Law School Discussion

Off-Topic Area => Politics and Law-Related News => Topic started by: waitlisted on June 25, 2006, 11:13:35 PM

Title: .
Post by: waitlisted on June 25, 2006, 11:13:35 PM
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Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Leshy on July 05, 2006, 04:08:46 PM
Am Yisrael chai.

(http://cpctucson.org/images/D4%20Israeli%20flag.jpg)
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 05, 2006, 04:50:30 PM
This has been long over due.

Rocket attacks and the kidnapping of a soldier is the result of a lax offense.

You must keep up the pressure, consistently, until the Palestinian people learn to hate the terrorists more than the IDF.

It is because of the actions of some terrorists that the Palestinian people must collectively suffer. The Palestinians must understand that terrorist attacks on Israelis are the precursors to the events that bring about the deterioration of the lives that exist in the territories.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 05, 2006, 05:11:01 PM
Monkeyface, and you're a genious.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 05, 2006, 05:50:11 PM
Never said I could spell, all I said was that you're a genious, er uhmm genius.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 05, 2006, 06:09:27 PM
That would explain it.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: ! B L U E WAR R I O R..! on July 05, 2006, 09:54:42 PM
israels and palestinians are brothers and sisters who can't get along...arabs and jews are both semetic peoples...they are related...they are both of the same human race...yet they seem to forget this.

however...the terrorists must be taken to task...and the palestinians must realize that the "crescenting guerrillas" in their midst must be lit up...or else blocks and blocks of palestinians will die...

palestinians must hate the "crescenting guerrillas" more than their israeli relatives...and it seems that force and strength is all that will wake them up from their night-terrors of hate.... :'(



Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: ! B L U E WAR R I O R..! on July 05, 2006, 10:02:23 PM
unfortunately hashem and allah are not listening...

a new time has arrived...g.h. is here.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 05, 2006, 10:03:35 PM
bluewarrior, well said, but just because they are our biblical "brothers", does not mean I should trust the average Palestinians - and I don't.

The definition of a Semite has deviated from its original to become a phrase synonymous with the Jewish people. I don't like to put them in the same category as us.

At this point in time, they are our enemies and I donít consider them our brothers. We didnít fight for Hitler; we didnít blow up mosques and we do not do everything in our power to kill civilians.
 
Separation is delicious.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 05, 2006, 10:07:43 PM
Arabs can not even live with each other, and we expect a peace between Arab and Jew?

It is important that the World becomes realistic, but it is far more imperative that we as a Jewish people see the reality of the situation.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: ! B L U E WAR R I O R..! on July 05, 2006, 10:16:06 PM
there is no deviation from the original...semetic is arab and jew...period...you cannot re-write the past like a rap artist piggybacks a classic lyric and calls it something else...that definition of semetic is both arab and jew...and while some "forget" this...it is a fact which some of us will always remember.

aye understand your anger but remember that palestinians too removed themselves from the fertile crescent because they wished to live in peace...an exodus, if you will.

the "crescenting guerrillas" must be destroyed...and only the clerics and palestinian people can do that...in the mean time sheer force is the only thing to which these "crescenting guerrillas" bow...and that is what will come.




bluewarrior, well said, but just because they are our biblical "brothers", does not mean I should trust the average Palestinians - and I don't.

The definition of a Semite has deviated from its original to become a phrase synonymous with the Jewish people. I don't like to put them in the same category as us.

At this point in time, they are our enemies and I donít consider them our brothers. We didnít fight for Hitler; we didnít blow up mosques and we do not do everything in our power to kill civilians.
 
Separation is delicious.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 05, 2006, 11:07:00 PM
Quote
there is no deviation from the original...semetic is arab and jew...period...you cannot re-write the past like a rap artist piggybacks a classic lyric and calls it something else...that definition of semetic is both arab and jew...and while some "forget" this...it is a fact which some of us will always remember.

bluewarrior, guess what... the swastika wasn't always a symbol of the nazi party.

Quote
the "crescenting guerrillas" must be destroyed...and only the clerics and palestinian people can do that.

The clerics and palestinian people are the only ones that can destroy the "crescenting guerrillas"? That'll never happen, ever - never ever ever ever.

an∑ti-Sem∑i∑tism (nt-sm-tzm, nt-)
n.
Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
Discrimination against Jews.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: ! B L U E WAR R I O R..! on July 05, 2006, 11:21:34 PM
Quote
there is no deviation from the original...semetic is arab and jew...period...you cannot re-write the past like a rap artist piggybacks a classic lyric and calls it something else...that definition of semetic is both arab and jew...and while some "forget" this...it is a fact which some of us will always remember.

bluewarrior, guess what... the swastika wasn't always a symbol of the nazi party.

Quote
the "crescenting guerrillas" must be destroyed...and only the clerics and palestinian people can do that.

The clerics and palestinian people are the only ones that can destroy the "crescenting guerrillas"? That'll never happen, ever - never ever ever ever.
an∑ti-Sem∑i∑tism (nt-sm-tzm, nt-)
n.
Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
Discrimination against Jews.

the swastika is a symbol not a living breathing people.

and those who are semites are either arabic or jewish...seriously...look it up.

in nyc, since 911 there has been much anti-semitic sentiment toward arabs...sorry, but this is a growing fact.

you can't argue around this.


if enough of their children are killed in the periphery...they will....look at northern ireland for example...
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: krumanadi on July 05, 2006, 11:32:38 PM
Hamas painted themselves into a corner.  It is lose lose for them, because if they return the soldier, then they lose face with their "faithful" so they will not return him, and Israel is going to take this opportunity to wipe them off the planet.  And justifiably so.  Hamas went across a border into a soveriegn nation and kidnapped one of their soldiers.  It is unfathomable that anyone would still be able to give them any sympathy after that. 

Hamas is so surprised that Israel will not negotiate.  Of course they wont negotiate.  There is no negotiation.  Give us back our soldier, now, or we will bomb the hell out of you. 

A friend said he thought Hamas would "leak" the soldiers coordinates, and allow Israel to get him back, as a way of defusing the situation, and saving face.  I don't think Israel will let Hamas off so easy.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 06, 2006, 12:45:40 AM
The point is, I did look it up.

Quote
Semēite    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (smt)
n.
A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.
A Jew.
Bible. A descendant of Shem.
The second definition is a Jew, specifically, so that would suggest that it is more synonymous now with the Jewish people than all Semitic speaking peoples.

A word is a symbol just like the swastika, and a word can change meaning over time. It does not necessarily mean that I am changing history.

Feel free to use Ďanti-Semitismí in the wrong context, because after 9/11 there was hate primarily targeting Arabs and Muslims, not Jews.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 06, 2006, 12:47:22 AM
Harvey Birdman, great post. Thanks.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: ! B L U E WAR R I O R..! on July 06, 2006, 11:00:31 AM
The point is, I did look it up.

Quote
Semēite    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (smt)
n.
A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.
A Jew.  Bible. A descendant of Shem.
The second definition is a Jew, specifically, so that would suggest that it is more synonymous now with the Jewish people than all Semitic speaking peoples.

A word is a symbol just like the swastika, and a word can change meaning over time. It does not necessarily mean that I am changing history.

Feel free to use Ďanti-Semitismí in the wrong context, because after 9/11 there was hate primarily targeting Arabs and Muslims, not Jews.

it is not a matter of me feeling free...it is a fact...backed up with your definition...sorry. :-\

all of these are semitic peoples...no way around it.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 06, 2006, 02:23:31 PM
I rather use the latter definition, because that's what it has become. The word has become more synonymous with Jewry than any other of the nationality it has previously covered. That's why there is no subsequent definition for Arabs, or any other of the groups of people listed in the first definition.

Additionally, the negative form of the adjective, anti-Semitism, "is almost always used as a misnomer to mean "anti-Jewish" specifically". This further complicates the meaning, and adds weight to the belief that in our modern society, a Semite is a reference for Jewry.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: ! B L U E WAR R I O R..! on July 12, 2006, 10:48:22 PM
I rather use the latter definition, because that's what it has become. The word has become more synonymous with Jewry than any other of the nationality it has previously covered. That's why there is no subsequent definition for Arabs, or any other of the groups of people listed in the first definition.

Additionally, the negative form of the adjective, anti-Semitism, "is almost always used as a misnomer to mean "anti-Jewish" specifically". This further complicates the meaning, and adds weight to the belief that in our modern society, a Semite is a reference for Jewry.

you will inevitably use what you wish anyway you wish...however facts are facts...anti-semitic attitudes and sentiments toward arabs in nyc is a serious problem...this IS the correct definition for this prejudice...like it or not...it is the disease which will not be mis-diagnosed.

exactly what educated people do you believe do not understand that a semite IS both: an arabic or jewish person? most of the educated folks with whom aye associate myself know this.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 12, 2006, 11:10:18 PM
SheeeshÖ it's not anti-Semitism when hate is directed towards Arabs. That is anti-arab/anti-muslim sentiment. 

Youíre incorrect because you are using an ambiguous word you idiot. Anti-Semitism is defined as hatred towards Jews.

Yeah, I can tell just how educated you are.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: nmb238 on July 13, 2006, 07:12:42 AM
bluewarrior- i think offmason's point is that while Arab and Jew are both Semites, modern culture has designated the word "anti-Semitic" to refer to hatred of Jews. I think this traces back to the Nazis, who designated the jews for the first time as a separate semitic race, as opposed to their Aryan one. Nazis had blatant contempt for nonwhites, and they had to rope Jews into the nonwhite category and thus targeted Jews first because they physically looked like everyone else. They were designated as Semites to remind everyone that they were like the inferior Arabs, who would later come under Aryan rule/annihilation as well.

anyway i think thats the history but i could be wrong. i dont think anyone- educated or not- would call an rightist Jewish settler an "anti-Semite" for disliking Arabs. at the same time, to deny that Jews and Arabs share a Semitic heritage is also pretty silly.

Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: rhombot on July 13, 2006, 11:19:17 AM
the usage traces back to some of the nazis' forerunners in late 19th century germany.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Shaan on July 13, 2006, 02:42:36 PM
Israel's recent attacks on civilian infrastructure, which have led to a humanitarian crisis, are not justifiable under the circumstances of the conflict. Does the kidnapping (not murder) of two soldiers, plus the firing of a few rockets justify the deaths of over 100 Palestinian and Lebanese civilians? Does it justify the kidnapping of Palestinian foreign ministers, the destruction of government buildings in Palestine, the demolition of civilian bridges? Does it justify the bombing of a TV station and an international civilian airport in Lebanon?

Leaders from all over the world have denounced Israel's disproportionate use of force. The only country that has not done so is the United States -- no surprise there.

Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: ad hominem on July 13, 2006, 04:54:09 PM
israel's attack was not under the category of terrorism.  the fuel tanks at the beirut int'l airport were attacked to isolate and immobilize the hezbollah.  none can escape and no weapons will be sent to them from syria or iran.  this was more of a military strategic attack.  there was no intent by israel to kill civilians for the sake of it, which is unlike the attack of 9/11.  8 civilians were killed, which is very unfortunate, but collateral damage will inevitably ensue in any type of conflict.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: ad hominem on July 13, 2006, 05:03:19 PM
Does the kidnapping (not murder) of two soldiers, plus the firing of a few rockets justify the deaths of over 100 Palestinian and Lebanese civilians? Does it justify the kidnapping of Palestinian foreign ministers, the destruction of government buildings in Palestine, the demolition of civilian bridges? Does it justify the bombing of a TV station and an international civilian airport in Lebanon?


i think that the build up of hostile acts by the middle eastern region has cause israel to snap.  this goes beyond than 2 kidnapped soldiers, it's 60 years of struggle.  israel is definitely trying to make a statement that it will no longer take a backseat.  heck, they could fight the whole middle east by themselves and win. (six days war)
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: sk on July 13, 2006, 05:23:16 PM
Israel's recent attacks on civilian infrastructure, which have led to a humanitarian crisis, are not justifiable under the circumstances of the conflict. Does the kidnapping (not murder) of two soldiers, plus the firing of a few rockets justify the deaths of over 100 Palestinian and Lebanese civilians? Does it justify the kidnapping of Palestinian foreign ministers, the destruction of government buildings in Palestine, the demolition of civilian bridges? Does it justify the bombing of a TV station and an international civilian airport in Lebanon?

Leaders from all over the world have denounced Israel's disproportionate use of force. The only country that has not done so is the United States -- no surprise there.




The answer to your question, rhetorical as it may be, is YES! The kidnapping of three (not two) soldiers and the firing of hundreds (not a few) of rockets does justify the seemingly extreme reaction by the Israeli government. After the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza the Palestinian government chose, with absolutely no provocation, to lunch missiles at the city of Sderot on a daily basis. A sovereign nation being attacked cannot stand idly by while its citizenry is being bombed. If you have a problem grasping this concept of self-defense, just imagine what the US would have done to a nation lunching rockets at its cities. This unprovoked attack, in turn, is the sole underlying cause for the escalation. The IDF is simply exercising the right given to every sovereign nation: self-defense.

What amazes me time and time again is how those sorry-ass excuses for leaders, which include most of the European and Arab heads of state, refer to Israelís self-defense as ďaggressionĒ. Itís astounding that after crossing over into sovereign Israeli territory, kidnapping Israeli soldiers, and bombing Israeli cities, all with absolutely no provocation, the leaders of the Hezbollah have the audacity to call for appeasement. Did they really think that their terror will have no consequences?
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Miss P on July 13, 2006, 07:19:53 PM
That's the pikuah nefesh spirit, ain't it?
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: sk on July 13, 2006, 07:42:41 PM
what do you mean??
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Miss P on July 13, 2006, 09:02:13 PM
what do you mean??

If you don't understand this bastard bit of Judaism, I'm afraid your defense of a Jewish state just lost a bit of my esteem, champ.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Miss P on July 13, 2006, 09:13:23 PM
That's the pikuah nefesh spirit, ain't it?

not worth much if all 6 million Jews are killed by Iranian nukes, is it...   ::)

Either you know something I don't know about Iranian politics (which I strongly doubt!), or these are hardly related. And don't point me to the IDF press release, okay?
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Miss P on July 13, 2006, 09:54:54 PM
That's the pikuah nefesh spirit, ain't it?

not worth much if all 6 million Jews are killed by Iranian nukes, is it...   ::)

Either you know something I don't know about Iranian politics (which I strongly doubt!), or these are hardly related. And don't point me to the IDF press release, okay?

you're just slow.  problem is, if I wait for you to catch up, there will be 6mln dead Jews, and a few mln dead Palestinians since Arabs are expendable to Arab states if it achieves pan-Islamic goals...

You know, trollik, I really don't know where you get off calling me an idiot all the time.  Especially if you truly believe there is anything "pan-Islamic" about Iranian politics. 
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: @#$%, Fire, and Damnation. on July 13, 2006, 10:03:30 PM
700,000 Israeli's are in bomb shelters right now because of the Hizballah attack on Haifa.  But you didn't hear that from the anti-semetic media prostitutes on CNN so it isn't true.

http://debka.com/headline.php?hid=2877
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Miss P on July 13, 2006, 10:07:59 PM
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/08072006/323/iran-s-ahmadinejad-calls-removal-zionist-regime.html

note who the conference was attended by: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060708/wl_mideast_afp/mideastunrestarab

keep making excuses... like they did for Hitler when he took the Sudetenland...

i give up arguing with you.  just reinforces the point that action is going to have to be unilateral and not taking "public opinion" into account.  it was your kind of bull that led to the current attacks, restraint restraint restraint.  same bull led to the suicide bombs that fell almost daily from late 2000 until mid 2002 when Israel stopped practicing "restraint".  you just don't understand what we're dealing with here.  and I'm not going to waste anymore time explaining it to you.

*&^%, there's an Arab League?  You're f-ing kidding me.  I had no idea.

Yeah, you're right.  All the "explaining" you could do is not going to convince me that Ahmadinejad gives half a *&^% about the Palestinians.  Yes, he wants to destroy Israel.  Is this news?  Really?  I'm really not seeing how this justifies bombing Lebanon back to 1991.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Miss P on July 13, 2006, 10:14:36 PM
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/08072006/323/iran-s-ahmadinejad-calls-removal-zionist-regime.html

note who the conference was attended by: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060708/wl_mideast_afp/mideastunrestarab

keep making excuses... like they did for Hitler when he took the Sudetenland...

i give up arguing with you.  just reinforces the point that action is going to have to be unilateral and not taking "public opinion" into account.  it was your kind of bull that led to the current attacks, restraint restraint restraint.  same bull led to the suicide bombs that fell almost daily from late 2000 until mid 2002 when Israel stopped practicing "restraint".  you just don't understand what we're dealing with here.  and I'm not going to waste anymore time explaining it to you.

sh*t, there's an Arab League?  You're f-ing kidding me.  I had no idea.

Yeah, you're right.  All the "explaining" you could do is not going to convince me that Ahmadinejad gives half a sh*t about the Palestinians.  Yes, he wants to destroy Israel.  Is this news?  Really?  I'm really not seeing how this justifies bombing Lebanon back to 1991.

because that's the only way to get the soldiers back without having another kidnapping the after a "prisoner exchange".  is that penetrating your head yet?

Because... destroying the infrastructure in Lebanon... with its already very weak government... will give that government... the power to control a radical and violent faction?  Is that it?
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: @#$%, Fire, and Damnation. on July 13, 2006, 10:17:53 PM
Hizbollah is done.  Israel has shut of their access to the border of Israel and their exits from Lebanon.  They're going to kill them all I would assume.

http://info.jpost.com/C005/Channel2/
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Miss P on July 13, 2006, 10:33:28 PM
I've told you so many times, Trollik, I'm not "liberal."

And I'm sick of being insulted, so I'm out.  Enjoy banging your head against the wall or jacking off in front of that clip AJ linked you to or whatever.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: @#$%, Fire, and Damnation. on July 13, 2006, 10:46:49 PM
At some point you have to realize that Israel gave up Gaza a year ago and pulled out of Lebanon a long time ago.  Israel's own police force uprooted people who had settled and made homesteads and buried their dead in Gaza.  That was to be a step toward a homeland for the Palestinians who rightfully deserve one.  But Israel is just going to sit there while Hizbullah (I've seen it spelled 3 ways) launches 100, yes 100, rockets into Haifa?  They give up Gaza and they get rockets in Haifa?  That's gotta end.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Miss P on July 13, 2006, 10:49:08 PM
AJ - the rockets don't kill anyone.  That's the difference. They're pathetic, pathetic displays of aggression.

Trollik - thanks for the mitzvah.  I owe you one.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: jballer on July 13, 2006, 10:51:56 PM
Yeah bombing Lebanon and destroying the Sinoira government that just FINALLY got the Syrians out is going to help Israel.  I could understand bombing southern Lebanon and tryng to get rid of Hezbollah.  I could even understand bombing parts of southern Beirut where Hezbollah occupies.  But bombing the airport and destroying Lebanese tourism is against Israeli and Lebanese interests.  Lebanon gets a big chunk of its revenue from tourism.  Making Lebanon a poor country, which is what Israel is doing by bombing Lebanon by getting rid of tourists, is hurting Israel because a poorer and weaker Lebanon is a Lebanon that is going to succumb to more Islamic militants.  

Now you can say they are doing it to get those two soldiers back but I would be highly surprised if they were in Lebanon.  And even if, Hezbollah and especially Nasrallah would rather kill those soldiers than get nothing in return from them.  

By the way AJ, you're talking about anti-semitic bias in the news? Come on.  CNN biased towards the Arabs? Yeah, maybe compared to the Jerusalem Post.  
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: @#$%, Fire, and Damnation. on July 13, 2006, 10:54:54 PM
AJ - the rockets don't kill anyone.  That's the difference. They're pathetic, pathetic displays of aggression.

Trollik - thanks for the mitzvah.  I owe you one.

Miss P., with all do respect, you can't be serious.  They've killed several already and huge numbers of Israelis are hiding in bomb shelters around that city.  You do realize Hizbulloh or Hezbollah or however you want to spell it wants Israel completely annihilated?  They are never going to stop.  And what about the Hitler of Iran that funds Hizbullah?  He's already said outright that all Jews must die.  Hitler in all of Mein Kampf doesnt go that far.  Their can be no doubt of how this is going to have to be resolved.  The will not stop unless and until they are all dead.  The psychopaths say that themselves.

 
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: jballer on July 13, 2006, 11:04:32 PM
I don't think the "liberals and Europeans" are against disarming Hezbollah.  However, bombing the hell out of Lebanon isn't exactly the best way to do it. 

By the way, I hope you don't get all your news from Israeli newspapers.  There's nothing wrong with checking them out but if you get all of your facts about what is currently going on over there then you are getting it from one side.  Check out some other newspapers to at least understand the view point of others involved.  You seem to not really understand the other side and characterize them all as crazy lunatics. 
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: jballer on July 13, 2006, 11:07:19 PM
I don't doubt it.  But try reading an unbiased (imo) Lebanese news site.  www.dailystar.com.lb --click on 'lebanon' on the left so you don't get general Middle East news. I'm not asking you to watch Al-Manar (not that you could anyway). 
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: jballer on July 13, 2006, 11:10:08 PM
As biased as it gets? I bet you could I show give you 10 examples to prove you wrong. 
And you're crazy to think that site is biased.  Perhaps you are so slanted that it appears biased to you...I could understand that. 

Read the main article about what is going on and prove your claim.  I have a feeling you're not an expert on Lebanese media.   
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: @#$%, Fire, and Damnation. on July 13, 2006, 11:11:58 PM
I don't think the "liberals and Europeans" are against disarming Hezbollah.  However, bombing the hell out of Lebanon isn't exactly the best way to do it. 

By the way, I hope you don't get all your news from Israeli newspapers.  There's nothing wrong with checking them out but if you get all of your facts about what is currently going on over there then you are getting it from one side.  Check out some other newspapers to at least understand the view point of others involved.  You seem to not really understand the other side and characterize them all as crazy lunatics. 

Do you know anything about Hizbullah or Hamas or Iran?  Seriously?  I can't believe you would even suggest that I, or trollik, need to have an open mind up militant Islamic groups that have stated publicly, in no uncertain terms, that the Jews and Israel must be destroyed.  "The other side"???   I'm merely characterizing them as crazy lunatics???  HELLO.

Let me repeat that; the Jews and all of Israel must be destroyed.  And you know what, it doesn't stop with the Jews in Israel.  They hate west.  They hate you and they want to either convert you to Islam or  cut your head off and force your women to leave their jobs and your 13 year old daughters to have clitorectamies.  That's reality.  THEY SAID IT THEMSELVES.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: jballer on July 13, 2006, 11:19:13 PM
Do I know anything about Hezbollah? Well I think I wrote my thesis on them.  And hmm what else? Oh yeah I've been to Lebanon four times.  But other than that, no I don't. 

First of all, let me say that I am 100% anti-Hezbollah.  These are the people that destroy my second country and to be honest, I hope they all die and get out of Lebanon. 

I am talking about the side of the Arabs in general.  For example, the majority of the Lebanese in Lebanon.  Pretty much, all of the Maronites, Sunnis, and Druze are against Hezbollah but having no way to stop them.  By bombing Lebanon, you are rallying them to side with Hezbollah. 

And you do need to try to understand the Islamist point of view.  If you characterize them as just crazy, you will never defeat them because you do not truly understand them.  Again, I hate them as much as you do, but you can't just say they are illogical psychos who don't think rationally.   
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: sk on July 13, 2006, 11:24:02 PM
Do I know anything about Hezbollah? Well I think I wrote my thesis on them.  And hmm what else? Oh yeah I've been to Lebanon four times.  But other than that, no I don't. 

First of all, let me say that I am 100% anti-Hezbollah.  These are the people that destroy my second country and to be honest, I hope they all die and get out of Lebanon. 

I am talking about the side of the Arabs in general.  For example, the majority of the Lebanese in Lebanon.  Pretty much, all of the Maronites, Sunnis, and Druze are against Hezbollah but having no way to stop them.  By bombing Lebanon, you are rallying them to side with Hezbollah. 

And you do need to try to understand the Islamist terrorist point of view.  If you characterize them as just crazy, you will never defeat them because you do not truly understand them.  Again, I hate them as much as you do, but you can't just say they are illogical psychos who don't think rationally.   


NO! What Israel is doing is merely pressuring them to finally take action. At this point, the Israeli leadership (and public) could care less about anything but bringing back the missing soldiers. Unless that happens, ans soon, Lebanon will not see a quiet day for a long time. Enough is enough!!!
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: @#$%, Fire, and Damnation. on July 13, 2006, 11:24:55 PM
Do I know anything about Hezbollah? Well I think I wrote my thesis on them.  And hmm what else? Oh yeah I've been to Lebanon four times.  But other than that, no I don't. 

First of all, let me say that I am 100% anti-Hezbollah.  These are the people that destroy my second country and to be honest, I hope they all die and get out of Lebanon. 

I am talking about the side of the Arabs in general.  For example, the majority of the Lebanese in Lebanon.  Pretty much, all of the Maronites, Sunnis, and Druze are against Hezbollah but having no way to stop them.  By bombing Lebanon, you are rallying them to side with Hezbollah.   


Ok, I didn't see where you were going with your comment before.  So clearly you understand the basic core message of the Islamic fundamentalists like Hezbollah to kill all Jews and destroy Israel, and if possible inflict as much pain on the west as they can.

There is an argument to be made that Israel's fighting back isn't merely going to have the result of driving otherwise unsympathetic Arabs to Hezbollah.  There are already sympathizers in great numbers in Lebanon and Iran.  The more logical explanation for the internal support of Hezbollah is that they provide social welfare to southern Lebanon which would otherwise be more desolate and impoverished.  They're seeking converts every day.  They've won a great many over with humanitarian-like outreaches to that region.    Aside from that of course is the base hatred of Israel that exists throughout the region anyway.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: jballer on July 13, 2006, 11:26:52 PM
Well no because there aren't any sand dunes in Lebanon 'smartass'.  

And bombing southern Lebanon vs. bombing deep into Lebanon is a different story.  

Bombing the airport and cutting off the main road between Syria and Lebanon is a different story.  You can say they are for strategic purposes to stop weapons from coming in and from preventing the captured soldiers to leave.  But trust me, they have enough weapons and that is only one of many roads that connects Lebanon to Syria.  They aren't stopping crap when they do those things.  They are only trying to scare the population which in turn is making the Lebanese hate Israel.  

And don't forget why Hezbollah was created.  Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 and stayed there for 18 years.  Had they not invaded...there would be no Hezbollah today.  (I realize the Palestinians are equally to blame for this but am just stating a fact).
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: jballer on July 13, 2006, 11:30:50 PM
You're right about that AJ.

But you have to understand that there is a great deal of Lebanese in Lebanon and almost ALL of the nearly 17 million (I think) Lebanese living abroad that are against Hezbollah.  Theres only 3.8 million Lebanese in Lebanon by the way. 

The government wants to take them down...but they can't because they have no military.  It is weak and they have no capabilities to take out Iranian and Syrian sponsored Hezbollah.  President Lahoud is pro-Syrian and is sympathetic towards Hezbollah.  Other than that, a great deal of politicians are against them...even though they may say they have no problems with them.

But think about it! If you are a Lebanese politician and you say Hezbollah is horrible and that it isn't Israel's fault...while Israel is bombing your country...how do you think you will look? Israel is swaying people who are against Hezbollah to at least sympathize with them. 

Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: jballer on July 13, 2006, 11:39:22 PM
Haha thanks for telling me what I think. 

Yes there is a large conflict with Islamic extremism today.  But your anti-Islamic beliefs don't really help out this present conflict. 

Yeah Israel could win a war with any of its neighbors.  There is no doubt about that.  You say Israel will win always and forever.  You think they should occupy Lebanon? Do you really think that is the best option for Israel? To occupy more land that isn't theirs?

Now call me crazy, but I don't think Israel enjoys occupying the land of others.  It isn't in their interest...there are better solutions. 

With your mentality, Israel would just use force whenever it had the right to...and not whenver it NEEDED to.  More occupation will lead to more war and more problems for Israel and for the rest of the Arab World.

But you don't think that way and it is people like you, on both the Israeli and Arab side, that perpetuate this conflict and death. 
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: @#$%, Fire, and Damnation. on July 13, 2006, 11:40:21 PM


But think about it! If you are a Lebanese politician and you say Hezbollah is horrible and that it isn't Israel's fault...while Israel is bombing your country...how do you think you will look? Israel is swaying people who are against Hezbollah to at least sympathize with them. 

You may well be right but that isn't necessarily a determinative factor in whether or not Israel is responding the right way.  Just based on what I've read and the actions Israel has taken already I think they intend to destroy Hezbollah completely at this point.  I'm sure they'll be a surgical about it as possible but innocent people are going to get caught in the middle.  That's a hard thing but its reality.  You can't boo Israel to death over it; its not their fault.  They left Lebanon and they gave up the Gaza strip.  But that was not enough and nothing will be enough, clearly.  Only the complete annihilation of Israel is enough for these extremist militant groups.

The support for Hezbollah runs deep.  Iran stands in the backdrop of all of this, don't forget.

 
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: @#$%, Fire, and Damnation. on July 13, 2006, 11:44:10 PM
  You say Israel will win always and forever.  You think they should occupy Lebanon? Do you really think that is the best option for Israel? To occupy more land that isn't theirs?

Now call me crazy, but I don't think Israel enjoys occupying the land of others.  It isn't in their interest...there are better solutions. 


They gave back Gaza already.  And from Gaza; rockets.  They're dragging Israel back in.  Israel is going to have to occupy more land re Gaza just to have a buffer zone so their cities aren't constantly under missile fire.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: jballer on July 13, 2006, 11:46:48 PM
I agree with you AJ.  

I hope Israel does destroy Hezbollah...I don't see it happening.  The best solution would be to help enforce UN SC resolution 1559.  There are many ways to do that without destroying Lebanon.  You could make the Sinoira government strong and provide incentives to send Hezbollah back to Iran.  You could help make the Lebanese Shiia feel that they are not underrepresented and therefore have to side with Hezbollah.    

But think for a second on what you said.  Israel got out of Lebanon.  You say it as if Israel did Lebanon a favor.  They were there for 18 years in an illegal occupation that, coupled with the Lebanese civil war, devastated the country.  

I agree that Iran is the major problem in this situation.  Therefore bombing Lebanon and weakening their democratic government that is a friend of the United States, is not going to accomplish anything.  You can kill 1000 Jihadists and 5000 will step in their place.  

If you think Lebanon's government is anti-west then you are wrong and need to take a look at the country's history with the United States.  They are friends.  There is a strong Lebanese-American population.  Just look a week or so back and see that Lebanon detained that man accused in the tunnel bombings that you were talking about Trollik.

There are other solutions to getting rid of Hezbollah instead of direct force. They just haven't been implemented. Death only creates more death.  I don't think that is in Israel's or Lebanon's interst.  Only Iran and Syria because they are the governments that are truly anti-American and anti-Israeli.    
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: jballer on July 13, 2006, 11:47:38 PM
I'm not talking about Gaza here.  I know they are connected but it is still a MUCH different situation and I know you know that. 
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: @#$%, Fire, and Damnation. on July 13, 2006, 11:56:14 PM



If you think Lebanon's government is anti-west then you are wrong and need to take a look at the country's history with the United States.  They are friends.  There is a strong Lebanese-American population.


I realize the factious militant groups causing the problems; that's why I continue to refer to Hezbollah specifically and in other posts, Hamas and the major factor Iran which is obviously no small group.  But the Lebanese government is somewhat complicit allowing Hezbollah to have 14 seats.  But that's not the issue and their hands are somewhat tied in their own country.  I understand that.

Iran is gearing up with Nukes.  Its an absolute lie coming out of that country that they intend only to have them for peace purposes. If we believe it we're the biggest fools since the apologists and appeasers that let WWII happen.  Just based on what that the psychopath Ahmadinejad has said already I think there can be little doubt he will ultimately use nuclear weapons on Israel if he gets them.  He has absolutely declared genocide against Jews. 
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: jballer on July 14, 2006, 12:04:25 AM
I wouldn't use the world complacent.  Those 14 out of the 128 seats were voted on by teh Shiia population that is poorly represented.  The government can't get rid of them or disarm them because Hezbollah is more powerful than the Lebanese army.  People don't seem to understand this.  If the Lebanese Army faced Hezbollah..Lebanon would lose.  They need help in disarming the group.  Israel has used force to disarm them which should have been a last option.  Unfortunately, everyone (including Lebanon and the US) is to blame for not staying active on disarming the group.  What I am saying is, Israel should not continue bombing Lebanon because nothing will be achieved.  I know you would be surprised to hear this, but I would say a strong majority of Lebanese people (in Lebanon and around the world) are in favor of Israel getting rid of Hezbollah.  However, if they expand the war to destroy all of Lebanon, including the pro-US government, it is against the interest of Israel, the US, and Lebanon and only plays into the hands of Islamic militants like Syria and Iran. 

And in regards to your view in Iran, I agree completely.  Action should be taken against Iran then.  They are the only real significant threat to Israel. They should not be allowed to develop a nuke.  I forsee Israel attacking Syria and this developing into a greater war.  I hope there is another way, and I pray for peace, but that's what I see happening. 
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: @#$%, Fire, and Damnation. on July 14, 2006, 12:16:30 AM
I wouldn't use the world complacent.  Those 14 out of the 128 seats were voted on by teh Shiia population that is poorly represented.  The government can't get rid of them or disarm them because Hezbollah is more powerful than the Lebanese army.  People don't seem to understand this.  If the Lebanese Army faced Hezbollah..Lebanon would lose.  They need help in disarming the group.  Israel has used force to disarm them which should have been a last option.  Unfortunately, everyone (including Lebanon and the US) is to blame for not staying active on disarming the group.  What I am saying is, Israel should not continue bombing Lebanon because nothing will be achieved.  I know you would be surprised to hear this, but I would say a strong majority of Lebanese people (in Lebanon and around the world) are in favor of Israel getting rid of Hezbollah.  However, if they expand the war to destroy all of Lebanon, including the pro-US government, it is against the interest of Israel, the US, and Lebanon and only plays into the hands of Islamic militants like Syria and Iran. 

And in regards to your view in Iran, I agree completely.  Action should be taken against Iran then.  They are the only real significant threat to Israel. They should not be allowed to develop a nuke.  I forsee Israel attacking Syria and this developing into a greater war.  I hope there is another way, and I pray for peace, but that's what I see happening. 

Complicit is the word I meant to use initially.  Hezbollah is Shiia itself.  I believe you that the majority of Lebanese are not against Israel (or the west for that matter) and have not teamed up against Israel with Hezbollah.  But I think it would be hasty to assume Israel intends to do more than eliminate Hezbollah at this point.  I don't interpret their acts as anything more than taking militarily calculated actions to shut down Hezbollah's ability to gather around the border and fire into Israel.  They can't let them get supplies into the boarder area and or to get out of Lebanon if they intend to destroy them.  They have to keep them fenced in.  That's why they took out the airport.  But this is just one person's opinion and interpretation--mine.

On my point earlier about bias in the media here, CNN is my least favorite.  I read on their little explanation of Hezbollah that it is nothing more than a few hundred militants and a few thousand supporters.  That's obviously bogus.  Hezbollah has become powerful like you say because no one has stepped in to cut them off.  They have a backing in the government of Iran and Syria although Syria claims they don't support them militarily.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: jballer on July 14, 2006, 12:28:15 AM
Come on Trollik, I agree with what most of what your saying but how were the Lebanese supposed to kick Hezbollah out? You have to realize how fractured their society is.  That goes back from their creation as a state.  Lebanon was created by the French as a protective enclave for Christians.  Their whole Consociational government got messed up because of changing demographics and civil war broke out.  They JUST kicked Syria out with the help of the international community.  They were trying to kick Hezbollah out as well...there has been movements.  Trust me, Hezbollah are not Lebanese.  They don't give a sh*t about Lebanese.  Lebanon is a proud country with a rich history.  Their flag is all over their country.  In Hezbollah controlled areas, that stupid yellow flag with a gun on it is spread out everywhere.  They don't like Lebanon because it is pro-west and because they are secular.  Lebanon needed help kicking Hezbollah out...they didn't get it and so Israel took action into their own hands.  I don't hate them for it but they should exercise a lot of restraint and I believe they have been doing a relatively decent job so far despite my disagreements with bombing the airport and the roads.  (this only hurts Lebanese tourism which hurts Lebanon which hurts Israel..see other posts). 

AJ I agree that they tried to fence Hezbollah in.  But at the same time, they did it to piss off Lebanon as a way of saying you should have gotten rid of them.  Now we're holding you responsible. I understand their rationale, I just disagree with it. 

And CNN isn't the best news source but its not horrible.  All the American stations are really sketch about Middle East coverage.  In my opinion, they are slightly biased towards Israel because one the Jewish population in America and their class status and two because America is more likely to empathize with Israel in this and most circumstances. (I don't want to have a debate about this because I know it could easily turn into that). I mean America in general isn't really cognizant about what has really been happening in Lebanon in the first place.  It has been an a tumultous couple of years since Hariri's assassination, yet the Lebanese people have perserved...until now.  That is why so many people are mad at Israel and mad at Hezbollah. 

By the way, another piece of evidence that shows Lebanon and its people are pawns of HEzbollah and Iran....Iran said they will attack Israel if Israel attacks Syria... I wonder why Lebanon was not afforded such protection? Because they don't give a crap about Lebanon because Iran and Lebanon have about as different ideologies and governments between any two Middle Eastern states. 
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: jballer on July 14, 2006, 12:39:15 AM
By the way, an interesting article that somewhat gives credibility to my whole tourist argument. 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060713/wl_mideast_afp/mideastunrestlebanon;_ylt=Am4wBsbpPpAhmFweCShikzes0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

People will get pissed...and if Hezbollah is able to...they will manipulate that anger towards Israel.  Something that neither Israel nor Lebanon want. 

Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: @#$%, Fire, and Damnation. on July 14, 2006, 12:39:48 AM


By the way, another piece of evidence that shows Lebanon and its people are pawns of HEzbollah and Iran....Iran said they will attack Israel if Israel attacks Syria... I wonder why Lebanon was not afforded such protection? Because they don't give a crap about Lebanon because Iran and Lebanon have about as different ideologies and governments between any two Middle Eastern states. 

Exactly.  Of course Iran is going to speak up and tell Israel not to attack Syria.  The ideology of Iran is shared by Hezbollah and Syria--not Lebanon.  Hezbollah is the leach or the snake in the back yard.  They're like a syringe used to pump ideologies of religious intolerance and war into Lebanon.  Iran wants that element in place.  It can't step into Lebanon and defend Hezbollah but it can give these bold warnings like it has been to Israel.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: jballer on July 14, 2006, 12:52:49 AM
You're 100% right AJ.  Hezbollah is exactly a snake in the grass...well put.  But Israel surely knows this.  Their attacks on Lebanon was more of revenge and a message I think (in addition to trying to fence Hezbollah/the captured soldiers troops in).  I guess the next few days will provide an answer.  If they continue bombing Lebanon and push so hard that the Lebanese Army gets involved (so far they have only used anti-aircrat weapons against Israeli jets), then they will be not solving the real problem which is Syria and Iran (more Iran than Syria). Everyone says they will continue hitting Lebanon hard, but I feel (although it may be wishful thinking) that the attacks will subside.  I hope Israel does the right thing and that the international community will solve this problem without more people dying.  There is no party that is without blame in this situation...Hezbollah, Syria, Iran, the Palestinians, Lebanon and yes Israel and the US as well.  Varying degrees of blame yes, but there are a whole lot of things we haven't discussed that led to this conflict.  You cannot simply view the situation starting from what happened in Gaza or at the Lebanese Israeli border.  You have to view everything within the context of everything else if you are truly to understand what each side is feeling and thinking.  All right too much rambling from me...good night and it has been a pleasure to debate/discuss with you two. I pray to the Lord for peace and I hope you do as well. 
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: @#$%, Fire, and Damnation. on July 14, 2006, 01:08:49 AM
All right too much rambling from me...good night and it has been a pleasure to debate/discuss with you two. I pray to the Lord for peace and I hope you do as well. 

Yes.  Glad to hear this.  Its rare on this board to ever hear anyone invoke the name of the Lord.

"snake in the back yard" ha...I'm tired at this point too.

I appreciate your input and your willingness to discuss.  You have obviously lived through this for years and you have a perspective I certainly couldn't have brought to this discussion.  I'll be watching events as they unfold as well and hoping Israeli troops get a hold on the offending element quickly...the most immediate part of it anyway.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Julie Fern on July 14, 2006, 03:47:20 AM
but, it also important to note that you moron.  lord told julie so.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: tobias on July 14, 2006, 04:46:26 AM
I'm in Israel and because of the tension have been following all the news outlets I can. I haven't noticed a significant difference in coverage between the american news sources and the Israeli (hebrew and english), factually. Of course different sources are going to spin things differently, use different terminology that is bound to offend someone, but the news is pretty much equal and equally bad all around. Sure Haaretz and the JPost spin things differently, particularly in the editorials (although they have come closer together in recent years), but the news itself is largely the same. And also while the JPost is english only, the english Haaretz is mostly just translation.

Anyway. It's now being reported that Hezbollah likely has a limited number of rockets that could reach as far south as Beersheva (The negev is already dealing with the kassams (and the kassam strikes are becoming increasingly pernicious)).That includes the bulk of the population, including Jerusalem and Tel Aviv; God willing our worst fears will not be realized, and that IDF actions in Lebanon will brief and effective in dealing with the barrage on the second front. Such a strike would up the ante significantly, far more so than the rocket that landed in Haifa last night. Although the government expressed surprise, it has been known for a while that Haifa could potentially be in range. Such a development would make a ground offensive almost inevitable, and Israel could be back in the position it was throughout the 80s and 90s, a position that involved a lot of bloodshed but also a great deal of internal strife within the population here. I'm praying that this painful chapter will be very brief, and that the casualties on both sides will be limited. The possibility of opening a third front, necessary or otherwise, is a possibility that is almost horrifying to entertain.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Skeptic on July 14, 2006, 10:45:01 AM
a large majority in lebanon support hizbullah considering they are seen as the reason for why israel left southern lebanon in 2000.  Besides this, lebanese govt and a majority of lebanese people also support hizbullah for the reason that they are militarily stronger than the lebanese military itself.  so really hiz is a big part of lebanon...im sure many lebanese people wouldn't want them to leave..they have accomplished things lebanon alone couldn't
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: jballer on July 14, 2006, 12:23:19 PM
Trust me Skeptic, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. 

They are seen as causing Israel to leave but since Israel left, and since Syria withdrew, there has been a large movement for them to leave. 

The fact that they are stronger than the Lebanese Army does not mean people support them...it just means they are powerless to stop them. 

Their main base of support is the Shiia (because they are pretty much their only real representation in Parliament + the social services they provide) and the Palestinian refugees. 

If you knew anything about Lebanese history, you would realize that many people were afraid that taking out Hezbollah would trigger a Lebanese civil war.  And since Lebanon was crippled during their 16 year civil war that devastated the country and led to at least 5 foreign occupiers, they didn't do so and were hoping to disarm them through national reconciliation but that hadn't happened yet. 

Please stop speaking out of your a$$ when you clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. 
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Skeptic on July 14, 2006, 01:38:04 PM
Trust me Skeptic, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. 

They are seen as causing Israel to leave but since Israel left, and since Syria withdrew, there has been a large movement for them to leave. 

The fact that they are stronger than the Lebanese Army does not mean people support them...it just means they are powerless to stop them. 

Their main base of support is the Shiia (because they are pretty much their only real representation in Parliament + the social services they provide) and the Palestinian refugees. 

If you knew anything about Lebanese history, you would realize that many people were afraid that taking out Hezbollah would trigger a Lebanese civil war.  And since Lebanon was crippled during their 16 year civil war that devastated the country and led to at least 5 foreign occupiers, they didn't do so and were hoping to disarm them through national reconciliation but that hadn't happened yet. 

Please stop speaking out of your a$$ when you clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. 


believe me i know what im talking about.  im muslim (sunni)lebanese from one of the cities they are currerntly bombing.  i know what i am saying because this is exactly what i hear from all my friends and family that currently live in lebanon..both shiaa and sunni and even some christians i know in los angeles.  the current president of lebanon is a major backer of hizbullah, along with several other prominent lebanese leaders...

i wont resort to the same sort of insults you've resorted to, it's childish
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: jballer on July 14, 2006, 02:17:20 PM
Again, you have no idea what you're talking about. The president of Lebanon is a puppet of Syria...if you don't know that then figure out why everyone is trying to get rid of him. 

Of course some people support Hezbollah but a majority of Lebanese do not. And if you count Lebanese expatriots, it becomes a huge majority of people who are against Hezbollah.  Yeah the Shiia do like I have said.  Unfortunately, Israel's use of force is only swaying more people to Hezbollah's side because people are growing to hate Israel for using too much force. 

I'm sure you know people who support Hezbollah. Again, especially now since the Israelis are killing Lebanese civilians.  Ask if they supported Hezbollah before this conflict...that is where you shall find your answer.  

If the government supported Hezbollah...think about it...they would join the battle against Israel.  Instead they have distanced themselves from it. Hopefully, Israel won't strike hard enough to force them into it.   

Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Skeptic on July 14, 2006, 02:37:08 PM
Again, you have no idea what you're talking about. The president of Lebanon is a puppet of Syria...if you don't know that then figure out why everyone is trying to get rid of him. 

Of course some people support Hezbollah but a majority of Lebanese do not.

Actually a majority do.  though many don't

And if you count Lebanese expatriots, it becomes a huge majority of people who are against Hezbollah.  Yeah the Shiia do like I have said.  Unfortunately, Israel's use of force is only swaying more people to Hezbollah's side because people are growing to hate Israel for using too much force. 

I'm sure you know people who support Hezbollah. Again, especially now since the Israelis are killing Lebanese civilians.  Ask if they supported Hezbollah before this conflict...that is where you shall find your answer.  

The people i know do not see hizbullah as a terrorist group--they've supported them for all the things they have done for the lebanese people then, and yet they still support them today and probably even tomorrow.  A lot of people, like myself, are furious over what they did.  Howeever, that goes to say that what they did should not have resulted in the brutal and barbaric response we are seeing on the news from israel.

If the government supported Hezbollah...think about it...they would join the battle against Israel.  Instead they have distanced themselves from it. Hopefully, Israel won't strike hard enough to force them into it.   

Like i said, a good number of people in the govt support hizbullah.  the lebanese army really has very little power to do anything.  people laugh when one suggests that the lebanese army do something.


 just so you know, i don't support hizbullah nor israel nor any military organization that cannot deal with the situation in a diplomatic fashion

Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Julie Fern on July 15, 2006, 02:53:56 AM
sigh.  not all you folks able act like christians?
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 15, 2006, 10:45:54 PM
Hmmm... I'm not going to read many of your pointless arguments.

Here's mine:

No matter whether or not the Lebanese people like what Israel is doing, it doesn't matter at all. The opinions of the Lebanese people: the Shiia, Sunnis and Christians, does not influence Israelís military planning.

Israel has yet to show its true power, and I'm sure that Lebanon and Syria does not want to see it. Why take such a massive gamble like this?

That is the problem with the Arabs in that region, they forget all too quickly. Have they all forgotten Israel's history of military victories in very similar cases? Do all these Arabs think that a few years of relative inactivity has weakened the Israeli military?

It was a very serious mistake on Hezbollah's part; everyone has made a significant miscalculation of Israelís military might. If this goes on, mark my words, the world will be shocked when they see Israelís military fury.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Skeptic on July 16, 2006, 10:28:38 AM
Hmmm... I'm not going to read many of your pointless arguments.

Here's mine:

No matter whether or not the Lebanese people like what Israel is doing, it doesn't matter at all. The opinions of the Lebanese people: the Shiia, Sunnis and Christians, does not influence Israelís military planning.

Israel has yet to show its true power, and I'm sure that Lebanon and Syria does not want to see it. Why take such a massive gamble like this?

That is the problem with the Arabs in that region, they forget all too quickly. Have they all forgotten Israel's history of military victories in very similar cases? Do all these Arabs think that a few years of relative inactivity has weakened the Israeli military?

It was a very serious mistake on Hezbollah's part; everyone has made a significant miscalculation of Israelís military might. If this goes on, mark my words, the world will be shocked when they see Israelís military fury.


You mean America's  ;).....israel is a proxy of the U.S.   
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Miss P on July 16, 2006, 10:49:59 AM
Israel has yet to show its true power, and I'm sure that Lebanon and Syria does not want to see it. Why take such a massive gamble like this?

Huh. What, exactly, is Lebanon's gamble?  Not Syria's, not Iran's, not Hezbollah's, but Lebanon's.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 16, 2006, 11:14:42 AM
Israel is a proxy of the United States in some ways. When it comes to this current situation, it was carried out by their free will with probably no real consultation with the United States.

I don't see the point of you saying that they are a proxy, as if it strengthens your argument. I love that they are a proxy.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Skeptic on July 16, 2006, 11:15:51 AM
Israel is a proxy of the United States in some ways. When it comes to this current situation, it was carried out by their free will with probably no real consultation with the United States.

I don't see the point of you saying that they are a proxy, as if it strengthens your argument. I love that they are a proxy.


i am refuting your claim about israel's strength...it's not their strength, it's U.S. strength, get it?
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 16, 2006, 11:16:19 AM
Miss P - making no effort to curb Hezbullah's activities and thinking it would just go under the radar is a massive gamble. It's a gamble that has cost Lebanon many lives, airports, highways and navigation of the seas.

Good game Lebanon.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Skeptic on July 16, 2006, 11:17:13 AM
In the long run, Israel is only hurting themselves.  haven't they learned from history?
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 16, 2006, 11:21:24 AM
Skeptic, lol You should go climb back into your hole. You're not doing yourself any good by coming out of it.

1948 War of Independence, the Israelis were very well equipped lol
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 16, 2006, 11:22:03 AM
Haven't they learned from history? The Israelis? Didn't they win every war they fought?

Uhmmm.. yeah.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Skeptic on July 16, 2006, 11:33:10 AM
well they established israel through substantial support from the international community.  what support does it h ave for its disproportionate strikes in lebanon?  American support?
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Skeptic on July 16, 2006, 11:39:07 AM
Just like Iraq and the u.s., this will also be disasterious for israel if they don't stop
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 16, 2006, 11:46:31 AM
American support, German, Australian...
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 16, 2006, 11:47:54 AM
Just like Iraq and the u.s., this will also be disasterious for israel if they don't stop
Really? Someone likes to assume.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 16, 2006, 11:48:30 AM
Skeptic - really man, you aren't doing too well in this thread.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Skeptic on July 16, 2006, 11:48:59 AM
Just like Iraq and the u.s., this will also be disasterious for israel if they don't stop
Really? Someone likes to assume.


just giving my prediction
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Skeptic on July 16, 2006, 11:49:49 AM
American support, German, Australian...


condemning hizbullah kidnapping does not add up to support of israeli military action, lol
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 16, 2006, 11:59:41 AM
Oh really? "Israel has a right to defend itself."

With nothing really negative to say about the campaign?
"Just make sure you don't topple the Lebanese government."

Yeah that really means they hate the Israeli military campaign.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 16, 2006, 12:00:23 PM
It's simply lip service. They love the Israeli military strikes. There are many Lebanese people that are loving it. Israel is slowly removing the Syrian weeds from the Lebanese garden, and many Lebanese approve.

When was the last time you spoke to a Lebanese individual? I have, and he supports it.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 16, 2006, 12:02:22 PM
You're just giving a prediction? A baseless, unsupported guess really.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Skeptic on July 16, 2006, 12:03:39 PM
It's simply lip service. They love the Israeli military strikes. There are many Lebanese people that are loving it.


Oh i'm sure they are just loving their city get destroyed, lol.  There are some that want hizbullah out, but that doesn't go as far as saying they love getting bombed. lol.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Skeptic on July 16, 2006, 12:04:13 PM
Oh really? "Israel has a right to defend itself."

With nothing really negative to say about the campaign?
"Just make sure you don't topple the Lebanese government."

Yeah that really means they hate the Israeli military campaign.

source?


edit: i know bush has said this, but i wanna see some support for this from other countries, such germany, like u said
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Skeptic on July 16, 2006, 12:05:53 PM
I AM A LEBANESE INDIVIDUAL, LOL. I'VE SPOKEN TO MANY PEOPLE THERE, CHRISTIANS, MUSLIMS ALIKE
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Skeptic on July 16, 2006, 12:36:04 PM
I AM A LEBANESE INDIVIDUAL, LOL. I'VE SPOKEN TO MANY PEOPLE THERE, CHRISTIANS, MUSLIMS ALIKE

you, sir, are the enemy.  Lebanese Christians don't have dead Israelis as their primary goal.

if adovocating diplomacy constitutes me as being an enemy, then i am more than happy to be so
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 16, 2006, 11:15:24 PM
Here you go - now run off and go protect Hezbollah.

"Mr Beazley said he believed Israel had an "absolute right" to defend itself against rocket attacks from terrorist organisations such as Hezbollah, and dismissed claims it was over-retaliating." - Federal Opposition Leader Kim Beazley, Australia

"Much as I deplore the violence ... one has to understand Israel's position, Israel has the right of self-defence," he said. (Prime Minister John Howard) http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200607/s1687707.htm

"We demand first that the Israeli soldiers be returned to Israel healthy, that the attacks on Israel cease, and then naturally for Israel to halt military action," she told reporters. (German Chancellor Angela Merkel) http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2198498
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Skeptic on July 16, 2006, 11:32:23 PM
Here you go - now run off and go protect Hezbollah.

"Mr Beazley said he believed Israel had an "absolute right" to defend itself against rocket attacks from terrorist organisations such as Hezbollah, and dismissed claims it was over-retaliating." - Federal Opposition Leader Kim Beazley, Australia

"Much as I deplore the violence ... one has to understand Israel's position, Israel has the right of self-defence," he said. (Prime Minister John Howard) http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200607/s1687707.htm

"We demand first that the Israeli soldiers be returned to Israel healthy, that the attacks on Israel cease, and then naturally for Israel to halt military action," she told reporters. (German Chancellor Angela Merkel) http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2198498


well done.  I'd support hizbullah before i'd ever support a cancerous disease such as israel.  Notice how i use my words.  I don't support neither organizations considering i dont believe violence will bring a solution to this conflict.  Why don't you put your hatred into something more productive, ever think of that?
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 17, 2006, 02:11:08 PM
Cancerous disease like Israel? lol

You want to be a lawyer?

You've been proven wrong, so now you resort to calling Israel a disease.

You know who you sound just like? The terrorists. Go @#!* yourself.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Skeptic on July 17, 2006, 02:18:06 PM
Hey i am not the one preaching violence---and you're calling me a terrorist? lol.  Being anti-israel doesn't make me anti-semetic.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: @#$%, Fire, and Damnation. on July 17, 2006, 02:18:31 PM
Cancerous disease like Israel? lol

You want to be a lawyer?

You've been proven wrong, so now you resort to calling Israel a disease.

You know who you sound just like? The terrorists. Go @#!* yourself.

No you misunderstood him.  He "don't support neither organizations" because he don't believe in no violence.   Therefor he supports both Hizbullah and Israel.  See?

hth
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Skeptic on July 17, 2006, 02:26:33 PM
Cancerous disease like Israel? lol

You want to be a lawyer?

You've been proven wrong, so now you resort to calling Israel a disease.

You know who you sound just like? The terrorists. Go @#!* yourself.

No you misunderstood him.  He "don't support neither organizations" because he don't believe in no violence.   Therefor he supports both Hizbullah and Israel.  See?

hth


What? No name calling from you?
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Skeptic on July 17, 2006, 02:27:45 PM
i laugh at all your posts..my country has been destroyed to pieces and you GUYS are the ones really pissed off. go figure
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 17, 2006, 02:37:37 PM
A.J., no you are misunderstood.

"I'd support hizbullah before i'd ever support a cancerous disease such as israel."
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: mason123 on July 17, 2006, 02:38:28 PM
Uhmmm... we're pissed off, because our country is being attacked by an illegal army that your country was supposed to disarm, that's why we're pissed off you moron.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: @#$%, Fire, and Damnation. on July 17, 2006, 02:39:22 PM
A.J., no you are misunderstood.

"I'd support hizbullah before i'd ever support a cancerous disease such as israel."

You're correct.  I am misunderstood because I was making a joke.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: jballer on July 17, 2006, 03:10:54 PM
Whoa whoa whoa...you guys leave the other thread because you're afraid of Miss P and myself? Haha jk.

I'd like to give out the Lebanese public opinion on this issue.  This is probably the most diverse country in regards to politics and religion, and its population is only 3.8 million.  While some people support Hezbollah, a majority of people obviously don't.  However, that does not mean they all agree on what course of action to take against Hezbollah.  Some do in fact support the Israeli bombing.  I know that a majority of my family does as Lebanese Christians.  However, a lot of people are getting fed up with the incessant bombing attacks that often do not fall on Hezbollah.  So many people are against Hezbollah, but don't appreciate the strong use of force Israel is doing. 

Why don't you guys bring back your discussion to the other thread so the discussion can be bigger and so no one gets away with talking out of their A$$  :)
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: @#$%, Fire, and Damnation. on July 17, 2006, 03:18:53 PM
We understand how right you believe you are j, but try not to get such a big head about it.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: jballer on July 17, 2006, 03:26:30 PM
Oh I'm sorry, I thought I knew more about Lebanese people than you did.  I don't know why i thought that!
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: @#$%, Fire, and Damnation. on July 17, 2006, 03:29:04 PM
Well now you're losing it, j.  This issue is about a whole lot more than what you know about the Lebanese.  You're slipping fast.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: jballer on July 17, 2006, 03:30:33 PM
Yeah I don't mean the entire issue AJ.

I was referring to the part when you guys were talking to Skeptic about Lebanese public opinion on this issue. 

Obviously me knowing about Lebanese people doesn't really have to do with the conflict too much. 

But me knowing about the people does have a lot to do with how they are viewing what is going on in Lebanon.  I think they view it a lot differently than someone who isn't really involved in it.  I'm just bringing that information to the discussion. 
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: @#$%, Fire, and Damnation. on July 17, 2006, 03:31:45 PM
ah.  I had no participation in that discussion.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: jballer on July 17, 2006, 03:33:29 PM
Exactly.  I'll take that as an apology. 
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: ! B L U E WAR R I O R..! on July 18, 2006, 05:48:12 PM
israels and palestinians are brothers and sisters who can't get along...arabs and jews are both semetic peoples...they are related...they are both of the same human race...yet they seem to forget this.

however...the terrorists must be taken to task...and the palestinians must realize that the "crescenting guerrillas" in their midst must be lit up...or else blocks and blocks of palestinians will die...

palestinians must hate the "crescenting guerrillas" more than their israeli relatives...and it seems that force and strength is all that will wake them up from their night-terrors of hate.... :'(






now it is happening...crescenting guerrillas will be decimated...the sovereignty of the jurisconsult will not happen at all now...never. hezb-allah guerrillas will have no stomach to begin again...and unfortunately these people only bend to force and strength...here it is.

perhaps lebanon should have put the women in power.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: ! B L U E WAR R I O R..! on July 18, 2006, 10:15:31 PM
good jobs outing the apologist and leftist anti-Semite guys!  :)

is the anti-semite focusing on arabs or jews?
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: ! B L U E WAR R I O R..! on July 23, 2006, 12:01:50 PM
israel will not stop until weapons and guerrillas decimated...mark my words...

2 soldiers...
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: ! B L U E WAR R I O R..! on July 27, 2006, 07:06:57 AM
buffer zone...this is why bush administration has patience...let israelis finish job.
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: Julie Fern on July 27, 2006, 07:12:41 AM
let's all cheer for killing!  hoooooooray!
Title: Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
Post by: wannaB1L on August 17, 2006, 10:33:27 PM
Israel's recent attacks on civilian infrastructure, which have led to a humanitarian crisis, are not justifiable under the circumstances of the conflict. Does the kidnapping (not murder) of two soldiers, plus the firing of a few rockets justify the deaths of over 100 Palestinian and Lebanese civilians? Does it justify the kidnapping of Palestinian foreign ministers, the destruction of government buildings in Palestine, the demolition of civilian bridges? Does it justify the bombing of a TV station and an international civilian airport in Lebanon?

Leaders from all over the world have denounced Israel's disproportionate use of force. The only country that has not done so is the United States -- no surprise there.



few rockets huh, well I just saw a bucket worth of water when I was at the beach today. Crazy.