are a choke artist on LSAT day.

ouch!

anyone else?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on November 24, 2006, 10:46:37 AM
I will take on $18,500 of debt (all federal loans) this year.  I have pretty much a full ride, plus a summer stipend.  I'm pretty frugal.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on November 24, 2006, 10:57:38 AM
I will take on $18,500 of debt (all federal loans) this year.  I have pretty much a full ride, plus a summer stipend.  I'm pretty frugal.

so just COL for you?

not too bad!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on November 24, 2006, 10:58:54 AM
I will take on $18,500 of debt (all federal loans) this year.  I have pretty much a full ride, plus a summer stipend.  I'm pretty frugal.

so just COL for you?

not too bad!

I had to chip in about $900 for fees and I had to buy my books, but yes, basically.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on November 24, 2006, 11:06:13 AM
thats the kinda deal im hoping for.


anyone else?  let us know how bad its going to be...
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: cheesesteak on November 24, 2006, 11:27:39 AM
thats the kinda deal im hoping for.

I heard Thomas Cooley gives out lots of money each year, and they are a T14.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on November 24, 2006, 11:28:51 AM
yeapm but way too cold.

If i was going to go to the frozen North, id go to UMichigan...
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: cheesesteak on November 24, 2006, 11:30:35 AM
yeapm but way too cold.

If i was going to go to the frozen North, id go to UMichigan...
Florida Coastal?
Thomas Jefferson?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: bass on November 24, 2006, 11:32:11 AM
28,500 for me.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on November 24, 2006, 11:33:24 AM
28,500 for me.

is that for the term, or yr?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: sara on November 24, 2006, 11:52:51 AM
I borrowed $5,379 this semester
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: bass on November 24, 2006, 11:55:42 AM
28,500 for me.

is that for the term, or yr?

That's for the year.  I can't imagine being able to borrow much less from my school (without having loads of cash of my own).  They gave me a hefty grant, and I borrow the rest up to the budget (roughly).
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on November 24, 2006, 11:58:56 AM
I borrow $5,379 a semester

for everything?  are you on a full scholarship?


28,500 for me.

is that for the term, or yr?

That's for the year.  I can't imagine being able to borrow much less from my school (without having loads of cash of my own).  They gave me a hefty grant, and I borrow the rest up to the budget (roughly).
so is that just living, or living and tuition?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: sara on November 24, 2006, 11:59:53 AM
For everything and I'll borrow less in future semesters. I am not on a full scholarship. But between a natural tendency to pinch pennies and a tiny career in accounting, parting with money is like parting with organs for me
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: bass on November 24, 2006, 12:01:03 PM
I borrow $5,379 a semester

for everything?  are you on a full scholarship?


28,500 for me.

is that for the term, or yr?

That's for the year.  I can't imagine being able to borrow much less from my school (without having loads of cash of my own).  They gave me a hefty grant, and I borrow the rest up to the budget (roughly).
so is that just living, or living and tuition?

That's for everything.  The tuition is like 37k/yr, the student budget (including that) is like 56k/yr, I get like 26K in grants, and the rest is loans.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on November 24, 2006, 12:02:59 PM
For everything and I'll borrow less in future semesters. I am not on a full scholarship. But between a natural tendency to pinch pennies and a tiny career in accounting, parting with money is like parting with organs for me

i need a wife like you......






That's for everything.  The tuition is like 37k/yr, the student budget (including that) is like 56k/yr, I get like 26K in grants, and the rest is loans.

at least its not too bad.  could you imagine with NO $$$?   :o
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: cheesesteak on November 24, 2006, 12:04:24 PM
For everything and I'll borrow less in future semesters. I am not on a full scholarship. But between a natural tendency to pinch pennies and a tiny career in accounting, parting with money is like parting with organs for me

i need a wife like you......






That's for everything.  The tuition is like 37k/yr, the student budget (including that) is like 56k/yr, I get like 26K in grants, and the rest is loans.

at least its not too bad.  could you imagine with NO $$$?   :o
I can, oh wait I'm not imagining it.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on November 24, 2006, 12:05:21 PM
not totally.

56k a yr would be a bit more painful...
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: bass on November 24, 2006, 12:09:01 PM
Some people are borrowing nearly that amount I imagine.  I will be lucky to get out with less than 90K in loans from ls alone.  Good thing ugrad was cheap.  Also, no repo-man for brains.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on November 24, 2006, 12:15:44 PM
Also, no repo-man for brains.

Sure. It goes by "BigLaw".
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Thistle on November 24, 2006, 12:16:58 PM
god, i hate law school
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: cheesesteak on November 24, 2006, 12:18:07 PM
god, i hate law school
There is a thread for that.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: bass on November 24, 2006, 12:18:14 PM
Also, no repo-man for brains.

Sure. It goes by "BigLaw".

Alas, that's not in the cards, long term at least.

On the subject of post-grad employment, my adviser has some interesting advice.  For what I want to do, she said the best thing to do would be to get a supreme court clerkship.  Of course, I should get a feeder one first.  For that, incredible grades and law review would be expected.  Thanks adviser.  You're great.  She said the same thing to a classmate of mine who is interested in an entirely different field.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on November 24, 2006, 12:23:23 PM
Also, no repo-man for brains.

Sure. It goes by "BigLaw".

Alas, that's not in the cards, long term at least.

On the subject of post-grad employment, my adviser has some interesting advice.  For what I want to do, she said the best thing to do would be to get a supreme court clerkship.  Of course, I should get a feeder one first.  For that, incredible grades and law review would be expected.  Thanks adviser.  You're great.  She said the same thing to a classmate of mine who is interested in an entirely different field.

hehehe

oh, and another little nugget for you - - have a relative that knows someone on the supreme court.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on November 24, 2006, 12:26:26 PM

Alas, that's not in the cards, long term at least.

On the subject of post-grad employment, my adviser has some interesting advice.  For what I want to do, she said the best thing to do would be to get a supreme court clerkship.  Of course, I should get a feeder one first.  For that, incredible grades and law review would be expected.  Thanks adviser.  You're great.  She said the same thing to a classmate of mine who is interested in an entirely different field.

lol. Gotta love advisors.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on November 24, 2006, 12:27:03 PM
god, i hate law school

Why? The kids or the material?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: bass on November 24, 2006, 12:30:01 PM
Also, no repo-man for brains.

Sure. It goes by "BigLaw".

Alas, that's not in the cards, long term at least.

On the subject of post-grad employment, my adviser has some interesting advice.  For what I want to do, she said the best thing to do would be to get a supreme court clerkship.  Of course, I should get a feeder one first.  For that, incredible grades and law review would be expected.  Thanks adviser.  You're great.  She said the same thing to a classmate of mine who is interested in an entirely different field.

hehehe

oh, and another little nugget for you - - have a relative that knows someone on the supreme court.

Yea... If there were a democrat in the white house, I had a chance.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Lily Jaye on November 24, 2006, 12:41:17 PM
Also, no repo-man for brains.

Sure. It goes by "BigLaw".

Alas, that's not in the cards, long term at least.

On the subject of post-grad employment, my adviser has some interesting advice.  For what I want to do, she said the best thing to do would be to get a supreme court clerkship.  Of course, I should get a feeder one first.  For that, incredible grades and law review would be expected.  Thanks adviser.  You're great.  She said the same thing to a classmate of mine who is interested in an entirely different field.

Hmm.  Recent graduates really do make far better advisors. 

Who'd have thunk it?

Academia, right? 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: bass on November 24, 2006, 12:42:57 PM
Also, no repo-man for brains.

Sure. It goes by "BigLaw".

Alas, that's not in the cards, long term at least.

On the subject of post-grad employment, my adviser has some interesting advice.  For what I want to do, she said the best thing to do would be to get a supreme court clerkship.  Of course, I should get a feeder one first.  For that, incredible grades and law review would be expected.  Thanks adviser.  You're great.  She said the same thing to a classmate of mine who is interested in an entirely different field.

Hmm.  Recent graduates really do make far better advisors. 

Who'd have thunk it?

Academia, right? 

Yea, academia for me, appellate litigation for a friend.  It certainly helps for both (golden ticket?), but is necessary for neither.  I think that COA clerkship is a prereq for appellate lit., but not necessarily for academia (many more ways to skin that cat). In any case, I'll probably go for a clerkship if I can.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Lily Jaye on November 24, 2006, 12:49:25 PM
Also, no repo-man for brains.

Sure. It goes by "BigLaw".

Alas, that's not in the cards, long term at least.

On the subject of post-grad employment, my adviser has some interesting advice.  For what I want to do, she said the best thing to do would be to get a supreme court clerkship.  Of course, I should get a feeder one first.  For that, incredible grades and law review would be expected.  Thanks adviser.  You're great.  She said the same thing to a classmate of mine who is interested in an entirely different field.

Hmm.  Recent graduates really do make far better advisors. 

Who'd have thunk it?

Academia, right? 

Yea, academia for me, appellate litigation for a friend.  It certainly helps for both (golden ticket?), but is necessary for neither.  I think that COA clerkship is a prereq for appellate lit., but not necessarily for academia (many more ways to skin that cat). In any case, I'll probably go for a clerkship if I can.

I don't know about appellate litigation, but my bro has a very interesting argument about why clerkships are overrated generally. 

The exceptions, of course, are academia and future federal judiciary. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on November 24, 2006, 12:54:01 PM
I don't know about appellate litigation, but my bro has a very interesting argument about why clerkships are overrated generally. 

The exceptions, of course, are academia and future federal judiciary. 

My exposure leads me to believe that they're pretty important for a certain elite (er, elitist) segment of the public interest world as well.  It's difficult to get a job at a fancy impact litigation shop without either a great fellowship or a high-level clerkship.  About three-quarters of the lawyers at my old office, for instance, had either a Skadden or similar (we have a dedicated fellowship with another V100) or a CoA/SCOTUS clerkship (if not both).
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Lily Jaye on November 24, 2006, 01:05:09 PM
Also, no repo-man for brains.

Sure. It goes by "BigLaw".

Alas, that's not in the cards, long term at least.

On the subject of post-grad employment, my adviser has some interesting advice.  For what I want to do, she said the best thing to do would be to get a supreme court clerkship.  Of course, I should get a feeder one first.  For that, incredible grades and law review would be expected.  Thanks adviser.  You're great.  She said the same thing to a classmate of mine who is interested in an entirely different field.

Hmm.  Recent graduates really do make far better advisors. 

Who'd have thunk it?

Academia, right? 

Yea, academia for me, appellate litigation for a friend.  It certainly helps for both (golden ticket?), but is necessary for neither.  I think that COA clerkship is a prereq for appellate lit., but not necessarily for academia (many more ways to skin that cat). In any case, I'll probably go for a clerkship if I can.

I don't know about appellate litigation, but my bro has a very interesting argument about why clerkships are overrated generally. 

The exceptions, of course, are academia and future federal judiciary. 
Share please :)

First, they're not cost-effective.  Bonuses for COA clerkships at Covington, Skadden, Sullivan, Baker Botts, Williams, and Latham (the only firms for which he has confirmation) barely cover interest -- they don't touch the opportunity cost of foregoing a 125k starting salary for a 50k clerkship.  SCOTUS bonuses at Latham might, but he doesn't know any SCOTUS clerks (yet), so he can't tell for certain.

Second, with the exception of a few fields like academia, it doesn't substantially help your career. Making partner has little to do with your past achievements and everything to do with rainmaking. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Thistle on November 24, 2006, 09:09:53 PM
god, i hate law school

Why? The kids or the material?


the kids are fine.  i'm very frustrated at one of my professors
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: cheesesteak on November 25, 2006, 03:28:37 AM
god, i hate law school

Why? The kids or the material?


the kids are fine.  i'm very frustrated at one of my professors
Why?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Thistle on November 25, 2006, 10:21:39 AM
god, i hate law school

Why? The kids or the material?


the kids are fine.  i'm very frustrated at one of my professors
Why?


difference of opinion on a memo.  it appears i'm trying to be convinced that i'm not a good writer, and i know better. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on November 25, 2006, 10:26:39 AM
difference of opinion on a memo.  it appears i'm trying to be convinced that i'm not a good writer, and i know better. 

I hear that LRW is supposed to destroy what writing ability that one had in order to make it more high school-ish
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on November 25, 2006, 10:49:49 AM
difference of opinion on a memo.  it appears i'm trying to be convinced that i'm not a good writer, and i know better. 

I hear that LRW is supposed to destroy what writing ability that one had in order to make it more high school-ish

Yup, that about sums it up.  They seem to enjoy telling us that English majors do the worst.

I think it depends on the school. I was an English major and I am doing well in my class. My prof never makes any comments about people generally doing the worst, but she's made comments about the general lack of writing skill making it more difficult for people to improve generally.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on November 25, 2006, 11:55:18 AM
My LW professor has never taught the class before and I'm convinced he lives in a magical land of his own making. 

He likes to tell us how to organize our papers, and then when we organize it that way, he tells us it's wrong. 

He contradicts himself in other ways too.  Therefore, I am learning nothing about legal writing and have decided that his class is worthless and I should not be paying the slightest attention to my grades in that class.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: thestradgirl on November 25, 2006, 12:01:09 PM
My LW professor has never taught the class before and I'm convinced he lives in a magical land of his own making. 

He likes to tell us how to organize our papers, and then when we organize it that way, he tells us it's wrong. 

He contradicts himself in other ways too. Therefore, I am learning nothing about legal writing and have decided that his class is worthless and I should not be paying the slightest attention to my grades in that class.

I hate teachers like that. :|
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: bass on November 25, 2006, 12:01:16 PM
difference of opinion on a memo.  it appears i'm trying to be convinced that i'm not a good writer, and i know better. 

I hear that LRW is supposed to destroy what writing ability that one had in order to make it more high school-ish

I'm doing well and writing exactly as I always have.  I think LRW caters to a particular style: concise and well-structured.  It doesn't cater to creative expression.  My position (at least on my own writing) is that I want straightforward prose with impressive ideas/arguments.  Creativity in thought is more important (for me) than creativity in expression.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on November 25, 2006, 12:18:56 PM
I'm doing well and writing exactly as I always have.  I think LRW caters to a particular style: concise and well-structured.  It doesn't cater to creative expression.  My position (at least on my own writing) is that I want straightforward prose with impressive ideas/arguments.  Creativity in thought is more important (for me) than creativity in expression.

No 5x repetition of exactly the same idea in HLS LRW?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: cheesesteak on November 25, 2006, 12:31:13 PM
I'm doing well and writing exactly as I always have.  I think LRW caters to a particular style: concise and well-structured.  It doesn't cater to creative expression.  My position (at least on my own writing) is that I want straightforward prose with impressive ideas/arguments.  Creativity in thought is more important (for me) than creativity in expression.

No 5x repetition of exactly the same idea in HLS LRW?
Apparently bass writes so well that he only needs to say something once.  He is above IRAC.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on November 25, 2006, 12:38:50 PM
get back to the debt people!!!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on November 25, 2006, 12:58:11 PM
difference of opinion on a memo.  it appears i'm trying to be convinced that i'm not a good writer, and i know better. 

I hear that LRW is supposed to destroy what writing ability that one had in order to make it more high school-ish

I'm doing well and writing exactly as I always have.  I think LRW caters to a particular style: concise and well-structured.  It doesn't cater to creative expression.  My position (at least on my own writing) is that I want straightforward prose with impressive ideas/arguments.  Creativity in thought is more important (for me) than creativity in expression.

I agree. It's just not that useful in legal writing to spend your time trying to figure out how to express something in a creative and unusual way. The people who do well tend to have a style like you mention and can pick up issues or ways of looking at a problem that other people may miss.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on November 25, 2006, 01:07:21 PM
My LW professor has never taught the class before and I'm convinced he lives in a magical land of his own making. 

He likes to tell us how to organize our papers, and then when we organize it that way, he tells us it's wrong. 

He contradicts himself in other ways too.  Therefore, I am learning nothing about legal writing and have decided that his class is worthless and I should not be paying the slightest attention to my grades in that class.

I will not be getting an acceptable grade in legal writing.  My legal writing is passable, though I have some of the same problems others have mentioned with my professor (first draft: "Too many counterarguments!"; second draft: "Where are your counterarguments?"; final draft: "Too many counterarguments!").  But other things have gotten in the way.  I've decided that it's okay since I already have my (writing-intensive) summer job lined up, and I can use writing samples from there in the future if I'm unable to write on to LR. Please don't tell me I'm crazy; I need to believe this.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on November 25, 2006, 01:11:25 PM
LRW sounds whack, yo'.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: cheesesteak on November 25, 2006, 01:13:04 PM
LRW sounds whack, yo'.
Thats the spirit.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on November 25, 2006, 01:14:28 PM
LRW sounds whack, yo'.

how many times do we have to tell you how silly you sound when you try to sound cool?

You're giving me a [wharton] complex.

You liked LRW, right?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: cheesesteak on November 25, 2006, 01:15:19 PM
LRW sounds whack, yo'.

how many times do we have to tell you how silly you sound when you try to sound cool?

You're giving me a [wharton] complex.

You liked LRW, right?
Who? Me or the kitchen countertop?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Thistle on November 25, 2006, 01:17:12 PM
My LW professor has never taught the class before and I'm convinced he lives in a magical land of his own making. 

He likes to tell us how to organize our papers, and then when we organize it that way, he tells us it's wrong. 

He contradicts himself in other ways too.  Therefore, I am learning nothing about legal writing and have decided that his class is worthless and I should not be paying the slightest attention to my grades in that class.


wait... do i go to your school?


for example i wrote something like "the supreme court said blah blah blah.  it later ruled...."

and got back my paper with the word "it" circled and a comment of "who is it?"

who is "it?"  am i writing for morons?  6th graders?  what?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on November 25, 2006, 01:18:00 PM

Who? Me or the kitchen countertop?

Did you like it? The countertop is a silent gunner, so he won't say.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on November 25, 2006, 01:18:57 PM
for example i wrote something like "the supreme court said blah blah blah.  it later ruled...."

and got back my paper with the word "it" circled and a comment of "who is it?"

who is "it?"  am i writing for morons?  6th graders?  what?

LMAO.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: cheesesteak on November 25, 2006, 01:19:37 PM
My LW professor has never taught the class before and I'm convinced he lives in a magical land of his own making. 

He likes to tell us how to organize our papers, and then when we organize it that way, he tells us it's wrong. 

He contradicts himself in other ways too.  Therefore, I am learning nothing about legal writing and have decided that his class is worthless and I should not be paying the slightest attention to my grades in that class.


wait... do i go to your school?


for example i wrote something like "the supreme court said blah blah blah.  it later ruled...."

and got back my paper with the word "it" circled and a comment of "who is it?"

who is "it?"  am i writing for morons?  6th graders?  what?
hahahahahahaaa

One one draft I wrote an explanation of a rule statement and she told me it was too concise.
So I rewrite.
Next draft I am told it is not concise enough.
I rewrite.
On the final paper the comments said that the explanation of the rule statement was innaccurate.  WTF?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on November 25, 2006, 01:21:16 PM
My LW professor has never taught the class before and I'm convinced he lives in a magical land of his own making. 

He likes to tell us how to organize our papers, and then when we organize it that way, he tells us it's wrong. 

He contradicts himself in other ways too.  Therefore, I am learning nothing about legal writing and have decided that his class is worthless and I should not be paying the slightest attention to my grades in that class.


wait... do i go to your school?


for example i wrote something like "the supreme court said blah blah blah.  it later ruled...."

and got back my paper with the word "it" circled and a comment of "who is it?"

who is "it?"  am i writing for morons?  6th graders?  what?

Hahahah I wish!

Yeah, that sounds about right for most LW classes...  ::)

Luckily our LR is split from LW, or I would be learning nothing about research.  My LW prof hates citations with the fire of 10,000 suns and I've been known to say that I could  cite to "Mary Had a Little Lamb" and he wouldn't notice.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: cheesesteak on November 25, 2006, 01:23:02 PM

Who? Me or the kitchen countertop?

Did you like it? The countertop is a silent gunner, so he won't say.
I used to despise it.  Round peg --->crunch-->square hole.  But now I see why it is how it is.  Busy (i.e. lazy) partners who don't ever want to have to turn a page to see how one piece of info relates to another.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Lily Jaye on November 25, 2006, 01:24:27 PM
LRW sounds whack, yo'.

how many times do we have to tell you how silly you sound when you try to sound cool?

You're giving me a [wharton] complex.

You liked LRW, right?

Insecurity --> Prestige Fixation.

Insecurity --> Belittling others.

Am I right?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on November 25, 2006, 01:25:54 PM
LRW sounds whack, yo'.

how many times do we have to tell you how silly you sound when you try to sound cool?

You're giving me a [wharton] complex.

You liked LRW, right?

Insecurity --> Prestige Fixation.

Insecurity --> Belittling others.

Am I right?

You don't think it's even a little bit funny?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on November 25, 2006, 01:26:58 PM

I used to despise it.  Round peg --->crunch-->square hole.  But now I see why it is how it is.  Busy (i.e. lazy) partners who don't ever want to have to turn a page to see how one piece of info relates to another.

That works. No use in fighting the man. Not over a memo, anyway.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Lily Jaye on November 25, 2006, 01:28:14 PM
LRW sounds whack, yo'.

how many times do we have to tell you how silly you sound when you try to sound cool?

You're giving me a [wharton] complex.

You liked LRW, right?

Insecurity --> Prestige Fixation.

Insecurity --> Belittling others.

Am I right?

You don't think it's even a little bit funny?

Not really.  I'm not a fan of cringe-intensive comedy.

I'm just kinda perplexed by the fact that you're far more insecure than I am.  
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: cheesesteak on November 25, 2006, 01:29:52 PM

I used to despise it.  Round peg --->crunch-->square hole.  But now I see why it is how it is.  Busy (i.e. lazy) partners who don't ever want to have to turn a page to see how one piece of info relates to another.

That works. No use in fighting the man. Not over a memo, anyway.

I used to despise it.  Round peg --->crunch-->square hole.  But now I see why it is how it is.  Busy (i.e. lazy) partners who don't ever want to have to turn a page to see how one piece of info relates to another.

That works. No use in fighting the man. Not over a memo, anyway.
The last time I hung out with my aunt (who has her own family law firm in Florida) continued to tell me that judges will love you and you will win cases if you write in the proper IRAC (or some variation) format every time.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on November 25, 2006, 01:37:04 PM

I'm just kinda perplexed by the fact that you're far more insecure than I am.  

Well, don't tell Stan. I make fun of The Granite all the time and he hasn't yet figured out why.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Lily Jaye on November 25, 2006, 01:38:57 PM
:D

Although if Swats is making you insecure, I'm going to start worrying about you. ;)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on November 25, 2006, 01:40:13 PM
Ouch.

Swats! Are you going to let that lie?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on November 25, 2006, 01:43:04 PM
Ah, yes. Self-deprecation. Wimp.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: cheesesteak on November 25, 2006, 01:43:34 PM
Ah, yes. Self-deprecation. Wimp.
Hijacker
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on November 25, 2006, 01:44:14 PM
What was the topic?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Lily Jaye on November 25, 2006, 01:51:30 PM
Ah, yes. Self-deprecation. Wimp.

like i always say, best not to show your hand when it's not necessary.

Hmm.  I always thought it was best to avoid games that aren't worth winning.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Lily Jaye on November 25, 2006, 01:53:09 PM
I like legal writing  :-[

Our classes are taught by 3Ls, which I think works really well--much better than I expected.

Ours are joint taught.

I adore my TA, though.  But that may be because he gave me his friends old outlines.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Lily Jaye on November 25, 2006, 01:55:37 PM
Ah, yes. Self-deprecation. Wimp.

like i always say, best not to show your hand when it's not necessary.

Hmm.  I always thought it was best to avoid games that aren't worth winning.

save energy for more important games.

Yup.

Apparently the new Zelda's really good.  My brother just sent me an e-mail with a bunch of finals advice, and the final paragraph was: "By the way, if you thought resisting Final Fantasy was tough: My roommate just got a Nintendo Wii with the new Zelda game. I just played for like an hour this morning. I think it's literally so much fun it's a danger to America's youth.  Whatever you do, steer clear of that sucker."

Does this mean we can get it over Christmas, Swats?  Or would that screw us over spring semester?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on November 25, 2006, 01:56:30 PM
save energy for more important games.

Paintball? I love paintball, I have to say.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: thestradgirl on November 25, 2006, 01:57:27 PM
save energy for more important games.

Paintball? I love paintball, I have to say.

I've never played. It scares me. :o
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: cheesesteak on November 25, 2006, 01:58:04 PM
I like legal writing  :-[

Our classes are taught by 3Ls, which I think works really well--much better than I expected.

Ours are joint taught.

I adore my TA, though.  But that may be because he gave me his friends old outlines.
I adore my TA because she is hot, blonde, and has the sweetest southern accent.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on November 25, 2006, 02:00:36 PM
paintball's too violent for me.

I've never played. It scares me. :o

Damned Koreans
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Lily Jaye on November 25, 2006, 02:03:09 PM
i don't know about zelda, but i fully intend to buy, play, beat, and forget about FFXII over the break.

paintball's too violent for me.

I'm debating whether to get the DS and the jazzed-up FFIII. Square Enix's recent stuff simply doesn't compare to Square Soft's older games. 

Stupid lack of cash flow. >:(
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: thestradgirl on November 25, 2006, 02:05:39 PM
paintball's too violent for me.

I've never played. It scares me. :o

Damned Koreans

We're not a very violent people...

Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: redemption on November 25, 2006, 02:07:24 PM
We're not a very violent people...

Your movies say different
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Thistle on November 25, 2006, 02:08:55 PM
save energy for more important games.

Paintball? I love paintball, I have to say.


i captained a paintball team in south carolina.  many, many, many years ago
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: thestradgirl on November 25, 2006, 02:09:49 PM
We're not a very violent people...

Your movies say different

Hahahha.. yeah right after I posted that, I thought of Old Boy and Memories of Murder.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: thestradgirl on November 25, 2006, 02:10:22 PM
paintball's too violent for me.

I've never played. It scares me. :o

Damned Koreans

We're not a very violent people...



Damned Koreans

Heh, yeah.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on November 25, 2006, 02:13:41 PM
paintball's too violent for me.

I've never played. It scares me. :o

Damned Koreans

We're not a very violent people...



Damned Koreans

Heh, yeah.

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: katia6666 on December 14, 2006, 06:27:11 PM
i was talking to one of you Ho's (hehe) the other day, and she was saying law school is not at all what she expected.

clicky, like HS, but everyone is VERY quiet in class, and afraid to talk.
is this your experience?


AWWW BLUE, i just saw this and feel special, this thread was made after our conversation wasn't it!!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on December 14, 2006, 07:49:51 PM
i was talking to one of you Ho's (hehe) the other day, and she was saying law school is not at all what she expected.

clicky, like HS, but everyone is VERY quiet in class, and afraid to talk.
is this your experience?


AWWW BLUE, i just saw this and feel special, this thread was made after our conversation wasn't it!!

perhaps.

spill the dirt.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on February 14, 2007, 06:36:45 AM
so, one semester down and another almost 1/3 over.

how ya feeling now?
like it?  hate it?  at least its better than working?
anyone getting any new nookie?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Thistle on February 14, 2007, 12:33:10 PM
so, one semester down and another almost 1/3 over.

how ya feeling now?
like it?  hate it?  at least its better than working?
anyone getting any new nookie?

hate it.
working was much more fun.
same old nookie.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: aerynn on February 14, 2007, 01:52:39 PM
so, one semester down and another almost 1/3 over.

how ya feeling now?
like it?  hate it?  at least its better than working?
anyone getting any new nookie?

Depressed
Working is easier and more fulfilling, in that it doesn't erode one's sense of self, even if it does not validate one's sense of self.
Old nookie.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on February 14, 2007, 02:06:04 PM
so, one semester down and another almost 1/3 over.

how ya feeling now?
like it?  hate it?  at least its better than working?
anyone getting any new nookie?

Depressed
Working is easier and more fulfilling, in that it doesn't erode one's sense of self, even if it does not validate one's sense of self.
Old nookie.

I totally agree
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on February 14, 2007, 02:10:08 PM
so, one semester down and another almost 1/3 over.

how ya feeling now?
like it?  hate it?  at least its better than working?
anyone getting any new nookie?

Depressed
Working is easier and more fulfilling, in that it doesn't erode one's sense of self, even if it does not validate one's sense of self.
Old nookie.

have some examples?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Thistle on February 14, 2007, 02:10:48 PM
so, one semester down and another almost 1/3 over.

how ya feeling now?
like it?  hate it?  at least its better than working?
anyone getting any new nookie?

Depressed
Working is easier and more fulfilling, in that it doesn't erode one's sense of self, even if it does not validate one's sense of self.
Old nookie.

I totally agree


you agree with old nookie?  :D :D :D


so far i have resisted the temptation to sleep with my classmates.  well, outside of class that is.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on February 14, 2007, 02:55:08 PM
I still like it.

I'm burnt out though.

I need vacation, NOW

spring break coming soon.

come on down and s1ut your little heart out...
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on February 14, 2007, 03:25:42 PM
so, one semester down and another almost 1/3 over.

how ya feeling now?
like it?  hate it?  at least its better than working?
anyone getting any new nookie?

Depressed
Working is easier and more fulfilling, in that it doesn't erode one's sense of self, even if it does not validate one's sense of self.
Old nookie.

I totally agree


you agree with old nookie?  :D :D :D


so far i have resisted the temptation to sleep with my classmates.  well, outside of class that is.

No, sadly I have neither old nor new nookie :D

The temptation to sleep with certain classmates is strong, but there are a lot of innocents here
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Thistle on February 14, 2007, 05:17:59 PM
paintball's too violent for me.

I've never played. It scares me. :o

Damned Koreans

We're not a very violent people...



Damned Koreans

Heh, yeah.




not a violent people?  you haven't met my wife.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on February 14, 2007, 05:34:16 PM
so, one semester down and another almost 1/3 over.

how ya feeling now?
like it?  hate it?  at least its better than working?
anyone getting any new nookie?

Tired.
Like it, but don't love it, for the most part.  Occasionally hate it.  It's better than the everyday aspects of working, but not the really great moments of my old job.
New nookie, kinda, but not from the law school, for chrissakes!

Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on February 14, 2007, 05:39:06 PM
I'm exhausted now and really need a break.

Like parts of it but hate other parts of it. I've had some really awful jobs that almost nothing could beat, so I don't know if I'm the right one to ask about that. I don't really mind the classwork so much as the other aspects.

What's nookie?  :-\
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on February 14, 2007, 05:49:26 PM
I'm exhausted now and really need a break.

Like parts of it but hate other parts of it. I've had some really awful jobs that almost nothing could beat, so I don't know if I'm the right one to ask about that. I don't really mind the classwork so much as the other aspects.

What's nookie?  :-\

nookie is the same thing as whoopie.


and can y'all list what classes/aspects you love/hate?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on February 14, 2007, 05:55:54 PM
I'm exhausted now and really need a break.

Like parts of it but hate other parts of it. I've had some really awful jobs that almost nothing could beat, so I don't know if I'm the right one to ask about that. I don't really mind the classwork so much as the other aspects.

What's nookie?  :-\

nookie is the same thing as whoopie.


and can y'all list what classes/aspects you love/hate?

I was being facetious.

Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on February 14, 2007, 05:57:52 PM
I'm exhausted now and really need a break.

Like parts of it but hate other parts of it. I've had some really awful jobs that almost nothing could beat, so I don't know if I'm the right one to ask about that. I don't really mind the classwork so much as the other aspects.

What's nookie?  :-\

nookie is the same thing as whoopie.


and can y'all list what classes/aspects you love/hate?

I was being facetious.



ugh, and i missed it!!!!

well, not as much as you!  ;)  :P

heehee
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on February 16, 2007, 04:24:43 PM
the last couple of pages were sobering.

Oh, it's just brief-time.  Everyone'll snap out of it.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Guy Who 1-Ups You on February 16, 2007, 04:26:48 PM
the last couple of pages were sobering.

Oh, it's just brief-time.  Everyone'll snap out of it.

hehehe...snapping briefs. law school is like high school!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Guy Who 1-Ups You on February 16, 2007, 04:32:44 PM
i haven't heard one person say anything positive about law school.  not once since september.  that's pretty crazy.

really? on here or IRL? I've heard them in both, so maybe you're in the depressing threads?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on February 16, 2007, 04:33:20 PM
i haven't heard one person say anything positive about law school.  not once since september.  that's pretty crazy.

That's not true at all!  I like law school just fine, and I am a sourpuss.  Talk to the Michigan and Penn kids.  They're all psyched all the time.  And Archival and Margee seem to like it down in TX too.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Guy Who 1-Ups You on February 16, 2007, 04:46:30 PM
i haven't heard one person say anything positive about law school.  not once since september.  that's pretty crazy.

That's not true at all!  I like law school just fine, and I am a sourpuss. Talk to the Michigan and Penn kids.  They're all psyched all the time. And Archival and Margee seem to like it down in TX too.

:D

Most of the time, anyway.

I really do enjoy being a law student. It hurts sometimes, but it's a good hurt.

Too easy.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Guy Who 1-Ups You on February 16, 2007, 04:48:47 PM
i haven't heard one person say anything positive about law school.  not once since september.  that's pretty crazy.

That's not true at all!  I like law school just fine, and I am a sourpuss. Talk to the Michigan and Penn kids.  They're all psyched all the time. And Archival and Margee seem to like it down in TX too.

:D

Most of the time, anyway.

I really do enjoy being a law student. It hurts sometimes, but it's a good hurt.

Too easy.

Talk to your mom about too easy.

She's the one that taught me.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: aerynn on February 16, 2007, 05:02:02 PM
First semester was a good time.  This semester is rough . . . just . . . rough.

/Which is how your mom likes it, I hear.
//Trying not to be depressing
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on February 16, 2007, 05:38:34 PM
naughtiness and perverted flirting in ONE OF MY THREADS?!?!?!

I never thought Id see the day...
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Jolie Was Here on February 16, 2007, 06:08:35 PM
Last semester I really really loved law school.  Those positive feelings are currently under review and labelled as "highly suspect"; however, I'm holding out some faith that someday (read: 2L) I will feel that way once more. 

Holy hell this semester is tough!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: The Poster on February 16, 2007, 06:10:47 PM
Last semester I really really loved law school. Those positive feelings are currently under review and labelled as "highly suspect"; however, I'm holding out some faith that someday (read: 2L) I will feel that way once more.

Holy hell this semester is tough!

Imagine how awful it is for people not at Michigan...
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Jolie Was Here on February 16, 2007, 06:15:29 PM
Last semester I really really loved law school. Those positive feelings are currently under review and labelled as "highly suspect"; however, I'm holding out some faith that someday (read: 2L) I will feel that way once more.

Holy hell this semester is tough!

Imagine how awful it is for people not at Michigan...

Yeah, for real!  :D  Actually, one of my best friends is a 1L at Harvard.  She called me last night near tears (very out of character) and broke into the whole "I hate law school hate my life what am I doing?" routine.  And she recently spoke to one of our friends who's a 1L at GWU - same story.  As tough as it was to hear about my friends' pain, I couldn't help thinking, "Goody.  It's universal." 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: The Poster on February 16, 2007, 06:16:18 PM
Last semester I really really loved law school. Those positive feelings are currently under review and labelled as "highly suspect"; however, I'm holding out some faith that someday (read: 2L) I will feel that way once more.

Holy hell this semester is tough!

Imagine how awful it is for people not at Michigan...

Yeah, for real! :D Actually, one of my best friends is a 1L at Harvard. She called me last night near tears (very out of character) and broke into the whole "I hate law school hate my life what am I doing?" routine. And she recently spoke to one of our friends who's a 1L at GWU - same story. As tough as it was to about my friends' pain, I couldn't help thinking, "Goody. It's universal."

So, law school is just bad everwhere. Good to know.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Jolie Was Here on February 16, 2007, 06:21:03 PM
Last semester I really really loved law school. Those positive feelings are currently under review and labelled as "highly suspect"; however, I'm holding out some faith that someday (read: 2L) I will feel that way once more.

Holy hell this semester is tough!

Imagine how awful it is for people not at Michigan...

Yeah, for real! :D Actually, one of my best friends is a 1L at Harvard. She called me last night near tears (very out of character) and broke into the whole "I hate law school hate my life what am I doing?" routine. And she recently spoke to one of our friends who's a 1L at GWU - same story. As tough as it was to hear about my friends' pain, I couldn't help thinking, "Goody. It's universal."

So, law school is just bad everwhere. Good to know.

Well, 2nd semester of 1L is bad everywhere.  I still believe that the rest of it will be more like 1st semester. 

Sigh, ever the optimist. 

ETA: Just reread my previous post.  Good to know that law school has not only made me fat and ugly and destroyed my will to live - it's also turned me into a heartless, bad friend.  I'm going to make a great lawyer!

E(again)TA: Michigan, are you sure you want me to talk to all these prospectives?   
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: The Poster on February 16, 2007, 06:26:19 PM
I guess I'm not getting why 2nd semester would be tougher than the first. You don't have to brief cases if you don't want to, nothing is new-new, workload seems the same..

ah red., I've missed you.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on February 16, 2007, 06:28:27 PM
I guess I'm not getting why 2nd semester would be tougher than the first.  You don't have to brief cases if you don't want to, nothing is new-new, workload seems the same..

For me, second semester is much easier than the first.  My hardest (and only one-semester, five-credit) class was last semester, and I had a worse schedule over all.  I am more acclimated to the place, know whom to avoid, etc.  

And I never briefed.  It really seemed like a waste of time.  But it works for some people.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: cesco on February 16, 2007, 06:39:25 PM
so, one semester down and another almost 1/3 over.

how ya feeling now?
like it?  hate it?  at least its better than working?
anyone getting any new nookie?

Im going to be an optimist on this thread - even though it is Friday night and I am in the library.  :(

I really like school. I used to work 60+ hours a week in a very stressful job that I didnt like at all.  Now I put in that much time, but I get to wear jeans and jammies instead of suits, and I get to study on my own schedule.  Plus - I find all of the material pretty interesting.  I know this makes me a huge dork - but I cant help it.   

I do think that Legal Writing/Research takes up way too much time - Id take 2 other "regular" classes just to get rid of it.



Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Jolie Was Here on February 16, 2007, 06:58:50 PM
Yeah, our workload is much worse this semester.  We have the three doctrinal courses, plus an elective, plus Legal Practice.  Luck of the draw dealt my section tougher courses this semester (imo, at least - reasonable minds could differ on this one.)  Our Legal Practice class has a lot more work this time around (we've already done the first oral argument and two writing assignments and it's the second week in February.)  Plus we had to worry about finding summer jobs.  Plus (not to trot this one out again, but...) I never got a break between semesters, so the tank is running dry.  Yeah, I know, poor Jolie.  ::)  Anyway, I think it's with good reason that we're all finding this semester more stressful. 

p.s. I never briefed either.  Not my bag.   
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: cesco on February 16, 2007, 07:03:28 PM
  Our Legal Practice class has a lot more work this time around


Mine does too. Last semester it seemed like forever before we had assignments due - now we have huge assignments due almost weekly. hmm... what a pain in the ass.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Jolie Was Here on February 16, 2007, 07:03:47 PM
wusses

And to think some people didn't realize you were red.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: The Poster on February 16, 2007, 07:14:22 PM
wusses

And to think some people didn't realize you were red.

Are those the same people who would mistake you for red., Jolie?  :D
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: H4CS on February 17, 2007, 12:01:25 AM
wusses

And to think some people didn't realize you were red.

And to think some people still believe in the single red theory (the magic red theory to conspiracy theorists).
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on February 17, 2007, 06:18:08 AM
Yeah, our workload is much worse this semester.  We have the three doctrinal courses, plus an elective, plus Legal Practice.  Luck of the draw dealt my section tougher courses this semester (imo, at least - reasonable minds could differ on this one.)  Our Legal Practice class has a lot more work this time around (we've already done the first oral argument and two writing assignments and it's the second week in February.)  Plus we had to worry about finding summer jobs.  Plus (not to trot this one out again, but...) I never got a break between semesters, so the tank is running dry.  Yeah, I know, poor Jolie.  ::)  Anyway, I think it's with good reason that we're all finding this semester more stressful. 

p.s. I never briefed either.  Not my bag.   

Wow, that's rough. My school is treating legal writing like an actual 2-credit course this time so we have one assignment and one oral argument. I still think this semester is worse because I really don't like any of my classes and it seems like all my classmates share the same sentiments.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on February 17, 2007, 07:42:44 AM
First semester was a good time.  This semester is rough . . . just . . . rough.

/Which is how your mom likes it, I hear.
//Trying not to be depressing

TITCR

I'm sure I said good things about law school last semester, but this semester is about 58395174586127486726 times worse, so it's pretty hard to be positive when I feel like I'm constantly getting my ass kicked.

Our section got bad professors for classes this semester and that makes it tough all around.  These bad professors also upped the reading load, and one upped it even more with his stupid tests, so we are basically drowning under work. 

I briefed all the time last semester, but I'm starting to slide back on it because I have time.  I ended up starting a Torts Pool with 2 friends so we split the reading 3 ways and I'm probably going to have to do the same with Property.  I'd rather read *&^% on my own, but I can't get through it all very closely anymore.

Plus the whole OCI/summer job search looming makes everything more stressful.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: brown on February 17, 2007, 09:02:18 AM
wusses

And to think some people didn't realize you were red.

And to think some people still believe in the single red theory (the magic red theory to conspiracy theorists).

She's the lawschooldiscussion.org lonleygirl15.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: The Poster on February 17, 2007, 09:06:14 AM
wusses

And to think some people didn't realize you were red.

And to think some people still believe in the single red theory (the magic red theory to conspiracy theorists).

and to think they still don't realize you were actually red. all along.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: aerynn on February 17, 2007, 09:47:47 AM
wusses

And to think some people didn't realize you were red.

And to think some people still believe in the single red theory (the magic red theory to conspiracy theorists).

and to think they still don't realize you were actually red. all along.

I don't think she was red.  I don't think anyone was red.  It was all just a construct.  ;)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Huey P. on February 17, 2007, 10:31:21 AM
i haven't heard one person say anything positive about law school.  not once since september.  that's pretty crazy.

I don't think it's as bad as it's made out to be (e.g. the suffocating workload -- largely imagined, or else unnecessarily self-imposed).

Okay, that's not quite positive.

Um, if it turns out that I like being a lawyer, then I will be glad I attended law school, since it's, you know, a necessary precondition.

Granted, that's conditional and perhaps unlikely to come true.

But then, even before law school I didn't expect to like it.  I just couldn't think of anything better to do.  So . . .


yeah, that's not exactly a cheery thumbs-up now, is it?

here's a question: is the following, generally speaking, true?

1. if you found the class easy, then you'll bomb the exam relative to your expectations and your other grades
2. if you found the class moderately challenging, you'll ace the exam
3. if you found the class quite difficult, you'll hit the median
3. if you

replace the word "class" with "exam" and I'd say there'd be some truth to it.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on February 17, 2007, 10:58:44 AM
For me it was:

Easiest/most worthless/never paid attention class (I did study hard for the final): A+
Not so easy/most interesting class: A-
Seemed easy at the time/not so easy exam: A- (but lower than the other A-)
Hardest class/had no idea what was going on half the time: A-

Hmm... maybe this really shows nothing.  There was only a variance of .6 between the highest and lowest.  Maybe it would mean more if I said that my grade in the hardest class was the 3rd highest grade, my grade in the easiest class was the highest, and my grade in the second easiest was 6th.  That probably shows nothing as well, except maybe that I'm a showoff. :D
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on February 17, 2007, 01:48:18 PM

My most difficult class had an optional discussion section with a 3L who'd aced the class when he took it.  Made all the difference in the world on the exam.

ETA: I hope this is different at other schools, but at mine the difference between the A+ exam and slightly lower grades was all about wordcount.  The more you could regurgitate, the better your grade.  Once you hit all the substantive issues in an organized way, you just needed to fill up space. 

the 3L thing sounds like a great idea.  i wonder if there were people who didn't opt in?

the word-count thing verges on the barmy.

At many schools, discussion sections are limited to people who the school has determined need the help the most. At my school they used to be open to everyone, but because one was so popular they changed it to invite-only based on "need." The school also used to have graded practice exams, but it got rid of that this year too.

As for the length issue, most of my profs use word counts so that is not the case here at all.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: aerynn on February 17, 2007, 02:09:18 PM
1. At my school we have discussion sessions with 2L or 3Ls who got As in the class for each class.  Anyone can come.  Most don't, because it is hard to follow if you are behind in the reading and nearly everyone is at this point.

2. My exams had either time or space constraints such that there just wasn't the time or space to say everything you needed to.  I had a list of issues I spotted that I didn't have room to discuss.

3. Organization does count.  One professor said that he gave points to people who targeted the important issues first, rather than those who just wrote what occurred to them as they spotted the issues.  Pretty nice trick on a timed exam.

4. I don't think anyone got marked off for saying extra stuff.  The time it takes to write more words but convey less information comes out elsewhere though: either you have wasted limited time or limited space discussing one issue when a more precise person could discuss two.

5. Legal writing, for us, is an exercise is being brief and precise.

6. This semester sucks for a number of reasons: classes are harder for me, two of my professors are not as good as last semester, legal writing has gotten to be a bigger workload, moot court tryouts were a bitter, heart-breaking disappointment for everyone who didn't make it, especially since they are a LOT of work to prepare for, interviews create stress and foster competitiveness, constant rejection in terms of not getting interviews or not getting the job when other classmates are, the utter randomness of everything: two people applied to the same jobs and one got an interview with Employer A and the other got and interview with Employer B, but there doesn't seem any reason why A rejected one person and B rejected the other.  Grades were also so random: random to the effort expended, random to the feeling walking out of the exam, random to the degree to which it seems like you grasp the material. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: aerynn on February 17, 2007, 02:14:13 PM
Thanks for the info.  I'll have to pay attention to what my own professors want.   >:(

It is like trying to use Nostradamus's quatrains to predict the future.  Stuff makes sense after and you can say, "Oh okay, that's what he meant," but it is very tough to  use it as a guide to future information.

Maybe I only feel this way because my professors posted sample exams but NO SAMPLE ANSWERS!  Arg, I cannot tell you how frustrating that is.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Thistle on February 17, 2007, 02:22:14 PM
I think it really depends on the professor. A couple of my professors were pretty clear that they preferred concise exams, and it shows in the sample exams that are posted.

My grades were somewhere between median and top third for all of my classes except one (which was my least favorite in terms of subject matter, but my best grade)...the only person I compared grades with had very similar grades. He wrote substantially more than me on all of the exams, and I did (sometimes very) slightly better than him.


i had a professor who said, "i gave you a b because you only wrote 3300 words.  no a paper writes less than 5000 words."

ok fine.  i'll just write "@#!* you" 850 times.  :P
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: aerynn on February 17, 2007, 02:27:09 PM
Maybe I only feel this way because my professors posted sample exams but NO SAMPLE ANSWERS!  Arg, I cannot tell you how frustrating that is.

That's so awful it's funny.

One professor posted a list of questions that a good answer would address.  The single spaced list of questions took 4 pages.

We had 4 pages to address the questions, double space.   >:(
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on February 17, 2007, 02:28:17 PM
1. At my school we have discussion sessions with 2L or 3Ls who got As in the class for each class.  Anyone can come.  Most don't, because it is hard to follow if you are behind in the reading and nearly everyone is at this point.


6. This semester sucks for a number of reasons: classes are harder for me, two of my professors are not as good as last semester, legal writing has gotten to be a bigger workload, moot court tryouts were a bitter, heart-breaking disappointment for everyone who didn't make it, especially since they are a LOT of work to prepare for, interviews create stress and foster competitiveness, constant rejection in terms of not getting interviews or not getting the job when other classmates are, the utter randomness of everything: two people applied to the same jobs and one got an interview with Employer A and the other got and interview with Employer B, but there doesn't seem any reason why A rejected one person and B rejected the other.  Grades were also so random: random to the effort expended, random to the feeling walking out of the exam, random to the degree to which it seems like you grasp the material. 

That's great that you have review sessions open to everyone. Most people tend to keep up at my school, but I think of those that were in last semester only the ones who did reasonably well stayed in.

I'm having the same semester with regards to professors. I have one repeat from last semester that everyone loves, but otherwise most people seem to be really struggling with the material. We have no curve so it's impossible to really know how well we did with regards to the rest of the class. I've heard so many speculations about the median that I can't even begin to estimate where I might fall in the class. People are panicking about finding jobs because our grades are typically so much lower than the grades at our similarly ranked counterparts.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Thistle on February 17, 2007, 02:32:29 PM
i had a professor who said, "i gave you a b because you only wrote 3300 words.  no a paper writes less than 5000 words."

did you yell at him?  i would have.


no, just asked him if he would publish his price list
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on February 17, 2007, 03:31:03 PM
We have no curve so it's impossible to really know how well we did with regards to the rest of the class. I've heard so many speculations about the median that I can't even begin to estimate where I might fall in the class.

see, now that would drive me 'round the bend.

We do get a grade distribution posted at some point in the semester, but that point has not arrived yet. It doesn't look like the spring grades were posted until August, so we may be waiting until April for all I know. All we're told is that the median for 1Ls is "approximately" a certain grade- which gives pretty much no information whatsoever. Approximately could mean +-.01 or +-.3 for all we know.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: H4CS on February 17, 2007, 03:42:44 PM
Maybe I only feel this way because my professors posted sample exams but NO SAMPLE ANSWERS!  Arg, I cannot tell you how frustrating that is.

That's why you make friends with 2Ls and 3Ls by drinking them under the table at the start of the year.  By far the most useful info I had came from A exams given to me by friends in those courses.  More specifically, A exams from the smart kids who shared them with the kids dumb enough to hang out with me.  No kidding, this was hugely useful.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on February 17, 2007, 03:45:25 PM
Maybe I only feel this way because my professors posted sample exams but NO SAMPLE ANSWERS!  Arg, I cannot tell you how frustrating that is.

That's why you make friends with 2Ls and 3Ls by drinking them under the table at the start of the year.  By far the most useful info I had came from A exams given to me by friends in those courses.  More specifically, A exams from the smart kids who shared them with the kids dumb enough to hang out with me.  No kidding, this was hugely useful.

I think it really depends on the person. I know someone who had good mentor relationships with 2Ls/3Ls who made it onto law review but still struggled on exams. There's a lot more to doing well on an exam than just knowing what is required. I know I suffer from test anxiety during the studying phase so that tends to prevent me from doing as well as I could on actual exams. I know other people with the same problem.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: H4CS on February 17, 2007, 03:47:10 PM
There's a lot more to doing well on an exam than just knowing what is required.

Of course.  I just was commenting that the best way to get the information mentioned above was to befriend older students.  I'm not saying it's sufficient to guarantee success.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on February 17, 2007, 03:51:15 PM
There's a lot more to doing well on an exam than just knowing what is required.

Of course.  I just was commenting that the best way to get the information mentioned above was to befriend older students.  I'm not saying it's sufficient to guarantee success.

I'm not saying you're implying that, but with everyone who comes on here top 5% touting how they did that well, I think people can get the mistaken impression that if you do x, y, and z you will do well. Those of us who aren't in the top 25% just aren't advertising our rank (not like I'd even be able to if I wanted to).
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: aerynn on February 17, 2007, 03:51:26 PM
There's a lot more to doing well on an exam than just knowing what is required.

Of course.  I just was commenting that the best way to get the information mentioned above was to befriend older students.  I'm not saying it's sufficient to guarantee success.

It is an honor violation to get test answers from upperclassmen.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: H4CS on February 17, 2007, 04:05:36 PM
It is an honor violation to get test answers from upperclassmen.

Trust me, some of the things I did to get them would get me kicked out much sooner than this.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on February 17, 2007, 04:07:50 PM
It is an honor violation to get test answers from upperclassmen.

Trust me, some of the things I did to get them would get me kicked out much sooner than this.

How do you even get the answers? I assumed you meant just asking them for general tips, not getting actual answers. Most of m profs don't make the exam until a few days before the test.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: H4CS on February 17, 2007, 04:13:53 PM
How do you even get the answers? I assumed you meant just asking them for general tips, not getting actual answers. Most of m profs don't make the exam until a few days before the test.

Woah, you must be drunk and it's early even for me.  And I've been drinking.

I got A answers from previous years.  Even when professors would give sample student answers, they often were a combination of good answers from different students which overstated what it took to get an A.  Having real A exams allowed me to better understand what that looked like.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: aerynn on February 17, 2007, 04:20:44 PM
Also not helpful for the dreaded closed book, multiple choice.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on February 17, 2007, 04:47:23 PM
Sample exams with no sample answers?!

For my Contracts class last semester, my professor sent us his "exam de-briefs" for the last FIVE years that had all the exam essay questions with the best student answers.  Very helpful.  He sent us a de-brief in early January as well for our test and I think that's a great way to do things.  I wish more professors did something like that.

As far as the word count/volume thing, I've pretty much decided that when a professor tells you they don't want you to regurgitate everything you know, it's bull.  The ones I pulled everything I could out of the air/my ass were my best grades.  Seriously, I was putting in stuff that was probably BARELY relevant to the problem just to show what I knew and probably spotting issues that didn't even exist.  This semester my Property professor puts the "don't regurgitate" disclaimer on the exam, but he wants us to throw tons of random *&^% back at him and if you miss it, you get points off. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on February 17, 2007, 05:06:49 PM
How do you even get the answers? I assumed you meant just asking them for general tips, not getting actual answers. Most of m profs don't make the exam until a few days before the test.

Woah, you must be drunk and it's early even for me.  And I've been drinking.

I got A answers from previous years.  Even when professors would give sample student answers, they often were a combination of good answers from different students which overstated what it took to get an A.  Having real A exams allowed me to better understand what that looked like.

Not drunk, but your solution isn't applicable in most cases. It's not helpful when you don't have profs who actually teach that class regularly, which is the case for 2/4 profs I had last semester and possibly all the profs I have this semester. At any rate, I'm not going to go breaking the honor code to bring up my grade.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on February 17, 2007, 05:25:56 PM
Yeah, our workload is much worse this semester.  We have the three doctrinal courses, plus an elective, plus Legal Practice.

That's what we've had both semesters.  They baby you at Michigan.  They baby them at Boalt as well.

Yeah, I also have 4 (substantive) + 1 (practical -- legal writing and research or legal practice) each semester.  I think life sounds so much easier with a 3 + 1, but I'm not someone who likes to shift gears.

Maybe I only feel this way because my professors posted sample exams but NO SAMPLE ANSWERS!  Arg, I cannot tell you how frustrating that is.

That's why you make friends with 2Ls and 3Ls by drinking them under the table at the start of the year.  By far the most useful info I had came from A exams given to me by friends in those courses.  More specifically, A exams from the smart kids who shared them with the kids dumb enough to hang out with me.  No kidding, this was hugely useful.

This is probably where having a personality would come in handy.  It'd only work in the classes with take-home exams (otherwise, our exams are off limits to us -- and sharing them would be an honor code violation), but my profs in those classes didn't post sample answers to their sample exams, either, so it seems like a good enough idea.  Of course, I am much too lazy to have really done practice exams or whatever anyway.  I mean, I barely outlined.

As for meiji's question about exam easiness/grades, I think it depends much more on the professor and the exam style than on the relative ease of the course.  By far my lowest grade (below the median, yo!) was in my hardest class, with the hardest exam, from the most sadistic professor.  We all agree that the test didn't match what we read and discussed in class and that the grade distribution seems essentially random.  That said, I probably would have done better had I taken a pill before the exam.  I spent at least 40 of my 210 minutes staring at the clock with hot tears streaming down my face.

In my other classes, for whatever it's worth, I finished in the top 10-20% (don't know more specifically than that as I only know the ranges implied by the letter grades, and I did not get the A+ in any class), and they ran from incredibly easy to moderately difficult.  I don't know if this matters, but I do attend a second-tier school.  While I think my classmates are very bright and thoughtful, some might assume they areweaker competition than at higher-ranked institutions (I don't, but I don't know).

As for volume, again, I really think it depends on the professor.  Some of our professors clearly rewarded concise, well-organized answers while others went straight through counting up checks on a list, the more the merrier (write both "quasi contract" and "quantum meruit" in case you get a point for each).
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: last light on February 17, 2007, 05:34:01 PM
Pussies.

We had 6 courses my 1L year at Santa Clara. That'll teach me to be a retard on the LSAT.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on February 17, 2007, 05:52:07 PM
Yeah, this was what annoyed me.  I got this line from a new-ish prof, and I really think she misunderestimated her own evaluation techniques.  Entirely based on gossip, of course.

I was plagued by professor misstatements all through undergrad.  Many, if not most, professors claim some highly defined grading process but deviate from it more often than not in practice.

Discussing grading practices with students who have had that professor was my only solid recourse.

Doesn't work for new professors though.   >:(

Yeah, it's another one of those things where you used to get a sheet of paper with the "rules" for the class at the beginning of the year/semester (this happened a lot in high school) and a day/week/month in you realize that the whole thing is bull. 

My evil whore of a Property professor gives us so many bull misstatements it's like machine gun fire. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Kirk Lazarus on February 17, 2007, 06:23:58 PM
I spent at least 40 of my 210 minutes staring at the clock with hot tears streaming down my face.

Ugh. I did that in CivPro--a solid 45 minutes with no clue what i should even be writing, staring at the ceiling, and going to the bathroom for a little cry. Ugly.

 :D
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Kirk Lazarus on February 17, 2007, 06:28:43 PM
I spent at least 40 of my 210 minutes staring at the clock with hot tears streaming down my face.

Ugh. I did that in CivPro--a solid 45 minutes with no clue what i should even be writing, staring at the ceiling, and going to the bathroom for a little cry. Ugly.

 :D

Hey! Don't laugh at my pain!

your pain is my pain.  :)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on February 17, 2007, 10:01:57 PM
Hi Bond!!  How's your sexy Bond lady? ;)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on February 18, 2007, 10:58:22 AM
I spent at least 40 of my 210 minutes staring at the clock with hot tears streaming down my face.

Ugh. I did that in CivPro--a solid 45 minutes with no clue what i should even be writing, staring at the ceiling, and going to the bathroom for a little cry. Ugly.

r u kidding?

wouldnt it have been much more productive and morale improving to key your teachers car?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on March 14, 2007, 06:48:04 PM
anyone run into a

well, MY daddy is so and so....

yet?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on May 09, 2007, 08:44:28 AM
its the end of your first yr

what have you learnt?

anyone get any NEW nookie?

and NO Cady, wookie nookie does NOT count!

:P
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on May 09, 2007, 08:54:08 AM
Why you gotta discriminate against wookies?


I still like law school, ut I haven't gotten grades yet. I learned I'm even better at procrastinating than I thought. Like right now, I should be packing, but I'm posting this instead.

what good stuff have you learned?

what surprised you (other than the procrastinating)?

what advice do u have or those soon to follow in your footsteps?





notice i ddint say hoof steps  ;)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on May 09, 2007, 09:00:54 AM
I might find the energy to respond substantively later, but for now I'd like to note my appreciation that you didn't insinuate that I'm a  donkey, and my displeasure that you did not insinuate that I'm a she-devil.

i woulda on the 2nd, but your always claiming you get ZERO action.

maybe a she-saint?







snicker, snicker  ;D
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on May 09, 2007, 09:43:39 AM
this is open to everyone in law school right now, btw...
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on May 14, 2007, 07:19:49 PM
still waiting...
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: t... on June 03, 2007, 08:34:56 PM
...
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: chevelle on June 03, 2007, 09:40:14 PM
its the end of your first yr

what have you learnt?


That Red Bull and coffee don't mix well. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 03, 2007, 10:05:09 PM
My advice: use supplements.  I wasn't really tuned into that until the last week of this semester, but it really is helpful even if you think you're above it somehow.  Also, don't waste time briefing, but I've been saying this all along and people aren't going to listen to me.  Finally, picking up a little dumpling doesn't hurt, stresswise.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: chevelle on June 03, 2007, 10:15:50 PM
I've heard from quite a few people that you shouldn't brief; however, isn't it just one of those things in that you have to walk before you can run?

I don't really see the point of formally briefing...I would just take a few quick notes on each case so I knew the important facts and the decision.

Supplements are good...but I've had a couple that had incorrect information in them (I think the Legalines one for Yeazell in Civ Pro had the wrong holding for a case)...most of them are really helpful though.

I think color-coding cases is silly though.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 03, 2007, 10:16:42 PM
I've heard from quite a few people that you shouldn't brief; however, isn't it just one of those things in that you have to walk before you can run?

No, it's not at all like that, since I never briefed (half of one case for the first day).  That said, it may come down to individual preference and learning style (as a lot of this stuff does).  Some of my friends who still brief are also doing very well in school.  I just think it's a waste of time -- for me -- and I find it bizarre that schools push it as the only or primary way of preparing for 1L classes.  My process is like this: write down the holding, a few procedural quirks, move on.  Use the extra time to read more carefully, to outline, and (now that I know!) to check out supplements.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 03, 2007, 10:21:50 PM
Supplements are good...but I've had a couple that had incorrect information in them (I think the Legalines one for Yeazell in Civ Pro had the wrong holding for a case)...most of them are really helpful though.

I've heard this!  I guess that's why it's really important to use them as supplements and not substitutes.  I just really like the "big picture" since I'm someone who can get pretty bogged down in details.  I used only Dressler's Understanding Criminal Law (assigned for my crim class), Glannon's Civpro E&E (assigned for my civpro class), and the Gilbert's property book (for which Dukeminier was the original author -- and we, like everyone else, used the Dukeminier casebook) (not assigned).
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on June 03, 2007, 10:29:04 PM
Only substandard law students need more than the cases themselves.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: t... on June 03, 2007, 10:29:17 PM
Am I shooting myself in the foot if I don't care too much about grades or law review (because I really don't).

I'm much more interested in a specific niche, and it seems that spending that extra time networking and interning would be much more fruitful than spending countless hours editing or studying to try to jump from the median to top 10 percent (obviously I'm not interesting in doing poorly, either).

Thoughts?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Hank Rearden on June 03, 2007, 10:32:28 PM
Only substandard law students need more than the cases themselves.

I gather you write your own supplements, yes?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 03, 2007, 10:36:26 PM
Only substandard law students need more than the cases themselves.

Heh.  Thanks, Bb.  I never said I needed them.  I just found in the one class where I used one that was not assigned that it helped me organize my outline.  I recommend it to others.  In any case, we all know you're not as detail-oriented as I am; for me, it was a good corrective strategy.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Hank Rearden on June 03, 2007, 10:37:53 PM
The devil is in the details, or something...
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 03, 2007, 10:42:23 PM
Am I shooting myself in the foot if I don't care too much about grades or law review (because I really don't).

I'm much more interested in a specific niche, and it seems that spending that extra time networking and interning would be much more fruitful than spending countless hours editing or studying to try to jump from the median to top 10 percent (obviously I'm not interesting in doing poorly, either).

Thoughts?

While there is a certain amount of arbitrariness to law school grades, I think you'll find that you do just fine without going nuts in the library as long as you are reasonably diligent.  

I can't answer this question for you except to say that your niche is a fairly competitive one and you probably owe it to yourself to try to earn the best opportunities you can.  This means good grades, possibly clerking (which most people think is significantly aided by being on LR).  That said, your internship placements, clinics, and networking are probably more important than the difference between having a note in a less competitive journal and being articles editor on LR or something.  

For me, I have said all along that I primarily care about my grades in order to keep my scholarships.  I am learning that I would like some of the other opportunities good grades open up.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 03, 2007, 10:42:55 PM
The devil is in the details, or something...

;)

What nerve your friend with the bread has, Hank.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Hank Rearden on June 03, 2007, 10:52:47 PM
The devil is in the details, or something...

;)

What nerve your friend with the bread has, Hank.

Rough weeekend for your Mets.   :-\

But I did notice Gagne continues to pile up the saves.   >:(
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 03, 2007, 10:57:56 PM
Rough weeekend for your Mets.   :-\

But I did notice Gagne continues to pile up the saves.   >:(

Eh, he hasn't done a lot for me and I have a wealth of closers (I did appreciate his win).  And Dukes was a steal for you!  He's batted over .350 since you took him off my hands!

I'm not too worried about the Mets.  The Diamondbacks are a pretty good young team, and they came in really hot.  Plus, it was the first series we lost to anyone other than the Braves all season.  I'll take it.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on June 04, 2007, 05:08:31 AM
Am I shooting myself in the foot if I don't care too much about grades or law review (because I really don't).

I'm much more interested in a specific niche, and it seems that spending that extra time networking and interning would be much more fruitful than spending countless hours editing or studying to try to jump from the median to top 10 percent (obviously I'm not interesting in doing poorly, either).

Thoughts?

While there is a certain amount of arbitrariness to law school grades, I think you'll find that you do just fine without going nuts in the library as long as you are reasonably diligent. 

I can't answer this question for you except to say that your niche is a fairly competitive one and you probably owe it to yourself to try to earn the best opportunities you can.  This means good grades, possibly clerking (which most people think is significantly aided by being on LR).  That said, your internship placements, clinics, and networking are probably more important than the difference between having a note in a less competitive journal and being articles editor on LR or something. 

For me, I have said all along that I primarily care about my grades in order to keep my scholarships.  I am learning that I would like some of the other opportunities good grades open up.

I think there's a misconception that the people who don't do so well aren't reasonably diligent. I'm not the greatest student in law school primarily because I get massive test anxiety, and I have another friend who works much harder than I do and tends to do even worse on exams. Both of us are above average in legal writing though, so it's not that we don't get it.

A lot of times supplements really are necessary if your professor isn't so hot, but other times they can do more harm than good.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 04, 2007, 01:21:04 PM
I think there's a misconception that the people who don't do so well aren't reasonably diligent. I'm not the greatest student in law school primarily because I get massive test anxiety, and I have another friend who works much harder than I do and tends to do even worse on exams. Both of us are above average in legal writing though, so it's not that we don't get it.

I agree wholeheartedly and I empathize with your test anxiety, qc.  I should have stressed that reasonable diligence can guarantee only fine (but not excellent) grades, and then only absent specific problems like test anxiety or a personal crisis on test day.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on June 04, 2007, 01:38:21 PM
are y'all happy with your schools?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Jolie Was Here on June 04, 2007, 01:39:34 PM
very
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on June 04, 2007, 04:29:48 PM
yes
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on June 04, 2007, 04:51:55 PM
are y'all happy with your schools?

It could be better; personal reasons.

Same here.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: chevelle on June 04, 2007, 05:47:38 PM
sometimes

sometimes i also want to throw myself off a roof
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Astro on June 04, 2007, 05:54:59 PM
I can't believe I'm doing this to a Blue thread, but...


BAFF
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 04, 2007, 07:28:27 PM
I agree wholeheartedly and I empathize with your test anxiety, qc.  I should have stressed that reasonable diligence can guarantee only fine (but not excellent) grades, and then only absent specific problems like test anxiety or a personal crisis on test day.

Oh ho ho

::thinks back to an eighteen month old thread on a related matter::


I'm not sure the two are related, but I am open, as always, to learning more about my foibles and inconsistencies.  Go for it. :D
 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 04, 2007, 07:44:44 PM
I'm not sure the two are related, but I am open, as always, to learning more about my foibles and inconsistencies.  Go for it. :D

me -- reasonable diligence can guarantee a fine but [not excellent] raw score barring specific problems like test anxiety
p -- reasonable diligence can guarantee a fine but [not excellent] grades barring specific problems like test anxiety

reasonable diligence = staying awake in UG & life generally;
fine raw score = 90-94

 :)

Nah, I'm talking about people who have made it into law school already, having passed through the LSAT hoop.  Furthermore, getting a B+ on a law school exam allows much more room for error than a 90+ raw score on the LSAT. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 04, 2007, 08:15:46 PM

my worse grade occurred in a class for which I studied diligently.  however, on test day i choked.

Me too. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on June 04, 2007, 08:31:36 PM
more details please!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 04, 2007, 08:40:33 PM
In my case, it was a very difficult exam written by a young professor who didn't understand our limitations (and who went to a school without grades where -- he admitted -- he always thought "impossible" exams were the most thought-provoking).  I hadn't slept a wink the night before and came in very anxious.  By the middle of the exam (after the twelve short answer and the first essay, a philosophical essay), I was staring at the clock watching fifteen minutes pass by, hot tears running down my face, frozen in my seat.  It was really disappointing as this was by far my favorite first-semester class.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on June 04, 2007, 08:56:57 PM
well, how did those grades end up?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: John Blackthorne on June 04, 2007, 09:27:05 PM
well, how did those grades end up?

nope
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: chevelle on June 04, 2007, 09:40:13 PM
I only have 2 grades for this semester so far...I am sure the worst is yet to come.  :(
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: chevelle on June 04, 2007, 09:42:24 PM
I only have 2 grades for this semester so far...I am sure the worst is yet to come.  :(

you dislike law school too, dontcha? 

No, I actually don't, but I don't have high hopes for the grades I did not get yet.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Thistle on June 04, 2007, 09:44:43 PM
In my case, it was a very difficult exam written by a young professor who didn't understand our limitations (and who went to a school without grades where -- he admitted -- he always thought "impossible" exams were the most thought-provoking).  I hadn't slept a wink the night before and came in very anxious.  By the middle of the exam (after the twelve short answer and the first essay, a philosophical essay), I was staring at the clock watching fifteen minutes pass by, hot tears running down my face, frozen in my seat.  It was really disappointing as this was by far my favorite first-semester class.


i invented particularly vile curse words for question 2 of civ pro, which i sat and stared at for 45 minutes before writing a word.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: chevelle on June 04, 2007, 09:49:59 PM

i thought you were the one with the bf, and if he hadn't been there for you you wouldn't have made it thru the year.

Having a boyfriend has nothing to do with the grades I think I got....
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: chevelle on June 04, 2007, 09:55:55 PM


ok.  mental and emotional problems then?

um maybe just a hard test???  ::)

my boyfriend just listened to me complain. i never had any emotional or mental problems in school, sometimes i just needed someone to vent to...someone who wasn't a law student and never made a tort or adverse possession joke.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: mrdunson on June 04, 2007, 09:59:17 PM
What tips do you have for taking notes and outlining?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: goosenesque on June 04, 2007, 10:18:43 PM


ok.  mental and emotional problems then?

um maybe just a hard test???  ::)

my boyfriend just listened to me complain. i never had any emotional or mental problems in school, sometimes i just needed someone to vent to...someone who wasn't a law student and never made a tort or adverse possession joke.

Quoting Tool?  You're my new favorite person on LSD!

Oh, and did you hear Chevelle got their gear stolen?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: t... on June 04, 2007, 11:20:45 PM
If it's any consolation to y'all, my friend is currently buried in a Barbri course, which she claims makes law school feel like a nice walk through the park, barefoot and eating an ice cream cone. First year times 10, says she.

Makes me not want to take the bar, cause I'm weak like that.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 05, 2007, 09:52:42 AM
well, how did those grades end up?

B-.  I have no shame.  I was expecting a D.  I saw the grade distribution for the course, and I was shocked to find out that I did better than 45% of the people in the class.  I didn't answer two of the essays.  Literally nothing.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on June 05, 2007, 09:57:01 AM
well, how did those grades end up?

B-.  I have no shame.  I was expecting a D.  I saw the grade distribution for the course, and I was shocked to find out that I did better than 45% of the people in the class.  I didn't answer two of the essays.  Literally nothing.

well, isnt that part of lawschool?

no matter what, you prob wont get an F, and because of the curve, youll prob fall near the middle?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: mrdunson on June 05, 2007, 09:58:14 AM
Wtf?  D = 46 percentile? 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Jolie Was Here on June 05, 2007, 10:02:40 AM
Wtf?  D = 46 percentile? 

She got a B-, not a D. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: mrdunson on June 05, 2007, 10:04:49 AM
Sorry, my reading glasses are way over there. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Jolie Was Here on June 05, 2007, 10:05:36 AM
:D
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 05, 2007, 12:11:35 PM
Sorry, my reading glasses are way over there. 

S'okay.  It's still surprising.  I saw the points breakdown so I know it was one of the highest B-minuses awarded, which is how I figured out the percentile.

And no, blueb, I don't think the curve means you automatically end up in the middle.  I was very lucky -- though it won't matter too much when this low-curve class is compared with my classmates in the midsummer rankings.  A B- still really bites.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on June 05, 2007, 12:15:20 PM
Sorry, my reading glasses are way over there. 

S'okay.  It's still surprising.  I saw the points breakdown so I know it was one of the highest B-minuses awarded, which is how I figured out the percentile.

And no, blueb, I don't think the curve means you automatically end up in the middle.  I was very lucky -- though it won't matter too much when this low-curve class is compared with my classmates in the midsummer rankings.  A B- still really bites.

your too hard on yourself...
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Alamo on June 05, 2007, 12:20:07 PM
Sorry, my reading glasses are way over there. 

S'okay.  It's still surprising.  I saw the points breakdown so I know it was one of the highest B-minuses awarded, which is how I figured out the percentile.

And no, blueb, I don't think the curve means you automatically end up in the middle.  I was very lucky -- though it won't matter too much when this low-curve class is compared with my classmates in the midsummer rankings.  A B- still really bites.

Yeah, I got a B- in legal writing last year, which hurt because I put so much time into it and thought I did well.  But then there was Torts, where I was praying I did well enough to get a B- and ended up w/an A.  I think blueb's idea references the core truth that for the really tough exams, you can think you completely bombed it and end up in the middle of the curve because it's that much harder for everybody else as well; sounds like that's what happened to you.  But I think it's better to feel like you bombed something and be pleasantly surprised w/the result than to think you did well and get sucker-punched w/a low grade. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 05, 2007, 01:13:06 PM
But I think it's better to feel like you bombed something and be pleasantly surprised w/the result than to think you did well and get sucker-punched w/a low grade. 

But of course!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: kirkcameronsgf on June 05, 2007, 01:29:31 PM
*stumbles in here*

umm..  tag?  ???
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Alamo on June 05, 2007, 01:38:32 PM
(That reminds me of the Point/Counterpoint article in the Onion where it was like Jenna Elizabeth McElliot of Wheaton vs. Saru of Sub-Saharan Africa, and the statement they argued was "Omigod, I am so totally starving.")"

I love those point-counterpoint articles.  I think this might be my favorite...

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/34198
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Elephant Lee on June 05, 2007, 02:57:33 PM
(That reminds me of the Point/Counterpoint article in the Onion where it was like Jenna Elizabeth McElliot of Wheaton vs. Saru of Sub-Saharan Africa
Yeah, those Wheatonites.  ;)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Thistle on June 05, 2007, 03:56:48 PM


ok.  mental and emotional problems then?

um maybe just a hard test???  ::)

my boyfriend just listened to me complain. i never had any emotional or mental problems in school, sometimes i just needed someone to vent to...someone who wasn't a law student and never made a tort or adverse possession joke.

Quoting Tool?  You're my new favorite person on LSD!

Oh, and did you hear Chevelle got their gear stolen?



i met chevelle in either 1999 or 2000 at the cornerstone festival.  they were wandering around handing out demo tapes trying to get people to come see their show.  we fed them hotdogs.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: chevelle on June 05, 2007, 07:46:45 PM
Quoting Tool?  You're my new favorite person on LSD!

Oh, and did you hear Chevelle got their gear stolen?

Haha...yeah I quoted Tool.

And yes I did hear about Chevelle getting all their stuff stolen. I heard they found some of it, but not their guitars. That really sucks.

Yes this is completely irrelevant to this thread.

On another note, I am such a loser I just made a spreadsheet where I can input different grades I think I got in the 2 classes I don't know yet and see what my GPA would be.  :(

I also worry I might get in trouble at work because I can't stop obsessively reloading the "Check Grades" part of my school's website all day long.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Thistle on June 05, 2007, 08:46:59 PM
Quoting Tool?  You're my new favorite person on LSD!

Oh, and did you hear Chevelle got their gear stolen?

Haha...yeah I quoted Tool.

And yes I did hear about Chevelle getting all their stuff stolen. I heard they found some of it, but not their guitars. That really sucks.

Yes this is completely irrelevant to this thread.

On another note, I am such a loser I just made a spreadsheet where I can input different grades I think I got in the 2 classes I don't know yet and see what my GPA would be.  :(

I also worry I might get in trouble at work because I can't stop obsessively reloading the "Check Grades" part of my school's website all day long.

i have a great spreadsheet that does that and computes your cum gpa for all three years of law school.   :P  i'll send it to you if you want
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Astro on June 05, 2007, 11:18:14 PM


ok.  mental and emotional problems then?

um maybe just a hard test???  ::)

my boyfriend just listened to me complain. i never had any emotional or mental problems in school, sometimes i just needed someone to vent to...someone who wasn't a law student and never made a tort or adverse possession joke.

Quoting Tool?  You're my new favorite person on LSD!

Oh, and did you hear Chevelle got their gear stolen?



i met chevelle in either 1999 or 2000 at the cornerstone festival.  they were wandering around handing out demo tapes trying to get people to come see their show.  we fed them hotdogs.


That was right before Point #1, eh?  I liked Chevelle back in the day.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Thistle on June 06, 2007, 06:20:23 AM


ok.  mental and emotional problems then?

um maybe just a hard test???  ::)

my boyfriend just listened to me complain. i never had any emotional or mental problems in school, sometimes i just needed someone to vent to...someone who wasn't a law student and never made a tort or adverse possession joke.

Quoting Tool?  You're my new favorite person on LSD!

Oh, and did you hear Chevelle got their gear stolen?



i met chevelle in either 1999 or 2000 at the cornerstone festival.  they were wandering around handing out demo tapes trying to get people to come see their show.  we fed them hotdogs.


That was right before Point #1, eh?  I liked Chevelle back in the day.



yeah, the prelude and the lyrical were both on their tape.  they put on a good show
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on June 06, 2007, 04:13:23 PM
I'm always making jokes about "touch and concern" the [land][burger][whatever else it applies to] to the point where people want to hit me.  I like adverse possession jokes too.

A dude in our class made a spreadsheet of EVERYONE'S grades and it calculated your percentile in the class and in your particular section and your GPA.  A little creepy.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on June 06, 2007, 04:20:55 PM
I'm always making jokes about "touch and concern" the [land][burger][whatever else it applies to] to the point where people want to hit me.  I like adverse possession jokes too.

A dude in our class made a spreadsheet of EVERYONE'S grades and it calculated your percentile in the class and in your particular section and your GPA.  A little creepy.

Dude, that is WAY CREEPY. How did he get everyopnes grades? I got my first grade from spring today, very, very happy. I have a feeling it will be downhill for the rest of them though. :(

They just post pdf files of the grades by anonymous number.  It's really just creepy that he had the time and the motivation to do that.  Crazy.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: chevelle on June 06, 2007, 05:24:48 PM
no more grades today :( not that i really want to see them...
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: dbgirl on June 06, 2007, 05:45:29 PM
well, how did those grades end up?

B-.  I have no shame.  I was expecting a D.  I saw the grade distribution for the course, and I was shocked to find out that I did better than 45% of the people in the class.  I didn't answer two of the essays.  Literally nothing.

well, isnt that part of lawschool?

no matter what, you prob wont get an F, and because of the curve, youll prob fall near the middle?

Depends upon your school blue, but the "no matter what" you won't fail thing - not something I'd count on.
Someone always fails, even at schools where it's not mandatory.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on June 06, 2007, 05:56:14 PM
well, how did those grades end up?

B-.  I have no shame.  I was expecting a D.  I saw the grade distribution for the course, and I was shocked to find out that I did better than 45% of the people in the class.  I didn't answer two of the essays.  Literally nothing.

well, isnt that part of lawschool?

no matter what, you prob wont get an F, and because of the curve, youll prob fall near the middle?

Depends upon your school blue, but the "no matter what" you won't fail thing - not something I'd count on.
Someone always fails, even at schools where it's not mandatory.

even if they try?

that curve seems to prevent it...
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: dbgirl on June 06, 2007, 06:01:18 PM
well, how did those grades end up?

B-.  I have no shame.  I was expecting a D.  I saw the grade distribution for the course, and I was shocked to find out that I did better than 45% of the people in the class.  I didn't answer two of the essays.  Literally nothing.

well, isnt that part of lawschool?

no matter what, you prob wont get an F, and because of the curve, youll prob fall near the middle?

Depends upon your school blue, but the "no matter what" you won't fail thing - not something I'd count on.
Someone always fails, even at schools where it's not mandatory.

even if they try?

that curve seems to prevent it...
Umm, pretty much everyone tries. Yet, some fail anyway (or get Ds, and 1Ls would have to repeat those.) 
It's not like undergrad where you get points for remembering your name (or, in this case student ID #).

Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on June 06, 2007, 06:17:27 PM
well, how did those grades end up?

B-.  I have no shame.  I was expecting a D.  I saw the grade distribution for the course, and I was shocked to find out that I did better than 45% of the people in the class.  I didn't answer two of the essays.  Literally nothing.

well, isnt that part of lawschool?

no matter what, you prob wont get an F, and because of the curve, youll prob fall near the middle?

Depends upon your school blue, but the "no matter what" you won't fail thing - not something I'd count on.
Someone always fails, even at schools where it's not mandatory.

even if they try?

that curve seems to prevent it...
Umm, pretty much everyone tries. Yet, some fail anyway (or get Ds, and 1Ls would have to repeat those.) 
It's not like undergrad where you get points for remembering your name (or, in this case student ID #).



Exactly. I hate when people assume they'll be at the middle or above because they're not lazy. Yes, there are lazy people in law school, but they certainly make up a small minority and many people who work their asses off don't do all that well. I have never been a good exam taker no matter how hard I try, but it doesn't mean I don't understand the material.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 06, 2007, 09:29:54 PM
I'm always making jokes about "touch and concern" the [land][burger][whatever else it applies to] to the point where people want to hit me.  I like adverse possession jokes too.

A dude in our class made a spreadsheet of EVERYONE'S grades and it calculated your percentile in the class and in your particular section and your GPA.  A little creepy.

We are secretly two peas in a pod, dear.  I love "touch and concern" jokes, and I refer to all outings as "detours and frolics."
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on June 07, 2007, 06:41:33 AM
I'm always making jokes about "touch and concern" the [land][burger][whatever else it applies to] to the point where people want to hit me.  I like adverse possession jokes too.

A dude in our class made a spreadsheet of EVERYONE'S grades and it calculated your percentile in the class and in your particular section and your GPA.  A little creepy.

We are secretly two peas in a pod, dear.  I love "touch and concern" jokes, and I refer to all outings as "detours and frolics."

I'm glad you share my love of the "touch and concern"... the others who don't simply have no taste.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Jolie Was Here on June 07, 2007, 08:01:18 AM
I don't like Property jokes *at all*.  But that's probably because I hated my Property prof with a purple passion.  It's also the only class where I could dream of blaming my sub-par grade on her shortcomings rather than my own. :D
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on June 07, 2007, 09:46:28 AM
I don't like Property jokes *at all*.  But that's probably because I hated my Property prof with a purple passion.  It's also the only class where I could dream of blaming my sub-par grade on her shortcomings rather than my own. :D

We should start a club. Not like my grades aren't generally sub-par but my final had absolutely nothing to do with the class. There was no way we could have even have studied.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on June 07, 2007, 09:53:32 AM
I don't like Property jokes *at all*.  But that's probably because I hated my Property prof with a purple passion.  It's also the only class where I could dream of blaming my sub-par grade on her shortcomings rather than my own. :D

We should start a club. Not like my grades aren't generally sub-par but my final had absolutely nothing to do with the class. There was no way we could have even have studied.

huh?

how is that possible?   :(
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on June 07, 2007, 09:59:33 AM
I don't like Property jokes *at all*.  But that's probably because I hated my Property prof with a purple passion.  It's also the only class where I could dream of blaming my sub-par grade on her shortcomings rather than my own. :D

We should start a club. Not like my grades aren't generally sub-par but my final had absolutely nothing to do with the class. There was no way we could have even have studied.

huh?

how is that possible?   :(

The prof told us for around 80-90% of the class that we would be getting multi-state style questions. Then with a few weeks before exams, he told us it would be on vignettes he brought up in class and people gave their opinions on. None of us had written that stuff down because we didn't think it would be on the exam. Even if we had written something down, it was a lot more general than was needed to do well.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Jolie Was Here on June 07, 2007, 10:07:30 AM
blue, they can be as random as they desire. 

Our Property exam wasn't that bad, but it was still ridiculous.  Closed book, and we had questions like: What were the three main points of the dissent in [Obscure Takings Case]?

Don't get me wrong - I can see how memorizing the dissents to the 97 cases we read is a useful legal skill and I don't mean to suggest that it would be a waste of time..  ::)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on June 07, 2007, 10:10:42 AM
blue, they can be as random as they desire. 

Our Property exam wasn't that bad, but it was still ridiculous.  Closed book, and we had questions like: What were the three main points of the dissent in [Obscure Takings Case]?

Don't get me wrong - I can see how memorizing the dissents to the 97 cases we read is a useful legal skill and I don't mean to suggest that it would be a waste of time..  ::)

From my survey of students at a few schools, the likelihood that the exam has nothing to do with the topic at hand is the highest in property. However, my knowledge of a conversation we had in class in February and what random gunners were saying about it really doesn't have anything to do with how well I know the topic. Nor does my memory of an arbitration lecture really show how much I know about property.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: dbgirl on June 07, 2007, 10:14:37 AM
I don't like Property jokes *at all*.  But that's probably because I hated my Property prof with a purple passion.  It's also the only class where I could dream of blaming my sub-par grade on her shortcomings rather than my own. :D

We should start a club. Not like my grades aren't generally sub-par but my final had absolutely nothing to do with the class. There was no way we could have even have studied.

huh?

how is that possible?   :(

You'll find out soon enough blue.  Almost every student has a story like this. The entire first half of my con law I exam was based largely on a case we were specifically instructed to skip (I suppose said instructor wrote the exam before deciding to skip the case).   And it's not uncommon for a professor to ask a question based on some random seemingly insignificant somethingorother mentioned momentarily in class one day.  Basically professors have a lot of material they can theoretically test on and some just like to @#!* with your head.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: dbgirl on June 07, 2007, 10:15:49 AM
I don't like Property jokes *at all*.  But that's probably because I hated my Property prof with a purple passion.  It's also the only class where I could dream of blaming my sub-par grade on her shortcomings rather than my own. :D

We should start a club. Not like my grades aren't generally sub-par but my final had absolutely nothing to do with the class. There was no way we could have even have studied.

huh?

how is that possible?   :(

The prof told us for around 80-90% of the class that we would be getting multi-state style questions. Then with a few weeks before exams, he told us it would be on vignettes he brought up in class and people gave their opinions on. None of us had written that stuff down because we didn't think it would be on the exam. Even if we had written something down, it was a lot more general than was needed to do well.

One you're a 2L, you'll see this is a frequent professor trick.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on June 07, 2007, 10:17:16 AM
that bites!

then how do you know what to study?  do they do like undergrad and give a review?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Jolie Was Here on June 07, 2007, 10:23:46 AM
I just realized that I should clarify - I hated this prof all semester, openly and vigorously.  A lousy grade was just the appropriate coda to a terrible course. 

I knew we weren't going to hit if off when we had the following exchange as our first ever conversation:

Amy: Hi Prof. so-and-so.  I wanted to make sure that you got my email about missing classes this week (because I'm taking my exams from first semester)(you're the only prof. who ignored my email so I have to ask.)

Prof: Oh yeah, I think so.  You the one whose dad died?

I *&^% you not.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Alamo on June 07, 2007, 10:27:33 AM
I just realized that I should clarify - I hated this prof all semester, openly and vigorously.  A lousy grade was just the appropriate coda to a terrible course. 

I knew we weren't going to hit if off when we had the following exchange as our first ever conversation:

Amy: Hi Prof. so-and-so.  I wanted to make sure that you got my email about missing classes this week (because I'm taking my exams from first semester)(you're the only prof. who ignored my email so I have to ask.)

Prof: Oh yeah, I think so.  You the one whose dad died?

I *&^% you not.

 :o :o :o

Wow.  I know that tact levels don't run particularly high in the legal profession, but that's just disgusting.  At least you know one professor NOT to take in the future.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on June 07, 2007, 10:35:17 AM
I don't like Property jokes *at all*.  But that's probably because I hated my Property prof with a purple passion.  It's also the only class where I could dream of blaming my sub-par grade on her shortcomings rather than my own. :D

We should start a club. Not like my grades aren't generally sub-par but my final had absolutely nothing to do with the class. There was no way we could have even have studied.

huh?

how is that possible?   :(

The prof told us for around 80-90% of the class that we would be getting multi-state style questions. Then with a few weeks before exams, he told us it would be on vignettes he brought up in class and people gave their opinions on. None of us had written that stuff down because we didn't think it would be on the exam. Even if we had written something down, it was a lot more general than was needed to do well.

One you're a 2L, you'll see this is a frequent professor trick.

I've been fine with the trick before, but when people are pretty much arguing with each other in the class and no one has any idea what is happening, it's very frustrating.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 07, 2007, 11:03:00 AM
Wow.  I know that tact levels don't run particularly high in the legal profession, but that's just disgusting.  At least you know one professor NOT to take in the future.

I too am horrified, Jolie.  People like that have no business interacting with students other people. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Jolie Was Here on June 07, 2007, 11:31:26 AM
Thanks, guys.  Always nice to hear votes of sympathy. 

Yeah, this prof was pretty wretched - and it wasn't just me with my personal beef.  2Ls warned us in August: "Oh, you have _____?  Worst. Prof. Ever."  This individual can't lecture, can't respond to questions, changes assignments constantly (like, at 9 pm), insists on holding class at a nomansland time that interferes with all electives because it's convenient for said prof, is rude and belittling when students don't understand something...our class was pretty much in open revolt.  We all just refused to engage or participate. 

It's always shocking to me when someone who's that bad in the classroom lands a job at such a good school.  This one has done some pretty significant big-deal litigation (really amazing women's rights stuff, too) but has No Business in academia.  I guess we'll see what happens at tenure time. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: dbgirl on June 07, 2007, 11:35:24 AM
I just realized that I should clarify - I hated this prof all semester, openly and vigorously.  A lousy grade was just the appropriate coda to a terrible course. 

I knew we weren't going to hit if off when we had the following exchange as our first ever conversation:

Amy: Hi Prof. so-and-so.  I wanted to make sure that you got my email about missing classes this week (because I'm taking my exams from first semester)(you're the only prof. who ignored my email so I have to ask.)

Prof: Oh yeah, I think so.  You the one whose dad died?

I sh*t you not.

Obviously law profs aren't hired for personality or compassion.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on June 07, 2007, 11:40:08 AM
is there a ratemylawprofessor website?

be helpful...
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: The Poster on June 07, 2007, 12:24:53 PM
Thanks, guys. Always nice to hear votes of sympathy.

Yeah, this prof was pretty wretched - and it wasn't just me with my personal beef. 2Ls warned us in August: "Oh, you have _____? Worst. Prof. Ever." This individual can't lecture, can't respond to questions, changes assignments constantly (like, at 9 pm), insists on holding class at a nomansland time that interferes with all electives because it's convenient for said prof, is rude and belittling when students don't understand something...our class was pretty much in open revolt. We all just refused to engage or participate.

It's always shocking to me when someone who's that bad in the classroom lands a job at such a good school. This one has done some pretty significant big-deal litigation (really amazing women's rights stuff, too) but has No Business in academia. I guess we'll see what happens at tenure time.

Jolie, yikes that prof sounds horrible! Who is it so I can make sure I avoid them if at all possible?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Jolie Was Here on June 07, 2007, 12:34:14 PM
PM coming.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on June 07, 2007, 07:12:14 PM
I don't like Property jokes *at all*.  But that's probably because I hated my Property prof with a purple passion.  It's also the only class where I could dream of blaming my sub-par grade on her shortcomings rather than my own. :D

I hated my Property prof too, and I totally blame my grade on his bad teaching and mind-raping-impossible tests (7 of them).  He sucks at life and I have christened him "Professor Poohead" for the rest of time. 

But I still like Property jokes.  :D

Ok, and now that I read the end of the thread I will say that my Property professor wasn't as bad as Jolie's.  But I'll share my woes anyway.  We had 7 tests throughout the semester (WORST f-ing IDEA EVER) and he always canceled class for one reason or another, so we had about half the actual "teaching" time as other Property classes.  Yet we were constantly tested.  And he didn't actually teach, he just put up poorly written, vague, misspelled slides, told us "Oh they'll be on the website" so no one took notes, and then he usually rambled for a bit and tried to have some class discussion on a completely random topic.  Or he blazed through 2 or 3 classes of material in 20 minutes.    Oh, and he always reeked of alcohol.  I think he's going to get tenure, which is sad, because he is the worst teacher... he actually makes me want to teach Property just so I can explain things better and not make students feel like they're living in Property mind-@#!* land. 

I won't even get into the tests, they were awful-- multiple choice questions worth 10-20 points each where there was never an actual clear answer, so missing one just destroyed your score (we had one test with 7 multiple choice questions worth 14 points each and people got 14s and 28s on the test).  On our last exam, which was all essays, the average was a 50.  My personal theory is that he thought he told us something really really important in an alcohol-induced stupor... and he didn't.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on June 07, 2007, 07:32:17 PM
hmmm, law school is not seeming like the intellectually stimulating experience i was hoping for...
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: dbgirl on June 07, 2007, 08:07:56 PM
hmmm, law school is not seeming like the intellectually stimulating experience i was hoping for...

There is very little intellectual stimulation in law school. Its more like intellectual stagnation. Thinking like a lawyer is thinking like everyone else in law school. Law school classes are more like 101 classes from undergrad than not, your only touching the surface, your not learning near enough about the law to actually do anything with your knowledge. Law school is about teaching you the way to think, not teaching you what the law is or how it works in practice.

Matthies, if my memory is correct (and knows, I am a law student), you're a soon to be 3L, like me, right?

Blue, if it's any comfort, I feel a lot better about law school now that I have just one year left  :D
There are a lot of things about law school that can be interesting - like the clinical courses.  I really liked, for example, doing trial advocacy and (to a lesser degree) appellate advocacy because I felt that I was really doing things  that played to my interests and strengths.  Thankfully the further along you get in law school the more opportunities you have to work with your interests.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Thistle on June 07, 2007, 08:38:27 PM
25% of our civ pro exam was on a concept we spent less than 30 minutes on.

another 25% was supposedly on erie doctrine, but couched in such a way it was totally unrecognizable.

yet another 25% was worded "what is the quickest avenue to filing an appeal" but was really a question about summary judgment

the final 25% was on personal jurisdiction, but involved a guy on a military base and a state court, and he somehow didn't realize that a military base was federal property, and that active duty military are considered residents of their home-of-record states and not the states in which they are stationed -- and of course none of those concepts were covered in class.

the 4 weeks we spent on discovery?  nowhere to be found.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: chevelle on June 07, 2007, 10:25:16 PM

another 25% was supposedly on erie doctrine, but couched in such a way it was totally unrecognizable.


we covered the erie doctrine on the last day ever of class. and only spent one day on it. and it wasn't on our final.

i am not kidding.

so I got one of the grades I was waiting for, it was an A-. I don't have contracts yet. It's like waiting for a bomb to drop right on my GPA.  :(
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: t... on June 07, 2007, 10:37:13 PM
hmmm, law school is not seeming like the intellectually stimulating experience i was hoping for...

There is very little intellectual stimulation in law school. Its more like intellectual stagnation. Thinking like a lawyer is thinking like everyone else in law school. Law school classes are more like 101 classes from undergrad than not, your only touching the surface, your not learning near enough about the law to actually do anything with your knowledge. Law school is about teaching you the way to think, not teaching you what the law is or how it works in practice.

Yeah, this is the part I'll absolutely f-ing hate.

I was reading this really annoying article in Trial magazine about litigating ATV accidents, and the author was going on and on about the various avenues to pursue in a chain of negligence. The entire time I was reading this article I was screaming "this is absolutely f-ing absurd" all the while realizing that in law school I'm going to have to swallow any emotional and intellectual engagement I may have with a situation or issue, and begin to understand (and even appreciate) these scenarios from a "lawyerly" perspective.

I really don't f-ing care how you may be able to litigate something if its absolutely batshit ridiculous to begin with. Hopefully I can find salvation in trying to seeing the other side, and combating this absurdity.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: chevelle on June 07, 2007, 10:40:37 PM
I'm going to have to swallow any emotional and intellectual engagement I may have with a situation or issue

I haven't felt like that at all really...maybe something is wrong with me
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: t... on June 07, 2007, 10:51:43 PM
From what I understand you're supposed to start looking at issues in terms of how you might litigate and/or defend them,  and not necessarily whether or not it makes sense to even be able to litigate such issues.

Is this far off?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: chevelle on June 07, 2007, 11:07:57 PM
From what I understand you're supposed to start looking at issues in terms of how you might litigate and/or defend them,  and not necessarily whether or not it makes sense to even be able to litigate such issues.

Is this far off?

Um, I think part of being a good lawyer is being able to spot what issues are pointless to defend.

Anytime you will get a fact pattern on a test, there might be 15 potential issues you could spot and argue. But when you are taking a time-constrained test, the person who can pick out the strongest arguments and argue them well gets the best grade.

And even in practice, an attorney might get a potential case and decide that its not worth the firms time to bother with the case...

You think law school is just all about listing all the potential arguments you could make for an issue, and that basically your thinking has to be completely void of any common sense?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: t... on June 07, 2007, 11:23:28 PM
Certainly not "all about," but I do think a large part of it is (re)training people to think of issues in a lawyerly way.

Maybe I'm just confused as to what that exactly means.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 08, 2007, 06:09:30 AM
From what I understand you're supposed to start looking at issues in terms of how you might litigate and/or defend them,  and not necessarily whether or not it makes sense to even be able to litigate such issues.

Is this far off?

If this is your demand for intellectual engagement, it will be met in spades.  There's a lot of "Does this law make sense?" and "What incentives does this property regime provide?" type of stuff.  The questions just aren't particularly deep.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Jolie Was Here on June 08, 2007, 07:36:58 AM
Wow.  Outside of Property my experience has been very very different.  I found 1L quite intellectually engaging and stimulating, but I don't know if that says something about my profs or just means that I'm a lot simpler than y'all.  :D

smiley and I were just reflecting on the fact that we actually DID spend so much time sitting around and discussing "substantive legal issues." 

And 7 Property exams?  That sounds like the sixth circle of hell!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Alamo on June 08, 2007, 08:50:05 AM
Wow.  Outside of Property my experience has been very very different.  I found 1L quite intellectually engaging and stimulating, but I don't know if that says something about my profs or just means that I'm a lot simpler than y'all.  :D

smiley and I were just reflecting on the fact that we actually DID spend so much time sitting around and discussing "substantive legal issues." 

And 7 Property exams?  That sounds like the sixth circle of hell!

I thought 1L was pretty engaging too, other than Civ Pro II, which was basic Complaint>discovery>settlement>trial stuff.  Even though I was definitely much less of a gunner/dork 2nd semester than 1st, I was just as into it.  I also spend most of my leisure time sitting on my porch in a rocking chair with my pregnant wife listening to the birds chirp, so I've got a feeling there's a strong correlation between being simple and enjoying law school...
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: walk it out on June 08, 2007, 12:27:56 PM
From what I understand you're supposed to start looking at issues in terms of how you might litigate and/or defend them,  and not necessarily whether or not it makes sense to even be able to litigate such issues.

Is this far off?

As said already, part of the purpose of law school is to learn how to pick out the important arguments (ie the arguments that will win the case and those that favor your side) while devoting significantly less time to the others.  Personally, especially 1L year, I found most of the cases and subjects to be pretty boring.  It's hard to really care about a cricket ball hitting someone in the head more than a hundred years ago.  And not many people have a really strong opinion on easements.  So, it's pretty easy to divorce yourself from the just/unjust nature of the outcomes of those types of cases and simply focus on the analysis.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Astro on June 08, 2007, 12:33:09 PM
It's hard to really care about a cricket ball hitting someone in the head more than a hundred years ago. 


No it isn't!   >:(
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: pikey on June 08, 2007, 12:36:01 PM
I just wanted to note that the title of this thread bothers me ever time I see it.

For those who dammit!  ;)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: dbgirl on June 08, 2007, 12:37:35 PM
I dunno, I have found law school extremely boring at times. Iím not saying the material is not interesting, it is, but its not, at least to me, intellectually stimulating. Some people get the whole thinking like a lawyer quickly, others it takes time. The more black and white you see the world the harder it will be for you to adjust, the more you can see an issues from many sides, even sides you find absurd, the easier it will be for you. In the end itís a professional school, its not deep thought, its not solving the worlds problems, its learning tid bits and trying to put them in the order that makes the most sense on exams. The things that make a good lawyer and the things that make a good grade on a law school exam are sadly not the same thing.
 

I agree.  That's why i like the smaller clinic courses which a more hands-on and practical.
I tend to do better in those courses too, perhaps because they play to my strengths and make me actually (gasp) feel good about what I can accomplish.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Hank Rearden on June 08, 2007, 12:44:36 PM
I just wanted to note that the title of this thread bothers me ever time I see it.

For those who dammit!  ;)

Hah, it's a blue thread.  What did you expect?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: pikey on June 08, 2007, 12:46:10 PM
I just wanted to note that the title of this thread bothers me ever time I see it.

For those who dammit!  ;)

Hah, it's a blue thread.  What did you expect?

This is why I try to avoid blue threads.  It hurts my inner grammar nazi.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: dbgirl on June 08, 2007, 12:49:36 PM
I just wanted to note that the title of this thread bothers me ever time I see it.

For those who dammit!  ;)

Hah, it's a blue thread.  What did you expect?

This is why I try to avoid blue threads.  It hurts my inner grammer nazi.
grammEr?

Anyway, you have to get used to things like that.
Casebooks are full of "which" instead of "that."
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: pikey on June 08, 2007, 12:51:29 PM
I just wanted to note that the title of this thread bothers me ever time I see it.

For those who dammit!  ;)

Hah, it's a blue thread.  What did you expect?

This is why I try to avoid blue threads.  It hurts my inner grammer nazi.
grammEr?

Anyway, you have to get used to things like that.
Casebooks are full of "which" instead of "that."


 :D  Clearly its been a long day.  :P Just over an hour until I'm done!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Hank Rearden on June 08, 2007, 12:55:34 PM
I just wanted to note that the title of this thread bothers me ever time I see it.

For those who dammit!  ;)

Hah, it's a blue thread.  What did you expect?

This is why I try to avoid blue threads.  It hurts my inner grammer nazi.
grammEr?

Anyway, you have to get used to things like that.
Casebooks are full of "which" instead of "that."


 :D  Clearly its been a long day.  :P Just over an hour until I'm done!

Long day?  I've been up for less than two hours.   :)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Alamo on June 08, 2007, 12:57:22 PM
I actually enjoy property.  Right now I'm working on an inverse condemnation/breach of contracts case in which I've used a decent amount of substantive knowledge I learned in both property and contracts, although of course I've needed to look up the relevant practice/case law for my jurisdiction.  But I wouldn't say the substantive classes are necessarily worthless for learning useful black letter law.  And I'd never call most of my classes boring. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: John Blackthorne on June 08, 2007, 01:06:29 PM
I actually enjoy property.  Right now I'm working on an inverse condemnation/breach of contracts case in which I've used a decent amount of substantive knowledge I learned in both property and contracts, although of course I've needed to look up the relevant practice/case law for my jurisdiction.  But I wouldn't say the substantive classes are necessarily worthless for learning useful black letter law.  And I'd never call most of my classes boring. 

gunner

(http://tjsdoubleplay.com/images/lsgunner.jpg)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Alamo on June 08, 2007, 01:07:18 PM
I actually enjoy property.  Right now I'm working on an inverse condemnation/breach of contracts case in which I've used a decent amount of substantive knowledge I learned in both property and contracts, although of course I've needed to look up the relevant practice/case law for my jurisdiction.  But I wouldn't say the substantive classes are necessarily worthless for learning useful black letter law.  And I'd never call most of my classes boring. 

gunner

(http://tjsdoubleplay.com/images/lsgunner.jpg)

::grins sheepishly::
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 08, 2007, 01:36:42 PM
I don't know if that. . .just means that I'm a lot simpler than y'all.  :D

Ha!  Shut yer trap.

I enjoyed learning about substantive law at a 1L level, including conlaw.

Me too, especially conlaw and the "short story" case classes, crim and torts.  I found contracts most intellectually engaging, however.  I'm sure this varies from prof to prof.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on June 08, 2007, 01:45:43 PM
anyone regretting going to law school?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Reesespbcup on June 08, 2007, 01:55:06 PM
tiggity-tag 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: John Blackthorne on June 08, 2007, 01:59:35 PM
anyone regretting going to law school?

yes, but thats nothing new.

CAREFULLY consider your options, goals, and dreams before coming to lawschool.  read those books about lawschool, there is one that details in the first chapter the steps you should take before making the decision--the steps are rather extensive and time consuming, but less so than lawschool.  in the absence of careful consideration you should, at a minimum, find a way to graduate from lawschool debt free.  a person who just graduated from my school is moving to a city on the east coast to coach crew b/c the law "just isn't for" him, and his family paid tuition.  its bad enough if you are unhappy, its worse if you are $150K in debt to boot!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on June 08, 2007, 02:08:54 PM
I just wanted to note that the title of this thread bothers me ever time I see it.

For those who dammit!  ;)

Hah, it's a blue thread.  What did you expect?

This is why I try to avoid blue threads.  It hurts my inner grammar nazi.

eye no what u meanie
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Zam on June 08, 2007, 02:11:06 PM
a person who just graduated from my school is moving to a city on the east coast to coach crew b/c the law "just isn't for" him, and his family paid tuition.

 :o
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on June 08, 2007, 05:15:08 PM
I don't know if that. . .just means that I'm a lot simpler than y'all.  :D

Ha!  Shut yer trap.

I enjoyed learning about substantive law at a 1L level, including conlaw.

Me too, especially conlaw and the "short story" case classes, crim and torts.  I found contracts most intellectually engaging, however.  I'm sure this varies from prof to prof.

Yeah, I agree.  My profs fall semester were amazing, but last semester we had a bunch of total duds.  I never felt intellectually stimulated even if the reading was interesting. 

In response to blue's question, sometimes I hated law school a lot, especially last semester, but I don't regret it.  But I agree that you really have to be sure about it before jumping in or you may be really sorry later.  There were plenty of people in my class who talked constantly about quitting.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Hank Rearden on June 08, 2007, 05:24:22 PM
Without intellectual stimulation I just don't know what I would do!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Thistle on June 08, 2007, 09:05:21 PM
Without intellectual stimulation I just don't know what I would do!


manual stimulation?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Hank Rearden on June 09, 2007, 01:37:07 AM
Without intellectual stimulation I just don't know what I would do!


manual stimulation?

I suppose that'll have to do, what with my having chosen law school over more intellectually stimulating fields. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: t... on June 10, 2007, 07:49:08 PM
Without intellectual stimulation I just don't know what I would do!

Probably read Ayn Rand?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 10, 2007, 09:12:02 PM
Without intellectual stimulation I just don't know what I would do!

Probably read Ayn Rand?

It's certainly something one can do without a lick of intellectual stimulation.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: __ on June 10, 2007, 09:13:37 PM
Alduous Huxley?

I missed you P.
kisses :-*
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 10, 2007, 09:24:39 PM
I missed you P.
kisses :-*

Well hello, T!  Are you hanging out in SFLSD now?  I have to make my way back there, but I am scared of the huge g-dub that awaits.  And you probably don't know what a g-dub is, but let me just say, it will take me quite some time...
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: __ on June 10, 2007, 09:29:13 PM
I missed you P.
kisses :-*

Well hello, T!  Are you hanging out in SFLSD now?  I have to make my way back there, but I am scared of the huge g-dub that awaits.  And you probably don't know what a g-dub is, but let me just say, it will take me quite some time...

tis true, I know not G-dub, but I can ask sax. (as we live in same city now)
but sax told me SF is where ppl hang now... but there's a lot of deleting.
and that makes me, and baby jesus cry.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 10, 2007, 09:34:42 PM
tis true, I know not G-dub, but I can ask sax. (as we live in same city now)
but sax told me SF is where ppl hang now... but there's a lot of deleting.
and that makes me, and baby jesus cry.

This isn't going to work if you want to tug at the heartstrings of those heathen SFLSDers.  Cady broke up with Baby Jesus and they all took her side.  I guess they like making Him cry.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: __ on June 10, 2007, 09:36:39 PM
oh no...
but I swear allegiance to cady... I'm sure baby jesus deserved it.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on June 10, 2007, 10:15:05 PM
whats coming to this world when MY threads get hi-jacked??!?!?!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Hank Rearden on June 10, 2007, 11:10:09 PM
Without intellectual stimulation I just don't know what I would do!

Probably read Ayn Rand?

It's certainly something one can do without a lick of intellectual stimulation.

Nah, I prefer Karl Marx.  There's some really stimulating material!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Hank Rearden on June 10, 2007, 11:17:25 PM
You don't think it's stimulating?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: t... on June 10, 2007, 11:19:47 PM
Without intellectual stimulation I just don't know what I would do!

Probably read Ayn Rand?

It's certainly something one can do without a lick of intellectual stimulation.

Nah, I prefer Karl Marx.  There's some really stimulating material!

I have to believe you're just playing to your shtick now; you're really not that silly, are you?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Hank Rearden on June 10, 2007, 11:23:32 PM
Without intellectual stimulation I just don't know what I would do!

Probably read Ayn Rand?

It's certainly something one can do without a lick of intellectual stimulation.

Nah, I prefer Karl Marx.  There's some really stimulating material!

I have to believe you're just playing to your shtick now; you're really not that silly, are you?

I was kind of mad at you and Miss P playing the Rand card.  It's sort of a cheap shot. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Astro on June 11, 2007, 02:02:26 AM
 ::)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Astro on June 11, 2007, 02:08:43 AM
I was kind of mad at you and Miss P playing the Rand card.  It's sort of a cheap shot. 

ever see what happens when a pitcher throws a changeup like 10 times in a row?


(http://www.bronxpride.com/files/images/alex-rodriguez-smacks-home-run.jpg)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: t... on June 11, 2007, 07:20:01 AM
That was dirty, J.

Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: __ on June 11, 2007, 07:59:47 AM
I like when J gets dirty.
jsia
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 11, 2007, 12:07:41 PM
Nah, I prefer Karl Marx.  There's some really stimulating material!

I have to believe you're just playing to your shtick now; you're really not that silly, are you?

I was kind of mad at you and Miss P playing the Rand card.  It's sort of a cheap shot. 

Beg pardon?  Why is it cheap to make fun of Ayn Rand?  To my mind, it would be cheap only if you accepted that her political philosophy is as insipid as tj. and I have implied.

Moreover, the Marx crack doesn't make any sense.  I feel like the caveman's shrink in that Geico commercial.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Jolie Was Here on June 11, 2007, 12:08:52 PM
Nah, I prefer Karl Marx.  There's some really stimulating material!

I have to believe you're just playing to your shtick now; you're really not that silly, are you?

I was kind of mad at you and Miss P playing the Rand card.  It's sort of a cheap shot. 

Beg pardon?  Why is it cheap to make fun of Ayn Rand?  To my mind, it would be cheap only if you accepted that her political philosophy is as insipid as tj. and I have implied.

Moreover, the Marx crack doesn't make any sense.  I feel like the caveman's shrink in that Geico commercial.

Have I told you lately that I love you?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: The Poster on June 11, 2007, 05:50:51 PM
Nah, I prefer Karl Marx. There's some really stimulating material!

I have to believe you're just playing to your shtick now; you're really not that silly, are you?

I was kind of mad at you and Miss P playing the Rand card. It's sort of a cheap shot.

Beg pardon? Why is it cheap to make fun of Ayn Rand? To my mind, it would be cheap only if you accepted that her political philosophy is as insipid as tj. and I have implied.

Moreover, the Marx crack doesn't make any sense. I feel like the caveman's shrink in that Geico commercial.

Have I told you lately that I love you?

is jolie going to start singing now?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Jolie Was Here on June 11, 2007, 06:18:32 PM
Nah, I prefer Karl Marx. There's some really stimulating material!

I have to believe you're just playing to your shtick now; you're really not that silly, are you?

I was kind of mad at you and Miss P playing the Rand card. It's sort of a cheap shot.

Beg pardon? Why is it cheap to make fun of Ayn Rand? To my mind, it would be cheap only if you accepted that her political philosophy is as insipid as tj. and I have implied.

Moreover, the Marx crack doesn't make any sense. I feel like the caveman's shrink in that Geico commercial.

Have I told you lately that I love you?

is jolie going to start singing now?

Start?   ;D
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Thistle on June 11, 2007, 08:01:44 PM
Nah, I prefer Karl Marx.  There's some really stimulating material!

I have to believe you're just playing to your shtick now; you're really not that silly, are you?

I was kind of mad at you and Miss P playing the Rand card.  It's sort of a cheap shot. 

Beg pardon?  Why is it cheap to make fun of Ayn Rand?  To my mind, it would be cheap only if you accepted that her political philosophy is as insipid as tj. and I have implied.

Moreover, the Marx crack doesn't make any sense.  I feel like the caveman's shrink in that Geico commercial.

seriously.  i mean why in the hell would the caveman put his mother on speaker phone?  what a loser.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 11, 2007, 08:14:34 PM
Have I told you lately that I love you?

Could we arrange this song as a romantic duet?   ;D
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on June 11, 2007, 08:16:38 PM
Could we arrange this song as a romantic duet?   ;D

::Imagines likely singing voices...kills self::
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 11, 2007, 08:19:47 PM
::Imagines likely singing voices...kills self::

As I've mentioned, my therapist says I have a lovely voice!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on June 11, 2007, 08:22:05 PM
::Imagines likely singing voices...kills self::

As I've mentioned, my therapist says I have a lovely voice!

 ;D
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on June 11, 2007, 08:23:12 PM
As I've mentioned, my therapist says I have a lovely voice!

No one said Psychology was easy.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 11, 2007, 09:53:36 PM
As I've mentioned, my therapist says I have a lovely voice!

No one said Psychology was easy.

NYU!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Hank Rearden on June 11, 2007, 10:02:57 PM
NYU!

Que?

(http://www.macgamer.com/Reviews-old/BORG/Q.gif)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Hank Rearden on June 11, 2007, 10:06:22 PM
holy protons.

hank nerded out.

It's true.  I'm a closet



























nerd. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 11, 2007, 10:08:55 PM
NYU!

Que?

I think I give you more credit for keeping up than you deserve.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Jolie Was Here on June 11, 2007, 10:19:28 PM
NYU!

Que?

I think I give you more credit for keeping up than you deserve.

I think this is probably true. 

And I'll have you know that I have a lovely voice.  There's not much I can do well (and nuthin' I can do really well), but girlfriend can make pleasant music.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Astro on June 11, 2007, 10:39:58 PM
I think I give you more credit than you deserve.


I know.   >:(
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: obamacon on June 11, 2007, 11:17:35 PM
I think I give you more credit for keeping up than you deserve.

If I read the current page in its entirety it's quite the event.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on June 12, 2007, 05:56:46 AM
I think I give you more credit for keeping up than you deserve.

If I read the current page in its entirety it's quite the event.

To make a long story short:

So what you're saying, Steve, is that the difference between attending NYU and attending Michigan is making millions of dollars on the one hand and a miserable existence on the other?  Right.  I'm sure that's true.

It's hard to believe he turned down that unique bounty of opportunity at NYU, isn't it?

...

okay, who are you?  you're too funny to be stan.

lolz

NYU!  (My new seal of approval)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Thistle on June 12, 2007, 06:35:46 AM
NYU!

Que?

I think I give you more credit for keeping up than you deserve.

I think this is probably true. 

And I'll have you know that I have a lovely voice.  There's not much I can do well (and nuthin' I can do really well), but girlfriend can make pleasant music.


i'll bet
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: The Poster on June 12, 2007, 04:52:22 PM
NYU!

Que?

I think I give you more credit for keeping up than you deserve.

I think this is probably true.

And I'll have you know that I have a lovely voice. There's not much I can do well (and nuthin' I can do really well), but girlfriend can make pleasant music.

You realize now you have to perform for us.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Jolie Was Here on June 12, 2007, 04:57:19 PM
NYU!

Que?

I think I give you more credit for keeping up than you deserve.

I think this is probably true. 

And I'll have you know that I have a lovely voice.  There's not much I can do well (and nuthin' I can do really well), but girlfriend can make pleasant music.


i'll bet

:D

You realize now you have to perform for us.

We'll just see about that.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: The Poster on June 12, 2007, 04:59:48 PM
NYU!

Que?

I think I give you more credit for keeping up than you deserve.

I think this is probably true.

And I'll have you know that I have a lovely voice. There's not much I can do well (and nuthin' I can do really well), but girlfriend can make pleasant music.


i'll bet

:D

You realize now you have to perform for us.

We'll just see about that.

Yes, we will.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on July 02, 2007, 10:27:51 AM
anyone getting one of those certificates?

for ex...

http://www.law.asu.edu/?id=505

Certificates offered in:

    *
      Environmental Law
    *
      Health Care Law
    *
      Indian Law
    *
      Intellectual Property Law
    *
      Law, Science & Technology

Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: The Poster on July 03, 2007, 01:22:53 PM
Aren't you just looking for one in Sex Law?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on July 03, 2007, 01:27:17 PM
whoa, sweet, they have one?!!?!?!?!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: The Poster on July 03, 2007, 01:56:13 PM
whoa, sweet, they have one?!!?!?!?!

some have journals on gender law. looks like columbia has a gender law clinic http://www.law.columbia.edu/focusareas/clinics/sexuality
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on July 03, 2007, 01:59:59 PM
schwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww iiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnngggggggg ggggggggggggg!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on July 03, 2007, 02:49:25 PM
Blueb is going to do gender law? 

<--- seriously confuzzled.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Jolie Was Here on July 03, 2007, 02:53:09 PM
Blueb is going to do gender law? 

<--- seriously confuzzled.

I think he just misunderstands what it involves.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: The Poster on July 03, 2007, 02:53:27 PM
Blueb is going to do gender law?

<--- seriously confuzzled.

he just likes the idea of sex law. like someone wanting to do intellectual property cause it sounds cool without really understanding it.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on July 03, 2007, 03:32:49 PM
Blueb is going to do gender law? 

<--- seriously confuzzled.

hey, hot bitches need representation too!
your honor, my client is way to hot for prison...
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Randy Savage on July 03, 2007, 03:48:12 PM
 :D
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on July 03, 2007, 04:59:19 PM
 ::)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: The Poster on July 03, 2007, 08:55:11 PM
Blueb is going to do gender law?

<--- seriously confuzzled.

hey, hot bitches need representation too!
your honor, my client is way to hot for prison...

Sex Law isn't Sexy Law, lol.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on July 04, 2007, 06:23:46 AM
look up debra lafave

all my clients would be that hot!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on July 25, 2007, 06:39:44 AM
for those of you living on your own, how did the financial situation work out?

eating alot of PB&J's?

the return of the Ramen noodles?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: The Poster on July 25, 2007, 01:28:18 PM
for those of you living on your own, how did the financial situation work out?

eating alot of PB&J's?

the return of the Ramen noodles?

NO! You can health healthy and deliciously without spending a fortune if you are a careful shopper.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: John Blackthorne on July 25, 2007, 01:31:43 PM
for those of you living on your own, how did the financial situation work out?

eating alot of PB&J's?

the return of the Ramen noodles?

NO! You can health healthy and deliciously without spending a fortune if you are a careful shopper.

if you (blueb) weren't such a lazy sack o' poo and learned to cook for yourself.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on July 25, 2007, 01:33:15 PM
those were just examples

did you find yourself stretched pretty tight budget wise?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: John Blackthorne on July 25, 2007, 01:37:15 PM
those were just examples

did you find yourself stretched pretty tight budget wise?

it depends on how much you pay for rent, how much you spend on "entertainment," how much you spend shopping, how much you spend in general.  if your rent is below budget, you don't drink every weekend, and you don't buy unnecessary things (this includes porn memberships blue), then you should have money to spend on eating well.  if, on the other hand, you drink too much and spend money on crap, then yes, you will be eating ramen and mac 'n cheese.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on July 25, 2007, 01:41:28 PM
those were just examples

did you find yourself stretched pretty tight budget wise?

it depends on how much you pay for rent, how much you spend on "entertainment," how much you spend shopping, how much you spend in general.  if your rent is below budget, you don't drink every weekend, and you don't buy unnecessary things (this includes porn memberships blue), then you should have money to spend on eating well.  if, on the other hand, you drink too much and spend money on crap, then yes, you will be eating ramen and mac 'n cheese.

its only 20 a month!!!

some of the numbers ive seen the schools provide seem to be awfully low, thats why i wonder.

10k for housing in miami for example.  are they nuts?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on July 25, 2007, 04:39:40 PM
those were just examples

did you find yourself stretched pretty tight budget wise?

it depends on how much you pay for rent, how much you spend on "entertainment," how much you spend shopping, how much you spend in general.  if your rent is below budget, you don't drink every weekend, and you don't buy unnecessary things (this includes porn memberships blue), then you should have money to spend on eating well.  if, on the other hand, you drink too much and spend money on crap, then yes, you will be eating ramen and mac 'n cheese.

its only 20 a month!!!

some of the numbers ive seen the schools provide seem to be awfully low, thats why i wonder.

10k for housing in miami for example.  are they nuts?

Maybe they're talking about student housing?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on July 25, 2007, 05:48:50 PM
those both might be possible, not sure...
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: John Blackthorne on July 25, 2007, 05:52:52 PM
those both might be possible, not sure...

you don't get to live on your own in a swanky one-bedroom apt blueb.  you MUST MAKE SACRIFICES!!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on July 26, 2007, 02:30:46 PM
adult dvd empire

i wont even list all the free sites there are...
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on July 26, 2007, 07:40:57 PM
if you use firefox, get the downloadhelper extension

check the box

thank me later.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: t... on August 01, 2007, 12:27:08 PM
...
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on August 10, 2007, 01:55:51 PM
http://susancartierliebel.typepad.com/build_a_solo_practice/2007/08/91-of-lawyers-u.html


for those of you in school or heading to it, it might be prudent to take some sort of law marketing class

better to take it and not need it than to assume you wont need it but do.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on August 13, 2007, 05:14:06 AM
please tell me classes dont start b4 10!!!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on August 13, 2007, 06:58:50 AM
please tell me classes dont start b4 10!!!

I have a class that starts at 7:45 am this semester. 

Seriously, blue.  Please tell me you don't honestly think you won't have class before 10 am.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on August 13, 2007, 07:03:46 AM
please tell me classes dont start b4 10!!!

I have a class that starts at 7.45 am am this semester. 

Seriously, blue.  Please tell me you don't honestly think you won't have class before 10 am.

 :o :o :o :o

i was really, really hoping.   :-\
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on August 13, 2007, 07:13:07 AM
im only up then cause i have to be.

was hoping LS was a bit more sleep friendly...
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: keelee on August 13, 2007, 11:28:51 AM
http://susancartierliebel.typepad.com/build_a_solo_practice/2007/08/91-of-lawyers-u.html


for those of you in school or heading to it, it might be prudent to take some sort of law marketing class

better to take it and not need it than to assume you wont need it but do.

At USC, Sections I-K don't have class before 10:05AM, and on Thursdays and Fridays their first class is at 11:30AM. I think sections A-H officially hate them (in the non-violent way). I'm certainly jealous of them.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on August 13, 2007, 11:33:14 AM
I think everyone in 1L at my school had a 9 o'clock class and a few sections of legal writing started at 8 o'clock. It wasn't so much starting at 9 that bothered me, it was that during second semester I started at 9 and didn't end until 4:15 three days a week.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on August 13, 2007, 11:35:34 AM
http://susancartierliebel.typepad.com/build_a_solo_practice/2007/08/91-of-lawyers-u.html


for those of you in school or heading to it, it might be prudent to take some sort of law marketing class

better to take it and not need it than to assume you wont need it but do.

At USC, Sections I-K don't have class before 10:05AM, and on Thursdays and Fridays their first class is at 11:30AM. I think sections A-H officially hate them (in the non-violent way). I'm certainly jealous of them.

man, that is sweet!



I think everyone in 1L at my school had a 9 o'clock class and a few sections of legal writing started at 8 o'clock. It wasn't so much starting at 9 that bothered me, it was that during second semester I started at 9 and didn't end until 4:15 three days a week.

that is the opposite of sweet.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: John Blackthorne on August 13, 2007, 12:53:25 PM

i have two 8:30am classes this semester.  it will be good for me. 

one of the 1L sections has civpro at 8:30am on Tues and Thurs.  And, this is funny, the administration changed 1L Friday classes to 9am (to discourage Thursday night drinking?) HAAHAHAHAAAAAHAAA.  Last year my friday classes were at 10am, so at least that was bearable with a hangover.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on August 13, 2007, 01:43:57 PM
oh yeah, good luck to all of you starting back this week (or soon)...

:)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on August 13, 2007, 02:33:35 PM
I had 9 a.m. classes all through 1L.

Am I the only one who doesn't mind morning classes? I'd much rather be done earlier than begin later...

then again, I'm a morning person.

No. I'd much rather go 9-12 than have a schedule like 1-4.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: m, on August 13, 2007, 03:21:39 PM
I had 9 a.m. classes all through 1L.

Am I the only one who doesn't mind morning classes? I'd much rather be done earlier than begin later...

then again, I'm a morning person.

No. I'd much rather go 9-12 than have a schedule like 1-4.

hi queencru! how's things?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: latinlord on August 13, 2007, 03:46:31 PM
My profs don't let you off if you say you don't know.  They go to a question you do know then try to lead to the answer they were going for.

The work is so different from what I expected.  You read 2 pages 2 twice, take careful notes, then go to class and have a prof point out slowly through questioning 20 things you didn't notice about it.  Then at the end you find out the next case completely reverses or changes the rule established by the first, so all that work is just for historical interest.  Then you read a 3rd case and you find out the second was the odd one, and the rule to take away is the one established in the first.  It is like playing Where's Waldo, but with words instead of pictures and all the words are in a foreign language, so you have to translate them before playing.

OMG!! that is hilarious and soooo true!! Reminds me of Torts!! Especially with Negligence principles..haha remember pasgraf and proximate cause!?? haha my professor was upsessed with that case and Cardozo!! haah
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: The Poster on August 13, 2007, 03:48:28 PM
My profs don't let you off if you say you don't know. They go to a question you do know then try to lead to the answer they were going for.

The work is so different from what I expected. You read 2 pages 2 twice, take careful notes, then go to class and have a prof point out slowly through questioning 20 things you didn't notice about it. Then at the end you find out the next case completely reverses or changes the rule established by the first, so all that work is just for historical interest. Then you read a 3rd case and you find out the second was the odd one, and the rule to take away is the one established in the first. It is like playing Where's Waldo, but with words instead of pictures and all the words are in a foreign language, so you have to translate them before playing.

OMG!! that is hilarious and soooo true!! Reminds me of Torts!! Especially with Negligence principles..haha remember pasgraf and proximate cause!?? haha my professor was upsessed with that case and Cardozo!! haah

LATINLORD!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: latinlord on August 13, 2007, 03:48:58 PM
im only up then cause i have to be.

was hoping LS was a bit more sleep friendly...

Haha if you are a 1L day student expect 8am classes!! haha but once you are a 2L like me... expect to pick your classes.. right now i'm don't have one till 11 40 am and i'm on a waitlist for a class at 230pm and if i get into that one.. i'm dropping the 11:40 class..haha awesome!!!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: latinlord on August 13, 2007, 03:49:41 PM
My profs don't let you off if you say you don't know. They go to a question you do know then try to lead to the answer they were going for.

The work is so different from what I expected. You read 2 pages 2 twice, take careful notes, then go to class and have a prof point out slowly through questioning 20 things you didn't notice about it. Then at the end you find out the next case completely reverses or changes the rule established by the first, so all that work is just for historical interest. Then you read a 3rd case and you find out the second was the odd one, and the rule to take away is the one established in the first. It is like playing Where's Waldo, but with words instead of pictures and all the words are in a foreign language, so you have to translate them before playing.

OMG!! that is hilarious and soooo true!! Reminds me of Torts!! Especially with Negligence principles..haha remember pasgraf and proximate cause!?? haha my professor was upsessed with that case and Cardozo!! haah

LATINLORD!

HEY!!!! Poster!! How are things??!! what school do you attend??? Thanks for the hello!!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: The Poster on August 13, 2007, 03:52:09 PM
My profs don't let you off if you say you don't know. They go to a question you do know then try to lead to the answer they were going for.

The work is so different from what I expected. You read 2 pages 2 twice, take careful notes, then go to class and have a prof point out slowly through questioning 20 things you didn't notice about it. Then at the end you find out the next case completely reverses or changes the rule established by the first, so all that work is just for historical interest. Then you read a 3rd case and you find out the second was the odd one, and the rule to take away is the one established in the first. It is like playing Where's Waldo, but with words instead of pictures and all the words are in a foreign language, so you have to translate them before playing.

OMG!! that is hilarious and soooo true!! Reminds me of Torts!! Especially with Negligence principles..haha remember pasgraf and proximate cause!?? haha my professor was upsessed with that case and Cardozo!! haah

LATINLORD!

HEY!!!! Poster!! How are things??!! what school do you attend??? Thanks for the hello!!

hey, I'm a michigan summer starter. glad to see you are still around and now a 2L, wow!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on August 13, 2007, 03:59:24 PM
AND thanking me for yet another reunion...
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: The Poster on August 13, 2007, 04:01:41 PM
AND thanking me for yet another reunion...

another?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: latinlord on August 13, 2007, 04:13:10 PM
My profs don't let you off if you say you don't know. They go to a question you do know then try to lead to the answer they were going for.

The work is so different from what I expected. You read 2 pages 2 twice, take careful notes, then go to class and have a prof point out slowly through questioning 20 things you didn't notice about it. Then at the end you find out the next case completely reverses or changes the rule established by the first, so all that work is just for historical interest. Then you read a 3rd case and you find out the second was the odd one, and the rule to take away is the one established in the first. It is like playing Where's Waldo, but with words instead of pictures and all the words are in a foreign language, so you have to translate them before playing.

OMG!! that is hilarious and soooo true!! Reminds me of Torts!! Especially with Negligence principles..haha remember pasgraf and proximate cause!?? haha my professor was upsessed with that case and Cardozo!! haah

LATINLORD!

HEY!!!! Poster!! How are things??!! what school do you attend??? Thanks for the hello!!

hey, I'm a michigan summer starter. glad to see you are still around and now a 2L, wow!

OH ok... great!! i was a summer startup also! glad to hear things are going well at Michigan.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on August 20, 2007, 07:13:00 AM
for those starting your 2nd or 3rd year, what unexpected expenses came up?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: The Poster on August 20, 2007, 11:40:55 AM
for those starting your 2nd or 3rd year, what unexpected expenses came up?

Just some general stuff I did not plan for when I was making my first year budget:

ABA membership fee
Local bar association membership fee
$ to go to local bar association lunches, CLEís etc.
Dry cleaning a lot more than I thought I would
Eating food at school/being stuck at school without having brought anything with me to eat
Drinking lots of mountain dew from the vending machines at school to keep awake
Going through a ream of paper and a printer cartridge at least once a month (more when legal writing stuff was due)
$ for making lots of copies
Getting a Tivo so I could actually watch something worthwhile when I had time in my schedule to actually watch TV.
Going through/losing a lot of pens/highlighters/sticky notes
Getting a back up hard drive to back all my crap up, plus a thumb drive to keep a copy that was not connected to my computer/internet at all
Business cards
Thank-you cards for after interviews/meetings
smoking more than I did before LS
Generally blowing money on stuff I donít need but think I need at the time
Eating out more than I thought I would

All I can think of right now


do a lot of people really do bar membership while still in law school?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on August 20, 2007, 06:55:47 PM
I'm a member of the local bar association and the state bar association.  It's a good idea especially if you want to work in the state but have no real ties to it.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on August 20, 2007, 06:56:57 PM
I'm a member of the local bar association and the state bar association.  It's a good idea especially if you want to work in the state but have no real ties to it.

do u go to the meetings?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on August 20, 2007, 07:04:19 PM
the one that offers 3 for 1

 ;D :D ;D :D
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: fuwaf on August 21, 2007, 06:51:05 AM
I'm a member of the local bar association and the state bar association.  It's a good idea especially if you want to work in the state but have no real ties to it.

do u go to the meetings?

No, but I did go to one reception that was set up by the young lawyers of the local bar association.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: The Poster on August 21, 2007, 11:59:47 AM
I wonder how much it really matters in the scheme of things.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on August 21, 2007, 12:03:08 PM
well, if your good at networking, it could make a huge difference.  ;D

or

if your bad at drinking (at a meeting), it could make a huge difference.  :o
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on August 23, 2007, 12:58:33 PM
what are the best law brief books?

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/002-0287264-2380823?initialSearch=1&url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=law+briefs&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on August 26, 2007, 04:55:41 PM
what briefing tips can u share?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on August 26, 2007, 05:57:50 PM
might we inquire about your format?   :)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on August 26, 2007, 06:06:09 PM
I stopped briefing after about 3 weeks.



oh

 :o    did u come up with a better idea, or just decided you didnt need it?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on August 26, 2007, 07:31:49 PM
so, when you were asked to do your first brief, were you given an easy case and lots of instructions?  :)

or was it - heres the case, a brief should look like this, see you next week?   :'(
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on August 26, 2007, 08:34:53 PM
is there any ez way of sifting thru all the junk of a case to get to the meat?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: aerynn on August 26, 2007, 09:08:12 PM
is there any ez way of sifting thru all the junk of a case to get to the meat?

Practice, practice, practice.

Or westlaw and lexis. :-P
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on August 26, 2007, 09:48:33 PM
the 1st we were asked to do is marbury vs madison

not as straight forward as i woulda hoped.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on August 26, 2007, 09:49:49 PM
the 1st we were asked to do is marbury vs madison

not as straight forward as i woulda hoped.

You started law school, blueb?  I thought that was next year.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on August 26, 2007, 09:52:15 PM
the 1st we were asked to do is marbury vs madison

not as straight forward as i woulda hoped.

You started law school, blueb?  I thought that was next year.

no, a constitution class.  taught by a lawyer.

she is, however, a Lilf  ;D


and yeah, i know its online, but you dont really learn it that way...
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on August 26, 2007, 10:01:40 PM
Marbury v. Madison is a difficult case to start out with.  Nonetheless, I think the best technique for understanding cases is just to read carefully a few times, the first time without underlining or highlighting (or only circling difficult terms), and then to try to write a summary for yourself, checking back in on the case when you run into trouble.  I can't offer a lot of advice about briefing because I think it is really a matter of what works for you personally (and because I do not brief myself), but just writing out definitions for terms the court discusses, a restatement of the holding in your own words, a few notes to remind you what the factual background of the case was, etc., is a good idea.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: H4CS on August 26, 2007, 10:09:39 PM
Marbury v. Madison is a difficult case to start out with.  Nonetheless, I think the best technique for understanding cases is just to read carefully a few times, the first time without underlining or highlighting (or only circling difficult terms), and then try to write a summary for yourself, checking back in on the case when you run into trouble.  I can't offer a lot of advice about briefing because I think it is really a matter of what works for you personally (and because I do not brief myself), but just writing out definitions for terms the court discusses, a restatement of the holding in your own words, a few notes to remind you what the factual background of the case was, etc., is a good idea.

I think you should just hum a few bars and then figure it out from there.

My first case was People v. Newton.  I had to wait until the end of the class to point out it was, in fact, Huey Newton we were talking about.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on August 26, 2007, 10:15:22 PM
My first case was People v. Newton.  I had to wait until the end of the class to point out it was, in fact, Huey Newton we were talking about.

At least 80% of the people in my class had no idea who he was.  And people wonder why I'm so depressed all the time.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: H4CS on August 26, 2007, 10:18:26 PM
My first case was People v. Newton.  I had to wait until the end of the class to point out it was, in fact, Huey Newton we were talking about.

At least 80% of the people in my class had no idea who he was.  And people wonder why I'm so depressed all the time.

I was depressed when people didn't recognize him from the fact pattern.  Man, that's rough.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on August 26, 2007, 10:28:09 PM
I had to Google him just now. 

Well at least you know your relative pronouns.  Have a stab at correcting this thread's subject heading.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: H4CS on August 26, 2007, 10:29:49 PM
I had to Google him just now. 

Well at least you know your relative pronouns.  Have a stab at correcting this thread's subject heading.

For those them have had started that there law school?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: t... on August 26, 2007, 10:52:36 PM
My first case was People v. Newton.  I had to wait until the end of the class to point out it was, in fact, Huey Newton we were talking about.

At least 80% of the people in my class had no idea who he was.  And people wonder why I'm so depressed all the time.

I was depressed when people didn't recognize him from the fact pattern.  Man, that's rough.

Thou?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: The Poster on August 27, 2007, 05:11:14 AM
My first case was People v. Newton. I had to wait until the end of the class to point out it was, in fact, Huey Newton we were talking about.

At least 80% of the people in my class had no idea who he was. And people wonder why I'm so depressed all the time.

I was depressed when people didn't recognize him from the fact pattern. Man, that's rough.

Thou?

:D I remember when he had that tar!
(http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAnewtonH.jpg)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: queencruella on August 27, 2007, 06:28:16 AM
I had to Google him just now. 

Well at least you know your relative pronouns.  Have a stab at correcting this thread's subject heading.

I see you've given up on blueb- he is a lost cause.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on August 27, 2007, 06:50:38 AM
I had to Google him just now. 

Well at least you know your relative pronouns.  Have a stab at correcting this thread's subject heading.

I see you've given up on blueb- he is a lost cause.

thats is sooooooooooooo note true!    :P
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on August 27, 2007, 07:56:30 AM
I had to Google him just now. 

Well at least you know your relative pronouns.  Have a stab at correcting this thread's subject heading.

and P, your more than welcome to come down here this winter and give me some lessons in the art of grammar.


I must warn you though, i suffer from a bad case of s3xlexia   ;)


ps - bring cady, she can be in charge of punishing me when i make a mistake

witch eye wood neber doo!   ;D
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: H4CS on August 27, 2007, 08:53:12 AM
I had to Google him just now. 

Well at least you know your relative pronouns.  Have a stab at correcting this thread's subject heading.

I see you've given up on blueb- he is a lost cause.

I've said this forever.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on September 10, 2007, 09:14:52 AM
ok, what are you 1L's thinking?

2L's?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: bass on September 10, 2007, 09:21:52 AM
Marbury v. Madison is a difficult case to start out with.  Nonetheless, I think the best technique for understanding cases is just to read carefully a few times, the first time without underlining or highlighting (or only circling difficult terms), and then try to write a summary for yourself, checking back in on the case when you run into trouble.  I can't offer a lot of advice about briefing because I think it is really a matter of what works for you personally (and because I do not brief myself), but just writing out definitions for terms the court discusses, a restatement of the holding in your own words, a few notes to remind you what the factual background of the case was, etc., is a good idea.

I think you should just hum a few bars and then figure it out from there.

My first case was People v. Newton.  I had to wait until the end of the class to point out it was, in fact, Huey Newton we were talking about.

Still don't remember him.  Do you mean Huey Lewis?  Or was Huey Newton the one who did the Back to the Future music stuff?  Anyway, the first case I remember was about eating people.  I understand that British food is disgusting, but I wouldn't eat the father of Spiderman.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: The Poster on September 10, 2007, 05:32:20 PM
Marbury v. Madison is a difficult case to start out with. Nonetheless, I think the best technique for understanding cases is just to read carefully a few times, the first time without underlining or highlighting (or only circling difficult terms), and then try to write a summary for yourself, checking back in on the case when you run into trouble. I can't offer a lot of advice about briefing because I think it is really a matter of what works for you personally (and because I do not brief myself), but just writing out definitions for terms the court discusses, a restatement of the holding in your own words, a few notes to remind you what the factual background of the case was, etc., is a good idea.

I think you should just hum a few bars and then figure it out from there.

My first case was People v. Newton. I had to wait until the end of the class to point out it was, in fact, Huey Newton we were talking about.

Still don't remember him. Do you mean Huey Lewis? Or was Huey Newton the one who did the Back to the Future music stuff? Anyway, the first case I remember was about eating people. I understand that British food is disgusting, but I wouldn't eat the father of Spiderman.

does whatever a spider can.

(http://home.comcast.net/~tadams14/Spiderman_010.jpg)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on September 10, 2007, 07:03:32 PM
for those of you that have started, did you have second thoughts about the school u choose?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Kirk Lazarus on September 10, 2007, 07:22:52 PM
for those of you that have started, did you have second thoughts about the school u choose?

Yep, and still do.

Still, I'm happy.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on September 11, 2007, 12:07:54 PM
for those of you that have started, did you have second thoughts about the school u choose?

I like the school I am at, I wish it was cheaper, but other than that I am happy

thats my biggest worry
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on September 16, 2007, 06:11:19 PM
so, now that we are in a month or so, what have you 1L's noticed to be the biggest dif between LS and undergrad?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Para Legal on September 16, 2007, 06:35:05 PM
1. There are boys. (I went to a women's college.)

2. Everyone is very intelligent, and thus we all have a complex about being the dumbest kid in the room, most for the first time in our lives.

3. I was relieved to identify two gunners in my section, meaning that my own fears of becoming labeled a gunner have been quashed.

4. For the first time in my life I am actively shutting up in class, and it's working to my advantage. See above, #3.

5. It is at times harder and easier than I thought.

6. It's everything I wanted it to be.

7. It's nothing like I thought it would be.

8. I hate law school.

9. I love law school.

10. You won't know what you've gotten yourself into until you've gotten yourself into it.

Cheers,

Para  ;)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on September 16, 2007, 07:08:45 PM
is there anything you could have done b4 hand to make the transition easier?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Para Legal on September 16, 2007, 08:48:59 PM
is there anything you could have done b4 hand to make the transition easier?

Not really. As transitions go, mine was fairly easy...quit job, load husband and daughter and contents of house into Penske truck, move into rental house, go to orientation. I was very lucky in that I have a built in support system and we didn't have any culture shock to deal with (we stayed in the Midwest, within 6-8 hours of where we were originally.)

I spent lots of time talking to law students, hanging on LSD, thinking through what would happen, and in all honesty, was probably as prepared as one can get. The point is, that law school is different for everyone. About 85% of it was along the lines of what I expected. No matter how much you prepare, something is always different. The best thing to know is probably to just roll with the punches and study hard...eventually (I'm told) you find your groove.

Cheers,

Para  ;)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: juliemccoy on September 16, 2007, 09:10:41 PM
so, now that we are in a month or so, what have you 1L's noticed to be the biggest dif between LS and undergrad?

is there anything you could have done b4 hand to make the transition easier?

The biggest difference is that you have to figure out a lot on your own. Class time isn't a time for introducing a completely alien concept. It is discussing what you have read and clarifying the rule.

There's a lot more reading that you ever had in undergrad.

There's a lot more personal accountability than in undergrad.

And regarding your second question, I didn't believe the law students and lawyers who told me there was nothing I could do to prepare other than enjoy my summer. Now I believe them. Nothing you can do before coming to law school will prepare you for law school. You will have an orientation a few days before classes begin where they will teach you how to brief/what to look for when reading, and give you a basic overview of the legal system.

The Poli-Sci majors don't have any advantage over the Engineering/English/Communication/Biology majors.

I think if you have good study habits, and you are motivated, you will succeed. I would advise holding off on buying supplements until you are a few weeks in. Go to class, go to the library and test out the study aids they have on file there and see what works best for you. Some people love E&E's, others do better with Emmanuel's.

No one technique for succeeding at law school will do, b/c everyone learns differently.

Get your LSAT done, your applications in and just try to relax. Easier said than done!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Leo on September 17, 2007, 01:08:00 AM
so, now that we are in a month or so, what have you 1L's noticed to be the biggest dif between LS and undergrad?

is there anything you could have done b4 hand to make the transition easier?

The biggest difference is that you have to figure out a lot on your own. Class time isn't a time for introducing a completely alien concept. It is discussing what you have read and clarifying the rule.

There's a lot more reading that you ever had in undergrad.

There's a lot more personal accountability than in undergrad.

And regarding your second question, I didn't believe the law students and lawyers who told me there was nothing I could do to prepare other than enjoy my summer. Now I believe them. Nothing you can do before coming to law school will prepare you for law school. You will have an orientation a few days before classes begin where they will teach you how to brief/what to look for when reading, and give you a basic overview of the legal system.

The Poli-Sci majors don't have any advantage over the Engineering/English/Communication/Biology majors.

I think if you have good study habits, and you are motivated, you will succeed. I would advise holding off on buying supplements until you are a few weeks in. Go to class, go to the library and test out the study aids they have on file there and see what works best for you. Some people love E&E's, others do better with Emmanuel's.

No one technique for succeeding at law school will do, b/c everyone learns differently.

Get your LSAT done, your applications in and just try to relax. Easier said than done!

spot on
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Leo on September 17, 2007, 01:09:38 AM
And of course, the unbearable amount of reading isn't enough. There's also an unbearable amount of prep to be done before and after reading
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: t... on September 17, 2007, 10:42:53 AM
And of course, the unbearable amount of reading isn't enough. There's also an unbearable amount of prep to be done before and after reading

 ???

1. Open book.
2. Read. Stare at page.
3. Crack Slam a dozen beers.
4. Think Sleep a bit lot.

 :)

Sounds good.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Leo on September 18, 2007, 08:34:18 PM
And of course, the unbearable amount of reading isn't enough. There's also an unbearable amount of prep to be done before and after reading

 ???

1. Open book.
2. Read.
3. Crack a beer.
4. Think a bit.

 :)

in my case, the list would continue

5. Forget everything I just read
6. Have no brief or notes for class
7. Get my ass handed to me by prof.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on September 18, 2007, 08:35:47 PM
And of course, the unbearable amount of reading isn't enough. There's also an unbearable amount of prep to be done before and after reading

 ???

1. Open book.
2. Read.
3. Crack a beer.
4. Think a bit.

 :)

in my case, the list would continue

5. Forget everything I just read
6. Have no brief or notes for class
7. Get my ass handed to me by prof.

then you stopped 2 steps 2 early


8. Off to buy the prof some beers
9. All is forgiven.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Leo on September 18, 2007, 08:42:04 PM
And of course, the unbearable amount of reading isn't enough. There's also an unbearable amount of prep to be done before and after reading

 ???

1. Open book.
2. Read.
3. Crack a beer.
4. Think a bit.

 :)

in my case, the list would continue

5. Forget everything I just read
6. Have no brief or notes for class
7. Get my ass handed to me by prof.

then you stopped 2 steps 2 early


8. Off to buy the prof some beers
9. All is forgiven.

I'm saving the bolded for exam time
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on September 28, 2007, 06:42:41 AM
How much time are you 1Ls spending studying per day?

2L's?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: chevelle on September 29, 2007, 12:43:11 AM

2L's?

i want to shoot myself sometimes. but i am on law review.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on September 29, 2007, 08:05:54 AM
How much time are you 1Ls spending studying per day?

2L's?

1L...I work maybe 2-3 hours out of class every day. 

PER class, or total?

and how much is class per day?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on September 29, 2007, 01:42:31 PM
How much time are you 1Ls spending studying per day?

2L's?

1L...I work maybe 2-3 hours out of class every day. 

PER class, or total?

and how much is class per day?

Total.

About 3 hours of class per day, four days a week. 

thats not too bad!
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on September 30, 2007, 09:19:40 PM
i have a friend, a hot ho if i might add, that says she is spending 3-4 hours prep time PER CLASS!

WTF?!?!?1
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Private David Lewis on September 30, 2007, 10:33:20 PM
i have a friend, a hot ho if i might add, that says she is spending 3-4 hours prep time PER CLASS!

WTF?!?!?1

She is probably either a very slow reader, or she is preparing to answer every possible question the prof might ask in class (or both).  If it is the latter, she is wasting time, especially since the hardest and most important questions often rely more on thinking ability than preparation, and especially since the tests generally don't cover things like procedure and the names of the parties involved, etc. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on September 30, 2007, 10:39:52 PM
She is probably either a very slow reader, or she is preparing to answer every possible question the prof might ask in class (or both).  If it is the latter, she is wasting time, especially since the hardest and most important questions often rely more on thinking ability than preparation, and especially since the tests generally don't cover things like procedure and the names of the parties involved, etc. 

Or she has more reading than you do. :)

Also, you don't have 15 or 16 credit-hours per week?  We did first year, and I thought this was standard.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ! B L U E WAR R I O R..! on September 30, 2007, 11:00:42 PM
fully enjoying nyc and the jd work is felt in the smithy of my heart...hard work...but fun... ;)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Private David Lewis on September 30, 2007, 11:06:20 PM
She is probably either a very slow reader, or she is preparing to answer every possible question the prof might ask in class (or both).  If it is the latter, she is wasting time, especially since the hardest and most important questions often rely more on thinking ability than preparation, and especially since the tests generally don't cover things like procedure and the names of the parties involved, etc. 

Or she has more reading than you do. :)

Also, you don't have 15 or 16 credit-hours per week?  We did first year, and I thought this was standard.

Eh, she can't have that much more work. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Miss P on September 30, 2007, 11:18:39 PM
Eh, she can't have that much more work. 

You're probably right.  But she also may have two-hour classes instead of one-hour classes, so maybe she means one-and-a-half or two hours of prep for each class hour?  That seems like a lot more than I do, but not more than I should do, and certainly not altogether outrageous.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Private David Lewis on September 30, 2007, 11:35:53 PM
I have it down to 27.8 minutes of prep per class.   :)

Phew.  Finally a voice of reason. 
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: The Poster on October 01, 2007, 04:24:35 PM
I have it down to 27.8 minutes of prep per class. :)

Phew. Finally a voice of reason.

That gets a bit awkward when I have more than 27 pages of reading. But I'm not one to spoil my averages.

------------

I've started taking notes on cases in dialogue form.

Lower court: we should think about this way.
this court: no, that's dumb, it's this way.
defendant: but but what about....
this court: stfu, n00b, we do it this way.
plaintiff: high five!

notes? eh.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Leo on October 03, 2007, 10:38:19 PM
It's funny how all the energy has been suked out of me so quickly. I started out reading and briefing every case. Now I skim 70% of the reading with a highlighter and ignore the rest
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on October 21, 2007, 08:53:02 PM
are you finding you have any free time?  how much?  enough to stay in shape?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on November 26, 2007, 07:01:25 AM
do your schools have job boards?

do any smaller firms post opps?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on November 26, 2007, 09:41:56 AM
do your schools have job boards?

do any smaller firms post opps?

We have a an online job baord, plus CA sends out like 2 e-mails a week with new postings/opertunties. I have seen small firms on there before many times

do they list pay?    :)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on November 26, 2007, 10:01:03 AM
do your schools have job boards?

do any smaller firms post opps?

We have a an online job baord, plus CA sends out like 2 e-mails a week with new postings/opertunties. I have seen small firms on there before many times

do they list pay?    :)

Sometimes, it depnds on the poster, alot list pay, or a scale, or say neg. others say nothing

next time your on there, care to throw some numbers our way?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: latinlord on November 26, 2007, 06:48:32 PM
3 to 4 hours per assignment... But mainly that is for 1L classes which are harder to understand. When you become a 2L usually the classes are less pressure b/c for instance there isn't a mandatory Socratic method, but instead a sign up panel, so you usually feel more inclined to just read it and write in your book notes. My family law class has a lot of interesting cases and it is a quicker read plus we have a sign up panel where you only really really have to be called on for one week out of the year. I'm still taking Contracts and Property in the evening and they take forever and the information isn't as interesting and is more difficult so it take a lot longer, plus you have the panic factor of suprise socratic method. My second year classes are a lot easier, more relaxed and more interesting. Sadly i'm not looking forward to 3 1L classes next semester and 2 2L classes that are bar courses and still difficult. Evidence and PR.
  In the end it depends on the classes you take, the Bar courses are more difficult than the non-bar courses, some people went insane during moot court but i didn't think it was that bad, the appellate brief only took me 5 days to write, for some it took weeks. For me i'm good at getting writen assignments done, reading is a slow and usually painful process for my eyes, i find it all interesting, but tedious torture all the same. I hope this helps explain the law school experience so far. Ciao
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on November 30, 2007, 08:31:48 PM
Do you find yourself thinking differently?  less normal and more lawyery?

and if so, how does that effect (affect, whatever) your relationships with others?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on December 17, 2007, 11:08:34 AM
how did your medical work out?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on January 08, 2008, 11:40:38 AM
for you 1L's

now that the first term is over

whatcha think?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Astro on January 08, 2008, 02:55:15 PM
for you 1L's

now that the first term is over

whatcha think?


@#!* you.

Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: John Blackthorne on January 08, 2008, 04:40:50 PM
Do you find yourself thinking differently?  less normal and more lawyery?

and if so, how does that effect (affect, whatever) your relationships with others?

i tend to analyze, or, more correctly, attempt to analyze just about everything now.  its really annoying to me and to others around me.  i don't say anything to non-law school people because they don't care.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: juliemccoy on January 11, 2008, 05:52:05 PM
for you 1L's

now that the first term is over

whatcha think?

1) Thank God it's over
2) 5 more semesters until I can become a productive member of society once more
3) After getting my grades, I am pleased to report that your LSAT score is emphatically NOT indicative of your ability to do well in law school!!!! :)
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Thistle on January 11, 2008, 08:55:51 PM
for you 1L's

now that the first term is over

whatcha think?

1) Thank God it's over
2) 5 more semesters until I can become a productive member of society once more
3) After getting my grades, I am pleased to report that your LSAT score is emphatically NOT indicative of your ability to do well in law school!!!! :)


2 more for me.  time flies.

and yes lsat the may foad, the lying dog
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on April 13, 2008, 08:44:36 PM
any more words of wisdom from those ending their 1L?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: The Poster on April 14, 2008, 06:11:02 AM
Don't sweat the small stuff. And, it is all small stuff.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Astro on April 14, 2008, 01:40:06 PM
any more words of wisdom from those ending their 1L?


@#!* you.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Thistle on April 14, 2008, 03:32:45 PM
any more words of wisdom from those ending their 1L?


@#!* you.


in a world filled with unpredictability, your consistency is both comforting and refreshing.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: Astro on April 14, 2008, 03:34:59 PM
any more words of wisdom from those ending their 1L?


@#!* you.


in a world filled with unpredictability, your consistency is both comforting and refreshing.

 :D :D :D
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: skeeball on April 14, 2008, 03:46:53 PM
any more words of wisdom from those ending their 1L?

Be nice to people.
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: ->Soon on April 14, 2008, 04:46:31 PM
how about studying strategies?
Title: Re: for those that have started law school
Post by: John Blackthorne on April 15, 2008, 08:29:16 PM
how about studying strategies?

do it often