Law School Discussion

Specific Groups => Minority and Non-Traditional Law Students => Topic started by: joespecial on May 16, 2006, 09:39:24 PM

Title: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: joespecial on May 16, 2006, 09:39:24 PM
With the publication of Mary Cheney's new book (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/141652049X/qid=1147837391/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-8956164-3564631?s=books&v=glance&n=283155), this thread is sorely needed.

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/141652049X.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_V54572658_.jpg)

Ask away!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: caligal on May 16, 2006, 09:41:38 PM
I don't have a question but a comment -- glad to see another one is going to Davis!!  Welcome!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: caligal on May 16, 2006, 09:43:07 PM
by the way..did you read her book?  i just can't bring myself to throw money her way.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: caligal on May 16, 2006, 09:43:40 PM
why yes I am!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: caligal on May 16, 2006, 09:48:55 PM
exactly how I feel...I saw part of her interview with Diane Sawyer and she was so dodgey.  I wouldnt help my parents do a single thing if they publicly campaigned against my rights.  Maybe I will get it from the library someday but I will not be purchasing it.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: eli250 on May 16, 2006, 09:55:47 PM
What do you think of the Gay Pride parades? I live in the gay section of Atlanta and see the parade every year.  If I were a moderate I would be much more likely to vote for the referendum to ban gay marriage after seeing the parade last year.  Shameful.  Can't y'all f### in privacy.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: caligal on May 16, 2006, 10:00:36 PM
you mean like the straight folks at mardi gras??
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: eli250 on May 16, 2006, 10:07:11 PM
you mean like the straight folks at mardi gras??

I've never been to Mardi Gras, but I assume you make an excellent point.  However, straight folks aren't trying to convince people to recognize their rights.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: caligal on May 16, 2006, 10:10:43 PM
cause they dont have to.

and a few folks out of control at gay pride are not representative of all of us.  i have gone and managed to not f*&% anyone in public.  just as the few folks at mardi gras who engage in flashing, public sex, and sex with animals aren't representative of all straight folks
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: HK on May 16, 2006, 10:15:07 PM
cause they dont have to.

and a few folks out of control at gay pride are not representative of all of us.  i have gone and managed to not f*&% anyone in public.  just as the few folks at mardi gras who engage in flashing, public sex, and sex with animals aren't representative of all straight folks

Exactly....I have never been to a pride parade...but they haven't revoked my gay license...
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: eli250 on May 16, 2006, 10:16:04 PM
cause they dont have to.

and a few folks out of control at gay pride are not representative of all of us.  i have gone and managed to not f*&% anyone in public.  just as the few folks at mardi gras who engage in flashing, public sex, and sex with animals aren't representative of all straight folks

According to most people the people at Mardi Gras don't represent straight folks.  However, at pride...
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: HK on May 16, 2006, 10:18:30 PM
and a few folks out of control at gay pride are not representative of all of us. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: eli250 on May 16, 2006, 10:20:30 PM
But straight people, especially conservative ones, will take any opportunity to look down on gay people.  Pride gives them that chance. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: caligal on May 16, 2006, 10:26:04 PM
people who wish to judge and look down on others, people who wish to waste their time and energy on hate mongering will find an excuse anywhere...they dont have to even look that hard.  i dont have time for those arguments.  People who want to hate based on race point out the bad behavior of a few to condemn the whole for example...it doesnt make their arguments right.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: eli250 on May 16, 2006, 10:33:02 PM
people who wish to judge and look down on others, people who wish to waste their time and energy on hate mongering will find an excuse anywhere...they dont have to even look that hard.  i dont have time for those arguments.  People who want to hate based on race point out the bad behavior of a few to condemn the whole for example...it doesnt make their arguments right.

You are completely right.

However, I saw the rhetoric the religious right spewed during the 2004 election in Georgia.  They took every opportunity to bash gay people when they introduced a referendum to deny gay marriage.  They showed pictures from the pride parade, and it made an impact. 


I am completely supportive of gay rights, but I see pride as an opportunity for conservatives to go back to their congregations with evidence of how terrible gay people are. 

Gay people are like us and reasonable people understand this.  But we still need to convince the fundamentalists.  we aren't doing a very good job at that.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: caligal on May 16, 2006, 10:39:42 PM
I agree...but cancelling gay pride will not do that.  The gay rights groups that exist have a few problems as I see it...1. money, pure and simple the conservative, religious right has millions and millions more than any gay rights group or even all of them combined.  2. we arent framing the issues right but we are learning;

when campaigns are run pointing out the problems with the inequities such as lost property when a loved one dies, the barring of gay partners from hospitals, the lack of basic tax rights and responsibilities, etc.  it resonates more.  People understand things on these levels.  In states that have fought anti-gay referendums and won, it can all be credited back to their framing of our issues.  it isnt about marriage as the religious institution that most straight people view it as...it is about the rights and responsibilities our government confers upon people who can legally marry. 

We need more money, more straight allies, and better framing of the issues.  As a general rule, the left isnt too good at framing and that is why the conservatives keep whupping our butts in elections. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: eli250 on May 16, 2006, 10:48:39 PM
In order for gay people to win the heart of middle America, they must be seen, not simply as outsiders, but as victims.

 Y'all are victims of persecution and have been for many years.  However, Pride parades make you look like you are trying to take over america and turn all of the fine christian males into homos.

Trust me, I am on your side, I am just trying to be the devil's advocate and am being blunt about it.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: caligal on May 16, 2006, 11:06:07 PM
That is fine..every advocate needs a devil on the other side. ;)

I appreciate your support but hope that if you ever engage in this discussion with conservatives you do not echo their sentiments but rather challenge them on their thinking.  We need more straight allies.

As an aside, if you think of gay pride as the ONE DAY a year homosexuals can feel comfortable in a particular city with showing any sort of public affection -- holding hands, kissing, touching a partner's arm or shoulder in affection, etc. you may understand it a bit better.  Straight people can do it everyday without thinking twice, without looking over their shoulder or questioning what neighborhood they are in.  Maybe homosexuals are like kids in a candy store with a $20 bill and no parental supervision!!!  Our one moment, one day a year of true and public freedom...no wonder some of us get a little crazy!! ;)

I would love to continue the dicussion at a later time but I must admit it is off to bed with me now!  Feel free to post back, I will surely be back on tomorrow since I can't seem to stay away. In the meantime, maybe others will weigh in.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: odaiko on May 16, 2006, 11:11:32 PM
I'll happily join the conversation by pointing out eli250's original post (emphasis added)...

What do you think of the Gay Pride parades? I live in the gay section of Atlanta and see the parade every year.  If I were a moderate I would be much more likely to vote for the referendum to ban gay marriage after seeing the parade last year.  Shameful.  Can't y'all f### in privacy.

If you think Gay Pride parades are "shameful", then you're not being the devil's advocate and you're definitely not on my side.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 17, 2006, 06:48:57 AM
whats up with the lisp?  almost every guy ive ever met that had a lisp was gay...
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: redemption on May 17, 2006, 07:00:37 AM
That kind of explicit behavior at pride parages gets people accustomed to the fact of gay sexuality. It's the step beyond people being accustmed to gay people. Is it jarring? Sure. It's a good thing, though, in the long run.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 17, 2006, 08:17:10 AM
I am curious to read the book, but I am not spending money on someone who works to get Cheney-Bush elected. How can a self-respecting (and she does appear to be self-respecting) lesbian do that?

I'm really curious what the lesbians are saying about Mary Cheney. I think we need an Ask a Lesbian thread...

you know, i was just reading an article about the book last night.  i was thinking the exact same thing that i wanted to read it, but i also refuse to pay money to support a person who was invisible while conservative election politics regarding gay marriage went on, whose father's boss is one of the most ardent supporters of a constitutional amendment, and the party her father represents, in general, has done everything in its power to restrict gay rights.  just from reading a short review, it sounds like she spends 2 chapters just ripping on sen. kerry and edwards, proclaiming them to be evil.  apparently she was very mad that they called her out as a lesbian.  as if the "l word" is some epithat. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: incognito on May 17, 2006, 08:29:30 AM
I am curious to read the book, but I am not spending money on someone who works to get Cheney-Bush elected. How can a self-respecting (and she does appear to be self-respecting) lesbian do that?

I'm really curious what the lesbians are saying about Mary Cheney. I think we need an Ask a Lesbian thread...

you know, i was just reading an article about the book last night.  i was thinking the exact same thing that i wanted to read it, but i also refuse to pay money to support a person who was invisible while conservative election politics regarding gay marriage went on, whose father's boss is one of the most ardent supporders of a constitutional amendment, and the party her father represents, in general, has done everything in its power to restrict gay rights.  just from reading a short review, it sounds like she spends 2 chapters just ripping on sen. kerry and edwards, proclaiming them to be evil.  apparently she was very mad that they called her out as a lesbian.  as if the "l word" is some epithat. 

I can't believe I'm defending her, but I don't know if we should blame the child for the sins (hahaha) of the parent.  She did work for them but she and her father steadfastly opposed anti-gay marriage amendments and supported leaving the decision up to the states.  Even bush stated his opposition to using gay people as a wedge issue (in the secret tapes made where he admitted to past drug use), and his wife just came out this week against it as well.  I know that I do not agree with my parents on everything but that i support them, and when push comes to shove I will give them the benefit of the doubt and support them.  And lest we forget, Kerry did not support gay marriage either.  In fact his position was the same as male private part Cheney/Mary Cheney.  I'm gay and our civil rights issues are important to me, but other issues are also important to me.  She made a different decision than most of us, but before we tar and feather her we should at least listen to what she has to say.  Heck if we blamed children for their parents' boss's faults, then no one would be without black marks on their record.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 17, 2006, 08:35:58 AM
I can't believe I'm defending her, but I don't know if we should blame the child for the sins (hahaha) of the parent.  She did work for them but she and her father steadfastly opposed anti-gay marriage amendments and supported leaving the decision up to the states.  Even bush stated his opposition to using gay people as a wedge issue (in the secret tapes made where he admitted to past drug use), and his wife just came out this week against it as well.  I know that I do not agree with my parents on everything but that i support them, and when push comes to shove I will give them the benefit of the doubt and support them.  And lest we forget, Kerry did not support gay marriage either.  In fact his position was the same as male private part Cheney/Mary Cheney.  I'm gay and our civil rights issues are important to me, but other issues are also important to me.  She made a different decision than most of us, but before we tar and feather her we should at least listen to what she has to say.  Heck if we blamed children for their parents' boss's faults, then no one would be without black marks on their record.

i didn't mean it to sound like i blamed her for her dad's actions or bush's, etc.  i certainly don't.  however, to remain silent during that whole time and not say anything to the contrary?  i have issues with that, regardless of whether it puts her parents in a difficult spot.  let's face it, it WAS a wedge issue in the last election.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: HK on May 17, 2006, 08:46:28 AM
Trogdor, if you want to read it but don't want to pay for it, just wait until it ends up in the library...


I think it's laughable for the Bush administration to claim they aren't using gay rights as a wedge issue. It's no coincidence that the federal marriage amendment keeps coming up during election years...
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 17, 2006, 08:56:11 AM
persoannly, i think the republicans will try and birng out an anti- gay marriage amendment at each state election til its thruout the whole country, just to motivate their base each election.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: H4CS on May 17, 2006, 08:57:47 AM
I think Eli brings up a valid point, and yes, sometimes the gays at Pride (particularly the ones the media choose to put on the air, which tend to be the most outrageous) are embarrassing. But I have long ago come to terms with the fact that you can't control everyone in your particular minority group, nor are they going to all be positive examples. That's just life. If conservatives want to hold it against all gays that a few are dancing naked in public, there are just choosing to use a single example to validate their prejudices and they probably do that every day anyway.

This kind of attitude has always upset me.  There was a time when the gay rights movement fought against the idea of anyone controlling anyone else's sexuality, fought the idea that there was a normal way to express sexuality.  As the members of the movement aged, the cause became more about getting rights than about changing the public's view of sexuality.  As a tactical move, I can support it, but there is no reason to sacrifice one on the alter of the other.  It's time to stop being embarassed and start embracing anyone who has the courage to express him/herself.  You still see this everywhere as activists fight being coopted by the mainstream gay rights movement, but there should be enough room under the umbrella for everyone.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: jiggedyjared on May 17, 2006, 09:07:01 AM
I've got a couple of questions for you, too:

Do gay men/women have a hard time going to the public bathrooms in front of people they are interested in or significant others? 

What % of gay men do anal?  I've heard it's lower than most think, and does that... work for the recipient?

Certain words that also mean homosexual are used as insults towards straight men and even objects.  Are you or others offended when you hear others use "gay" or "fag" as an insult towards straight men?  Like:

"You failed the test?" 
"Yeah, I did."
"Aww, that's gay." 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: HK on May 17, 2006, 09:09:41 AM
I think Eli brings up a valid point, and yes, sometimes the gays at Pride (particularly the ones the media choose to put on the air, which tend to be the most outrageous) are embarrassing. But I have long ago come to terms with the fact that you can't control everyone in your particular minority group, nor are they going to all be positive examples. That's just life. If conservatives want to hold it against all gays that a few are dancing naked in public, there are just choosing to use a single example to validate their prejudices and they probably do that every day anyway.

This kind of attitude has always upset me.  There was a time when the gay rights movement fought against the idea of anyone controlling anyone else's sexuality, fought the idea that there was a normal way to express sexuality.  As the members of the movement aged, the cause became more about getting rights than about changing the public's view of sexuality.  As a tactical move, I can support it, but there is no reason to sacrifice one on the alter of the other.  It's time to stop being embarassed and start embracing anyone who has the courage to express him/herself.  You still see this everywhere as activists fight being coopted by the mainstream gay rights movement, but there should be enough room under the umbrella for everyone.

There should be, but unfortunately it's sometimes easier to get some laws changed than to change everyone's attitudes.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 17, 2006, 09:11:16 AM
This kind of attitude has always upset me.  There was a time when the gay rights movement fought against the idea of anyone controlling anyone else's sexuality, fought the idea that there was a normal way to express sexuality.  As the members of the movement aged, the cause became more about getting rights than about changing the public's view of sexuality.  As a tactical move, I can support it, but there is no reason to sacrifice one on the alter of the other.  It's time to stop being embarassed and start embracing anyone who has the courage to express him/herself.  You still see this everywhere as activists fight being coopted by the mainstream gay rights movement, but there should be enough room under the umbrella for everyone.

i'm actually very torn about this.  on one hand, i see some of the pride events, and i'm absolutely horrified by some of the displays.  on the other hand, i understand the role of "subversive" identity politics in order to make a symbolic point.  overall, i think it's childish to think that to express yourself, you have to dance naked, etc.  cooptation is a point of view...  while obtaining particular rights is very important, it shouldn't be considered the end.  social change requires far more than legal tolerance.  the question is: is there a better way to express yourself while still making a powerful stand of resistance?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: incognito on May 17, 2006, 09:13:24 AM
I can't believe I'm defending her, but I don't know if we should blame the child for the sins (hahaha) of the parent.

I'm not blaming her for D!ck Cheney's sins, I'm blaming her for her own sins. Working as Cheney's campaign manager and trying to get BushCo elected, even while Bush was supporting an anti-gay-marriage constitutional amendment.

Mary Cheney has no defense for her actions. She can spend as many chapters on it as she wants.

I'm not a one-issue voter.  She isn't either.  She and I do not agree on other issues (Iraq war, possibly fiscal policy) but I can see how some issues can trump other issues when deciding which party to support.  Gay rights are not the single most important issue for me.  Do all these people who attack her also attack Kerry for not supporting gay marriage?  No, because you are able to make rational decisions about relative values. 

BTW, Al Gore supports gay marriage.  Go Al!

And can we PLEASE write out male private part Cheney? 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: HK on May 17, 2006, 09:15:12 AM
I've got a couple of questions for you, too:

Do gay men/women have a hard time going to the public bathrooms in front of people they are interested in or significant others? 

This is an interesting question. I think I used to feel uncomfortable with it, but not anymore.

What % of gay men do anal?  I've heard it's lower than most think, and does that... work for the recipient?

I have no statistics to answer your question. I would guess most gay guys have had anal sex. As for the recipient, if they didn't enjoy it they wouldn't do it. It's not just gay people that have anal intercourse...

Certain words that also mean homosexual are used as insults towards straight men and even objects.  Are you or others offended when you hear others use "gay" or "fag" as an insult towards straight men?  Like:

"You failed the test?" 
"Yeah, I did."
"Aww, that's gay." 

I don't like hearing the word fag....and I have to admit I don't like it when people use the word "gay" like you did in that example. I don't find it very offensive, just because I am not easily offended, but I would hope that people would stop using it that way.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: incognito on May 17, 2006, 09:20:59 AM
I've got a couple of questions for you, too:

Do gay men/women have a hard time going to the public bathrooms in front of people they are interested in or significant others? 

This is an interesting question. I think I used to feel uncomfortable with it, but not anymore.

What % of gay men do anal?  I've heard it's lower than most think, and does that... work for the recipient?

I have no statistics to answer your question. I would guess most gay guys have had anal sex. As for the recipient, if they didn't enjoy it they wouldn't do it. It's not just gay people that have anal intercourse...

Certain words that also mean homosexual are used as insults towards straight men and even objects.  Are you or others offended when you hear others use "gay" or "fag" as an insult towards straight men?  Like:

"You failed the test?" 
"Yeah, I did."
"Aww, that's gay." 

I don't like hearing the word fag....and I have to admit I don't like it when people use the word "gay" like you did in that example. I don't find it very offensive, just because I am not easily offended, but I would hope that people would stop using it that way.

I agree with all of this.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: HK on May 17, 2006, 09:22:04 AM
I can't believe I'm defending her, but I don't know if we should blame the child for the sins (hahaha) of the parent.

I'm not blaming her for D!ck Cheney's sins, I'm blaming her for her own sins. Working as Cheney's campaign manager and trying to get BushCo elected, even while Bush was supporting an anti-gay-marriage constitutional amendment.

Mary Cheney has no defense for her actions. She can spend as many chapters on it as she wants.

I'm not a one-issue voter.  She isn't either.  She and I do not agree on other issues (Iraq war, possibly fiscal policy) but I can see how some issues can trump other issues when deciding which party to support.  Gay rights are not the single most important issue for me.  Do all these people who attack her also attack Kerry for not supporting gay marriage?  No, because you are able to make rational decisions about relative values. 

BTW, Al Gore supports gay marriage.  Go Al!

And can we PLEASE write out male private part Cheney? 

I think this is a good post. Basically it is clear that gay marriage/rights is not a priority issue for her.

I agree about Kerry, but Kerry was a flake. However, I do think that"not supporting" and "opposing" are two different things. I think with Kerry in the White House we wouldn't have to worry as much about the President encouraging a federal marriage amendment.

I think the democratic party should stand in favor of gay marriage, even if it hurts them a bit. I would like to see them actually take a stand on some issues rather than simply trying to oppose Bush.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: eli250 on May 17, 2006, 09:31:19 AM
Quote

I think the democratic party should stand in favor of gay marriage, even if it hurts them a bit. I would like to see them actually take a stand on some issues rather than simply trying to oppose Bush.
[/color]

I agree, plus the political tide is turning in favor of gay rights.  Democrats need to firmly be on the right side of this issue in order to gain momentum from it once things really do start to change.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: jiggedyjared on May 17, 2006, 09:40:58 AM
Uggh... it really pisses me off when people talk about political parties changing its mind.  I'm conservative, but I'm definitely not a republican.  I hate the political system we have that encourages the political games that we play.  Politicians say and do what will help them keep their jobs. 
Title: Tremble, hetero swine!
Post by: Miss P on May 17, 2006, 09:54:51 AM
[EDIT: How rude of me to post such a long essay without comment.  I'm excerpting from The Homosexual Manifesto that appeared in the Gay Community News in 1987]

This is outre, madness, a tragic, cruel fantasy, an eruption of inner rage, on how the oppressed desperately dream of being the oppressor.

We shall sodomize your sons, emblems of your feeble masculinity, of you shallow dreams and vulgar lies. We shall seduce them in your schools, in your dormitories, in your gymnasiums, in your locker rooms, in your sports arenas, in your seminaries, in your youth groups, in your movie theater bathrooms, in your army bunkhouses, in your truck stops, in your all-male clubs, in your houses of Congress, wherever men are with men together. Your sons shall become our minions and do our bidding. They will be recast in our image. They will come to crave and adore us. Women, you cry for freedom. You say you are no longer satisfied with men; they make you unhappy. We, connoisseurs of the masculine face, the masculine physique, shall take your men from you then. We will amuse them; we will instruct them; we will embrace them when they weep....

All laws banning homosexual activity will be revoked. Instead, legislation shall be passed which engenders love between men.

All homosexuals must stand together as brothers; we must be united artistically, philosophically, socially, politically, and financially. We will triumph only when we present a common face to the vicious heterosexual enemy....

We shall write poems of the love between men; we shall stage plays in which man openly caresses man; we shall make films about the love between heroic men which will replace the cheap, superficial, sentimental, insipid, juvenile, heterosexual infatuations presently dominating your cinema screens.

We shall sculpt statues of beautiful young men, of bold athletes which will be placed in your parks, your squares, your plazas. The museums of the world will be filled only with paintings of graceful, naked lads.

Our writers and artists will make love between men fashionable and de rigueur, and we will succeed because we are adept at setting styles. We will eliminate heterosexual liaisons through the devices of wit and ridicule, devices which we are skilled in employing.

We will unmask the powerful homosexuals who masquerade as heterosexuals. You will be shocked and frightened when you find that your presidents and their sons, your industrialists, your senators, your mayors, your generals, your athletes, your film stars, your television personalities, your civic leaders, your priests are not the safe, familiar, bourgeois, heterosexual figures you assumed them to be. We are everywhere; we have infiltrated your ranks. Be careful when you speak of homosexuals because we are always among you; we may be sleeping in the same bed with you.

There will be no compromises. We are not middle-class weaklings. Highly intelligent, we are the natural aristocrats of the human race, and steely-minded aristocrats never settle for less. Those who oppose us will be exiled. We shall raise vast, private armies, as Mishima did, to defeat you.

We shall conquer the world because warriors inspired by and banded together by homosexual love and honor are as invincible as were the ancient Greek soldiers. The family unit spawning ground of lies, betrayals, mediocrity, hypocrisy, and violence will be abolished. The family unit, which only dampens imagination and curbs free will, must be eliminated. Perfect boys will be conceived and grown in the genetic laboratory. They will be bonded together in a communal setting, under the control and instruction of homosexual savants.

All churches who condemn us will be closed. Our only gods are handsome young men. We adhere to a cult of beauty, moral and aesthetic. All that is ugly and vulgar and banal will be annihilated. Since we are alienated from middle-class heterosexual conventions, we are free to live our lives according to the dictates of the pure imagination. For us too much is not enough....

We shall be victorious because we are fueled with the ferocious bitterness of the oppressed who have been forced to play seemingly bit parts in your dumb, heterosexual shows throughout the ages. We too are capable of firing guns and manning the barricades of the ultimate revolution. Tremble, hetero swine, when we appear before you without our masks!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: jiggedyjared on May 17, 2006, 10:01:16 AM
good grief.  get a life.
Title: Re: Tremble, hetero swine!
Post by: HK on May 17, 2006, 10:02:18 AM
This is outre, madness, a tragic, cruel fantasy, an eruption of inner rage, on how the oppressed desperately dream of being the oppressor.

We shall sodomize your sons, emblems of your feeble masculinity, of you shallow dreams and vulgar lies. We shall seduce them in your schools, in your dormitories, in your gymnasiums, in your locker rooms, in your sports arenas, in your seminaries, in your youth groups, in your movie theater bathrooms, in your army bunkhouses, in your truck stops, in your all-male clubs, in your houses of Congress, wherever men are with men together. Your sons shall become our minions and do our bidding. They will be recast in our image. They will come to crave and adore us. Women, you cry for freedom. You say you are no longer satisfied with men; they make you unhappy. We, connoisseurs of the masculine face, the masculine physique, shall take your men from you then. We will amuse them; we will instruct them; we will embrace them when they weep.

Women, you say you wish to live with each other instead of with men. Then go and be with each other. We shall give your men pleasures they have never known because we are foremost men too and only man knows how to truly please another man; only one man can understand with depth and feeling the mind and body of another man.

All laws banning homosexual activity will be revoked. Instead, legislation shall be passed which engenders love between men.

All homosexuals must stand together as brothers; we must be united artistically, philosophically, socially, politically, and financially. We will triumph only when we present a common face to the vicious heterosexual enemy.

If you dare to cry faggot, fairy, queer, at us, we will stab you in your cowardly hearts and defile your dead, puny bodies.

We shall write poems of the love between men; we shall stage plays in which man openly caresses man; we shall make films about the love between heroic men which will replace the cheap, superficial, sentimental, insipid, juvenile, heterosexual infatuations presently dominating your cinema screens.

We shall sculpt statues of beautiful young men, of bold athletes which will be placed in your parks, your squares, your plazas. The museums of the world will be filled only with paintings of graceful, naked lads.

Our writers and artists will make love between men fashionable and de rigueur, and we will succeed because we are adept at setting styles. We will eliminate heterosexual liaisons through the devices of wit and ridicule, devices which we are skilled in employing.

We will unmask the powerful homosexuals who masquerade as heterosexuals. You will be shocked and frightened when you find that your presidents and their sons, your industrialists, your senators, your mayors, your generals, your athletes, your film stars, your television personalities, your civic leaders, your priests are not the safe, familiar, bourgeois, heterosexual figures you assumed them to be. We are everywhere; we have infiltrated your ranks. Be careful when you speak of homosexuals because we are always among you; we may be sleeping in the same bed with you.

There will be no compromises. We are not middle-class weaklings. Highly intelligent, we are the natural aristocrats of the human race, and steely-minded aristocrats never settle for less. Those who oppose us will be exiled. We shall raise vast, private armies, as Mishima did, to defeat you.

We shall conquer the world because warriors inspired by and banded together by homosexual love and honor are as invincible as were the ancient Greek soldiers. The family unit spawning ground of lies, betrayals, mediocrity, hypocrisy, and violence will be abolished. The family unit, which only dampens imagination and curbs free will, must be eliminated. Perfect boys will be conceived and grown in the genetic laboratory. They will be bonded together in a communal setting, under the control and instruction of homosexual savants.

All churches who condemn us will be closed. Our only gods are handsome young men. We adhere to a cult of beauty, moral and aesthetic. All that is ugly and vulgar and banal will be annihilated. Since we are alienated from middle-class heterosexual conventions, we are free to live our lives according to the dictates of the pure imagination. For us too much is not enough.

The exquisite society to emerge will be governed by an elite comprised of gay poets. One of the major requirements for a position of power in the new society of homoeroticism will be indulgence in the Greek passion. Any man contaminated with heterosexual lust will be automatically barred from a position of influence. All males who insist on remaining stupidly heterosexual will be tried in homosexual courts of justice and will become invisible men. We shall rewrite history, history filled and debased with your heterosexual lies and distortions.

We shall portray the homosexuality of the great leaders and thinkers who have shaped the world. We will demonstrate that homosexuality and intelligence and imagination are inextricably linked, and that homosexuality is a requirement for true nobility, true beauty in a man.

We shall be victorious because we are fueled with the ferocious bitterness of the oppressed who have been forced to play seemingly bit parts in your dumb, heterosexual shows throughout the ages. We too are capable of firing guns and manning the barricades of the ultimate revolution. Tremble, hetero swine, when we appear before you without our masks!


Sounds great! :) :)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 17, 2006, 10:05:41 AM
good grief.  get a life.

Umm...this is an important document in queer history, jiggedyj.  Get a book.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 17, 2006, 10:11:31 AM
if those seminars that claimed to "cure" gay people worked, would you do it?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: spud1987 on May 17, 2006, 10:20:33 AM
I have a question.  Are you offended by someone supports gay rights (having equal rights as straight people) but at the same time believes homosexuality is immoral? 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 17, 2006, 10:28:08 AM
You probably want Bonkers' answers, not mine, but here goes anyway:

if those seminars that claimed to "cure" gay people worked, would you do it?

No way!  

I have a question.  Are you offended by someone supports gay rights (having equal rights as straight people) but at the same time believes homosexuality is immoral? 

Offended might be the wrong word.  I think I would feel sad for them and worry about queer kids who might grow up in their families.  

I also think that "equal rights" is a rather limited framework for the LGBT rights movement.  Does it include non-discrimination in employment and housing, for instance?  Does it include hate crimes laws (which I do not support, personally, but which have been a huge part of the gay rights agenda)?  Does it include rights to sexual expression, such as buying sex toys or wearing a T-shirt proclaiming one's lesbianism at school?  Being out in the military?  Do you support homosexual sexuality education as part of sex ed.?  These are just a few examples.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 17, 2006, 10:32:08 AM
I have a question.  Are you offended by someone supports gay rights (having equal rights as straight people) but at the same time believes homosexuality is immoral? 

"offended" is an unhelpful word to express any sort of reaction to questions about morality.  i would say "of course" when it's put in such vague terms.  it's highly displeasing.  for one, it assumes that homosexuality is defined simply by one's actions.   of course, almost every gay person will strenuously disagree with that.  there is a much stronger sense of identity than simply sexual pleasure from someone of the same sex.  if a large percentage of the population were to say that your attachments to people of the opposite gender should be protected as part of your freedom, but your actions are evil, how would you feel?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 17, 2006, 10:34:23 AM
I'll take these, too.

Do gay men/women have a hard time going to the public bathrooms in front of people they are interested in or significant others?

In news that will surely disappoint some of you, women don't generally go to the bathroom in front of other women.  And no.

What % of gay men do anal? I've heard it's lower than most think, and does that... work for the recipient?

I can't answer this question.  But I do count myself lucky that a lot of lesbians "do anal."  And it "works" for me.

Certain words that also mean homosexual are used as insults towards straight men and even objects.  Are you or others offended when you hear others use "gay" or "fag" as an insult towards straight men?

I think it is more embarrassing for them than it is offensive to me, but yes.  And it's occasionally funny.

Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: jiggedyjared on May 17, 2006, 10:38:11 AM
Quote
In news that will surely disappoint some of you, women don't generally go to the bathroom in front of other women.  And no.

 ::)
I realize that you're working really hard to try and be funny to other posters, but maybe try harder or something.  Stalls and urinals often adjoin in such a way as to allow for sight and sound transfer.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: redemption on May 17, 2006, 10:42:48 AM
Quote
In news that will surely disappoint some of you, women don't generally go to the bathroom in front of other women.  And no.

 ::)
I realize that you're working really hard to try and be funny to other posters, but maybe try harder or something.  Stalls and urinals often adjoin in such a way as to allow for sight and sound transfer.


Do shut up, will you? I know that you're working really hard to be the resident moron, but that spot's over-subscribed. Putz.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 17, 2006, 10:44:15 AM
I'll take these, too.

Do gay men/women have a hard time going to the public bathrooms in front of people they are interested in or significant others?

In news that will surely disappoint some of you, women don't generally go to the bathroom in front of other women.  And no.

What % of gay men do anal? I've heard it's lower than most think, and does that... work for the recipient?

I can't answer this question.  But I do count myself lucky that a lot of lesbians "do anal."  And it "works" for me.

Certain words that also mean homosexual are used as insults towards straight men and even objects.  Are you or others offended when you hear others use "gay" or "fag" as an insult towards straight men?

I think it is more embarrassing for them than it is offensive to me, but yes.  And it's occasionally funny.



imnot going to try and convert you, butt

"I can't answer this question.  But I do count myself lucky that a lot of lesbians "do anal."  And it "works" for me."

i can def help you  ;)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: spud1987 on May 17, 2006, 10:45:43 AM
if those seminars that claimed to "cure" gay people worked, would you do it?

Good question.  Now, no.  Ten years ago (I'm 28), yes. 

"I have a question.  Are you offended by someone supports gay rights (having equal rights as straight people) but at the same time believes homosexuality is immoral?  "

While I'm glad you support equal rights for gay people (for whatever reason), I doubt we could be friends if you think I'm immoral because I'm gay.

I have many friends who engage in various activities that I don't agree with but their some of my favorite people in the world.  I think people can be friends even though they disagree on certain issues.  
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: spud1987 on May 17, 2006, 10:49:00 AM
I have a question.  Are you offended by someone supports gay rights (having equal rights as straight people) but at the same time believes homosexuality is immoral? 

"offended" is an unhelpful word to express any sort of reaction to questions about morality.  i would say "of course" when it's put in such vague terms.  it's highly displeasing.  for one, it assumes that homosexuality is defined simply by one's actions.   of course, almost every gay person will strenuously disagree with that.  there is a much stronger sense of identity than simply sexual pleasure from someone of the same sex.  if a large percentage of the population were to say that your attachments to people of the opposite gender should be protected as part of your freedom, but your actions are evil, how would you feel?

If others thought my actions were evil I wouldn't really care because their beliefs are different than mine and thats okay.  As long as they weren't infringing on my rights, then they are entitled to their beliefs. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 17, 2006, 10:49:50 AM
Quote
In news that will surely disappoint some of you, women don't generally go to the bathroom in front of other women.  And no.

 ::)
I realize that you're working really hard to try and be funny to other posters, but maybe try harder or something.  Stalls and urinals often adjoin in such a way as to allow for sight and sound transfer.


No, if I was being funny, it was my natural wit or reflexive, misanthropic sarcasm (take your pick), but it wasn't work.  And if I remember correctly, you were the one that entered this thread telling me to "get a life" because I posted something you didn't recognize.

I tried to take this question seriously, but I have to be honest that I find it a bit silly.  But I'll try again.  My answer is, in general, no.  But sure -- the same way that you might be uncomfortable going to the bathroom at the same time as your boss or someone with whom you have a job interview, I wouldn't want to make the rustling sound of opening my tampon or fart or anything if some girl I thought was cute was in there.  But I'm generally a bit shy about using public bathrooms (for anything icky) anyway.  I also think this question is probably more apt for men, who actually do relieve themselves communally and reveal (in whatever limited sense) their flaccid penises to each other.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 17, 2006, 10:50:00 AM
if those seminars that claimed to "cure" gay people worked, would you do it?

Good question.  Now, no.  Ten years ago (I'm 28), yes. 

"I have a question.  Are you offended by someone supports gay rights (having equal rights as straight people) but at the same time believes homosexuality is immoral?  "

While I'm glad you support equal rights for gay people (for whatever reason), I doubt we could be friends if you think I'm immoral because I'm gay.

I have many friends who engage in various activities that I don't agree with but their some of my favorite people in the world.  I think people can be friends even though they disagree on certain issues. 

the interpretation is far different from the perspective of a gay person.  of course friends can disagree with certain actions of other friends and still be friends.  however, to a gay person, to say "your actions are immoral", is tantamount to saying, YOU are immoral!  it's difficult to be friends with someone who refuses to acknowledge your identity beyond sex.   
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 17, 2006, 10:52:33 AM
Quote
In news that will surely disappoint some of you, women don't generally go to the bathroom in front of other women.  And no.

 ::)
I realize that you're working really hard to try and be funny to other posters, but maybe try harder or something.  Stalls and urinals often adjoin in such a way as to allow for sight and sound transfer.


Do shut up, will you? I know that you're working really hard to be the resident moron, but that spot's over-subscribed. Putz.

Thanks for the reinforcement, love.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 17, 2006, 10:52:51 AM
If others thought my actions were evil I wouldn't really care because their beliefs are different than mine and thats okay.  As long as they weren't infringing on my rights, then they are entitled to their beliefs. 

i would never say that you're not entitled to your own moral beliefs.  this is why i think offensive is an improper way to phrase it.  however, i think that you're deluding yourself if you think that it wouldn't affect you and your perceptions. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 17, 2006, 10:54:15 AM
Quote
In news that will surely disappoint some of you, women don't generally go to the bathroom in front of other women.  And no.

 ::)
I realize that you're working really hard to try and be funny to other posters, but maybe try harder or something.  Stalls and urinals often adjoin in such a way as to allow for sight and sound transfer.


No, if I was being funny, it was my natural wit or reflexive, misanthropic sarcasm (take your pick), but it wasn't work.  And if I remember correctly, you were the one that entered this thread telling me to "get a life" because I posted something you didn't recognize.

I tried to take this question seriously, but I have to be honest that I find it a bit silly.  But I'll try again.  My answer is, in general, no.  But sure -- the same way that you might be uncomfortable going to the bathroom at the same time as your boss or someone with whom you have a job interview, I wouldn't want to make the rustling sound of opening my tampon or fart or anything if some girl I thought was cute was in there.  But I'm generally a bit shy about using public bathrooms (for anything icky) anyway.  I also think this question is probably more apt for men, who actually do relieve themselves communally and reveal (in whatever limited sense) their flaccid penises to each other.

ok, now we KNOW your kidding, cause we all know women dont fart.

doesnt happen.

nope

never.

unh uh
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 17, 2006, 10:57:18 AM

imnot going to try and convert you, butt

"I can't answer this question.  But I do count myself lucky that a lot of lesbians "do anal."  And it "works" for me."

i can def help you  ;)

You are unstoppable, blueb!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 17, 2006, 10:59:48 AM

imnot going to try and convert you, butt

"I can't answer this question.  But I do count myself lucky that a lot of lesbians "do anal."  And it "works" for me."

i can def help you  ;)

You are unstoppable, blueb!

it was just the perfect opp....
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: odaiko on May 17, 2006, 02:35:00 PM
Out of curiousity, do you think homosexuality is genetic, a learned behavior, or some combination of both? (But don't say it's a choice, because then you'll just get smacked.)

I ask because I've read some articles recently operating on the premise that most gay people believe they were born gay. I'm not sure I agree with this premise because it doesn't align with my own thinking.

I am gay, I know that I've been gay for as long as I can remember, but I don't know if it's because I was born that way or if some set of circumstances/events when I was very young led to my sexuality.

Other thoughts?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: jiggedyjared on May 17, 2006, 02:37:08 PM
Most research says that it's a combination of both.  Things like different mixes of hormones, etc, can play a large part in someone's sexuality.  I'd say it's 75% nurture, 25% nature.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 17, 2006, 02:40:59 PM
My feeling is that sexuality (not merely homosexuality or heterosexuality) is produced within culture, and I don't give a lot of credence to these biological studies (such as the one I read about yesterday that has lesbians smelling things differently from straight women).  Also, who cares, really?  Unless we're interested in converting people, we don't really need to know the mechanics of it.  It's not the genetic, nurtured, or chosen nature of monogamous heterosexuality that gives it its special place in our culture.

Anyway, for me, as far as I can tell, it was a political/social choice.  And then I backtracked for a while.  And then things got complicated.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: angmill08 on May 17, 2006, 02:57:56 PM
In order for gay people to win the heart of middle America, they must be seen, not simply as outsiders, but as victims.

I don't know about "victims". I think in order for gays to win the heart of middle America, they must be seen as middle America. I bet that as gays become more visible and integrated into the mainstream, it will be harder and harder to justify denying them the same rights that heterosexuals have.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 17, 2006, 03:10:53 PM
in an ideal world, it shouldn't matter whether it's biological, environmental, or simply a choice.  however, it does matter as far as winning support from the masses.  my opinion based upon my own experiences and studies i've read:  it must be a combination of environment and biology, but i would suggest biology creates a powerful proclivity (at least 50%). 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 17, 2006, 03:20:55 PM
in an ideal world, it shouldn't matter whether it's biological, environmental, or simply a choice.  however, it does matter as far as winning support from the masses. 

You know, I think a lot of gay people think that a biological origin would be secure a better status for homosexuality in the minds of homophobic straight people, but I'm not sure that "choice" and "environment" are the real objections they have to our sexuality.  People harbor all kinds of prejudices about things that are more or less biological (such as penis size or skin color), probably a combination of biology and environment (such as weight), likely environmental (such as literacy), and absolutely matters of choice (such as hair color and tattoos).  I don't think saying that biology did it is really going to matter to these people.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 17, 2006, 03:29:28 PM
You know, I think a lot of gay people think that a biological origin would be secure a better status for homosexuality in the minds of homophobic straight people, but I'm not sure that "choice" and "environment" are the real objections they have to our sexuality.  People harbor all kinds of prejudices about things that are more or less biological (such as penis size or skin color), probably a combination of biology and environment (such as weight), likely environmental (such as literacy), and absolutely matters of choice (such as hair color and tattoos).  I don't think saying that biology did it is really going to matter to these people.

true... i'm not saying a scientifically identified biological origin would cause all homophobes to purge their prejudice.  yet, a biological origin would provide powerful support and rationale for rights.  again, i'm not saying this should be the case, but realistically, in the minds of many, it is. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 17, 2006, 03:33:12 PM
You know, I think a lot of gay people think that a biological origin would be secure a better status for homosexuality in the minds of homophobic straight people, but I'm not sure that "choice" and "environment" are the real objections they have to our sexuality.  People harbor all kinds of prejudices about things that are more or less biological (such as penis size or skin color), probably a combination of biology and environment (such as weight), likely environmental (such as literacy), and absolutely matters of choice (such as hair color and tattoos).  I don't think saying that biology did it is really going to matter to these people.

true... i'm not saying a scientifically identified biological origin would cause all homophobes to purge their prejudice.  yet, a biological origin would provide powerful support and rationale for rights.  again, i'm not saying this should be the case, but realistically, in the minds of many, it is. 

Fair enough.  But I'd rather not have my rights dependent on that.  I think it should be enough to say, "This is how I live my life, and it doesn't hurt or involve you, so there's no reason for you to discriminate against me, and I'd like us all to have health insurance.  Thanks."
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 17, 2006, 03:44:58 PM
Fair enough.  But I'd rather not have my rights dependent on that.  I think it should be enough to say, "This is how I live my life, and it doesn't hurt or involve you, so there's no reason for you to discriminate against me, and I'd like us all to have health insurance.  Thanks."

i agree... it's a sad state of affairs when you have to justify your sexuality in order to gain the same access to benefits as straight people.  i guess from a pragmatic standpoint however, i think we should capitalize on studies linking sexuality to biology in order to gain tangible benefits, while continuing to push for broader cultural change.  i think one provides the impetus to advance the other. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Angelina1 on May 17, 2006, 04:20:40 PM
You know, I think a lot of gay people think that a biological origin would be secure a better status for homosexuality in the minds of homophobic straight people, but I'm not sure that "choice" and "environment" are the real objections they have to our sexuality.  People harbor all kinds of prejudices about things that are more or less biological (such as penis size or skin color), probably a combination of biology and environment (such as weight), likely environmental (such as literacy), and absolutely matters of choice (such as hair color and tattoos).  I don't think saying that biology did it is really going to matter to these people.

true... i'm not saying a scientifically identified biological origin would cause all homophobes to purge their prejudice.  yet, a biological origin would provide powerful support and rationale for rights.  again, i'm not saying this should be the case, but realistically, in the minds of many, it is. 

Fair enough.  But I'd rather not have my rights dependent on that.  I think it should be enough to say, "This is how I live my life, and it doesn't hurt or involve you, so there's no reason for you to discriminate against me, and I'd like us all to have health insurance.  Thanks."

I think you are 100% on point here, Miss P, as well as in your previous posts. I think that by trying to justify someone's personal sexuality--whether through biology or some other means--lends undeserved legitimacy to the idea that equal rights should be open for debate. It is simply a matter of equity. Period, end of story.

I also don't think there's a point in trying to "convince" fundamentalists of anything involving logic, since, by definition, their views of homosexuality are contradictory and illogically constructed (ever notice how they cherry-pick passages from the Old Testament and New Testament, and mash them together to make it look like accepting Christ as your personal saviour is predicated on not being gay? Sorry to go of on a rant, but it's just so STUPID).

I agree that liberals and activists need to work on their framing, but the people to focus on are the vast numbers of Americans who, though they may find gay sex "icky," still have enough of a sense of fairness that they would support equal rights if presented with a clear choice (though I hate the proverbial "polls," in this case I'll break down and cite the fact that the majority of Americans actually are not opposed to gay rights; now that passive lack of objection just needs to be turned into active support, and the fundamentalists don't stand a chance). And I agree with whomever said that the Democratic party should take a stronger stance on this. Stop waffling around about it! That is just lame. I think that the movement is unstoppable and greater equality is inevitable, but the Democrats could make it a whole lot easier on everyone if they got some backbone and righteous indignation on this issue. This is the Civil Rights movement of our generation--I guarantee that in 20 years, everyone will be looking back on this time period and wondering how anything like DOMA could have ever happened in this country in much the same way we look back now and shake our heads over Plessy v. Ferguson, etc.

Okay, that's the end of my rant (for now).
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 17, 2006, 04:39:48 PM
You know, I think a lot of gay people think that a biological origin would be secure a better status for homosexuality in the minds of homophobic straight people, but I'm not sure that "choice" and "environment" are the real objections they have to our sexuality.  People harbor all kinds of prejudices about things that are more or less biological (such as penis size or skin color), probably a combination of biology and environment (such as weight), likely environmental (such as literacy), and absolutely matters of choice (such as hair color and tattoos).  I don't think saying that biology did it is really going to matter to these people.

true... i'm not saying a scientifically identified biological origin would cause all homophobes to purge their prejudice.  yet, a biological origin would provide powerful support and rationale for rights.  again, i'm not saying this should be the case, but realistically, in the minds of many, it is. 

Fair enough.  But I'd rather not have my rights dependent on that.  I think it should be enough to say, "This is how I live my life, and it doesn't hurt or involve you, so there's no reason for you to discriminate against me, and I'd like us all to have health insurance.  Thanks."

I think you are 100% on point here, Miss P, as well as in your previous posts. I think that by trying to justify someone's personal sexuality--whether through biology or some other means--lends undeserved legitimacy to the idea that equal rights should be open for debate. It is simply a matter of equity. Period, end of story.

I also don't think there's a point in trying to "convince" fundamentalists of anything involving logic, since, by definition, their views of homosexuality are contradictory and illogically constructed (ever notice how they cherry-pick passages from the Old Testament and New Testament, and mash them together to make it look like accepting Christ as your personal saviour is predicated on not being gay? Sorry to go of on a rant, but it's just so STUPID).

I agree that liberals and activists need to work on their framing, but the people to focus on are the vast numbers of Americans who, though they may find gay sex "icky," still have enough of a sense of fairness that they would support equal rights if presented with a clear choice (though I hate the proverbial "polls," in this case I'll break down and cite the fact that the majority of Americans actually are not opposed to gay rights; now that passive lack of objection just needs to be turned into active support, and the fundamentalists don't stand a chance). And I agree with whomever said that the Democratic party should take a stronger stance on this. Stop waffling around about it! That is just lame. I think that the movement is unstoppable and greater equality is inevitable, but the Democrats could make it a whole lot easier on everyone if they got some backbone and righteous indignation on this issue. This is the Civil Rights movement of our generation--I guarantee that in 20 years, everyone will be looking back on this time period and wondering how anything like DOMA could have ever happened in this country in much the same way we look back now and shake our heads over Plessy v. Ferguson, etc.

Okay, that's the end of my rant (for now).

I'm with you 100%.  Thank you.  And rant on!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: odaiko on May 17, 2006, 04:51:53 PM
Ok, other random questions for the day:

What about a person's appearance and behavior distinguish him/her as being gay, thus triggering "gaydar"? Why do even people who are in the closet send off gaydar alarms? (This is fact. I can vouch for it.)

The idea of gaydar makes me question the "nurture" idea of sexuality, because if sexuality is naturally ambiguous (which is what I believe), and if it's just our society that forces us into tidy binary categories, then why is there such a clear definition between people who do exhibit "gay" behaviors/apperance and those who don't? (To buy this like of questioning, I guess you need to buy the fact that gaydar exists and is accurate.)

Sorry. Apparently I'm full of questions for other homosexuals! But would love to hear responses.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: incognito on May 17, 2006, 05:14:40 PM
Ok, other random questions for the day:

What about a person's appearance and behavior distinguish him/her as being gay, thus triggering "gaydar"? Why do even people who are in the closet send off gaydar alarms? (This is fact. I can vouch for it.)

The idea of gaydar makes me question the "nurture" idea of sexuality, because if sexuality is naturally ambiguous (which is what I believe), and if it's just our society that forces us into tidy binary categories, then why is there such a clear definition between people who do exhibit "gay" behaviors/apperance and those who don't? (To buy this like of questioning, I guess you need to buy the fact that gaydar exists and is accurate.)

Sorry. Apparently I'm full of questions for other homosexuals! But would love to hear responses.

For me, it is all about non-verbal responses, mostly eye contact.  I've found that gay men are more likely to look me in the eye than are straight men, or maybe it is that they are willing to hold the contact for a longer period of time.  Straight men treat me as I treat women, they look at me and immediately dismiss me as a potential mate.

I have a question myself:  what would you like straight people to know about gay people?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: caligal on May 17, 2006, 05:23:40 PM
...that we aren't that different - we love, live, laugh, hurt and cry just like them.  we have the same hopes, fears and dreams.

sigh...

Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 17, 2006, 05:41:06 PM
do you really fantasize about seducing a straight guy/gal?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: caligal on May 17, 2006, 05:42:27 PM
no...do you fantasize getting seduced by a gay man or lesbian?

i dont want a straight person!!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 17, 2006, 05:44:15 PM
no...do you fantasize getting seduced by a gay man or lesbian?

i dont want a straight person!!

umm, fantasize?

youd be amazed what i fantasize...
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 17, 2006, 05:50:54 PM
no...do you fantasize getting seduced by a gay man or lesbian?

umm, fantasize?

LOL.  Keep working, blueb!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 17, 2006, 05:51:37 PM
9 more minutes!!!!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: incognito on May 17, 2006, 05:56:15 PM
do you really fantasize about seducing a straight guy/gal?

No, too much baggage.  I won't even date someone unless they've been out for a year.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 17, 2006, 06:02:45 PM
do you really fantasize about seducing a straight guy/gal?

To be honest, I don't generally find straight women attractive, and when I've messed around with them, it hasn't been that much fun.  I've had more fun with straight guys.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 17, 2006, 06:23:35 PM
Ok, other random questions for the day:

What about a person's appearance and behavior distinguish him/her as being gay, thus triggering "gaydar"? Why do even people who are in the closet send off gaydar alarms? (This is fact. I can vouch for it.)

The idea of gaydar makes me question the "nurture" idea of sexuality, because if sexuality is naturally ambiguous (which is what I believe), and if it's just our society that forces us into tidy binary categories, then why is there such a clear definition between people who do exhibit "gay" behaviors/apperance and those who don't? (To buy this like of questioning, I guess you need to buy the fact that gaydar exists and is accurate.)

Sorry. Apparently I'm full of questions for other homosexuals! But would love to hear responses.

I think gaydar is really interesting!  And it totally works!   But I don't totally understand why its effectiveness has a disposition one way or the other on nature vs. nurture.  It seems as if we can sense all sorts of things about people (from eye contact, etc.) that are undoubtedly environmental, right?  I'd be interested in hearing more.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: caligal on May 17, 2006, 06:38:42 PM
blue...you are funny!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: finally on May 17, 2006, 07:13:05 PM
Is there such a thing as "curious-dar"?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 17, 2006, 07:17:09 PM
Is there such a thing as "curious-dar"?

you dont strike me as the curious type....
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: finally on May 17, 2006, 07:18:39 PM
Is there such a thing as "curious-dar"?

you dont strike me as the curious type....

I'm not; sorry to disappoint u.   but I was curious. . . ;) :D
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 17, 2006, 07:21:40 PM
 ::)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: finally on May 17, 2006, 07:23:25 PM
::)

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahaha!   :D ;) :-*
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 17, 2006, 07:48:48 PM
Is there such a thing as "curious-dar"?

I've always thought that was like when your gaydar goes off but the pieces don't quite fit. My friends call it "sketch factor."  ;D
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: HK on May 17, 2006, 08:26:15 PM
Ok, other random questions for the day:

What about a person's appearance and behavior distinguish him/her as being gay, thus triggering "gaydar"? Why do even people who are in the closet send off gaydar alarms? (This is fact. I can vouch for it.)

The idea of gaydar makes me question the "nurture" idea of sexuality, because if sexuality is naturally ambiguous (which is what I believe), and if it's just our society that forces us into tidy binary categories, then why is there such a clear definition between people who do exhibit "gay" behaviors/apperance and those who don't? (To buy this like of questioning, I guess you need to buy the fact that gaydar exists and is accurate.)

Sorry. Apparently I'm full of questions for other homosexuals! But would love to hear responses.

For me, it is all about non-verbal responses, mostly eye contact.  I've found that gay men are more likely to look me in the eye than are straight men, or maybe it is that they are willing to hold the contact for a longer period of time.  Straight men treat me as I treat women, they look at me and immediately dismiss me as a potential mate.

I have a question myself:  what would you like straight people to know about gay people?

I think you make a good point. In every country you need to modify the gaydar a bit, however, it's the eye contact that remains the same.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 17, 2006, 08:35:47 PM
I'll take these, too.

Do gay men/women have a hard time going to the public bathrooms in front of people they are interested in or significant others?

In news that will surely disappoint some of you, women don't generally go to the bathroom in front of other women.  And no.

What % of gay men do anal? I've heard it's lower than most think, and does that... work for the recipient?

I can't answer this question.  But I do count myself lucky that a lot of lesbians "do anal."  And it "works" for me.

Certain words that also mean homosexual are used as insults towards straight men and even objects.  Are you or others offended when you hear others use "gay" or "fag" as an insult towards straight men?

I think it is more embarrassing for them than it is offensive to me, but yes.  And it's occasionally funny.


I admit I'm naive Miss P. I didn't know lesbians "did anal."  The things I learn on LSD.

OK on the anal sex note ... do people switch between top/bottom (sorry I'm not that familiar with the terms), or is one person generally on the bottom? One of those questions I've always wanted to ask but am usually too shy.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 17, 2006, 08:40:13 PM
and im sure the bottom benefits from the reach around

gotta love the reach around...  ;D
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 17, 2006, 08:42:15 PM
I have very poor gaydar so I cannot contribute a lot to this discussion. Straight guys stare at me for some reason and the whole thing is just too confusing.

I've probably stared at a few pretty lesbians ... I guess I'm thinking 1)She doesn't look gay (I know, shame on me for stereotyping and 1)Well, if I were a lesbian, I'd go for a pretty one like that.

However, I guess that's about as far as my "sketch factor" goes.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 17, 2006, 08:43:39 PM
OK on the anal sex note ... do people switch between top/bottom (sorry I'm not that familiar with the terms), or is one person generally on the bottom? One of those questions I've always wanted to ask but am usually too shy.

In my experience, most people prefer one or the other, given the option, though you will hear most gays say they are versatile.

But some couples do switch back and forth and others tend to always keep the roles the same.
Thanks  :) I appreciate being able to ask without getting this  ::)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 17, 2006, 08:44:21 PM
its always akward when they pick me up on their false positives.

"oh no, did i brush my hair gay this morning?"

"are my shorts too tight? do they clash with my bright orange shirt?"
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 17, 2006, 08:47:10 PM
its always akward when they pick me up on their false positives.

"oh no, did i brush my hair gay this morning?"

"are my shorts too tight? do they clash with my bright orange shirt?"

My boyfriend has had a few gay "fans."  I don't blame them.  I rather like him myself.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: odaiko on May 18, 2006, 08:52:30 AM
do you really fantasize about seducing a straight guy/gal?

Yes. It's one of my most embarrassing qualities. :-\  And I've been close... twice!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 18, 2006, 10:19:29 AM
I'll take these, too.

What % of gay men do anal? I've heard it's lower than most think, and does that... work for the recipient?

I can't answer this question.  But I do count myself lucky that a lot of lesbians "do anal."  And it "works" for me.

I admit I'm naive Miss P. I didn't know lesbians "did anal."  The things I learn on LSD.

OK on the anal sex note ... do people switch between top/bottom (sorry I'm not that familiar with the terms), or is one person generally on the bottom? One of those questions I've always wanted to ask but am usually too shy.

First, dbgirl, you should feel welcome to ask these questions.  It's totally cool.  And not just because I think you're awesome to begin with.

In truth, lesbians do pretty much everything anyone else does in bed, though my observations suggest that there are more "freaky" lesbians and more "prudish" lesbians than there are straight women of either sort, with fewer ladies in the mushy middle.  (I could definitely be wrong about this.)  But I even give my (non-male) partners "blowjobs" of a sort!  :o 

As for anal sex, a lot of people have hangups about anal sex and don't do it: lesbians and straight people and a small minority of gay men.  They're missing out!  To be honest (and this is the point of anonymous message boards, right?), I think anal sex is more fun with men, but that's for complicated, graphic reasons that I'd prefer not to discuss.  But plenty of lesbians have anal sex. Yay!

I think Bonkers admirably answered the top/bottom question, but I'll add one twist.  Lesbians generally call being "versatile" "switching" or being "a switch."  And I would hazard a guess that there are probably more lesbians who switch than there are gay men who are truly versatile, but I'm not sure about that.  It depends on the particular community, but a lot of lesbians seem to place an emphasis on the egalitarian potential and reciprocal nature of their relationships, and I think this plays out sexually as well.  Whatever floats your boat!  Me, I am not a switch.  A friend of mine once said, "Versatility is the opiate of the masses."  I'm sticking with it!

Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: finally on May 18, 2006, 11:19:13 AM
I've learned a lot on this thread!  Thanks guys and gals  :)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 18, 2006, 11:49:18 AM
I've learned a lot on this thread!  Thanks guys and gals  :)

got you ana11y curious, huh?

prevert
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: mto83 on May 18, 2006, 12:19:54 PM
and im sure the bottom benefits from the reach around

gotta love the reach around...  ;D

there is this thing called a prostate--it is a magical place.  :-X
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 18, 2006, 01:49:24 PM
LOL.  I totally read this differently!  I thought Anderson was raising his eyebrows like, "Fool, what are you doing talking about the quality of my show?  You are some kind of whack Kato Kaelin redux."  You know, like if Dan Brown called Scalia up and said, "Justice, I really enjoyed your prose stylings in that last opinion.  Keep up the good work!"  But boys, enjoy the fantasies. (?!)  :D
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 18, 2006, 02:08:07 PM
No way... there was total gay electricity in the air. Ryan was too brazen, taking his one shot to flirt with what was obviously a secret crush, and Anderson reverted to an embarrassed 6th grader for 2 unguarded seconds.

Classic television moment!

seacrest disturbs me.  i can't even watch... 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Angelina1 on May 18, 2006, 02:08:34 PM
Changing subject, did anyone see the dialogue between anderson cooper and ryan seacrest on CNN.  Check it out through this blog:  http://malcontent.typepad.com/malcontent/2005/11/anderson_and_ry.html

It is hilarious.  Anderson you can do so much better!  Like me!  Pick me!  God he's hot.  And if you were in high school during Channel 1 days it is this whole forbidden love erotic thing.
\

I agree Anderson is
HOT  HOT  HOT!
I haven't seen this clip, but will have to check it out. I tend to doubt AC would have much use for Ryan Seacrest, though, who is just hilarious--unintentionally so, I think. My boyfriend, who thinks Ryan is "the most useless human being on the planet," has developed a whole persona of a stalker/fan of his, so maybe that's why I find the subject so funny.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 18, 2006, 02:09:27 PM
No way... there was total gay electricity in the air. Ryan was too brazen, taking his one shot to flirt with what was obviously a secret crush, and Anderson reverted to an embarrassed 6th grader for 2 unguarded seconds.

Classic television moment!

Oh, I definitely felt it coming from Seacrest; I just thought Anderson reacted to him as if he were a small child.  But Anderson has disappointed me before, it's true.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 18, 2006, 02:14:09 PM
seacrest disturbs me.  i can't even watch... 

I heart him... after law school we are going to get married.

he's so short, and he would have to be banned from talking, but he's attractive. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 18, 2006, 02:15:18 PM
Two words: Kato Kaelin.  I would not welcome him into my pool house.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 18, 2006, 02:26:36 PM
Miss P, WTF are you?

Male, female, gay, straight, black, white, fat, skinny?

I'm so confused.

Which isn't something I should say in the "Ask a Homosexual" thread, but whatev.

I'm complicated, I guess.  :D

I'm quite female and quite feminine.  In no way skinny.  I am pretty much a lesbian, but that means different things to different people.  I like boys sometimes.  I am not black.  I have one white parent, but I'd prefer not to say too much more about my background.  I speak up a lot on BLSD, and I know that's confused some people about whether I might be black.  I hope I never say anything misleading about that.  That would be very lame.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 18, 2006, 02:29:37 PM
This thread is hereby banning any further comparisons of Ryan Seacrest to K*to K*elin, that is gross.

Sorry, Bonkers!  I'll try!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 18, 2006, 02:42:00 PM
For what it's worth, I thought Miss P was a male gay. Didn't we have this discussion before?

We did?  I don't remember, but you may have discussed it with someone else.  I remember I applied to Bonkers SOL, and I thought I was pretty up front about things then.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: joespecial on May 18, 2006, 02:44:24 PM
What is Bonkers SOL? I can't remember genders anymore, the whole transgender thing is throwing me off.

I actually hit on this guy a few weeks ago, and after some conversation, he said, "One thing I should tell you is, I'm a trans."

You're a WHAT ?!?!?!?!?  I am traumatized.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 18, 2006, 02:52:38 PM
What is Bonkers SOL? I can't remember genders anymore, the whole transgender thing is throwing me off.

I actually hit on this guy a few weeks ago, and after some conversation, he said, "One thing I should tell you is, I'm a trans."

You're a WHAT ?!?!?!?!?  I am traumatized.

Oh sorry!  Remember when you did the admissions thing to your own school of law with its own entry criteria?  Oh, here: http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,51537.0.html

I know. Trans stuff can get very confusing... though not nearly as confusing as everyone squishing into those tidy boxes, I suppose.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 18, 2006, 02:57:27 PM
im a flaming hetero.

but id be all over a hot she-male or pre-op.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Angelina1 on May 18, 2006, 03:02:45 PM
What is Bonkers SOL? I can't remember genders anymore, the whole transgender thing is throwing me off.

I actually hit on this guy a few weeks ago, and after some conversation, he said, "One thing I should tell you is, I'm a trans."

You're a WHAT ?!?!?!?!?  I am traumatized.

Oh sorry!  Remember when you did the admissions thing to your own school of law with its own entry criteria?  Oh, here: http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,51537.0.html

I know. Trans stuff can get very confusing... though not nearly as confusing as everyone squishing into those tidy boxes, I suppose.

So true! I will never forget what the androgynous TAs for my "Social Construction of Gender" class said about this (when he/she gave a lecture on bisexual and transgender issues late in the semester, knowing very well that none of us had been able to figure out if he/she was a guy with long hair just dressed like a woman, or a man in the process of trans-gendering, or just a 'masculine'-looking woman): something like, "I don't feel like I should have to fit into one simple category, and even going through the transgender process to 'correct' something is fitting yourself into the culturally-imposed construction of 'gender' and 'sex' as two narrowly-defined categories. I just don't feel that my attraction to people is tied to their biological sex or cultural gender. For instance, right now I'm dating a woman; what does that make me? A lesbian?"  :D :D :D

That was a fantastic course, and in fact every lecture was very dynamic and fun, but that class in particular was great.

So, Miss P, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that people are confused by "what" you are. If you don't want to define yourself by a particular skin color or gender tag, I don't think it's necessary--in fact, isn't the point of diversity to break down socially-constructed barriers and see greater possibilities?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 18, 2006, 03:12:16 PM
So, Miss P, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that people are confused by "what" you are. If you don't want to define yourself by a particular skin color or gender tag, I don't think it's necessary--in fact, isn't the point of diversity to break down socially-constructed barriers and see greater possibilities?

Thanks, A-1!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 18, 2006, 03:20:31 PM
Eh, I think it's worth thinking about.  The variety of gender expression out there really does show you that gender is made not had.

But FWIW, I have never been vague at all about my gender identity.  I was born female.  I was raised female. I remain female.  I am quite feminine. I am "femme."
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: odaiko on May 18, 2006, 04:55:51 PM
I must agree. 

Everyone should be free to be themselves, but all that jazz about there being no sexes or genders or anything I had to read about in Women's Studies was just weird. 

I know. I don't think there is a gender continuum. Unless you are a hermaphrodite, it is binary. But taking hermaphrodites into account, let's be generous and say there are three genders.

As for sexual attraction, women seem to think that attraction is very fluid, so I will leave them with that whole question in a box called "women."

Men must choose a sexual orientation and if you are not sure, it means you are a fag.

I can't tell if you're kidding or not. Are you?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: !! on May 18, 2006, 07:15:45 PM
I have a question for you homos!  Why do you need special rights?!?  Next you're gonna want to marry cats and dogs!

 



(Before one of you jumps down my throat, I'm gay... and joking)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: redemption on May 19, 2006, 06:19:36 AM
Eh, I think it's worth thinking about.  The variety of gender expression out there really does show you that gender is made not had.

But FWIW, I have never been vague at all about my gender identity.  I was born female.  I was raised female. I remain female.  I am quite feminine. I am "femme."

I heard the sound of trumpets.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: AtlantaSteve on May 19, 2006, 06:57:22 AM
This kind of attitude has always upset me.  There was a time when the gay rights movement fought against the idea of anyone controlling anyone else's sexuality, fought the idea that there was a normal way to express sexuality.  As the members of the movement aged, the cause became more about getting rights than about changing the public's view of sexuality.  As a tactical move, I can support it, but there is no reason to sacrifice one on the alter of the other.  It's time to stop being embarassed and start embracing anyone who has the courage to express him/herself.  You still see this everywhere as activists fight being coopted by the mainstream gay rights movement, but there should be enough room under the umbrella for everyone.

i'm actually very torn about this.  on one hand, i see some of the pride events, and i'm absolutely horrified by some of the displays.  on the other hand, i understand the role of "subversive" identity politics in order to make a symbolic point. 

Oh puh-leeze.  I came to this thread with my bleeding-heart credentials firmly on my sleeve, but nude dancing and public sex-play in pride parades has about as much to do with "subversive identity politics" as looting during the LA riots had to do with promoting civil rights.  It's all about capitalizing on the opportunity to get a free TV, so to speak.

Pride parades are the one day out of the year when people who feel suppressed can "cut loose" in a supportive environment, so some people go wild with it.  I'm not saying it's "right" or "wrong" (that's more an issue for the gay community to debate internally), but I am saying it's more about the individual than any collective strategy for the greater good.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 19, 2006, 07:07:47 AM
and why is it almost alwys the guys doing it, never the lezzies?

grrrrrrr
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 19, 2006, 07:30:25 AM
Oh puh-leeze.  I came to this thread with my bleeding-heart credentials firmly on my sleeve, but nude dancing and public sex-play in pride parades has about as much to do with "subversive identity politics" as looting during the LA riots had to do with promoting civil rights.  It's all about capitalizing on the opportunity to get a free TV, so to speak.

Pride parades are the one day out of the year when people who feel suppressed can "cut loose" in a supportive environment, so some people go wild with it.  I'm not saying it's "right" or "wrong" (that's more an issue for the gay community to debate internally), but I am saying it's more about the individual than any collective strategy for the greater good.


it's not the same at all.  you can agree or disagree about whether or not it has a positive or negative impact.  i am unsure myself, but i tend to think there are better ways to express yourself.  yet, looting has nothing to do with a person's expression of their identity.  sexual displays do have a lot to do with one's sexual orientation, however.  you may be right about some people doing it for their own reasons, but it also may serve to desensitize the masses to something that many are totally ignorant about and has long been considered "taboo" by many.  the easiest way to make something taboo is to not talk about it or be exposed to the possibility - make it seem as if it's just some underground activity that only a small segment of social deviants engage in.  think of all the sexual displays you see daily in heteronormative culture:  magazine ads with scantily clad women and men in suggestive poses, simulated sex on tv, hot makeout scenes, etc.  these are all taken for granted.  originally, such displays evolved not out of individuals taking advantage of an opportunity to have some fun or to "get a free tv"; it was a collective expression of identity meant to shock heterosexuals and display "pride" in oneself and the collective gay community. 

Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Phatmal on May 19, 2006, 09:35:44 AM
What pride parades have all this nudity?  I'm not the pride world traveler but I've been to SF and Chicago's pride.  Scantily clad, yes and I've seen one topless woman and one really old naked man....but other than that, I think the whole thing is blown way out of proportion.  It's all for fun and I'm not sure why it has to make some sort of political statement.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ScoopNY on May 19, 2006, 10:04:57 AM
I totally agree, I've been to the New York Pride Parade about a dozen times and the worst I've seen are some topless middle-aged lesbians. Plenty of dancing boys with their shirts off on the floats, but most of the people in the crowd are indistinguishable from any other parade in New York, except just a tad more fabulous.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Phatmal on May 19, 2006, 10:19:52 AM
Isn't that the truth.  We really need to keep our dullness from becoming public knowledge.  Seriously, how can the Gay Agenda and hetero to homo conversion campaign be a success if everyone finds out how dull, middle aged, and suburbanized we end up being.... :P
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Angelina1 on May 19, 2006, 10:33:38 AM
Oh puh-leeze.  I came to this thread with my bleeding-heart credentials firmly on my sleeve, but nude dancing and public sex-play in pride parades has about as much to do with "subversive identity politics" as looting during the LA riots had to do with promoting civil rights.  It's all about capitalizing on the opportunity to get a free TV, so to speak.

Pride parades are the one day out of the year when people who feel suppressed can "cut loose" in a supportive environment, so some people go wild with it.  I'm not saying it's "right" or "wrong" (that's more an issue for the gay community to debate internally), but I am saying it's more about the individual than any collective strategy for the greater good.


it's not the same at all.  you can agree or disagree about whether or not it has a positive or negative impact.  i am unsure myself, but i tend to think there are better ways to express yourself.  yet, looting has nothing to do with a person's expression of their identity.  sexual displays do have a lot to do with one's sexual orientation, however.  you may be right about some people doing it for their own reasons, but it also may serve to desensitize the masses to something that many are totally ignorant about and has long been considered "taboo" by many.  the easiest way to make something taboo is to not talk about it or be exposed to the possibility - make it seem as if it's just some underground activity that only a small segment of social deviants engage in.  think of all the sexual displays you see daily in heteronormative culture:  magazine ads with scantily clad women and men in suggestive poses, simulated sex on tv, hot makeout scenes, etc.  these are all taken for granted.  originally, such displays evolved not out of individuals taking advantage of an opportunity to have some fun or to "get a free tv"; it was a collective expression of identity meant to shock heterosexuals and display "pride" in oneself and the collective gay community. 



I totally agree--why shouldn't gay people be just as gross as heteros?  :D

Personally I find it distasteful and rude when people make out on the subway, for instance, regardless of their sexual orientation.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: !! on May 19, 2006, 10:43:17 AM

Personally I find it distasteful and rude when people make out on the subway, for instance, regardless of their sexual orientation.

Yeah... me too.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 19, 2006, 10:45:45 AM
I totally agree--why shouldn't gay people be just as gross as heteros?  :D

is that possible?!  ;)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Angelina1 on May 19, 2006, 10:47:08 AM
I totally agree--why shouldn't gay people be just as gross as heteros?  :D

is that possible?!  ;)

 :D :D  180  :D :D
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: AtlantaSteve on May 19, 2006, 11:34:35 AM
Geeze, I step away from LSD for a few hours, and people are making it out like I said pride parades are OVERWHELMINGLY about people being exhibitionist.  Hey folks, I work and play in the Midtown and Decatur neighborhoods of Atlanta... I'm pretty familiar with gay pride events.  Of course, I'm only referring to 1% of participants (if that).

At the same time, I still call major B.S. on the apologists who chalk that behavior up to "desensitizing people out of their prejudice".  Give me a break, it only reinforces people's prejudice.  When the African American community organized the Million Man March, were they accepting and supportive of participants "thugging out" in gang colors and firing guns at the sky?  In the immigrant rights protests earlier this month, would organizers have tolerated participants dancing around piñatas and eating tacos while wearing novelty-sized sombreros? 

OF COURSE NOT.  In those scenerios, you could make the same argument that participants are "expressing their identity" through shock value to desensitize people.  Oh, what's that you say?  Those behaviors aren't truly representative of their group's identity, and it's bigotry for me to suggest otherwise?  EXACTLY.  Most gay people are decent, well-adjusted people who practice sexual expression through monogamous loving relationships (well, at least in the same ratios as do straight people, anyway).  A small number of people dancing around and waving their d*cks in the middle of a public street is not "expressing the identity" of America's gay community.  They're expressing an exaggerated perversion of that identity that is used to fuel bigotry and hatred.  With friends like those, homosexuals don't need enemies.


(By the way, the comparisons to Mardi Gras and people making out on subways are spot-on.  How many straight people appreciate that kind of behavior representing THEIR sexuality?  I think there are common standards of "decency" that transcend the gender of your partners, and it represents true acceptance of homosexuals when they are included under that umbrella.)

Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 19, 2006, 11:58:30 AM
At the same time, I still call major B.S. on the apologists who chalk that behavior up to "desensitizing people out of their prejudice".  Give me a break, it only reinforces people's prejudice.  When the African American community organized the Million Man March, were they accepting and supportive of participants "thugging out" in gang colors and firing guns at the sky?  In the immigrant rights protests earlier this month, would organizers have tolerated participants dancing around piñatas and eating tacos while wearing novelty-sized sombreros?

first off, stop with the bad analogies.  these also aren't applicable.

Quote
OF COURSE NOT.  In those scenerios, you could make the same argument that participants are "expressing their identity" through shock value to desensitize people.  Oh, what's that you say?  Those behaviors aren't truly representative of their group's identity, and it's bigotry for me to suggest otherwise?  EXACTLY.  Most gay people are decent, well-adjusted people who practice sexual expression through monogamous loving relationships (well, at least in the same ratios as do straight people, anyway).  A small number of people dancing around and waving their d*cks in the middle of a public street is not "expressing the identity" of America's gay community.  They're expressing an exaggerated perversion of that identity that is used to fuel bigotry and hatred.  With friends like those, homosexuals don't need enemies.

of course it's not representative.  that act of being perverse isn't supposed to be representative of how a group expresses that common sexual identity, but it can still serve two purposes (which were part of the ORIGINAL idea of pride, not necessarily what it has changed into - i.e. a demand for equal rights and welcomed assimilation):  1) like i said, shock and desensitize (maybe people think it's disgusting and it reinforces stereotypes, but the breakdown of taboo may be strategically more important initially for advancement), 2) protest (a simple act of defiance to say, "i don't need your approval"). 

don't attribute this to me just being an apologist.  i've already said i think there are more positive expressions, but it's hard to say "get away from us, you freaks".  i think sectarianism is more troubling than these types of limited expressions. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ScoopNY on May 19, 2006, 12:18:44 PM
Quote
Personally I find it distasteful and rude when people make out on the subway, for instance, regardless of their sexual orientation.

What if it's late at night and  no one's around?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Angelina1 on May 19, 2006, 12:23:49 PM
Quote
Personally I find it distasteful and rude when people make out on the subway, for instance, regardless of their sexual orientation.

What if it's late at night and  no one's around?

What i can't see can't disgust me!  ;)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 19, 2006, 12:28:57 PM
Geeze, I step away from LSD for a few hours, and people are making it out like I said pride parades are OVERWHELMINGLY about people being exhibitionist.  Hey folks, I work and play in the Midtown and Decatur neighborhoods of Atlanta... I'm pretty familiar with gay pride events.  Of course, I'm only referring to 1% of participants (if that).

At the same time, I still call major B.S. on the apologists who chalk that behavior up to "desensitizing people out of their prejudice".  Give me a break, it only reinforces people's prejudice.  When the African American community organized the Million Man March, were they accepting and supportive of participants "thugging out" in gang colors and firing guns at the sky?  In the immigrant rights protests earlier this month, would organizers have tolerated participants dancing around piñatas and eating tacos while wearing novelty-sized sombreros? 

OF COURSE NOT.  In those scenerios, you could make the same argument that participants are "expressing their identity" through shock value to desensitize people.  Oh, what's that you say?  Those behaviors aren't truly representative of their group's identity, and it's bigotry for me to suggest otherwise?  EXACTLY.  Most gay people are decent, well-adjusted people who practice sexual expression through monogamous loving relationships (well, at least in the same ratios as do straight people, anyway).  A small number of people dancing around and waving their d*cks in the middle of a public street is not "expressing the identity" of America's gay community.  They're expressing an exaggerated perversion of that identity that is used to fuel bigotry and hatred.  With friends like those, homosexuals don't need enemies.

(By the way, the comparisons to Mardi Gras and people making out on subways are spot-on.  How many straight people appreciate that kind of behavior representing THEIR sexuality?   I think there are common standards of "decency" that transcend the gender of your partners, and it represents true acceptance of homosexuals when they are included under that umbrella.)

AtlantaSteve, I don't think you said anything homophobic or offensive.  Indeed, you made it clear that this was an issue that you thought queers should talk about among themselves and resolve as they see fit.  That seems entirely reasonable to me.  I don't think anyone's jumping on you so much.

But in response to the bolded part of your post:
Straight people don't generally worry about that kind of crap representing them.  Because heterosexuality as a category goes unnamed, people (especially if they're not queer) are unlikely to take the overwhelming perversion and frequent grossness of straight society to say anything significant about heterosexuals as people or their "rights" or anything else. And I just don't see any problem with placing the same burden of discernment on homophobes and straight people more generally, expecting them to be able to tell the difference between one Radical Faerie streaking though the parade or two guys handing out explicit flyers for a porn website and the entire contingent of gay firefighters and the twelve different PFLAG groups.  After all, I know the difference between Craigslist casual encounters and eHarmony.com; between teenagers making out on the subway and a married couple in matching wedding rings; between Coyote Ugly and the corner straight bar.  I may join the witch hunters in looking for the dirtiest sections of the parade, but I think the overwhelming message for most people is that homosexuality has become incredibly mundane.  Yawn.

Also, Pride in most cities is not an activist march; it's a parade, a cultural celebration, play time.  As such, it's much more for our enjoyment than for straight people's enlightenment or for the promotion of any political agenda.  (Indeed, there are Greens and Log Cabin Republicans and old people and dykes on bikes and police officers and NLG lawyers -- we can't agree on anything.)  The only point Pride overall is supposed to make about LGBT people is that we exist and we are diverse. 

Third, I agree with trogdor about the self-expression/shock/autonomy bit, but I also think there are other reasons for the sexually explicit imagery at Pride.  For one, it's often the biggest place to reach audiences of men who have sex with men who are NOT well integrated into gay communities with information about safe sex, HIV testing, help overcoming your crystal meth addiction, etc. A pamphlet about how much fun blowjobs with condoms are is pretty unconvincing without some hot guys enjoying them.  Actually, it's unconvincing anyway, but there you go.

Finally, it seems as if every time queer communities try to police out perversion, they end up marginalizing people who are perhaps in the most need of the communities' resources.  Continually re-centering LGBT agendas around long-term monogamy, and the related campaigns for marriage equality and such, hasn't done most of us any good. I, for one, definitely want the healthy S/M guide in the bookstore where young practitioners can find it.  I want STD testing information and trans surgical information out there.  I think we need to support queer sex workers and homeless queer youth, for whom marriage is the last thing on their minds.  I want to see condoms distributed anywhere men have sex, whether it's the gym or the porn store or a DL bar uptown or wherever.  I worry that if we try to control people's behavior in Pride parades, we're just pushing them out into the cold, and I don't want to be part of a community that would do that.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 19, 2006, 12:49:45 PM
did you try girls, and just not like em?

Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 19, 2006, 12:50:09 PM
Finally, it seems as if every time queer communities try to police out perversion, they end up marginalizing people who are perhaps in the most need of the communities' resources.  Continually re-centering LGBT agendas around long-term monogamy, and the related campaigns for marriage equality and such, hasn't done most of us any good. I, for one, definitely want the healthy S/M guide in the bookstore where young practitioners can find it.  I want STD testing information and trans surgical information out there.  I think we need to support queer sex workers and homeless queer youth, for whom marriage is the last thing on their minds.  I want to see condoms distributed anywhere men have sex, whether it's the gym or the porn store or a DL bar uptown or wherever.  I worry that if we try to control people's behavior in Pride parades, we're just pushing them out into the cold, and I don't want to be part of a community that would do that.

exactly... you don't have to agree with their approach, and i don't agree with a lot of the actions of people who are gay, but i think it's very important to reserve the judgement and do what you can to help everyone.  infighting is one of the biggest problems for advancing minority groups.  they're too busy calling each other names rather than focusing on what's more important. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: AtlantaSteve on May 19, 2006, 12:56:56 PM
At the same time, I still call major B.S. on the apologists who chalk that behavior up to "desensitizing people out of their prejudice".  Give me a break, it only reinforces people's prejudice.  When the African American community organized the Million Man March, were they accepting and supportive of participants "thugging out" in gang colors and firing guns at the sky?  In the immigrant rights protests earlier this month, would organizers have tolerated participants dancing around piñatas and eating tacos while wearing novelty-sized sombreros?

first off, stop with the bad analogies.  these also aren't applicable.

Those two analogies were were deliberately bad to make a point, Trogdor.  Quote both paragraphs I wrote if you're going to quote at all.


Third, I agree with trogdor about the self-expression/shock/autonomy bit, but I also think there are other reasons for the sexually explicit imagery at Pride.  For one, it's often the biggest place to reach audiences of men who have sex with men who are NOT well integrated into gay communities with information about safe sex, HIV testing, help overcoming your crystal meth addiction, etc. A pamphlet about how much fun blowjobs with condoms are is pretty unconvincing without some hot guys enjoying them.  Actually, it's unconvincing anyway, but there you go.

Finally, it seems as if every time queer communities try to police out perversion, they end up marginalizing people who are perhaps in the most need of the communities' resources.  Continually re-centering LGBT agendas around long-term monogamy, and the related campaigns for marriage equality and such, hasn't done most of us any good. I, for one, definitely want the healthy S/M guide in the bookstore where young practitioners can find it.  I want STD testing information and trans surgical information out there.  I think we need to support queer sex workers and homeless queer youth, for whom marriage is the last thing on their minds.  I want to see condoms distributed anywhere men have sex, whether it's the gym or the porn store or a DL bar uptown or wherever.  I worry that if we try to control people's behavior in Pride parades, we're just pushing them out into the cold, and I don't want to be part of a community that would do that.

Very articulate point, MissP.  I'm not trying to suggest that the wild minority should be shunned, or kicked out, or whatever... those kinds of decisions aren't my business.  I'm just saying that they're not "heros" working subversively for the greater good, and it's silly to make it out otherwise.  That's all.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Phatmal on May 19, 2006, 01:02:32 PM
I'm having a tough time making a connection here....I don't find the activities of people at pride to represent my sexuality at all and I have a very tough time believing that straight people may equate Mardi Gras behavior as representing their straight sexuality.

If people take pride as a political activist event, I truly think they are in the minority.  I think most folks like pride because it's a time to be around a whole bunch of queer people and for most gays, that's not something they experience in their daily lives and it's fun.  

I think people are making more out of pride than what is really there.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: H4CS on May 19, 2006, 01:05:28 PM
There are a lot of people who aren't heroes in this world AtlantaSteve, you should work on going after them too .  Anyone who has to enter a conversation saying "I'm as tolerant as the next" probably isn't and I think your purposly bad analogies show this. 

My original point, to which you've done a bad job of responding, was that there is no need to demonize those who express themselves in this manner.  I mentioned how the movement has changed, but that nobody should accept that as a reason to violate originating principles of tolerance for all sexualities.  I think you've shown anything but.  Nobody called anybody a hero, but you felt the need to respond with puh-leeze, make a strawman, and show your true colors again.  I'm glad to know I was right about you in the Duke thread.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: finally on May 19, 2006, 01:23:20 PM
I've learned a lot on this thread!  Thanks guys and gals  :)

got you ana11y curious, huh?

prevert

no my {freaky} dear!   just was curious about "being curious"
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 19, 2006, 01:25:36 PM
id bet alot of people are curious...

i just dont find guys attractive...
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: AtlantaSteve on May 19, 2006, 01:31:00 PM
There are a lot of people who aren't heroes in this world AtlantaSteve, you should work on going after them too .  Anyone who has to enter a conversation saying "I'm as tolerant as the next" probably isn't and I think your purposly bad analogies show this. 

My original point, to which you've done a bad job of responding, was that there is no need to demonize those who express themselves in this manner.  I mentioned how the movement has changed, but that nobody should accept that as a reason to violate originating principles of tolerance for all sexualities.  I think you've shown anything but.  Nobody called anybody a hero, but you felt the need to respond with puh-leeze, make a strawman, and show your true colors again.  I'm glad to know I was right about you in the Duke thread.

Do I know you?!?  By "the Duke thread", I assume you're referring to one of the two or three different threads that sprounted up about the lacrosse team.  The fact that I don't recall you or which "side" you were on is due to the fact that I had disagreements with both sides discussing that issue, because I was far less of looney-tunes extremist than most people posting there (case in point). "I'm glad to know I was right about you...", geeze, do you have any idea how childish that sounds?

You're going more than a bit overboard here.  I drew analogies between homosexuals acting out other's negative stereotypes of themselves, and two minority groups theoretically doing the same.  If you failed to understand the point being made, then you should probably work on your knee-jerk reflexes before you have to deal with problem-solving in law school.  There are also key differences between "tolerance" and "acceptance".  You can tolerate a behavior (without "demonizing" anybody) while simultaneously declining to accept the behavior as decent or healthy, and this distinction does not make you a bigot or hatemonger of any kind.

To illustrate, I believe that explicit sexual expression in public is poor behavior (and I apply that standard to ALL groups).  At the same time, I think driving a Hummer is poor behavior... it doesn't mean I "make strawmen" or "demonize" SUV owners.  Alot of people are putting in their 2-cents to say that discussion makes more out the issue than what's really there, and I couldn't agree more.  I've already stated three times that the people we're arguing over make up probably less than 1% of participants and are not representative.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: finally on May 19, 2006, 01:43:42 PM
id bet alot of people are curious...

i just dont find guys attractive...

and I don't find women attractive.  I just find it fascinating that one could be "curious".  If I were lesbian or bi, I would find that infuriating.   
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: H4CS on May 19, 2006, 01:44:14 PM
Do I know you?!?

Abbreviations are tough, I know.

Quote
You're going more than a bit overboard here.  I drew analogies between homosexuals acting out other's negative stereotypes of themselves, and two minority groups theoretically doing the same.  If you failed to understand the point being made, then you should probably work on your knee-jerk reflexes before you have to deal with problem-solving in law school. 

Oh bull.  I wrote that post-stonewall the movement was about the termination of accepted modes of sexuality while it's now more about rights.  You turned around and did exactly what I accused others of doing and you continue to do so.  The whole point is that there should not be stereotypes about sexuality, that's what people were fighting for.  The civil rights movement was not about fighting for people to be looters, it's what so offensive about your analogies.  The fact that you dislike that an extremely small and nonthreatening group of people want to express themselves this way means there's still work to be done.  I was merely arguing that people shouldn't demonize those that choose to continue this tradition and that's all you continue to do.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 19, 2006, 01:45:03 PM
id bet alot of people are curious...

i just dont find guys attractive...

and I don't find women attractive.  I just find it fascinating that one could be "curious".  If I were lesbian or bi, I would find that infuriating.   

im not sure i understand you  ???
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: finally on May 19, 2006, 01:58:40 PM
id bet alot of people are curious...

i just dont find guys attractive...

and I don't find women attractive.  I just find it fascinating that one could be "curious".  If I were lesbian or bi, I would find that infuriating.   
im not sure i understand you  ???

Well, what I'm saying is that I would find it insulting (if I were lesbian or bisexual) for someone to be "toying" around with bisexuality or homosexuality when in fact they aren't.  It's hard enough meeting good people whether you are bisexual, heterosexual, or homosexual; for somebody to be just wasting time toying with someone's emotions.   I'd take it as an insult, but that's just me, I guess.     
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 19, 2006, 02:01:13 PM
Well, what I'm saying is that I would find it insulting (if I were lesbian or bisexual) for someone to be "toying" around with bisexuality or homosexuality when in fact they aren't.  It's hard enough meeting good people whether you are bisexual, heterosexual, or homosexual; for somebody to be just wasting time toying with someone's emotions.   I'd take it as an insult, but that's just me, I guess.     


they're just on training wheels and need a little push to get going.   ;)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 19, 2006, 02:01:52 PM
id bet alot of people are curious...

i just dont find guys attractive...

and I don't find women attractive.  I just find it fascinating that one could be "curious".  If I were lesbian or bi, I would find that infuriating.   
im not sure i understand you  ???

Well, what I'm saying is that I would find it insulting (if I were lesbian or bisexual) for someone to be "toying" around with bisexuality or homosexuality when in fact they aren't.  It's hard enough meeting good people whether you are bisexual, heterosexual, or homosexual; for somebody to be just wasting time toying with someone's emotions.   I'd take it as an insult, but that's just me, I guess.     


id disagee with you on that.  i would imagine, but i coulod be wriong, that most people, when they go same s3x, ar curious at the beginning.  trying to find out if thats really how they are?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 19, 2006, 02:05:00 PM
id disagee with you on that.  i would imagine, but i coulod be wriong, that most people, when they go same s3x, ar curious at the beginning.  trying to find out if thats really how they are?

in general, this is true.  they're generally confused and/or repressed.  many come to terms gradually. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 19, 2006, 02:06:19 PM
id bet alot of people are curious...

i just dont find guys attractive...

and I don't find women attractive.  I just find it fascinating that one could be "curious".  If I were lesbian or bi, I would find that infuriating.   
im not sure i understand you  ???

Well, what I'm saying is that I would find it insulting (if I were lesbian or bisexual) for someone to be "toying" around with bisexuality or homosexuality when in fact they aren't.  It's hard enough meeting good people whether you are bisexual, heterosexual, or homosexual; for somebody to be just wasting time toying with someone's emotions.   I'd take it as an insult, but that's just me, I guess.     

I think dishonesty about one's intentions really sucks no matter what form it takes.  But I totally understand people's confusion about the preferred genders of their sexual partners. For me, what I find attractive about people is much less about their private parts and stuff than it is about funny things like crooked noses and big hands.  When I was a teenager, I kind of figured out that this separated me from most (straight) people, and I found a place among the queers I knew -- hence my chosen and bumpy course of lesbianism.  But I have never been insulted by bicurious girl's suggestion that I am such a perfect exemplar of femininity that she could judge her attraction to women by having a few rolls in the hay with me. ;)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 19, 2006, 02:06:30 PM
id disagee with you on that.  i would imagine, but i coulod be wriong, that most people, when they go same s3x, ar curious at the beginning.  trying to find out if thats really how they are?

in general, this is true.  they're generally confused and/or repressed.  many come to terms gradually. 

thats kinda what i thought.

i would imagine maybe some bouncing back and forth b4 reality sets in?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 19, 2006, 02:10:09 PM
i would imagine maybe some bouncing back and forth b4 reality sets in?

if you're honest with yourself, i can't imagine not knowing after once, but self-deception and denial can also play an important role in flip-flopping. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 19, 2006, 02:11:29 PM
i would imagine maybe some bouncing back and forth b4 reality sets in?

if you're honest with yourself, i can't imagine not knowing after once, but self-deception and denial can also play an important role in flip-flopping. 

i have no clue.  ot to be a tough thing to go thru...
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: AtlantaSteve on May 19, 2006, 02:11:46 PM
The whole point is that there should not be stereotypes about sexuality, that's what people were fighting for.  The civil rights movement was not about fighting for people to be looters, it's what so offensive about your analogies. 

Herein lies the crux of our disagreement.  I do not see the aim of the gay pride movement to be destruction of all notions, conceptions, and social mores surrounding sexuality.  The gay rights movement simply wants equal rights and acceptance for consentual adult partnerships, regardless of gender.  That's it. 

You are making the gay rights movement out to be some kind of free-form, nebulous, "Free Love" movement a la the 1960's counter-culture... and that's just not what it is.  It's not about tearing down society's approval of monogomous relationships over promiscuity.  It's not about the advancement of any particular fetish behaviors.  It's not about healing crystals, or wicca, or Tibetan chanting, or the dawning of the Age of Aquarius, or anything else.

As with any movement, there are no doubt subsets that have more expanded or specialized agendas.  However, that does not change the over-arching agenda that the movement holds in common.  You are right... I do not believe that the civil rights movement was about fighting for people's rights to be looters.  I also do not believe that the gay rights movement is about total sexual relativism, that's NOT what they're fighting for.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: H4CS on May 19, 2006, 02:20:11 PM
Herein lies the crux of our disagreement. 

No, the problem is that you don't know history, nor can you read.  There are these things called tenses, you might want to learn how they work.  I said that the movement had once stood for these issues and that there is no need to cannibalize the past for the current trend of equal rights.  You still don't get it. 

EDIT: Trogdor's point is important.  When I say "the movement had once stood" I meant that there was more generalized support than I see now, but that's just my own reading.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 19, 2006, 02:24:02 PM
The whole point is that there should not be stereotypes about sexuality, that's what people were fighting for.  The civil rights movement was not about fighting for people to be looters, it's what so offensive about your analogies. 

Herein lies the crux of our disagreement.  I do not see the aim of the gay pride movement to be destruction of all notions, conceptions, and social mores surrounding sexuality.  The gay rights movement simply wants equal rights and acceptance for consentual adult partnerships, regardless of gender.  That's it. 

You are making the gay rights movement out to be some kind of free-form, nebulous, "Free Love" movement a la the 1960's counter-culture... and that's just not what it is.  It's not about tearing down society's approval of monogomous relationships over promiscuity.  It's not about the advancement of any particular fetish behaviors.  It's not about healing crystals, or wicca, or Tibetan chanting, or the dawning of the Age of Aquarius, or anything else.

As with any movement, there are no doubt subsets that have more expanded or specialized agendas.  However, that does not change the over-arching agenda that the movement holds in common.  You are right... I do not believe that the civil rights movement was about fighting for people's rights to be looters.  I also do not believe that the gay rights movement is about complete sexual relativism, the agenda is more narrowly focused.


AtlantaSteve, here I think you're wrong.  There are several things that you might, from the outside, call the "gay pride movement" -- two dominant strains being queer liberation and gay rights.  They actually want completely different things.  And while I see the value of (most) gay rights strategies as securing temporary toeholds in society for some gays and lesbians, I am more interested, long term, in busting the whole thing up.  I think sexuality is too central to questions of morality, family organization, and gender and everything else.  And I don't believe people will open themselves up to a full range of kinship and other relationships, bodily pleasures, etc.until we unlock or redraw these connections.  But that's perhaps just me.

I realize this probably sounds absurd to most of you.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 19, 2006, 02:25:53 PM
i liked the part about bodily pleasures....


algough, i doubt youll get many straights trying out the "other side"

wooooooooooo
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 19, 2006, 02:26:37 PM
Herein lies the crux of our disagreement.  I do not see the aim of the gay pride movement to be destruction of all notions, conceptions, and social mores surrounding sexuality.  The gay rights movement simply wants equal rights and acceptance for consentual adult partnerships, regardless of gender.  That's it. 

You are making the gay rights movement out to be some kind of free-form, nebulous, "Free Love" movement a la the 1960's counter-culture... and that's just not what it is.  It's not about tearing down society's approval of monogomous relationships over promiscuity.  It's not about the advancement of any particular fetish behaviors.  It's not about healing crystals, or wicca, or Tibetan chanting, or the dawning of the Age of Aquarius, or anything else.

As with any movement, there are no doubt subsets that have more expanded or specialized agendas.  However, that does not change the over-arching agenda that the movement holds in common.  You are right... I do not believe that the civil rights movement was about fighting for people's rights to be looters.  I also do not believe that the gay rights movement is about total sexual relativism, that's NOT what they're fighting for.


you make it sound like it's some organization called THE GAY RIGHTS MOVEMENT with a set charter, mission statement, and a linear path for accomplishments.  the thing about movements is that they ARE nebulous!  most gay people will tell you that yes, they want rights such as the right to marry, adopt, etc., but that's generally not ALL they want.  for many, it's not just about legal recognition.  it's about cultural change as well.  rights are merely legal benefits.  homophobia is far more intractable than a piece of paper that says a union is between a man and a woman.  the point that you seem to be missing is that ALL of these expressions may have some part to play in the grander scheme of things, regardless of whether they are representative of the majority.  policing people's morality by passing judgment on them as freaks and fetishists accomplishes nothing positive. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: finally on May 19, 2006, 02:27:32 PM
"But I have never been insulted by bicurious girl's suggestion that I am such a perfect exemplar of femininity that she could judge her attraction to women by having a few rolls in the hay with me. "

LOL.  You are hilarious, Miss P!  But what I was really talking about was, well for example,  Ellen (DeGenres)'s relationship with Anne Heche.  To me, she was faking it for the publicity.  I'm talking about the dishonest people.  I think that they should say upfront that they are merely "curious" to stop any hurt feelings.  
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 19, 2006, 02:30:49 PM
"But I have never been insulted by bicurious girl's suggestion that I am such a perfect exemplar of femininity that she could judge her attraction to women by having a few rolls in the hay with me. "

LOL.  You are hilarious, Miss P!  But what I was really talking about was, well for example,  Ellen (DeGenres)'s relationship with Anne Heche.  To me, she was faking it for the publicity.  I'm talking about the dishonest people.  I think that they should say upfront that they are merely "curious" to stop any hurt feelings.  

see i dont see it like that.

but i dont see love as a
'forever' thing either

they were in love for awhile.  things wnt sour, she moved on.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 19, 2006, 02:39:35 PM
I don't think it's true in general. It is true in some cases. But I'd say the majority of gays I meet say they have always known. But there are definitely some who can't "figure it out" until they are in their 30's or 40's. Personally, I don't see what in the h*ll there is to figure out. If you like girls you might as well be str8, it's a lot easier. And if you don't, can't you tell??

well, i think a lot of people do a good job confusing themselves.  i mostly think its due to repression/denial, like i said, not really objective confusion.  however, just because you think you're attracted to people of the same sex doesn't mean that you aren't trying to figure out whether that really translates into you wanting to be with them sexually, etc.  again, this isn't necessarily objective/disinterested confusion.  it seems more self-imposed. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: finally on May 19, 2006, 02:59:55 PM
"But I have never been insulted by bicurious girl's suggestion that I am such a perfect exemplar of femininity that she could judge her attraction to women by having a few rolls in the hay with me. "

LOL.  You are hilarious, Miss P!  But what I was really talking about was, well for example,  Ellen (DeGenres)'s relationship with Anne Heche.  To me, she was faking it for the publicity.  I'm talking about the dishonest people.  I think that they should say upfront that they are merely "curious" to stop any hurt feelings.  

see i dont see it like that.

but i dont see love as a
'forever' thing either

they were in love for awhile.  things wnt sour, she moved on.


is it just me or does this thread have 2 conversations going on at the same time?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: AtlantaSteve on May 19, 2006, 03:05:57 PM
And while I see the value of (most) gay rights strategies as securing temporary toeholds in society for some gays and lesbians, I am more interested, long term, in busting the whole thing up. 

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "busting the whole thing up"?  My point of contention with H4CS is that he/she/it made it sound like they were arguing for the removal of ALL social mores surrounding sexuality.  In other words, that society should have no difference in its approval of promiscuity vs. monogamy, safe sex vs. irresponsible practice, healthy personal boundaries vs. acting out, etc.  I simply don't believe that such a position is wise, nor that it is a prerequisite for gay rights or acceptance.  I'm talking about certain values that are shared by most homosexuals... yet it seems like I'm being attacked and called a bigot for it, and it's simply not right.


***EDIT*** On reflection, maybe this is less a political thing and more an age/generational thing.  I'm in my mid-30's with a family today, whereas I get the impression that H4CS is a recent undergrad.  When I was in my early-20's, I looked at monogamy as a "frumpy" choice for people who were "uptight", I didn't see the big deal if I had sex without protection "only once in a awhile", and I could act out a bit at parties.  As I got older I started seeing those notions as being childish, that there is some wisdom to structures and values.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 19, 2006, 03:16:33 PM
And while I see the value of (most) gay rights strategies as securing temporary toeholds in society for some gays and lesbians, I am more interested, long term, in busting the whole thing up. 

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "busting the whole thing up"?  My point of contention with H4CS is that he/she/it made it sound like they were arguing for the removal of ALL social mores surrounding sexuality.  In other words, that society should have no difference in its approval of promiscuity vs. monogamy, safe sex vs. irresponsible practice, healthy personal boundaries vs. acting out, etc.  I simply don't believe that such a position is wise, nor that it is a prerequisite for gay rights or acceptance.  I'm talking about certain values that are shared by most homosexuals, yet it seems like I'm being attacked and called a bigot for it.  I feel like this is simply not right.


Yes, that's actually precisely what I meant.  That we can have health concerns (such as not exchanging certain bodily fluids or universal health insurance) and moral concerns (such as honesty) and aesthetic concerns (such as, that's a trashy-looking leopard print G-string if I ever saw one), and some of these will involve sexual behaviors.  But when you're concerned about promiscuity vs. monogamy, what are you really concerned about?  Fidelity?  Health?  The sanctity of a relationship before God? The fact that it sometimes gets confusing to juggle a few different girls?  Why not tackle these on their actual bases rather than making it into a much bigger moral question?

Also, it's important to remember that sexual behavior is not necessarily a question of identity.  I mean, in our version of things, it definitely is, and as a political creature, I see some value to that.  But I think it's more fun to imagine a world where people's identities and preferences are much more fluid.   

Finally, I am playing good cop, here, remember.  I certainly never called you a bigot or anything else.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 19, 2006, 03:18:39 PM
Yes, that's actually precisely what I meant.  That we can have health concerns (such as not exchanging certain bodily fluids or universal health insurance) and moral concerns (such as honesty) and aesthetic concerns (such as, that's a trashy-looking leopard print G-string if I ever saw one), and some of these will involve sexual behaviors.  But when you're concerned about promiscuity vs. monogamy, what are you really concerned about?  Fidelity?  Health?  The sanctity of a relationship before God? The fact that it sometimes gets confusing to juggle a few different girls?  Why not tackle these on their actual bases rather than making it into a much bigger moral question?

Also, it's important to remember that sexual behavior is not necessarily a question of identity.  I mean, in our version of things, it definitely is, and as a political creature, I see some value to that.  But I think it's more fun to imagine a world where people's identities and preferences are much more fluid.   

Finally, I am playing good cop, here, remember.  I certainly never called you a bigot or anything else.

you've been reading too much from judith butler. ;)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: AtlantaSteve on May 19, 2006, 03:20:31 PM
is it just me or does this thread have 2 conversations going on at the same time?

Yes, I think some of us are ignoring the gay pride/public nudity/political action convo because that subject is totally boring...

I've never seen an interesting LSD thread before with less than 3 or 4 parallel trains of thought.  :)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 19, 2006, 03:21:24 PM
you've been reading too much from judith butler. ;)

Not in years, actually, but I know this sounds like a very off-price crib sheet.
Redemption, Redemption, I've found you a friend!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: H4CS on May 19, 2006, 03:23:08 PM
you've been reading too much from judith butler. ;)

Not in years, actually, but I know this sounds like a very off-price crib sheet.
Redemption, Redemption, I've found you a friend!

She ran off to an ATM, she'll be back soon.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Redsparow1 on May 19, 2006, 03:23:55 PM
you mean like the straight folks at mardi gras??

You might not have made it to the gay side (The music is better) its a deadlock with the heteros, or New Orleans for Halloween.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 19, 2006, 03:27:14 PM
"But I have never been insulted by bicurious girl's suggestion that I am such a perfect exemplar of femininity that she could judge her attraction to women by having a few rolls in the hay with me. "

LOL.  You are hilarious, Miss P!  But what I was really talking about was, well for example,  Ellen (DeGenres)'s relationship with Anne Heche.  To me, she was faking it for the publicity.  I'm talking about the dishonest people.  I think that they should say upfront that they are merely "curious" to stop any hurt feelings.  

see i dont see it like that.

but i dont see love as a
'forever' thing either

they were in love for awhile.  things wnt sour, she moved on.


I don't know.  From what I can tell as a way-outsider on this one (I don't even know any blondes), Anne Heche was pretty shady the way she dealt with Ellen.  I don't know if it was all as easy as their being in love for a while.  But let bygones be bygones: Heche is stuck starring in a new television show with a perfectly loathesome description (http://www.abcmedianet.com/showpage/showpage.html?program_id=CB2216&type=lead) and Ellen is dating Portia.  :D
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: aerynn on May 19, 2006, 03:44:45 PM
Do you see sexual orientation as binary or a continuum?  By that I mean is it Gay vs. Straight or more of a Totally gay >>>>> Bi sexual <<<<< Totally straight?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 19, 2006, 03:57:14 PM
isnt there a 7point scale, with few at the ends?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: joespecial on May 19, 2006, 04:07:03 PM
Well, I like it better than ternary. But I like quaternary the best.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: aerynn on May 19, 2006, 04:08:01 PM
Do you see sexual orientation as binary or a continuum?  By that I mean is it Gay vs. Straight or more of a Totally gay >>>>> Bi sexual <<<<< Totally straight?


I don't know. It's not a continuum for me, personally, it's binary.

I think it's hard when you are totally gay (or totally straight) to understand that there can be this "mushy middle" of people whose sexuality is fluid. It seems flaky, or maybe like they are lying or deluding themselves, which I think a lot of people suspect, but you can never really know.

That said, I imagine there are some people whose sexuality is very fluid, but I bet there are an even larger number of people who present themselves that way who really just aren't being honest. That study (http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20714FB3B550C768CDDAE0894DD404482) where they tested guys' physical reactions to images of men or women kind of said it all: all the testees were basically aroused by one or the other, not both.

"The psychologists found that men who identified themselves as bisexual were in fact exclusively aroused by either one sex or the other, usually by other men."

I find this idea really interesting.  I think that the base, gut reaction may be binary, but that by developing a relationship with someone, you can learn to appreciate a person who is other than your naturally prefered gender.  If that makes sense . . .
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: aerynn on May 19, 2006, 04:39:33 PM
I think that the base, gut reaction may be binary, but that by developing a relationship with someone, you can learn to appreciate a person who is other than your naturally prefered gender.  If that makes sense . . .

Yes, but come on. There is a difference between physical or romantic attraction and just getting really close with someone mentally. People need to differentiate between the two.

It seems like sometimes people who are really emotionally needy are the most likely to get confused, because filling that need is the most important thing and whether there is anything physical is secondary.

Emotionally needy or having a low physical sex drive.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 19, 2006, 04:58:55 PM
It seems like sometimes people who are really emotionally needy are the most likely to get confused, because filling that need is the most important thing and whether there is anything physical is secondary.

Emotionally needy or having a low physical sex drive.

Oh, come on!  This is getting silly.  I understand that our whole culture is divided up into boys and girls and for several years now we've been identified as girls-who-like-girls, girls-who-like-boys and so on.  For some people this really rings true.  But really, some others just find different things attractive at different times.  And some people's desires align along traits other than gender and sex.  There's nothing "confused" or non-sexual or emotionally needy about it.  I'm just more interested in what you're going to do to me than what you'll do it with.  And a hole is a hole is a hole.  It's not so mystical.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: aerynn on May 19, 2006, 05:04:30 PM
It seems like sometimes people who are really emotionally needy are the most likely to get confused, because filling that need is the most important thing and whether there is anything physical is secondary.

Emotionally needy or having a low physical sex drive.

Oh, come on!  This is getting silly.  I understand that our whole culture is divided up into boys and girls and for several years now we've been identified as girls-who-like-girls, girls-who-like-boys and so on.  For some people this really rings true.  But really, some others just find different things attractive at different times.  And some people's desires align along traits other than gender and sex.  There's nothing "confused" or non-sexual or emotionally needy about it.  I'm just more interested in what you're going to do to me than what you'll do it with.  And a hole is a hole is a hole.  It's not so mystical.

When I said "low physical sex drive" meant that your sex drive isn't based on flesh or physicality.

Sometimes when a girl lists "sense of humor" as the #1 most attractive trait, she really means it.  ;)  It isn't tied to particulars of biology.

But Miss P, do you find yourself with a "reflex" sexual preference, or is it more based on a person as an individual and you happen to find women are more likely to be that sort of individual?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 19, 2006, 05:24:02 PM
It seems like sometimes people who are really emotionally needy are the most likely to get confused, because filling that need is the most important thing and whether there is anything physical is secondary.

Emotionally needy or having a low physical sex drive.

Oh, come on!  This is getting silly.  I understand that our whole culture is divided up into boys and girls and for several years now we've been identified as girls-who-like-girls, girls-who-like-boys and so on.  For some people this really rings true.  But really, some others just find different things attractive at different times.  And some people's desires align along traits other than gender and sex.  There's nothing "confused" or non-sexual or emotionally needy about it.  I'm just more interested in what you're going to do to me than what you'll do it with.  And a hole is a hole is a hole.  It's not so mystical.

When I said "low physical sex drive" meant that your sex drive isn't based on flesh or physicality.

Sometimes when a girl lists "sense of humor" as the #1 most attractive trait, she really means it.  ;)  It isn't tied to particulars of biology.

But Miss P, do you find yourself with a "reflex" sexual preference, or is it more based on a person as an individual and you happen to find women are more likely to be that sort of individual?

Oh, sorry, I had misunderstood.  But in my view physical characteristics are sometimes very important, just not necessarily genitals or breasts specifically.  I have mentioned my unwavering attraction to big hands; I'll leave that at that.  But, you know, I've gone through phases when everyone who seemed hot was a girl or when I liked people with long hair or when I couldn't imagine doing certain sexual acts.  Haven't we all?  Maybe not.

Just like everyone else, my physical preferences combine with other social preferences (such as sense of humor or politics or nerdiness or confidence or whatever) to form sexual attraction, which sometimes binds enduring relationships.  For whatever reason, the people I find most attractive (and with whom I have had the longest relationships) tend to be clustered in queer communities, but these range from other femme-identified queer women to trans men to the butchest of gay men (alas, it seems this last bunch is the least likely to want to have sex with me).  Does that make sense? 

Oh, what does it matter...  This is not all about me, after all.  :D


Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 19, 2006, 05:35:22 PM
Oh, sorry, I had misunderstood.  But in my view physical characteristics are sometimes very important, just not necessarily genitals or breasts specifically.  I have mentioned my unwavering attraction to big hands; I'll leave that at that.  But, you know, I've gone through phases when everyone who seemed hot was a girl or when I liked people with long hair or when I couldn't imagine doing certain sexual acts.  Haven't we all?  Maybe not.

Just like everyone else, my physical preferences combine with other social preferences (such as sense of humor or politics or nerdiness or confidence or whatever) to form sexual attraction, which sometimes binds enduring relationships.  For whatever reason, the people I find most attractive (and with whom I have had the longest relationships) tend to be clustered in queer communities, but these range from other femme-identified queer women to trans men to the butchest of gay men (alas, it seems this last bunch is the least likely to want to have sex with me).  Does that make sense? 

Oh, what does it matter...  This is not all about me, after all.  :D

this is truly interesting. like bonkers, i have a VERY difficult time escaping the confines of binary gender identity.  i have sampled the world of women and found it to be lacking... haha... though, from looking at studies, women appear to be more fluid in their sexuality than men.  you are quite intriguing miss p simply because i cannot comprehend what it must be like. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 19, 2006, 05:38:22 PM
you are quite intriguing miss p simply because i cannot comprehend what it must be like. 

Thank you!  And you don't even know what a mess it is in here.  The sex stuff is the least of my worries.  

But anyway, this was Bonkers' thread.  I've been shouting too much and my throat hurts.  

I'm sorry, Bonkers, if I hijacked your thread to talk about these things.  You can keep me quiet by sending me hot pictures of your hands.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 19, 2006, 05:39:06 PM
And a hole is a hole is a hole.

Eww... I really hope they don't choose that as the slogan of next year's Pride.

You're right.  It's disgusting.  Mea culpa.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 19, 2006, 05:43:08 PM
It's sort of like a cocktail party but without the cocktails ...

Speak for yourself, dear.  Gulp.

EDIT sorry for the bad quoting earlier -- must've been the drink.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 19, 2006, 05:47:42 PM
so what's the dating "scene" look like in la bonkers? 

EDIT:  yes, i did just create a contraction out of "what" and "does".  don't judge me!  :)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 19, 2006, 05:56:32 PM
If you mean "L.A." as in Los Angeles, I don't know, I graduated in the 1990's and I have lived in San Francisco most of that time. Except when I lived in "LA," Louisiana, where the dating scene is fine. Less selection, but people are more into relationships and there is less temptation if you do get in one.

In San Francisco the dating scene sucks, it's hard to sustain one here. Too many gays and they are always trying to have sex. And it seems like every couple who does stay together spends most of their energy trying to arrange three-ways and/or have sex with others on the side.

sorry, i meant L.A.  i just assumed, unwisely apparently, that you were still in L.A.  i figured it would be pretty "plastic". 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 19, 2006, 06:11:44 PM
is it true...

that there are soooo many gay men in the bay area, the straight women go lacking?

one of my moms freinds daughetrs left there cause she was having a hrd time finding a guy.

or so she said.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 19, 2006, 06:20:00 PM
is it true...

that there are soooo many gay men in the bay area, the straight women go lacking?

one of my moms freinds daughetrs left there cause she was having a hrd time finding a guy.

or so she said.

Yes.  Blueb, you should totally go to LS in SF!

dont think im not considering it!!!

Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: finally on May 19, 2006, 11:10:48 PM
is it just me or does this thread have 2 conversations going on at the same time?

Yes, I think some of us are ignoring the gay pride/public nudity/political action convo because that subject is totally boring...

I've never seen an interesting LSD thread before with less than 3 or 4 parallel trains of thought.  :)


yeah but I'm confused, I'll have to admit.  We're all ignoring one convo or the other.  The other conversation is a little boring, sorry guys.  still love u tho!!   :-*
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 20, 2006, 11:01:22 AM
I haven't read the whole thread so I might be repeating a question that has already been answered...and if so, please let me know. Otherwise:

Why do many gay men have an 'accent' ?

I know friends from high school who did not have the 'accent' before they came out but suddenly have it now that they identify as gay. It's baffling to me because I can't see why sexuality should affect the way one talks.

Does anyone here have the 'accent'? Why do you think you talk this way? (is it deliberately affected or just something you can't control?). Have you always talked this way?

I don't mean to be offensive. Just curious.

you know, i am baffled by this myself.  i do not have the 'accent', and i find it to be really annoying.  my only answer is that i think it may have something to do with conforming to the environment in which you spend a lot of your time.  for most gay men, this means other gay men.  so, just like some people pick up a southern accent or another one from being in a place where lots of people speak like that, some gay men develop the 'accent' just from being around others. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: !! on May 20, 2006, 04:46:10 PM

Both of your posts make a lot of sense. It's easy to pick up 'accents'/mannerisms and people do it all the time. Thanks for answering (and not being offended) :)


I see what you're saying, but the "accent" becomes affectatious after a certain point.  Once you've become an adult, your accent is pretty much established.  Sure, if you move to another place you might pick up some regional flair, but if you're older than say, 14 or 15, your actual accent should not change, e.g. Madonna with that ridiculous British accent.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ScoopNY on May 22, 2006, 01:11:21 PM
[b}An article from NY Post about GULC Grad and former NJ Governor Jim McGreevey.[/b]


Jim McGreevey shockingly admits that before he became governor of New Jersey, he'd have anonymous gay sex at Garden State highway rest stops.
"All I knew was that my behavior was getting crazier and crazier," McGreevey says of his torrid truck-stop trysts in an upcoming book that details his tortured life of lies and sexual repression.

"With each new encounter, I was getting nearer and nearer to being caught - which surely would have generated headlines, especially after I became executive director of the state parole board" in the mid-1980s.

"The closet starves a man, and when he gets a chance he gorges till it sickens him," he writes in his book, titled "The Confession."

McGreevey revealed to The Post that he spent time in a psychiatric hospital at an Episcopalian monastery in the Hudson Valley after his stunning resignation as governor in 2004.

And he describes in the book his fruitless attempts to conquer or hide his homosexuality by ogling Playboy centerfolds, frequenting strip clubs and becoming "as avid a womanizer as anybody else on the New Jersey political scene."

"The more the rumors circulated, the more public and brazen I became about my heterosexual conquests," the twice-married father-of-two writes.

All that came to naught when he resigned amid rumors of an affair with a male appointee, Golan Cipel. He then declared proudly, "I am a gay American,"

His wife, Dina, and his parents stood at his side.

His turgidly written tale, whose subject matter sometimes seems better suited to a sleazy dime-store paperback than to a former governor's memoir, is due to be published next fall by Regan Books.

Excerpts from the tome - for which McGreevey reportedly will be paid up to $500,000 - were printed yesterday by The Star-Ledger of Newark after the newspaper obtained them at a publishing-industry convention in Washington.

McGreevey, who is now separated from Dina, currently lives with his boyfriend, financial adviser Mark O'Donnell.

McGreevey writes that he was aware he was gay at a young age. While his parents' working-class Irish-Catholic identity comforted him, he knew "deep down . . . that this American ideal excluded me."

At one point, he told The Post, he considered entering the Catholic priesthood because he hoped its vow of chastity would solve the dilemma.

He also writes that while he had a "great number of heterosexual experiences" while attending St. Joseph's all boys high school in Metuchen, "I can't say I was interested in girls sexually."

"Yet I liked the physical contact, craved it even," McGreevey writes.

In 1983, while attending a political conference in Atlantic City that was rife with sexual pick-ups, McGreevey got soused in an Irish pub and had an epiphany.

"I knew I would have to lie for the rest of my life - and I knew I was capable of it. The knowledge gave me a feeling of terrible power," he writes.

McGreevey felt such shame, he writes, that he "split in two" - living on the one hand a life "that stands for tradition and values and America," and another life that he pretended to ignore as "something spoiled, something disgusting."

But that duality only made his problem worse, and also made his forays into the world of illicit sex more risky and degrading.

"In my case it went from the simple passions of a young adult - for physical and romantic love and happiness - to a particularly rank, unfulfilling variety of lust. I felt it get ranker and less fulfilling with each passing year," he writes.

McGreevey longed to have a healthy relationship with another man, "with someone I love," whom he could kiss, hug and with whom he could plan a life together.

"I used to make long lists of guys I had crushes on, scribbling their names like a teenager," he writes. "But I never allowed my conquests to be anything like that.

"As glorious and meaningful as it would have been to have a loving and sound sexual experience with another man, I knew I had to undo my happiness step by step as I began chasing my dream of a public career and the kind of 'acceptable' life that went with it.

"So instead, I settled for the detached anonymity of the bookstores and rest stops - a compromise, but one that was wholly unfulfilling and morally unsatisfactory."

Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: joespecial on May 22, 2006, 02:30:59 PM
McGreevey is hottt. I'm buying the book.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ScoopNY on May 22, 2006, 03:59:19 PM
Quote
That is a little harsh. We live in a homophobic society that is not really fond of electing openly gay people to public office. Maybe he wanted to f*ck things up from the inside...

You are beyond generous. Not only did he have two beards (his last wife was his second wife) but he came out of the closet in the midst of another corruption scandal thereby using his gayness as a shield so people wouldn't talk about how bad a governor he actually was.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ScoopNY on May 22, 2006, 04:22:33 PM
Quote
Listen, I ain't no East Coaster so I don't know all the details on McGreevey.

Yeah see that's the whole problem I had with L'affaire McGreevey, as soon as it spread past New Jersey all the stories about corruption would fade away and all you'd be left with is how the governor came out of the closet and resigned.

Let's put it another way, just one example of his corruption was Golan Cipel. Six months after 9/11 after hundreds of people died from New Jersey in the worst terrorist attack in the nation's history, the governor appoints his unqualified boyfriend as head of homeland security. Cipel not only didn't do the job but couldn't because as a foreign national he couldn't get security clearance. Not to mention the fact he was unqualified for the job, being a PR professional. WTF kind of judgement is that? Not to mention all the cronies he put in office that just raped the state treasury. I could go on because I worked in Jersey and know the McGreevey story pretty well. I've actually met the man on several occassions and he's a very nice guy. But his administration was a total disaster. In truth, I think he wanted to get caught to finally force himself out of the closet. It's sad and pathetic and depressing all at once.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ScoopNY on May 22, 2006, 07:39:19 PM
Quote
I am just playing devil's advocate at this point because obviously McGreevey had his faults and issues... but does it really matter who is head of homeland security for New Jersey? I mean come on...

Yes, if the guy can't even get security clearance to do the job.

And McGreevey was never snooty, he's a real down to earth guy and I felt honestly bad for what he did to himself. I've never seen anyone self-destruct is quite so sad a way. He ran a brillant campaign for governor but once he got into office just fell apart. His internal conflicts finally caught up with him.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dividebyzero on May 22, 2006, 07:41:55 PM
Q: What's the deal with diva worship? Seriously...
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dividebyzero on May 22, 2006, 08:11:28 PM
Q: What's the deal with diva worship? Seriously...

I think there are two primary kinds of divas:

(1) Wounded souls who cry out in pain, and vow never to be hurt again; and

(2) Divas who are just very strong women and have never taken any sh!t from day one.

Some gay men idolize both, some one or the other, though I think any gay man can at least appreciate and understand both. I think it is a rare gay who can hear the words, "First I was afraid, I was petrified..." and not stand rock still and prick up his ears.

LOL  :D, I knew it was the Gay national anthem!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ScoopNY on May 22, 2006, 08:14:48 PM
Quote
Q: What's the deal with diva worship? Seriously...

This simple answer is this: back in the day, before gay liberation, gay men could sing love songs by women without having to change the words and many female singers embraced this audience (Judy Garland, Bette Midler, Patti LaBelle, later Madonna and Janet Jackson). This lovefest continues to this day.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: aerynn on May 22, 2006, 08:28:40 PM
What about the stereotype that many gay men had strong mothers and weak fathers?  Someone who was raised with that dynamic may be particularly enamoured with the diva, because it reminds him of his strong mother prevailing against the world and most especially the flawed father figure.

I mean, if you are going with the stereotype that gay men love divas, why not the stereotype of the strong mother?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ScoopNY on May 22, 2006, 08:35:02 PM
Quote
Maybe they just like the music?

Heresy! But you are correct. Plus, a lot of these divas, particularly the Madonnas of the world and all the disco divas found their muse in the gay community so it's no surprised a lot of gay people like their music. Bette Midler used to perform in bathhouses before she hit it big (a young Barry Manilow was her pianist).
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 23, 2006, 12:50:34 AM
is it true...

that there are soooo many gay men in the bay area, the straight women go lacking?

one of my moms freinds daughetrs left there cause she was having a hrd time finding a guy.

or so she said.
This is true IMO.

I know way more great single women out here than great single men.
My experience on the Bay Area dating scene: Straight men with jobs think they are really special and that women should be thrilled at the opportunity have a chance with them.

I recruited my boyfriend from out of state.  The funny thing is, according to him, there are a lot of nice straight men where he is from (Memphis) and a lot of skanky women. Of course I haven't been there so I can't verify that.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 23, 2006, 12:52:19 AM
is it true...

that there are soooo many gay men in the bay area, the straight women go lacking?

one of my moms freinds daughetrs left there cause she was having a hrd time finding a guy.

or so she said.

Yes.  Blueb, you should totally go to LS in SF!

dont think im not considering it!!!



OK Blue, if you come to the Bay Area, be NICE. None of this "Look at me, I'm straight AND employed."
That sh!t gets old.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 23, 2006, 01:01:32 AM
you are quite intriguing miss p simply because i cannot comprehend what it must be like. 

Thank you!  And you don't even know what a mess it is in here.  The sex stuff is the least of my worries. 

But anyway, this was Bonkers' thread.  I've been shouting too much and my throat hurts. 

I'm sorry, Bonkers, if I hijacked your thread to talk about these things.  You can keep me quiet by sending me hot pictures of your hands.

OK MissP I know this is not your thread but you've got me wondering too about the whole sex thing.
Like for me, I see a really attractive man and I get a gut level primal hunger/shock wave feeling.
It's an instantaneous thing -- no "thought" going on there.
And, while I have found some women attractive and can understand your "a hole is a hole" theory, I don't get that instantaneous "wow" feeling around females.

For a long time I just assumed that all people felt that gut-level reaction toward attractive (name your preference here). However, I have a female friend who doesn't feel that.  For a long time I wondered if she was a lesbian, because I just had trouble imagining a woman not having a gut reaction to handsome men. But my friend apparently prefers men.

Perhaps my "instinctive" reaction is not as common as I thought?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 23, 2006, 05:43:13 AM
you are quite intriguing miss p simply because i cannot comprehend what it must be like. 

Thank you!  And you don't even know what a mess it is in here.  The sex stuff is the least of my worries. 

But anyway, this was Bonkers' thread.  I've been shouting too much and my throat hurts. 

I'm sorry, Bonkers, if I hijacked your thread to talk about these things.  You can keep me quiet by sending me hot pictures of your hands.

OK MissP I know this is not your thread but you've got me wondering too about the whole sex thing.
Like for me, I see a really attractive man and I get a gut level primal hunger/shock wave feeling.
It's an instantaneous thing -- no "thought" going on there.
And, while I have found some women attractive and can understand your "a hole is a hole" theory, I don't get that instantaneous "wow" feeling around females.

For a long time I just assumed that all people felt that gut-level reaction toward attractive (name your preference here). However, I have a female friend who doesn't feel that.  For a long time I wondered if she was a lesbian, because I just had trouble imagining a woman not having a gut reaction to handsome men. But my friend apparently prefers men.

Perhaps my "instinctive" reaction is not as common as I thought?

It's probably common, but not universal. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 23, 2006, 06:22:04 AM
is it true...

that there are soooo many gay men in the bay area, the straight women go lacking?

one of my moms freinds daughetrs left there cause she was having a hrd time finding a guy.

or so she said.

Yes.  Blueb, you should totally go to LS in SF!

dont think im not considering it!!!



OK Blue, if you come to the Bay Area, be NICE. None of this "Look at me, I'm straight AND employed."
That sh!t gets old.


umm, i was actually planning on getting that printed on a t-shirt.  maybe some business cards....
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 23, 2006, 07:20:54 AM
OK MissP I know this is not your thread but you've got me wondering too about the whole sex thing.
Like for me, I see a really attractive man and I get a gut level primal hunger/shock wave feeling.
It's an instantaneous thing -- no "thought" going on there.
And, while I have found some women attractive and can understand your "a hole is a hole" theory, I don't get that instantaneous "wow" feeling around females.

For a long time I just assumed that all people felt that gut-level reaction toward attractive (name your preference here). However, I have a female friend who doesn't feel that.  For a long time I wondered if she was a lesbian, because I just had trouble imagining a woman not having a gut reaction to handsome men. But my friend apparently prefers men.

Perhaps my "instinctive" reaction is not as common as I thought?


Maybe it has to do with 1) how "straight" someone is and 2) how strong their sex drive is. I think that women exclusively sexually attracted to men are more likely to experience that powerful, mindless ZING of passion. Also, I think that women with stronger sex drives will also be more likely to feel that ZING. It wasn't until my sex drive revved up when I was around 20 that I knew what it was to look at a hot guy and get incredibly hot in a purely physical, utterly mindless way (TMI? :D). 

and now you have SOME kind of idea how i walk around, all day.....
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 23, 2006, 07:24:48 AM
and now you have SOME kind of idea how i walk around, all day.....

 :D Someone needs to pin you down and inject you with some depo provera or something :P You have sex on the brain 24/7.
:P

many guys do.

just few are willing to admit it.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 23, 2006, 09:25:10 AM
OK MissP I know this is not your thread but you've got me wondering too about the whole sex thing.
Like for me, I see a really attractive man and I get a gut level primal hunger/shock wave feeling.
It's an instantaneous thing -- no "thought" going on there.
And, while I have found some women attractive and can understand your "a hole is a hole" theory, I don't get that instantaneous "wow" feeling around females.

For a long time I just assumed that all people felt that gut-level reaction toward attractive (name your preference here). However, I have a female friend who doesn't feel that.  For a long time I wondered if she was a lesbian, because I just had trouble imagining a woman not having a gut reaction to handsome men. But my friend apparently prefers men.

Perhaps my "instinctive" reaction is not as common as I thought?

I don't really know one way or another about whether your reaction is common, but I would assume it is.  But it's probably not universal, as Lily said.

As for me (me me me!), I feel it!  I think the only difference is that I feel it toward both men and women, maybe women a bit more often, I don't know.  So it's not tied to them being attractive specimens of their gender, just tied to them being attractive specimens.  (From there, I've generally chosen to form relationships within queer communities, because I feel more at home there.  Which is why I call myself a dyke or lesbian much more often than I call myself bisexual.)  Does that make sense?

In any case, in response to Lady Trojan, I don't think it has to do with one's straightness or gayness, but it probably is just a reflection of one's sex drive.

Also, no one has sent me hot pictures of their hands yet, and I'm disappointed.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 23, 2006, 09:29:37 AM
Also, no one has sent me hot pictures of their hands yet, and I'm disappointed.

i just can't get over this... so do tell us, what is it about hands that really gets you goin?  you said you like them big, but what else? there must be some other defining attributes to sexy hands or it would seem that you would go for men more often, since men typically have larger hands. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 23, 2006, 09:32:46 AM
Also, no one has sent me hot pictures of their hands yet, and I'm disappointed.

:D

In the "disturbingly funny because it's true" category, I've met kindergardeners with larger hands than mine. :-[
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 23, 2006, 09:37:51 AM
Also, no one has sent me hot pictures of their hands yet, and I'm disappointed.

:D

In the "disturbingly funny because it's true" category, I've met kindergardeners with larger hands than mine. :-[

I also have very small hands, Lily!  Tiny!  Maybe we have manus envy.

(<--- nerd)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 23, 2006, 09:40:49 AM
Also, no one has sent me hot pictures of their hands yet, and I'm disappointed.

i just can't get over this... so do tell us, what is it about hands that really gets you goin?  you said you like them big, but what else? there must be some other defining attributes to sexy hands or it would seem that you would go for men more often, since men typically have larger hands. 

No, it's not just about size (though big is HOT!).  There are several axes of hand judgment: bony/fleshy, wide/long, hairy/smooth, rough/smooth, long nails/short nails (short, duh), etc.

Anyway, this is Bonkers' thread!   If someone were to start a thread all about hot hands, I would be an active participant. :)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 23, 2006, 09:44:45 AM
Also, no one has sent me hot pictures of their hands yet, and I'm disappointed.

i just can't get over this... so do tell us, what is it about hands that really gets you goin?  you said you like them big, but what else? there must be some other defining attributes to sexy hands or it would seem that you would go for men more often, since men typically have larger hands. 

No, it's not just about size (though big is HOT!).  There are several axes of hand judgment: bony/fleshy, wide/long, hairy/smooth, rough/smooth, long nails/short nails (short, duh), etc.

Anyway, this is Bonkers' thread!   If someone were to start a thread all about hot hands, I would be an active participant. :)

fine... see the last 200 threads and find yours.   :)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Angelina1 on May 23, 2006, 10:38:31 AM
Also, no one has sent me hot pictures of their hands yet, and I'm disappointed.

i just can't get over this... so do tell us, what is it about hands that really gets you goin?  you said you like them big, but what else? there must be some other defining attributes to sexy hands or it would seem that you would go for men more often, since men typically have larger hands. 

No, it's not just about size (though big is HOT!).  There are several axes of hand judgment: bony/fleshy, wide/long, hairy/smooth, rough/smooth, long nails/short nails (short, duh), etc.

Anyway, this is Bonkers' thread!   If someone were to start a thread all about hot hands, I would be an active participant. :)

I LOVE hands. That's always one of the things I notice about a person early on. Women's hands, I have to say, I admire and envy when they are small, delicate, and well-groomed (since mine are rather stubby and in terrible condition most of the time); men's hands--they don't have to be that big, but I hate it when they are too small for their body. And I do find really large hands on a man totally HOT (like Liam Neeson).

I'll stop continuing the thread hijack...but would participate in a "hands" thread as well, Miss P.  :D

One more Edit, though: I don't think hand obsession (would that be manophilia?) is all that uncommon. Tons of people are into feet, which I happen to find gross, and that is not considered weird.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Angelina1 on May 23, 2006, 10:42:40 AM
Okay, I actually have a question for the Resident Homosexual Expert(s):

Why do so many gay men hate lesbians so much? (I know that not all of you do, and maybe it's more the gay men in the fashion industry, which is the single biggest category of gay male I've hung out with, but still, why do you think that is?)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 23, 2006, 10:43:01 AM
Angelina1, join us here (http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,63361.0.html)!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 23, 2006, 11:22:15 AM
Why do so many gay men hate lesbians so much?

I think it is probably your fashion industry pals. Lesbians are the cause of much eye-rolling among gay men, but I have not met too many who "hate" them. Sometimes we get annoyed or impatient with them, but I think the same goes for dykes toward gay men, and part of that is the result of two groups being bound together in a struggle who are basically total opposites.

Personally, I think gay men are more like str8 women, and lesbians are more like str8 men, than the two are like each other.

you know, i have a couple great lesbian friends, and i'm not a "fashion industry pal", but i do often look at lesbians and wonder what they are thinking when they get up in the morning and get dressed.  do they try to pick out the ugliest colors and styles?  granted, this isn't always the case.  i know some pretty "hot" lesbians, but it happens far too often...
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 23, 2006, 11:31:55 AM
My issue is more with their hair. It's like the worst of all possible worlds. Straight guys seemingly put more thought into their hair than lesbians -- a lot more.

this is often true as well... the short hack-job is a frequent sight.  i just don't get it.  i guess it's attractive to lesbians or do they just not care?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 23, 2006, 11:32:34 AM
Why do so many gay men hate lesbians so much?

I think it is probably your fashion industry pals. Lesbians are the cause of much eye-rolling among gay men, but I have not met too many who "hate" them. Sometimes we get annoyed or impatient with them, but I think the same goes for dykes toward gay men, and part of that is the result of two groups being bound together in a struggle who are basically total opposites.

Personally, I think gay men are more like str8 women, and lesbians are more like str8 men, than the two are like each other.

Cosigned.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: H4CS on May 23, 2006, 11:37:03 AM
Why do so many gay men hate lesbians so much?

Well, I think there's a certain percentage of gay men who just hate women period.  I don't think that misogyny is any more or less pronounced among gay men as it is among straight men, which is why we shouldn't be surprised to find gay men who hate women (especially lesbians). 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 23, 2006, 11:45:30 AM
Why do so many gay men hate lesbians so much?

Well, I think there's a certain percentage of gay men who just hate women period.  I don't think that misogyny is any more or less pronounced among gay men as it is among straight men, which is why we shouldn't be surprised to find gay men who hate women (especially lesbians). 

I've noticed a difference based on SES, but that could just be due to sample size. :-\
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 23, 2006, 11:49:56 AM
Why do so many gay men hate lesbians so much?

Well, I think there's a certain percentage of gay men who just hate women period.  I don't think that misogyny is any more or less pronounced among gay men as it is among straight men, which is why we shouldn't be surprised to find gay men who hate women (especially lesbians). 

i think the reasons are completely different though.  most gay men get along with straight women better than any other group. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 23, 2006, 11:50:27 AM
Why do so many gay men hate lesbians so much?

Well, I think there's a certain percentage of gay men who just hate women period.  I don't think that misogyny is any more or less pronounced among gay men as it is among straight men, which is why we shouldn't be surprised to find gay men who hate women (especially lesbians). 

Agreed!  But as one of those "hot lesbians" who gets by with gay men all right, I'll add that I think another reason that lesbians often get a bad rap in the fashion industry (in addition to some admittedly bad stylistic choices) is that lesbians are generally a lot poorer than gay men and their fashion and style reflect that.

Further, lesbians have a rap for being stern, asexual, and man-hating.  Without commenting on the fairness of these stereotypes, it makes sense to me that neither gay men nor straight men would find these qualities appealing.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 23, 2006, 12:03:38 PM
Further, lesbians have a rap for being stern, asexual, and man-hating.  Without commenting on the fairness of these stereotypes, it makes sense to me that neither gay men nor straight men would find these qualities appealing.

Yeah I don't want to go down this path too far since it's negative and pointless generalizing, but my own impression is that more lesbians hate men than gay men hate women.

That said, I think sometimes women interpret gay men as "hating" women because we are immune to female charms. A lot of women stake a lot of their identity on the power that they have over men based on their appearance. They find it annoying and threatening that this does not work on gay men.

Hmmm... I don't think so, exactly.  For one, empirically, don't you think that a lot of straight women (who are presumably more likely than lesbians to stake their identity on the power they have over men -- a formulation I question, but we can leave it) really do adore and fetishize the gay men in their life?  They find them safe, funny, non-competitive, etc.

And I think that the reason some lesbians resent gay men (and I know some who do) is that they tend to have a lot of advantages over us -- money, safety, confidence, etc. -- and little recognition of their privilege.

But there's no need to turn this into a hatefest.  I socialize primarily with gay men.  I like them.  We have a lot in common.  I bet we in this thread would enjoy each other's company if we knew each other in real life.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 23, 2006, 12:07:33 PM
one other thing i often wonder is, why do lesbians rarely go out?  they seem perfectly content to always stay at home and shun the public eye.  does this have something to do with confidence (as you mentioned miss p) or what?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 23, 2006, 12:11:43 PM
OK MissP I know this is not your thread but you've got me wondering too about the whole sex thing.
Like for me, I see a really attractive man and I get a gut level primal hunger/shock wave feeling.
It's an instantaneous thing -- no "thought" going on there.
And, while I have found some women attractive and can understand your "a hole is a hole" theory, I don't get that instantaneous "wow" feeling around females.

For a long time I just assumed that all people felt that gut-level reaction toward attractive (name your preference here). However, I have a female friend who doesn't feel that.  For a long time I wondered if she was a lesbian, because I just had trouble imagining a woman not having a gut reaction to handsome men. But my friend apparently prefers men.

Perhaps my "instinctive" reaction is not as common as I thought?


Maybe it has to do with 1) how "straight" someone is and 2) how strong their sex drive is. I think that women exclusively sexually attracted to men are more likely to experience that powerful, mindless ZING of passion. Women with stronger sex drives are also probably more likely to feel that ZING. It wasn't until my sex drive revved up when I was around 20 that I knew what it was to look at a hot guy and get incredibly hot in a purely physical, utterly mindless way (TMI? :D). 
That's funny. I think of it almost as a salivating when you see really good food kind of reaction.  :D
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 23, 2006, 12:11:45 PM
prob keeps guys from hitting on them....
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 23, 2006, 12:15:44 PM
one other thing i often wonder is, why do lesbians rarely go out?  they seem perfectly content to always stay at home and shun the public eye.  does this have something to do with confidence (as you mentioned miss p) or what?

This is pretty true, and I think it does contribute to the widespread sense that lesbians are joyless creatures.

I think these are the primary reasons, off the top of my head:

1. Money

2. No good dyke bars and clubs (I go to gay bars a lot if they're at all mixed, but there are probably like three good lesbian bars I know of in the whole country) -- and this has to do with #1

3. Not enjoying straight bars because we don't (all) like having men hit on us (Spaulding, you are exempt from this, clearly, if I can tempt you somehow into doing so.)

4. [Stereotype alert] Being in boring, fussy, monogamous LTRs strips one of the motivation[/stereotype alert]

5. More lesbians (than gay men or straight, single people) are parents or other caregivers and have responsibilities that keep them at home more often.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 23, 2006, 12:19:22 PM
Why do so many gay men hate lesbians so much?

I think it is probably your fashion industry pals. Lesbians are the cause of much eye-rolling among gay men, but I have not met too many who "hate" them. Sometimes we get annoyed or impatient with them, but I think the same goes for dykes toward gay men, and part of that is the result of two groups being bound together in a struggle who are basically total opposites.

Personally, I think gay men are more like str8 women, and lesbians are more like str8 men, than the two are like each other.
So, is this why it seems that gay men tend to dress better than lesbians?
Also, for anyone who cares to answer ... why is that some lesbians won't wear dresses or makeup?  I've met some really fashionable lesbians, but I assumed, until I found out differently, that they were straight. Am I just completely stereotyping here?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 23, 2006, 12:21:53 PM
I base this on numerous experiences with women who I can just tell are annoyed that they can't use their usual tricks on gays, they have to use their minds, which for some people is a lot tougher.

True dat.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Phatmal on May 23, 2006, 12:22:25 PM
one other thing i often wonder is, why do lesbians rarely go out?  they seem perfectly content to always stay at home and shun the public eye.  does this have something to do with confidence (as you mentioned miss p) or what?

You know, I wonder about this too.  I'm not sure if it's bacause we "pair up" so quickly or what.  My partner and I don't go out other than for after work cocktails (which will end once I start school  :( ).  I just figured it's cause we're boring married folks now but some of my married co-workers go out all the time.  If I could pinpoint the reason and find some sort of cure for our boringness...trust me, I would!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 23, 2006, 12:30:07 PM
Why do so many gay men hate lesbians so much?

I think it is probably your fashion industry pals. Lesbians are the cause of much eye-rolling among gay men, but I have not met too many who "hate" them. Sometimes we get annoyed or impatient with them, but I think the same goes for dykes toward gay men, and part of that is the result of two groups being bound together in a struggle who are basically total opposites.

Personally, I think gay men are more like str8 women, and lesbians are more like str8 men, than the two are like each other.
So, is this why it seems that gay men tend to dress better than lesbians?
Also, for anyone who cares to answer ... why is that some lesbians won't wear dresses or makeup?  I've met some really fashionable lesbians, but I assumed, until I found out differently, that they were straight. Am I just completely stereotyping here?

It's true that some lesbians don't wear makeup or skirts/dresses, in part because they want to be identifiable to others -- to avoid the misidentification you describe.  I also think it has to do with the history of lesbian communities in the States -- most went through early phases of being almost exclusively butch-femme (maybe in order for their members to pass in straight institutions, maybe for other reasons).  Finally, I think there are some lesbians who feel an instinctual or explicit connection to a brand of 70s white feminism that held that makeup and grooming and skirts and bras were the trappings of patriarchy.

But I think there are a lot more sort of normatively feminine dykes out there than you might guess -- and there are certainly a lot of femmes like me (not enough butches, I'd add, in NYC!).  I, for one, don't even wear pants except to the gym.  I wear lipstick every day, curl my lashes, do my hair, stumble around in heels, have a color (Got the Blues for Red) at the nail salon, etc.

EDITed for some weird grammar.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Angelina1 on May 23, 2006, 01:01:51 PM
My issue is more with their hair. It's like the worst of all possible worlds. Straight guys seemingly put more thought into their hair than lesbians -- a lot more.

this is often true as well... the short hack-job is a frequent sight.  i just don't get it.  i guess it's attractive to lesbians or do they just not care?

Could this be a rebellion against the traditional expectations/constraints of beauty burdening women? Just a thought.

Edit: Oops, sorry Miss P--responded to earlier post before reading yours.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Angelina1 on May 23, 2006, 01:04:49 PM
Why do so many gay men hate lesbians so much?

Well, I think there's a certain percentage of gay men who just hate women period.  I don't think that misogyny is any more or less pronounced among gay men as it is among straight men, which is why we shouldn't be surprised to find gay men who hate women (especially lesbians). 

Very, very good point--I probably know more straight men who seem to have major issues with women than gay men; but why do you think lesbians in particular? Do you think it's just that the queeny types really like glamour and many lesbians are anti-glamour? Maybe it's only butch lesbians and queens who don't get along? And, yes, I would say that for some gay men it seems to be open hostility and not just eye-rolling...
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 23, 2006, 01:06:55 PM
Why do so many gay men hate lesbians so much?

I think it is probably your fashion industry pals. Lesbians are the cause of much eye-rolling among gay men, but I have not met too many who "hate" them. Sometimes we get annoyed or impatient with them, but I think the same goes for dykes toward gay men, and part of that is the result of two groups being bound together in a struggle who are basically total opposites.

Personally, I think gay men are more like str8 women, and lesbians are more like str8 men, than the two are like each other.
So, is this why it seems that gay men tend to dress better than lesbians?
Also, for anyone who cares to answer ... why is that some lesbians won't wear dresses or makeup?  I've met some really fashionable lesbians, but I assumed, until I found out differently, that they were straight. Am I just completely stereotyping here?

It's true that some lesbians don't wear makeup or skirts/dresses, in part because they want to be identifiable to others -- to avoid the misidentification you describe.  I also think it has to do with the history of lesbian communities in the States -- most went through early phases of being almost exclusively butch-femme (maybe in order for their members to pass in straight institutions, maybe for other reasons).  Finally, I think there are some lesbians who feel an instinctual or explicit connection to a brand of 70s white feminism that held that makeup and grooming and skirts and bras were the trappings of patriarchy.

But I think there are a lot more sort of normatively feminine dykes out there than you might guess -- and there are certainly a lot of femmes like me (not enough butches, I'd add, in NYC!).  I, for one, don't even wear pants except to the gym.  I wear lipstick every day, curl my lashes, do my hair, stumble around in heels, have a color (Got the Blues for Red) at the nail salon, etc.

EDITed for some weird grammar.
Hmmm. So you like the butch look? If I were a lesbian, I'd wear makeup and skirts. And I'd want my girlfriend to be girly.  I wouldn't want to date a woman who looked like a man.  Do lipstick lesbians usually get together with each other, or do they tend to hook up with butch women?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 23, 2006, 01:10:56 PM
Hmmm. So you like the butch look? If I were a lesbian, I'd wear makeup and skirts. And I'd want my girlfriend to be girly.  I wouldn't want to date a woman who looked like a man.  Do lipstick lesbians usually get together with each other, or do they tend to hook up with butch women?

i have a good friend that's a lipstick lesbian but has a butch girlfriend.  her girlfriend is awesome, but i'm perplexed by that attraction as well. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Phatmal on May 23, 2006, 01:23:09 PM

So, is this why it seems that gay men tend to dress better than lesbians?
Also, for anyone who cares to answer ... why is that some lesbians won't wear dresses or makeup?  I've met some really fashionable lesbians, but I assumed, until I found out differently, that they were straight. Am I just completely stereotyping here?

It's true that some lesbians don't wear makeup or skirts/dresses, in part because they want to be identifiable to others -- to avoid the misidentification you describe.  I also think it has to do with the history of lesbian communities in the States -- most went through early phases of being almost exclusively butch-femme (maybe in order for their members to pass in straight institutions, maybe for other reasons).  Finally, I think there are some lesbians who feel an instinctual or explicit connection to a brand of 70s white feminism that held that makeup and grooming and skirts and bras were the trappings of patriarchy.

But I think there are a lot more sort of normatively feminine dykes out there than you might guess -- and there are certainly a lot of femmes like me (not enough butches, I'd add, in NYC!).  I, for one, don't even wear pants except to the gym.  I wear lipstick every day, curl my lashes, do my hair, stumble around in heels, have a color (Got the Blues for Red) at the nail salon, etc.

EDITed for some weird grammar.

I think to an extent that you are over analyzing this.  I wear make-up, but I don't wear dresses/heels.  I think for the majority it's a comfort level...My partner wears skirts and heels, but not make-up.  BUT, we both love the spa, mani/pedicures, hair salons and the like.  We often get the "who's the man" question and many have told me in the past that they couldn't tell I was gay (which always suprised me 'cause I thought I screamed it).  Most people assume my partner is straight too.  Anyway, I would definately say that we, and the majority of lesbians we know, dress however they please because they like the feel of it...not because they are feminists (I would actually say that I am pretty far from being a feminist).

Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 23, 2006, 01:27:20 PM
I read once that gay men, and of course straight women, are obsessed with being thin. The theory is that sleeping with men is what makes people weight-obsessed. Does anyone think there is anything to this?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 23, 2006, 01:31:19 PM
So, is this why it seems that gay men tend to dress better than lesbians?
Also, for anyone who cares to answer ... why is that some lesbians won't wear dresses or makeup?  I've met some really fashionable lesbians, but I assumed, until I found out differently, that they were straight. Am I just completely stereotyping here?

It's true that some lesbians don't wear makeup or skirts/dresses, in part because they want to be identifiable to others -- to avoid the misidentification you describe.  I also think it has to do with the history of lesbian communities in the States -- most went through early phases of being almost exclusively butch-femme (maybe in order for their members to pass in straight institutions, maybe for other reasons).  Finally, I think there are some lesbians who feel an instinctual or explicit connection to a brand of 70s white feminism that held that makeup and grooming and skirts and bras were the trappings of patriarchy.

But I think there are a lot more sort of normatively feminine dykes out there than you might guess -- and there are certainly a lot of femmes like me (not enough butches, I'd add, in NYC!).  I, for one, don't even wear pants except to the gym.  I wear lipstick every day, curl my lashes, do my hair, stumble around in heels, have a color (Got the Blues for Red) at the nail salon, etc.

EDITed for some weird grammar.

I think to an extent that you are over analyzing this.  I wear make-up, but I don't wear dresses/heels.  I think for the majority it's a comfort level...My partner wears skirts and heels, but not make-up.  BUT, we both love the spa, mani/pedicures, hair salons and the like.  We often get the "who's the man" question and many have told me in the past that they couldn't tell I was gay (which always suprised me 'cause I thought I screamed it).  Most people assume my partner is straight too.  Anyway, I would definately say that we, and the majority of lesbians we know, dress however they please because they like the feel of it...not because they are feminists (I would actually say that I am pretty far from being a feminist).

Well other than the fact that I am a feminist, I agree with everything you said, and I don't think that it's very different from what I said, so I'm confused.  I offered a few reasons why lesbians who are butch or who don't wear makeup and skirts might not, while you focused on the larger issue of gender diversity within lesbian communities, right?

EDITed to fix quoting
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 23, 2006, 01:31:48 PM
I read once that gay men, and of course straight women, are obsessed with being thin. The theory is that sleeping with men is what makes people weight-obsessed. Does anyone think there is anything to this?


i don't really understand what the theory is there... just that sleeping with men makes one weight-obsessed?  although, i think it's true that gay men are also generally obsessed with being thin and/or in shape.  i think it just has to do with men generally being more superficial than women, straight and gay alike so their target audience attempts to conform to what is generally preferable. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Angelina1 on May 23, 2006, 01:38:12 PM
I read once that gay men, and of course straight women, are obsessed with being thin. The theory is that sleeping with men is what makes people weight-obsessed. Does anyone think there is anything to this?


Yes.

To be more specific: I don't think it's the actual sex acts involved with sleeping with men that flips some weight-conscious switch; I just think that it is more common among females of all sexual orientations--whether inborn or (more likely) culturally conditioned--to find a constellation of qualities rather than simply physical attributes attractive and to be more accepting of traits that deviate from the ideal, whereas men of all sexual orientations are more likely to be attracted based on looks and to put more emphasis on the physical aspects of the relationship. I think that, regardless of sexual orientation, we are all subject to some norms from the majority culture, and these generalizations are definitely just that, generalizations, but are undeniably built into our cultural assumptions about males and females in relationships. I also think that there are additional norms that develop in minority sub-cultures, and looks and physical fitness seem to receive far greater emphasis among gay male subculture than among lesbians.

Am I wrong, dude?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 23, 2006, 01:39:47 PM
I read once that gay men, and of course straight women, are obsessed with being thin. The theory is that sleeping with men is what makes people weight-obsessed. Does anyone think there is anything to this?


Yes.

To be more specific: I don't think it's the actual sex acts involved with sleeping with men that flips some weight-conscious switch; I just think that it is more common among females of all sexual orientations--whether inborn or (more likely) culturally conditioned--to find a constellation of qualities rather than simply physical attributes attractive and to be more accepting of traits that deviate from the ideal, whereas men of all sexual orientations are more likely to be attracted based on looks and to put more emphasis on the physical aspects of the relationship. I think that, regardless of sexual orientation, we are all subject to some norms from the majority culture, and these generalizations are definitely just that, generalizations, but are undeniably built into our cultural assumptions about males and females in relationships. I also think that there are additional norms that develop in minority sub-cultures, and looks and physical fitness seem to receive far greater emphasis among gay male subculture than among lesbians.

Am I wrong, dude?

I generally agree with this -- but there are also a lot of lesbian jocks out there!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 23, 2006, 01:42:32 PM
Yes.

To be more specific: I don't think it's the actual sex acts involved with sleeping with men that flips some weight-conscious switch; I just think that it is more common among females of all sexual orientations--whether inborn or (more likely) culturally conditioned--to find a constellation of qualities rather than simply physical attributes attractive and to be more accepting of traits that deviate from the ideal, whereas men of all sexual orientations are more likely to be attracted based on looks and to put more emphasis on the physical aspects of the relationship. I think that, regardless of sexual orientation, we are all subject to some norms from the majority culture, and these generalizations are definitely just that, generalizations, but are undeniably built into our cultural assumptions about males and females in relationships. I also think that there are additional norms that develop in minority sub-cultures, and looks and physical fitness seem to receive far greater emphasis among gay male subculture than among lesbians.

Am I wrong, dude?

agreed
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Phatmal on May 23, 2006, 01:43:22 PM
So, is this why it seems that gay men tend to dress better than lesbians?
Also, for anyone who cares to answer ... why is that some lesbians won't wear dresses or makeup?  I've met some really fashionable lesbians, but I assumed, until I found out differently, that they were straight. Am I just completely stereotyping here?

It's true that some lesbians don't wear makeup or skirts/dresses, in part because they want to be identifiable to others -- to avoid the misidentification you describe.  I also think it has to do with the history of lesbian communities in the States -- most went through early phases of being almost exclusively butch-femme (maybe in order for their members to pass in straight institutions, maybe for other reasons).  Finally, I think there are some lesbians who feel an instinctual or explicit connection to a brand of 70s white feminism that held that makeup and grooming and skirts and bras were the trappings of patriarchy.

But I think there are a lot more sort of normatively feminine dykes out there than you might guess -- and there are certainly a lot of femmes like me (not enough butches, I'd add, in NYC!).  I, for one, don't even wear pants except to the gym.  I wear lipstick every day, curl my lashes, do my hair, stumble around in heels, have a color (Got the Blues for Red) at the nail salon, etc.

EDITed for some weird grammar.

I think to an extent that you are over analyzing this.  I wear make-up, but I don't wear dresses/heels.  I think for the majority it's a comfort level...My partner wears skirts and heels, but not make-up.  BUT, we both love the spa, mani/pedicures, hair salons and the like.  We often get the "who's the man" question and many have told me in the past that they couldn't tell I was gay (which always suprised me 'cause I thought I screamed it).  Most people assume my partner is straight too.  Anyway, I would definately say that we, and the majority of lesbians we know, dress however they please because they like the feel of it...not because they are feminists (I would actually say that I am pretty far from being a feminist).

Well other than the fact that I am a feminist, I agree with everything you said, and I don't think that it's very different from what I said, so I'm confused.  I offered a few reasons why lesbians who are butch or who don't wear makeup and skirts might not, while you focused on the larger issue of gender diversity within lesbian communities, right?

EDITed to fix quoting

The bolded paragraph is what I was responding to.  
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 23, 2006, 01:44:43 PM
I read once that gay men, and of course straight women, are obsessed with being thin. The theory is that sleeping with men is what makes people weight-obsessed. Does anyone think there is anything to this?


i don't really understand what the theory is there... just that sleeping with men makes one weight-obsessed?  although, i think it's true that gay men are also generally obsessed with being thin and/or in shape.  i think it just has to do with men generally being more superficial than women, straight and gay alike so their target audience attempts to conform to what is generally preferable. 
Perhaps I should have said that there was a correlation between dating men and being weight-obsessed -- I think the idea behind that theory is what you've said.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 23, 2006, 01:45:05 PM
do lezb0s appreciate the crazy lines we have to trhow at them just to get their attention and a msmile?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 23, 2006, 01:46:44 PM
2. No good dyke bars and clubs (I go to gay bars a lot if they're at all mixed, but there are probably like three good lesbian bars I know of in the whole country) -- and this has to do with #1

What're the best (tolerant, high per-capita population of LGBT, cool, etc.) places to live for gay women?  Gay men?  I have a stereotype of lesbians liking smaller towns and gay men preferring urban areas, which I guess is part of other stereotypes under discussion earlier.  (This, in spite of the fact that I have acquaintances of both sorts who don't fit into that stereotype.)  Olympia, WA seemed to be a big favorite of the dykes I knew in undergrad, years ago.  And when I was in grad school, my glamorous*, butch housemate seemed to love just living in a small midwest college town (lots of young pretty athletes coming through on a regular basis.)

*She's foreign.  Her accent and attitude seemed to get a lot of attention.

This is interesting, the small-town/big-city divide.  I would guess that these types of things have a lot more to do with race and class than with sexuality, but I could be wrong.  And maybe  other preferences (like liking to go out dancing, liking to have vegetarian food accessible, whatnot) are the root determinations, not sexuality per se.  

I would say for some lesbians (and this has a lot to do with my race and class, for sure), NYC and Seattle in the 70s and 80s, San Francisco and Olympia in the 90s, Oakland and Portland in the 00s were/are pretty cool dyke towns.  My ex was in Austin for a couple of years and she loved it.  Oh, but she was also dating an annoyingly perfect, snaggy straight guy while she was there... Hmmm...
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 23, 2006, 01:47:52 PM
do lezb0s appreciate the crazy lines we have to trhow at them just to get their attention and a msmile?
Stuff like "Lesbian? That's great! Maybe you and your girlfriend can come over sometime!" I somehow picture men saying this stuff to lesbians.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 23, 2006, 01:49:36 PM
do lezb0s appreciate the crazy lines we have to trhow at them just to get their attention and a msmile?
Stuff like "Lesbian? That's great! Maybe you and your girlfriend can come over sometime!" I somehow picture men saying this stuff to lesbians.

OMG!!!  thats my line!!!!  ;D
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 23, 2006, 01:49:52 PM
do lezb0s appreciate the crazy lines we have to trhow at them just to get their attention and a msmile?
Stuff like "Lesbian? That's great! Maybe you and your girlfriend can come over sometime!" I somehow picture men saying this stuff to lesbians.

LOL.  That's exactly right.  Occasionally you get the really clever ones, though (can't think of one right now), and that usually charms me a bit.  Of course, I'm highly tolerant.  Or distracted by his hands. Or something. :)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: incognito on May 23, 2006, 02:08:23 PM
Asheville NC may be the lesbian capital of the world. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 23, 2006, 02:10:29 PM
It's true that some lesbians don't wear makeup or skirts/dresses, in part because they want to be identifiable to others -- to avoid the misidentification you describe.  I also think it has to do with the history of lesbian communities in the States -- most went through early phases of being almost exclusively butch-femme (maybe in order for their members to pass in straight institutions, maybe for other reasons).  Finally, I think there are some lesbians who feel an instinctual or explicit connection to a brand of 70s white feminism that held that makeup and grooming and skirts and bras were the trappings of patriarchy.

The bolded paragraph is what I was responding to.  

Oh, sorry for missing this before.  Yes, I was overanalyzing, but only because I thought dbgirl's question merited a more serious response than the "Hey, lotsa lesbians wear skirts" thing.  It's not like I go around trying to draw genealogies of my dyke friends' fashion, style, and gender expression all the time!  And I was only talking about possible reasons that those lesbians who do shun feminine dress and style might do so, not giving an account of all lesbians' choices.   :)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 23, 2006, 02:10:44 PM
do lezb0s appreciate the crazy lines we have to trhow at them just to get their attention and a msmile?
Stuff like "Lesbian? That's great! Maybe you and your girlfriend can come over sometime!" I somehow picture men saying this stuff to lesbians.

LOL.  That's exactly right.  Occasionally you get the really clever ones, though (can't think of one right now), and that usually charms me a bit.  Of course, I'm highly tolerant.  Or distracted by his hands. Or something. :)

i saw a comic once, and it showed the way to pick up the lezbos, a guy walked in, started talking to hem.  they wwerent that interested.  hten he mentioned, 'oh, btw, im a billionaire' and he was walking out with one on each arm...

;D
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 23, 2006, 02:11:38 PM
i saw a comic once, and it showed the way to pick up the lezbos, a guy walked in, started talking to hem.  they wwerent that interested.  hten he mentioned, 'oh, btw, im a billionaire' and he was walking out with one on each arm...

;D

 :D :D :D
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Phatmal on May 23, 2006, 02:45:43 PM
It's true that some lesbians don't wear makeup or skirts/dresses, in part because they want to be identifiable to others -- to avoid the misidentification you describe.  I also think it has to do with the history of lesbian communities in the States -- most went through early phases of being almost exclusively butch-femme (maybe in order for their members to pass in straight institutions, maybe for other reasons).  Finally, I think there are some lesbians who feel an instinctual or explicit connection to a brand of 70s white feminism that held that makeup and grooming and skirts and bras were the trappings of patriarchy.

The bolded paragraph is what I was responding to.  

Oh, sorry for missing this before.  Yes, I was overanalyzing, but only because I thought dbgirl's question merited a more serious response than the "Hey, lotsa lesbians wear skirts" thing.  It's not like I go around trying to draw genealogies of my dyke friends' fashion, style, and gender expression all the time!  And I was only talking about possible reasons that those lesbians who do shun feminine dress and style might do so, not giving an account of all lesbians' choices.   :)

You should move to Portland...we could use some more big hand lovin' snappy dressers here   :D
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 23, 2006, 02:47:32 PM
You should move to Portland...we could use some more big hand lovin' snappy dressers here   :D

Possible TMI alert: I do always get laid when I go to Portland, it's true!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 23, 2006, 02:51:18 PM
It's true that some lesbians don't wear makeup or skirts/dresses, in part because they want to be identifiable to others -- to avoid the misidentification you describe.  I also think it has to do with the history of lesbian communities in the States -- most went through early phases of being almost exclusively butch-femme (maybe in order for their members to pass in straight institutions, maybe for other reasons).  Finally, I think there are some lesbians who feel an instinctual or explicit connection to a brand of 70s white feminism that held that makeup and grooming and skirts and bras were the trappings of patriarchy.

The bolded paragraph is what I was responding to.  

Oh, sorry for missing this before.  Yes, I was overanalyzing, but only because I thought dbgirl's question merited a more serious response than the "Hey, lotsa lesbians wear skirts" thing.  It's not like I go around trying to draw genealogies of my dyke friends' fashion, style, and gender expression all the time!  And I was only talking about possible reasons that those lesbians who do shun feminine dress and style might do so, not giving an account of all lesbians' choices.   :)

You should move to Portland...we could use some more big hand lovin' snappy dressers here   :D

Possible TMI alert: I do always get laid when I go to Portland, it's true!

TMI doesnt exist for girls...
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 23, 2006, 02:55:54 PM
Okay, I am sorry but this thread CANNOT become all about guys flirting with girls. That is what the rest of LSD is for. Gays need a thread to call our own where our lesbian sisters are more than just fantasy material for horny str8 men.

I'm with you Bonkers, as long as I can keep flirting with Captain Spaulding.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 23, 2006, 02:57:46 PM
Why is it that straight men often fantasize about lesbians but straight women don't often fantasize about gay men?
I've never thought it would be fun to watch gay men doing it. It would sort of hurt my feelings in a sense.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 23, 2006, 02:59:05 PM
Why is it that straight men often fantasize about lesbians but straight women don't often fantasize about gay men?
I've never thought it would be fun to watch gay men doing it. It would sort of hurt my feelings in a sense.

ive known a few that do.

better not flirt with them though....
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 23, 2006, 03:00:36 PM
Why is it that straight men often fantasize about lesbians but straight women don't often fantasize about gay men?
I've never thought it would be fun to watch gay men doing it. It would sort of hurt my feelings in a sense.

Strangely enough, I know lots of lesbians who like watching gay porn.  I wonder what that's about.  
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 23, 2006, 03:02:01 PM
Why is it that straight men often fantasize about lesbians but straight women don't often fantasize about gay men?
I've never thought it would be fun to watch gay men doing it. It would sort of hurt my feelings in a sense.

umm... i actually have been propositioned by a girl who wanted to watch, and it was kind of disturbing, but i think this probably goes back to TMI (not that it happened).
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ScoopNY on May 23, 2006, 03:02:57 PM
I know plenty of straight women who like gay porn, but few who actually want to have sex with two gay men.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 23, 2006, 03:06:12 PM
I'm sure that there are a handful of women who want to see gay men doing it, but I don't think it's a really common fantasy.

As far as TMI goes, I happened upon a very graphic website recently where the participants were not terribly attractive. The bottom guy had the hairiest ass I've ever seen! Not pretty!
Maybe if he waxed it or something ...
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ScoopNY on May 23, 2006, 03:13:46 PM
You must have stumbled upon a bear website. The bears like them very hairy.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 23, 2006, 03:14:47 PM
I'm sure that there are a handful of women who want to see gay men doing it, but I don't think it's a really common fantasy.

As far as TMI goes, I happened upon a very graphic website recently where the participants were not terribly attractive. The bottom guy had the hairiest ass I've ever seen! Not pretty!
Maybe if he waxed it or something ...

once upon a time, i "happened" upon such sites too.    ;)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 23, 2006, 03:22:20 PM
I'm sure that there are a handful of women who want to see gay men doing it, but I don't think it's a really common fantasy.

As far as TMI goes, I happened upon a very graphic website recently where the participants were not terribly attractive. The bottom guy had the hairiest ass I've ever seen! Not pretty!
Maybe if he waxed it or something ...

once upon a time, i "happened" upon such sites too.    ;)

I read ads for the etcetera jobs on craiglist. The job was seeking models for the site. So, I clicked upon the site out of curiousity. I'm sure there is way way better gay porn out there than that.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: H4CS on May 23, 2006, 03:24:58 PM
Okay, I am sorry but this thread CANNOT become all about guys flirting with girls. That is what the rest of LSD is for. Gays need a thread to call our own where our lesbian sisters are more than just fantasy material for horny str8 men.

Agreed.

I'm with you Bonkers, as long as I can keep flirting with Captain Spaulding.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: H4CS on May 23, 2006, 03:27:15 PM
Why do so many gay men hate lesbians so much?

Well, I think there's a certain percentage of gay men who just hate women period.  I don't think that misogyny is any more or less pronounced among gay men as it is among straight men, which is why we shouldn't be surprised to find gay men who hate women (especially lesbians). 

Very, very good point--I probably know more straight men who seem to have major issues with women than gay men; but why do you think lesbians in particular? Do you think it's just that the queeny types really like glamour and many lesbians are anti-glamour? Maybe it's only butch lesbians and queens who don't get along? And, yes, I would say that for some gay men it seems to be open hostility and not just eye-rolling...

I don't think it's lesbians in particular.  I think a lot of people have this weird stereotype that all gay men must be tolerant, open-minded, and supportive of other marginalized groups, especially lesbians. It turns out that misogyny crosses both sexuality, race, and class boundaries.  People are just surprised that gay men might hate lesbians because they assume a solidarity that doesn't actually exist (there's a parallel to the Beckerian model of the household here, but I'm too drunk lazy to spell it out).

I think in this instance, the simplest answer is correct one.  Gay men are no more or less likely than their straight counterparts to be bigoted.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 23, 2006, 03:49:54 PM
People are just surprised that gay men might hate lesbians because they assume a solidarity that doesn't actually exist (there's a parallel to the Beckerian model of the household here, but I'm too drunk lazy to spell it out).

It really is a pity that you get lazy when you're drunk.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: H4CS on May 23, 2006, 03:51:30 PM
People are just surprised that gay men might hate lesbians because they assume a solidarity that doesn't actually exist (there's a parallel to the Beckerian model of the household here, but I'm too drunk lazy to spell it out).

It really is a pity that you get lazy when you're drunk.

Backwards.  I get drunk when I'm lazy.  Wait, no.  I just get drunk.  Stop confusing me.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 23, 2006, 03:53:19 PM
People are just surprised that gay men might hate lesbians because they assume a solidarity that doesn't actually exist (there's a parallel to the Beckerian model of the household here, but I'm too drunk lazy to spell it out).

It really is a pity that you get lazy when you're drunk.

Backwards.  I get drunk when I'm lazy.  Wait, no.  I just get drunk.  Stop confusing me.

Oh, well, then good.  Let me buy you another, dear.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Angelina1 on May 23, 2006, 03:55:48 PM
Why do so many gay men hate lesbians so much?

Well, I think there's a certain percentage of gay men who just hate women period.  I don't think that misogyny is any more or less pronounced among gay men as it is among straight men, which is why we shouldn't be surprised to find gay men who hate women (especially lesbians). 

Very, very good point--I probably know more straight men who seem to have major issues with women than gay men; but why do you think lesbians in particular? Do you think it's just that the queeny types really like glamour and many lesbians are anti-glamour? Maybe it's only butch lesbians and queens who don't get along? And, yes, I would say that for some gay men it seems to be open hostility and not just eye-rolling...

I don't think it's lesbians in particular.  I think a lot of people have this weird stereotype that all gay men must be tolerant, open-minded, and supportive of other marginalized groups, especially lesbians. It turns out that misogyny crosses both sexuality, race, and class boundaries.  People are just surprised that gay men might hate lesbians because they assume a solidarity that doesn't actually exist (there's a parallel to the Beckerian model of the household here, but I'm too drunk lazy to spell it out).

I think in this instance, the simplest answer is correct one.  Gay men are no more or less likely than their straight counterparts to be bigoted.

I certainly never have thought what is bolded here--there's no more reason to think that than there is to think that any other minority group would have no prejudices. I think that many people think that those who have suffered prejudice are more likely to think twice before indulging in prejudice themselves--and, to a certain extent, that is true, don't you think? I mean, the statistics on minority groups seem to indicate that a greater percentage is liberal than in the rest of the population--but that was not really what I was saying in the first place. I think that perhaps the answer to my question is that gay men do not dislike lesbians in any greater amounts than do straight men, but feel more free to express their feelings openly because of the "authority" granted by the widely-assumed solidarity you mentioned. Could that be it? I've just never heard straight men ripping on lesbians as a group the way I've heard gay men--and i admit to having a non-scientific sample, here, but I don't think it can simply be explained as "everybody has some prejudice." There are definitely certain prejudices that are more prevalent among some sub-cultures than others (e.g., there has traditionally been more prejudice against black people in white southern baptists than in, say, the Jewish community in NYC).

Anyway, I think the horse is dead and this point, so no need to beat it anymore--it's not a question that keeps me awake at night!  ;)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 23, 2006, 04:04:36 PM
I think that perhaps the answer to my question is that gay men do not dislike lesbians in any greater amounts than do straight men, but feel more free to express their feelings openly because of the "authority" granted by the widely-assumed solidarity you mentioned.

I think this is likely. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: H4CS on May 23, 2006, 04:08:40 PM
It really is a pity that you get lazy when you're drunk.

Backwards.  I get drunk when I'm lazy.  Wait, no.  I just get drunk.  Stop confusing me.

Oh, well, then good.  Let me buy you another, dear.

No matter how bigoted one side or another may be, one common thread will always unite the lesbians and the gays: the love of drink.

TICR<.  Oh man.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ScoopNY on May 23, 2006, 04:12:29 PM
Quote
I'm sure there is way way better gay porn out there than that.

I'm absolutely certain of this!  ;D
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: finally on May 23, 2006, 07:09:47 PM
Quote
I'm sure there is way way better gay porn out there than that.

I'm absolutely certain of this!  ;D

LOL, well this thread has certainly degenerated since I was last here!   :D
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 23, 2006, 08:23:20 PM
I'm not attracted to gay men -- that's not why seeing men do it might hurt my feelings  It's more like what Bonkers said about gay men being immune to the charms of women -- I'm not really excited about the idea of being in a room with two men and having them be more into each other than into me.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Angelina1 on May 24, 2006, 09:39:09 AM
Has this board gotten boring or what? Seems like nobody is posting anymore. Does anyone have any more questions for gays or lesbians?

Okay: Why Judy Garland/Wizard of Oz? (btw, I've asked gay friends this, and they said "no idea, I don't get it, either")
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Angelina1 on May 24, 2006, 11:13:13 AM
Okay: Why Judy Garland/Wizard of Oz? (btw, I've asked gay friends this, and they said "no idea, I don't get it, either")

I have a soft spot for lots of the gay icons (Judy, Barbra, Joan Crawford, Bette Davis, etc.) but I'm not rabid about it. I'm afraid I have never heard any analysis that I have 100% bought, nor do I have one of my own. It's some kind of gut-level thing. I know that at 4 or 5 years old my mother had a Liza Minelli album and I *LOVED* it. And I hung out with girls all the time.

So I don't know, some of these things are just instinctual.

 :D That is certainly a very honest answer
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 24, 2006, 11:19:01 AM
Okay: Why Judy Garland/Wizard of Oz? (btw, I've asked gay friends this, and they said "no idea, I don't get it, either")

I have a soft spot for lots of the gay icons (Judy, Barbra, Joan Crawford, Bette Davis, etc.) but I'm not rabid about it. I'm afraid I have never heard any analysis that I have 100% bought, nor do I have one of my own. It's some kind of gut-level thing. I know that at 4 or 5 years old my mother had a Liza Minelli album and I *LOVED* it. And I hung out with girls all the time.

So I don't know, some of these things are just instinctual.

all of this is lost on me.  i think my one soft spot for gay icons is cher. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ScoopNY on May 24, 2006, 11:48:36 AM
Quote
Okay: Why Judy Garland/Wizard of Oz? (btw, I've asked gay friends this, and they said "no idea, I don't get it, either")

The entire movie is seen as a metaphor for gay men who leave their hometowns to find happiness at the end of the Yellow Brick Road. "Somewhere Over the rainbow" was adopted by many gay man as an anthem and Judy embraced this. It didn't happen in a vaccum, Judy loved gay men and they loved her back.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Angelina1 on May 24, 2006, 11:57:09 AM
Quote
Okay: Why Judy Garland/Wizard of Oz? (btw, I've asked gay friends this, and they said "no idea, I don't get it, either")

The entire movie is seen as a metaphor for gay men who leave their hometowns to find happiness at the end of the Yellow Brick Road. "Somewhere Over the rainbow" was adopted by many gay man as an anthem and Judy embraced this. It didn't happen in a vaccum, Judy loved gay men and they loved her back.

Oooohhhh. Now that makes sense, thanks, Homosexual Expert-guy!  ;)

Oh, here's another one: was Mr. Rogers gay? I realize that his deplorable fashion sense is an argument against, but he is kind of commonly held to be, I think.

Also, what does the gay community (or various groups within it) think of Queer Eye? Love? Hate? Indifferent? Do you think perpetuating positive stereotypes is a step forward in pursuing widespread civil rights, or just perpetuating another form of prejudice?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 24, 2006, 12:04:17 PM
Well I'm not a homosexual, so I might be wrong, but I seriously doubt Mr. Rogers was gay. For some reason when I man is gentle and sweet like Mr. Rogers people think he's gay -- I don't really get that. Also, what's with the Ernie and Bert are  gay theory  ??? I think people use the term "gay" to describe anything they don't like or understand.
I used to refer to any guy who broke up with me as gay, for example (to be fair, I think some of them were actually gay).
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 24, 2006, 12:11:10 PM
Oh, here's another one: was Mr. Rogers gay?

No, Mr. Rogers was a pedophile. BONKERS! HOW DARE YOU!

Also, what does the gay community (or various groups within it) think of Queer Eye? Love? Hate? Indifferent? Do you think perpetuating positive stereotypes is a step forward in pursuing widespread civil rights, or just perpetuating another form of prejudice?

Personally, for me it is a mixture of enjoying the show just like everyone else does (at least, before the concept got incredibly tired and old), and feeling a little uncomfortable that the role of gay people was to come in and fix straight peoples' lives in some way.

It's hard to explain, but it's kind of like if there were a show called, "I GOT RHYTHM!" where a group of black people would descend on a white person and teach him how to dance, how to dress, how to drink forties, etc...

THAT would be really funny! But it would have to include teaching the white guy how to play basketball.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 24, 2006, 12:19:21 PM
Also, what does the gay community (or various groups within it) think of Queer Eye? Love? Hate? Indifferent? Do you think perpetuating positive stereotypes is a step forward in pursuing widespread civil rights, or just perpetuating another form of prejudice?

i can't really speak for others since i haven't really sought opinions, but i've seen queer eye a few times, and i'm mostly indifferent. 

as for using positive stereotypes for advancement of civil rights, it's somewhat tempting for pragmatic gains, but i think overall, it can be very detrimental.  despite the fact that they often have some basis in truth, i think they create the perception of monolithic identity and establish false demarcations of inclusion and exclusion, marginalizing subgroups and holding individuals to a rigidified concept of identity that is antithetical to the general idea of "embracing diversity". 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 24, 2006, 12:31:06 PM
as for using positive stereotypes for advancement of civil rights, it's somewhat tempting for pragmatic gains, but i think overall, it can be very detrimental.  despite the fact that they often have some basis in truth, i think they create the perception of monolithic identity and establish false demarcations of inclusion and exclusion, marginalizing subgroups and holding individuals to a rigidified concept of identity that is antithetical to the general idea of "embracing diversity". 

Agreed.  Though I don't think that means we should tolerate the most obvious negative stereotyping, either. 

I should add that I'm pretty indifferent to Queer Eye as well.  It seemed really ingenious and funny the first few episodes (remember that cute guy, John B., in Jersey City with the obnoxious Armenian girlfriend?) and then it got very boring fast, especially once they turned to weddings.  I liked it more when it seemed to be making fun of the straight people's lack of awareness that anyone might find their lifestyles, well, unstylish, or strange; I liked it less as it seemed to turn into a sincere effort to promote functional straight relationships.  I realize this probably sounds a bit militant or something.  (If more of you had sent me those hand pics, I might be less grouchy.)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 24, 2006, 12:36:03 PM
Though I don't think that means we should tolerate the most obvious negative stereotyping, either. 

oh yeah, it cuts both ways (negative and positive).  although, if it's in jest, i love a good stereotype.   :)  can't always take yourself so seriously...
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 24, 2006, 12:41:51 PM
Though I don't think that means we should tolerate the most obvious negative stereotyping, either. 

oh yeah, it cuts both ways (negative and positive).  although, if it's in jest, i love a good stereotype.   :)  can't always take yourself so seriously...

Absolutely.  I love gay jokes, especially.  Just in the right context.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 24, 2006, 12:48:44 PM
How do you feel about gay men who claim to be "cured"?

 :D :D :D

Quote
Do you think it is possible to be "cured" of homosexuality?

no.  the better question is, can we cure heterosexuals? 

i actually saw a hilarious mock of one of the Exodus ads recently.  the original apparently said "Gay?  Unhappy?  www.exodus.com"  (something like that).  the counter was "Straight?  Unhappy?  www.gay.com". 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 24, 2006, 12:51:25 PM
Why has it become trendy for teenage girls to be bisexual?
I actually read this, and I have observed it as well.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 24, 2006, 12:56:35 PM
How do you feel about gay men who claim to be "cured"? Do you think it is possible to be "cured" of homosexuality? (I know a related question has been asked in this thread but it's not quite the same).

Because I believe both that sexuality is at base determined by environment and situation and that we are mostly one way or the other because we understand the world to be organized this way, I see a small chance that some people genuinely experience radical shifts in their sexual orientations during their adult lives.  I do not think that this is common at all, and I imagine it is even less common among people whose homosexual feelings are so pronounced that they are willing and able to admit them despite devotion to religions that proscribe it.  I can imagine a guy who has been straight all his life engaging in homosexual activity in prison and growing to enjoy it much more than I can imagine someone who has always thought homosexuality was wrong but nonetheless couldn't help himself from doing it getting talked out of it by a group of sleazy ex-gays.  I did see a great porn once about an ex-gay retreat.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 24, 2006, 12:59:24 PM
How old were you when you first "knew" you were gay?

tough to say... absent societal norms and denial to confuse, somewhere around 8-10. 

Quote
Do you think that gay people tend to be aware of their sexuality at an earlier age because they are sexual at an early age? (for instance, it never occurred to me that I was "straight" until I was in my teens yet I have gay friends who remember being attracted to other boys at age 6).

OR do you think that it's part of "straight privilege" to not have to be aware of one's sexuality? (kinda like how whites aren't aware of their white privilege while blacks tend to be racially aware and know the consequences of blackness from an early age).

i don't think it's necessarily understanding your sexuality earlier, it's moreso recognizing a difference.  it's obviously hard to understand sexuality when you're still prepubescent, but it's not difficult to get the distinct impression that you aren't quite the same.  the straight privilege is an interesting concept to add into the mix, and i think there might be something to that.  believing you are different than others triggers attempts to fully understand what that difference is.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 24, 2006, 01:03:51 PM
I've known I liked boys since I was about 6, maybe even 5. I didn't know about sex then, obviously,but I definitely got the idea that boys are cute and I wanted to be around them.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 24, 2006, 01:15:21 PM
There should be a 'nodding thoughtfully in agreement' smiley emoticon doodad.

If there were one of those, I would have used it on you so many times!  Instead, I write my windy little posts...
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 24, 2006, 01:18:27 PM
How old were you when you first "knew" you were gay?

Do you think that gay people tend to be aware of their sexuality at an earlier age because they are sexual at an early age? (for instance, it never occurred to me that I was "straight" until I was in my teens yet I have gay friends who remember being attracted to other boys at age 6).

OR do you think that it's part of "straight privilege" to not have to be aware of one's sexuality? (kinda like how whites aren't aware of their white privilege while blacks tend to be racially aware and know the consequences of blackness from an early age).

I am much more on the "straight privilege" side of this question.  I think it's mostly that heterosexuality is the default category and gay kids notice that they're different because they aren't experiencing the same feelings people are telling them to feel. 

FWIW, I also think that there are lots of queer kids and teens (or kids and teens who turn out to be queer) who don't "know" at an early age.  There's a stereotype based in the privileged narratives of certain queer (and especially gay male) teens about queer kids being traumatized and in the closet for years, always knowing they were different, feeling marked, etc.  I think this actually makes it harder for some people to identify themselves because they don't feel so different or traumatized, and they wonder if all the kids have the same level of indifference to sex with girls or interest in the their friends' genitals or whatever. 

For me, I didn't start identifying myself as queer until I was 17 or 18, and I had been sexually active (for better or for worse) for several years before that.  I had messed around with a bunch of girls well before I even gave any thought to whether I might be a lesbian.  It just seemed like the normal straight-kinky thing to do when I was in high school, and indeed, some of my little companions are happily married and not at all queer-identified today. This may also go to dbgirl's question about the trendiness of bisexuality among high school girls.  It's just easy: you can get attention from boys, it's pregnancy-free, girls are pretty, your parents let you spend the night together, etc.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 24, 2006, 01:29:03 PM
How old were you when you first "knew" you were gay?

Do you think that gay people tend to be aware of their sexuality at an earlier age because they are sexual at an early age? (for instance, it never occurred to me that I was "straight" until I was in my teens yet I have gay friends who remember being attracted to other boys at age 6).

OR do you think that it's part of "straight privilege" to not have to be aware of one's sexuality? (kinda like how whites aren't aware of their white privilege while blacks tend to be racially aware and know the consequences of blackness from an early age).

I am much more on the "straight privilege" side of this question.  I think it's mostly that heterosexuality is the default category and gay kids notice that they're different because they aren't experiencing the same feelings people are telling them to feel. 

FWIW, I also think that there are lots of queer kids and teens (or kids and teens who turn out to be queer) who don't "know" at an early age.  There's a stereotype based in the privileged narratives of certain queer (and especially gay male) teens about queer kids being traumatized and in the closet for years, always knowing they were different, feeling marked, etc.  I think this actually makes it harder for some people to identify themselves because they don't feel so different or traumatized, and they wonder if all the kids have the same level of indifference to sex with girls or interest in the their friends' genitals or whatever. 

For me, I didn't start identifying myself as queer until I was 17 or 18, and I had been sexually active (for better or for worse) for several years before that.  I had messed around with a bunch of girls well before I even gave any thought to whether I might be a lesbian.  It just seemed like the normal straight-kinky thing to do when I was in high school, and indeed, some of my little companions are happily married and not at all queer-identified today. This may also go to dbgirl's question about the trendiness of bisexuality among high school girls. It's just easy: you can get attention from boys, it's pregnancy-free, girls are pretty, your parents let you spend the night together, etc.

Interesting. I always wondered what percentage of these "bisexual" girls are really bisexual and how many are just bored/curious teens.  I know when I was a teen, I did a lot of things because, well, I had nothing better to do and wondered what (insert inappropiate activity here) might be like.
I also wonder how many women "turn" lesbian because men can be such bad partners. I know a lot of straight women who exclaim in exasperation that they will just be a lesbian from now on.  I don't know anyone who has actually done it, but many have thought about it.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: joespecial on May 24, 2006, 01:36:44 PM
More comments from the people who've actually read and/or thought about it?

It's the patriarchy. Male fantasies about lesbians have permeated the culture and girls are picking up on that and doing it to please men. It's similar to the reasons for anorexia and bulimia.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 24, 2006, 01:45:11 PM
For me, I didn't start identifying myself as queer until I was 17 or 18, and I had been sexually active (for better or for worse) for several years before that.  I had messed around with a bunch of girls well before I even gave any thought to whether I might be a lesbian.  It just seemed like the normal straight-kinky thing to do when I was in high school, and indeed, some of my little companions are happily married and not at all queer-identified today. This may also go to dbgirl's question about the trendiness of bisexuality among high school girls. It's just easy: you can get attention from boys, it's pregnancy-free, girls are pretty, your parents let you spend the night together, etc.

Interesting. I always wondered what percentage of these "bisexual" girls are really bisexual and how many are just bored/curious teens.   I know when I was a teen, I did a lot of things because, well, I had nothing better to do and wondered what (insert inappropiate activity here) might be like.
I also wonder how many women "turn" lesbian because men can be such bad partners. I know a lot of straight women who exclaim in exasperation that they will just be a lesbian from now on.  I don't know anyone who has actually done it, but many have thought about it.

I think you're onto something about boredom and stuff, though sometimes I have to wonder whether there's a difference between "really" being bisexual and calling yourself bisexual while engaging in bisexual behaviors. I don't know if there's any there there, you know?  What you do is what you are, etc. :)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 24, 2006, 01:46:35 PM
Also, archival, Bonkers, I'm inserting an imaginary nods in thoughtful agreement smilicon here.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 24, 2006, 01:48:07 PM
For me, I didn't start identifying myself as queer until I was 17 or 18, and I had been sexually active (for better or for worse) for several years before that.  I had messed around with a bunch of girls well before I even gave any thought to whether I might be a lesbian.  It just seemed like the normal straight-kinky thing to do when I was in high school, and indeed, some of my little companions are happily married and not at all queer-identified today. This may also go to dbgirl's question about the trendiness of bisexuality among high school girls. It's just easy: you can get attention from boys, it's pregnancy-free, girls are pretty, your parents let you spend the night together, etc.

Interesting. I always wondered what percentage of these "bisexual" girls are really bisexual and how many are just bored/curious teens.   I know when I was a teen, I did a lot of things because, well, I had nothing better to do and wondered what (insert inappropiate activity here) might be like.
I also wonder how many women "turn" lesbian because men can be such bad partners. I know a lot of straight women who exclaim in exasperation that they will just be a lesbian from now on.  I don't know anyone who has actually done it, but many have thought about it.

I think you're onto something about boredom and stuff, though sometimes I have to wonder whether there's a difference between "really" being bisexual and calling yourself bisexual while engaging in bisexual behaviors. I don't know if there's any there there, you know?  What you do is what you are, etc. :)

I always thought of being bisexual as being capable of having a relationship with either men or women, emotional attachment all that stuff. So, I think it goes beyond just messing around ... I don't know, I'm no expert on human sexuality, that's why I'm asking.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dividebyzero on May 24, 2006, 01:49:45 PM
I actually thought about this thread when I woke up this morning...
Does that make me gay?  ;)

Question: The lisping, where does it come from? Amusing affectation, or something more sinister?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Phatmal on May 24, 2006, 01:51:38 PM
How old were you when you first "knew" you were gay?

Do you think that gay people tend to be aware of their sexuality at an earlier age because they are sexual at an early age? (for instance, it never occurred to me that I was "straight" until I was in my teens yet I have gay friends who remember being attracted to other boys at age 6).

OR do you think that it's part of "straight privilege" to not have to be aware of one's sexuality? (kinda like how whites aren't aware of their white privilege while blacks tend to be racially aware and know the consequences of blackness from an early age).

I knew I was gay when I turned 26.  I had suspected for quite a while and had "tendancies" all my life.  I didn't fully accept it as a known fact until I felt comfortable enough to come out to my siblings.  Then I knew without a doubt I was gay.

I don't think gays become more aware of their sexuality at an early age because they are aware of the fact that their feelings are a bit different from others.  I wasn't aware of why I wanted to get a girls attention when I was in the first grade, I just knew I wanted it.  I would say that it's not necessarily an awareness of sexuality at the time the act occurs but looking back on it later you start to see patterns that...but there is a straight privilage in that there is nothing that makes you actually have to think about your sexual attractions when you're a straight kid. You can basically assume that everyone feels like you.  I've never known of a straight kid who got beat up or black listed because he hit on a gay kid and the gay kid was offended by it.  At some point we have to be aware of our sexuality only in the respect of if we are going to act out on it.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 24, 2006, 01:53:02 PM
Why has it become trendy for teenage girls to be bisexual?
I actually read this, and I have observed it as well.

I suspect the roots include a male-gaze type thing, which I find icky. 

But I like that 'The L Word' was made, and that Rosie and Ellen (even if it was sorta coerced by whasserface) and other women have come out.  (Still waiting on Jodie Foster, or did I miss that?)  I'm old enough to remember when women kissing on network television was a big, big deal; was it LA Law?

More comments from the people who've actually read and/or thought about it?
I knew Rosie was a lesbian -- I admit, Ellen surprisede me a bit.  Jodie, I'm pretty sure she's a lesbian - I'm not sure why she won't say so. Perhaps she thinks it's really not anyone's business -- but she's a celebrity, of course her sex life is the public's business  :D
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 24, 2006, 01:54:15 PM
For me, I didn't start identifying myself as queer until I was 17 or 18, and I had been sexually active (for better or for worse) for several years before that.  I had messed around with a bunch of girls well before I even gave any thought to whether I might be a lesbian.  It just seemed like the normal straight-kinky thing to do when I was in high school, and indeed, some of my little companions are happily married and not at all queer-identified today. This may also go to dbgirl's question about the trendiness of bisexuality among high school girls. It's just easy: you can get attention from boys, it's pregnancy-free, girls are pretty, your parents let you spend the night together, etc.

Interesting. I always wondered what percentage of these "bisexual" girls are really bisexual and how many are just bored/curious teens.   I know when I was a teen, I did a lot of things because, well, I had nothing better to do and wondered what (insert inappropiate activity here) might be like.
I also wonder how many women "turn" lesbian because men can be such bad partners. I know a lot of straight women who exclaim in exasperation that they will just be a lesbian from now on.  I don't know anyone who has actually done it, but many have thought about it.

I think you're onto something about boredom and stuff, though sometimes I have to wonder whether there's a difference between "really" being bisexual and calling yourself bisexual while engaging in bisexual behaviors. I don't know if there's any there there, you know?  What you do is what you are, etc. :)

I always thought of being bisexual as being capable of having a relationship with either men or women, emotional attachment all that stuff. So, I think it goes beyond just messing around ... I don't know, I'm no expert on human sexuality, that's why I'm asking.

Neither am I!  I'm a disaster.  I hope my post didn't sound corrective because I am at least as unsure of myself as I am of you!  I meant it to say, like, who knows how much teenage sexuality is really coming from a place of "pure desire." I imagine so much of it is about conforming to one's peer group, pleasing others, getting attention, being bored, etc. So the difference between a real bisexual teenage girl and a poseur bisexual teenage girl seems impossible to determine.  The questions of how many continue to be bisexual throughout their lives, how many become lesbians, how many actually have sex with other girls (rather than, say, making out in front of a boy a few times), etc., seem much easier to determine.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Phatmal on May 24, 2006, 01:54:57 PM
Why has it become trendy for teenage girls to be bisexual?
I actually read this, and I have observed it as well.

Sexual freedom has been trendy amongst teens for 30+ years.  The difference is that your choice of the gender of your partner is less stigmatized.  Unfortunately for boys, they don't get to chalk it off as "experimentation" as easily as girls do...
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: aerynn on May 24, 2006, 01:55:15 PM
More comments from the people who've actually read and/or thought about it?

It's the patriarchy. Male fantasies about lesbians have permeated the culture and girls are picking up on that and doing it to please men. It's similar to the reasons for anorexia and bulimia.

TITCR
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dividebyzero on May 24, 2006, 01:55:32 PM

It definitely makes you curious.

I don't have any ideas on the lisping thing. Most gay people don't lisp.

Oh noes!
I must summon the power of the Super Jesus to cleanse me of the Gay.  :D
(Ahh, the hilarity...)

Everyone else I've asked has either said:
1) They didn't know either,
2) Denied they had a lithp. Thut up!  ;)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 24, 2006, 02:01:09 PM
I have request for the gay men here (especially Bonkers  ;))
Since you are reportedly all so fashionable, would you post some suggestions on this thread?

http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,63471.0.html

Thanks in advance  :D
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 24, 2006, 02:03:44 PM
Sexual freedom has been trendy amongst teens for 30+ years.  The difference is that your choice of the gender of your partner is less stigmatized.  Unfortunately for boys, they don't get to chalk it off as "experimentation" as easily as girls do...

i agree 100%.  women are allowed far more leniency in experimentation than men as far as social acceptance is concerned, so more take advantage of it. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 24, 2006, 02:09:47 PM
Why has it become trendy for teenage girls to be bisexual?
I actually read this, and I have observed it as well.

1. It's cool.

2. I think that because it's socially acceptable nowadays (and even beneficial) for girls to explore their sexuality, not only do girls feel free to try things out with other girls but they also feel free to openly ID as bisexual while they figure out their sexuality (almost all of the self-IDed bisexual girls I knew in high school reverted to "straight" once they grew out of their curiosity), whereas they might not have done so 20 years ago (even while still experimenting). So maybe it's not that the trend creates fake bisexuals (girls who have no interest in other girls but pretend to for attention) but rather, the trendiness of female bisexuality means that girls who would otherwise hide their bisexual feelings can openly act on them nowadays, thereby making it seem as if bisexuality among girls is suddenly on the rise (when all it is that it's suddenly in the open).

3. More than ever, women are sexualized in incredibly explicit ways (women have always been sexualized but now it's like really overt and normal--I don't think that 20 years ago, music videos with women in thongs, spreading their legs and jiggling everything in ways that leave nothing to the imagination, were aired on regular tv at hours when kids are likely to be watching). A lot of people realize what being bombarded with sexy images of women at a young age does to young boys, but what about girls? Girls have eyes too and girls are impressionable too. I'm starting to think that being bombarded at an early age with such explicit images of women might make young girls more likely to view other girls in sexual ways.

I don't think I explained 2 and 3 well so just catch the gist and don't expect perfect reasoning.

Edit: I see I'm way late with this response.

i love reason #2

that is all.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 24, 2006, 02:12:09 PM
Sexual freedom has been trendy amongst teens for 30+ years.  The difference is that your choice of the gender of your partner is less stigmatized.  Unfortunately for boys, they don't get to chalk it off as "experimentation" as easily as girls do...

i agree 100%.  women are allowed far more leniency in experimentation than men as far as social acceptance is concerned, so more take advantage of it. 

I can see that. I admit when I hear a teenage boy is bisexual I think he's probably just gay and hasn't come to terms with it. When I hear a girl is bisexual I think she's just entertaining herself.
I didn't really think about this until just now.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 24, 2006, 02:17:58 PM
I can see that. I admit when I hear a teenage boy is bisexual I think he's probably just gay and hasn't come to terms with it.

exactly... this is far more likely to be the case than the guy actually being a "real" bisexual, which i frequently question the existence of.  maybe i'm being hegemonic here, but i don't think so.  i've known plenty who have claimed to be, but they certainly don't act like it, and many later change their minds when they feel more comfortable. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ScoopNY on May 24, 2006, 06:17:15 PM
Quote
THAT would be really funny! But it would have to include teaching the white guy how to play basketball.

Hey, we're not miracle workers over here.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 25, 2006, 06:17:52 AM
Why has it become trendy for teenage girls to be bisexual?
I actually read this, and I have observed it as well.

I suspect the roots include a male-gaze type thing, which I find icky. 

But I like that 'The L Word' was made, and that Rosie and Ellen (even if it was sorta coerced by whasserface) and other women have come out.  (Still waiting on Jodie Foster, or did I miss that?)  I'm old enough to remember when women kissing on network television was a big, big deal; was it LA Law?

More comments from the people who've actually read and/or thought about it?

I knew Rosie was a lesbian -- I admit, Ellen surprisede me a bit.  Jodie, I'm pretty sure she's a lesbian - I'm not sure why she won't say so. Perhaps she thinks it's really not anyone's business -- but she's a celebrity, of course her sex life is the public's business  :D

I have a weird feeling she's asexual.  I'm not sure why I get that impression, though. :-\
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: incognito on May 25, 2006, 07:35:13 AM
For non-white homosexuals,do you feel as if you have more in common with white homosexuals or heterosexuals of your own ethnic or racial group?

Where the two agendas diverge (or where they compete for resources such as media attention, or where they conflict--as in black churches not supporting homosexual agenda), do you feel more "allegiance" to your ethnic or racial group, or do you feel more "allegiance" to other homosexuals?

If you could only address one group's agenda at a time (and have the other sit on the backburner): would you consider the struggle for equal rights for you ethnic group more pressing or the struggle of homosexuals?

Basically I'm just curious about how non-white homosexuals feel about the two different ways in which they are minorities and the two different struggles they face.

I'm white so I won't really answer your questions but I wanted to say you should check out Bayard Rustin.  He was a badass.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 25, 2006, 10:12:16 AM
For non-white homosexuals,do you feel as if you have more in common with white homosexuals or heterosexuals of your own ethnic or racial group?

Where the two agendas diverge (or where they compete for resources such as media attention, or where they conflict--as in black churches not supporting homosexual agenda), do you feel more "allegiance" to your ethnic or racial group, or do you feel more "allegiance" to other homosexuals?

If you could only address one group's agenda at a time (and have the other sit on the backburner): would you consider the struggle for equal rights for you ethnic group more pressing or the struggle of homosexuals?

Basically I'm just curious about how non-white homosexuals feel about the two different ways in which they are minorities and the two different struggles they face.

I don't know if this answers your question, and I am not sure I have standing, but here goes:

I grew up pretty whitebread, I am generally identified (by others and sometimes by myself) as white, and I do not have any strong affiliation with my non-white racial-ethnic group (and it doesn't have the same type of social movement history that African Americans, for instance, do).  It's clear to me, however, that race and class are the fundamental divisions in our society.  When it comes to politics, I am much more inclined to focus on material issues -- usually clustered by race and class -- than on questions of liberty, insofar as the two are any more than analytically distinct. 

But I don't know how to split myself up and identify with one or another part of me.  I am all sorts of different things (female, queer, middle class, etc.), and each feature probably has moments of salience and moments of irrelevance.  My sexuality is important in interpersonal interaction; my gender is important in the household; etc. I have never felt particulary torn between two worlds or five worlds or whatever.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on May 25, 2006, 10:53:02 AM
i just read this entire thread. so baff.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: odaiko on May 25, 2006, 10:11:08 PM
I don't know if this answers your question, and I am not sure I have standing, but here goes:

I grew up pretty whitebread, I am generally identified (by others and sometimes by myself) as white, and I do not have any strong affiliation with my non-white racial-ethnic group (and it doesn't have the same type of social movement history that African Americans, for instance, do).  It's clear to me, however, that race and class are the fundamental divisions in our society.  When it comes to politics, I am much more inclined to focus on material issues -- usually clustered by race and class -- than on questions of liberty, insofar as the two are any more than analytically distinct. 

But I don't know how to split myself up and identify with one or another part of me.  I am all sorts of different things (female, queer, middle class, etc.), and each feature probably has moments of salience and moments of irrelevance.  My sexuality is important in interpersonal interaction; my gender is important in the household; etc. I have never felt particulary torn between two worlds or five worlds or whatever.

Miss P, I must admit that I am intrigued about why you are reluctant to disclose your "non-white racial-ethnic group". I don't really care what group it is, but I wonder if you would explain why you don't want to post it here? (And I'm genuinely curious, not trolling.)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 25, 2006, 10:23:54 PM
This is a completely fair question.  I think, together with my other identifying features that are already all over the board, it might be sufficiently narrow to identify me to anyone I meet IRL.  And I have, for better or for worse, said a lot of very personal things on the OTB that I may not wish to have everyone associating with a real person they meet in a professional or academic context.  I hope that makes sense.  I thought about wading through and deleting a bunch of stuff, and I thought about starting a new account, but in the end, I just decided that it might be best to just let this character live out her life.

Also, I really am identified as white in most contexts, and I am fairly comfortable with that, as I think it accurately reflects my instinctive cultural affiliations, my class position, and my relationship to my family. 

This probably sounds ridiculous.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 25, 2006, 10:30:41 PM
This is a completely fair question.  I think, together with my other identifying features that are already all over the board, it might be sufficiently narrow to identify me to anyone I meet IRL.  And I have, for better or for worse, said a lot of very personal things on the OTB that I may not wish to have everyone associating with a real person they meet in a professional or academic context.  I hope that makes sense.  I thought about wading through and deleting a bunch of stuff, and I thought about starting a new account, but in the end, I just decided that it might be best to just let this character live out her life.

Also, I really am identified as white in most contexts, and I am fairly comfortable with that, as I think it accurately reflects my instinctive cultural affiliations, my class position, and my relationship to my family. 

This probably sounds ridiculous.
Is your ethnic mix that unusual?  Anyway, I guess I sort of know where you're coming from. If someone were to be bored enough to comb through all my posts they could figure out exactly who I am. Not that it's a huge secret, but ...

Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 25, 2006, 10:33:57 PM
Is your ethnic mix that unusual?  Anyway, I guess I sort of know where you're coming from. If someone were to be bored enough to comb through all my posts they could figure out exactly who I am. Not that it's a huge secret, but ...

Okay, how about vague terms: <redacted because someone just recognized me>.

EDIT both for length of quoting and to add: And I think more specificity, in combination with a number of things I have (for whatever reason) shared earlier and across all sorts of discussions, would identify me pretty clearly. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 25, 2006, 10:35:33 PM
For a while I assumed you were part black ... perhaps it was your venture over into the affirmative action threads.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 25, 2006, 10:39:51 PM
For a while I assumed you were part black ... perhaps it was your venture over into the affirmative action threads.

I am not black.  I am really embarrassed -- ashamed -- if anything I did or said looked as if I was trying to pass for black.  As for entering the AA discussions, it's something I think everyone should do.  I don't know.  I care a lot about race relations; I work at a civil rights organization; I have important roots in some POC and African American community spaces.  But I am NOT black.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 25, 2006, 10:41:43 PM
For a while I assumed you were part black ... perhaps it was your venture over into the affirmative action threads.

I am not black.  I am really embarrassed -- ashamed -- if anything I did or said looked like i was trying to pass for black.  As for entering the AA discussions, it's something I think everyone should do.  I don't know.  I care a lot about race relations; I work at a civil rights organization; I have important roots in some POC and African American community spaces.  But I am NOT black.
Shame on you Miss P! You black impersonator!  :D 
I don't think you said you were part black, I think I assumed.  People assume a lot of stuff on this board.

Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 25, 2006, 10:46:20 PM
Shame on you Miss P! You black impersonator!  :D 
I don't think you said you were part black, I think I assumed.  People assume a lot of stuff on this board.

People do indeed! A couple of people said stuff to me by PM or whatever about being black, though, so I knew it might be an issue.  I once thought of starting my own thread, "I am not black."  But I didn't.

As for the question you deleted.  No, I don't think so, but you are not at all the first to ask!  ;)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 25, 2006, 10:51:51 PM
Shame on you Miss P! You black impersonator!  :D 
I don't think you said you were part black, I think I assumed.  People assume a lot of stuff on this board.

People do indeed! A couple of people said stuff to me by PM or whatever about being black, though, so I knew it might be an issue.  I once thought of starting my own thread, "I am not black."  But I didn't.

As for the question you deleted.  No, I don't think so, but you are not at all the first to ask!  ;)
I thought the question I deleted was a bit too obnoxious  :D
Anyway, it's not up to you to start a thread to announce whose assumptions about you are right or wrong. I know most of the assumptions people make about me are wrong, but I don't think that's my fault.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 25, 2006, 10:56:32 PM
Shame on you Miss P! You black impersonator!  :D 
I don't think you said you were part black, I think I assumed.  People assume a lot of stuff on this board.

People do indeed! A couple of people said stuff to me by PM or whatever about being black, though, so I knew it might be an issue.  I once thought of starting my own thread, "I am not black."  But I didn't.

As for the question you deleted.  No, I don't think so, but you are not at all the first to ask!  ;)
I thought the question I deleted was a bit too obnoxious  :D
Anyway, it's not up to you to start a thread to announce whose assumptions about you are right or wrong. I know most of the assumptions people make about me are wrong, but I don't think that's my fault.

Not obnoxious, but rather quite funny.  And I'm completely serious when I tell you that some people who are very close to me have asked precisely that!

And it's true about the assumptions running both ways.  You know, for the longest time I thought you were that handsome cat who's married to Faith Hill.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 25, 2006, 11:38:35 PM
Don't worry, he'll be back.
This tar is only to demonstrate to blue that there are many black or biracial people who don't have dark brown eyes.
He apparently didn't know that.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 25, 2006, 11:43:35 PM
Don't worry, he'll be back.
This tar is only to demonstrate to blue that there are many black or biracial people who don't have dark brown eyes.
He apparently didn't know that.

Ah, blueb.  And you know he'd love him some green-eyed black girl too!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 26, 2006, 01:25:22 AM
Wait, DBGirl is black? I assumed she was white. I mean, what black person would have Tim McGraw for an avatar??

I know what you mean, Miss P, about not wanting to reveal too much. I think I have already given too much information about myself on here. I know from past, related experience there are people out there who, either because they are obsessed or because they have a photographic memory, will remember every post you ever made and quote it back to you if they figure out who you are in real life.

What's wrong with Tim McGraw? And why can't black people like him?
And I am black and white. Or white and black. Or gray, although I prefer the term taupe.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 26, 2006, 01:32:47 AM
What's wrong with Tim McGraw? And why can't black people like him?

(A) Nothing, and (B) they can if they want.

It's just that I don't usually see a Tim McGraw avatar and think, "Oh, that poster must be African-American."
People make a lot of 'tar based assumptions.
And I am biracial.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 26, 2006, 01:38:34 AM
There. I changed my 'tar to a black and white one to better reflect my racial heritage.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 26, 2006, 01:41:48 AM
I don't wish I looked like Tim.
I just like him.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 26, 2006, 08:05:40 AM
should just have a thread about unspoken assumptions about other posters.  i'm not sure why everyone thought miss p was black.  i always assumed she was as white as they come.   ;)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on May 26, 2006, 08:06:30 AM
It'd be cool to start a thread about what race people think other posters (who haven't disclosed their race) are. I thought Miss P was biracial black then biracial asian and then I was like ??? I knew Dbgirl was black but I didn't know she was biracial. There are some others that confuse me.

What's weird is that internet personalities are even assigned a "race". Does everyone need some kind of racial context to place someone's comments? It sucks that just because Miss P seems to care about African American issues, people assumed she was Black. (I didn't make the assumption at all, I knew she wasn't) Just goes to show why people have to assign a race to you IRL - and if they can't make a good guess, then they'll ask you - wtf? why do total strangers feel that it's okay to ask someone their race?


/rant.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on May 26, 2006, 08:24:39 AM
It'd be cool to start a thread about what race people think other posters (who haven't disclosed their race) are. I thought Miss P was biracial black then biracial asian and then I was like ??? I knew Dbgirl was black but I didn't know she was biracial. There are some others that confuse me.

What's weird is that internet personalities are even assigned a "race". Does everyone need some kind of racial context to place someone's comments? It sucks that just because Miss P seems to care about African American issues, people assumed she was Black. (I didn't make the assumption at all, I knew she wasn't) Just goes to show why people have to assign a race to you IRL - and if they can't make a good guess, then they'll ask you - wtf? why do total strangers feel that it's okay to ask someone their race?


/rant.

I think you have the wrong impression. For me, I don't have to assign a race to people. But when people make posts that indicate they're part of a certain race, then I assume they are--until further notice.

Ideally anyone could care about black issues even if they weren't black but IRL, it tends to be that people are insensitive or only mildly curious about issues that don't affect them personally. It's a rare person who understands enough to post insightfully about minority issues when they're visually white. Heck, it's a rare person who cares enough to engage themselves with the issues affecting groups they're not part of. So most often, when I see someone actively discussing (not just trolling or saying stupid things) minority issues, I assume they're a minority...and I'm almost always right.


I wasn't singling you out. However, my point still stands that it's odd that people feel compelled make unwarranted assumptions about the race of internet posters, and how this plays right into the real life phenomena of people being asked what race they are if it's not readily apparent to the viewer. It's sorta odd that people make any assumptions at all (I've been PMed several times and asked if I am a lesbian). The fact of the matter is that people think these identities give form to a particular viewpoint. And often they do, but just as often, they don't.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 26, 2006, 08:33:36 AM
I wasn't singling you out. However, my point still stands that it's odd that people feel compelled make unwarranted assumptions about the race of internet posters, and how this plays right into the real life phenomena of people being asked what race they are if it's not readily apparent to the viewer. It's sorta odd that people make any assumptions at all (I've been PMed several times and asked if I am a lesbian). The fact of the matter is that people think these identities give form to a particular viewpoint. And often they do, but just as often, they don't.

like it or not, people make assumptions and always will.  obviously these assumptions are often flawed in their development and in the conclusion.  however, we make them all the time, often unconsciously.  i think it's very important for people to express those assumptions and ask questions, even if it exposes very flawed justifications/conclusions, because it offers an important opportunity to expose the fallacies in people's lines of thinking and the stereotypes that ground their assumptions.  being in a heteronormative society, people often assume i'm straight when they first meet me because it's considered to be the norm.  people will ask me if i have a girlfriend or ask me if i think some girl is "hot".  it's annoying in that it exposes a societal ignorance and lack of sensitivity, but the exposition of that ignorance plays a critical role in dismantling it when people learn the truth and realize that they made unwarranted leaps to reach a conclusion. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on May 26, 2006, 08:40:53 AM
I wasn't singling you out. However, my point still stands that it's odd that people feel compelled make unwarranted assumptions about the race of internet posters, and how this plays right into the real life phenomena of people being asked what race they are if it's not readily apparent to the viewer. It's sorta odd that people make any assumptions at all (I've been PMed several times and asked if I am a lesbian). The fact of the matter is that people think these identities give form to a particular viewpoint. And often they do, but just as often, they don't.

like it or not, people make assumptions and always will.  obviously these assumptions are often flawed in their development and in the conclusion.  however, we make them all the time, often unconsciously.  i think it's very important for people to express those assumptions and ask questions, even if it exposes very flawed justifications/conclusions, because it offers an important opportunity to expose the fallacies in people's lines of thinking and the stereotypes that ground their assumptions.  being in a heteronormative society, people often assume i'm straight when they first meet me because it's considered to be the norm.  people will ask me if i have a girlfriend or ask me if i think some girl is "hot".  it's annoying in that it exposes a societal ignorance and lack of sensitivity, but the exposition of that ignorance plays a critical role in dismantling it when people learn the truth and realize that they made unwarranted leaps to reach a conclusion. 

I just think it's interesting that sexuality and race are thought of as characteristics that are informative as to how a person thinks about things.  When you're thinking about something and you make an assumption, you're only making an assumption because you need that information to draw a conclusion. Otherwise, you'd leave it out. No one made any assumptions about MissP's favorite flavor of ice cream. I am speaking more to the apparent need to make assumptions, rather than making definitive value judgments on why people do it. Obviously, I make my own assumptions like everyone else.

It's just interesting to me b/c I'm used to the concept that people will just ask what race you are. In the absence of physical evidence (here on this message board), we just make our best guess based on what they say. Fascinating. But don't mind me, I was a psychology major.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 26, 2006, 08:49:13 AM
I wasn't singling you out. However, my point still stands that it's odd that people feel compelled make unwarranted assumptions about the race of internet posters, and how this plays right into the real life phenomena of people being asked what race they are if it's not readily apparent to the viewer. It's sorta odd that people make any assumptions at all (I've been PMed several times and asked if I am a lesbian). The fact of the matter is that people think these identities give form to a particular viewpoint. And often they do, but just as often, they don't.

like it or not, people make assumptions and always will.  obviously these assumptions are often flawed in their development and in the conclusion.  however, we make them all the time, often unconsciously.  i think it's very important for people to express those assumptions and ask questions, even if it exposes very flawed justifications/conclusions, because it offers an important opportunity to expose the fallacies in people's lines of thinking and the stereotypes that ground their assumptions.  being in a heteronormative society, people often assume i'm straight when they first meet me because it's considered to be the norm.  people will ask me if i have a girlfriend or ask me if i think some girl is "hot".  it's annoying in that it exposes a societal ignorance and lack of sensitivity, but the exposition of that ignorance plays a critical role in dismantling it when people learn the truth and realize that they made unwarranted leaps to reach a conclusion. 

I just think it's interesting that sexuality and race are thought of as characteristics that are informative as to how a person thinks about things.  When you're thinking about something and you make an assumption, you're only making an assumption because you need that information to draw a conclusion. Otherwise, you'd leave it out. No one made any assumptions about MissP's favorite flavor of ice cream. I am speaking more to the apparent need to make assumptions, rather than making definitive value judgments on why people do it. Obviously, I make my own assumptions like everyone else.

It's just interesting to me b/c I'm used to the concept that people will just ask what race you are. In the absence of physical evidence (here on this message board), we just make our best guess based on what they say. Fascinating. But don't mind me, I was a psychology major.

im going to guess, tooty fruity!

;D
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 26, 2006, 08:52:45 AM
However, my point still stands that it's odd that people feel compelled make unwarranted assumptions about the race of internet posters, and how this plays right into the real life phenomena of people being asked what race they are if it's not readily apparent to the viewer. It's sorta odd that people make any assumptions at all (I've been PMed several times and asked if I am a lesbian). The fact of the matter is that people think these identities give form to a particular viewpoint. And often they do, but just as often, they don't.

It had never once occurred to me that you might be a lesbian, CN, but now that it has, watch out!  :D

Thanks, everyone, for the thoughtful discussion.  I pretty much agree with CN that it's funny that we have to put everyone -- even people who are ultimately fake to us -- in race boxes when they aren't putting their race forward as meaningful in the particular context.  But we all do it, make voices and faces for everyone (CN, you look a bit like Kimora Lee Simmons, even though she's Japanese, but your voice is like Susan Sarandon's; Bonkers is obviously Adam Brody through and through, as he mentioned; etc.).  To put a positive spin on it, maybe our assumptions are a reflection of a real consideration of people's stories alongside an acknowledgement that gender and race and all these other things crucially affect people's lives and opportunities.  (I also agree with trogdor that it may provide opportunities for us to think about the origins of our stereotypes, etc.)

Finally, I am, of course, flattered by the idea that I might be an exceptional non-black person (thanks, LT), but I resist these types of characterizations, for me and for others.  I try to fight racial inequality, including the way it shapes my own racism.  There shouldn't be anything particularly special about it.  My engagement may be unusual due to some of my interests, personal relationships, and experience, but that ends up giving me more opportunities for mistakes, too.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 26, 2006, 09:33:15 AM
Finally, I am, of course, flattered by the idea that I might be an exceptional non-black person (thanks, LT),

This sounds bad to me in a way. I hope you didn't think I was being patronizing.

No, not at all!  You are always straight-up, respectful, cool.  Oh, jeez.  Sorry.

Quote
You're right--there shouldn't be anything special about it but I find that there is. IMO there just aren't enough people who take more than a cursory interest in issues that aren't seen as affecting them directly. So I find you unusual (which is why I'm slightly confused about why you would resist that 'characterization'--do you think people who engage themselves in issues that dont' necessarily directly affect them are common?)

No, maybe you're right, it's not terribly common.  CN's post above really hits it: it happens, but probably more in places like progressive colleges where everyone is relatively safe and comfortable, but these places are pretty rare.  My main instinct is simply to hold that everyone should share these commitments to justice and equality; they are universal and not minoritarian values.  I don't think you can imagine justice and equality in the US context without special attention to race, and particularly to African American history.

Of course, I also understand why do people focus on the things that affect them most personally and directly (and negatively, that is).  I don't mean to diminish this good work, and I think it lends social movements credibility to have people speak about their experiences and connect their intuitions about the way the world is functioning for them to public debates about allocation of resources and such. 

I guess what I meant most of all was that I think humility is important, especially for "allies."  I could never understand what it is like to be black, at least not any more than I could understand what it is like to enjoy vanilla ice cream or what it is like to be male. I think sometimes when people tell me they think I'm down or whatever that it privileges my position too much, and that seems really crummy.  I am not feeling very articulate about this, but I hope it makes some sense.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 26, 2006, 09:36:38 AM
And funny that I look like Kimora Simmons  :D Actually, I've been told many, many times that I strongly favor Amerie (a newish pop&b singer).

Well, well, well... Lucky Harvard boys!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on May 26, 2006, 09:40:14 AM
And funny that I look like Kimora Simmons  :D Actually, I've been told many, many times that I strongly favor Amerie (a newish pop&b singer).

Well, well, well... Lucky Harvard boys!

Thanks. I just wanted to give you a more accurate mental picture  :D :D Maybe I'll luck up and find some Harvard boy engaged in feminism. I always think I'll be just fine without a male around...and then I need a jar opened or a bug squashed  ;D
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 26, 2006, 09:42:58 AM
And funny that I look like Kimora Simmons  :D Actually, I've been told many, many times that I strongly favor Amerie (a newish pop&b singer).

Well, well, well... Lucky Harvard boys!

Thanks. I just wanted to give you a more accurate mental picture  :D :D Maybe I'll luck up and find some Harvard boy engaged in feminism. I always think I'll be just fine without a male around...and then I need a jar opened or a bug squashed  ;D

Tell me about it! 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Angelina1 on May 26, 2006, 09:53:36 AM
I wasn't singling you out. However, my point still stands that it's odd that people feel compelled make unwarranted assumptions about the race of internet posters, and how this plays right into the real life phenomena of people being asked what race they are if it's not readily apparent to the viewer. It's sorta odd that people make any assumptions at all (I've been PMed several times and asked if I am a lesbian). The fact of the matter is that people think these identities give form to a particular viewpoint. And often they do, but just as often, they don't.

like it or not, people make assumptions and always will.  obviously these assumptions are often flawed in their development and in the conclusion.  however, we make them all the time, often unconsciously.  i think it's very important for people to express those assumptions and ask questions, even if it exposes very flawed justifications/conclusions, because it offers an important opportunity to expose the fallacies in people's lines of thinking and the stereotypes that ground their assumptions.  being in a heteronormative society, people often assume i'm straight when they first meet me because it's considered to be the norm.  people will ask me if i have a girlfriend or ask me if i think some girl is "hot".  it's annoying in that it exposes a societal ignorance and lack of sensitivity, but the exposition of that ignorance plays a critical role in dismantling it when people learn the truth and realize that they made unwarranted leaps to reach a conclusion. 

Maybe it's because I live in NYC, but that's why I always use the term "significant other" when discussing personal life with someone I don't know. I also have always hated the terms "girlfriend" and "boyfriend"--it's so 7th grade!
The use of the alternate term solves both problems.  ;)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 26, 2006, 09:54:22 AM
And funny that I look like Kimora Simmons  :D Actually, I've been told many, many times that I strongly favor Amerie (a newish pop&b singer).

Well, well, well... Lucky Harvard boys!

Thanks. I just wanted to give you a more accurate mental picture  :D :D Maybe I'll luck up and find some Harvard boy engaged in feminism. I always think I'll be just fine without a male around...and then I need a jar opened or a bug squashed  ;D

Tell me about it! 


 ::) ::) ::)

thats what you have those body builder lezb0s for
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 26, 2006, 09:56:48 AM
However, my point still stands that it's odd that people feel compelled make unwarranted assumptions about the race of internet posters, and how this plays right into the real life phenomena of people being asked what race they are if it's not readily apparent to the viewer. It's sorta odd that people make any assumptions at all (I've been PMed several times and asked if I am a lesbian). The fact of the matter is that people think these identities give form to a particular viewpoint. And often they do, but just as often, they don't.

It had never once occurred to me that you might be a lesbian, CN, but now that it has, watch out!  :D

Thanks, everyone, for the thoughtful discussion.  I pretty much agree with CN that it's funny that we have to put everyone -- even people who are ultimately fake to us -- in race boxes when they aren't putting their race forward as meaningful in the particular context.  But we all do it, make voices and faces for everyone (CN, you look a bit like Kimora Lee Simmons, even though she's Japanese, but your voice is like Susan Sarandon's; Bonkers is obviously Adam Brody through and through, as he mentioned; etc.).  To put a positive spin on it, maybe our assumptions are a reflection of a real consideration of people's stories alongside an acknowledgement that gender and race and all these other things crucially affect people's lives and opportunities. (I also agree with trogdor that it may provide opportunities for us to think about the origins of our stereotypes, etc.)

Finally, I am, of course, flattered by the idea that I might be an exceptional non-black person (thanks, LT), but I resist these types of characterizations, for me and for others.  I try to fight racial inequality, including the way it shapes my own racism.  There shouldn't be anything particularly special about it.  My engagement may be unusual due to some of my interests, personal relationships, and experience, but that ends up giving me more opportunities for mistakes, too.

Honestly Miss P you have a different personality than a lot of white people I have talked to. That is why I assumed you had some sort of race mixture, but I may have "misread" you because you simply have a different point of view than a lot of whites, even a lot of liberal whites I have encountered.

What I find interesting as far as I go is that people would assume that I'm entirely black or entirely white. I can't remember saying anything that would indicate either. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 26, 2006, 09:58:14 AM
Maybe it's because I live in NYC, but that's why I always use the term "significant other" when discussing personal life with someone I don't know. I also have always hated the terms "girlfriend" and "boyfriend"--it's so 7th grade!
The use of the alternate term solves both problems.  ;)

yeah, up until living in DC, i lived in smaller cities that weren't as "progressive" (to say the least), so the girlfriend standard was just that... standard.  you mean, there are gay people in places other than SF?!   :o 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 26, 2006, 09:58:30 AM
I wasn't singling you out. However, my point still stands that it's odd that people feel compelled make unwarranted assumptions about the race of internet posters, and how this plays right into the real life phenomena of people being asked what race they are if it's not readily apparent to the viewer. It's sorta odd that people make any assumptions at all (I've been PMed several times and asked if I am a lesbian). The fact of the matter is that people think these identities give form to a particular viewpoint. And often they do, but just as often, they don't.

like it or not, people make assumptions and always will.  obviously these assumptions are often flawed in their development and in the conclusion.  however, we make them all the time, often unconsciously.  i think it's very important for people to express those assumptions and ask questions, even if it exposes very flawed justifications/conclusions, because it offers an important opportunity to expose the fallacies in people's lines of thinking and the stereotypes that ground their assumptions.  being in a heteronormative society, people often assume i'm straight when they first meet me because it's considered to be the norm.  people will ask me if i have a girlfriend or ask me if i think some girl is "hot".  it's annoying in that it exposes a societal ignorance and lack of sensitivity, but the exposition of that ignorance plays a critical role in dismantling it when people learn the truth and realize that they made unwarranted leaps to reach a conclusion. 

Maybe it's because I live in NYC, but that's why I always use the term "significant other" when discussing personal life with someone I don't know. I also have always hated the terms "girlfriend" and "boyfriend"--it's so 7th grade!
The use of the alternate term solves both problems.  ;)
I like the word boyfriend. But I'm not stuck in 7th grade. I'm stuck in high school.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 26, 2006, 09:58:54 AM
Thanks. I just wanted to give you a more accurate mental picture  :D :D Maybe I'll luck up and find some Harvard boy engaged in feminism. I always think I'll be just fine without a male around...and then I need a jar opened or a bug squashed  ;D

Tell me about it! 


 ::) ::) ::)

thats what you have those body builder lezb0s for

Oooh, how much do those cost?  And how much room do you need for storage?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Angelina1 on May 26, 2006, 09:59:26 AM
Maybe it's because I live in NYC, but that's why I always use the term "significant other" when discussing personal life with someone I don't know. I also have always hated the terms "girlfriend" and "boyfriend"--it's so 7th grade!
The use of the alternate term solves both problems.  ;)

yeah, up until living in DC, i lived in smaller cities that weren't as "progressive" (to say the least), so the girlfriend standard was just that... standard.  you mean, there are gay people in places other than SF?!   :o 

 :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 26, 2006, 10:00:48 AM
Honestly Miss P you have a different personality than a lot of white people I have talked to. That is why I assumed you had some sort of race mixture, but I may have "misread" you because you simply have a different point of view than a lot of whites, even a lot of liberal whites I have encountered.

What I find interesting as far as I go is that people would assume that I'm entirely black or entirely white. I can't remember saying anything that would indicate either. 

I think I have a different "personality" -- if you'll give me that much credit -- than most people of any race, creed, or color! ;)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 26, 2006, 10:03:09 AM
I remember at my school's orientation, one of the women spoke about her supportive partner ... then I ran into her in the "toy store" and she was with another woman.  I, being so terribly bright, put two and two together and just "knew" she was  lesbian.
Then, a gay guy I know assumed the same thing from the term "partner." He introduced himself to her because he thought it would be nice to meet other gay people at school. He said something like "I just wanted to meet you, because you said you were gay." She looked puzzled.  Anyway, it turned out she was referring to her boyfriend as her partner. (
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 26, 2006, 10:08:45 AM
Honestly Miss P you have a different personality than a lot of white people I have talked to. That is why I assumed you had some sort of race mixture, but I may have "misread" you because you simply have a different point of view than a lot of whites, even a lot of liberal whites I have encountered.

What I find interesting as far as I go is that people would assume that I'm entirely black or entirely white. I can't remember saying anything that would indicate either. 

I think I have a different "personality" -- if you'll give me that much credit -- than most people of any race, creed, or color! ;)
I think that's true of me too. Perhaps that's why we get along.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: finally on May 26, 2006, 10:10:30 AM
I think starting the a "guess what I am thread" would be interesting.  I just think you guys should be careful not to get offended if someone says the wrong thing (unless they are trolls; then feel free) !  ;)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 26, 2006, 10:12:06 AM
I don't think race/ethnicity = what I am.

Perhaps a guess my race or ethnicity thread would be amusing.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: finally on May 26, 2006, 10:15:11 AM
Well if you guys start one just be careful.  Don't be hypersensitive; it may cloud the discussion.  Just make sure you remain open minded   ;)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 26, 2006, 10:15:46 AM
I think I have a different "personality" -- if you'll give me that much credit -- than most people of any race, creed, or color! ;)
I think that's true of me too. Perhaps that's why we get along.

 ;D

And on the "partner" story -- you would not believe how often this happens, including seeing the questionable subject there with another woman at the toy store!  I have a butchy, bookish straight female friend who always refers to her common-law husband as "my partner, Chris," and you would not believe the way people's jaws drop when they meet Christopher.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 26, 2006, 10:17:26 AM
Hey, just for LT -- thanks!  And you weren't behind, I was muddled.  I was up way too late last night.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 26, 2006, 10:25:58 AM
I have rarely been mistaken for a lesbian (despite spending an inordinate amount of time on this thread!)
I can recall a couple of incidents, however. Once, in college, a classmate referred to our teacher (who a lot of people wrongly assumed was a lesbian) as a "man hater." I was going through a particularly angry phase at the time and said "I hate men too." From then on, that guy assumed I was a lesbian -- even though that was the only thing I ever said to "imply" that. Suddenly I was his new "lesbian friend" at school,he didn't use the term, but he acted that way. It was too bad, because I really found him attractive, but it seemed like shouting "Hey! I'm not a lesbian OK!" would just make it seem like I was in denial.

The only other time I've been mistaken for a lesbian is when my editor decided to "shake things up" at my newspaper by doing a package about homosexuals. I did a lesbian couple profile. I got serious hate mail, accusing me of having an "agenda."  But there was this really nice guy, who called me and told me he was really happy for me and my partner.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 26, 2006, 10:36:02 AM
That is all funny...

I would like to proclaim today (Friday), as Honor Our Non-Gay-Identified Supportive Brothers/Sisters/Trans No Racial Assumptions Day. I think while we are remembering the Veterans, it is even more timely to remember these people.

 :D :D :D  amen!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: finally on May 26, 2006, 10:37:25 AM


That is all funny...

I would like to proclaim today (Friday), as Honor Our Non-Gay-Identified Supportive Brothers/Sisters/Trans No Racial Assumptions Day. I think while we are remembering the Veterans, it is even more timely to remember these people.
[/quote]

LOL.  that's cute!   ;)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 26, 2006, 10:41:15 AM
I would like to proclaim today (Friday), as Honor Our Non-Gay-Identified Supportive Brothers/Sisters/Trans No Racial Assumptions Day. I think while we are remembering the Veterans, it is even more timely to remember these people.

Can I take a half-day?  I am envisioning a nice mani-pedi before the rain sets in.  I may even try a new color to memorialize the occasion.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: finally on May 26, 2006, 10:42:39 AM
I would like to proclaim today (Friday), as Honor Our Non-Gay-Identified Supportive Brothers/Sisters/Trans No Racial Assumptions Day. I think while we are remembering the Veterans, it is even more timely to remember these people.

Can I take a half-day?  I am envisioning a nice mani-pedi before the rain sets in.  I may even try a new color to memorialize the occasion.

lol, by all means the toes have to look right on this day!  
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on May 26, 2006, 10:43:05 AM
I would like to proclaim today (Friday), as Honor Our Non-Gay-Identified Supportive Brothers/Sisters/Trans No Racial Assumptions Day. I think while we are remembering the Veterans, it is even more timely to remember these people.

Can I take a half-day?  I am envisioning a nice mani-pedi before the rain sets in.  I may even try a new color to memorialize the occasion.


What color?? May I suggest OPI's Kinki in Helsinki
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 26, 2006, 10:49:15 AM
I would like to proclaim today (Friday), as Honor Our Non-Gay-Identified Supportive Brothers/Sisters/Trans No Racial Assumptions Day. I think while we are remembering the Veterans, it is even more timely to remember these people.

Can I take a half-day?  I am envisioning a nice mani-pedi before the rain sets in.  I may even try a new color to memorialize the occasion.


What color?? May I suggest OPI's Kinki in Helsinki

I have never seen KIH before, but I like the name! I am a Got the Blues for Red (formerly Malaga Wine) gal in general.

Also, Bonkers, I would love to see the look on my boss's face as he read this thread.  Perhaps I'll enclose it with my resignation letter if I can't muster the nerve today.  :D
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 26, 2006, 10:50:17 AM
I would like to proclaim today (Friday), as Honor Our Non-Gay-Identified Supportive Brothers/Sisters/Trans No Racial Assumptions Day. I think while we are remembering the Veterans, it is even more timely to remember these people.

Can I take a half-day?  I am envisioning a nice mani-pedi before the rain sets in.  I may even try a new color to memorialize the occasion.

lol, by all means the toes have to look right on this day!  

Oh, you and toes...  ;)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: finally on May 26, 2006, 10:52:12 AM
I would like to proclaim today (Friday), as Honor Our Non-Gay-Identified Supportive Brothers/Sisters/Trans No Racial Assumptions Day. I think while we are remembering the Veterans, it is even more timely to remember these people.

Can I take a half-day?  I am envisioning a nice mani-pedi before the rain sets in.  I may even try a new color to memorialize the occasion.

lol, by all means the toes have to look right on this day!  

Oh, you and toes...  ;)

LOL, I couldn't resist the shout out to blueb   :D :D
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on May 26, 2006, 10:52:33 AM
I would like to proclaim today (Friday), as Honor Our Non-Gay-Identified Supportive Brothers/Sisters/Trans No Racial Assumptions Day. I think while we are remembering the Veterans, it is even more timely to remember these people.

Can I take a half-day?  I am envisioning a nice mani-pedi before the rain sets in.  I may even try a new color to memorialize the occasion.


What color?? May I suggest OPI's Kinki in Helsinki

I have never seen KIH before, but I like the name! I am a Got the Blues for Red (formerly Malaga Wine) gal in general.

Also, Bonkers, I would love to see the look on my boss's face as he read this thread.  Perhaps I'll enclose it with my resignation letter if I can't muster the nerve today.  :D

Malaga Wine is my holy grail red. How's it diff from GtBfR? KiH is a shimmery iridescent dark purple-pink. A very fun summertime color.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 26, 2006, 10:53:47 AM
Miss P,
What's so hard about resigning?
To me, there isn't a better feeling in the world than saying "See Ya!"
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 26, 2006, 11:01:25 AM
Malaga Wine is my holy grail red. How's it diff from GtBfR? KiH is a shimmery iridescent dark purple-pink. A very fun summertime color.

I think GtBfR is just barely different, slightly brighter or less bloody looking, but the same true-red (or blue-red, depending on your perspective on what is a "true red") tone.  But now you have me nostalgic for my roots.  MW is really just the best color there is. 

And KiH sounds perfect for the occasion.  I never go shimmery, but I love magenta and other purply pinks -- a perfect break-out-of-your-rut combination of risk and comfort.  So thank you for the recommendation!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 26, 2006, 11:03:35 AM
Miss P,
What's so hard about resigning?
To me, there isn't a better feeling in the world than saying "See Ya!"


Good point!  It does feel really liberatory.  And almost everyone knows I'm going, so it probably won't be a big deal.  But I love my job, the work, (most of) my supervisors, nearly all of my colleagues. It's going to be a very tough spot to leave.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: incognito on May 26, 2006, 11:25:17 AM
I wonder what mr. bonkers looks like?  All I can think of is dark hair.  And not obese.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 26, 2006, 11:33:46 AM
Black nails, huh?

What about skinny jeans?

Ran into a friend of mine about my age (which is older than most of you) on the train this morning, and she was rocking this look, deep brown (not black) short nails, long sheer tee, skinny jeans, ostentatiously scuffed designer flats, and I almost laughed.  But she did look kinda cute.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 26, 2006, 12:14:14 PM
Miss P,
What's so hard about resigning?
To me, there isn't a better feeling in the world than saying "See Ya!"


Good point!  It does feel really liberatory.  And almost everyone knows I'm going, so it probably won't be a big deal.  But I love my job, the work, (most of) my supervisors, nearly all of my colleagues. It's going to be a very tough spot to leave.

do they give you nookie breaks?

id prefer those over coffee/smoking.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 26, 2006, 12:41:26 PM
Good point!  It does feel really liberatory.  And almost everyone knows I'm going, so it probably won't be a big deal.  But I love my job, the work, (most of) my supervisors, nearly all of my colleagues. It's going to be a very tough spot to leave.

do they give you nookie breaks?

id prefer those over coffee/smoking.

They don't give them, but I've been known to take them on occasion.
And I don't smoke during the day or hang out by the coffee machine, so I figure I deserve a little gratification or stimulation on my own terms.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 26, 2006, 12:44:27 PM
Good point!  It does feel really liberatory.  And almost everyone knows I'm going, so it probably won't be a big deal.  But I love my job, the work, (most of) my supervisors, nearly all of my colleagues. It's going to be a very tough spot to leave.

do they give you nookie breaks?

id prefer those over coffee/smoking.

They don't give them, but I've been known to take them on occasion.
And I don't smoke during the day or hang out by the coffee machine, so I figure I deserve a little gratification or stimulation on my own terms.

:)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 26, 2006, 12:57:49 PM
(snip)

and I almost laughed.  But she did look kinda cute.

See, that's my fear!  Cute, but funny/incongruous too.  Pegleg pants are so middle school for me.

I'm sure in your case it's 100% cute.  You are, after all, one of my secret LSD crushes. 
And the fact that you know to call them pegleg pants -- ah! *Swoons*
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 26, 2006, 03:35:32 PM
Genius!  I couldn't imagine better news to start the weekend.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: posnerd on May 26, 2006, 08:56:08 PM
Why do some homosexuals, who by definition do not wish to engage in heterosexual sex, desire to have children, whom are typically created by said action?

Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Angelina1 on May 26, 2006, 09:03:41 PM
Why do some homosexuals, who by definition do not wish to engage in heterosexual sex, desire to have children, whom are typically created by said action?



Well, i won't presume to hijack the role of resident expert here; instead, I will pose a counter-question: why do so many heterosexuals have sex, which biologically is for the purpose of making children, when they don't want children?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 26, 2006, 10:22:12 PM
Why do some homosexuals, who by definition do not wish to engage in heterosexual sex, desire to have children, whom are typically created by said action?

Well, i won't presume to hijack the role of resident expert here; instead, I will pose a counter-question: why do so many heterosexuals have sex, which biologically is for the purpose of making children, when they don't want children?

Yes, why do you want to eat* souffles that you don't care to learn to cook?  Why do you want to drive* cars that you haven't yourself learned to manufacture, or even fix?  Why do you want to take advantage* of medical advances that you haven't yourself even investigated?  etc.

No offense, but this just seems like nonsense to me.  Is it really the fact that heterosexuals are able to produce children through their sexual intercourse what legitimates their family choices?  What about people with fertility and health problems?  What about people who adopt for religious and moral purposes? 

*not that I am advocating eating, driving, or taking advantage of children.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 26, 2006, 10:36:27 PM
ur still awake???  ;)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: odaiko on May 27, 2006, 10:20:44 AM
Do male homosexuals prefer male children to female children when adopting?

Is it the opposite for lesbians?

As a gay man, I would take either, but I would probably prefer female children. If I had a son I would need to find a good hetero male role model he could hang out with, because if he develops typical straight male interests (sports, cars, fixing things) I would be completely clueless... but I would always be available to discuss ballet and Madonna's career trajectory.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: posnerd on May 27, 2006, 10:35:57 AM
Why do some homosexuals, who by definition do not wish to engage in heterosexual sex, desire to have children, whom are typically created by said action?



Well, i won't presume to hijack the role of resident expert here; instead, I will pose a counter-question: why do so many heterosexuals have sex, which biologically is for the purpose of making children, when they don't want children?

I think many people would answer that their is an innate drive to procreate... sex is pleasurable... and the high cost of raising a child coupled with technological advancement allows us to enjoy sexual intercourse while forgoing conception and the rearing of a child.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 27, 2006, 10:36:53 AM
Do male homosexuals prefer male children to female children when adopting?

Is it the opposite for lesbians?

I had never heard this.  I know gay men with boys (only one family) and lots of lesbians with both boys and girls.  I think, given the fact that it is very common for women (single mothers, for instance) to be primary caregivers to both male and female children, women might have less of the anxiety Odaiko describes about having children of one sex or the other.  And Odaiko, I don't think you should worry too much.  Plenty of women who are helpless in sports and such have reared perfectly butchity little boys.  You would do just fine.  
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 27, 2006, 10:41:11 AM
Why do some homosexuals, who by definition do not wish to engage in heterosexual sex, desire to have children, whom are typically created by said action?



Well, i won't presume to hijack the role of resident expert here; instead, I will pose a counter-question: why do so many heterosexuals have sex, which biologically is for the purpose of making children, when they don't want children?

I think many people would answer that their is an innate drive to procreate... sex is pleasurable... and the high cost or raising a child coupled with technological advancement allows us to enjoy sexual intercourse while forgoing conception and the rearing of a child.


So your question was essentially why anyone would want to have children given the fact that it is not a biological imperative?  I think that's a question for a different thread.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: posnerd on May 27, 2006, 01:03:21 PM
Why do some homosexuals, who by definition do not wish to engage in heterosexual sex, desire to have children, whom are typically created by said action?



Well, i won't presume to hijack the role of resident expert here; instead, I will pose a counter-question: why do so many heterosexuals have sex, which biologically is for the purpose of making children, when they don't want children?

I think many people would answer that their is an innate drive to procreate... sex is pleasurable... and the high cost or raising a child coupled with technological advancement allows us to enjoy sexual intercourse while forgoing conception and the rearing of a child.


So your question was essentially why anyone would want to have children given the fact that it is not a biological imperative?  I think that's a question for a different thread.

Is it a fact?  Please cite.

Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 27, 2006, 01:11:53 PM
Why do some homosexuals, who by definition do not wish to engage in heterosexual sex, desire to have children, whom are typically created by said action?



Well, i won't presume to hijack the role of resident expert here; instead, I will pose a counter-question: why do so many heterosexuals have sex, which biologically is for the purpose of making children, when they don't want children?

I think many people would answer that their is an innate drive to procreate... sex is pleasurable... and the high cost or raising a child coupled with technological advancement allows us to enjoy sexual intercourse while forgoing conception and the rearing of a child.


So your question was essentially why anyone would want to have children given the fact that it is not a biological imperative?  I think that's a question for a different thread.

Is it a fact?  Please cite.

Can't tell if this is a lame attempt at trolling or if you are sincere and confused.  I meant that the question you asked should not be limited to homosexuals since we live in an era when even heterosexual intercourse is not necessarily procreative -- everyone can have whatever form of sex they want without reproducing.  And a number of people have children without having reproductive sex. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: posnerd on May 27, 2006, 01:17:39 PM
Why do some homosexuals, who by definition do not wish to engage in heterosexual sex, desire to have children, whom are typically created by said action?

Well, i won't presume to hijack the role of resident expert here; instead, I will pose a counter-question: why do so many heterosexuals have sex, which biologically is for the purpose of making children, when they don't want children?

Yes, why do you want to eat* souffles that you don't care to learn to cook?  Why do you want to drive* cars that you haven't yourself learned to manufacture, or even fix?  Why do you want to take advantage* of medical advances that you haven't yourself even investigated?  etc.

No offense, but this just seems like nonsense to me.  Is it really the fact that heterosexuals are able to produce children through their sexual intercourse what legitimates their family choices?  What about people with fertility and health problems?  What about people who adopt for religious and moral purposes? 

*not that I am advocating eating, driving, or taking advantage of children.

I never stated that the capability to produce children legitamized family choices.  However, you fail to consider that both groups, those that are infertile and religious, could possess a desire to procreate.  You seem to be sidestepping the question.  I never addressed adoption rights.

As for your opening analogies, it seems nonsensical that one would equate the creation of a child, the union of your genes and another's to create a new and unique form of life, to the creation of a consumable good such as a souffle or an automobile.
 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: posnerd on May 27, 2006, 01:20:30 PM
Why do some homosexuals, who by definition do not wish to engage in heterosexual sex, desire to have children, whom are typically created by said action?



Well, i won't presume to hijack the role of resident expert here; instead, I will pose a counter-question: why do so many heterosexuals have sex, which biologically is for the purpose of making children, when they don't want children?

I think many people would answer that their is an innate drive to procreate... sex is pleasurable... and the high cost or raising a child coupled with technological advancement allows us to enjoy sexual intercourse while forgoing conception and the rearing of a child.


So your question was essentially why anyone would want to have children given the fact that it is not a biological imperative?  I think that's a question for a different thread.

Is it a fact?  Please cite.

Can't tell if this is a lame attempt at trolling or if you are sincere and confused.  I meant that the question you asked should not be limited to homosexuals since we live in an era when even heterosexual intercourse is not necessarily procreative -- everyone can have whatever form of sex they want without reproducing.  And a number of people have children without having reproductive sex. 

You misread my statement.  I would argue that there IS a biological imperative to procreate.  The fact that the result of heterosexual intercourse does not lead to conception and that individuals can possess children without engaging in reproductive sex does not diminish that claim.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 27, 2006, 01:27:26 PM
Why do some homosexuals, who by definition do not wish to engage in heterosexual sex, desire to have children, whom are typically created by said action?

Well, i won't presume to hijack the role of resident expert here; instead, I will pose a counter-question: why do so many heterosexuals have sex, which biologically is for the purpose of making children, when they don't want children?

Yes, why do you want to eat* souffles that you don't care to learn to cook?  Why do you want to drive* cars that you haven't yourself learned to manufacture, or even fix?  Why do you want to take advantage* of medical advances that you haven't yourself even investigated?  etc.

No offense, but this just seems like nonsense to me.  Is it really the fact that heterosexuals are able to produce children through their sexual intercourse what legitimates their family choices?  What about people with fertility and health problems?  What about people who adopt for religious and moral purposes? 

*not that I am advocating eating, driving, or taking advantage of children.

I never stated that the capability to produce children legitamized family choices.  However, you fail to consider that both groups, those that are infertile and religious, could possess a desire to procreate.  You seem to be sidestepping the question.  I never addressed adoption rights.

As for your opening analogies, it seems nonsensical that one would equate the creation of a child, the union of your genes and another's to create a new and unique form of life, to the creation of a consumable good such as a souffle or an automobile.
 

Okay, fine.  Here's the thing: I do not think that most people who have children or who want to have children want to do so because they desire heterosexual vaginal intercourse.  I think a number of them may want to have heterosexual vaginal intercourse, and some of them may not.  And just as you say that people who have fertility problems and have children via adoption or artificial insemination, or people who choose to adopt for other reasons, possess a desire to procreate, I imagine a number of homosexuals possess a desire to procreate.  I don't believe this desire is tied to the sex act, and I think it is rather crude for you to suggest otherwise.  

You suggest that my (half-joking) analogies demean children.  I think rather that your reducing the desire to rear children to heterosexual lust demeans childbearing and parenting.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 27, 2006, 01:34:02 PM
Why do some homosexuals, who by definition do not wish to engage in heterosexual sex, desire to have children, whom are typically created by said action?



Well, i won't presume to hijack the role of resident expert here; instead, I will pose a counter-question: why do so many heterosexuals have sex, which biologically is for the purpose of making children, when they don't want children?

I think many people would answer that their is an innate drive to procreate... sex is pleasurable... and the high cost or raising a child coupled with technological advancement allows us to enjoy sexual intercourse while forgoing conception and the rearing of a child.


So your question was essentially why anyone would want to have children given the fact that it is not a biological imperative?  I think that's a question for a different thread.

Is it a fact?  Please cite.

Can't tell if this is a lame attempt at trolling or if you are sincere and confused.  I meant that the question you asked should not be limited to homosexuals since we live in an era when even heterosexual intercourse is not necessarily procreative -- everyone can have whatever form of sex they want without reproducing.  And a number of people have children without having reproductive sex. 

You misread my statement.  I would argue that there IS a biological imperative to procreate.  The fact that the result of heterosexual intercourse does not lead to conception and that individuals can possess children without engaging in reproductive sex does not diminish that claim.


I didn't misread anything.  You said that some people would argue that there is a biological imperative, and then seemed to refute (or at least muddle) it by suggesting that contraception permits people to satisfy heterosexual lust without having children.  I don't believe that there is a biological imperative to procreate -- at least not on an individual level -- but because I am not interested in arguing that point, here:

If some people do, indeed, experience this "biological imperative" in terms of heterosexual lust, as you suggest, others may want to have children for other reasons, from love for children to pleasing their parents to thinking that it is the right thing to do for the planet to populating their church pews to an infinite number of other things.  Heterosexual lust is not a necessary element of the desire to have children or a family.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 27, 2006, 01:51:14 PM
Do male homosexuals prefer male children to female children when adopting?

Is it the opposite for lesbians?

As a gay man, I would take either, but I would probably prefer female children. If I had a son I would need to find a good hetero male role model he could hang out with, because if he develops typical straight male interests (sports, cars, fixing things) I would be completely clueless... but I would always be available to discuss ballet and Madonna's career trajectory.
I have straight friend who says that if she were to have a kid, she'd want a gay son so that could go shopping together.

Anyway, I hate to disappoint you Odaiko, but I have a little girl who (until recently) acted like a geeky boy (comic books, video games). If it weren't for my boyfriend, I would have had no idea how to entertain her.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 27, 2006, 01:55:33 PM
Do male homosexuals prefer male children to female children when adopting?

Is it the opposite for lesbians?

I had never heard this.  I know gay men with boys (only one family) and lots of lesbians with both boys and girls.  I think, given the fact that it is very common for women (single mothers, for instance) to be primary caregivers to both male and female children, women might have less of the anxiety Odaiko describes about having children of one sex or the other.  And Odaiko, I don't think you should worry too much.  Plenty of women who are helpless in sports and such have reared perfectly butchity little boys. You would do just fine. 
The lesbians I have known who have had children have had female children. Of course those were biological children, and this is anectdotal, FWIW.
I also agree with the bolded part of Miss P's statement. That is because I have good reason to believe that one's personality largely determined at birth (I know this is a controversial point of view, but if you knew my daughters you would understand why I feel that way).
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 27, 2006, 02:01:05 PM
Unless there's something to indicate she really believed in their stance on gay issues (as opposed to supporting them in spite of their stance and because she agreed on other issues), I think she can still redeem herself.

Both Mary Cheney and D!ck Cheney are opposed to the Constitutional amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman (which George W. Bush supports.) That is to both their credit(s).

Other than that... I think Mary Cheney should be ashamed of herself for supporting the Bush ticket through two elections. Whether she can "redeem herself" is unlikely. If she'd like to try, I'm sure the USA will be watching, though I won't.
It is tough not to support a relative.
My brother is a politician, and a JERK.  I still wanted him to win, because he's my brother.
Of course my brother wasn't running for Vice President (he plans to run for president one day, if things go according to his master plan). If my brother were running for a high-ranking office I admit I might not vote for him.  In any case, I would not work on his presidential campaign unless he changed a lot of his platform. Wow, I'm rambling today :-[
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 27, 2006, 02:03:42 PM
Why do some homosexuals, who by definition do not wish to engage in heterosexual sex, desire to have children, whom are typically created by said action?

Well, i won't presume to hijack the role of resident expert here; instead, I will pose a counter-question: why do so many heterosexuals have sex, which biologically is for the purpose of making children, when they don't want children?

Yes, why do you want to eat* souffles that you don't care to learn to cook?  Why do you want to drive* cars that you haven't yourself learned to manufacture, or even fix?  Why do you want to take advantage* of medical advances that you haven't yourself even investigated?  etc.

No offense, but this just seems like nonsense to me.  Is it really the fact that heterosexuals are able to produce children through their sexual intercourse what legitimates their family choices?  What about people with fertility and health problems?  What about people who adopt for religious and moral purposes? 

*not that I am advocating eating, driving, or taking advantage of children.

I never stated that the capability to produce children legitamized family choices.  However, you fail to consider that both groups, those that are infertile and religious, could possess a desire to procreate.  You seem to be sidestepping the question.  I never addressed adoption rights.

As for your opening analogies, it seems nonsensical that one would equate the creation of a child, the union of your genes and another's to create a new and unique form of life, to the creation of a consumable good such as a souffle or an automobile.
 
That's true, a souffle or an automobile can be made to one's specifications. They nearly always turn out the way you wanted.  And few can claim that a souffle or an automobile broke their hearts.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 27, 2006, 02:04:56 PM
That's true, a souffle or an automobile can be made to one's specifications. They nearly always turn out the way you wanted.  And few can claim that a souffle or an automobile broke their hearts.

Clearly spoken by someone who has not made a souffle lately!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 27, 2006, 02:08:10 PM
That's true, a souffle or an automobile can be made to one's specifications. They nearly always turn out the way you wanted.  And few can claim that a souffle or an automobile broke their hearts.

Clearly spoken by someone who has not made a souffle lately!
Truthfully I've never had a souffle in my life  :-[ However, I was referring to the fact that a person can order a souffle.
I wish I could return my daughters until they came out just how I wanted 'em.  :D
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 27, 2006, 02:10:14 PM
Truthfully I've never had a souffle in my life  :-[ However, I was referring to the fact that a person can order a souffle.
I wish I could return my daughters until they came out just how I wanted 'em.  :D

With you as their mom, they'll turn out great, db, I promise.  How old are they?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: posnerd on May 27, 2006, 02:13:08 PM
"Heterosexual lust is not a necessary element of the desire to have children or a family."

Here is where we disagree.  Which leads me to...

Another question(s):

Is homosexuality a genetic trait, an environmental trait, or both?

If it is genetic, then why do twin studies reveal that many homosexual twins do not share the same sexual orientation with their idential twin counterpart?

If it is environmental, what environmental influences could cause one to be homosexual?
 



Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 27, 2006, 02:23:28 PM
Truthfully I've never had a souffle in my life  :-[ However, I was referring to the fact that a person can order a souffle.
I wish I could return my daughters until they came out just how I wanted 'em.  :D

With you as their mom, they'll turn out great, db, I promise.  How old are they?
Awww that's sweet Miss P.
Let's just say they aren't THIS little anymore.

EDIT: Pics removed to prevent blue from flirting with them.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 27, 2006, 02:25:06 PM
dbgirl, they're gorgeous! 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 27, 2006, 02:25:43 PM
"Heterosexual lust is not a necessary element of the desire to have children or a family."

Here is where we disagree.

How?  You really think that most people want to have children because they like having heterosexual vaginal intercourse?  It's absurd.

I'm not particularly interested in these other topics, but you may want to look back at the beginning of the thread for other people's responses to related questions.  I'll just answer that I think that homosexuality has the same origins as heterosexuality, whether they are environmental or genetic.  And I don't particularly care which.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 27, 2006, 02:25:50 PM
dbgirl, they're gorgeous! 
Thank you. I think so too.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 27, 2006, 02:27:21 PM
Do male homosexuals prefer male children to female children when adopting?

Is it the opposite for lesbians?

I had never heard this.  I know gay men with boys (only one family) and lots of lesbians with both boys and girls.  I think, given the fact that it is very common for women (single mothers, for instance) to be primary caregivers to both male and female children, women might have less of the anxiety Odaiko describes about having children of one sex or the other.  And Odaiko, I don't think you should worry too much.  Plenty of women who are helpless in sports and such have reared perfectly butchity little boys. You would do just fine. 
The lesbians I have known who have had children have had female children. Of course those were biological children, and this is anectdotal, FWIW.
I also agree with the bolded part of Miss P's statement. That is because I have good reason to believe that one's personality largely determined at birth (I know this is a controversial point of view, but if you knew my daughters you would understand why I feel that way).

wait, you have kids?!?!?!

ive flirted with you, and you have kids?!?!?!?!?!

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooo
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 27, 2006, 02:29:00 PM
Do male homosexuals prefer male children to female children when adopting?

Is it the opposite for lesbians?

I had never heard this.  I know gay men with boys (only one family) and lots of lesbians with both boys and girls.  I think, given the fact that it is very common for women (single mothers, for instance) to be primary caregivers to both male and female children, women might have less of the anxiety Odaiko describes about having children of one sex or the other.  And Odaiko, I don't think you should worry too much.  Plenty of women who are helpless in sports and such have reared perfectly butchity little boys. You would do just fine. 
The lesbians I have known who have had children have had female children. Of course those were biological children, and this is anectdotal, FWIW.
I also agree with the bolded part of Miss P's statement. That is because I have good reason to believe that one's personality largely determined at birth (I know this is a controversial point of view, but if you knew my daughters you would understand why I feel that way).

wait, you have kids?!?!?!

ive flirted with you, and you have kids?!?!?!?!?!

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooo
Yes. And amazingly I have a man too!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 27, 2006, 02:30:16 PM
Do male homosexuals prefer male children to female children when adopting?

Is it the opposite for lesbians?

I had never heard this.  I know gay men with boys (only one family) and lots of lesbians with both boys and girls.  I think, given the fact that it is very common for women (single mothers, for instance) to be primary caregivers to both male and female children, women might have less of the anxiety Odaiko describes about having children of one sex or the other.  And Odaiko, I don't think you should worry too much.  Plenty of women who are helpless in sports and such have reared perfectly butchity little boys. You would do just fine. 
The lesbians I have known who have had children have had female children. Of course those were biological children, and this is anectdotal, FWIW.
I also agree with the bolded part of Miss P's statement. That is because I have good reason to believe that one's personality largely determined at birth (I know this is a controversial point of view, but if you knew my daughters you would understand why I feel that way).

wait, you have kids?!?!?!

ive flirted with you, and you have kids?!?!?!?!?!

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooo
Perhaps you intended to flirt with my little girls instead?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 27, 2006, 02:30:50 PM
Do male homosexuals prefer male children to female children when adopting?

Is it the opposite for lesbians?

I had never heard this.  I know gay men with boys (only one family) and lots of lesbians with both boys and girls.  I think, given the fact that it is very common for women (single mothers, for instance) to be primary caregivers to both male and female children, women might have less of the anxiety Odaiko describes about having children of one sex or the other.  And Odaiko, I don't think you should worry too much.  Plenty of women who are helpless in sports and such have reared perfectly butchity little boys. You would do just fine. 
The lesbians I have known who have had children have had female children. Of course those were biological children, and this is anectdotal, FWIW.
I also agree with the bolded part of Miss P's statement. That is because I have good reason to believe that one's personality largely determined at birth (I know this is a controversial point of view, but if you knew my daughters you would understand why I feel that way).

wait, you have kids?!?!?!

ive flirted with you, and you have kids?!?!?!?!?!

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooo
Yes. And amazingly I have a man too!


but i can work around that, but kids?!?!?!?!?!

sigh, im sorry sugar, but its just not meant to be.

i know ive gotten your hopes up, but im just not daddy material.

unless shes 25 and dressed in a catholic school girl outfit, THOSE girls cac call me daddy!!!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 27, 2006, 02:33:52 PM
Do male homosexuals prefer male children to female children when adopting?

Is it the opposite for lesbians?

I had never heard this.  I know gay men with boys (only one family) and lots of lesbians with both boys and girls.  I think, given the fact that it is very common for women (single mothers, for instance) to be primary caregivers to both male and female children, women might have less of the anxiety Odaiko describes about having children of one sex or the other.  And Odaiko, I don't think you should worry too much.  Plenty of women who are helpless in sports and such have reared perfectly butchity little boys. You would do just fine. 
The lesbians I have known who have had children have had female children. Of course those were biological children, and this is anectdotal, FWIW.
I also agree with the bolded part of Miss P's statement. That is because I have good reason to believe that one's personality largely determined at birth (I know this is a controversial point of view, but if you knew my daughters you would understand why I feel that way).

wait, you have kids?!?!?!

ive flirted with you, and you have kids?!?!?!?!?!

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooo
Yes. And amazingly I have a man too!


but i can work around that, but kids?!?!?!?!?!

sigh, im sorry sugar, but its just not meant to be.

i know ive gotten your hopes up, but im just not daddy material.

unless shes 25 and dressed in a catholic school girl outfit, THOSE girls cac call me daddy!!!
And to think. This morning I broke up with my boyfriend for you.  :'(
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 27, 2006, 02:37:51 PM
sigh, if only i had known, i would have toned down my sexiness!!!

another girl, ruined.

sigh....
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 27, 2006, 02:41:26 PM
sigh, if only i had known, i would have toned down my sexiness!!!

another girl, ruined.


sigh....
Ruined? Wow, I used to think you were nice.
Well I've never had any problems finding boyfriends. I'll do fine without you blue.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 27, 2006, 02:46:33 PM
sigh, if only i had known, i would have toned down my sexiness!!!

another girl, ruined.


sigh....
Ruined? Wow, I used to think you were nice.
Well I've never had any problems finding boyfriends. I'll do fine without you blue.


thats the spirit, you brave girl!!!


and btw, yes, there cute now, but, wait til their 16

and the boys start calling.

boys like me

bwuahahahahahahahahahahaha
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: posnerd on May 27, 2006, 04:58:01 PM
"Heterosexual lust is not a necessary element of the desire to have children or a family."

Here is where we disagree.

How?  You really think that most people want to have children because they like having heterosexual vaginal intercourse?  It's absurd.

I'm not particularly interested in these other topics, but you may want to look back at the beginning of the thread for other people's responses to related questions.  I'll just answer that I think that homosexuality has the same origins as heterosexuality, whether they are environmental or genetic.  And I don't particularly care which.

All I've been saying is there is an innate drive to participate in sexual intercouse... to procreate.  You can call it heterosexual lust... or whatever term you want.
Of course, there are other reasons to participate in sex... societal pressure, entertainment, etc. 

Do birds and bees contemplate their future offspring before they get it on?   

Anyways, it would follow that it appears that homosexuals simply lack this trait or it is suppressed.

Anyone else in the thread is free to answer my question on genetics vs. environment.  I'm interested in people's responses.





Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 27, 2006, 05:08:52 PM
"Heterosexual lust is not a necessary element of the desire to have children or a family."

Here is where we disagree.

How?  You really think that most people want to have children because they like having heterosexual vaginal intercourse?  It's absurd.

I'm not particularly interested in these other topics, but you may want to look back at the beginning of the thread for other people's responses to related questions.  I'll just answer that I think that homosexuality has the same origins as heterosexuality, whether they are environmental or genetic.  And I don't particularly care which.

All I've been saying is there is an innate drive to participate in sexual intercouse... to procreate.  You can call it heterosexual lust... or whatever term you want.
Of course, there are other reasons to participate in sex... societal pressure, entertainment, etc. 

Do birds and bees contemplate their future offspring before they get it on?   

Anyways, it would follow that it appears that homosexuals simply lack this trait or it is suppressed.

Anyone else in the thread is free to answer my question on genetics vs. environment.  I'm interested in people's responses.


Now you're missing my point.  Even if I accept your rather primitive formulation that people are inspired to have heterosexal vaginal intercourse so they can perpetuate the species and vice versa, don't you believe that there might be other reasons people might want to have children?  For instance, what if I want to have children because I enjoy being around children?  How is that an insufficient motivation?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 27, 2006, 06:16:03 PM
"Heterosexual lust is not a necessary element of the desire to have children or a family."

Here is where we disagree.

How?  You really think that most people want to have children because they like having heterosexual vaginal intercourse?  It's absurd.

I'm not particularly interested in these other topics, but you may want to look back at the beginning of the thread for other people's responses to related questions.  I'll just answer that I think that homosexuality has the same origins as heterosexuality, whether they are environmental or genetic.  And I don't particularly care which.

All I've been saying is there is an innate drive to participate in sexual intercouse... to procreate.  You can call it heterosexual lust... or whatever term you want.
Of course, there are other reasons to participate in sex... societal pressure, entertainment, etc. 

Do birds and bees contemplate their future offspring before they get it on?   

Anyways, it would follow that it appears that homosexuals simply lack this trait or it is suppressed.

Anyone else in the thread is free to answer my question on genetics vs. environment.  I'm interested in people's responses.


Now you're missing my point.  Even if I accept your rather primitive formulation that people are inspired to have heterosexal vaginal intercourse so they can perpetuate the species and vice versa, don't you believe that there might be other reasons people might want to have children?  For instance, what if I want to have children because I enjoy being around children?  How is that an insufficient motivation?

thats just crazy talk.  your crazy!!!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 27, 2006, 06:17:15 PM
Even if I accept your rather primitive formulation that people are inspired to have heterosexal vaginal intercourse so they can perpetuate the species and vice versa, don't you believe that there might be other reasons people might want to have children?  For instance, what if I want to have children because I enjoy being around children?  How is that an insufficient motivation?

thats just crazy talk.  your crazy!!!

Don't worry, blueb.  It was all in the conditional.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: posnerd on May 27, 2006, 06:25:20 PM
"Heterosexual lust is not a necessary element of the desire to have children or a family."

Here is where we disagree.

How?  You really think that most people want to have children because they like having heterosexual vaginal intercourse?  It's absurd.

I'm not particularly interested in these other topics, but you may want to look back at the beginning of the thread for other people's responses to related questions.  I'll just answer that I think that homosexuality has the same origins as heterosexuality, whether they are environmental or genetic.  And I don't particularly care which.

All I've been saying is there is an innate drive to participate in sexual intercouse... to procreate.  You can call it heterosexual lust... or whatever term you want.
Of course, there are other reasons to participate in sex... societal pressure, entertainment, etc. 

Do birds and bees contemplate their future offspring before they get it on?   

Anyways, it would follow that it appears that homosexuals simply lack this trait or it is suppressed.

Anyone else in the thread is free to answer my question on genetics vs. environment.  I'm interested in people's responses.


Now you're missing my point.  Even if I accept your rather primitive formulation that people are inspired to have heterosexal vaginal intercourse so they can perpetuate the species and vice versa, don't you believe that there might be other reasons people might want to have children?  For instance, what if I want to have children because I enjoy being around children?  How is that an insufficient motivation?

Now, you're getting to the heart of the question.  From where comes this motivation?  Is it natural to want to have children... do women enjoy being around children because they are naturally mothers and must carry the developing child?  Or is it more influenced by societal pressure...?  

I really don't think desiring children can be equated to just taste... like some people want chocolate and some want vanilla.

Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 27, 2006, 10:49:18 PM
Now, you're getting to the heart of the question.  From where comes this motivation?  Is it natural to want to have children... do women enjoy being around children because they are naturally mothers and must carry the developing child?  Or is it more influenced by societal pressure...?  

I really don't think desiring children can be equated to just taste... like some people want chocolate and some want vanilla.

I don't know what will satisfy you if loving and wanting to spend time with kids in itself is not enough.  Are you looking for a biological origin?  I probably can't help you with that.  But I can think of a number of explicitly non-biological reasons people might want to have children (some of which I mentioned before): to please their parents, spouses, or partners; to receive public benefits; to gain acceptance in their community; to vicariously live out their bygone dreams; to populate their religions or armies; to find a bone-marrow match for their sick loved ones; to work the family farm.  Some of these reasons may be less legitimate than others, but they all seem like sufficient motives to bear and/or rear children absent heterosexual desire.

I am also interested in the answers to archival's questions.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 27, 2006, 10:51:41 PM
Now, you're getting to the heart of the question.  From where comes this motivation?  Is it natural to want to have children... do women enjoy being around children because they are naturally mothers and must carry the developing child?  Or is it more influenced by societal pressure...? 

I really don't think desiring children can be equated to just taste... like some people want chocolate and some want vanilla.

I don't know what will satisfy you if loving and wanting to spend time with kids in itself is not enough.  Are you looking for a biological origin?  I probably can't help you with that.  But I can think of a number of explicitly non-biological reasons people might want to have children (some of which I mentioned before): to please their parents, spouses, or partners; to receive public benefits; to gain acceptance in their community; to vicariously live out their bygone dreams; to populate their religions or armies; to find a bone-marrow match for their sick loved ones; to work the family farm.  Some of these reasons may be less legitimate than others, but they all seem like sufficient motives to bear and/or rear children absent heterosexual desire.

I am also interested in the answers to archival's questions.

to start their own cult

the Cult Of Blue.

open to impressinable babes off all ethncities

must be able to chant.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 27, 2006, 10:52:47 PM
Now, you're getting to the heart of the question.  From where comes this motivation?  Is it natural to want to have children... do women enjoy being around children because they are naturally mothers and must carry the developing child?  Or is it more influenced by societal pressure...? 

I really don't think desiring children can be equated to just taste... like some people want chocolate and some want vanilla.

I don't know what will satisfy you if loving and wanting to spend time with kids in itself is not enough.  Are you looking for a biological origin?  I probably can't help you with that.  But I can think of a number of explicitly non-biological reasons people might want to have children (some of which I mentioned before): to please their parents, spouses, or partners; to receive public benefits; to gain acceptance in their community; to vicariously live out their bygone dreams; to populate their religions or armies; to find a bone-marrow match for their sick loved ones; to work the family farm.  Some of these reasons may be less legitimate than others, but they all seem like sufficient motives to bear and/or rear children absent heterosexual desire.

I am also interested in the answers to archival's questions.

to start their own cult

the Cult Of Blue.

open to impressinable babes off all ethncities

must be able to chant.

Exactly!  Like I said, to populate their religions or armies...
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 27, 2006, 10:56:24 PM
Now, you're getting to the heart of the question.  From where comes this motivation?  Is it natural to want to have children... do women enjoy being around children because they are naturally mothers and must carry the developing child?  Or is it more influenced by societal pressure...? 

I really don't think desiring children can be equated to just taste... like some people want chocolate and some want vanilla.

I don't know what will satisfy you if loving and wanting to spend time with kids in itself is not enough.  Are you looking for a biological origin?  I probably can't help you with that.  But I can think of a number of explicitly non-biological reasons people might want to have children (some of which I mentioned before): to please their parents, spouses, or partners; to receive public benefits; to gain acceptance in their community; to vicariously live out their bygone dreams; to populate their religions or armies; to find a bone-marrow match for their sick loved ones; to work the family farm.  Some of these reasons may be less legitimate than others, but they all seem like sufficient motives to bear and/or rear children absent heterosexual desire.

I am also interested in the answers to archival's questions.

to start their own cult

the Cult Of Blue.

open to impressinable babes off all ethncities

must be able to chant.

Exactly!  Like I said, to populate their religions or armies...

yep, and there is no country on earth that wouldnt love to be invaded by the Blue army.

my babe brigades run out and, ummm, cause the enemies to prematurely fire.

again and again and again....

;D
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 27, 2006, 11:19:18 PM
All I've been saying is there is an innate drive to participate in sexual intercouse... to procreate.  You can call it heterosexual lust... or whatever term you want.
Of course, there are other reasons to participate in sex... societal pressure, entertainment, etc. 

Do birds and bees contemplate their future offspring before they get it on?   

Anyways, it would follow that it appears that homosexuals simply lack this trait or it is suppressed.

Anyone else in the thread is free to answer my question on genetics vs. environment.  I'm interested in people's responses.

comparisons with birds and bees?  come now... care to try again? 

this discussion has already been had... look back in the thread.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 28, 2006, 12:23:15 AM
Dear Homosexuals:
I have been watching Trollik and Googler follow each other around and praise each other for weeks now.
Do they have a gay crush on each other?

Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 28, 2006, 01:15:27 AM
Dear Homosexuals:
I have been watching Trollik and Googler follow each other around and praise each other for weeks now.
Do they have a gay crush on each other?

An astute observation -- and I would expect nothing less from you, db.

Yes, it's called homosociality.  The boys wish to be together, but this presents a conflict for them.  They therefore project their desire toward a third party (in this case, otherwise sensible threads), forming a triangle relationship.  It is similar to two knights vying for a young lady's affections in a duel.  However comely the lass, she is there to provide an excuse for their engagement; the swordfight itself is the real deal.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 28, 2006, 12:21:16 PM
Of course I'm know you're kidding lady trojan.
But (at the risk of exciting Blue here) I would like to point out that there are at least a couple of very feminine lesbians at my school.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 28, 2006, 12:24:12 PM
Of course I'm know you're kidding lady trojan.
But (at the risk of exciting Blue here) I would like to point out that there are at least a couple of very feminine lesbians at my school.


slobber, slobber, drool, drool

and, ummm, wheres that again???   :-*
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 28, 2006, 11:19:44 PM
Dear Homosexuals:
I have been watching Trollik and Googler follow each other around and praise each other for weeks now.
Do they have a gay crush on each other?



It's called the "I-Don't-Know-How-To-Quit-You" syndrome...
:D
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on May 31, 2006, 07:50:44 AM
so i took the implicit association test for sexuality and got results of a slight preference for straight people.  this kind of surprised me.  while in specific interactions with people (as long as they aren't of a sexual nature), it really doesn't matter to me at all, in general, i feel like i'm more comfortable around gay people.  perhaps this could be due to growing up with acute homophobia?  or maybe the test just isn't that great of a measurement. what did everyone else get?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: aerynn on May 31, 2006, 07:57:14 AM
I got no preference either way.

And I am straight, if it puts the test in context.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 31, 2006, 09:54:08 AM
for the thesbians, when your monthly freind comes, and you two are synched, are you sympathetic, or do you take out your pain/frustrations by hunting down and killing some man ?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 31, 2006, 10:01:54 AM
for the thesbians, when your monthly freind comes, and you two are synched, are you sympathetic, or do you take out your pain/frustrations by hunting down and killing some man ?

I have never once killed a man!

<Redacted>
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 31, 2006, 10:08:53 AM
i was soooooooooo tempted to quote!!

i thought women that live to gether synch up?

and man, thats got to suck if your both taking turns being b1tchee!!!

and wait, isnt that like 10 days - 2 weeks of grumpiness?

double ugh!!!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on May 31, 2006, 10:14:49 AM
i was soooooooooo tempted to quote!!

i thought women that live to gether synch up?

and man, thats got to suck if your both taking turns being b1tchee!!!

and wait, isnt that like 10 days - 2 weeks of grumpiness?

double ugh!!!

We're close but not quite there.  There are too  many other women in our lives, I think.  And we don't live together.

And I would call it closer to 4-5 days of moodiness, that's all.

thats not too bad....
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 31, 2006, 10:57:44 PM
Are gays agist?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 31, 2006, 11:06:31 PM
Dear homosexuals:

How can I turn my daughters into lesbians?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 31, 2006, 11:43:17 PM
Dear homosexuals:

How can I turn my daughters into lesbians?


I am not prepared to share the full five-point plan, but here are two starters:

1. Make them watch wedding shows to develop intuitive disdain for heterosexual praxis;

2. Beyonce poster above bed
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on May 31, 2006, 11:45:44 PM
Dear homosexuals:

How can I turn my daughters into lesbians?


I am not prepared to share the full five-point plan, but here are two starters:

1. Make them watch wedding shows to develop intuitive disdain for heterosexual praxis;

2. Beyonce poster above bed
:D Wedding shows!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on May 31, 2006, 11:49:47 PM
1. Make them watch wedding shows to develop intuitive disdain for heterosexual praxis;
[/b]
:D Wedding shows!


I really don't know how my generation rounded up so many lesbians without this recruiting tool, which we expect to be very effective on generation ZZ.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on June 01, 2006, 12:30:49 AM
It looks like DCComics has a lesbian superhero now:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2006/05/31/entertainment/e135636D84.DTL
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on June 01, 2006, 12:54:25 AM
It looks like DCComics has a lesbian superhero now:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2006/05/31/entertainment/e135636D84.DTL


Oooh!  Someone has to tell Su!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on June 01, 2006, 07:55:45 AM
Nice!

The sad part is even though I can now actually afford enough Heineken to get me smashed, I still prefer and search out PBR on draft.

I’m white trash, what can I say. I can’t cook, I can’t decorate, I’m a registered republican, I despise Madonna, I dance like I’m having an epileptic seizer, I’ve never watched a whole episode of American Idol, I don’t even know what station it comes on, getting dressed up means finding the stuff in the dryer with the least wrinkles, a gourmet meal to me is wood fired pizza and wine from a box in the fridge. My interests are sports, hunting, fishing and cold beer in large quantities. I’m just a big lesbian trapped inside a gay man’s body.

 :D :D :D

regarding age, i wouldn't say i'm that ageist, but i do try to stick within a reasonable age frame because it seems to ensure that i have more in common with a guy.  however, i get very disturbed by the number of guys in their 40s+ who go after guys in their 20s.  now, i realize this happens in the crazy hetero world too at times, but this seems to be FAR more prominent in the gay world from what i've seen.  clearly, it's not just young gay guys demonizing the older ones.  it's also older guys fetishizing the youth.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on June 01, 2006, 07:57:09 AM
seems like guys are guys, no matter what thier orientation....
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on June 01, 2006, 10:08:17 AM
Nice!

The sad part is even though I can now actually afford enough Heineken to get me smashed, I still prefer and search out PBR on draft.

I’m white trash, what can I say. I can’t cook, I can’t decorate, I’m a registered republican, I despise Madonna, I dance like I’m having an epileptic seizer, I’ve never watched a whole episode of American Idol, I don’t even know what station it comes on, getting dressed up means finding the stuff in the dryer with the least wrinkles, a gourmet meal to me is wood fired pizza and wine from a box in the fridge. My interests are sports, hunting, fishing and cold beer in large quantities. I’m just a big lesbian trapped inside a gay man’s body.

 :D :D :D

regarding age, i wouldn't say i'm that ageist, but i do try to stick within a reasonable age frame because it seems to ensure that i have more in common with a guy.  however, i get very disturbed by the number of guys in their 40s+ who go after guys in their 20s.  now, i realize this happens in the crazy hetero world too at times, but this seems to be FAR more prominent in the gay world from what i've seen. clearly, it's not just young gay guys demonizing the older ones.  it's also older guys fetishizing the youth.

Umm, it happens a LOT in the "crazy hetero world." 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on June 01, 2006, 10:16:00 AM
I’m white trash, what can I say. I can’t cook, I can’t decorate, I’m a registered republican, I despise Madonna, I dance like I’m having an epileptic seizer, I’ve never watched a whole episode of American Idol, I don’t even know what station it comes on, getting dressed up means finding the stuff in the dryer with the least wrinkles, a gourmet meal to me is wood fired pizza and wine from a box in the fridge. My interests are sports, hunting, fishing and cold beer in large quantities.

All right, but one personal pet peeve of mine: knowing how to cook is not gay.

I've never understood people who say, "I can't cook." It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that, as humans, we have to eat three times a day (more or less), and yet people never learn how to cook food. WTF? Take a class !


Yea, and I don't get what people mean when they say they cant cook. Does this mean you can't follow a recipe? Being able to cook doesn't necc mean being able to whip up Thanksgiving dinner with no help like Grandma does it, it just means knowing something about food and being able to build and acquire knowledge. Cooking is a skill, just like anything else it gets better with practice.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: trogdor on June 01, 2006, 10:26:12 AM
Umm, it happens a LOT in the "crazy hetero world." 

i'm not saying it doesn't happen, however i would be willing to bet that the rate is much higher among homosexuals.  there are a lot of single gay guys in their 40s+ who came to self-realization much later than most people do now due to different life circumstances.  straight people don't have to deal with this, and the incidence of single males in their 40s is far less.  look at statistics ("about 90 percent of baby-boomer men and women either have married or will marry").  marriage claims most of them far earlier than 40.  i can (and do) go into nearly any given straight bar in dc and see that the crowd is overwhelmingly young.  going into gay bars, the discrepancy is far less. 

oh, and "crazy hetero world" is a joke.  i'm not hatin, just inverting the historical association of homosexuals with crazy.   :)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on June 01, 2006, 10:34:24 AM
Umm, it happens a LOT in the "crazy hetero world." 

i'm not saying it doesn't happen, however i would be willing to bet that the rate is much higher among homosexuals.  there are a lot of single gay guys in their 40s+ who came to self-realization much later than most people do now due to different life circumstances.  straight people don't have to deal with this, and the incidence of single males in their 40s is far less.  look at statistics ("about 90 percent of baby-boomer men and women either have married or will marry").  marriage claims most of them far earlier than 40.  i can (and do) go into nearly any given straight bar in dc and see that the crowd is overwhelmingly young.  going into gay bars, the discrepancy is far less. 

oh, and "crazy hetero world" is a joke.  i'm not hatin, just inverting the historical association of homosexuals with crazy.   :)
Trust me, there are plenty of single 40-something men hitting on young women. Just because they have married doesn't mean that they are still married. Plus, marriage doesn't seem to keep men from hitting on women. Not all straight bars are young. Clubs, perhaps, but not bars.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on June 01, 2006, 10:42:46 AM
Not all straight bars are young. Clubs, perhaps, but not bars.

Yeah and I would second that for gay bars/clubs. Neighborhood bars tend to be a mix of old and young, but hot happening clubs tend to be mostly, if not all, young, particularly the ones that are open past older guys' bedtimes.
I never really liked clubs even when I was in my early 20s. I hate dance music. Perhaps that's why I ended up at the bars where all the older pervs were.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on June 01, 2006, 11:16:30 AM
however, i get very disturbed by the number of guys in their 40s+ who go after guys in their 20s.  now, i realize this happens in the crazy hetero world too at times, but this seems to be FAR more prominent in the gay world from what i've seen.  clearly, it's not just young gay guys demonizing the older ones.  it's also older guys fetishizing the youth.

I've seen both sides and you have a point. There are some (I would not say they are the majority) older guys who mercilessly hit on guys in their 20's. And they are gross, especially the ones who will not take no for an answer. (Usually, these people would be far more insecure hitting on someone their own age, but they get more aggressive with younger people.)

Unfortunately, those are the older guys who get remembered. But if you look around a bar next time you go, most of the 40+ people in there are not trying to prey on younger guys, they are talking to each other.

There are also a large number of younger males who seek out older and finically secure gay males. If you see a very good looking 21 y.o. gay kid driving a Porsche, the odds are good he is paying for it, but not with his $. :)

Hmmm ... I once had a very goodlooking friend who did "landscaping" and house sitting for an older gay man.  My friend wore tight jeans and liked anal sex.  My friend was straight ... or was he?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on June 01, 2006, 11:33:51 AM
Not all straight bars are young. Clubs, perhaps, but not bars.

Yeah and I would second that for gay bars/clubs. Neighborhood bars tend to be a mix of old and young, but hot happening clubs tend to be mostly, if not all, young, particularly the ones that are open past older guys' bedtimes.
I never really liked clubs even when I was in my early 20s. I hate dance music. Perhaps that's why I ended up at the bars where all the older pervs were.


even LINE dance music???
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on June 01, 2006, 11:39:32 AM
Well I can microwave very well. But other than that, what I cook does not tase as good as I think it looks like it should in the cookbook.

I do know what you mean, but for me Cook's Illustrated cookbooks solve this problem.  Everything is full of butter or baconfat or salt, but it all tastes as good as it looks.

Amen.  The baking books (like Chris Kimball's Dessert Bible) are excellent as well.  Just prepare yourself for a touch of sanctimony with your instructions.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: HK on June 01, 2006, 11:39:42 AM
I have observed the older man/younger guy phenomenon quite a bit in Asia. Many times younger Asians go for older caucasians simply because they only like caucasians but are limited in choice. I think some others actually just prefer a mature guy. Some guys who are in their early 20s would prefer dating someone in their 30s/early 40s because they assume that people that age are more ready to commit to a long term relationship.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: HK on June 01, 2006, 08:32:32 PM


It might also have to do with poverty. I've had a singaporean friend tell me bluntly that white men are the richest men in the world and that's why he likes them. It's no secret that older men have less options and thus can't afford to be as discriminating, and have had more time to build wealth. So older white man = likely to be rich but without very high standards = easier to land.

I think it's a strange thing coming from a Singaporean of all people since in comparison to the United States singapore is much safer, and lacks homelessness. However, the white people who come to Singapore and Hong Kong(the places I have lived) to work are usually making expat dollars. I don't think money is a sufficient explanation because especially in Singapore and in Hong Kong as well I have seen couples where the younger Asian guy comes from a very rich family. I think it's likely that each case has it's own explanation.

I guess another plausible one is that for some people age simply is not a factor. I also think in terms of friendship, age is less of a factor in the gay community than in the straight one. I wouldn't date someone above 30...but my best friend here is 44.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on June 01, 2006, 09:20:31 PM
This is interesting, HK.  It kind of makes sense to me that queers might not be as hung up on "fitting" in age -- at least not for shorter-term relationships that don't involve growing old together or having children or whatnot.  I'm not sure about this.  But my most recent ex was in his* mid-forties when I met him at 28.  And a lot of my gay male friends date older guys, and they aren't houseboys or whatever.

*yes.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on October 15, 2007, 01:39:59 PM
do you prefer to be called  Homosexual or Homerexual?

(http://blogs.kansascity.com/photos/uncategorized/homer_gay_marriage.jpg)  http://blogs.kansascity.com/photos/uncategorized/homer_gay_marriage.jpg
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Ulfrekr on November 06, 2007, 12:51:21 PM
Here's a question: Do you ever kind of miss being in the closet? I don't miss the stress of not being myself, and I definitely appreciate that I no longer have to worry about how people would react if I were to come out. Nevertheless, I've found being openly gay to be disappointingly prosaic on some level. When I was in the closet, I'd often think about how awesome and exciting my life would be once I came out, but really, it hasn't been all that different from the post-college life all my straight friends seem to lead. The reality of being gay, while not bad in any way, has not exactly lived up to my (admittedly inflated) expectations. I sort of miss being able to imagine it would. 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: annarborite on November 18, 2007, 07:49:27 PM
what?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: bakongo on December 03, 2007, 06:13:46 PM
Do you ever kind of miss being in the closet?
Nope, but I can understand how someone else could miss it.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: ->Soon on December 08, 2007, 07:21:57 PM
how can homosexuality be explained in reference to evolution?
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on December 08, 2007, 07:39:10 PM
how can homosexuality be explained in reference to evolution?

 ???
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: BearlyLegal on December 08, 2007, 07:45:51 PM
How do you feel about this new D&G commercial? http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7167770186059821790&q=dolce+and+gabbana+gay+tv+commercial&total=4&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Provocative, but cute!  :)
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on December 08, 2007, 07:49:56 PM
How do you feel about this new D&G commercial? http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7167770186059821790&q=dolce+and+gabbana+gay+tv+commercial&total=4&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Provocative, but cute!  :)

It is kind of cute, I guess!
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: BearlyLegal on December 08, 2007, 07:51:38 PM
How do you feel about this new D&G commercial? http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7167770186059821790&q=dolce+and+gabbana+gay+tv+commercial&total=4&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Provocative, but cute!  :)

It is kind of cute, I guess!
The girl is really cute!  :D

Also, I was kind of shocked by the surprise ending.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: Miss P on December 08, 2007, 08:22:16 PM
Also, I was kind of shocked by the surprise ending.

(Er, spoiler alert.)

I think I had predicted it because I noticed that the other kissing couples earlier in the ad looked like homosexual pairs (I'm not sure if they are), but at least that made me watch (I normally look back down at my book or computer when a watch/diamond/car commercial comes on). 
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: BearlyLegal on December 08, 2007, 08:46:39 PM
How do you feel about this new D&G commercial? http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7167770186059821790&q=dolce+and+gabbana+gay+tv+commercial&total=4&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Provocative, but cute!  :)

i'm not sure what part of this is provocative.  ???
Same-sex smooching in the middle of an episode of Heroes on Monday night primetime TV would not have been ok a decade ago.

This was a tastefully done commercial. I am a big fan.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: no634 on July 01, 2008, 12:42:02 AM
How do you feel about this new D&G commercial? http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7167770186059821790&q=dolce+and+gabbana+gay+tv+commercial&total=4&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Provocative, but cute!  :)

i'm not sure what part of this is provocative.  ???
Same-sex smooching in the middle of an episode of Heroes on Monday night primetime TV would not have been ok a decade ago.

This was a tastefully done commercial. I am a big fan.

I liked that one better than the other gay DG ad..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikXwbQTf250&amp;feature=related

Which is tacky.
Title: Re: Ask a Homosexual
Post by: dbgirl on July 10, 2008, 12:18:48 PM
OK so forgive me if this territory has been covered.
What's with gay men crushing on women?  How serious are these crushes? Is it EVER a good idea for a straight woman to date a gay man?