Law School Discussion

Specific Groups => Minority and Non-Traditional Law Students => Topic started by: ->Soon on August 04, 2006, 07:39:41 AM

Title: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: ->Soon on August 04, 2006, 07:39:41 AM
WORKPLACE
Minority women held back in private law firmsBY ANDREW HARRIS
Bloomberg News
Eighty-one percent of minority women quit private law firms within five years because they get shunted into dead-end jobs and aren't welcomed the way other new employees are, according to an American Bar Association report.

Black, Asian, Latino and American Indian women routinely miss out on the best law firm assignments and have the toughest time advancing their legal careers, says the ABA's 141-page report, ``Visible Invisibility, Women of Color in Law Firms.''

Minority women ''often became stuck in dead-end assignments so that as third and fourth-year associates, their experience lagged behind their white male counterparts limiting their advancement potential and career trajectories,'' the report says.

The study, published Thursday, urges firms to enforce existing anti-discrimination and anti-harassment policies, and do more to integrate minority women into firms' professional and social fabric.

''What we see is this intersectionality of the effect of race and the effect of gender,'' said attorney and sociologist Arin Reeves, who co-chaired the ABA Commission on Women in the Profession study.

Michelle Schultz, 34, an Asian-American partner in the Los Angeles office of Chicago's Kirkland & Ellis said she was not surprised by the findings.

''It's not just law firms but the profession in general,'' Schultz said.

Washington partner Walter Lohmann co-chairs Kirkland's diversity committee. ''Female lawyers of color are in a doubly challenging situation and have needs to be addressed,'' he said.

The 1,100-lawyer firm has created both a diversity committee and several subcommittees addressing specific groups including women, minorities and gays, Lohmann said. Forty of Kirkland's 491 partners are minorities, 11 of those minority partners are women.

The ABA's Reeves -- an ethnic Indian -- quit the practice of law to open a diversity consulting firm, the Chicago-based Athens Group, which counsels large law firms. Reeves said she is selective about her clients, focusing efforts on those firms that want ``a real change.''

''There are people who want a diversity initiative and people who want diversity,'' she said.
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: ->Soon on August 08, 2006, 05:58:22 AM
more on this.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060807/ap_on_re_us/minority_women_lawyers;_ylt=AuSXv3bahvWIvkyIVYReUqqs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: h2xblive on August 08, 2006, 10:18:33 AM
What's your opinion about all of this, blue?  Any proposals to improve the situation?
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: Einstein on August 08, 2006, 10:31:07 AM
What's your opinion about all of this, blue?  Any proposals to improve the situation?
I don't know if this is a particularly good question to be asking Blue.. He might say something along the lines of "they just need to open their legs wider" 


I am suprised that there isn't some sort of AA type organizations set up to help combat this type of discrimination.

Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: ->Soon on August 08, 2006, 11:00:31 AM
What's your opinion about all of this, blue?  Any proposals to improve the situation?

i doubt i will ever be a hirerer, so it doesnt matter to much.

but im always pro women!
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: h2xblive on August 08, 2006, 11:06:04 AM
What's your opinion about all of this, blue?  Any proposals to improve the situation?

i doubt i will ever be a hirerer, so it doesnt matter to much.

but im always pro women!

How ironic would that be if you went into labor law?
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: JES on August 08, 2006, 11:07:06 AM
Right, what law firm isn't looking for ways to increase minorities at all levels of the firm these days? The results of this 'study' are partially a byproduct af AA in law school admissions accepting lesser qualified applicants, and then those applicants being hired upon graduation just because they went to a top school and are a female minority. And it is just plain hard for anyone to move up at a law firm and get good assignments, not just minority women. How many leave to have children? How many leave on their own accord?    
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: h2xblive on August 08, 2006, 11:07:28 AM
What's your opinion about all of this, blue?  Any proposals to improve the situation?
I don't know if this is a particularly good question to be asking Blue.. He might say something along the lines of "they just need to open their legs wider"  

I am suprised that there isn't some sort of AA type organizations set up to help combat this type of discrimination.


I know he can say some obnoxious things, but I would think he can tone it down in a context such as this.  I assume he has some serious thoughts on this topic, given he's brought it up.
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: h2xblive on August 08, 2006, 11:09:28 AM
Right, what law firm isn't looking for ways to increase minorities at all levels of the firm these days? The results of this 'study' are partially a byproduct af AA in law school admissions accepting lesser qualified applicants, and then those applicants being hired upon graduation just because they went to a top school and are a female minority. And it is just plain hard for anyone to move up at a law firm and get good assignments, not just minority women. How many leave to have children? How many leave on their own accord?    

That's true, but that doesn't justify further increasing the difficulty for these female lawyers at a chance for advancement
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: ->Soon on August 08, 2006, 11:10:32 AM
What's your opinion about all of this, blue?  Any proposals to improve the situation?

i doubt i will ever be a hirerer, so it doesnt matter to much.

but im always pro women!

How ironic would that be if you went into labor law?

Def something ive considered.

and what people dont seem to realize is, there are only so many top positions.  and the people in them dont give them up often.

so, it will prob take a few generations b4 you start seeing more women in higher positions of power.
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: mantis on August 08, 2006, 11:14:12 AM
Right, what law firm isn't looking for ways to increase minorities at all levels of the firm these days? The results of this 'study' are partially a byproduct af AA in law school admissions accepting lesser qualified applicants, and then those applicants being hired upon graduation just because they went to a top school and are a female minority. And it is just plain hard for anyone to move up at a law firm and get good assignments, not just minority women. How many leave to have children? How many leave on their own accord?    

That's true, but that doesn't justify further increasing the difficulty for these female lawyers at a chance for advancement

Not only that, but some of the other things going on at those firms are things that are so blatantly racist I would think "leaving on their own accord" would be a little tainted.  How easy would it really be to stay if one of the partners at your firm left a message on your voice mail "speaking gibberish, trying to sound like an Asian speaker."  I got that kind of phone call from drunken frat boys when I was in college.  I certainly wouldn't expect to have to deal with it from a colleague in an educated profession.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5613964
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: h2xblive on August 08, 2006, 11:16:00 AM
Right, what law firm isn't looking for ways to increase minorities at all levels of the firm these days? The results of this 'study' are partially a byproduct af AA in law school admissions accepting lesser qualified applicants, and then those applicants being hired upon graduation just because they went to a top school and are a female minority. And it is just plain hard for anyone to move up at a law firm and get good assignments, not just minority women. How many leave to have children? How many leave on their own accord?    

That's true, but that doesn't justify further increasing the difficulty for these female lawyers at a chance for advancement

Not only that, but some of the other things going on at those firms are things that are so blatantly racist I would think "leaving on their own accord" would be a little tainted.  How easy would it really be to stay if one of the partners at your firm left a message on your voice mail "speaking gibberish, trying to sound like an Asian speaker."  I got that kind of phone call from drunken frat boys when I was in college.  I certainly wouldn't expect to have to deal with it from a colleague in an educated profession.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5613964


Where did you go to school?
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: h2xblive on August 08, 2006, 11:17:54 AM
What's your opinion about all of this, blue?  Any proposals to improve the situation?

i doubt i will ever be a hirerer, so it doesnt matter to much.

but im always pro women!

How ironic would that be if you went into labor law?

Def something ive considered.

and what people dont seem to realize is, there are only so many top positions.  and the people in them dont give them up often.

so, it will prob take a few generations b4 you start seeing more women in higher positions of power.

That's not the point here, blue.  As long as everyone in the law firm is given an equal chance at a promotion, networking, getting clients, etc. this whole situations wouldn't be an issue.
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: ->Soon on August 08, 2006, 11:19:46 AM
im starting to think im really odd, cause i just dont see the need to be racist...

after all, as a buniess man, you should see people as either green or not.

can they make me $$$, or no.
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: ->Soon on August 08, 2006, 11:20:29 AM
What's your opinion about all of this, blue?  Any proposals to improve the situation?

i doubt i will ever be a hirerer, so it doesnt matter to much.

but im always pro women!

How ironic would that be if you went into labor law?

Def something ive considered.

and what people dont seem to realize is, there are only so many top positions.  and the people in them dont give them up often.

so, it will prob take a few generations b4 you start seeing more women in higher positions of power.

That's not the point here, blue.  As long as everyone in the law firm is given an equal chance at a promotion, networking, getting clients, etc. this whole situations wouldn't be an issue.

i doubt its ever that ez.  nepotism alone would prob take up most of the partner positions...
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: ->Soon on August 08, 2006, 11:22:41 AM
and for those about to hassle me, if i ever had a firm of my own, id ONLY hire female lawyers  ;D


hubba hubba
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: mantis on August 09, 2006, 06:53:03 AM
.
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: h2xblive on August 09, 2006, 07:01:28 AM
It just surprises me that those types of actions, not matter how infrequent, still go on at that level.
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: mantis on August 09, 2006, 08:03:53 AM
Believe me, it surprised me, too.  I still vividly remember getting off the phone and almost laughing in disbelief.  Ultimately I decided this is what I get for having the last funny-lookin' name in the directory.  I was a crime of opportunity more than anything else I think.  ;)  Wished I had caller ID so I could have called them back (and the balls to do so...).  Now that would have been interesting.
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: ->Soon on August 09, 2006, 08:18:03 AM
Believe me, it surprised me, too.  I still vividly remember getting off the phone and almost laughing in disbelief.  Ultimately I decided this is what I get for having the last funny-lookin' name in the directory.  I was a crime of opportunity more than anything else I think.  ;)  Wished I had caller ID so I could have called them back (and the balls to do so...).  Now that would have been interesting.

umm, if your a girl, would you EVER have the balls to do so?  ;D

Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: mantis on August 09, 2006, 09:03:07 AM
Believe me, it surprised me, too.  I still vividly remember getting off the phone and almost laughing in disbelief.  Ultimately I decided this is what I get for having the last funny-lookin' name in the directory.  I was a crime of opportunity more than anything else I think.  ;)  Wished I had caller ID so I could have called them back (and the balls to do so...).  Now that would have been interesting.

umm, if your a girl, would you EVER have the balls to do so?  ;D



Awww.. you even used my favorite grammatical error!  Your = Possessive.  You're = You Are.  They mean two different things.  Really!
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: ->Soon on August 09, 2006, 09:05:42 AM
Believe me, it surprised me, too.  I still vividly remember getting off the phone and almost laughing in disbelief.  Ultimately I decided this is what I get for having the last funny-lookin' name in the directory.  I was a crime of opportunity more than anything else I think.  ;)  Wished I had caller ID so I could have called them back (and the balls to do so...).  Now that would have been interesting.

umm, if your a girl, would you EVER have the balls to do so?  ;D



Awww.. you even used my favorite grammatical error!  Your = Possessive.  You're = You Are.  They mean two different things.  Really!

alot of people mention that, but your going to have a hard time convincing me that it matters....
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: h2xblive on August 09, 2006, 09:14:13 AM
Believe me, it surprised me, too.  I still vividly remember getting off the phone and almost laughing in disbelief.  Ultimately I decided this is what I get for having the last funny-lookin' name in the directory.  I was a crime of opportunity more than anything else I think.  ;)  Wished I had caller ID so I could have called them back (and the balls to do so...).  Now that would have been interesting.

umm, if your a girl, would you EVER have the balls to do so?  ;D



Awww.. you even used my favorite grammatical error!  Your = Possessive.  You're = You Are.  They mean two different things.  Really!

alot of people mention that, but your going to have a hard time convincing me that it matters....

Are you sure you want to practice law?
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: ->Soon on August 09, 2006, 09:15:50 AM
Believe me, it surprised me, too.  I still vividly remember getting off the phone and almost laughing in disbelief.  Ultimately I decided this is what I get for having the last funny-lookin' name in the directory.  I was a crime of opportunity more than anything else I think.  ;)  Wished I had caller ID so I could have called them back (and the balls to do so...).  Now that would have been interesting.

umm, if your a girl, would you EVER have the balls to do so?  ;D



Awww.. you even used my favorite grammatical error!  Your = Possessive.  You're = You Are.  They mean two different things.  Really!

alot of people mention that, but your going to have a hard time convincing me that it matters....

Are you sure you want to practice law?

i can spell correctly when needed.  here, it is not.
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: h2xblive on August 09, 2006, 09:19:13 AM
Believe me, it surprised me, too.  I still vividly remember getting off the phone and almost laughing in disbelief.  Ultimately I decided this is what I get for having the last funny-lookin' name in the directory.  I was a crime of opportunity more than anything else I think.  ;)  Wished I had caller ID so I could have called them back (and the balls to do so...).  Now that would have been interesting.

umm, if your a girl, would you EVER have the balls to do so?  ;D



Awww.. you even used my favorite grammatical error!  Your = Possessive.  You're = You Are.  They mean two different things.  Really!

alot of people mention that, but your going to have a hard time convincing me that it matters....

Are you sure you want to practice law?

i can spell correctly when needed.  here, it is not.

It's alot easier to spell and write correctly all the time, rather than "turning it on" when necessary.  Also, you never know who's reading and watching; wouldn't hurt to maintain "appearances," don't you think?  But whatever, it's your life/career.
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: mirror on August 09, 2006, 09:22:42 AM
Maybe they arent 'screwed' but rather finally getting equal treatment.  Life's tough when you are measured by a bottom line and dont get bonus points for not being white.  Its absurd to think firms are trying to 'screw' minorities.  They care about making money.  
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: Keeshi on August 09, 2006, 09:28:10 AM
Maybe they arent 'screwed' but rather finally getting equal treatment.  Life's tough when you are measured by a bottom line and dont get bonus points for not being white.  Its absurd to think firms are trying to 'screw' minorities.  They care about making money.  

And when they're attempting to make money, they're not including women and minorities! It's kind of hard to break the "concrete ceiling"
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: obamacon on August 09, 2006, 09:36:45 AM
A few thoughts on the NPR story and the study in general:

Quotes from the NPR story:

Quote
“You have to have an incredibly tough skin... I had people make comments like, 'Oh, you're Indian. Where's your tomahawk? Are you going to scalp me?' Or, 'Can I call you Pocahontas?'… When I was called 'chief' and brought it to people's attention, I was told, 'Oh, you're spoiling [our work] environment here.' So I had to leave."

Would you think the same thing if these were an Irish, French, or German jokes? Personally, while this could get annoying if it was an everyday occurrence, I have no problem with people making fun of my obviously French appearance, taste, and snobbish view of those who don’t share my preferences.

Quote
"They gave me a document in Korean and said, 'Can you read this?' And I said, 'This is Korean. I'm Chinese.' And they couldn't understand why I couldn't read it."

If this had been a Russian male handed a document in another language using the Cyrillic alphabet or a Frenchman given a document in Haitian Creole you’d probably have the same situation without any charges of racial insensitivity.

Quote
"Most of the white associates [at my firm] went to state schools, but all the minority associates were from the top ten law schools. If you’re not from a top ten law school and you’re a minority candidate, you’re not on the same playing field as a white applicant from any law school."

Perhaps minority candidates tend to graduate with a much lower rank in the class (from what I’ve read they do) and thus, to find a similar candidate for a top 10% white grad from a school ranked in the 40s you have to get a T14 minority candidate in the bottom 30% of the class.

Quote
“I felt like an exotic animal. I was always asked to attend functions and award ceremonies, speak to law students of color and pose for advertising publications. However, I never had contact with partners in power other than at these events. Law firms would do well to examine whether their associates of color are given real opportunities to interact with the power structure of the firm."

You mean that a law firm would use minority lawyers to talk to possible minority candidates or pose for advertising meant to show that the firm has minorities working for it? For shame. As for the rest of it, there are lots of firms out there where partner access is limited or nonexistent, so while this could be a racial issue, it could also be one of the unfortunate effects of working for a lawyer controlled enterprise.

As for the study itself, it was based on this:

Quote
“Nine hundred and twenty attorneys returned a completed questionnaire for the American Bar Association. Of these, 632 were minority women; 132 were minority men; 194 were white women; and 157 were white men.”

That isn’t exactly a recipe for getting a good view of what's actually going on now is it?
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: ->Soon on August 09, 2006, 09:38:50 AM
related

An uphill battle for working womenWomen are struggling to make ends meet and are concerned about the prospects for young people entering the workforce, a new survey has found.
BY CINDY KRISCHER GOODMAN
cgoodman@MiamiHerald.com

Basic economic issues top the list of what working women are worried about, according to a survey released Monday by the AFL-CIO.

The rising cost of healthcare, pay not keeping up with the cost of living and not having retirement benefits are issues of high concern to about 23,500 working women who participated in the online survey by the federation of unions.

Working women also are concerned about the next generation of workers. More than eight in 10 younger workers -- women under 30 years of age -- said they were more worried and concerned than confident about the future of young people going into the workforce.

''Working women are worried that the younger generation won't get jobs that can pay the bills or have basic benefits. Their prospects are considered dim,'' said Karen Nussbaum, executive director of Working America, the AFL-CIO affiliate for workers who don't have unions at their jobs.

Nussbaum said the survey results that most surprised her were those addressing equality in the workplace. Working women still feel the workplace is a ''man's world'' and indicate they are treated as ''second class'' on the job. More than half (57 percent) feel they do not receive equal pay for equal work.

At the same time, pay is what drives most women to work, the survey shows.

Despite recent publicity on women ''opting out'' of the workforce, women who participated in the survey said they work to pay bills and provide healthcare for their families. Even those who wanted to exit the paid labor force because of family responsibilities said they were prohibited because of the rising costs of living and healthcare. Only a minority of women have access to paid family medical leave or control over their work hours.

The survey also shows working women support legislation that addresses their concerns. About 65 percent said that making healthcare affordable was one of two priorities that would most improve their lives as working women. Their second priority was making retirement more secure.

African-American women cited strengthening laws that challenge discrimination and unfair treatment and strengthening equal-pay laws as one of their top two legislative priorities.

Just last week an American Bar Association report revealed 81 percent of minority women quit private law firms within five years because they get shunted into dead-end jobs and aren't welcomed the same way as other new employees.

The study urged firms to enforce existing anti-discrimination and anti-harassment policies, and do more to integrate minority women into firms' professional and social fabric.

In the wake of the AFL-CIO survey, Nussbaum said she urges women to support an increase in the minimum wage and push for universal healthcare and pay equity.
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: mantis on August 09, 2006, 10:14:24 AM
Architect: I tend to agree with you that some of the complaints generated by the - granted, not entirely representative - survey are not necessarily "racist" and are probably best dealt with by developing a thick skin (or willingness to joke around, if you prefer).  However, I do think it's a little bit sad that people might not understand why not all Asian/Cyrillic/insert-non-western-alphabet-here languages are the same.  If you went to a halfway decent law school I would hope you were well-educated enough to understand the concept of different languages based on the same alphabet.  I've accepted that it will generally be part of my role to explain why, as Chinese person, I can't translate Korean (or Chinese for that matter... but whatever); why, even though I'm Mexican, I still can't direct you to a gardener or maid or whatever; why, even though I'm a woman, I don't have a "time of the month" when I'm irrational and angry all the time.  I've accepted it.  But that doesn't mean I think that it's right.  And that doesn't mean that I can't hope it will be different in ten years, twenty years, and so on.

Also, I think there's a pretty wide difference between a colleague giving me a hard time because - perhaps like you - I have somewhat snobbish tastes in food or music and someone suggesting that, because I'm Native American, the day might come that I want to scalp her.  Even in jest I think there are some things that cross the line.  Race-based suggestions of violence being one of those things.  I realize the person probably thought it was a really funny joke, but when that woman objects to being called Pocahontas (because she probably has an actual name) I don't think it's justified to accuse her of spoiling the atmosphere of the workplace.

Last thing:

Quote
Perhaps minority candidates tend to graduate with a much lower rank in the class (from what I’ve read they do) and thus, to find a similar candidate for a top 10% white grad from a school ranked in the 40s you have to get a T14 minority candidate in the bottom 30% of the class.

I concede that this is a possibility.  However, assuming that the minority candidates came from a better school/lower class rank than their white peers seems equally erroneous as assuming that they all came from the same class rank.  Where am I trying to go with this... I guess, just to say that none of us -- person quoted in the NPR story as well -- is in a position to make any assessments about hiring practices unless we have the full information about the hires.  Now if the person quoted is on one of the recruitment committees or something, that's a different story...
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: jfields32 on August 11, 2006, 09:39:04 PM
Right, what law firm isn't looking for ways to increase minorities at all levels of the firm these days? The results of this 'study' are partially a byproduct af AA in law school admissions accepting lesser qualified applicants, and then those applicants being hired upon graduation just because they went to a top school and are a female minority. And it is just plain hard for anyone to move up at a law firm and get good assignments, not just minority women. How many leave to have children? How many leave on their own accord?    


That's true, but that doesn't justify further increasing the difficulty for these female lawyers at a chance for advancement

Not only that, but some of the other things going on at those firms are things that are so blatantly racist I would think "leaving on their own accord" would be a little tainted.  How easy would it really be to stay if one of the partners at your firm left a message on your voice mail "speaking gibberish, trying to sound like an Asian speaker."  I got that kind of phone call from drunken frat boys when I was in college.  I certainly wouldn't expect to have to deal with it from a colleague in an educated profession.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5613964


Where did you go to school?

I went to Washington and Lee University.  (And I graduated a while ago, so.. grains of salt all around.)

It's not that behavior like this was necessarily an every-day occurrence, but it happened frequently enough to make an impression.  Don't get me wrong, I love W&L for everything it gave me and I think it was really only a handful of seriously misguided students who had racist/ignorant leanings.  I also think this kind of problem, not just for Asians but for most (if not all) minority groups on campus, is fairly common nationwide.  Not even blatantly offensive acts like that necessarily, just a pervading cultural stigma or exclusion or something.  After a while I decided it was mostly a symptom of those few classmates never having interacted with "different" people before.  I had never really dealt with people like them either so.. it was a learning experience for us both.  ;)

W&L is one of the most racist places i have ever been. My visit there really opened up my eyes.  I was like they had never seen a person of color before. Even the other bball players treated me like i was some ghetto child, they even had the nerve to leave me in lexington during the middle of the night. And to me being in Lexington at night, is scarier too me than camdem or philly. Minorities stay away from this place if you have any other choice.
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: mantis on August 14, 2006, 06:48:56 AM
Quote
W&L is one of the most racist places i have ever been. My visit there really opened up my eyes.  I was like they had never seen a person of color before. Even the other bball players treated me like i was some ghetto child, they even had the nerve to leave me in lexington during the middle of the night. And to me being in Lexington at night, is scarier too me than camdem or philly. Minorities stay away from this place if you have any other choice.

It has taken me a while to figure out how I want to respond to this... I'm also a non-white person and so I feel a degree of kinship with other non-white people in that regard.  However, I went to Washington and Lee and while I wouldn't say that my experience was 100% awesome/pleasant/perfect/etc., I feel like I need to defend it...

I agree, there are students there who come from a sheltered, ignorant place.  At times this can come off as overt racism.  At the same time... there are two potential factors that at least deserve consideration in dealing with those people.  One, I honestly believe that a lot of these people really HAVEN'T ever seen a person of color before.  I mean, not in a literal sense (surely they've SEEN Condi Rice or Alberto Gonzales or whomever) but in a real sense of interacting with that person on a regular basis.  And two, It's easy for me to say, "Well, they should just get over it and treat me like a person," when I have no idea what kind of background is informing their behavior.  From what I gather from a fair share of my classmates, it's not uncommon for an older generation of southerners to have certain attitudes about people of color.  They attempt to pass this down to their children or grandchildren and, not having interacted with anyone to tell them any different, those children go on to believe it.

I'm not trying to defend people who then use this as an excuse to hate, merely trying to offer an explanation.

I would never suggest that someone go to Washington and Lee if they weren't ready to deal with a fair share of ignorance and - potentially - racism.  However, if you're strong enough and willing enough and... whatever.. I feel like it's critical for more people of color and white allies to go to schools like Washington and Lee.  Most of the students there really are open to other perspectives if you can figure out a way of communicating with them.  I would never deny that part of my experience there was miserable, but I learned a lot and I think I taught a lot too.  I don't know.  I feel like we can't just get to a place, say, "this isn't how it should be" and then leave and hope it gets better on its own. 
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: ->Soon on August 14, 2006, 09:09:12 AM
http://money.cnn.com/2006/08/14/news/companies/pepsico_ceo/index.htm?cnn=yes

this lady made it.  and PepsiCo is HUGE...
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: ->Soon on August 15, 2006, 01:25:36 PM
Sheila Johnson, who co-founded Black Entertainment Television (BET) and became the first black American woman billionaire.

wow, i didnt know that!  you go girl!!!!
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: pikey on August 16, 2006, 06:21:32 AM
Sheila Johnson, who co-founded Black Entertainment Television (BET) and became the first black American woman billionaire.

wow, i didnt know that!  you go girl!!!!

She co-founded it with her husband.  Not to knock her acheivement, but it's not like she had to break through the glass ceiling when he was the company's 'front man'.
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: ->Soon on August 16, 2006, 06:22:47 AM
Sheila Johnson, who co-founded Black Entertainment Television (BET) and became the first black American woman billionaire.

wow, i didnt know that!  you go girl!!!!

She co-founded it with her husband.  Not to knock her acheivement, but it's not like she had to break through the glass ceiling when he was the company's 'front man'.

Oh.

but still, im sure she helped.
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: pikey on August 16, 2006, 06:31:53 AM
Sheila Johnson, who co-founded Black Entertainment Television (BET) and became the first black American woman billionaire.

wow, i didnt know that!  you go girl!!!!

She co-founded it with her husband.  Not to knock her acheivement, but it's not like she had to break through the glass ceiling when he was the company's 'front man'.

Oh.

but still, im sure she helped.

Of course she helped.  When it comes to the 'glass ceiling', competency is very rarely the issue.  It comes down to opportunity.  She had the opportunity because people were willing to deal with a man (her husband).  Most women are not given the same opportunities as man (the 'good' deals, networking opps, etc), which limits their career success.
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: ->Soon on August 17, 2006, 04:30:41 AM
perhas the chickie boos will have the last laugh after all.

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/departments/adultlearning/?article=CollegeWoman&GT1=8432

just rememebr, I love women!
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: h2xblive on August 17, 2006, 08:58:54 AM
perhas the chickie boos will have the last laugh after all.

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/departments/adultlearning/?article=CollegeWoman&GT1=8432

just rememebr, I love women!

I'm excited about women running things.
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: ->Soon on August 31, 2006, 11:08:41 AM
lawyer babes

http://www.slate.com/id/2148649/
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: ->Soon on August 31, 2006, 11:18:53 AM
hmmmm, the above article mentioned something i never thought of, and something im sure is a very small factor but

how many women never get opps because the people currently in power(the men) arent allowed to hire/mentor women by their wives?

prob doesnt happen much, but now that i think about it, i bet it does happen!
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: ->Soon on September 05, 2006, 10:31:11 AM
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-mommytrack5sep05,0,6848057.story?coll=la-home-headlines

doesnt seem very fair to discriminate against people who choose to remain child free.
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: pikey on September 05, 2006, 11:10:42 AM
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-mommytrack5sep05,0,6848057.story?coll=la-home-headlines

doesnt seem very fair to discriminate against people who choose to remain child free.

I don't see how it discriminates against people who are child free.  Both are on a partner track, the person who works longer hours will get there first.  Its not like they're allowing parents to stay on the track at the same schedule as those who work longer hours.

At Deloitte they allow anyone to take time off (up to 5 yrs for child care or personal growth).  It's not limited to parents.

E&Y just offers an informal venting/mentoring service for mothers.  If you want an informal workplace mentor, go find one!

Am I missing something?
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: ->Soon on September 05, 2006, 11:14:17 AM
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-mommytrack5sep05,0,6848057.story?coll=la-home-headlines

doesnt seem very fair to discriminate against people who choose to remain child free.

I don't see how it discriminates against people who are child free.  Both are on a partner track, the person who works longer hours will get there first.  Its not like they're allowing parents to stay on the track at the same schedule as those who work longer hours.

At Deloitte they allow anyone to take time off (up to 5 yrs for child care or personal growth).  It's not limited to parents.

E&Y just offers an informal venting/mentoring service for mothers.  If you want an informal workplace mentor, go find one!

Am I missing something?

what if, as a single, chile free male i wanted to work 2/3 hours for 2/3 pay.  i dont think theyd let me.  especially not if half the other guys said they wanted to do it to.
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: pikey on September 05, 2006, 12:19:12 PM
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-mommytrack5sep05,0,6848057.story?coll=la-home-headlines

doesnt seem very fair to discriminate against people who choose to remain child free.

I don't see how it discriminates against people who are child free.  Both are on a partner track, the person who works longer hours will get there first.  Its not like they're allowing parents to stay on the track at the same schedule as those who work longer hours.

At Deloitte they allow anyone to take time off (up to 5 yrs for child care or personal growth).  It's not limited to parents.

E&Y just offers an informal venting/mentoring service for mothers.  If you want an informal workplace mentor, go find one!

Am I missing something?

what if, as a single, chile free male i wanted to work 2/3 hours for 2/3 pay.  i dont think theyd let me.  especially not if half the other guys said they wanted to do it to.

Depends on the company.  They're are plenty of people who work part time at my organization for various reasons.
Title: Re: Ouch - Minorty women screwed at firms...
Post by: ->Soon on September 05, 2006, 12:38:11 PM
mmmmmmmmmmm, that would be nice...