Law School Discussion

Specific Groups => Minority and Non-Traditional Law Students => Topic started by: fincavigia on May 05, 2006, 08:20:36 AM

Title: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: fincavigia on May 05, 2006, 08:20:36 AM
Since we know how much AA allows "less-qualified" URM's to get into some schools, would that make you less likely to hire a black doctor or lawyer because you can't be sure they were qualified? Would it be racist do this?

I'm not advocating either side with this so don't flame me. I do want to hear what people think though.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Cree83 on May 05, 2006, 09:09:32 AM
they graduated didn't they?  that's really all i need to know.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: pikey on May 05, 2006, 10:01:18 AM
Since we know how much AA allows "less-qualified" URM's to get into some schools, would that make you less likely to hire a black doctor or lawyer because you can't be sure they were qualified? Would it be racist do this?

I'm not advocating either side with this so don't flame me. I do want to hear what people think though.

Do we?  I wasn't aware that this consensus had been reached.  Even if that was the consensus, that's a pretty stupid argument.  Competition for medical school and to a lesser extent law school is so intense that there are numerous applicants who don't get into any medical school who would be perfectly competent in their field.  As the OP said, graduating is a clear sign that they are competent, because neither law school nor medical school is exactly a walk in the park.

It should be apparent that this is a racist policy.  Clearly not all URM's are benefitting from AA.  It's impossible to know how much race factors into any single person's admission.  Even if it was a huge factor, it's what happens after you are admitted that makes all the difference.  Anyone who cannot see that this is a racist policy should not be going to law school.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: J D on May 05, 2006, 06:39:43 PM
All I will say is that some people need a logical refresher.  See Decomposition, Fallacy of.  ::)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: petitschoque on May 05, 2006, 08:40:12 PM
I certainly wouldn't be less likely to hire a black professional. In fact, the need for AA speaks volumes about society and would thus make me even more likely to hire a fellow black person over anyone else.

Quote
I'm personally going to judge everyone's merits individually, but I know numerous people who say they will not go to a black doctor, as blacks routinely get into med schools with 3.0's and 26 MCAT's.

Yea whateverrr. Having a black doctor as a father, I know for a fact that many racist whites talk a good game about not going to this and that minority person in xyz profession but are unsurprisingly full of it. My father broke the virtual monopoly that jewish doctors had over the medical business in the area before we arrived. Funnily enough, the majority of his patients nowadays are snooty white people who begrudge him his wealth even as they come to him because he is more personable and accessible than all the other doctors, and goes the extra mile. They like being treated like his top priority instead of [the] money-making annoyances [that they are]. As racist as they are, they're still attention-whores like most people and will pay to be cooed over by the most attentive and most professional doctor around...even if they hate that he's black and want to pretend he's not their intellectual superior by far. Billing is that much more fun for me when I know the source is an unwilling racist.

Everything I said about my dad--ditto for my equally black mom who's a lawyer with a majority white clientele now.

Face it: Only the most stupid racist (is that redundant?) would choose the rest over the best, especially in something as sensitive as medical or legal care. I wish it were otherwise, if only because racists (and that's what someone who has the audacity to look down on a professional because he/she is black is) deserve bad service.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 05, 2006, 10:56:30 PM
My dentist is black.
She's far more meticulous and professional than the idiots who f--ed up my teeth.

It was a white doctor and an asian doctor who conducted dental malpractice on me to the tune of $35,000.
I had to have almost every tooth in my mouth replaced because of the substandard work done by these fools.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: SCgrad on May 05, 2006, 11:12:08 PM
I certainly wouldn't be less likely to hire a black professional. In fact, the need for AA speaks volumes about society and would thus make me even more likely to hire a fellow black person over anyone else.

Quote
I'm personally going to judge everyone's merits individually, but I know numerous people who say they will not go to a black doctor, as blacks routinely get into med schools with 3.0's and 26 MCAT's.

Yea whateverrr. Having a black doctor as a father, I know for a fact that many racist whites talk a good game about not going to this and that minority person in xyz profession but are unsurprisingly full of it. My father broke the virtual monopoly that jewish doctors had over the medical business in the area before we arrived. Funnily enough, the majority of his patients nowadays are snooty white people who begrudge him his wealth even as they come to him because he is more personable and accessible than all the other doctors, and goes the extra mile. They like being treated like his top priority instead of [the] money-making annoyances [that they are]. As racist as they are, they're still attention-whores like most people and will pay to be cooed over by the most attentive and most professional doctor around...even if they hate that he's black and want to pretend he's not their intellectual superior by far. Billing is that much more fun for me when I know the source is an unwilling racist.

Everything I said about my dad--ditto for my equally black mom who's a lawyer with a majority white clientele now.

Face it: Only the most stupid racist (is that redundant?) would choose the rest over the best, especially in something as sensitive as medical or legal care. I wish it were otherwise, if only because racists (and that's what someone who has the audacity to look down on a professional because he/she is black is) deserve bad service.

you don't see the hypocrisy in this post?  you make a ton of blanket statements and sound rather "snooty" yourself.  js
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 05, 2006, 11:32:42 PM
A lot of white people get jobs because of nepotism.
Instead of saying to ourselves "Well, that person probably only got the job because Daddy is a doctor/lawyer," we think "Wow, that person comes from a long line of doctors/lawyers. They must be super-talented."


Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 05, 2006, 11:34:55 PM
they graduated didn't they?  that's really all i need to know.

I think it's less a question of graduating so much as it is passing licensing exams -- which are done blind.

After all, schools have an incentive to let their students graduate.  Professional organizations?  Not so much.  There's a fairly well-respected argument out there that says the fewer people let into a field, the more prestigious the field becomes -- and thus the more money its members can make.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: SCgrad on May 05, 2006, 11:39:31 PM
A lot of white people get jobs because of nepotism.
Instead of saying to ourselves "Well, that person probably only got the job because Daddy is a doctor/lawyer," we think "Wow, that person comes from a long line of doctors/lawyers. They must be super-talented."




that's a good point.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: fincavigia on May 05, 2006, 11:48:05 PM
I think that is a good point too.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 06, 2006, 12:40:57 AM
I would argue that there are far more people getting jobs because of who they know/are related to than because of their ethnicity. I have plenty of anectdotal examples (e.g. my classmates who are still in their first year but have post graduation jobs lined up.)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: SCgrad on May 06, 2006, 02:25:38 AM
A lot of white people get jobs because of nepotism.
Instead of saying to ourselves "Well, that person probably only got the job because Daddy is a doctor/lawyer," we think "Wow, that person comes from a long line of doctors/lawyers. They must be super-talented."




No, not a lot of people do.  A few do.  The number of legacy admits is GREATLY exagerrated on these forums, IMO.

change "IMO" to "IMCUO"
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: petitschoque on May 06, 2006, 05:35:59 AM
Yeah, I'm sure every single white in your area is a racist.  Perhaps you need more tin foil?

Obviously you have difficulty reading. Where in my post did it say every single white in my area is a racist? Don't say stupid things just for the sake of saying something.

Quote
you don't see the hypocrisy in this post?  you make a ton of blanket statements and sound rather "snooty" yourself.  js

Of course I sound snooty. I am. And?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: SCgrad on May 06, 2006, 07:51:36 AM
Yeah, I'm sure every single white in your area is a racist.  Perhaps you need more tin foil?

Obviously you have difficulty reading. Where in my post did it say every single white in my area is a racist? Don't say stupid things just for the sake of saying something.

Quote
you don't see the hypocrisy in this post?  you make a ton of blanket statements and sound rather "snooty" yourself.  js

Of course I sound snooty. I am. And?

And? that makes you a hypocrite, that is all.  carry on.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: rhombot on May 06, 2006, 08:05:17 AM
Since we know how much AA allows "less-qualified" URM's to get into some schools, would that make you less likely to hire a black doctor or lawyer because you can't be sure they were qualified? Would it be racist do this?

I'm not advocating either side with this so don't flame me. I do want to hear what people think though.

when you're going to a doctor or lawyer, you want to decide based on the individual's reputation, not demographics. get a recommendation from people you trust.

if you're new in town and don't know who to ask for a recommendation, ask a black woman. demographically speaking, they're the least likely to be full of s**t.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: rhombot on May 06, 2006, 08:06:38 AM

Yea whateverrr. Having a black doctor as a father, I know for a fact that many racist whites talk a good game about not going to this and that minority person in xyz profession but are unsurprisingly full of it. My father broke the virtual monopoly that jewish doctors had over the medical business in the area before we arrived. Funnily enough, the majority of his patients nowadays are snooty white people who begrudge him his wealth even as they come to him because he is more personable and accessible than all the other doctors, and goes the extra mile. They like being treated like his top priority instead of [the] money-making annoyances [that they are]. As racist as they are, they're still attention-whores like most people and will pay to be cooed over by the most attentive and most professional doctor around...even if they hate that he's black and want to pretend he's not their intellectual superior by far. Billing is that much more fun for me when I know the source is an unwilling racist.

Everything I said about my dad--ditto for my equally black mom who's a lawyer with a majority white clientele now.

theo huxtable? is that you?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: petitschoque on May 06, 2006, 09:57:20 AM
And? that makes you a hypocrite, that is all.  carry on.

Are you stupid? Or just trying out big words? I would be a hypocrite if I denounced my father's patients for their snootiness even while being snooty myself. Now was my post about their snootinesss? Go back and read my post more closely before jumping the gun this time.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: petitschoque on May 06, 2006, 09:59:59 AM
theo huxtable? is that you?

Ha! Good one.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 06, 2006, 01:27:34 PM
Maybe URMs actually do have more soft factors a lot of soft factors.
A lot of URMs are very active in the community, do a lot of volunteer work, have interesting work experience and/or are speak several languages. It could be that these factors, combined with being URMs, make these candidates particularly attractive. There are no shortage of well-to-do "my daddy was a lawyer and wanted me to go too types" in law school (hence no need to try to attract such students to a given school.)


Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 06, 2006, 01:30:53 PM
Kidding how?
How many URM law students do you know?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 06, 2006, 01:55:14 PM
Well what I said was based on a number of students that I know personally, who were accepted to law school.
A lot of people in law school have pretty interesting life stories.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: SCgrad on May 06, 2006, 06:46:16 PM
And? that makes you a hypocrite, that is all.  carry on.

Are you stupid? Or just trying out big words? I would be a hypocrite if I denounced my father's patients for their snootiness even while being snooty myself. Now was my post about their snootinesss? Go back and read my post more closely before jumping the gun this time.

No.  I read it once and that was enough.  If you are such a pretentious female dog that you not only spout off like a snooty, racist, a-hole, but also fail to realize this simple fact when told, then clearly you are a waste of time.  Enjoy your bitter, worthless life.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 06, 2006, 07:07:27 PM
Legacies are just better than everyone else  ;)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Guess who's coming to dinner?!? on May 06, 2006, 07:41:45 PM
Legacies are just better than everyone else  ;)

And cooler because their parents can afford to buy them the cool clothes and toys.  Damn it.

This post is interesting btw.  I clicked on it fully expecting some idiotic discussion but this is page turner. 

Also, I think it is funny that this rarely comes up in terms of AA; most URMs did not have the basic advantages that their non-URM counterparts have enjoyed (perhaps not consciously) their whole lives.  For example; Take a URM with a 3.7 and a 164 whose parents may have been working two jobs or lots of overtime while they were growing up and did not have a college (or maybe even high school) and thus were unable to help with homework or higher a tutor, then when the URM got to school they had to work to help pay their tuition.  Now compare that person with a non-URM 3.9 and 171 who had plenty of parental support; a nice HS education and didnt have to work in UG.  You think the non-URM worked as hard and overcame as much as the URM did? Get a grip on reality.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 06, 2006, 08:17:20 PM
How can you support legacies but not AA without having your head implode?  I guess the only way is if you just have never thought about it...

TITCR.

On a slightly tangential note, in an odd way this sums up the difference I noticed between Columbia and NYU.

You made the right choice. :)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 06, 2006, 08:22:11 PM
Yea whateverrr. Having a black doctor as a father, I know for a fact that many racist whites talk a good game about not going to this and that minority person in xyz profession but are unsurprisingly full of it. My father broke the virtual monopoly that jewish doctors had over the medical business in the area before we arrived. Funnily enough, the majority of his patients nowadays are snooty white people who begrudge him his wealth even as they come to him because he is more personable and accessible than all the other doctors, and goes the extra mile. They like being treated like his top priority instead of [the] money-making annoyances [that they are]. As racist as they are, they're still attention-whores like most people and will pay to be cooed over by the most attentive and most professional doctor around...even if they hate that he's black and want to pretend he's not their intellectual superior by far. Billing is that much more fun for me when I know the source is an unwilling racist.

Let me see if I can deconstruct this:

1. I like how you throw in the fact that the "virtual monopoly" was held by Jewish doctors, as if it was some sort of character flaw. Religion has nothing to do with what we're dealing with, which is race. You could've spoken of the white monopoly, but the fact you threw in that they were Jewish I think reveals a little bit about you.

2. "As racist as they are." You said you didn't speak in generalizations. But now every white person that goes to your father is racist? Pretty hard to believe. And that in the balance of things, even though they "hate" he's black, it's still worth it to them because they are attention-whores. Unbelievable. Somehow I doubt that they, if they were truly racist, would want to see a black doctor, no matter how good he is. You call them all racists and back it up with nothing; if anything, your anecdotes, if you can call them that, almost lead us to believe otherwise.

You talk of the Jewish hegemony, the white racist patients, their hatred of blacks, and their unwillingness to see black doctors. And then have the nerve to be aghast that anyone would dare question you. Yikes.

How did I miss this?

180.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 06, 2006, 08:26:19 PM
How can you support legacies but not AA without having your head implode?  I guess the only way is if you just have never thought about it...

TITCR.

On a slightly tangential note, in an odd way this sums up the difference I noticed between Columbia and NYU.

You made the right choice. :)

Only someone who thinks Wharton is somehow not like HYP would think there's a substantive difference between the two :)

::) WharTTTon is clearly TTT. 

This goes back to when I was giving Donnie advice on Columbia vs. NYU.  My entire point is that there's not a substantive difference between the two schools, but that the self-selection gives them different vibes. 

But as is often the case for those of us who aren't liberal arts majors, describing that vibe can be difficult.  It's much easier to just point it out when it comes up in other contexts.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 06, 2006, 08:28:59 PM
Eh, I have to wait until 2 before I can head to Atlantic City.  I'm trying to get the serious out now before it interferes with my poker. ;)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: petitschoque on May 06, 2006, 08:44:42 PM
1. I like how you throw in the fact that the "virtual monopoly" was held by Jewish doctors, as if it was some sort of character flaw. Religion has nothing to do with what we're dealing with, which is race. You could've spoken of the white monopoly, but the fact you threw in that they were Jewish I think reveals a little bit about you.

Oh really, and what is it exactly that it reveals, O Deconstructor?

1. The doctors were jewish and it was well known in the area that being jewish was very helpful in gaining the 'proper' connections. The monopoly was not simply "white" and religion was quite relevant. The area is predominantly Ashkenazi jewish, meaning white non-jews found themselves fighting an uphill battle just like everyone else. Inasmuch as you were not there when my father built his business, it isn't for you to tell me what factors were relevant to the story of his success. I'm the one telling this story, thank you very much, and I admire my father's ability to break through as a non-jewish, non-white.

Quote
2. "As racist as they are." You said you didn't speak in generalizations. But now every white person that goes to your father is racist? Pretty hard to believe.

2. Like another poster, you seem to have allowed your 'disbelief' to cloud your reading. I did not say that all of my father's white patients are racist. I simply called out the racist ones to illustrate my point. Don't stretch my words and then serve them back to me as if I won't catch the distortion. If you really have an issue, then dealing solely with what I said should give you ample room to explain yourself.

Quote
And that in the balance of things, even though they "hate" he's black, it's still worth it to them because they are attention-whores. Unbelievable.

What's unbelievable, Mr. Deconstructor, is your inability to read thoroughly and catch the point without being bogged down in word choice. The quality of medical attention is at an all-time low to hear some people tell it and many doctors are simply too overworked or uninterested to spend a lot of time on patients. This isn't anything new I'm presenting, it's a well-discussed problem with medicine today. My father takes a lot more time than his colleagues, makes house calls when that's virtually unheard among doctors in our area, and goes the extra mile to interact with his patients instead of giving them the chat-diagnose-goodbye routine. That matters, believe it or not, and as I pointed out, I believe it is the secret of his success. The point of my post was not the word 'attention-whore' and for you zero in on this as if I presented it as a sufficient explanation is dishonest. Period.

Quote
Somehow I doubt that they, if they were truly racist, would want to see a black doctor, no matter how good he is.

And I say that even racists value especially high quality care when it's available. But see, that's just my opinion just as what you wrote above is just your opinion. So exactly what do you want me to do? I don't care to convince you if you "somehow doubt" my point. It wasn't written for your benefit, Deconstructor.

Quote
You call them all racists and back it up with nothing

So let me guess, this is my cue to now lay out evidence of racism over the years at your exalted feet so my point may be believed? Well, I don't take cues very well. I called them racists and they're racists cuz I said so. The End. If that evidence isn't good enough for you then don't believe me. Deconstruct that.

Quote
You talk of the Jewish hegemony, the white racist patients, their hatred of blacks, and their unwillingness to see black doctors. And then have the nerve to be aghast that anyone would dare question you. Yikes.

Aghast? Puh-leeze. More like a-bored as hell. Everything you wrote can be summed up as "you pissed me off by mentioning jews then irritated me by putting your father's white patients out there and I don't like anything you said"...to which I would have said "Ha!" Wouldn't that have been much quicker?

You talk of deconstructing, disbelieving, and your unwillingness to believe my anecdote. And then have the nerve to offer one last exaggeration after the distortions you've already weaved through your post. Yikes.

Sorry to say, but this is a shabby attempt at "deconstructing." You should have let someone better qualified do the job. I'm sure you weren't the only one irritated by what I wrote.

Disclaimer: This post is directed at Dave the Poster not Dave the Moderator so kindly don't misuse your moderator status to viciously police my posts if my post pisses you off.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Guess who's coming to dinner?!? on May 06, 2006, 08:58:57 PM
1. I like how you throw in the fact that the "virtual monopoly" was held by Jewish doctors, as if it was some sort of character flaw. Religion has nothing to do with what we're dealing with, which is race. You could've spoken of the white monopoly, but the fact you threw in that they were Jewish I think reveals a little bit about you.

Oh really, and what is it exactly that it reveals, O Deconstructor?

1. The doctors were jewish and it was well known in the area that being jewish was very helpful in gaining the 'proper' connections. The monopoly was not simply "white" and religion was quite relevant. The area is predominantly Ashkenazi jewish, meaning white non-jews found themselves fighting an uphill battle just like everyone else. Inasmuch as you were not there when my father built his business, it isn't for you to tell me what factors were relevant to the story of his success. I'm the one telling this story, thank you very much, and I admire my father's ability to break through as a non-jewish, non-white.

Quote
2. "As racist as they are." You said you didn't speak in generalizations. But now every white person that goes to your father is racist? Pretty hard to believe.

2. Like another poster, you seem to have allowed your 'disbelief' to cloud your reading. I did not say that all of my father's white patients are racist. I simply called out the racist ones to illustrate my point. Don't stretch my words and then serve them back to me as if I won't catch the distortion. If you really have an issue, then dealing solely with what I said should give you ample room to explain yourself.

Quote
And that in the balance of things, even though they "hate" he's black, it's still worth it to them because they are attention-whores. Unbelievable.

What's unbelievable, Mr. Deconstructor, is your inability to read thoroughly and catch the point without being bogged down in word choice. The quality of medical attention is at an all-time low to hear some people tell it and many doctors are simply too overworked or uninterested to spend a lot of time on patients. This isn't anything new I'm presenting, it's a well-discussed problem with medicine today. My father takes a lot more time than his colleagues, makes house calls when that's virtually unheard among doctors in our area, and goes the extra mile to interact with his patients instead of giving them the chat-diagnose-goodbye routine. That matters, believe it or not, and as I pointed out, I believe it is the secret of his success. The point of my post was not the word 'attention-whore' and for you zero in on this as if I presented it as a sufficient explanation is dishonest. Period.

Quote
Somehow I doubt that they, if they were truly racist, would want to see a black doctor, no matter how good he is.

And I say that even racists value especially high quality care when it's available. But see, that's just my opinion just as what you wrote above is just your opinion. So exactly what do you want me to do? I don't care to convince you if you "somehow doubt" my point. It wasn't written for your benefit, Deconstructor.

Quote
You call them all racists and back it up with nothing

So let me guess, this is my cue to now lay out evidence of racism over the years at your exalted feet so my point may be believed? Well, I don't take cues very well. I called them racists and they're racists cuz I said so. The End. If that evidence isn't good enough for you then don't believe me. Deconstruct that.

Quote
You talk of the Jewish hegemony, the white racist patients, their hatred of blacks, and their unwillingness to see black doctors. And then have the nerve to be aghast that anyone would dare question you. Yikes.

Aghast? Puh-leeze. More like a-bored as hell. Everything you wrote can be summed up as "you pissed me off by mentioning jews then irritated me by putting your father's white patients out there and I don't like anything you said"...to which I would have said "Ha!" Wouldn't that have been much quicker?

You talk of deconstructing, disbelieving, and your unwillingness to believe my anecdote. And then have the nerve to offer one last exaggeration after the distortions you've already weaved through your post. Yikes.

Sorry to say, but this is a shabby attempt at "deconstructing." You should have let someone better qualified do the job. I'm sure you weren't the only one irritated by what I wrote.

Disclaimer: This post is directed at Dave the Poster not Dave the Moderator so kindly don't misuse your moderator status to viciously police my posts if my post pisses you off.

(nods head in agreement)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: petitschoque on May 06, 2006, 08:59:30 PM
If you are such a pretentious female dog that you not only spout off like a snooty, racist, a-hole, but also fail to realize this simple fact when told, then clearly you are a waste of time.  Enjoy your bitter, worthless life.

My! Aren't you a foul mouthed little c*nt? Oh well, the shame isn't on you, it's on that undoubtedly worthless whore-monkey of a slut mother of yours who produced something as uncultured as you and didn't have the decency to beat it to death. If we were face to face, I'd be inclined to bless your scandalous forehead with my spit. As it is, I'll have to settle for telling you the truth about yourself.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: petitschoque on May 06, 2006, 09:19:22 PM
To end this already:

1. I wasn't playing a "jewish card" (wtf is that?). If the jews in my area hadn't been up to shenanigans with their blatant discrimination against non-jewish doctors, I wouldn't have mentioned them. However, since they were, they were relevant to my discussion and I was not out of place to mention them. Was I supposed to give them some sort of pass for fear of being considered anti-semitic? Please. Sorry if seeing jews mentioned in a negative light makes you unhappy but the truth is the truth regardless of whether or not it upsets you. Your issue isn't with me.

2. The purpose of my post was not to trumpet my father's success but rather to use him as an example of my point. So get over him already. The point was that racist or not, people gravitate towards the best for the kinds of sensitive services that professionals offer. I used him to illustrate this because my personal experience with him was the source of my opinion. Period. Now put away your snide comments about his "rags to riches" story and how I'm "highlighting" his success. Catch the main point staring you in the eyeballs already.

3. Sense of entitlement and superiority? Whatever. You put yourself out there, Dave. If you expected to be treated with kid gloves after you had the arrogance to name yourself deconstructor of my post...well, apply this lesson to future dealings with me, hmmm?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dirtybirdlawboy on May 06, 2006, 09:31:55 PM
"I wasn't aware that this consensus had been reached."---- monili

How could you possibly believe that this consensus has not already been reached? It isn't a coincidence that URM's get into top schools with below average scores. It's not like every URM has an outstanding list of extracurricular activities that compensates for their low scores. It's just a matter of fact, URM's get at least ten points added to their lsat score just for being a minority. Look at the data on lawschoolnumbers.com, that website makes it conclusive that the consensus has in fact been reached and their is no arguing this. Minorities have a much easier time getting accepted to professional schools. Fact. End of discussion.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 06, 2006, 09:36:38 PM
Yes. Life is amazingly easy and wonderful for URMs. A
And being an ORM, especially a wealthy ORM, must be a horrible cross to bear.  :'(
I really feel for people like Paris Hilton. She has it so much worse than those poor Mexican maids she used to do her job on the Simple Life.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Alexis27 on May 06, 2006, 09:39:48 PM
AA would not make me less likely to hire a minority lawyer or doctor. I don't agree with AA, but I do not think it's right to punish those who benefit from it. If I were in their shoes, I would be happy to benefit from it too. Most of us would. Plus, it is not right to assume that all minorities have lower stats than non-minorities. Look on LSN. Some URMs have lower stats than most other applicants who are accepted to a given school, but some do not. If I were hiring for any position, I would judge applicants based on their qualifications, not on their race, AA or no AA.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dirtybirdlawboy on May 06, 2006, 09:46:28 PM
Between being Paris Hilton and one of those poor Mexican maids, if I was applying to law school, I'd like my odds of being a poor Mexican maid. They will both do poorly on the LSAT but at least the mexican maids will get some points added and then probably get a free ride.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: AtlantaSteve on May 06, 2006, 09:47:13 PM
Quote
Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?

Well, alcoholism would make me think twice about hiring any lawyer/doctor, black or otherwise.  However, if they were regularly attending meetings with a sponsor I might give benefit of the doubt.

Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: petitschoque on May 06, 2006, 09:54:59 PM
Fair enough. I did not mean to sound as if I was accusing you of anti-semitism or anything; I'm the last person to hold them to a special standard. But it sounded bad, that's all, and that was the basis for my comments.

All right. I understand that it might have sounded bad and I didn't mean it to.

Quote
It doesn't matter who started what. The fact that I put myself "out" there is also moot. Neither of those points gives you a free pass to act like you're better than others.

I certainly wasn't thinking I was better than you.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 06, 2006, 09:55:23 PM
I better double check my mail, because noone sent me my "Get into Yale free" card. I didn't realize all URMs got those.  I wonder if I could exchange Yale for Stanford? I would definitely like that.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dirtybirdlawboy on May 06, 2006, 10:03:08 PM


Fincavigia is just a racist flame. I take back everything I've said thus far.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 06, 2006, 10:54:04 PM
Hmmm ... I like the weather out here so I guess I'd take the $15k stipend.
I better call LSAC - they must've misunderstood when I self-identified as "other." I meant other in the sense that I am a super-URM (a minority among minorities.)  People of two or more races (non-Hispanic) make up fewer than 2 lawers in 1,000.
Perhaps that will get me twice the money at Stanford?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 06, 2006, 10:56:54 PM
I made the mistake of thinking I needed a higher LSAT score to go to Stanford.  I hope I can straighten this all out.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: John Galt on May 06, 2006, 11:35:42 PM
"I wasn't aware that this consensus had been reached."---- monili

How could you possibly believe that this consensus has not already been reached? It isn't a coincidence that URM's get into top schools with below average scores. It's not like every URM has an outstanding list of extracurricular activities that compensates for their low scores. It's just a matter of fact, URM's get at least ten points added to their lsat score just for being a minority. Look at the data on lawschoolnumbers.com, that website makes it conclusive that the consensus has in fact been reached and their is no arguing this. Minorities have a much easier time getting accepted to professional schools. Fact. End of discussion.


No, not end of discussion and horrible analysis to support your claim. BTW, to your bolded point, you're a moron.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: John Galt on May 06, 2006, 11:41:30 PM
"I wasn't aware that this consensus had been reached."---- monili

How could you possibly believe that this consensus has not already been reached? It isn't a coincidence that URM's get into top schools with below average scores. It's not like every URM has an outstanding list of extracurricular activities that compensates for their low scores. It's just a matter of fact, URM's get at least ten points added to their lsat score just for being a minority. Look at the data on lawschoolnumbers.com, that website makes it conclusive that the consensus has in fact been reached and their is no arguing this. Minorities have a much easier time getting accepted to professional schools. Fact. End of discussion.


No, not end of discussion and horrible analysis to support your claim. BTW, to your bolded point, you're a moron.

Kobe rapes people.  And he is pompous.  And he rapes people too.  Raja Bell for president.

Just wait until next year, Donnie. :P
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: John Galt on May 06, 2006, 11:44:24 PM
Kobe rapes people.  And he is pompous.  And he rapes people too.  Raja Bell for president.

i can't stop laughing.

bah!

Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: ivywhore on May 06, 2006, 11:50:52 PM
Alcoholics Anonymous?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 06, 2006, 11:51:57 PM
Alcoholics Anonymous?
I think most lawyers are already in this club. We were talking about it on another thread.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: ivywhore on May 06, 2006, 11:53:08 PM
Alcoholics Anonymous?
I think most lawyers are already in this club. We were talking about it on another thread.

so sad but so true.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 06, 2006, 11:54:07 PM
Alcoholics Anonymous?
I think most lawyers are already in this club. We were talking about it on another thread.

wouldn't that imply that you were on the road to recovery?

Oh. That's right. I don't have a problem with alcohol. I luv the stuff.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: ivywhore on May 06, 2006, 11:54:15 PM
recovery is temporary, this is a club w/lifetime membership.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: ivywhore on May 06, 2006, 11:56:13 PM
Mr. Kennedy?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: John Galt on May 06, 2006, 11:56:41 PM
beat me to it, ivy.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: ivywhore on May 06, 2006, 11:58:41 PM
beat me to it, ivy.

yeah baby ;D
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 06, 2006, 11:58:51 PM
Mr. Kennedy?

Which one?
Wait ... Patrick Kennedy does prescription drugs, not alcohol. His daddy is the alcoholic.
Then there was Michael ... he's the one who crashed into a tree, right?

Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Kittyl30 on May 07, 2006, 01:14:00 AM
i didnt read all the arguments but the OP's argument is completly absurd.  Of course i would higher a black lawyer/doctor..i mean AA may help marginally but face it a 152/2.8 no matter what race is not going to get into a top 10 law school

and i've never been a fan of AA but lately im changing opinions of it.. spending 20 years in NYC really warps your views. at the open houses i attened there were like 5 black people for every 2-300 whites.  it was ridiculous. i was completly appalled
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Kittyl30 on May 07, 2006, 01:14:40 AM
for the record there are tons of white kids that had to work their way through college..myself being one of them
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Kittyl30 on May 07, 2006, 01:17:04 AM
I certainly wouldn't be less likely to hire a black professional. In fact, the need for AA speaks volumes about society and would thus make me even more likely to hire a fellow black person over anyone else.

Quote
I'm personally going to judge everyone's merits individually, but I know numerous people who say they will not go to a black doctor, as blacks routinely get into med schools with 3.0's and 26 MCAT's.

Yea whateverrr. Having a black doctor as a father, I know for a fact that many racist whites talk a good game about not going to this and that minority person in xyz profession but are unsurprisingly full of it. My father broke the virtual monopoly that jewish doctors had over the medical business in the area before we arrived. Funnily enough, the majority of his patients nowadays are snooty white people who begrudge him his wealth even as they come to him because he is more personable and accessible than all the other doctors, and goes the extra mile. They like being treated like his top priority instead of [the] money-making annoyances [that they are]. As racist as they are, they're still attention-whores like most people and will pay to be cooed over by the most attentive and most professional doctor around...even if they hate that he's black and want to pretend he's not their intellectual superior by far. Billing is that much more fun for me when I know the source is an unwilling racist.

Everything I said about my dad--ditto for my equally black mom who's a lawyer with a majority white clientele now.

Face it: Only the most stupid racist (is that redundant?) would choose the rest over the best, especially in something as sensitive as medical or legal care. I wish it were otherwise, if only because racists (and that's what someone who has the audacity to look down on a professional because he/she is black is) deserve bad service.

just to play devil's advocate here...you have a doc and a lawyer for parents with rich clientle.  obviously you never suffered monetarily/were economically disadvantaged. yet your race WILL help you out in admissions processes

not that im saying that a bad thing..just noticing things
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: SCgrad on May 07, 2006, 04:58:14 AM
If you are such a pretentious female dog that you not only spout off like a snooty, racist, a-hole, but also fail to realize this simple fact when told, then clearly you are a waste of time.  Enjoy your bitter, worthless life.

My! Aren't you a foul mouthed little c*nt? Oh well, the shame isn't on you, it's on that undoubtedly worthless whore-monkey of a slut mother of yours who produced something as uncultured as you and didn't have the decency to beat it to death. If we were face to face, I'd be inclined to bless your scandalous forehead with my spit. As it is, I'll have to settle for telling you the truth about yourself.

dear a-hole,

all the big kids turn the censor off. i can tell i've won becuase you are just trying to make me angry, which is a clear sign that i've done a wonderful job pissing you off.  this pleases me very much, as you very much deserve it. :)  everything i said i can stand by with your words as my evidence.  you are clearly a ginormous tool.  you, on the other hand, are talking about my mama?  you better get off your JHS's library computer so you can catch the short bus home.  oh, and i would bet dollars to donuts that if you were to meet me in real life, you would rethink your plans or face a mighty ass kicking.  female dog. ;D

sincerely,

SC

founder of the "nobody likes you" club

est.- the day you were born  :)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: petitschoque on May 07, 2006, 05:39:11 AM
just to play devil's advocate here...you have a doc and a lawyer for parents with rich clientle.  obviously you never suffered monetarily/were economically disadvantaged. yet your race WILL help you out in admissions processes

not that im saying that a bad thing..just noticing things

Hey suzieq, nice catch, I like your style. You're quite right that my parents are well off now however your assumption that I've never suffered monetarily or been economically disadvantaged is wrong. It wasn't so long ago that things were very different for us and I think part of my self-esteem is derived from knowing we turned nothing into a heckuva lot whereas most people in the same income bracket were born with a lot and just stayed there.

Anyway, you're also quite right in saying that my race might have helped me out during admissions and I don't see why it shouldn't have. My past experiences are closely tied to race since Africa's current situation has to do with racism and they make me a Soft Factor Queen in my own right. No shame in my game :)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: petitschoque on May 07, 2006, 05:53:09 AM
Quote
Now do you see why I hold the beliefs that I do?

Ooh, ooh, pick me! pick me!

Does the answer have to do with the fact that you're a rather sheltered tool utterly ignorant of your own foolishness and lacking the sense to shut up while your betters converse? It isn't hard to see why you hold the beliefs you do. The only mystery is why you think you're qualified to share them. I don't think anyone with a discerning mind has any doubt at this point just how ill-suited you are for anything better than ditch-digging and it's all your fault for outing yourself. Talk about unqualified law school admits. Numbers really must cover a multitude of sins.

----------------------

SC, I'm going to pause to put you back under my shoe for just a second but after this point, you get no more attention. I mentioned your mother not to be mean but simply because my conscience demands I tell the truth. When I encounter particularly unworthy lowlifes like you, I know they were parented by equally unworthy embarrassments. Simple deduction. Duh.

Quote
founder of the "nobody likes you" club

est.- the day you were born 

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds," and your mind is especially vile and base in its mediocrity so why should it come as any surprise that you dislike me? Did you think expressing that would make me change my wicked ways? Lol. People better than you have disliked me so join the club quietly. Silly cretin.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: SCgrad on May 07, 2006, 06:07:17 AM
Quote
Now do you see why I hold the beliefs that I do?

Ooh, ooh, pick me! pick me!

Does the answer have to do with the fact that you're a rather sheltered tool utterly ignorant of your own foolishness and lacking the sense to shut up while your betters converse? It isn't hard to see why you hold the beliefs you do. The only mystery is why you think you're qualified to share them. I don't think anyone with a discerning mind has any doubt at this point just how ill-suited you are for anything better than ditch-digging and it's all your fault for outing yourself. Talk about unqualified law school admits. Numbers really must cover a multitude of sins.

----------------------

SC, I'm going to pause to put you back under my shoe for just a second but after this point, you get no more attention. I mentioned your mother not to be mean but simply because my conscience demands I tell the truth. When I encounter particularly unworthy lowlifes like you, I know they were parented by equally unworthy embarrassments. Simple deduction. Duh.

Quote
founder of the "nobody likes you" club

est.- the day you were born 

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds," and your mind is especially vile and base in its mediocrity so why should it come as any surprise that you dislike me? Did you think expressing that would make me change my wicked ways? Lol. People better than you have disliked me so join the club quietly. Silly cretin.


whatever, tool  ::)

did your mom teach you that "deduction"?  maybe that explains how she is a lawyer and you're still poor?  ;D
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: AtlantaSteve on May 07, 2006, 06:28:27 AM
I was kidding around when I tossed in my Alcoholics Anonymous joke earlier, I stumbled across this thread through the "Latest Posts..." box on the site's main page and thought the subject was funny.  I ordinarily wouldn't have seen the thread because I've never been in this board before.  Having read around a bit, I've reached the conclusion that this thread, and really this entire board, is utterly ridiculous and could be shut down.  Most of the whites posting here are transparently bigoted... and most of the blacks would do well to memorize the Serenity Prayer (google it) and chill out, when you carry around that much anger your ability to reason gets impaired and everything you say sounds stupid.

As for the question posed here... not really.  Sure, when I see a black lawyer I will of course assume that their school was a few notches above where they would have been accepted otherwise.  However, at that point you get into a discussion of how much of a ranking-whore you are... and most of the world doesn't have that bug as bad as the kiddies on LSD do.  If I think that an alumi from a school ranked #71 should have gone to #86, that really isn't even a factor in my mind.  If anything, race is just one factor that I would think of regarding school rankings.  When I meet a white or asian lawyer from Yale or Hardvard... I have to wonder if they are really a brilliantly competant attorney, or if they're a lawyer of average ability who focused on grades during undergrad and does well on standardized tests.  People love to argue that the LSAT is deeply flawed as a measure of how you'll perfrom in law school, well I would argue that law school is deeply flawed as a measure of how you'll perform as a practicing lawyer.

I'm from the "show...me...the money!" school of thought, I'm more likely to pre-judge a lawyer based on past results and personal presence.  If I were a high-powered executive shopping for corporate counsel, I would want to see resumes and references from past clients... that kind of work depends on experience and real-world knowledge.  If I were Joe Sixpack looking for a workman's-comp or divorce lawyer, I would mostly consider "soft factors" such as charisma and presense... that kind of work depends on being a strong negotiator and the ability to charm a jury.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: veg on May 07, 2006, 06:58:53 AM
OK, admittedly I haven't read the entire thread, or even the first post. But in answer to the question that the thread title poses: No. It's all the same once you've been to LS or MedSchool. I usually don't ask where my doctor went to MedSchool. I do ask my lawyers, though, just out of curiosity now that I know something about rankings, etc.
I don't think the school matters once someone's been practising a long time, and I also don't care whether they got in via affirmative action or not.
My immigration attorney is Black, and it didn't occur to me that AA may have helped her get into a good school until I asked her what she got on the LSAT (after I took it). She described her score as "not very good," but she went to Vanderbilt. However, that doesn't change the fact that she's a great attorney. It just does not matter to me where they went to school OR how they got in, ultimately. It only matters to me that they're good at what they do NOW.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 07, 2006, 07:38:09 AM
I think that I am unlikely to hire a black lawyer/doctor for two reasons that have nothing to do (well, we'll see) with AA.

First, the one that has to do with AA, but not in the intended sense.  There aren't, proportionally or otherwise, a whole lot of black lawyers and doctors out there.  Even if I were to choose at random, I'm pretty sure the odds still point to white middle-aged (perhaps aging) man.  I don't have the statistics, so feel free to correct me here.

The second reason is somewhat more complicated.  It has to do with how I choose a doctor or lawyer.  I think that it's hard to know who to choose among doctors and lawyers.  My current doctor is not black, and I do not currently have a lawyer.  If I move to a new area, I'm likely to choose a doctor based on two factors that will have some effect on their likelihood to be black. 

The first is going to sound somewhat racist, but you can make your own decision there.  Since working in nice suburbs generally is more desirable, particularly for a doctor, and since, in my experience in Philadelphia, doctors in the suburbs tend to have certain advantages over the city doctors, I'm likely to look for a doctor in that sort of area.  In my experience (and again, no statistics), a greater proportion of black doctors tend to work in cities than in suburbs.  If this is true, then I'm less likely to go to a black doctor.

The second factor I'd base my decision upon is the recommendations of friends that I trust in a given area.  As a matter of fact, the vast majority of my friends are white (I think this is relatively common for someone from my background), and I suspect that for their own reasons, they are more likely to go to white doctors.  If I ask them for recommendations, I'll probably get a white doctor.  Should I get a black doctor, that's fine with me--if a friend recommends him, he is probably great.  I just want a good doctor.  This is the primary factor I'd consider probably, even though it's imperfect.

This has nothing to do with the thread.

Also, there are some arguments above that have become tired, but I'll throw some unreasoned positions at them:

1) legacy and URM - you can't hate one too much without hating the other.

2) Petitschoque - I really don't think AA was designed for people of your socio-economic status.  Take it or leave it.

3) Daveman - I'm with you, for better or for worse.

4) Working - I worked between 25 and 35 hours per week during college.  10 is bs.  Work is not necessary related to race.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lurking Third Year on May 07, 2006, 09:09:43 AM
How can you support legacies but not AA without having your head implode?  I guess the only way is if you just have never thought about it...

People always make comments like this, and while I don't really care about this argument, I think it's clear that there is a difference.  The Constitution explicitly deals with discrimination on the basis of race, and even benign racial discrimination is generally prohibited.  Indeed, Grutter -- the case that held using race as a factor in law school admissions to further diversity/diversity is a compelling state interest -- is criticized in many circles and even my liberal con law professor who admittedly likes the result confessed that the Court may not have propertly applied strict scrutiny.  There is, however, no constitutional prohibition dealing with legacy admissions (though I suppose an argument could be made that they are being used as a surrogate for race as applied in some cases). So, there is clearly a reasonto treat racial preference differently from those based on legacy.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lurking Third Year on May 07, 2006, 09:19:13 AM
How can you support legacies but not AA without having your head implode?  I guess the only way is if you just have never thought about it...

People always make comments like this, and while I don't really care about this argument, I think it's clear that there is a difference.  The Constitution explicitly deals with discrimination on the basis of race, and even benign racial discrimination is generally prohibited.  Indeed, Grutter -- the case that held using race as a factor in law school admissions to further diversity/diversity is a compelling state interest -- is criticized in many circles and even my liberal con law professor who admittedly likes the result confessed that the Court may not have propertly applied strict scrutiny.  There is, however, no constitutional prohibition dealing with legacy admissions (though I suppose an argument could be made that they are being used as a surrogate for race as applied in some cases). So, there is clearly a reasonto treat racial preference differently from those based on legacy.

This distinction only really applies to public schools, however. 

True, the difference is only legally relevant to state actors.  But in a general debate, I still think that the fact that one type of discrimination is arguably unconstitutional and the other bengin is sufficient to think of them differently, or at least that drawing a distinction b/w the two isn't absurd.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lurking Third Year on May 07, 2006, 09:34:31 AM
True, the difference is only legally relevant to state actors.  But in a general debate, I still think that the fact that one type of discrimination is arguably unconstitutional and the other bengin is sufficient to think of them differently, or at least that drawing a distinction b/w the two isn't absurd.

Hey, race is very closely aligned with legacies, which are significantly more white than the rest of the population.  If legacies were given more preference, it's not clear there'd be any URMs at universities (we called that the Ivy League in the 50s).  They're interrelated.

I noted in my post that legacy status may be a surrogate for race in some instances -- I understand the relationship.  However, at least as a constitutional matter, disparate impact alone isn't enough.  In other words, when interpreting the equal protection clause, the courts distinguish b/w the use of race directly, and the use of factors that, while not directly involving race, have a correlation with race.  My point still stands that, as a constitutional matter, it makes sense to treat legacy admissions policies differently than those that those based on race.  All I'm trying to say is that it's not absurd to have a problem with one and not the other, and that factors other than self-interest could justify that belief. 
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 07, 2006, 09:58:18 AM
just to play devil's advocate here...you have a doc and a lawyer for parents with rich clientle.  obviously you never suffered monetarily/were economically disadvantaged. yet your race WILL help you out in admissions processes

not that im saying that a bad thing..just noticing things

Hey suzieq, nice catch, I like your style. You're quite right that my parents are well off now however your assumption that I've never suffered monetarily or been economically disadvantaged is wrong. It wasn't so long ago that things were very different for us and I think part of my self-esteem is derived from knowing we turned nothing into a heckuva lot whereas most people in the same income bracket were born with a lot and just stayed there.

So you worked 40 hour weeks while you were 12 to help your parents out?  Because if not, I don't see how you had anything to do with it.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on May 07, 2006, 10:29:24 AM
My last two doctors have been black (West Indian actually), so I have no problem with it.  Why would I, being black and all.  My dentist is white--again no problem.  I'm going to go to the person who knows what they are doing and knows how to treat their patients.  End of story.  I never ever thought to ask my doctors where they went to school or what their gpa/scores were.  For what?  Obviously, they have to past some type of medical board--which are graded blind.  THus if they past, they know their stuff (hopefully--that goes for all doctors bc malpractice does not work based on skin color).

Additionally, I agree with whoever said that if one dislikes AA then they should dislike legacy admissions.  I know some legacy admits, and a lot of them are dumb as hell.  As a matter of fact, my friend worked in the admissions office and told me that this one kids scores were so low (way lower than an avg URM) that there is no way he would have gotten in otherwise.

Also, the whole idea of one being qualified or not is totally subjective.  One call say that someone is not qualified for entrance into a grad program just because their board scores were in the 90th percentile instead of the 99th.  That's ridiculous. 

All of these AA comments tlaking about unfairness and unqualified urms seem to come about full force during admissions.  "They took my spot"  I always laugh at that.  Did anyone ever think that maybe schools have an unwritten number of urms that they want--thus the urms are competing for spots against other urms?  With that, they may have a set number of white or asian students that they want, so these people are competing against each other.

blah, I hate these arguments...
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 07, 2006, 10:35:27 AM
2. It would depend on its implementation.  If it was giving a small advantage to someone that truly has the potential to do better, but couldn't because of family circumstance.  But any disadvantage evaporates by college, so I don't support any type of AA for grad school. 

i'm not sure whether or not this is factually true, since i can imagine that people who are poorer might have to work through college and thus have less time to work on academics.  however, i'm not going to argue it at this point since i don't have any empirical data and i'm feeling rather lazy at the moment.

what about a small advantage to someone who was URM for college then?  or do you believe that URM are not disadvantaged once you control for socioeconomic background?

Honestly, I don't think having to work really affects grades.
  Think about how much time most people male private part around during college.  Spending 10 hours a week working wouldn't affect academics at all.

And yes, I do not believe for a second that a URM's are disadvantaged after controlling for socioeconomic background. 

Growing up poor, having to work through college (some work more than 10 hours/week), not having $$ to LSAT prep courses, not having lawyers in the family to run to for advice ... those things make a difference.

And as for the URMs get all the breaks claim ... I'll tell that to the (objectively less qualified in experience and quality of work) white boy who took my promotion.  I'll also tell that to my white boyfriend, who got a management job after the company demoted a minority.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 07, 2006, 04:12:12 PM
SC, I'm going to pause to put you back under my shoe for just a second but after this point, you get no more attention. I mentioned your mother not to be mean but simply because my conscience demands I tell the truth. When I encounter particularly unworthy lowlifes like you, I know they were parented by equally unworthy embarrassments. Simple deduction. Duh.

who is this petitschoque and why does he/she think that he/she's such hot *&^%?

(http://www.movieprop.com/tvandmovie/savedbythebell/lisac.jpg)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: fincavigia on May 07, 2006, 04:55:26 PM
petitschoque, where are you going to law school?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Kittyl30 on May 07, 2006, 05:10:16 PM
2. It would depend on its implementation.  If it was giving a small advantage to someone that truly has the potential to do better, but couldn't because of family circumstance.  But any disadvantage evaporates by college, so I don't support any type of AA for grad school. 

i'm not sure whether or not this is factually true, since i can imagine that people who are poorer might have to work through college and thus have less time to work on academics.  however, i'm not going to argue it at this point since i don't have any empirical data and i'm feeling rather lazy at the moment.

what about a small advantage to someone who was URM for college then?  or do you believe that URM are not disadvantaged once you control for socioeconomic background?

Honestly, I don't think having to work really affects grades.
  Think about how much time most people male private part around during college.  Spending 10 hours a week working wouldn't affect academics at all.

And yes, I do not believe for a second that a URM's are disadvantaged after controlling for socioeconomic background. 

Growing up poor, having to work through college (some work more than 10 hours/week), not having $$ to LSAT prep courses, not having lawyers in the family to run to for advice ... those things make a difference.

And as for the URMs get all the breaks claim ... I'll tell that to the (objectively less qualified in experience and quality of work) white boy who took my promotion.  I'll also tell that to my white boyfriend, who got a management job after the company demoted a minority.

there are white people that had to work through college too
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on May 07, 2006, 05:27:42 PM
2. It would depend on its implementation.  If it was giving a small advantage to someone that truly has the potential to do better, but couldn't because of family circumstance.  But any disadvantage evaporates by college, so I don't support any type of AA for grad school. 

i'm not sure whether or not this is factually true, since i can imagine that people who are poorer might have to work through college and thus have less time to work on academics.  however, i'm not going to argue it at this point since i don't have any empirical data and i'm feeling rather lazy at the moment.

what about a small advantage to someone who was URM for college then?  or do you believe that URM are not disadvantaged once you control for socioeconomic background?

Honestly, I don't think having to work really affects grades.
  Think about how much time most people male private part around during college.  Spending 10 hours a week working wouldn't affect academics at all.

And yes, I do not believe for a second that a URM's are disadvantaged after controlling for socioeconomic background. 

Growing up poor, having to work through college (some work more than 10 hours/week), not having $$ to LSAT prep courses, not having lawyers in the family to run to for advice ... those things make a difference.

And as for the URMs get all the breaks claim ... I'll tell that to the (objectively less qualified in experience and quality of work) white boy who took my promotion.  I'll also tell that to my white boyfriend, who got a management job after the company demoted a minority.

there are white people that had to work through college too

she didn't say that whites don't have to work through college...
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 07, 2006, 05:29:02 PM
2. It would depend on its implementation.  If it was giving a small advantage to someone that truly has the potential to do better, but couldn't because of family circumstance.  But any disadvantage evaporates by college, so I don't support any type of AA for grad school. 

i'm not sure whether or not this is factually true, since i can imagine that people who are poorer might have to work through college and thus have less time to work on academics.  however, i'm not going to argue it at this point since i don't have any empirical data and i'm feeling rather lazy at the moment.

what about a small advantage to someone who was URM for college then?  or do you believe that URM are not disadvantaged once you control for socioeconomic background?

Honestly, I don't think having to work really affects grades.
  Think about how much time most people male private part around during college.  Spending 10 hours a week working wouldn't affect academics at all.

And yes, I do not believe for a second that a URM's are disadvantaged after controlling for socioeconomic background. 

Growing up poor, having to work through college (some work more than 10 hours/week), not having $$ to LSAT prep courses, not having lawyers in the family to run to for advice ... those things make a difference.

And as for the URMs get all the breaks claim ... I'll tell that to the (objectively less qualified in experience and quality of work) white boy who took my promotion.  I'll also tell that to my white boyfriend, who got a management job after the company demoted a minority.

there are white people that had to work through college too

she didn't say that whites don't have to work through college...

I thought Susie was adding her thought's onto DB's against Googler's.

But I'm also trying to watch the Simpsons, so I could be misreading something. :-\
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on May 07, 2006, 05:33:45 PM
2. It would depend on its implementation.  If it was giving a small advantage to someone that truly has the potential to do better, but couldn't because of family circumstance.  But any disadvantage evaporates by college, so I don't support any type of AA for grad school. 

i'm not sure whether or not this is factually true, since i can imagine that people who are poorer might have to work through college and thus have less time to work on academics.  however, i'm not going to argue it at this point since i don't have any empirical data and i'm feeling rather lazy at the moment.

what about a small advantage to someone who was URM for college then?  or do you believe that URM are not disadvantaged once you control for socioeconomic background?

Honestly, I don't think having to work really affects grades.
  Think about how much time most people male private part around during college.  Spending 10 hours a week working wouldn't affect academics at all.

And yes, I do not believe for a second that a URM's are disadvantaged after controlling for socioeconomic background. 

Growing up poor, having to work through college (some work more than 10 hours/week), not having $$ to LSAT prep courses, not having lawyers in the family to run to for advice ... those things make a difference.

And as for the URMs get all the breaks claim ... I'll tell that to the (objectively less qualified in experience and quality of work) white boy who took my promotion.  I'll also tell that to my white boyfriend, who got a management job after the company demoted a minority.

there are white people that had to work through college too

she didn't say that whites don't have to work through college...

I thought Susie was adding her thought's onto DB's against Googler's.

But I'm also trying to watch the Simpsons, so I could be misreading something. :-\

it's quite possible...
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: veg on May 07, 2006, 07:31:08 PM
DAVE! I'VE MISSED YA!
No, seriously, where've ya been?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Guess who's coming to dinner?!? on May 07, 2006, 07:50:36 PM
Ooh, ooh, pick me! pick me!

Does the answer have to do with the fact that you're a rather sheltered tool utterly ignorant of your own foolishness and lacking the sense to shut up while your betters converse? It isn't hard to see why you hold the beliefs you do. The only mystery is why you think you're qualified to share them. I don't think anyone with a discerning mind has any doubt at this point just how ill-suited you are for anything better than ditch-digging and it's all your fault for outing yourself. Talk about unqualified law school admits. Numbers really must cover a multitude of sins.

You are a miserable bigot.  Like a lot of other blacks, you feel the need to blame Jews for everything that's ever gone wrong with you (look at the Crown Heights riots and the catastrophe at Freddy's in Harlem for reference). 

Keep in mind that Jews walked aside you during the civil rights demonstrations in the 60's.  Now you turn around and spit in our collective faces.  You disgust me.

As a jew, you disgust me and it is jews like you that make us all look bad.  On the other hand it is jews like me that make us all look great.  For the most part googler everything you have posted has made it apparent you have very little knowledge about what you are writing about; you have no real concept of what life is like for a person of color.  You need to get over yourself and FYI African-Americans don't owe jews *&^% so what is up with your attitude?  You make it seem like you walked along side MLK, and even if you did, is a black person supposed to automatically give you some type of stamp of approval and not have the nerve to question something you've said?Get off your privileged horse and don't start talking about things you know nothing of.  You need help.

Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 08, 2006, 12:53:29 AM
Googler,
There ARE black jews.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: veg on May 08, 2006, 01:10:55 AM
googler is such a cute racist.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Guess who's coming to dinner?!? on May 08, 2006, 01:14:47 AM
Googler,
There ARE black jews.

Yes, but I suspect she is full of *&^%. 
See how narrow minded you are?  You just further prove the point that you are an embarassment to Jewish people everywhere.  IS it not possible to be a URM as well as jewish?  Answer that question, then you get back to me.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Guess who's coming to dinner?!? on May 08, 2006, 01:17:45 AM
Googler,
There ARE black jews.

Yes, but I suspect she is full of *&^%. 
See how narrow minded you are?  You just further prove the point that you are an embarassment to Jewish people everywhere.  IS it not possible to be a URM as well as jewish?  Answer that question, then you get back to me.


Sorry, it's late, you did answer the question.  Funny how even though you admit that potentially there could be an African-American Jew or an Asian-American Jew you doubt that I am one.  What makes you doubt that googler?  If I was white would you question if I was jewish in response to my post or would you focus on what I actually said?

Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Guess who's coming to dinner?!? on May 08, 2006, 01:44:25 AM
Sorry, it's late, you did answer the question.  Funny how even though you admit that potentially there could be an African-American Jew or an Asian-American Jew you doubt that I am one.  What makes you doubt that googler?  If I was white would you question if I was jewish in response to my post or would you focus on what I actually said?

these exist?

Oh don't make me hurt you!  You people need a trip to the Bay Area pronto!  Sheesh! I know four without even thinking, but I do understand that is because of where I grew up. However; to ask if "these exist"  is a bit much.   :-\
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Kittyl30 on May 08, 2006, 03:04:36 AM
they exist but VERY VERY Rare
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 08, 2006, 04:38:11 AM
As a jew, you disgust me and it is jews like you that make us all look bad. 

This contains a hilarious, unintentional grammatical error.  It's only hilarious insofar as it's anti-semitic.

I'm not making fun, I just think it's funny how I first (mis)read it.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: SCgrad on May 08, 2006, 04:52:57 AM
As a jew, you disgust me and it is jews like you that make us all look bad. 

This contains a hilarious, unintentional grammatical error.  It's only hilarious insofar as it's anti-semitic.

I'm not making fun, I just think it's funny how I first (mis)read it.

nice catch.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: SCgrad on May 08, 2006, 04:57:42 AM
to be fair, she could have been referring to him OR herself.

yeah, i read it as referring to herself, but the fact that it could be read that way made it funny and a nice catch on bass' part.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 08, 2006, 08:50:51 AM
to be fair, anti-semitism is also racism.  i can understand if someone who's jewish takes offense when he perceives jews being painted as the bad guys.

I also don't agree that blacks don't owe Jews sh*t (I refuse to use the term African-American).  Look at Brandeis back in the 70's.  The students were almost all Jews or blacks.  In many major cities, the numerous Jewish run charitable organizations (like the Jewish Child Care Association for example) help primarily blacks and Hispanics. 

Jews overwhelmingly support and donate to liberal causes like social programs and affirmative action, which disproportionately benefit blacks, against Jews own interests. 

You keep doing this weird collective responsibility thing that's clearly the basis of anti-semitism.  Holding all Jews responsible for the perceived actions of other Jews in history has been a motivating factor of bigots everywhere.  You ignored my question before (your reading comprehension skills do seem poor enough to make me wonder whether I was right before): What have you done to advance civil rights?

I haven't done anything to advance civil rights, for several reasons.  Firstly, I don't believe that there are any real civil rights problems in this country anymore.  Furthermore, I don't do anything philantrophic when my efforts will go unappreciated.

  :D
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 08, 2006, 09:01:24 AM
(I refuse to use the term African-American).

Why?

I actually hate this term also.

I find it pretty disingenuous.  Clearly we only use it to indicate a person of color (which is why a white person from South Africa generally can not consider themselves an African-American), plus not all blacks live in America.

I guess the point when the term jumped the shark in my eyes was when I was watching the 2000 Summer Olympics and I realized how much the term had just replaced "black" in a one-to-one fashion.  The commentators had so completely simply replaced blacks with "African-Americans" that they were referring to Kenyans, Sudanese, Gambians, Ghanans, etc as African-Americans, when most of these people had never set foot on American soil.  It was completely asinine.  I'm all for equality, but I don't see how euphemisms help anyone.

Asian-Americans should be called what, then? "Yellows"? "Slant-eyes"? Some alternative?

I vote for Yellows. It goes with the theme of calling everyone a color.  ;)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: AtlantaSteve on May 08, 2006, 09:23:22 AM
I seldom use hyphenated ethnic terms like African-American, Asian-American, etc in verbal conversation.  I just say black, white, Asian, Latino, and so forth.  To me, there's just something weird and artificial about mixing nationality with ethnicity.  This has got to be a holdover from Europe up through the last century, when Europe considered itself the center of the universe... and with all the wars and division, each nation was viewed as practically a separate race. 

Hey guys, "Irish" isn't a race.  Neither is "French", or "Greek", or "Russian"... and neither is "African".  Those are nationalities, or pan-continental national identities.  Blurring the two concepts together is like categorizing an automobile as "half-sedan-and-half-silver".  Black people are indigenous (or just a couple centuries shy of indigenous) in Africa, Australia, South America, and the Carribean.  You can aruge that blacks in some of these regions migrated during in prehistorical times... but if you want to talk anthropologically, EVERYONE is of African descent if you look back far enough!

So in terms of race, a "French-Canadian" is (probably) just a white guy, and an "African-American" is (probably) just a black guy (or perhaps Dave Matthews).  Either way, the nationality description is seperate from their racial description.  Even in terms of nationality, you generally drop the hyphenated qualifier after your family has been settled somewhere for a few generations... unless you feel a sense of bitter isolation from the host nationality and are compelled to help perpetuate that.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 08, 2006, 09:27:14 AM
As a Scottish-Irish-African-American, I take issue with the idea that I'm just gray. That's so boring.
Perhaps taupe is a better description. It sounds more unique.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: AtlantaSteve on May 08, 2006, 09:37:38 AM
As a Scottish-Irish-African-American, I take issue with the idea that I'm just gray. That's so boring.
Perhaps taupe is a better description. It sounds more unique.

You're joking, but that an interesting tangent.  With all the over-the-top hyphenation of nationality to make ourselves feel more unique, the best we've come up with for a diverse racial background is... "mixed".  That's it?  That's the BEST we can do?  With interracial relationships SLOWLY becoming more accepted, and mixed children more common, it will be interesting to hear how the discussion unfolds as society becomes comfortable enough to have that discussion.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: pikey on May 08, 2006, 09:40:16 AM
As a Scottish-Irish-African-American, I take issue with the idea that I'm just gray. That's so boring.
Perhaps taupe is a better description. It sounds more unique.

My dad's side of the family is English-American, my maternal grandmother was Scotch-Irish-Canadian-American, and my maternal grandfather is Turkish-American.

So I'm English-Scotch-Irish-Canadian-Turkish-American.  Oh but the Turks aren't too far removed from Mongol heritage.  So I'm English-Scotch-Irish-Canadian-Turkish-Mongolian-American.  Get it right.

I don't like the term African-American because I'm not American.  Howeever, I don't care if other people use it.  I prefer black or even a person of color (i know its horrible in so many ways, but i still kinda like person of color).  Here in Bermuda I've heard the term African-Bermudian being used.  I don't really like it.  It just doesn't flow well.

I'm also at a loss at to how to qualify my heritage.  Bermuda isn't part of the Caribbean though it often gets tied in there (for those who don't know, it's in the middle of the Atlanta about 700 miles East of North Carolina).  I'm more likely to say that I'm West Indian (more general) than Caribbean.  Generally I'd just say Bermudian.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Guess who's coming to dinner?!? on May 08, 2006, 10:21:52 AM
I just love googler's blatent racism and his hate of "anti-semitism."

Also,

As a jew, you disgust me and it is jews like you that make us all look bad.

This contains a hilarious, unintentional grammatical error.  It's only hilarious insofar as it's anti-semitic.

I'm not making fun, I just think it's funny how I first (mis)read it.

There is no grammatical error.  I was speaking about myself.  Nice way to make an ass out of yourself bass--why couldn't I have been referring to myself? It makes perfect sense if you take out your prejudice about who can be jewish.

And googler, you are just not worth my time.  I'm sad that you are "one of those jews" but in reality I could care less. I am so acustom to dealing with racism from my own people (jewish people) that it doesn't phase me.  The question "How could you be jewish" still does offend me.  You are an ignorant prick but b/c you're a white male and jewish you'll probably never have any problems.  Good luck in life, but given your social standing you won't need it. I hope some bright ass AFRICAN AMERICAN  tears you a new one at CLS.

Also I HATE the term "black"  although I
 am guilty of using it from time to time.   First of all most "black" people are not "black" they are brown.  Second I prefer to be called African-American because of the way people of say "black"  or the worst "blacks"  It is used as a put down a lot (IMHO) "Blacks need to stop complaining about slavery"  do you not  see a difference in "African-Americans need to stop complaining about slavery"  To me it just sounds better.  Also Googler who the hell are you not to refer to somebody as they wish to be referred to?  You just sound like an all around a-hole. 

Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: John Galt on May 08, 2006, 10:37:15 AM
Affirmative Action would not make me less likely to hire a black doctor or lawyer. First, I wouldn't be sure that my attorney benefitted from Affirmative Action. It would be ignorant on my part to assume that just because such a program exists, then my potential attorney benefitted from such a program. Second, just because one benefitted from a program that helped them become admitted to a school does not mean that they are any less qualified in the professional position that they attain than those who did not benefit. I suppose class rank, prior work experience in the field, record of success, professional reputation, etc would become my primary criteria of choosing an attorney. Would you be less likely to hire a white woman knowing that white women are the primary beneficiaries of affirmative action? Or would you be less likely to hire a white male knowing that they are the primary beneficiaries of legacies? I'm not sure in the grand scheme of things, affirmative action or legacies has much predictive power on professional competence.

Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 08, 2006, 10:40:07 AM
Quote from: Guess who's coming to dinner?!? link=topic=61846.msg1308639#msg1308639
As a jew, you disgust me and it is jews like you that make us all look bad.

This contains a hilarious, unintentional grammatical error.  It's only hilarious insofar as it's anti-semitic.

I'm not making fun, I just think it's funny how I first (mis)read it.

There is no grammatical error.  I was speaking about myself.  Nice way to make an ass out of yourself bass--why couldn't I have been referring to myself? It makes perfect sense if you take out your prejudice about who can be jewish.

I hate to say it, Guess Who, but it is, technically, a grammatical error.  It's called a "misplaced modifier."  Basically, the phrase "as a jew" attaches itself to the first noun it finds, in this case, "you."  Bass was not being racist.  He was being, er, punctilious.  The sentence would have been more appropriately cast, "As a jew, I am disgusted..." or, "You disgust me, as a jew..."  Still, I don't think your intented meaning was murky at all, and I am surprised that others misread your post, especially given the reading comprehension acrobatics one needs to make sense of some of the the (grammatically and stylistically) bizarre posts on this board.


Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: yoyos on May 08, 2006, 11:10:55 AM
[[/quote]

I'll refer to someone however the hell I'd like. 
[/quote]


Just curious. is "n-word" your preferred term for blacks or "African-Americans?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: John Galt on May 08, 2006, 11:59:07 AM
Actually, Googler, your position is quite different from Donnie's.

Your position is such that if your wanted to call African-Americans "niggers", that that would be your prerogative, and that there would be nothing wrong with it.

That is quite different.

Your argument is actually quite hard to tell apart from that of a racist, which is why you may be eliciting responses of the kind that Donnie's don't.

It would still be my right to use racial slurs.  It wouldn't be moral, but people aren't under any obligation to refer to people as they want to be referred.

then when someone calls you a racist, don't argue with them. They have no obligation to refer to you as you want to be referred.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Guess who's coming to dinner?!? on May 08, 2006, 12:30:56 PM
Actually, Googler, your position is quite different from Donnie's.

Your position is such that if your wanted to call African-Americans "niggers", that that would be your prerogative, and that there would be nothing wrong with it.

That is quite different.

Your argument is actually quite hard to tell apart from that of a racist, which is why you may be eliciting responses of the kind that Donnie's don't.

It would still be my right to use racial slurs.  It wouldn't be moral, but people aren't under any obligation to refer to people as they want to be referred.

You are so stupid it is amazing googler pink person.  Jews face "Problems" but not the type that African Americans face and I believe I am the most qualified person to issue that opinion since I am both.  You on the other hand, have no basis for most of your ideas. 

And as you see above, since you think "black" makes the most sense you should start refering to white people as pink, since most of you have a pinkish tint to your skin.

Also, I would be curious to see what would happen if the partner you work under after you graduate is African-American and told you that s/he prefers to be refered to as such.  Would you still "refuse"  to use the more respectful term? 

As for the "as a jew" thing--it is not the point that there is a small grammatical error (which I still don't see but won't dispute it is there) it is more the point that the error has nothing to do with anything and pointing it out was just a way to poke fun even tho bass claims not to be doing that.  Sorry bass, offense was taken but I won't hold it against you.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Guess who's coming to dinner?!? on May 08, 2006, 12:39:05 PM
Actually, Googler, your position is quite different from Donnie's.

Your position is such that if your wanted to call African-Americans "niggers", that that would be your prerogative, and that there would be nothing wrong with it.

That is quite different.

Your argument is actually quite hard to tell apart from that of a racist, which is why you may be eliciting responses of the kind that Donnie's don't.

It would still be my right to use racial slurs.  It wouldn't be moral, but people aren't under any obligation to refer to people as they want to be referred.

then when someone calls you a racist, don't argue with them. They have no obligation to refer to you as you want to be referred.

If you haven't noticed, I don't really care if people call me a racist, as it is a sure sign they've lost the argument

Why should you care if people call you by your rightfull name my Jewish brother?

Edit: DIdn't see that part; there he goes again-showing that he is a truue racist! :D
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Guess who's coming to dinner?!? on May 08, 2006, 01:49:45 PM
Actually, Googler, your position is quite different from Donnie's.

Your position is such that if your wanted to call African-Americans "niggers", that that would be your prerogative, and that there would be nothing wrong with it.

That is quite different.

Your argument is actually quite hard to tell apart from that of a racist, which is why you may be eliciting responses of the kind that Donnie's don't.

It would still be my right to use racial slurs.  It wouldn't be moral, but people aren't under any obligation to refer to people as they want to be referred.

then when someone calls you a racist, don't argue with them. They have no obligation to refer to you as you want to be referred.

If you haven't noticed, I don't really care if people call me a racist, as it is a sure sign they've lost the argument

Why should you care if people call you by your rightfull name my Jewish brother?

Edit: DIdn't see that part; there he goes again-showing that he is a truue racist! :D

Idiot.

The fact is, "African-American" is a stupid politically correct term that is confusing in addition to the fact that it serves no real purpose.  I refuse to sign on to the idea that people should refer to racial minorities by whatever term is in style at the moment. 

The reason I know that your position is bull is that blacks get offended when white Africans use the term.  Why is that?  Do you consider yourself an American?  Yes, or no?  If yes, why the qualifier?

Like I said earlier, you're an ignorant idiot and now I am done arguing with you.  There is nothing to be acomplished here so without further ado I bid you all good day and good luck. :)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 08, 2006, 02:25:06 PM
Actually, Googler, your position is quite different from Donnie's.

Your position is such that if your wanted to call African-Americans "niggers", that that would be your prerogative, and that there would be nothing wrong with it.

That is quite different.

Your argument is actually quite hard to tell apart from that of a racist, which is why you may be eliciting responses of the kind that Donnie's don't.

It would still be my right to use racial slurs.  It wouldn't be moral, but people aren't under any obligation to refer to people as they want to be referred.

then when someone calls you a racist, don't argue with them. They have no obligation to refer to you as you want to be referred.

If you haven't noticed, I don't really care if people call me a racist, as it is a sure sign they've lost the argument

Why should you care if people call you by your rightfull name my Jewish brother?

Edit: DIdn't see that part; there he goes again-showing that he is a truue racist! :D

Idiot.

The fact is, "African-American" is a stupid politically correct term that is confusing in addition to the fact that it serves no real purpose.  I refuse to sign on to the idea that people should refer to racial minorities by whatever term is in style at the moment. 


I think Googler's right. We should go back to calling black people "coloreds."
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 08, 2006, 03:24:37 PM
Actually, Googler, your position is quite different from Donnie's.

Your position is such that if your wanted to call African-Americans "niggers", that that would be your prerogative, and that there would be nothing wrong with it.

That is quite different.

Your argument is actually quite hard to tell apart from that of a racist, which is why you may be eliciting responses of the kind that Donnie's don't.

It would still be my right to use racial slurs.  It wouldn't be moral, but people aren't under any obligation to refer to people as they want to be referred.

You are so stupid it is amazing googler pink person.  Jews face "Problems" but not the type that African Americans face and I believe I am the most qualified person to issue that opinion since I am both.  You on the other hand, have no basis for most of your ideas. 

FWIW, you're not alone on this observation: my cousins are Mexican on their father's side, and Russian Jewish on their mother's, and they've said the same thing.

Just my $.02.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 08, 2006, 03:34:40 PM
As for the "as a jew" thing--it is not the point that there is a small grammatical error (which I still don't see but won't dispute it is there) it is more the point that the error has nothing to do with anything and pointing it out was just a way to poke fun even tho bass claims not to be doing that.  Sorry bass, offense was taken but I won't hold it against you.

Oh, dear.

Well, I'm not here to defend Bass, really, but to stand up for linguistic precision in general.  Bass seemed to be saying, "Oh, look, as only a grammar nerd would, I misread your post. Tee-hee."  He thought it was funny because the misreading -- i.e., the technically correct reading -- of the sentence was anti-semitic:  with the modifying phrase "as a Jew" misplaced, As a Jew, you disgust me means the same thing as You disgust me because you are a Jew.  Now I do think that he was being ridiculously exacting and that one could find much more interesting and hilarious grammatical errors on other threads, but I also think that you shouldn't be offended.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: redemption on May 08, 2006, 03:46:31 PM
Well, to be fair, bass was being mischievous in writing "(mis)read", and in the context of this thread, it was a risky bit of mischief that was likely to rile up "guess who".


On another note, is it me, or is Googler on the verge of donning his hood?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 08, 2006, 03:49:20 PM
Birthday girl!  I hope you are having fun!

Well, to be fair, bass was being mischievous in writing "(mis)read", and in the context of this thread, it was a risky bit of mischief that was likely to rile up "guess who".

True, true.

On another note, is it me, or is Googler on the verge of donning his hood?

I have a dream.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: redemption on May 08, 2006, 03:50:23 PM
I'm back, for better or worse. Had a blast, though.  :)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 08, 2006, 04:48:12 PM
myself personally, i use the term black unless i know that the person to whom i'm speaking prefers the term african-american. 

I call people "African American" (in my stylebook without a hyphen unless it's an adjective that precedes the noun it modifies) if I know that they are African American and do not prefer other terms.  I call Africans "African" or by their countries or regions of origin (e.g., Ethiopian, West African) or ethnic group (e.g., Asante) if I know more.  I call black people of West Indian descent "Afro-Caribbean" or "West Indian," depending on their preference and my knowledge of their backgrounds.  Otherwise (as in "black Briton"), or when referring to a group of people of varied ethnic or national identities, I use "black."   

EDIT: to add that I am talking about formal situations above.  My friends and I frequently use the term "black" in informal conversation.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: coquita on May 08, 2006, 05:17:19 PM
My dentist is black.
She's far more meticulous and professional than the idiots who f--ed up my teeth.

It was a white doctor and an asian doctor who conducted dental malpractice on me to the tune of $35,000.
I had to have almost every tooth in my mouth replaced because of the substandard work done by these fools.


getting back to the original question, i totally agree w/ dbgirl. I had a white dentist screw up a molar so bad that it will probably die and have to be pulled next year. I also had a white doctor misdiagnose my dizziness an weak spells as hyperthyroidism. I got a second opinion and they found a heart malfunction that now has to be monitored. I am a URM, so will i do as the OP suggests and now only pick minority doctors? No, but i'll get a second opinion now on anything serious, regardless of the doctors skin color.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 08, 2006, 07:26:46 PM
I want to be clear, which is something I often say.

I don't care about the ethnic/racial/otherwise content of the statement.

"As a jew, you disgust me."

I find all misplaced modifiers funny when they have a possible alternative reading that is in some way funny.  It would be funny to read this as, "Since you are a jew, you disgust me."  This would be true if "jew" were replaced with "future law student," "Young adult," "human," or anything else.  I honestly don't give a *&^% about the jew thing here.

In other words, give me a f-ing break.  I think you took offense because you misunderstood what I meant.  That's fine with me.

Now, the (mis)read was meant to convey what I think is the clearest purpose for it.  I read it that way (unintentionally, the first time around, because that's what the grammar says).  But in reading it that way, I misread it.

Perhaps it's mischevious to point out someone's grammatical error, and perhaps it's mischevious to rile this poster up in particular.  I was just pointing out what I thought was a funny, honest mistake.

Also, my grammar is not perfect.  I don't care.  Point it out if it's wrong.  But I don't think it's worthwhile unless it's funny. If it's funny I'll laugh.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: J D on May 08, 2006, 07:32:12 PM
When you all get to law school (if you aren't there already), many of you will find that these kinds of problems (especially ones involving ambiguity regarding what a modifying word or phrase actually modifies) are a recurrent issue in statutory interpretation.  Just wait, the real fun is yet to begin.  You will find that the drafters of a rule or statute can sometimes be quite careless about what they do.  ;)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 08, 2006, 07:41:21 PM
When you all get to law school (if you aren't there already), many of you will find that these kinds of problems (especially ones involving ambiguity regarding what a modifying word or phrase actually modifies) are a recurrent issue in statutory interpretation.  Just wait, the real fun is yet to begin.  You will find that the drafters of a rule or statute can sometimes be quite careless about what they do.  ;)


Do they also hate jews?  I hate jew-haters.  Also jew lovers.  And Tobogganists.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: fincavigia on May 08, 2006, 07:45:45 PM
Bass, I didn't read anything you wrote, but whatever you said, that picture is so badass I cannot really argue with you.

EDIT: I skimmed through what you wrote, but that pic distracted me- and I still can't argue.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 08, 2006, 07:49:05 PM
Bass, I didn't read anything you wrote, but whatever you said, that picture is so badass I cannot really argue with you.

EDIT: I skimmed through what you wrote, but that pic distracted me- and I still can't argue.

someone else had a version where the cat drank the beer and changed the channel.  I need to change it.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: J D on May 08, 2006, 08:02:34 PM
When you all get to law school (if you aren't there already), many of you will find that these kinds of problems (especially ones involving ambiguity regarding what a modifying word or phrase actually modifies) are a recurrent issue in statutory interpretation.  Just wait, the real fun is yet to begin.  You will find that the drafters of a rule or statute can sometimes be quite careless about what they do.  ;)


Do they also hate jews?  I hate jew-haters.  Also jew lovers.  And Tobogganists.

Not that I've seen.  Everyone here is pretty friendly.  As long as you're not an @$$hole.  But professors just LOVE these "modifier, modifier, what do you modify" puzzles.  Drives most others nuts.  Especially since legislators don't always se correct grammar in drafting rules and statutes, so you can't automatically assume that the strictly grammatical meaning is the one they intended to be controlling. 
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 08, 2006, 08:03:27 PM
I take that as an offense because I am both a grammarian and a jew, and I find this anti-righthanded.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 08, 2006, 08:04:13 PM
When you all get to law school (if you aren't there already), many of you will find that these kinds of problems (especially ones involving ambiguity regarding what a modifying word or phrase actually modifies) are a recurrent issue in statutory interpretation.  Just wait, the real fun is yet to begin.  You will find that the drafters of a rule or statute can sometimes be quite careless about what they do.  ;)


Do they also hate jews?  I hate jew-haters.  Also jew lovers.  And Tobogganists.

Not that I've seen.  Everyone here is pretty friendly.  As long as you're not an @$$hole.  But professors just LOVE these "modifier, modifier, what do you modify" puzzles.  Drives most others nuts.  Especially since legislators don't always se correct grammar in drafting rules and statutes, so you can't automatically assume that the strictly grammatical meaning is the one they intended to be controlling. 

Fair enough, but I'm gone at the first sign of a toboggan.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: asdf1234 on May 08, 2006, 08:33:03 PM
Most professionals (Doctors, Lawyers, Dentists, Accountants) have to take a qualifying entrance exam that is race blind.  Anyone who passes that exam is qualified, and that's fine by me.  Beyond that, I will just judge them per their interactions with me.

Most people choose Denistists, Doctors, et cetera through a referral from a friend.  That's a much more accurate criteria than race would ever be anyways.

Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: John Galt on May 08, 2006, 11:33:52 PM
yes, if there are no mitigating factors.  I would never consider a black doctor just out of residency after HMS, while I'd consider a white one, due to AA.  Bluntly, AA means that a professional does not carry the cachet of the school.  He might be a perfectly good doctor, but he isn't an HMS doctor. 

This only applies to professionals a few years out of school, after that reputation would be the most significant factor.

I think we are all dumber for having read your post.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Guess who's coming to dinner?!? on May 09, 2006, 12:41:19 AM
Well, to be fair, bass was being mischievous in writing "(mis)read", and in the context of this thread, it was a risky bit of mischief that was likely to rile up "guess who".


On another note, is it me, or is Googler on the verge of donning his hood?

That's all I'm saying!!!  Why do that when you know it is just enflaming a situation?! Plus, bass don't give me attitude! >:( ;)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: George Jefferson² on May 09, 2006, 08:46:31 AM
yes, if there are no mitigating factors.  I would never consider a black doctor just out of residency after HMS, while I'd consider a white one, due to AA.  Bluntly, AA means that a professional does not carry the cachet of the school.  He might be a perfectly good doctor, but he isn't an HMS doctor. 

This only applies to professionals a few years out of school, after that reputation would be the most significant factor.

I think we are all dumber for having read your post.

i'm not, but that's because i've been innoculated against such things by exposure to breadboy.

While his argument sounds somewhat like a rant, he has a point.  If for some odd reason, you only want to be treated by a right out of school Harvard Medical School student, his argument makes sense.  To get into HMS, you have to be the absolute cream of the crop.  Therefore, he can be assured you are very bright.  However, due to affirmative action, a URM who was admitted to HMS may only have numbers that would have qualified him/her for Tufts or BU.  While this certainly doesn't mean that this person is dumb (getting into any top 50 medical school is a challenge), this person probably isn't the cream of the crop. 

Wouldn't this "cream of the crop" designation be earned while in medical school? No one cares if a star burns out before graduation.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: George Jefferson² on May 09, 2006, 08:57:25 AM
yes, if there are no mitigating factors.  I would never consider a black doctor just out of residency after HMS, while I'd consider a white one, due to AA.  Bluntly, AA means that a professional does not carry the cachet of the school.  He might be a perfectly good doctor, but he isn't an HMS doctor. 

This only applies to professionals a few years out of school, after that reputation would be the most significant factor.

I think we are all dumber for having read your post.

i'm not, but that's because i've been innoculated against such things by exposure to breadboy.

While his argument sounds somewhat like a rant, he has a point.  If for some odd reason, you only want to be treated by a right out of school Harvard Medical School student, his argument makes sense.  To get into HMS, you have to be the absolute cream of the crop.  Therefore, he can be assured you are very bright.  However, due to affirmative action, a URM who was admitted to HMS may only have numbers that would have qualified him/her for Tufts or BU.  While this certainly doesn't mean that this person is dumb (getting into any top 50 medical school is a challenge), this person probably isn't the cream of the crop. 

Wouldn't this "cream of the crop" designation be earned while in medical school? No one cares if a star burns out before graduation.

No, because medical schools are structured in a way that virtually nobody fails out. 

you don't have to fail out to be a poor student.

I'd go to a white or black doctor who was OK in undergrad but pwn3d medical school over a white or black doctor pwn3d undergrad but was weak in med school. When I am selecting a doctor, I am not particularly interested in how well he or she did in undergrad or on the MCAT. If I were an 8-hour multiple choice test I might be concerned. Chances are we will never discuss Bach, Locke, or any such person. I want to know if the doctor made the most of medical school. If the doctor has done well, I am ok with that.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: John Galt on May 09, 2006, 09:42:59 AM
yes, if there are no mitigating factors.  I would never consider a black doctor just out of residency after HMS, while I'd consider a white one, due to AA.  Bluntly, AA means that a professional does not carry the cachet of the school.  He might be a perfectly good doctor, but he isn't an HMS doctor. 

This only applies to professionals a few years out of school, after that reputation would be the most significant factor.

I think we are all dumber for having read your post.

i'm not, but that's because i've been innoculated against such things by exposure to breadboy.

While his argument sounds somewhat like a rant, he has a point.  If for some odd reason, you only want to be treated by a right out of school Harvard Medical School student, his argument makes sense.  To get into HMS, you have to be the absolute cream of the crop.  Therefore, he can be assured you are very bright.  However, due to affirmative action, a URM who was admitted to HMS may only have numbers that would have qualified him/her for Tufts or BU.  While this certainly doesn't mean that this person is dumb (getting into any top 50 medical school is a challenge), this person probably isn't the cream of the crop. 

Wouldn't this "cream of the crop" designation be earned while in medical school? No one cares if a star burns out before graduation.

No, because medical schools are structured in a way that virtually nobody fails out. 

I see.  So let me ask you a question then.  Let's say I'm sitting on a law school adcom and I'm reading an app from a student who transfered into Cornell.  Now to go to Cornell from HS, you sort of have to be the cream of the crop, but a transfer probably wasn't and only had numbers to go to a lesser school somewhere in Colorado.  Now, are you telling me that I should discount the transfer's record while he was at Cornell and immediately dismiss him out of hand because he didn't start with the same record, or should I consider how he performed in college?  Well, Googler?

excellent. Almost too easy.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: George Jefferson² on May 09, 2006, 10:46:10 AM
yes, if there are no mitigating factors.  I would never consider a black doctor just out of residency after HMS, while I'd consider a white one, due to AA.  Bluntly, AA means that a professional does not carry the cachet of the school.  He might be a perfectly good doctor, but he isn't an HMS doctor. 

This only applies to professionals a few years out of school, after that reputation would be the most significant factor.

I think we are all dumber for having read your post.

i'm not, but that's because i've been innoculated against such things by exposure to breadboy.

While his argument sounds somewhat like a rant, he has a point.  If for some odd reason, you only want to be treated by a right out of school Harvard Medical School student, his argument makes sense.  To get into HMS, you have to be the absolute cream of the crop.  Therefore, he can be assured you are very bright.  However, due to affirmative action, a URM who was admitted to HMS may only have numbers that would have qualified him/her for Tufts or BU.  While this certainly doesn't mean that this person is dumb (getting into any top 50 medical school is a challenge), this person probably isn't the cream of the crop. 

Wouldn't this "cream of the crop" designation be earned while in medical school? No one cares if a star burns out before graduation.

No, because medical schools are structured in a way that virtually nobody fails out. 

I see.  So let me ask you a question then.  Let's say I'm sitting on a law school adcom and I'm reading an app from a student who transfered into Cornell.  Now to go to Cornell from HS, you sort of have to be the cream of the crop, but a transfer probably wasn't and only had numbers to go to a lesser school somewhere in Colorado.  Now, are you telling me that I should discount the transfer's record while he was at Cornell and immediately dismiss him out of hand because he didn't start with the same record, or should I consider how he performed in college?  Well, Googler?

The whole premise is flawed, because I had the numbers to get into Cornell as a freshman (SAT: 1450, GPA: 93 from a good public school). 

How is the premise flawed?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: George Jefferson² on May 09, 2006, 10:54:51 AM
yes, if there are no mitigating factors.  I would never consider a black doctor just out of residency after HMS, while I'd consider a white one, due to AA.  Bluntly, AA means that a professional does not carry the cachet of the school.  He might be a perfectly good doctor, but he isn't an HMS doctor. 

This only applies to professionals a few years out of school, after that reputation would be the most significant factor.

I think we are all dumber for having read your post.

i'm not, but that's because i've been innoculated against such things by exposure to breadboy.

While his argument sounds somewhat like a rant, he has a point.  If for some odd reason, you only want to be treated by a right out of school Harvard Medical School student, his argument makes sense.  To get into HMS, you have to be the absolute cream of the crop.  Therefore, he can be assured you are very bright.  However, due to affirmative action, a URM who was admitted to HMS may only have numbers that would have qualified him/her for Tufts or BU.  While this certainly doesn't mean that this person is dumb (getting into any top 50 medical school is a challenge), this person probably isn't the cream of the crop. 

Wouldn't this "cream of the crop" designation be earned while in medical school? No one cares if a star burns out before graduation.

No, because medical schools are structured in a way that virtually nobody fails out. 

I see.  So let me ask you a question then.  Let's say I'm sitting on a law school adcom and I'm reading an app from a student who transfered into Cornell.  Now to go to Cornell from HS, you sort of have to be the cream of the crop, but a transfer probably wasn't and only had numbers to go to a lesser school somewhere in Colorado.  Now, are you telling me that I should discount the transfer's record while he was at Cornell and immediately dismiss him out of hand because he didn't start with the same record, or should I consider how he performed in college?  Well, Googler?

The whole premise is flawed, because I had the numbers to get into Cornell as a freshman (SAT: 1450, GPA: 93 from a good public school). 

How is the premise flawed?

Because we're talking about people who get into schools despite having crappy numbers.  Mine weren't. 

The question appeared to be about what a law school adcomm should do when faced with two types of applicants.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: George Jefferson² on May 09, 2006, 11:12:37 AM
Figuring out rank in med schools is much like figuring out rank at YLS, not HLS or undergrad.

One cannot surmise the quality of a doctor based on the grades recieved at medical school.  The only way one should go to a "new" doctor is if he graduated from a top school.  But AA means that given the information you have, a black doctor from a top school is less qualified than a white one.  Get rid of AA, get rid of this problem.

When all else is fuzzy, just go with the white guy?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: redemption on May 09, 2006, 11:21:24 AM
Figuring out rank in med schools is much like figuring out rank at YLS, not HLS or undergrad.

One cannot surmise the quality of a doctor based on the grades recieved at medical school.  The only way one should go to a "new" doctor is if he graduated from a top school.  But AA means that given the information you have, a black doctor from a top school is less qualified than a white one. Get rid of AA, get rid of this problem.

Does AA stand for "African-Americans" or for "Affirmative Action" in this instance?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: pikey on May 09, 2006, 11:35:17 AM
Figuring out rank in med schools is much like figuring out rank at YLS, not HLS or undergrad.

One cannot surmise the quality of a doctor based on the grades recieved at medical school.  The only way one should go to a "new" doctor is if he graduated from a top school.  But AA means that given the information you have, a black doctor from a top school is less qualified than a white one.  Get rid of AA, get rid of this problem.

That's pretty stupid.  Firstly, there's is very little AA in medical school.  I have numerous friends who have gone through the process (even the elusive black male) with decent numbers coming from good schools who have had difficulties.  My bf's bro, who starts his residency this year, just laughed when I asked him if there was AA in medical school.

Secondly, how you get there is not the key indicator of how qualified you are on the way out.  Having the best numbers doesn't mean that you'll lead the class and vice versa.  Some people just test well, at the end of the day it's the real world that makes all the difference.  What residency you get would be a better indicator, but still not perfect.

Thirdly, even in schools/disciplines/etc where there is considerably AA not all minority candidates benefit from it.  There are more who would have gotten in than those would would not.  Therefore, to exclude people because of their race is definitely racist.

"More qualified" is a subjective valuation that cannot be measured just by looking at the numbers.  I personally would avoid new doctors like the plague, regardless of their race or school :D Even the brightest people make mistakes, and those who are just starting out are more likely to make them.  FYI, avoid teaching hospitals like the plague (advice from my bf's bro the medical student).  :o

Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: asdf1234 on May 09, 2006, 11:37:52 AM

Thirdly, even in schools/disciplines/etc where there is considerably AA not all minority candidates benefit from it.  There are more who would have gotten in than those would would not.  Therefore, to exclude people because of their race is definitely racist.


I vote we have a group discussion on the difference between the word "prejudiced" and the word "racist" before we continue this conversation.
 
Not that either characteristic is good, but the distinction is important.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: redemption on May 09, 2006, 12:10:28 PM

Thirdly, even in schools/disciplines/etc where there is considerably AA not all minority candidates benefit from it.  There are more who would have gotten in than those would would not.  Therefore, to exclude people because of their race is definitely racist.


I vote we have a group discussion on the difference between the word "prejudiced" and the word "racist" before we continue this conversation.
 
Not that either characteristic is good, but the distinction is important.

http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,62113.0/topicseen.html
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: asdf1234 on May 09, 2006, 03:49:22 PM

Interesting new question:

A number of older black people I know have said they prefer black doctors / lawyers because they "feel more comfortable" with them.

People usually find this acceptable.  Yet if... Googler, for example, said that he wanted to choose white doctors / lawyers because he simply "felt more comfortable" with them, I bet a lot of people on this board would be shaken to their politically correct souls.

Is one of these examples racist?  Neither?  Both? 

Discuss.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Petitschoque on May 09, 2006, 07:13:33 PM
My, this thread has progressed. Let me kill it with just a bit more snarkery...

Quote from: Fincavigia
petitschoque, where are you going to law school?

Exactly how is this your business? Do you want to argue with me in person or are you going to pay my school fees? Here's a hint: We won't be going to school together.

Quote from: H4CS
And Petitschoque, there may be a certain degree of oversensitivity regarding anti-semitism, but if that means people think twice about what they say, that's fine with me. And you should have definitely thought twice about what you posted and if you continue to defend it, you're going to convince any remaining supporters that you do hold a double-standard when it comes to other people's backgrounds.

1. I really hate the Supporter Argument. If you're going to admonish me to pursue/avoid a course of action, give me a valid reason. Don't give me the We Won't Be Your Friends Anymore rationale, as if I came here to pick up buddies.

2. Anyone who saw anti-semitism in my post is oversensitive or looking for a reason to be put off by me (and managed to miss the obvious ones).

Quote from: Lily
So you worked 40 hour weeks while you were 12 to help your parents out?  Because if not, I don't see how you had anything to do with it.

Since when did what you see or don't see have any relevance to my anecdotes about my family? You speak as if your measure of contribution is the only valid one. Cute picture you posted in this thread, btw. By your own admission, you're a rather stumpy and ugly female of the not-even-with-beer-goggles-would-I-do-this-one sort...maybe I should dig up a representative picture? Or how about you hop off my back before I hop on yours?

Quote from: SW
who is this petitschoque and why does he/she think that he/she's such hot sh*t?

There's just something in the way I move...
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2006, 07:46:08 PM
Quote from: SW
who is this petitschoque and why does he/she think that he/she's such hot sh*t?

There's just something in the way I move...

we are not impressed.

I've just always wondered why there's an "s" in "choque."
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 09, 2006, 08:30:03 PM
play devil's advocate here...you have a doc and a lawyer for parents with rich clientle.  obviously you never suffered monetarily/were economically disadvantaged. yet your race WILL help you out in admissions processes

not that im saying that a bad thing..just noticing things

Hey suzieq, nice catch, I like your style. You're quite right that my parents are well off now however your assumption that I've never suffered monetarily or been economically disadvantaged is wrong. It wasn't so long ago that things were very different for us and I think part of my self-esteem is derived from knowing we turned nothing into a heckuva lot whereas most people in the same income bracket were born with a lot and just stayed there.

So you worked 40 hour weeks while you were 12 to help your parents out?  Because if not, I don't see how you had anything to do with it.

Since when did what you see or don't see have any relevance to my anecdotes about my family?

Hmm.  Sounds like someone can't legitimately answer the question.

Quote
You speak as if your measure of contribution is the only valid one.

No.  I speak as if I have a question about how a third party's actions impact your sense of your own achievements.  It's a seemingly minor point, but one that could be important.

Quote
Cute picture you posted in this thread, btw. By your own admission, you're a rather stumpy and ugly female of the not-even-with-beer-goggles-would-I-do-this-one sort...maybe I should dig up a representative picture? Or how about you hop off my back before I hop on yours?

Wow, this is much easier when your opponent is actively digging a grave for their credibility.

Seriously, you're give Googler a semi-legitimate leg to stand on. If you care about affirmative action, you might want to consider the power of silence. 
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Petitschoque on May 09, 2006, 09:09:04 PM
Wow, please die in a fire.

Your comment wasn't necessary but I can understand why you'd be upset with me. Lol, the first time you wrote that in response to someone, I laughed out loud and I laughed again now. I don't know why that comment's so funny to me.

Quote from: lily
Hmm.  Sounds like someone can't legitimately answer the question.

Oh. This is the part where I scramble to save face and type out a lengthy response to prove you wrong. 

Quote from: lily
If you care about affirmative action, you might want to consider the power of silence.


Because if I'm not careful to avoid upsetting the powerful people here...exactly what will happen? Maybe you won't hire me? Or be my friend? You'll snatch away Affirmative Action? :)

Quote
we are not impressed.

Maybe that should read "we're not impressive"? :) You know I wouldn't ever have stooped to notice you if you hadn't called my attention to you. What were you hoping to achieve?

Quote from: Miss P
I've just always wondered why there's an "s" in "choque."

I think that's because you're reading my username incorrectly: Petit + Schoque?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2006, 09:14:49 PM
Quote from: Miss P
I've just always wondered why there's an "s" in "choque."

I think that's because you're reading my username incorrectly: Petit + Schoque?

Yes, I know I am reading it incorrectly.  But why isn't it petits choques or petit choque?  Is there something I'm missing?  (It wouldn't be the first time.)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 09, 2006, 09:16:59 PM

Quote from: lily
Seriously, you're give Googler a semi-legitimate leg to stand on. If you care about affirmative action, you might want to consider the power of silence.


Because if I'm not careful to avoid upsetting the powerful people here...exactly what will happen? Maybe you won't hire me? Or be my friend? You'll snatch away Affirmative Action? :)

Funny how the answer to your question is in the sentence that you conveniently chopped.

Have fun in law school.  Something tells me you're going to have an experience eerily similar to Googler's.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 09, 2006, 09:23:27 PM
People have more power than you think.  I am still amazed that AA exists today.  Think about it.  The country is pretty split between Republicans and Democrats.  Virtually NO republicans support AA, and many Democrats don't either.  I'd venture to say that significantly less than half the population supports the policy, yet it persists. 

It's only a matter of time.  I for one, told my UG school when they asked for donations that I will not give a dollar as long as the school continues to use affirmative action. 

doesn't matter if it's less than half the country.  it matters what proportion of the donors to the universities it is. 

also lily, googler's experience will be infinitely superior to petitschoques.  he's going to school with me, after all.  ;)

you could have too.  damned georgetown.

Not damned Georgetown.  Damn UG-induced post-traumatic stress syndrome. >:(
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: philibusters on May 09, 2006, 09:27:15 PM
Quoting googler (a sweet name, in fact I am jealous of that title, but anyway...)

"People have more power than you think.  I am still amazed that AA exists today.  Think about it.  The country is pretty split between Republicans and Democrats.  Virtually NO republicans support AA, and many Democrats don't either.  I'd venture to say that significantly less than half the population supports the policy, yet it persists.

It's only a matter of time.  I for one, told my UG school when they asked for donations that I will not give a dollar as long as the school continues to use affirmative action. "

AA is definitely political but not all politics is about democratic voters deciding issues.  For one voters vote for politicians not particular issues.  For two, though law schools are partly political, they are outside democratic politics, so it wouldn't matter if only 1% of America thought AA was a good idea, organizations like law schools could still practice it if they thought it was a good idea.

What the hell is UG-induced post-traumatic stress syndrome?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 09, 2006, 09:29:54 PM
What's with petitdeleter?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Petitschoque on May 09, 2006, 09:32:32 PM
Funny how the answer to your question is in the sentence that you conveniently chopped.

Funny how you don't realize the sentence I chopped also leads to the basic question: So what? Exactly what will occur? You'll go home and be bitter about Affirmative Action? You'll apologize to Googler and be his friend again? You'll try your best to hunt me down and send baleful stares my way?

Nothing will happen except you and some others will choke down your anger and hold a grudge, so deal with it. By tomorrow I'll be in a better mood and you'll still be mad when you see my username ;)

Quote from: Lily
Have fun in law school.  Something tells me you're going to have an experience eerily similar to Googler's.

LOL.

Quote
People have more power than you think.  I am still amazed that AA exists today.  Think about it.  The country is pretty split between Republicans and Democrats.  Virtually NO republicans support AA, and many Democrats don't either.  I'd venture to say that significantly less than half the population supports the policy, yet it persists.  

It's only a matter of time.  I for one, told my UG school when they asked for donations that I will not give a dollar as long as the school continues to use affirmative action.

How do things like you survive to adulthood?

AA won't end because you refused to hand over your $10 check. And even when it does, what do you think will happen? Successful blacks will just return to the ghetto awaiting your pleasure? Things will go back to the good old days when untalented white people never had to fear competition from their darker betters? We'll all just regress and this time the jews you claim we ungrateful blacks owe everything will withdraw their help and we'll all just wallow in our ignorance until we've learned our lesson? Give me a play by play of exactly what happens in your fantasies.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 09, 2006, 09:37:27 PM
What's with petitdeleter?

people who delete and then come back are weird.

To be fair, I didn't return within 2 days to the same thread of douchebaggery.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Petitschoque on May 09, 2006, 09:42:59 PM
Somehow I suspect Googler's fantasies don't involve affirmative action but do involve bondage with dominant homoerotic themes, but that's just a guess here.  And I'd say enough with the jew-baiting, but at this point you've got as much credibility as a spokesperson for the nbpp, so what the hell, go wild.

Jew-baiting?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 09, 2006, 09:43:38 PM
I am in fact less likely to go to a doctor if I know he is a recovering alcoholic.

Damn jews.  Jew,Jew,Jew.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2006, 09:44:53 PM
I just want to understand your name, once and for all!  Can we settle that?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 09, 2006, 09:46:58 PM

Quote from: lily
Seriously, you're give Googler a semi-legitimate leg to stand on. If you care about affirmative action, you might want to consider the power of silence.


Because if I'm not careful to avoid upsetting the powerful people here...exactly what will happen? Maybe you won't hire me? Or be my friend? You'll snatch away Affirmative Action? :)

Funny how the answer to your question is in the sentence that you conveniently chopped.

Have fun in law school.  Something tells me you're going to have an experience eerily similar to Googler's.

Funny how you don't realize the sentence I chopped also leads to the basic question: So what? Exactly what will occur? You'll go home and be bitter about Affirmative Action? You'll apologize to Googler and be his friend again? You'll try your best to hunt me down and send baleful stares my way?

If you're incapable of reading the sentence I wrote, here's another one: you personify Googler's arguments about why race-based AA should be absolished. 

Also, I suggest you read my posts: even a cursory glance will clearly demonstrate that, until now, I've been a supporter of race-based AA, and I have never been particularly close to Googler. (Here's a hint: personal attacks only work if they're a) accurate, and b) remotely relevant.)

If you can't read this conversation and not realize the absurdity of your posts -- and the fact that you cannot say anything that does not involve a strawman argument -- you need to seriously reconsider law school.  Not for me (because I'm clearly not going to a law school worthy of you ::)), but for your own mental health.  As arrogant as you are, it will crush you. 

Quote
Nothing will happen except you and some others will choke down your anger and hold a grudge, so deal with it. By tomorrow I'll be in a better mood and you'll still be mad when you see my username ;)

Riiiight.  Because my posts are clearly filled with anger. ::)

I'm not going to be mad when I see your username; I'm just going to think you're an idiot.

I'm also going to think that people who want class-based AA to ENTIRELY replace race-based AA are correct.  Thank you for showing me the error of my ways.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 09, 2006, 09:50:20 PM
AA won't end because you refused to hand over your $10 check. And even when it does, what do you think will happen? Successful blacks will just return to the ghetto awaiting your pleasure? Things will go back to the good old days when untalented white people never had to fear competition from their darker betters? We'll all just regress and this time the jews you claim we ungrateful blacks owe everything will withdraw their help and we'll all just wallow in our ignorance until we've learned our lesson? Give me a play by play of exactly what happens in your fantasies.

Somehow I suspect Googler's fantasies don't involve affirmative action but do involve bondage with dominant homoerotic themes, but that's just a guess here.  And I'd say enough with the jew-baiting, but at this point you've got as much credibility as a spokesperson for the nbpp, so what the hell, go wild.

HAHAHA!  I always love how self-proclaimed "tolerant liberals" are always quick to use homosexuality as an insult.

who said it was an insult?  If you're into that, great.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 09, 2006, 09:54:56 PM
You miss, are a complete and utter moron.

I agree with Googler on something?  :o 

Pretty soon they're going to announce that they developed a medication that makes semen taste like brie.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 09, 2006, 09:56:49 PM
H4CS is gay? 

Makes sense; I've noticed virtually all of the good ones are. :'(
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2006, 09:57:05 PM
I'm not going to be mad when I see your username; I'm just going to think you're an idiot.

I'm also going to think that people who want class-based AA to ENTIRELY replace race-based AA are correct.  Thank you for showing me the error of my ways.

I don't get why Petitschoque's impolitic approach to this thread or her refusal to indulge your (sarcastic) question about her family's financial history should have any bearing on your feelings about race-based affirmative action.  

Also, I'm sick of all of you calling Petitschoque an idiot and questioning her ability to succeed in law school based upon her arrogance and possible bigotry.  Plenty of incredibly arrogant bigots do just fine in law school.  And I honestly wonder whether you would say these things the way you have been if she were white.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2006, 09:59:47 PM
I just want to understand your name, once and for all!  Can we settle that?

Mine or Bass'?

Jeez.  Further proof that no one ever really reads my posts.  Neither of yours.  Petitschoque's.  I don't understand the "s."

Do you think I'm completely daft?  Bass was "bass desire" with an avatar of a bass for a very long time.  And Googler?  is that really so difficult? ;)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 09, 2006, 10:00:34 PM
I'm not gay, but I'm not good either.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 09, 2006, 10:02:56 PM
I'm not gay, but I'm not good either.

Yeah, lets face facts -- you're pretty worthless. Please go away.

Petitdeleter gets to stay?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 09, 2006, 10:03:53 PM
I'm not going to be mad when I see your username; I'm just going to think you're an idiot.

I'm also going to think that people who want class-based AA to ENTIRELY replace race-based AA are correct.  Thank you for showing me the error of my ways.

I don't get why Petitschoque's impolitic approach to this thread or her refusal to indulge your (sarcastic) question about her family's financial history should have any bearing on your feelings about race-based affirmative action. 

Actually, it's not sarcastic.  I was trying to get to a somewhat legitimate point about how AA's problems with appropriating others' problems to gain an edge in admissions can start at the individual psychological level.

Quote
Also, I'm sick of all of you calling Petitschoque an idiot and questioning her ability to succeed in law school based upon her arrogance and possible bigotry.  Plenty of incredibly arrogant bigots do just fine in law school.  And I honestly wonder whether you would say these things the way you have been if she were white.

It's not a question of arrogance and possible bigotry: it's a question of having to rely on taking quotes out of context in order to create strawmen. 

I think the post at Barely Legal (http://barelylegalblog.blogspot.com/2006/05/bad-reason-for-attending-law-school-10.html) on the difference between arguing and arguments lays it out really nicely.  (I've heard the same thing about law school from other sources, just not nearly as elqouently.)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 09, 2006, 10:03:59 PM
AA won't end because you refused to hand over your $10 check. And even when it does, what do you think will happen? Successful blacks will just return to the ghetto awaiting your pleasure? Things will go back to the good old days when untalented white people never had to fear competition from their darker betters? We'll all just regress and this time the jews you claim we ungrateful blacks owe everything will withdraw their help and we'll all just wallow in our ignorance until we've learned our lesson? Give me a play by play of exactly what happens in your fantasies.

Somehow I suspect Googler's fantasies don't involve affirmative action but do involve bondage with dominant homoerotic themes, but that's just a guess here.  And I'd say enough with the jew-baiting, but at this point you've got as much credibility as a spokesperson for the nbpp, so what the hell, go wild.

HAHAHA!  I always love how self-proclaimed "tolerant liberals" are always quick to use homosexuality as an insult.

who said it was an insult?  If you're into that, great.

personally, i think that H4CS is just hoping googler's into that.  i've noticed that he has kind of a crush on him.

I hate to disappoint, but homoerotic bondage just isn't my thing. 

don't like bondage?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 09, 2006, 10:05:14 PM
I suspect many donors don't like it either, they just aren't opposed enough to withhold donations because of it. 

yeah, that was the other thing that i wanted to point out.  it doesn't matter if more than half of them disapprove.  the level of their disapproval also has to reach a point where they wouldn't donate if AA was discontinued.

No, what would have to happen is that the amount of donors who don't like AA and who are willing to withhold donations would have to be greater than the number of donors who would stop giving if AA were removed.  I, for one, would never give to any alma mater if it willingly reversed course on AA (if it were forced by the courts, I'd still probably not.  Hell I'm probably never going to have enough to give, so it's all moot).

I tend to think that the donors who don't support AA probably have more money than those who do.
I tend to think you're wrong. Hence scholarship money allocated to minorities.

Anyway, inspired by your generosity ... I vow to donate a significant portion of my estate to programs and scholarships that will improve diversity (economic, racial or otherwise) within the law. I'll call it the DB fund for legal education. Wealthy spoiled obnoxious white people need not apply (all other whites and any other races are welcome).  :)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 09, 2006, 10:06:10 PM
H4CS is gay? 

Makes sense; I've noticed virtually all of the good ones are. :'(

<---not gay.

are you excepting me?

No.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 09, 2006, 10:07:51 PM
Alright, I'm out. Play nice, kids. :)

but who will moderate?!
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2006, 10:10:19 PM
Since when do "frat" boys engage in homoerotic bondage?  I thought we rape black strippers and roofie sorority girls?  You need to get your story straight.

No, no, you act out in these ways precisely because of your anguish about repressing your homoerotic desires, see?

Also, it amazes me the way most conservatives can't see past the term "liberal" for people who oppose them.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 09, 2006, 10:10:37 PM
H4CS is gay? 

Makes sense; I've noticed virtually all of the good ones are. :'(

<---not gay.

are you excepting me?

No.

so i'm not a good one?  :-\

what's wrong with me?

Your about as interesting as a slab of granite chained to a desk.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 09, 2006, 10:11:23 PM
H4CS is gay? 

Makes sense; I've noticed virtually all of the good ones are. :'(

<---not gay.

are you excepting me?

No.

so i'm not a good one?  :-\

what's wrong with me?

C'mon, I'm a quantatitve girl; I can't phrase it nearly as eloquently as Red did. ;)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 09, 2006, 10:21:03 PM
Poor Stan  :'(
I have been having trouble following all the back and forth on this thread -- but something about all the good guys being gay.
Well, Stan, I'm sure you're a decent straight guy. There are some decent straight guys, unfortunately the majority makes the rest of you look bad.

On another note, it appears that Stan and Googler will be classmates next year  :D
Be sure to report back what the googlemonster is like IRL.

Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: faith2005 on May 09, 2006, 10:25:53 PM
except you can't choose your race...i guess red. was right. :o
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 09, 2006, 10:26:58 PM
Either stereotyping is right, in all cases, or wrong, in all cases. 

Do you really believe that this is how things work?

(I know you don't want to seem like you made a mistake here, so give it a minute.)

Ok, so after thinking about it, is this right?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2006, 10:30:42 PM
I'm not going to be mad when I see your username; I'm just going to think you're an idiot.

I'm also going to think that people who want class-based AA to ENTIRELY replace race-based AA are correct.  Thank you for showing me the error of my ways.

I don't get why Petitschoque's impolitic approach to this thread or her refusal to indulge your (sarcastic) question about her family's financial history should have any bearing on your feelings about race-based affirmative action. 

Actually, it's not sarcastic.  I was trying to get to a somewhat legitimate point about how AA's problems with appropriating others' problems to gain an edge in admissions can start at the individual psychological level.

Okay, I don't really know what this means, but I do know that the question you asked was about whether she worked 40 hours a week as a 12-year-old, right?  What on earth does that have to do with "appropriating others' problems" or with affirmative action in general?

First, black people of all class backgrounds face racism.  (But you know that, right?  Because I'm just not interested in having that argument.)  Second, she said her family was not always rich.  Do all people who aren't rich make their children work 40 hours a week, in contravention of our labor laws and human rights obligations? She doesn't need to have worked 40 hours a week to have experienced poverty or working poverty or lower-middle-classdom or middle-classdom or whatever, right?  Your question seems bizarre to me. 

Also, we all know that the accepted rationale for affirmative action in law school admissions is the diversity of the profession and not remedying disadvantage.  So really, why does this matter at all?

***

Quote
Also, I'm sick of all of you calling Petitschoque an idiot and questioning her ability to succeed in law school based upon her arrogance and possible bigotry.  Plenty of incredibly arrogant bigots do just fine in law school.  And I honestly wonder whether you would say these things the way you have been if she were white.

It's not a question of arrogance and possible bigotry: it's a question of having to rely on taking quotes out of context in order to create strawmen. 

I think the post at Barely Legal (http://barelylegalblog.blogspot.com/2006/05/bad-reason-for-attending-law-school-10.html) on the difference between arguing and arguments lays it out really nicely.  (I've heard the same thing about law school from other sources, just not nearly as elqouently.)

[sanctimony]
Hm. Okay.  I don't think this makes her an "idiot," as you and others have been calling her.

Also, Lily, this is going to sound mean, but I don't know how to avoid saying it since we are on the topic of methods of argumentation.  I think you are very smart and interesting, but you will probably find in the next few years that your tendency toward ad hominems and your generally captious manner will not serve you well, whether in meeting nice vegan boys or in getting through your 1L classes.  Sometimes getting through life just takes a deep breath and a bit of humility. [/sanctimony]
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2006, 10:31:56 PM
Since when do "frat" boys engage in homoerotic bondage?  I thought we rape black strippers and roofie sorority girls?  You need to get your story straight.

No, no, you act out in these ways precisely because of your anguish about repressing your homoerotic desires, see?

Also, it amazes me the way most conservatives can't see past the term "liberal" for people who oppose them.

I guess demonizing the Greek system (which represents the old conservative establishment) is in style nowadays. 

Well, I am rather enjoying this discussion, but I was joking.  I don't even really believe in repression, for one.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2006, 10:37:08 PM
Since when do "frat" boys engage in homoerotic bondage?  I thought we rape black strippers and roofie sorority girls?  You need to get your story straight.

No, no, you act out in these ways precisely because of your anguish about repressing your homoerotic desires, see?

Also, it amazes me the way most conservatives can't see past the term "liberal" for people who oppose them.

I guess demonizing the Greek system (which represents the old conservative establishment) is in style nowadays. 

Well, I am rather enjoying this discussion, but I was joking.  I don't even really believe in repression, for one.

Eh, yours is one of the dominant positions regarding the extreme overrepresentation of fraternity members in gang rape.  Peggy Reeves Sanday wrote a great work describing that frat boys really do love each other and in order to express it, they gang rape women, as it wouldn't be appropriate to show sexual affection any other way.  You weren't just going out on a limb there.

Everybody thinks I'm daft tonight!
Do you really think I don't know this?  I was a queer theory-girl (not a queer-theory girl) in the heady days of the early 1990s!  We practically invented the concept of homosociality!
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: John Galt on May 09, 2006, 10:37:30 PM
Since when do "frat" boys engage in homoerotic bondage?  I thought we rape black strippers and roofie sorority girls?  You need to get your story straight.

No, no, you act out in these ways precisely because of your anguish about repressing your homoerotic desires, see?

Also, it amazes me the way most conservatives can't see past the term "liberal" for people who oppose them.

I guess demonizing the Greek system (which represents the old conservative establishment) is in style nowadays. 

Well, you'll be happy to know that I helped kick KapSig off my undergrad campus.  These roots go deep big guy.

I, for one, fully support the Greek system.  It makes it way easier to recognize and write off the morons if they wear it in three letters across their chest.

Why is it acceptable to say this, but not acceptable to say that most blacks are violent uneducated criminals?  Either stereotyping is right, in all cases, or wrong, in all cases. 

You're qualified for CLS, huh?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 09, 2006, 11:04:43 PM
http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,62213.msg1315312/topicseen.html#new
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 09, 2006, 11:48:43 PM
of course, intelligence is not always a substitute for common sense.  being incredibly bright doesn't necessarily make you a better leader.
Neither does being functionally retarded.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Kittyl30 on May 09, 2006, 11:56:50 PM
god has this thread gone off a million tangents
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 09, 2006, 11:57:36 PM
Well the original thread topic wasn't so great either.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Kittyl30 on May 09, 2006, 11:59:19 PM
yeah i found it actually to be a bit offensive..and im not a URM either
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: coquita on May 10, 2006, 12:09:35 AM
first of all my aunt was functionally retarded...and she was more articulate than Bush has ever been. and i am dead serious.

second of all, this thread has seriously been hijacked. i'm disappointed that both sides had to resort to name calling rather than sticking to an intellectual debate.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 10, 2006, 12:11:30 AM
I don't think the theme of the thread lends itself to intellectual debate.
However, I agree that people on both sides have gotten a little out of control.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Kittyl30 on May 10, 2006, 12:19:10 AM
its like that rule: three things not to talk about on the first date

b/c people are so opinionated:

-religion
-politics
-past sex history


i think they should add "affirmative action" to taht list
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 10, 2006, 01:31:52 AM
Quick, look over there!

And yes, if my lips are moving, or my fingers are typing, odds are you shouldn't take what I say seriously.  Ever.

how would i know your fingers are typing?  i don't have a camera in your flat.
Uhuh. Sure you don't.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: SCgrad on May 10, 2006, 01:36:45 AM
I would like to point out that i was the first person, before it was so hip, to tell petitdeleter to go @#!* herself.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 10, 2006, 01:43:29 AM
In addition to not liking whities, she for some reason also hates mixed people.
Even though I think she's engaged to a white guy ??? I don't know. It's way too confusing for me.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: SCgrad on May 10, 2006, 01:54:28 AM
I would like to point out that i was the first person, before it was so hip, to tell petitdeleter to go @#!* herself.

i never told her to go @#!* herself.  but it is entertaining that she thinks she's someone significant.

i hope she is just a troll and this is all a show.  look at posters like breadboy and bluewarrior, sure they say lots of stupid stuff, but they at least appear to be trying to make sense, however misguided they are.  she was not quite as bad before (never great), but this thread, well, I think she was trying to jump the shark and fell in.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 10, 2006, 07:35:33 AM
Either stereotyping is right, in all cases, or wrong, in all cases. 

Do you really believe that this is how things work?

(I know you don't want to seem like you made a mistake here, so give it a minute.)

Ok, so after thinking about it, is this right?


Right wasn't the correct word.  Substitute justified. 

You think the problem with your original statement is the difference between right aand justified?  How about the fallacy of false dichotomy?

You can't even imagine a world in which there are situations in which stereotyping is justified and situations in which it is not?

This is true of (arguably) any action.  Stealing is always wrong.  Unless of course you are stealing from a theif who stole your *&^% in the first place.  Abortion is always wrong.  Unless of course the baby is in the womb of an 11 year old girl who was viciously raped by her father.  Lying is always wrong.  Unless of course by lying you could save 1 billion lives and harm no one.

Don't quibble with the specifics of the examples.  The point is that the always/never justified dichotomy is, in the case of stereotyping as in the case of many (all?) other actions)  ridiculous.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 10, 2006, 07:41:11 AM
Either stereotyping is right, in all cases, or wrong, in all cases. 

Do you really believe that this is how things work?

(I know you don't want to seem like you made a mistake here, so give it a minute.)

Ok, so after thinking about it, is this right?


Right wasn't the correct word.  Substitute justified. 

You think the problem with your original statement is the difference between right aand justified?  How about the fallacy of false dichotomy?

You can't even imagine a world in which there are situations in which stereotyping is justified and situations in which it is not?

This is true of (arguably) any action.  Stealing is always wrong.  Unless of course you are stealing from a theif who stole your *&^% in the first place.  Abortion is always wrong.  Unless of course the baby is in the womb of an 11 year old girl who was viciously raped by her father.  Lying is always wrong.  Unless of course by lying you could save 1 billion lives and harm no one.

Don't quibble with the specifics of the examples.  The point is that the always/never justified dichotomy is, in the case of stereotyping as in the case of many (all?) other actions)  ridiculous.

No, I don't think stereotyping is on the same level as the others you listed. 

It's not about the examples, it's about false dichotomy in general.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 10, 2006, 07:42:07 AM
Further, I'm very interested to know what is so special about stereotyping that makes it not susceptible to this kind of argument.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 10, 2006, 08:00:17 AM
Further, I'm very interested to know what is so special about stereotyping that makes it not susceptible to this kind of argument.

Because as you said, killing can be justified or morally unjustified depending on the circumstances.  I don't see an instance where stereotyping is legitimate, assuming that it is bad in general. 

This seems like such a strange argument for someone as obviously clever as you to make.  So killing is not "bad in general" but stereotyping is?  For one, stereotyping -- making an oversimplified opinion or judgment, usually based on an overly limited set of characteristics -- seems like a much more neutral activity than killing.  Yes, it's always bad in the sense that a stereotype is, by definition, reductive, but by that analysis, all logical fallacies are always bad -- unjustifiable or wrong, in your terms.  Further, isn't there a harm analysis here?  I'm the first one to argue that certain racial stereotypes have important real-world consequences (for instance, I'm currently reading an article titled "Looking Deathworthy: Perceived Stereotypicality of Black Defendants Predicts Capital-Sentencing Outcomes"), but killing is killing.  Dead is dead.  Come on!

Stereotyping is much more analogous to another fallacy, like an ad hominem attack, in that it is not the best form of discourse, and it may be truly damaging or assaultive, but it could also be funny or true or justified, depending on the circumstances.  
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 10, 2006, 08:05:44 AM
Further, I'm very interested to know what is so special about stereotyping that makes it not susceptible to this kind of argument.

Because as you said, killing can be justified or morally unjustified depending on the circumstances.  I don't see an instance where stereotyping is legitimate, assuming that it is bad in general. 

This seems like such a strange argument for someone as obviously clever as you to make.  So killing is not "bad in general" but stereotyping is?  For one, stereotyping -- making an oversimplified opinion or judgment, usually based on an overly limited set of characteristics -- seems like a much more neutral activity than killing.  Yes, it's always bad in the sense that a stereotype is, by definition, reductive, but by that analysis, all logical fallacies are always bad -- unjustifiable or wrong, in your terms.  Further, isn't there a harm analysis here?  I'm the first one to argue that certain racial stereotypes have important real-world consequences (for instance, I'm currently reading an article titled "Looking Deathworthy: Perceived Stereotypicality of Black Defendants Predicts Capital-Sentencing Outcomes"), but killing is killing.  Dead is dead.  Come on!

Stereotyping is much more analogous to another fallacy, like an ad hominem attack, in that it is not the best form of discourse, and it may be truly damaging or assaultive, but it could also be funny or true or justified, depending on the circumstances. 

No, killing is not bad in general.  Murder is wrong.  A state sanctioned death penalty, a shooting in self defense, and combat casualties are all killings, but are not wrong. 

Okay, while I would dispute some of your examples, I can accept these terms.  What surprises me is that you can make these distinctions among different kinds of homicides, but you can't do so among different kinds of stereotypes.  On these terms, I don't think stereotyping is "bad in general."  It may be silly, but it is not bad in a meaningful moral sense.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 10, 2006, 08:48:22 AM
I know this thread isn't about Affirmative Action or anything, but I just wanted to share this appalling article I read!
They gave some Mexican girl a scholarship to college. I can't even believe it! Then they had to hide this obviously raced-based freebie with some b.s. about "overcoming adversity."

http://www.insidebayarea.com/sanmateocountytimes/ci_3649093

Next thing you know she'll be trying to go to law school.
 :P

Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 10, 2006, 08:51:11 AM
I know this thread isn't about Affirmative Action or anything, but I just wanted to share this appalling article I read!
They gave some Mexican girl a scholarship to college. I can't even believe it! Then they had to hide this obviously raced-based freebie with some b.s. about "overcoming adversity."

http://www.insidebayarea.com/sanmateocountytimes/ci_3649093

Next thing you know she'll be trying to go to law school.
 :P

It's as if they actually want people like that to go to college and stuff!  What gives?!
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 10, 2006, 09:20:07 AM
I think the post at Barely Legal (http://barelylegalblog.blogspot.com/2006/05/bad-reason-for-attending-law-school-10.html) on the difference between arguing and arguments lays it out really nicely.  (I've heard the same thing about law school from other sources, just not nearly as elqouently.)

I've just had the chance to read this (blogspot wasn't working on my computer for whatever reason last night).  I think it's rather silly.  I understand the distinction between being argumentative and making good arguments, but this is patently false:

Quote from: Barely Legal (not the exciting kind)
Unfortunately, the ability to make a good argument and the enjoyment of arguing for the sake of arguing are mutually exclusive traits. Those who enjoy arguing cannot be objective about it. They invest a personal stake in the argument, whether its ideology, or more often, pride. Instead of being able to objectively look at both sides of a situation and form a strategy for arguing either one, those who like to argue pick one side and will defend it to the death, no matter how inane or off base their points become.

First, there are plenty of people who enjoy arguing who are very good at it.  At times, I would even include you on this list, Lily.  Yes, some people get caught in certain traps (clever red herrings, ad hominem attacks, false dichotomies, etc.) and worry too much about rhetorical flourish, but some people who enjoy arguing actually use the opportunity to hone their skills.

Second, there is a ridiculous slippage here between "enjoying arguing"/being argumentative and "having a personal stake in the argument" or not being "objective."  Since when is having a position or fighting for something in which you deeply believe a fault?  I work at a major civil rights organization, and all of the attorneys here care deeply about the issues our work addresses.  I think, if anything, this has inspired them to be creative in developing their strategies and arguments; it certainly forces them to craft their arguments with exacting attention to detail because they so well understand the stakes.  They are all excellent advocates, and very successful in a legal climate that is hostile to our claims.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: redemption on May 10, 2006, 10:04:22 AM
Of course.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 10, 2006, 10:21:04 AM
I know this thread isn't about Affirmative Action or anything, but I just wanted to share this appalling article I read!
They gave some Mexican girl a scholarship to college. I can't even believe it! Then they had to hide this obviously raced-based freebie with some b.s. about "overcoming adversity."

http://www.insidebayarea.com/sanmateocountytimes/ci_3649093

Next thing you know she'll be trying to go to law school.
 :P

It's as if they actually want people like that to go to college and stuff!  What gives?!

For each one of them, there are a hundred prep school kids like these.  Besides those aren't top schools...


http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/nation/14351735.htm

But I'm a racist,
they probably need help because of people like me... and for all the injustices they faced growing up...


Yes, it's so awful encouraging minorities to achieve.  It makes me sick.  And where is the evidence that only rich prep kids are going to college? Or, law school? 
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 10, 2006, 10:33:35 AM

Quote from: Barely Legal (not the exciting kind)
Unfortunately, the ability to make a good argument and the enjoyment of arguing for the sake of arguing are mutually exclusive traits.

Isn't this itself a false dichotomy fallacy?

Ask Googler.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Petitschoque on May 10, 2006, 05:46:14 PM
Am I the only one here with a demanding job that often requires my full attention?

Quote from: Daveman
Petitschoque, see what you're doing here? You're a uniter.

I know. I don't even do it deliberately but I just have the kind of rare charisma that inspires the average sheep to be more like me, and thereby better himself. Uniting people is the least of my considerable talents.

Quote from: Lily
I'm not going to be mad when I see your username; I'm just going to think you're an idiot.

I'm also going to think that people who want class-based AA to ENTIRELY replace race-based AA are correct.  Thank you for showing me the error of my ways


Oh dear. I hope this too isn't taken as anti-semitic but how can I bridge the gulf of understanding between you and I? I'm a bit...um, how do I put it...tender-hearted? Meaning that I can't abide the attention of people as particularly ugly as you have explained you are, for very long. You're no longer amusing (physically stunted, shrewish, big-mouthed toads tend not to be). So all this prattle about how or what you might "think" after our exchange is rather baffling to me. I just can't imagine where the notion that I would care came from. Is it something I've unwittingly done? I'm not trying to be mean. I just want to understand.

Quote from: dbgirl
In addition to not liking whities, she for some reason also hates mixed people.

Clever DBGirl. Try as I might, I never could hide my secret bigotry from you.

So far I hate all jews, "whities," and "mixed" people. How about asians? Should I pick someone asian to dislike so you can have "evidence" that I hate the whole race too? I'm quite sure I hate all black people. Are you sure I'm not impersonating a black person to fulfill my diabolical plan to get the hated black race in trouble with the Important People here? And women. I hate women. I was quite unkind to Lily and she's a woman. Yes, I've outed myself as a misogynist.

---------

Miss P, you're reading my username as if it's French. It's not.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: redemption on May 10, 2006, 07:39:12 PM
Petitschoque: I don't get what you're doing. Not that you should care, of course, what I think, but your Habesha is showing.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: redemption on May 10, 2006, 07:41:53 PM

Yes, because if it were a poor a white with remotely similar experiences, then, nooooooooo, we can't give them special treatment, their over-represented!  They don't deserve no AA, even if they grew up in the same neighborhood, attended the same school, and overcame the same barriers. 

Instead, let's pick out the handful of cases where somebody gets in who should have some sort of hardship benefit, and forget that the others who get in with AA are just like their white peers.  Well, their white peers a few branches down the educational system that is. 

As for you. Do shut up, will you? This thread's for grown-ups. If we want this kind of post we'll read bumper-stickers while we're commuting. Read a book or something. Wipe the drool from your chin.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: redemption on May 10, 2006, 07:45:20 PM

to be difficult, i'm going to point out that you do not, in fact, commute.  ;)

I do for coffee.  ::)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 10, 2006, 08:31:26 PM
Miss P, you're reading my username as if it's French. It's not.

Yes, I suppose I must sound terribly ethnocentric.  AFAIK, it's not kreyol either (I speak a bit).  And you are Ethiopian and Nigerian, if I recall.  (Obviously, red. is indicating I have the first part of this right.)  But it doesn't look like Yoruba, English, etc. 

Hmm.  While I'm not pleased that you won't just answer my questions more directly, I suppose I wouldn't tell you why I am "Miss P" either.  And no, it's not for particular, prying, persnickety, phlegmatic...
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 10, 2006, 08:38:51 PM
If for no other reason, I am thankful for this thread because it shows that stupidity is colorblind.

not necessarily true.  i don't think we've had any stupid hispanic people in here yet.  or stupid indian people.  or stupid arabs.  conceivably, these groups might all be intelligent.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 10, 2006, 08:47:22 PM
[REDACTED, but just so you know SW wasn't talking to himself.]
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 10, 2006, 08:49:02 PM
very well.  ;)

I knew you'd understand, SW.  As a matter of fact, I'm deleting that, if you don't mind.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 10, 2006, 08:51:12 PM
You're awesome.  But I'm happy with this resolution.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 10, 2006, 09:42:32 PM
CLS is the crappy.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 10, 2006, 09:55:50 PM
CLS is the crappy.

i will hurt you later.

anyone notice that anytime donnie and i are both in the same thread, it becomes a CLS v. NYU thread?  :D  :-[

I was thinking about transferring to CLS to take a class with Waldron. Oh wait...
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: John Galt on May 10, 2006, 09:55:57 PM
CLS is the crappy.

i will hurt you later.

anyone notice that anytime donnie and i are both in the same thread, it becomes a CLS v. NYU thread?  :D  :-[

Is there really anything different between the two? Its like arguing over Dasani and aquafina. Its the same damn thing.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: John Galt on May 10, 2006, 09:58:58 PM
CLS is the crappy.

i will hurt you later.

anyone notice that anytime donnie and i are both in the same thread, it becomes a CLS v. NYU thread?  :D  :-[

Is there really anything different between the two? Its like arguing over Dasani and aquafina. Its the same damn thing.

wait, i thought aquafinaisbetter?

bass- i know where you'll be in the fall, and i know what you look like.  >:(

Sorry stan. In my example, aquafina = NYU
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: johnnydavis on May 10, 2006, 10:00:53 PM
Damn, what's eating Petitschoque???

Petitschoque,  I do not know where you get your confidence from, but it's stunning how you fail to grasp the concept behind coherent and logical arguments.  You frequently demand others to reread your posts, but you are the one who is missing the gist of their arguments. Many of your comments, as perfect as you think they are, are not very convincing, and your arrogant tone has a lot to do with it.

I wonder what your father would think about all the comments you made on this thread.  I do not doubt his ability as a doctor, but if he agrees with everything you have said, that's a shame.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: H4CS on May 10, 2006, 10:01:16 PM
bass- i know where you'll be in the fall, and i know what you look like.  >:(

Bass, I run a protection service if you're interested.  I also run an extortion service.  You don't really have a say about that one.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: John Galt on May 10, 2006, 10:02:06 PM
bass- i know where you'll be in the fall, and i know what you look like.  >:(

Bass, I run a protection service if you're interested.  I also run an extortion service.  You don't really have a say about that one.

isn't bass like 8ft tall?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: John Galt on May 10, 2006, 10:04:52 PM
well if you go after bass, SW,... I got your back.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: H4CS on May 10, 2006, 10:05:56 PM
well if you go after bass, SW,... I got your back.

Oh it's so on.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: H4CS on May 10, 2006, 10:07:27 PM
well if you go after bass, SW,... I got your back.

I wouldn't let any fan of Kobe Bryant get my back.  They'd probably just talk smugly about my adversary and hope they go away.

Big words from a man with an identity crisis.  What was wrong with Johnny Deafcoat?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: John Galt on May 10, 2006, 10:08:49 PM
well if you go after bass, SW,... I got your back.

I wouldn't let any fan of Kobe Bryant get my back.  They'd probably just talk smugly about my adversary and hope they go away.

That works out perfectly since I'd never get your back :D
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: John Galt on May 10, 2006, 10:22:01 PM
well if you go after bass, SW,... I got your back.

i notice that bass has fled the scene.

Hey Bass, come back, I got your back.

i wouldn't find this reassuring.

Credited. Bass knows whats up.

Bass had some not so nice things to say about my future school. Plus I like having stan as an ally. mwuahaha.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 10, 2006, 10:37:21 PM
With H4CS and Alec. I can handle any comers from arguably the best school in Harlem.  I've got nothing against JG's school, except that, if CLS were to close, it would take over CLS's title as the crappy.

Bring it.

(note, since I'm 9 feet tall, I am a force to be reckoned with.  That's right, all ten feet of me.)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: John Galt on May 10, 2006, 10:41:03 PM
hahaha, awesome. What the hell is that in your avatar, bass? A penguin with an easter egg basket?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 10, 2006, 10:41:40 PM
hahaha, awesome. What the hell is that in your avatar, bass?

self pic.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: John Galt on May 10, 2006, 10:42:41 PM
hahaha, awesome. What the hell is that in your avatar, bass?

self pic.

hahahah, indeed. In all seriousness, that is the best tar i've seen in a while (sucking up as I only accounted for you being 8ft tall...)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 10, 2006, 10:44:32 PM
hahaha, awesome. What the hell is that in your avatar, bass?

self pic.

hahahah, indeed. In all seriousness, that is the best tar i've seen in a while (sucking up as I only accounted for you being 8ft tall...)

I stole it off a website in the cool links thread.  It's fun with photoshop.  A penguin with a basket of easter eggs in a bunny costume.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Towlie on May 10, 2006, 10:44:54 PM
Okay, this is completely off topic (well actually ON topic) and may have been mentioned before, but has anyone seen that Curb Your Enthusiasm where Larry David makes an AA comment when he sees Richard Lewis has a black doctor?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 10, 2006, 10:46:12 PM
no
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Towlie on May 10, 2006, 10:48:16 PM
no

It was classic Larry David.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 10, 2006, 10:49:03 PM
To be fair, I've never seen a single episode of that show.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Towlie on May 10, 2006, 10:50:31 PM
To be fair, I've never seen a single episode of that show.

You're missing out. It's hilarious.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 10, 2006, 10:53:10 PM
To be fair, I've never seen a single episode of that show.

You're missing out. It's hilarious.

No doubt, but I only have bunny ears, no cable.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: John Galt on May 10, 2006, 11:20:42 PM
we've got this, SW. You gotta watch that googler dude though. I don't quite trust him.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: John Galt on May 10, 2006, 11:30:26 PM
we've got this, SW. You gotta watch that googler dude though. I don't quite trust him.

no worries about googler, we have an understanding.  i just worry that donnie and bass will do something underhanded.  and they have yalecollege, and i KNOW he'll fight dirty.

good point. I'll try to plug for UG pride with YC. I'm off to bed, gentlemen. I'm a wuss and need five hours of sleep.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: H4CS on May 10, 2006, 11:41:50 PM
we've got this, SW. You gotta watch that googler dude though. I don't quite trust him.

no worries about googler, we have an understanding.  i just worry that donnie and bass will do something underhanded.  and they have yalecollege, and i KNOW he'll fight dirty.

good point. I'll try to plug for UG pride with YC. I'm off to bed, gentlemen. I'm a wuss and need five hours of sleep.

We'll trade him for a player to be named later. You know what?  You can just have him.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 11, 2006, 02:03:03 AM
I'm not going to be mad when I see your username; I'm just going to think you're an idiot.

I'm also going to think that people who want class-based AA to ENTIRELY replace race-based AA are correct.  Thank you for showing me the error of my ways.

I don't get why Petitschoque's impolitic approach to this thread or her refusal to indulge your (sarcastic) question about her family's financial history should have any bearing on your feelings about race-based affirmative action. 

Actually, it's not sarcastic.  I was trying to get to a somewhat legitimate point about how AA's problems with appropriating others' problems to gain an edge in admissions can start at the individual psychological level.

Okay, I don't really know what this means, but I do know that the question you asked was about whether she worked 40 hours a week as a 12-year-old, right?  What on earth does that have to do with "appropriating others' problems" or with affirmative action in general?

Let me try to put it another way.  A legitimate concern with AA is that it's not helping those who really need to be helped.  A lot of anti-AA individuals criticize the specific blacks and latinos who take advantage of it for simply being selfish, and I'm not sure that's quite true in the individual's psyche.

Quote
First, black people of all class backgrounds face racism.  (But you know that, right?  Because I'm just not interested in having that argument.)

I'm not doubting that.  However, I'm not sure AA is exclusively about racism.  If it were, Asians would still be entitled to it.

Quote
Second, she said her family was not always rich.  Do all people who aren't rich make their children work 40 hours a week, in contravention of our labor laws and human rights obligations? She doesn't need to have worked 40 hours a week to have experienced poverty or working poverty or lower-middle-classdom or middle-classdom or whatever, right?  Your question seems bizarre to me. 

I think you're misunderstanding my point: I'm not saying that she wouldn't have felt the impact of being poor. My point is about how her word choice reflects perceptions.

Quote
Also, we all know that the accepted rationale for affirmative action in law school admissions is the diversity of the profession and not remedying disadvantage.  So really, why does this matter at all?

Who's defining "accepted rationale"?  I don't follow AA debates in the media as closely as I do other issues, but I've frequently seen it justified by AA supporters as being necessary to remedying disadvantage.  I've also frequently seen the idea that it's necessary to produce lawyers who are sensitive to people coming from disadvantaged backgrounds. 

Quote
Also, I'm sick of all of you calling Petitschoque an idiot and questioning her ability to succeed in law school based upon her arrogance and possible bigotry.  Plenty of incredibly arrogant bigots do just fine in law school.  And I honestly wonder whether you would say these things the way you have been if she were white.

It's not a question of arrogance and possible bigotry: it's a question of having to rely on taking quotes out of context in order to create strawmen. 

I think the post at Barely Legal (http://barelylegalblog.blogspot.com/2006/05/bad-reason-for-attending-law-school-10.html) on the difference between arguing and arguments lays it out really nicely.  (I've heard the same thing about law school from other sources, just not nearly as elqouently.)

[sanctimony]
Hm. Okay.  I don't think this makes her an "idiot," as you and others have been calling her.

Also, Lily, this is going to sound mean, but I don't know how to avoid saying it since we are on the topic of methods of argumentation.  I think you are very smart and interesting, but you will probably find in the next few years that your tendency toward ad hominems and your generally captious manner will not serve you well, whether in meeting nice vegan boys or in getting through your 1L classes.  Sometimes getting through life just takes a deep breath and a bit of humility. [/sanctimony][/quote]

Read my back posts: I only use ad homs in very specific situations (i.e., where the person has been notified multiple times of the inadequacy of that approach).  The only reason why I use them at all is to make it absolutely clear that yes, I do have a backbones, and yes, I will stand up for myself.

After all, in the real world, you don't get very far if you don't.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 11, 2006, 03:15:18 AM
my gripe with your arguing style is that your posts are always so super long (i'm lazy).  :)

Fair enough.  FWIW, they're long I'm also lazy: I hate going back to previous posts to look up the original contexts.

Ok, that's a lie.  They're long because I'm so lazy that I don't feel like actively cutting out the previous quotes. ;)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 11, 2006, 03:20:46 AM
my gripe with your arguing style is that your posts are always so super long (i'm lazy).  :)

Fair enough.  FWIW, they're long I'm also lazy: I hate going back to previous posts to look up the original contexts.

Ok, that's a lie.  They're long because I'm so lazy that I don't feel like actively cutting out the previous quotes. ;)

EXACTLY!  i have no idea whom you're quoting most of the time.

meh, this is why i don't get into serious discussions.  too much work.

You're so not old school.  Back when I was a kid, I used my DOS system to hop online local BBSes.  All of the quotes were arrows, and when they got long, textwrapping made it even MORE confusing.

So stop whining; you have it made O Tech-Spoiled One. :P ;)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: SouthSide on May 11, 2006, 03:21:45 AM
Ah, hell.  I was going to break out the Cooley rankings to show how Harvard and NYU were 1,2 respectively.

But then I saw the new Cooley rankings.

1. Boalt
2. Columbia
3. U of Minnesota
4. Harvard
5. NYU
6. University of Iowa
7. University of Texas
8. Ohio State University
9. University of Michigan
10. Southern University
11. University of California Hastings
12. Georgetown University
13. Northwestern University
14. Yale University
15. University of Illinois
16. University of Virginia
17. University of Washington
18. University of Florida
19. University of New Mexico
20. Louisiana State University
 
What a ridiculous list.  NYU over Yale, I could see.  Chicago, Duke, Penn, Stanford unranked, I can deal with.  But Columbia over NYU?!!?  Blasphemy!

Wait a minute ... Cooley doesn't make their own top 20? That's embarrassing. I'd like to think that if I were designing a rankings system to make myself look better, I would at least show up somewhere near the top. (Also, I love that Yale isn't in the top 20. There's some truth to that....)

Edmonton 3, San Jose 2.  Triple overtime, Horcoff scored in the 103rd minute of the game.

Those racists kicked the one black guy out of the game with a game misconduct.  Discrimination!

Did you see the game where San Jose was on the wrong end of a 5-on-3, plus two guys lost their sticks, and they still kept Edmonton from scoring? It was unbelievable!
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: SouthSide on May 11, 2006, 03:23:53 AM
D'oh!

In my defense, it's 5 in the morning. I would edit, but you caught me already.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: SouthSide on May 11, 2006, 03:39:58 AM
That doesn't bode well for my law school success. Uh-oh, maybe I've been in the real world for too long.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: SCgrad on May 11, 2006, 06:06:24 AM
Ah, hell.  I was going to break out the Cooley rankings to show how Harvard and NYU were 1,2 respectively.

But then I saw the new Cooley rankings.

1. Boalt
2. Columbia
3. U of Minnesota
4. Harvard
5. NYU
6. University of Iowa
7. University of Texas
8. Ohio State University
9. University of Michigan
10. Southern University
11. University of California Hastings
12. Georgetown University
13. Northwestern University
14. Yale University
15. University of Illinois
16. University of Virginia
17. University of Washington
18. University of Florida
19. University of New Mexico
20. Louisiana State University
 
What a ridiculous list.  NYU over Yale, I could see.  Chicago, Duke, Penn, Stanford unranked, I can deal with.  But Columbia over NYU?!!?  Blasphemy!

Wait a minute ... Cooley doesn't make their own top 20? That's embarrassing. I'd like to think that if I were designing a rankings system to make myself look better, I would at least show up somewhere near the top. (Also, I love that Yale isn't in the top 20. There's some truth to that....)

Edmonton 3, San Jose 2.  Triple overtime, Horcoff scored in the 103rd minute of the game.

Those racists kicked the one black guy out of the game with a game misconduct.  Discrimination!

Did you see the game where San Jose was on the wrong end of a 5-on-3, plus two guys lost their sticks, and they still kept Edmonton from scoring? It was unbelievable!

i think this is the old one.  they were 24th and bumped all the way to 18th this year, at least according to an earlier thread. 
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 11, 2006, 09:12:53 AM
I'll get back to the other stuff later. 

Quote from: Miss P
[sanctimony] Also, Lily, this is going to sound mean, but I don't know how to avoid saying it since we are on the topic of methods of argumentation.  I think you are very smart and interesting, but you will probably find in the next few years that your tendency toward ad hominems and your generally captious manner will not serve you well, whether in meeting nice vegan boys or in getting through your 1L classes.  Sometimes getting through life just takes a deep breath and a bit of humility. [/sanctimony]

Read my back posts: I only use ad homs in very specific situations (i.e., where the person has been notified multiple times of the inadequacy of that approach).  The only reason why I use them at all is to make it absolutely clear that yes, I do have a backbones, and yes, I will stand up for myself.

After all, in the real world, you don't get very far if you don't.

1. I think you're right that it's important to stand up for yourself, and I'm glad that you do. But the one calling names usually ends up looking as if she can't win the argument any other way.  You are blessed with wits enough to focus on the arguments at hand; don't be afraid of relying on them.  (You'll find that I also stand up for myself, yet I very seldom call people names or insult their intelligence.  And I'm not even a particularly sharp tack!)

2. Well, I can't be bothered to check out all 5K this afternoon, but I do read your posts.  From what I read in people's silly responses, I think that I am one of the few who spends the time to read them carefully.  This is what has me concerned.  I think you are getting deeper and deeper into a defensive rut.  I've seen you jump on people in really harsh ways, apparently unprovoked, at least within the thread.  (My ability to have an intertextual approach to this question is limited by my interest in only a handful of threads, so I could be wrong.)  In any case, I preferred the confident poster I remember from a few months ago.  Not that my preference should mean a lot to you, but I have always been more on your side than against you.

3. Your response here does not contain any ad homs, but it is still needlessly arrogant, and it turns me off.  Do you really "notif[y people] multiple times of the inadequacy of [their] approach[es]"?  Come on!  If your arguments were that good, and if their approaches were really so inadequate, then why didn't you make that point well once or twice and move on?  It's true, some people will never learn.  By shouting at them that they are ignorant and bigoted, you just look less open-minded and sympathetic.

Finally, I should add that I understand that my public discussion of your posting style puts you in an awkward position, and I am sorry about that.  If you'd prefer me to delete out these posts, just let me know, and I'll be happy to do so.  Meanwhile, please know that I am only trying to pass along this advice because I like you and I don't want you to be further marginalized by something as silly as a few rude words stuck in otherwise estimable arguments.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 11, 2006, 12:33:31 PM
I'm also going to think that people who want class-based AA to ENTIRELY replace race-based AA are correct.  Thank you for showing me the error of my ways.

I don't get why Petitschoque's impolitic approach to this thread or her refusal to indulge your (sarcastic) question about her family's financial history should have any bearing on your feelings about race-based affirmative action. 

Actually, it's not sarcastic.  I was trying to get to a somewhat legitimate point about how AA's problems with appropriating others' problems to gain an edge in admissions can start at the individual psychological level.

Okay, I don't really know what this means, but I do know that the question you asked was about whether she worked 40 hours a week as a 12-year-old, right?  What on earth does that have to do with "appropriating others' problems" or with affirmative action in general?

Let me try to put it another way.  A legitimate concern with AA is that it's not helping those who really need to be helped.  A lot of anti-AA individuals criticize the specific blacks and latinos who take advantage of it for simply being selfish, and I'm not sure that's quite true in the individual's psyche.

I think we're talking about a lot of separate things, and I'd like to untangle them:

1. I still think your question was very strange, and I understand why it prompted such a bitter response from Petitschoque.  If your concern is that the daughter of professionals is improperly appropriating the economic disadvantage of the majority of people who share her skin color, why not just ask about that?  I also don't know why people think it's okay to always ask the black girl about her family's economic background or how much she suffered as if economic disadvantage were the only rationale for her admission to law school. And I'll add that Petit is obviously smart, though she surely has a hard road ahead of her if she takes nasty attitude with her through life.  No amount of disadvantage could excuse that.

2. I think, given the extreme underrepresentation of African Americans and Latinos (especially men) in the law, race-based affirmative action is helps people who need to be helped, regardless of the specific backgrounds of individual applicants.  Without AA, there would be so few URM law students at top schools.  Do you remember what happened at Boalt the year after Prop 209 and the UC regents' decision to end AA?  There was ONE African American 1L in the 250+ person class.  I don't care if the African American people who end up in that class are the lovechildren of Oprah and Robert L. Johnson, if they weren't going to get there without AA, the school needed AA and they needed the help.

3. I also think schools need a much greater emphasis on socioeconomic AA, as well as programs to make school more affordable for students with poor and working class backgrounds.  Such a program and race-based AA are not mutually exclusive or even contradictory. I think you would see a still-increased number of URM students if schools made class a larger consideration in admissions and if they focused on affordability as part of their recruitment and retention efforts.  I'd love to see this happen.

4. I don't think people "take advantage" of affirmative action any more than older applicants "take advantage" of their work experience or people with 4.0s "take advantage" of their GPAs.  (I, for one, join a lot of others around here in thinking that the LSAT is a pretty lame method of evaluation.  Should I not include my score on my application?)  All applicants merely try to put forth the best applications they can.  And I suppose people could try to whitewash their applications if they thought they didn't deserve AA consideration for some reason, but given the important role that race plays in American life, does that really make sense?  People's experiences -- from UG institution to jobs held to extracurricular activities to religion -- are shaped so much by race.  I think all of this is relevant to the admissions process. 

5. Do I understand correctly that you see middle- and upper-class URM applicants as pathologically misrecognizing their overwhelming advantages in life?  And you hope to convince them of how selfish and privileged they are in comparison to poor and working-class URM applicants?  I don't understand the point of this, really.  I also don't think it's going to work if your tactic is to ask absurd questions about their backgrounds.  Maybe try it on WASP male legacies first, and then trickle down through the demographics.  Seriously, I understand -- but do not agree with -- the argument that AA is giving a leg up to only the privileged minority applicants who would probably competitive without it, but I don't think this is the best way to get at that discussion.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 11, 2006, 12:45:45 PM
First, black people of all class backgrounds face racism.  (But you know that, right?  Because I'm just not interested in having that argument.)

I'm not doubting that.  However, I'm not sure AA is exclusively about racism.  If it were, Asians would still be entitled to it.

Quote
Second, she said her family was not always rich.  Do all people who aren't rich make their children work 40 hours a week, in contravention of our labor laws and human rights obligations? She doesn't need to have worked 40 hours a week to have experienced poverty or working poverty or lower-middle-classdom or middle-classdom or whatever, right?  Your question seems bizarre to me. 

I think you're misunderstanding my point: I'm not saying that she wouldn't have felt the impact of being poor. My point is about how her word choice reflects perceptions.

Quote
Also, we all know that the accepted rationale for affirmative action in law school admissions is the diversity of the profession and not remedying disadvantage.  So really, why does this matter at all?

Who's defining "accepted rationale"?  I don't follow AA debates in the media as closely as I do other issues, but I've frequently seen it justified by AA supporters as being necessary to remedying disadvantage.  I've also frequently seen the idea that it's necessary to produce lawyers who are sensitive to people coming from disadvantaged backgrounds. 

Sorry for the extremely long post above. Much more briefly:

No, racism is not the exclusive basis for affirmative action. But to the extent that it affects people's educational opportunities, I think it is a reasonable basis for affirmative action.  That's all I meant.

By "accepted rationale," I meant the one accepted by the Supreme Court in Grutter. That decision allowed race-based affirmative action in public law school admissions in order to ensure the diversity of the profession.  It did not allow schools to use lower scores as a remedy for past disadvantage (or at least it did not allow them to consider race itself as an index of past disadvantage).

I think present-day disadvantage, past disadvantage, and the diversity of the profession should be considerations in admission, FWIW.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: FossilJ on May 11, 2006, 02:19:12 PM
Ah, hell.  I was going to break out the Cooley rankings to show how Harvard and NYU were 1,2 respectively.

But then I saw the new Cooley rankings.

1. Boalt
2. Columbia
3. U of Minnesota
4. Harvard
5. NYU
6. University of Iowa
7. University of Texas
8. Ohio State University
9. University of Michigan
10. Southern University
11. University of California Hastings
12. Georgetown University
13. Northwestern University
14. Yale University
15. University of Illinois
16. University of Virginia
17. University of Washington
18. University of Florida
19. University of New Mexico
20. Louisiana State University
 
What a ridiculous list.  NYU over Yale, I could see.  Chicago, Duke, Penn, Stanford unranked, I can deal with.  But Columbia over NYU?!!?  Blasphemy!

Wait a minute ... Cooley doesn't make their own top 20? That's embarrassing. I'd like to think that if I were designing a rankings system to make myself look better, I would at least show up somewhere near the top. (Also, I love that Yale isn't in the top 20. There's some truth to that....)

Edmonton 3, San Jose 2.  Triple overtime, Horcoff scored in the 103rd minute of the game.

Those racists kicked the one black guy out of the game with a game misconduct.  Discrimination!

Did you see the game where San Jose was on the wrong end of a 5-on-3, plus two guys lost their sticks, and they still kept Edmonton from scoring? It was unbelievable!

Holy *&^%, I've finally got some company!


Edmonton pissed me off so badly in that game.  In both the first two games, actually.

The overtime winner last night was well-deserved.  It also screwed with my LSAT studying.  f-ing extra hour and a half!  hahahahahaha



Also, Ryan Smyth's a trooper.  Gotta love it when they scoop your teeth off the ice and you're raring to go back minutes later.

Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: FossilJ on May 11, 2006, 02:23:19 PM
Yeah, that was insane.  This game was pretty crazy too, they were playing in their own zone for almost the entire game, and Toskala still managed to take it to 3OT, and they would have won if Ehkman could pay hockey.

It wasn't Ekhman's fault.  He's just the guy who ended up looking bad because his defense partner abandoned him to play two men.  In that situation, you're up *&^% creek without a paddle.  Ekhman and Hannan were your two best defensemen in that game.

Now, if you're looking for a bad defender, just look at Jaroslav Spacek.  Holy *&^%, I've never seen anyone @#!* up so often in the playoffs.  He's cost us (directly) at least three goals, including the first goal last night, and because of his terrible positioning has indirectly led to two or three more, as well.  His +/- would be much worse if he wasn't paired with Pronger and Pisani's scoring line so often.

Thank god for Pronger.  Edmonton owe him so far these playoffs.  He's playing like three men on the ice.  Between him and Roloson, we've managed to survive. 

Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 11, 2006, 02:48:22 PM
I'm also going to think that people who want class-based AA to ENTIRELY replace race-based AA are correct.  Thank you for showing me the error of my ways.

I don't get why Petitschoque's impolitic approach to this thread or her refusal to indulge your (sarcastic) question about her family's financial history should have any bearing on your feelings about race-based affirmative action. 

Actually, it's not sarcastic.  I was trying to get to a somewhat legitimate point about how AA's problems with appropriating others' problems to gain an edge in admissions can start at the individual psychological level.

Okay, I don't really know what this means, but I do know that the question you asked was about whether she worked 40 hours a week as a 12-year-old, right?  What on earth does that have to do with "appropriating others' problems" or with affirmative action in general?

Let me try to put it another way.  A legitimate concern with AA is that it's not helping those who really need to be helped.  A lot of anti-AA individuals criticize the specific blacks and latinos who take advantage of it for simply being selfish, and I'm not sure that's quite true in the individual's psyche.

I think we're talking about a lot of separate things, and I'd like to untangle them:

1. I still think your question was very strange, and I understand why it prompted such a bitter response from Petitschoque.  If your concern is that the daughter of professionals is improperly appropriating the economic disadvantage of the majority of people who share her skin color, why not just ask about that?

I thought that's what I was asking. I apologize if it didn't sound that way; for what it's worth, I spend a lot more time thinking about my concepts than I do about the specific word choice that I finally post. :-\

Quote
  I also don't know why people think it's okay to always ask the black girl about her family's economic background or how much she suffered as if economic disadvantage were the only rationale for her admission to law school.

I didn't mean to insinuate that it's the only reason why she got in, but if someone uses their background in an argument, I'll ask about it to see whether their argument is legitimate.

Quote
And I'll add that Petit is obviously smart, though she surely has a hard road ahead of her if she takes nasty attitude with her through life.  No amount of disadvantage could excuse that.

2. I think, given the extreme underrepresentation of African Americans and Latinos (especially men) in the law, race-based affirmative action is helps people who need to be helped, regardless of the specific backgrounds of individual applicants.

This is the part I wonder about.  I've noticed that undergrad and law schools tend to be very intellectually lazy in the admissions process, at least compared to the graduate admissions programs I'm familiar with.  Even though what I'm about to say is anecdotal, I've seen that laziness reflected in the makeup of the student bodies.  In all my time in and around Penn and Princeton, I only met two minority from a truly poor background, and they both attended good private schools thanks to parental tuition benefits.  While the minorities were less affluent than whites, I couldn't find anyone from Strawberry Mansion. 

Now, I know it makes sense to hide your background at these schools, but I'm good at spotting the little things.  (Sadly, not House or Veronica Mars level, but "you speak in the passive voice a lot; are you from Kiev?" good.)

Quote
Without AA, there would be so few URM law students at top schools.  Do you remember what happened at Boalt the year after Prop 209 and the UC regents' decision to end AA?  There was ONE African American 1L in the 250+ person class.  I don't care if the African American people who end up in that class are the lovechildren of Oprah and Robert L. Johnson, if they weren't going to get there without AA, the school needed AA and they needed the help.

3. I also think schools need a much greater emphasis on socioeconomic AA, as well as programs to make school more affordable for students with poor and working class backgrounds.  Such a program and race-based AA are not mutually exclusive or even contradictory. I think you would see a still-increased number of URM students if schools made class a larger consideration in admissions and if they focused on affordability as part of their recruitment and retention efforts.  I'd love to see this happen.

4. I don't think people "take advantage" of affirmative action any more than older applicants "take advantage" of their work experience or people with 4.0s "take advantage" of their GPAs.  (I, for one, join a lot of others around here in thinking that the LSAT is a pretty lame method of evaluation.  Should I not include my score on my application?)

LSATs aren't optional -- racial notification is.

Quote
All applicants merely try to put forth the best applications they can.

My issues with Petitiscoque aside, my issue is more with the system's poorly thought-out implementation than with individuals' natural selfishness. 

Quote
And I suppose people could try to whitewash their applications if they thought they didn't deserve AA consideration for some reason, but given the important role that race plays in American life, does that really make sense?  People's experiences -- from UG institution to jobs held to extracurricular activities to religion -- are shaped so much by race.  I think all of this is relevant to the admissions process.

Quote
5. Do I understand correctly that you see middle- and upper-class URM applicants as pathologically misrecognizing their overwhelming advantages in life?  And you hope to convince them of how selfish and privileged they are in comparison to poor and working-class URM applicants?  I don't understand the point of this, really.

Not pathologically, but to some degree, yes. 

The problem is that the relationship to racism and classism is very closely intertwined but still separate, in much the same way that genetics and environmental influences on cancer are closely intertwined but still separate.  At an emotional level, it's very hard for an individual to parse out which is which -- you just tend to blame the most visible characteristic for all of the behavior.

Quote
  I also don't think it's going to work if your tactic is to ask absurd questions about their backgrounds.  Maybe try it on WASP male legacies first, and then trickle down through the demographics.  Seriously, I understand -- but do not agree with -- the argument that AA is giving a leg up to only the privileged minority applicants who would probably competitive without it, but I don't think this is the best way to get at that discussion.

I'm just trying to learn from other people's styles on the board.  I'll keep the fact that this execution didn't go over so well in mind in the future. :)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 11, 2006, 02:49:39 PM
First, black people of all class backgrounds face racism.  (But you know that, right?  Because I'm just not interested in having that argument.)

I'm not doubting that.  However, I'm not sure AA is exclusively about racism.  If it were, Asians would still be entitled to it.

Quote
Second, she said her family was not always rich.  Do all people who aren't rich make their children work 40 hours a week, in contravention of our labor laws and human rights obligations? She doesn't need to have worked 40 hours a week to have experienced poverty or working poverty or lower-middle-classdom or middle-classdom or whatever, right?  Your question seems bizarre to me. 

I think you're misunderstanding my point: I'm not saying that she wouldn't have felt the impact of being poor. My point is about how her word choice reflects perceptions.

Quote
Also, we all know that the accepted rationale for affirmative action in law school admissions is the diversity of the profession and not remedying disadvantage.  So really, why does this matter at all?

Who's defining "accepted rationale"?  I don't follow AA debates in the media as closely as I do other issues, but I've frequently seen it justified by AA supporters as being necessary to remedying disadvantage.  I've also frequently seen the idea that it's necessary to produce lawyers who are sensitive to people coming from disadvantaged backgrounds. 

Sorry for the extremely long post above. Much more briefly:

No, racism is not the exclusive basis for affirmative action. But to the extent that it affects people's educational opportunities, I think it is a reasonable basis for affirmative action.  That's all I meant.

By "accepted rationale," I meant the one accepted by the Supreme Court in Grutter. That decision allowed race-based affirmative action in public law school admissions in order to ensure the diversity of the profession.  It did not allow schools to use lower scores as a remedy for past disadvantage (or at least it did not allow them to consider race itself as an index of past disadvantage).

I think present-day disadvantage, past disadvantage, and the diversity of the profession should be considerations in admission, FWIW.

And they just thought of diversity as an end-in-itself?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: FossilJ on May 11, 2006, 04:49:45 PM
Torres has made the big plays, yeah, but without Pronger, the Joe Cheechoo Train would've eaten us alive already.  We were lucky to even be close in the first two games. 

You're right, though.  I was thinking of Ehrhoff. 

That second period pissed me off so much.  After such an amazing first period, I thought the wheels were coming off.  You guys were lucky to get away 1-0 after the first (thanks to Toskala), and then to go up 2-1 thanks to some clinical finishing and terrible defensive lapses by Spacek and (IIRC, and very surprisingly) Jason Smith was a little bit too much to stomach. 

The Oilers will need to figure out a way to solve Toskala if they want to win this series.  They're manning up on Thornton and Cheechoo beautifully, and they definitely exploited your young defensemen with their speed down the wing, but it doesn't help if you put more than 90 shots near the net (what a CRAZY statistic!) and you only score three times.  Give the Joe Cheechoo Train one good game and it's lights out, in that case.

Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: FossilJ on May 11, 2006, 05:13:42 PM
That's my point.  They've been bottled up well so far, and that's mainly thanks to an aggressive back-check and some fantastic defense.  Last night's goal was a bit of a fluke.  However, they're bound to click at least once this series, and if Edmonton can't muster some goals when it happens, they're going to get burnt, and BADLY. 

And, really, Roly doesn't deserve that sort of bull after his fish-out-of-the-water heroics over the last nine games.  Man, that guy looks clumsy, but does he ever get the job done.

Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 11, 2006, 07:46:46 PM
This is where we fundamentally differ.  I think that schools should take the most qualified applicants, based mostly on numbers and to some degree interesting life experiences (note: being a URM does not, in itself, qualify as an interesting life experience).  If this means that the whole class is comprised of Long Island Jews and Asians, so be it. 

I don't think law schools have clearly thought about what they actually want, making the numbers they rely on pretty silly.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: FossilJ on May 11, 2006, 09:09:47 PM
Roloson has been great, not heroic.  Yeah, we'll see what happens.  If Cheech gets some goals, I think we've wrapped this series up.  Without finals now I'd go to game 5.


Where can I have a class of only Asians and Long Island Jews?  That would be my dream school.  Are any of the NYC schools like that?

San Jose in 7, my friend.

And if you don't call that stop on Cheechoo last night heroic, I don't know what is.  Awkward, but heroic.

Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 11, 2006, 09:52:21 PM
This mini-thread has gotten out of hand, so I'm paring down the quoting to just answer something that I think is at the heart of it.  Forgive me if I've taken out too much, and let me know if you think I've missed something important.

This is the part I wonder about.  I've noticed that undergrad and law schools tend to be very intellectually lazy in the admissions process, at least compared to the graduate admissions programs I'm familiar with.  Even though what I'm about to say is anecdotal, I've seen that laziness reflected in the makeup of the student bodies.  In all my time in and around Penn and Princeton, I only met two minority from a truly poor background, and they both attended good private schools thanks to parental tuition benefits.  While the minorities were less affluent than whites, I couldn't find anyone from Strawberry Mansion. 

Now, I know it makes sense to hide your background at these schools, but I'm good at spotting the little things.  (Sadly, not House or Veronica Mars level, but "you speak in the passive voice a lot; are you from Kiev?" good.)

I completely agree that admissions committees are intellectually lazy.  I think it might be in part because, unlike elite liberal arts graduate programs, the study of law doesn't require any particular set of skills or interests, or a specific type of preparation, and thus you get a huge number of people applying with very few weeding characteristics and little in common with one another.  In combination with the size of most law school classes, that helps me understand why law schools end up relying on silly things like index numbers and the pedigree of certain undergraduate institutions, and much less on writing samples and recommendations and interviews and such.

That said, I just don't believe that the use of race in admissions is a particularly egregious form of this laziness.  Yes, I think it would be really great if more lower-class URM students went to law school, and I think this would happen if there were greater attention to the challenges individual applicants face -- even without a specific program of socioeconomic AA.  But I don't see URM admissions as a fixed quantity so that upper- and middle-class URM students have to be excused to make room for their poor and working class brothers and sisters. Do you?  Can't we have more rich Latinos, middle-class African Americans, and poor Native Americans at the same time? 

You know, I have a fairly rigid socialist training, and I was loath to admit it for a long time, but race really does matter.  African American and Native American and Latino and Hmong (etc.) communities need lawyers to represent them, lawyers who reflect them and who understand the specific dynamics of their racial experiences.  I work with many lawyers who represent a racial group that is different than their own, and I think that's great.  But I've also noticed how, occasionally, these lawyers don't "get" things, how sometimes folks just want to talk to someone who understands better, who looks like them, who speaks a bit of Kreyol, whatever. I think that's fair.

I also know that even upper-income African American and Latino families face huge disadvantages in life compared to their white counterparts: fewer assets, worse schools, diminshed expectations from teachers, worse healthcare, bad encounters with cops, etc., etc.  I think it's right that AA should account for these qualities in addition to family income, and race itself is an imperfect but fairly reliable index.

p.s. This is the Lily I know and love!  Astute, thoughtful, witty.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 11, 2006, 09:54:32 PM
I'm not reading any of this (never do after 2 grafs), but it's classic Lily.  Lot's of quotes and argument in really long posts.  I like it.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 11, 2006, 10:06:09 PM
[EDIT merely to pare down the absurdly long quoting]

You know, I have a fairly rigid socialist training, and I was loath to admit it for a long time, but race really does matter.  African American and Native American and Latino and Hmong (etc.) communities need lawyers to represent them, lawyers who reflect them and who understand the specific dynamics of their racial experiences.  I work with many lawyers who represent a racial group that is different than their own, and I think that's great.  But I've also noticed how, occasionally, these lawyers don't "get" things, how sometimes folks just want to talk to someone who understands better, who looks like them, who speaks a bit of Kreyol, whatever. I think that's fair.

But on the other hand, you probably think that it is racist to only want to marry/date people of your own race, or to only work with such people.  Isn't your position inconsistent?

Huh?  I don't see how either of those sentiments has anything to do with what I wrote.  But taking them one by one:

No, I think it's just fine, in general, for people to want to date within their own race (though I do not).  I do sometimes wonder how narrow into ethnic breakdowns and such one really has to get for this to make sense.   

And, while I'm not sure I'd say racist point-blank, I don't think it's okay for people to want to work with only people of their own race.  It's near impossible in this modern world, and not at all the same thing as dating and marrying.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 11, 2006, 10:12:58 PM

But on the other hand, you probably think that it is racist to only want to marry/date people of your own race, or to only work with such people.  Isn't your position inconsistent?

There's a significant difference between wanting to work with only your own race and actively pursuing a single-race workplace.  The former is usually motivated by laziness and ignorance while the latter is usually motivated by hatred.

As for only wanting to date your own race, so what?  I would hardly delude myself into thinking I'm putting down an entire race of people by choosing not to date them.

A much better response than my benedryl-addled muddle.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 11, 2006, 10:18:55 PM

But on the other hand, you probably think that it is racist to only want to marry/date people of your own race, or to only work with such people.  Isn't your position inconsistent?

There's a significant difference between wanting to work with only your own race and actively pursuing a single-race workplace.  The former is usually motivated by laziness and ignorance while the latter is usually motivated by hatred.

As for only wanting to date your own race, so what?  I would hardly delude myself into thinking I'm putting down an entire race of people by choosing not to date them.

A much better response than my benedryl-addled muddle.  Thank you.

My response made sense?  Sweet.

I thought my tequila filled bloodstream would have made my response less than coherent.

jealous
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: SouthSide on May 12, 2006, 03:42:22 AM
I'm saying Sharks in 6. It has been a phenomenal series thus far.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 12, 2006, 12:47:32 PM
This mini-thread has gotten out of hand, so I'm paring down the quoting to just answer something that I think is at the heart of it.  Forgive me if I've taken out too much, and let me know if you think I've missed something important.

This is the part I wonder about.  I've noticed that undergrad and law schools tend to be very intellectually lazy in the admissions process, at least compared to the graduate admissions programs I'm familiar with.  Even though what I'm about to say is anecdotal, I've seen that laziness reflected in the makeup of the student bodies.  In all my time in and around Penn and Princeton, I only met two minority from a truly poor background, and they both attended good private schools thanks to parental tuition benefits.  While the minorities were less affluent than whites, I couldn't find anyone from Strawberry Mansion. 

Now, I know it makes sense to hide your background at these schools, but I'm good at spotting the little things.  (Sadly, not House or Veronica Mars level, but "you speak in the passive voice a lot; are you from Kiev?" good.)

I completely agree that admissions committees are intellectually lazy.  I think it might be in part because, unlike elite liberal arts graduate programs, the study of law doesn't require any particular set of skills or interests, or a specific type of preparation, and thus you get a huge number of people applying with very few weeding characteristics and little in common with one another. In combination with the size of most law school classes

I'm not sure this really matters.  At Princeton, some departments get 1,000+ applications for eight or ten spots -- and the individual departments do the selection themselves (i.e., no admissions offices).

Quote
that helps me understand why law schools end up relying on silly things like index numbers and the pedigree of certain undergraduate institutions, and much less on writing samples and recommendations and interviews and such.

That said, I just don't believe that the use of race in admissions is a particularly egregious form of this laziness.

To be honest, I don't think it's more egregious either.  My point is mostly just that the implementation based on laziness undermines the reason for its existence.

Quote
  Yes, I think it would be really great if more lower-class URM students went to law school, and I think this would happen if there were greater attention to the challenges individual applicants face -- even without a specific program of socioeconomic AA.  But I don't see URM admissions as a fixed quantity so that upper- and middle-class URM students have to be excused to make room for their poor and working class brothers and sisters. Do you?  Can't we have more rich Latinos, middle-class African Americans, and poor Native Americans at the same time? 

Ideally, yes.  Realistically, no.  The more I look at it, the more I'm convinced that it really is a zero-sum game. 

Why? Because at the end of the day, law schools are watching USNWR -- and numbers are a huge determinant of where their schools will wind up.  You don't get a bonus for having 20% of your class be black intsead of 10%, but unless you're one of the schools the USNWR is using to "prime" the rankings (i.e., HYS), you will get penalized for having your LSAT median drop. (See Boalt.) If they can have their diversity numbers be respectable while getting students with higher scores to enroll, they will.

Quote
You know, I have a fairly rigid socialist training, and I was loath to admit it for a long time, but race really does matter.  African American and Native American and Latino and Hmong (etc.) communities need lawyers to represent them, lawyers who reflect them and who understand the specific dynamics of their racial experiences.  I work with many lawyers who represent a racial group that is different than their own, and I think that's great.  But I've also noticed how, occasionally, these lawyers don't "get" things, how sometimes folks just want to talk to someone who understands better, who looks like them, who speaks a bit of Kreyol, whatever. I think that's fair.

I agree.

Quote
I also know that even upper-income African American and Latino families face huge disadvantages in life compared to their white counterparts: fewer assets, worse schools, diminshed expectations from teachers, worse healthcare, bad encounters with cops, etc., etc.  I think it's right that AA should account for these qualities in addition to family income, and race itself is an imperfect but fairly reliable index.

I agree that upper-income URMs face problems with race that their white counterparts don't.  In an ideal world, if the choice came down to them and a white person with an identical background and identical qualifications, the choice should go to the URM applicant. 

The problem is that in the real world, it's not implemented that way.  :-\

Quote
p.s. This is the Lily I know and love!  Astute, thoughtful, witty.

Thanks. :-*
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 12, 2006, 12:50:23 PM
This is where we fundamentally differ.  I think that schools should take the most qualified applicants, based mostly on numbers and to some degree interesting life experiences (note: being a URM does not, in itself, qualify as an interesting life experience).  If this means that the whole class is comprised of Long Island Jews and Asians, so be it. 

I don't think law schools have clearly thought about what they actually want, making the numbers they rely on pretty silly.

If they want people who will be good law students, relying on the LSAT, statistically speaking, is probably the most viable option. 

This misses my point, and in re-reading my post, I realized that it's because work's been insane so my sleep deprivation limited my clarity.

My point is that they're not entirely certain whether they want students who'll get good grades, or students who will be successful lawyers.  Consequently, the LSAT may be the best tool available, but it's still an abysmal one.  My ultimate point is that the system itself needs to be overhauled.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: FossilJ on May 12, 2006, 01:08:15 PM
Roloson has been great, not heroic.  Yeah, we'll see what happens.  If Cheech gets some goals, I think we've wrapped this series up.  Without finals now I'd go to game 5.


Where can I have a class of only Asians and Long Island Jews?  That would be my dream school.  Are any of the NYC schools like that?

San Jose in 7, my friend.

And if you don't call that stop on Cheechoo last night heroic, I don't know what is.  Awkward, but heroic.



SJ in 5.  I hope.

The stop was heroic; however, his play has been great, but far from Bryzgalov.  Pretty much even with some of the robs Toskala has had.

In terms of pressure, I'd say all three of these goalies have been heroic.  But yeah, neither have been Bryzgalov-type heroic. 

I've seen Edmonton-Dallas too many times to think that this series won't go to seven games.  I want the Oilers to win, but I just don't think they have the fire power. 

If they do win, however, you guys won't see me for a while.  I'll be down on Whyte Avenue getting hammered for a week straight.

Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 12, 2006, 10:05:04 PM
This is the part I wonder about.  I've noticed that undergrad and law schools tend to be very intellectually lazy in the admissions process, at least compared to the graduate admissions programs I'm familiar with.  Even though what I'm about to say is anecdotal, I've seen that laziness reflected in the makeup of the student bodies.  In all my time in and around Penn and Princeton, I only met two minority from a truly poor background, and they both attended good private schools thanks to parental tuition benefits.  While the minorities were less affluent than whites, I couldn't find anyone from Strawberry Mansion. 

Now, I know it makes sense to hide your background at these schools, but I'm good at spotting the little things.  (Sadly, not House or Veronica Mars level, but "you speak in the passive voice a lot; are you from Kiev?" good.)

I completely agree that admissions committees are intellectually lazy.  I think it might be in part because, unlike elite liberal arts graduate programs, the study of law doesn't require any particular set of skills or interests, or a specific type of preparation, and thus you get a huge number of people applying with very few weeding characteristics and little in common with one another. In combination with the size of most law school classes

I'm not sure this really matters.  At Princeton, some departments get 1,000+ applications for eight or ten spots -- and the individual departments do the selection themselves (i.e., no admissions offices).

This is true.  But I do think that the more specific training requirements and research needs of individual departments and faculty will make some decisions automatic.  He wants to write on Bourne and your American intellectual historian is leaving next year?  Chuck him.  The faculty need research assistance in emerging questions on ultracold atomic physics?   Only a handful of departments could prepare someone for that. Etc. Etc.  Law schools have neither the same investment (research needs) nor the same narrow criteria for admissions.  I do think this makes it difficult.  Not that it's an excuse...

That said, I just don't believe that the use of race in admissions is a particularly egregious form of this laziness.

To be honest, I don't think it's more egregious either.  My point is mostly just that the implementation based on laziness undermines the reason for its existence.

Okay, but I just don't think the results are that bad.  I'd like to see more URM students in law schools, and I'd like to see more class diversity.  I don't have any concerns about the qualifications or class backgrounds of the URM students who do end up getting in and going. 

Yes, I think it would be really great if more lower-class URM students went to law school, and I think this would happen if there were greater attention to the challenges individual applicants face -- even without a specific program of socioeconomic AA.  But I don't see URM admissions as a fixed quantity so that upper- and middle-class URM students have to be excused to make room for their poor and working class brothers and sisters. Do you?  Can't we have more rich Latinos, middle-class African Americans, and poor Native Americans at the same time? 

Ideally, yes.  Realistically, no.  The more I look at it, the more I'm convinced that it really is a zero-sum game. 

Why? Because at the end of the day, law schools are watching USNWR -- and numbers are a huge determinant of where their schools will wind up.  You don't get a bonus for having 20% of your class be black intsead of 10%, but unless you're one of the schools the USNWR is using to "prime" the rankings (i.e., HYS), you will get penalized for having your LSAT median drop. (See Boalt.) If they can have their diversity numbers be respectable while getting students with higher scores to enroll, they will.

I think these are good points.  And @#!* if that isn't terribly depressing.  :-\
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Lily Jaye on May 13, 2006, 01:03:43 PM
This is the part I wonder about.  I've noticed that undergrad and law schools tend to be very intellectually lazy in the admissions process, at least compared to the graduate admissions programs I'm familiar with.  Even though what I'm about to say is anecdotal, I've seen that laziness reflected in the makeup of the student bodies.  In all my time in and around Penn and Princeton, I only met two minority from a truly poor background, and they both attended good private schools thanks to parental tuition benefits.  While the minorities were less affluent than whites, I couldn't find anyone from Strawberry Mansion. 

Now, I know it makes sense to hide your background at these schools, but I'm good at spotting the little things.  (Sadly, not House or Veronica Mars level, but "you speak in the passive voice a lot; are you from Kiev?" good.)

I completely agree that admissions committees are intellectually lazy.  I think it might be in part because, unlike elite liberal arts graduate programs, the study of law doesn't require any particular set of skills or interests, or a specific type of preparation, and thus you get a huge number of people applying with very few weeding characteristics and little in common with one another. In combination with the size of most law school classes

I'm not sure this really matters.  At Princeton, some departments get 1,000+ applications for eight or ten spots -- and the individual departments do the selection themselves (i.e., no admissions offices).

This is true.  But I do think that the more specific training requirements and research needs of individual departments and faculty will make some decisions automatic.  He wants to write on Bourne and your American intellectual historian is leaving next year?  Chuck him.  The faculty need research assistance in emerging questions on ultracold atomic physics?   Only a handful of departments could prepare someone for that. Etc. Etc.  Law schools have neither the same investment (research needs) nor the same narrow criteria for admissions.  I do think this makes it difficult.  Not that it's an excuse...

And some decisions in law school are automatic.  However, the most applicants in both divisions fall into the mushy middle.  :-\

Even if you don't have research needs or specific training backgrounds, you can still choose how you want to define success, investigate what your most successful alumns have in common, and use those criteria as the basis for admissions.  If you know exactly what you want and exactly what you're looking for, the entire process is much faster -- and you don't have to rely on a silly, overly vague test that has nothing to do with law school. 

But aside from that, it seems like we agree. :)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: fincavigia on May 13, 2006, 02:49:51 PM
According to a paper by Richard Sander, a professor at UCLA Law, affirmative action actually hurts black students by placing them in schools where they are not competitive with the rest of the student body. As evidence he cites that:

-Half of black law students are in the bottom 10% of their class.

-92% of black law students are in the bottom 50% of their class.

-83 percent of whites graduated and passed the bar within five years of entering law school, while only about 58 percent of blacks did.

If this is true, how do you justify allowing people into schools where they are obviously unqualified simply because of their race? I don't see how you can really justify this.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: Miss P on May 13, 2006, 03:19:53 PM
According to a paper by Richard Sander, a professor at UCLA Law, affirmative action actually hurts black students by placing them in schools where they are not competitive with the rest of the student body. As evidence he cites that:

-Half of black law students are in the bottom 10% of their class.

-92% of black law students are in the bottom 50% of their class.

-83 percent of whites graduated and passed the bar within five years of entering law school, while only about 58 percent of blacks did.

If this is true, how do you justify allowing people into schools where they are obviously unqualified simply because of their race? I don't see how you can really justify this.

This is a very impatient response, and I'm sorry.  But please read  other threads about Sander's study.  People disagree about this, but I believe his methods and conclusion are totally flawed.  This is a good introduction to the responses: http://www.slate.com/id/2117745/
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: philibusters on May 13, 2006, 05:58:22 PM
According to a paper by Richard Sander, a professor at UCLA Law, affirmative action actually hurts black students by placing them in schools where they are not competitive with the rest of the student body. As evidence he cites that:

-Half of black law students are in the bottom 10% of their class.

-92% of black law students are in the bottom 50% of their class.

-83 percent of whites graduated and passed the bar within five years of entering law school, while only about 58 percent of blacks did.

If this is true, how do you justify allowing people into schools where they are obviously unqualified simply because of their race? I don't see how you can really justify this.

I doubt those numbers hold well at my school at least for my class and msot of the urm's seem as smart as the rest of the class.  There was one hispanic girl (at least I think shes hispanic, she might just be white) and one african american girl in my classes who seem to skip some of the readings, but there are non-urms who do that do (infact depnding on the class, sometimes I don't do some of the readings), but generally they seem to be about avg. in general and I would guess their grade distribution is pretty avg.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: John Galt on May 15, 2006, 06:22:48 AM
According to a paper by Richard Sander, a professor at UCLA Law, affirmative action actually hurts black students by placing them in schools where they are not competitive with the rest of the student body. As evidence he cites that:

-Half of black law students are in the bottom 10% of their class.

-92% of black law students are in the bottom 50% of their class.

-83 percent of whites graduated and passed the bar within five years of entering law school, while only about 58 percent of blacks did.

If this is true, how do you justify allowing people into schools where they are obviously unqualified simply because of their race? I don't see how you can really justify this.

Sander's study doesn't apply to the top law schools
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: TrojanChispas on May 15, 2006, 06:57:41 AM
According to a paper by Richard Sander, a professor at UCLA Law, affirmative action actually hurts black students by placing them in schools where they are not competitive with the rest of the student body. As evidence he cites that:

-Half of black law students are in the bottom 10% of their class.

-92% of black law students are in the bottom 50% of their class.

-83 percent of whites graduated and passed the bar within five years of entering law school, while only about 58 percent of blacks did.

If this is true, how do you justify allowing people into schools where they are obviously unqualified simply because of their race? I don't see how you can really justify this.

YOu justify it by looking at the history of the US.  People held to the fringes of society will stay there if not actively brought back into the fold.  White America created a disease in the black population through slavery that has been passed down from generation to generation, the effects of which manifest themselves in prisons, schools, and gang membership.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: fincavigia on May 15, 2006, 09:03:52 AM
According to a paper by Richard Sander, a professor at UCLA Law, affirmative action actually hurts black students by placing them in schools where they are not competitive with the rest of the student body. As evidence he cites that:

-Half of black law students are in the bottom 10% of their class.

-92% of black law students are in the bottom 50% of their class.

-83 percent of whites graduated and passed the bar within five years of entering law school, while only about 58 percent of blacks did.

If this is true, how do you justify allowing people into schools where they are obviously unqualified simply because of their race? I don't see how you can really justify this.

YOu justify it by looking at the history of the US.  People held to the fringes of society will stay there if not actively brought back into the fold.  White America created a disease in the black population through slavery that has been passed down from generation to generation, the effects of which manifest themselves in prisons, schools, and gang membership.

That may be true, but do blacks today DESERVE to get a boost in law school admssions? Obviously they do not deserve this based soley on their skin color.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: redemption on May 15, 2006, 09:13:08 AM

That may be true, but do blacks today DESERVE to get a boost in law school admssions? Obviously they do not deserve this based soley on their skin color.

Give it up, will you? Do you imagine that you've thought of anything new or persuasive to say on this subject? You don't. You're simply boring us to tears with your drivel.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: redemption on May 15, 2006, 09:23:41 AM
Eh. Obsessive + stupid makes me snippy. I don't get what they're hoping for by posting this inanity.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: redemption on May 15, 2006, 09:36:27 AM
If they're angry, they should say that: "I'm angry". Posting ill tought-out ideas won't help, just makes them look dumb.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: TrojanChispas on May 15, 2006, 10:02:38 AM
If they're angry, they should say that: "I'm angry". Posting ill tought-out ideas won't help, just makes them look dumb.

While you have a point, it brings out quotes like this:

Quote
YOu justify it by looking at the history of the US.  People held to the fringes of society will stay there if not actively brought back into the fold.  White America created a disease in the black population through slavery that has been passed down from generation to generation, the effects of which manifest themselves in prisons, schools, and gang membership.

which shows that the other side's arguments are just as dumb.  It is "White America's" fault that blacks don't achieve today?  I'm sure Mr. Cosby and anybody else looking at this problem without a slanted liberal elite viewpoint will agree, right...

both sides have valid points, but those run out after a few posts and as long as there's a response from the other side, the argument deteriorates into drivel ;)

White America destroyed the family and community structure of a whole people, not to mention stripped them of their culture and relegated them to the bottom of society for two centuries.  The effect that had on families was devastating and lasting.  They are responsible for a disease and it is their problem that blacks are terribly underrepresented in higher education, overrepresented in jails. 

Take a look at India and how they have handled past injustices to the untouchables/scheduled castes; affirmative action was implemented because the leaders recognized that without it, those people would forever be at the fringes of society.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: H4CS on May 15, 2006, 10:47:12 AM
India, you mean where and the medical system is getting progressively worse due to AA?

Ow, my head.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 15, 2006, 11:33:23 AM
That's bull.  The decline in black America's family and social structure has nothing to do with white oppression, as it occurred mainly AFTER the Civil Rights Act.


Not that I don't agree, but just b/c the deterioration started after CRA doesn't mean it's not the result of white oppression.

In that case, why didn't the decline start WAY before, when oppression was at its height?

Personally, I think the decline in family is due to the Great Society entitlement programs. 
Yes. Feeding poor children is the root of all evil.
Googler, you do know that a great many welfare parents are white, don't you?
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: dbgirl on May 15, 2006, 11:41:20 AM
That's bull.  The decline in black America's family and social structure has nothing to do with white oppression, as it occurred mainly AFTER the Civil Rights Act.


Not that I don't agree, but just b/c the deterioration started after CRA doesn't mean it's not the result of white oppression.

In that case, why didn't the decline start WAY before, when oppression was at its height?

Personally, I think the decline in family is due to the Great Society entitlement programs. 
Yes. Feeding poor children is the root of all evil.
Googler, you do know that a great many welfare parents are white, don't you?

Yes, stealing money from people to give to another is still evil, even if it's being done with the blessing of the government.

It's absolutely true, that the black communities have been destroyed by these programs.  Why bother waiting until you're married to have kids when you know the government will send you a check? 
Googler, did you know that some people on welfare have actually HAD jobs and actually PAID into "the system?"
Do you have any idea how much [little] people on welfare get? It's not enough to live on.  Most welfare parents have to live with relatives, have boyfriends who support them or under the table jobs to survive. How much research or reading have you done about welfare? 

It's presumptuous to assume that most blacks on are on welfare and/or that people on welfare are inherently bad. You also claim that welfare is a drain on blacks, but not whites, when whites are on welfare as well.



Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: TrojanChispas on May 15, 2006, 02:05:22 PM
not at all.  his argument is non sequitur.


HTH
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 15, 2006, 02:19:23 PM
his argument is non sequitur.

I can't imagine an argument that is non sequitur (as an adjective?).

I'm an idiot, and an ass.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: coquita on May 15, 2006, 03:07:41 PM
That's bull.  The decline in black America's family and social structure has nothing to do with white oppression, as it occurred mainly AFTER the Civil Rights Act.


Not that I don't agree, but just b/c the deterioration started after CRA doesn't mean it's not the result of white oppression.

In that case, why didn't the decline start WAY before, when oppression was at its height?

Personally, I think the decline in family is due to the Great Society entitlement programs. 
Yes. Feeding poor children is the root of all evil.
Googler, you do know that a great many welfare parents are white, don't you?

Yes, stealing money from people to give to another is still evil, even if it's being done with the blessing of the government.

It's absolutely true, that the black communities have been destroyed by these programs.  Why bother waiting until you're married to have kids when you know the government will send you a check? 

just so you know polygamists do the same thing. they don't get legally married so they can claim welfare for their large families. In Colorado City, which is nearly 100% white 78% percent of families are on welfare. They recieve 8 dollars in government service for every 1 dollar paid in taxes. I'd like to see a comparison between this city and a highly concentrated black community of the same size (9,000)
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: TrojanChispas on May 15, 2006, 03:45:42 PM
his argument is non sequitur.

I can't imagine an argument that is non sequitur (as an adjective?).

I'm an idiot, and an ass.

Well said.
Title: Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
Post by: bass on May 15, 2006, 07:12:02 PM
his argument is non sequitur.

I can't imagine an argument that is non sequitur (as an adjective?).

I'm an idiot, and an ass.

Well said.

I'm glad we can agree on something, though I almost wish you justified your statement.