Law School Discussion

Specific Groups => Minority and Non-Traditional Law Students => Topic started by: rojo on May 12, 2006, 08:51:56 AM

Title: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: rojo on May 12, 2006, 08:51:56 AM
I wouldn't do it that way but that's just me.  :)
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: Mr. Pink on May 12, 2006, 09:32:42 AM
I wouldn't do it that way but that's just me.  :)

Your a noob so you wouldnt know this but it's impossible to have a conversation on AA on this board.  :)
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 12, 2006, 09:39:53 AM
(http://www.seanrandallphotography.com/children/berte%20laughing.jpg)

on so many levels
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: Alamo on May 12, 2006, 09:46:44 AM
I think it's good.  People are going to have opinions on it, and it's better to have a repository for addressing AA critiques (few are logical enough to deserve being called this) as opposed to having a number of threads elsewhere hijacked with random off-the-wall anti-AA comments (not that this doesn't happen, but I think it would be worse without the AA board).

Even many AA supporters don't think it's perfect; an AA board is a good place to suggest improvements to the current system.  I think that the semi-anonymous message board medium is more conducive to genuine discussion than in-person discussion, in which people are almost always afraid to say what they really think.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: rojo on May 12, 2006, 09:55:06 AM
Sure, but a whole board?
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: Alamo on May 12, 2006, 09:57:03 AM
Yeah, maybe half a board would be better.  ;)
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: Thou on May 12, 2006, 03:38:10 PM
[tag]
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: Mr. Pink on May 13, 2006, 06:05:42 AM
(http://www.seanrandallphotography.com/children/berte%20laughing.jpg)

on so many levels

what's with the babies lately?

(http://www.seanrandallphotography.com/children/berte%20laughing.jpg)

on so many levels

what's with the babies lately?

I think red is subtly trying to tell us something with the baby pictures.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 13, 2006, 06:37:23 AM
That I've got a bun in the oven?
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 13, 2006, 06:43:25 AM
Eh. Not so odd. Getting bored of LSD, that's all. I might just clean up the conversations that I'm currently in and call it a day.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: Thou on May 13, 2006, 06:52:30 AM
That's what happens when everyone knows where they're going.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: H4CS on May 13, 2006, 06:55:13 AM
I checked out about a week ago.  I just feel like sniping at this point.  Where'd Googler go?
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: Thou on May 13, 2006, 06:55:50 AM
That's what happens when everyone knows where they're going.

but i've known where i'm going for the past two months. 

i think it's just gotten repetitive.

I'll bet your daily average went down after you found out.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: H4CS on May 13, 2006, 06:59:18 AM
That's what happens when everyone knows where they're going.

but i've known where i'm going for the past two months. 

i think it's just gotten repetitive.

I'll bet your daily average went down after you found out.

it actually went up.

googler's around.

You know it's funny.  I spent about two serious weeks on this site as I was chained to my desk Stan-style, but now, I just feel like looking to pick a fight.  It's people like Googler that keep me coming back.  I wonder what that says about us?
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: Thou on May 13, 2006, 07:00:13 AM
That's what happens when everyone knows where they're going.

but i've known where i'm going for the past two months. 

i think it's just gotten repetitive.

I'll bet your daily average went down after you found out.

it actually went up.

googler's around.

I knew it.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: finally on May 13, 2006, 07:05:09 AM
I think it's generally a bad idea.  I don't think people can post their thoughts on it without being inflammatory.  There definitely shouldn't be a whole board.  I think that if there has to be something it should be one thread in the off topic section (perhaps in Drinking the Haterade). There are way too many trolls to have more than one thread devoted to Affirmative Action.    

I don't look for fights on LSD but if someone says something inflammatory I just can't let it slide.  What's wrong with me? 
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: Thou on May 13, 2006, 07:06:43 AM
I just can't let it slide.  What's wrong with me? 

You're a tiger.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: finally on May 13, 2006, 07:12:02 AM
You're a tiger.
Who me?
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: Thou on May 13, 2006, 07:24:53 AM
I just can't let it slide.  What's wrong with me? 
You're a tiger.
Who me?

Yeah.  I should have given more context.  Itís just my way of saying you might have a bit of a fighter in you.  I donít mean you like to fight.  See, now Iím just making it worse.  It was meant to be a complement.  Oh well.  :-\
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: finally on May 13, 2006, 07:33:07 AM
I just can't let it slide.  What's wrong with me? 
You're a tiger.
Who me?

Yeah.  I should have given more context.  Itís just my way of saying you might have a bit of a fighter in you.  I donít mean you like to fight.  See, now Iím just making it worse.  It was meant to be a complement.  Oh well.  :-\

No, I absolutely take it as a compliment :).  Thank you!!!!   ;D
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: Alamo on May 13, 2006, 10:41:30 AM
Fair enough; if I were a minority instead of the generic WASP male that I am, I might feel differently.  But if there's not a forum for communicating opinions on AA, a lot of people will remain ignorant about it.  Those on one hand who think that it's reverse discrimination, and those on the other who think it will solve all of society's racial issues will simply go on believing it. 

I'm a big believer in Thomas Jefferson's words: "For here we will tolerate any error, so long as reason is left free to combat it."  And so long as error persists in our world, I think it is incumbent upon us to combat it with reason.  I'm a firm believer that reason works far better than censorship in advancing the ideals with which we wish to shape our society.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: dbgirl on May 13, 2006, 11:16:05 AM

It's a great idea! just name it 'Pissing in the Wind'
Yep. After reading about 1 million of these threads, I have yet to see anyone switch sides in this debate.  That is generally because they are started by militant anti-AAers who just want a place to vent.  I haven't seen anyone really trying to learn anything.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: finally on May 13, 2006, 11:41:25 AM
Fair enough; if I were a minority instead of the generic WASP male that I am, I might feel differently.  But if there's not a forum for communicating opinions on AA, a lot of people will remain ignorant about it.  Those on one hand who think that it's reverse discrimination, and those on the other who think it will solve all of society's racial issues will simply go on believing it. 

I'm a big believer in Thomas Jefferson's words: "For here we will tolerate any error, so long as reason is left free to combat it."  And so long as error persists in our world, I think it is incumbent upon us to combat it with reason.  I'm a firm believer that reason works far better than censorship in advancing the ideals with which we wish to shape our society.

I see your point.  Some of these people infuriate me with their banter about being called a racist or not instead of understanding what I'm really saying (or what other people or saying).   They talk about being attacked rather than backing up their comments.  I just think those people really don't know how to express themselves eloquently without being inflammatory and that's really unfourtunate for them  since they are attending / or hope to be attending law school.  I'm just realy adamant about people backing up their comments with factual information or even their own REAL experiences.   
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: Alamo on May 13, 2006, 11:44:53 AM
Fair enough; if I were a minority instead of the generic WASP male that I am, I might feel differently.  But if there's not a forum for communicating opinions on AA, a lot of people will remain ignorant about it.  Those on one hand who think that it's reverse discrimination, and those on the other who think it will solve all of society's racial issues will simply go on believing it. 

I'm a big believer in Thomas Jefferson's words: "For here we will tolerate any error, so long as reason is left free to combat it."  And so long as error persists in our world, I think it is incumbent upon us to combat it with reason.  I'm a firm believer that reason works far better than censorship in advancing the ideals with which we wish to shape our society.

I see your point.  Some of these people infuriate me with their banter about being called a racist or not instead of understanding what I'm really saying (or what other people or saying).   They talk about being attacked rather than backing up their comments.  I just think those people really don't know how to express themselves eloquently without being inflammatory and that's really unfourtunate for them  since they are attending / or hope to be attending law school.  I'm just realy adamant about people backing up their comments with factual information or even their own REAL experiences.   

Amen!
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: finally on May 13, 2006, 02:11:49 PM
 :)
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 14, 2006, 12:29:18 PM

It's a great idea! just name it 'Pissing in the Wind'
Yep. After reading about 1 million of these threads, I have yet to see anyone switch sides in this debate.  That is generally because they are started by militant anti-AAers who just want a place to vent.  I haven't seen anyone really trying to learn anything.

I've switched sides, for what it's worth.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: Alamo on May 14, 2006, 12:32:59 PM

It's a great idea! just name it 'Pissing in the Wind'
Yep. After reading about 1 million of these threads, I have yet to see anyone switch sides in this debate.  That is generally because they are started by militant anti-AAers who just want a place to vent.  I haven't seen anyone really trying to learn anything.

I've switched sides, for what it's worth.


It's not worth much if you won't elaborate.   :P 

Where did you start, where are you now, and how did you get there?
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: dbgirl on May 14, 2006, 12:38:31 PM
Yes, I'd like to hear more from red.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 14, 2006, 01:39:56 PM
Eh, it's complicated - the short version is that while I have some concerns about the consequences of affirmative action, I have not once seen an argument that focuses on these concerns rather than on the spurious excuses - "merit", "equality of opportunity", "color-blindness", "blacks do worse in law school" -  for being mean-spirited in the face of personal disappointment.

I should add that there are very compelling arguments for race-based AA, and that it is not a straightforward matter of choosing what is "right", but of what is better given the alternatives that one is faced with.

In the end, after all is said and done, one has to decide where one plants one's flag, and no matter what concerns I may have about AA, I can't stand with Googler, breadboy, fincavigia and the rest.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: Thou on May 14, 2006, 01:43:01 PM
Almost anything can count for merit given the right context.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: Thou on May 14, 2006, 01:53:34 PM
In the end, after all is said and done, one has to decide where one plants one's flag, and no matter what concerns I may have about evangelicals, I can't stand with Michael Moore, Howard Dean, Cynthia McKinney, Jimmy Carter and the rest.

I was wondering where I heard that before.

 ;)

 ??? :D
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: dbgirl on May 14, 2006, 02:03:26 PM
Eh, it's complicated - the short version is that while I have some concerns about the consequences of affirmative action, I have not once seen an argument that focuses on these concerns rather than on the spurious excuses - "merit", "equality of opportunity", "color-blindness", "blacks do worse in law school" -  for being mean-spirited in the face of personal disappointment.

I should add that there are very compelling arguments for race-based AA, and that it is not a straightforward matter of choosing what is "right", but of what is better given the alternatives that one is faced with.

In the end, after all is said and done, one has to decide where one plants one's flag, and no matter what concerns I may have about AA, I can't stand with Googler, breadboy, fincavigia and the rest.

Well I'm sure most people have figured this out by now, but I think the arguments that AA is a disservice to minorities is, generally speaking overblown. I don't know many minorities in law school who are in danger of failing out.  Sure, there are a handful, just as there are a handful of whites in law school who are on the very bottom of the curve.
And although AA may be benefitting some people who don't "deserve" it (I have seen this, at least, when it comes to summer jobs), it is also benefitting many people who would not have the opportunity to otherwise compete, e.g. poor people.  And despite what seems to be the popular perception ... there ARE poor people in law school (including myself.)

Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: H4CS on May 14, 2006, 02:12:12 PM
Eh, it's complicated - the short version is that while I have some concerns about the consequences of affirmative action, I have not once seen an argument that focuses on these concerns rather than on the spurious excuses - "merit", "equality of opportunity", "color-blindness", "blacks do worse in law school" -  for being mean-spirited in the face of personal disappointment.

I'm curious as to what consequences you are refering.  Are you speaking about backlash?  I think considering backlash as  a motivating social factor makes for a tough argument and I hear it in AA as much as I do in discussions surrounding date rape.  I'd like to hear more about this, but I realize it's tough for people to hold complicated views that might be seen as contrarian to orthodoxy within certain intellectual circles as it's far too easy to be branded by oversimplifications of your position.  Then again, you don't seem to be afraid of ruffling a few feathers.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 14, 2006, 02:46:34 PM
Well, for one thing there is a very large discrepancy in LSAT performance between, say, African Americans and Whites, and this (surely?) after accounting for schools, economic status, and the rest of it - hundreds of whites score above 170, for example, and only slightly more than a couple of handful of African Americans do so.

Is the LSAT just a test or is it indicative of a sort-of educational readiness? I think that, with the exception of games, that it is the latter. So that the disparities in LSAT scores likely reflect differences in readiness - in the ability to understand arguments, to read text etc.

There are causes for this that should probably be addressed at some point, and AA turns attention away from these causes, which is probably not a good thing. In fact, it's probably a really bad thing.


Another thing that one notices is that it is a blunt instrument in an unusual way. It seems to me that candidates of international origin   - Ethiopians, Ghanaians, Nigerians, W-Islanders -  are the ones that benefit in the greatest numbers from race-based AA, especially at the higher-ranked schools - and it's not clear to me that they face - on average - quite the same, specifically "race-correlated" circumstances that African Americans do, either before or after law school.

So you have a situation where future generations of African Americans are paying for a policy that is intended to redress institutional racism againt the present generation of African Americans, but it turns out that a significant plurality (maybe a majority?) of the beneficiaries are from another group altogether. It seems, in the aggregate and at the level of public policy, like a lose-lose proposition to me.


Obviously, the response to this concern would be to say that there's no effective difference between the race-effect faced by an Ethiopian, Nigerian, Haitian and black American. Maybe, although I personally don't buy it.

Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: finally on May 14, 2006, 02:48:59 PM
Well, for one thing there is a very large discrepancy in LSAT performance between, say, African Americans and Whites, and this (surely?) after accounting for schools, economic status, and the rest of it - hundreds of whites score above 170, for example, and only slightly more than a couple of handful of African Americans do so.

Is the LSAT just a test or is it indicative of a sort-of educational readiness? I think that, with the exception of games, that it is the latter. So that the disparities in LSAT scores likely reflect differences in readiness - in the ability to understand arguments, to read text etc.

There are causes for this that should probably be addressed at some point, and AA turns attention away from these causes, which is probably not a good thing. In fact, it's probably a really bad thing.


Another thing that one notices is that it is a blunt instrument in an unusual way. It seems to me that candidates of international origin   - Ethiopians, Ghanaians, Nigerians, W-Islanders -  are the ones that benefit in the greatest numbers from race-based AA, especially at the higher-ranked schools - and it's not clear to me that they face - on average - quite the same, specifically "race-correlated" circumstances that African Americans do, either before or after law school.

So you have a situation where future generations of African Americans are paying for a policy that is intended to redress institutional racism againt the present generation of African Americans, but it turns out that a significant plurality (maybe a majority?) of the beneficiaries are from another group altogether. It seems, in the aggregate and at the level of public policy, like a lose-lose proposition to me.


Obviously, the response to this concern would be to say that there's no effective difference between the race-effect faced by an Ethiopian, Nigerian, Haitian and black American. Maybe, although I personally don't buy it.



Wow, red, you've certainly raised some points that I have never even considered in the AA debate.  That's cool   :)
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 14, 2006, 04:47:21 PM
the majority of blacks I've met in college have been of no more than one generation away from Africa.  yes, they are the ones who need AA to get into law school?  or maybe, according to the logic behind AA, we should make a specific point that it must be ONLY for those whose GRANDPARENTS were in america?  hmmmmm?

You woudn't recognize logic if it gave you a blow-job.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 14, 2006, 04:56:28 PM
the majority of blacks I've met in college have been of no more than one generation away from Africa.  yes, they are the ones who need AA to get into law school?  or maybe, according to the logic behind AA, we should make a specific point that it must be ONLY for those whose GRANDPARENTS were in america?  hmmmmm?

You woudn't recognize logic if it gave you a blow-job.

my lsat seems to differ with your opinion.  besides the logic is pretty sound: how in the world can the arguments for AA be expanded to immigrant Nigerians more than immigrant Vietnamese?

Your LSAT? lol

You can't even spell, dude. Isn't this you?

except for a bunch of mongrels who through rocks at my car once
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: H4CS on May 14, 2006, 04:57:45 PM
the majority of blacks I've met in college have been of no more than one generation away from Africa.  yes, they are the ones who need AA to get into law school?  or maybe, according to the logic behind AA, we should make a specific point that it must be ONLY for those whose GRANDPARENTS were in america?  hmmmmm?

You woudn't recognize logic if it gave you a blow-job.

So it turns out that logic is a Cambodian named Sovann.  Who knew?

If I ever sober up, I may respond to some points, or think about them, or well, this is all moot, no?
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: finally on May 14, 2006, 04:58:05 PM
the majority of blacks I've met in college have been of no more than one generation away from Africa. yes, they are the ones who need AA to get into law school? or maybe, according to the logic behind AA, we should make a specific point that it must be ONLY for those whose GRANDPARENTS were in america? hmmmmm?

You woudn't recognize logic if it gave you a blow-job.

my lsat seems to differ with your opinion. besides the logic is pretty sound: how in the world can the arguments for AA be expanded to immigrant Nigerians more than immigrant Vietnamese?

Your LSAT? lol

You can't even spell, dude. Isn't this you?

except for a bunch of mongrels who through rocks at my car once

red you know I love you but you were a bit harsh there.  
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 14, 2006, 05:00:10 PM
Advice from me to you, finally:

(http://www.feuerwher.de/forum/troll.jpg)
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 14, 2006, 05:01:54 PM

So it turns out that logic is a Cambodian named Sovann.  Who knew?

If I ever sober up, I may respond to some points, or think about them, or well, this is all moot, no?

Eh, think about them - maybe. Respond? That just feeds the morons.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: H4CS on May 14, 2006, 05:04:02 PM

Eh, think about them - maybe. Respond? That just feeds the morons.

Woah, since when do I feed the trolls on this board, little miss something something, hey look over there.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 14, 2006, 05:05:08 PM
I keep telling you: it's Ms. not miss
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: H4CS on May 14, 2006, 05:05:48 PM
I keep telling you: it's Ms. not miss

And I keep telling you that until you hit thirty and smile once in a while, hey look over there.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: H4CS on May 14, 2006, 05:07:38 PM

in this case I was attacked for not being able to recognize a logical argument.  the best response to that is showing an objective example that I am, in fact, able to reason logically.  since I have not taken an IQ test recently, I point to the lsat.

Ow, my head.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: H4CS on May 14, 2006, 05:17:08 PM
actually, no, it would help if anyone here thought that the lsat is a good predictor of logical reasoning ability.  are you claiming otherwise?

Oh please make it stop.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 14, 2006, 05:21:03 PM
I think that you've got your YCs confused  :D
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: H4CS on May 14, 2006, 05:24:28 PM
I think that you've got your YCs confused  :D

God, is everyone in here asking for it, or is it me.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 14, 2006, 05:26:46 PM
I think that you've got your YCs confused  :D

God, is everyone in here asking for it, or is it me.

It could be me, I suppose. The subconscious asking for a spanking or some such.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 14, 2006, 05:29:06 PM

there is nothing about being impressed by a score that implies you must think that the score has certain other interpretations.  I'm not impressed by anybody's lsat.  but it is an OBJECTIVE measure of logical reasoning.

what logic do I need to display?  I asked how the "history of victimhood" reasoning for AA would account to the boost that would be given to a 2nd generation African-American whose parents emigrated from Nigeria more than a 2nd generation Vietnamese-American. I recieved an ad-hom response.

Faulty reasoning throughout. Give it up. Drink your milk, do your homework, something. Just spare us  :)
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 14, 2006, 05:37:33 PM
Spaulding likes suffering. Oh, I forget that you haven't visited his LSN.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 14, 2006, 05:43:05 PM
Maybe he could offer him a bologna sandwich.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 14, 2006, 05:49:27 PM
Maybe he could offer him a bologna sandwich.

Free?

Are you triple-checking your spelling, now?  ;)
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 14, 2006, 05:55:09 PM
Maybe he could offer him a bologna sandwich.

i don't get this one.

It's his favorite. Breakfast, lunch & dinner
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: BrerAnansi on May 14, 2006, 06:08:16 PM
Well, for one thing there is a very large discrepancy in LSAT performance between, say, African Americans and Whites, and this (surely?) after accounting for schools, economic status, and the rest of it - hundreds of whites score above 170, for example, and only slightly more than a couple of handful of African Americans do so.

Is the LSAT just a test or is it indicative of a sort-of educational readiness? I think that, with the exception of games, that it is the latter. So that the disparities in LSAT scores likely reflect differences in readiness - in the ability to understand arguments, to read text etc.

There are causes for this that should probably be addressed at some point, and AA turns attention away from these causes, which is probably not a good thing. In fact, it's probably a really bad thing.


Another thing that one notices is that it is a blunt instrument in an unusual way. It seems to me that candidates of international origin   - Ethiopians, Ghanaians, Nigerians, W-Islanders -  are the ones that benefit in the greatest numbers from race-based AA, especially at the higher-ranked schools - and it's not clear to me that they face - on average - quite the same, specifically "race-correlated" circumstances that African Americans do, either before or after law school.

So you have a situation where future generations of African Americans are paying for a policy that is intended to redress institutional racism againt the present generation of African Americans, but it turns out that a significant plurality (maybe a majority?) of the beneficiaries are from another group altogether. It seems, in the aggregate and at the level of public policy, like a lose-lose proposition to me.


Obviously, the response to this concern would be to say that there's no effective difference between the race-effect faced by an Ethiopian, Nigerian, Haitian and black American. Maybe, although I personally don't buy it.



I pretty much agree with everything you said here Red.  I do have a comment to make with regard to the bolded part: within two or three generations the differences that separate these immigrants groups (with regard to the AA beneficiaries and not the group as a whole) from the African-American community will be lost.  I may be wrong, but it would seem to me that  whether they are the great-great-granchildren of slaves or the grandchildren of Nigerian immigrants, they will be equally motivated to further the interests of their community.  I think the thrust of my point is that although the utilization of the perks of AA by immigrants may not lead to an entirely linear redress of institutional racism, barring mass repatriation, it acheives those limited aims.   
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 14, 2006, 06:14:30 PM
I pretty much agree with everything you said here Red.  I do have a comment to make with regard to the bolded part: within two or three generations the differences that separate these immigrants groups (with regard to the AA beneficiaries and not the group as a whole) from the African-American community will be lost.  I may be wrong, but it would seem to me that  whether they are the great-great-granchildren of slaves or the grandchildren of Nigerian immigrants, they will be equally motivated to further the interests of their community.  I think the thrust of my point is that although the utilization of the perks of AA by immigrants may not lead to an entirely linear redress of institutional racism, barring mass repatriation, it acheives those limited aims.   

yes, this could be a fair point. It's still an incredibly cost-ineffective way of going about the redress of current disadvantage, however.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: BrerAnansi on May 14, 2006, 06:25:50 PM
Agreed.  I think I owe you a response on another thread where we were discussing proactive rather than retroactive means to address the disparities.  I've forgotten what it's called, but it's somewhere in my unreads.  I've been absent from LSD for a while, busy with school and all, but now I can make good on my pledge to submit my system to be picked apart and dismissed as unworkable.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 14, 2006, 06:41:06 PM
Ah, okay. I look foward to that  ;)
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: ! B L U E WAR R I O R..! on May 14, 2006, 07:53:15 PM
1.  it is amazing how intelligent and semi-intelligent law school potentials still are caught up in using race as a category to label people...

race is an archaic and vague term and in many cases is used to support arguments which fall under demand for specifics or examples.

...race is a cognitive delusion of our era...

2.  give up the aa arguments...it is here...get used to it. ;)


Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: H4CS on May 14, 2006, 09:08:30 PM
Wow, I lost what happened in this thread.  Someone please xplain to me how violence, spanking and bologna can solve the problems of AA.  In 250 words.  Remind me never to sober up.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: ! B L U E WAR R I O R..! on May 15, 2006, 09:51:40 AM
1.  it is amazing how intelligent and semi-intelligent law school potentials still are caught up in using race as a category to label people...

race is an archaic and vague term and in many cases is used to support arguments which fall under demand for specifics or examples.

...race is a cognitive delusion of our era...

2.  give up the aa arguments...it is here...get used to it. ;)




This isn't flame.  FWIW the only thing more simplistic than asserting that race does exist is asserting it does not.

as a label to categorize or box people it is a cognitive delusion...give me a definition of race with examples please to explain if possible...aye find it implausible in the modern age.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: ! B L U E WAR R I O R..! on May 15, 2006, 07:57:34 PM
"Indeed, a 2002 study by scientists at the University of Southern California and Stanford showed that if a sample of people from around the world are sorted by computer into five groups on the basis of genetic similarity, the groups that emerge are native to Europe, East Asia, Africa, America and Australasiaómore or less the major races of traditional anthropology.

One of the minor pleasures of this discovery is a new kind of genealogy. Today it is easy to find out where your ancestors came fromóor even when they came, as with so many of us, from several different places. If you want to know what fraction of your genes are African, European or East Asian, all it takes is a mouth swab, a postage stamp and $400óthough prices will certainly fall.

Yet there is nothing very fundamental about the concept of the major continental races; they're just the easiest way to divide things up. Study enough genes in enough people and one could sort the world's population into 10, 100, perhaps 1,000 groups, each located somewhere on the map. This has not yet been done with any precision, but it will be. Soon it may be possible to identify your ancestors not merely as African or European, but Ibo or Yoruba, perhaps even Celt or Castilian, or all of the above.

The identification of racial origins is not a search for purity. The human species is irredeemably promiscuous. We have always seduced or coerced our neighbors even when they have a foreign look about them and we don't understand a word. If Hispanics, for example, are composed of a recent and evolving blend of European, American Indian and African genes, then the Uighurs of Central Asia can be seen as a 3,000-year-old mix of West European and East Asian genes. Even homogenous groups like native Swedes bear the genetic imprint of successive nameless migrations.

Some critics believe that these ambiguities render the very notion of race worthless."

not worthless...but still a cognitive delusion of our era...

so there are five races or are there are 1000 races...because of ambiguity it seems like a lousy tool for measuring anything...how can it be used to support an argument?  the author nails down 5, 100, 1000 and "the negrito racial stock" but not before he mentions tribes of "the Onge, Jarawa, Great Andamanese and Sentineleseó"
 
it is most obvious that the author does not like the word "ethnicity"...

by the way...that tsunami erased individuals from the face of the earth...from quite a few different cultures...

and as for the tsunami, horrific tragedy that it was, aye am absolutely not sure how many different races were involved let alone wiped out.


thanx for the article but there are jewels of differences in people to difficult to describe or measure by such a crude tool as race...race seems too like an ambiguous label.  good attempt however, although this article stretches aye have heard similar...it is still unconvincing.



xx. there is an obsolete definition of race: inherited temperament or disposition...obsolete is a succinct descriptive word for that definition.


Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: ! B L U E WAR R I O R..! on May 15, 2006, 09:34:24 PM
Agreed. 


good thing you backed off...glad you see my point. ;)
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: BrerAnansi on May 15, 2006, 09:59:01 PM
Grow a brain dipshit!
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: ! B L U E WAR R I O R..! on May 15, 2006, 10:24:43 PM
Grow a brain dipshit!



This isn't flame.  FWIW the only thing more simplistic than asserting that race does exist is asserting it does not.




you deleted your own post...not me...

guess you got to steppin'...
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 16, 2006, 07:29:43 AM
I'm a newbie here and I'm nervous about posting after some of the really mean things I've read. My opinion is that the board is not so much good as it is useful, but not for the reasons most likely behind it's existence. I think the board reveals some posters' true colors and provides some insight into prevalent states of mind that most people wouldn't otherwise publicly admit for fear of being ostracized. I think it's good to remember that behind the masks people wear for the sake of being socially acceptable lies a great deal of bigotry, resentment, and outright hatred. This board is a good wake up call for me even if it is very demoralizing :-\

Well, I agree with this. It's why I've changed my mind. I didn't think that such true racists existed outside the ranks of the isolated and uneducated. Now I know different.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 16, 2006, 07:35:46 AM
Well, I agree with this. It's why I've changed my mind. I didn't think that such true racists existed outside the ranks of the isolated and uneducated. Now I know different.

it's nice to see people for the flawed, ugly, hateful creatures that they truly are, isn't it?  :)

It makes me sad, and then I get irritated at feeling sad, and then I just get annoyed.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 16, 2006, 07:42:09 AM
Yes, I'm going through my stages.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: H4CS on May 16, 2006, 07:45:29 AM
Yes, I'm going through my stages.

Screw that, drunken belligerence is the only stage worth visiting.  Why leave?
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: H4CS on May 16, 2006, 07:46:39 AM
Sit on it.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 16, 2006, 07:47:44 AM
Yes, I'm going through my stages.

Screw that, drunken belligerence is the only stage worth visiting.  Why leave?

Sober belligerence is my specialty. My baby tars are a schtick I think that I'll keep up.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: H4CS on May 16, 2006, 07:51:07 AM
Sober belligerence is my specialty. My baby tars are a schtick I think that I'll keep up.

(http://www.thai-blogs.com/media/baby.jpg)
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 16, 2006, 07:52:27 AM
Well, I agree with this. It's why I've changed my mind. I didn't think that such true racists existed outside the ranks of the isolated and uneducated. Now I know different.

I've found more unrepentant bigots among the ranks of the educated than among "regular" people. Maybe well-educated people can dress bigotry up in intellectual terms and theories that aren't seen for what they are. I think that less educated people tend to be more direct in their racism so they are easier to detect.

I grew up among uneducated racists, and their rationalizations are very similar to the racists on this board.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 16, 2006, 07:53:42 AM
Sober belligerence is my specialty. My baby tars are a schtick I think that I'll keep up.

(http://www.thai-blogs.com/media/baby.jpg)


(http://graphics.iparenting.com/clipart/newfamily/E009697L.JPG)
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: H4CS on May 16, 2006, 07:57:26 AM
(http://graphics.iparenting.com/clipart/newfamily/E009697L.JPG)


I'll drink to that

(http://aethlos.com/streaming/uploaded_images/drunk_baby_aethlos-769948.jpg)
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 16, 2006, 08:33:10 AM
(http://graphics.iparenting.com/clipart/newfamily/E009697L.JPG)


I'll drink to that

(http://aethlos.com/streaming/uploaded_images/drunk_baby_aethlos-769948.jpg)


uh-huh

(http://www.killyourroommate.com/.%5Cgalleries%5C1164super-baby-peeing-funny-faked-parodies-picture.jpg)
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: Thou on May 16, 2006, 08:33:20 AM
Well, I agree with this. It's why I've changed my mind. I didn't think that such true racists existed outside the ranks of the isolated and uneducated. Now I know different.

I've found more unrepentant bigots among the ranks of the educated than among "regular" people. Maybe well-educated people can dress bigotry up in intellectual terms and theories that aren't seen for what they are. I think that less educated people tend to be more direct in their racism so they are easier to detect.

It's like ironed-in wrinkles.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: H4CS on May 16, 2006, 08:40:27 AM
My goodness red, from spanking to this, we're hitting all of your proclivities in this thread.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: finally on May 16, 2006, 08:43:44 AM
I'm a newbie here and I'm nervous about posting after some of the really mean things I've read. My opinion is that the board is not so much good as it is useful, but not for the reasons most likely behind it's existence. I think the board reveals some posters' true colors and provides some insight into prevalent states of mind that most people wouldn't otherwise publicly admit for fear of being ostracized. I think it's good to remember that behind the masks people wear for the sake of being socially acceptable lies a great deal of bigotry, indifference to the plight of others, and outright hatred. This board is a good wake up call for me even if it is very demoralizing :-\

Agreed, for the most part.  I think some of the things that I've read here will truly make me into a better thinker and lawyer in the long run.  All of us should be better thinkers, at the very least, having read such a controversial topic. 
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: Thou on May 16, 2006, 08:46:45 AM
Hey, I don't want people to get the idea that talking about AA on a discussion board is a bad idea.  I'm just wondering if devoting a board to the topic is asking for trouble.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: Thou on May 16, 2006, 08:53:21 AM
I just reread my first post in this thread and I want to make it clear that the "really mean things" I was referring to weren't in this thread. I wasn't trying to call out anyone who has posted here and I hope no one took offense :)

who could be offended by a koala?
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: finally on May 16, 2006, 08:56:12 AM
I just reread my first post in this thread and I want to make it clear that the "really mean things" I was referring to weren't in this thread. I wasn't trying to call out anyone who has posted here and I hope no one took offense :)

Don't worry about it, sweetie.  :) I think people knew what you meant. We've all read some of the "mean things" that were only meant to anger people; not posted for an intellectual discussion.  Plus, with such a controversial topic some people are bound to get offended on both sides of the debate.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: John Galt on May 16, 2006, 10:42:10 AM
Good
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: Thou on May 16, 2006, 11:14:04 AM
Good

Why?  Iím not being argumentative.  I have a genuine curiosity.  :)
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: BrerAnansi on May 16, 2006, 11:49:49 AM
Repost just to clarify my stance.  I was hoping to delete my way out of this inane thread but oh well....

1.  it is amazing how intelligent and semi-intelligent law school potentials still are caught up in using race as a category to label people...

race is an archaic and vague term and in many cases is used to support arguments which fall under demand for specifics or examples.

...race is a cognitive delusion of our era...

2.  give up the aa arguments...it is here...get used to it. ;)




This isn't flame.  FWIW the only thing more simplistic than asserting that race does exist is asserting it does not.

as a label to categorize or box people it is a cognitive delusion...give me a definition of race with examples please to explain if possible...aye find it implausible in the modern age.

Deleted comment 1: http://raceandgenomics.ssrc.org/Leroi/  Start with that article and work your way down the list of articles on the side.  You'll notice I didn't give an opinion one way or the other, except merely to state that the opinion you are attacking is just as simplistic as the one you hold.

Deleted comment 2: So you select the article that falls in line with your way of thinking and quote it. Intellectual honesty at its best.  I'm sorry I wasted my time with you.  Carry on.  ;D


In summary: I got tired of you editing your previous post and misquoting me to try to make yourself look good.  This board is, from what I gathered, supposed to be about an exchange of ideas.  I see now I was wrong;  I'm supposed to discount the fact that the experts are in disagreement over an issue made complex not only by the science of it, but also by its political history, and instead accept your opinion at face value.  In your conception of the world this isn't a discussion board, it's a pissing contest.   
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: redemption on May 16, 2006, 11:59:21 AM
BrerAnansi trying to have a discussion with bluecoward? lol. Not possible. Don't blame you fr wanting to delete your way out.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: ! B L U E WAR R I O R..! on May 16, 2006, 08:17:53 PM
Repost just to clarify my stance.  I was hoping to delete my way out of this inane thread but oh well....
1.  it is amazing how intelligent and semi-intelligent law school potentials still are caught up in using race as a category to label people...

race is an archaic and vague term and in many cases is used to support arguments which fall under demand for specifics or examples.

...race is a cognitive delusion of our era...

2.  give up the aa arguments...it is here...get used to it. ;)




This isn't flame.  FWIW the only thing more simplistic than asserting that race does exist is asserting it does not.

as a label to categorize or box people it is a cognitive delusion...give me a definition of race with examples please to explain if possible...aye find it implausible in the modern age.

Deleted comment 1: http://raceandgenomics.ssrc.org/Leroi/  Start with that article and work your way down the list of articles on the side.  You'll notice I didn't give an opinion one way or the other, except merely to state that the opinion you are attacking is just as simplistic as the one you hold.

Deleted comment 2: So you select the article that falls in line with your way of thinking and quote it. Intellectual honesty at its best.  I'm sorry I wasted my time with you.  Carry on.  ;D


In summary: I got tired of you editing your previous post and misquoting me to try to make yourself look good.  This board is, from what I gathered, supposed to be about an exchange of ideas.  I see now I was wrong;  I'm supposed to discount the fact that the experts are in disagreement over an issue made complex not only by the science of it, but also by its political history, and instead accept your opinion at face value.  In your conception of the world this isn't a discussion board, it's a pissing contest.   


this is how aye feel about the ambiguous cognitive delusion of race...an inane thread...

misquoted you?

did aye even remark in any way that race does or does not exist?
delusions do exist...that is part of my point.

and for the record...you stooped to using a word like "dipshit" to express yourself...and aye thought you did not give an opinion one way or the other...aye was writing in reference to the article you posted and then deleted...

so don't get so upset...
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: ! B L U E WAR R I O R..! on May 16, 2006, 08:25:12 PM
BrerAnansi trying to have a discussion with bluecoward? lol. Not possible. Don't blame you fr wanting to delete your way out.

well, we know you always do a bang-up job...py*wn...

you know you enjoy getting waylaid in the quixotic-sansnonsensical humor of our bombastic confabulations.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: ImVinny! on May 18, 2006, 09:33:26 AM
Well, to tell you the truth, my opinions about AA did change from the time I started posting to now. At first I was vehemently against ALL AA no matter what, but then I started reading about an idea of economic-based AA. That seems like it would better solve the problems that AA claims to be solving, at least to me. The people that made their arguments for that were coherent and logical. I am still against race-based AA because it just does not seem to help anything, but I think socio-economic based AA would be a better "band-aid."

So there are people that have changed, even if slightly. Personally I would like to get rid of ALL AA, but I know that that is a delusional dream, of course.But if we must have it, I would rather it be based on the poverty line than the color of someone's skin.

If people would focus more on fixing the problems with education, eg elementary school etc, we might be able to get rid of AA, but I digress.
Title: Re: AA Board: Good or Bad?
Post by: ! B L U E WAR R I O R..! on May 30, 2006, 10:44:42 PM
BrerAnansi trying to have a discussion with bluecoward? lol. Not possible. Don't blame you fr wanting to delete your way out.

well, we know you always do a bang-up job...py*wn...

you know you enjoy getting waylaid in the quixotic-sansnonsensical humor of our bombastic confabulations.

and aye still put periods on the end of other's sentences... :D :D :D how rich and lovely is it.  ;)