Law School Discussion

Specific Groups => Minority and Non-Traditional Law Students => Topic started by: mjb on August 07, 2006, 09:41:53 AM

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Post by: mjb on August 07, 2006, 09:41:53 AM
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Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: Lerting on August 07, 2006, 09:47:56 AM
I've seen many posts regarding this subject and typically the general subject is a great injustice to whites. "A URM got in to University of X and a white didn't even tho the minority had a lsat 3 points lower than the white!!". Lets for a second ignore that LSAT scores vary widely day to day. I've had an 11 point jump in a span of 3 days.

How was the whites upbringing? Do you think the white had major influences pushing him towards academia and achievement? In his family line were his grandparents forbidden from attaining a university level education? Many minorities back then were not allowed to go to a university. I don't know the exact statistics and numbers but I'd be willing to wager a lot of money that a person whos grandfather and parents have a college education have a higher chance of recieving one themselves.

Has this white person ever been refered to as spic or N-word or made to feel inferior about their racial background? The minority will feel out of place in a work or academic environment. I've been in a professional engineering meeting at a major engineering firm where my manager and other co-workers were making remarks that mexicans need to be shipped back to mexico. In this meeting there were 5 white people and 1 mexican(me). They made it very obvious that they viewed me as an inferior. How would this impact ones mindset? I've been asked at work if my parents are illegals and I always feel like I have to apologize for who I am. Is this common for a white person?

I'm in Massachusetts right now and I can only imagine how bad it is for a black person in the south.

Maybe an different analysis should be made. "You've been given every opportunity in the world to succeed and you only scored a 164 with a 3.5 whereas this URM had all the cards stacked against them and managed a 160 with a 3.4. You don't really deserve to get into X University."

boo hoo hoo. no ones making you stay. you can return to mexico city and eat fecal snow if you hate this place so much.
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: Lerting on August 07, 2006, 10:15:37 AM
the problem with AA is that it helps ALLL sorts of blacks, hispanics, and native americans.  even the rich ones.  even the ones that went to my 30,000 a year private school for high school AND middle school.  even the ones who's parents went to harvard.  even the ones who have a trust fund the size of rhode island. 

thats the problem with AA.  it helps too many people that don't deserve help.

What % of minority applicants is that? Very low. I'm certain race and upbringing are considered highly but the number of the trust fund baby minorities is very low :). This person also encounters the same racism in their work place or school that a white does not.

its not low. most urms that benefit are well off. as to your manager's comment he probably was referring to illegals. if you, the legal mexicans didn't support the right of numerous illegals to cross the border and live on the public dole then it wouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: Lerting on August 07, 2006, 10:24:27 AM
Neocons are always keen to toss the baby with the bathwater.

Demonstrating that a certain percentage of welfare recipients abuse the system -- which I do not contest -- is taken as ironclad justfication for axing the system, which of course I do contest.

So AA helps a rich black guy one time. So the hell what? On balance, it does its job.

Ignore these vicious fools.

That plus it's a huge, and probably unwarranted, assumption that rich black people haven't suffered from racism and should therefore be denied AA.

whites and asians are more likely to suffer from racism than blacks. deal with it.
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: BrerAnansi on August 07, 2006, 10:44:56 AM
  When my parents came here from India they had to deal with SO much racism on so many different levels for more than just the color of their skin (but also inability to speak english well, no money, their race, etc.)  They didn't expect a single thing to be given to them that they had not rightfully deserved and they worked their way up from making minimum wage to being millionaires.  my point of sharing this is not to be like "hey check my parents out", but rather to explain where i'm coming from.  only in america do so many people expecting something for doing NOTHING. 

If you disagree with me thats fine, but do me a favor and don't get all heated in your response.  I'm on this site to talk about getting in law school and hopefully to have a good conversation or two while I'm at it.  that's all. 

Tutti....why couldn't your parents be millionaires in India???...and I don't mean this in a go back to your country sort of way...I just would like you to elaborate because you may have inadvertently stumbled on to a point that needs to be illuminated...
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: BrerAnansi on August 07, 2006, 11:01:07 AM
You told me how they got here...but not how they came to be millionaires here...what I mainly want to get at is the reason why they couldn't accomplish that in India...
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: BrerAnansi on August 07, 2006, 11:29:05 AM
i told myself i wasn't going to get involved in any of the AA conversations, but I guess I've done that.  When my parents came here from India they had to deal with SO much racism on so many different levels for more than just the color of their skin (but also inability to speak english well, no money, their race, etc.)  They didn't expect a single thing to be given to them that they had not rightfully deserved and they worked their way up from making minimum wage to being millionaires.  my point of sharing this is not to be like "hey check my parents out", but rather to explain where i'm coming from.  only in america do so many people expecting something for doing NOTHING. 

If you disagree with me thats fine, but do me a favor and don't get all heated in your response.  I'm on this site to talk about getting in law school and hopefully to have a good conversation or two while I'm at it.  that's all. 

Well...your earlier post made it seem like your parents came from nothing and prevailed...and therefore other races should be measured by this metric and found to be deserving or not...but if they came from a place chock full of millionaires then their accomplishments are nothing to wonder at...they are to be expected...
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: misery on August 07, 2006, 11:18:30 PM

There's a real disconnect in the anti-AA logic, wherein this fiction of lazy, good for nothing gangbangers with zero intellectual ability are admitted to Harvard, or wherever. It's ridiculous. HLS URM-AA admits likely represent the absolute top of the range from their background -- they are the ones who have consistently challenged, outperformed. They weren't competing against YOU, with your carefully-zoned schools and "cracking the LSAT" courses; but in the pool from whence they came, they were the absolute superstars.



I'm sure you intended to make that generalization for satirical purposes.  Or that strawman too, for that matter.
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: misery on August 07, 2006, 11:20:46 PM
I think it is just to take all things into account when making decisions such as this. A single mother who raised a child while going to school with a 3.4/160 is more impressive than a typical 21-22 year old kid with a 3.6/162 to me. I don't think everything should be boiled down to a numbers game. :)

You're completely right, it shouldn't.  Unfortunately, AA is being applied so loosely that it pretty much is a numbers thing. 
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: Scholastically Challenged on August 07, 2006, 11:48:23 PM
only in america do so many people expecting something for doing NOTHING. 

And as you point out, this behavior rarely applies to immigrants or minorities. The real 'free ride' is given to upper class whites.

Trust me!

Do we have a Trust Fund Baby in our midst?

Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: Scholastically Challenged on August 08, 2006, 01:19:53 AM
only in america do so many people expecting something for doing NOTHING. 

And as you point out, this behavior rarely applies to immigrants or minorities. The real 'free ride' is given to upper class whites.

Trust me!



My grandfather needed better health care access (multiple bypass) and it was not available in India at the time.  My parents got basically automatical citzenship to the United Kingdom because at the time they were giving open citizenship to all people from prior british colonies.  When they got to England they hated it mostly because of the weather and so they applied to come to america.  When their turn came they decided to go there and make the best of it.  Thats basically it.  I'm sure I'm leaving some stuff out, but I think that's the main stuff. 


So your family treats nations as convenient fuelling stations to be exploited for health care, weather, etc? Have you no innate loyalty, you treacherous swine?

You admittedly come here to exploit the natural advantages (economy, health care) and then bemoan others taking advantage of government programs to assist THEM? I suppose you should be permitted to flit about the world and affiliate with whichever nation seems most convenient at the time, while urban minorities should suffer and 'make it on their own.' Charming.



Why not turn it around...if he/she has the scores of getting into a #12 what's so wrong with that?  Why not go to the 12 and not the 4 that you had no shot at if you were a non-urm. 


Stop for a minute.

Do you actually believe that 'lazy' URMs are being admitted to T14s? Do you not think they made just as much effort for their grades and scores -- perhaps more, indeed -- as you did?

There's a real disconnect in the anti-AA logic, wherein this fiction of lazy, good for nothing gangbangers with zero intellectual ability are admitted to Harvard, or wherever. It's ridiculous. HLS URM-AA admits likely represent the absolute top of the range from their background -- they are the ones who have consistently challenged, outperformed. They weren't competing against YOU, with your carefully-zoned schools and "cracking the LSAT" courses; but in the pool from whence they came, they were the absolute superstars.

And you begrudge them their admission? Why?

It's all relative. Apples to apples, boy.

Oh, and by the way: nice name, "tutti poo poo." Your reasoning is eponymous.

what a rude reply.  it's like i set something off inside of you that made you go crazy.  first of all my parents did not come from some land of millionaires, i was only pointing out that india is not full of 1 billion poor people and that believe it or not people do become successful over there as well.  at the time there was a partial strike going on in health care services because of low wages and my father wanted to ensure that my grandfather could survive his surgeries.  you said my parents came here to take for the " natural advantages (economy, health care) and then bemoan others taking advantage of government programs to assist THEM?"  I'm not sure what you are talking about.  They came here, lived in their car for 4 months and showered at the one friends house that they had, pretending that their own shower did not work (of course the friend knew the truth).  They had NO HANDOUTS, no GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS, they HAD NOTHING.  so how can you compare what they went through to AA in its current state?  That is insulting. 

i'd also like to point out that these are my opinions on AA, but that I am not someone that cries every time I hear of a URM acceptance.  Like I said in my earlier posts you have to overcome anything that is on front of you because it is quite honestly not that difficult.  I wasn't giving that line of thinking to just URMs, but to everyone.  And I use it myself.  I'll work hard and be happy wherever I go to school.  I'm not bitching about anything.  I was simply stating that I think AA has many flaws. 

Oh, just read some of Mr. Arkadins posts, before he deletes them. A very arrogant chap, who fantisies himself some figure out of a novel circa 1940. Not much real social experience, but his brain does work overtime. Thinks way too much, especially of himself. Just sit back and watch the little rats follow his tune. Its rather amusing.

Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: PIP on August 12, 2006, 03:56:59 PM
the problem with AA is that it helps ALLL sorts of blacks, hispanics, and native americans.  even the rich ones.  even the ones that went to my 30,000 a year private school for high school AND middle school.  even the ones who's parents went to harvard.  even the ones who have a trust fund the size of rhode island. 

thats the problem with AA.  it helps too many people that don't deserve help.

Agreed!
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: RUMike on August 12, 2006, 09:01:09 PM
The problem with AA, in addition to what's already been brought up, is that it doesn't take into account that even white people have experienced discrimination...for decades Jews were barred from colleges, law and med schools. There is plenty of discrimination against other whites- for instance, those of Italian descent like myself. How many Italian-American lawyers are there- or better yet, what percentage of Italian-Americans finish college and go onto grad school? Very few. Yet for some reason, we are not considered underrepresented. Muslims and Arabs face discrimination to this day- but are they considered URMs? No. By the way, the majority of those under the poverty line in America are WHITE. But because the afformentioned groups have not banded together and demanded to be paid back for the crap thrown in their face, they're still considered "undiverse" and not entitled to anything.
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: BrerAnansi on August 12, 2006, 10:39:53 PM
How many Italian-American lawyers are there-

Justices Scalito!

Lol...that's such a gimme...
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: RUMike on August 12, 2006, 11:06:28 PM
haha true but those are more the exception...Justice Thomas doesn't mean blacks are overrepresented...

I actually wish the "Scalitos" weren't Italian...they are giving us a bad rap
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: pikey on August 14, 2006, 06:47:21 AM
The problem with AA, in addition to what's already been brought up, is that it doesn't take into account that even white people have experienced discrimination...for decades Jews were barred from colleges, law and med schools. There is plenty of discrimination against other whites- for instance, those of Italian descent like myself. How many Italian-American lawyers are there- or better yet, what percentage of Italian-Americans finish college and go onto grad school? Very few. Yet for some reason, we are not considered underrepresented. Muslims and Arabs face discrimination to this day- but are they considered URMs? No. By the way, the majority of those under the poverty line in America are WHITE. But because the afformentioned groups have not banded together and demanded to be paid back for the crap thrown in their face, they're still considered "undiverse" and not entitled to anything.

That's because the majority of the people in America are still WHITE.  Use those critical thinking skills by looking at the percentages of each race/ethnicity who live under the poverty line.  It's a completely different story, isn't it?
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: pikey on August 14, 2006, 07:26:56 AM
Quote
That's because the majority of the people in America are still WHITE.  Use those critical thinking skills by looking at the percentages of each race/ethnicity who live under the poverty line.  It's a completely different story, isn't it?

i agree, but being white or asian and being under the poverty line doesn't mean you are any less poor just because of the fact that your overall race is doing better on average then some.  Averages and percentages doesn't mean *&^% to the guy who's struggling to make ends meet.  Makes no sense why AA should not help these people out.  It also makes no sense how it helps those that have clearly do not need help.  I'm not bitter about it, just think a couple changes should be made so it's more fair.  Isn't that was this is all about?  Making things fair.

Because if AA was solely economic based, those numerous poor white people previously mentioned would crowd out the poor urms and the end result would still be mostly white schools.
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: queencruella on August 14, 2006, 07:35:31 AM
Quote
That's because the majority of the people in America are still WHITE.  Use those critical thinking skills by looking at the percentages of each race/ethnicity who live under the poverty line.  It's a completely different story, isn't it?

i agree, but being white or asian and being under the poverty line doesn't mean you are any less poor just because of the fact that your overall race is doing better on average then some.  Averages and percentages doesn't mean sh*t to the guy who's struggling to make ends meet.  Makes no sense why AA should not help these people out.  It also makes no sense how it helps those that have clearly do not need help.  I'm not bitter about it, just think a couple changes should be made so it's more fair.  Isn't that was this is all about?  Making things fair.

Because if AA was solely economic based, those numerous poor white people previously mentioned would crowd out the poor urms and the end result would still be mostly white schools.

It's also extremely hard to use economics as a basis because there's so much you have to take into account- income, location, number of people in the family, and school attended. Where I'm from, some students from lower income areas can be bused to high-income schools, while many other students have no choice to go to their neighborhood schools that have very limited resources.
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: pikey on August 14, 2006, 08:23:24 AM
it doesn't have to be purely economic based i agree.  why not take the current URMs (black, hispanic, native american) and only give AA treatment to those that have 1) had financial hardship  or  2) extraordinary experiences in direct relation to the fact that you are a particular race.  I'm guessing that 1 and 2 will overlap many times, which is fine.   

Like I have said in my previous posts, I have no problem with AA existing, I just don't like it when it helps BOTH the poor black guy who's family had to work 4 jobs to put him through college AND the rich hispanic guy who went to private school for many years.  People say that the latter is very rare, and I'm sure that is true, but just in my experience going to private school I have seen so many people get helped by AA who didn't need the help.  Not only did they not need the help they laughed at the thought that they were getting help even though they did not ask for it. 

I know I haven't thought this out really well...just stating some random thoughts

But how do you define financial hardship?  Attending a private school does not mean that you did not have financial hardship.  My cousin attended an elite private school while her single mother worked long hours to support her and her brother.  She's since won a scholarship that covers her tuition and living expense for college.  Should she have not have aa if she decided to apply to law school.  My grandparents managed to send all three of their kids to boarding school and college on a gas station attendant and hotel maid's salaries.  It becomes subjective, because tax returns don't tell the whole story.

How do you define extraordinary experience for your race?  How would an adcomm define it?  Do they really know what is extraordinary for a black person.  Is there a 'standard' experience for a race.  This would require a group of outsiders (adcomms) to try and define or normalise a race in order to determine what is extraordinary.  Do you see how this is problematic?  Within a race there are a variety of 'typical' experiences.  In fact, this criteria is more likely to help the black kid from the burbs because that can be seen as an extraordinary experience for his race, being the only (or one of a few) black people in his school.  By this criteria, my friend who grew up in suburban FL with only 2 other black people in his school, who first experienced racism in his (mostly White) Methodist church would get more of a boost than the black kid from the 'ghetto', despite the fact that his parents were doctors.

What you fail to realise is that the purpose of AA is not just to help those who are poor or economically disadvantaged.  As with the example of my friend above, wealth does not protect you from discrimination.  Wealth does not ensure that people won't say stupid *&^% to you like, You're smart, unlike most black people.  Wealth will not necessarily protect you from being waaaaaay more likely to be labelled a 'problem' child than the kid who sits next to you and is exactly like you except for race.  In addition, wealth does not mean that you don't have diverse experiences to bring to the table.  Wealth does not make a person any less of a URM.  You still represent an underreresented race and can still help that race, if only by serving as a role model to other URMs.
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: Lerting on August 14, 2006, 01:03:44 PM
Quote
That's because the majority of the people in America are still WHITE.  Use those critical thinking skills by looking at the percentages of each race/ethnicity who live under the poverty line.  It's a completely different story, isn't it?

i agree, but being white or asian and being under the poverty line doesn't mean you are any less poor just because of the fact that your overall race is doing better on average then some.  Averages and percentages doesn't mean sh*t to the guy who's struggling to make ends meet.  Makes no sense why AA should not help these people out.  It also makes no sense how it helps those that have clearly do not need help.  I'm not bitter about it, just think a couple changes should be made so it's more fair.  Isn't that was this is all about?  Making things fair.

Because if AA was solely economic based, those numerous poor white people previously mentioned would crowd out the poor urms and the end result would still be mostly white schools.

why? you and all the others have been saying all along that economics explains urm's poor performance in school. now you're saying that even with this equalized, there is a difference. you need to get your story straight.
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: Lerting on August 14, 2006, 01:06:02 PM
it doesn't have to be purely economic based i agree.  why not take the current URMs (black, hispanic, native american) and only give AA treatment to those that have 1) had financial hardship  or  2) extraordinary experiences in direct relation to the fact that you are a particular race.  I'm guessing that 1 and 2 will overlap many times, which is fine.   

Like I have said in my previous posts, I have no problem with AA existing, I just don't like it when it helps BOTH the poor black guy who's family had to work 4 jobs to put him through college AND the rich hispanic guy who went to private school for many years.  People say that the latter is very rare, and I'm sure that is true, but just in my experience going to private school I have seen so many people get helped by AA who didn't need the help.  Not only did they not need the help they laughed at the thought that they were getting help even though they did not ask for it. 

I know I haven't thought this out really well...just stating some random thoughts

But how do you define financial hardship?  Attending a private school does not mean that you did not have financial hardship.  My cousin attended an elite private school while her single mother worked long hours to support her and her brother.  She's since won a scholarship that covers her tuition and living expense for college.  Should she have not have aa if she decided to apply to law school.  My grandparents managed to send all three of their kids to boarding school and college on a gas station attendant and hotel maid's salaries.  It becomes subjective, because tax returns don't tell the whole story.

How do you define extraordinary experience for your race?  How would an adcomm define it?  Do they really know what is extraordinary for a black person.  Is there a 'standard' experience for a race.  This would require a group of outsiders (adcomms) to try and define or normalise a race in order to determine what is extraordinary.  Do you see how this is problematic?  Within a race there are a variety of 'typical' experiences.  In fact, this criteria is more likely to help the black kid from the burbs because that can be seen as an extraordinary experience for his race, being the only (or one of a few) black people in his school.  By this criteria, my friend who grew up in suburban FL with only 2 other black people in his school, who first experienced racism in his (mostly White) Methodist church would get more of a boost than the black kid from the 'ghetto', despite the fact that his parents were doctors.

What you fail to realise is that the purpose of AA is not just to help those who are poor or economically disadvantaged.  As with the example of my friend above, wealth does not protect you from discrimination.  Wealth does not ensure that people won't say stupid sh*t to you like, You're smart, unlike most black people.  Wealth will not necessarily protect you from being waaaaaay more likely to be labelled a 'problem' child than the kid who sits next to you and is exactly like you except for race.  In addition, wealth does not mean that you don't have diverse experiences to bring to the table.  Wealth does not make a person any less of a URM.  You still represent an underreresented race and can still help that race, if only by serving as a role model to other URMs.

i know this may come as a shock, but blacks do not have a monopoly on bad experiences. someone whose parents die in a car accident is surely deserving of a boost then.
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: pikey on August 14, 2006, 01:07:00 PM
Quote
That's because the majority of the people in America are still WHITE.  Use those critical thinking skills by looking at the percentages of each race/ethnicity who live under the poverty line.  It's a completely different story, isn't it?

i agree, but being white or asian and being under the poverty line doesn't mean you are any less poor just because of the fact that your overall race is doing better on average then some.  Averages and percentages doesn't mean sh*t to the guy who's struggling to make ends meet.  Makes no sense why AA should not help these people out.  It also makes no sense how it helps those that have clearly do not need help.  I'm not bitter about it, just think a couple changes should be made so it's more fair.  Isn't that was this is all about?  Making things fair.

Because if AA was solely economic based, those numerous poor white people previously mentioned would crowd out the poor urms and the end result would still be mostly white schools.

why? you and all the others have been saying all along that economics explains urm's poor performance in school. now you're saying that even with this equalized, there is a difference. you need to get your story straight.

Actually I haven't said that once.  Don't put words into my mouth.
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: RUMike on August 14, 2006, 10:48:24 PM
I think what's most unfair is that the way schools decide what's "diverse" or not makes it seem like being black is the most diverse, being hispanic is somewhat diverse, and being white or asian means nothing. Just because you're white or asian doesn't mean you haven't suffered hardship or discrimination. My great-grandfather came to this country at 13 and worked in a coal mine to pay for the rest of his family to be able to come to America...I'm also the first person in my immediate family to go to college, nevermind law school. Ask any  Italian-American my grandfather's age and they will tell you the crap they had to take from the cops, getting beat up in the street just for being Italian in an Irish neighborhood. But none of that counts, since I have to check off the "white" box. Meanwhile, the black kids that I went to high school with, in upper-middle class liberal New Jersey, where they were treated fine and were as wealthy, if not wealthier than the white families in town, reaped the benefits of AA and got into better colleges than the other white students with better numbers. It's simply unfair.
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: Lerting on August 14, 2006, 11:25:00 PM
I think what's most unfair is that the way schools decide what's "diverse" or not makes it seem like being black is the most diverse, being hispanic is somewhat diverse, and being white or asian means nothing. Just because you're white or asian doesn't mean you haven't suffered hardship or discrimination. My great-grandfather came to this country at 13 and worked in a coal mine to pay for the rest of his family to be able to come to America...I'm also the first person in my immediate family to go to college, nevermind law school. Ask any  Italian-American my grandfather's age and they will tell you the crap they had to take from the cops, getting beat up in the street just for being Italian in an Irish neighborhood. But none of that counts, since I have to check off the "white" box. Meanwhile, the black kids that I went to high school with, in upper-middle class liberal New Jersey, where they were treated fine and were as wealthy, if not wealthier than the white families in town, reaped the benefits of AA and got into better colleges than the other white students with better numbers. It's simply unfair.

Life's not fair.  Oh no, I'm white and my numbers weren't strong enough to get me into Stanford!  Poor me, how will I ever manage at my TTT?

but some colored with bad numbers should get in anyway, yup.
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: Lerting on August 14, 2006, 11:26:44 PM
Quote
That's because the majority of the people in America are still WHITE.  Use those critical thinking skills by looking at the percentages of each race/ethnicity who live under the poverty line.  It's a completely different story, isn't it?

i agree, but being white or asian and being under the poverty line doesn't mean you are any less poor just because of the fact that your overall race is doing better on average then some.  Averages and percentages doesn't mean sh*t to the guy who's struggling to make ends meet.  Makes no sense why AA should not help these people out.  It also makes no sense how it helps those that have clearly do not need help.  I'm not bitter about it, just think a couple changes should be made so it's more fair.  Isn't that was this is all about?  Making things fair.

Because if AA was solely economic based, those numerous poor white people previously mentioned would crowd out the poor urms and the end result would still be mostly white schools.

why? you and all the others have been saying all along that economics explains urm's poor performance in school. now you're saying that even with this equalized, there is a difference. you need to get your story straight.

Actually I haven't said that once.  Don't put words into my mouth.

so you admit that as a whole you guys aren't smart enough to compete with the big boys. you'll always need affirmative action, just like a midget will always need a weapon to beat a 6'4 bball player.
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: pikey on August 15, 2006, 06:28:50 AM
Quote
That's because the majority of the people in America are still WHITE.  Use those critical thinking skills by looking at the percentages of each race/ethnicity who live under the poverty line.  It's a completely different story, isn't it?

i agree, but being white or asian and being under the poverty line doesn't mean you are any less poor just because of the fact that your overall race is doing better on average then some.  Averages and percentages doesn't mean sh*t to the guy who's struggling to make ends meet.  Makes no sense why AA should not help these people out.  It also makes no sense how it helps those that have clearly do not need help.  I'm not bitter about it, just think a couple changes should be made so it's more fair.  Isn't that was this is all about?  Making things fair.

Because if AA was solely economic based, those numerous poor white people previously mentioned would crowd out the poor urms and the end result would still be mostly white schools.

why? you and all the others have been saying all along that economics explains urm's poor performance in school. now you're saying that even with this equalized, there is a difference. you need to get your story straight.

Actually I haven't said that once.  Don't put words into my mouth.

so you admit that as a whole you guys aren't smart enough to compete with the big boys. you'll always need affirmative action, just like a midget will always need a weapon to beat a 6'4 bball player.

Nope, didn't say that either.  There you go again with the assumptions.  You might wanna work on that, it'll get you into trouble in a legal career, if that's your intention.
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: pikey on August 15, 2006, 06:32:53 AM
I think what's most unfair is that the way schools decide what's "diverse" or not makes it seem like being black is the most diverse, being hispanic is somewhat diverse, and being white or asian means nothing. Just because you're white or asian doesn't mean you haven't suffered hardship or discrimination. My great-grandfather came to this country at 13 and worked in a coal mine to pay for the rest of his family to be able to come to America...I'm also the first person in my immediate family to go to college, nevermind law school. Ask any  Italian-American my grandfather's age and they will tell you the crap they had to take from the cops, getting beat up in the street just for being Italian in an Irish neighborhood. But none of that counts, since I have to check off the "white" box. Meanwhile, the black kids that I went to high school with, in upper-middle class liberal New Jersey, where they were treated fine and were as wealthy, if not wealthier than the white families in town, reaped the benefits of AA and got into better colleges than the other white students with better numbers. It's simply unfair.

AA is seperate from diversity.  That's the whole purpose of the diversity statement.  If admissions committees didn't use it at some point in admissions decisions, they wouldn't ask for it and would just ask you to check a box.  They really don't want more to read.  If you feel that you can provide a diverse perspective, it's your responsibility to share how.
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: BrerAnansi on August 15, 2006, 07:08:49 AM
I think what's most unfair is that the way schools decide what's "diverse" or not makes it seem like being black is the most diverse, being hispanic is somewhat diverse, and being white or asian means nothing. Just because you're white or asian doesn't mean you haven't suffered hardship or discrimination. My great-grandfather came to this country at 13 and worked in a coal mine to pay for the rest of his family to be able to come to America...I'm also the first person in my immediate family to go to college, nevermind law school. Ask any  Italian-American my grandfather's age and they will tell you the crap they had to take from the cops, getting beat up in the street just for being Italian in an Irish neighborhood. But none of that counts, since I have to check off the "white" box. Meanwhile, the black kids that I went to high school with, in upper-middle class liberal New Jersey, where they were treated fine and were as wealthy, if not wealthier than the white families in town, reaped the benefits of AA and got into better colleges than the other white students with better numbers. It's simply unfair.

Life's not fair.  Oh no, I'm white and my numbers weren't strong enough to get me into Stanford!  Poor me, how will I ever manage at my TTT?

but some colored with bad numbers should get in anyway, yup.

Lerting you jumped the shark as flame when you refered to Black people as "colored"...I mean where do you go from there??
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: FossilJ on August 17, 2006, 03:17:39 PM
Your parents were dirt poor and lived out of a car while working minimum wage jobs for years or you went to a 30k a year private school. Which is it?


Is it just me, or does this question win "Daft Inquiry of the Year"? 
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: FossilJ on August 17, 2006, 03:35:06 PM
It's funny, Tutti.  Your family situation closely parallels that of someone who is very close to me, yet you have different perspectives on AA.
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: FossilJ on August 17, 2006, 04:09:40 PM
that is interesting.  i wonder what their reasons are...never makes sense to me when someone overcomes adversity and then when they look back upon it they think that something different would have been better.  overcoming obstacles is exactly what makes you who you are.

but i don't presume to know your close friend, so no disrespect. 

I don't understand how you wouldn't think that something different would've been better.  Not having things given to you on a silver platter, mind you, but an easier route.  That's why parents sacrifice so much to give their kids what they never had.

I also have problems with the phrase "overcoming obstacles makes you who you are".  This is simply not true -- obstacles are only a part of the human dynamic.  There are a myriad factors that played into me becoming who I am, and while overcoming obstacles was a part of that, I'm not about to define myself by my struggles.  Not that I have an ethical qualm with it, but that seems to me an indirect disrespect to people with real struggles who never managed to overcome them through no fault of their own -- you can pick an example, but I'm thinking here of slaves, in particular.

All that said, my friend's views are similar to yours, but differ in some key aspects.  While she's loathe to let people get a leg up for free if they don't deserve it (just like you), she also recognizes that there are definite gaps of minority representation in particular professions, and that AA is the best way to solve this problem (although she'd prefer a better way).  We haven't discussed it in too much depth, so that's about all I can really provide with any certainty. 

I'm just wondering what your counter to that second part of the argument would be.

Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: pikey on August 17, 2006, 04:17:00 PM
that is interesting.  i wonder what their reasons are...never makes sense to me when someone overcomes adversity and then when they look back upon it they think that something different would have been better.  overcoming obstacles is exactly what makes you who you are.

but i don't presume to know your close friend, so no disrespect. 

I don't understand how you wouldn't think that something different would've been better.  Not having things given to you on a silver platter, mind you, but an easier route.  That's why parents sacrifice so much to give their kids what they never had.

I also have problems with the phrase "overcoming obstacles makes you who you are".  This is simply not true -- obstacles are only a part of the human dynamic.  There are a myriad factors that played into me becoming who I am, and while overcoming obstacles was a part of that, I'm not about to define myself by my struggles.  Not that I have an ethical qualm with it, but that seems to me an indirect disrespect to people with real struggles who never managed to overcome them through no fault of their own -- you can pick an example, but I'm thinking here of slaves, in particular.

All that said, my friend's views are similar to yours, but differ in some key aspects.  While she's loathe to let people get a leg up for free if they don't deserve it (just like you), she also recognizes that there are definite gaps of minority representation in particular professions, and that AA is the best way to solve this problem (although she'd prefer a better way).  We haven't discussed it in too much depth, so that's about all I can really provide with any certainty. 

I'm just wondering what your counter to that second part of the argument would be.



I completely agree with the bolded section.  Tuttipoopoo, I don't think you intend it, but some of your posts come across as very self-righteous and smug.  My parents made it, why can't you minorities do the same. You're weak if you need the crutch of AA. This is what it sometimes sounds like you are saying.

You're quite welcome to your own opinions on AA, but it's somewhat patronising and paternalistic to imply that you oppose it for the benefit of those poor minorities.  Jsia.
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: FossilJ on August 17, 2006, 05:01:59 PM
Your parents were dirt poor and lived out of a car while working minimum wage jobs for years or you went to a 30k a year private school. Which is it?


Is it just me, or does this question win "Daft Inquiry of the Year"? 


Daft as it may seem the situation just seems ingenuine. In my mind I had the image of an immigrant couple who would shortly have children working minimum wage. No education and no real prospects. If they did make it to be able to afford 30k a year private tuition it is a rarity.

I somewhat in the back of my mind feel as if the real story is they lived in a van touring the US on their summer off of college. The two stories are quite different in that case. :)

It is not an insult and should not be taken as such. It just feels so impossible and rare that it is a great accomplishment.


This approach just seems ignorant to me.

I think the whole point of the poster relaying the story was to illustrate its unique and extraordinary nature to exaggerate a pertinent claim for clarity.

I don't even know why you'd claim the situation to be ingenuine.  I've worked with so many immigrants who were in various stages of a similar struggle.  Some of them had PhDs and were doing the same $12 an hour job that I was doing (on top of two other jobs) to feed their families.  And yet these same people never tired in looking for lucrative solutions -- a collective trait was the ability to save money on meager wages for future business opportunities.

In fact, my close friend's family was in the exact same situation.  Her father worked two jobs during the day and took courses at night.  Then, with that minimal education, he started a business and spent all day networking and overseeing this fledgling venture only to spend his nights working those same crappy jobs to feed his family. 

Today, he's a multi-millionaire.  He owns four hotels.  My friend got the best of both worlds.  She learned the importance of hard work and the crucial lesson that nothing should ever be taken for granted, but she's also receiving the benefits of a high quality, expensive education, and, starting soon, graduate school.  This is something her own father would never have been able to afford.

I know that this sort of success story needs at least a good sprinkling of luck, but it isn't as rare as you think it is. 
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: FossilJ on August 17, 2006, 05:09:15 PM
 :D :D :D

Not that I'm glorifying the guy at all.  He's an ass.  But his story sure as hell is real, as is Tutti's, I'm sure.
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: FossilJ on August 17, 2006, 06:51:33 PM
Minority =/= race.

Further reply pending.  I'm in a bit of a rush.
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: BrerAnansi on August 17, 2006, 09:35:10 PM
Quote

I also have problems with the phrase "overcoming obstacles makes you who you are".  This is simply not true -- obstacles are only a part of the human dynamic.  There are a myriad factors that played into me becoming who I am, and while overcoming obstacles was a part of that, I'm not about to define myself by my struggles.  Not that I have an ethical qualm with it, but that seems to me an indirect disrespect to people with real struggles who never managed to overcome them through no fault of their own -- you can pick an example, but I'm thinking here of slaves, in particular.

All that said, my friend's views are similar to yours, but differ in some key aspects.  While she's loathe to let people get a leg up for free if they don't deserve it (just like you), she also recognizes that there are definite gaps of minority representation in particular professions, and that AA is the best way to solve this problem (although she'd prefer a better way).  We haven't discussed it in too much depth, so that's about all I can really provide with any certainty. 

I'm just wondering what your counter to that second part of the argument would be.

not sure how what im saying is now being equated to indirectly disrespecting slaves...not even really sure how to answer that.  comparing slavery to AA is ridiculous.  I know real struggles exist/existed that are impossible to overcome but that's not what we're talking about AT ALL.  We're talking about people who are in college applying to law school and how affirmitative action relates to that.  That's all I'm going to say about that.  I'm not mad or anything, but this is the exact reason why i don't get involved in these conversations usually.  People turn it into something so much bigger.

Also I understand certain minorities are not well represented in certain professions but I don't think the application process should be altered to favor having more of those minorities in the field.  I know to some of you that sounds rude and all these other things, but you have to understand that that is my opinion and it is not the sole determination of what kind of person I am.  It doesn't make me a bad person.  There are plenty of professions where minorities are not well represented in, but I see no one doing anything about it except for particular cases such as law school / med school acceptances. 

I know a good chunk of people will take that last paragraph as I that I am racist or that I don't want to help other people who have not been as fortunate or all these other different things but that is simply not the case.  It makes sense to me to help people who grew up in poverty for years on end, or who grew up in very tough situations (moving around from house to house in foster care, etc.) and if people want to give them a little advantage that's fine with me.  When race gets added to the mix that is what bothers me.  Race should not be taken into consideration at all.  I know this will probably generate a lot of angry/rude replies, but that's alright.  I know people feel strongly about this subject, and if that means you have to be rude in your reply that's your choice. 

Whether you agree with it or not, there is good reason to want to increase representation of minorities in those particular industries.

1.  If you were to study the demographics of prisons in America, you'd see (percentage-wise if not empirically) that Black males in particular flow into the system at an alarming rate and that their sentences for equitable crimes tend to be harsher than most.

2. In the same way as a potential law student you don't lay awake at night dreaming of making a TV commercial about prosecuting slip and fall injuries, most future doctors don't dream of serving in rough and tumble neigborhoods where the facilities leave much to be desired.

I think at the end of the day in all this discourse we forget the practical issues at play.  Affirmative Action did not come about in a vacuum.  If the larger community was doing a great job of advancing the minority community there would be no issue, but that's not the way it is, is it?  It's great that we're all able to come on here and discuss these issues in a mostly analytical manner, but it is part of the human condition that we identify with and feel responsible for those who come from a similar background and have had the same experiences as we had... and it just so happens that in America some of those experiences are unique to minorities. (you can't blame a harried public defender for thinking "this kid will never learn" when his background is starkly different from his client, but you can make sure that there are more public defenders who can think "I remember what it was like to be this age and to have these particular pressures put on me")
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: Paper Chaser on August 27, 2006, 10:11:31 PM
Bottom line is that none of you will ever agree, probably even partially because you cannot walk in the other peron's shoes...and judging from your attitudes and backgrounds, you would not want to. It is easy to be lazy in a country of lazy asses the same way it is easy to be hungry for wealth and power when you come from a place where you may be killed for it...hmmm...i forget if i am talking about india or the u.s., but either way...you are an outright fool to speak on a life you have not lived or an ethnic group that you do not belong to...whether you are a AA fanactic or part of the system blocking progress it is best to go live in your own little drem land world of what you think is right according to your experiences because thats what the majority of american fools do anyways.
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: Paper Chaser on August 28, 2006, 02:22:10 AM
its funny how your people in India are so backwards in some of their own practices such as still practicing arranged marriages, the various factions of Islam, and the killing because someone believes in the Vedas or another reads the Quran yet you think that everyone here in America is supposed to have their sh*t together...what a f-ing sellout...then again people like you are never sellouts because you were never in in the first place...your parents may have struggled, but you are the epitome of what money and a little supposed class does to minorities in America. Kids like you always disgust me, how you live in this f-ing vacuum of a world, i would love to see your ass come from my neighborhood and still have that same uppity ass mentality. Dont worry about another post, I would not rather waste another conversation with you.
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: H4CS on August 28, 2006, 04:00:42 PM
i'd like to add that you are a racist.  what you said about india is no different than if someone were to say that black people are lazy, 9/10 mexicans mow lawns, white people marry their cousins, asians can't drive well, women are meant to cook and clean, etc.  i love it how this board would get outraged at racism towards blacks or other URMs, but this guy has just spoken racist manner towards me and "my people" yet in the over hundred viwes since he has commented no one has said anything. 

You know, without defending Paper Chaser, it's quite possible to criticize the various problems of another country without being a racist and it is in no way comprable to accusing a race of people of having certain characteristics.  India has many unique problems, let's just start with acid attacks, that it is not doing enough to address.  Only when you say that Indians love throwing acid at women do you start to sound racist.  And yeah, Paper Chaser is a racist, but not for the reason you gave. 
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: Paper Chaser on September 04, 2006, 06:56:42 PM
I am Muslim myself, actually have Indian friends (not Native American, actually from India) who agree with me, have read at least some of the Bhavagita, and have tolerated your nonsense about AA for almost the entire thread. I may be racist, but that would be shocking to my white friends as well as myself. Perhaps if you crawled from under that rock you have been living under for the past twenty years, it might occur to you that everyone has not had your financial advantages in life. If it was so easy for people to lift themselves out of the ghetto then why isn't everyone living swell somewhere in the rich side of town? America, much like the rest of the world, thrives off the misfortunes of the poor, and for you to sit here talking about what YOUR PARENTS went through and not you, shows no appreciation for the people who must pave their own walks in life. If law schools can appreciate that there is a major discrepancy in ratio of whites to non-whites in law schools or all secondary levels of education, who are you to criticize? You know you sound like Clarence Thomas, but maybe that is a compliment to you.
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: Paper Chaser on September 05, 2006, 07:22:28 AM
LOL...I guess so.
Title: Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
Post by: FossilJ on September 06, 2006, 04:40:26 AM
I am Muslim myself, actually have Indian friends (not Native American, actually from India) who agree with me, have read at least some of the Bhavagita, and have tolerated your nonsense about AA for almost the entire thread. I may be racist, but that would be shocking to my white friends as well as myself. Perhaps if you crawled from under that rock you have been living under for the past twenty years, it might occur to you that everyone has not had your financial advantages in life. If it was so easy for people to lift themselves out of the ghetto then why isn't everyone living swell somewhere in the rich side of town? America, much like the rest of the world, thrives off the misfortunes of the poor, and for you to sit here talking about what YOUR PARENTS went through and not you, shows no appreciation for the people who must pave their own walks in life. If law schools can appreciate that there is a major discrepancy in ratio of whites to non-whites in law schools or all secondary levels of education, who are you to criticize? You know you sound like Clarence Thomas, but maybe that is a compliment to you.

Dude, to be fair, we all called her out on it, and she's qualified most of her statements.  In fact, she's made many of the concessions for which you so passionately argue in this post.

You should read the thread.