Law School Discussion

Specific Groups => Minority and Non-Traditional Law Students => Topic started by: fincavigia on April 14, 2006, 01:20:03 PM

Title: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: fincavigia on April 14, 2006, 01:20:03 PM
Do you think the average GPA/LSAT (which let's face it, is all they really care about) is substantially lower at a given school for the black students?

By that I mean, do you think a school with a 3.5/172 average has a 3.2/165 average for it's black students?
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: oldblackman on April 14, 2006, 09:34:52 PM
If they did, you would never find it in writing.  I'm sure no school wants to be the next Michigan or SIUC.  ;)

Only those who have access to a school's database of applicants/admitted students could provide you with a definitive answer.  However, I think your assumption is probably true (at some schools), but minority applicants still have to be exceptional in some other way if their GPA and LSAT are lower.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: rugger on May 05, 2006, 07:19:47 AM
i don't know for students, but i spoke with a black prof. from one of the ivy league schools, and he admitted (even though he was brilliant) that there were more qualified white prof than he, but the school needed to raise its number of black prof. so he was offered the job

he then went on to say that black prof. were the hottest thing to have for all the ivy league schools, and you could be a slightly above average black male prof. and get offered a lot more money than you were worth

just throwing this out there for waht its worth
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: pikey on May 05, 2006, 08:10:31 AM
i don't know for students, but i spoke with a black prof. from one of the ivy league schools, and he admitted (even though he was brilliant) that there were more qualified white prof than he, but the school needed to raise its number of black prof. so he was offered the job

he then went on to say that black prof. were the hottest thing to have for all the ivy league schools, and you could be a slightly above average black male prof. and get offered a lot more money than you were worth

just throwing this out there for waht its worth

Of course there are more qualified white profs than him.  There are more black, white, asian, hispanic professors than him.  I'm going to let you in on a secret from the working world.  There's always people who are more qualified than the one who gets the job.

Hiring usually has to do with the person who is qualified according to certain aims or biases, which the person doing the hiring has a lot to do with.  In my company, they try to find the most qualified Bermudian.  Some people may be trying to find the most qualified white person.  Maybe its the most qualified female or the person who promotes themselves the most (not the same as most qualified).  You get the point.

Just because the aims aren't blatantly stated, as in the case of AA, does not mean that they aren't there and aren't active in hiring and promoting decisions.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: merde on May 05, 2006, 10:19:27 AM
Well if you search this board you'll find URMs with LSATs in the 163 area who get into Columbia, and URMs with scores lower than 170 who got into Yale and Harvard.

While no matter what their experiences and GPAs, unless they have absolutley phenomenal connections no white male with a LSAT lower than 175 is getting into Yale. 

I'm not neccisarily implying that I'm against AA, that's a very complex debate involving many diffeent variables, but it's ridiculous to deny that being a URM doesn't play a significant role in law school admissions.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: Lsassy on May 05, 2006, 10:45:09 AM
Hummm, are you sure that "unless they have absolutely phenomenal connections no white male with a LSAT lower than 175 is getting into Yale", because I happen to know a few of them who got admitted with a 172, 170 and (gasp!)a 168 .  Oh and by the way, when schools publish their median LSATs and GPAs, it inherently means that some people will fall below and above that number. Sheeshhh, one would hope that someone planning on attending (or who is currently in) law school could figure that out, à moins que tu sois un imbécile, hein Merde?
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: pikey on May 05, 2006, 10:52:33 AM
Well if you search this board you'll find URMs with LSATs in the 163 area who get into Columbia, and URMs with scores lower than 170 who got into Yale and Harvard.

While no matter what their experiences and GPAs, unless they have absolutley phenomenal connections no white male with a LSAT lower than 175 is getting into Yale

I'm not neccisarily implying that I'm against AA, that's a very complex debate involving many diffeent variables, but it's ridiculous to deny that being a URM doesn't play a significant role in law school admissions.



Why is it that nobody gets upset about the fact that legacies also get a boost in admissions processes?  If anything, they should be the people who need it the least, because if your parent(s) graduated from a top school it's highly unlikely that you're suffering from any type of hardship.

By the same token, everyone like to attact AA, conveniently forgetting that the people who have benefitted the most from AA are white women.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: plaintext on May 05, 2006, 10:58:59 AM
legacies can be of any race?  I don't support it, but there are notable differences between legacy and AA?
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: pikey on May 05, 2006, 11:07:20 AM
legacies can be of any race?  I don't support it, but there are notable differences between legacy and AA?

What's the difference?  Where's the fairness in that?  If one opposes AA because he or she feels that it's a blanket policy that rewards people for things that are beyond their control (their race) then how are legacies, which rewards people for being lucky enough to be born to someone who went to a certain school, any different?

If a school is allowed to have a goal of rewarding alumni or encouraging legacy admits and using a certain policy to acheive this, then why is it any less legitimate for them to have a goal of encouraging diversity and using a similar policy to acheive it?

I think it's pretty ironic that the rich conservatives who attack AA and social programs benefit from the most from their own system of handouts (from tax cuts to legacy admits to govt subsidies).
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: plaintext on May 05, 2006, 11:29:54 AM

that assumes the same principle(s) are applied to all candidates, which I seriously doubt happens.  a white person, a URM, a poor person, and a legacy are each evaluted by different criteria... at least with the acknowledgement there isn't a universal yardstick for a cross comparison. 

If a school is allowed to have a goal of rewarding alumni or encouraging legacy admits and using a certain policy to acheive this, then why is it any less legitimate for them to have a goal of encouraging diversity and using a similar policy to acheive it?

my understanding is most schools with legacy admits also have URM boosts, so it's difficult to address that.  the only point in commenting is justifying a policy based on the illegitimacy of another policy just sticks out.  For example, I do support some URM boosts for diversity and representation reasons, but not on the basis of another wronged policy such as legacy admits.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: pikey on May 05, 2006, 11:34:59 AM

that assumes the same principle(s) are applied to all candidates, which I seriously doubt happens.  a white person, a URM, a poor person, and a legacy are each evaluted by different criteria... at least with the acknowledgement there isn't a universal yardstick for a cross comparison. 

The arguments proposed by those who attack AA often implicitly assume that admissions decisions are even across the border and that AA is the anomaly, when we all know that this isn't true.

my understanding is most schools with legacy admits also have URM boosts, so it's difficult to address that.  the only point in commenting is justifying a policy based on the illegitimacy of another policy just sticks out.  For example, I do support some URM boosts for diversity and representation reasons, but not on the basis of another wronged policy such as legacy admits.

I wasn't saying that AA is legitimate based on another wronged policy, I was pointing out the inconsistency of those who support and/or benefit from legacy policies who attack AA.

The arguments proposed ny those who attack
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: merde on May 05, 2006, 03:52:03 PM
Hummm, are you sure that "unless they have absolutely phenomenal connections no white male with a LSAT lower than 175 is getting into Yale", because I happen to know a few of them who got admitted with a 172, 170 and (gasp!)a 168 .  Oh and by the way, when schools publish their median LSATs and GPAs, it inherently means that some people will fall below and above that number. Sheeshhh, one would hope that someone planning on attending (or who is currently in) law school could figure that out, à moins que tu sois un imbécile, hein Merde?

You're right I should have said 170, my mistake. I don't know about the friend you're mentioning, but if you check LSN there isn't any nonURM admit with less than 170.
Really, there's no need to prove how correct you're screen name by including generally bitchy comments and poor french.

The reason most people don't get upset about legacy admissions is because legacy does not carry nearly as much weight as people argueing for AA like to assume. It's not a defining characteristic of an application and isn' going to get you an admit if you're numbers are below the school's average.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: pikey on May 05, 2006, 04:00:34 PM
Hummm, are you sure that "unless they have absolutely phenomenal connections no white male with a LSAT lower than 175 is getting into Yale", because I happen to know a few of them who got admitted with a 172, 170 and (gasp!)a 168 .  Oh and by the way, when schools publish their median LSATs and GPAs, it inherently means that some people will fall below and above that number. Sheeshhh, one would hope that someone planning on attending (or who is currently in) law school could figure that out, à moins que tu sois un imbécile, hein Merde?

You're right I should have said 170, my mistake. I don't know about the friend you're mentioning, but if you check LSN there isn't any nonURM admit with less than 170.
Really, there's no need to prove how correct you're screen name by including generally bitchy comments and poor french.

The reason most people don't get upset about legacy admissions is because legacy does not carry nearly as much weight as people argueing for AA like to assume. It's not a defining characteristic of an application and isn' going to get you an admit if you're numbers are below the school's average.

Umm, obviously some people are getting in below the school's average.  That's why it's called an average.  There's still a good 25% of the class with stats lower than the median.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: J D on May 05, 2006, 04:27:36 PM
Actually, I'm almost certain that half the class is below the median.  ;)
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: petitschoque on May 05, 2006, 06:24:29 PM
Fincavigia, this is the second thread that I know of that you've started specifically about blacks and Affirmative Action. A few questions:

1. Are you somehow unaware of the fact that blacks aren't the only group to benefit from Affirmative Action? Hispanics and Native Americans also get a "boost" yet people like you never mention those two groups. Why is this?

2. What is your problem? I'm going to come right out and ask that instead of beating around the bush. Obviously it's not really Affirmative Action that bothers you since if it was the program, you'd have questions about all the recepients, not just blacks. And obviously you do have a problem since you keep starting threads. What is the nature and origin of this problem you have? And why don't you just come out and discuss it instead of starting trollish threads with loaded questions?
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: philibusters on May 05, 2006, 06:24:56 PM
From a marginal perspective its huge, less so from a lay person's perspective.  For example say you get an AA admit get into Harvard and Yale with a 164 3.6 (that actually would be a reach, but not a huge reach), most likely they would have got into neither without AA and thats what we focus on.  From a more distant view 164 is the 92% of LSAT and 3.6 usually puts you around the top 10% at most college, even with ones with grade inflation top 20% and it doesn't look like that much of a reach.  I picked those numbers too because they are the medians at the lawschool I go to and while I don't think many of my classmates would excel academcially at T14's, I don't think the majority of them would be fish out of water either.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: philibusters on May 05, 2006, 06:28:28 PM
Fincavigia, this is the second thread that I know of that you've started specifically about blacks and Affirmative Action. A few questions:

1. Are you somehow unaware of the fact that blacks aren't the only group to benefit from Affirmative Action? Hispanics and Native Americans also get a "boost" yet people like you never mention those two groups. Why is this?

2. What is your problem? I'm going to come right out and ask that instead of beating around the bush. Obviously it's not really Affirmative Action that bothers you since if it was the program, you'd have questions about all the recepients, not just blacks. Obviously you do have a problem since you keep starting threads.


Haha, somebody else getting flack about starting to many AA threads, according to Red I  have started more AA threads than anybody else, 5, but I think that number is misleading because some of the threads like main purpose of higher education or only indirectly related to AA instead of directly related.

Edit:  I looked it up I only started 4, I am not sure if somebody else gave me the number 5 or I just made that up myself.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: dbgirl on May 05, 2006, 06:37:25 PM
Obviously race is making a huge difference ... there's like, 6 black guys at my school!
I hear some schools have as many 16 blacks enrolled.  ::)
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: fincavigia on May 05, 2006, 10:54:54 PM
I do start a lot of AA threads just because I think it's interesting and I like seeing what people have to say about it- by that I mean argue about it.

I ask loaded questions like this on purpose too to see what people think. That doesn't make me a racist. I am against AA, but it doesn't really bother me as much as my internet posting might indicate. I work a crappy job and I like having posts that a lot of people are actually interested in so there are responses for me to read.

And I'm not trolling, I've been on this site for a long time. I actually do like to hear what people say to these questions.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: John Galt on May 05, 2006, 11:50:49 PM
http://a255.g.akamaitech.net/7/255/2422/19sep20050805/www.gpoaccess.gov/congress/senate/judiciary/sh102-1084pt2/257-258.pdf

A generic but interesting read as to the evolution of affirmative action at Yale Law School.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: petitschoque on May 06, 2006, 06:40:22 AM
Fincavigia, I can't help but notice that you didn't answer my first question. So here it is again:

1. Are you somehow unaware of the fact that blacks aren't the only group to benefit from Affirmative Action? Hispanics and Native Americans also get a "boost" yet people like you never mention those two groups. Why is this?

You don't start a lot of threads about Affirmative Action. You start a lot of threads about Affirmative Action and blacks. Why is it that you scapegoat only this one group? Does Affirmative Action only bother you when it benefits blacks or why the focus on blacks only?
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: fincavigia on May 06, 2006, 09:46:01 AM
I said blacks becaause I've been told that Latinos get a much smaller boost in admissions (2 or 3 LSAT points compared to about 10 points).EDIT: That said, in the unlikely event I try to start a similar thread, I'll just say URM.

As for "You say that GPA/LSAT is all schools care about and yet you "ask" if they're lower at a given school for black students. I see a problem in your post. Do you?" I don't understand the question. Are saying that GPA/LSAT are not really all schools care about or are you saying that I should have said GPA/LSAT race are all schools care about? Or are you saying something else?
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: shaz on May 06, 2006, 10:00:11 AM
i'm not a racist.  i just like to go to klan meetings.  hey, they have bbq.   ;D
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: petitschoque on May 06, 2006, 10:54:16 AM
I said blacks becaause I've been told that Latinos get a much smaller boost in admissions (2 or 3 LSAT points compared to about 10 points).

Ehnnn. Your explanation does not suffice. Please try again.

The sources that specify points actaully say that hispanics get 5 to 7. The fact that you are (deliberately, I'm sure) understating the impact of AA in their admissions speaks volumes. What also speaks volumes is the fact that you conveniently don't mention that American Indians get the highest "boost" of all--10+ LSAT points. So if you're going by who gets the greatest boost, wouldn't your trollish attempts focus on Native Americans? And before you try the "there aren't that many native Americans in law school" BS card I'm sure you'd like to pull out, let's not forget that there are many of your fellow whites with 1/2 a drop of native American blood who put Native American on their apps and skate by under that technicality. Look around this site for the "my great-great-grandfather seventeen times removed bought a brood mare from an american indian, can I put American Indian on my app" threads and ask if there's anyone who doesn't know white people who were rediscovering the Sitting Bull in them during admissions. So while the actual number of full-blooded NAs might be lower, there is no shortage of mixed people and dishonest others with no ties to the culture who still use the "advantage."

SO, the basic point is that your excuse of "blacks get more points" fails miserably and really no explanation at all because if that was what your POV was really based on, you'd be focusing on American Indians.

Were you somehow unaware of this, Fincavigia?

Now let me repose the question before I condemn you as the trollish and most likely anti-black, insidious little sneak that I think you are:

In light of the fact (that I'm sure you knew since you were able to pull out "points" to bolster your fib) that blacks do not get the most points, why do your threads still focus on them and only them?
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: fincavigia on May 06, 2006, 04:23:24 PM
You make some pretty bold statements. Whatever I say, you seem to come up with some sophmoric little quip and then proceed to tell me I'm racist.

Case in point: "Ehnnn. Your explanation does not suffice. Please try again."- Come on man, you've got to do better than that. You just sound like an a-hole.

I think I'm done responding to stuff like this. I'm sorry about your erroneous impression of me as an "anti-black, insidious little sneak," but I think I'm just going to have to find some way to carry that weight.

Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: Ever on May 06, 2006, 06:16:47 PM
Legacies give much more money than non legacies. Also, I think Blacks are most often associated with AA because the main public advocates of the program are black. Hispanics and Native Americans lack a bold public figure like say Jessie Jackson. JS

-------

Anyway, AA is an imperfect response to a problem that simply has to be addressed. No one can honestly deny the need for racial and cultural diversity at a school and in general minorities are not given the same socio-economic opportunities as whites are as a race. Yes, there are disadvantaged whites, but that is not the issue. There are enough whites who are not disadvantaged that their representation in various public/private sectors has never been a problem. Those individuals who benefit from the program are not less qualified.

Yale has no interest in having a stupid person in their classrooms. As has been said elsewhere the admission committee knows that an individual with a 3.6/164 can do the work required at the school. The problem is they have enough 4.0/175’s applying that the 164 cannot compete in the admissions process. However, the school does not have enough URMs with 4.0/175 numbers and therefore lower GPA/LSAT numbers can compete. They are no less able to succeed within the school or the profession because of their intelligence.

AA is not a punishment it is a social correction. Suck it up and realize the immense and institutionalized racism that these groups have been subjected to by this country which still negatively influences these populations today. Attacking the system by saying they are less qualified fails to take into account these historic injustices as well as the fact that these groups are under represented within certain professions as a direct result of those injustices. Any Anglo who lives in Cali or Texas most likely owes their land to a disenfranchised Californio or Tejano family and similar things can be said about Black, Indians, etc. We may not have benefited from past racism directly but our race certainly has.

Then again I am most likely wrong. I never bothered with AA or this board before.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: petitschoque on May 06, 2006, 10:42:58 PM
You make some pretty bold statements.

The truth demands boldness.

Quote
Whatever I say, you seem to come up with some sophmoric little quip and then proceed to tell me I'm racist.

That's because you're trying to be clever with your flimsy excuses about why you have this clearly unnecessary and undue focus on blacks. I won't treat you with even a bit of respect when your behavior is spineless and sneaky. You have yet to offer a plausible alternative explanation so you leave the obvious--that your real issue is with blacks not Affirmative Action.

Quote
Case in point: "Ehnnn. Your explanation does not suffice. Please try again."- Come on man, you've got to do better than that. You just sound like an a-hole.

Nice try, "man"...but the point of the exchange between us is why you are focusing on blacks. So don't try to reroute the discussion.

Quote
I think I'm done responding to stuff like this. I'm sorry about your erroneous impression of me as an "anti-black, insidious little sneak," but I think I'm just going to have to find some way to carry that weight.

Good. It's better for you to run off when you've run out of ways to dodge the truth than for you to keep abusing my intelligence with your half-assed explanations and avoidance. And don't even try to pretend that you're slinking off because of my (true) observations about you. You're slinking off with your tail between your legs because you've been cornered and have nothing else to say for yourself.

There's something to be said for boldness, Fincavigia. I might be a jackass but I'm an audacious, forthright jackass and always put my hands where people's eyes can see (name that song!). It's really loathesome that you start these threads about blacks, knowing where they'll go, knowing your true intention yet trying to pull the wool over people's eyes with horrid disclaimers like this one:

Quote
I'm not advocating either side with this so don't flame me.

...as if anyone's fooled. You don't even do a good job of being dodgy yet want others to play along as if you didn't already tell on yourself. I mean "how much does race affect admissions"--if my dog could type, she'd troll with more subtlety than that. What a stupid, transparent question.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: ivywhore on May 07, 2006, 12:51:08 AM
too damn much
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: John Galt on May 07, 2006, 12:53:26 AM
not enough.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: ivywhore on May 07, 2006, 12:55:18 AM
economically disadvantaged should be more of a factor than race.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: John Galt on May 07, 2006, 12:55:58 AM
why is that?
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: dbgirl on May 07, 2006, 12:56:09 AM
They should both matter IMO.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: ivywhore on May 07, 2006, 12:58:14 AM
why is that?

Poverty is a barrier to opportunity, like it or not. Being black is not a barrier to beeing intellectually capable. To the extent that many blacks and hispanics would still qualify because of high poverty rates in their community, i am all for that.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: John Galt on May 07, 2006, 01:03:35 AM
why is that?

Poverty is a barrier to opportunity, like it or not. Being black is not a barrier to beeing intellectually capable. To the extent that many blacks and hispanics would still qualify because of high poverty rates in their community, i am all for that.

Wow, I agree with this entire post, yet I disagree that SES should be more of a factor than race. Why not both since being a minority is a barrier to opportunity as well. Being poor is not a barrier to being intellectually capable.

Unless of course we are talking about SES as social scientists define it which includes race :)
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: ivywhore on May 07, 2006, 01:06:00 AM
in our society, poverty is. as for race, yes there are racist bastards still out there, but we have enough laws to protect minorities. Should it be no factor? no it should but economic status should weigh more now.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: dbgirl on May 07, 2006, 01:07:42 AM
I think race should count, I think SES should count. I think SES should count more than race.  That means I just agreed with Ivywhore.  ???
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: John Galt on May 07, 2006, 01:10:54 AM
perhaps. I'm not opposed to the poverty argument. Its pretty compelling IMO. Statistically speaking, however, since there are more poor whites out there, it would seem they would get the competitive advantage of a system weighing poverty and not race or weighing poverty greater than race. So such a system could result in law schools being even less diverse than they are now. On the flip side, poor whites deserve opportunities as well and the door is not exactly open for them in terms of professional school admissions. So its a tough issue.

Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: ivywhore on May 07, 2006, 01:12:26 AM
perhaps. I'm not opposed to the poverty argument. Its pretty compelling IMO. Statistically speaking, however, since there are more poor whites out there, it would seem they would get the competitive advantage of a system weighing poverty and not race or weighing poverty greater than race. So such a system could result in law schools being even less diverse than they are now. On the flip side, poor whites deserve opportunities as well and the door is not exactly open for them in terms of professional school admissions. So its a tough issue.



it is.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: dbgirl on May 07, 2006, 01:13:36 AM
I don't think it would result in a competitive advantage to whites. Most poor students that I know who have gone to law school have also been minorities. However, poor people in general should be recognized for overcoming adversity, beating the odds etc.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: ivywhore on May 07, 2006, 01:14:41 AM
I don't think it would result in a competitive advantage to whites. Most poor students that I know who have gone to law school have also been minorities. However, poor people in general should be recognized for overcoming adversity, beating the odds etc.

poverty hurts...in many ways.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: dbgirl on May 07, 2006, 01:22:14 AM
For one thing poor people don't have LSAT prepcourse $$.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: ivywhore on May 07, 2006, 01:25:14 AM
For one thing poor people don't have LSAT prepcourse $$.

or study abroad or good recommenders or parents with time to help w/hw etc....many problems.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: dbgirl on May 07, 2006, 01:27:24 AM
I had good recommendations ... but only because of my work experience. The parents didn't help a damn bit.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: ivywhore on May 07, 2006, 01:30:58 AM
I had good recommendations ... but only because of my work experience. The parents didn't help a damn bit.

good deal db. the one benefit is you learn self-reliance.  :)
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: Ever on May 07, 2006, 07:28:22 PM
economically disadvantaged should be more of a factor than race.

Did you not agree with what I posted then?


Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: Lsassy on May 07, 2006, 09:06:00 PM
Hummm, are you sure that "unless they have absolutely phenomenal connections no white male with a LSAT lower than 175 is getting into Yale", because I happen to know a few of them who got admitted with a 172, 170 and (gasp!)a 168 .  Oh and by the way, when schools publish their median LSATs and GPAs, it inherently means that some people will fall below and above that number. Sheeshhh, one would hope that someone planning on attending (or who is currently in) law school could figure that out, à moins que tu sois un imbécile, hein Merde?

You're right I should have said 170, my mistake. I don't know about the friend you're mentioning, but if you check LSN there isn't any nonURM admit with less than 170.
Really, there's no need to prove how correct you're screen name by including generally bitchy comments and poor french.

The reason most people don't get upset about legacy admissions is because legacy does not carry nearly as much weight as people argueing for AA like to assume. It's not a defining characteristic of an application and isn' going to get you an admit if you're numbers are below the school's average.

I seldom post on these boards, but I'd like for you, Merde, what an appropriate name might I add, point to any grammatical error in my phrase.  In fact, I did you a favor by correcting "absolutely" for you when I quoted you.  In any case, you cannot question my French.  Why didn't you respond to my reply in french, huh?  FYI, French is my first language, I was educated at Sciences-Po, so do not for a minute  think about questioning my french, especially when you have when you have nothing to show for.  I'm not going to argue with you about the Yale comment, any logical person would agree with me that one does not have to score above a 170 to be admitted into Yale...what then would explain those with above 170s and aren't admitted.  I was under the weird impression that a combination of factors went into the decision making process of admissions committees.

Alas, I rest my case, it's no use arguing with a wall.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: philibusters on May 07, 2006, 09:20:19 PM
I have posted it many times, but I don't think AA is about social justice.  It just isn't.  The social justice idea is that we help the deserving who need just a little boost, but being needy does not make you deserving, its just the status you were born into, whether it is fair or not-wealth inequality is part of the system we live in (for all races).  Furthermore, if you made it to the point where a little boost is all you need, then you are going to get out of poverty already, for example, you would already have a college degree and such.  I can't say for sure I understand AA, if somebody researched the history of it, it would make for a fasnciating journal note, but I can tell its not about social justice. 

Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: Ever on May 07, 2006, 10:24:28 PM
I have posted it many times, but I don't think AA is about social justice.  It just isn't.  The social justice idea is that we help the deserving who need just a little boost, but being needy does not make you deserving, its just the status you were born into, whether it is fair or not-wealth inequality is part of the system we live in (for all races).  Furthermore, if you made it to the point where a little boost is all you need, then you are going to get out of poverty already, for example, you would already have a college degree and such.  I can't say for sure I understand AA, if somebody researched the history of it, it would make for a fasnciating journal note, but I can tell its not about social justice. 

It is about social justice. Being born into a family whose ancestor were slaves and whose father was denied a basic college education simply because he was black is not some social status you are born into. Today’s minorities are not victims of economics or their fathers failing to pull themselves up by their boot straps.

Both the Attacks on the programs and the defenses center on social justice. The scolarly articles are out there for you to find - Hell I am reading one right now on the subject.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: philibusters on May 07, 2006, 10:37:15 PM
We definitely disagree on this.  Please contribute to my what drives AA thread though if you have a strong feeling on the subject.  Actually we agree to some degree, I think everything you said about being born into a family whose ancestors were slaves is very much indeed part of the social system and social history.  Poor white people did not get there magically either, they come from a host of backgrounds and faced social prejudice to that contributed to their economic and social status.  I think what you meant to say was that though they are both about social status you are born into, one is different than the other for historical purposes and from a collective conscience purpose.  If thats what you meant than I agree with it, but that doesn't necessarily imply AA is based on social justice.
Title: Re: How much does race affect admissions?
Post by: Ever on May 07, 2006, 10:43:14 PM
I will take a look at the thread and comment if I feel I need to.