Law School Discussion

Specific Groups => Black Law Students => Topic started by: 2Lacoste on July 19, 2006, 09:24:01 AM

Title: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on July 19, 2006, 09:24:01 AM
My Life As An Associate
Jonathan Foreman

The terrible truth dawned on me as I sat on the flowered patio of a midtown restaurant. I was smiling at the summer associate, and he was smiling at me. There were three other associates and three other summer people, all tucking into northern Italian delicacies under a sultry sky. I was smiling at this fellow—whom I liked a lot—and lying to him. I was telling him how much "fun" it was to work at the firm. How the "collegial atmosphere" made all the difference. How ours was not a "sweatshop" like other firms I could mention. As the cliches tumbled out of my mouth and he drank them in like a traveler in the desert, I realized that I had become a Company Man.

There I was—the rebel, who almost every day caballed in corners with my fellow disenchanted ones—seducing another victim. Pulling another sucker into the machine. My late father worked in a circus as a teenager, back in the thirties. He told me that the carnies called the yokels they gulled "marks." Here I was luring a "mark" of a different sort into his very own cage in the menagerie.The big firm I worked at was— like all big New York law firms—a cultural oddity. It combined aspects of the boarding school I had attended in England with the political climate of the former Soviet Union. Like school it was a nightmare world of irrational hierarchies, institutionalized bullying, and overwhelming peer pressure. Like the bad old USSR it combined grotesque inefficiency with a culture of Orwellian surveillance, universal distrust, shameless sucking up, and constant dishonesty. High ideals were honored only in the breach. Capricious tyrants roamed the hallways, the terrifying reality behind the movie The Revenge of the Nerds. Those who flourished in the system were almost always monsters, twisted into Balzacian shapes by the struggle for power. The office was a petri dish for the growth of abnormal psychologies.

Economically it represented a perfect reification of various Marxist theories. As associates we were wage slaves, members of a white-collar proletariat, objectively closer to the model described in Das Kapital than most nineteenth-century factory hands. It may seem odd to call someone a wage slave whose starting salary was $85,000 (though broken down per hour it was much less impressive). But the work of a junior associate, in reality, is being a clerk, a checker, the one whose job is on the line to make sure that the decimal points are in the right place. No one with an Ivy League education is going to perform this sort of drudgery for much less than 80 grand.

We were also faced with alienation from the products of our labor. You would work on the tiniest part of a huge transaction. You would never see the big picture, never know if your all-nighter made a difference, if your clauses appeared in the final documents, never even find out if the deal had gone through.

And to make the life bearable, you found yourself spending a lot of money. After a particularly long and dreary project, or a humiliating interaction with someone of higher rank, I would often slip out to buy myself a little present, perhaps another Ferragamo tie. It's a way of reminding yourself that despite your misery you are a highly paid professional: you may feel like a serf, but you can afford to spend $80 on a beautiful strip of silk. This becomes a way of life. Some people eat chocolate to make themselves feel better; lawyers buy stuff. As they claw their way up the ladder, they buy more and more. Before they know it, they cannot imagine living without an enormous salary.

For a young, single associate this means making up for the unpredictability or lack of a social life by spending freely on your few free evenings. I took taxis everywhere without a thought. I dined at the most expensive restaurants in town because, dammit, it was the only real perk of the job. Lawyers pulling 100-hour weeks have more money than time. So, when we got to take our vacations, we just threw down our gold cards in front of the travel agent and didn't even look at the bill.

Most of us had expensive apartments. Again the thinking was, if my life is going to be so awful, at least I'll have a decent place to come home to. I tried not to think about how little time I spent in my pad, with its great views and empty fridge.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on July 19, 2006, 09:24:21 AM

I had struck a Faustian bargain, and I was stuck with it. Without considering its implications, I had sold the firm an option on my time. All my time. I could be called at 3am on Saturday and ordered to go to the office for some proofreading. A friend of mine was forced to miss his sister's wedding. Fathers who were up for partnership worked so hard they never saw the children whose private educations they were paying for. I remember seeing sixth-year associates humbly swallow insults like "shithead" and "jerkoff." We may have been professionals to the outside world. But we cringed and scraped like Dickensian factory hands. We had paid $100,000 in school fees to become members of a white-collar proletariat, loathing our paperwork mill but desperate to continue working in it.

It was worse for the married associates. Some of them had spouses whose affections were predicated on an expensive way of life. Many had children or had taken on mortgages on apartments in an elegant part of town. It all gave the firm more leverage. The loss of your salary was such a terrifying prospect that they could do anything they wanted to you, and you would take it, like the fraternity pledges in the movie Animal House who replied to each blow of the paddle with, "Thank you, sir. May I have another?"

Nor was it simply a matter of money. Many were also bound by chains of status. They believed that you were either "on the track" or not. If you weren't a banker, a consultant, or a lawyer at a big-name firm, you would be seen as a loser by your parents, or worse, by the people you went to college with. No one would want to marry you.

We had known a few people who had become teachers or academics or would-be filmmakers. It was a cute and daring thing to do right out of school. But if you didn't want to be a nobody at 28, you were supposed to get serious and get a JD or an MBA. Friends who didn't get this became embarrassing. You couldn't really mix them with other friends who were successful, so you lost track of them. And they all disappeared—presumably into unfancy neighborhoods, where they were engaged in a desperate struggle against poverty and humiliation.

Such thinking was less prevalent among those associates who came from wealthy, long-established families. On a presumably unconscious level, the firm understood this, and therefore recruited heavily from among those who were the first in their families to go to college. It wasn't just that lawyers from the outer boroughs were hungrier. Being associated with a famous name meant more to them. It was a bigger part of who they were. In terms of leverage, it gave the firm an extra twist of the wrench.

Our firm had what it called an "open-door policy." "It's so anybody can ask anyone else a question at any time," my smooth "partner-advisor" explained with a mirthless smile. It did not mean we were part of one big, happy, cooperative family. It meant you had to have your office door open all the time so they could make sure you weren't reading the paper or making personal phone calls. Or worse, talking to headhunters in a desperate attempt to get out.

We all believed that our phone calls were being taped. (This was years before The Firm became a best-seller or a movie.) We would joke about it. Having complained about a partner's atrocity, you would say, "Well, if they play this tape my career is over" and laugh. Then you would put the phone down, feeling sick at your indiscretion.

The only time you weren't being watched was in the library or when you visited word processing in the working-class ghetto on the windowless third floor. The people down there, the proofreaders and photocopying guys, seemed to lead a carefree, jolly existence when their numbers weren't being halved by downsizing. Visiting them, I could breathe again. At first they were suspicious of any "suit." But if you avoided the temptation to be an a-hole with the only people lower than you on the totem pole, they could save your life. Many times I was in a crisis, and Maria from Borough Park would put my stuff on the top of the pile. The jerks had theirs put at the bottom.

It was a terrible epiphany after spending so many thousands of dollars and working so hard to realize that the people I sometimes envied the most at the firm were the security guards. They stood all day in the huge glass-walled lobby under a giant piece of hideous pop art. They saw the sun and the sky all day. They saw the traffic and the people shopping. And they went home when their eight-hour shifts were over.

We, on the other hand, were all either pale and fat or pale and skinny. Day/night, weekend/weekday were distinctions that had lost all meaning. On the subway one day I heard a girl make a disparaging remark about a man having a "lawyer's body." We had the shadowed eyes you associate with heroin addicts. The only ones among us who weren't soft and flabby were the running fanatics. The firm encouraged its employees to run the marathon, especially if they had a chance of winning, as one partner had done a few years ago. It had something to do with the masochistic discipline involved.

At my boarding school every boy with four working limbs was forced to play rugby, in the traditional belief that the experience would build "character." Those who used a doctor's note to get out of it were marked forever as outsiders and malingerers. In the firm we were similarly expected to take part in, or at least watch, summer intra-firm softball. Softball was played with summer associates. Like the long, expensive lunches, the outings to country clubs, and the theater trips, softball games were part of a recruiting process that involved the construction of a Potemkin law firm between the beginning of June and the end of August. They were therefore an orgy of fake bonhomie, forced sportsmanship, and hail-fellow-well-met post-game beer drinking. Also an opportunity for some of the partners to "get to know" the more attractive female summer associates. The pretty ones inevitably received offers at the end of the summer, and often their affairs with their married sponsors lasted for several years.

Basketball, on the other hand, was played for real against the best that rival firms could offer. No one held back. People were crude, rude, and competitive to a psychotic degree. One of our partners was ejected by security guards from another firm's building after assaulting one of his opponents, screaming at the referee, refusing to leave the game, and overturning a table.

The partners were obsessed by team sports in inverse proportion to their athletic abilities. Any associate who had played in college or professional sports—and the recruiters had a weakness for such men—was fawned over endlessly. The young female associates who rose the quickest were those who could reel off baseball stats and name all the Heisman Trophy winners of the past 20 years. And, of course, sports metaphors sprinkled every conversation. The firm preferred "team players," but everyone had to be a "potential quarterback."

Partly in obedience to the dictates of some eighties business guru, our departments were renamed "teams." This did not cause them to resemble teams in any way. After all, just to survive you had to play a zero-sum game. I'd worked in Hollywood and in restaurant kitchens and had traveled through a Latin American civil war. But this was the jungle. To paraphrase La Rochefoucauld, it was not enough to be seen to succeed; others had to fail. If something went wrong, you didn't hesitate to load the blame on someone beneath you in the hierarchy. If things went well, you ruthlessly took as much credit as you could get away with.

The "team leaders" maintained esprit de corps through the careful application of terror and a sustained and successful effort to divide and rule. Some made no secret of their wish to get rid of as many of us as possible and have the rump then work twice as hard. They longed for the day, presumably not far off, when we would all be replaced by clever computer software.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on July 19, 2006, 09:24:52 AM

Lying was a way of life—a necessity and therefore a virtue. When a partner came into my office and told me that he had a "very interesting assignment" for me, I knew for certain that it would involve mindless, repetitious, stunningly dull work. Of course, none of what I did as an associate would be regarded by anyone on the outside as "interesting." I mean, it was better than staring at the wall of a cell or watching ants walk across the ceiling. But if it was officially designated as "interesting," then it would turn out to be crushingly boring. And it was my duty to pretend that I was excited at the prospect of another assignment. Once engrossed in, say, counting the pages of a document that was incompatible with our computer system, I would have to show enthusiasm for the task. And when it was finally done, having taken over my nights and weekends, I would have to show profound gratitude.


Our corporate culture required the show of enthusiasm in all circumstances. A partner would come into your office and ask if you had any plans for the weekend. The correct answer was "no." And you would then be given an assignment to fill your empty Saturday and Sunday. The first time I was asked the question, I mumbled something about having hoped to go to Vermont. The young partner, who was nicknamed "Dave the Barracuda," looked at me with a combination of incredulity and sympathy, as if I had just confessed to a subnormal IQ. "It's a rhetorical question," he explained with an exasperated sigh, before proceeding to assign me 20 hours of research.

Every week we had to fill out a form saying how many hours we had billed the week before and for which client. If you put down a number that suggested you had enjoyed an easy week, the assignments partner would soon wander through your open door and ask if you were busy. It was another rhetorical question: it meant that you were about to become extremely busy. It also meant that there was an incentive not to work too fast. The idea was to charge as many billable hours to clients as would seem reasonable sometime in the future. If you worked too fast, the firm would not be getting its money's worth, and you would be rewarded immediately with another assignment. So our progress was sedate even when we were billing over 100 hours a week.

Sometimes we junior associates were given secretarial work to do on the weekends. It made sense for the partnership. Our salaries were high and fixed; secretaries cost overtime. The work had to be done, and you could charge some or all of it to the client as if it were real legal work at $200 an hour. None of us could complain, because a single complaint, even a look of resentment, was a "CDM"—a career-damaging move. You would blow your chances of partnership. You would sacrifice your twenties and early thirties for nothing. They would keep you on as a slave for seven years, getting more and more out of you as the dream of partnership came closer, and then make you walk the plank with ill-concealed amusement.

The ex-hippies were the worst people to work for. If you went into a forty-something partner's office and saw a picture of him with hair down to his shoulders, you were in trouble. You would be dealing with someone whose cynicism was boundless, a shark in pinstripes, a creature to whom decency was just an old-fashioned superstition favored by the old, the foolish, and the weak.

For a while my own department was run by a bankruptcy lawyer we called "Caligula" for his capriciousness and the pleasure he took in torturing the vulnerable. Caligula was short and vain and bore an extraordinary resemblance to John Gotti, the New York gangster known as the "Dapper Don." It was a resemblance he took pains to cultivate. He wore only Armani suits and would noisily send his secretary off to Saks for ties and handkerchiefs.

Some mornings he was genial. He would pop into your office for a friendly, slightly awkward chat. Other times you could hear his screaming on distant floors. Anything could set him off. A friend of mine named George had joined the firm as an associate in his late thirties. He was overweight, balding, and single, and desperately aware of all three. George had foolishly enlisted the help of one of Caligula's tough-talking female cronies in composing a singles ad for New York magazine. When Caligula found out, he teased the poor fellow relentlessly, adding the advertisement to his usual jibes about baldness. George was clever and witty and was given the most intellectually demanding assignments, but he remained the butt of relentless bullying. It took months of abuse before he got up the courage to attempt a mild jibe at his chief tormentor.

One morning, Caligula came in after 9:30 with the collar of his suit coat twisted over. George went up to him nervously, fixed his collar, and said to him, "Not quite the epitome of sartorial elegance today, eh, Andrew?" Whereupon Caligula whirled round and shouted at the top of his voice, "You f-ing a-hole! You are this close to losing your job" (holding two fingers close together).

Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on July 19, 2006, 09:25:28 AM
In theory, the hierarchy within the firm was simple. On the one hand, there were the attorneys. And on the other, there were the support staff: secretaries, photocopiers, messengers, paralegals, computer technicians, librarians, and receptionists. In practice the hierarchies were extremely complex and could shift suddenly. But one thing was made fairly clear, and that was that associates belonged with the employees, though many insisted on being deceived by the symbolism of the suits they wore. Associates weren't even at the top of the employee hierarchy. Cuts in support staff meant that attorneys now had to share secretaries—all of whom were survivors who understood perfectly well how valuable they now were to the firm. Some would only get around to typing up documents for lawyers with genuine clout. If you wanted to make an issue of this, it was rapidly made clear that any partner forced to choose between a reasonably competent secretary and a junior associate would unhesitatingly fire the associate. You alienated your secretary at the risk of your career. Some of them achieved extraordinary power, like Stasi agents or Sejanus, captain of the Praetorian Guard.

The end of the eighties came as a terrible surprise to many of the yuppie partners. They had no experience of economic downturns. Their personalities had been forged in the glory days of premium billing, when competing takeover clients threw money in the air the way Haile Selassie used to throw pennies out his limousine window. They had sacrificed everything to gain the partnership. In the eighties a partnership had meant a million or more a year. Suddenly, 1989 came around, and partners were making only $250,000. They had mortgages on Park Avenue apartments to keep up. Something had gone horribly wrong.

Their anger was palpable. In many cases it took on a hysterical tone. It was someone's fault. Everybody else was being paid too much. They fired 20 percent of the support staff, promising that it was a one-time measure. Eighteen months later they did it again. Now there weren't enough receptionists to answer ringing telephones. Documents began to get lost. But the rationalizations had only just begun. There were still inefficient, wasteful elements to be purged.

It was the associates' turn next. This had once been a "white shoe" firm. In other words, it was old, had once been ethnically exclusive, and had an unspoken tradition that you just didn't fire lawyers unless they did something really bad, like commit a felony. If they were no good, or didn't fit in, you gave them a couple of years to find another job. It was one of the perks of being a corporate lawyer instead of an investment banker. Bankers made more money but had to be braver because they could get the push at any time. Lawyers were more risk-averse; they had chosen security over the really big bucks.

All this went out the window. The Young Turks insisted that heads must roll. No one had any experience in the mass firing of colleagues, and no one wanted to claim it as his idea. So management consultants trooped in, at great expense. After several weeks of writing reports and inputting data, they decided that the firm should cut 10 percent of its workforce. The office held its collective breath. No team leader was willing to make the first move. This was Caligula's moment of glory. On the night of the long knives, five associates in my department were called in and told they had six months to find new jobs. One of them was my office mate. He had just persuaded his pregnant wife to give up her job in Rochester and move to Manhattan.

When an investment bank fires people for economic reasons, it says so. Those who are sacked quickly get jobs on the Street if there are any around. Law firms, however, are terrified to admit that they might have financial problems. Clients might leave them. Law students might shun them. So they put it about that the people they fire are just no damn good. They become unemployable.

The Young Turks took a breather after the purge of associates. They enjoyed the fear on the faces of those who remained. They hadn't had such fun since Woodstock. But the fact remained that they were not making the kind of money they felt they deserved. So now it was the turn of the older partners. The forty-somethings began to complain openly to associates about the "deadwood." Rumors of another impending purge spread. You cannot fire partners without a vote of the whole partnership. So you force them out.

The Young Turks had taken control of the compensation committee, and they simply gave the deadwood a smaller and smaller draw of the profits until the humiliation became unbearable. If this treatment failed to bring about resignation, there was always "internal exile." The unfortunate person would be transferred to another department and made to work for another partner as a quasi-associate or, worst of all, assigned to a project that meant having to make frequent trips to some godforsaken place, like Kazakhstan, with its appalling weather and worse food. A few months usually did the trick; 13 partners were thus given the hint to leave. The list was a secret but somehow became known to every associate in the building.

It was this final purge that pushed me over the edge. There's a limit anyway to the number of ties you can buy to make yourself feel better about your life. The jokes about lawyers take their toll. And the fact that nobody was ever impressed when I dropped the name of my employer at cocktail parties—those few I attended—didn't help. It seemed that only law students and their parents thought it was a big deal to work in a Wall Street megafirm. Anybody who had had the slightest contact with corporate law, from investment bankers to secretaries to dancers-cum-proofreaders, just felt sorry for us. Our amazingly high turnover meant that over two years most of the people I liked quit or were fired.

Others, the real unfortunates, were broken to the system. Once the cream of the Ivy League, they had been told too often that they were useless, that they were lucky to have a job at all. Years of semi-brainless paperwork while their college peers were starting businesses or making movies had dissolved their self-confidence. After three or four years the outside world had come to seem a terrifying place. Some claimed they were trying to get out, but one look at their eyes told the whole story.

One of my friends who remained told me that she had always planned to quit after two years, but somehow after four and a half years, she was still there. She just didn't have the time to look for a new job. And, in any case, as a fifth-year, her salary had just gone up by another $20,000. It is no coincidence that your salary starts making bigger jumps after your fourth year. The firm knows that it is at that point that most associates start seriously to consider leaving for smaller firms, so they up the ante. The prospect of being trapped like this scared me. But leaving seemed even more frightening.

Then a friend at Sullivan & Cromwell quit his job and went to Vail for a season before leaving for Hollywood in search of fame and fortune. He called me one morning from Colorado. He was working 30 hours a week in a mountainside store for a season ticket and a small salary. "It sounds crazy," he told me, "but I have no problem getting up for work at 7am here, and when I was practicing, I could barely make it in by 10."

Still I stayed on, mindful of what Dave the Barracuda had said to a senior associate who resigned when forced to move from L.A. to New York: "You'll be poor." Then on a whim I spent eight of my precious vacation days on an Outward Bound alpine mountaineering course in the California Sierras. Part of the course involved rock climbing. I had always been scared of heights, but I did it anyway. As I clung to a granite rock face 100 feet up, it occurred to me that if I could do this, I could quit my job and survive.

So I took my parachute and jumped while I still could.

Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 19, 2006, 10:00:00 AM

We were also faced with alienation from the products of our labor. You would work on the tiniest part of a huge transaction. You would never see the big picture, never know if your all-nighter made a difference, if your clauses appeared in the final documents, never even find out if the deal had gone through.



My biggest complaint about big law.  (Well....at least one of my biggest complaints about big law) As an academic, there ain't a damn bit of learning or room for subtantive growth in the law within a law firm.  You're not even really an attorney. You're a glorified paralegal who knows how to find stuff and write about it.  Its the partners who get to see the big legal picture (and the big bucks).  I've head friends at the blue chip firms in manhattan who billed mad hours working on one bullet point of one brief and couldn't tell you who the client was, let alone the outcome of the case or even so much as when the case went to trial or settled.

Clerkship is starting to look real good right about now, which is crazy b/c I knew nothing about clerkships when I started. It was all about get money at a big firm b/c that's all you know from the outside looking in.  (sound familiar 0L's?  ;) )
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on July 19, 2006, 10:05:14 AM

We were also faced with alienation from the products of our labor. You would work on the tiniest part of a huge transaction. You would never see the big picture, never know if your all-nighter made a difference, if your clauses appeared in the final documents, never even find out if the deal had gone through.



My biggest complaint about big law.  (Well....at least one of my biggest complaints about big law) As an academic, there ain't a damn bit of learning or room for subtantive growth in the law within a law firm.  You're not even really an attorney. You're a glorified paralegal who knows how to find stuff and write about it.  Its the partners who get to see the big legal picture (and the big bucks).  I've head friends at the blue chip firms in manhattan who billed mad hours working on one bullet point of one brief and couldn't tell you who the client was, let alone the outcome of the case or even so much as when the case went to trial or settled.

Clerkship is starting to look real good right about now, which is crazy b/c I knew nothing about clerkships when I started. It was all about get money at a big firm b/c that's all you know from the outside looking in.  (sound familiar 0L's?  ;) )


Reading stuff like this makes me want to avoid a big law firm.  I won't even get to work on stuff that makes me happy (thus making it more difficult to do good work), I'll never enjoy the fruits of my labor, and it won't help me acheive too many of my goals.  Government work (USAO/DOJ/JAG) sounds better every day.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: mivida2k on July 19, 2006, 10:14:25 AM
Don't forget the EEOC
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on July 19, 2006, 10:16:08 AM
Don't forget the EEOC


Perhaps.  CIA sounds like fun, too (though it probably isn't nearly as sexy as it sounds).
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: mivida2k on July 19, 2006, 10:26:06 AM
You would have the opportunity to travel around the world if you worked for the CIA
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Freak on July 19, 2006, 10:34:07 AM
I'd never work big law, I have always intended on working for a small firm (less than 10 attys) for 3-5 yrs and then throw out my own shingle (though if I enjoy where I work, I'll stay).

Going into my 3L, I'm on track. I've been a summer associate 2x now and before ls I worked for 2 different small firms, one in hs. Plus, my aunt runs a solo practice and has helped me a ton.

Forget big law, my free time is worth way more than $100/hr.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: huilian on July 19, 2006, 10:37:36 AM
Don't forget the EEOC


Perhaps.  CIA sounds like fun, too (though it probably isn't nearly as sexy as it sounds).

I thought about CIA since they're always saying they need ppl with critical languages & area studies, but I read up on it and it seems the morale there is pretty bad in general and it's not very welcoming to women & minorities . . . but the travel would be a great perk.

BigLaw sounds awful . . . are these stories designed to weed out the timid or is it really as bad as everyone says?  How do you pay back law school debt without going biglaw?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Freak on July 19, 2006, 10:45:20 AM
Don't forget the EEOC


Perhaps.  CIA sounds like fun, too (though it probably isn't nearly as sexy as it sounds).

I thought about CIA since they're always saying they need ppl with critical languages & area studies, but I read up on it and it seems the morale there is pretty bad in general and it's not very welcoming to women & minorities . . . but the travel would be a great perk.

BigLaw sounds awful . . . are these stories designed to weed out the timid or is it really as bad as everyone says?  How do you pay back law school debt without going biglaw?

I can't say from experience, I've never worked biglaw. From what my classmates say, it depends on the firm, do your homework before applying. The problem is that biglaw is competitive and you might not have the option of picking firms.

LS debt is only about $120k which is only $1200/mth or $15k/yr, even small firms pay $50k/yr or so. You can have a house payment on top of that and still be fine. Further, loans are usually only 3% or so, thus it makes no sense to pay early. Private loans are more, but just knock them off first.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: mivida2k on July 19, 2006, 11:14:59 AM
The morale and environment will change once Dubya and his cowboy posse are gone.  Visit www.bushslastday.com/ (http://www.bushslastday.com/) if you feel discouraged.  That countdown clock cheers me up. 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Kevin26.2 on July 19, 2006, 11:15:44 AM
greawt post.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on July 19, 2006, 11:31:02 AM
The morale and environment will change once Dubya and his cowboy posse are gone.  Visit www.bushslastday.com/ (http://www.bushslastday.com/) if you feel discouraged.  That countdown clock cheers me up. 




Stop attempting to hijack my thread with this mindless Bush bashing.  Goodness gracious!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: THE BLUE SWEATER on July 19, 2006, 12:05:38 PM
Dont worry Lacoste the conservatives are going to bring order to this thread. Anyways how much better is life at the govt. I mean fed jobs start at over 100k. Why dont more people take them? I know you get 30 days paid vacatioon and federal holidays but I mean is quality of life really that mch better. What about the quality of work. I am really thinking about the DOJ.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on July 19, 2006, 12:07:41 PM
Dont worry Lacoste the conservatives are going to bring order to this thread. Anyways how much better is life at the govt. I mean fed jobs start at over 100k. Why dont more people take them? I know you get 30 days paid vacatioon and federal holidays but I mean is quality of life really that mch better. What about the quality of work. I am really thinking about the DOJ.



Yep, same here.  If I don't do politics immediately look for me in the USAO, the DOJ, or the JAG Corps.  Probably no firm work here.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Freak on July 19, 2006, 12:09:00 PM
I'll never do politics. From what I've seen, and I've been security for Mrs. Cheney, politicians are more corrupt than lawyers.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: THE BLUE SWEATER on July 19, 2006, 12:17:42 PM
WTF JAG!!?!?!?! Dont do it dude. You will be doing wills and proscecuting AWOLS for 25 years.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on July 19, 2006, 12:19:58 PM
WTF JAG!!?!?!?! Dont do it dude. You will be doing wills and proscecuting AWOLS for 25 years.


The JAGs I know are former prosecutors at Gitmo.  Somebody has to get the cool jobs; why can't it be me?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: THE BLUE SWEATER on July 19, 2006, 12:27:54 PM
Because that is only 1-3% of jag lawyers. and some arbitrary board is going to pick your assignment of a 2 page records form. and a photo of you. You can't lobby for those positions. Just put in paperwork and pray.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: obamacon on July 19, 2006, 12:37:10 PM
Shearman & Sterling is rather well known for this sort of thing. I would have suggested he go to a better firm (or perhaps that he attend a better law school or not specialize in Con Law), but he jumped ship after 2 years, so oh well.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on July 19, 2006, 12:42:41 PM
Shearman & Sterling is rather well known for this sort of thing. I would have suggested he go to a better firm (or perhaps that he attend a better law school or not specialize in Con Law), but he jumped ship after 2 years, so oh well.


doesn't look as if other firms are significantly better...
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: THE BLUE SWEATER on July 19, 2006, 12:45:32 PM
What would work as a DOJ attorney or a DOE or DOL or DOState attorney. Why dont we ever hear about them? I would really like to hear about that.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: faith2005 on July 19, 2006, 01:19:14 PM
my impression is that its extremely hard to get into the honors program and thats the only way to get in straight off. I met some govt. attys and it seemed like a good number of them had worked in firms or as city prosecutors b/f they got a job with the usao. i think you'll find something similar with the other govt. offices.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 19, 2006, 01:24:23 PM
Don't forget the EEOC


Perhaps.  CIA sounds like fun, too (though it probably isn't nearly as sexy as it sounds).

I thought about CIA since they're always saying they need ppl with critical languages & area studies, but I read up on it and it seems the morale there is pretty bad in general and it's not very welcoming to women & minorities . . . but the travel would be a great perk.

BigLaw sounds awful . . . are these stories designed to weed out the timid or is it really as bad as everyone says?  How do you pay back law school debt without going biglaw?

I can't say from experience, I've never worked biglaw. From what my classmates say, it depends on the firm, do your homework before applying. The problem is that biglaw is competitive and you might not have the option of picking firms.

LS debt is only about $120k which is only $1200/mth or $15k/yr, even small firms pay $50k/yr or so. You can have a house payment on top of that and still be fine. Further, loans are usually only 3% or so, thus it makes no sense to pay early. Private loans are more, but just knock them off first.

Did this cat just say "only $1200/month"??

Having made $50k/yr before coming to law school trust me when I say that a monthly loan payment anywhere near $1k is not going to be pretty.  Even as a single young man with no kids, no wife, and a roommate and coming from the midwest which has one of the lowest costs of living in the nation, $1200 a month would have been a bit steep.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on July 19, 2006, 01:26:22 PM
definitely avoid firms if possible (OSA looks over her shoulder suspiciously).  It isn't that the work will kill you--it is just tremendously isolating.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Freak on July 19, 2006, 01:52:03 PM
Don't forget the EEOC


Perhaps.  CIA sounds like fun, too (though it probably isn't nearly as sexy as it sounds).

I thought about CIA since they're always saying they need ppl with critical languages & area studies, but I read up on it and it seems the morale there is pretty bad in general and it's not very welcoming to women & minorities . . . but the travel would be a great perk.

BigLaw sounds awful . . . are these stories designed to weed out the timid or is it really as bad as everyone says?  How do you pay back law school debt without going biglaw?

I can't say from experience, I've never worked biglaw. From what my classmates say, it depends on the firm, do your homework before applying. The problem is that biglaw is competitive and you might not have the option of picking firms.

LS debt is only about $120k which is only $1200/mth or $15k/yr, even small firms pay $50k/yr or so. You can have a house payment on top of that and still be fine. Further, loans are usually only 3% or so, thus it makes no sense to pay early. Private loans are more, but just knock them off first.

Did this cat just say "only $1200/month"??

Having made $50k/yr before coming to law school trust me when I say that a monthly loan payment anywhere near $1k is not going to be pretty.  Even as a single young man with no kids, no wife, and a roommate and coming from the midwest which has one of the lowest costs of living in the nation, $1200 a month would have been a bit steep.

I've done it in undergrad ($5k every 3mths). I worked full-time and went to school full-time and graduated w/o debt. Granted I lived at home with only $200/mth rent. But then I was only making $22k/yr.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on July 19, 2006, 03:41:19 PM
Don't forget the EEOC


Perhaps.  CIA sounds like fun, too (though it probably isn't nearly as sexy as it sounds).

Its definately not as sexy as it sounds and you will not travel around the world you will be stuck in Washington D.C.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on July 19, 2006, 03:45:42 PM
Don't forget the EEOC


Perhaps.  CIA sounds like fun, too (though it probably isn't nearly as sexy as it sounds).

I thought about CIA since they're always saying they need ppl with critical languages & area studies, but I read up on it and it seems the morale there is pretty bad in general and it's not very welcoming to women & minorities . . . but the travel would be a great perk.

BigLaw sounds awful . . . are these stories designed to weed out the timid or is it really as bad as everyone says?  How do you pay back law school debt without going biglaw?

No disrespect becasue I really appreciate that you read something rather than just presented what is essentially your opinion as fact...I have to disagree with this statement government jobs have in my experience which is going on 8 years The Most inclusive and tolerant environment you will find anywhere. Before anybody get on my nerves yes I am sure there is still discrimination somewhere by somebody but I have never had anywhere near the type of problems with race/diversity whatever as I have had in the private sector.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: obamacon on July 19, 2006, 03:46:24 PM
you will be stuck in Washington D.C.

You say that like it's a bad thing.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on July 19, 2006, 03:48:06 PM
for some people it is for some people it isn't...i just want to destroy the "24" myth that people seem to have...as a DoD lawyer he will be stationed in the DC metro area
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: BrerAnansi on July 19, 2006, 03:51:09 PM
Nothing meaningful to add...except to note that had this been XOXO...a rival thread named "Life As An A-hole" would have immediately sprung up...
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: obamacon on July 19, 2006, 03:51:36 PM
No disrespect becasue I really appreciate that you read something rather than just presented what is essentially your opinion as fact...I have to disagree with this statement government jobs have in my experience which is going on 8 years The Most inclusive and tolerant environment you will find anywhere. Before anybody get on my nerves yes I am sure there is still discrimination somewhere by somebody but I have never had anywhere near the type of problems with race/diversity whatever as I have had in the private sector.

The problem with government jobs is who they attract:

1. People who are too stupid to be working in the private sector
2. Saints who want to make the world a better place
3. People who want to work less
4. People who want power

Most of the people you'll be dealing with fall squarely into catagory #1
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Freak on July 19, 2006, 03:55:12 PM
Don't forget the EEOC


Perhaps.  CIA sounds like fun, too (though it probably isn't nearly as sexy as it sounds).

I thought about CIA since they're always saying they need ppl with critical languages & area studies, but I read up on it and it seems the morale there is pretty bad in general and it's not very welcoming to women & minorities . . . but the travel would be a great perk.

BigLaw sounds awful . . . are these stories designed to weed out the timid or is it really as bad as everyone says?  How do you pay back law school debt without going biglaw?

No disrespect becasue I really appreciate that you read something rather than just presented what is essentially your opinion as fact...I have to disagree with this statement government jobs have in my experience which is going on 8 years The Most inclusive and tolerant environment you will find anywhere. Before anybody get on my nerves yes I am sure there is still discrimination somewhere by somebody but I have never had anywhere near the type of problems with race/diversity whatever as I have had in the private sector.

Government jobs are fine if you don't mind the corruption and inefficiency. It pays well and can be as rewarding as you make it.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on July 19, 2006, 03:55:33 PM
No disrespect becasue I really appreciate that you read something rather than just presented what is essentially your opinion as fact...I have to disagree with this statement government jobs have in my experience which is going on 8 years The Most inclusive and tolerant environment you will find anywhere. Before anybody get on my nerves yes I am sure there is still discrimination somewhere by somebody but I have never had anywhere near the type of problems with race/diversity whatever as I have had in the private sector.

The problem with government jobs is who they attract:

1. People who are too stupid to be working in the private sector
2. Saints who want to make the world a better place
3. People who want to work less
4. People who want power

Most of the people you'll be dealing with fall squarely into catagory #1



you are showing your ignorance
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on July 19, 2006, 04:30:04 PM
No disrespect becasue I really appreciate that you read something rather than just presented what is essentially your opinion as fact...I have to disagree with this statement government jobs have in my experience which is going on 8 years The Most inclusive and tolerant environment you will find anywhere. Before anybody get on my nerves yes I am sure there is still discrimination somewhere by somebody but I have never had anywhere near the type of problems with race/diversity whatever as I have had in the private sector.

The problem with government jobs is who they attract:

1. People who are too stupid to be working in the private sector
2. Saints who want to make the world a better place
3. People who want to work less
4. People who want power

Most of the people you'll be dealing with fall squarely into catagory #1



you are showing your ignorance

Especially if he's talking about federal government lawyer jobs.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on July 19, 2006, 04:32:05 PM
I mean fed jobs start at over 100k.

I don't know what fed jobs you're looking at...
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on July 19, 2006, 04:34:40 PM
I mean fed jobs start at over 100k.

I don't know what fed jobs you're looking at...

dont get sucked in ...i almost did this guy is either a clown or flaming
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: obamacon on July 19, 2006, 04:59:50 PM
you are showing your ignorance

If you do manage to work in the private sector you'll hear quite a few comparisons of government lawyers to sporting maneuvers. The most common one I hear is from golf "I've got another fed to tee up tomorrow," but baseball (something to do with a homerun) and basketball (something slam-dunk) are pretty close seconds. Make a few friends of firm partners, and you’ll eventually hear something along these lines.

The basic equation is undeniable. A law firm has its pick of the best people. It will pay them highly and work them as long as it takes to reach the goals of their clients. Resources for law firms and their clients are virtually infinite, and competition is almost always intense.

Comparatively, the government gets less able people willing to work for fewer dollars who are often tasked with more than they can be expected to competently deal with. Their client doesn’t demand as much from them, and their limits on working hours are often much higher.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on July 20, 2006, 12:15:33 AM
Gov't is boring and slow. Everyone seems bored. I need just a little intensity, excitement, something!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: dbgirl on July 20, 2006, 01:03:51 AM

I'd never work big law, I have always intended on working for a small firm (less than 10 attys) for 3-5 yrs and then throw out my own shingle (though if I enjoy where I work, I'll stay).



This is what I've begun to think about - if I go into civil litigation (I'm still strongly considering criminal law).
The more I get to know solo practioners the more attractive it seems. I don't like the idea of feast or famine - the idea of not having a steady salary makes me a bit nervous, but I really like the idea of controlling my environment.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: dbgirl on July 20, 2006, 01:07:28 AM
you are showing your ignorance

If you do manage to work in the private sector you'll hear quite a few comparisons of government lawyers to sporting maneuvers. The most common one I hear is from golf "I've got another fed to tee up tomorrow," but baseball (something to do with a homerun) and basketball (something slam-dunk) are pretty close seconds. Make a few friends of firm partners, and you’ll eventually hear something along these lines.

The basic equation is undeniable. A law firm has its pick of the best people. It will pay them highly and work them as long as it takes to reach the goals of their clients. Resources for law firms and their clients are virtually infinite, and competition is almost always intense.

Comparatively, the government gets less able people willing to work for fewer dollars who are often tasked with more than they can be expected to competently deal with. Their client doesn’t demand as much from them, and their limits on working hours are often much higher.

Some of the finest lawyers I know are government lawyers.  Not everyone finds big law appealing.
I like the idea that I could, oh, I don't know, have Christmas off. Or, perhaps take a summer vacation.
And, given the fact that I am chronically ill I don't think I want to work 24/7.  :o
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: pikey on July 20, 2006, 06:37:46 AM
I would like to work for a bank in either trusts or real estate (or maybe even general counsel).  The problem is that they all ask for experienced lawyers.  If anyone knows a good way to get there without working BigLaw for a few years please let me know. 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: THE BLUE SWEATER on July 20, 2006, 06:59:53 AM
I mean fed jobs start at over 100k.

I don't know what fed jobs you're looking at...

dont get sucked in ...i almost did this guy is either a clown or flaming


I am neither please refer to entry level DOJ jobs (1-2 years) listed below that I pulled directly off their site. Yes the Salary is below 100k but with COLA (cost of living allowance and benefits) it s easily a 100k salary. This depends on where in the country you are. If you are in DC it will push you over 100k. When you go up 1 or 2 GS levels it is easiily over 100k.

If you have previously applied for the GS-14 attorney vacancy in July 2006, at the Consolidated Legal Center, Miami, Florida, and/or the GS-12/13 attorney vacancy in June 2006, at the Consolidated Legal Center, Coleman, Florida, and are interested in applying for this position, you need not submit another application, verbal notification is sufficient.

About the Office: The legal practice at the Consolidated Legal Center (CLC) covers a wide variety of issues focusing on correctional law and litigation, either through administrative or litigation channels and includes such matters as inmates’ reasonable access to the courts (through access to legal materials, legal correspondence, and attorney-client visits), conditions of confinement, medical care, diet and religious accommodations, housing assignments, hygiene and sanitation, and discipline.

Responsibilities and Opportunity Offered: The position includes being involved in the management of a legal office that oversees the legal operations associated with the following five correctional institutions: Federal Prison Camp, Pensacola, Florida; Federal Correctional Institution, Marianna, Florida; Federal Correctional Institution, Tallahassee, Florida; Federal Correctional Institution, Miami, Florida; and Federal Detention Center, Miami, Florida. The incumbent will be expected to provide advice and guidance to all levels of staff at these correctional facilities, including members of the Executive staff. The incumbent will also be expected to communicate with defense attorneys, prosecutors, federal courts, the private bar, and agency officials. The incumbent will need to develop a thorough knowledge of all aspects of BOP policy and practice as he/she may be required to appear in District Court on short notice to explain and advocate the agency's rationale for its correctional management decisions.

Qualifications: Required qualifications: Interested parties must possess a J.D. degree, be an active member of the bar (any jurisdiction), and have at least 1 year post-J.D. experience.

Preferred qualifications: Prior experience in correctional law is highly desired, though not required.

Travel: Travel is not normally required.

Salary Information: Current salary and years of experience will determine the appropriate salary levels. The possible salary range, including locality pay adjustments, is GS-12 ($65,236 to $84,804) to GS-13 ($77,576 to $100,845).

Location: Miami, Florida

Relocation Expenses: Not authorized.

Submission Process and Deadline Date: Applicants must submit a resume or current OF-612 (Optional Application for Federal Employment), a cover letter (highlighting relevant experience) and a writing sample by July 21, 2006 to:



This position is open until filled, but no later than July 25, 2006.

Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: THE BLUE SWEATER on July 20, 2006, 07:00:52 AM
Your first promotion to GS-14, even without time i grade, will easily put you over 100k.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: THE BLUE SWEATER on July 20, 2006, 07:08:13 AM
If you hang around for two years and get this GS-15 position you are making above 120 (you will have time in grade and will likely have moved 1 GS grade up the lader. Is the extra 30-50k at a firm really worth losing 30 days paid vacation which you are usually forced to take. (Yes I was forced to use my leave days once). Or coming home at night? As far as interesting work MO...Understaffed means there are fewer people to handle the real work. That tells me I will be doing more of it. The government can afford for you to be a glorified paralegal as sands said. They need you to be a lawyer

Anyways bottom line you can make 100k at the DOJ or any ohter federal attorneys office as they are on the same pay system. If not your first year defenitly in your first or third. Most of there mid level jobs are filled in house. Check this out with 2 years experience.

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
CRIMINAL DIVISION
ASSET FORFEITURE AND MONEY LAUNDERING SECTION
TRIAL ATTORNEY, GS-905-13/14/15
06-CRM-AFMLS-024


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About the Office: The Criminal Division of the U.S. Department of Justice, is seeking an experienced attorney to fill a position in the International Programs Unit of the Asset Forfeiture and Money Laundering Section in Washington, D.C.

The Asset Forfeiture and Money Laundering Section investigates and prosecutes complex money laundering and asset forfeiture cases and provides support on asset forfeiture and money laundering issues to each of the 93 United States Attorneys’ offices and the component agencies.

Responsibilities and
Opportunity Offered: The incumbent’s responsibilities will include:

Provide case support and legal advice to AUSAs and foreign officials in money laundering and asset forfeiture investigations and proceedings and on other related matters with international sensitivities;

Handle litigation relating to the execution of incoming requests from foreign officials that will require the filing of restraining order applications and applications to enforce foreign judgments as well as litigation in conjunction with the litigation unit of AFMLS and US Attorneys Offices relating to the forfeiture of assets beyond U.S. borders;

Provide technical assistance to foreign governments and international organizations on the drafting and implementation of money laundering and asset forfeiture legislation;

Assist in the development of USG policy in international forfeiture and money laundering matters through participation on inter-agency working groups and international organizations and bodies;

Provide international money laundering and asset forfeiture training to domestic and foreign law enforcement; and

Participate in negotiations and consultations with foreign governments concerning forfeiture cooperation and international asset sharing.
Qualifications:Excellent academic credentials; federal criminal litigation experience; diplomatic experience or experience with public international organizations, strong advocacy and legal writing skills; sound judgment; excellent interpersonal, public speaking and diplomatic skills; and a demonstrated commitment to public service.
Required qualifications: Interested applicants must possess a J.D. degree, be duly licensed and authorized to practice as an attorney under the laws of any State, territory of the United States, or the District of Columbia, and have at least two (2) years post J.D. experience. Applicants must be an active member of the bar in good standing.

Familiarity with money laundering and asset forfeiture law and international criminal law is highly desired.

Proficiency in a foreign language is strongly desired.

Travel: Routine travel will be required for conferences and litigation work throughout the United States. Foreign travel is also required.

Salary Information: Current salary and years of experience determine the appropriate salary level. The possible range for a GS-13 position is $77,353 to $100,554 a GS-14 position is $91,407 To $118,828 and a GS-15 position is $107,521 to $139,774 per annum. (See OPM’s Web page at www.opm.gov/oca/payrates/index.htm.)

Location: Washington, D.C.

Relocation Expenses: Relocation expenses are not authorized.

Application Process
and Deadline Date: Applicants must submit a cover letter (highlighting relevant experience), a detailed resume or OF-612 (Optional Application for Federal Employment) or SF-171 (Application for Federal Employment) and a current performance evaluation, if applicable.
Applicants need not submit a separate application for each position. Please indicate on your application for which position(s) you would like to be considered. Please forward all required documents to:


U.S. Department of Justice
1400 New York Ave. NW,
Criminal Division,
Asset Forfeiture and Money Laundering Section
Bond Building, Suite 10100
Washington, DC 20530
ATTN: Dace Krastkalns, Administrative Officer

If you prefer to fax your documents, you can do so at (202) 514-5522. All applications must be received by July 27, 2006. Applications received after that date will not be considered.

Internet Sites: This and other attorney vacancy announcements can be found at http://10.173.2.12/oarm/attvacancies.html

For more information about the Criminal Division and the Counterterrorism Section, visit the Criminal Division Web page at: http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/criminal-home.html

Department Policies: The U.S. Department of Justice is an Equal Opportunity/Reasonable Accommodation Employer. It is the policy of the Department to achieve a drug-free workplace, and the person selected will be required to pass a drug test to screen for illegal drug use. Employment is also contingent upon the satisfactory completion of a background investigation adjudicated by the Department of Justice.

The Department of Justice welcomes and encourages applications from persons with physical and mental disabilities and will reasonably accommodate the needs of those persons. The Department is firmly committed to satisfying its affirmative obligations under the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, to ensure that persons with disabilities have every opportunity to be hired and advanced.

 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: pikey on July 20, 2006, 07:29:06 AM
Now back to my question:

I would like to work for a bank in either trusts or real estate (or maybe even general counsel).  The problem is that they all ask for experienced lawyers.  If anyone knows a good way to get there without working BigLaw for a few years please let me know. 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Freak on July 20, 2006, 07:31:45 AM

I'd never work big law, I have always intended on working for a small firm (less than 10 attys) for 3-5 yrs and then throw out my own shingle (though if I enjoy where I work, I'll stay).



This is what I've begun to think about - if I go into civil litigation (I'm still strongly considering criminal law).
The more I get to know solo practioners the more attractive it seems. I don't like the idea of feast or famine - the idea of not having a steady salary makes me a bit nervous, but I really like the idea of controlling my environment.

It's even easier to go solo in criminal law, you'll have no shortage of clients. I personally detest criminal law, I don't want to deal with scum even to prosecute them.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Freak on July 20, 2006, 07:35:43 AM
Now back to my question:

I would like to work for a bank in either trusts or real estate (or maybe even general counsel).  The problem is that they all ask for experienced lawyers.  If anyone knows a good way to get there without working BigLaw for a few years please let me know. 

Experience, is experience, regardless if it's with biglaw. However, if you wish to work in a big city, the banks will want biglaw experience. Perhaps try working in a smaller city for a few years, then work for a bank in a smaller city which will give you experience to work for a bank, in a larger city.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on July 20, 2006, 07:41:32 AM
If you hang around for two years and get this GS-15 position you are making above 120 (you will have time in grade and will likely have moved 1 GS grade up the lader. Is the extra 30-50k at a firm really worth losing 30 days paid vacation which you are usually forced to take.

Well, as you seem to have acknowledged, you can't make $100k immediately after law school.  So by the time you get 2-3 years of experience (which in actuality usually means 3-5), you will be making upwards of $250k in BIGLAW.  So the pay cut is not insubstantial.  That said, our view is rather skewed: only a small percentage of the people in this country make upwards of $100k.  You will have a pretty high standard of living as a government attorney...they're not poor.  But, relative to your BIGLAW friends, you will be making a lot less.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on July 20, 2006, 07:43:22 AM
Gov't is boring and slow. Everyone seems bored. I need just a little intensity, excitement, something!

Definitely not the case with my section.  These lawyers are doing some incredibly interesting stuff...something we're doing is in the news every day (literally).
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: pikey on July 20, 2006, 08:05:15 AM
Now back to my question:

I would like to work for a bank in either trusts or real estate (or maybe even general counsel).  The problem is that they all ask for experienced lawyers.  If anyone knows a good way to get there without working BigLaw for a few years please let me know. 

Experience, is experience, regardless if it's with biglaw. However, if you wish to work in a big city, the banks will want biglaw experience. Perhaps try working in a smaller city for a few years, then work for a bank in a smaller city which will give you experience to work for a bank, in a larger city.

Are biglaw jobs more manageable/interesting in smaller cities (such as Charlotte)?  And is there any way to gain specialised experience in real estate or trust work in biglaw or other firms soon after graduating for ls?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on July 20, 2006, 08:05:59 AM
Gov't is boring and slow. Everyone seems bored. I need just a little intensity, excitement, something!

Definitely not the case with my section.  These lawyers are doing some incredibly interesting stuff...something we're doing is in the news every day (literally).

damn got sucked in anyway....^this is exactly right...not to mention how many high priced (Harvard, Stanford) recent grads take the Gov route because of loan forgiveness. I mean who do you think is on the other side of the aisle from defense lawyers in these high profile cases..duh. Of course they wont make as much as lawyers in private laws firms initially but many of them work as Govies for 5-10 years get experience and then walk into big law firms as partners or corporations as in-house councel due to the reputation they've created and the connections they have made. also in relation to the original post which started this entire debate...its a excellent alternative in my opinion to the reality that is biglaw. For those of you who do not have much real work experience you will soon find out ( i learned the hard way) that there is no amount of money in the world large enough  if you hate the job you are doing. as far as the old stereotype about government workers they still hold true in some of the lower priority agencies being a veteran the VA comes quickly to mind but certainly not in any of the Justice or Intelligence agencies. in addition 95-100% of white house assistants, executive  secretaries etc. have law degrees.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: THE BLUE SWEATER on July 20, 2006, 08:08:51 AM
Alci, I agree that as time goes on big law attorneys are going to makeing multiple times the govt attorneys but

1) 120K is 120k you are far from broke. Like I said even if your salary is in the 80's you will take home more than 100k because the govt DOES NOT factor in cost of living into their salaries. In addition all bonuses and allowances are TAX FREE. Loan FOrgivess is def worth a cut in salary. You make make 40k less but haveing no loans is def worth it.
2) You are propably going to get more hands on stuff with high profile work simply because the government is understaffed and short on resources.
3) You have to keep that big law job. I cant speak with certainity but I think you may have a little bit more job security around the 5-10 year range than a big law lawyer. In addition promotion potential would probably be higher with the govt from looking at the outside in.
4) Govt loves to hire in house. Govt likes to appoint in house. THis makes getting pigeonholed much more difficult as there are many options to choose from.

5)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Freak on July 20, 2006, 08:09:31 AM
Now back to my question:

I would like to work for a bank in either trusts or real estate (or maybe even general counsel).  The problem is that they all ask for experienced lawyers.  If anyone knows a good way to get there without working BigLaw for a few years please let me know. 

Experience, is experience, regardless if it's with biglaw. However, if you wish to work in a big city, the banks will want biglaw experience. Perhaps try working in a smaller city for a few years, then work for a bank in a smaller city which will give you experience to work for a bank, in a larger city.

Are biglaw jobs more manageable/interesting in smaller cities (such as Charlotte)?  And is there any way to gain specialised experience in real estate or trust work in biglaw or other firms soon after graduating for ls?

I don't know Charlotte. You can specialize easier in a larger firm, but many smaller firms specialize in one practice area alone. Mine solely does PI, plaintiff, mostly car collisions.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: THE BLUE SWEATER on July 20, 2006, 08:11:09 AM
Gov't is boring and slow. Everyone seems bored. I need just a little intensity, excitement, something!

Definitely not the case with my section.  These lawyers are doing some incredibly interesting stuff...something we're doing is in the news every day (literally).

damn got sucked in anyway....^this is exactly right...not to mention how many high priced (Harvard, Stanford) recent grads take the Gov route because of loan forgiveness. I mean who do you think is on the other side of the aisle from defense lawyers in these high profile cases..duh. Of course they wont make as much as lawyers in private laws firms initially but many of them work as Govies for 5-10 years get experience and then walk into big law firms as partners or corporations as in-house councel due to the reputation they've created and the connections they have made. also in relation to the original post which started this entire debate...its a excellent alternative in my opinion to the reality that is biglaw. For those of you who do not have much real work experience you will soon find out ( i learned the hard way) that there is no amount of money in the world large enough  if you hate the job you are doing. as far as the old stereotype about government workers they still hold true in some of the lower priority agencies being a veteran the VA comes quickly to mind but certainly not in any of the Justice or Intelligence agencies. in addition 95-100% of white house assistants, executive  secretaries etc. have law degrees.



Preach.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on July 20, 2006, 08:12:46 AM
Now back to my question:

I would like to work for a bank in either trusts or real estate (or maybe even general counsel).  The problem is that they all ask for experienced lawyers.  If anyone knows a good way to get there without working BigLaw for a few years please let me know. 

Experience, is experience, regardless if it's with biglaw. However, if you wish to work in a big city, the banks will want biglaw experience. Perhaps try working in a smaller city for a few years, then work for a bank in a smaller city which will give you experience to work for a bank, in a larger city.

Are biglaw jobs more manageable/interesting in smaller cities (such as Charlotte)?  And is there any way to gain specialised experience in real estate or trust work in biglaw or other firms soon after graduating for ls?

Technically, BIGLAW only applies to major markets like NYC, DC, ATL (borderline), LA, Chicago.  Charlotte is more Midlaw.  Anyway, Midlaw firms are generally more humane than BIGLAW firms.  With your WE, you can probably set yourself up to go into T&E.  But I doubt too many people here know much about it, so I'd talk to lawyers in the field to get advice.

EDIT: I also suggest doing a search on XO.  I recall some threads about T&E.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on July 20, 2006, 08:15:21 AM
Alci, I agree that as time goes on big law attorneys are going to makeing multiple times the govt attorneys but

1) 120K is 120k you are far from broke. Like I said even if your salary is in the 80's you will take home more than 100k because the govt DOES NOT factor in cost of living into their salaries. In addition all bonuses and allowances are TAX FREE. Loan FOrgivess is def worth a cut in salary. You make make 40k less but haveing no loans is def worth it.
2) You are propably going to get more hands on stuff with high profile work simply because the government is understaffed and short on resources.
3) You have to keep that big law job. I cant speak with certainity but I think you may have a little bit more job security around the 5-10 year range than a big law lawyer. In addition promotion potential would probably be higher with the govt from looking at the outside in.
4) Govt loves to hire in house. Govt likes to appoint in house. THis makes getting pigeonholed much more difficult as there are many options to choose from.

5)

I agree with all of your points (except, possibly, 4...I know of a lot of out-of-house gov't appointments).  I was just saying the pay differential is not as small as you initially suggested.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: THE BLUE SWEATER on July 20, 2006, 08:39:24 AM
It is small for those intitial years except for those who land the best firms. Not everyone is getting a 130k job starting. As far as appointments maybe not the high profile ones. However if you go on any major executive dept. And look at the low and mid level appointees. (I did state the other day) most of hem came from another government position. The exception are the high profile ones.....which goes to the chief executives buddies.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on July 20, 2006, 08:55:55 AM
As far as appointments maybe not the high profile ones. However if you go on any major executive dept. And look at the low and mid level appointees. (I did state the other day) most of hem came from another government position. The exception are the high profile ones.....which goes to the chief executives buddies.

I agree with that.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Einstein on January 10, 2007, 01:38:08 PM
No disrespect becasue I really appreciate that you read something rather than just presented what is essentially your opinion as fact...I have to disagree with this statement government jobs have in my experience which is going on 8 years The Most inclusive and tolerant environment you will find anywhere. Before anybody get on my nerves yes I am sure there is still discrimination somewhere by somebody but I have never had anywhere near the type of problems with race/diversity whatever as I have had in the private sector.

The problem with government jobs is who they attract:

1. People who are too stupid to be working in the private sector
2. Saints who want to make the world a better place
3. People who want to work less
4. People who want power

Most of the people you'll be dealing with fall squarely into catagory #1

I respectfully disagree with this statement. 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 10, 2007, 02:15:27 PM
Everybody who is going to be an associate or who has already worked as a summer associate should come back to post their experiences in this thread. I think it would be not only interesting but informative for those who are convinced that BigLaw is the way to go.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 10, 2007, 02:20:26 PM
Now back to my question:

I would like to work for a bank in either trusts or real estate (or maybe even general counsel).  The problem is that they all ask for experienced lawyers.  If anyone knows a good way to get there without working BigLaw for a few years please let me know. 

Experience, is experience, regardless if it's with biglaw. However, if you wish to work in a big city, the banks will want biglaw experience. Perhaps try working in a smaller city for a few years, then work for a bank in a smaller city which will give you experience to work for a bank, in a larger city.

Are biglaw jobs more manageable/interesting in smaller cities (such as Charlotte)?  And is there any way to gain specialised experience in real estate or trust work in biglaw or other firms soon after graduating for ls?

i don't know about interesting, because smaller markets tend to deal with smaller, more local clients, but the hours are somewhat more manageable. you're looking at billing a couple hundred hours less per year than in a major market. you'll also be taking a paycut, but in my mind, that's usually justified given the COL and the lifestyle benefits you acquire in the tradeoff.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 10, 2007, 02:22:19 PM
Everybody who is going to be an associate or who has already worked as a summer associate should come back to post their experiences in this thread. I think it would be not only interesting but informative for those who are convinced that BigLaw is the way to go.

i've done two biglaw firms and one legal aid internship. willing to answer any questions you might have. going into biglaw next fall, but at a firm i didn't summer with.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on January 10, 2007, 02:30:44 PM
Everybody who is going to be an associate or who has already worked as a summer associate should come back to post their experiences in this thread. I think it would be not only interesting but informative for those who are convinced that BigLaw is the way to go.

i've done two biglaw firms and one legal aid internship. willing to answer any questions you might have. going into biglaw next fall, but at a firm i didn't summer with.

Does that mean you did the 3L OCI?  How did that go over and did you have to explain why you were interviewing as a 3L?

Also, did you truly enjoy your experience?  What market are you going to?  What type of law are you going into?

THanks!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 10, 2007, 02:36:26 PM
Everybody who is going to be an associate or who has already worked as a summer associate should come back to post their experiences in this thread. I think it would be not only interesting but informative for those who are convinced that BigLaw is the way to go.

i've done two biglaw firms and one legal aid internship. willing to answer any questions you might have. going into biglaw next fall, but at a firm i didn't summer with.

I'm roughly in the same boat as you.  Was a summer associate for BigLaw (NYC) this past summer and will be going into BigLaw (NYC) with a different firm this fall, provided I pass the bar (pray for a brother).  I didn't realize how big of a deal it is to come in "blind" to a law firm that you didn't summer for.  I guess some firms base the majority of their
new hire class on their summer associate class. 

But have no fear folks, you have two living examples right here that you do NOT have to be a 2L summer associate at the firm of your choice in order to qualifiy as a full time associate there.  You can come in blind.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 10, 2007, 02:38:38 PM
Everybody who is going to be an associate or who has already worked as a summer associate should come back to post their experiences in this thread. I think it would be not only interesting but informative for those who are convinced that BigLaw is the way to go.

i've done two biglaw firms and one legal aid internship. willing to answer any questions you might have. going into biglaw next fall, but at a firm i didn't summer with.

Does that mean you did the 3L OCI?  How did that go over and did you have to explain why you were interviewing as a 3L?

Also, did you truly enjoy your experience?  What market are you going to?  What type of law are you going into?

THanks!

yes i did 3l oci. many 3l's at my school do this, just to see what their options are before they commit to a certain firm. i think that it's no big deal unless you didn't get an offer from your summer firms. then there's certainly a stigma there that a person would have to overcome. i would think that it would be pretty tough to get any callbacks if you did not have an offer from your summer firm.

i came away from last summer with mixed feelings. i loved one of the firms, but not the city and the opposite was true for the other firm. at the end, i wasn't completely happy with the prospect of going to either one, so i sought out other options.

i am going to a firm in london next fall.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 10, 2007, 02:52:42 PM
Everybody who is going to be an associate or who has already worked as a summer associate should come back to post their experiences in this thread. I think it would be not only interesting but informative for those who are convinced that BigLaw is the way to go.

i've done two biglaw firms and one legal aid internship. willing to answer any questions you might have. going into biglaw next fall, but at a firm i didn't summer with.

Does that mean you did the 3L OCI?  How did that go over and did you have to explain why you were interviewing as a 3L?

Also, did you truly enjoy your experience?  What market are you going to?  What type of law are you going into?

THanks!

The general concensus that I found from friends at other schools as well as my own is that OCI as a 3L is significantly more difficult than OCI as a 2L.  Relatively speaking, firms are more willing to hand out summer associateships than they are to hand out full time associateships.  Additionally, at the 3L OCI level of the game, the firms are by and large looking to fill a specific spot.  "We have an opening in our securities transactions department, what is your experience with securities transactions?"  To which if you reply, "sorry I haven't yet been exposed to securities transactions" then you will likely hear "well thank you for your time."

So firms tend to be very specific during the 3L OCI in who they are looking for.  Not all firms are like this but it appears that the majority are.  At lesat they are in NY, I can't speak for other markets.  During 2L you didn't have to be a specialist in anything, just have decent grades, moot court, law review, ivy league school, whatever gets you in the door.  At the 3L level its a different story.

Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: intent06 on January 10, 2007, 03:14:24 PM
I just recently found out that I have two interviews coming up...one with a govt. agency in DC and one with a BigLaw firm here in Houston.  I have had many job interviews outside of the legal arena prior to law school, but law firms are a new ballgame for me.  Any tips advice as I come face to face with the partners/associates who will be interviewing me?

Thanks for making this thread come back to life!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 10, 2007, 03:29:38 PM
I just recently found out that I have two interviews coming up...one with a govt. agency in DC and one with a BigLaw firm here in Houston.  I have had many job interviews outside of the legal arena prior to law school, but law firms are a new ballgame for me.  Any tips advice as I come face to face with the partners/associates who will be interviewing me?

Thanks for making this thread come back to life!

Law firm interviews are not much different from what you've seen before.  Stick to what you normally do and you should be fine.  Be sure to research the firm, the specific people who will be interviewing you, anything important that they've published, etc.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: EEtoJD on January 10, 2007, 03:40:19 PM
That was pretty sickening to read. This especially hit home:

Quote
Such thinking was less prevalent among those associates who came from wealthy, long-established families. On a presumably unconscious level, the firm understood this, and therefore recruited heavily from among those who were the first in their families to go to college. It wasn't just that lawyers from the outer boroughs were hungrier. Being associated with a famous name meant more to them. It was a bigger part of who they were. In terms of leverage, it gave the firm an extra twist of the wrench.

He's right. I am pretty gung-ho about being associated with big names. I'm trapped before I even begin. Awesome.

I would like to see a more modern version of this essay, though. It sounds like this was mid- to late-80s/early-90s. I wonder if the amount of work and generally bad work environment he describes holds true at IP firms like Kenyon & Kenyon...
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 10, 2007, 04:00:08 PM
I'll preface by saying that I'm not quite sure, but every partner at every IP boutique that I interviewed with (including Kenyon & Kenyon downtown) literally had mulitiple stacks of paper in their offices 4 feet high off the floor. Every single one.  It didn't look like anybody was going home early anytime soon.  All of the assiociates at Kenyon shared a small office with no view and had to lottery after year one (or something like that) to be moved to better offices.  Some of the partners there also had offices similar to those shared by the associates.  But even the partners upstairs still had the stacks of papers that I mentioned before.

If anything, just given the nature of IP law, especially when dealing with patents that take pages upon pages to describe the invention, you're dealing with long hours and crazy amounts of doc review.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on January 10, 2007, 04:03:39 PM
I just recently found out that I have two interviews coming up...one with a govt. agency in DC and one with a BigLaw firm here in Houston.  I have had many job interviews outside of the legal arena prior to law school, but law firms are a new ballgame for me.  Any tips advice as I come face to face with the partners/associates who will be interviewing me?

Thanks for making this thread come back to life!

You'll be fine. One thing to keep in mind is that law firm interviewers tend not to barrage you with a bunch of questions, and you might have to keep the conversation going yourself. I'd had a lot of interviews before law school, but they were usually more about qualifications and less about whether I could keep a conversation going. Make sure to have a lot of questions about the firm in your back pocket in case you get an interviewer who starts with that - some of them do it just to see if you can handle it.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: EEtoJD on January 10, 2007, 04:03:47 PM
I'll preface by saying that I'm not quite sure, but every partner at every IP boutique that I interviewed with (including Kenyon & Kenyon downtown) literally had mulitiple stacks of paper in their offices 4 feet high off the floor. Every single one.  It didn't look like anybody was going home early anytime soon.  All of the assiociates at Kenyon shared a small office with no view and had to lottery after year one (or something like that) to be moved to better offices.  Some of the partners there also had offices similar to those shared by the associates.  But even the partners upstairs still had the stacks of papers that I mentioned before.

If anything, just given the nature of IP law, especially when dealing with patents that take pages upon pages to describe the invention, you're dealing with long hours and crazy amounts of doc review.

Ugh! Well, good to know this early in the game! Thanks. I guess. Bastard.  ;)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 10, 2007, 04:12:01 PM
I'll preface by saying that I'm not quite sure, but every partner at every IP boutique that I interviewed with (including Kenyon & Kenyon downtown) literally had mulitiple stacks of paper in their offices 4 feet high off the floor. Every single one.  It didn't look like anybody was going home early anytime soon.  All of the assiociates at Kenyon shared a small office with no view and had to lottery after year one (or something like that) to be moved to better offices.  Some of the partners there also had offices similar to those shared by the associates.  But even the partners upstairs still had the stacks of papers that I mentioned before.

If anything, just given the nature of IP law, especially when dealing with patents that take pages upon pages to describe the invention, you're dealing with long hours and crazy amounts of doc review.

Ugh! Well, good to know this early in the game! Thanks. I guess. Bastard.  ;)


LOL

Yeah I know I know.  When I was a 1L, somebody tried to sell me on the idea that Patent/IP firms are easier/less work than general firms.  Not true, man.  Not true at all.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 10, 2007, 05:11:48 PM
I just recently found out that I have two interviews coming up...one with a govt. agency in DC and one with a BigLaw firm here in Houston.  I have had many job interviews outside of the legal arena prior to law school, but law firms are a new ballgame for me.  Any tips advice as I come face to face with the partners/associates who will be interviewing me?

Thanks for making this thread come back to life!

i'll cosign on sands' advice, but also add that my best interviews were ones in which the amount of time we spent talking about the firm, law school, the law was about equal with the time we spent talking about other non-legal and non-job-related things. you want to show that you're not just a robot who cranks out legal memos. with very few exceptions, firms want to see that you have a decent personality, that they can put you in a client meeting or in a community event without fearing that you're going to make an ass of yourself. so, by all means, know your *&^% about the firm, your intended practice area, something about your interviewers, but be sure to find ways to demonstrate your interpersonal skills as well.

btw, texas is a very quirky legal market. i clerked there last summer and really felt like an outsider because i was the only summer who wasn't from texas. what are your ties to the region?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Booyakasha2 on January 10, 2007, 06:15:29 PM
I know this migth sound strange, but after reading this, and seeing it first hand at my firm (i work as a paralegal) - I still want it.

Like the article mentioned, I am one of those "first to go to college" kids.  In my family, Ive been the first for many things actually.  First gen American, first to grad college, and soon to be the first to attend law school.  After growing up in near poverty where a cold night and living pay check to pay check were the norm, Id be grateful to have one of those Bigfirm jobs.  I am a product of my past.  Im only one generation removed from living in a third worl-like country and 2 generations removed from a horrific civil war.  Getting paid 6 figs to do document review is fien by me.  Maybe my kids will feel differently, but Ill still be sure to make sure they knwo their roots and that their grandparents sacrificed their adult life to get their father into good schools and a better life. 

Sorry for the diatribe... :P
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: intent06 on January 10, 2007, 06:34:46 PM
I definitely am the King of making up interesting questions to ask interviewers.  I hate asking those standard questions that you can find on Monster or CareerBuilder.  Thank heaven for being an ex-human resources professional!!!

I am a Texas native for sure!!  I have gone to firm receptions and while there were people from out of state schools, they all were from Texas.  One of my interviews is for a position in DC and from what I hear they aren't super interested on your ties to the region likes most NYC firms (just what I have heard).  But I have an answer for the firms/agencies outside of Texas as well.

Sands, you know I am east ooast deep, deep down inside so let's see if I get anymore love from the east coast!! ;D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 10, 2007, 07:02:41 PM
I definitely am the King of making up interesting questions to ask interviewers.  I hate asking those standard questions that you can find on Monster or CareerBuilder.  Thank heaven for being an ex-human resources professional!!!

I am a Texas native for sure!!  I have gone to firm receptions and while there were people from out of state schools, they all were from Texas.  One of my interviews is for a position in DC and from what I hear they aren't super interested on your ties to the region likes most NYC firms (just what I have heard).  But I have an answer for the firms/agencies outside of Texas as well.

Sands, you know I am east ooast deep, deep down inside so let's see if I get anymore love from the east coast!! ;D
sounds like you're all set then. good luck with it!

where would you prefer to be?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: intent06 on January 10, 2007, 07:15:18 PM
Well I am not gung-ho any one city, but I am definitely interested in Houston, DC, NYC, Chicago, and Minneapolis.  I have ties to all except Minneapolis.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 10, 2007, 07:16:49 PM
Well I am not gung-ho any one city, but I am definitely interested in Houston, DC, NYC, Chicago, and Minneapolis.  I have ties to all except Minneapolis.

you'll probably need ties to minneapolis but not to the rest.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on January 10, 2007, 11:13:31 PM
worked for a firm last summer, working for a firm this summer.  For a summer you can't complain too much--they wine and dine you and give you work on their most interesting cases.  That said the work is isolating, but the money and perks makes up for it.

That said, I wouldn't want to do this ish longterm for the world.  All the joys of the summer program are put to a halt once you've signed the papers.  They own you now and they know it. 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 11, 2007, 08:19:44 AM
worked for a firm last summer, working for a firm this summer.  For a summer you can't complain too much--they wine and dine you and give you work on their most interesting cases.  That said the work is isolating, but the money and perks makes up for it.

That said, I wouldn't want to do this ish longterm for the world.  All the joys of the summer program are put to a halt once you've signed the papers.  They own you now and they know it. 

this is basically correct. and it's also the reason why you should pay special attention to what you see during the summer, when they are trying to sweep all the mess under the rug. if you see things that make you uncomfortable, chances are it will be ten times worse when they aren't trying to hide it all from the recruits. don't get so caught up in the wining and dining that you aren't paying attention to the important stuff -- are associates complaining about having too much or not enough to do? did a partner say something inappropriate to you? do the secretaries seem happy? things like that will come to matter once you're hired. and it's your responsibility to pay attention. the summer program is not just for you to sell them on your skills, it's for you to learn what you're getting into and make the right decision.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 11, 2007, 10:44:48 AM
Amen to what both of you said.  You can tell a lot about the real deal of a firm by talking to the secretaries.  Plus the younger associates will usually give you the real deal if you're cool with them.


I know this migth sound strange, but after reading this, and seeing it first hand at my firm (i work as a paralegal) - I still want it.

Like the article mentioned, I am one of those "first to go to college" kids.  In my family, Ive been the first for many things actually.  First gen American, first to grad college, and soon to be the first to attend law school.  After growing up in near poverty where a cold night and living pay check to pay check were the norm, Id be grateful to have one of those Bigfirm jobs.  I am a product of my past.  Im only one generation removed from living in a third worl-like country and 2 generations removed from a horrific civil war.  Getting paid 6 figs to do document review is fien by me.  Maybe my kids will feel differently, but Ill still be sure to make sure they knwo their roots and that their grandparents sacrificed their adult life to get their father into good schools and a better life. 

Sorry for the diatribe... :P

B - From one hustler to another, I feel what you're saying. From the outside looking in BigLaw seems to be the ultimate come up for somebody applying to law school, and $145k in New York, at first glance, seems like the lottery if you've never made that kind of money before.  However, its been said 1000 times but its worth repeating, there are far easier ways to make 6 figs if making 6 figs is your goal.  In other words, if you do go the BigLaw route strictly for the money then you are probably going to hate life and be counting down the days until you leave.  Many of the blue chip associates make about 25 to 35 bucks an hour when you break it down by the amount of time they put into it. Most plumbers make twice that and still go home at 3pm.  Not to discourage you, but just make sure you know what you're getting into, which it sounds like you do.

I think law firms have such a high turnover rate because it seems like both law students and pre-laws alike suffer from this dillusion that working at a law firm is going to be like working at Mickey D's or whatever limited work experience they have had thus far - which is then further exacerbated, as OSA pointed out, by the wining and dining that the law firms put out for the summer associates so that you leave thinking that sh!t is sweet. Then you come back as a full time associate and POW they smack the big d!ck on you.  That's when many cats start to hate their life and start looking for a new line of work with this law degree that they just dropped $100k on in loans.

Personally, I may be one of the few strange legal nerds who actually LIKES litigation and the law in general, so I'm sort of looking forward to this Biglaw experience, keeping in mind that this is only a stepping stone to help me get my own stuff going in the not-so-distant future.  As long as you know wsup from the gate you should be ok.


Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 11, 2007, 11:29:47 AM
Amen to what both of you said.  You can tell a lot about the real deal of a firm by talking to the secretaries.  Plus the younger associates will usually give you the real deal if you're cool with them.


I know this migth sound strange, but after reading this, and seeing it first hand at my firm (i work as a paralegal) - I still want it.

Like the article mentioned, I am one of those "first to go to college" kids.  In my family, Ive been the first for many things actually.  First gen American, first to grad college, and soon to be the first to attend law school.  After growing up in near poverty where a cold night and living pay check to pay check were the norm, Id be grateful to have one of those Bigfirm jobs.  I am a product of my past.  Im only one generation removed from living in a third worl-like country and 2 generations removed from a horrific civil war.  Getting paid 6 figs to do document review is fien by me.  Maybe my kids will feel differently, but Ill still be sure to make sure they knwo their roots and that their grandparents sacrificed their adult life to get their father into good schools and a better life. 

Sorry for the diatribe... :P
  However, its been said 1000 times but its worth repeating, there are far easier ways to make 6 figs if making 6 figs is your goal. 

SERIOUSLY.

this is an often neglected fact. if you don't love the law, BIGLAW is NOT worth it. you will be working a lot. too much. more than a human being should. if you're the happy hour after work, football game on saturday and sunday kind of guy, you should expect to give those things up, at least for the first few years.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Statistic on January 11, 2007, 11:50:18 AM


SERIOUSLY.

this is an often neglected fact. if you don't love the law, BIGLAW is NOT worth it. you will be working a lot. too much. more than a human being should. if you're the happy hour after work, football game on saturday and sunday kind of guy, you should expect to give those things up, at least for the first few years.

academia it is.

Also - what is Lodnon? Spelling mistake or attempt at being cute?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: ananse on January 11, 2007, 12:19:37 PM


SERIOUSLY.

this is an often neglected fact. if you don't love the law, BIGLAW is NOT worth it. you will be working a lot. too much. more than a human being should. if you're the happy hour after work, football game on saturday and sunday kind of guy, you should expect to give those things up, at least for the first few years.

academia it is.


... or find a firm that doesn't think it owns your nights and weekends for 145K (or 300K)... they exist.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Statistic on January 11, 2007, 12:33:19 PM


SERIOUSLY.

this is an often neglected fact. if you don't love the law, BIGLAW is NOT worth it. you will be working a lot. too much. more than a human being should. if you're the happy hour after work, football game on saturday and sunday kind of guy, you should expect to give those things up, at least for the first few years.

academia it is.


... or find a firm that doesn't think it owns your nights and weekends for 145K (or 300K)... they exist.

I actually want to do academia.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on January 11, 2007, 12:49:00 PM


SERIOUSLY.

this is an often neglected fact. if you don't love the law, BIGLAW is NOT worth it. you will be working a lot. too much. more than a human being should. if you're the happy hour after work, football game on saturday and sunday kind of guy, you should expect to give those things up, at least for the first few years.

academia it is.


... or find a firm that doesn't think it owns your nights and weekends for 145K (or 300K)... they exist.

lmao.  this was funny.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 11, 2007, 12:53:00 PM


SERIOUSLY.

this is an often neglected fact. if you don't love the law, BIGLAW is NOT worth it. you will be working a lot. too much. more than a human being should. if you're the happy hour after work, football game on saturday and sunday kind of guy, you should expect to give those things up, at least for the first few years.

academia it is.

Also - what is Lodnon? Spelling mistake or attempt at being cute?

nope, just me being a 'tard. edited. :D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: intent06 on January 11, 2007, 01:14:56 PM
Hate to hijack this thread, but does anyone know anything about public interest fellowships that one can get for unpaid summer clerkships?  Just curious.....
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: EEtoJD on January 11, 2007, 01:15:45 PM

B - From one hustler to another, I feel what you're saying. From the outside looking in BigLaw seems to be the ultimate come up for somebody applying to law school, and $145k in New York, at first glance, seems like the lottery if you've never made that kind of money before.  However, its been said 1000 times but its worth repeating, there are far easier ways to make 6 figs if making 6 figs is your goal.  In other words, if you do go the BigLaw route strictly for the money then you are probably going to hate life and be counting down the days until you leave.  Many of the blue chip associates make about 25 to 35 bucks an hour when you break it down by the amount of time they put into it. Most plumbers make twice that and still go home at 3pm.  Not to discourage you, but just make sure you know what you're getting into, which it sounds like you do.

I think law firms have such a high turnover rate because it seems like both law students and pre-laws alike suffer from this dillusion that working at a law firm is going to be like working at Mickey D's or whatever limited work experience they have had thus far - which is then further exacerbated, as OSA pointed out, by the wining and dining that the law firms put out for the summer associates so that you leave thinking that sh!t is sweet. Then you come back as a full time associate and POW they smack the big d!ck on you.  That's when many cats start to hate their life and start looking for a new line of work with this law degree that they just dropped $100k on in loans.

Personally, I may be one of the few strange legal nerds who actually LIKES litigation and the law in general, so I'm sort of looking forward to this Biglaw experience, keeping in mind that this is only a stepping stone to help me get my own stuff going in the not-so-distant future.  As long as you know wsup from the gate you should be ok.


I usually agree with your comments, but I find the bolded argument to be specious. In order for a plumber, or anyone else at a $30/hr wage, to make $145k/yr (the starting salary in most of biglaw), they would have to work a grip of overtime. Even if they wanted to, they probably couldn't because their employers wouldn't let them.

I agree that if you work in biglaw for the money alone, you're not gonna be happy. Still, you could work in it for a few years to get good experience and move to a more "family-oriented" smaller firm, or like you say, do your own thing.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: EEtoJD on January 11, 2007, 01:17:39 PM


SERIOUSLY.

this is an often neglected fact. if you don't love the law, BIGLAW is NOT worth it. you will be working a lot. too much. more than a human being should. if you're the happy hour after work, football game on saturday and sunday kind of guy, you should expect to give those things up, at least for the first few years.

academia it is.


... or find a firm that doesn't think it owns your nights and weekends for 145K (or 300K)... they exist.

Who? Where?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 11, 2007, 01:24:59 PM
Hate to hijack this thread, but does anyone know anything about public interest fellowships that one can get for unpaid summer clerkships?  Just curious.....

your school might have a grant. also, some firms have a program in which they hire a summer associate that only does public interest or does half public interest and is still eligible for a full-time offer with the firm. i think holland and knight does this. i always confuse the ones that let their summers do it and the ones that have a first-year attorney do public interest full time.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on January 11, 2007, 01:27:47 PM
Hate to hijack this thread, but does anyone know anything about public interest fellowships that one can get for unpaid summer clerkships?  Just curious.....

check out Equal Justice Works
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 11, 2007, 01:29:55 PM
Hate to hijack this thread, but does anyone know anything about public interest fellowships that one can get for unpaid summer clerkships?  Just curious.....

check out Equal Justice Works

i am pretty sure those and the skadden fellowship are post-graduate.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: intent06 on January 11, 2007, 01:36:45 PM
Yea, EJW is for 3L's and post-graduate people.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 11, 2007, 01:39:43 PM
Yea, EJW is for 3L's and post-graduate people.

have you talked to your school's career services?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on January 11, 2007, 01:42:35 PM
Hate to hijack this thread, but does anyone know anything about public interest fellowships that one can get for unpaid summer clerkships?  Just curious.....

check out Equal Justice Works

i am pretty sure those and the skadden fellowship are post-graduate.

or not:
http://info.equaljusticeworks.org/summercorps/profiles2006.asp

http://www.equaljusticeworks.org/summercorpsindex.php
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: intent06 on January 11, 2007, 01:42:55 PM
they are not in at the moment, that's why I was inquiring with you knowledgeable people here!!  I am going to stop by there tomorrow.  My interview went great, but I just want to be prepared just in case everything turns out positively.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 11, 2007, 01:45:35 PM
they are not in at the moment, that's why I was inquiring with you knowledgeable people here!!  I am going to stop by there tomorrow.  My interview went great, but I just want to be prepared just in case everything turns out positively.

what did they ask you in your interview? glad it went well!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: ananse on January 11, 2007, 02:04:28 PM


SERIOUSLY.

this is an often neglected fact. if you don't love the law, BIGLAW is NOT worth it. you will be working a lot. too much. more than a human being should. if you're the happy hour after work, football game on saturday and sunday kind of guy, you should expect to give those things up, at least for the first few years.

academia it is.


... or find a firm that doesn't think it owns your nights and weekends for 145K (or 300K)... they exist.

Who? Where?

Mine. Here  ;).  I'm not kidding.  We have monthly informal "pay day" happy hours that are well attended (often even by people who've left the firm).  We have a send-off party at a restaurant every time someone quits.  We had a beerfest when 100% of our first years passed the bar, and another for 100% attendance to some silly training program.  At least 2x last month I got invited to lunch by two different partners I don't even work with, and they didn't even pitch work.  I've said no to extra work from partners without feeling that I'd be penalized.  I can count on one hand the number of times in 7 months that I've had to work on a weekend, and I've received an apology each time.  And the best part, they'll pick up 100% of my FT law school tab and I don't even expect my life as a "work-study" law student to be unbearable.  Our starting salary is 145K, in NYC with a billable hour target of under 1900.  I don't know anyone who's not met the target for lack of work.  I'm sure we have our negatives too... like not having free soda in the office, no gigantic bonuses, and no person in the bathroom to hand me towels ;D.  We may have some slave drivers who are not as humane but I don't personally know any and haven't heard or any.

I won't out my firm... but these firms are out there... they may not be the Skaddens, Wachtells or Kirklands (I won't work for any of those if you tripled my salary) but they exist. 

Thinking they don't exist is the same mentality that keeps people in law firms that run like sweatshops...
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on January 11, 2007, 02:11:32 PM
"Thinking they don't exist is the same mentality that keeps people in law firms that run like sweatshops..."

And not sharing which firms do have better quality of life only serves to perpetuate that mentality  ::)


Yeah there is a firm out there guys... I swear it (I just can' tell you cause the boogieman will come get you)!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on January 11, 2007, 02:13:11 PM


SERIOUSLY.

this is an often neglected fact. if you don't love the law, BIGLAW is NOT worth it. you will be working a lot. too much. more than a human being should. if you're the happy hour after work, football game on saturday and sunday kind of guy, you should expect to give those things up, at least for the first few years.

academia it is.


... or find a firm that doesn't think it owns your nights and weekends for 145K (or 300K)... they exist.

Who? Where?

Mine. Here  ;).  I'm not kidding.  We have monthly informal "pay day" happy hours that are well attended (often even by people who've left the firm).  We have a send-off party at a restaurant every time someone quits.  We had a beerfest when 100% of our first years passed the bar, and another for 100% attendance to some silly training program.  At least 2x last month I got invited to lunch by two different partners I don't even work with, and they didn't even pitch work.  I've said no to extra work from partners without feeling that I'd be penalized.  I can count on one hand the number of times in 7 months that I've had to work on a weekend, and I've received an apology each time.  And the best part, they'll pick up 100% of my FT law school tab and I don't even expect my life as a "work-study" law student to be unbearable.  Our starting salary is 145K, in NYC with a billable hour target of under 1900.  I don't know anyone who's not met the target for lack of work.  I'm sure we have our negatives too... like not having free soda in the office, no gigantic bonuses, and no person in the bathroom to hand me towels ;D.  We may have some slave drivers who are not as humane but I don't personally know any and haven't heard or any.

I won't out my firm... but these firms are out there... they may not be the Skaddens, Wachtells or Kirklands (I won't work for any of those if you tripled my salary) but they exist. 

Thinking they don't exist is the same mentality that keeps people in law firms that run like sweatshops...

How does your experience differ from, say, a 6th-year associate on the partnership track?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 11, 2007, 02:25:38 PM


SERIOUSLY.

this is an often neglected fact. if you don't love the law, BIGLAW is NOT worth it. you will be working a lot. too much. more than a human being should. if you're the happy hour after work, football game on saturday and sunday kind of guy, you should expect to give those things up, at least for the first few years.

academia it is.


... or find a firm that doesn't think it owns your nights and weekends for 145K (or 300K)... they exist.

Who? Where?

Mine. Here  ;).  I'm not kidding.  We have monthly informal "pay day" happy hours that are well attended (often even by people who've left the firm).  We have a send-off party at a restaurant every time someone quits.  We had a beerfest when 100% of our first years passed the bar, and another for 100% attendance to some silly training program.  At least 2x last month I got invited to lunch by two different partners I don't even work with, and they didn't even pitch work.  I've said no to extra work from partners without feeling that I'd be penalized.  I can count on one hand the number of times in 7 months that I've had to work on a weekend, and I've received an apology each time.  And the best part, they'll pick up 100% of my FT law school tab and I don't even expect my life as a "work-study" law student to be unbearable.  Our starting salary is 145K, in NYC with a billable hour target of under 1900.  I don't know anyone who's not met the target for lack of work.  I'm sure we have our negatives too... like not having free soda in the office, no gigantic bonuses, and no person in the bathroom to hand me towels ;D.  We may have some slave drivers who are not as humane but I don't personally know any and haven't heard or any.

I won't out my firm... but these firms are out there... they may not be the Skaddens, Wachtells or Kirklands (I won't work for any of those if you tripled my salary) but they exist. 

Thinking they don't exist is the same mentality that keeps people in law firms that run like sweatshops...
yes, these firms exist!

i think my firm is pretty good too. since it's not in the US there's not a culture of huge events and lavish spending, but my salary, which is nearly double of NYC market more than makes up for that. there's a nice lady that brings tea twice a day. associates rarely work past 6 and the firm isn't huge on facetime. you have a life and they value that. it's kind of refreshing actually. and i get bonus after just 1500 hrs.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on January 11, 2007, 02:36:18 PM
cost of living is also double that of NYC.  if you are going to the firm I think you are going to they have a lovely new office (have to love the cafe terrace!).  that said, the American team works hard--not New York hours but definitely much harder than their UK counterparts.

I should say both firms I've worked/will be working for definitely are "lifestyle friendly."  But work is work and when it creeps up on you and there is a deadline all the apologies in the word doesn't make up for the fact that you are in the office on the weekend or that you find yourself checking your blackberry constantly.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 11, 2007, 02:47:19 PM
cost of living is also double that of NYC.  if you are going to the firm I think you are going to they have a lovely new office (have to love the cafe terrace!).  that said, the American team works hard--not New York hours but definitely much harder than their UK counterparts.

I should say both firms I've worked/will be working for definitely are "lifestyle friendly."  But work is work and when it creeps up on you and there is a deadline all the apologies in the word doesn't make up for the fact that you are in the office on the weekend or that you find yourself checking your blackberry constantly.

not quite double, but you make a valid point. still, i think if you live frugally, making that much money you can save a lot, regardless of where you are in the world.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: intent06 on January 11, 2007, 03:51:25 PM
they are not in at the moment, that's why I was inquiring with you knowledgeable people here!!  I am going to stop by there tomorrow.  My interview went great, but I just want to be prepared just in case everything turns out positively.

what did they ask you in your interview? glad it went well!

She asked me why I was interested in coming to the agency and what I could contribute to the organization.  She also asked about my writing and research skills.  The summer clerks end up doing about 20-25 appellate reviews/decisions so I was excited about that.  Overall, I think she was impressed and now I am about to forward her my closed legal memo from last semester as my writing sample.

Sounds like a great opp for an unpaid position.  Now its time to get ready for the BIGLAW firms and see what they are going to talk about :)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 11, 2007, 06:11:22 PM

B - From one hustler to another, I feel what you're saying. From the outside looking in BigLaw seems to be the ultimate come up for somebody applying to law school, and $145k in New York, at first glance, seems like the lottery if you've never made that kind of money before.  However, its been said 1000 times but its worth repeating, there are far easier ways to make 6 figs if making 6 figs is your goal.  In other words, if you do go the BigLaw route strictly for the money then you are probably going to hate life and be counting down the days until you leave.  Many of the blue chip associates make about 25 to 35 bucks an hour when you break it down by the amount of time they put into it. Most plumbers make twice that and still go home at 3pm.  Not to discourage you, but just make sure you know what you're getting into, which it sounds like you do.

I think law firms have such a high turnover rate because it seems like both law students and pre-laws alike suffer from this dillusion that working at a law firm is going to be like working at Mickey D's or whatever limited work experience they have had thus far - which is then further exacerbated, as OSA pointed out, by the wining and dining that the law firms put out for the summer associates so that you leave thinking that sh!t is sweet. Then you come back as a full time associate and POW they smack the big d!ck on you.  That's when many cats start to hate their life and start looking for a new line of work with this law degree that they just dropped $100k on in loans.

Personally, I may be one of the few strange legal nerds who actually LIKES litigation and the law in general, so I'm sort of looking forward to this Biglaw experience, keeping in mind that this is only a stepping stone to help me get my own stuff going in the not-so-distant future.  As long as you know wsup from the gate you should be ok.


I usually agree with your comments, but I find the bolded argument to be specious. In order for a plumber, or anyone else at a $30/hr wage, to make $145k/yr (the starting salary in most of biglaw), they would have to work a grip of overtime. Even if they wanted to, they probably couldn't because their employers wouldn't let them.


Ah, but you'll notice that I never claimed that plumbers can make 145k. (union regulations only allow so many hours)  I just pointed out that many get paid 60/70 dollars per hour.  Thus, the compensation for their time is better rewarded on an hourly basis than many law firm associates.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: intent06 on January 11, 2007, 06:12:59 PM
So are you saying that I should drop out and go to trade school????  Oh no, what have I done!!!!! lmao :D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: EEtoJD on January 11, 2007, 06:20:09 PM

Ah, but you'll notice that I never claimed that plumbers can make 145k. (union regulations only allow so many hours)  I just pointed out that many get paid 60/70 dollars per hour.  Thus, the compensation for their time is better rewarded on an hourly basis than many law firm associates.

Very true. I was just saying that it's not really possible for them to make that much money... you said that there are easier ways to earn $100k+. While this is true, I think that biglaw is likely the quickest (with the exception of i-banking) and most secure (unlike i-banking) route to this kind of money. Hell, I'd eventually make that much as an EE, but not after at least my Master's and about five years of experience (or Ph.D. and a year or two, either way) -- and there's a ceiling in these professions that lawyers can cross more easily (without an MBA, that is).

Of course, if you're just thinking about the money, you're a soulless, money-grubbling piece of slime anyway, so it sucks to be you (not you, people like this).  ;D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 11, 2007, 06:20:33 PM


SERIOUSLY.

this is an often neglected fact. if you don't love the law, BIGLAW is NOT worth it. you will be working a lot. too much. more than a human being should. if you're the happy hour after work, football game on saturday and sunday kind of guy, you should expect to give those things up, at least for the first few years.

academia it is.


... or find a firm that doesn't think it owns your nights and weekends for 145K (or 300K)... they exist.

Who? Where?

Mine. Here  ;).  I'm not kidding.  We have monthly informal "pay day" happy hours that are well attended (often even by people who've left the firm).  We have a send-off party at a restaurant every time someone quits.  We had a beerfest when 100% of our first years passed the bar, and another for 100% attendance to some silly training program.  At least 2x last month I got invited to lunch by two different partners I don't even work with, and they didn't even pitch work.  I've said no to extra work from partners without feeling that I'd be penalized.  I can count on one hand the number of times in 7 months that I've had to work on a weekend, and I've received an apology each time.  And the best part, they'll pick up 100% of my FT law school tab and I don't even expect my life as a "work-study" law student to be unbearable.  Our starting salary is 145K, in NYC with a billable hour target of under 1900.  I don't know anyone who's not met the target for lack of work.  I'm sure we have our negatives too... like not having free soda in the office, no gigantic bonuses, and no person in the bathroom to hand me towels ;D.  We may have some slave drivers who are not as humane but I don't personally know any and haven't heard or any.

I won't out my firm... but these firms are out there... they may not be the Skaddens, Wachtells or Kirklands (I won't work for any of those if you tripled my salary) but they exist. 

Thinking they don't exist is the same mentality that keeps people in law firms that run like sweatshops...
yes, these firms exist!

i think my firm is pretty good too. since it's not in the US there's not a culture of huge events and lavish spending, but my salary, which is nearly double of NYC market more than makes up for that. there's a nice lady that brings tea twice a day. associates rarely work past 6 and the firm isn't huge on facetime. you have a life and they value that. it's kind of refreshing actually. and i get bonus after just 1500 hrs.

True, there are many "mid sized" to slightly "large" sized firms in NYC that break away from the norm, but the norm for most is still 2100 billable hours if you're talking about $145k.

Our firm only requires 1900 as the min and kicks in bonuses for every 100 hours thereafter, which is pretty cool IMO.  But I haven't heard of too many that go under 1900 and maintain $145k.  (not to say they don't exist)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: intent06 on January 11, 2007, 06:25:56 PM
Congrats Sands....I was in the harsh 1L trenches so I haven't been around much to congratulate you on your job offer.  So...Congrats Sands!!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: ananse on January 11, 2007, 08:03:10 PM


SERIOUSLY.

this is an often neglected fact. if you don't love the law, BIGLAW is NOT worth it. you will be working a lot. too much. more than a human being should. if you're the happy hour after work, football game on saturday and sunday kind of guy, you should expect to give those things up, at least for the first few years.

academia it is.


... or find a firm that doesn't think it owns your nights and weekends for 145K (or 300K)... they exist.

Who? Where?

Mine. Here  ;).  I'm not kidding.  We have monthly informal "pay day" happy hours that are well attended (often even by people who've left the firm).  We have a send-off party at a restaurant every time someone quits.  We had a beerfest when 100% of our first years passed the bar, and another for 100% attendance to some silly training program.  At least 2x last month I got invited to lunch by two different partners I don't even work with, and they didn't even pitch work.  I've said no to extra work from partners without feeling that I'd be penalized.  I can count on one hand the number of times in 7 months that I've had to work on a weekend, and I've received an apology each time.  And the best part, they'll pick up 100% of my FT law school tab and I don't even expect my life as a "work-study" law student to be unbearable.  Our starting salary is 145K, in NYC with a billable hour target of under 1900.  I don't know anyone who's not met the target for lack of work.  I'm sure we have our negatives too... like not having free soda in the office, no gigantic bonuses, and no person in the bathroom to hand me towels ;D.  We may have some slave drivers who are not as humane but I don't personally know any and haven't heard or any.

I won't out my firm... but these firms are out there... they may not be the Skaddens, Wachtells or Kirklands (I won't work for any of those if you tripled my salary) but they exist. 

Thinking they don't exist is the same mentality that keeps people in law firms that run like sweatshops...

How does your experience differ from, say, a 6th-year associate on the partnership track?

Alci, I don't really know, but I guess they'd be less enthusiastic. Not really sure what it takes to make stay partner at my firm... I figured I'd start caring once I was done with law school.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on January 11, 2007, 08:12:32 PM
Exactly.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: ananse on January 11, 2007, 09:08:25 PM
Exactly.

Well, I didn't think this discussion was limited to the lifestyles of 6th year associates on partnertrack...  How many of those make 145K in NYC? It'd be unreasonable to expect that you can coast your way to partnership anywhere; I don't think I gave that impression with my post. 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on January 11, 2007, 09:20:54 PM
Exactly.

Well, I didn't think this discussion was limited to the lifestyles of 6th year associates on partnertrack...  How many of those make 145K in NYC? It'd be unreasonable to expect that you can coast your way to partnership anywhere; I don't think I gave that impression with my post. 

You gave the impression that your firm didn't work people as hard as other firms.  While perhaps true, I think your impression is clouded by the fact that you're not actually an associate trying to make his way up to partner and dealing with the concomitant pressures.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: ananse on January 12, 2007, 07:18:32 AM
Exactly.

Well, I didn't think this discussion was limited to the lifestyles of 6th year associates on partnertrack...  How many of those make 145K in NYC? It'd be unreasonable to expect that you can coast your way to partnership anywhere; I don't think I gave that impression with my post. 

You gave the impression that your firm didn't work people as hard as other firms.  While perhaps true, I think your impression is clouded by the fact that you're not actually an associate trying to make his way up to partner and dealing with the concomitant pressures.

Alci, you make a valid point.  However, it's also possible that that pressure, while it might exist, isn't pervasive here.  That I've been doing the work of an associate for several months (and will graduate LS as a mid-year second year associate if I stay) and haven't felt any pressure to look into what it takes to make partner (up until now, thanks to you) shows that "partnership-or-bust" is not the general vibe around here.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 12, 2007, 08:50:34 AM

Ah, but you'll notice that I never claimed that plumbers can make 145k. (union regulations only allow so many hours)  I just pointed out that many get paid 60/70 dollars per hour.  Thus, the compensation for their time is better rewarded on an hourly basis than many law firm associates.

Very true. I was just saying that it's not really possible for them to make that much money... you said that there are easier ways to earn $100k+. While this is true, I think that biglaw is likely the quickest (with the exception of i-banking) and most secure (unlike i-banking) route to this kind of money. Hell, I'd eventually make that much as an EE, but not after at least my Master's and about five years of experience (or Ph.D. and a year or two, either way) -- and there's a ceiling in these professions that lawyers can cross more easily (without an MBA, that is).



I'd have to strongly disagree with that proposition.  I think that's the common misconception that's shared by a lot of undergrads and pre-laws that drives the masses to enter law school.  Law School is perceived as this "get rich quick" scheme or something that anybody with a degree can jump into in order to significantly increase their financial status.

Don't get it twisted, BigLaw makes you upper middle class at best, but not rich by any stretch of the imagination.  Especially in New York City.

As far as being the quickest path to this level of financial status, I can easily point to a few of my friends from back home who have started their own businesses while working for somebody else during the day, and one who has chipped away at the residential real estate market with only a 35k/yr salary who both started around the same time as I started law school - both of whom have since quit their day jobs and are clearing 10 to 15k per month.  Straight chillin. (in the mid-west I might add where cost of living is nada)  No law school loans, no med school loans, no MBA loans to worry about.  No federal or state income tax taking 33% of their checks each month.   Whatever they make is whatever they make.  Truth be told that's where I'm trying to be.  I'm using the law firm to get there.

You brought up stability - As long as you're working for somebody else, regardless of your profession, your financial status is never stable.  You can be fired at any time for no reason at all by your employer. Law firms are no exception.  Associates get canned all the time for a multitude of reasons, or, for no reason at all.  At will employment, baby.  Gotta love it.

So fastest track?  Not hardly.  Most stable?  Not really.  If we limit the scope of our debate to the fastest and most stable among professional/graduate degrees only then I'll concede that the JD's earning potential is usually superior to  that of the MBA, but below that of the MD; and the JD is typically more stable than the MBA but typically less stable than the MD.  But that's if we limit our scope to only consider graduate degrees.  Outside of that, regardless of what degree we all run out and get, that tends to, at best, make us the #1 person to work for somebody else's business/partnership/corporation who probably didn't even finish college (vis a vie Bill Gates).

Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: EEtoJD on January 12, 2007, 11:26:55 AM

Ah, but you'll notice that I never claimed that plumbers can make 145k. (union regulations only allow so many hours)  I just pointed out that many get paid 60/70 dollars per hour.  Thus, the compensation for their time is better rewarded on an hourly basis than many law firm associates.

Very true. I was just saying that it's not really possible for them to make that much money... you said that there are easier ways to earn $100k+. While this is true, I think that biglaw is likely the quickest (with the exception of i-banking) and most secure (unlike i-banking) route to this kind of money. Hell, I'd eventually make that much as an EE, but not after at least my Master's and about five years of experience (or Ph.D. and a year or two, either way) -- and there's a ceiling in these professions that lawyers can cross more easily (without an MBA, that is).



I'd have to strongly disagree with that proposition.  I think that's the common misconception that's shared by a lot of undergrads and pre-laws that drives the masses to enter law school.  Law School is perceived as this "get rich quick" scheme or something that anybody with a degree can jump into in order to significantly increase their financial status.

Don't get it twisted, BigLaw makes you upper middle class at best, but not rich by any stretch of the imagination.  Especially in New York City.

As far as being the quickest path to this level of financial status, I can easily point to a few of my friends from back home who have started their own businesses while working for somebody else during the day, and one who has chipped away at the residential real estate market with only a 35k/yr salary who both started around the same time as I started law school - both of whom have since quit their day jobs and are clearing 10 to 15k per month.  Straight chillin. (in the mid-west I might add where cost of living is nada)  No law school loans, no med school loans, no MBA loans to worry about.  No federal or state income tax taking 33% of their checks each month.   Whatever they make is whatever they make.  Truth be told that's where I'm trying to be.  I'm using the law firm to get there.

You brought up stability - As long as you're working for somebody else, regardless of your profession, your financial status is never stable.  You can be fired at any time for no reason at all by your employer. Law firms are no exception.  Associates get canned all the time for a multitude of reasons, or, for no reason at all.  At will employment, baby.  Gotta love it.

So fastest track?  Not hardly.  Most stable?  Not really.  If we limit the scope of our debate to the fastest and most stable among professional/graduate degrees only then I'll concede that the JD's earning potential is usually superior to  that of the MBA, but below that of the MD; and the JD is typically more stable than the MBA but typically less stable than the MD.  But that's if we limit our scope to only consider graduate degrees.  Outside of that, regardless of what degree we all run out and get, that tends to, at best, make us the #1 person to work for somebody else's business/partnership/corporation who probably didn't even finish college (vis a vie Bill Gates).

Just my 2 cents.

I don't think I made myself clear. I didn't mean that it is the quickest and most stable way. I meant that of the ways that are both quick and stable to make that kind of money, biglaw is tops.

Stability is a condition that depends on many factors. The strength of the economy, how well the industry you're in is doing (over time), if you're not a @#!*-up, etc. The most stable positions are tenured professorships (once you get your tenure, of course). You'd have to murder the president of the university to be fired, and even then, you'd probably get a verbal warning first, so you can murder the next one also. Then they'd say, "Oh, well, once was pretty bad. But twice? I think we're going to have to give you a written warning this time, bub!" Working for yourself, especially when you first start, is never "stable". You're pretty much completely responsible for your own salary, and that salary can fluctuate, especially if you're not established.

Quickest is a relative term. What I said was, "biglaw is likely the quickest... route to this kind of money." No where did I imply that this kind of money == rich. Although eight years to the possibility of being pretty damn well off is fairly quick. But I digress. Your evidence is anecdotal, and for each of your friends that's made it, there are probably (and I'm sure I'm getting this number wrong because I'm too lazy to look it up, but this is probably a rosy view) fifty people who don't. In fact, for each of your friends that's doing so well, I can point to a friend of mine who has not made it.

At will employment? That's just the way employment works. Especially in right-to-work states (where I live), they can just tap you on the shoulder and say, "See ya." But they usually don't. Employees don't generally like to see people they've put a bunch of money into training and hiring get canned unless there's a good reason - or, yes, unless they want to replace you with cheaper labor. That's why you work very hard to make yourself indispensable. Being employed by an established company is usually less risky than going into business on your own.

"Get rich quick", no way. Besides, with the exception of being the luckiest bastard on earth and winning Megabucks your first time to Vegas on the first twenty bucks you've ever spent on gambling (and these people are always, without exception, at least seventy-five years old with and oxygen tank in one hand and a cigarette in the other), there is no such thing.

So, back to what I originally said... imagine a matrix that values each possible profession on "stability" and "how fast you can make $150k", biglaw would probably have the highest combined number. Biglaw; not other areas of law, only biglaw. MBA's have a much tougher time, as there isn't a well-defined sector called bigbusiness that generally guarantees a certain salary range - it depends on the company, the industry, your experience, etc. MD's take seven more years than JD's to actually start making real money. I-banking is almost completely dependent on the strength of the economy, and I don't think that can ever be considered "stable". Being your own boss is a very risky venture. Most people fail. For people like us, though, this will be less risky because we'll only go for it when we think we're established enough, have the right contacts and resources, and have a solid business plan. I plan to go into business for myself just as you do. In fact, I want two businesses, so double the risk/reward for me.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 12, 2007, 12:22:39 PM

So, back to what I originally said... imagine a matrix that values each possible profession on "stability" and "how fast you can make $150k", biglaw would probably have the highest combined number. Biglaw; not other areas of law, only biglaw. MBA's have a much tougher time, as there isn't a well-defined sector called bigbusiness that generally guarantees a certain salary range - it depends on the company, the industry, your experience, etc. MD's take seven more years than JD's to actually start making real money. I-banking is almost completely dependent on the strength of the economy, and I don't think that can ever be considered "stable". Being your own boss is a very risky venture. Most people fail. For people like us, though, this will be less risky because we'll only go for it when we think we're established enough, have the right contacts and resources, and have a solid business plan. I plan to go into business for myself just as you do. In fact, I want two businesses, so double the risk/reward for me.


I feel what you're saying, but your entire analysis presupposes one minor detail that unravels the conclusion that you arrive at concerning BigLaw - that is, Biglaw itself is NO guarantee.  In fact, the vast MAJORITY of law students never see the promised land of BigLaw straight out of law school.  And for those that end up there, you are overlooking the fact that they must take alternative routes for several years before Biglaw will consider them, thereby detracting from your "quickest & most stable" conclusion of Biglaw.

For those who are lucky, a year or two at a respectable clerkship after graduating from law school will buy their price of admission into the $145k/yr associate position of Biglaw.  But don't be too hasty in assuming that BigLaw is the norm, because it is not the norm.  If you go to Columbia, sure, its the norm.  But there are somewhere around 188, 189, let's just call it an even 190, ABA approved law schools in this country.  14 of which, as I'm sure you're well aware by now, have the ability to be constant feeders into BigLaw.  The other 176 have varying degrees of success at sending their graduates directly into BigLaw.  Sure, many graduates at T1, T2, and T3 law schools enjoy the benefit of working at "A" law firm directly out of law school, but don't mistake "A" law firm with "Big" law.  There are 10's if not 100's of thousands of law firms out there who will gladly take you and your JD and promptly pay you about 50k/yr and call it a day. Maybe $70k if you're lucky.  This is reality for most.  I can take you to several law schools right now in the NYC area where over half the class of '07 is still looking for employment. I'm not kidding.

If there's one thing I wish somebody would have told me before I jumped into this law school experience is that BigLaw is not guaranteed at all for the non-T14 law students.  You really have to work at it and rise above the curve to even have a chance of having chance of having a chance.  I think a lot of lay people, myself included before I got here, have a very firm conviction (based perhaps on the movies/TV?) that "if you go to law school, you automatically come out making the big bucks."  Sorry to disappoint. Law is not that profession.  Is it possible?  Sure.  Is it automatic?  Not usually.  We are a profession where you can come out making $40k or $140k, all depending on what school you're at, how you did at that school, did you make law review, did you make moot court, is your GPA above 3.5, your school's regional rep, national rep, area of expertise (if any), connections of alumni, etc.  So many variables.

AND THEN...

Let's just say you do get into BigLaw, we could go on for days about all the expenses that come along with that. But that may be a different debate for a different day.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: EEtoJD on January 12, 2007, 12:29:40 PM
Everything you say is true, but that's not what I meant. I'm saying for those that make it directly to biglaw, it is the quickest and most stable. You can go to Wharton, get an MBA, but there is still no obvious route like biglaw.

My assumption presupposes that we're talking about people who are able to go directly to biglaw, just as it presupposes we're talking about the best of the MBA's, MD's, whatever. Sorry that I didn't clarify.

The expenses, yeah. They suck. But no matter what, one thing is for sure: I'll make more money as a lawyer than I ever could have as an engineer. The ceiling for even the best EE's is about what a fifth-year associate in biglaw makes. (Again, I'm assuming that I'll make it to biglaw).
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 12, 2007, 12:43:07 PM
Everything you say is true, but that's not what I meant. I'm saying for those that make it directly to biglaw, it is the quickest and most stable. You can go to Wharton, get an MBA, but there is still no obvious route like biglaw.

My assumption presupposes that we're talking about people who are able to go directly to biglaw, just as it presupposes we're talking about the best of the MBA's, MD's, whatever. Sorry that I didn't clarify.

The expenses, yeah. They suck. But no matter what, one thing is for sure: I'll make more money as a lawyer than I ever could have as an engineer. The ceiling for even the best EE's is about what a fifth-year associate in biglaw makes. (Again, I'm assuming that I'll make it to biglaw).

As an engineer myself, please allow me to say "you damn right!"

I remember they showed us what the regional Vice Presidents made in our firm during our orientation. There are 42 of them in the whole engineering firm of about 5,000 employees nationwide.  They were each making about $110k/yr.  It took them about 25 years to get there. 

I remember thinking to myself "shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit, damn that. Ya'll some suckas! Straight up. Do you get a free pocket protector with that?"
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Eugene Young on January 12, 2007, 12:46:49 PM
Everything you say is true, but that's not what I meant. I'm saying for those that make it directly to biglaw, it is the quickest and most stable. You can go to Wharton, get an MBA, but there is still no obvious route like biglaw.

My assumption presupposes that we're talking about people who are able to go directly to biglaw, just as it presupposes we're talking about the best of the MBA's, MD's, whatever. Sorry that I didn't clarify.

The expenses, yeah. They suck. But no matter what, one thing is for sure: I'll make more money as a lawyer than I ever could have as an engineer. The ceiling for even the best EE's is about what a fifth-year associate in biglaw makes. (Again, I'm assuming that I'll make it to biglaw).

As an engineer myself, please allow me to say "you damn right!"

I remember they showed us what the regional Vice Presidents made in our firm during our orientation. There are 42 of them in the whole engineering firm of about 5,000 employees nationwide.  They were each making about $110k/yr.  It took them about 25 years to get there. 

I remember thinking to myself "shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit, damn that. Ya'll some suckas! Straight up. Do you get a free pocket protector with that?"


or as an accountant...even with a CPA (unless you're partner at a Big 4 firm)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: intent06 on January 12, 2007, 12:48:42 PM
I'll take BIGLaw for $400 Alex!!!!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: EEtoJD on January 12, 2007, 12:49:14 PM
Everything you say is true, but that's not what I meant. I'm saying for those that make it directly to biglaw, it is the quickest and most stable. You can go to Wharton, get an MBA, but there is still no obvious route like biglaw.

My assumption presupposes that we're talking about people who are able to go directly to biglaw, just as it presupposes we're talking about the best of the MBA's, MD's, whatever. Sorry that I didn't clarify.

The expenses, yeah. They suck. But no matter what, one thing is for sure: I'll make more money as a lawyer than I ever could have as an engineer. The ceiling for even the best EE's is about what a fifth-year associate in biglaw makes. (Again, I'm assuming that I'll make it to biglaw).

As an engineer myself, please allow me to say "you damn right!"

I remember they showed us what the regional Vice Presidents made in our firm during our orientation. There are 42 of them in the whole engineering firm of about 5,000 employees nationwide.  They were each making about $110k/yr.  It took them about 25 years to get there. 

I remember thinking to myself "shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit, damn that. Ya'll some suckas! Straight up. Do you get a free pocket protector with that?"


Holy *&^%, that's hilarious!  :D That is one long *&^%.

What type of engineer are you? Oh, BTW, where do you go?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 12, 2007, 01:22:02 PM
Architectural Engineer, licensed in KS & MO.

Univ. of Kansas undergrad. (Go Jayhawks!!!)

Now I'm a lowly 3L over here at Rutgers - Newark.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: EEtoJD on January 12, 2007, 02:11:15 PM
Architectural Engineer, licensed in KS & MO.

Univ. of Kansas undergrad. (Go Jayhawks!!!)

Now I'm a lowly 3L over here at Rutgers - Newark.

Interesting. Are you planning on going into IP law? BTW, how do you like Rutgers?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 12, 2007, 03:43:17 PM
Architectural Engineer, licensed in KS & MO.

Univ. of Kansas undergrad. (Go Jayhawks!!!)

Now I'm a lowly 3L over here at Rutgers - Newark.

shush! you ain't lowly! >:(
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 12, 2007, 04:05:07 PM
Architectural Engineer, licensed in KS & MO.

Univ. of Kansas undergrad. (Go Jayhawks!!!)

Now I'm a lowly 3L over here at Rutgers - Newark.

Interesting. Are you planning on going into IP law? BTW, how do you like Rutgers?

Not if I can help it.  The beauty of the firm that I'm heading to is that I don't have to declare a particular practice group for the first 3 years.  I plan to pretty much just sample from the various litigation departments they have there  I might end up doing some IP stuff but probably the soft IP. Trying to stay away from patents (mad boring).

Rutgers is peace.  I love it here. My classmates are my family, we do everything together.  I had a birthday a few months ago and they all got together and threw me a party. It has been a blessing to be in this type of environment during this 3 year hazing process.


Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 12, 2007, 04:24:10 PM
Architectural Engineer, licensed in KS & MO.

Univ. of Kansas undergrad. (Go Jayhawks!!!)

Now I'm a lowly 3L over here at Rutgers - Newark.

shush! you ain't lowly! >:(


I will be when that Bar gets a hold of me.  You too.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 12, 2007, 04:25:37 PM
Architectural Engineer, licensed in KS & MO.

Univ. of Kansas undergrad. (Go Jayhawks!!!)

Now I'm a lowly 3L over here at Rutgers - Newark.

shush! you ain't lowly! >:(


I will be when that Bar gets a hold of me.  You too.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: EEtoJD on January 12, 2007, 04:26:04 PM
Architectural Engineer, licensed in KS & MO.

Univ. of Kansas undergrad. (Go Jayhawks!!!)

Now I'm a lowly 3L over here at Rutgers - Newark.

Interesting. Are you planning on going into IP law? BTW, how do you like Rutgers?

Not if I can help it.  The beauty of the firm that I'm heading to is that I don't have to declare a particular practice group for the first 3 years.  I plan to pretty much just sample from the various litigation departments they have there  I might end up doing some IP stuff but probably the soft IP. Trying to stay away from patents (mad boring).

Rutgers is peace.  I love it here. My classmates are my family, we do everything together.  I had a birthday a few months ago and they all got together and threw me a party. It has been a blessing to be in this type of environment during this 3 year hazing process.


Letting you sample sounds sweet. Glad to hear that the environment is good at Rutgers. You sound like a laid back guy, I hope there are some people like you in my class.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 12, 2007, 04:26:21 PM
Architectural Engineer, licensed in KS & MO.

Univ. of Kansas undergrad. (Go Jayhawks!!!)

Now I'm a lowly 3L over here at Rutgers - Newark.

shush! you ain't lowly! >:(


I will be when that Bar gets a hold of me.  You too.
@#!* THAT!  i am passing. i have to. no 250k/year for me if i don't.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 12, 2007, 04:28:22 PM
speaking of the bar, i don't know what to do. i don't really want to pay to live in new york while i am taking barbri, but i can't get a course here in tampa. there's a tentative one in atl that i might take. do you think there's any advantage whatsoever in studying for it in nyc?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: teamcanada on January 12, 2007, 04:32:06 PM

The ceiling for even the best EE's is about what a fifth-year associate in biglaw makes. (Again, I'm assuming that I'll make it to biglaw).
[/quote]

how much does a 5th year associate in biglaw make?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 12, 2007, 04:34:36 PM

The ceiling for even the best EE's is about what a fifth-year associate in biglaw makes. (Again, I'm assuming that I'll make it to biglaw).

how much does a 5th year associate in biglaw make?
[/quote]
it REALLY depends on the firm. the base salaries as well as the bonus structures are very divergent this far along the path to partnership. some firms have completely discretionary bonuses, some have bonuses based solely on the number of hours billed, but i think most are some combination of the two. this information is available on some websites (greedy associates, maybe?) but it tends to be relatively dated.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: EEtoJD on January 12, 2007, 04:35:32 PM

The ceiling for even the best EE's is about what a fifth-year associate in biglaw makes. (Again, I'm assuming that I'll make it to biglaw).

how much does a 5th year associate in biglaw make?
[/quote]

Using Skadden for an example, $200k w/out bonus.

EDIT: LIke k-sush... err, London Bound, said, this is probably dated. But this is about what I was thinking for ceiling.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 12, 2007, 04:37:03 PM
Architectural Engineer, licensed in KS & MO.

Univ. of Kansas undergrad. (Go Jayhawks!!!)

Now I'm a lowly 3L over here at Rutgers - Newark.

shush! you ain't lowly! >:(


I will be when that Bar gets a hold of me.  You too.
@#!* THAT!  i am passing. i have to. no 250k/year for me if i don't.

Oh I have no doubt that we're going to pass. I'm just talking about the process of 2 months of straight of studying 7 days a week leading up to the bar.  That's going to suck I think....ummm....yeah, that's going to suck.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 12, 2007, 04:38:44 PM
Architectural Engineer, licensed in KS & MO.

Univ. of Kansas undergrad. (Go Jayhawks!!!)

Now I'm a lowly 3L over here at Rutgers - Newark.

shush! you ain't lowly! >:(


I will be when that Bar gets a hold of me.  You too.
@#!* THAT!  i am passing. i have to. no 250k/year for me if i don't.

Oh I have no doubt that we're going to pass. I'm just talking about the process of 2 months of straight of studying 7 days a week leading up to the bar.  That's going to suck I think....ummm....yeah, that's going to suck.

i don't know HOW to study that much.  i never have. i guess your advantage is that you went to a school that actually required you to study!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 12, 2007, 04:42:29 PM

The ceiling for even the best EE's is about what a fifth-year associate in biglaw makes. (Again, I'm assuming that I'll make it to biglaw).

how much does a 5th year associate in biglaw make?

Using Skadden for an example, $200k w/out bonus.

EDIT: LIke k-sush... err, London Bound, said, this is probably dated. But this is about what I was thinking for ceiling.
[/quote]

Bruh what EE have you ever heard of that makes anything close to $200k per year??  Chem E's and Computer E's are still the highest paid engineers coming straight out of undergrad and they're not making half that.  I know you were talking about ceilings but I ain't even heard of a ceiling anywhere near that high for engineers.  Ceiling for Civ E's and Arch E's is about $120k/yr, and that's after about 20 to 30 years.  Engineering is one of those majors where you beat all of your college buddies coming right out of the gate because we tend to start higher than most other bachelor's degrees, but the pay goes up VERY slowly.  Like 1 to 2% pay increases every year type slow.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 12, 2007, 04:49:16 PM
Architectural Engineer, licensed in KS & MO.

Univ. of Kansas undergrad. (Go Jayhawks!!!)

Now I'm a lowly 3L over here at Rutgers - Newark.

shush! you ain't lowly! >:(


I will be when that Bar gets a hold of me.  You too.
@#!* THAT!  i am passing. i have to. no 250k/year for me if i don't.

Oh I have no doubt that we're going to pass. I'm just talking about the process of 2 months of straight of studying 7 days a week leading up to the bar.  That's going to suck I think....ummm....yeah, that's going to suck.

i don't know HOW to study that much.  i never have. i guess your advantage is that you went to a school that actually required you to study!

Whatchu mean you ain't never studied that much?  I know they ain't have no grades over there but what exactly did they have ya'll doing?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 12, 2007, 04:52:48 PM
Architectural Engineer, licensed in KS & MO.

Univ. of Kansas undergrad. (Go Jayhawks!!!)

Now I'm a lowly 3L over here at Rutgers - Newark.

shush! you ain't lowly! >:(


I will be when that Bar gets a hold of me.  You too.
@#!* THAT!  i am passing. i have to. no 250k/year for me if i don't.

Oh I have no doubt that we're going to pass. I'm just talking about the process of 2 months of straight of studying 7 days a week leading up to the bar.  That's going to suck I think....ummm....yeah, that's going to suck.

i don't know HOW to study that much.  i never have. i guess your advantage is that you went to a school that actually required you to study!

Whatchu mean you ain't never studied that much?  I know they ain't have no grades over there but what exactly did they have ya'll doing?

not *&^%.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 12, 2007, 04:56:47 PM
musta been a nice 3 years  :)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 12, 2007, 05:04:15 PM

The ceiling for even the best EE's is about what a fifth-year associate in biglaw makes. (Again, I'm assuming that I'll make it to biglaw).

how much does a 5th year associate in biglaw make?
[/quote]

The usual standard across the board for biglaw in NYC:

1st year $145,000     
2nd year $155,000     
3rd year $170,000     
4th year $190,000     
5th year $210,000     
6th year $225,000     
7th year $240,000     
8th year $255,000
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: EEtoJD on January 12, 2007, 05:04:57 PM

how much does a 5th year associate in biglaw make?

Using Skadden for an example, $200k w/out bonus.

EDIT: LIke k-sush... err, London Bound, said, this is probably dated. But this is about what I was thinking for ceiling.

Bruh what EE have you ever heard of that makes anything close to $200k per year??  Chem E's and Computer E's are still the highest paid engineers coming straight out of undergrad and they're not making half that.  I know you were talking about ceilings but I ain't even heard of a ceiling anywhere near that high for engineers.  Ceiling for Civ E's and Arch E's is about $120k/yr, and that's after about 20 to 30 years.  Engineering is one of those majors where you beat all of your college buddies coming right out of the gate because we tend to start higher than most other bachelor's degrees, but the pay goes up VERY slowly.  Like 1 to 2% pay increases every year type slow.

Seriously? I know EE's who make about this, actually. Professors at the best schools make this. Some of my professors make $125k. Then again, the EE's I know in the field who make this are in solid state, and they all have at least Master's. Very true about the slow increases in most cases.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: EEtoJD on January 12, 2007, 05:06:48 PM

Whatchu mean you ain't never studied that much?  I know they ain't have no grades over there but what exactly did they have ya'll doing?

not *&^%.

Damn, maybe I should change my top choice...
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: EEtoJD on January 12, 2007, 05:18:37 PM

Whatchu mean you ain't never studied that much?  I know they ain't have no grades over there but what exactly did they have ya'll doing?

not sh*t.

Damn, maybe I should change my top choice...

Do it! I'm going to have to ramp up the Boalt trolling around here....

So, is it Pass/Fail all the way through, or is it like Yale (HH/H/P/F)?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 12, 2007, 05:33:31 PM

Whatchu mean you ain't never studied that much?  I know they ain't have no grades over there but what exactly did they have ya'll doing?

not sh*t.

Damn, maybe I should change my top choice...

Do it! I'm going to have to ramp up the Boalt trolling around here....

So, is it Pass/Fail all the way through, or is it like Yale (HH/H/P/F)?

it's the latter.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 12, 2007, 05:34:09 PM
LOL!!!  Girl you got cats making that move to boalt by the masses! :D

Law school with no studying?  What?? Where do I sign? ;D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 12, 2007, 06:23:11 PM
LOL!!!  Girl you got cats making that move to boalt by the masses! :D

Law school with no studying?  What?? Where do I sign? ;D
that's my job as the oldest resident boalt troll. ;)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Einstein on January 12, 2007, 06:34:13 PM
Everything you say is true, but that's not what I meant. I'm saying for those that make it directly to biglaw, it is the quickest and most stable. You can go to Wharton, get an MBA, but there is still no obvious route like biglaw.

My assumption presupposes that we're talking about people who are able to go directly to biglaw, just as it presupposes we're talking about the best of the MBA's, MD's, whatever. Sorry that I didn't clarify.

The expenses, yeah. They suck. But no matter what, one thing is for sure: I'll make more money as a lawyer than I ever could have as an engineer. The ceiling for even the best EE's is about what a fifth-year associate in biglaw makes. (Again, I'm assuming that I'll make it to biglaw).

As an engineer myself, please allow me to say "you damn right!"

I remember they showed us what the regional Vice Presidents made in our firm during our orientation. There are 42 of them in the whole engineering firm of about 5,000 employees nationwide.  They were each making about $110k/yr.  It took them about 25 years to get there. 

I remember thinking to myself "shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit, damn that. Ya'll some suckas! Straight up. Do you get a free pocket protector with that?"


This is the realest sh*t i've ever heard.. Preach!  :o

I've thought the same thing before.. what a bunch of idiots.. working so hard for so little..
I billed 2150 hours at an engineering firm last year.. Toiling my life away, trying to figure out how I will be able to afford the newest mechanical/electrical error on my used BMW.  LOL!  Can't wait for law school.. bring it.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on January 12, 2007, 07:34:19 PM

Whatchu mean you ain't never studied that much?  I know they ain't have no grades over there but what exactly did they have ya'll doing?

not sh*t.

Damn, maybe I should change my top choice...

Do it! I'm going to have to ramp up the Boalt trolling around here....

So, is it Pass/Fail all the way through, or is it like Yale (HH/H/P/F)?

Yale's system is H/P/LP (though, for all intents and purposes, H/P) after first semester (which is CR/NC)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: EEtoJD on January 12, 2007, 07:41:51 PM

Whatchu mean you ain't never studied that much?  I know they ain't have no grades over there but what exactly did they have ya'll doing?

not sh*t.

Damn, maybe I should change my top choice...

Do it! I'm going to have to ramp up the Boalt trolling around here....

So, is it Pass/Fail all the way through, or is it like Yale (HH/H/P/F)?

Yale's system is H/P/LP (though, for all intents and purposes, H/P) after first semester (which is CR/NC)

LP? Low Pass? So... no one fails?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on January 12, 2007, 07:46:53 PM
Considering how many people get LPs, that is failing.  But I just checked the bulletin, and apparently there is a grade of "F."  Never, ever heard of someone getting one, though.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on January 12, 2007, 08:05:37 PM
I bet Boalt is more laid-back than Yale tho - people here gun for Hs ::)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 13, 2007, 07:39:45 AM
I bet Boalt is more laid-back than Yale tho - people here gun for Hs ::)

we have a segment of the population that guns for the H's too, but i would say that comparably speaking, they are probably less annoying than the grade gunners at most other schools. yale and boalt though, in terms of competitiveness, are probably close to the same.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 13, 2007, 03:57:42 PM
u friggin no grade having people make me sick.   ;D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on January 13, 2007, 10:35:10 PM
I bet Boalt is more laid-back than Yale tho - people here gun for Hs ::)

we have a segment of the population that guns for the H's too, but i would say that comparably speaking, they are probably less annoying than the grade gunners at most other schools. yale and boalt though, in terms of competitiveness, are probably close to the same.

I have no way of knowing, but if you're right, I know I couldn't deal with another school. My arse woulda dropped out!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 14, 2007, 07:46:26 AM
I bet Boalt is more laid-back than Yale tho - people here gun for Hs ::)

we have a segment of the population that guns for the H's too, but i would say that comparably speaking, they are probably less annoying than the grade gunners at most other schools. yale and boalt though, in terms of competitiveness, are probably close to the same.

I have no way of knowing, but if you're right, I know I couldn't deal with another school. My arse woulda dropped out!

i had a good friend who went to yale and i talked to her about it some, so that's sort of where i get my info. though you're right; i don't have first hand experience.  either way, i feel you! i couldn't go anywhere that requires you to sabotage your classmates on a daily basis. sound like  a bad learning environment to me.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: shaz on January 15, 2007, 11:25:41 PM
I'd never work big law, I have always intended on working for a small firm (less than 10 attys) for 3-5 yrs and then throw out my own shingle (though if I enjoy where I work, I'll stay).

Going into my 3L, I'm on track. I've been a summer associate 2x now and before ls I worked for 2 different small firms, one in hs. Plus, my aunt runs a solo practice and has helped me a ton.

Forget big law, my free time is worth way more than $100/hr.

i'm jealous.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 16, 2007, 06:45:20 PM
I can't knock the solo practice route. That takes jueves grandes.  And the small firm route after law school is also a good look if you can get in with the right crowd.  However as a broke law student I'm really starting to appreciate how Biglaw is paying for all our bar prep courses, the bar itself, and kickin down some loot while we study for the bar this summer.  Honestly, I would have been in a very tight spot considering my piss pour credit literally has not changed since I got here 3 years ago, making me ineligible for a bar loan like most cats.  So for as much sh!t as I talk on Biglaw, I do have to admit that they take care of their own when it comes to getting you ready for the financial burden of the bar.  Small firms simply do not cover these costs.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Lurking Third Year on January 16, 2007, 08:06:41 PM
I didn't read all of the replies, but being an associate is nowhere near as bad as that article makes it out to be. 

I'm not saying that everyone should work at a bigfirm, and I don't think I'll stay at my firm for more than a few years, but it's not the living hell that is described on these message boards.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 29, 2007, 11:50:01 PM
Not sure if I should put this in the "where should I apply thread" for you school rankings Jedi, but at any rate, figured you guys might find this interesting.  They just shot an e-mail out to the entering class at my firm talkin all that ra ra ra, and for the first time they included everybody's addresses on the e-mail, so you can actually see where everybody is coming from.  So the break down is as follows:

18 - Harvard
8 - Columbia
8 - NYU
4 - Penn
3 - Chicago
2 - Cardozo
2 - Texas
1 - Brooklyn
1 - Fordham
1 - GW
1 - Michigan
1 - Rutgers
1 - Yale

Just thought it was an interesting to see an actual demographic of a Biglaw firm.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on January 30, 2007, 06:09:30 AM
Not sure if I should put this in the "where should I apply thread" for you school rankings Jedi, but at any rate, figured you guys might find this interesting.  They just shot an e-mail out to the entering class at my firm talkin all that ra ra ra, and for the first time they included everybody's addresses on the e-mail, so you can actually see where everybody is coming from.  So the break down is as follows:

18 - Harvard
8 - Columbia
8 - NYU
4 - Penn
3 - Chicago
2 - Cardozo
2 - Texas
1 - Brooklyn
1 - Fordham
1 - GW
1 - Michigan
1 - Rutgers
1 - Yale

Just thought it was an interesting to see an actual demographic of a Biglaw firm.


Nice dood.  This might interest you: http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=557515&mc=144&forum_id=2
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 30, 2007, 09:16:15 AM
Interesting.  Very interesting.

I like how somebody jumped in there with the "Race?" question.  Ahhh, XOXO...some things never change. :D


EDIT:  I know somebody from my school who is going to Thacher Proffit & Wood but they don't have a Rutgers tick mark on the XOXO site here.  Oh well. :P
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on January 30, 2007, 11:53:49 AM
I just thought this link might be good to have somewhere on LSD:

http://lawfirmaddict2007.blogspot.com/

Now there's no need to scroll through xoxo.

Yea there's a new, xo is funny as hell  :D :D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on January 30, 2007, 11:55:53 AM
I just thought this link might be good to have somewhere on LSD:

http://lawfirmaddict2007.blogspot.com/

Now there's no need to scroll through xoxo.

I personally prefer XO, but to each his own :P
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on January 30, 2007, 12:00:21 PM
I just thought this link might be good to have somewhere on LSD:

http://lawfirmaddict2007.blogspot.com/

Now there's no need to scroll through xoxo.

I personally prefer XO, but to each his own :P

I wouldn't say that I prefer xoxo (i like both the same) but xoxo is definitely more informative with the stats and stuff they give out (and it seems that more law students post thann on lsd, besides from blsd).
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on January 30, 2007, 12:05:08 PM
Yeah, XO is dominated by the classes of 2005-08.  It's supremely more informative than LSD for people already in law school.  I stick around here mainly for BLSD and to troll for YLS every now and then (increasingly less of the latter, since I increasingly have better/more pressing things to do than talk to neurotic pre-Ls...no offense ;)).
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on January 30, 2007, 12:24:35 PM
No LSD v. xoxo judgements implied, I actually just meant no need to scroll through for the data . . . being highly dispersed as it is.

Haven't you noticed my retentive need for data organization yet, MCB? ;)



lol yea i've noticed  ;)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on January 30, 2007, 12:39:31 PM
No LSD v. xoxo judgements implied, I actually just meant no need to scroll through for the data . . . being highly dispersed as it is.

Haven't you noticed my retentive need for data organization yet, MCB? ;)



lol yea i've noticed  ;)

Whatever, I'll be a rocking study group buddy.

since you are summer start, you have to help me if/when i come in the fall--iwill expect you to know your ish cold  :D :D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on January 30, 2007, 01:03:49 PM
You won't really know until summer before 2L.  That's when the law firm craziness begins.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: pikey on January 30, 2007, 01:10:25 PM
You won't really know until summer before 2L.  That's when the law firm craziness begins.


That's good to know. As long as I'm not already supposed to be able to make something of all this!

xoxo is making me doubt my "go where you'll be happy" approach a little, but that's kind of what I would expect.

That's how I feel as well.  Maybe its just my natural arrogance that says that I'll do fine wherever I go, but I'm really not caught up in going to the highest school I get into, regardless of any other decision factors.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on January 30, 2007, 01:11:41 PM
You won't really know until summer before 2L.  That's when the law firm craziness begins.


That's good to know. As long as I'm not already supposed to be able to make something of all this!

xoxo is making me doubt my "go where you'll be happy" approach a little, but that's kind of what I would expect.

Lol.  This isn't undergrad.  You go to law school to get a job.  Go to the place that will allow you most easily to get the job you want or might want.  Now, if all else is equal, sure, go to the place where you'll be "happier."  And to the extent that being "happy" will make you get better grades, then also take that into consideration, but don't overvalue it.

With that, I digress.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 30, 2007, 01:16:18 PM
You won't really know until summer before 2L.  That's when the law firm craziness begins.


That's good to know. As long as I'm not already supposed to be able to make something of all this!

xoxo is making me doubt my "go where you'll be happy" approach a little, but that's kind of what I would expect.

That's how I feel as well.  Maybe its just my natural arrogance that says that I'll do fine wherever I go, but I'm really not caught up in going to the highest school I get into, regardless of any other decision factors.

A wise philosophy.

So you can just follow that handy link! 

(See, MCB? :P)

Thanks for the link.  XOXO scares me.   :P


You won't really know until summer before 2L.  That's when the law firm craziness begins.

Exactly!  I didn't know sh!t from shinola when it came to law firms all up until about that summer right before 2L started.  During 1L you're just trying to survive, so knowing who the heck Name Name & Name LLP is doesn't really matter.  Rest assured, you will know all of them inside & out come fall OCI.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 30, 2007, 02:36:15 PM
So you can just follow that handy link! 

(See, MCB? :P)

Thanks for the link.  XOXO scares me.   :P


No one likes your sass. :P


 ???
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Statistic on January 30, 2007, 03:42:05 PM
You won't really know until summer before 2L.  That's when the law firm craziness begins.


That's good to know. As long as I'm not already supposed to be able to make something of all this!

xoxo is making me doubt my "go where you'll be happy" approach a little, but that's kind of what I would expect.

Lol.  This isn't undergrad.  You go to law school to get a job.  Go to the place that will allow you most easily to get the job you want or might want.  Now, if all else is equal, sure, go to the place where you'll be "happier."  And to the extent that being "happy" will make you get better grades, then also take that into consideration, but don't overvalue it.

With that, I digress.

Indeed. Also, don't go by those 3 years of 'happiness' and completely forget about the rest of your life of 'happiness.' Your will be much 'happier' if you can open doors for the next 40 years of your life that would be closed otherwise.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on January 30, 2007, 04:01:14 PM
question what happens to all those top ranked law school associates that go to the highest ranked school so that the 1st year out of law school whole bunch of doors are open to them but in 5 years of slaving in big law dont make partner...are they as well off as the person who went to the school where they felt comfortable and are in a good position at their small to midsize law firm perhaps well on their way to partner?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on January 30, 2007, 04:08:31 PM
question what happens to all those top ranked law school associates that go to the highest ranked school so that the 1st year out of law school whole bunch of doors are open to them but in 5 years of slaving in big law dont make partner...are they as well off as the person who went to the school where they felt comfortable and are in a good position at their small to midsize law firm perhaps well on their way to partner?

as someone who deliberately chose to go overseas to avoid that grueling environment, i feel i can offer some perspective.

i can't imagine having to bill what lawyers at top firms in nyc are expected to bill. i am smart, but i am lazy and value my free time and family entirely too much to sell it all for a few hundred thousand bucks. there are plenty of firms that offer the lifestyle AND the pay, if you're willing to go out there, do your research and find them. i found one.

but you know where i see my classmates who sold their souls to cravath, simpson thatcher and the like in 5 years? trying to get a job at my firm, because that's where they should have gone in the first place. it's easy to fall for the allure of the money, but believe me, they will make you work for every cent of it. don't be a fool. nothing in life is free. and the vast majority of lawyers who go to those huge firms have nooooo f-ing idea what they're getting into. the majority will leave the profession or the firm within the next 5 years. i think the survival rates are a bit higher at the lifestyle firms.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 30, 2007, 04:15:01 PM
question what happens to all those top ranked law school associates that go to the highest ranked school so that the 1st year out of law school whole bunch of doors are open to them but in 5 years of slaving in big law dont make partner...are they as well off as the person who went to the school where they felt comfortable and are in a good position at their small to midsize law firm perhaps well on their way to partner?

as someone who deliberately chose to go overseas to avoid that grueling environment, i feel i can offer some perspective.

i can't imagine having to bill what lawyers at top firms in nyc are expected to bill. i am smart, but i am lazy and value my free time and family entirely too much to sell it all for a few hundred thousand bucks. there are plenty of firms that offer the lifestyle AND the pay, if you're willing to go out there, do your research and find them. i found one.

but you know where i see my classmates who sold their souls to cravath, simpson thatcher and the like in 5 years? trying to get a job at my firm, because that's where they should have gone in the first place. it's easy to fall for the allure of the money, but believe me, they will make you work for every cent of it. don't be a fool. nothing in life is free. and the vast majority of lawyers who go to those huge firms have nooooo f-ing idea what they're getting into. the majority will leave the profession or the firm within the next 5 years. i think the survival rates are a bit higher at the lifestyle firms.


LOL  good sh!t.

Furthermore, I submit that your school affiliation really only opens the first door, at most.  Outside of academia, the other doors of employment that are open to you after that are based largely upon your last job.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on January 30, 2007, 04:18:45 PM
i have an ex girlfriend who graduated from the University of MD tops in her class works for a big law firm in DC...she made 135K her first year which was 3 years ago and an 80k bonus her 1st year....dont know what she makes now but its more ..she is on call for 5 years...meaning if they need her for anything she has to stop what shes doing and come in she can't plan vacations for the next 2 years and if she happens to catch a case that lasts say 8 years which is nothing for some of these law suits she stuck till then on that case....that sucks
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 30, 2007, 04:25:05 PM
i have an ex girlfriend who graduated from the University of MD tops in her class works for a big law firm in DC...she made 135K her first year which was 3 years ago and an 80k bonus her 1st year....dont know what she makes now but its more ..she is on call for 5 years...meaning if they need her for anything she has to stop what shes doing and come in she can't plan vacations for the next 2 years and if she happens to catch a case that lasts say 8 years which is nothing for some of these law suits she stuck till then on that case....that sucks


man that sucks big time. I'd have to pass on that particular arangement.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on January 30, 2007, 04:30:57 PM
i dont think she understood the implications of "on call" when she took she just saw the dollar signs
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on January 30, 2007, 04:34:48 PM
question what happens to all those top ranked law school associates that go to the highest ranked school so that the 1st year out of law school whole bunch of doors are open to them but in 5 years of slaving in big law dont make partner...are they as well off as the person who went to the school where they felt comfortable and are in a good position at their small to midsize law firm perhaps well on their way to partner?

It's about the choice.  To have the choice of going into biglaw, to academia, to government, to a non-profit, to a small shop, to solo practice, to i-banking, to consulting, to whatever you want to do is what the top law school will get you.  Just because someone at a top school chooses to do something that someone from a lower school could do doesn't mean it's better from an ex ante perspective to go to the lower school.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on January 30, 2007, 04:45:06 PM
question what happens to all those top ranked law school associates that go to the highest ranked school so that the 1st year out of law school whole bunch of doors are open to them but in 5 years of slaving in big law dont make partner...are they as well off as the person who went to the school where they felt comfortable and are in a good position at their small to midsize law firm perhaps well on their way to partner?

It's about the choice.  To have the choice of going into biglaw, to academia, to government, to a non-profit, to a small shop, to solo practice, to i-banking, to consulting, to whatever you want to do is what the top law school will get you.  Just because someone at a top school chooses to do something that someone from a lower school could do doesn't mean it's better from an ex ante perspective to go to the lower school.


fair enough...but i think i made my point
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on January 30, 2007, 04:49:17 PM
Your "point" assumes only one person doesn't make partner.  Let's make it equal: Assume both people don't make partner and all else is equal, except one went to Northwestern on a full ride and the other went to Harvard.  Who's going to get the lateral position?  You guessed it.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on January 30, 2007, 05:00:43 PM
Your "point" assumes only one person doesn't make partner.  Let's make it equal: Assume both people don't make partner and all else is equal, except one went to Northwestern on a full ride and the other went to Harvard.  Who's going to get the lateral position?  You guessed it.


i think thats a big assumption...no one in real world hires based off of degree pedigree alone...they just dont...i was wondering when this board was going to get old and i think it just did...you high IQed high LSAT. intelligent young men and women really have a lot to learn....i wish you the best of luck
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on January 30, 2007, 05:11:21 PM
Your "point" assumes only one person doesn't make partner.  Let's make it equal: Assume both people don't make partner and all else is equal, except one went to Northwestern on a full ride and the other went to Harvard.  Who's going to get the lateral position?  You guessed it.


i think thats a big assumption...no one in real world hires based off of degree pedigree alone...they just dont...i was wondering when this board was going to get old and i think it just did...you high IQed high LSAT. intelligent young men and women really have a lot to learn....i wish you the best of luck

Just as valid as your assumption.  In fact, I don't even know what kind of conclusion one can draw from your hypo.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on January 30, 2007, 05:13:02 PM
really... the "blonde" got it
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on January 30, 2007, 07:47:51 PM
I "get" it.  I just don't think there's a point.  OK, maybe the biglaw guy would have been happier at a midlaw firm.  But how can you know that ex ante?  You can't.  It's best to go to the school that will allow you to make that choice for yourself.  Anyone can make a bad decision, and going to a lower ranked law school doesn't preclude that.  What about your midlaw associate who still works his ass off?  Is he as happy as someone lower on the law school totem pole working as a local DA?  Who knows?  It's a personal choice.  And none of us knows that we are making the right decisions when we make them.  The best you can ask for is to have a wide range of options from which to choose, and pray that you choose the right one.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on January 31, 2007, 03:31:27 PM
you get it ...but i dont have a point...but everybody else got it...but you must be right so go ahead and have the last word while your at it...master of the bait and switch if you dont go into litigation you are wasting your talent.... 8)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on January 31, 2007, 05:38:25 PM
Lol.  Listen, I got what you were trying to say, and maybe there is a point in your hypothetical world where people at lower schools always end up happier and in a better position than people at higher schools.  But in the real world, I think the "point" you were trying to make is invalid.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on February 06, 2007, 12:59:15 PM
Most Calif. Firms Still Not Matching N.Y. Associates' Pay

Kellie Schmitt
The Recorder
January 31, 2007

More California-based firms are opting for a segmented associate salary scale, hiking pay to a $160,000 base in their New York offices but implementing a $145,000 scale in California.

The salary fragmentation between New York and California began last week with O'Melveny & Myers and Morrison & Foerster and continued Monday with Los Angeles-based Sheppard, Mullin, Richter & Hampton. Paul, Hastings, Janofsky & Walker also went to the higher scale in New York on Monday, but has made no announcement about California.

"It's too early to tell, but my guess is that the differences will remain because New York is the most robust, vibrant and competitive legal market in the world," said Gregory Nitzkowski, managing partner for Paul Hastings.

In setting its California scale, Nitzkowski said, the firm will evaluate its competitors.

Nitzkowski noted that firms such as Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom, which have high concentrations of lawyers in New York, face "a much different calculation" for associate pay than firms with most of their associates in, say, California.

"You just don't have the same rates on the West Coast as New York," he added.

Sheppard Mullin administrative partner Robert Beall agreed: "They're just two different markets -- that's how we perceive it. I think all of us have to look at this in terms of what's best for clients and the markets."

Beall said the firm would not raise billing rates because of the salary matches: "It's just a cost we have to absorb."

New York-based Stroock & Stroock & Lavan carved out a distinctive path on Monday. It will pay New York associates on the $160,000 scale, but starting salaries in Los Angeles will be $150,000, according to partner Michael Perlis.

But Boston-based Fish & Richardson raised associate pay in all of its offices -- including Silicon Valley and San Diego -- to the $160,000 scale on Monday. The 420-lawyer intellectual property firm had "a responsibility to offer the most competitive salaries in the industry," according to Peter Devlin, the firm's president.

That's similar to the approach California's Quinn Emanuel Urquhart Oliver & Hedges adopted last week when it went to the New York scale in all of its offices, including Los Angeles and the San Francisco Bay Area.

Leading California firms such as Latham & Watkins and Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher were quiet Monday -- though speculation and commentary on Latham's possible moves cluttered associate messageboards and blogs.

A move from one of those firms could be enough to force firms that have raised to less than $160,000 to go the rest of the way, said Avis Caravello, a San Francisco-based recruiter.

"Let's say Latham goes to 160 -- there's no way O'Melveny or Gibson will stand by and let it happen," she said. "All you need is for one big California firm to do it."

If the market continues to be segmented, it could have long-term implications, she said: "If you lose one or two stellar candidates because you're lower, that reverberates through the firm. It really makes an impact in areas like corporate, where there's competition for associates with New York firms."

Firms with profits per partner above $1 million will find it easier to absorb the financial impact of the raises. But meeting the higher scale "could really squeeze midmarket firms," Caravello said.

Franklin Gowdy, Morgan, Lewis & Bockius' San Francisco managing partner, said rapidly rising associate salaries could drive some firms to try to get around the pay structure.

Firms may try to contain costs by hiring contract associates that they won't have to pay so highly, Gowdy said. Morgan Lewis has not made any salary moves yet, he said.

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1170151352998




Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on February 06, 2007, 02:27:16 PM
Cheap-ass firms.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on February 06, 2007, 02:32:23 PM
Cheap-ass firms.

firms are already paying first years much more than they are worth in temrs of productivity.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on February 06, 2007, 02:46:42 PM
Cheap-ass firms.

firms are already paying first years much more than they are worth in temrs of productivity.

No, first-year associates generate much more revenue than $145-160k for the firm.  Are they as productive as 5th-year associates?  No.  But are they paying their way?  Yes, many times over (even after taking their expenses into account, like GCoop said).
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on February 06, 2007, 03:19:19 PM
An associate broke it down for me once, I can't quite remember...  As a first year you're billed out at something like 2 or 300 bucks per hour (I think its $200 somebody correct me) to the client and you usually bill AT LEAST 2000 hours in a year. So $200 x 2000 = $400,000/yr for the firm.  After overhead and after the partners take their "piece of the pie" then you're left with the rest. So even if you're making $160k/yr for yourself you're still making $240k/yr for the firm.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on February 06, 2007, 08:24:20 PM
agreed. I really don't buy the bull firms try to pull "we're losing money on training you guys."  Yeah freaking right.  We're getting hosed and they know it.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Statistic on February 06, 2007, 09:19:32 PM
good thing law schools will also increase compensation too in response.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on February 06, 2007, 09:57:36 PM
::sigh:: you are probably right
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Statistic on February 06, 2007, 10:23:19 PM
why sigh?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Statistic on February 06, 2007, 10:28:17 PM
I was referring to teacher compensation.. but, yah, they will raise tuition too.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on February 06, 2007, 10:40:22 PM
Isn't Princeton holding tuition constant next year?   Gotta love the wealthy small schools.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on February 06, 2007, 10:45:37 PM
what does that have to do with law school?

Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Statistic on February 06, 2007, 10:49:50 PM
maybe he thinks Princeton has a law school. They don't make 'em too bright in good ole Alabama.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on February 06, 2007, 10:56:28 PM
what does that have to do with law school?

Tuition increases aren't restricted to law schools.  The actions of one part of a university likely impact the other parts.  And one school influences the other schools with which it competes (look at the finaid changes instigated by Princeton).

maybe he thinks Princeton has a law school. They don't make 'em too bright in good ole Alabama.

Don't make me go XO on your ass.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on February 06, 2007, 11:00:53 PM
sorry I'm not buying it--especially since most law schools are virtually financially independent from the larger institutions.  Anyway the argument was the increased firm salaries will encourage law schools to increase tuition accordingly--perhaps I'm being dense here but I don't see how Princeton's shennanigans are going to change anything.  You can bet your bottom dollar our tuition is still gonna go up next year.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on February 06, 2007, 11:05:33 PM
Of course it will.  But I think it will be determined more directly by the actions of our peer institutions, even if that is influenced indirectly by biglaw salary increases.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on February 06, 2007, 11:07:39 PM
ok that I buy--so umm why Princeton?  I'm just sayin...

 ;D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on February 06, 2007, 11:09:58 PM
Because I view the business of higher education as a whole.  Just because you and Opoto can't see the forest for the trees...

Oh that's right, OSA and Opoto still sittin' in that tree... :P
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Statistic on February 06, 2007, 11:10:39 PM
You can't #%@! your way out of this one you ol' watermelon eatin' 'bama.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on February 06, 2007, 11:14:43 PM
Because I view the business of higher education as a whole.  Just because you and Opoto can't see the forest for the trees...

Oh that's right, OSA and Opoto still sittin' in that tree... :P

So basically you screwed up.  Thats ok, you can admit it.  I'll move on.  So...how about them Colts?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on February 06, 2007, 11:20:22 PM
Because I view the business of higher education as a whole.  Just because you and Opoto can't see the forest for the trees...

Oh that's right, OSA and Opoto still sittin' in that tree... :P

So basically you screwed up.  Thats ok, you can admit it.  I'll move on.  So...how about them Colts?

Exactly.  Pwn3d.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on February 06, 2007, 11:22:42 PM
not sure.  probably got ripped off--as Coke almost did when their formula was given away.  can't wait for the "new" pepsi
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Statistic on February 06, 2007, 11:22:51 PM
How 'bout them Pwn3ds!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on February 06, 2007, 11:31:46 PM
not sure.  probably got ripped off--as Coke almost did when their formula was given away.  can't wait for the "new" pepsi

Link?  Are you talking about that stupid woman who committed treason against The Coca-Cola Company?  She didn't give away anything vital.  THE SECRET is locked away in a vault that disloyal peons like her can't access.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: EEtoJD on February 06, 2007, 11:42:13 PM
not sure.  probably got ripped off--as Coke almost did when their formula was given away.  can't wait for the "new" pepsi

Link?  Are you talking about that stupid woman who committed treason against The Coca-Cola Company?  She didn't give away anything vital.  THE SECRET is locked away in a vault that disloyal peons like her can't access.

(http://static.flickr.com/26/50799564_e3f9929b11_m.jpg)

It's PEOPLE!!!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on February 07, 2007, 09:56:58 AM
This topic has been extremely hijacked. :)

I believe we were saying something about...law firm associates or something...
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: SugarJ on February 11, 2007, 02:01:16 PM
This topic has been extremely hijacked. :)

I believe we were saying something about...law firm associates or something...

 ;D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 02, 2007, 01:00:47 PM
[not exactly firm associate life but life in the practice nonetheless]





In debt, young lawyers struggle to make it

Young prosecutors and assistant public defenders are struggling to pay for even the bare necessities.

BY SUSANNAH A. NESMITH
snesmith@MiamiHerald.com

For Allison Haney, it's a good thing Publix takes credit cards. By the end of the month, she often doesn't have enough money left from her salary as a prosecutor to buy food.

Ayana Harris turns to Mom and Dad for help with the basics every month, and knows her parents will have to chip in even more when the brakes in her car go, or the dog needs to go to the vet. As an assistant public defender, she's also strapped for cash each month.

Haney and Harris are among dozens of young South Florida lawyers who have decided to sacrifice the comforts a law degree could offer in order to practice criminal law for the government. They are sharp, dedicated and idealistic, and their dreams are sinking them deeper and deeper into debt each month.

''I'm 27 years old, I shouldn't be asking my parents for money,'' Haney said. ``It's sad. I don't want them to give me money, but sometimes I do go to their house to eat.''

Haney is a top ''pit prosecutor'' in Circuit Judge Larry Schwartz's courtroom, meaning that with a little more than three years' experience, she's already trying rapists, robbers and even the occasional murderer.

She earns $50,000 a year to do it.

''It's financially irresponsible for me to remain here,'' Haney said. ``But it's socially responsible. I love my job. There's nothing else I'd rather do.''

She has about $130,000 in debt, mostly school loans she took out to get her law degree.

GROWING GAP

The issue of underpaid prosecutors and public defenders is getting attention around the country as the difference grows between their salaries and what they could make in the private sector and even in other government positions.

District and state attorneys and their counterparts, the public defenders, report losing staff attorneys at alarming rates, and recruiting for such low-paying jobs is increasingly difficult.

In Tallahassee, Rep. Ari Porth, D-Coral Springs, is sponsoring a bill that would at least help assistant public defenders and prosecutors pay their school loans, but he said it's not getting much support in a tight budget year.

Porth has been a Broward prosecutor for 12 years and says he's been able to stay in the office that long only because he doesn't have any school loans.

SCHOOL LOANS

Help with her loans is exactly the kind of thing that could keep Harris in her job as an assistant public defender, defending the indigent people that Haney prosecutes.

Harris' debts -- about $140,000 -- are crushing when compared to her $56,000 salary.

She owed only $120,000 when she started working for the public defender's office almost six years ago, but the interest has added up as she's deferred her school loans. And she still owes taxes from 2001 and 2002.

Her parents regularly pitch in to keep her afloat.

'I don't think there are many people who go to school for seven years to live in their parents' pockets,'' Harris said over lunch in the courthouse cafeteria. ``It makes me feel like I'm not a complete adult.''

She's not even trying to live well at this point. She's basically given up vacations -- her parents pay for her tickets home and she doesn't travel anymore, even though she studied abroad and used to love to wander.

''I promised I'd take my mother to Africa for her 60th birthday. Now it's coming up, but I don't see how I'll do it,'' she said sadly.

Harris' father, Robert Harris, is happy to help his daughter, but he's not sure how long he can subsidize her.

''As a father, you want to be there for them but at some point you think you cut those apron strings and they'll be able to support themselves,'' he said.

``I don't mind doing it, it's just sort of unfair.''

And he worries about those looming loans and what they're doing to his daughter's credit.

''You mortgage your life away because you wanted to educate yourself,'' he said. ``I see someone like Ayana who's willing to work in a job that probably a lot of people don't like to do. I think she should be fairly compensated.''

RETENTION CHALLENGE

The low salaries mean both offices are struggling to keep attorneys like Haney and Harris.

Consider the Miami-Dade state attorney's office. It has a staff of 291 attorneys and lost 126 of them in 2005 and 2006. The public defender's office, with a staff of 192 attorneys, lost 63 during the same two-year period.

Harris and Haney don't want to be part of those statistics, but they're realistic.

'The only thing that is keeping me here is my parents' ability to supplement my income,'' Harris said. 'Initially, they thought `how noble' to defend people who can't afford a lawyer, but quite frankly, both of them are a little bit over it now.''

''I can't do this much longer,'' Haney said. ``I keep meaning to put my résumé out, but the part of me that wants to stay here hasn't gotten around to it yet. . . . It's an amazing feeling when you get a guilty [verdict] in trial for somebody who is truly a danger to the community. I'll miss that.''
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Justiceforall on May 02, 2007, 02:57:29 PM
Well I don't want to work for big law..but  more then likely I will have to pay over 150,000 grand for law school (Unless I get a scholarship which will probaly happen..not sure if it will be a full ride though)

I think we need to start a thread on the many ways to pay off debt without going to big law..Maybe I won't be making 120,000 grand out of law school but ...atleast they don't own me :)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Booyakasha2 on May 02, 2007, 03:00:23 PM
Well I don't want to work for big law..but  more then likely I will have to pay over 150,000 grand for law school (Unless I get a scholarship which will probaly happen..not sure if it will be a full ride though)

I think we need to start a thread on the many ways to pay off debt without going to big law..Maybe I won't be making 120,000 grand out of law school but ...atleast they don't own me :)

That may be so....but with 150k of loans, someone will. Be it the lenders, irs, etc. 

Some ways to avoid that much debt. Do well on lsat and go to the school that strikes the best balance b/w cost of attendence and return of job oppurtunity. 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Justiceforall on May 02, 2007, 03:03:48 PM

I'd never work big law, I have always intended on working for a small firm (less than 10 attys) for 3-5 yrs and then throw out my own shingle (though if I enjoy where I work, I'll stay).



This is what I've begun to think about - if I go into civil litigation (I'm still strongly considering criminal law).
The more I get to know solo practioners the more attractive it seems. I don't like the idea of feast or famine - the idea of not having a steady salary makes me a bit nervous, but I really like the idea of controlling my environment.

It's even easier to go solo in criminal law, you'll have no shortage of clients. I personally detest criminal law, I don't want to deal with scum even to prosecute them.

That's exactly what I want to do criminal law..what are the prospects, salary ranges, etc? Can I do it straight out of law school? (after I pass the bar of course)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 02, 2007, 03:05:34 PM
Criminal law in what capacity?  Prosecutor? Defense?  Public Defender? State, Federal?  Many different variables to that answer.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Justiceforall on May 02, 2007, 03:07:49 PM
Criminal Defense ..including litigation (I don't know I guess what comes to mind is the tv show "The Practice" )
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 02, 2007, 03:14:33 PM
LOL  OK OK, so more along the lines of having your own practice and defending clients against prosecution.  It can be feast or famine in the criminal defense business when you have your own private practice.  A few brothers came to a BLSA conference a few months back and told us about their own criminal law practice that they had opened a few years ago. One had worked for a firm for a few years, the other had worked for the DA's office in Manhattan.  They said that it varies month to month what they make, but they're usually billing for at least 10 to 15k per month.  Mind you, some of that has to go towards office rental, secretary, usual overhead expenses, etc.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on May 02, 2007, 03:31:52 PM
OTOH, if your idea is more along the lines of "Boston Legal," you make regular BIGLAW money (or better, depending on the firm).
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Justiceforall on May 02, 2007, 03:48:30 PM
OTOH, if your idea is more along the lines of "Boston Legal," you make regular BIGLAW money (or better, depending on the firm).

No my big dream is to do criminal defense and trial work... on the likes of this guy...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Mesereau

I like how he helps with the african american community and donates time to help on death penalty cases..
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Justiceforall on May 02, 2007, 03:50:42 PM
"Balancing Mr. Mesereau's high-profile courtroom career achievements are his pro bono legal projects aiding the needy, particularly those in the African-American community. He used to donate two Sundays a month to serving low income, indigent, and minority clients with their legal matters--from the mundane to the life-altering--at a monthly legal clinic in South Los Angeles operated by the First AME Church and the UCLA School of Law. He now operates his own free legal clinic at Brookins AME Church in South Los Angeles, and continues to donate his time at other similar clinics throughout the city. In addition, Mesereau donates his time, personal funds, and criminal defense skills once a year to represent low income, African-American criminal defendants facing the death penalty in Alabama and Mississippi."

Sounds like a worthy cause to me rather then making  corporate money for Jesus, Christ and Moses
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Booyakasha2 on May 02, 2007, 05:13:29 PM
my friends dad is a crim defense lawyer.  Took him 3x to pass the bar, wasnt a stellar student.  He does well, sent all his kids to private school and college.  But now and then he gets threatening calls to his house and stalkers.  Even my friend got threatened once when she picked up the phone.  Oh and one time, one dude couldnt pay him, so he ended up staining his deck, and doing some other work on his house.  It was weird.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jillibean on May 03, 2007, 07:01:42 AM
tag
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 03, 2007, 08:25:52 PM
In debt, young lawyers struggle to make it
BY SUSANNAH A. NESMITH




LOL  :D - Son, you must not have seen this one on the previous page:


http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,67616.msg2199763.html#msg2199763
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on May 03, 2007, 08:28:09 PM
Lol...oops, guess I didn't go back to that page.  I will delete to avoid clutter :).
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 03, 2007, 08:30:50 PM
It's all gravy. Great minds.

Tough break for the prosecutors though.  There needs to be some type of gov. assistance for those of us who go into those fields.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on May 03, 2007, 08:37:44 PM
Agreed.  They should at least forgive the governmental loans.  Ah well ::shrugs and fills out his direct deposit form for BIGLAW::
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on May 03, 2007, 09:02:20 PM
Look how far we've come in just 10 years:

Atlanta's big law firms raise starting salaries to $67,000
Atlanta Business Chronicle - June 28, 1996
by Kelly Greene
Staff Writer

A case of wage inflation is going around Atlanta's largest law firms, and it's contagious.

So far this month, Alston & Bird, Troutman Sanders LLP, King & Spalding and Kilpatrick & Cody have decided to raise beginning associates' salaries by 12 percent to $67,000 a year. It's the first widespread pay increase for Atlanta's youngest lawyers since 1990, when most firms increased pay to $60,000 from $54,000.

Alston & Bird started the trend June 7. The firm made the change to compete nationally for law schools' best recruits, who typically get better offers from law practices in New York and Washington. "We made an assessment nationally and decided to raise starting compensation beginning next year," said L. Neil Williams Jr., Alston & Bird's managing partner.

Troutman Sanders, which heard about Alston & Bird's decision, quickly followed with its own announcement that it would increase starting pay. Robert W. Webb Jr., Troutman Sanders' managing partner, said, "We thought it was appropriate so we could stay competitive in the market."

And King & Spalding told its employees that the other two firms' decisions would result in its own starting-salary hike, effective July 1, said King & Spalding Managing Partner Ralph B. Levy.

The firm, whose 171 associates make it the largest law firm in Atlanta, made its decision "in response to market movement. There had been no discussion about an increase in starting salaries," Levy said. And he said rumors that the firm had been considering raising starting pay to $72,000 were "never true."

Kilpatrick & Cody has decided to match the increase as well, said A. Stephens Clay, recently elected by the firm's partners to a newly created strategic-planning post. The firm announced in late April that it plans to hire another 100 lawyers, including new hires and lateral moves from other firms, in the next five years.

Kilpatrick & Cody hasn't decided how the beginning associates' raises "will affect the people already here," Clay said. The firm plans to work with current associates on an individual basis to bring their pay in line.

The 12 percent spike in starting pay should trickle up in some way to other associates at the other firms, the firms' managing partners confirmed. "It would be unfair not to do so," Levy said.

So the announcements by four of Atlanta's largest law firms have sent their local competitors crunching numbers in their own budgets as they weigh whether to up the ante. Not only could they lose out in recruiting new associates -- the firms typically hire 20 to 30 people out of law school each year -- but they could lose experienced staff in Atlanta's intensely competitive legal climate.

Ogletree Deakins Nash Smoak & Stewart's partners probably won't make a decision before January, said hiring partner Martha Perrin. But she sees most of the pressure coming from the firms moving here.

"So many national law firms are setting up offices in Atlanta, and Atlanta firms are competing to be the prime lawyers for businesses in Chicago and New York," she said. "It's competitive, but $67,000 is a big jump, I think."

William H. Kitchens, chairman of the management committee for Arnall Golden & Gregory, said the firm is discussing whether to raise starting pay. So is Smith Gambrell & Russell, said Managing Partner Arthur Jay Schwartz. He sees the strongest argument in favor of such a raise "the fact that the last changes were in 1989 and 1990."

Jones Day Reavis & Pogue already pays more than the proposed increase at the rest of Atlanta's biggest law firms. Jones Day, which is based in Cleveland, pays starting associates $70,000 a year, with a $4,000 signing bonus.

http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/1996/07/01/story3.html
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Justiceforall on May 04, 2007, 02:30:32 PM
Look how far we've come in just 10 years:

Atlanta's big law firms raise starting salaries to $67,000
Atlanta Business Chronicle - June 28, 1996
by Kelly Greene
Staff Writer

A case of wage inflation is going around Atlanta's largest law firms, and it's contagious.

So far this month, Alston & Bird, Troutman Sanders LLP, King & Spalding and Kilpatrick & Cody have decided to raise beginning associates' salaries by 12 percent to $67,000 a year. It's the first widespread pay increase for Atlanta's youngest lawyers since 1990, when most firms increased pay to $60,000 from $54,000.

Alston & Bird started the trend June 7. The firm made the change to compete nationally for law schools' best recruits, who typically get better offers from law practices in New York and Washington. "We made an assessment nationally and decided to raise starting compensation beginning next year," said L. Neil Williams Jr., Alston & Bird's managing partner.

Troutman Sanders, which heard about Alston & Bird's decision, quickly followed with its own announcement that it would increase starting pay. Robert W. Webb Jr., Troutman Sanders' managing partner, said, "We thought it was appropriate so we could stay competitive in the market."

And King & Spalding told its employees that the other two firms' decisions would result in its own starting-salary hike, effective July 1, said King & Spalding Managing Partner Ralph B. Levy.

The firm, whose 171 associates make it the largest law firm in Atlanta, made its decision "in response to market movement. There had been no discussion about an increase in starting salaries," Levy said. And he said rumors that the firm had been considering raising starting pay to $72,000 were "never true."

Kilpatrick & Cody has decided to match the increase as well, said A. Stephens Clay, recently elected by the firm's partners to a newly created strategic-planning post. The firm announced in late April that it plans to hire another 100 lawyers, including new hires and lateral moves from other firms, in the next five years.

Kilpatrick & Cody hasn't decided how the beginning associates' raises "will affect the people already here," Clay said. The firm plans to work with current associates on an individual basis to bring their pay in line.

The 12 percent spike in starting pay should trickle up in some way to other associates at the other firms, the firms' managing partners confirmed. "It would be unfair not to do so," Levy said.

So the announcements by four of Atlanta's largest law firms have sent their local competitors crunching numbers in their own budgets as they weigh whether to up the ante. Not only could they lose out in recruiting new associates -- the firms typically hire 20 to 30 people out of law school each year -- but they could lose experienced staff in Atlanta's intensely competitive legal climate.

Ogletree Deakins Nash Smoak & Stewart's partners probably won't make a decision before January, said hiring partner Martha Perrin. But she sees most of the pressure coming from the firms moving here.

"So many national law firms are setting up offices in Atlanta, and Atlanta firms are competing to be the prime lawyers for businesses in Chicago and New York," she said. "It's competitive, but $67,000 is a big jump, I think."

William H. Kitchens, chairman of the management committee for Arnall Golden & Gregory, said the firm is discussing whether to raise starting pay. So is Smith Gambrell & Russell, said Managing Partner Arthur Jay Schwartz. He sees the strongest argument in favor of such a raise "the fact that the last changes were in 1989 and 1990."

Jones Day Reavis & Pogue already pays more than the proposed increase at the rest of Atlanta's biggest law firms. Jones Day, which is based in Cleveland, pays starting associates $70,000 a year, with a $4,000 signing bonus.

http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/1996/07/01/story3.html

You in ATL?  I'm live in Georgia (Kennesaw)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Justiceforall on May 04, 2007, 02:31:40 PM
what is the typical path like for law school grads who want to do criminal defense (after they pass the bar of course)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on May 04, 2007, 03:03:44 PM
You in ATL?  I'm live in Georgia (Kennesaw)

No, I'm in CT.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on May 05, 2007, 06:42:03 PM
Firms Hunting for Stars Re-Examine Partner Compensation
Andrew Longstreth
The American Lawyer
05-07-2007

Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton managing partner Mark Walker is old-school when it comes to partner compensation. He sees no reason to change Cleary's seniority-based lockstep scheme, in which the spread between the highest- and lowest-paid partner is less than 3:1. It's a no-hassle system -- no long meetings explaining bonus decisions and no disputes among partners over credit for bringing in business. And it is the foundation of Cleary's culture, Walker says, which emphasizes the collective over the individual. If the firm is not a magnet for hot lateral candidates who want to be paid like A-Rod, that's OK with Walker. "My view is that if someone says I'm not going to Cleary Gottlieb because [another firm] is guaranteeing me a salary of X, then they don't belong at our firm anyway," he says.

That's a common sentiment among the most profitable firms in The Am Law 100, where old-fashioned compensation systems remain firmly in place. Leaders of firms such as Debevoise & Plimpton; Cravath, Swaine & Moore; and Simpson Thacher & Bartlett say they don't see a need to adjust their pay scales to accommodate star partners. With profits so high at those firms, even low spreads -- frequently less than 4:1 -- give few partners reason to complain. "We look at ourselves all the time," says Evan Chesler, presiding partner of Cravath, a firm with a spread of 3:1 (and profits per partner of $3 million in 2006). "There's not been any serious consideration to change our lockstep system."

It's easy to understand the resistance to change. The most profitable firms don't often lose partners to other firms. That's never happened at Simpson Thacher (2006 profits per partner of $2.5 million), says managing partner Philip "Pete" Ruegger III. Like Cleary's Walker, Ruegger says that Simpson's compensation system is designed to promote the institution over the individual, with benefits accruing to both. Simpson's bedrock clients, like The Blackstone Group L.P. and Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co., are clients of the firm, not of any individual partner, so all partners have a stake in the revenue they generate.

"Life would go on," says Ruegger, about the possibility of losing a partner to another firm because of Simpson's compensation system, which, according to competitors, has a spread of less than 4:1. (Ruegger would not comment on the firm's spread.) "We'd be disappointed, but we wouldn't change our structure."

Maybe not, but there is evidence suggesting that even the firms with the highest profits per partner are becoming increasingly vulnerable to the lateral market. Partners now make moves that might have once been unimaginable. Two-and-a-half years ago, star securities litigator Ralph Ferrara left Debevoise & Plimpton for a partnership at LeBoeuf, Lamb, Greene & MacRae, a firm historically not in the same universe as Debevoise in profitability. Last fall, Steven Lofchie, an expert in broker-dealer regulation, opted out of the lockstep compensation system of Davis Polk & Wardwell for Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft, a firm that is known for compensating partners for their business-generating prowess. And earlier this year, Roger Meltzer left Cahill Gordon & Reindel, ranked sixth in PPP, for DLA Piper, which ranks 49th in PPP -- but which has a spread of around 10:1 among equity partners.

None of these laterals would comment on compensation, but it's clear that several firms in The Am Law 100 are now deploying high-spread compensation systems specifically designed to reward their most valuable partners with more money than they could earn at even the most profitable low-spread firms. Firms have upped the difference between their highest- and lowest-paid partners to 10:1 -- or even more. And some of those firms have the capacity to pay partners as much as or more than the best-paid Cravath or Simpson partner.

Traditionally, when the most profitable firms have lost star partners, it hasn't been to other firms, but to other industries, frequently the financial world. In 2000 Cravath M&A rainmaker Robert Kindler went to Chase Manhattan Corporation (now JPMorgan Chase & Co.) to become an investment banker. (Kindler has since moved on to Morgan Stanley.) In 2005 the leader of Davis Polk's M&A group, Dennis Hersch, followed Kindler to JPMorgan Chase. Last year Alan Schwartz left Simpson for the First Reserve Corp., a private equity firm. And in February, executive compensation expert Adam Chinn gave up his guaranteed millions as a partner at Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz to join Centerview Partners LLC, a newly formed investment banking boutique. Even the most profitable firms don't try to keep partners who are lured by the riches of financial institutions, which can easily pay them more. "We can't and we don't compete [with investment banks]," says Chesler.

But now a few of the highest-paid partners at firms further down the Am Law 100 profitability chart are receiving more bankerlike compensation -- thanks to extreme spreads in the partnership, which often includes equity and nonequity tiers. That's the case at Latham & Watkins, which ranks at the bottom of the first quintile of The Am Law 100 in profits per partner. In a modified lockstep system, Latham equity partners receive between 300 and 900 points. Income partners are given as few as 60 points on top of their fixed salary, according to a former partner. (The value of each point is determined by the profits available.) Bonuses, which are handed out in addition to the points, put even more distance between the highest- and lowest-paid Latham partners. Robert Dell, Latham's chairman and managing partner, won't reveal the firm's spread, but he says that 15 percent of the firm's profits are allocated to bonuses, which is an attractive selling point for laterals, especially those who know they can bring business to Latham. A top performer at Latham can now earn more than $5 million, according to a recruiter familiar with the firm. (The firm declined to comment on the figure.)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on May 05, 2007, 06:42:37 PM
Reed Smith managing partner Gregory Jordan also says that the firm's ability to pay more at the high end has helped in lateral hiring. "When we find a lateral that fits in our firm, we've been able to meet the compensation requirements even when our competition has a higher ranking in the PPP," says Jordan. "We don't really stop at the name of the firm." Reed Smith, which had a 16.8:1 spread in 2005, recently brought in partners from firms with higher average profits per partner, including Lee Zoeller, who chaired Dechert's state tax practice, and corporate partner Kevin Hall, from Linklaters.

At Hogan & Hartson, the spread in 2005 was even higher -- 20:1. J. Warren Gorrell Jr., Hogan's chairman, says that's the result of the firm's growth into markets and practice areas with different rate structures. There's more variation in the profits that partners generate, he says, and the spread simply takes that into account. "We've had [a large spread] for a very long time," says Gorrell. "The fact that it drags down our PPP is not such a big deal." Especially when top partners can be amply rewarded. Gorrell, like Reed Smith's Jordan, says that the flexibility of his firm's spread helps in lateral hiring. He declined to cite examples, but last year Hogan brought in senior M&A partner Jonathan Coppin from the London office of Shearman & Sterling, a firm that has traditionally had higher profits per partner than Hogan. (Coppin declined to comment on his compensation.)

In most firms with high spreads, the top tiers are very, very small. At DLA Piper, for example, the highest-paid partner -- product liability litigator Amy Schulman -- earned $5.75 million last year, according to a DLA partner who spoke on background. Another partner, San Diego-based patent litigator John Allcock, made $5 million. But according to this partner, below those two, the drop is significant, with the lowest-paid equity partner making $425,000. Schulman and Allcock declined through a DLA spokesperson to comment on their compensation, but joint chief executive Francis Burch Jr. says that if the firm's three highest-paid partners were not included, the spread would be around 7:1, not 13.5:1. (Burch declined to confirm the identity of the highest-paid partners or their compensation.) At Sheppard, Mullin, Richter & Hampton, where the spread is 19.6:1, a single lawyer -- Los Angeles-based antitrust and IP litigator Joseph Coyne Jr. -- is alone at the top, according to Guy Halgren, the firm's chairman. After Coyne, who confirms that he made $5.4 million last year with the help of a contingency fee case, the next-highest-paid partners made around $2.1 million. Partners at the bottom of the scale made around $300,000.

Among many firms in the upper echelon of profitability, that's exactly the sort of inequality that lockstep and low spreads are intended to avoid. Proponents of small spreads say that they foster a culture that eases the pressure on individuals, which helps keep partners on board even if they could make more elsewhere. "If you think you're making enough, you weigh the other things," says Cleary's Walker.

But there's also a financial risk analysis that often keeps partners put. Lawyers are risk-averse. So many partners who could jump from a lockstep firm to a more eat-what-you-kill shop and make $4 million to $5 million for a year or two hesitate when they're offered no guarantees beyond that. Between that option and a guaranteed multimillion-dollar salary until they retire at their lockstep firm, "many will chose the latter," says legal recruiter Arthur Schwartz of Klein Landau & Romm.

Still, it may be a mistake for firms with low spreads to be complacent -- especially if they begin to lose ground to competitors. They only have to look at the experience of certain Magic Circle firms, some of which have extremely low spreads of 2.5:1. After Clifford Chance's merger with Rogers & Wells in 2000, for example, most of the American partners were slotted into Clifford's lockstep system. Some stars from Rogers & Wells were kept off the lockstep -- yet the firm still lost many of them, including Kevin Arquit to Simpson Thacher and Steven Newborn to Weil, Gotshal & Manges. (In December 2005 Clifford Chance partners voted to amend the firm's system by introducing three different lockstep ladders, which would take into account different markets, but a Clifford Chance spokesperson declined to specify to what degree the new system has been implemented.) American firms are luring away some of the best talent at other lockstep British firms as well. Last year, for example, Kirkland & Ellis brought on such high-profile London partners as the Linklaters private equity duo of Graham White and Raymond McKeeve and Allen & Overy finance ace A. Stephen Gillespie. In recent years some of the Magic Circle firms have responded by taking steps to boost their profitability. Linklaters, for example, asked a "significant" number of underperforming partners to leave, according to the firm's U.S. managing partner, Paul Wickes. Since the restructuring -- and despite its lockstep compensation -- Linklaters in New York has attracted lateral partners from White & Case, Shearman & Sterling, and Latham & Watkins.

Shearman & Sterling may provide a cautionary tale of what happens to firms with low spreads that can't pay at the top of the market. Last year Shearman increased profits per partner 19 percent to $1.65 million, but over the years it has not kept pace with its peers in the New York elite. In 2000 the firm ranked 13th in PPP; this year it ranks 22nd. During Shearman's slide down the profitability chart, it has lost a raft of partners. Shearman asked some to leave, according to a former partner. But not all defections were planned, including the loss of such stars as antitrust partner Steven Sunshine to Cadwalader (he's now at Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom); tax litigators B. John Williams Jr. and Alan Swirksi to Skadden; and asset management partner Barry Barbash to Willkie, Farr & Gallagher. As it lost ground in the profitability ranks, Shearman did not significantly adjust its 4:1 spread -- and, says a former partner, lawyers with portable business realized that they could make more money elsewhere. (Shearman declined to comment for this story.)

If firms continue to employ a narrow spread, the lesson is clear: Make sure the PPP stays high. If Cravath didn't make so much money, would its partners stick around? "I don't know the answer to that," says Cravath's Chesler. "I think there is more glue than just the money."

But he hopes he doesn't have to find out.

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1178183087733
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Sparkz1920 on May 05, 2007, 07:36:35 PM
what is the typical path like for law school grads who want to do criminal defense (after they pass the bar of course)


Right, i would like to know that as well. I want to go into Criminal Law, always have.Thats the reason why i chose Criminal Justice as an undergrad major. But im starting to wonder, is my ass gonna get paid anything

Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Justiceforall on May 06, 2007, 07:07:47 AM
what is the typical path like for law school grads who want to do criminal defense (after they pass the bar of course)


Right, i would like to know that as well. I want to go into Criminal Law, always have.Thats the reason why i chose Criminal Justice as an undergrad major. But im starting to wonder, is my ass gonna get paid anything



http://www.vault.com/articles/Criminal-Litigation-Careers:-The-Private-Defense-Attorney-22541018.html

check that out :)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 06, 2007, 12:11:22 PM

But there's also a financial risk analysis that often keeps partners put. Lawyers are risk-averse. So many partners who could jump from a lockstep firm to a more eat-what-you-kill shop and make $4 million to $5 million for a year or two hesitate when they're offered no guarantees beyond that. Between that option and a guaranteed multimillion-dollar salary until they retire at their lockstep firm, "many will chose the latter," says legal recruiter Arthur Schwartz of Klein Landau & Romm.

Still, it may be a mistake for firms with low spreads to be complacent -- especially if they begin to lose ground to competitors. They only have to look at the experience of certain Magic Circle firms, some of which have extremely low spreads of 2.5:1. After Clifford Chance's merger with Rogers & Wells in 2000, for example, most of the American partners were slotted into Clifford's lockstep system. Some stars from Rogers & Wells were kept off the lockstep -- yet the firm still lost many of them, including Kevin Arquit to Simpson Thacher and Steven Newborn to Weil, Gotshal & Manges. (In December 2005 Clifford Chance partners voted to amend the firm's system by introducing three different lockstep ladders, which would take into account different markets, but a Clifford Chance spokesperson declined to specify to what degree the new system has been implemented.) American firms are luring away some of the best talent at other lockstep British firms as well. Last year, for example, Kirkland & Ellis brought on such high-profile London partners as the Linklaters private equity duo of Graham White and Raymond McKeeve and Allen & Overy finance ace A. Stephen Gillespie. In recent years some of the Magic Circle firms have responded by taking steps to boost their profitability. Linklaters, for example, asked a "significant" number of underperforming partners to leave, according to the firm's U.S. managing partner, Paul Wickes. Since the restructuring -- and despite its lockstep compensation -- Linklaters in New York has attracted lateral partners from White & Case, Shearman & Sterling, and Latham & Watkins.

Shearman & Sterling may provide a cautionary tale of what happens to firms with low spreads that can't pay at the top of the market. Last year Shearman increased profits per partner 19 percent to $1.65 million, but over the years it has not kept pace with its peers in the New York elite. In 2000 the firm ranked 13th in PPP; this year it ranks 22nd. During Shearman's slide down the profitability chart, it has lost a raft of partners. Shearman asked some to leave, according to a former partner. But not all defections were planned, including the loss of such stars as antitrust partner Steven Sunshine to Cadwalader (he's now at Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom); tax litigators B. John Williams Jr. and Alan Swirksi to Skadden; and asset management partner Barry Barbash to Willkie, Farr & Gallagher. As it lost ground in the profitability ranks, Shearman did not significantly adjust its 4:1 spread -- and, says a former partner, lawyers with portable business realized that they could make more money elsewhere. (Shearman declined to comment for this story.)

If firms continue to employ a narrow spread, the lesson is clear: Make sure the PPP stays high. If Cravath didn't make so much money, would its partners stick around? "I don't know the answer to that," says Cravath's Chesler. "I think there is more glue than just the money."

But he hopes he doesn't have to find out.

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1178183087733


So....what exactly do you do with $3 million per year?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Sparkz1920 on May 06, 2007, 12:13:31 PM
what is the typical path like for law school grads who want to do criminal defense (after they pass the bar of course)


Right, i would like to know that as well. I want to go into Criminal Law, always have.Thats the reason why i chose Criminal Justice as an undergrad major. But im starting to wonder, is my ass gonna get paid anything



http://www.vault.com/articles/Criminal-Litigation-Careers:-The-Private-Defense-Attorney-22541018.html

check that out :)


Thankz Babe ;)

I dont know though, Corporate Law is looking quite nice to me right about now. I need a steady salary, and a REAL salary

Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on May 06, 2007, 01:21:38 PM
So....what exactly do you do with $3 million per year?

(http://www.allaguida.it/img/dms_aston_martin_v12_vanquish_s_01.jpg)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 06, 2007, 02:44:04 PM
So....what exactly do you do with $3 million per year?

(http://www.allaguida.it/img/dms_aston_martin_v12_vanquish_s_01.jpg)

Oh right.  I almost forgot.  U could certainly live your life like Vincent Chase in Entourage at that level.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: lawschoolboundlady on May 06, 2007, 03:27:31 PM
So is life at a midsize firm drastically differen than BIGLAW? are there vault 100 firms that offer an experience that doesn't suck a person's soul out of their body? Anywhere you can get paid 100,000+ and not work 70 hours a week? I don't want to end up the ex-hippie =( hah
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on May 06, 2007, 03:32:22 PM
So is life at a midsize firm drastically differen than BIGLAW? are there vault 100 firms that offer an experience that doesn't suck a person's soul out of their body? Anywhere you can get paid 100,000+ and not work 70 hours a week? I don't want to end up the ex-hippie =( hah

there are some midlaw firms that work you just as hard as biglaw w/o the extra $$ or added exit options.

from what i've heard 70+hours a week isn't the a weekly thing, it does arise depending on whether a case is coming up or something.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: lawschoolboundlady on May 06, 2007, 03:38:15 PM
So is life at a midsize firm drastically differen than BIGLAW? are there vault 100 firms that offer an experience that doesn't suck a person's soul out of their body? Anywhere you can get paid 100,000+ and not work 70 hours a week? I don't want to end up the ex-hippie =( hah

there are some midlaw firms that work you just as hard as biglaw w/o the extra $$ or added exit options.

from what i've heard 70+hours a week isn't the a weekly thing, it does arise depending on whether a case is coming up or something.

well all i know is, I have no problem turning my back on a career in favor of living a full and worthwhile life. But I'm guessing its not AS bad as the original post made it out to be.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 06, 2007, 03:46:41 PM
So is life at a midsize firm drastically differen than BIGLAW? are there vault 100 firms that offer an experience that doesn't suck a person's soul out of their body? Anywhere you can get paid 100,000+ and not work 70 hours a week? I don't want to end up the ex-hippie =( hah


Speaking from a NY perspective, the term "midsize firm" over here may be somewhat of a misnomer, b/c it's very possible to be in a "midsize" firm of say, 50 to 75 attorneys and still be working your butt off for significantly less pay. But New York is hardly ever a good metric for what is normal.  In other parts of the country, I have friends on the other end of the spectrum working for quote unquote "BigLaw" in cities like Houston, Miami, Kansas City, & St. Louis where they are not exactly slaving away (believe it or not) and still being generously compensated for their time.  My homegirl in St. Louis is working for Bryon Cave making $110k. In St. Louis, dog!  That's like $3 million out here. And she keeps fairly decent hours - in around 9am, out around 6pm, works an occasional Saturday here or there, stays up late on nights where a brief is due, but those nights are not the norm for her.


So when you say midsize you have to be specific. Midsize in NY, you may still be slaving. Midsize in other cities you may be chillin - and to that end, BigLaw in other cities you may be chillin (relatively speaking, of course).
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on May 06, 2007, 03:55:04 PM
So is life at a midsize firm drastically differen than BIGLAW? are there vault 100 firms that offer an experience that doesn't suck a person's soul out of their body? Anywhere you can get paid 100,000+ and not work 70 hours a week? I don't want to end up the ex-hippie =( hah


Speaking from a NY perspective, the term "midsize firm" over here may be somewhat of a misnomer, b/c it's very possible to be in a "midsize" firm of say, 50 to 75 attorneys and still be working your butt off for significantly less pay. But New York is hardly ever a good metric for what is normal.  In other parts of the country, I have friends on the other end of the spectrum working for quote unquote "BigLaw" in cities like Houston, Miami, Kansas City, & St. Louis where they are not exactly slaving away (believe it or not) and still being generously compensated for their time.  My homegirl in St. Louis is working for Bryon Cave making $110k. In St. Louis, dog!  That's like $3 million out here. And she keeps fairly decent hours - in around 9am, out around 6pm, works an occasional Saturday here or there, stays up late on nights where a brief is due, but those nights are not the norm for her.


So when you say midsize you have to be specific. Midsize in NY, you may still be slaving. Midsize in other cities you may be chillin - and to that end, BigLaw in other cities you may be chillin (relatively speaking, of course).


Word?  Nice...though I don't think St. Louis is for me, something like that would be cool--I'm not averse to the NYC biglaw life, but definitely not forever, maybe a couple of years.  I definitely want to have kids (and be able to see them) b4 I'm 40, preferrably b4 35.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: lawschoolboundlady on May 06, 2007, 03:59:14 PM
So is life at a midsize firm drastically differen than BIGLAW? are there vault 100 firms that offer an experience that doesn't suck a person's soul out of their body? Anywhere you can get paid 100,000+ and not work 70 hours a week? I don't want to end up the ex-hippie =( hah


Speaking from a NY perspective, the term "midsize firm" over here may be somewhat of a misnomer, b/c it's very possible to be in a "midsize" firm of say, 50 to 75 attorneys and still be working your butt off for significantly less pay. But New York is hardly ever a good metric for what is normal.  In other parts of the country, I have friends on the other end of the spectrum working for quote unquote "BigLaw" in cities like Houston, Miami, Kansas City, & St. Louis where they are not exactly slaving away (believe it or not) and still being generously compensated for their time.  My homegirl in St. Louis is working for Bryon Cave making $110k. In St. Louis, dog!  That's like $3 million out here. And she keeps fairly decent hours - in around 9am, out around 6pm, works an occasional Saturday here or there, stays up late on nights where a brief is due, but those nights are not the norm for her.

So when you say midsize you have to be specific. Midsize in NY, you may still be slaving. Midsize in other cities you may be chillin - and to that end, BigLaw in other cities you may be chillin (relatively speaking, of course).


thanks so much for this post! lots of stress just fell off my back. I'm actually planning on attending a school with a stronger reputation in the South and was worried about it. But, from what I've been gathering this is the way to go! same pay, lower cost of living, and better quality of life. Thanks again Avatar!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 06, 2007, 04:19:28 PM
No problem.  And just to add a piece of info for the HBCU crowd, my friend who works in St. Louis at Bryan Cave (which is basically the Cravath of the midwest) graduated from Howard Law School last year.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Justiceforall on May 06, 2007, 04:59:35 PM
Well honestly time is the one thing I can't get back and if I can use the two-three years it would take to pay off my debt working at BIGLAW doing something I'd really want then I would rather have the latter. Money can come easily it is not something that is hard to obtain. Wealth is a mindset more then anything else. After law school the only thing I want to think about is building my experince in criminal defense (i e public defending, criminal law firm etc). I'm single, no kids, and don't plan on getting married until I'm 50 so..I think I can handle that much debt. (Tell you the truth I can probaly pay it off in 3 years anyway not doing big law but that is another story).

You DON'T HAVE to work at BIG LAW if you don't want too! There are other ways out of debt besides selling your soul to Jesus, Christ, and Moses!!!!  (lol jk)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on May 06, 2007, 05:09:06 PM
It's funny how many people who say getting rich is easy and how few who ever get rich. Guess they just didn't bother...
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 06, 2007, 05:31:42 PM
Well honestly time is the one thing I can't get back and if I can use the two-three years it would take to pay off my debt working at BIGLAW doing something I'd really want then I would rather have the latter. Money can come easily it is not something that is hard to obtain.


I don't know about the easily part, but it def is something that can be obtained without slaving for BigLaw, if that's what you mean.  I've met 100's of attorneys but have YET to meet a rich law firm associate, as we understand the plain meaning of that term.  Especially not here in NYC, which ironically has the highest starting salaries for law school grads anywhere in the nation.

The road to financial freedom (aka wealth) is not one that was set up to allow easy access to those of us who were born outside the circle of traditional beneficiaries.  We usually have to work extra hard for what others may be born into - unless your folks already got it like that, in which case, you've already won - congrats.  ;D


Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Justiceforall on May 06, 2007, 09:23:12 PM
It's funny how many people who say getting rich is easy and how few who ever get rich. Guess they just didn't bother...

Well there is a long explanation as to why very few get rich..or more precisley very few obtain "wealth" and a lot of it has nothing to do with people not working hard... I believe however that if wealth is what you want it has to come at a sacrafice..which may include family, friends, other intrest, atleast for a while. I'm not a guru on how to make money but I am one to say if one can think of a plan they can get there. Tell you the truth 95% of people who have the oppurtunity in life to get somewhere don't get where they want to go because they don't have a plan...and that is a sad truth. Not saying getting rich is "easy' however it can be done. When I said wealth is a mindset that is what I ment... the mindset of looking for oppurtunities to make money.  I think they call it "hustlin" :P

Makes me think of that one rap song..

everyday I'm hustlin..everyday I'm hustlin...

:P
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on May 07, 2007, 03:39:46 AM
Well, I agree with the hard work, right mindset and all of that, but still. No matter how hard you work as an associate at Wachtell, you'll still be collecting their lockstep payment. Same thing (largely) applies to people in investment banking even though their salaries is a bit higher etc. If you want to built wealth - and wealth by my definitions is enough money to last generations, not a couple of years, you really need to build something on your own, be it a company, a product to sell etc. Could people of solid intelligence and a decent education do it? Certainly, but it won't be easy, and the failure percentage is very high. Which is why a lot of very clever people opt for the safer, but lower paying, alternatives of a law or bank career for example, where all the money is dangling at the top of a partnership.

That being said, as someone who quickly come into a bit of money, it really shouldn't be your main motivator. Having some cash to spare is nice and fun and all of that, but it doesn't "fix" your life in any way. Pursuit what would make you happy, not what would make you rich.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Tony Montana on May 07, 2007, 06:53:31 AM
Unless being rich makes you happy...  then, main motivator it should be...
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on May 07, 2007, 06:57:50 AM
Never met anyone that fits that label
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Tony Montana on May 07, 2007, 07:03:46 AM
Then you've never lived in da' hood: Where (among some) "get rich or die tryin" is a way of life.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on May 07, 2007, 07:04:46 AM
I have certainly never lived in da hood no.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Tony Montana on May 07, 2007, 07:30:26 AM
Yep... Plus this country was based on ideals of "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness: Thomas Jefferson wrote that term based on John Locke--who expressed a similar concept of "life, liberty, and estate (or property)"

My point?  Happiness defined (at least partially) as wealth is a part of this country's very foundation.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 07, 2007, 07:32:24 AM
bull--if being rich truly made folks happy you wouldn't see so much violence, substance abuse, and mental health problems.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Tony Montana on May 07, 2007, 07:35:58 AM
No one made the generalization that being rich made folks TRULY happy.  Quite frankly "happy" is a subjective and elusive term/concept. 


Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on May 07, 2007, 07:38:02 AM
Studies have shown that rich people are generally happier than poor people.  Makes sense.  Of course money can't make you happy.  But if you're trouble-free to begin with, having more money makes life that much better.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on May 07, 2007, 07:50:44 AM
That may just as well, or even more likely, be caused by the unhappiness of being poor. If you're broke, you are faced with a number of challenges in your everyday life. If you rather compare people who make $150k a year to people who make $2m a year, I doubt you would find similar results, as both categories are affluent enough to take care of whatever basic needs they may have, unlike poor people who have to struggle to make ends meet.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Tony Montana on May 07, 2007, 07:59:43 AM
Right, not worrying about paying ones' bills—and paying for ones’ meals--makes the pursuit of happiness easier.  However, assuring happiness is a different case...that has to ultimately come from within.

And that's no "bull." ;)

Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: pikey on May 07, 2007, 08:00:46 AM
That may just as well, or even more likely, be caused by the unhappiness of being poor. If you're broke, you are faced with a number of challenges in your everyday life. If you rather compare people who make $150k a year to people who make $2m a year, I doubt you would find similar results, as both categories are affluent enough to take care of whatever basic needs they may have, unlike poor people who have to struggle to make ends meet.

Titcr.  As this (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/moneymag_archive/2006/08/01/8382225/index.htm) article indicates, once basic needs are met, more money barely increases happiness.  From $20k to $50k happiness doubles, but there's hardly any increase in happiness from $50k to $90k.  
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Tony Montana on May 07, 2007, 08:06:45 AM

Titcr.  As this (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/moneymag_archive/2006/08/01/8382225/index.htm) article indicates, once basic needs are met, more money barely increases happiness.  From $20k to $50k happiness doubles, but there's hardly any increase in happiness from $50k to $90k.  

Also, one could take an introductory course in Socioeconomics.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 07, 2007, 08:33:40 AM
That may just as well, or even more likely, be caused by the unhappiness of being poor. If you're broke, you are faced with a number of challenges in your everyday life. If you rather compare people who make $150k a year to people who make $2m a year, I doubt you would find similar results, as both categories are affluent enough to take care of whatever basic needs they may have, unlike poor people who have to struggle to make ends meet.

Titcr.  As this (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/moneymag_archive/2006/08/01/8382225/index.htm) article indicates, once basic needs are met, more money barely increases happiness.  From $20k to $50k happiness doubles, but there's hardly any increase in happiness from $50k to $90k.  

exactly
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on May 07, 2007, 08:45:45 AM
Yeah, it increases at a diminishing rate.  Still, it increases.  Even though I'm happy now, I would be even happier if I could drive an Aston Martin V12 Vanquish 8).
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on May 07, 2007, 08:50:32 AM

Titcr.  As this (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/moneymag_archive/2006/08/01/8382225/index.htm) article indicates, once basic needs are met, more money barely increases happiness.  From $20k to $50k happiness doubles, but there's hardly any increase in happiness from $50k to $90k. 

Also, one could take an introductory course in Socioeconomics.

One could, but why would you want to? :p

And yeah, the Vanquish is one sweet car.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Justiceforall on May 07, 2007, 09:22:33 AM
Well, I agree with the hard work, right mindset and all of that, but still. No matter how hard you work as an associate at Wachtell, you'll still be collecting their lockstep payment. Same thing (largely) applies to people in investment banking even though their salaries is a bit higher etc. If you want to built wealth - and wealth by my definitions is enough money to last generations, not a couple of years, you really need to build something on your own, be it a company, a product to sell etc. Could people of solid intelligence and a decent education do it? Certainly, but it won't be easy, and the failure percentage is very high. Which is why a lot of very clever people opt for the safer, but lower paying, alternatives of a law or bank career for example, where all the money is dangling at the top of a partnership.

That being said, as someone who quickly come into a bit of money, it really shouldn't be your main motivator. Having some cash to spare is nice and fun and all of that, but it doesn't "fix" your life in any way. Pursuit what would make you happy, not what would make you rich.

Well again were mixing "hard work as a associate" to "wealth" which honestly if being a partner in a law firm was the key to wealth we would have a lot more people in law school. Many people do feel that 250,000 a year is the max they want to make... others want to be multi millionares, I'm not saying you can't do this in law but to me it is probaly more difficult to obtain wealth through  law rather then just using your own entrepreneurial sense. I wouldn't even think people who look for the "partnership" track are "very clever" in fact that path is given to people already. There is no risks involved with trying to reach the top of a already created hiearchy .. Wealth creation takes risks along with finding your passion and following it (know how many people thought Bill Gates was nuts when he dropped out of Harvard? or Will Smith was crazy rejecting M.I.T., or many other people who dared to venture outside their comfort zones in pursuit of a vision, do you think they had  lots of people who believed in them?   I think our culture is to comfortable with finding "security" in everything...to much fear man to much fear.

Want to know how to get rich?  lesson #1  Educate yourself on how to make money (and most importanly how to keep it)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Justiceforall on May 07, 2007, 09:25:48 AM
Studies have shown that rich people are generally happier than poor people.  Makes sense.  Of course money can't make you happy.  But if you're trouble-free to begin with, having more money makes life that much better.

What studies are these? I know money will never make me happy..happiness is a choice..when you wake up every morning you can choose to be happy or not.. seeking external validation is a thrist that will never go away.  Personaly I just want access...money gets you access to many diffrent things..(sadly the global economic system is built this way) Plus lets face it..I'm not going to deny the pursuit of power, money and respect is on my brain. But don't make it the end all be all of your existance on earth.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Justiceforall on May 07, 2007, 09:34:38 AM
Funny I find this article after talking about those who dared to venture outside of a already created path.

http://www.askmen.com/money/successful_150/160_success.html
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on May 07, 2007, 09:43:50 AM
Studies have shown that rich people are generally happier than poor people.  Makes sense.  Of course money can't make you happy.  But if you're trouble-free to begin with, having more money makes life that much better.

What studies are these?

Lol I actually did take a class on socioeconomics (what...say something Miss P/Qui Ju ;)), and it was one of the studies we read.  I don't recall who it was by.  But Moni's article probably lists a similar one.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on May 07, 2007, 11:48:34 AM
Want to know how to get rich?  lesson #1  Educate yourself on how to make money (and most importanly how to keep it)

I am rich, yet showboating wasn't the purpose of my post. You speak as if there's a hundred easy ways for anyone to become rich, or even to make $250k and they just have to figure out which one they'll bother pursuing. Reality is, it doesn't work like that. If you want to be an entrepreneur, go for it, but do realize that the people who succeed in this field generally have way different qualifications than the people who succeed in law business. Even the fundamental nature of business management where you have to be exceptionally risk willing rules out a huge majority of successful lawyers who function based on being very risk averse.

Looking at anecdotal evidence of a few people who chose to drop out of Harvard and became successful isn't really relevant, and it's rather counter-productive if aimed as advice. Of every Harvard dropout that has become successful there's a thousand Harvard drop-outs who made the worst decision of their lives. Could be I'm putting too much into what you're saying, but the essence I get is that you feel anyone who bothers will be successful, yet life doesn't work like that either.

More difficult to attain wealth through law than by your own business? No. Not even close, the most difficult, risky and challenging thing you can ever do is to gamble your life savings on your own concept. Getting rich as a lawyer (and let's be honest, a $2m a year paycheck as a partner will make you rich) is a calculated process you will more or less have full control over. Getting rich as an entrepreneur is a gamble where you have a 99.99% chance of failure. And if you gambled big on your first try, there will be no such thing as a second chance.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Justiceforall on May 07, 2007, 12:37:32 PM
Want to know how to get rich?  lesson #1  Educate yourself on how to make money (and most importanly how to keep it)

I am rich, yet showboating wasn't the purpose of my post. You speak as if there's a hundred easy ways for anyone to become rich, or even to make $250k and they just have to figure out which one they'll bother pursuing. Reality is, it doesn't work like that. If you want to be an entrepreneur, go for it, but do realize that the people who succeed in this field generally have way different qualifications than the people who succeed in law business. Even the fundamental nature of business management where you have to be exceptionally risk willing rules out a huge majority of successful lawyers who function based on being very risk averse.

Looking at anecdotal evidence of a few people who chose to drop out of Harvard and became successful isn't really relevant, and it's rather counter-productive if aimed as advice. Of every Harvard dropout that has become successful there's a thousand Harvard drop-outs who made the worst decision of their lives. Could be I'm putting too much into what you're saying, but the essence I get is that you feel anyone who bothers will be successful, yet life doesn't work like that either.

More difficult to attain wealth through law than by your own business? No. Not even close, the most difficult, risky and challenging thing you can ever do is to gamble your life savings on your own concept. Getting rich as a lawyer (and let's be honest, a $2m a year paycheck as a partner will make you rich) is a calculated process you will more or less have full control over. Getting rich as an entrepreneur is a gamble where you have a 99.99% chance of failure. And if you gambled big on your first try, there will be no such thing as a second chance.

well honestly from the many testimonies I have read becoming rich was more positive attitude, determination, persistence, and a dream.. a good example is a friend of mine who told me a story of this woman from Pakistan..

Quote
There's a woman with an IQ of about 90 who moved from Pakistan at the age of 40. My mom hired her to clean the kitchen for $80 three years ago. During one of her breaks, this woman had a conversation with my mom (in Urdu, the native tongue...so obviously I couldn't understand---she doesn't speak English) about something she wanted to do: open up her own business.

My mom told me, "She's an idiot! If only she knew how hard it is to live in this world. She has no idea how hard it is to make money. I mean, what are we? #3 most expensive cost of living in the country?"

This woman was persistent. She didn't give up. She went to over 300 people to borrow money. She asked people back in Pakistan. She went to every bank in the DC Metro area. Some offered $100, others $15,000. After 6 months, she bought a struggling Dollar Store in a bad area off of Route 1 for $95,000.

Where is she now? She will soon become a millionare. She now has several franchises, has managers running the stores for her, and is pursuing purchasing other franchises. Oh, and she bought a BIGGER house than my mom and has paid off half of it. My mom is a Ph.D. in Chemistry and one of the higest paid government employees at the US Patent & Trademark Office. This woman is one of those sheltered women from Pakistan; she did not go to elementary school---she doesn't even know how to read.

Now as this woman nuts?  Did she get lucky? or did she have a plan and pursued it?  I'm not saying everyone can be wealthy, I'm not saying that you are guarnteed success, what I am saying is if you have a deep personal conviction to do something then do it..don't let negative thinking, peoples limited beliefs or the whole 99.9% nonsense people always throw at those who are in the pursuit of their goals deter you.  Gamble your life savings? who says you have to gamble your life savings on anything?  You don't have to put all your eggs in one basket (and that in itself is bad advice). I always believe everyone should have a college degree in a trade of their choosing to atleast have some sort of stable employment while they pursue other areas (one of the reasons why I want a law degree I see it as a stepping stone not "the rest of my life")  I understand the pragmatist perspective but in all honesty if you have the resources, time, and patience then by all means go for it.

In fact most people sorry to say seem to never get anywhere in life because they are afraid to do the one thing that seperates the winners from the losers

trying.

Justice
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on May 07, 2007, 01:23:54 PM
well honestly from the many testimonies I have read becoming rich was more positive attitude, determination, persistence, and a dream.. a good example is a friend of mine who told me a story of this woman from Pakistan..
I don't believe in your testimonies. I don't know, and have never heard of, a single person who got rich from positive attitude, determination or persistence without having skills, knowledge and contacts.

Quote
Now as this woman nuts?
This is the wrong question. What you should ask yourself is; "Does this woman exist?" And I'm not even saying it isn't possible, there's almost 7 billion people in the world, did 3 or 4 of those people get rich by pure randomness, luck or whatever? Most certainly. But if you want to hear stories like this one, go to any given Multi-Level-Marketing recruiting meeting and you'll hear about hundreds of these people, with one trait in common. Not a single one of them can be traced and verified the truth of it.

Quote
what I am saying is if you have a deep personal conviction to do something then do it..
By all means. But you'd be a fool to not consider the consequences of failure. If you @#!* up, and end up in personal bankruptcy at the age of 32, you pretty much screwed over your life. There's no restart button on life, just a game-over screen.

Quote
don't let negative thinking, peoples limited beliefs or the whole 99.9% nonsense people always throw at those who are in the pursuit of their goals deter you.
Deter you? No. Consider the very real possibility you will just be reinforcing that statistic? Yes.

Quote
Gamble your life savings? who says you have to gamble your life savings on anything?  You don't have to put all your eggs in one basket (and that in itself is bad advice). I always believe everyone should have a college degree in a trade of their choosing to atleast have some sort of stable employment while they pursue other areas (one of the reasons why I want a law degree I see it as a stepping stone not "the rest of my life")  I understand the pragmatist perspective but in all honesty if you have the resources, time, and patience then by all means go for it.
Look, I don't know if we're talking past eachother, but as long as we're talking about self-starting as an entrepreneur, going your own way - unless you're a trust fund baby, you will have to put all your eggs in that one basket, because you're not going to have five million eggs, you're going to have a few thousand eggs. And you need all those eggs to have any chance at getting a chicken farm, right? The old mantra "You got to spend to earn" is twice as true for any self-starter, and reality is that pretty much everyone who stats a business on their own will run several years in the red before they start making profits. Myself, I was more than a million dollars in debt before I started making a profit, and if *&^% had hit the fan at that time, and the creditors had forced me to personal bankruptcy I would still be working as a store clerk giving away 80% of my salary to a debt management program. I'm really not trying to talk people out of gambling on going their own way, you just need to realize that it's a big risk, and the consequences of failure are not equal to being fired from a law firm, the consequences are serious buttfuckage.

But, since the topic is life as an associate, this really is a digression from the thread :)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Kirk Lazarus on May 07, 2007, 04:04:12 PM
How does one become a rainmaker?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Justiceforall on May 07, 2007, 05:22:05 PM
Quote
well honestly from the many testimonies I have read becoming rich was more positive attitude, determination, persistence, and a dream.. a good example is a friend of mine who told me a story of this woman from Pakistan..
I don't believe in your testimonies. I don't know, and have never heard of, a single person who got rich from positive attitude, determination or persistence without having skills, knowledge and contacts.

Okay so you can't say these people don't exist since you have never met them. (which I've met a couple)

Quote
Quote
Now as this woman nuts?
This is the wrong question. What you should ask yourself is; "Does this woman exist?" And I'm not even saying it isn't possible, there's almost 7 billion people in the world, did 3 or 4 of those people get rich by pure randomness, luck or whatever? Most certainly. But if you want to hear stories like this one, go to any given Multi-Level-Marketing recruiting meeting and you'll hear about hundreds of these people, with one trait in common. Not a single one of them can be traced and verified the truth of it.

nothing in the testimony was pure random or luck..it was based off of finding a oppurtunity and capitalizing on it. Hence I said with is a "mindstate" because when you have the proper mindstate you are more inclined to find oppurtunities to create wealth..a old biblical passage states "my people perish because of lack of knowledge" it is true..if you have a logical screen that removes all indictators that signal money making oppurtunities then you will not become wealthy. It seems you always point out the areas where people don't make money, have failed, or have wasted their lives in bad decesions and taking "risks" where I point out the contrary. Perhaps we have two diffrent mindsets.

Quote
Quote
what I am saying is if you have a deep personal conviction to do something then do it..
By all means. But you'd be a fool to not consider the consequences of failure. If you @#!* up, and end up in personal bankruptcy at the age of 32, you pretty much screwed over your life. There's no restart button on life, just a game-over screen.


Well in all honesty thats why I think everyone should have a stable form of income (hence I'm going to law school..i e if my "dreams" don't work out I can still practice law). So I have taken failure into consideration and in fact I'm not afraid of it..if anything it may bring me another oppurtunity;however, I believe that I can become very succesful and quite frankly 90% of the battle is believing it can be done.



Quote
Quote
Gamble your life savings? who says you have to gamble your life savings on anything?  You don't have to put all your eggs in one basket (and that in itself is bad advice). I always believe everyone should have a college degree in a trade of their choosing to atleast have some sort of stable employment while they pursue other areas (one of the reasons why I want a law degree I see it as a stepping stone not "the rest of my life")  I understand the pragmatist perspective but in all honesty if you have the resources, time, and patience then by all means go for it.
Look, I don't know if we're talking past eachother, but as long as we're talking about self-starting as an entrepreneur, going your own way - unless you're a trust fund baby, you will have to put all your eggs in that one basket, because you're not going to have five million eggs, you're going to have a few thousand eggs. And you need all those eggs to have any chance at getting a chicken farm, right? The old mantra "You got to spend to earn" is twice as true for any self-starter, and reality is that pretty much everyone who stats a business on their own will run several years in the red before they start making profits. Myself, I was more than a million dollars in debt before I started making a profit, and if sh*t had hit the fan at that time, and the creditors had forced me to personal bankruptcy I would still be working as a store clerk giving away 80% of my salary to a debt management program. I'm really not trying to talk people out of gambling on going their own way, you just need to realize that it's a big risk, and the consequences of failure are not equal to being fired from a law firm, the consequences are serious buttfuckage.

But, since the topic is life as an associate, this really is a digression from the thread :)





Well my answer is to not put yourself into a position where you risk bankruptcy. When I say take "risk" I don't mean take risk that can leave you financially incapacitated if something doesn't work out in your favor. (I mean do people who go to Vegas bet their house,car, life savings  on one crap shoot?) more then likely they bet the money they already have in abundance and don't mind losing (unless you have a addiction to gambling which then we can argue you are not acting rationally). I admire at least you are bringing in the "chances" and "stakes" of "going it alone"  because it broadens the discussion. (You even offered your own personal testimony which I'm thankful for). I am not advocating "going it alone". I am advocating surrounding yourself with people who have been on the bottom and are now at the top, I'm advocating increasing ones knowledge on the SKILL of building wealth, I'm also advocating that rich people are not all "lucky" or "trust fund babies"  Since I have two self made millionaires in my own family who immigrated into this country with nothing. (I recall a story when my uncle used to catch a bed at the YMCA now he runs a multimillion dollar construction company...I wonder if he was seven years in the red? I also know another six figure something aire who will be in the 7 figures in a couple years..used to work corporate work until he left at around age 32..now 40 years old wonder if he was in the red)   I have seen it before my very eyes..and tell you the truth 99% of the people in the world have never seen, nor will ever see or here such testimonies or knowledge exist.  In conclusion I reiterate I'm not saying that you are guaranteed success but I am saying that the picture your painting of pessimism is exaggerated given that the only thing you have offered is a statistic, your own personal testimony, probablities, but there are many diffrent factors as to why people fail in life and it is not just because "your chances of winning are slim"  building your own buisness is not synamous with the lottery.

Justice
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on May 07, 2007, 05:46:55 PM
Well my answer is to not put yourself into a position where you risk bankruptcy.

And how would you do that, unless your daddy is a multi-millionaire supporting your project? There's three places to get money for starting up something; daddy, banks and investors. The latter two are not very forgiving of failures.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on May 07, 2007, 05:56:18 PM
Dood.  Didn't you know that getting a 180 on the LSAT (which he will) wins you a million-dollar prize?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on May 07, 2007, 06:00:53 PM
That's like, awesome.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Justiceforall on May 07, 2007, 09:19:43 PM
See no need to have such a "high risk" mentality..check out this article just posted

http://www.askmen.com/money/career_150/171_career.html
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: lawschoolboundlady on May 08, 2007, 01:19:19 AM
so in law school, do people gain knowledge on how to do stuff like start their own company/invest? I'm a non traditional student that doesn't know anything about money lol
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on May 08, 2007, 02:37:44 AM
so in law school, do people gain knowledge on how to do stuff like start their own company/invest? I'm a non traditional student that doesn't know anything about money lol

Generally not, but some of the things you learn are applicable of course. Starting a company inherently involved a lot of legal issues, and while it's common to hire legal assistance, I'm certain there would be good benefit from having a law school background yourself as well.

As for Justice, I'm not sure to what degree I'd take business advice from AskMen. I'm not trying to say that my way is the only way, I'm sure there's no limits to what routes people have taken to success, but don't believe in any of the fairy tales. Just because it happened to one person doesn't mean it will for others. Keeping your day job is a good idea by all means, as long as it's possible, but will that really be possible beyond the initial start-up phase? When you start getting customers, those customers will expect to be able to get in touch with you, and turning off your phone to keep your secret agent status hidden from the boss isn't going to do you any good etc. But yeah, I'm sure there are ways, I don't know all the recipes, just one :)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Justiceforall on May 08, 2007, 05:53:07 AM
so in law school, do people gain knowledge on how to do stuff like start their own company/invest? I'm a non traditional student that doesn't know anything about money lol

Generally not, but some of the things you learn are applicable of course. Starting a company inherently involved a lot of legal issues, and while it's common to hire legal assistance, I'm certain there would be good benefit from having a law school background yourself as well.

As for Justice, I'm not sure to what degree I'd take business advice from AskMen. I'm not trying to say that my way is the only way, I'm sure there's no limits to what routes people have taken to success, but don't believe in any of the fairy tales. Just because it happened to one person doesn't mean it will for others. Keeping your day job is a good idea by all means, as long as it's possible, but will that really be possible beyond the initial start-up phase? When you start getting customers, those customers will expect to be able to get in touch with you, and turning off your phone to keep your secret agent status hidden from the boss isn't going to do you any good etc. But yeah, I'm sure there are ways, I don't know all the recipes, just one :)

Which brings me to my original point there is a abundance of opportunities to make money and you are correct and right in your analysis...but lets be honest it is your own analysis based off of your research, your own testimony, and the people you have encountered that have given you the belief systems you have (or at least influenced those belief systems). Understanding that, one can conclude the best way to learn how to obtain wealth is to research it yourself and ask advice from those who have "made it".  (and I don't mean those people selling pyramid schemes but real self made millionaires which nobody ever seems to notice walking in the grocery store or you meet at a social gathering..heck I met a very successful entrepreneur working out at my gym and it turned into a great friendship).  Perhaps I'm just being the young, idealistic, 23 year old with dreams of striking it rich. :) ;D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Tony Montana on May 08, 2007, 06:21:48 AM
Well my answer is to not put yourself into a position where you risk bankruptcy.

And how would you do that, unless your daddy is a multi-millionaire supporting your project? There's three places to get money for starting up something; daddy, banks and investors. The latter two are not very forgiving of failures.

Angel investors and Venture capitalists assume high risk(s)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on May 08, 2007, 06:28:34 AM
so in law school, do people gain knowledge on how to do stuff like start their own company/invest? I'm a non traditional student that doesn't know anything about money lol

Lol we come to law school to avoid that.  That's b-school.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Justiceforall on May 08, 2007, 06:40:05 AM
so in law school, do people gain knowledge on how to do stuff like start their own company/invest? I'm a non traditional student that doesn't know anything about money lol

LOL, no in fact it seems that law school now a days seem to be assembly lines for big law with all the debt you rack up.. what to know about money get to a library and read!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on May 08, 2007, 07:06:49 AM
Which brings me to my original point there is a abundance of opportunities to make money and you are correct and right in your analysis...but lets be honest it is your own analysis based off of your research, your own testimony, and the people you have encountered that have given you the belief systems you have (or at least influenced those belief systems). Understanding that, one can conclude the best way to learn how to obtain wealth is to research it yourself and ask advice from those who have "made it".  (and I don't mean those people selling pyramid schemes but real self made millionaires which nobody ever seems to notice walking in the grocery store or you meet at a social gathering..heck I met a very successful entrepreneur working out at my gym and it turned into a great friendship).  Perhaps I'm just being the young, idealistic, 23 year old with dreams of striking it rich. :) ;D
Nothing wrong with being idealistic, and I think that a general level we sort of agree. It's hard to make a recipe on how to be successful, because everyone has their own skills and experiences, and each will have to find the right way to go. And of course, there's a million different businesses. If you are going to produce, sell or import/export goods, you're going to need a fairly large starting budget, and thus high risk, where as if you are going to be selling a service of some sorts, you won't need a major budget, but you'll need very strong knowledge (or be willing to pay big bucks to hire the people who have this knowledge).

That being said, don't knock on people who made money from pyramid schemes. I am very comfortable with this type of business, unethical as it is. I just look at it as an extra tax on stupidity. If people are dumb enough to give away their money; by all means allow them to :)

Quote
Angel investors and Venture capitalists assume high risk(s)
True, but the fact that they realize they're taking risks doesn't mean they appreciate losing money, especially not if you can be held accountable for it. They will most certainly have a company BBQ with your ass on the menu :)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Tony Montana on May 08, 2007, 08:42:27 AM

Quote
Angel investors and Venture capitalists assume high risk(s)
True, but the fact that they realize they're taking risks doesn't mean they appreciate losing money, especially not if you can be held accountable for it. They will most certainly have a company BBQ with your ass on the menu :)

The inherent structure--of these types of investments--is the high risk/high reward.  For practical purposes, no one appreciate losing money; however, VC/AI assume the risk of losing money for the hope of high gains and/or an equity partnership.  Considering the risk they assume: I don't see how they "most certainly have a company BBQ with your ass on the menu."   
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on May 08, 2007, 09:00:17 AM
As much as they do assume risk when going into such a partnership, they do also expect success. That should be pretty obvious. You contact investors with a business plan, a strategy and all of that, and you sell your company as a product. The product they buy into is one that you have presented in terms of success. If you fail to attain that success, that really isn't their problem. You can argue as much as you'd like that it's not fair, and that they should accept losses as they come, but this is reality, and it's real money. Life isn't fair, and the people who paid your bills aren't going to like that you wasted their money.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Tony Montana on May 08, 2007, 09:23:18 AM
Of course they hope for success; but so do individual investors that invest in the stock market.  The point is that both aforementioned groups accept the risk that the investment might fail... This is the nature of this type of investment.  They can't, however, come after you for losing their investments--like a bank (loan) can.   
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on May 08, 2007, 09:55:41 AM
Well, that depends as well. Granted, I can only speak from a Norwegian perspective, and it's possible there are more safeguards in the US system although that would surprise me. Here it is not uncommon that money invested by outsiders come with strings attached that you may be held reliable for etc.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Tony Montana on May 08, 2007, 10:10:36 AM
There is an agreed contract.  That said, what puts the risk in venture capital is the fact that: if the invested company goes belly up, then the VC's investment is lost.  VCs makes up for these losses by requiring a high ROR from companies.  High stakes stuff  ;)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 09, 2007, 02:25:45 PM
glad to see you cats thinking outside the box, b/c that's exactly what I plan to do when I get out there.  we have to work for ourselves or we will get nowhere fast.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Tony Montana on May 10, 2007, 06:51:39 AM
Absolutely! Working for the man is just the means...
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Justiceforall on May 10, 2007, 12:19:10 PM
glad to see you cats thinking outside the box, b/c that's exactly what I plan to do when I get out there.  we have to work for ourselves or we will get nowhere fast.

EXACTLY..and that is the problem if you are always going on the "safe" path working for someone else you will always be stuck in the mediocrity..lets face it..those who treaded to unknown territory had to risk failure, fear, frustration, etc but I believe that if you stay busy, stay working, think innovative idea, find a nich, and learn the art of selling (which is the bases for any succesful buisness) understand what people value, keep things positive...and stay informed (and out of trouble) you will be succesful. (just don't forget to share your wisdom when you get on "top" never forget to give back...universial rule!)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on May 10, 2007, 12:28:35 PM
I don't think the V10 partners cashing in $5m+ a year feels mediocre :p
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 10, 2007, 05:00:40 PM
"If you told me three years ago that I would be working at a commercial law firm, I never would have believed it," confides "Karen," a second-year associate at a large New York firm. Karen, who requested anonymity for this article, is at the pinnacle of the legal profession: A graduate of one of the country's top law schools, she earns six figures representing corporate clients on challenging legal matters. But Karen's job represents a compromise of the dreams that led her to become a lawyer. "I entered law school with the intention of taking a public interest position in the field of human rights," she says. What changed her mind was the prospect of repaying $145,000 in student loans and $20,000 in credit card debt she accumulated during three years of law school. "I felt I had no other choice than to look for a job in the private sector," she says. "I have friends with this kind of debt who chose not to go to law firms," Karen adds. "But they either have someone providing financial support or a very different psychological relationship to this debt. Personally, I find it nerve wracking."

Karen's story is one of 400 accounts the ABA Law Student Division received when it solicited on its web site in early April "personal experiences or hardships relating to ... law school debt." On April 27 and 28, a delegation of law student officers took those stories to Washington, D.C., and visited the offices of 32 members of Congress. Their mission: to drive home the message that the high cost of law school loans is preventing a new generation of lawyers from entering public interest law. As one student account noted, "Not everyone in law school wants to make a lot of money. Some people see law as a means to getting people to listen, changing our great nation's public policy, and carving out a life we can look back on with pride." But at what personal cost, many are wondering. Take, for example, the typical legal aid lawyer, who earns a salary of $36,000, or $27,000 after taxes. If he has $100,000 in outstanding loans on a 10-year repayment plan, he will pay out $1,065 each month on student loans, leaving just $1,185 for all other expenses, notes Philip Schrag, a professor at Georgetown University Law Center and an expert in student debt issues. Schrag, along with ABA past president Robert Hirshon, current president Michael Greco, Rep. Rick Renzi (R-Ariz.), and former Law Student Division chair Chris Jeter, spoke at a program on student debt and loan forgiveness at Georgetown on April 26. The event, a kickoff to the ABA's related lobbying activities on Capitol Hill, was sponsored by the ABA Law Student Division, Young Lawyers Division, and Section of Legal Education and Admissions to the Bar.

At the heart of the problem is the rising cost of tuition, which has "risen much more dramatically than the cost of living," says Schrag, author of "Repay As You Earn: The Flawed Government Program to Help Students Have Public Service Careers." From 1992 to 2002, as the cost of living rose 28%, tuition rose 100% for in-state residents at public schools, 134% for out-of-state residents at public schools, and 76% at private schools. Law students currently graduate with an average debt load of $66,810 from public schools and $97,763 from private schools, according to Schrag. That debt is manageable on the median law firm starting salary of $90,000, but it becomes overwhelming for government and nonprofit lawyers, who draw median salaries of $42,000 and $36,000, respectively, he adds.

What are the alternatives? More than 80 law schools and eight states have started loan repayment assistance programs (LRAPs) to forgive the loans of graduates entering public interest or public service work. These programs lower interest rates on loans, defer loan payments, or forgive a percentage of loans for every year a lawyer works in a public-interest-related legal job. Their drawback, Schrag says, is that they have strict income limits: Lawyers can lose eligibility for a program after receiving a couple of salary raises. And many schools do not yet have these programs or have only a limited amount of funds to dispense. For broader relief, the ABA has been lobbying for changes in two federal loan programs: raising the annual limit on Stafford unsubsidized loans from $10,000 to $30,000 and improving the usability of the Income-Contingent Repayment (ICR) option of the William D. Ford Federal Direct Lending Program, which currently forgives federal student loans after 25 years of public service.

The Stafford program allows graduate and professional students to borrow $8,500 in subsidized loans and $10,000 in unsubsidized loans annually — an amount that Congress has not increased since 1992. Because $18,500 is insufficient to cover tuition at all but a few law schools, law students are forced to make up the difference by taking out loans from private lenders, which charge exorbitant interest rates. What makes the situation particularly unfair to proponents of law student loan reform is that the Department of Education raised the annual Stafford unsubsidized loan limit for medical and other health care students to $30,000 in 1999. The ABA argues that all graduate and professional students should receive the same treatment.

The ABA also is urging that student loans be forgiven after 15 years of public service and that the ICR program's marriage penalty be eliminated. Currently, the program limits annual loan payments to 20% of a lawyer's income, but married lawyers must pay 20% of their joint income. Whatever is unpaid each year is added to the principal. "You may actually have to pay more over time," Schrag cautions. The most significant drawback to the ICR program in its current state is its 25-year length. "Lawyers balk at paying off their student loans at the same time they are paying for their children's college education," Schrag says. The ABA House of Delegates made lobbying for these changes in the law a priority item in 2003. Two years earlier, then-ABA president Hirshon established a Commission on Loan Repayment and Forgiveness. It produced a report in 2003 titled "Lifting the Burden: Law Student Debt As a Barrier to Public Service," which included 19 recommendations to the ABA, states, and law schools.

http://www.abanet.org/lsd/studentlawyer/oct05/capitoleffort.html
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: e-redwood on May 17, 2007, 07:44:20 PM
C.R.E.A.M - Wu-Tang
Bills, Bills, Bills - Destiny's Child

I say just get it however you can get it!  But personally, like Avatar....I want my own!!! ;D

Real estate has been real good to a sister but hell I'm trying to get all I can get!!!  America's just got way to much of it!!!!!!!!

CASH!!!!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on June 01, 2007, 12:58:54 PM
I just found out that I'm worth $225/hour.  Wow.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on June 01, 2007, 01:36:14 PM
Skadden Cristal Boy: An Alternate Account

We've received a correction of sorts to our earlier item, about a hard-partying summer associate at Skadden in New York. We have no way of verifying whether the original version or the new version of the story is correct, since neither came directly from the summer associate in question. But the latest version does come from a fellow Skadden / New York summer associate, so we're inclined to credit it.

In some ways it places the SA's conduct in a better light; in some ways, worse. Here you go:

    1. Better: Contrary to the claim of "several bottles of Cristal," there was only ONE bottle of Cristal, plus "five other bottles -- standard bottle service at a club."

    2. Worse: The total tab was not a "multi-hundred dollar bill," but a grand total of $3,000.

    3. Neutral: Two confirmed details from the original account: the story is from this year; and no permanent associates or recruiting personnel were at the event (it was "an after-after party").

    4. In case you were wondering: YES, the firm paid the cool three-grand bill.

Wow. Skadden takes an early lead in the "Best Summer Program" sweepstakes. Party at Four Times Square!!!

(And not just 'cause all those Vogue hotties are in the house...)

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/06/skadden_cristal_boy_an_alterna.php

Original: http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/06/summer_associate_of_the_day_sk.php
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on June 01, 2007, 01:56:47 PM
Saw this earlier.  Bout time to make that call to Mr. Flom!   Especially since I just realized that since I'm salaried I'm only getting paid for 24 hours for Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday.  That in spite of the fact that I actually worked 44 and will spend Saturday in a settlement conference.  Woe is me.

A convo with my boy after I lamented my circumstances:

Friend: Yeah, you will get tired of being bent over and having something stuck up your ass. Can't hold that position forever.

Me: I better get used to it -- at least here I'm getting screwed by attorneys of conscience. Next summer I'll get similarly screwed at a corporate firm, albeit for 10x the money.

Friend: So you'll be a whore instead of a rape victim?

Me: I had it coming. Just look how I was dressed in that conservative navy suit and tie. I was asking for it.

***Here is where I would put a disclaimer that I, in no way, condone or make light of rape. But people will probably female dog and call me insensitive anyway. So instead, here I put a preemptive "lighten the F up."
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 01, 2007, 02:36:39 PM
I just found out that I'm worth $225/hour.  Wow.

did you get your paycheck???  U mad yet?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on June 01, 2007, 03:37:52 PM
I just found out that I'm worth $225/hour.  Wow.

did you get your paycheck???  U mad yet?

Nope, just our billing sheet.  I have no idea when I'm getting paid...but trust me, I'm pre-mad at the taxes.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on June 01, 2007, 03:52:21 PM
So...I just got an assignment...that's due Monday.  BUT, it's pretty interesting and, even better, is with the firm's first black partner (who's very cool).  So I suppose a little weekend Lexis research is worth working with him.  We just chatted for an hour.  Of course, he's headed home and I'm still at the office...but whatever.  lol
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on June 01, 2007, 04:03:55 PM
Taken from NYTimes article on David Lat, which just struck me as a bit, well, obvious...

Quote
When he was told to perform tasks like creating a "privilege log," essentially a list of hundreds of thousands of documents, she said he looked unhappy.

No, really?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on June 01, 2007, 04:10:14 PM
Yeah, that's what paralegals and contract attorneys are for.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on June 01, 2007, 04:12:04 PM
Or, in his case, Yale-educated Wachtell associates.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on June 01, 2007, 04:14:53 PM
When Bankers Break Down!
Email Brawl Exposes the Brutal Hours and Boring Work Of Junior Investment Bankers

The extreme hours and often menial work that characterize the lives of many junior investment bankers were on display last night in an exchange between a first-year analyst and a more senior associate at a middle market investment bank. It all began with a note at 6:04 PM. Although the original back-and-forth was strictly between two colleagues, the emails were forwarded outside the firm by a later recipient. As these things are wont to do, the mêlée very quickly spread through investment banking circles.

The spat began after Roger asked Billy (we’re changing the names because we have been unable to reach the people involved) to put together a working group list for him within an hour. Working group lists are used by investment bankers and law firms to collect and disseminate the contact information of professionals working on a transaction. Putting the lists together is not difficult but it is notoriously boring work. Although Roger’s request is rather straight-forward, Billy objected to the request and told Roger he thought it sounded “testy.”

“There is really no reason to get testy, Roger,” Billy said. “I was here all night, you know that, and I am curious as to why you are passing this off to me. I am aware that it takes 5 minutes to do, but you should know there is a difference between ‘pushing back’ and wondering why (for the 2nd time this week) you are giving me in particular a WGL. I thought that’s what staffing is for.”

[The rest of the exchange, after the jump]

It seems Roger didn’t appreciate being spoken to like this by a subordinate. In the hierarchical culture of investment banks, junior staffers are not expected to accuse superiors of being testy, complain about the amount of hour they work or mention that they are being improperly staffed on projects.

“There is ABSOLUTELY a reason for me to be upset and let me be clear that you grossly misunderstand how things work,” Roger replied. “In banking all nighters are part of the job, not an excuse for an attitude. I spent most of my weekend in the office and have been at work past 3am for 3 days in a row. I’m mature enough to understand that my superiors have their own problems and me not getting too much sleep is not something I should be advertising/whining about. Learn this.”

The objection to being staffed on the project drew a particularly strong reaction.

“As far as staffing is concerned, do NOT tell me how the system works,” Roger wrote. “If anyone in this firm has a short assignment which they need help on and assistants are gone, they can and will ask you. Unless you want a crap reputation, your attitude to work at this point in your career should be thanks, give me more. Nothing else. Thanks for the wgl.”

In the final email, Billy initially refuses to back down. To the contrary, he seems to be the type who believes that every moment is an opportunity to learn something. And that this moment is a particularly good one to educate Roger on the polite way to interact with people.

“I am willing to take the high road here and not bicker about this any more. However, under NO circumstances will you to speak to me like that, EVER again,” Billy wrote. “Outranking me is one thing, but condescending is completely unnecessary and insulting is absolutely unacceptable. I sincerely hope you take that to heart immediately.”

By the end of the message, however, Billy begins to sound quasi (i.e. not) apologetic. “I apologize for the misunderstanding, and I have said my peace,” he writes.

A short time later the exchange began to circulate to outsiders. It spread rapidly to investment bankers from coast to coast.

The little brouhaha seems to be indicative of the pressures of working inside an investment bank—long hours combined with work that is sometimes “mind numbingly boring” and sometimes involves hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars, if you're a first-year, holding your ankles for extended periods of time—can ignite short tempers. One investment banker familiar with the email described his work schedule as a junior analyst as “nearly Hobbesian.”

“It was nasty, brutish and very, very long,” he explained.

Which sounds a bit like the trail of emails exchanged last night between the two bankers we are calling Billy and Roger.

Calls placed to the involved parties this afternoon were not returned.

http://www.dealbreaker.com/2007/05/when_bankers_break_downan_emai.php
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on June 01, 2007, 04:15:18 PM
Billy should be fired.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on June 01, 2007, 04:19:01 PM
I like Billy. Having balls is a good thing.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 01, 2007, 05:00:45 PM
So...I just got an assignment...that's due Monday.  BUT, it's pretty interesting and, even better, is with the firm's first black partner (who's very cool).  So I suppose a little weekend Lexis research is worth working with him.  We just chatted for an hour.  Of course, he's headed home and I'm still at the office...but whatever.  lol

cognitive dissonance.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 01, 2007, 05:02:34 PM
I just found out that I'm worth $225/hour.  Wow.

did you get your paycheck???  U mad yet?

Nope, just our billing sheet.  I have no idea when I'm getting paid...but trust me, I'm pre-mad at the taxes.

y'all negroes didn't get your paycheck and you didn't follow up?  no wonder we as a people are poor.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 01, 2007, 06:03:25 PM
Skadden Cristal Boy: An Alternate Account

We've received a correction of sorts to our earlier item, about a hard-partying summer associate at Skadden in New York. We have no way of verifying whether the original version or the new version of the story is correct, since neither came directly from the summer associate in question. But the latest version does come from a fellow Skadden / New York summer associate, so we're inclined to credit it.

In some ways it places the SA's conduct in a better light; in some ways, worse. Here you go:

    1. Better: Contrary to the claim of "several bottles of Cristal," there was only ONE bottle of Cristal, plus "five other bottles -- standard bottle service at a club."

    2. Worse: The total tab was not a "multi-hundred dollar bill," but a grand total of $3,000.

    3. Neutral: Two confirmed details from the original account: the story is from this year; and no permanent associates or recruiting personnel were at the event (it was "an after-after party").

    4. In case you were wondering: YES, the firm paid the cool three-grand bill.

Wow. Skadden takes an early lead in the "Best Summer Program" sweepstakes. Party at Four Times Square!!!

(And not just 'cause all those Vogue hotties are in the house...)

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/06/skadden_cristal_boy_an_alterna.php

Original: http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/06/summer_associate_of_the_day_sk.php

Alci you was tostin it up like that, man?  Next time at least invite a brother out or something. ;D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on June 02, 2007, 07:59:57 AM
So...I just got an assignment...that's due Monday.  BUT, it's pretty interesting and, even better, is with the firm's first black partner (who's very cool).  So I suppose a little weekend Lexis research is worth working with him.  We just chatted for an hour.  Of course, he's headed home and I'm still at the office...but whatever.  lol

cognitive dissonance.

Nah.  Well, ask me on Tuesday.

I just found out that I'm worth $225/hour.  Wow.

did you get your paycheck???  U mad yet?

Nope, just our billing sheet.  I have no idea when I'm getting paid...but trust me, I'm pre-mad at the taxes.

y'all negroes didn't get your paycheck and you didn't follow up?  no wonder we as a people are poor.

Lol no one got theirs.  I'm guessing a super pay day is coming up.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on June 02, 2007, 08:01:20 AM
Skadden Cristal Boy: An Alternate Account

We've received a correction of sorts to our earlier item, about a hard-partying summer associate at Skadden in New York. We have no way of verifying whether the original version or the new version of the story is correct, since neither came directly from the summer associate in question. But the latest version does come from a fellow Skadden / New York summer associate, so we're inclined to credit it.

In some ways it places the SA's conduct in a better light; in some ways, worse. Here you go:

    1. Better: Contrary to the claim of "several bottles of Cristal," there was only ONE bottle of Cristal, plus "five other bottles -- standard bottle service at a club."

    2. Worse: The total tab was not a "multi-hundred dollar bill," but a grand total of $3,000.

    3. Neutral: Two confirmed details from the original account: the story is from this year; and no permanent associates or recruiting personnel were at the event (it was "an after-after party").

    4. In case you were wondering: YES, the firm paid the cool three-grand bill.

Wow. Skadden takes an early lead in the "Best Summer Program" sweepstakes. Party at Four Times Square!!!

(And not just 'cause all those Vogue hotties are in the house...)

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/06/skadden_cristal_boy_an_alterna.php

Original: http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/06/summer_associate_of_the_day_sk.php

Alci you was tostin it up like that, man?  Next time at least invite a brother out or something. ;D

Lol I wish.  AND THE FIRM PAID FOR IT.  Ha!  My firm would've been like...yeah, you're on your own there, son.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on June 02, 2007, 11:35:57 AM
Well, it's understandable that the firm pays it I think, although I would expect that he did not get an offer to return next year.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on June 02, 2007, 11:37:38 AM
He's a current summer, so that will remain to be seen.  Although he most likely will get an offer.  Jonas Blank did.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on June 02, 2007, 11:46:49 AM
Skadden's website indicates no employees named Blank and/or Jonas, so I expect that what happened was that he remained employed throughout the summer, but got no offer as first year associate? And I kinda see running your 'mouth' in an e-mail to be somewhat less serious than billing your company $3000 for a party.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on June 02, 2007, 02:39:36 PM
Skadden's website indicates no employees named Blank and/or Jonas, so I expect that what happened was that he remained employed throughout the summer, but got no offer as first year associate? And I kinda see running your 'mouth' in an e-mail to be somewhat less serious than billing your company $3000 for a party.

No, he was there for a couple of years, but recently left to go to a smaller firm.  I think abovethelaw.com had something on him a while ago.

ETA: I'm surprised at how quickly firms remove people from their websites.  At least mine anyway.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on June 02, 2007, 03:10:26 PM
Makes sense, at least if the person leaves the firm for 'problematic' situations, they would want to distance themselves from them quickly. If he was a 2L summer associate in 2003 he can't have been there for long at least.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on June 02, 2007, 03:29:20 PM
Makes sense, at least if the person leaves the firm for 'problematic' situations, they would want to distance themselves from them quickly. If he was a 2L summer associate in 2003 he can't have been there for long at least.

Most people don't leave for problematic reasons.  The turnover in biglaw (esp. at firms like Skadden) is incredibly high.  2-3 years is quite normal.  But Skadden is so huge that they can absorb just about anyone anyway, regardless of the stupid things they do.  So I don't think his situation was considered that big of a deal.  I think other firms (like mine) wouldn't have hired him.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on June 02, 2007, 03:31:19 PM
I hope not... it's sort of sad to see a feminine hygiene product bag like that getting hired just because he's a Havard grad, while perfectly capable candidates from for example NYLS or St. John's get passed over, although they'd be both more suitable and quite possibly more competent.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on June 02, 2007, 03:43:55 PM
I dunno.  He just did one stupid thing.  It's incredibly easy to send stuff to the wrong people.  I'm really paranoid about my work e-mail, and I'm sure he is too now.  So I wouldn't judge him based on that.  Still, most top firms can afford to be selective...but Skadden just needs the bodies.

ETA: Now aquagirl is a whole nother story:
http://ourtakeonwake.blogspot.com/2005_07_01_ourtakeonwake_archive.html
http://www.abovethelaw.com/2006/11/an_update_on_aquagirl_things_a_1.php
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on June 02, 2007, 03:46:38 PM
I'm fine with being judging really. He was stupid with the e-mail, but still the stuff he wrote certainly made his personality shine through.


EDIT; I have an easier time 'accepting' what Aquagirl did than what Jonas Blank did. Certainly, she did something dumb, but the same a-hole-ness isn't present in her mistake.

Still, one has to wonder what makes assumably intelligent people make blunders like this.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on June 02, 2007, 04:00:10 PM
I'm fine with being judging really. He was stupid with the e-mail, but still the stuff he wrote certainly made his personality shine through.


EDIT; I have an easier time 'accepting' what Aquagirl did than what Jonas Blank did. Certainly, she did something dumb, but the same a-hole-ness isn't present in her mistake.

Ah, see assholeness is just generally accepted in law.

Quote
Still, one has to wonder what makes assumably intelligent people make blunders like this.

Lol open bars always lead to endless amusement.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on June 02, 2007, 04:02:32 PM
I guess you need to teach your kids to drink earlier, this 21 year limit ruins future lawyers it seems ;)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on June 02, 2007, 04:09:40 PM
I guess you need to teach your kids to drink earlier, this 21 year limit ruins future lawyers it seems ;)

I agree.  Another stupid remnant of America's puritanical past.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on June 02, 2007, 04:16:00 PM
Do people actually give a *&^% though? It's not like anyone does here, borrow borrow some ID from someone who kinda looks like you, and you're golden at most clubs.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: DDBY on June 02, 2007, 04:18:37 PM
Do people actually give a *&^% though? It's not like anyone does here, borrow borrow some ID from someone who kinda looks like you, and you're golden at most clubs.
Ahh my future clients, like lindsay lohan.  Cha Ching! ;D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on June 02, 2007, 04:21:09 PM
Yeah, like celebrities ever get checked for ID :) I'm sure the bouncer's not gonna know who Lindsay Lohan is :p Other than being the most overrated chick in the history of mankind.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on June 02, 2007, 04:23:29 PM
Do people actually give a *&^% though? It's not like anyone does here, borrow borrow some ID from someone who kinda looks like you, and you're golden at most clubs.

Depends on the area.  Some places are really strict; others not so much.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on June 02, 2007, 04:26:27 PM
Back to topic though, I get the impression you're done with law school, and not 'just' a summer associate... How demanding is your work schedule? As bad as you feared it would be?

Yeah, like celebrities ever get checked for ID :) I'm sure the bouncer's not gonna know who Lindsay Lohan is :p Other than being the most overrated chick in the history of mankind.
Paris Hilton is.  She didn't even graduate High School. 

Well, Paris is dumb, people know it and she knows it - lord knows she's not trying to hide it. Yet, Ms Lohan seems to be under the impression that she's cool and sexy and for some reason moron media keeps feeding that illusion.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on June 03, 2007, 06:45:52 PM
Whoa...Billy should definitely NOT be fired. He handled that stuff in a classy way (esp. at the end.) Billy has the makings of a leader. He never said anything inappropriate and tried to make it a teaching moment. He also noted that hierarchy isn't an excuse for being an ass. I like that cat!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on June 03, 2007, 06:47:45 PM
I like Billy too, but it's certainly a career damaging move. Your superior is always right, sadly.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on June 03, 2007, 07:16:49 PM
Whoa...Billy should definitely NOT be fired. He handled that stuff in a classy way (esp. at the end.) Billy has the makings of a leader. He never said anything inappropriate and tried to make it a teaching moment. He also noted that hierarchy isn't an excuse for being an ass. I like that cat!

Um, your job as a subordinate is not to "teach" me how to give you work.  You just do it.  Offer feedback on the substantive problem, but as far as how I assign stuff to you, just shut up and do it.  I'd fire Billy.  Or give him a very negative evaluation.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: lawschoolboundlady on June 03, 2007, 08:13:05 PM
Are there any BIGLAW firms known for making life liveable for employees? By liveable I mean vacations, not too much overtime, ability to have a family? Do small-midsize firms offer this? What kind of pay do small-midsize firms offer? How easy ( class rank, law review etc required?) is it to get a job with a small-midsize firm coming from a top half tier1 school?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on June 03, 2007, 08:24:11 PM
Are there any BIGLAW firms known for making life liveable for employees? By liveable I mean vacations, not too much overtime, ability to have a family? Do small-midsize firms offer this? What kind of pay do small-midsize firms offer? How easy ( class rank, law review etc required?) is it to get a job with a small-midsize firm coming from a top half tier1 school?

lol no. I suppose I should note that some make it more livable than others. Do a search for family-friendly firms or lifestyle firms or firms that are good for women, and you'll probably find a few.

Alci, that's why I wouldn't want to work for your ass. Too hierarchical. Yes, you can learn things about how to work well with others from subordinates. If people quit letting their egos get in the way, the workplace would be a lot more productive. The reason we have so many subpar managers etc. is because those people can't take constructive criticism from those in a position to know they are terrible managers (i.e., those who work for them.)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 03, 2007, 08:37:17 PM
Are there any BIGLAW firms known for making life liveable for employees? By liveable I mean vacations, not too much overtime, ability to have a family? Do small-midsize firms offer this? What kind of pay do small-midsize firms offer? How easy ( class rank, law review etc required?) is it to get a job with a small-midsize firm coming from a top half tier1 school?

lol no. I suppose I should note that some make it more livable than others. Do a search for family-friendly firms or lifestyle firms or firms that are good for women, and you'll probably find a few.

Alci, that's why I wouldn't want to work for your ass. Too hierarchical. Yes, you can learn things about how to work well with others from subordinates. If people quit letting their egos get in the way, the workplace would be a lot more productive. The reason we have so many subpar managers etc. is because those people can't take constructive criticism from those in a position to know they are terrible managers (i.e., those who work for them.)

this is true but billy went about it in the wrong way and it was neither the time or place.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on June 03, 2007, 08:41:54 PM
Alci, that's why I wouldn't want to work for your ass. Too hierarchical. Yes, you can learn things about how to work well with others from subordinates. If people quit letting their egos get in the way, the workplace would be a lot more productive. The reason we have so many subpar managers etc. is because those people can't take constructive criticism from those in a position to know they are terrible managers (i.e., those who work for them.)

Lol I'm just saying.  This wasn't about bad management.  Both of them had been working long hours on this deal.  Roger needed something done, and Billy was the person he needed to do it.  Billy, being a whiny ass, complained about what he viewed as a menial task instead of just sucking it up for the team and doing what needed to be done.  He needed to be put in his place.  Perhaps Roger could have been nicer, but obviously everyone was at their nerve's end.  But Billy just comes across as one of those incredibly annoying whiny people that just needs to shut up, and he got mad when someone told him to do it.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on June 03, 2007, 08:49:03 PM
If you say something unnecessary because you are "at [your] nerve's end," you should apologize.

If you have to ask someone to do something undesirable and they don't seem to understand why you're asking them, the most productive response isn't, "That's just the way it is, so shut up and deal" it should be, "I know it sucks, but I don't have anyone else to ask and, as you can see, I'm swamped myself. I'm sorry, but please let me know when you're finished. Thanks." Managing people, esp. people smart enough to be i-bankers, is all about putting requests in context and thanking people for their efforts. If you don't know why you're being asked to do something, you don't want to do it. In fact, that's one reason I chose our firm - you always know what's up with your case and how your work fits into the grand scheme. I think Billy was just asking for a grand scheme and to be treated like a colleague, not a plebian - two entirely reasonable requests.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on June 03, 2007, 08:57:46 PM
As a subordinate, however, there are better ways to ask it.  Even at our firm, you wouldn't just walk up to a partner and be like, "Look, this combing through dozens of statutes is better suited for a paralegal or contract atty.  I go to Yale Law School."  He knew that what he was doing was necessary for the project to go forward.  Sometimes you just take one for the team.  Alternatively, he could have been like, "Here is the list, Roger.  Do you mind my asking what it's being used for, and do you need any help?"
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on June 03, 2007, 11:03:17 PM
As a subordinate, however, there are better ways to ask it.  Even at our firm, you wouldn't just walk up to a partner and be like, "Look, this combing through dozens of statutes is better suited for a paralegal or contract atty.  I go to Yale Law School."  He knew that what he was doing was necessary for the project to go forward.  Sometimes you just take one for the team.  Alternatively, he could have been like, "Here is the list, Roger.  Do you mind my asking what it's being used for, and do you need any help?"

I definitely agree with this. But saying it wrong one time is not grounds for termination, in my view. "Roger," being the manager, should have used this as a teaching moment for "Billy" by informing him of better ways to approach management. However, he chose to be lame and extremely unprofessional by forwarding the email exchange around (I'm pretty sure that's how it happened.) Thus, if anyone should be fired, it's middle-manager "Roger," not upstart "Billy" who misspoke once.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on June 04, 2007, 06:11:04 AM
I certainly agree with Crhstiana's point, but I doubt many of us will be lucky enough to work for very forgiving partners.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on June 05, 2007, 02:00:04 PM
I. Hate. Taxes.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on June 05, 2007, 02:10:47 PM
I. Hate. Taxes.

You and me both, good man.  And Ron Paul.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on June 05, 2007, 02:12:14 PM
Yeah, damn government for having stuff to pay for.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on June 05, 2007, 02:14:14 PM
Yeah, damn government for having stuff to pay for.


Word.  Shoot, maybe I should just give the government my entire check.  That way they can provide everything for me and rid my mind of the burdensome requirements of personal autonomy and responsibility.  :D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 05, 2007, 02:17:35 PM
I. Hate. Taxes.

 ;D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 05, 2007, 02:19:10 PM
I. Hate. Taxes.

i've been saying that every other week since July  :D ;)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on June 05, 2007, 02:41:34 PM
Yeah, damn government for having stuff to pay for.


Word.  Shoot, maybe I should just give the government my entire check.  That way they can provide everything for me and rid my mind of the burdensome requirements of personal autonomy and responsibility.  :D

How about just keep giving them an appropriate amount to keep the machinery running :p
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on June 05, 2007, 02:45:51 PM
Yeah, damn government for having stuff to pay for.


Word.  Shoot, maybe I should just give the government my entire check.  That way they can provide everything for me and rid my mind of the burdensome requirements of personal autonomy and responsibility.  :D

How about just keep giving them an appropriate amount to keep the machinery running :p


I feel you on that.  But at this point we're looking at serious waste -- they're taking plenty and still failing to keep everything running smoothly, lol.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: «ě» on June 05, 2007, 02:48:58 PM
Well, they're bombing the *&^% out of some brown people over in Iraq, that's got to be worth something!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on June 07, 2007, 08:41:36 AM
These search companies spoil you while you're in law school.  Now I find myself clicking on the little "i" button to see how much a database costs and forming huge searches that I can then narrow down using "focus."  Lol and I cringe every time I click on a link. "Damn, that just cost the client a $7 get-document fee!"
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Kirk Lazarus on June 07, 2007, 03:17:06 PM
TAG
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on June 10, 2007, 12:36:14 PM
These search companies spoil you while you're in law school.  Now I find myself clicking on the little "i" button to see how much a database costs and forming huge searches that I can then narrow down using "focus."  Lol and I cringe every time I click on a link. "Damn, that just cost the client a $7 get-document fee!"
*&^%, $7 is nothing. my second half firm last summer didn't have a per-hour fee arrangement with Lexis (most large firms do) so just opening a certain database to do a search could cost up to $300.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Astro on June 10, 2007, 10:40:52 PM

The ceiling for even the best EE's is about what a fifth-year associate in biglaw makes. (Again, I'm assuming that I'll make it to biglaw).

how much does a 5th year associate in biglaw make?

Using Skadden for an example, $200k w/out bonus.

EDIT: LIke k-sush... err, London Bound, said, this is probably dated. But this is about what I was thinking for ceiling.

Bruh what EE have you ever heard of that makes anything close to $200k per year??  Chem E's and Computer E's are still the highest paid engineers coming straight out of undergrad and they're not making half that.  I know you were talking about ceilings but I ain't even heard of a ceiling anywhere near that high for engineers.  Ceiling for Civ E's and Arch E's is about $120k/yr, and that's after about 20 to 30 years.  Engineering is one of those majors where you beat all of your college buddies coming right out of the gate because we tend to start higher than most other bachelor's degrees, but the pay goes up VERY slowly.  Like 1 to 2% pay increases every year type slow.
[/quote]

My dad's an EngE.  The highest paid consultants at his firm make $180K+.  When he worked internationally, they made even more. 

Not that it's common to make that sort of money.  At all.

Also, I know this is old.  But whatever. 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on July 11, 2007, 07:45:15 AM
About that huge salary: It's a longshot
Leigh Jones / Staff Reporter
July 9, 2007
Despite news of record-breaking employment figures for law school graduates and first-year salaries of $160,000 at many top law firms, a significant contingent of job seekers — including those with strong credentials — are living a much different story after graduation.

By accounts from employment trackers, news reports and some law schools themselves, starting a lucrative career as a lawyer these days is easier than ever. Many big law firms are doling out first-year salaries that exceed those paid to seasoned federal judges, and they are bestowing year-end bonuses that rival starting pay for many entry-level professional positions.

But the eye-popping salaries are the reality for a small fraction of law school graduates, and all those stories of big money may be creating unrealistic hopes for the vast majority of law school students. Contributing to the situation is the effort by law schools to portray their employment numbers as robustly as possible to boost their ranking scores.

The upshot means dashed expectations for lots of graduates, many of whom are saddled with high debt as they struggle to start their careers.

"They do not have an accurate perception of the job market," said Emily Spieler, dean of Northeastern University School of Law. "They have very restricted views."

A big challenge — and responsibility — for law schools is to dispel the notion that six-figure salaries at megafirms are the norm, she said. "They perceive those jobs as having high status and high pay and do not understand what they entail."

According to the latest information from NALP, the Washington-based nonprofit group that tracks legal employment, 90.7% of last year's law school graduates were employed nine months after graduation, topping 90% for the first time since 2000. The total number of graduates for whom employment status was known equaled 40,186.

From that number 55.8% — or 22,424 — took jobs in private practice. NALP estimates that about 37% of graduates who go into private practice end up working for firms with 101 attorneys or more. Importantly, the vast majority of the firms paying first-year associates the much-publicized $160,000 have more than 500 attorneys.

The result is that about 80% of law graduates are not working in law firms with more than 101 attorneys, and, consequently, are making far less than the amounts grabbing all the attention.

"I'm kind of stuck," said a 27-year-old lawyer from Ohio State University Michael E. Moritz College of Law who moved to Chicago after she graduated last year. She did not want to reveal her identity out of a concern that doing so would hinder her job search.

Currently working for an in-house department at a large insurance company in Chicago, she graduated in the top third of her class, was a member of law review and participated in the school's moot court competition. She has $70,000 in student loan debt, she said, and makes about $50,000 annually.

She sent out more than 100 résumés and letters before and after she graduated, she said. "I could get in the door; I just couldn't land the job."

She said that many of her friends from law school are working on a contract basis for law firms.

"A lot of people are making $30,000."

She is looking for another job and is considering nonlawyer positions.

"I'm not going anywhere," she said.

While the challenges of landing that first job as a lawyer may not be any more difficult for law graduates than for graduates in other fields, the attention paid to the top lawyer jobs by the media, the law firms and the schools themselves can build false hopes about job prospects.

"I absolutely think their expectations are inflated," said James Leipold, executive director of NALP. Part of the problem lies in the interpretation of the numbers, Leipold explained. As of August 2006, the most recent data available from NALP, the median salary for first-year associates at law firms with 501 attorneys or more was $135,000. Since then, many big law firms have raised their starting pay to $160,000. For firms with two to 25 attorneys, the median salary was $67,000, according to NALP's latest information.

But job hunters should view those figures with caution, Leipold said. First, the majority of law school graduates obtain jobs at firms with 10 attorneys or fewer, he said. In addition, location makes a big difference in salaries. Most law school graduates across the country who take jobs in private practice can expect to make between $40,000 and $45,000 their first year, Leipold said.

According to NALP, 75.3% of graduates in 2006 had jobs for which passing the bar exam was required nine months after graduation. Leipold said he is confident that NALP's numbers are accurate.

"I have no reason to doubt our numbers," he said. "The data has been so consistent over 30 years. The market moves in decimal points."
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on July 11, 2007, 07:45:35 AM
Fudge factor

But he and many in academia take issue with the way U.S. News & World Report tracks employment information, which may be prompting schools to create an artificially bright employment picture. U.S. News publishes rankings each year of professional schools and graduate schools.

Critics say that not only does the publication's data fail to distinguish the types of jobs that constitute employment, fudging occurs in the "not seeking" category. Schools may too quickly label some graduates as "not seeking" work in order to remove them from the equation.

In addition, several sources interviewed said that they have known schools to hire their own graduates for short-term research assignments in order to boost employment numbers.

"It's amazing how there were schools at 70% [employment] a few years ago that are now at 90%," said Marcelyn Cox, assistant dean of career planning at University of Miami School of Law. "That's just impossible."

U.S. News changed its employment tracking methodology two years ago, according to Robert Morse, director of data research for the publication. Prior to 2006, it counted at-graduation numbers as 30% of the employment component and the nine-month numbers as 60% of the component. The publication, which has tweaked its methodology in several areas throughout the 17 years that it has ranked law schools, consistently maintains that it is open to input from its survey participants to improve its methodology.

Also contributing to the job-market disillusionment experienced by many law students is a lack of faith in the career services offices at their schools.

"I would say that it barely helped," said a student who graduated in 2006 from a private law school ranked in the top 60. He also requested anonymity because of his job search.

Now living in Philadelphia, he holds an undergraduate degree in business administration, was president of one student organization, active in two other student groups and participated in moot court. He described career services at his law school as having a "very mechanical process" not particularly suited to his needs.

Students often view their career services offices as being there to help only the academic stars in their classes, a perception that, in most cases, is not true, said Deborah Schneider, former associate director for career development at University of California Hastings College of the Law. The co-author of Should You Really Be a Lawyer? (Niche Press, 2005), Schneider said many students experience "profound sticker shock" once they graduate and have to start repaying loans.

On-campus interviews contribute to the feeling of alienation from placement offices among many students, she said.

"For first-year law students, one of the first things that they see are these people running around in suits interviewing for high-paying large firm jobs," she said.

According to NALP's latest figures, about 32% of full-time jobs at law firms result from on-campus interviews.

Schneider said that there "may be" some pressure for career services offices to devote a disproportionate share of their resources to the on-campus recruiting process, since students' placement at big firms affords them bragging rights and generates revenue for schools that charge law firms for access and space.

But she said that many students underestimate the dedication that placement offices have to a class as a whole. "You have that three-week thing that shapes perceptions that career services only cares about on-campus interviews," she said. "That's just not the case."

Students also have the misconception that most people have jobs lined up when they graduate and that only losers are still jobless as they begin studying for the bar exam, Schneider said.

"The vast majority of employers do not hire somebody a whole year before they need them," she said. "Most of the world doesn't operate like that."

One woman who graduated in the spring from the University of Oklahoma College of Law was not necessarily expecting to have a full-time job lined up at graduation, but she thought a law degree would make a bigger splash with potential employers.

She is about $70,000 in debt and is searching for a legal or nonlegal job. She has sent out "about a million résumés," said the woman, 24, who also asked to remain anonymous. Living with her parents in Tulsa, Okla., and studying for the Texas bar exam, she graduated with a B-minus grade-point average, had a clerkship at a small firm during her third year of law school and an internship with another firm during her second year.

"I just didn't think it would be this hard," she said. "I think it's just a general misconception that with a law degree you're going to be in good shape."

The student living in Philadelphia said if he could undo his decisions, he would have obtained some professional experience — his "first real job," he said — instead of going straight from college to law school. That strategy might have made him more attractive to potential employers, he said. "I don't get as welcome a response as I thought I would," he said.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticlePrinterFriendlyNLJ.jsp?id=1183712786622

Interesting comments here: http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/07/its_hard_out_here_for_nontopti.php#more
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on July 11, 2007, 08:02:17 AM
legal education is a racket. 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: FrankWhite on July 11, 2007, 08:06:26 AM
Not to be eltist but I'd be curious about that data going by the different Tier's.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on July 11, 2007, 08:20:47 AM
Doubt there's any readily available...no school wants to admit that its graduates don't do well.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on July 20, 2007, 03:22:06 PM
Do any of y'all find it weird to have secretaries your age?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on July 20, 2007, 03:27:27 PM
No.  I find it weird to have secretaries significantly older than me.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jd06 on July 20, 2007, 03:39:44 PM
Students also have the misconception that most people have jobs lined up when they graduate and that only losers are still jobless as they begin studying for the bar exam, Schneider said.

"The vast majority of employers do not hire somebody a whole year before they need them," she said. "Most of the world doesn't operate like that."

One woman who graduated in the spring from the University of Oklahoma College of Law was not necessarily expecting to have a full-time job lined up at graduation, but she thought a law degree would make a bigger splash with potential employers.

She is about $70,000 in debt and is searching for a legal or nonlegal job. She has sent out "about a million résumés," said the woman, 24, who also asked to remain anonymous. Living with her parents in Tulsa, Okla., and studying for the Texas bar exam, she graduated with a B-minus grade-point average, had a clerkship at a small firm during her third year of law school and an internship with another firm during her second year.

"I just didn't think it would be this hard," she said. "I think it's just a general misconception that with a law degree you're going to be in good shape."


For most of us (particularly in states like CA w/ a relatively low pass rate), it's not your JD that gets you a job, it's your bar card.  So yeah, the law degree isn't necessarily going to "make a splash with potential employers" unless and until it's accompanied by bar admission.  Without that, you're of less use to a law firm than a paralegal because they're 10x better at "pushing paper" than you are. 







Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on July 20, 2007, 04:10:51 PM
No.  I find it weird to have secretaries significantly older than me.

No, that's my image of a secretary...not someone who could be my classmate, and especially when I think about our pay/education differential.  We have Ivy secretaries too.  I want to ask them what their plans are (be a secretary for 40 years?), but that would probably come off as condescending.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on July 20, 2007, 04:42:34 PM
No.  I find it weird to have secretaries significantly older than me.

No, that's my image of a secretary...not someone who could be my classmate, and especially when I think about our pay/education differential.  We have Ivy secretaries too.  I want to ask them what their plans are (be a secretary for 40 years?), but that would probably come off as condescending.

*&^% if I had to do it again, that would be a fat job.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on July 20, 2007, 11:20:47 PM
Lol do explain.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on July 21, 2007, 12:27:58 AM
Lol do explain.

they are well paid and what do they do?  occasionally enter in diaries, run things to word processing, make a few corrections here and there etc.  Hours are hella sweet and my secretary was listening to books on tape in the afternoon.  Thats the life I'm telling you.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on July 21, 2007, 06:54:29 AM
Lol interesting.  Not too late.  Be my secretary. 

Actually, no.  Because I'd tell you to put tabs in something and you'd be like, "Tabs?  Whatchu need tabs for?  There's a table of contents, isn't there?  Better use it!"
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on July 21, 2007, 10:59:40 AM
Lol interesting.  Not too late.  Be my secretary. 

Actually, no.  Because I'd tell you to put tabs in something and you'd be like, "Tabs?  Whatchu need tabs for?  There's a table of contents, isn't there?  Better use it!"

correct! 

ETA: and negro please, I'm not working for you.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on July 21, 2007, 11:12:35 AM
:P
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: CamelMan on July 21, 2007, 11:14:45 AM
tag
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Statistic on July 21, 2007, 11:14:55 AM
she'd rather work for the white man
:P
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on July 21, 2007, 11:35:12 AM
she'd rather work for the white man
:P

yeah the white man might have a conscience  ;)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on July 21, 2007, 12:17:58 PM
Um hmm.  "I feel so bad for the company being sued by this nukka."
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on July 23, 2007, 06:58:43 AM
What is happening to the pay of law partners?

This new and important paper (scroll to p.29) has lots of useful information:

    ...the average profits per partner in the top 50, top 100, and top 200 U.S. law firms in 2004, respectively, were $1.26, $1.01 and $0.83 million. These averages are the averages of the average profit per partner for each firm. The medians of the averages are lower, at $1.08, $0.86 and $0.67 million. These profits accrued to, respectively, 11,034, 17,861, and 26,755 partners. Average profits per partner exceed $2 million for 9 firms; they are at least $0.5 million for 93 of the top 100 firms, and 152 of the top 200 firms...Based on these distributions, we estimate that 14,351 of the 17,861 partners in the Am Law 100 earned more than $0.48 million in 2004...It also is worth pointing out that the 26,000 plus equity partners at Am Law 200 firms earn a total of roughly $22 billion (at $0.83 million per partner). This is the same order of magnitude as the total pay to non-financial top executives, investment banking MDs, hedge fund investors, and PE and VC investors.

It is no surprise to hear that partner pay is going up in real terms:

    ...lawyers have experienced a large real increase in pay over the last 10 and 20 years. In 1984, the average profit per partner at the top 50 firms was $0.309 million or $0.498 million in $2004. By 1994, the average profit per partner had increased to $0.531 million or $0.636 in $2004. And by 2004, the average profit per partner at the top 50 firms had increased to $1.260 million.

http://volokh.com/posts/1185027829.shtml
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on July 23, 2007, 07:17:23 AM
heck those negroes can pay for my 200k
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on July 23, 2007, 07:20:44 AM
Exactly!  Can't believe people are buying that "raises hurt the partners" mess.  Whatever!  Their pay has been increasing at a much higher rate than the associates'.  Get over it.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 23, 2007, 03:32:56 PM
What is happening to the pay of law partners?

This new and important paper (scroll to p.29) has lots of useful information:

    ...the average profits per partner in the top 50, top 100, and top 200 U.S. law firms in 2004, respectively, were $1.26, $1.01 and $0.83 million. These averages are the averages of the average profit per partner for each firm. The medians of the averages are lower, at $1.08, $0.86 and $0.67 million. These profits accrued to, respectively, 11,034, 17,861, and 26,755 partners. Average profits per partner exceed $2 million for 9 firms; they are at least $0.5 million for 93 of the top 100 firms, and 152 of the top 200 firms...Based on these distributions, we estimate that 14,351 of the 17,861 partners in the Am Law 100 earned more than $0.48 million in 2004...It also is worth pointing out that the 26,000 plus equity partners at Am Law 200 firms earn a total of roughly $22 billion (at $0.83 million per partner). This is the same order of magnitude as the total pay to non-financial top executives, investment banking MDs, hedge fund investors, and PE and VC investors.

It is no surprise to hear that partner pay is going up in real terms:

    ...lawyers have experienced a large real increase in pay over the last 10 and 20 years. In 1984, the average profit per partner at the top 50 firms was $0.309 million or $0.498 million in $2004. By 1994, the average profit per partner had increased to $0.531 million or $0.636 in $2004. And by 2004, the average profit per partner at the top 50 firms had increased to $1.260 million.

http://volokh.com/posts/1185027829.shtml

And that's just the average.  $1 Million/yr is about the bottom of the barrel for partners in NY.  Some of these fools are pulling home $3+ million/yr.

The thing with partners is though, they always seem mad busy.  Maybe not 3 million a year busy, but still, they seem to eat, sleep and breath the firm.  One of you hurry up and make partner and tell us how it feels.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on July 23, 2007, 05:23:26 PM
What is happening to the pay of law partners?

This new and important paper (scroll to p.29) has lots of useful information:

    ...the average profits per partner in the top 50, top 100, and top 200 U.S. law firms in 2004, respectively, were $1.26, $1.01 and $0.83 million. These averages are the averages of the average profit per partner for each firm. The medians of the averages are lower, at $1.08, $0.86 and $0.67 million. These profits accrued to, respectively, 11,034, 17,861, and 26,755 partners. Average profits per partner exceed $2 million for 9 firms; they are at least $0.5 million for 93 of the top 100 firms, and 152 of the top 200 firms...Based on these distributions, we estimate that 14,351 of the 17,861 partners in the Am Law 100 earned more than $0.48 million in 2004...It also is worth pointing out that the 26,000 plus equity partners at Am Law 200 firms earn a total of roughly $22 billion (at $0.83 million per partner). This is the same order of magnitude as the total pay to non-financial top executives, investment banking MDs, hedge fund investors, and PE and VC investors.

It is no surprise to hear that partner pay is going up in real terms:

    ...lawyers have experienced a large real increase in pay over the last 10 and 20 years. In 1984, the average profit per partner at the top 50 firms was $0.309 million or $0.498 million in $2004. By 1994, the average profit per partner had increased to $0.531 million or $0.636 in $2004. And by 2004, the average profit per partner at the top 50 firms had increased to $1.260 million.

http://volokh.com/posts/1185027829.shtml

And that's just the average.  $1 Million/yr is about the bottom of the barrel for partners in NY.  Some of these fools are pulling home $3+ million/yr.

The thing with partners is though, they always seem mad busy.  Maybe not 3 million a year busy, but still, they seem to eat, sleep and breath the firm.  One of you hurry up and make partner and tell us how it feels.




shhhiii- for 3+ million i'd be f-en the firm too
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on July 24, 2007, 08:19:18 AM
No Objections Here
Supply-and-Demand Has Top Law Firms' 'Summer Associates' Hitting Pay Dirt Without Breaking Much of a Sweat

By Ian Shapira
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, July 24, 2007; B01

As we ponder the mysteries of the universe in this languid season, our reveries are interrupted by the distant buzz of energy and industry.

Oh, of course: The interns are here. They descend with the heat, work up a frenzy, then depart. At Washington law firms, they are appropriately called "summers." This year, the summers are summering on sky-high salaries.

The Metro summer series continues.

Upstairs at the Kennedy Center's Roof Terrace Restaurant & Bar, the guests were finishing their complimentary dinner of grilled chicken, chocolate-cinnamon creme brulee and white wine. Their custom-made menus -- imprinted with "Steptoe & Johnson LLP: When Experience Matters" in a grandiose font -- lay folded by their plates. Floor-to-ceiling, two-story-high windows offered a Masters of the Universe ambience.

Orchestra seats for "The Phantom of the Opera" awaited downstairs.

Between spoonfuls and sips, Amy Jenkins considered her fortune. She's pulling down $2,700 a week this summer, the equivalent of about $140,000 a year -- all as a 24-year-old summer "associate" or, in more common terminology, intern. Her last serious job was working as a camp counselor in North Carolina.

"I definitely feel like a grown-up for the first time, because it's the first real responsible type of job I've had, as opposed to taking girls out to the river," she said, flanked by two tables of twentysomething contemporaries.

There has been no better time to inhabit the stratosphere of law firm summer associates than now. With a domino effect, some of Washington's elite firms have been boosting salaries over the past several months as they compete for a talent pool that is not expanding as rapidly as the caseloads. Prominent firms have hit a controversial high: about $3,100 a week for summer associates, or what would be just over $160,000 a year for fresh law school graduates. Perks are plentiful and full-time job offers all but guaranteed.

"I feel like I deserve it," said Vincenza Battaglia, 25, a rising third-year law student summering at Steptoe & Johnson. "We work really hard in law school."

But there's a backlash. Chief Justice John Roberts, senior congressional leaders and the past president of the D.C. Bar all have groused about salaries for young lawyers. James J. Sandman, past president of the D.C. Bar, wrote on the organization's Web site in March that the "astronomical" salaries "will do nothing to give associates greater responsibility, more rewarding work, better training, or increased access to mentors." And the Senate last month introduced a bill seeking a 50 percent raise for federal judges in part because new lawyers in private practice often earn more than powerful judges.

Summer associates -- knighted as "summers" and never called "interns" within their subculture -- have total market control. Demand is bigger than supply: Even though the number of graduates from the top 25 law schools has remained steady for years, the number of law firm openings has climbed, according to legal specialists.

"As the economy gets bigger and bigger, there's more of a demand for legal services," said Bruce McLean, chairman and partner at Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld, quickly adding that the cost of increasing salaries does not get passed directly on to clients. "We've had rate increases for clients in years where there's been no salary increases," he said.

About 78 percent of entry-level associates nationwide leave their firm within five years, according to the National Association for Law Placement's Foundation for Law Career Research and Education. Some take prestigious jobs with the government, and others get frustrated that it's hard to make partner and get a share of firm revenue, said James G. Leipold, NALP's executive director.

"Folks leave to take what they perceive to be better offers because the economy is good," Leipold said. "Others are fleeing because they find the demands too onerous -- it's a tough way to make money."

Indeed, budding lawyers say they spend much of their office time looking for better deals. They peruse such Web sites as Above the Law, a must-read legal blog written by David Lat, a former federal prosecutor in Newark and former co-editor of the Wonkette politics and media blog.

One of Above the Law's scoops this month was headlined "WilmerHale Summers: Where's Our Raise?" The blog published an e-mail from an anonymous summer associate in the Boston office who complained that the summers weren't getting the customary pro-rated weekly equivalent of first-year associates. Instead of about $3,100 a week ($160,000 a year), the tipster wrote, they were getting only $2,800 (about $145,000 a year).

"What the heck? . . . We're a little miffed," the aggrieved summer associate dashed off . "It's not only irritating for the wilmer summers, but its also somewhat embarrassing knowing that the small boston firms many of us shirked in order to pursue the bigger paycheck (and bigger loan-killer) are actually paying more than a purported big law firm."

The firm's Washington office perhaps avoided a blog-lashing by bumping up its associates' salaries in midsummer after learning that other firms were paying more. And the firm made the raises retroactive.

"No one is going to choose to come here simply for the sake of the last dollar," said Craig Goldblatt, a partner at the Washington office of WilmerHale. Still, he added, the firm raised summer associates' salaries because "we are committed to be at or near the top of the market once we understand that's what the market is paying."

Does the WilmerHale tipster have a right to be disgruntled? Well, avarice may not be the simple cause: For the academic year 2005-06, students from public university law schools owed an average of $54,509. Those from private schools: $83,181.

Even though a job offer at the end of the summer is pretty much a lock for everyone, summer associates still work the social and professional angles with the eagerness of college freshmen rushing a fraternity or sorority. They lunch with the firm's lawyers to sniff out which high-profile cases they can get in on, or they cozy up to partners who need help with research for a lecture or an article.

But some concede that the events can be awkward -- especially if they're not genuinely interested in a private practice career and are more into freeloading.

"A lot of them are just interested in having a good time, because when you're a summer associate, you don't get much real work," said AboveTheLaw's Lat. "When they show up for real, there will be plenty of work, so they might as well enjoy it now."

Indeed, it is a summer filled with glass-clinking and schmoozing. "Summers" sail on the Chesapeake. They go-cart in Virginia. They bowl at Strike Bethesda. They get taken out for lunch by mentors. Or they head to the company suite at Verizon Center.

"It's like grown-up summer camp," said Felicia Carter, 25, a Steptoe summer associate, riding in a bus on her way to the Kennedy Center for dinner and the "Phantom" performance. "My friends are jealous."

But many summer associates say working on real cases -- as opposed to luxuriating in all the freebies -- is what makes the summer compelling. "I've worked on a tax project, a litigation project and a government contract project," Carter added.

Steven Schulman, a partner at Akin Gump, said that a few weeks ago, he e-mailed the summer associates asking if anyone wanted to help him file a petition to free an asylum seeker detained in New Jersey on allegations that he had provided financial support to a Sri Lankan rebel group. It was a Thursday night, and the associates were at the Christian Heurich mansion -- "The Brewmaster's Castle," the historic Victorian mansion of the late German beermaker -- near Dupont Circle.

"They must have been on their BlackBerrys, because I got three e-mails before the party was over," Schulman said. "So I had one summer associate write up the motion for preliminary injunction, another figured out how you file a lawsuit without using the plaintiff's name and the third one revised the entire petition. I was getting e-mails from them past midnight."

The high-priced work of the summers ultimately paid off. Schulman said that government prosecutors told him recently that their client will be released any day.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/23/AR2007072301890.html?hpid=sec-education
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: FrankWhite on July 24, 2007, 02:38:20 PM
Oh *&^% I work for Steptoe.... not as a summer associate mind you.......
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 09, 2007, 02:03:26 PM
A taste of biglaw

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/08/a_heartfelt_fu_farewell_to_gre.php
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on August 09, 2007, 02:09:58 PM
HILARIUOS

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/08/a_heartfelt_fu_farewell_to_gre.php

What's wrong with me that I didn't find this funny?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Statistic on August 09, 2007, 02:14:22 PM
you're normal? I thought it was brutally honest but not all that funny.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 09, 2007, 02:18:39 PM
you're normal? I thought it was brutally honest but not all that funny.

eh it started out strong, then got mundane.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 09, 2007, 02:47:40 PM
Don't be this kid:
http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/07/xsummers_the_swiss_mister.php
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on August 09, 2007, 02:56:58 PM
so summers, pray tell (in preparation for oci and 2L summer employment) -- what should we ask about or look for first in selecting a firm for 2L summer?  (i.e., if your job had a-hole partners, should i ask about that, where do i look etc).  any questions you wish you had answered going in?  biggest surprise about firm life this summer?  best part (other than the money and free sh!t that only summers get)?  worst part?

in other words, I'm bored.  tell me about your firm summer.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 09, 2007, 03:00:25 PM
Don't be this kid:
http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/07/xsummers_the_swiss_mister.php

Lol you're mad late.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 09, 2007, 03:01:26 PM
so summers, pray tell (in preparation for oci and 2L summer employment) -- what should we ask about or look for first in selecting a firm for 2L summer?  (i.e., if your job had a-hole partners, should i ask about that, where do i look etc).  any questions you wish you had answered going in?  biggest surprise about firm life this summer?  best part (other than the money and free sh!t that only summers get)?  worst part?

in other words, I'm bored.  tell me about your firm summer.

Read reviews.  They're all more or less the same, with a few exceptions.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 09, 2007, 03:06:44 PM
Don't be this kid:
http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/07/xsummers_the_swiss_mister.php

Lol you're mad late.

the swissmister!  actually this was the topic of lunch so I thought I'd post it. 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 09, 2007, 03:19:33 PM
Don't be this kid:
http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/07/xsummers_the_swiss_mister.php

Lol you're mad late.

the swissmister!  actually this was the topic of lunch so I thought I'd post it. 

Yeah we talked about it too.  Apparently we have a pantry that I didn't know about filled with all sorts of drugs.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 09, 2007, 03:22:31 PM
Don't be this kid:
http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/07/xsummers_the_swiss_mister.php

Lol you're mad late.

the swissmister!  actually this was the topic of lunch so I thought I'd post it. 

Yeah we talked about it too.  Apparently we have a pantry that I didn't know about filled with all sorts of drugs.

I think the equivalent for you guys would be if someone ordered the equivalent of 10 meals a day at the cafeteria.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 09, 2007, 03:23:47 PM
Lol people regularly get two (lunch and an afternoon snack).  Apparently lawyers used to order like 100 cookies if they had to take food to some event they were attending.  They put an end to that.  But you can generally order whatever you like within reason.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 09, 2007, 03:36:37 PM
and people regularly take one or two packets of Swiss Miss  :D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 10, 2007, 10:05:42 AM
HILARIUOS

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/08/a_heartfelt_fu_farewell_to_gre.php

What's wrong with me that I didn't find this funny?

Since this person took the time to enumerate exactly what they didn't like about being a corporate lawyer, and those things dealt primarily with legal work, do you guys think that these are the general sentiments of a person/law student who actually does not like the law in the first place?  Perhaps one of the many who enter law school to "get rich quick" if you will?


Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 10, 2007, 02:20:48 PM
Pretty much.  The guy just doesn't want to be a lawyer.  Too bad for him he wasted so much time doing something he hated.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 10, 2007, 02:33:51 PM
law is not the profession one should go into to get rich quick--and the particularly mind numbing nature of "corporate law" should probably not be confused with legal practice generally.  I think the real problem is that most people come into law school passionate about one thing and then due to debt and/or the siren song of their classmates etc end up summering at Joe Blow LLP, get tricked by the dog and pony show, and walk into biglaw with eyes shut.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 10, 2007, 03:22:20 PM
HILARIUOS

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/08/a_heartfelt_fu_farewell_to_gre.php

What's wrong with me that I didn't find this funny?

Since this person took the time to enumerate exactly what they didn't like about being a corporate lawyer, and those things dealt primarily with legal work, do you guys think that these are the general sentiments of a person/law student who actually does not like the law in the first place?  Perhaps one of the many who enter law school to "get rich quick" if you will?


I think he just didn't like corporate law.

Maybe public interest law would have better suited him and given him the sense of meaning he seems to have sought (and not found) in corporate law.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 11, 2007, 10:49:34 AM
The cat just sounded real disapointed, as if getting paid big money was somehow going to magically change the fact that a contract is no longer a contract; as if somehow practicing The Law could be accomplished without having to deal with all that icky legal stuff.

You gotta wonder what exactly did people like this expect when they came to "Law" school??
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 11, 2007, 10:51:40 AM
The cat just sounded real disapointed, as if getting paid big money was somehow going to magically change the fact that a contract is no longer a contract; as if somehow practicing The Law could be accomplished without having to deal with all that icky legal stuff.

You gotta wonder what exactly did people like this expect when they came to "Law" school??

I think he just needed a sense of purpose, and corporate law wasn't giving him that purpose.  I don't think he hates the law, I think he just hates corporate law (though his switch into a non-legal field might indicate otherwise).
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 11, 2007, 11:09:37 AM
yeah it kinda sounded like he was throwing in the towel on law altogether.

Corporate (transactional) law does suck though.  More power to those going into that area.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on August 11, 2007, 12:48:19 PM
HILARIUOS

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/08/a_heartfelt_fu_farewell_to_gre.php

What's wrong with me that I didn't find this funny?

Since this person took the time to enumerate exactly what they didn't like about being a corporate lawyer, and those things dealt primarily with legal work, do you guys think that these are the general sentiments of a person/law student who actually does not like the law in the first place?  Perhaps one of the many who enter law school to "get rich quick" if you will?




Perhaps he did go to law school with the goal of "getting rick quick." Perhaps he didn't. Regradless of whichever one applies to him, I have to disgaree with Sands' ultimate conclusion -- namely, that because he was unsatisfied with tasks and lifestyle considerations he enumerated he must not like law or being a lawyer.

I've had the rare opportunity of seeing both the corporate lifestyle (in my two summer clerkships at BIGLAW firms) and a clerkship and a full-time, semester-long externship in a non-profit legal aid organization. I'm probably the rare variety of person that enjoyed something about each of those settings and could be satisfied, both personally and professionally, working in either arena.

That said, I think that it's perfectly possible not to like drafting contracts and being at work every weekend, or even some weekends, and still like being a lawyer and love the law. I am referring to the non-profit sector. While I worked at my legal aid, I was usually the last one to leave, and that was around 6:15. I never drafted a single contract there and neither did any of the lawyers. People there don't make much money off the bat (though an upper-middle class lifestyle is enjoyed by the more senior attorneys), but they don't have to worry about being dissatisfied with thier work and with their hours.

Sounds like he could be happy either in public interest or litigation in a small firm setting.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: lawschoolboundlady on August 11, 2007, 05:14:07 PM
In regards to being a Biglaw associate, has anyone ever encountered someone that enjoyed the law enough to tolerate the extremely long hours and kept their life in perspective while managing to  avoid the   " i need a Big car to match my Big job" and can only shop at extremely expensive stores mentality? IS this at all a possibility?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on August 11, 2007, 06:16:12 PM
In regards to being a Biglaw associate, has anyone ever encountered someone that enjoyed the law enough to tolerate the extremely long hours and kept their life in perspective while managing to  avoid the   " i need a Big car to match my Big job" and can only shop at extremely expensive stores mentality? IS this at all a possibility?
Every biglaw job will involve stress and long hours. Lawyers at some firms bill less and are less stressed than lawyers at others. My firm is humane, in comparison to other firms, but you still have to work hard and long. That's just part of being a biglaw attorney.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 11, 2007, 06:17:46 PM
In regards to being a Biglaw associate, has anyone ever encountered someone that enjoyed the law enough to tolerate the extremely long hours and kept their life in perspective while managing to  avoid the   " i need a Big car to match my Big job" and can only shop at extremely expensive stores mentality? IS this at all a possibility?
Every biglaw job will involve stress and long hours. Lawyers at some firms bill less and are less stressed than lawyers at others. My firm is humane, in comparison to other firms, but you still have to work hard and long. That's just part of being a biglaw attorney.

What are the hours like at your firm?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on August 11, 2007, 06:19:26 PM
In regards to being a Biglaw associate, has anyone ever encountered someone that enjoyed the law enough to tolerate the extremely long hours and kept their life in perspective while managing to  avoid the   " i need a Big car to match my Big job" and can only shop at extremely expensive stores mentality? IS this at all a possibility?
Every biglaw job will involve stress and long hours. Lawyers at some firms bill less and are less stressed than lawyers at others. My firm is humane, in comparison to other firms, but you still have to work hard and long. That's just part of being a biglaw attorney.

What are the hours like at your firm?
Giving a specific number might out my employer, which I will not risk. They are reasonable.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 11, 2007, 06:24:09 PM
In regards to being a Biglaw associate, has anyone ever encountered someone that enjoyed the law enough to tolerate the extremely long hours and kept their life in perspective while managing to  avoid the   " i need a Big car to match my Big job" and can only shop at extremely expensive stores mentality? IS this at all a possibility?
Every biglaw job will involve stress and long hours. Lawyers at some firms bill less and are less stressed than lawyers at others. My firm is humane, in comparison to other firms, but you still have to work hard and long. That's just part of being a biglaw attorney.

What are the hours like at your firm?
Giving a specific number might out my employer, which I will not risk. They are reasonable.

There's a firm out there that has hours so unique that it can be identified solely on that basis?  Maybe that in itself reveals the identity of your employer.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on August 11, 2007, 06:27:32 PM
In regards to being a Biglaw associate, has anyone ever encountered someone that enjoyed the law enough to tolerate the extremely long hours and kept their life in perspective while managing to  avoid the   " i need a Big car to match my Big job" and can only shop at extremely expensive stores mentality? IS this at all a possibility?
Every biglaw job will involve stress and long hours. Lawyers at some firms bill less and are less stressed than lawyers at others. My firm is humane, in comparison to other firms, but you still have to work hard and long. That's just part of being a biglaw attorney.

What are the hours like at your firm?
Giving a specific number might out my employer, which I will not risk. They are reasonable.

There's a firm out there that has hours so unique that it can be identified solely on that basis?  Maybe that in itself reveals the identity of your employer.
Not out it entirely, but narrow it down.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: smujd2007 on August 11, 2007, 08:28:55 PM
 :-\
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: smujd2007 on August 11, 2007, 08:31:19 PM
You don't go to law school to get rich quick . . . you dig yourself deeper into debt before it gets any better.  ???

law is not the profession one should go into to get rich quick--and the particularly mind numbing nature of "corporate law" should probably not be confused with legal practice generally.  I think the real problem is that most people come into law school passionate about one thing and then due to debt and/or the siren song of their classmates etc end up summering at Joe Blow LLP, get tricked by the dog and pony show, and walk into biglaw with eyes shut.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 11, 2007, 08:32:28 PM
exactly.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: shaz on August 11, 2007, 08:38:45 PM
i just got back from the cook county bar association minority legal job fair in chicago. it was surreal. 150 - 200 of the most beautiful and motivated people i have ever seen.

and i was one of them. it was awesome.

i just pray i get an offer.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 11, 2007, 08:44:32 PM
i just got back from the cook county bar association minority legal job fair in chicago. it was surreal. 150 - 200 of the most beautiful and motivated people i have ever seen.

and i was one of them. it was awesome.

i just pray i get an offer.

Rock that, baby!!!  ;)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 11, 2007, 09:01:48 PM
i just got back from the cook county bar association minority legal job fair in chicago. it was surreal. 150 - 200 of the most beautiful and motivated people i have ever seen.

and i was one of them. it was awesome.

i just pray i get an offer.

good luck shaz.  when do you hear?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: shaz on August 11, 2007, 09:05:19 PM
i just got back from the cook county bar association minority legal job fair in chicago. it was surreal. 150 - 200 of the most beautiful and motivated people i have ever seen.

and i was one of them. it was awesome.

i just pray i get an offer.

good luck shaz.  when do you hear?



a couple of weeks, i think. i only had 4 interviews and one of them had to cancel due to flight problems.

ah, but it only takes one, right?

Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 12, 2007, 12:53:19 PM
Sounds like he could be happy either in public interest or litigation in a small firm setting.


How do you figure when he left the law entirely and took a salesman position with computer software?


Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 12, 2007, 01:11:45 PM
In regards to being a Biglaw associate, has anyone ever encountered someone that enjoyed the law enough to tolerate the extremely long hours and kept their life in perspective while managing to  avoid the   " i need a Big car to match my Big job" and can only shop at extremely expensive stores mentality? IS this at all a possibility?

Sure, all the time.  For instance, a lot of the associates at my firm were surprisingly down to earth as far as keeping their lives in perspective and making 6 figs.  In NY, I think that's kinda easy to do because making 6 figs here does not exactly put you on Donald Trump status by any stretch of the imagination.  That just means that you can actually afford to pay the crazy rent and still have $ left over at the end of the month for yourself. LOL :D  A lot of my classmates, however, are going for those $4 or $5k/month apartments on the upper east side and west side, but as for me, I'll be keeping it simple. 

As far as hours go, we've talking about this a lot before, but I think the general concensus is that the hours are what they are.  You have to expect to put in some quasi-long hours no matter where you work in the law.  Nothing to be afraid of in my opinion.  Work is work.  I was putting in dumb hours as an engineer in my pre-law life so I don't expect this to be any different.


Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 12, 2007, 01:13:34 PM
i just got back from the cook county bar association minority legal job fair in chicago. it was surreal. 150 - 200 of the most beautiful and motivated people i have ever seen.

and i was one of them. it was awesome.

i just pray i get an offer.

Good stuff!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: smujd2007 on August 12, 2007, 05:04:55 PM
Sands . . .

$4-$5K a month on an APARTMENT??????? I hope I NEVER see the day! We are planning to buy a house next year and keep the monthly note under $1,000. Good Grief!!!

As for the putting in crazy hours, I think lots of people are inefficient at work (also, if you have to bill hours for pay/meet a quota, that makes a HUGE difference).  I'm not saying that we should always expect an 8 hr workday, but I have been at some offices and environments where attorneys still see their children and/or spouses before the sun goes down.  A lot of times, your typical workday is 8-9 hours, and then when you have a big project or case coming up, the whole office can be in 11-14 hr workday mode. But this is not all the time (maybe 20-25% of the year) so it is bearable. And the extra pay at those points can be good.   

Typically, you sacrifice some pay (can be as much as cut in half, but you really have to assess what you want out of life), but hey, its about whether you want that life work balance or the work work paycheck.


In regards to being a Biglaw associate, has anyone ever encountered someone that enjoyed the law enough to tolerate the extremely long hours and kept their life in perspective while managing to  avoid the   " i need a Big car to match my Big job" and can only shop at extremely expensive stores mentality? IS this at all a possibility?

Sure, all the time.  For instance, a lot of the associates at my firm were surprisingly down to earth as far as keeping their lives in perspective and making 6 figs.  In NY, I think that's kinda easy to do because making 6 figs here does not exactly put you on Donald Trump status by any stretch of the imagination.  That just means that you can actually afford to pay the crazy rent and still have $ left over at the end of the month for yourself. LOL :D  A lot of my classmates, however, are going for those $4 or $5k/month apartments on the upper east side and west side, but as for me, I'll be keeping it simple. 

As far as hours go, we've talking about this a lot before, but I think the general concensus is that the hours are what they are.  You have to expect to put in some quasi-long hours no matter where you work in the law.  Nothing to be afraid of in my opinion.  Work is work.  I was putting in dumb hours as an engineer in my pre-law life so I don't expect this to be any different.



Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on August 12, 2007, 05:51:35 PM
Sounds like he could be happy either in public interest or litigation in a small firm setting.


How do you figure when he left the law entirely and took a salesman position with computer software?




Maybe he had an in with the company, maybe that's the only offer he got, who knows. The point is, there are other aspects of law that don't involve the things he disliked at GT. Perhaps his experience was limited to the corporate practice and he wasn't aware of the breadth of opportunities available to him. Whatever the case may be, I'm not willing to draw such a harsh conclusion from the limited amount of information we have on this guy. Besides, I think he's bright enough to distinguish not liking working at the corporate department at GT from not liking being a lawyer. He specifically said he was unhappy with the former; I would think that if he hated the law in general, he would have said so in his letter. You seem to have drawn that conclusion from the fact that he didn't like K's and unpredictable hours, which I thought was taking it a bit far, that's all.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on August 12, 2007, 07:02:52 PM
In regards to being a Biglaw associate, has anyone ever encountered someone that enjoyed the law enough to tolerate the extremely long hours and kept their life in perspective while managing to  avoid the   " i need a Big car to match my Big job" and can only shop at extremely expensive stores mentality? IS this at all a possibility?

Sure, all the time.  For instance, a lot of the associates at my firm were surprisingly down to earth as far as keeping their lives in perspective and making 6 figs.  In NY, I think that's kinda easy to do because making 6 figs here does not exactly put you on Donald Trump status by any stretch of the imagination.  That just means that you can actually afford to pay the crazy rent and still have $ left over at the end of the month for yourself. LOL :D  A lot of my classmates, however, are going for those $4 or $5k/month apartments on the upper east side and west side, but as for me, I'll be keeping it simple. 

As far as hours go, we've talking about this a lot before, but I think the general concensus is that the hours are what they are.  You have to expect to put in some quasi-long hours no matter where you work in the law.  Nothing to be afraid of in my opinion.  Work is work.  I was putting in dumb hours as an engineer in my pre-law life so I don't expect this to be any different.




so true just because you're making good money doesn't mean you know how to manage it. so many americans are in debt because they think that making 160K means you can spend 160k, and the upper east side ain't all that. i'm living on e 81st street and the whole neighborhood smells like dog piss, i'd rather get a nice place over in Jersey. just as fly, half the rent and the view is of manhattan, rather than queens.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 12, 2007, 07:04:01 PM
I can't stand the upper east side.

But I love the upper west side. 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: TinaTina on August 12, 2007, 07:11:25 PM
I can't stand the upper east side.

But I love the upper west side. 

seconded
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on August 12, 2007, 08:46:57 PM
I can't stand the upper east side.

But I love the upper west side. 


haven't checked out the upper west side too much yet but i've heard a lot of people say they prefer the west side
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 12, 2007, 08:56:42 PM
I can't stand the upper east side.

But I love the upper west side. 


haven't checked out the upper west side too much yet but i've heard a lot of people say they prefer the west side

Yeah.  There are just more things to do.  The upper east side is primarily residential, and aside from a few museums there isn't much to do (though there are a ton of great restaurants, though they're expensive as hell).

The upper west side is more lively and much less stuffy (though is filled with people who can be just as pretentious). 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Gengiswump on August 12, 2007, 10:03:12 PM
I'm a GV sorta gal, myself.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 12, 2007, 10:26:37 PM
I'm a GV sorta gal, myself.

You would be.  That place blows!

 :P
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Gengiswump on August 12, 2007, 11:02:19 PM
I'm a GV sorta gal, myself.

You would be.  That place blows!

 :P

Says the guy from the Bronx? :D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 12, 2007, 11:13:44 PM
I'm a GV sorta gal, myself.

You would be.  That place blows!

 :P

Says the guy from the Bronx? :D

I loves me my Bronx!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on August 12, 2007, 11:52:23 PM
It's all about Brooklyn and Manhattan below 14th!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Gengiswump on August 13, 2007, 12:49:11 AM
It's all about Brooklyn and Manhattan below 14th!

For reals!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on August 13, 2007, 09:05:21 AM
I can't stand the upper east side.

But I love the upper west side. 


I can't stand the upper east side.

I can't stand the upper west side.

Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on August 13, 2007, 09:06:43 AM
Queens!  Well, at least to live.  Can't do much else out here.

And seconded, Manhattan below 14th is the *&^%.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 13, 2007, 09:35:25 AM
Queens!  Well, at least to live.  Can't do much else out here.

And seconded, Manhattan below 14th is *&^%.

fixt.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on August 13, 2007, 09:59:25 AM
Queens!  Well, at least to live.  Can't do much else out here.

And seconded, Manhattan below 14th is *&^%.

fixt.


Yes, because Broadway and 83rd is a blast!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Statistic on August 13, 2007, 10:03:52 AM
Harlem is where it's at.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Gengiswump on August 13, 2007, 10:04:24 AM
Queens!  Well, at least to live.  Can't do much else out here.

And seconded, Manhattan below 14th is sh*t.

fixt.


Yes, because Broadway and 83rd is a blast!

Partytime!

Brooklyn>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Queens, btw.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 13, 2007, 10:04:55 AM
Harlem is where it's at.

You mean where white folks are at?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on August 13, 2007, 10:09:27 AM
Queens!  Well, at least to live.  Can't do much else out here.

And seconded, Manhattan below 14th is sh*t.

fixt.


Yes, because Broadway and 83rd is a blast!

Partytime!

Brooklyn>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Queens, btw.


Q-Boro make it live.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on August 13, 2007, 10:09:56 AM
Harlem is where it's at.

You mean where white folks are at?


Yeah, because they're definitely not at UWS.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 13, 2007, 10:12:19 AM
Harlem is where it's at.

You mean where white folks are at?


Yeah, because they're definitely not at UWS.

I'm just sayin, Harlem is no longer solely a bastion for black people.  Gentrification is a female dog (thanks Bill!).
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Gengiswump on August 13, 2007, 10:14:27 AM
Didn't you just say that there's not a lot to do in Queens?  'Cause there's a TON to do in the BK - unlike other boroughs, we don't need Manhattan to have a good time. :P
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on August 13, 2007, 10:16:14 AM
Harlem is where it's at.

You mean where white folks are at?


Yeah, because they're definitely not at UWS.

I'm just sayin, Harlem is no longer solely a bastion for black people.  Gentrification is a female dog (thanks Bill!).


Yeah, if anyone thinks Harlem is still the capital of Black America then they haven't been paying attention.  But decrying gentrification in Harlem is passe.  It's so 2002.  The Starbucks on 137th and Broadway has come and gone, for goodness' sake!  That ship has sailed.

 :D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on August 13, 2007, 10:20:06 AM
Didn't you just say that there's not a lot to do in Queens?  'Cause there's a TON to do in the BK - unlike other boroughs, we don't need Manhattan to have a good time. :P


That's because BK is bigger than most cities.  BK isn't hotness in that you have a ton of great fun *&^% to do in a small area (see: Manhattan).  It's so friggin' huge that you have to be lame (figuratively and literally) to not have fun in the spot.  But you might have to travel cross-borough to do so.  (Full disclosure: Grew up in BK).
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 13, 2007, 10:21:02 AM
Queens is larger than Brooklyn
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 13, 2007, 11:19:47 AM
I can't stand the upper east side.

But I love the upper west side. 


haven't checked out the upper west side too much yet but i've heard a lot of people say they prefer the west side


Although I won't say I hate the east side, I must admit there is something about the west side that just seems really chill and peaceful. It has a good vibe to it.

And yes Queens is way bigger than BK geographically but BK def has way more to do. Plus BK has a downtown area of its own and an actual skyline.               
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 13, 2007, 11:23:55 AM
Harlem is where it's at.

You mean where white folks are at?


Yeah, because they're definitely not at UWS.

I'm just sayin, Harlem is no longer solely a bastion for black people.  Gentrification is a female dog (thanks Bill!).

White folk are only starting to venture into Harlem. It's still about 90+% Black. (and latino)

Now Brooklyn on the other hand...white folks have pretty much taken over .  LOL
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 13, 2007, 11:25:15 AM
Although I won't say I hate the east side, I must admit there is something about the west side that just seems really chill and peaceful. It has a good vibe to it.

And yes Queens is way bigger than BK geographically but BK def has way more to do. Plus BK has a downtown area of its own and an actual skyline.               


True.  I'm not going to lie, Brookyln has a great scene, but that's mostly due to the fact that it was its own separate city for so long, so it was able to develop its own downtown areas and skylines (not to take anything away from the fact that it's a cool borough).
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: cui bono? on August 13, 2007, 11:26:28 AM
LOL @ the non natives talking about the NY.  Yep, Queens is bigger. Closer to the LI, more space.  Not a lot necessarily "to do" as in BK.  Unless you like standing on the corner with a bike and a 40. East side is not where you want to be for a few reasons.  

White folks =/= in the Bx  never will  :D  Wait isn't Clinton in Harlem?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 13, 2007, 11:28:14 AM
LOL @ the non natives talking about the NY.  Yep, Queens is bigger. Closer to the LI, more space.  Not a lot necessarily "to do" as in BK.  East side is not where you want to be for a few reasons.  

White folks =/= in the Bx  never will  :D  Wait isn't Clinton in Harlem?

There are white folks in the Bronx, but they're all huddled in Riverdale, which definitely does not feel like a part of the Bronx.  But there are multimillion dollar estates there (true mansions that look like they belond in Beverly Hills).  But true, white folk sightings in the rest of the Bronx are rare, unless you're at the zoo, botanical garden, or Yankee stadium.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: cui bono? on August 13, 2007, 11:31:53 AM
eh I dont consider that the "real Bx" LOL. 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 13, 2007, 11:33:44 AM
eh I dont consider that the "real Bx" LOL. 

Neither do I  ;)

I did go to middle/high school in Riverdale though.  It was funny to see all the white kids who lived in Riverdale try to be badass and claim that they lived in the Bronx while their parents did all they could to separate themselves from the fact that Riverdale is technically in the Bronx. 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 13, 2007, 11:35:32 AM
Me and a number of the BLSA first year associates are moving over to Harlem while we stack up some chips for that first real estate purchase.  It's a pretty good look as far as distance to the gig, space and most of all, saving $$$$!!!!


Can't wait.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 13, 2007, 11:37:47 AM
Me and a number of the BLSA first year associates are moving over to Harlem while we stack up some chips for that first real estate purchase.  It's a pretty good look as far as distance to the gig, space and most of all, saving $$$$!!!!


Can't wait.

There is a ton of amazing real estate in Harlem.  Some of those brownstones are absolutely gorgeous (even if it takes a little bit of imagination to see their potential). 

I'm definitely interested in possibly snagging up some real estate in Harlem. 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: cui bono? on August 13, 2007, 11:39:33 AM
eh I dont consider that the "real Bx" LOL. 

Neither do I  ;)

I did go to middle/high school in Riverdale though.  It was funny to see all the white kids who lived in Riverdale try to be badass and claim that they lived in the Bronx while their parents did all they could to separate themselves from the fact that Riverdale is technically in the Bronx. 

LOL.  yeah I think ppl say the same thing about L.I. tho.  Like when I came down here originally for UG and folks couldn't place the accent. When I said LI I got the "that's not really NY".  


Me and a number of the BLSA first year associates are moving over to Harlem while we stack up some chips for that first real estate purchase.  It's a pretty good look as far as distance to the gig, space and most of all, saving $$$$!!!!


Can't wait.

sounds like a plan.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 13, 2007, 11:41:06 AM
eh I dont consider that the "real Bx" LOL. 

Neither do I  ;)

I did go to middle/high school in Riverdale though.  It was funny to see all the white kids who lived in Riverdale try to be badass and claim that they lived in the Bronx while their parents did all they could to separate themselves from the fact that Riverdale is technically in the Bronx. 

LOL.  yeah I think ppl say the same thing about L.I. tho.  Like when I came down here originally for UG and folks couldn't place the accent. When I said LI I got the "that's not really NY".  


That's because it's not!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on August 13, 2007, 11:41:46 AM
LI?  Isn't that like New Jersey or something?   :D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: cui bono? on August 13, 2007, 11:43:35 AM
LI?  Isn't that like New Jersey or something?   :D

 :P :P :P :P

eh I dont consider that the "real Bx" LOL. 

Neither do I  ;)

I did go to middle/high school in Riverdale though.  It was funny to see all the white kids who lived in Riverdale try to be badass and claim that they lived in the Bronx while their parents did all they could to separate themselves from the fact that Riverdale is technically in the Bronx. 

LOL.  yeah I think ppl say the same thing about L.I. tho.  Like when I came down here originally for UG and folks couldn't place the accent. When I said LI I got the "that's not really NY".  


That's because it's not!

 :P :P :P :P :P :P :P 

LOL come to the 'stead
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on August 13, 2007, 11:46:34 AM
LI?  Isn't that like New Jersey or something?   :D

 :P :P :P :P

eh I dont consider that the "real Bx" LOL. 

Neither do I  ;)

I did go to middle/high school in Riverdale though.  It was funny to see all the white kids who lived in Riverdale try to be badass and claim that they lived in the Bronx while their parents did all they could to separate themselves from the fact that Riverdale is technically in the Bronx. 

LOL.  yeah I think ppl say the same thing about L.I. tho.  Like when I came down here originally for UG and folks couldn't place the accent. When I said LI I got the "that's not really NY". 


That's because it's not!

 :P :P :P :P :P :P :P 

LOL come to the 'stead


LOL, well that's not Long Island like Riverdale aint the Bronx.  Doesn't necessarily fit in with the areas around it.  My pops is from Hempstead.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: cui bono? on August 13, 2007, 11:48:26 AM
lol finally someone who knowz  but lemme stop frontin' I'm from da port
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 13, 2007, 12:10:13 PM
LI?  Isn't that like New Jersey or something?   :D

STRONG ISLAND!!!!!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: TinaTina on August 13, 2007, 12:24:03 PM
Lies!

Riverdale is the Bronx.  And there's white people in the Bronx...take the BX34 someday and check out Woodlawn.  Every second building is a pub. :P  Plus, if you don't mind waiting, give SoBro a few years.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on August 13, 2007, 12:29:36 PM
Lies!

Riverdale is the Bronx.  And there's white people in the Bronx...take the BX34 someday and check out Woodlawn.  Every second building is a pub. :P  Plus, if you don't mind waiting, give SoBro a few years.


STOP IT!

SoBro? Really?

As my best friend, a Boston native, remarked to a yuppied gentleman who ignorantly dubbed Southie (South Boston) "SoBo,"

"That's the way you get Timberland'd up."
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 13, 2007, 12:30:53 PM
Lies!

Riverdale is the Bronx.  And there's white people in the Bronx...take the BX34 someday and check out Woodlawn.  Every second building is a pub. :P  Plus, if you don't mind waiting, give SoBro a few years.

SoBro will never be anything noteworthy (though I actually have looked into some of the lofts there).

And no, Riverdale is NOT a part of the Bronx. 

And I live near Woodlawn.  The only whites there are Hispanic whites.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: TinaTina on August 13, 2007, 01:18:33 PM
Ummm...no. I don't know that side of the Bronx well, but it's beyond the end of the 4 line.  That's why I said the 34 Bus.  Believe me, those white people are not Hispanic. 

Tell me this isn't the first time you've heard the term SoBro.  If I had the money I'd buy one of those lofts, but I've been GENTRIFIEDPWNED.  You guys have got to keep up man.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/24/nyregion/24bronx.html?ex=1187150400&en=689ae70ea600a7d6&ei=5070
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/05/realestate/05post.html?ex=1187150400&en=72ee2f38bf4fea6e&ei=5070
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/15/realestate/15cov.html?ex=1187150400&en=5dc58a524b978bd9&ei=5070
http://www.curbed.com/archives/2005/06/24/hipster_neighborhood_du_jour_sobro.php

Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 13, 2007, 01:21:01 PM
Tell me this isn't the first time you've heard the term SoBro.  If I had the money I'd buy one of those lofts, but I've been GENTRIFIEDPWNED.  You guys have got to keep up man.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/24/nyregion/24bronx.html?ex=1187150400&en=689ae70ea600a7d6&ei=5070
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/05/realestate/05post.html?ex=1187150400&en=72ee2f38bf4fea6e&ei=5070
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/15/realestate/15cov.html?ex=1187150400&en=5dc58a524b978bd9&ei=5070
http://www.curbed.com/archives/2005/06/24/hipster_neighborhood_du_jour_sobro.php



What?  I knew exactly what you were talking about.  I even mentioned the lofts!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: TinaTina on August 13, 2007, 01:24:48 PM

SoBro will never be anything noteworthy (though I actually have looked into some of the lofts there).


These are the recent sales for the Mott Haven area.  Looks like people with the money to decide these things think differently.

http://realestate.nytimes.com/Community/recentsales_details.asp?sRegionID=1025468
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: TinaTina on August 13, 2007, 01:25:46 PM
My bad.  That was for Lacoste.  My other response was directed towards you.

Tell me this isn't the first time you've heard the term SoBro.  If I had the money I'd buy one of those lofts, but I've been GENTRIFIEDPWNED.  You guys have got to keep up man.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/24/nyregion/24bronx.html?ex=1187150400&en=689ae70ea600a7d6&ei=5070
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/05/realestate/05post.html?ex=1187150400&en=72ee2f38bf4fea6e&ei=5070
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/15/realestate/15cov.html?ex=1187150400&en=5dc58a524b978bd9&ei=5070
http://www.curbed.com/archives/2005/06/24/hipster_neighborhood_du_jour_sobro.php



What?  I knew exactly what you were talking about.  I even mentioned the lofts!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on August 13, 2007, 01:27:28 PM
Never heard of SoBro, nope.  Then again, all I know about the Bronx is that my fam used to live there and it takes my girlfriend 3 days to get home to Co-op City whenever go out in Manhattan.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 13, 2007, 01:28:08 PM

SoBro will never be anything noteworthy (though I actually have looked into some of the lofts there).


These are the recent sales for the Mott Haven area.  Looks like people with the money to decide these things think differently.

http://realestate.nytimes.com/Community/recentsales_details.asp?sRegionID=1025468

Those price ranges are prevelant throughout the Bronx.  In my area houses regularly sell for over $500k, and this is smack dab in the middle of the Bronx.  
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: TinaTina on August 13, 2007, 01:49:34 PM
Yeah, but for those prices people can actually live there now.  Bronxites elsewhere aren't calling half a mil for a previously boarded up warehouse with a view of other boarded up warehouses in a neighborhood where services means that the bodega two blocks over replaces its fruit fortnightly.  ;)

I mean think about it.  It's a few stops from the UES and the city continues to expand.  Expansion in one direction would mean skyhigh real estate prices and the objections of well-informed community boards.  Expansion in the other would mean rock bottom prices and pricing out people who don't have the education or the resources to effectively stop you.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 13, 2007, 01:50:31 PM
OK, enough NYC talk.  Galt, what can you tell me about Le Droit park?  I saw some nice condos there, but I'm thinking it's not quite gentrified enough for me.  Am I correct?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on August 13, 2007, 03:31:49 PM
Harlem is where it's at.

You mean where white folks are at?


Yeah, because they're definitely not at UWS.

I'm just sayin, Harlem is no longer solely a bastion for black people.  Gentrification is a female dog (thanks Bill!).

White folk are only starting to venture into Harlem. It's still about 90+% Black. (and latino)

Now Brooklyn on the other hand...white folks have pretty much taken over .  LOL



i know we're off NYC but for the record i am lovin' Harlem. i'm probably going to move out to BK but only because i would still have to do the alternate street cleaning parking thing in harlem, otherwise it would be Harlem USA all day.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Gengiswump on August 13, 2007, 03:36:11 PM
Queens is larger than Brooklyn

Space-wise, but not people-wise.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 13, 2007, 03:42:13 PM
Am I the only one on the board who doesn't know queens from brooklyn from bronx from whatever?  And is Staten Island even an island?  Why don't I ever see it on a map, like Long Island?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on August 13, 2007, 03:43:26 PM
Harlem is where it's at.

You mean where white folks are at?


Yeah, because they're definitely not at UWS.

I'm just sayin, Harlem is no longer solely a bastion for black people.  Gentrification is a female dog (thanks Bill!).

White folk are only starting to venture into Harlem. It's still about 90+% Black. (and latino)

Now Brooklyn on the other hand...white folks have pretty much taken over .  LOL



i know we're off NYC but for the record i am lovin' Harlem. i'm probably going to move out to BK but only because i would still have to do the alternate street cleaning parking thing in harlem, otherwise it would be Harlem USA all day.


Ditto.  I was born in Manhattan, raised in Brooklyn, and my college years in Queens.  But when I settle in NYC in summer 2009 after graduation, I'll be living in Harlem. 

Maybe the Heights.  Doubt it, though.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on August 13, 2007, 03:47:53 PM
Am I the only one on the board who doesn't know queens from brooklyn from bronx from whatever?  And is Staten Island even an island?  Why don't I ever see it on a map, like Long Island?


staten island is an actual island only way to the mainland is on the ferry. you have to zoom out on the map its the big lump of land directly below manhattan
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on August 13, 2007, 03:49:40 PM
Am I the only one on the board who doesn't know queens from brooklyn from bronx from whatever?  And is Staten Island even an island?  Why don't I ever see it on a map, like Long Island?


staten island is an actual island only way to the mainland is on the ferry. you have to zoom out on the map its the big lump of land directly below manhattan

never heard of it
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Gengiswump on August 13, 2007, 03:50:53 PM
Shhh, Alci, don't talk about you know where - people move there and are never seen again.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on August 13, 2007, 03:51:15 PM
Am I the only one on the board who doesn't know queens from brooklyn from bronx from whatever?  And is Staten Island even an island?  Why don't I ever see it on a map, like Long Island?


staten island is an actual island only way to the mainland is on the ferry. you have to zoom out on the map its the big lump of land directly below manhattan

never heard of it


LOL
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 13, 2007, 03:51:43 PM
Am I the only one on the board who doesn't know queens from brooklyn from bronx from whatever?  And is Staten Island even an island?  Why don't I ever see it on a map, like Long Island?


staten island is an actual island only way to the mainland is on the ferry. you have to zoom out on the map its the big lump of land directly below manhattan

Ah, I see it now...never noticed the river separating it.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 13, 2007, 03:52:12 PM
Lol what's wrong with Staten Island?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on August 13, 2007, 03:53:46 PM
its full of staten islanders
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 13, 2007, 03:54:21 PM
They worse they Long Islanders?  Plenty of those at my undergrad.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Gengiswump on August 13, 2007, 03:55:38 PM
Lol what's wrong with Staten Island?

It's a black hole.  Nothing escapes.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: TinaTina on August 13, 2007, 03:57:34 PM
The Bronx always takes the definite article...saying it any other way identifies you an out-of-towner (read: gullible mark/annoying shorts-and-sandal-wearer).


  
Am I the only one on the board who doesn't know queens from brooklyn from bronx from whatever?  And is Staten Island even an island?  Why don't I ever see it on a map, like Long Island?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 13, 2007, 03:58:58 PM
Yeah I would have said "the" if I were talking.  But I was going for the naive effect, for conversation's sake ;).
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 13, 2007, 03:59:56 PM
So classify the boroughs in terms of wealth, from most to least wealthy.  I know Manhattan's first, but then what?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on August 13, 2007, 04:04:32 PM
well if you mean like where people with money live manhattan, long island the (rich part not hempstead) and probably n jersey though i don't know if jersey is allowed to be discussed in a conversation on NY, brooklyn/queens same diff though BK may have more high end apartments etc. and rich/famous people living there. staten island is full of soprano mob types and dead soprano mob types who haven't been found yet.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: TinaTina on August 13, 2007, 04:06:53 PM
The distinction is a little subtler than Jarhead made it out to be, (as most things are :P...it's all love JH) but generally it's M>BK>Q>S>BX.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 13, 2007, 04:07:08 PM
staten island is full of soprano mob types and dead soprano mob types who haven't been found yet.

 :D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 13, 2007, 04:07:45 PM
The distinction is a little subtler than Jarhead made it out to be, (as most things are :P...it's all love JH) but generally it's M>BK>Q>S>BX.

O rly?  Hm, I was under the impression that Queens was the worst.  Where is Harlem?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on August 13, 2007, 04:08:24 PM
The distinction is a little subtler than Jarhead made it out to be, (as most things are :P...it's all love JH) but generally it's M>BK>Q>S>BX.


oh yeah forgot the BX
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: TinaTina on August 13, 2007, 04:09:21 PM
Harlem is in uptown Manhattan.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on August 13, 2007, 04:11:35 PM
queens is kinda split half of it is sorta suburban and half of it is all ghetto. a lot of middle class blacks live out in queens because there's a little more grass and suburban feel than there is in BK.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: TinaTina on August 13, 2007, 04:17:39 PM
Yeah, Queens is the one borough where blacks outearn whites.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/01/nyregion/01census.html?ex=1317355200&en=2ef39d445a4d36da&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

ETA: Though with the recent housing downturn there may be cause for concern.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 13, 2007, 04:33:24 PM
Lol what's wrong with Staten Island?

It's a black hole.  Nothing escapes.

Except for the Wu-Tang Clan, Staten Island has no significant real life value.


Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on August 13, 2007, 04:39:03 PM
Lol what's wrong with Staten Island?

It's a black hole.  Nothing escapes.

Except for the Wu-Tang Clan, Staten Island has no significant real life value.





i went to a party on staten island a few weeks ago. so i thought it was 80s night so i was mad that my friend didn't tell me cause i coulda pulled out my todd 1 suit and adidas and been stylin' right.... 'cept it wasn't 80's night  :-\
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 13, 2007, 05:03:26 PM
Harlem is in uptown Manhattan.

So what's the deal with Harlem?  Sometimes I hear good things; other times I hear bad.  Is it gentrifying or something?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 13, 2007, 05:05:08 PM
well if you mean like where people with money live manhattan, long island the (rich part not hempstead) and probably n jersey though i don't know if jersey is allowed to be discussed in a conversation on NY, brooklyn/queens same diff though BK may have more high end apartments etc. and rich/famous people living there. staten island is full of soprano mob types and dead soprano mob types who haven't been found yet.

Hey now, you still gotta include Jersey in the NYC discussion.  Damn near 1/2 of NY'ers live there. Who's house.....Run's House!!!   LOL


And I'm feeling you on Harlem (obviously since I'm moving there).  It will be an interesting area to live in coming from Newark.   Then again, anywhere is a good look coming from Newark. :P
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: TinaTina on August 13, 2007, 05:35:30 PM
Harlem is in uptown Manhattan.

So what's the deal with Harlem?  Sometimes I hear good things; other times I hear bad.  Is it gentrifying or something?

Yeah.  Things were really bleak in Harlem in the 70s and 80s.  Then the private sector went back into the area in a big way starting in the late 90s and, unsurprisingly, they were followed by the more intrepid members of the professional class.  Now with a few major reconstructive projects coming down the pipeline (including CU's planned expansion :-X) everybody and they Momma are trying to get in - acting like they hadn't raced away as far as their dollars could take them not so long ago.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 13, 2007, 05:42:02 PM
Interesting.  Are they attempting to keep some of the historic landmarks (assuming some still exist)?  I don't mind gentrification as long as some of the historical significance is preserved.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 13, 2007, 09:18:01 PM
Staten Island is actually pretty affluent.  I think more so than Queens, maybe even more so than Brooklyn, though probably not.

There are many mansions there and high-priced estates.


Also, it's where the New York mob is located primarily. 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 13, 2007, 09:54:14 PM
Lol I go to the City often enough...just the Manhattan part of it!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on August 13, 2007, 10:33:34 PM
Staten Island is actually pretty affluent.  I think more so than Queens, maybe even more so than Brooklyn, though probably not.

There are many mansions there and high-priced estates.


Also, it's where the New York mob is located primarily. 

yea SI is what i like to call, the lost borough.  plus it's very homogeneous out there
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 13, 2007, 10:57:05 PM
Staten Island is actually pretty affluent.  I think more so than Queens, maybe even more so than Brooklyn, though probably not.

There are many mansions there and high-priced estates.


Also, it's where the New York mob is located primarily. 

yea SI is what i like to call, the lost borough.  plus it's very homogeneous out there

Not to mention the fact that geographically it should be part of New Jersey, not New York.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: OperaAttorney on August 14, 2007, 02:50:42 AM
Hey Denny Crane,

You look AND sound like DAC from TLS. (DAC, is that you?  ;))

Your signature reads YALE LAW Class of 2010, but you mentioned preparing for the December LSAT on TLS.

I'm confused.

Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 14, 2007, 05:28:28 AM
lol n00bs
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 14, 2007, 06:51:15 AM
lol n00bs

credited  >:(
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on August 14, 2007, 07:12:30 AM
In terms of affluence I'd probably say, just thinking concentration-wise,

M>SI>Q>BK>BX.  Long Island is propping up Queens, though with areas like Bayside, Flushing, and the like the borough can more than stand on it's own two.

Staten Island can be very affluent.  No real New Yorker cares to ride out there, never mind live out there.

Brooklyn, I'm sure, has some affluent neighborhoods just by virtue of it's size.

Harlem has undergone a slow transformation but I wouldn't expect it to change entirely (unless Columbia bullies its punk ass into West Harlem and forces all the locals out).  Watch Columbia's move.  If they get the green light from the courts to use eminent domain, you better kiss the Harlem you know and love goodbye and quick.  But if they start hitting snags, then I think you'll have more of the stagnant gentrification you've been seeing since 2000 or so.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Gengiswump on August 14, 2007, 07:32:50 AM
In terms of affluence I'd probably say, just thinking concentration-wise,

M>SI>Q>BK>BX.  Long Island is propping up Queens, though with areas like Bayside, Flushing, and the like the borough can more than stand on it's own two.

Brooklyn, I'm sure, has some affluent neighborhoods just by virtue of it's size.


Dude - Brooklyn Heights/DUMBO is the new it destination for Trust Fund Babies and their starter appartments, plus there's the Slope, Carroll Gardens, Boerum Hill, Cobble Hill . . . and these are all just the ones closest to the bridges/tunnels.  LIC doesn't even come close - I'd definitely bet that BK is more well off than Queens, even with East New York balancing it out.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on August 14, 2007, 07:52:01 AM
In terms of affluence I'd probably say, just thinking concentration-wise,

M>SI>Q>BK>BX.  Long Island is propping up Queens, though with areas like Bayside, Flushing, and the like the borough can more than stand on it's own two.

Brooklyn, I'm sure, has some affluent neighborhoods just by virtue of it's size.


Dude - Brooklyn Heights/DUMBO is the new it destination for Trust Fund Babies and their starter appartments, plus there's the Slope, Carroll Gardens, Boerum Hill, Cobble Hill . . . and these are all just the ones closest to the bridges/tunnels.  LIC doesn't even come close - I'd definitely bet that BK is more well off than Queens, even with East New York balancing it out.


I didn't mean LIC; I know LIC ain't money.  I meant Long Island, and then I realized in my morning haze that LI ain't Queens.  It's just darn close.  So yeah, BK probably has it. 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Gengiswump on August 14, 2007, 07:53:38 AM
Per capita income (2000 census)

Manhattan: $42,922
Staten Island: $23,905
Brooklyn: $16,775
Queens: $14,222
Bronx: $13,959

I know it's not affluence per se, but it gives an idea.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Gengiswump on August 14, 2007, 07:55:47 AM
I didn't mean LIC; I know LIC ain't money.

:D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on August 14, 2007, 08:00:26 AM
I didn't mean LIC; I know LIC ain't money.

:D



That doesn't mean I wouldn't take a sick ass loft right there next to the citicorp bldg and be a hop skip and a jump outside of manhattan!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: TinaTina on August 14, 2007, 09:54:18 AM
I thought they said they said they weren't going to try to use eminent domain.  Oh well, they're bastards.  TEAM TUCK-IT-AWAY!


Harlem has undergone a slow transformation but I wouldn't expect it to change entirely (unless Columbia bullies its punk ass into West Harlem and forces all the locals out).  Watch Columbia's move.  If they get the green light from the courts to use eminent domain, you better kiss the Harlem you know and love goodbye and quick.  But if they start hitting snags, then I think you'll have more of the stagnant gentrification you've been seeing since 2000 or so.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on August 14, 2007, 10:08:23 AM
I thought they said they said they weren't going to try to use eminent domain.  Oh well, they're bastards.  TEAM TUCK-IT-AWAY!


Harlem has undergone a slow transformation but I wouldn't expect it to change entirely (unless Columbia bullies its punk ass into West Harlem and forces all the locals out).  Watch Columbia's move.  If they get the green light from the courts to use eminent domain, you better kiss the Harlem you know and love goodbye and quick.  But if they start hitting snags, then I think you'll have more of the stagnant gentrification you've been seeing since 2000 or so.


Oh no, as far as I know they NEVER said they would keep eminent domain in the pocket.  They've threatened those businesses, Tuck-it-Away included, with eminent domain from the get-go.  But they got in trouble because it turns out that the ESDC hired the exact same firm that Columbia hired (when it was developing the plan to clear the area) to evaluate whether clearing the area was okay!  Conflict of interests, anyone?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: TinaTina on August 14, 2007, 10:26:36 AM
Oh OK.  That I knew, but they recently said they wouldn't use it to try to pry out the hold-out residents from the area.  Of course, it may just be that they're hoping to limit public outcry by targeting commercial properties solely and then once that's out of the way  they'll close in on the residents.   

Columbia Rules Out Tenant Evictions in Harlem Expansion Plan.(Metropolitan Desk)(Columbia University). Dalton Walker.
The New York Times (July 13, 2007)

Columbia University announced yesterday that it would not ask the state to use eminent domain to evict residents of 132 apartments in the 17-acre area of Harlem that it wants to move into.

The announcement, covering all the remaining residents in the area, suggests that the university, which is seeking the city's support for a major northward expansion of its Morningside Heights campus, is trying to be conciliatory.

The move, nonetheless, goes only part of the way to address the concerns of opponents of the expansion plan, including Community Board 9. It has proposed an alternative to the university's proposal that emphasizes building more low-cost housing and retaining the area's light industry.

Councilman Robert Jackson, the Manhattan Democrat who represents the area, said the university and the community board had about seven more months to reach an agreement or the Council would act one way or another on the rezoning plan. Four business owners are insisting they are not going anywhere, he said.

''I've said to people, 'I don't want to vote on this particular matter down the road,' '' Mr. Jackson said. ''Someone is not going to be happy. In the next few months we have to work hard and reach a consensus.''

In a statement, Columbia said its executive vice president, Robert Kasdin, did not eliminate the possibility that the university might ask the state to invoke eminent domain to acquire the few commercial properties that remain in the proposed expansion area.

But in most cases, Columbia said, the university will seek to buy both residential and commercial property from the owners on mutually agreeable terms. The university already owns about 60 percent of the properties in the 17-acre site, Victoria Benitez, a Columbia spokeswoman, said.

The 17-acre area includes four large blocks from West 129th to 133rd Streets, between Broadway and 12th Avenue, along with the north side of 125th Street, and three properties east of Broadway, from West 131st to 134th Street. The area is not densely populated, having a handful of low-rise residential buildings next to commercial and light industrial buildings.

Columbia, which completed a draft environmental impact statement last month, has said it needs the expansion to remain competitive in science research.

They've threatened those businesses, Tuck-it-Away included, with eminent domain from the get-go.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on August 14, 2007, 10:29:35 AM
Yeah, they aren't stupid enough to try to kick folks out of their homes.  Just their businesses.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 14, 2007, 12:19:52 PM
Per capita income (2000 census)

Manhattan: $42,922
Staten Island: $23,905
Brooklyn: $16,775
Queens: $14,222
Bronx: $13,959

I know it's not affluence per se, but it gives an idea.


I'm looking at these numbers like WTF??  How can that be right for any of those boroughs?  These are average household incomes or what?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 14, 2007, 12:24:13 PM
I didn't mean LIC; I know LIC ain't money.

:D



That doesn't mean I wouldn't take a sick ass loft right there next to the citicorp bldg and be a hop skip and a jump outside of manhattan!


Was def considering moving to LIC into one of those new spots that keep popping up like every 5 minutes.  Not bad prices for a new purchase either, usually around 4-500k.  Law Firm Associate range.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 14, 2007, 12:25:24 PM
Per capita income (2000 census)

Manhattan: $42,922
Staten Island: $23,905
Brooklyn: $16,775
Queens: $14,222
Bronx: $13,959

I know it's not affluence per se, but it gives an idea.


I'm looking at these numbers like WTF??  How can that be right for any of those boroughs?  These are average household incomes or what?

Nah, per capita, so probably includes non-working adults in the household.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: 2Lacoste on August 14, 2007, 12:30:36 PM
I didn't mean LIC; I know LIC ain't money.

:D



That doesn't mean I wouldn't take a sick ass loft right there next to the citicorp bldg and be a hop skip and a jump outside of manhattan!


Was def considering moving to LIC into one of those new spots that keep popping up like every 5 minutes.  Not bad prices for a new purchase either, usually around 4-500k.  Law Firm Associate range.


Ditto.  'Cept after 3 years I'm out and into the DA's office or something, making bad money.  So I wouldn't even be able to go near paying the mortgage on something like that.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 14, 2007, 01:03:01 PM
That's why I was trippin off of those averages that were posted earlier on household incomes.  I don't think it is possible to live in the city making 20k/yr before taxes.  That means your take home is like...$15k/yr.  You will easily spend that on even the worst of apartments, regardless of which burrough.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Gengiswump on August 14, 2007, 01:50:08 PM
That's why I was trippin off of those averages that were posted earlier on household incomes.  I don't think it is possible to live in the city making 20k/yr before taxes.  That means your take home is like...$15k/yr.  You will easily spend that on even the worst of apartments, regardless of which burrough.

Household != per capita, yo.  Household income in BK and Queens is in the low $30s.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 14, 2007, 02:56:06 PM
That's still not very inspiring...
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on August 14, 2007, 03:06:37 PM
dumb question LIC is long island city right?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 14, 2007, 03:26:38 PM
dumb question LIC is long island city right?

Yup yup. 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 14, 2007, 03:40:56 PM
Right it's in Queens just across the east river from mid-town.  First couple stops off the 7.  They are throwing a lot of new condo's up there all the time.

Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 14, 2007, 03:51:46 PM
Right it's in Queens just across the east river from mid-town.  First couple stops off the 7.  They are throwing a lot of new condo's up there all the time.



Yeah, it's supposed to be on the up and up, but development there got delayed after 9/11.

MetLife was supposed to relocate their HQ there, but right before construction was supposed to begin 9/11 happened and the company scrapped the relocation plan due to the financial instability afterward, and so far I don't think they've revived that plan.  CitiGroup has their HQ there though, but since there's a subway stop that leads directly into the building and the people who work there rarely venture out of the building, business development in the area has been slow-going.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 14, 2007, 04:23:19 PM
Follow up to the Greenberg letter posted earlier:

An ATL Interview with the Greenberg Traurig Letter Writer

Remember the former Biglaw associate who recently left Greenberg Traurig -- and whose departure caused a stir, due to his rather frank resignation letter?

This associate's farewell message was widely circulated by email. We posted it here -- where it generated some 150 reader comments.

Opinions were all over the map about the author and his letter. Some commended him for his candor, while others chided him for self-indulgence. But regardless of your views of him, it's clear that his resignation letter struck a nerve, resonating with associates at large law firms around the country.

We caught up with the writer of the resignation letter and conducted a brief interview with him, over email. You can check it out after the jump.

Here's the interview. Our questions appear in bold, followed by his responses.

To whom was this letter sent in the first instance?

Initially, this letter was sent as a pdf attachment to an e-mail to about 10 people at Greenberg (6 corporate partners, 4 associates who I had worked with), and two people in HR. One of those 12 leaked it.

Are you upset that your letter was leaked? Or do you think it could be a good thing, in terms of starting a discussion?

I'm not upset that the letter was leaked, although it was not my intention for it to be forwarded around the legal community. I stand behind what I wrote (minus the two typos), but at the same time I want to stress that the letter was definitely NOT a specific indictment of Greenberg Traurig (who have actually treated me really well considering this letter) as much as it was aimed at corporate law (and Biglaw) in general.

I hope it does at least start a dialogue among those people who can actually do something to try to improve the situation at firms (and I don't think the solution is to just keep increasing salaries). While I'm sure there are many corporate lawyers out there who love their job (and god bless them), the vast majority that I know feel many of the same things that I do. And I don't think these feelings are limited to corporate lawyers either, but also apply to big firm lawyers regardless of practice group.

What led you to go to law school? Would you go to law school if you were to do it all over again?

I went to law school because it was something I had always thought I wanted to do. In addition, I just really enjoyed being in an academic environment and thought that going to a good law school would definitely not hurt me in whatever field I decided to pursue. I was fortunate that my parents were able to help me out a bit in addition to a large grant I received my first year of law school. As a result, I left law school only owing money to the US Government, with no private loans.

Would you be willing to state, in percentage terms, the size of the pay cut you're taking?

Depending on how I do in the sales job, my first year pay will be approximately a 70% pay cut. Of course, the plan is for my compensation to steadily increase as I become more successful in this next role. However, it will probably be a long time before I return to my current compensation level at the law firm. But, as I wrote in the letter, this is clearly not a financial decision. I also realize I'm lucky in that I have the financial flexibility to make a move like this right now (i.e., reasonable mortgage, no family to support, no car payments, etc.).

Did you think about switching specialties -- e.g., from corporate to, say, litigation -- or moving to a smaller firm or to government (where you might have more control over your life)?

I definitely did not consider switching practice groups within my firm or at another large firm. It's clear that most of my frustrations are fairly consistent across all big firms. In addition, I didn't really consider moving to a smaller firm or the government either. Corporate law is still corporate law, whether I do it for 70 hours a week or 40 hours a week. I never really had an interest in litigating either. Of course there are many, many other types of law a lawyer can practice. However, I feel my personality is better suited for a sales position. In addition, my new job will allow me to do certain things outside of work that I've always wanted to do like coach a little league team or maybe write a book (that will be proofed for typos, unlike my letter).

Could you ever see yourself returning to legal practice someday?

Never say never, but I imagine I would have a rather difficult time securing employment at a firm (especially in the corporate group). If I do, it will probably be in the capacity of a sole practitioner or maybe in an academic role.

*****************************
We thank the Greenberg Traurig Letter Writer for taking the time to answer our questions. We wish him the best of luck in his future endeavors!

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/08/an_atl_interview_with_the_gree_1.php#more
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 14, 2007, 04:42:06 PM
Sucks that they didn't ask him about his feelings toward other areas of law (ie: PI work, etc).


The guy seemed to be operating under the assumption that the only kind of legal work out there was corporate work.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 14, 2007, 04:45:46 PM
Sucks that they didn't ask him about his feelings toward other areas of law (ie: PI work, etc).


The guy seemed to be operating under the assumption that the only kind of legal work out there was corporate work.

"I definitely did not consider switching practice groups within my firm or at another large firm. It's clear that most of my frustrations are fairly consistent across all big firms. In addition, I didn't really consider moving to a smaller firm or the government either. Corporate law is still corporate law, whether I do it for 70 hours a week or 40 hours a week. I never really had an interest in litigating either. Of course there are many, many other types of law a lawyer can practice. However, I feel my personality is better suited for a sales position. In addition, my new job will allow me to do certain things outside of work that I've always wanted to do like coach a little league team or maybe write a book (that will be proofed for typos, unlike my letter)."
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 14, 2007, 04:46:59 PM
I doubt his sales thing will pan out though.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 14, 2007, 04:48:47 PM
Sucks that they didn't ask him about his feelings toward other areas of law (ie: PI work, etc).


The guy seemed to be operating under the assumption that the only kind of legal work out there was corporate work.

"I definitely did not consider switching practice groups within my firm or at another large firm. It's clear that most of my frustrations are fairly consistent across all big firms. In addition, I didn't really consider moving to a smaller firm or the government either. Corporate law is still corporate law, whether I do it for 70 hours a week or 40 hours a week. I never really had an interest in litigating either. Of course there are many, many other types of law a lawyer can practice. However, I feel my personality is better suited for a sales position. In addition, my new job will allow me to do certain things outside of work that I've always wanted to do like coach a little league team or maybe write a book (that will be proofed for typos, unlike my letter)."

Yeah, but he precedes that comment with "corporate law is still corporate law."

Doesn't seem like he really ever explored other areas of law.  He may have acknowledged their existence, but never took the time to think about a different area for himself.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: shaz on August 15, 2007, 12:00:59 AM
Sales? i'd rather do personal injury work.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 15, 2007, 02:28:52 PM

Did you think about switching specialties -- e.g., from corporate to, say, litigation -- or moving to a smaller firm or to government (where you might have more control over your life)?

I definitely did not consider switching practice groups within my firm or at another large firm. It's clear that most of my frustrations are fairly  consistent across all big firms. In addition, I didn't really consider moving to a smaller firm or the government either. Corporate law is still corporate law, whether I do it for 70 hours a week or 40 hours a week. I never really had an interest in litigating either. Of course there are many, many other types of law a lawyer can practice. However, I feel my personality is better suited for a sales position. In addition, my new job will allow me to do certain things outside of work that I've always wanted to do like coach a little league team or maybe write a book (that will be proofed for typos, unlike my letter).



See I told ya'll this cat didn't want to practice law, period.  Not just corporate law but law in general.  He's basically saying here, yeah sure there are other areas of law out there BUT I don't want to do them.  I want to do sales.

Sales? i'd rather do personal injury work.

Right! 

I got suckered into one of those sh!tty sales rep positions when I was a teenager selling knives for Cutco....LOL  I made absolutely $0 over a 3 month period.  I am clearly not intended to be a sales rep.


Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 15, 2007, 02:31:35 PM
Yeah I was never one of those kids who won the prizes for selling the most whatever.  I hated those contests.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 15, 2007, 02:40:39 PM
I think this guy sounds like he enjoys working with people.  He may try to go back and become a law professor some day, but as far as legal practice, it sounds like it's pretty much a rap.  I would say he might hang his own shingle, but he clearly stated that he has no interest in litigation so there goes that theory.

Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on August 15, 2007, 04:45:24 PM
why are y'all still talking about this dude? :D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on August 15, 2007, 04:53:41 PM
do people really just go to law school to go? every story of this type seems to boil down to "i didn't know that all i was going to be doing is legal work" when i went to law school. i mean wtf? find out what a lawyer does before you go to law school. im just amazed at the number of stories like this i read, lawyers whining about being lawyers. as for the hours my friends and i were discussing this last night there are very few jobs out there where you work 40 hours anymore even if those of your hours, most everyone i know works more, on average 50-55 and most of them don't get paid for it. OT is what it is whether you're a lawyer or a secretary. you don't hear doctors complaining about shift work and having to deal with patients
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on August 15, 2007, 05:01:06 PM
do people really just go to law school to go? every story of this type seems to boil down to "i didn't know that all i was going to be doing is legal work" when i went to law school. i mean wtf? find out what a lawyer does before you go to law school. im just amazed at the number of stories like this i read, lawyers whining about being lawyers. as for the hours my friends and i were discussing this last night there are very few jobs out there where you work 40 hours anymore even if those of your hours, most everyone i know works more, on average 50-55 and most of them don't get paid for it. OT is what it is whether you're a lawyer or a secretary. you don't hear doctors complaining about shift work and having to deal with patients

yes you do. sometimes.

maybe not as much as lawyers, because what you're getting into when you go to law school is a bit more ambiguous. how are you supposed to know you don't enjoy, say, drafting contracts until you do something like it?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on August 15, 2007, 05:05:01 PM
i dont know i guess summer work, talk to corporate lawyers and find out what they do, ask professors who work in that field and find out what they do. go online and research different areas of law and find out what practioners generally do, know yourself well enough to know that you don't like sitting in an office all day. i guess thats where taking time off before law school is advantageous you can figure out what kind of work sucks for you. i dont know to me its like people who join the police force and then say they didn't know they would have to write tickets or people who sign up for the military and then say they didn't know they were going to have to go to war....
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 15, 2007, 05:09:16 PM
people who sign up for the military and then say they didn't know they were going to have to go to war....

That one always gets me.  What, you thought all they did was march through airports and get hand claps?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on August 15, 2007, 05:11:49 PM
i dont know i guess summer work, talk to corporate lawyers and find out what they do, ask professors who work in that field and find out what they do. go online and research different areas of law and find out what practioners generally do, know yourself well enough to know that you don't like sitting in an office all day. i guess thats where taking time off before law school is advantageous you can figure out what kind of work sucks for you. i dont know to me its like people who join the police force and then say they didn't know they would have to write tickets or people who sign up for the military and then say they didn't know they were going to have to go to war....

dood these are all things one does during law school, not before. Yes, it's advantageous to some to take time off pre-law school, but not others. And even then, depending on what you do you still may not discover that law isn't for you until you get there.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on August 15, 2007, 05:14:34 PM
people who sign up for the military and then say they didn't know they were going to have to go to war....

That one always gets me.  What, you thought all they did was march through airports and get hand claps?

SMH.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on August 15, 2007, 05:18:34 PM
i dont know i guess summer work, talk to corporate lawyers and find out what they do, ask professors who work in that field and find out what they do. go online and research different areas of law and find out what practioners generally do, know yourself well enough to know that you don't like sitting in an office all day. i guess thats where taking time off before law school is advantageous you can figure out what kind of work sucks for you. i dont know to me its like people who join the police force and then say they didn't know they would have to write tickets or people who sign up for the military and then say they didn't know they were going to have to go to war....

dood these are all things one does during law school, not before. Yes, it's advantageous to some to take time off pre-law school, but not others. And even then, depending on what you do you still may not discover that law isn't for you until you get there.


really i did all that before i decided to go to law school, the research anyway. granted you may not know what you're getting into to some degree, how long hours suck etc. but the dude's beefs are about being a lawyer in general. you should probably know what that means before you go to law school....my main point is that working sucks period...sales jobs suck have long hours etc. every job sucks if you ain't sittin on the beach and drinking coronas it sucks...just sayin' all these type of complaints seem to fall into the i went to law school and now i have to work as a lawyer and i dont like it....just sayin'
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 15, 2007, 05:25:23 PM
Today was pay day.  I officially crossed the five-figure line in YTD taxes >:(
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on August 15, 2007, 05:29:45 PM
Today was pay day.  I officially crossed the five-figure line in YTD taxes >:(


taxes worst idea ever....its time for another revolution
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 15, 2007, 05:31:40 PM
I don't think anyone going to law school envisions that for nine hours a day they will be pouring over a company's insurance records to make sure that that it has the required levels as specified in the water purchase agreements of municipal township XYZ.  Frankly lawyers are some of the biggest bullshitters about their job--"ooh I'm working on this super exciting merger."  Whatever you tell yourself so you keep waking up to get the paycheck.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on August 15, 2007, 05:41:11 PM
I don't think anyone going to law school envisions that for nine hours a day they will be pouring over a company's insurance records to make sure that that it has the required levels as specified in the water purchase agreements of municipal township XYZ.  Frankly lawyers are some of the biggest bullshitters about their job--"ooh I'm working on this super exciting merger."  Whatever you tell yourself so you keep waking up to get the paycheck.


of course they don't "envision" it but it's a part of the job. it's what you signed up for right along with the nice salary and the summer whining and dining. i mean ish you can just look at some threads on this board and find out what big law is like even though most people on this board remain in denial and insist big law if the only to go, and argue about things that they don't really know you can still find out a lot just on this board about big firm life. it is what it is. this dude specifically says he doesn't like writing contracts, he doesn't like structuring deals...thats what a corporate lawyer does. i don't believe he didn't have an opportunity to know that before he took a job with greenberg traurig.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 15, 2007, 05:53:59 PM
have you written a contract and "structured" a deal?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 15, 2007, 06:01:10 PM
I don't think anyone going to law school envisions that for nine hours a day they will be pouring over a company's insurance records to make sure that that it has the required levels as specified in the water purchase agreements of municipal township XYZ.  Frankly lawyers are some of the biggest bullshitters about their job--"ooh I'm working on this super exciting merger."  Whatever you tell yourself so you keep waking up to get the paycheck.

You can read books about it.  People just fool themselves into thinking that it will be better than it is.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 15, 2007, 06:09:39 PM
nobody has written a book that boring
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 15, 2007, 06:11:04 PM
nobody has written a book that boring

A few people have, and I've read some of them. 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 15, 2007, 06:13:17 PM
nobody has written a book that boring

A few people have, and I've read some of them. 

which books?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 15, 2007, 06:16:43 PM
nobody has written a book that boring

A few people have, and I've read some of them. 

which books?

Double Billing is the one that comes to mind.  There's another one I read, but I gave the book away and I can't remember the title. 

They weren't very good books, but they did certainly make clear that corporate law was full of drudgery and female dog-dom.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: shaz on August 15, 2007, 06:17:32 PM
I don't think anyone going to law school envisions that for nine hours a day they will be pouring over a company's insurance records to make sure that that it has the required levels as specified in the water purchase agreements of municipal township XYZ.  Frankly lawyers are some of the biggest bullshitters about their job--"ooh I'm working on this super exciting merger."  Whatever you tell yourself so you keep waking up to get the paycheck.

You can read books about it.  People just fool themselves into thinking that it will be better than it is.

i think i could be very bored with the work, while at the same time very excited spending my earnings.

"work was so boring today, but the long commute home in my porche made it all worth it."  ;)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on August 15, 2007, 06:19:45 PM
have you written a contract and "structured" a deal?

i didn't have a law degree so technically i could not write any contracts but i've consulted on many contracts which basically means that we look at what the client, in my case, the government wants, then we decide if we can do it and how, and then the lawyers tailor our proposal to government specifications and make sure that everything that we do is legal and doesn't violate the constitution or human rights etc.. as far as structuring that's more on the commercial side. structure for government contracts is pretty much standard...but what does that have to do with anything?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on August 15, 2007, 06:21:09 PM
I don't think anyone going to law school envisions that for nine hours a day they will be pouring over a company's insurance records to make sure that that it has the required levels as specified in the water purchase agreements of municipal township XYZ.  Frankly lawyers are some of the biggest bullshitters about their job--"ooh I'm working on this super exciting merger."  Whatever you tell yourself so you keep waking up to get the paycheck.

You can read books about it.  People just fool themselves into thinking that it will be better than it is.


exactly...and then act all enlightened and noble because they're quitting
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 15, 2007, 06:23:01 PM
nobody has written a book that boring

A few people have, and I've read some of them. 

which books?

Double Billing is the one that comes to mind.  There's another one I read, but I gave the book away and I can't remember the title. 

They weren't very good books, but they did certainly make clear that corporate law was full of drudgery and female dog-dom.

oh true--I read Double Billing.  And I've always thought corporate work sounds like a bore, but I can imagine someone could drown out any misgivings by saying "that person just couldn't hack it."  Sometimes you need to touch the stove before you actually believe it is hot.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 15, 2007, 06:25:33 PM
nobody has written a book that boring

A few people have, and I've read some of them. 

which books?

Double Billing is the one that comes to mind.  There's another one I read, but I gave the book away and I can't remember the title. 

They weren't very good books, but they did certainly make clear that corporate law was full of drudgery and female dog-dom.

oh true--I read Double Billing.  And I've always thought corporate work sounds like a bore, but I can imagine someone could drown out any misgivings by saying "that person just couldn't hack it."  Sometimes you need to touch the stove before you actually believe it is hot.

Oh yeah that's true.  Even after those books, there's still a chance of me working at a corporate firm.  But my interest is in litigation, and so much of the dissatisfaction among corporate associates seems to be skewed toward the transactional side.  Not to say litigation associates don't have their fair share of female dog-work, but they seem to be more content with their work, even when they're doing something unglamorous. 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 15, 2007, 06:30:23 PM
have you written a contract and "structured" a deal?

i didn't have a law degree so technically i could not write any contracts but i've consulted on many contracts which basically means that we look at what the client, in my case, the government wants, then we decide if we can do it and how, and then the lawyers tailor our proposal to government specifications and make sure that everything that we do is legal and doesn't violate the constitution or human rights etc.. as far as structuring that's more on the commercial side. structure for government contracts is pretty much standard...but what does that have to do with anything?

because honestly, until you have done it I don't think you would have a fair sense of whether or not you would like doing it 24-7.  Sure you can get second-hand information, but until it is you there with the client you will never know 100% how you will react--that isn't to say that people don't have the responsibility to really look into what they are getting into.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 15, 2007, 06:31:51 PM
nobody has written a book that boring

A few people have, and I've read some of them. 

which books?

Double Billing is the one that comes to mind.  There's another one I read, but I gave the book away and I can't remember the title. 

They weren't very good books, but they did certainly make clear that corporate law was full of drudgery and female dog-dom.

oh true--I read Double Billing.  And I've always thought corporate work sounds like a bore, but I can imagine someone could drown out any misgivings by saying "that person just couldn't hack it."  Sometimes you need to touch the stove before you actually believe it is hot.

Yeah, but that's their own fault b/c they were warned.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 15, 2007, 06:32:31 PM
nobody has written a book that boring

A few people have, and I've read some of them. 

which books?

Double Billing is the one that comes to mind.  There's another one I read, but I gave the book away and I can't remember the title. 

They weren't very good books, but they did certainly make clear that corporate law was full of drudgery and female dog-dom.

oh true--I read Double Billing.  And I've always thought corporate work sounds like a bore, but I can imagine someone could drown out any misgivings by saying "that person just couldn't hack it."  Sometimes you need to touch the stove before you actually believe it is hot.

Oh yeah that's true.  Even after those books, there's still a chance of me working at a corporate firm.  But my interest is in litigation, and so much of the dissatisfaction among corporate associates seems to be skewed toward the transactional side.  Not to say litigation associates don't have their fair share of female dog-work, but they seem to be more content with their work, even when they're doing something unglamorous. 

Especially if you go to a firm that uses contract attorneys to do 90% of the doc review ;)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 15, 2007, 06:33:32 PM
Especially if you go to a firm that uses contract attorneys to do 90% of the doc review ;)

Is that what yours does?

If so, I'm even more determined to work there.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 15, 2007, 06:33:57 PM
trust that 10% is still a female dog
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on August 15, 2007, 06:39:08 PM
have you written a contract and "structured" a deal?

i didn't have a law degree so technically i could not write any contracts but i've consulted on many contracts which basically means that we look at what the client, in my case, the government wants, then we decide if we can do it and how, and then the lawyers tailor our proposal to government specifications and make sure that everything that we do is legal and doesn't violate the constitution or human rights etc.. as far as structuring that's more on the commercial side. structure for government contracts is pretty much standard...but what does that have to do with anything?

because honestly, until you have done it I don't think you would have a fair sense of whether or not you would like doing it 24-7.  Sure you can get second-hand information, but until it is you there with the client you will never know 100% how you will react--that isn't to say that people don't have the responsibility to really look into what they are getting into.


the fact that my entire career for the past 10 years has revolved around contracts and their formation, and that the fact that because i was forbidden by law, due to not being a lawyer, to actually put pen to paper and write down the words detailing how my company would meet the governments specifications being irrelevant aside, are you serious??? or just trying to keep an argument going? i watched somebody clean a porty potty once that was enough to know that i would not like doing it 24/7  ::)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 15, 2007, 06:39:24 PM

oh true--I read Double Billing.  And I've always thought corporate work sounds like a bore, but I can imagine someone could drown out any misgivings by saying "that person just couldn't hack it."  Sometimes you need to touch the stove before you actually believe it is hot.

Yeah, but that's their own fault b/c they were warned
[/quote]

Just as you were "warned" about Yale from reading Anarchy and Elegance?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 15, 2007, 06:40:35 PM
Especially if you go to a firm that uses contract attorneys to do 90% of the doc review ;)

Is that what yours does?

If so, I'm even more determined to work there.

Yup.  While you still do some, it makes life much better, and you're actually looking at the important stuff.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 15, 2007, 06:41:31 PM

oh true--I read Double Billing.  And I've always thought corporate work sounds like a bore, but I can imagine someone could drown out any misgivings by saying "that person just couldn't hack it."  Sometimes you need to touch the stove before you actually believe it is hot.

Quote
Yeah, but that's their own fault b/c they were warned

Just as you were "warned" about Yale from reading Anarchy and Elegance?

I didn't read that book, but nothing about YLS has surprised me.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 15, 2007, 06:42:19 PM
Especially if you go to a firm that uses contract attorneys to do 90% of the doc review ;)

Is that what yours does?

If so, I'm even more determined to work there.

Yup.  While you still do some, it makes life much better, and you're actually looking at the important stuff.

Knowing you you're also looking down at the poor contract attorneys.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 15, 2007, 06:48:25 PM
have you written a contract and "structured" a deal?

i didn't have a law degree so technically i could not write any contracts but i've consulted on many contracts which basically means that we look at what the client, in my case, the government wants, then we decide if we can do it and how, and then the lawyers tailor our proposal to government specifications and make sure that everything that we do is legal and doesn't violate the constitution or human rights etc.. as far as structuring that's more on the commercial side. structure for government contracts is pretty much standard...but what does that have to do with anything?

because honestly, until you have done it I don't think you would have a fair sense of whether or not you would like doing it 24-7.  Sure you can get second-hand information, but until it is you there with the client you will never know 100% how you will react--that isn't to say that people don't have the responsibility to really look into what they are getting into.


the fact that my entire career for the past 10 years has revolved around contracts and their formation, and that the fact that because i was forbidden by law, due to not being a lawyer, to actually put pen to paper and write down the words detailing how my company would meet the governments specifications being irrelevant aside, are you serious??? or just trying to keep an argument going? i watched somebody clean a porty potty once that was enough to know that i would not like doing it 24/7  ::)

I'm asking if you expect everyone to follow your path in knowing whether being a corporate lawyer is right for them.  I've done plenty of work revolving around contracts pre-law school--it doesn't mean that I have a great sense of the day to day aspects of being a corporate lawyer.  And frankly what little I have experienced, I want none of.  By contrast I enjoyed working with and preparing the limited contractual work I was exposed to pre-law school.  If I went in with blinders thinking it would be the same thing or similar, I'd be in for a rude shock.  
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 15, 2007, 06:48:36 PM
Especially if you go to a firm that uses contract attorneys to do 90% of the doc review ;)

Is that what yours does?

If so, I'm even more determined to work there.

Yup.  While you still do some, it makes life much better, and you're actually looking at the important stuff.

Knowing you you're also looking down at the poor contract attorneys.

No, they know what they are getting themselves into.  In exchange for flexibility and predictability, they get the drudge work.  Whatever floats your boat.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 15, 2007, 06:49:12 PM
Especially if you go to a firm that uses contract attorneys to do 90% of the doc review ;)

Is that what yours does?

If so, I'm even more determined to work there.

Yup.  While you still do some, it makes life much better, and you're actually looking at the important stuff.

Knowing you you're also looking down at the poor contract attorneys.

No, they know what they are getting themselves into.  In exchange for flexibility and predictability, they get the drudge work.  Whatever floats your boat.

They get paid below market?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 15, 2007, 06:50:16 PM

oh true--I read Double Billing.  And I've always thought corporate work sounds like a bore, but I can imagine someone could drown out any misgivings by saying "that person just couldn't hack it."  Sometimes you need to touch the stove before you actually believe it is hot.

Quote
Yeah, but that's their own fault b/c they were warned

Just as you were "warned" about Yale from reading Anarchy and Elegance?

I didn't read that book, but nothing about YLS has surprised me.

read the book--a bunch of whining.  there are plenty of annoying things about YLS--but if you read that book as your warning you wouldn't get an accurate picture.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 15, 2007, 06:50:32 PM
Especially if you go to a firm that uses contract attorneys to do 90% of the doc review ;)

Is that what yours does?

If so, I'm even more determined to work there.

Yup.  While you still do some, it makes life much better, and you're actually looking at the important stuff.

Knowing you you're also looking down at the poor contract attorneys.

No, they know what they are getting themselves into.  In exchange for flexibility and predictability, they get the drudge work.  Whatever floats your boat.

They get paid below market?

I don't know what they're paid, but they're not regular attorneys, so no, they're not paid market (or above it).
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 15, 2007, 06:52:35 PM
Especially if you go to a firm that uses contract attorneys to do 90% of the doc review ;)

Is that what yours does?

If so, I'm even more determined to work there.

Yup.  While you still do some, it makes life much better, and you're actually looking at the important stuff.

Knowing you you're also looking down at the poor contract attorneys.

No, they know what they are getting themselves into.  In exchange for flexibility and predictability, they get the drudge work.  Whatever floats your boat.

They get paid below market?

they get paid crap wages.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 15, 2007, 06:56:26 PM
At least they have jobs.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 15, 2007, 06:59:57 PM
At least they have jobs.

the walmart workers of the legal profession.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Denny Crane on August 15, 2007, 07:01:57 PM
Something tells me that one of the most enjoyable experiences I'll have in law school is seeing you two guys duke it out IRL.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 15, 2007, 07:08:04 PM
At least they have jobs.

the walmart workers of the legal profession.

Lol perhaps.  But without the arrangement, they'd probably be making even less as solos or in slip and fall firms.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 16, 2007, 08:46:08 AM
At least they have jobs.

the walmart workers of the legal profession.

Lol perhaps.  But without the arrangement, they'd probably be making even less as solos or in slip and fall firms.

Have you seen the credentials of the contract lawyers at our summer firm? Further, PI and solo practice can be extraordinarily lucrative.

Can be, but for the vast majority isn't.  I'm not talking about other regular firm jobs they could get.  Obviously these people don't want that.  So the current arrangement is better than other lawyer jobs that allow such independence and flexibility.  They get decent pay and excellent benefits this way.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 16, 2007, 09:14:12 AM
I think I've posted this before, but...

SLAVES OF NEW YORK

By Julie Triedman
The American Lawyer
March 2006

AT 4 P.M. DOWN IN the basement of a large New York firm, a temporary attorney plots his escape. After days of staring into a flickering computer screen for 12 hours, he can't bear to code another document. The temp's destination is modest: a Starbucks across the street. But aside from lunch and bathroom breaks, he can't leave the floor. If he does, he'll lose his job. At another firm, the temps were first assigned to a conference room with a window, but then transferred to a room they call "the pit."

These are the kinds of stories temps tell each other from the comfort of their anonymous blogs. And to hear them tell it, working conditions are awful now that law firms are hiring more temps to do the drudge work formerly reserved for associates. There is Temporary Attorney, whose anonymous protagonist, "Tom the Temp," says he was downsized from a big firm; DC Temp, written by a self-described "attorney in waiting"; and Cribspace, whose author claims to be a 28-year-old licensed attorney recently employed at Cravath, Swaine & Moore. The relevant URLs are dctemp.blogspot.com, temporaryattorney.blogspot.co m, and cribspace.blogspot.com.

One reason for the surge in temp work is that firms now perform more discovery than ever. Another is that many grads of second- and third-tier law schools are unable to land associate jobs at big firms. Rather than take a low salary at a small firm, they sign on for steady temp work with the big firms. (New York Law School, for example, says that its 2004 grads at small firms earn between $35,000 and $51,000.)

By contrast, temp agencies pay $19 to $25 an hour to unlicensed J.D.s. Licensed J.D.s can earn up to $35 per hour, and specialized lawyers can top $100 an hour, say two staffing agency recruiters. Most temps are paid time and a half when they work more than 40 hours.

But oh, the pain of it all. At most firms, temps do online document review, a process that involves reading e-mail and documents and tagging them with a code that states their relevance to the case at hand. It's grueling work, made more so by their invisibility. "Tom the Temp" has sparked a lively debate by declaring the system inefficient and urging temps to unionize. But one of his anonymous posters calls the system efficient, saying, "The bottom line is that utilization of [temps] increases the revenue stream, and profits, for the partners at the firms where [they] are utilized." Otherwise, the source says, firms wouldn't use them. That opinion was seconded by a partner at a top New York firm who spoke on condition of anonymity. This source says he uses temp lawyers because he can bill the work to clients at associate rates, or $180?$200 an hour. His firm pays the agencies $50?$65 per hour and pockets the rest. (Recruiters confirm those agency rates, but say that rates and law firm markups are dropping.)

One firm in particular has come under fire for its work conditions: Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison, which Tom recently named "Sweatshop of the Year." Tom's complaints were corroborated by a Paul, Weiss temp who provided proof of his employment and spoke on condition of anonymity. This source says he was one of 40 temps working 12-hour stints six days a week at the firm's New York office. He says they were corralled in a windowless basement room littered with dead cockroaches, and that six of seven exits were blocked.

Paul, Weiss managing partner Alfred Youngwood concedes that some "J.D. paras" work on the "concourse level" and that in one room a few exits are blocked. But, he says, the firm complies with safety codes. He declines to say how much the firm bills clients for the work. These "are not the people who are getting billed out at $200 an hour," he says. "They're not doing legal work."

The Paul, Weiss temp disagrees. Along with coding for responsiveness, he says, he is expected to review for privilege. "It's true we spend probably 80 percent of the day bullshitting and wandering around," this temp confides. "But when you're paying an attorney $20 an hour, what do you expect?"



Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 16, 2007, 09:20:00 AM
Well our contract attorneys get offices with windows (most are in the building across the street, but a few are in our building) and benefits.  I also saw a bunch at our free in-house CLE the other day.  So I'd say conditions vary by firm.  I wouldn't really expect any better than the article in NYC, where associates often double up in offices and such.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 16, 2007, 09:24:47 AM
do people really just go to law school to go? every story of this type seems to boil down to "i didn't know that all i was going to be doing is legal work" when i went to law school. i mean wtf? find out what a lawyer does before you go to law school. im just amazed at the number of stories like this i read, lawyers whining about being lawyers. as for the hours my friends and i were discussing this last night there are very few jobs out there where you work 40 hours anymore even if those of your hours, most everyone i know works more, on average 50-55 and most of them don't get paid for it. OT is what it is whether you're a lawyer or a secretary. you don't hear doctors complaining about shift work and having to deal with patients

TITCR

My frat brother just graduated from Med School the same week I graduated from Law School.  He's doing a residency right now, making about $35k/yr and over the past 2 weeks alone this brother has worked 173 hours.  (one hundred seventy-three)  He did not get any bonuses for any of his hours in excess of 40/week.  No salary increase.  Not even a pat on the back.  Just more work.  So as far as hours go, like Jarhead said here, that's just life in the working world basically.  When I worked for my engineering firm prior to law school I was paid the same salary no matter if I worked 40 hours a week or 60 hours a week, and, of course, I don't think I ever saw anything less than a 50 hour work week unless I took a day off or something.

So there seem to be two shockers for these type of cats:

#1. is that college grads who read the XOXO and LSD sites and saw that they can make 6 figures in 3 years got like  :o and decided to go to law school before they fully understood what that even means or what we do; they get out and are sonn figure out no matter how much money you give me, I hate the law.

#2. is for those folks who, maybe b/c they've never worked before, see anything above 40 hrs/wk as a horrible and unbearable existence, not realizing that work hours suck everywhere unless you're flipping burgers for McDonalds (and even then you might get screwed into working extra shifts by your sadistic mad-at-the-world manager because some teenybopper decided to stay home and play PS3 all day instead of manning the grill)





Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 16, 2007, 09:25:09 AM
Well our contract attorneys get offices with windows (most are in the building across the street, but a few are in our building) and benefits.  I also saw a bunch at our free in-house CLE the other day.  So I'd say conditions vary by firm.  I wouldn't really expect any better than the article in NYC, where associates often double up in offices and such.

some Walmarts are better than others
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 16, 2007, 09:27:31 AM
;)

Although I think there is a difference in that any attorney can set up his own shop.  So I have even less sympathy.  A Wal-Mart greeter can't similarly export his greeting skills.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 16, 2007, 09:29:10 AM
;)

Although I think there is a difference in that any attorney can set up his own shop.  So I have even less sympathy.  A Wal-Mart greeter can't similarly export his greeting skills.

umm tell that to the panhandlers
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 16, 2007, 09:30:57 AM
;)

Although I think there is a difference in that any attorney can set up his own shop.  So I have even less sympathy.  A Wal-Mart greeter can't similarly export his greeting skills.

umm tell that to the panhandlers

LMFAO :D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 16, 2007, 09:32:31 AM
Then there are cats (like me) who realized that law can be drudgery but still somehow thought it could be used for social change. Then you get to law school and realize that's a myth.

You do?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 16, 2007, 09:36:07 AM
I think the law can still be used for social change when we get rid of or at the very least balance out the Reagan and Dubya appointees.  Until then though, it just feels like continuously running into a brick wall and after awhile you start thinking, *&^% if I'm gonna get bruised, I should get paid for this ish!  Holla at my 200k!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 16, 2007, 09:39:51 AM
"Social change" is a broad category.  Some areas are more changeable than others.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 16, 2007, 09:45:00 AM
"Social change" is a broad category.  Some areas are more changeable than others.

which are more changeable?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 16, 2007, 09:49:51 AM
nobody has written a book that boring

A few people have, and I've read some of them. 

which books?

Double Billing is the one that comes to mind.  There's another one I read, but I gave the book away and I can't remember the title. 

They weren't very good books, but they did certainly make clear that corporate law was full of drudgery and female dog-dom.

oh true--I read Double Billing.  And I've always thought corporate work sounds like a bore, but I can imagine someone could drown out any misgivings by saying "that person just couldn't hack it."  Sometimes you need to touch the stove before you actually believe it is hot.

Oh yeah that's true.  Even after those books, there's still a chance of me working at a corporate firm.  But my interest is in litigation, and so much of the dissatisfaction among corporate associates seems to be skewed toward the transactional side.  Not to say litigation associates don't have their fair share of female dog-work, but they seem to be more content with their work, even when they're doing something unglamorous. 

I concur 100%.

No disrespect to anybody's dream of transactional corporate work, but transactional law isn't even law in my opinion.  More like MBA work.  I think I'd be pissed if I went thru 3 years of law school and suffered through Legal Research & Writing, a couple internships and externships learning how to make arguments like a lawyer only to sit at my desk each day as an attorney pushing paperwork around for somebody's merger & acquisition or similar paperwork which has nothing to do with caselaw, judicial opinions, or anything else that we (allegedly) read about in those case books for 3 years.

Some people love it though, so whatever floats your boat.  One associate at my firm told me that she was absolutely thrilled knowing that she would never have to look up another case on lexisnexis or westlaw ever again or ever have to set foot inside of a courtoom ever again.  For me, researching & understanding the law better than your adversary, making & supporting those legal arguments and taking it all to court is appealing to me, so litigation is where I'm at.





Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 16, 2007, 09:53:16 AM
One associate at my firm told me that she was absolutely thrilled knowing that she would never have to look up another case on lexisnexis or westlaw ever again or ever have to set foot inside of a courtoom ever again.  For me, researching & understanding the law better than your adversary, making & supporting those legal arguments and taking it all to court is appealing to me, so litigation is where I'm at.

Ditto.  But the g/f agrees with the associate.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 16, 2007, 09:54:08 AM
"Social change" is a broad category.  Some areas are more changeable than others.

which are more changeable?

Hmm.  Housing?  Gay rights seem to be malleable right now as well.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jd06 on August 16, 2007, 09:54:20 AM
For me, researching & understanding the law better than your adversary, making & supporting those legal arguments and taking it all to court is appealing to me, so litigation is where I'm at.

Amen, brother.  That's what it's all about to me, as well.  I enjoy it so much that I'd probably do it for free and get a second job to support myself  ;)  
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 16, 2007, 10:00:51 AM
"Social change" is a broad category.  Some areas are more changeable than others.

which are more changeable?

Hmm.  Housing?  Gay rights seem to be malleable right now as well.

no to the bolded.

maybe to gay rights, but like criminal justice, I'm not passionate enough about the issues to do it justice.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 16, 2007, 10:01:40 AM
Especially if you go to a firm that uses contract attorneys to do 90% of the doc review ;)

Is that what yours does?

If so, I'm even more determined to work there.

Yup.  While you still do some, it makes life much better, and you're actually looking at the important stuff.

Knowing you you're also looking down at the poor contract attorneys.

No, they know what they are getting themselves into.  In exchange for flexibility and predictability, they get the drudge work.  Whatever floats your boat.

They get paid below market?

I don't know what they're paid, but they're not regular attorneys, so no, they're not paid market (or above it).


Somebody told me this once...they definitely do not get market pay but they still get pretty good cheese considering.  I'm pretty sure they get above 100k/yr. or pretty close to it (at least in NY)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 16, 2007, 10:02:50 AM
"Social change" is a broad category.  Some areas are more changeable than others.

which are more changeable?

Hmm.  Housing?  Gay rights seem to be malleable right now as well.

no to the bolded.

maybe to gay rights, but like criminal justice, I'm not passionate about the topic to do it justice.


Lol just b/c you're not passionate doesn't mean there isn't room for social change.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jd06 on August 16, 2007, 10:06:22 AM
Right now in the area where I practice there's lots of groundbreaking litigation going on as to the rights and privileges enjoyed by registered domestic partners v. married couples.  The CA Family Code says they're equivalent but case law has said otherwise in some instances so we've got lots of battles going on in that front....
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 16, 2007, 10:08:00 AM

Lol just b/c you're not passionate doesn't mean there isn't room for social change.

I don't think I ever argued that there was absolutely no room for any kind of social change.  Nice try though sucka.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 16, 2007, 10:08:16 AM
"Social change" is a broad category.  Some areas are more changeable than others.

which are more changeable?

Hmm.  Housing?  Gay rights seem to be malleable right now as well.

no to the bolded.

maybe to gay rights, but like criminal justice, I'm not passionate about the topic to do it justice.


Lol just b/c you're not passionate doesn't mean there isn't room for social change.

Okay. So you go to law school thinking it can create social change IN CERTAIN AREAS but you can't. The point still remains.

What point?  Yeah, with experience comes knowledge.  I used to think appellate litigation was sexy.  Now I think the opposite.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jd06 on August 16, 2007, 10:14:11 AM
Right now in the area where I practice there's lots of groundbreaking litigation going on as to the rights and privileges enjoyed by registered domestic partners v. married couples.  The CA Family Code says they're equivalent but case law has said otherwise in some instances so we've got lots of battles going on in that front....

let's hope you don't get to SCOTUS.

The issue is at the CA SC level right now.  Typically these "social issues" crawl up the ladder via a unique case that a person at my level might handle initially, but then an appellate attorney takes the lower court decision and runs with it.  Believe me, the people making these appellate arguments are superior litigators, typically with 30+ years of experience.  Way, way out of my league!   :)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 16, 2007, 10:26:45 AM
For me, researching & understanding the law better than your adversary, making & supporting those legal arguments and taking it all to court is appealing to me, so litigation is where I'm at.

Amen, brother.  That's what it's all about to me, as well.  I enjoy it so much that I'd probably do it for free and get a second job to support myself  ;)  

LOL :D

Fortunately for us, it pays the bills pretty well by itself.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 23, 2007, 08:59:08 PM
Lawyers Gear Up Grand New Fees
Hourly Rates Increasingly Hit $1,000,
Breaching a Level Once Seen as Taboo
By NATHAN KOPPEL
August 22, 2007; Page B1

The hourly rates of the country's top lawyers are increasingly coming with something new -- a comma.

A few attorneys crossed into $1,000-per-hour billing before this year, but recent moves to the four-figure mark in New York, which sets trends for legal markets around the country, are seen as a significant turning point.

On Sept. 1, New York's Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP will raise its top rate to more than $1,000 from $950. Firm partner Barry Ostrager, a litigator, says he will be one of the firm's thousand-dollar billers, along with private-equity specialist Richard Beattie and antitrust lawyer Kevin Arquit. The top biller at New York's Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP hit $1,000 per hour earlier this year. At Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson LLP, also of New York, bankruptcy attorney Brad Scheler, now at $995 per hour, will likely soon charge $1,000.

At large firms, billable rates have climbed steadily over the years, since 2000 rising an average of 6% to 7% annually, according to the law-firm group of Citi Private Bank, a unit of Citigroup Inc. But for some time, the highest-billing partners at top big-city firms have hovered in the mid-to-high $900 range, hesitant to cross the four-figure threshold. "We have viewed $1,000 an hour as a possible vomit point for clients," says a partner at a New York firm. "Frankly, it's a little hard to think about anyone who doesn't save lives being worth this much money," says David Boies, one of the nation's best-known trial lawyers, at the Armonk, N.Y., office of Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP.

A select group of attorneys began billing at that rate before this year, such as Stephen Susman, a founding partner of a Houston firm who has tried big-ticket cases around the country, and Benjamin Civiletti, a former U.S. Attorney General under President Carter and a senior partner at Washington, D.C-based Venable LLP. And in London, top attorneys bill at rates that, when converted, can hit almost $1,500 an hour.

As a critical mass develops around fees of $1,000 an hour in New York, though, more firms may feel comfortable going to that level and beyond. "One-thousand dollars per hour has symbolic significance," says Robert Rosenberg, a Latham & Watkins LLP partner who bills $925 an hour. "But like the year 2000, it's just a number."

Yet, many attorneys are still reluctant to charge $1,000 an hour. "There is a perception issue between $1,050 and $950," says Hugh Ray, a partner at Andrews Kurth LLP in Houston. "At some point, you look bad if you go too high." Mr. Boies says psychology in part has held him back from charging more than $880 per hour, noting, "When I started practicing law in 1966, my billing rate was considerably under $100."

Law firms also derive comfort from running with the pack. "We prefer not to be market leaders when it comes to rates," says J. Gregory Milmoe, a bankruptcy attorney at Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP in New York. Mr. Milmoe says in September his hourly rate will climb to $950.

Firms' hesitation to breach the $1,000 mark shows that legal services aren't unlike other high-end products that sell at "just under" prices, like the $19,900 car, says Eric Anderson, a marketing professor at Northwestern University's Kellogg School of Management. "The sellers are worried that they will be perceived as extremely expensive."

Some clients' reactions bear that out. Brackett Denniston III, the general counsel of General Electric Co., says the company has paid $1,000 per hour for "specialized" legal advice. Still, "that's a line we'd rather not see crossed," Mr. Denniston says. "A thousand dollars per hour is emblematic of the high cost of major law firms," he says. "More than rates, my greater concern is the overall inflation level" in legal costs.

Thomas Sager, assistant general counsel of DuPont Co., says he recently balked when a New York lawyer cited $1,000 as his hourly rate. Instead, Mr. Sager says, he agreed to pay the attorney a flat monthly fee. "One-thousand dollars may be someone's choke point, but mine is actually a lot lower," he says.
[Thousand-Dollar Man]

Still, some lawyers are confident they're worth $1,000 per hour, and that now's the time to break the barrier. "I haven't personally experienced resistance to my billing rates," Mr. Ostrager says. "The legal marketplace is very sophisticated."

Law firms say the boosts aren't just about lining partners' pockets. They're partly a response to booming costs, which in recent years have included skyrocketing associate salaries -- first-year lawyers in many firms make $160,000 a year -- and expenses associated with geographic expansion.

While it's hard to raise prices on standard legal work, for matters such as bet-the-company deals, intricate patent disputes, huge bankruptcies or complex antitrust litigation, firms often feel they can raise fees for name-brand partners without upsetting clients.

Indeed, clients are often most cost-conscious about junior attorneys, believing they provide less value-per-dollar than senior counsel. Considering a major-league baseball player can make the equivalent of $15,000 per hour, "$1,000 for very seasoned lawyers who can solve complex problems doesn't seem to be inappropriate," says Mike Dillon, the general counsel of Sun Microsystems Inc.

Hourly rates, of course, tell just part of the fee story. Firms occasionally discount their stated rates for top clients. And companies sometimes prefer to pay their lawyers a flat fee for each case or deal, believing it encourages more efficiency than billing by the hour.

Plaintiffs trial lawyers often bill on a contingency-fee basis, earning a share of a settlement or verdict -- an amount that can dwarf top rates. "It represents an opportunity cost when I am working by the hour," says Mr. Susman, who last year raised his hourly fee to $1,100. He did it in part, he says, "to discourage anyone hiring me on that basis."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118775188828405048.html?mod=hps_us_whats_news
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: smujd2007 on August 23, 2007, 09:09:53 PM
A THOUSAND DOLLARS AN HOUR?

CRAZY!!!!!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 23, 2007, 09:15:39 PM
Lol Edward Bennett Williams was charging that in the 80s.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 23, 2007, 09:18:21 PM

Law firms say the boosts aren't just about lining partners' pockets. They're partly a response to booming costs, which in recent years have included skyrocketing associate salaries -- first-year lawyers in many firms make $160,000 a year -- and expenses associated with geographic expansion.


bull.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 23, 2007, 09:22:41 PM
Agreed.  A look at PPP growth proves that.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 23, 2007, 09:27:38 PM
Yup, I've been reading The Man To See, his 500-page biography, over the past week.  A very good book!  Almost done, and yes, I'm part of the cult now ;)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 24, 2007, 10:34:32 AM
A THOUSAND DOLLARS AN HOUR?

CRAZY!!!!!


That is kinda up there.  But they're billing us rookies out at somewhere around $200/hr to $250/hr, which when I first heard I thought was kinda wild in and of itself but hey...

I guess that's our profession. 

Think about what Doctors are billed at.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: smujd2007 on August 24, 2007, 06:41:29 PM


Cost of living down here is a little different I guess. New solo practitioners in Texas bill about 150-175 an hour to start.

A THOUSAND DOLLARS AN HOUR?

CRAZY!!!!!


That is kinda up there.  But they're billing us rookies out at somewhere around $200/hr to $250/hr, which when I first heard I thought was kinda wild in and of itself but hey...

I guess that's our profession. 

Think about what Doctors are billed at.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 24, 2007, 07:09:28 PM
You're going solo?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: smujd2007 on August 24, 2007, 07:15:24 PM
Lol.  I wish. I don't have the guts to do that now. But if I don't start getting some call backs and interviews soon, I might consider it . . . :-\

I just know because I used to work for 3 solo practitioners.


quote author=#1 link=topic=67616.msg2392635#msg2392635 date=1188004168]
You're going solo?
[/quote]
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 24, 2007, 07:17:02 PM
Ah ok, cool.  Good luck!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 25, 2007, 09:51:03 AM


Cost of living down here is a little different I guess. New solo practitioners in Texas bill about 150-175 an hour to start.

A THOUSAND DOLLARS AN HOUR?

CRAZY!!!!!


That is kinda up there.  But they're billing us rookies out at somewhere around $200/hr to $250/hr, which when I first heard I thought was kinda wild in and of itself but hey...

I guess that's our profession. 

Think about what Doctors are billed at.


Yeah you guys have us beat hands down on cost of living vs. salary.  NY needs to raise its market rate again just to equal where all the other large city markets are currently at right now.  With all the big cities starting their new associates at $160k, NY is actually coming out in last place when you consider cost of living.


Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: smujd2007 on August 25, 2007, 02:30:45 PM
I've heard great things about living in NYC, DC, and on the east coast, but I couldn't do it.  You practically HAVE to work a big firm job to sustain a decent living.

Whereas here, at least you have a shot at doing something nonprofit, public interest, or small firm and/or government, and still be able to pay rent or a mortgage.  :-\

quote author=Burning Sands link=topic=67616.msg2393064#msg2393064 date=1188057063]


Cost of living down here is a little different I guess. New solo practitioners in Texas bill about 150-175 an hour to start.

A THOUSAND DOLLARS AN HOUR?

CRAZY!!!!!


That is kinda up there.  But they're billing us rookies out at somewhere around $200/hr to $250/hr, which when I first heard I thought was kinda wild in and of itself but hey...

I guess that's our profession. 

Think about what Doctors are billed at.


Yeah you guys have us beat hands down on cost of living vs. salary.  NY needs to raise its market rate again just to equal where all the other large city markets are currently at right now.  With all the big cities starting their new associates at $160k, NY is actually coming out in last place when you consider cost of living.



[/quote]
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Gengiswump on August 25, 2007, 03:05:08 PM
I've heard great things about living in NYC, DC, and on the east coast, but I couldn't do it.  You practically HAVE to work a big firm job to sustain a decent living.


I dunno that that's true - it just depends on how you define "decent."
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 25, 2007, 07:29:52 PM
Man...actually she's got a pretty good argument there for the NYC folks.  I often wonder how in the world folks make it out here who are not Donald Trump.  When you live in a city where the average run of the mill, regular ol', non-john blazed, anti-spectacular apartment goes for thousands of dollars a month...your hand is pretty much forced.  Either bring home the bacon, live with 10 people, live in the hood, or if you don't want to do any of those then you have to live about an hour away.

The only thing that amazes me more than how outrageous the cost of living is in NYC are the amount of people who can actually afford it.  There are literally thousands of millionaire's  living in NYC.  Making 6 figures here makes you middle class.  They ran a story on Good Morning NY last year and said that in order for a family living in Manhattan to live "comfortably,"1 that family would have to clear about $500,000/yr after taxes.

1 - they defined "comfortably" as a family with a husband, wife, and one kid, with one car, one mortgage, living in a two bedroom apartment with at least 1000 sf, taking one vacation a year, and some other similar factors.

Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 25, 2007, 07:58:18 PM
Man...actually she's got a pretty good argument there for the NYC folks.  I often wonder how in the world folks make it out here who are not Donald Trump.  When you live in a city where the average run of the mill, regular ol', non-john blazed, anti-spectacular apartment goes for thousands of dollars a month...your hand is pretty much forced.  Either bring home the bacon, live with 10 people, live in the hood, or if you don't want to do any of those then you have to live about an hour away.

The only thing that amazes me more than how outrageous the cost of living is in NYC are the amount of people who can actually afford it.  There are literally thousands of millionaire's  living in NYC.  Making 6 figures here makes you middle class.  They ran a story on Good Morning NY last year and said that in order for a family living in Manhattan to live "comfortably,"1 that family would have to clear about $500,000/yr after taxes.

1 - they defined "comfortably" as a family with a husband, wife, and one kid, with one car, one mortgage, living in a two bedroom apartment with at least 1000 sf, taking one vacation a year, and some other similar factors.



It really is amazing.  But just think of all of the biglaw partners, i-bankers, and hedge fund managers, and then the people one step below.  They're enough to pretty much corner the manhattan market.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: smujd2007 on August 25, 2007, 08:03:26 PM
Yeah. that one kid thing is freaking me out.
 :-\

I want at least 3. :D :D :D :D :D :D

Lol.  I have seen similar stats on living in NYC. I'll just have to be content with visiting one day. To put it in perspective, you can sustain yourself comfortably (minus student loans) as a single person on 50-60K/yr. Then too, it depends on what your law school loans look like, too.

Man...actually she's got a pretty good argument there for the NYC folks.  I often wonder how in the world folks make it out here who are not Donald Trump.  When you live in a city where the average run of the mill, regular ol', non-john blazed, anti-spectacular apartment goes for thousands of dollars a month...your hand is pretty much forced.  Either bring home the bacon, live with 10 people, live in the hood, or if you don't want to do any of those then you have to live about an hour away.

The only thing that amazes me more than how outrageous the cost of living is in NYC are the amount of people who can actually afford it.  There are literally thousands of millionaire's  living in NYC.  Making 6 figures here makes you middle class.  They ran a story on Good Morning NY last year and said that in order for a family living in Manhattan to live "comfortably,"1 that family would have to clear about $500,000/yr after taxes.

1 - they defined "comfortably" as a family with a husband, wife, and one kid, with one car, one mortgage, living in a two bedroom apartment with at least 1000 sf, taking one vacation a year, and some other similar factors.


Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: naturallybeyoutiful on August 25, 2007, 08:06:55 PM
tag
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 25, 2007, 09:41:59 PM
what do you need a car for in NYC and why buy when you can rent (and there is rent control)?  Sure you sacrifice to live in the city, but the particular scenario seems geared to make it a losing proposition.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on August 25, 2007, 10:08:27 PM
what do you need a car for in NYC and why buy when you can rent (and there is rent control)?  Sure you sacrifice to live in the city, but you the particular scenario seems geared to make it a losing proposition.

that's true, there's no *real* need for a car here...but i do wish i had one sometimes.  as for renting...after ls, if i do stay here, i don't plan to rent forever.  and it is HARD as @#!* to find a nice rent controlled place in NYC.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 25, 2007, 10:19:12 PM
what do you need a car for in NYC and why buy when you can rent (and there is rent control)?  Sure you sacrifice to live in the city, but you the particular scenario seems geared to make it a losing proposition.

that's true, there's no *real* need for a car here...but i do wish i had one sometimes.  as for renting...after ls, if i do stay here, i don't plan to rent forever.  and it is HARD as @#!* to find a nice rent controlled place in NYC.

I don't disagree, but according to Sands the report said they need those things just to be "comfortable"--I think those are relative luxuries.  heck depending on how we define nyc, if the couple moved out to Jersey City I bet they could get all of that with a more reasonable salary.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on August 25, 2007, 10:28:07 PM
what do you need a car for in NYC and why buy when you can rent (and there is rent control)?  Sure you sacrifice to live in the city, but you the particular scenario seems geared to make it a losing proposition.

that's true, there's no *real* need for a car here...but i do wish i had one sometimes.  as for renting...after ls, if i do stay here, i don't plan to rent forever.  and it is HARD as @#!* to find a nice rent controlled place in NYC.

I don't disagree, but according to Sands the report said they need those things just to be "comfortable"--I think those are relative luxuries.  heck depending on how we define nyc, if the couple moved out to Jersey City I bet they could get all of that with a more reasonable salary.

yea but that's up the whim of whoever wrote the report and their definition of comfort  in the first place. 

plus, some rent payments = a mortgage, so i'd rather have a mortgage
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 25, 2007, 10:33:43 PM
of course, but we can certainly challenge that definition.

if you don't include the downpayment and maintenance I would agree, but I think if we're talking about the heart of Manhattan it ends up costing less to rent than to buy.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on August 25, 2007, 10:35:46 PM
of course, but we can certainly challenge that definition.

if you don't include the downpayment and maintenance I would agree, but I think if we're talking about the heart of Manhattan it ends up costing less to rent than to buy.

who wants to be paying someone else's mortgage by renting for a good period of time?  i sure as hell don't, and want to get a my own place asap.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: blk_reign on August 25, 2007, 10:38:39 PM
i dunno man.. in all probability i'd never live in ny due to the cost of living...and for the weather i'd stick to chicago.. but renting there makes no sense to me if u're making close to 200k...assuming that there are two incomes close to a 400k household..and if u can't afford to live there.. then you simply shouldn't... problems come into play when folks live beyond their means or attempt to keep up with the Jones'

nyc isn't for the cheapskates

of course, but we can certainly challenge that definition.

if you don't include the downpayment and maintenance I would agree, but I think if we're talking about the heart of Manhattan it ends up costing less to rent than to buy.

who wants to be paying someone else's mortgage by renting for a good period of time?  i sure as hell don't, and want to get a my own place asap.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on August 25, 2007, 10:40:52 PM
i dunno man.. in all probability i'd never live in ny due to the cost of living...and for the weather i'd stick to chicago.. but renting there makes no sense to me if u're making close to 200k...assuming that there are two incomes close to a 400k household..and if u can't afford to live there.. then you simply shouldn't... problems come into play when folks live beyond their means or attempt to keep up with the Jones'

nyc isn't for the cheapskates

of course, but we can certainly challenge that definition.

if you don't include the downpayment and maintenance I would agree, but I think if we're talking about the heart of Manhattan it ends up costing less to rent than to buy.

who wants to be paying someone else's mortgage by renting for a good period of time?  i sure as hell don't, and want to get a my own place asap.

also realize that that 500k figure is if you want to live in some wealthy part of Manhattan.  i'd rather live in BK myself...bk all day every day!!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 25, 2007, 10:50:19 PM
Personal choices aside, my point is there are certainly couples would would consider themselves living comfortably in Manhattan who make far less than 500k--to that extent the rubric being used doesn't seem like a good proxy. 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on August 25, 2007, 10:56:20 PM
Personal choices aside, my point is there are certainly couples would would consider themselves living comfortably in Manhattan who make far less than 500k--to that extent the rubric being used doesn't seem like a good proxy. 


and that's the reason i already stated

Quote
yea but that's up the whim of whoever wrote the report and their definition of comfort  in the first place. 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 25, 2007, 10:58:20 PM
and thats the reason I stated
we can certainly challenge that definition.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on August 25, 2007, 11:02:48 PM
of course we can that's a given ....that's what we do.. and i've done that as a lifelong NYer but instead of debating about probables why not make it personal and speak on what u would do
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 25, 2007, 11:26:10 PM
given the inflated house prices right now and the fact that I'm likely to be fairly mobile for the next 5ish years, I think it would be unwise for me to buy.  Too easy to get trapped into a certain lifestyle. If I were to live in the city longterm though (which I think is unlikely given my own spending habits), if there is still a fixer-upper brownstone in Brooklyn that in a couple of years might be affordeable it might be worth looking into--otherwise I have no problem with paying rent and investing the rest.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 26, 2007, 09:01:27 AM
given the inflated house prices right now and the fact that I'm likely to be fairly mobile for the next 5ish years, I think it would be unwise for me to buy.  Too easy to get trapped into a certain lifestyle. If I were to live in the city longterm though (which I think is unlikely given my own spending habits), if there is still a fixer-upper brownstone in Brooklyn that in a couple of years might be affordeable it might be worth looking into--otherwise I have no problem with paying rent and investing the rest.

this may be crossing over into the home ownership thread, but if you can do it you should absolutely buy as opposed to renting.  I won't be able to do it myself right away, but as soon as I'm able you best believe I'm not contributing to somebody else's mortgage anymore.  As Jem said, some rental prices = mortgage prices out here. In fact, I think I'd actually be saving money in NYC if I had a mortgage.  For example, the average spot south of 125th street will run you 3-4k/month for a one bedroom.  The same spot on a 30 year mortgage will run you about 2k/month for the same unit.  Landlords are getting over on folks in NYC simply because they can.

My study partner for the bar owned a 2 bedroom spot in Brooklyn which she bought right after 9/11 for $85,000  (I didn't think that was possible but hey, she's living proof).  She sold it while we were studying for the bar this summer (5 years later) for $250,000.  She used the proceeds from the sale to pay off the remaining $85k mortgage, paid the broker their cut, and pocketed the rest, which left her with a ridiculous profit of something like $190,000 bucks - close to 200k chillin in her bank account!!!  When you consider she collected rent on the place the entire time we were in law school from the tenants she had living there which paid for her mortgage on the spot, it turned out to be a pretty good deal for just that one little piece of property. Imagine what you could do with a couple of those.... 8)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: blk_reign on August 26, 2007, 09:06:12 AM
yup.. that's how i'm trying to get people to think sands... btw if i see another 299k property up there... i think u should jump on it
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 26, 2007, 09:09:29 AM
For example, the average spot south of 125th street will run you 3-4k/month for a one bedroom.  The same spot on a 30 year mortgage will run you about 2k/month for the same unit.  Landlords are getting over on folks in NYC simply because they can.

Hmmm.  I would imagine the NYC housing market to be as efficient as they come.  If that's the case, then wouldn't the price of the property reflect the potential income to be gained from renting?  The $2k mortgage wouldn't include taxes, fees, etc.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: blk_reign on August 26, 2007, 09:12:28 AM
seriously doubt that in nyc 2k would include escrow unless some old unsuspecting soul simply wanted to sell their old condo for a small profit.. meaning they bought it for 85-100k and want to sell for the payoff amount with a little extra to bank..

For example, the average spot south of 125th street will run you 3-4k/month for a one bedroom.  The same spot on a 30 year mortgage will run you about 2k/month for the same unit.  Landlords are getting over on folks in NYC simply because they can.

Hmmm.  I would imagine the NYC housing market to be as efficient as they come.  If that's the case, then wouldn't the price of the property reflect the potential income to be gained from renting?  The $2k mortgage wouldn't include taxes, fees, etc.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on August 26, 2007, 02:58:00 PM
given the inflated house prices right now and the fact that I'm likely to be fairly mobile for the next 5ish years, I think it would be unwise for me to buy.  Too easy to get trapped into a certain lifestyle. If I were to live in the city longterm though (which I think is unlikely given my own spending habits), if there is still a fixer-upper brownstone in Brooklyn that in a couple of years might be affordeable it might be worth looking into--otherwise I have no problem with paying rent and investing the rest.

this may be crossing over into the home ownership thread, but if you can do it you should absolutely buy as opposed to renting.  I won't be able to do it myself right away, but as soon as I'm able you best believe I'm not contributing to somebody else's mortgage anymore.  As Jem said, some rental prices = mortgage prices out here. In fact, I think I'd actually be saving money in NYC if I had a mortgage.  For example, the average spot south of 125th street will run you 3-4k/month for a one bedroom.  The same spot on a 30 year mortgage will run you about 2k/month for the same unit.  Landlords are getting over on folks in NYC simply because they can.

My study partner for the bar owned a 2 bedroom spot in Brooklyn which she bought right after 9/11 for $85,000  (I didn't think that was possible but hey, she's living proof).  She sold it while we were studying for the bar this summer (5 years later) for $250,000.  She used the proceeds from the sale to pay off the remaining $85k mortgage, paid the broker their cut, and pocketed the rest, which left her with a ridiculous profit of something like $190,000 bucks - close to 200k chillin in her bank account!!!  When you consider she collected rent on the place the entire time we were in law school from the tenants she had living there which paid for her mortgage on the spot, it turned out to be a pretty good deal for just that one little piece of property. Imagine what you could do with a couple of those.... 8)


that's what my ex-roomate did down in baltimore, same deal he came out of law school paid off all his loans and put like 200K in the bank. of course all that was done back when the housing market was booming...and it only worked if you got out before the crash. i should have done the same thing but i thought the crash was coming sooner than it did so i didn't want to get stuck....miscalculation. i'm already looking at places i might want to buy if i end up staying in NYC which i dont think i will but just in case. i doubt it will be in Manhattan, it's gonna be BK LIC or New Jeruse for me
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 27, 2007, 09:04:45 AM
yup.. that's how i'm trying to get people to think sands... btw if i see another 299k property up there... i think u should jump on it

Kool.  Let me stack some chips and I'm on it.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on August 27, 2007, 12:25:18 PM
you guys think nyc is bad? shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit. my buddy who just moved to london paid 10k just as a first deposit to get into her modest two bedroom apartment. that city is absolutely insane! professionals have roommates till they're like 40 or married because they can't afford to live alone.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 27, 2007, 02:03:17 PM
$10k U.S. as a RENTAL deposit??  Say what??


Then again...I guess that's about right.  Most places want 1st month + one month as a deposit, and most 2 bedrooms in NYC run from 4k-6k, so multiply that by 2 and $10k actually sounds about right.  It's a shame cats get out making mad cheddar and we're still somehow not quite "rolling in it" yet.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on August 27, 2007, 02:06:28 PM
$10k U.S. as a RENTAL deposit??  Say what??


Then again...I guess that's about right.  Most places want 1st month + one month as a deposit, and most 2 bedrooms in NYC run from 4k-6k, so multiply that by 2 and $10k actually sounds about right.  It's a shame cats get out making mad cheddar and we're still somehow not quite "rolling in it" yet.


it's absolutely insane there. i've been looking at apartments, and anything that's barely livable is at least 300GBP/week.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 27, 2007, 02:51:34 PM
just saw your signature - I start on October 15th as well.  Straight CHILLIN until then!  My friends are like "you lazy bastard!"  Yup.  Pretty much.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on August 27, 2007, 02:55:24 PM
just saw your signature - I start on October 15th as well.  Straight CHILLIN until then!  My friends are like "you lazy bastard!"  Yup.  Pretty much.

i actually moved it up to oct. 1. need to get that paycheck so i can put down my own 10k, lol!

it is nice to have some time off, though. i am chillin at home in tampa right now, going out a lot and laying out in the sun. and of course, i am heading to CA this weekend to see the alma maters play each other in the season opener!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 27, 2007, 02:57:43 PM
just saw your signature - I start on October 15th as well.  Straight CHILLIN until then!  My friends are like "you lazy bastard!"  Yup.  Pretty much.

SWeet!  Taking/taken a bar trip?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 27, 2007, 03:22:56 PM
Alci - Yes, sir I have.

London - Very nice.  Sounds like we're doing the same thing.  I was in Cozumel, Mexico earlier, now I'm back in Mizzou lounging around with the fam
and friends, bothering them everyday with happy hour trips and trying my best to get them to stay out all night and call in sick the next day. :D   I love it.

I feel you on moving the start date up though.  It has been fun, but this signing bonus is about to run out.  Quick!  If I had been kickin it in NYC doing the same amount of partying I'm doing now, I would have been broke a long time ago.  One of the few redeeming qualities of the midwest is the ability to get a $2 mixed drink at any given establishment.  2 DOLLARS, yo!!!  Sh!t they don't know how good they got it out here.  Then again, if I had to live out here I'd need a $2 drink also. I digress.

To work or not to work....that is the question.  Life as an associate I guess.  I think I can hold off till Oct. 15th but I dunno.  I might need to hollar at HR cause my current landlord back in Newark is getting impatient with me.

Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 27, 2007, 03:32:00 PM
I say hold off.  Plenty of time to work.  And :o at the $2 drinks.  Dang!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 27, 2007, 03:41:56 PM
Yeah, I had to save my receipt just to show the folks back east that I'm not BS'ing.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on August 27, 2007, 03:43:58 PM
Alci - Yes, sir I have.

London - Very nice.  Sounds like we're doing the same thing.  I was in Cozumel, Mexico earlier, now I'm back in Mizzou lounging around with the fam
and friends, bothering them everyday with happy hour trips and trying my best to get them to stay out all night and call in sick the next day. :D   I love it.

I feel you on moving the start date up though.  It has been fun, but this signing bonus is about to run out.  Quick!  If I had been kickin it in NYC doing the same amount of partying I'm doing now, I would have been broke a long time ago.  One of the few redeeming qualities of the midwest is the ability to get a $2 mixed drink at any given establishment.  2 DOLLARS, yo!!!  Sh!t they don't know how good they got it out here.  Then again, if I had to live out here I'd need a $2 drink also. I digress.

To work or not to work....that is the question.  Life as an associate I guess.  I think I can hold off till Oct. 15th but I dunno.  I might need to hollar at HR cause my current landlord back in Newark is getting impatient with me.



I found a couple joints here where ladies drink free all night, so that's been good. Definitely none of that in London. :-(
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Smokey on August 27, 2007, 04:10:25 PM
Alci - Yes, sir I have.

London - Very nice.  Sounds like we're doing the same thing.  I was in Cozumel, Mexico earlier, now I'm back in Mizzou lounging around with the fam
and friends, bothering them everyday with happy hour trips and trying my best to get them to stay out all night and call in sick the next day. :D   I love it.

I feel you on moving the start date up though.  It has been fun, but this signing bonus is about to run out.  Quick!  If I had been kickin it in NYC doing the same amount of partying I'm doing now, I would have been broke a long time ago.  One of the few redeeming qualities of the midwest is the ability to get a $2 mixed drink at any given establishment.  2 DOLLARS, yo!!!  Sh!t they don't know how good they got it out here.  Then again, if I had to live out here I'd need a $2 drink also. I digress.

To work or not to work....that is the question.  Life as an associate I guess.  I think I can hold off till Oct. 15th but I dunno.  I might need to hollar at HR cause my current landlord back in Newark is getting impatient with me.



Tell me about it.  It seems impossible to get a drink for more than $8 nowadays, $10 most places.  Insane.  But that's what guys are for.   :D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Smokey on August 27, 2007, 04:11:49 PM
I say hold off.  Plenty of time to work.  And :o at the $2 drinks.  Dang!

Alci, have you been to Vivas?  You can't get $2 drinks there, but you can get $4 ones.  And BAR has $1 well drinks on Thursday.  Those are pretty much the cheapest deals around, I think.  Living in New Haven and making NYC money would be nice, huh?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 27, 2007, 04:16:32 PM
Lol not so much the living in new haven part...

What are well drinks?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Smokey on August 27, 2007, 04:18:48 PM
They're drinks made of cheap hard liquors.

Usuaully the cheapest gin, rum, vodka, etc. that the bar serves.  You can get G&Ts, rum and cokes, vodka cranberries, etc. - hard liquor and one mixer but not... a Pink Lady or any other complicated drink.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 27, 2007, 04:20:06 PM
I say hold off.  Plenty of time to work.  And :o at the $2 drinks.  Dang!

Alci, have you been to Vivas?  You can't get $2 drinks there, but you can get $4 ones.  And BAR has $1 well drinks on Thursday.  Those are pretty much the cheapest deals around, I think.  Living in New Haven and making NYC money would be nice, huh?

Umm no.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Smokey on August 27, 2007, 04:22:11 PM
Aww I know how you feel about New Haven.  But I don't think it's so bad for a city of about 100,000 people.  You should visit Kenosha, Wisconsin to put things in perspective.  :)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on August 27, 2007, 04:27:13 PM
I'm sure if I visited Hades I'd love New haven.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Smokey on August 27, 2007, 04:27:55 PM
 :D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 27, 2007, 04:40:14 PM
They're drinks made of cheap hard liquors.

Usuaully the cheapest gin, rum, vodka, etc. that the bar serves.  You can get G&Ts, rum and cokes, vodka cranberries, etc. - hard liquor and one mixer but not... a Pink Lady or any other complicated drink.

Interesting. I might have to check out BAR more often.  The grad student place also has cheap drinks.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Smokey on August 27, 2007, 04:41:31 PM
GPSCY?  That place *sucks*.  The last time I was there, it was a Saturday night, about 15 people were there and someone was doing Karaoke to a Roberta Flack song.  Also don't they something charge cover?  WTF is that?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 27, 2007, 04:51:39 PM
Yeah I think they charge a cover, but I've never paid.  Lol like I said, cheap drinks.  The outside courtyard is OK.  I've only gone like 3 times though...all 1L year.  Man, I feel old.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 27, 2007, 06:43:33 PM
Lol not so much the living in new haven part...

What are well drinks?


....and you call yourself a law student! 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 27, 2007, 06:50:33 PM
Lol I just call them cheap drinks...that necessarily implies the cheapest house liquor.  What, are they pouring cristal in those $2 missouri drinks? ;)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Smokey on August 27, 2007, 06:58:43 PM
Lol not so much the living in new haven part...

What are well drinks?


....and you call yourself a law student! 

Alci's too high-class for well-drinks.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 27, 2007, 07:02:00 PM
To the contrary, I rarely see the point in using expensive liquor for mixed drinks.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on August 27, 2007, 07:44:09 PM
Lol not so much the living in new haven part...

What are well drinks?


....and you call yourself a law student! 

 :D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: OperaAttorney on August 28, 2007, 06:24:30 AM
Lol not so much the living in new haven part...

What are well drinks?


....and you call yourself a law student! 

I'm a future law student, and I ABSTAIN from alcohol. I don't know what well drinks are...LOL  ;D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 28, 2007, 09:48:41 AM
Poor bastard....he never even saw it coming.   :P


But seriously though, my friends who went through law school told me about it, and they were correct - law school will make you drink!  I really wasn't big on drinking before law school, but when you come to orientation and alcohol is sitting right there in the middle of the school and the deans are walking around with glasses full of wine it hits you - you're not in undergrad anymore.

We were all bona fide alcoholics by the time 2L hit.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on August 28, 2007, 09:56:52 AM
Poor bastard....he never even saw it coming.   :P


But seriously though, my friends who went through law school told me about it, and they were correct - law school will make you drink!  I really wasn't big on drinking before law school, but when you come to orientation and alcohol is sitting right there in the middle of the school and the deans are walking around with glasses full of wine it hits you - you're not in undergrad anymore.

We were all bona fide alcoholics by the time 2L hit.

yea ppl have been drinking up a storm here in the last 3-4 weeks...i've had a quarter of a drink...and i don't think that's gonna change too much, i was NEVER big on drinking.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 28, 2007, 10:01:49 AM
When every event you go to has an open bar, you start to think that's the norm.  I remember being taken aback at one event I went to recently with a cash bar.  You mean I have to pay for my drink??
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on August 28, 2007, 10:13:25 AM
When every event you go to has an open bar, you start to think that's the norm.  I remember being taken aback at one event I went to recently with a cash bar.  You mean I have to pay for my drink??

oh i'm not saying anything about that...i just highly doubt that i'll even partake in the open bar even half the time.  i dunno how many there have been so far, but like i said, i've only had a quarter of a drink--and it was only an amaretto sour.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 28, 2007, 10:18:18 AM
Yeah I was going on a different tangent.  But I think you'll find yourself eventually drinking more, even if it doesn't rise to the level of your classmates.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 28, 2007, 11:33:11 AM
When every event you go to has an open bar, you start to think that's the norm.  I remember being taken aback at one event I went to recently with a cash bar.  You mean I have to pay for my drink??

oh i'm not saying anything about that...i just highly doubt that i'll even partake in the open bar even half the time.  i dunno how many there have been so far, but like i said, i've only had a quarter of a drink--and it was only an amaretto sour.


Famous last words.   :D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: cui bono? on August 28, 2007, 11:56:44 AM
Yeah I was going on a different tangent.  But I think you'll find yourself eventually drinking more, even if it doesn't rise to the level of your classmates.

true.  It's not going to be like tomorrow you're drinking heavily but it is a gradual (in some cases not so gradual  :D) transition.  Mostly every event ('cept NBLSA  :D  :P) has an open bar. LOL- Water is more expensive.   
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jd06 on August 28, 2007, 12:14:17 PM
Hey Sands,

Wait 'til you become an Associate in a few months.  If you weren't drinking heavily before, dealing with clients, opposing counsel, staff, court clerks, etc. will certainly help punch your ticket to a future AA membership   ;) 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 28, 2007, 12:37:46 PM
No doubt. When you're placed in an environment where free drinks are a way of life, it is no wonder why our profession is the way it is.  And don't even let the summer come along - all those free food free drink events hosted by the firms?  Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiit.

Actually, all BS aside, I have talked with a couple of different employers who say that when they have these social events they literally watch to see how students interact, and any students who don't participate in the happy hour settings are looked at negatively.  I think that's kinda BS but I guess they need to know see who fits the firm culture, especially in the client "wine & dine" setting.

A buddy of mine from Columbia pulled his firm gig without any formal interview whatsoever all because he happened to be out drinking at a nearby bar where some of the partners & associates from his firm where hanging out at after a BLSA jobfair.  I met one of those partners some months later at our Northeast BLSA regional when it was in Albany and she said that out of all the people they had interviewed that day back when we had the job fair, my buddy stood out the most to her and her associates because he was able to just make regular conversation with them over a drink.  She said when he left to go to the bathroom they talked it over and when he came back they made him an offer right there on the spot at the bar.  LOL  Interestingly enough, he turned out to be the only person that they gave an offer to from the entire BLSA jobfair, and he wasn't even on their interview list.



Hey Sands,

Wait 'til you become an Associate in a few months.  If you weren't drinking heavily before, dealing with clients, opposing counsel, staff, court clerks, etc. will certainly help punch your ticket to a future AA membership   ;) 


Awesome.  Can't wait!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: cui bono? on August 28, 2007, 12:46:19 PM
she said that out of all the people they had interviewed that day back when we had the job fair, my buddy stood out the most to her and her associates because he was able to just make regular conversation with them over a drink.  She said when he left to go to the bathroom they talked it over and when he came back they made him an offer right there on the spot at the bar.  

Heard about something similar happeneing.  I also went to a etiquette workshop and they recommended that if you don't drink, get something that resembles a drink.  Firms want someone that can bring in more clients.  A stick in the mud w/ a good GPA may not do the trick.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on August 28, 2007, 12:51:16 PM
When every event you go to has an open bar, you start to think that's the norm.  I remember being taken aback at one event I went to recently with a cash bar.  You mean I have to pay for my drink??

oh i'm not saying anything about that...i just highly doubt that i'll even partake in the open bar even half the time.  i dunno how many there have been so far, but like i said, i've only had a quarter of a drink--and it was only an amaretto sour.


Famous last words.   :D


eh, my ug is famous for drinking and gettin high (true stereotype or not)...i didn't partake then (and i could always get things for free) so i doubt i will partake now.  i know myself.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jd06 on August 28, 2007, 12:53:27 PM
Not surprised about your buddy, Sands.  The law is a people business, no doubt.  You can teach someone substantive law and procedure, but you just can't teach 'em people skills, i.e. the ability to handle clients and opposing counsel, oftentimes under extreme stress.  Your buddy obviously has it.  Many lawyers don't.  
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 28, 2007, 12:54:05 PM
When every event you go to has an open bar, you start to think that's the norm.  I remember being taken aback at one event I went to recently with a cash bar.  You mean I have to pay for my drink??

oh i'm not saying anything about that...i just highly doubt that i'll even partake in the open bar even half the time.  i dunno how many there have been so far, but like i said, i've only had a quarter of a drink--and it was only an amaretto sour.


Famous last words.   :D


eh, my ug is famous for drinking and gettin high (true stereotype or not)...i didn't partake then (and i could always get things for free) so i doubt i will partake now.  i know myself.




I didn't drink at all and I went to a HUGE state party school for undergrad.  Something about law school though.  

Not that you have to at all. I think that's great that at least one person doesn't.  Keep it going.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 28, 2007, 01:01:43 PM
Not surprised about your buddy, Sands.  The law is a people business, no doubt.  You can teach someone substantive law and procedure, but you just can't teach 'em people skills, i.e. the ability to handle clients and opposing counsel, oftentimes under extreme stress.  Your buddy obviously has it.  Many lawyers don't.  


Yeah not only is he a social person, but he's just a likeable kind of guy anyway even outside of the social setting.  I found that through the many of the interviews that I went on, the ones that actually resulted in call-backs and offers where the ones where I didn't even talk about the law at all, but rather, just had a conversation with the person I was interviewing with.  You know the kind where, before either one of you knew it, 30 minutes had passed and it was time for you to move on to the next interviewer. 



Heard about something similar happeneing.  I also went to a etiquette workshop and they recommended that if you don't drink, get something that resembles a drink.  Firms want someone that can bring in more clients.  A stick in the mud w/ a good GPA may not do the trick.


Exactly.  Had a kid at my school, bright cat, graduated cum laude but had the WORST people skills ever.  He had a hard time interviewing for jobs, and when he finally got his 2L summer gig at some big firm in Jersey, they did NOT ask him to come back because of his people skills (or lack thereof), despite his good work product.


Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Smokey on August 28, 2007, 01:06:46 PM
Poor bastard....he never even saw it coming.   :P


But seriously though, my friends who went through law school told me about it, and they were correct - law school will make you drink!  I really wasn't big on drinking before law school, but when you come to orientation and alcohol is sitting right there in the middle of the school and the deans are walking around with glasses full of wine it hits you - you're not in undergrad anymore.

We were all bona fide alcoholics by the time 2L hit.


I never realized so many people made it through undergrad without drinking/becoming horrible alcoholics.

I think I was the opposite - drank way too much between 18-20, once I turned 21 the allure sort of wore off, now I stop at a drink or 2 usually.  I just don't see the allure of getting shitfaced now that I'm entering my mid-20s.  I don't think it will change if I ever go to law school.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Smokey on August 28, 2007, 01:12:05 PM
When every event you go to has an open bar, you start to think that's the norm.  I remember being taken aback at one event I went to recently with a cash bar.  You mean I have to pay for my drink??

oh i'm not saying anything about that...i just highly doubt that i'll even partake in the open bar even half the time.  i dunno how many there have been so far, but like i said, i've only had a quarter of a drink--and it was only an amaretto sour.


Famous last words.   :D


eh, my ug is famous for drinking and gettin high (true stereotype or not)...i didn't partake then (and i could always get things for free) so i doubt i will partake now.  i know myself.




I didn't drink at all and I went to a HUGE state party school for undergrad.  Something about law school though. 

Not that you have to at all. I think that's great that at least one person doesn't.  Keep it going.

How did you resist the pressure?  What did you do on weekends and stuff?  Seems like there aren't many UG activities that don't revolve around getting as drunk as possible and acting like an idiot.  At least in my experience.  This is unfortunate because I think a lot of people emerge from college with severe substance abuse issues.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on August 28, 2007, 01:21:28 PM
When every event you go to has an open bar, you start to think that's the norm.  I remember being taken aback at one event I went to recently with a cash bar.  You mean I have to pay for my drink??

oh i'm not saying anything about that...i just highly doubt that i'll even partake in the open bar even half the time.  i dunno how many there have been so far, but like i said, i've only had a quarter of a drink--and it was only an amaretto sour.


Famous last words.   :D


eh, my ug is famous for drinking and gettin high (true stereotype or not)...i didn't partake then (and i could always get things for free) so i doubt i will partake now.  i know myself.




I didn't drink at all and I went to a HUGE state party school for undergrad.  Something about law school though. 

Not that you have to at all. I think that's great that at least one person doesn't.  Keep it going.

How did you resist the pressure?  What did you do on weekends and stuff?  Seems like there aren't many UG activities that don't revolve around getting as drunk as possible and acting like an idiot.  At least in my experience.  This is unfortunate because I think a lot of people emerge from college with severe substance abuse issues.

pressure? i was never one to do things bc of peer pressure.  be your own person...or surround yourself with ppl that don't pressure you.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Smokey on August 28, 2007, 01:55:16 PM
I guess "pressure" wasn't exactly the right word.  Moreso I was asking him how he avoided drinking when a lot of the school's culture and social life revolved around it.  I've never had the large state party school experience but from what friends of mine who have attended schools like that have told me, a lot of times there's very little to do besides go to frat parties and get drunk.  Especially if your school is far from a major city or town (and I think Sands' was.)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 28, 2007, 02:01:09 PM
When every event you go to has an open bar, you start to think that's the norm.  I remember being taken aback at one event I went to recently with a cash bar.  You mean I have to pay for my drink??

oh i'm not saying anything about that...i just highly doubt that i'll even partake in the open bar even half the time.  i dunno how many there have been so far, but like i said, i've only had a quarter of a drink--and it was only an amaretto sour.


Famous last words.   :D


eh, my ug is famous for drinking and gettin high (true stereotype or not)...i didn't partake then (and i could always get things for free) so i doubt i will partake now.  i know myself.




I didn't drink at all and I went to a HUGE state party school for undergrad.  Something about law school though. 

Not that you have to at all. I think that's great that at least one person doesn't.  Keep it going.

How did you resist the pressure?  What did you do on weekends and stuff?  Seems like there aren't many UG activities that don't revolve around getting as drunk as possible and acting like an idiot.  At least in my experience.  This is unfortunate because I think a lot of people emerge from college with severe substance abuse issues.


Probably because I never really cared about peer pressure (when we were growing up, it was Dad & The Belt pressure we were worried about).  My friends in undergrad knew I didn't drink, I knew they did drink, and we just co-existed together like that.  Plus, the majority of the parties we went to in undergrad were black frat parties where people were too busy dancing (or trying to dance) with the opposite sex to be drinking.

Even in law school, it's not really a peer pressure issue more than it is a stress relief issue.  
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 28, 2007, 02:10:28 PM
How did you resist the pressure?  What did you do on weekends and stuff?  Seems like there aren't many UG activities that don't revolve around getting as drunk as possible and acting like an idiot.  At least in my experience.  This is unfortunate because I think a lot of people emerge from college with severe substance abuse issues.

That's b/c you go to school in New Haven.  There were tons of non-drinking things to do at my ugrad.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on August 28, 2007, 02:11:23 PM
How did you resist the pressure?  What did you do on weekends and stuff?  Seems like there aren't many UG activities that don't revolve around getting as drunk as possible and acting like an idiot.  At least in my experience.  This is unfortunate because I think a lot of people emerge from college with severe substance abuse issues.

That's b/c you go to school in New Haven.  There were tons of non-drinking things to do at my ugrad.

ha...imagine if she'd have gone to Dartmouth!

Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: cui bono? on August 28, 2007, 02:12:39 PM
man, pls.   UG = Miami.  Big on the club atmosphere.  Not that hard to resist, gets old after a while
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 28, 2007, 02:18:06 PM
I guess "pressure" wasn't exactly the right word.  Moreso I was asking him how he avoided drinking when a lot of the school's culture and social life revolved around it.  I've never had the large state party school experience but from what friends of mine who have attended schools like that have told me, a lot of times there's very little to do besides go to frat parties and get drunk.  Especially if your school is far from a major city or town (and I think Sands' was.)


Oh yeah you just reminded me, we did A LOT of road trippin as well.   We would drive 4 hours on the highway just to go to a 2 hour party.  LOL

But my undergrad (KU) was in a town called Lawrnece, Kansas, which is about...25 to 30 minutes west of Kansas City, which is somewhat of a major city (approx. 2 million pop.) so that always gave us access to clubs and night life and what have you, even though we mostly kicked it on campus back at KU because most of the clubs in KC are over 21.

New Haven is not too far from NYC.   Did you guys roll down to the city on the weekends ever?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 28, 2007, 03:08:51 PM
How did you resist the pressure?  What did you do on weekends and stuff?  Seems like there aren't many UG activities that don't revolve around getting as drunk as possible and acting like an idiot.  At least in my experience.  This is unfortunate because I think a lot of people emerge from college with severe substance abuse issues.

That's b/c you go to school in New Haven.  There were tons of non-drinking things to do at my ugrad.

ha...imagine if she'd have gone to Dartmouth!

Lol then she wouldn't be able to imagine anyone not drinking and skiing/hiking/whatever the hell they do in Hanover, NH.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: smujd2007 on August 28, 2007, 06:29:28 PM

The first time I even had a glass of wine was the night that I got engaged, I was 23.

I didn't party at all in college.  By the time law school rolled around, I was too busy to be interested in having free time.  Then my free time became pretty much obsolete. So my experience was probably not like most.

I guess I just knew too many people who have become victims and abused alcohol to where I never really had a taste for it.  And even now, there's only 2 alcoholic beverages that I can even tolerate (and only have one maybe 2-3 times a year.)

When every event you go to has an open bar, you start to think that's the norm.  I remember being taken aback at one event I went to recently with a cash bar.  You mean I have to pay for my drink??

oh i'm not saying anything about that...i just highly doubt that i'll even partake in the open bar even half the time.  i dunno how many there have been so far, but like i said, i've only had a quarter of a drink--and it was only an amaretto sour.


Famous last words.   :D


eh, my ug is famous for drinking and gettin high (true stereotype or not)...i didn't partake then (and i could always get things for free) so i doubt i will partake now.  i know myself.




I didn't drink at all and I went to a HUGE state party school for undergrad.  Something about law school though. 

Not that you have to at all. I think that's great that at least one person doesn't.  Keep it going.

How did you resist the pressure?  What did you do on weekends and stuff?  Seems like there aren't many UG activities that don't revolve around getting as drunk as possible and acting like an idiot.  At least in my experience.  This is unfortunate because I think a lot of people emerge from college with severe substance abuse issues.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: blk_reign on August 28, 2007, 06:36:17 PM
smu I hear you.. i had my first glass of wine a few months ago @ a vineyard.. as far as drinking is concerned it isn't something that i subscribe to.. so i seriously doubt that Jem's drinking habits will change.. besides we have the same drink of choice... and even that is ordered on a limited basis  ;)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on August 28, 2007, 06:39:53 PM
smu I hear you.. i had my first glass of wine a few months ago @ a vineyard.. as far as drinking is concerned it isn't something that i subscribe to.. so i seriously doubt that Jem's drinking habits will change.. besides we have the same drink of choice... and even that is ordered on a limited basis  ;)

 :D ;)

Though I will say that I've been thinking of joining our school's wine tasting club De Vinimus only bc I feel like I should know something about wine, especially in the confines of business dinners and whatnot for the future.  Dunno tho...
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 28, 2007, 06:57:51 PM
Wine is great.  You should definitely partake in that.  I, on the other hand, am about to delve into single-malt scotch whiskeys.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: OperaAttorney on August 28, 2007, 07:31:37 PM
Poor bastard....he never even saw it coming.   :P


But seriously though, my friends who went through law school told me about it, and they were correct - law school will make you drink!  I really wasn't big on drinking before law school, but when you come to orientation and alcohol is sitting right there in the middle of the school and the deans are walking around with glasses full of wine it hits you - you're not in undergrad anymore.

We were all bona fide alcoholics by the time 2L hit.

Law school may make some folks drink, but I can promise that won't happen to me!  I don't mean to preach or nuffin LOL, but I'm a Christian and firmly believe in abstaining from alcohol b/c my body is the temple of God :).  I'm also uncomfortable with the fact that alcohol and other strong substances alter one's mind. I need to be in control in order to make sound decisions.  In addition, I'm a health nut and a gym whore, so drinking doesn't really lend itself easily to my lifestyle.  When the situation, however, calls for "alcoholic solidarity," I order virgin drinks and fit right in.  ;D

With that said, I do not judge anyone at all :). I don't think I'm better than anyone.  If drinking makes you happy, then I'm happy. In fact, I occasionally go to bars with my friends to chill out and shoot pool; I'm always the designated driver.  It's all good.

Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on August 28, 2007, 07:36:37 PM
I drank waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay less in law school than in college. But I guess if you consider where I went to college, that's probably unsurprising.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: naturallybeyoutiful on August 28, 2007, 08:01:56 PM
I guess I just knew too many people who have become victims and abused alcohol to where I never really had a taste for it. 

I hear that! 


smu I hear you.. i had my first glass of wine a few months ago @ a vineyard.. as far as drinking is concerned it isn't something that i subscribe to.. so i seriously doubt that Jem's drinking habits will change.. besides we have the same drink of choice... and even that is ordered on a limited basis  ;)

And that, too!

Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on August 29, 2007, 07:39:13 PM
i ain't gonna lie a brother gets his drink on but i cant blame law school or pressure, i learned it in the marine corps ...but i don't get pissy drunk like some of these clowns, frothing and foaming at the mouth and what not. i can hold my liquor...till i get outside to the curb :)...please nobody get all desperate housewives on me about alcholism i'm just kidding about the curb stuff anyway i don't dring till i throw up liquor in NY costs too much. plus alcoholics go to meetings. i'm a drunk
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Gengiswump on August 29, 2007, 08:18:23 PM
I don't blame anything in particular; I just drink a lot.  Ask Jem. :D
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on August 29, 2007, 08:25:08 PM
I don't blame anything in particular; I just drink a lot.  Ask Jem. :D

 :D :D

but good thing is that ur not a sloppy drunk...otherwise, i couldn't mess with ya ;)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Gengiswump on August 29, 2007, 08:31:09 PM
I don't blame anything in particular; I just drink a lot.  Ask Jem. :D

 :D :D

but good thing is that ur not a sloppy drunk...otherwise, i couldn't mess with ya ;)

Lately I'm just not a drunk period - it's annoying as hell.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: cui bono? on August 30, 2007, 09:27:40 AM
I've never gotten drunk.  For whatever reason I just stop. 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 30, 2007, 12:25:26 PM
As a break from the alcoholic discussion, I found these associate quotes pretty interesting to compare and contrast.  I looked up the Vault 100 firms (basically the US News ranking entity for Biglaw) and looked at what it's like to work for the #1 firm (Wachtell in NY), the #50 firm in the middle, and the #100 firm at the "bottom" (for lack of a better term).  What I find most interesting is that, with very few exceptions, all 100 of the firms in the Vault 100 start their associates at the exact same pay in their respective market locations, yet depending on where you fall on the rankings list, you will either work CRAZY HOURS for that market rate salary or work considerably less hours for the exact same market rate salary. 

If the #1 driving factor to go into Biglaw for pre-laws and law students alike is to make money, then it begs the question:  why work crazy hours when you can work non-crazy hours for the exact same pay?  Is it the prestige factor of being able to say you work at the #1 firm in the nation, or is it a simple matter of economics since the higher ranked firms tend to pay out bigger bonuses?  Food for thought for those looking to be a Biglaw associate:




Vault #1 out of 100 - Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz (aka "Wachtell") - New York, NY

[New York Associate Salary = $165,000/yr]
[Average Hours Worked = 69.1/wk]
[Average Hours Billed = 59.6/wk]

"Culture? Who has time for culture?" sighs one insider. "Asking to describe our firm's culture socially or politically is a little silly," grumbles a seasoned source. "Our culture is about one thing: work." Well, no surprises there--Wachtell's round-the-clock productivity is legendary...Colleagues testify that "we pretty much work 24/7/365" and "our hours are brutal. This is a firm where working past 1 a.m. is the norm, where all-nighters are frequent, and where the reaction to your closing a deal after a week of all-nighters is 'Good, now you have time to work all weekend on another deal.'" For one first-year, "A typical Wachtell workday begins at 10 a.m. and ends at around 10 p.m. Typically, you get one full day off per week, as there is always something to do before the next week starts. However, the good thing about the firm is that if you're up for a closing, which normally requires two to three days of not sleeping, or sleeping in the firm somewhere, you typically get the next day off to recover." A midlevel estimates that "rough spots can last for two to three weeks."




Vault #50 out of 100 - Fulbright & Jaworski LLP - Houston, TX

[Houston Associate Salary = $135,000/yr]
[New York Associate Salary = $160,000/yr]
[Average Hours Worked = 54.3/wk]
[Average Hours Billed = 44.5/wk]

"Compared to people at other firms, I believe my hours are very reasonable," shares an attorney in Fulbright's Washington office. "It's not a sweatshop at all," seconds an L.A. insider. "As long as your work gets done, and you're appropriately available, nobody hassles you about being in the office." A Dallas attorney can boast, "I am home for dinner nearly every night, I rarely work weekends, and if I do it's usually by choice and not for longer than a few hours." And in Houston, "The firm is also pretty flexible on face time. Some attorneys with young children are at the office from 9 to 6, and then work from home after the kids go to sleep if necessary." Considering their hours, several Fulbright attorneys feel they can't complain about compensation. An L.A. attorney sums up: "I think we are a little below market, but no big deal. I'd rather work somewhere where I'm treated well than someplace that makes me suffer for the extra money." Among the complainers, a New Yorker notes that "the bonuses are way off market ... Not worth the time needed to earn it."



Vault #100 out of 100
- Seyfarth Shaw LLP - Chicago, IL

[Chicago Associate Salary = $145,000/yr]
[New York Associate Salary = $160,000/yr]
[Average Hours Worked = 56.3/wk]
[Average Hours Billed = 44.2/wk]


Chicago associates generally report that Seyfarth is a place with a "family atmosphere" where "partners [are] very approachable, associates friendly and willing to help." Associates "enjoy the people and the sophisticated work. The firm shows its attorneys that they appreciate the hard work they are doing." Sources also praise the team-oriented atmosphere. "The culture of the firm is truly that of a team," says a second-year. A Chicagoan says that Seyfarth's culture is "one of the firm's biggest strengths" and reports that the firm has a "great group of associates and generally nice partners."
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Gengiswump on August 30, 2007, 01:55:24 PM
Wait a sec - those firms are all in different cities.  Isn't comparing the hours standard between them a bit disingenuous?  Especially if we're going to ignore the legend that is the Wachtell Bonus?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 30, 2007, 02:06:24 PM
Wait a sec - those firms are all in different cities.  Isn't comparing the hours standard between them a bit disingenuous?  Especially if we're going to ignore the legend that is the Wachtell Bonus?

That's why I listed their New York office salaries, which as you can see, are all the same except for the extra $5k for Wachtell.

EDIT:  Originally, I was just comparing Vault ranking to Vault ranking without regard to city, but I see what you mean on the hours to hours, so with respect to just hours to hours comparisons here are 2 other NY firms on the Vault 100:



Vault #54 out of 100: LeBoeuf, Lamb, Greene & MacRae LLP - New York, NY

[NY Office Salary = $160,000/yr]
[NY Average Hours Worked = 56.5/wk]
[NY Average Hours Billed = 45.8/wk]

If there is a common compensation-related complaint among LeBoeuf associates, it is that "we still have a 2,000 billable requirement for bonus, which this year was strictly enforced and left many associates very unhappy." As for the hours, "When projects demand the time, the hours can be strenuous, but overall the hours are manageable," says one attorney. In particular, "Many litigators go home to their families at a reasonable hour," notes one such litigator. Another attorney says: "If you are working with reasonable and considerate people as you are at LeBoeuf, it is much easier to put in long days. I have never been expected to stay late just to get in 'face time.'"


Vault #73 out of 100: Chadbourne & Parke LLP - New York, NY

[NY Office Salary = $160,000/yr]
[NY Average Hours Worked = 53.5/wk]
[NY Average Hours Billed = 46.1/wk]

One thing Chadbourne definitely seems to get right is compensation, particularly the pay-per-hour-worked ratio. A midlevel New Yorker boasts, "I would bet this is one of the best firms in the world in terms of how much you make per hour." A first-year adds, "Chadbourne matched the latest salary increases and bonuses are market. They give prorated bonuses to first-year associates." As for the required hours, one corporate associate reports, "1,900 billable, 2,100 overall. This is not a hard rule though. The firm is good at acknowledging that you have a personal life and that stuff can happen during the course of the year that prevents you from hitting the targets.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 30, 2007, 06:14:49 PM
Prestige (always a lawyer's foremost concern) and better work.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on August 30, 2007, 07:39:32 PM
Prestige (always a lawyer's foremost concern) and better work.

true...but i'm not about waiting til 40+ to pop out my frist kid...prestige is gonna have to take a back seat for me at some point
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: blk_reign on August 30, 2007, 08:49:17 PM
 :D welcome to the light side

Prestige (always a lawyer's foremost concern) and better work.

true...but i'm not about waiting til 40+ to pop out my frist kid...prestige is gonna have to take a back seat for me at some point
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 31, 2007, 08:53:08 AM
Come back to the Dark Side.  Money Money Money.  Prestige Prestige Prestige.  Join us!  Mu hu ha ha ha ha ha ha!




:D welcome to the light side

Prestige (always a lawyer's foremost concern) and better work.

true...but i'm not about waiting til 40+ to pop out my frist kid...prestige is gonna have to take a back seat for me at some point
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 31, 2007, 09:09:40 AM
Prestige (always a lawyer's foremost concern) and better work.


So which is most important to all the LSD'ers and XOXO'ers out there: $ or Prestige?

To put it in an extreme hypo, if you had a choice between the most prestigious firm job paying you $80,000/yr and the absolute least prestigious firm job that pays $160,000/yr, which do you pick?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on August 31, 2007, 10:12:32 AM
Prestige (always a lawyer's foremost concern) and better work.


So which is most important to all the LSD'ers and XOXO'ers out there: $ or Prestige?

To put it in an extreme hypo, if you had a choice between the most prestigious firm job paying you $80,000/yr and the absolute least prestigious firm job that pays $160,000/yr, which do you pick?

in that scenario, i'd prolly go least so that i can pay my debt quicker. i'm ok for prestige right now bc of my ug and ls...i can forsake some of it later
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 31, 2007, 10:44:10 AM
Prestige (always a lawyer's foremost concern) and better work.


So which is most important to all the LSD'ers and XOXO'ers out there: $ or Prestige?

To put it in an extreme hypo, if you had a choice between the most prestigious firm job paying you $80,000/yr and the absolute least prestigious firm job that pays $160,000/yr, which do you pick?

i.e., SCOTUS justice or BIGLAW partner?  SCOTUS justice, but only because I would have spent many years accumulating money.  Right now, I'd probably take the most prestigious job for a couple of years, then lateral to a high-paying job.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jd06 on August 31, 2007, 10:54:09 AM
Prestige (always a lawyer's foremost concern) and better work.


So which is most important to all the LSD'ers and XOXO'ers out there: $ or Prestige?

To put it in an extreme hypo, if you had a choice between the most prestigious firm job paying you $80,000/yr and the absolute least prestigious firm job that pays $160,000/yr, which do you pick?

Easy.  Money.  Who gives a crap what other people think?   ;)







Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 31, 2007, 12:39:32 PM
interesting.  I gotta roll with the bread myself. 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on August 31, 2007, 03:08:25 PM
The Paycheck Report

David Brown
The American Lawyer
09-01-2007


Three years as a big-firm lawyer, and it's a pretty sure bet that the annual paycheck is going to be at least $200,000. Not bad, even if Sallie Mae is still claiming a big chunk of it.

Using information provided by third-, fourth-, and fifth-years, we've compiled the salaries and bonuses of Am Law 200 associates from around the country. Overall, midlevel associates reported median salaries of $170,000 in their third year, with bonuses at $30,000. By years four and five, total compensation hit $222,000 and $245,000, respectively.

Not surprisingly, associates in New York are making more than anyone else. At the top of the heap: the lucky few at Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz. The corporate powerhouse pays its third-years an above-market base rate of $190,000, but the real boost comes at bonus time. Wachtell third-years were paid a median bonus of $165,000 last year-or more than midlevels in some markets make in base pay and bonus combined.

Among the other standouts: Kirkland & Ellis, which appears to be paying top-notch bonuses in several markets (fifth-years in New York are among the few midlevels who crack the $300,000 barrier in total compensation); and Chadbourne & Parke, which gives its third-years a $50,000 bonus in D.C. and New York-roughly $10,000 above the going rate.

We collected salary and bonus information as part of our annual associate satisfaction survey and calculated median salaries and bonuses for third-, fourth, and fifth-year associates in several major markets. In the pages that follow, we break down, where possible, median salaries and bonuses for Am Law 200 offices in those markets. For the firm-by-firm reports, we've printed only calculations based on responses from at least five associates in each office.

The numbers show that firms are investing terrific sums in their associates. But how much pain is it really causing partners to pay associates so well? What is the proportion of associate salary to per-partner profits? As we show in "The Pain Index," associate pay is an expensive item, but it's not hurting partners quite so much at firms like Cravath, Swaine & Moore. There, the average profits per partner figure ($3.015 million) is 13.4 times the total compensation ($225,000) of a third-year associate in New York. A few blocks away, however, in the New York office of Fitzpatrick, Cella, Harper & Scinto, partners average just 3.55 times more than their third-years. Profits per partner there are $745,000, and the median third-year associate compensation is $210,000. Ouch.

Not that a firm in New York has much of a choice. The $200,000-plus payday is now de rigueur in the Big Apple, as our firm-by-firm breakdown shows. New York associates at Am Law 200 firms are virtually guaranteed a $185,000 base salary and a $40,000 bonus in their third year. (Fitzpatrick, Cella, in fact, is actually a little under the market, with a $185,000 base and a $25,000 bonus.)

Of course, in New York, a city where a 400-square-foot studio can sell for a half-million bucks, it's hard to argue that associates are actually getting a better deal than their counterparts in other parts of the country. Using a simple cost-of-living calculation, the median pay for a third-year in Manhattan, $210,000, goes about as far as $99,000 does in Atlanta. The actual median pay for an Atlanta third-year is $153,500. Advantage: Atlanta-at least so far as purchasing power goes.

No matter where associates live, their money isn't necessary being used for bespoke suits and Birkin bags. As we reported in August, associates, even in their midlevel years, grapple with large student loans. Eighty-one percent of midlevels are still paying for school, and 60 percent of them owe $50,000 or more.

It's hard not to justify a serious paycheck for a job that requires so much up-front investment. And firms are under pressure to keep up with each other. Within individual markets, firms are generally in lockstep on base salaries. Bonuses, too, change little from firm to firm, our data shows.

However, firms are rarely paying a standard rate across all of their offices. One exception: Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom. Associates in New York, Washington, D.C., Los Angeles, Chicago, and San Francisco all reported the same income in their third and fourth years and only slight differences in the fifth. Far more typical is DLA Piper, where salaries and bonuses for third-years ranged from $162,000 in Philadelphia to $199,000 in Washington to $209,250 in San Francisco.

Uneven, perhaps, but strong paydays nonetheless. In fact, most Am Law 200 midlevels are in the top 5 percent of the nation in terms of household income, according to U.S. Census figures. Associates at Wachtell, with their $350,000-plus paydays, have climbed into the top 1.5 percent. That's not yet hedge fund manager territory, but it's more than enough to cover the loans and the Manhattan rent, with a few bucks left over for a bank-busting trip to the deli counter at Balducci's.

http://www.law.com/jsp/tal/PubArticleTAL.jsp?hubtype=Cover+Story&id=1188378146231

The chart is here: http://www.law.com/jsp/tal/PubArticleTAL.jsp?hubtype=Cover+Story&id=1188378153076
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: pikey on September 01, 2007, 11:47:40 AM
The Paycheck Report

Of course, in New York, a city where a 400-square-foot studio can sell for a half-million bucks, it's hard to argue that associates are actually getting a better deal than their counterparts in other parts of the country. Using a simple cost-of-living calculation, the median pay for a third-year in Manhattan, $210,000, goes about as far as $99,000 does in Atlanta. The actual median pay for an Atlanta third-year is $153,500. Advantage: Atlanta-at least so far as purchasing power goes.



Atlanta, DC and North Carolina are my top choices for places to eventually settle down.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: naturallybeyoutiful on September 03, 2007, 06:36:10 AM
The Paycheck Report

Of course, in New York, a city where a 400-square-foot studio can sell for a half-million bucks, it's hard to argue that associates are actually getting a better deal than their counterparts in other parts of the country. Using a simple cost-of-living calculation, the median pay for a third-year in Manhattan, $210,000, goes about as far as $99,000 does in Atlanta. The actual median pay for an Atlanta third-year is $153,500. Advantage: Atlanta-at least so far as purchasing power goes.



Atlanta, DC and North Carolina are my top choices for places to eventually settle down.

We have the exact same list!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on September 03, 2007, 01:32:37 PM



Not surprisingly, associates in New York are making more than anyone else. At the top of the heap: the lucky few at Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz. The corporate powerhouse pays its third-years an above-market base rate of $190,000, but the real boost comes at bonus time. Wachtell third-years were paid a median bonus of $165,000 last year-or more than midlevels in some markets make in base pay and bonus combined.

No matter how many times I see it, it still makes me say "damn!"



The numbers show that firms are investing terrific sums in their associates. But how much pain is it really causing partners to pay associates so well? What is the proportion of associate salary to per-partner profits? As we show in "The Pain Index," associate pay is an expensive item, but it's not hurting partners quite so much at firms like Cravath, Swaine & Moore. There, the average profits per partner figure ($3.015 million) is 13.4 times the total compensation ($225,000) of a third-year associate in New York. A few blocks away, however, in the New York office of Fitzpatrick, Cella, Harper & Scinto, partners average just 3.55 times more than their third-years. Profits per partner there are $745,000, and the median third-year associate compensation is $210,000. Ouch.

That's basically earning a quarter of a million dollars every single month.

Again....I say Damn!







Of course, in New York, a city where a 400-square-foot studio can sell for a half-million bucks, it's hard to argue that associates are actually getting a better deal than their counterparts in other parts of the country. Using a simple cost-of-living calculation, the median pay for a third-year in Manhattan, $210,000, goes about as far as $99,000 does in Atlanta. The actual median pay for an Atlanta third-year is $153,500. Advantage: Atlanta-at least so far as purchasing power goes.




What we've been saying for a minute now.  In no other city can a 6-figure salary be reduced to mediocrity as quickly as NYC. 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Gengiswump on September 03, 2007, 01:38:24 PM
But, not a Wachtell 6-figure salary. ;)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on September 03, 2007, 01:40:54 PM
But, not a Wachtell 6-figure salary. ;)

like they get to enjoy it.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Gengiswump on September 03, 2007, 01:44:09 PM
But, not a Wachtell 6-figure salary. ;)

like they get to enjoy it.

Alls I'm saying is, it's not a mediocre salary.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: One Step Ahead on September 03, 2007, 01:52:17 PM
But, not a Wachtell 6-figure salary. ;)

like they get to enjoy it.

Alls I'm saying is, it's not a mediocre salary.

I don't even think the standard 160k + bonus is mediocre--families of 4 are living quite comfortably on ~60k.  sure the cost of living is a female dog, but nobody is tying you to the city. 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on September 03, 2007, 02:41:32 PM
It's the drankin' of the (wachtell) wiiiine, wiiiiine, wiiiine... ;)
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on September 04, 2007, 08:34:28 AM
But, not a Wachtell 6-figure salary. ;)

like they get to enjoy it.

Very good point.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on September 04, 2007, 08:57:57 AM
But, not a Wachtell 6-figure salary. ;)

LOL.  Maybe so, but even still, it is notable to observe that there are some not-too-impressive apartments in NY that literally cost more than a Wachtell 6-figure salary.  So even the mighty Wachtell is not exempt here.


Which goes back to a topic we were talking about earlier maybe some months back about living below your means - even for biglaw associates.  Pre-laws (especially those who have never lived in a major city before) look at $160k/yr as the lottery - you get hired by biglaw and POOF you automatically drive to work everyday in a Bentley that you select from the many foreign cars sitting in the west-wing of your 5 acre estate. :D

Don't get me wrong as far as salaries go, as the article points out, it is up there.  When I was growing up, my mom raised us on a $12k/yr secretary salary - so a biglaw salary is, relatively speaking, light years beyond the standard of living that my brothers and sisters and I were used to.  Even by midwest standards.  But by that same token of relativity, I also have enough real life work experience dealing with uncle sam to know that I will not be able to live like I have just hit the lottery either.  Until you get to the point where you can sit back and let your money work for you, you have to spend wisely and carefully.  Even with a Wachtell biglaw salary in NY.



Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: smujd2007 on September 04, 2007, 10:18:55 AM
This is the correct response.  Even in a place like Dallas/Fort Worth, where the cost of living is relatively low, even friends with biglaw jobs haven't gone to buy those new luxury cars yet.  Law school teaches you--if you haven't been in the "real world" yet, that there are accidentals, and incidentals, and life after law school does include paying off student loans. . . so you also wrestle with whether you want to pay off in 10 years or less or stretch out over 25-30 years. . . in other words, paying off student loans into retirement . . .hard choices that you don't necessarily get warned about before you take on a legal career.  :-\


EDIT: For typos
But, not a Wachtell 6-figure salary. ;)

LOL.  Maybe so, but even still, it is notable to observe that there are some not-too-impressive apartments in NY that literally cost more than a Wachtell 6-figure salary.  So even the mighty Wachtell is not exempt here.


Which goes back to a topic we were talking about earlier maybe some months back about living below your means - even for biglaw associates.  Pre-laws (especially those who have never lived in a major city before) look at $160k/yr as the lottery - you get hired by biglaw and POOF you automatically drive to work everyday in a Bentley that you select from the many foreign cars sitting in the west-wing of your 5 acre estate. :D

Don't get me wrong as far as salaries go, as the article points out, it is up there.  When I was growing up, my mom raised us on a $12k/yr secretary salary - so a biglaw salary is, relatively speaking, light years beyond the standard of living that my brothers and sisters and I were used to.  Even by midwest standards.  But by that same token of relativity, I also have enough real life work experience dealing with uncle sam to know that I will not be able to live like I have just hit the lottery either.  Until you get to the point where you can sit back and let your money work for you, you have to spend wisely and carefully.  Even with a Wachtell biglaw salary in NY.




Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: smujd2007 on September 04, 2007, 10:21:48 AM
Yeah, Sands.  I have the same background.  My mom raised us on a salary only slightly above the poverty line and somehow still managed to pay 1800/semester on my undergraduate education so that I could finish up my bachelors at SMU.

But, I'd like to think that she did that so I wouldn't have to live like that, so I realize that I have to make very wise financial decisions.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on September 05, 2007, 09:37:01 AM
Distribution of 2006 Starting Salaries: Best Graphic Chart of the Year

The most recent edition of NALP's serial publication,  Jobs & JD's, includes the chart excerpted below [click-on to enlarge].  It is the distribution of full-time salaries for all members of the Class of 2006 who reported income data to their respective law school (22,665 graduates).  If you were looking for a single graphic to illustrate the most vexing problems facing law firms, law students, and law schools, this would be it.  A more dramatic bimodal distribution you will not find.

(http://www.elsblog.org/the_empirical_legal_studi/images/2007/08/30/nalp_bimodal.jpg)

The sample includes--in order of size--private practice (55.8%), business (14.2%), government (10.6%), judicial clerks (9.6%), public interest (5.4%), and other (2.8%).  Half of the graduates make less than the $62,000 per year median--but remarkably, there is no clustering there.  Over a quarter (27.5%) make between $40k-$55k per year, and another quarter (27.8%) have an annual salary of $100K plus.   

If the chart were a flipbook of the last twenty years, the first mode would be relatively stationary, barely tracking inflation, while the second mode would be moving quickly to the right--i.e., the salary wars.  In fact, because of the recent jump to $160K in the major markets, the second mode has already moved even more to the right.

What are the implications of this chart?

    * For law students. Let's face it:  $40K to $55K per year is just not enough to pay down the avg. $85,000 debt (especially as interest rates climb) and still enjoy any kind of lifestyle that a professional degree is presumed to confer. The national median starting salary for a 2 to 10 lawyer firm is $50,000.   There are a lot of struggling alumni out there. And do we really need more law schools?  For many, getting a JD is a very risky financial proposition, especially when you factor in bar passage.

    * For law schools.  Because different law schools supply graduates into different modes (roughly tracking US News rank), it is indisputable that lower-ranked schools cannot continue to heap ever higher debt onto their students.  On the other hand, if you are Georgetown, NYU, Northwestern, Harvard, Columbia, et al., your current model works just fine.  The salary wars make this possible.    Yet, 50 to 75 other law schools raising tuition in order to buy their way into the Top 15 is a classic positional competition--and it is socially harmful, with our students bearing the cost.  As legal educators, we can do better.

    * For law firms. The second mode keep moving to the right because too many law firms refuse to reconsider their business model in light of a continuing surge in demand for corporate legal services.   All these firms want Harvard, Columbia, Chicago graduates, etc. and, if necessary, Illinois (top 25%),  Indiana (top 15%), Marquette (top 10%), etc.  If legal education worked like any other market, Northwestern would be merging with Cardozo, exploiting Cardozo's capacity and location and leveraging Northwestern's brand.  But law schools are maximizing prestige, not output or profit.  Such a merger would be dilutive or break-even at best for the higher ranked school.

    There is a lot of commodity corporate legal work on there; why not bow out of the salary wars, ratchet down the hours to 1800, take work on a flat fee arrangement, focus on better/faster service (thus increasing margins on the flat fees), and literally feast on the human capital willing to take a job in the "death valley" range (i.e., ~$80,000 per year), especially if the hours are sane.  The client gets quality and cost predictability, and the well-managed firm can make a lot of money.  This is a great opportunity for a firm willing to rethink its business model. Larry Ribstein's publicly held law firm would be all over this. But any established large firm willing to think outside the box could do it.

http://www.elsblog.org/the_empirical_legal_studi/2007/09/distribution-of.html
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on September 05, 2007, 10:08:22 AM
Interesting article.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: jarhead on September 05, 2007, 07:26:00 PM
But, not a Wachtell 6-figure salary. ;)

LOL.  Maybe so, but even still, it is notable to observe that there are some not-too-impressive apartments in NY that literally cost more than a Wachtell 6-figure salary.  So even the mighty Wachtell is not exempt here.


Which goes back to a topic we were talking about earlier maybe some months back about living below your means - even for biglaw associates.  Pre-laws (especially those who have never lived in a major city before) look at $160k/yr as the lottery - you get hired by biglaw and POOF you automatically drive to work everyday in a Bentley that you select from the many foreign cars sitting in the west-wing of your 5 acre estate. :D

Don't get me wrong as far as salaries go, as the article points out, it is up there.  When I was growing up, my mom raised us on a $12k/yr secretary salary - so a biglaw salary is, relatively speaking, light years beyond the standard of living that my brothers and sisters and I were used to.  Even by midwest standards.  But by that same token of relativity, I also have enough real life work experience dealing with uncle sam to know that I will not be able to live like I have just hit the lottery either.  Until you get to the point where you can sit back and let your money work for you, you have to spend wisely and carefully.  Even with a Wachtell biglaw salary in NY.






preach bruh...
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on September 06, 2007, 08:42:05 AM
I think for most of us, working at biglaw is great, but working at biglaw is not the end of the road.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: blk_reign on September 06, 2007, 08:46:25 AM
it's an opening to bigger and better goals ;D

I think for most of us, working at biglaw is great, but working at biglaw is not the end of the road.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on September 06, 2007, 08:52:15 AM
it's an opening to bigger and better goals ;D

I think for most of us, working at biglaw is great, but working at biglaw is not the end of the road.

Most def.  Merely a starting point if you will.  A stepping stone as I like to call it.

I have little aspirations of making partner, but to those that do, good luck to you.  It def would not be a bad look per se, but my head is elsewhere.   I'd like to sit back with a commercial real estate portfolio that I've built up that brings me $500k annually and be able to sleep in everyday, go play with my kids, take my wife out on the town, etc. than be at the office until 1am every night + saturdays making $3million/yr. Time is too important. But to each their own.





Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: smujd2007 on September 06, 2007, 09:39:49 PM
Time is definitely more important than money . . .

it's an opening to bigger and better goals ;D

I think for most of us, working at biglaw is great, but working at biglaw is not the end of the road.

Most def.  Merely a starting point if you will.  A stepping stone as I like to call it.

I have little aspirations of making partner, but to those that do, good luck to you.  It def would not be a bad look per se, but my head is elsewhere.   I'd like to sit back with a commercial real estate portfolio that I've built up that brings me $500k annually and be able to sleep in everyday, go play with my kids, take my wife out on the town, etc. than be at the office until 1am every night + saturdays making $3million/yr. Time is too important. But to each their own.






Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: pikey on September 07, 2007, 12:07:16 PM
Time is definitely more important than money . . .

it's an opening to bigger and better goals ;D

I think for most of us, working at biglaw is great, but working at biglaw is not the end of the road.

Most def.  Merely a starting point if you will.  A stepping stone as I like to call it.

I have little aspirations of making partner, but to those that do, good luck to you.  It def would not be a bad look per se, but my head is elsewhere.   I'd like to sit back with a commercial real estate portfolio that I've built up that brings me $500k annually and be able to sleep in everyday, go play with my kids, take my wife out on the town, etc. than be at the office until 1am every night + saturdays making $3million/yr. Time is too important. But to each their own.







titcr.  My parents were both workaholics (though they're better now) and that completely turned me off of the typical biglaw/ibanking lifestyle.  I would rather have a life than tons of money but no time to spend it.  I'm thinking I might transition into charitable giving at some point.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on September 07, 2007, 01:56:15 PM
One of my friends just rented at this place in NYC:

http://www.archstoneapartments.com/archstoneapartments_v2/Templates/Floorplans.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID=%7bFD4261CC-269B-4D41-9B97-ACD0064CBC85%7d&NRORIGINALURL=%2fApartments%2fNew_York%2fNew_York_City%2fArchstone_Chelsea%2ffloorplans%2ehtm&NRCACHEHINT=NoModifyGuest

No effin' way I'd pay $3500/month for a 588 sq. ft. studio!
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Statistic on September 07, 2007, 02:43:33 PM
One of my friends just rented at this place in NYC:

http://www.archstoneapartments.com/archstoneapartments_v2/Templates/Floorplans.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID=%7bFD4261CC-269B-4D41-9B97-ACD0064CBC85%7d&NRORIGINALURL=%2fApartments%2fNew_York%2fNew_York_City%2fArchstone_Chelsea%2ffloorplans%2ehtm&NRCACHEHINT=NoModifyGuest

No effin' way I'd pay $3500/month for a 588 sq. ft. studio!

"Studio apartments suck. It's a constant reminder that you are one room away from being homeless."

warm up act for Paul Mooney I saw on Sunday. lol funny dude. I dont remember his name. :(
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: smujd2007 on September 07, 2007, 06:26:47 PM

Lol.  However, if you look at the 1 bedroom floorplan that is available, its not much bigger and cost significantly more. . . can't say that if I had to, I wouldn't have made the same choice.  :-\

One of my friends just rented at this place in NYC:

http://www.archstoneapartments.com/archstoneapartments_v2/Templates/Floorplans.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID=%7bFD4261CC-269B-4D41-9B97-ACD0064CBC85%7d&NRORIGINALURL=%2fApartments%2fNew_York%2fNew_York_City%2fArchstone_Chelsea%2ffloorplans%2ehtm&NRCACHEHINT=NoModifyGuest

No effin' way I'd pay $3500/month for a 588 sq. ft. studio!

"Studio apartments suck. It's a constant reminder that you are one room away from being homeless."

warm up act for Paul Mooney I saw on Sunday. lol funny dude. I dont remember his name. :(
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on September 07, 2007, 07:38:40 PM
Yeah a wall isn't worth that much to me.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on September 12, 2007, 12:53:57 PM
Yeah a wall isn't worth that much to me.

LOL I heard that.

I'm trying to figure out if I want to pay the extra $200/month for an outside balcony or not.

Could be a good look but will I really use it is the question?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: pikey on September 12, 2007, 12:58:17 PM
Yeah a wall isn't worth that much to me.

LOL I heard that.

I'm trying to figure out if I want to pay the extra $200/month for an outside balcony or not.

Could be a good look but will I really use it is the question?

I wouldn't do it.  How many months are you really gonna use it? It's already to cold for balconies (imo).
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on September 12, 2007, 01:02:13 PM
Yeah a wall isn't worth that much to me.

LOL I heard that.

I'm trying to figure out if I want to pay the extra $200/month for an outside balcony or not.

Could be a good look but will I really use it is the question?

I wouldn't do it.  How many months are you really gonna use it? It's already to cold for balconies (imo).

Yeah you think so? 
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: pikey on September 12, 2007, 01:07:02 PM
Yeah a wall isn't worth that much to me.

LOL I heard that.

I'm trying to figure out if I want to pay the extra $200/month for an outside balcony or not.

Could be a good look but will I really use it is the question?

I wouldn't do it.  How many months are you really gonna use it? It's already to cold for balconies (imo).

Yeah you think so? 

I guess you have to decide if it's worth an extra $2,400 to you.  Say you really use it from April to September.  That's only 6 months, so it's really $400 a month for the months you use it.  Is a balcony really worth $400 a month?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on September 12, 2007, 01:17:18 PM
Since you put it that way....
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: A. on September 12, 2007, 01:27:23 PM
Could you grill on it, perhaps?  Another advantage would be the ability to put a satellite dish out there instead of being ripped off by cable.  I generally like balconies.
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Statistic on September 12, 2007, 01:33:52 PM
yah... can you put some ribs on there?
Title: Re: Life As An Associate
Post by: Gengiswump on September 12, 2007, 01:35:50 PM
Actually, you could probably regularly use a balcony in NY into October, IMO, especially if you have a space heater.

(But you can't trust me - I like balconies/decks because they make entertaining easier.  If you don't ever entertain, or grill, as Alci pointed out,