Law School Discussion

Specific Groups => Black Law Students => Topic started by: pass36 on February 26, 2006, 08:44:32 PM

Title: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: pass36 on February 26, 2006, 08:44:32 PM
I saw an article on CNN tonight about how Howard University, or maybe just the Business School, has banned cornrows and long braids.  I didn't catch the exact language.  I was curious about the reaction of folks here.  Good idea, bad idea?  Would it make you more or less likely to go there?

P.S. I know not only black folks go to Howard and I know not only black folks wear cornrows but I am guessing that the only people at Howard who wear cornrows are black so I put it here instead of news discussion.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 26, 2006, 08:45:57 PM
I think that's excellent personally.. I heard that Hampton University is doing the same....
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 26, 2006, 08:48:37 PM
link?
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: intent06 on February 26, 2006, 08:49:43 PM
Now tell me why that is excellent Blk?
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Victor on February 26, 2006, 08:50:45 PM
I saw an article on CNN tonight about how Howard University, or maybe just the Business School, has banned cornrows and long braids.  I didn't catch the exact language.  I was curious about the reaction of folks here.  Good idea, bad idea?  Would it make you more or less likely to go there?

P.S. I know not only black folks go to Howard and I know not only black folks wear cornrows but I am guessing that the only people at Howard who wear cornrows are black so I put it here instead of news discussion.

Howard sold out.

Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: pass36 on February 26, 2006, 08:51:26 PM
I saw it on TV today around 8 Eastern.  

If this works, if it helps attract better students, what is next?  Uniforms? Curfew?
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Inquirer on February 26, 2006, 08:51:37 PM
Please post that article, because I heard something about a school of B banning cornrows and locs, but that was Hampton University.

Either way, it makes sense to me.  Those are both private schools and they can run their schools anyway they want.  If someone has to keep their hair cornrowed, but wants to major in business, there are thousands of other schools he or she can attend.  It seems to me that those hairstyles aren't always socially acceptable in the business field (at least for new hires) and if the purpose of the school is to turn out easily employable graduates, ensuring that students at least look the part of business people is important.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 26, 2006, 08:53:50 PM
yeah, I need to know if this is true so I can start a protest. While dress is important particularly in professional and pre-professional school, I am ashamed that Howard would give in to the idea that any style created and worn predmoninantly by African Americans is so out of the norm to render it unprofessional and worthy of ban. Howard is becoming too pacifiying of white business culture, especially in the school of B.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: M DOT on February 26, 2006, 08:54:35 PM
i read the article about hampton's ban and think it's bs personally.....i mean why not just be straight up and say no natural styles unless it's pulled back in a bun or ponytail for women and men need to keep it cut low and edged up??

Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Inquirer on February 26, 2006, 08:55:35 PM
http://www.wtopnews.com/?nid=25&sid=676513

Jan 21st - 8:10am
 

HAMPTON, Va. - Afros are OK but cornrows and flowing dreadlocks are not for business administration students at Hampton University.

The hair code is part of a strict academic and dress doctrine for combined business administration students at the private, historically black university. The program allows students to receive a bachelor's degree and a master's in business administration in five years.

In addition to the hair rules, students must maintain a B average after their sophomore year, heed a conservative dress code, complete two internships and meet regularly with business leaders.


"We don't have problems with Afros," business Dean Sid Credle said Friday. "A nicely tapered Afro - that's fine."

Credle said the dress, grooming and behavior rules are intended to prepare students for the starched business world.

"When we look at the top 75 African Americans in corporate America, we don't see any of them with extreme hairdos," he said.

With the requirements, "they'll get very comfortable wearing a suit over a five-year period. When they get into corporate America, the transition will be easier," Credle said.

Aaron Wells, a junior from Fairfax, put away his earrings when he enrolled. He's got no complaints.

"It really gives us a very good model of what we should be doing in corporate America," said Wells, who hopes to pursue a career in finance. "We need to look the part as professionals."

Credle said only one or two students per year have not complied.

Jack L. Ezzell Jr., the president of Zel Technologies, a defense contractor in Hampton, said different businesses have different standards. Distinctive dress and hairstyles "might be acceptable in, say, advertising or some other medium that's a bit more informal and creative," he said.

"But clearly, if you were targeting banking or maybe the military or someplace that's a lot more rigid, you've got to be really cautious in doing that."

At his company, standards also vary for technicians and people in marketing.

"Where I have someone who is going to potentially meet with the customer," Ezzell said, "I expect them to look more like the customer would. "I've seen dreads and earrings that look good.

"If they are exceptionally bright, I would not turn them off automatically. But I know many of my business associates would."

At Norfolk Southern Corp., hair and dress matter less than ability, spokeswoman Susan Terpay said. "When we hire new employees," she said, "we focus on their education, their skills and the unique abilities they can bring."

(Copyright 2006 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 26, 2006, 08:56:44 PM
well of course thats the type of thing you expect at Hampton, the fake HU



lol, jk ;)
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on February 26, 2006, 08:58:57 PM
I think that banning ethnic hairstyles is ridiculous. No one ever forgets that you're black. It's not as though a perm makes you more appealing as a black employee to employers. As long as one's hair is well groomed and not distracting, what in the hell is the issue. Half the time, white people aren't even paying that much attention to your hair.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: M DOT on February 26, 2006, 09:00:57 PM
thats funny.....i wonder if my hair blown out into a super duper 1970 fro would be a problem even though it's "nicely tapered"
"We don't have problems with Afros," business Dean Sid Credle said Friday. "A nicely tapered Afro - that's fine."
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nemesis on February 26, 2006, 09:02:40 PM
Oh JG, how we love to bash the School of B.


This is a touchy issue and, even if it is true, I can understand why it would raise a few eyebrows. Even though certain hairstyles are without a doubt an expression of black culture, corporate America is notorious for its conformity. And, unfortunately, that conformity is based on the white male. While I do think the African American community needs to set an example and change this, that's an impossible task to accomplish if you can't get your foot in the door.

Get the job offer: Then you can wear your hair however you want to. It sounds crass but I just wanted to through that out there...
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: faith2005 on February 26, 2006, 09:05:20 PM
seconded kb--its always black people trying to figure out how to limit ourselves. assimilationist n*****. white people don't know the difference really, unless your hair is really wild. i know people with locs who've gotten jobs at law firms and i-banking firms. hampton kicked students out for protesting the war so this doesn't sound out of character at all.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 26, 2006, 09:06:15 PM
Oh JG, how we love to bash the School of B.


This is a touchy issue and, even if it is true, I can understand why it would raise a few eyebrows. Even though certain hairstyles are without a doubt an expression of black culture, corporate America is notorious for its conformity. And, unfortunately, that conformity is based on the white male. While I do think the African American community needs to set an example and change this, that's an impossible task to accomplish if you can't get your foot in the door.

Get the job offer: Then you can wear your hair however you want to. It sounds crass but I just wanted to through that out there...

Ya, ok, AL. That's the problem with some of you school of B folk. You're willing to sell your soul to get into the door and then you forget who you are. Of course, I'm not trying to generalize - there are a number of exceptions. BUT I think the school of B teaches and reinforces conformity - and that's part of the problem. If Howard would back their students wearing ethnic hairstyles, corporations would still hire them. You know this...

Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: intent06 on February 26, 2006, 09:09:01 PM
I absolutely hate it! While I can understand where they are coming from, would we be in agreeance that this is a good idea if a white institution banned it??  The answer to that would be a resounding HELL NAW!!!  The End!
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: crazy8 on February 26, 2006, 09:10:58 PM
I do like my men with the fresh cut! :D ;D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 26, 2006, 09:11:05 PM
I'm playing devil's advocate in a way..but honestly (waiting for the locks versus cornrows argument) I feel that a person is setting themselves up the moment that they are trying to search for a Wall Street job for example with some cornrows in their head... I think that in a way Howard and Hampton are taking a stand to try to better prepare these young men for the jobs that they desire... I don't think that a person is going to lose their sense of identity because of this...

hair and dress should matter less than ability..but if a person is walking in looking a certain way you know that the probability of them getting hired is slim regardless of their credentials.. it's an unfortunate reality....and will stay that way as long as more of us aren't at the top...

Now tell me why that is excellent Blk?
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 26, 2006, 09:11:25 PM
I absolutely hate it! While I can understand where they are coming from, would we be in agreeance that this is a good idea if a white institution banned it??  The answer to that would be a resounding HELL NAW!!!  The End!

Yeah, man. Its a racist policy whether it comes from HU or a white school IMO. Its particularly disgusting coming from Howard though. I remember earlier in the 60s when Howard ban the singing of the negro national anthem and when light skinned students got preference for admissions....Howard needs to do better with this whole conforming to society thing.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Inquirer on February 26, 2006, 09:16:04 PM
I think that banning ethnic hairstyles is ridiculous. No one ever forgets that you're black. It's not as though a perm makes you more appealing as a black employee to employers. As long as one's hair is well groomed and not distracting, what in the hell is the issue. Half the time, white people aren't even paying that much attention to your hair.

Have you ever had braids that were longer than your natural hair? If so, when you took them out, what was the complexion of the FIRST person that asked you if you cut your hair? For me, it was ALWAYS a white person (I've had natural hair for six years, so that problem was long ago eliminated).  Black people generally avoided asking questions about the change in my hair.  

People are paying attention. They - meaning employers - are paying attention to everything because there are probably A LOT of qualified candidates coming through the door, so if you don't fit the corporate image, you won't be getting the job.  Just as people with ethnic names are less likely to get hired than people with more mainstream names, people with hairstyles associated with "street culture" (thanks to myriad t.v. shows) are less likely to be seen as employable than those with more mainstream styles. The point is not about making a person LESS black, but more palatable to those whose focus might already be trained on the fact that one IS Black because those people are very likely the ones controlling whether the interviewee is going to be employed at that company.  

Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 26, 2006, 09:16:21 PM
are u serious??? I heard about the skin color issue but I didn't know Lift Every Voice and Sing was banned @ one point... :'(



Yeah, man. Its a racist policy whether it comes from HU or a white school IMO. Its particularly disgusting coming from Howard though. I remember earlier in the 60s when Howard ban the singing of the negro national anthem and when light skinned students got preference for admissions....Howard needs to do better with this whole conforming to society thing.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: M DOT on February 26, 2006, 09:16:43 PM
i really dont see the difference between locks and cornrows, women can pull em of fine, but after a certain length for men its just as "unprofessional" as zig zaging cornrows, although they can be sexy as hell

and i agree lite, im all for a ceasar or baldy
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: pass36 on February 26, 2006, 09:16:43 PM
If the point is that kids will get better jobs, then they will get still more and better jobs with white healthy teeth.  Should schools have flossing and brushing programs?
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Jigga00516 on February 26, 2006, 09:16:55 PM
I agree that this is BS. It is ridiculous that this is coming from two of the most well known HBCU's. Now Black students who want to express themselves culturally through their hair style and be business majors will have to  go...where? To predominantly white schools? Being in business school at a large state university I can say that even at a predominantly white school the business school encourages conformity and discourages students standing out or expressing themselves as far as appearance goes, but I guess somewhere deep down I would think a school like HU would be better than that. That does make me feel better about not going to HU in the first place, although I do not have braids or locs. Go Terps.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on February 26, 2006, 09:17:22 PM
Well cornrows are one thing. I mean they were popularized by Allen Iverson, not a model of corporate success (not for himself anyway, White folks make plenty money off him I'm sure). Locs on the other hand, don't seem to be associated with Lil Jon. As long as you don't look like Bob Marley, I'm not seeing the issue. In general, any kind of hair on men is seen as a distraction...white men can't wear long hair in the workplace either. On women though, another issue, don't see why a black woman cannot wear a neat head of locs. In the end though, White people still know you're black, none of this makes them "forget"...so, whatever.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nemesis on February 26, 2006, 09:18:33 PM
Ya, ok, AL. That's the problem with some of you school of B folk. You're willing to sell your soul to get into the door and then you forget who you are. Of course, I'm not trying to generalize - there are a number of exceptions. BUT I think the school of B teaches and reinforces conformity - and that's part of the problem. If Howard would back their students wearing ethnic hairstyles, corporations would still hire them. You know this...


That's why I doubt Howard would implement such a ban in the first place. And you are right (to a certain extent) about the School of Business reinforcing conformity. There are some hard truths to be faced when pursuing a career in business. As I metioned before, conformity is one of the most pronounced traits of certain industries and firms.

And while that IS changing, we still have to equip our students with a certain level of professionalism. If you are going to wear your hair in certain styles, it has to be neat. You don't wear certain shoes and/or suits to interviews. It's not selling your soul. It's adjusting to the demands of your field.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: M DOT on February 26, 2006, 09:20:17 PM
thats what counts making sure everything is in place and presentable

And while that IS changing, we still have to equip our students with a certain level of professionalism. If you are going to wear your hair in certain styles, it has to be neat. You don't wear certain shoes and/or suits to interviews. It's not selling your soul. It's adjusting to the demands of your field.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on February 26, 2006, 09:20:28 PM
Have you ever had braids that were longer than your natural hair? If so, when you took them out, what was the complexion of the FIRST person that asked you if you cut your hair? For me, it was ALWAYS a white person (I've had natural hair for six years, so that problem was long ago eliminated).  Black people generally avoided asking questions about the change in my hair.  

People are paying attention. They - meaning employers - are paying attention to everything because there are probably A LOT of qualified candidates coming through the door, so if you don't fit the corporate image, you won't be getting the job.  Just as people with ethnic names are less likely to get hired than people with more mainstream names, people with hairstyles associated with "street culture" (thanks to myriad t.v. shows) are less likely to be seen as employable than those with more mainstream styles. The point is not about making a person LESS black, but more palatable to those whose focus might already be trained on the fact that one IS Black because those people are very likely the ones controlling whether the interviewee is going to be employed at that company.  


People notice when you CHANGE your hair. That's diff than them paying special attention to it otherwise.


And just to be clear, I'm not making an 'expression' argument. I think that's bull. When you work in Corporate America, you don't get to "express" yourself. However, I don't think a hairstyle that is deemed ethnic is "expression". I mean that typical "perm" look that many Black women sport is still a far cry from the average white girls pageboy...Afro textured hair, even when chemically processed, still looks different than white hair. Black people's hair is diff than white people's hair (by and large) so if you're wearing a style that White ppl dont normally wear (like locs) I don't think that is in and of itself an issue.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 26, 2006, 09:22:11 PM
very true...

Ya, ok, AL. That's the problem with some of you school of B folk. You're willing to sell your soul to get into the door and then you forget who you are. Of course, I'm not trying to generalize - there are a number of exceptions. BUT I think the school of B teaches and reinforces conformity - and that's part of the problem. If Howard would back their students wearing ethnic hairstyles, corporations would still hire them. You know this...


That's why I doubt Howard would implement such a ban in the first place. And you are right (to a certain extent) about the School of Business reinforcing conformity. There are some hard truths to be faced when pursuing a career in business. As I metioned before, conformity is one of the most pronounced traits of certain industries and firms.

And while that IS changing, we still have to equip our students with a certain level of professionalism. If you are going to wear your hair in certain styles, it has to be neat. You don't wear certain shoes and/or suits to interviews. It's not selling your soul. It's adjusting to the demands of your field.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: crazy8 on February 26, 2006, 09:23:27 PM
I can't even say anything about this issue because I'm def. biased.  My man's hair should not take the same amt. of time to do as mine.  I could probably handle the dreads, but something about those cornrows.  Reminds me of Sunday evenings after dinner sitting down while my mom braided my hair for the week. :D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 26, 2006, 09:25:13 PM
Ya, ok, AL. That's the problem with some of you school of B folk. You're willing to sell your soul to get into the door and then you forget who you are. Of course, I'm not trying to generalize - there are a number of exceptions. BUT I think the school of B teaches and reinforces conformity - and that's part of the problem. If Howard would back their students wearing ethnic hairstyles, corporations would still hire them. You know this...


That's why I doubt Howard would implement such a ban in the first place. And you are right (to a certain extent) about the School of Business reinforcing conformity. There are some hard truths to be faced when pursuing a career in business. As I metioned before, conformity is one of the most pronounced traits of certain industries and firms.

And while that IS changing, we still have to equip our students with a certain level of professionalism. If you are going to wear your hair in certain styles, it has to be neat. You don't wear certain shoes and/or suits to interviews. It's not selling your soul. It's adjusting to the demands of your field.

See there you go again with buzz words. Professionalism, as if a black cultural style is inherently unprofessional. At one point African Americans themselves weren't allowed in Corporate America. We surely wouldn't have our students paint their faces white in an attempt to pacify professional standards. The analogy may seem outrageous, but I don't think it is.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nemesis on February 26, 2006, 09:25:38 PM
...hair and dress should matter less than ability..but if a person is walking in looking a certain way you know that the probability of them getting hired is slim regardless of their credentials.. it's an unfortunate reality....and will stay that way as long as more of us aren't at the top...


I think you make an EXCELLENT point.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Inquirer on February 26, 2006, 09:27:04 PM
CN...

Okay.  I see what you are saying.  I don't agree with the hair not being an issue, but I see your point.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 26, 2006, 09:27:56 PM
ok men.. aside from Leo..who's worn cornrows? and if you have not why did you choose not to grow out your hair?
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nemesis on February 26, 2006, 09:28:56 PM
See there you go again with buzz words. Professionalism, as if a black cultural style is inherently unprofessional. At one point African Americans themselves weren't allowed in Corporate America. We surely wouldn't have our students paint their faces white to attempt to pacify professional standards. The analogy may seem outrageous, but I don't think it is.


Well they teach the white, asian, Indian and other kids the same things at NYU and Yale so why not expose our students to the same *knowledge? We are already at a disadvantage and we need to equip ourselves with knowledge if we're ever going to catch up.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on February 26, 2006, 09:31:43 PM
CN...

Okay.  I see what you are saying.  I don't agree with the hair not being an issue, but I see your point.


It's not an issue if it's neat and groomed. I will say that cornrows are one thing - I don't think anyone can go into the work place with cornrows or with any type of braids, really, even on women. I think I'm arguing more for locs - I think black men and women can both get away with locks as long as they are groomed, evenly sized and spaced (aka cultivated locs) and not past shoulder length on men.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 26, 2006, 09:35:18 PM
...hair and dress should matter less than ability..but if a person is walking in looking a certain way you know that the probability of them getting hired is slim regardless of their credentials.. it's an unfortunate reality....and will stay that way as long as more of us aren't at the top...


I think you make an EXCELLENT point.

What if Martin Luther King, Jr or Malcolm X had that attitude? The Civil Rights Movement would have never been a success. The fact is nothing will change unless people are willing to challenge the standard. This is a common argument I hear from people, but the fact is, if we wait for more of us to get to the  top nothing will ever change because there will never be a critical mass of African Americans in power in Corporate America. That is the unfortunate reality.

Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 26, 2006, 09:42:27 PM
challenging the standard without being in a position of power is going to leave a lot of people unemployed... if more of us have our own financial resources  and communities..then the standard can be challenged....

the Civil Rights Movement.. and the ability to wear cornrows are two completely different things..

going back to my question.. .aside from Leo.. men.. who else has worn cornrows? if not why did you choose not to grow out your hair?

...hair and dress should matter less than ability..but if a person is walking in looking a certain way you know that the probability of them getting hired is slim regardless of their credentials.. it's an unfortunate reality....and will stay that way as long as more of us aren't at the top...


I think you make an EXCELLENT point.

What if Martin Luther King, Jr or Malcolm X had that attitude? The Civil Rights Movement would have never been a success. The fact is nothing will change unless people are willing to challenge the standard. This is a common argument I hear from people, but the fact is, if we wait for more of us to get to the  top nothing will ever change because there will never be a critical mass of African Americans in power in Corporate America. That is the unfortunate reality.


Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on February 26, 2006, 09:45:45 PM
challenging the standard without being in a position of power is going to leave a lot of people unemployed... if more of us have our own financial resources  and communities..then the standard can be challenged....


exactly. bills gotta get paid...JG, I can tell that you've never worked, a full time job tends to beat the idealism out of a person  ;D ...but you really can't martyr your own future just to make a point. I'm willing to bet you don't have cornrows...
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nemesis on February 26, 2006, 09:48:19 PM

What if Martin Luther King, Jr or Malcolm X had that attitude? The Civil Rights Movement would have never been a success. The fact is nothing will change unless people are willing to challenge the standard. This is a common argument I hear from people, but the fact is, if we wait for more of us to get to the  top nothing will ever change because there will never be a critical mass of African Americans in power in Corporate America. That is the unfortunate reality.




With that kind of defeatist attitude, why bother? There'll never be enough of us to make a change anyway? Women could have had the same attitude, but they didn't. They wore the pantsuits, hired nannies and now there are considerably more women represented in Corporate America. Now, they have maternity leave, on site child care etc.

We're already on the right track and I think that there will be considerable changes in the face of Corporate America in the next few years. There are people who are dedicated to making that change and are willing to put on the work and have the patience it requires.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 26, 2006, 09:52:10 PM
challenging the standard without being in a position of power is going to leave a lot of people unemployed... if more of us have our own financial resources  and communities..then the standard can be challenged....


exactly. bills gotta get paid...JG, I can tell that you've never worked, a full time job tends to beat the idealism out of a person  ;D ...but you really can't martyr your own future just to make a point. I'm willing to bet you don't have cornrows...

Do I know you? Cause I'm thinking you don't know anything about me. I've worked full time prior to undergrad and I've worked part time all through undergrad. And I for one know the personal sacrifice required for a greater principle. I've been there, done that. I wouldn't ask anyone to do anything that I wasn't willing to do. No I don't wear cornrows, but I've challenged authority and made personal sacrifice for the good of my community in ways you could never imagine. An opinion is one thing, but to call me out like you know me is another.

Edit: wow, i'm having a problem sounding angry on this thing. KB, I'm just saying my idealism comes from personal sacrifice and my opinion is grounded in what I've actually gone through. I'm not just some unrealistic idealistic 22 year old. Thats all.

Edit 2: I apologize at this post, its just unacceptable and immature. I would delete it, but I'm not a big fan of deleting posts. Plus annabel seems to agree with you ;D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 26, 2006, 09:59:36 PM
I wonder what Bell Hooks would think of Howard's policy.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on February 26, 2006, 10:05:20 PM
challenging the standard without being in a position of power is going to leave a lot of people unemployed... if more of us have our own financial resources  and communities..then the standard can be challenged....


exactly. bills gotta get paid...JG, I can tell that you've never worked, a full time job tends to beat the idealism out of a person  ;D ...but you really can't martyr your own future just to make a point. I'm willing to bet you don't have cornrows...

Do I know you? Cause I'm thinking you don't know anything about me. I've worked full time prior to undergrad and I've worked part time all through undergrad. And I for one know the personal sacrifice required for a greater principle. I've been there, done that. I wouldn't ask anyone to do anything that I wasn't willing to do. No I don't wear cornrows, but I've challenged authority and made personal sacrifice for the good of my community in ways you could never imagine. An opinion is one thing, but to call me out like you know me is another.

Edit: wow, i'm having a problem sounding angry on this thing. KB, I'm just saying my idealism comes from personal sacrifice and my opinion is grounded in what I've actually gone through. I'm not just some unrealistic idealistic 22 year old. Thats all.

Working in school and interning full time are not like working full time after you graduate. I did those things too, and also I railed against the people who told me that I would learn alot once I got out of school. I also thought/think that I knew/know everything, which is why I recognize it so easily in others  :D

At any rate, I'm not looking to turn this thread into one of those discussions. I agree with you in that the Howard thing is ridiculous, but I think the greater point being made in this thread is that change has to occur gradually. But sometimes I also feel that the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house. So I feel you.

Edit since you responded: You picked bell, and I picked Audrey Lorde. However, I'm willing to bet that bell probably acknowledges that if you wanna be a partner in a law firm rather than someone who makes a living off voicing their opinion, you'd better cut your hair.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 26, 2006, 10:05:42 PM
I hear what you're saying.. one of my professors from my ug has long locks..but I am certain that when he first started teaching higher education that wasn't the case...

I just believe it's going to be harder for a person with cornrows to get his foot in the door on wall street handling million dollar clients than a person that does not have cornrows.. unfortunately the top clients are older white men and women..unfortunately... in most cases they don't want to deal with us... in some cases they have no choice but to do so... but I am sure that they will not deal with cornrowed jacob when they can deal with brian with the caeser cut...

challenging the standard without being in a position of power is going to leave a lot of people unemployed... if more of us have our own financial resources  and communities..then the standard can be challenged....

the Civil Rights Movement.. and the ability to wear cornrows are two completely different things..

going back to my question.. .aside from Leo.. men.. who else has worn cornrows? if not why did you choose not to grow out your hair?


I know I'm not supposed to answer but my advisor's husband is a professor with outrageously long locks, and he just liked the style and thought it looked good on him.

Also, maybe I'm insane but I haven't seen how the hair thing has really been an issue, at least not for the people who've been in my environment. Maybe things will be different at a firm. The only person who has ever mentioned having a problem with my hair was my coach on mock trial, and that was quickly shut down.


Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 26, 2006, 10:10:25 PM
challenging the standard without being in a position of power is going to leave a lot of people unemployed... if more of us have our own financial resources  and communities..then the standard can be challenged....


exactly. bills gotta get paid...JG, I can tell that you've never worked, a full time job tends to beat the idealism out of a person  ;D ...but you really can't martyr your own future just to make a point. I'm willing to bet you don't have cornrows...

Do I know you? Cause I'm thinking you don't know anything about me. I've worked full time prior to undergrad and I've worked part time all through undergrad. And I for one know the personal sacrifice required for a greater principle. I've been there, done that. I wouldn't ask anyone to do anything that I wasn't willing to do. No I don't wear cornrows, but I've challenged authority and made personal sacrifice for the good of my community in ways you could never imagine. An opinion is one thing, but to call me out like you know me is another.

Edit: wow, i'm having a problem sounding angry on this thing. KB, I'm just saying my idealism comes from personal sacrifice and my opinion is grounded in what I've actually gone through. I'm not just some unrealistic idealistic 22 year old. Thats all.

Working in school and interning full time are not like working full time after you graduate. I did those things too, and also I railed against the people who told me that I would learn alot once I got out of school. I also thought/think that I knew/know everything, which is why I recognize it so easily in others  :D

At any rate, I'm not looking to turn this thread into one of those discussions. I agree with you in that the Howard thing is ridiculous, but I think the greater point being made in this thread is that change has to occur gradually. But sometimes I feel like the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house. So I feel you.

You're alright with me, KB. I think we're all going to have some interesting convos at Harvard *you, me, P, and AL.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nemesis on February 26, 2006, 10:12:43 PM

exactly. bills gotta get paid...JG, I can tell that you've never worked, a full time job tends to beat the idealism out of a person  ;D ...but you really can't martyr your own future just to make a point. I'm willing to bet you don't have cornrows...

Do I know you? Cause I'm thinking you don't know anything about me. I've worked full time prior to undergrad and I've worked part time all through undergrad. And I for one know the personal sacrifice required for a greater principle. I've been there, done that. I wouldn't ask anyone to do anything that I wasn't willing to do. No I don't wear cornrows, but I've challenged authority and made personal sacrifice for the good of my community in ways you could never imagine. An opinion is one thing, but to call me out like you know me is another.

Edit: wow, i'm having a problem sounding angry on this thing. KB, I'm just saying my idealism comes from personal sacrifice and my opinion is grounded in what I've actually gone through. I'm not just some unrealistic idealistic 22 year old. Thats all.

Edit 2: I apologize at this post, its just unacceptable and immature. I would delete it, but I'm not a big fan of deleting posts. Plus annabel seems to agree with you ;D

JG, you're a sweetheart -- you always let me win  ;)



CN, I don't think it about whether or not a person wears their hair a certain way. I think it's about whether or not a person should have the right to choose.

Even though I don't have locks, I think it sucks that people who do have to be faced with situations where their personal expression has cost them a job offer. That's just wrong. I think JG feels the same way.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 26, 2006, 10:13:12 PM
where is george jefferson? I wish he'd come here and give his .02. Alcibiades as well.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on February 26, 2006, 10:15:49 PM
Here's my perspective as a white male regarding cornrows v. locks.  This may be biased, this may be wrong, but that's not important -- it's the perception that matters because it doesn't matter how wrong the bosses are if they're the ones doing the hiring. 

I've always thought of cornrows as more of a "ghetto" style, like Allen Iverson, and locks as more of an ethnic, African style.  I don't know if this has any merit, but that's what, for me at least, first comes to mind.

This my perception of white people's perception. Thanks for confirming  :D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 26, 2006, 10:17:40 PM
mine too  :D

Here's my perspective as a white male regarding cornrows v. locks.  This may be biased, this may be wrong, but that's not important -- it's the perception that matters because it doesn't matter how wrong the bosses are if they're the ones doing the hiring. 

I've always thought of cornrows as more of a "ghetto" style, like Allen Iverson, and locks as more of an ethnic, African style.  I don't know if this has any merit, but that's what, for me at least, first comes to mind.

This my perception of white people's perception. Thanks for confirming  :D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 26, 2006, 10:18:14 PM
Here's my perspective as a white male regarding cornrows v. locks.  This may be biased, this may be wrong, but that's not important -- it's the perception that matters because it doesn't matter how wrong the bosses are if they're the ones doing the hiring. 

I've always thought of cornrows as more of a "ghetto" style, like Allen Iverson, and locks as more of an ethnic, African style.  I don't know if this has any merit, but that's what, for me at least, first comes to mind.

Dave, interesting that you bring this up. What do you mean by "ghetto" style? Is ghetto African American or poor? I'm just wondering because I've heard that used before. If you want, PM me and we can dialogue through there. I've always just wanted a white perspective on the issue of ghettoness...
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Muse on February 26, 2006, 10:18:28 PM
In my opinion, there is a huge difference between sporting locks and cornrows. Cornrows look ghetto and immature to me. On the other hand, there is a way to make locks look neat and professional, especially in a corporate environment. I don't think the institution should ban cornrows, but they should have seminars for students and understand the ramifications of their hairstyle. Granted that there are a lot of Afrocentric individuals on the board who will disagree with me but if you want to work in Corporate America you have to conform to a certain extent. Each company has a particular culture and CORNROWS may not be appropriate. My point is if you want to be stand out rebel against the "white man's" standards, then start your own damn company. Your blackness is not determined by how your hair is style but your state of mind!
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nemesis on February 26, 2006, 10:19:14 PM
Here's my perspective as a white male regarding cornrows v. locks.  This may be biased, this may be wrong, but that's not important -- it's the perception that matters because it doesn't matter how wrong the bosses are if they're the ones doing the hiring. 

I've always thought of cornrows as more of a "ghetto" style, like Allen Iverson, and locks as more of an ethnic, African style.  I don't know if this has any merit, but that's what, for me at least, first comes to mind.


 :D :D :D

You're BRAVE. But I think its good you threw this out here. Little things like general perception can have big consequences -- i.e. no job offer.

Therefore, remove your grill before the interview  :D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 26, 2006, 10:24:18 PM
In my opinion, there is a huge difference between sporting locks and cornrows. Cornrows look ghetto and immature to me. On the other hand, there is a way to make locks look neat and professional, especially in a corporate environment. I don't think the institution should ban cornrows, but they should have seminars for students and understand the ramifications of their hairstyle. Granted that there are a lot of Afrocentric individuals on the board who will disagree with me but if you want to work in Corporate America you have to conform to a certain extent. Each company has a particular culture and CORNROWS may not be appropriate. My point is if you want to be stand out rebel against confirm to the "white man's" standards, then start your own damn company. Your blackness is not determined by how your hair is style but your state of mind!

Yeah, I mean, I guess this is the right response if you want to work in Corporate America today. But my complaint mainly came from Howard embracing such a stance. Annabel, correct me if I'm wrong, but if Howard students wore cornrows the firms would still hire them, right? Howard is an institution that could allow pepope with different hairstyles to enter corporate America. But if Howard bans it to their students it is seen as a legitimate action on the part of companies to make an incorrect determination that black students wearing cornrows is unprofessional. I guess I'm not as mad at the individual conforming as I am at the institution legitimizing the conformity.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 26, 2006, 10:28:56 PM
my mother had a problem with it as well..so much so that she brought a perm kit to my dorm room my senior yr of college....at the end of the day I won that battle though.. it's unfortunate that her parents would tell her they'd disown her over her damn hair.. that's a much bigger problem than what howard is doing...

for the most part I haven't had any problems with my hair.. definitely had no problems during interviews or in the office... but I've received some crazy looks from some older black woman.. especially down in Houston.. it was more accepted in DC but I've received a few "you're going to have a hard time obtaining jobs with that style (not knowing there was already a position lined up I might add) ..."why'd you do that to your hair".. or my favorite..coming from my best friend's grandmother.. "u had such long beautiful hair"...


As I said earlier my friend submerged me in this discussion for a very long time b/c she wanted my advice on how to deal with her parents (who literally threatened to disown her if she got locks). The way I see it there are three groups of people who will be hiring.

Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 26, 2006, 10:31:33 PM
you aren't coming off as an ass... some black people think the exact same thing...

Dave, interesting that you bring this up. What do you mean by "ghetto" style? Is ghetto African American or poor? I'm just wondering because I've heard that used before. If you want, PM me and we can dialogue through there. I've always just wanted a white perspective on the issue of ghettoness...

What constitutes ghetto?  I don't know, I guess all the stereotypes.  Because, really, that's all it amounts to.  It's typically an African-American thing, I'd say, but that doesn't necesarily preclude white people either.  It's typically poor, but someone can definitely be rich and "ghetto" (think Allen Iverson and Snoop).   I also associate it with showboating and excessive bling (lol).  I don't mean to come across as an ass here.  Just trying to say what first comes to mind.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Muse on February 26, 2006, 10:35:08 PM
BLk..this is my gift to you.... ;D






(http://www.generalbeautysupply.com//i/hawsilnobasr.jpg)
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nemesis on February 26, 2006, 10:35:18 PM
Yeah, I mean, I guess this is the right response if you want to work in Corporate America today. But my complaint mainly came from Howard embracing such a stance. Annabel, correct me if I'm wrong, but if Howard students wore cornrows the firms would still hire them, right? Howard is an institution that could allow pepope with different hairstyles to enter corporate America. But if Howard bans it to their students it is seen as a legitimate action on the part of companies to make an incorrect determination that black students wearing cornrows is unprofessional. I guess I'm not as mad at the individual conforming as I am at the institution legitimizing the conformity.


Well, not every black person wears "natural" hairstyles. So, those that do are often looked over by the firms. I've seen several cases of this.

I can't say whether or not most of our students wearing natural hairstyles would reduce recruitment efforts.

As I mentioned earlier, I don't think Howard would implement such a ban -- but we have advised our students about the realities of certain haristyles. To a certain extent, we have to enforce a degree of conformity. I made a joke earlier about grills. But there are kids who come in with gold teeth, young men who wear earings, women that wear excessive jewelry and wear their skirts too short. We enforce conservative business attire. If we didn't implement things like that, I'm pretty sure our recruiters would leave in droves.

Hairstyle is a lot more intangible I guess, so I really can't give you a definite answer.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nemesis on February 26, 2006, 10:37:28 PM
I am watching CNN right now. I think they'll run the Howard clip shortly. Based on what I have read here, I find it disturbing that Howard would think to ban hairstyles instead of working to change the perceptions affiliated with them. They are taking the cowards way out in this case--conformity. I am not sure if I can hate Howard all that much for it though I stand against them. They realize a problem in the market and are trying to position their grads to move past it. Kids go to B-school in order to build careers not "find out who they are," and Howard has a responsibility to get them jobs. Could Howard really win this fight? Not if it wants to maintain its B-school. It is a battle between personal identity and corporate identity, and there no clear winner, only personal battles waged on differnt fronts.

I know that corporate America has its own set of ideals, but they shouldn't be unchanging. They will only change if people take stands. I don't know where the stand is to be taken. The B-school is one front, but the workplace is the other. I think my question is this: Is corporate America pushing everything toward white culture, or has corprate America created its own culture free from the grips of anything other than getting the deal done? It is possible that corporate culture has emerged from white culture as well, making the first question pretty empty. If corporate culture is eradicating any sense of self celebrated by any culture, then its fair in a bizarre way. If it wants to exclude African-American culture, it is racist :P

As I write this, I am thinking Howard should probably stay out of it.

I'll post more after I see the report.


JG has been dying for you to get online  :D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 26, 2006, 10:37:29 PM
i hate you >:(


BLk..this is my gift to you.... ;D






(http://www.generalbeautysupply.com//i/hawsilnobasr.jpg)
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Muse on February 26, 2006, 10:40:55 PM
HEHEHE :P
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 26, 2006, 10:41:23 PM
I am watching CNN right now. I think they'll run the Howard clip shortly. Based on what I have read here, I find it disturbing that Howard would think to ban hairstyles instead of working to change the perceptions affiliated with them. They are taking the cowards way out in this case--conformity. I am not sure if I can hate Howard all that much for it
it. Kids go to B-school in order to build careers not "find out who they are," and Howard has a responsibility to get them jobs. Could Howard really win this fight? Not if it wants to maintain its B-school. It is a battle between personal identity and corporate identity, and there no clear winner, only personal battles waged on differnt fronts.

I know that corporate America has its own set of ideals, but they shouldn't be unchanging. They will only change if people take stands. I don't know where the stand is to be taken. The B-school is one front, but the workplace is the other. I think my question is this: Is corporate America pushing everything toward white culture, or has corprate America created its own culture free from the grips of anything other than getting the deal done? It is possible that corporate culture has emerged from white culture as well, making the first question pretty empty. If corporate culture is eradicating any sense of self celebrated by any culture, then its fair in a bizarre way. If it wants to exclude African-American culture, it is racist :P

As I write this, I am thinking Howard should probably stay out of it.

I'll post more after I see the report.

excellent analysis.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nemesis on February 26, 2006, 10:42:15 PM
I was going to bed until I saw that  :D

JG to AL: My man GJ is online. Did you read his post? He's brilliant isn't he!?

I think JG's your biggest fan  ;) Now you two are gonna gang up on me!!!
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: lawstudent3 on February 26, 2006, 10:42:50 PM
JG to AL: My man GJ is online. Did you read his post? He's brilliant isn't he!?

I think JG's your biggest fan  ;) Now you two are gonna gang up on me!!!

JG is NOT GJ's biggest fan.  *I* am GJ's biggest fan. ;D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nemesis on February 26, 2006, 10:44:57 PM
JG has been dying for you to get online  :D

I find the whole thing funny. My job isn't exactly "corporate," but they want me to dress a certain way and keep my hair "cut.". More often than not I'll give 'em what they want. Every few days I'll come in rockin' jeans, Jordan's, and a mini-fro. Gets em every time :P


Every now and then I break out "the accent"  ;D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: lawstudent3 on February 26, 2006, 10:46:12 PM
BTW, GJ, I've hit 5000.  Time to flame away!
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 26, 2006, 10:46:27 PM
JG has been dying for you to get online  :D

I find the whole thing funny. My job isn't exactly "corporate," but they want me to dress a certain way and keep my hair "cut.". More often than not I'll give 'em what they want. Every few days I'll come in rockin' jeans, Jordan's, and a mini-fro. Gets em every time :P


Every now and then I break out "the accent"  ;D

especially when the girls at goldman called you ghetto...and you have straight hair. lol.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nemesis on February 26, 2006, 10:47:25 PM
I was going to bed until I saw that  :D

JG to AL: My man GJ is online. Did you read his post? He's brilliant isn't he!?

I think JG's your biggest fan  ;) Now you two are gonna gang up on me!!!

JG is impressive. He usually posts before I get a chance to, making it so I don't need to. Its fun in an annoying "he beat me" kinda way.

JG=GJ in reverse.

Coincidence? I think not!
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 26, 2006, 10:50:51 PM
CNN is taking really long with the howard report. Seems like we'll be last :P

surprise, surprise ;D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nemesis on February 26, 2006, 10:51:12 PM
especially when the girls at goldman called you ghetto...and you have straight hair. lol.


Why you putting my sh!t out there!?

But yeah, I went STRAIGHT to HR with that mess. And it was a teleconference so they didn't know what I looked like. They only knew I went to Howard.

Lesson: Always make sure the mute button is on  ;) :D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 26, 2006, 10:53:38 PM
I was gonna bow, but the king avatar is gone. I'll humbly present you with a guitar pick instead, great one :)

Oh, now you're just being silly.  I should be bowing to you.

hey! hey! get a room you two.

Moderator, stay on topic :P j/k, don't ban me, dave.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nemesis on February 26, 2006, 10:57:02 PM
hey! hey! get a room you two.

Moderator, stay on topic :P j/k, don't ban me, dave.


Ban his a$$ Dave, he's begging for it  :D


Hah hah you got corporatePWN3D.

Hey, EVERYONE is being corporatePWN3D.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nemesis on February 26, 2006, 10:58:14 PM
OK, it's 1:54 AM and they haven't shown the Howard report yet. Theyt said they were gonna show it. This isn't right.... Where is Carlos Watson when you need him...


Time for bed. You fellas have fun!
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nemesis on February 26, 2006, 11:00:32 PM
Can't argue this. I cannot wait until I have enough money to move to a random third-world country to live like a king.


I know right? I'm plan to buy my own island off the coast of Panama. You're welcome anytime  8)
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 26, 2006, 11:01:19 PM
I was gonna bow, but the king avatar is gone. I'll humbly present you with a guitar pick instead, great one :)

Oh, now you're just being silly.  I should be bowing to you.

hey! hey! get a room you two.

Moderator, stay on topic :P j/k, don't ban me, dave.

OK, it's 1:54 AM and they haven't shown the Howard report yet. Theyt said they were gonna show it. This isn't right.... Where is Carlos Watson when you need him...

Yeah i like Carlos. He's so well spoken....I mean he speaks so well. He's so well spoken. :D


Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 26, 2006, 11:02:43 PM
Yeah, I'm hittin the sack too.  You're on thin ice, Galt.  One more F-up and your ass is outta here. ;)

lol. Have a good one, dave. ;D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nemesis on February 26, 2006, 11:04:56 PM
Are you sure JG won't mind?


I'm pretty sure he'll try to convince you to vote me off the island...  :P
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 26, 2006, 11:06:47 PM
I was gonna bow, but the king avatar is gone. I'll humbly present you with a guitar pick instead, great one :)

Oh, now you're just being silly.  I should be bowing to you.

hey! hey! get a room you two.

Moderator, stay on topic :P j/k, don't ban me, dave.

OK, it's 1:54 AM and they haven't shown the Howard report yet. Theyt said they were gonna show it. This isn't right.... Where is Carlos Watson when you need him...

Yeah i like Carlos. He's so well spoken....I mean he speaks so well. He's so well spoken. :D




That is one of my favorites of all time. Classic.

mine too. On that note, I'm out man. I gotta an early morning appointment.  Excellent initial analysis once again though
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: pass36 on February 26, 2006, 11:11:02 PM
Hey GJ2 - I think when I saw it it was right after the bottom of the hour, 4:35 or so my time.  Good luck.  Email them and tell them about Black Television History Month!!  :D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Slow Blues on February 27, 2006, 06:19:16 AM
Dang, gone for 3 hours and miss the whole conversation :-\
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Alicat17 on February 27, 2006, 06:45:55 AM
Here's the text of the segment.. and its only about Hampton, not Howard.

Dredded Decision

CALLAWAY: You may not agree with your school's dress code. But try and defy it, and you could be sent home to change your look. Well, the same applies at a Virginia university. And as Gary Nurenburg reports, dredlocks and short skirts are out, if students want to stay in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GARY NURENBERG, CNN REPORTER: Hampton University graduate student Quentin Miles had a tough morning Friday.

QUENTIN MILES, HAMPTON GRADUATE STUDENT: I got up, had a decision to make, went and got my hair cut.

NURENBERG: His Mohawk became part of his hair history.

MILES: I've had cornrows, plats, two-string twists, gel twist.

NURENBERG: All statements about his individuality.

MILES: I didn't want to cut it and be seen as though I cut it to conform.

NURENBERG: But the MBA candidate has to conform if he wants to attend a weekly seminar with business leaders held at his historically black school; no cornrows, dreadlocks, or long braids.

SIDNEY CREDLE, HAMPTON UNIVERSITY DEAN: Its a strict business and dress code.

NURENBERG: Suits and ties, no tight or short skirts. Its been a requirement in the schools business administration program for the last six years.

CREDLE: We're developing professionals who will go into corporate America for the most part and so we don't want extreme hairstyles or extreme attire.

PAMELA FREEMAN: When we think of racism, we don't think of it happening within our own communities.

NURENBERG: Pamela Freeman founded cornrows and company in Washington D.C. After she lost a job because of her hairstyle in 1978.

FREEMAN: Here you have students who go to an African-American University because they're embracing their culture. And they're telling you we don't want to embrace our culture.

NURENBERG: Hampton says the policy isn't racist, that strict business attire can help students overcome the racial stereotypes they can encounter when looking for jobs.

CHEDLE: For this program we have 100 percent placement

NURENBERG: Some business diversity experts believe it's dated.

JOHN PEOPLES, GLOBAL LEAGUE MANAGEMENT: It sends the message that appearance is as, or more important than competence is.

NURENBERG: John Peoples says global competition forces companies to push appearances aside.

PEOPLES: They've got to make sure they're bringing in the best and the brightest people, regardless of how they look.

NURENBERG: At Hampton, some students don't see the dress code as a sacrifice of their heritage

SHAKORA LUCKETT, 4TH YEAR STUDENT, PRESIDENT OF THE LEADERSHIP APPLICATION PROGRAM: It's our thoughts and our ideals and our values and our experiences and our education that create the person we are not the way I wear my hair or the way don't wear it.

NURENBERG: It is, for these business students, a business decision.

QUENTIN : I understand that we live in a world that's not perfect and there are sacrifices we all have to make every day.

NURENBERG: Gary Nurenberg, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEO CLIP)


Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: cyberrev on February 27, 2006, 06:52:19 AM
my son (half white/half asian) has the absolute coolest dreadlocks ever.

and, he has been denied employment solely because of his hairstyle.

Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Slow Blues on February 27, 2006, 07:01:18 AM
Dang, gone for 3 hours and miss the whole conversation :-\

No, I am ready to pick it back up (instead of sleepwalking through my workday). How do you feel about it?

Well, Howard's got the right to implement any policy they please.

Working in corporate America, you trade off some of your identity for the privilege of working there. You can't talk in corporate America the way you might talk with your friends, you don't show up in baggy jeans and a wife-beater, you don't show up in Air Force 1s, you don't come in with tats on your neck, and you don't come in with your doo-rag on. These are accepted trade-offs. This isn't particular to blacks; in different ways, it applies across all races and cultures.

I don't think cutting off your cornrows automatically means you've sold out or stripped yourself of your culture. But by the same token, I never had them; my hair is too straight to braid properly, if you can believe it. And I think properly kept cornrows shouldn't thrown in the same boat as a neck tattoo.

At the end of the day, brothers and sisters need good jobs. I think sometimes if you want power, real, meaningful power, you have to make unpleasant sacrifices. I'd rather see a black man with a caesar at Goldman Sachs than a black man with cornrows at Long John Silver's. And bad as it is, that is basically the choice black men face. Truth be told, I don't know how to feel. All I know is I could not stand up here and say the black man who's traded his cornrows for a caesar is any less a black man than the one who keeps his cornrows.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Slow Blues on February 27, 2006, 07:11:39 AM
Ok, the filtering software changed sh*tty to bad. I could put a naked woman in my avatar but apparently I can't curse.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 27, 2006, 07:14:55 AM
you have me curious about what your son had to put in his hair in order to get his hair texture to lock...


my son (half white/half asian) has the absolute coolest dreadlocks ever.

and, he has been denied employment solely because of his hairstyle.


Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Slow Blues on February 27, 2006, 07:15:23 AM
Muse's avatar. I haven't been able to read anything she's said recently.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on February 27, 2006, 07:16:47 AM
you have me curious about what your son had to put in his hair in order to get his hair texture to lock...


Stop!  ;D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: The Sign on February 27, 2006, 07:19:10 AM
In my opinion, a hair style, unless it is outrageously distracting in some form, should never be an issue; I understand why the Universities (both Howard and Hampton)are rallying against some Ben Wallace kind of Afro or Allen Iverson type cornrows, and that has to do with image building. It is true that there are unwritten codes among employers that a potential employee is expected to be dressed and groomed in a certain way. Such codes usually reflect what is defined to be proper or normal by the dominant culture, often without taking into consideration obvious differences of cultures and preferences.    
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: The Sign on February 27, 2006, 07:22:35 AM
CN congrats on your acceptances so far.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 27, 2006, 07:32:28 AM
 :D what did I do?

you have me curious about what your son had to put in his hair in order to get his hair texture to lock...


Stop!  ;D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 27, 2006, 07:42:45 AM
I'm sure that none of us would wear some Timbs to our job...hair alone shouldn't be what makes a person an individual anyway.. if a person has to hide behind their hair to "stand out" then lord help them....you don't see any white guys on wall street with mohawks..and I certainly haven't seen any attorneys with mohawks or cornrows either...

In my opinion, a hair style, unless it is outrageously distracting in some form, should never be an issue; I understand why the Universities (both Howard and Hampton)are rallying against some Ben Wallace kind of Afro or Allen Iverson type cornrows, and that has to do with image building. It is true that there are unwritten codes among employers that a potential employee is expected to be dressed and groomed in a certain way. Such codes usually reflect what is defined to be proper or normal by the dominant culture, often without taking into consideration obvious differences of cultures and preferences.    
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on February 27, 2006, 07:59:54 AM
Thanks, the Sign.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 27, 2006, 08:05:40 AM
u knew what i meant  :D... you know what's hilarious to me? these booths set up at malls where they "cornrow" white girls' hair like it's the latest fad..

but I really am curious about what kind of gunk these people are putting in their hair to make it lock...



They probably avoid cornrows because of texture issues :P
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: THE BLUE SWEATER on February 27, 2006, 08:07:39 AM
Unforunatly from my experiences corporate america has its own dominant culture. You are doing yourself a incredible disadvantage by not conforming to it. You will not see cornrows in the boardroom any more than mohawks on white men or men with earrings. I myself have worked in private and govenment agencies. In corporate america men wear uniforms. Suits, shoes, colors, grooming, all of this is part of the corporate uniform. This is somthing howard realized a while ago when hey made the b school students be in business atire most of the time. Howard is just trying to give there students who are already the minority every chance possible to compete. Good for them for stepping out and making such a politically sensitive decision.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: The Sign on February 27, 2006, 08:08:10 AM
If all goes well, I would like to tutor the LSAT at Howard, but I don't know what it takes.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nemesis on February 27, 2006, 08:12:45 AM
Yeah, I agree with you. it is unfortunate though. corporate america will raid countries in efforts to globalize, but strip the "global" from the people it employs. Corporate America will also spin anything into sales/marketshare, but it won't share the cultures of those it markets to. I am just ranting at this point.

But I think, to a certain extent, corporate America embraces diversity. They have several diversity initiatives and strongly support and encourage affinity groups. I think firms are beginning to realize that without a diverse perspective, they are going to lose their ability to effectively serve their target markets (which continue to change drastically).

One of the biggest challenges in operating a global firm, however, is reconciling pre-conceived notions. We all have our little prejudices/stereotypes. And, to be honest, I think Americans in general are typically more ethnocentric when compared to other cultures (but that might be my own bias  ;) )
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Electric2006 on February 27, 2006, 08:14:22 AM
I think it is one thing to have these discussions with students about what is acceptable in the corporate workplace and strongly encourage your students to start making those decisions as soon as possible.  But it is a very strong statement for a HISTORICALLY BLACK university to place an outright ban on these hairstyles for business majors.  They are basically reinforcing and in the eyes of predominantly white corporations, lending a degree of legitimacy to the argument that these styles are indeed unprofessional.  

Granted I think any male over the age of 16 wearing conrows, needs to be smacked, but locs, come on now, and somehow saying Afros are okay is supposed to make it all better.  So if I wore my hair completely out in an Afro, which would stand well over a foot out from my head and is neat, that is more acceptable somehow than locs.  Or do they only mean afros about an inch or two long.

While I do believe that people need to make changes from within the corporations themselves, and in the words of india.arie I am not my hair, so I have pulled my hair back into buns for interviews, but as a black woman I already do not conform to the image of corporate america and will stand out regardless of what my hair looks like.  
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Alicat17 on February 27, 2006, 08:14:36 AM
In my opinion, its a shame that an HBCU of all organizations would impose this rule on their students.  It would be better if Hampton informed these students of the "risks" of entering corproate America with certain hairstyles so that the students can chose for themselves.  Requiring corporate attire is one thing, but hair is more of a grey area, and if students want to embrace natural hairstyles and are cognizant of all of the politics that go along with, Hampton shouldn't erect another obstacle IMO.

Personally, I've always rejected the advice to show up at job interviews in a skirt suit, becuase if I were to encounter an employer who would reject me because of a pantsuit, thats likely not a place I would want to work anyway.  I view my hair in the same way -- I've been natural/braided for the last few years and plan to loc in law school.  Despite the dominant culture, I have had great professional experiences, never viewed my hair as a problem (and it hasnt been for me) and I look foward to more of the same during and after law school.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: The Sign on February 27, 2006, 08:17:35 AM
Agreed!
In my opinion, its a shame that an HBCU of all organizations would impose this rule on their students.  It would be better if Hampton informed these students of the "risks" of entering corproate America with certain hairstyles so that the students can chose for themselves.  Requiring corporate attire is one thing, but hair is more of a grey area, and if students want to embrace natural hairstyles and are cognizant of all of the politics that go along with, Hampton shouldn't erect another obstacle IMO.

Personally, I've always rejected the advice to show up at job interviews in a skirt suit, becuase if I were to encounter an employer who would reject me because of a pantsuit, thats likely not a place I would want to work anyway.  I view my hair in the same way -- I've been natural/braided for the last few years and plan to loc in law school.  Despite the dominant culture, I have had great professional experiences, never viewed my hair as a problem (and it hasnt been for me) and I look foward to more of the same during and after law school.

Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: THE BLUE SWEATER on February 27, 2006, 08:20:21 AM
That is somthing I would like to see. If people conform to Howards rule..or "vote with there feet by attending elsewhere. From what was said too many dont see a problem with it. If it was going to be a big issue I think many would go elsewere. (I'm talking future classes..i dont think anyone would ttransfer in b school).
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: The Sign on February 27, 2006, 08:21:07 AM
Slowly, but surely, I am getting addicted to LSD. I better get away!
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Electric2006 on February 27, 2006, 08:31:14 AM
A question for those who do not have a problem with this new rule, would you feel the same way if Harvard Business School or Wharton implemented a similar policy banning conrows, locs, and let's say hair past the shoulders- that way it wouldn't only be predominantly black hairstyles.

Would it still be a non-issue, and just seen as giving students a taste of what they might see in corporate America?
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 27, 2006, 08:38:21 AM
If all goes well, I would like to tutor the LSAT at Howard, but I don't know what it takes.

I think you have to get a 160 or above on one of their LSAT practice exams. Then tell Kaplan you want to work for them. they'll hire you.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: The Sign on February 27, 2006, 08:41:04 AM
Are you sure JG? I am averaging 174 on the latest eight. That would be a dream come true to tutor at Howard.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 27, 2006, 08:41:42 AM
That is somthing I would like to see. If people conform to Howards rule..or "vote with there feet by attending elsewhere. From what was said too many dont see a problem with it. If it was going to be a big issue I think many would go elsewere. (I'm talking future classes..i dont think anyone would ttransfer in b school).

Nah, its not Howard. Its Hampton. And while people probably wouldn't stop attending Howard's B school (way too many advantages) there would be some serious protests. Granted, the protests' origin would probably come from the political science department and HUSA ;) and not so much the students in the school of B.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 27, 2006, 08:41:54 AM
I think the ban should be for cornrows... that's been my consistent argument.. and no I wouldn't have a problem if Wharton instituted that ban because again.. it's about the hair not the culture... now if Harvard instituted that ban I'd say that they'd have to ban mohawks as well.. since that isn't prevelant among black students I'm sure it isn't a problem at Howard..

A question for those who do not have a problem with this new rule, would you feel the same way if Harvard Business School or Wharton implemented a similar policy banning conrows, locs, and let's say hair past the shoulders- that way it wouldn't only be predominantly black hairstyles.

Would it still be a non-issue, and just seen as giving students a taste of what they might see in corporate America?
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 27, 2006, 08:43:59 AM
Are you sure JG? I am averaging 174 on the latest eight. That would be a dream come true to tutor at Howard.

Yeah, I'm positive. I was going to tutor at Howard, but I just didn't have the time. I heard the Kaplan teachers that currently do the course are horrible, so you'd likely be a welcome addition from the students' perspective considering you're scoring so highly. Good luck with that, man. Its good to see someone passionate about helping. Our students need all the help they can get with the LSAT.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: The Sign on February 27, 2006, 08:45:13 AM
Sorry for being out of topic, but is Kaplan's pay enough for DC (rent and food)?
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nemesis on February 27, 2006, 08:46:35 AM
Nah, its not Howard. Its Hampton. And while people probably wouldn't stop attending Howard's B school (way too many advantages) there would be some serious protests. Granted, the protests' origin would probably come from the political science department and HUSA ;) and not so much the students in the school of B.


Ummm, I would have you know that School of B students are very active on campus. Our current student council is by far one of the most effective I've seen on campus and the undergraduate trustee is a business student. Any such move would incite extreme protest -- we know how to handle our biz.

All you poli sci kids care about is getting into HLS  ;) :D

School of B kids are TRULY the future leaders of the global community.  ;D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: The Sign on February 27, 2006, 08:48:19 AM
That has always been my interest; each of us should help at least 5 students; so we will have both the quantity and the quality few years down the road.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 27, 2006, 08:49:10 AM
Sorry for being out of topic, but is Kaplan's pay enough for DC (rent and food)?

They pay very well, but unfortunately I think you only work for 3 nights a week for 3 or 4 hours. So no, not for rent in DC. With a 174, you could also teach at testmasters in DC while teaching at Kaplan and the combined income should be enough for rent/food/and a decent social life. I don't know if anyone has done it, but it should be possible. Most people I know supplement their LSAT teaching income with a part time job as well.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 27, 2006, 08:49:51 AM
doubt it seriously..

Sorry for being out of topic, but is Kaplan's pay enough for DC (rent and food)?
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: The Sign on February 27, 2006, 08:50:17 AM
OFF to sleep, I have been working all night. Have a good day everyone!
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 27, 2006, 08:51:02 AM
Nah, its not Howard. Its Hampton. And while people probably wouldn't stop attending Howard's B school (way too many advantages) there would be some serious protests. Granted, the protests' origin would probably come from the political science department and HUSA ;) and not so much the students in the school of B.


Ummm, I would have you know that School of B students are very active on campus. Our current student council is by far one of the most effective I've seen on campus and the undergraduate trustee is a business student. Any such move would incite extreme protest -- we know how to handle our biz.

All you poli sci kids care about is getting into HLS  ;) :D

School of B kids are TRULY the future leaders of the global community.  ;D


I bet you didn't write this with a straight face.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nemesis on February 27, 2006, 08:52:27 AM
A question for those who do not have a problem with this new rule, would you feel the same way if Harvard Business School or Wharton implemented a similar policy banning conrows, locs, and let's say hair past the shoulders- that way it wouldn't only be predominantly black hairstyles.

Would it still be a non-issue, and just seen as giving students a taste of what they might see in corporate America?

Actually, I think an outright ban on natural hairstyles would negatively affect recruitment. The main reason corporate America makes such an effort with respect to diversity initiatives and recruitment is because they are trying their darndest to overcome thier horrible reputation whenit comes to discrimination.

Such a policy may cause people not place even more blame on recruiting firms (especially if that's the reason these schools cite) and cause negative attention. What firm wants that reputation in today's business environment? Unspoken rules are one thing. An outright ban is something altogether.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nemesis on February 27, 2006, 09:00:01 AM
Most people assume that business majors are only passionate about making money -- but we are a diverse group and have many varied interests.

We are committed to giving back to the community, mentoring and tutoring. Not everyone works for Fortune 500 companies -- we work with non-profits, economic development agencies etc. Not only do we promote scholarship, but we also promote activism and entrepreneurship. Leadership is encouraged and reinforced at every level. I'm proud of my school and my peers.  8)
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 27, 2006, 09:08:24 AM
Most people assume that business majors are only passionate about making money -- but we are a diverse group and have many varied interests.

We are committed to giving back to the community, mentoring and tutoring. Not everyone works for Fortune 500 companies -- we work with non-profits, economic development agencies etc. Not only do we promote scholarship, but we also promote activism and entrepreneurship. Leadership is encouraged and reinforced at every level. I'm proud of my school and my peers.  8)

It's only marginally convincing because it is coming from you.

Edit: That's to say if it were another source, I'd dismiss it entirely. B-school people are all about getting paid. Not that lawyers are not.

Edit (2). OK, I am reaching a bit. Not all b-school people are bad.

No, man. No. It loses ALL credibility because its coming from AL. I love AL to death, but you can't trust anything she says when defending school of B. The sunglasses smiley at the end is a dead give away.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nemesis on February 27, 2006, 09:10:06 AM
It's only marginally convincing because it is coming from you.

Edit: That's to say if it were another source, I'd dismiss it entirely. B-school people are all about getting paid. Not that lawyers are not.

Edit (2). OK, I am reaching a bit. Not all b-school people are bad.


Well, you can be rich and give back too you know! And if you're FILTHY rich, well, all the more to give back  ;D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: John Galt on February 27, 2006, 09:10:40 AM
It's only marginally convincing because it is coming from you.

Edit: That's to say if it were another source, I'd dismiss it entirely. B-school people are all about getting paid. Not that lawyers are not.

Edit (2). OK, I am reaching a bit. Not all b-school people are bad.


Well, you can be rich and give back too you know! And if you're FILTHY rich, well, all the more to give back  ;D

i rest my case.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nemesis on February 27, 2006, 09:22:49 AM
It's only marginally convincing because it is coming from you.

Edit: That's to say if it were another source, I'd dismiss it entirely. B-school people are all about getting paid. Not that lawyers are not.

Edit (2). OK, I am reaching a bit. Not all b-school people are bad.


Well, you can be rich and give back too you know! And if you're FILTHY rich, well, all the more to give back  ;D

i rest my case.


Listen, there's no reason I can't organize a clothing drive from my yacht  ::)


jsia
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: cyberrev on February 27, 2006, 09:26:40 AM
I think the ban should be for cornrows... that's been my consistent argument.. and no I wouldn't have a problem if Wharton instituted that ban because again.. it's about the hair not the culture... now if Harvard instituted that ban I'd say that they'd have to ban mohawks as well.. since that isn't prevelant among black students I'm sure it isn't a problem at Howard..

A question for those who do not have a problem with this new rule, would you feel the same way if Harvard Business School or Wharton implemented a similar policy banning conrows, locs, and let's say hair past the shoulders- that way it wouldn't only be predominantly black hairstyles.

Would it still be a non-issue, and just seen as giving students a taste of what they might see in corporate America?



hey blk, the guy i saw interviewed about it on the news had a mohawk!
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: faith2005 on February 27, 2006, 10:26:09 AM
yeah alicat i totally agree with you. i wear my hair natural and sometimes even in cornrows. i think they look nice. and yeah i went ahead and got my hair blown out or whatever when i had an interview with a law firm, but to say that people can't wear their hair the way that they want in school? thats craziness that only black people would do to themselves. if a guy has cornrows and he's willing to take a hit for that stance, I say more power to him and his school should tell him the consequences and then get out of the way. And I don't wear skirt suits either!  :D

In my opinion, its a shame that an HBCU of all organizations would impose this rule on their students.  It would be better if Hampton informed these students of the "risks" of entering corproate America with certain hairstyles so that the students can chose for themselves.  Requiring corporate attire is one thing, but hair is more of a grey area, and if students want to embrace natural hairstyles and are cognizant of all of the politics that go along with, Hampton shouldn't erect another obstacle IMO.

Personally, I've always rejected the advice to show up at job interviews in a skirt suit, becuase if I were to encounter an employer who would reject me because of a pantsuit, thats likely not a place I would want to work anyway.  I view my hair in the same way -- I've been natural/braided for the last few years and plan to loc in law school.  Despite the dominant culture, I have had great professional experiences, never viewed my hair as a problem (and it hasnt been for me) and I look foward to more of the same during and after law school.

Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: crazy8 on February 27, 2006, 10:36:21 AM
yeah alicat i totally agree with you. i wear my hair natural and sometimes even in cornrows. i think they look nice. and yeah i went ahead and got my hair blown out or whatever when i had an interview with a law firm, but to say that people can't wear their hair the way that they want in school? thats craziness that only black people would do to themselves. if a guy has cornrows and he's willing to take a hit for that stance, I say more power to him and his school should tell him the consequences and then get out of the way. And I don't wear skirt suits either!  :D

In my opinion, its a shame that an HBCU of all organizations would impose this rule on their students.  It would be better if Hampton informed these students of the "risks" of entering corproate America with certain hairstyles so that the students can chose for themselves.  Requiring corporate attire is one thing, but hair is more of a grey area, and if students want to embrace natural hairstyles and are cognizant of all of the politics that go along with, Hampton shouldn't erect another obstacle IMO.

Personally, I've always rejected the advice to show up at job interviews in a skirt suit, becuase if I were to encounter an employer who would reject me because of a pantsuit, thats likely not a place I would want to work anyway.  I view my hair in the same way -- I've been natural/braided for the last few years and plan to loc in law school.  Despite the dominant culture, I have had great professional experiences, never viewed my hair as a problem (and it hasnt been for me) and I look foward to more of the same during and after law school.

I have my hair natural as well.  Right now it's twisted.  I never thought of the possibility of having to blow it out for an interview.  Though I did have this one white lady put her hand all up in my hair amazed at how I got the twists to stay!  :D She was like 70-yrs-old!!! ;D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: mivida2k on February 27, 2006, 10:37:25 AM
Has any one read  Hair Story: Untangling the Roots of Black Hair in America  By:  Ayana D. Byrd, Lori Tharps, Lori L. Tharps?

Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: crazy8 on February 27, 2006, 10:41:03 AM
Ywa I have, it's a good book.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 27, 2006, 11:18:26 AM
I've seldom gone to interviews in the traditional colored suits.. ie black/navy/gray... I will wear skirt suits but it really depends on the cut and style...I prefer to wear slacks during winter months
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Slow Blues on February 27, 2006, 11:37:04 AM
Personally, at my next interview I'll be rocking this

(http://img.costumecraze.com/images/vendors/rasta/7355-02-main.jpg)

I'll try to make sure my "stoodint ternt lawya" t-shirt is visible underneath.

I can't afford a grill, so I'll just wrap some aluminum foil around my teeth.

I'll be sure to set my dreads off with some blue highlights, some beads at the tips, and some glitter.

If they don't give me the job I'll be sure to sue them for racism and discrimination. Either way I gets paid in the end.

Don't hate.  ;)


Fool, you'll set us back 15 years
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 27, 2006, 11:43:28 AM
I can't think of the case..but there was one particular case where a black woman sued a firm in DC for discrimination towards her braids...
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nowhere Man on February 27, 2006, 12:43:49 PM
I think that banning is kind of strong, but I feel ALL men whether black or white NEED to keep their hair neat. Point blank!
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: mivida2k on February 27, 2006, 12:43:58 PM
I can't think of the case..but there was one particular case where a black woman sued a firm in DC for discrimination towards her braids...

I am not sure about that case but here is another one.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=6th&navby=case&no=99a0300p (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=6th&navby=case&no=99a0300p)
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: mivida2k on February 27, 2006, 12:47:58 PM
I think that banning is kind of strong, but I feel ALL men whether black or white NEED to keep their hair neat. Point blank!

You can have your hair "neat," and wear braids, conrows, afro, "dreads," etc.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: _BP_ on February 27, 2006, 12:50:10 PM
If the point is that kids will get better jobs, then they will get still more and better jobs with white healthy teeth.  Should schools have flossing and brushing programs?

I was trying to come up with a ridiculous analogy like this one.....thanks pass36.

It's just dumb imo.

Here's a ban I would like to see though:  Ban white people with dreads...now I'm all for that  :P
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nowhere Man on February 27, 2006, 12:55:02 PM
I think that banning is kind of strong, but I feel ALL men whether black or white NEED to keep their hair neat. Point blank!

You can have your hair "neat," and wear braids, conrows, afro, "dreads," etc.

I agree, but there are many people that wear braids and conrows that arent neat at all. Also there are many white men that let their hair grow out and it isnt neat.

Im just saying KEEP your neat.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Slow Blues on February 27, 2006, 12:57:16 PM
If the point is that kids will get better jobs, then they will get still more and better jobs with white healthy teeth.  Should schools have flossing and brushing programs?

I was trying to come up with a ridiculous analogy like this one.....thanks pass36.

It's just dumb imo.

Here's a ban I would like to see though:  Ban white people with dreads...now I'm all for that  :P

What about doo-rags?
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 27, 2006, 12:59:51 PM
now hold on now.. I don't like cornrows..but I'm not going to say that guys aren't going to have their hair "neat"...especially in a situation where they are trying to get professional corporate jobs... in fact a man or woman may be more conscious of keeping their hair "neat" with these styles in a corporate setting than a guy with a tapered cut or a woman with a perm... it's easier to overlook a person needing an edge up over having massive new growth with locs or cornrows...

hell half an inch of new growth makes all the difference in the way that I choose to style my hair for work when I'm too lazy to twist my roots...

I think that banning is kind of strong, but I feel ALL men whether black or white NEED to keep their hair neat. Point blank!
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 27, 2006, 01:01:27 PM
that gets my vote as well... that is so irritating to me.. UGH...




Here's a ban I would like to see though:  Ban white people with dreads...now I'm all for that  :P
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Young Esq. on February 27, 2006, 01:31:09 PM
OK point blank long hair on men (except dreads) will get you passed over for a job in business every time. Even dreads will get you passed over half the time for men. The business world is very conservative, and it doesn't help our people financially to try to buck the system. I was actually passed for internships due to my hair until I cut it. The University is supposed to prepare you to enter the work force. They are doing you a disservice if they allow you to believe that your individuality won't hurt you. It is not just a racial issue either. White with long hair and beards are discriminated against also. So don't try to make it racial, it is just the business culture and the University should prepare itself accordingly. Way to go Howard and Hampton. My UG Winston-Salem state also discourages long hair. They can't ban hair because it's public, but they will let you know about yourself in a stern manor.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Alicat17 on February 27, 2006, 01:44:31 PM
Hey Young -- What are your thoughts on Hampton's ban on ALL locs for women as well as men, and braids as well?  Appropriate or excessive?
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: faith2005 on February 27, 2006, 01:55:57 PM
thats crazy young--you know you have friends with locs who work all up and in the corporate world. (imo) hbcus are always tryna tell their students what white people are like, when oftentimes i feel like white folks ain't even on it like that.

oh and speaking of edge-ups--has anybody else noticed the extreme lack of edge-ups among conservative black men? older ones especially? i feel like its a trend, one of my friends said he'd know he made it when he just stopped getting an edge-up.  :D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: faith2005 on February 27, 2006, 02:05:03 PM
look ladies, i'm not saying you have to do it. i did it, and i don't think it really made any difference. i usually have my hair twisted, i hadn't had it straight since december 2004--and i can't keep it that way for more than a week or two. i figured i'd try it again, and at the same time get the ends trimmed. but personally I think that most law firms will hire you if they want to with twists. i do think an angela davis fro might get you some looks though. but who knows?

yeah alicat i totally agree with you. i wear my hair natural and sometimes even in cornrows. i think they look nice. and yeah i went ahead and got my hair blown out or whatever when i had an interview with a law firm, but to say that people can't wear their hair the way that they want in school? thats craziness that only black people would do to themselves. if a guy has cornrows and he's willing to take a hit for that stance, I say more power to him and his school should tell him the consequences and then get out of the way. And I don't wear skirt suits either!  :D

In my opinion, its a shame that an HBCU of all organizations would impose this rule on their students.  It would be better if Hampton informed these students of the "risks" of entering corproate America with certain hairstyles so that the students can chose for themselves.  Requiring corporate attire is one thing, but hair is more of a grey area, and if students want to embrace natural hairstyles and are cognizant of all of the politics that go along with, Hampton shouldn't erect another obstacle IMO.

Personally, I've always rejected the advice to show up at job interviews in a skirt suit, becuase if I were to encounter an employer who would reject me because of a pantsuit, thats likely not a place I would want to work anyway.  I view my hair in the same way -- I've been natural/braided for the last few years and plan to loc in law school.  Despite the dominant culture, I have had great professional experiences, never viewed my hair as a problem (and it hasnt been for me) and I look foward to more of the same during and after law school.

I have my hair natural as well.  Right now it's twisted.  I never thought of the possibility of having to blow it out for an interview.  Though I did have this one white lady put her hand all up in my hair amazed at how I got the twists to stay!  :D She was like 70-yrs-old!!! ;D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Young Esq. on February 27, 2006, 02:14:20 PM
Hey Young -- What are your thoughts on Hampton's ban on ALL locs for women as well as men, and braids as well?  Appropriate or excessive?


I think banning Locks all together is wrong. Althoug you may be black balled, locks often have meaning and should not be banned. However, the Locks need to be extremely well kept in order not to offend employers. 
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Young Esq. on February 27, 2006, 02:18:11 PM
oh and speaking of edge-ups--has anybody else noticed the extreme lack of edge-ups among conservative black men? older ones especially? i feel like its a trend, one of my friends said he'd know he made it when he just stopped getting an edge-up.  :D

LOL, that is so true. That to me is a white boy complex. Many don't want to come back to the hood to get that edge up. Mine may go rough for financial reasons at times, but when it comes time to networking and being seen the shape up must be tight with the Fade on the Neck (DC knows what I'm talking about  ;D )
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: cyberrev on February 27, 2006, 04:02:18 PM
that gets my vote as well... that is so irritating to me.. UGH...




Here's a ban I would like to see though:  Ban white people with dreads...now I'm all for that  :P



my son <half white/asian> looks really good in his dreads, thank you
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: pass36 on February 27, 2006, 04:36:51 PM
If the point is that kids will get better jobs, then they will get still more and better jobs with white healthy teeth.  Should schools have flossing and brushing programs?

I was trying to come up with a ridiculous analogy like this one.....thanks pass36.

It's just dumb imo.

Here's a ban I would like to see though:  Ban white people with dreads...now I'm all for that  :P

Can you throw in the little "soul patch" goatees also?

Don't adults usually figure out what sort of look works for them and what doesn't?

Although I have to admit I was curious what would happen to a white guy at Howard who did wear cornrows for his classes/interviews....
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 27, 2006, 05:23:51 PM
and I ask again what on God's Earth did he put in his hair in order for it to lock??? asian and white? come on now.. I'm not trying to be an a$$hole but there's no way in hell that his hair locked naturally without any aids...

that gets my vote as well... that is so irritating to me.. UGH...




Here's a ban I would like to see though:  Ban white people with dreads...now I'm all for that  :P



my son <half white/asian> looks really good in his dreads, thank you
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 27, 2006, 05:37:05 PM
yes girl... :D that's basically what i was saying earlier...



oh and speaking of edge-ups--has anybody else noticed the extreme lack of edge-ups among conservative black men? older ones especially? i feel like its a trend, one of my friends said he'd know he made it when he just stopped getting an edge-up.  :D

now Young you know I had to come at you on the locks being well kept not to offend employees statement right? Locks should be maintained for the sake of good hygiene... and a person should want to leave the house with their hair on point (provided they can't wear a hat or headwrap ;)) if an employee is going to be offended by locks it won't be because there's half an inch to an inch of extra new growth... they'll be irritated by it regardless....

Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Young Esq. on February 27, 2006, 05:44:03 PM
yes girl... :D that's basically what i was saying earlier...



oh and speaking of edge-ups--has anybody else noticed the extreme lack of edge-ups among conservative black men? older ones especially? i feel like its a trend, one of my friends said he'd know he made it when he just stopped getting an edge-up.  :D

now Young you know I had to come at you on the locks being well kept not to offend employees statement right? Locks should be maintained for the sake of good hygiene... and a person should want to leave the house with their hair on point (provided they can't wear a hat or headwrap ;)) if an employee is going to be offended by locks it won't be because there's half an inch to an inch of extra new growth... they'll be irritated by it regardless....



I agree somewhat but there is a lot that goes into dreads as far as males are concerned. And employers can get away with discriminating because the make the Good Ol' Boys shave and have the haircuts also.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 27, 2006, 05:47:43 PM
a lot like what? and do u think that locks are dreadful? (i absolutely loathe the whole "dreadlock" reference) can't help it though... it's what people have been conditioned to call them for yrs... not your fault



I agree somewhat but there is a lot that goes into dreads as far as males are concerned. And employers can get away with discriminating because the make the Good Ol' Boys shave and have the haircuts also.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Young Esq. on February 27, 2006, 05:54:22 PM
a lot like what? and do u think that locks are dreadful? (i absolutely loathe the whole "dreadlock" reference) can't help it though... it's what people have been conditioned to call them for yrs... not your fault

That is totally my fault. I have been corrected on that before. The term is Locks. I didn't get corrected until this summer so I still slip from time to time. The correct term is Locks. And when I say a lot as a male you have to be disciplined, as most males aren't when it comes to hair and fashion in general. But if you can do it than I have no problem with it. But if they have no symbolic purpose then I would say bite the bullet and cut them and if they do have purpose make sure you articulate that in the interviews if asked. An implicitly if not asked.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: M DOT on February 27, 2006, 05:55:00 PM
dread is a negative connotation that started with the british when they colonized the west indies, just like dropping an n bomb
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 27, 2006, 06:00:54 PM
I always add an addendum to my resume that states "Will not cut hair"....
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Young Esq. on February 27, 2006, 06:01:38 PM
I also retract my softness of Locks in Corperate America. I have never seen anyone with long hair (white or black) working in management in a fortune 500 company. So if you want to revolt that is cool (im down) but its not happening right now and your setting yourself up (as a male) if you try to get away with it. If you want Locks your best bet is to own your own business. This does not go for women, because the issue is more hair length for males and not Locks. OK I'm done.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 27, 2006, 06:14:18 PM
funny thing..they actually have an AKC breed of dogs that have locks... called the Komondor.. look like mops to me.. or um... those different hair textured people with locks...  :-X (http://www.doylerogers.com/images/NY-Komondor.jpg)
But the real question is:  should this be banned?

(http://www.strangezoo.com/images/content/16864.JPG)
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: petitschoque on February 27, 2006, 06:39:32 PM
Personally, I've always rejected the advice to show up at job interviews in a skirt suit, becuase if I were to encounter an employer who would reject me because of a pantsuit, thats likely not a place I would want to work anyway.  I view my hair in the same way -- I've been natural/braided for the last few years and plan to loc in law school.  Despite the dominant culture, I have had great professional experiences, never viewed my hair as a problem (and it hasnt been for me) and I look foward to more of the same during and after law school.
Ditto.

I also don't understand what people mean when they say cornrows are ghetto. Is it the technique itself--flat braids along the scalp--that is ghetto? Or are the variations (zig-zag, wild parts, curled like snakes and all over the place) that certain tacky individuals wear what's considered ghetto? I've been natural since I was 13, which is forever and a day, and I went on all my job interviews both during my break from college and out of college with one of two styles 1) my hair cornrowed straight back into a carefully-picked, perfectly round pony puff at the base of my skull OR 2) my hair just pulled straight back (no cornrows) into a low picked-out pony puff. It was the natural-haired equivalent of the common bun at the base of the skull. I had never received so many compliments in my life and these were very conservative, very white workplaces. I know I was the very image of corporate conservatism. So for the life of me, I can't imagine banning cornrows because of some weird patterns that some individuals create. Its not as if Iverson-like cornrows are all there is to the style ???

Whatever anyway. Howard isn't a place I can ever see myself visiting, talk less of attending so if they want to impose such racist standards on their students, whatever. I can't understand why they don't just come out and say (like many black--never non-black--people have to me) that natural hair is a problem instead of pretending that the issue is dreads and cornrows, as if those styles can't be neat and professional. There's something to be said for honesty.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: crazy8 on February 27, 2006, 06:58:29 PM
dread is a negative connotation that started with the british when they colonized the west indies, just like dropping an n bomb

Lex,

Dread is not a negative connotation for rastafarians of caribbean descent.  I have quite a few family members who are Nyabinghi and Bobo Ashanti who greet each other by saying "what a gwan dread?"

Just wanted to clarify.  In case you;ll ever make your way to Jamaica, you will not offend someone by saying they have dreadlocks or calling them a dread ;)
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: M DOT on February 27, 2006, 07:03:12 PM
cool thats just what my friends of jamaican decent have told me, the same goes for yardie....how bout coolie for trini's who are of indian decent?

dread is a negative connotation that started with the british when they colonized the west indies, just like dropping an n bomb

Lex,

Dread is not a negative connotation for rastafarians of caribbean descent.  I have quite a few family members who are Nyabinghi and Bobo Ashanti who greet each other by saying "what a gwan dread?"

Just wanted to clarify.  In case you;ll ever make your way to Jamaica, you will not offend someone by saying they have dreadlocks or calling them a dread ;)
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: crazy8 on February 27, 2006, 07:14:12 PM
No coolie is offensive  :-\ Most Trini's don't really get bothered by it, but calling Jamaicans of Indian descent coolie is somewhat derrogatory though they probably wouldn't say anything about it.

My cultural lesson of the day  :D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: _BP_ on February 27, 2006, 07:21:35 PM
thats crazy young--you know you have friends with locs who work all up and in the corporate world. (imo) hbcus are always tryna tell their students what white people are like, when oftentimes i feel like white folks ain't even on it like that.

oh and speaking of edge-ups--has anybody else noticed the extreme lack of edge-ups among conservative black men? older ones especially? i feel like its a trend, one of my friends said he'd know he made it when he just stopped getting an edge-up.  :D

I've said it a million times.  Never trust a black man without an edge up. 
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: M DOT on February 27, 2006, 07:27:14 PM
yeah i know that, trust and believe i think there were two of us out of my group of friends from undergrad that werent of carribean decent, im just saying that the word dread started as an offensive term by the british towards those who wore them, i would never use the word myself b/c that im not and i dont want anyone to go off just in case they think im being an ass.  two ppl i know who are trini; half black and indian both say that coolie is not cool to use.....

but i also know never to assume anyone is anything that theyre not whteher it be a trini for a jamaican person or a jamaican for a hatian or bajan, cats get personal with it

junior year my friend schooled me in jamaican patois so i could keep up with the constant flow of dancehall that was being pumped throughout our place, needless to say i dont have to listen to a song 50 times anymore in order to know what's going on

No coolie is offensive  :-\ Most Trini's don't really get bothered by it, but calling Jamaicans of Indian descent coolie is somewhat derrogatory though they probably wouldn't say anything about it.

My cultural lesson of the day  :D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: M DOT on February 27, 2006, 07:28:06 PM
yeah, im with that...i also say not to trust a black person with a nose job....except for patti labelle  ;)

I've said it a million times.  Never trust a black man without an edge up. 
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: cyberrev on February 27, 2006, 08:08:31 PM
and I ask again what on God's Earth did he put in his hair in order for it to lock??? asian and white? come on now.. I'm not trying to be an a$$hole but there's no way in hell that his hair locked naturally without any aids...

that gets my vote as well... that is so irritating to me.. UGH...




Here's a ban I would like to see though:  Ban white people with dreads...now I'm all for that  :P



my son <half white/asian> looks really good in his dreads, thank you


i'm sorry, blk, i didnt see that you asked before.  he used the wax that came in the kit from dreadhead, originally.  i guess it's trained now because he's had them for over a year.  he has really thick hair like his mom.  if i could figure out how to put a pic on this board i'd show you  ;D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 27, 2006, 08:18:19 PM
what is dreadhead ???
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Nemesis on February 27, 2006, 08:28:06 PM
No coolie is offensive  :-\ Most Trini's don't really get bothered by it, but calling Jamaicans of Indian descent coolie is somewhat derrogatory though they probably wouldn't say anything about it.

My cultural lesson of the day  :D


Coolie is definitely offensive -- it's the equivalent of the N word to a black person.

Interestingly, we don't think Negro is offensive. I used that word quite freely before I realized it was a bad thing here :-\
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: cyberrev on February 28, 2006, 07:06:45 AM
what is dreadhead ???


it's a company that markets dread-related products.  http://www.dreadheadhq.com

one of the better companies, in my opinion.  my son had some stuff leak in shipment, and they replaced everything, plus threw in some coupons and free stuff.  that was cool.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: cyberrev on February 28, 2006, 07:09:50 AM
No coolie is offensive  :-\ Most Trini's don't really get bothered by it, but calling Jamaicans of Indian descent coolie is somewhat derrogatory though they probably wouldn't say anything about it.

My cultural lesson of the day  :D


Coolie is definitely offensive -- it's the equivalent of the N word to a black person.

Interestingly, we don't think Negro is offensive. I used that word quite freely before I realized it was a bad thing here :-\


The word may derive from the Chinese word 苦力 kǔ lì which literally means "bitterly hard (use of) strength". However, Webster's New World Dictionary of the English Language traces it back to the Hindi qūlī, which means "hired laborer." Other forms occur in the Bengali, kuli and the Tamil, kuli, "daily hire."

In India, "coolie" refers to porters who work at railway stations. In Trinidad and Tobago, Guyana and other parts of the Caribbean, as well as Sri Lanka and South Africa, the word is considered an offensive racial slur on par with "n"

it was used a lot in american history for chinese immigrants who worked on the railways

Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: crazy8 on February 28, 2006, 07:19:17 AM
Thanks for the history lesson Rev!  :D
No coolie is offensive  :-\ Most Trini's don't really get bothered by it, but calling Jamaicans of Indian descent coolie is somewhat derrogatory though they probably wouldn't say anything about it.

My cultural lesson of the day  :D


Coolie is definitely offensive -- it's the equivalent of the N word to a black person.

Interestingly, we don't think Negro is offensive. I used that word quite freely before I realized it was a bad thing here :-\


The word may derive from the Chinese word 苦力 kǔ lì which literally means "bitterly hard (use of) strength". However, Webster's New World Dictionary of the English Language traces it back to the Hindi qūlī, which means "hired laborer." Other forms occur in the Bengali, kuli and the Tamil, kuli, "daily hire."

In India, "coolie" refers to porters who work at railway stations. In Trinidad and Tobago, Guyana and other parts of the Caribbean, as well as Sri Lanka and South Africa, the word is considered an offensive racial slur on par with "n"

it was used a lot in american history for chinese immigrants who worked on the railways


Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: cyberrev on February 28, 2006, 07:25:49 AM
i cant help it....once a teacher, always a teacher  ;D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 28, 2006, 07:32:47 AM
I see...interesting site...that whole backcombing thing is something I've never heard of...or imagined to be done... and lice? :o wow...

I just used some regular hair oil... and pommade oil...and let the process lock on its own...

what is dreadhead ???


it's a company that markets dread-related products.  http://www.dreadheadhq.com

one of the better companies, in my opinion.  my son had some stuff leak in shipment, and they replaced everything, plus threw in some coupons and free stuff.  that was cool.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: cyberrev on February 28, 2006, 07:36:30 AM
I see...interesting site...that whole backcombing thing is something I've never heard of...or imagined to be done... and lice? :o wow...

I just used some regular hair oil... and pommade oil...and let the process lock on its own...

what is dreadhead ???


it's a company that markets dread-related products.  http://www.dreadheadhq.com

one of the better companies, in my opinion.  my son had some stuff leak in shipment, and they replaced everything, plus threw in some coupons and free stuff.  that was cool.



unfortunately, my son had no mentors in this process <lol>, he had to figure it all out by himself.  however i helped him color the tips, it was a real father-son bonding moment!

he was the only one in his entire hs with an alternative hairstyle.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Andromeda on February 28, 2006, 08:22:09 AM
What I can't seem to understand is how us blacks continue to make excuses for ourselves. Wearing corn-rows is VERY unprofessional, to an extent I would also agree that dreads are unprofessional. I can understand how everyone is directing their anger at Howard for advocating through their ban, conformity to white America (whatever the heck that means). It still doesn't change the fact that, for us as black people to change the status quo in corporate America we would first have to conform to the expectations of corporate America.

I can see how HOward might have low recruiting numbers, and to improve the rep of the business school, thet have decided (after lots of Research I bet), that having corn rows and locks might be the root cause. I am not sure why they would ban it for students while they are still in school, I guess they might have done it to ensure that the students cannot rapidly grow out their hair come time for recruiting or summer jobs.

All that said, I think us blacks make too much noise about individuality, just because we continually harp on being marginalied/discriminated against by white folks, and hence to us, our individuality is what we have left to hold onto. But the sooner we realize that we have to play by the unwritten rules put in place by the white man, we would never collectively get to the top to change the rules for generations to come!
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Andromeda on February 28, 2006, 08:22:51 AM
and I ask again what on God's Earth did he put in his hair in order for it to lock??? asian and white? come on now.. I'm not trying to be an a$$hole but there's no way in hell that his hair locked naturally without any aids...

that gets my vote as well... that is so irritating to me.. UGH...




Here's a ban I would like to see though:  Ban white people with dreads...now I'm all for that  :P



my son <half white/asian> looks really good in his dreads, thank you

I know white people go to the stores, and wax is used to lock their hair!
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: petitschoque on February 28, 2006, 10:29:33 AM
What I can't seem to understand is how us blacks continue to make excuses for ourselves. Wearing corn-rows is VERY unprofessional, to an extent I would also agree that dreads are unprofessional.
What kinds of cornrows are you talking about when you say this? Do you mean crazy cornrows like the ones that are in vogue with youths into hiphop? Or do you think the style is inherently unprofessional no matter how it is done?
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Jigga00516 on February 28, 2006, 11:23:30 AM
Quote from: Andromeda on Today at 11:22:09 AM
What I can't seem to understand is how us blacks continue to make excuses for ourselves. Wearing corn-rows is VERY unprofessional, to an extent I would also agree that dreads are unprofessional.


Haha, WOW...What I cannot understand is how someone who is apparently Black could make such an ignorant statement, saying cornrows and dreads, two hairstyles which have forever been a part of our cultural expression, are unprofessional. You mean white people might not approve, right? Maybe you need to take a class or two...or 10 about Black culture in both the United States and around the world. When neatly done, an individual can look very professional in either one of these hairstyles. I don't think anyone here would be defending those who would look sloppy and unkempt in appearance, but to suggest that to be Black and have a certain hairstyle automatically makes you that is foolish, and anyone making that statement either already has prejudices towards Black people and Black culture, or simply does not know enough Black people, or much about the culture.

Also, just for clarification since I did not read the initial article, is this pertaining to both males and females?
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Andromeda on February 28, 2006, 11:33:30 AM
What I can't seem to understand is how us blacks continue to make excuses for ourselves. Wearing corn-rows is VERY unprofessional, to an extent I would also agree that dreads are unprofessional.
What kinds of cornrows are you talking about when you say this? Do you mean crazy cornrows like the ones that are in vogue with youths into hiphop? Or do you think the style is inherently unprofessional no matter how it is done?

I think the style is inherently unprofessional in CORPORATE America no matter how it is done. I have braided my hair to work at a T4 firm (Consulting) don't get me wrong, but the last thing I would ever do is take corn-rows into work. First off, your clients are still trying to adjust to having a black person work with them, corn rows might not put you on the chopping block with the client, but will DEFINITELY put you in hot water with your firm, as to the "PROFESSIONAL" image they try to maintain.

It's a white man's world, until we start to deal with it and play by their rules, we would never change it!
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 28, 2006, 11:38:33 AM
I'll bite.. I think that any cornrows that have the scalp exposed are unprofessional for "corporate jobs".. no matter what kind of suit ludacris puts on for an event to celebrate Crash with Cheadle, Howard etc..or how intelligent he may be..he sticks out like a sore thumb....

I don't think that the Alicia Keyes of old (with Dangelo cornrows i might add) would have looked prim and proper in a business suit..

call it pretentious if you want I just believe there's a certain standard that we have to hold ourselves up to IF we plan on going corporate..

now on the flip side of that....the style that faith was talking about with the blowout or the front rowed is definitely accepted in certain places (but if I see a man with that I'm telling you now I will laugh at him)...DC for example is more accepting of this... however it still isn't something that I'd do.. it's a matter of personal preference...

still can't say that I've seen one man on the corporate side of things with cornrows...
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on February 28, 2006, 11:42:34 AM
I'm with blk - it is 1. the particular style and 2. whether its a man or woman. Men can't wear cornrows - period - it is long hair and long hair is really not acceptable on men in corporate america, regardless of race. This goes for locks too but I think a dude could possibly get by with those, depending on the workplace and his particular look.  Even white men need to keep it trim and tapered, too long and shaggy, or any of those gelled/slicked up styles will get you a talking to. 2ndly, zig zags and all that drama is not professional - it's not a racial issue, its a hairstyle issue, there are plenty of hairstyles that white people can wear that are not professional. Princess Leia buns and mohawks come to mind. Not say that race has nothing to do with standards of professionalism - we all know that it does, but some stuff is not acceptable for work no matter how you cut it.

I know this somewhat contradictory to my earlier posts - but I thought about it more in depth, and particularly, the gender issue wasn't talked about too much and I do think that's important.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Andromeda on February 28, 2006, 11:44:05 AM
Haha, WOW...What I cannot understand is how someone who is apparently Black could make such an ignorant statement, saying cornrows and dreads, two hairstyles which have forever been a part of our cultural expression, are unprofessional. You mean white people might not approve, right? Maybe you need to take a class or two...or 10 about Black culture in both the United States and around the world. When neatly done, an individual can look very professional in either one of these hairstyles. I don't think anyone here would be defending those who would look sloppy and unkempt in appearance, but to suggest that to be Black and have a certain hairstyle automatically makes you that is foolish, and anyone making that statement either already has prejudices towards Black people and Black culture, or simply does not know enough Black people, or much about the culture.

Also, just for clarification since I did not read the initial article, is this pertaining to both males and females?

@bolded. What is so ignorant about what I said??? It isn't ignorant (cornrows as unprofessional), because if it were ignorant it wouldn't be considered worthy of a ban at an acclaimed HBCU.

Corn-rows IS unprofessional in corporate America and I can go out on a limb and say that it would be VERY unprofessional in law firms as well. Most of the clients that you will be working with are 80% whites, and suffice it to say that if you can't keep your client happy, you should start counting your days at your firm.

Yes, there are certain corn rows that can be worn neatly and professionally, the really tiny corn rows that are so packed together that you cannot see the scalp of the person wearing it. But I'd be lying if I said that most of us actually wear our corn rows this way. When we wear our corn rows, you can see the scalp, and most of the times it is done all the way down the back (in essence, it isn't like a 2-layered type corn-row). I am talking especially for females. CORN ROWS IS A NO-GO AREA FOR MALES.........PERIOD!!!!!

I wore my hair in corn rows in college, but of course when it came time for interviewing, I was sure to get a perm. You could try to play up your individuality in your corn-rows, but I doubt that you'd be scoring any favors or points with your white interviewer.

dreads are also unprofessional, especially when worn long or dirty. My friend in our Chicago office gets her in a twist and it looks like dreads, but is more like twists and she doesn't wear it long.

I can feel the heat coming, but I'd like for us to be truthful to ourselves. If you went into an interview with corn-rows on your head and say with another black person who had a straight perm, who do you think will be getting the job??? Hmmm....professionalism...... .
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Jigga00516 on February 28, 2006, 11:57:49 AM
My thing is that, of course what you are saying about people's perception is accurate, and there is nothing wrong with you advising someone not to wear their hair a certain way when interviewing, because it would put them at a disadvantage. The only thing I had an issue with was
1) Saying that cornrows or dreadlocks are inherently unprofessional. They are not, but they are not what the white man wants to see and like you said it is a white mans world...I just get annoyed when it seems like people tag almost everything uniquely Black as something not fit for the professional world, hope you did not take that as me trying to come at you personally its not that.

2)My bigger issue is the schools trying to ban these forms of expression completely. I think that while it is good for them to make sure their students are aware of how people may look at them with certain hairstyles, it should still ultimately be an individual's decision how they want to present themselves. Just my thoughts...I never claim to be right, just opinionated.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on February 28, 2006, 12:02:43 PM
2)My bigger issue is the schools trying to ban these forms of expression completely. I think that while it is good for them to make sure their students are aware of how people may look at them with certain hairstyles, it should still ultimately be an individual's decision how they want to present themselves. Just my thoughts...I never claim to be right, just opinionated.

You don't get to "express" yourself in corporate america, and as I understand it, the schools already have dress codes and nobody is boo hooing over that. Would you be opposed if they banned visible tattoos and facial piercings?
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Andromeda on February 28, 2006, 12:09:32 PM
My thing is that, of course what you are saying about people's perception is accurate, and there is nothing wrong with you advising someone not to wear their hair a certain way when interviewing, because it would put them at a disadvantage. The only thing I had an issue with was
1) Saying that cornrows or dreadlocks are inherently unprofessional. They are not, but they are not what the white man wants to see and like you said it is a white mans world...I just get annoyed when it seems like people tag almost everything uniquely Black as something not fit for the professional world, hope you did not take that as me trying to come at you personally its not that.

2)My bigger issue is the schools trying to ban these forms of expression completely. I think that while it is good for them to make sure their students are aware of how people may look at them with certain hairstyles, it should still ultimately be an individual's decision how they want to present themselves. Just my thoughts...I never claim to be right, just opinionated.

You know honestly, I could eat my own words saying that corn rows and dreads are inherently unprofessional. I am saying that they are unprofessional in the context of todays world. This of course is likely to change as more black people venture into white collar-America. by the time you have 20 black females at a firm wh oare wearing their hair in corn rows, and say 50% of your clients are black who understand the history of corn rows being a cultural thing rather than an MTV-hip-hop thing, only then will we start to change what is viewes as professional or otherwise. But to be able to get that many black people into corporate America as it is, we need to go by the standards that they have set, especially when you consider that most business is white, most o your clients will be white as well. Until we can teach the white man by working amongst them, that corn rows and dreads are parts of black culture that can work in an office environment, we will continually get those stares from your clients, and having work taken away from from you by your firm for trivial reasons.


On your other point, I tried to justify their bannig these hairstyles in my previous posts. I think it is absolutely absurd and ridiculous (not that this would change anything), to have students wear their hair a certain way. I was thinking the same thing that the students should make the decisions for themselves. My personal thoughts that would justify this ban would be this---> With this ban, student maintain neat and acceptable hairstyles throughout the semester, such that when the time comes for interviewing or otherwise, they are prepared **In Howard's terms**.<--- An underlying factor could also be Howard's recruiting stats. I bet if you looked into it, Howard might feel like they could get their recruiting stats up if their students are better prepared, this way Howard has something to benefit from the ban, and the students can be hired more, which would benefit the students also. Like i said, my personal thoughts.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 28, 2006, 12:10:28 PM
anything that is DREADFUL ::) obviously is unprofessional.... we don't agree on the concept of people wearing locks..as it stands my locks are beginning to touch my shoulders and I don't see myself cutting them... what is long to you? are you telling me that your friend is keeping her hair short because she chooses to wear twists?

if I went to an interview with another person that's had a perm (and I have) it's going to be based on my performance in the interview and what I've done in the past.. I guarantee you that based on ability alone my hair will not be a hindrance to being hired... as I said.. my resume stipulates.. WILL NOT CUT HAIR...

it's unfortunate that women feel that they cannot lock their hair based  on a preconceived notion that at the end of the day a perm will set them apart from a woman with locked hair...

hell perms are unprofessional when worn dirty...weaves are unprofessional when a person can see your track line but I digress...



dreads are also unprofessional, especially when worn long or dirty. My friend in our Chicago office gets her in a twist and it looks like dreads, but is more like twists and she doesn't wear it long.

I can feel the heat coming, but I'd like for us to be truthful to ourselves. If you went into an interview with corn-rows on your head and say with another black person who had a straight perm, who do you think will be getting the job??? Hmmm....professionalism...... .
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: petitschoque on February 28, 2006, 12:12:46 PM
I can feel the heat coming, but I'd like for us to be truthful to ourselves. If you went into an interview with corn-rows on your head and say with another black person who had a straight perm, who do you think will be getting the job??? Hmmm....professionalism...... .
I would be getting the job just as I have before. And permed-heads like you would snicker at me with my neatly done, tiny cornrows coiffed into a bun...snicker all the way to the next interview that is because this job would be taken by me.

If you want to live in fear of your natural hair being unacceptable, it is your cross to bear. My experiences haven't borne this out and I've worked in superconservative corporate environments for years. Neat, clean, professional, and toned down is the measuring stick I've dealt with and natural hair fits that bill easily.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on February 28, 2006, 12:13:04 PM
hell perms are unprofessional when worn dirty...weaves are unprofessional when a person can see your track line but I digress...

 :D :D :D


But you're right. Neat and groomed is the key for any hairstyle.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Jigga00516 on February 28, 2006, 12:16:04 PM
"You don't get to "express" yourself in corporate america, and as I understand it, the schools already have dress codes and nobody is boo hooing over that. Would you be opposed if they banned visible tattoos and facial piercings?"


You are right, you don't get to express yourself in corporate America...so for that reason, if you attend Howard University, which is at least to me the most well-known/prestigious of all HBCU's...which are Universities...centers for cultural and academic learning and expression....you don't get to express yourself either? That does not make sense to me. As far as the dress codes, they are a private school and are entitled to do what they want, but the fact is I am graduating with brothers and sisters who wear sweats to class almost everyday and since Fall semester they have had their corporate jobs already secured, whereas I have people at Howard who graduated last year and were forced to settle after grueling job searches, dress code and all. As a Black man, and a business major, I don't know how to feel about the fact that I'm glad I don't go to HU. As far as the facial piercings and visible tattoo's comment...those are extreme and I personally would not recommend them to anyone, regardless of their career aspirations, but I was referring to hair. And I do know professional men and women with these hairstyles that are being banned.


Haha and that comment about the weaves was hilarious...and so true
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Andromeda on February 28, 2006, 12:20:20 PM
anything that is DREADFUL ::) obviously is unprofessional.... we don't agree on the concept of people wearing locks..as it stands my locks are beginning to touch my shoulders and I don't see myself cutting them... what is long to you? are you telling me that your friend is keeping her hair short because she chooses to wear twists?

if I went to an interview with another person that's had a perm (and I have) it's going to be based on my performance in the interview and what I've done in the past.. I guarantee you that based on ability alone my hair will not be a hindrance to being hired... as I said.. my resume stipulates.. WILL NOT CUT HAIR...

it's unfortunate that women feel that they cannot lock their hair based  on a preconceived notion that at the end of the day a perm will set them apart from a woman with locked hair...

hell perms are unprofessional when worn dirty...weaves are unprofessional when a person can see your track line but I digress...

My friend has really soft hair, soft and kinky. Braids break her hair and weaves can get tiring and expensive. So what she does is she picks her hair apart in little clump and twists them together while adding some spritz (or hair gel, not sure which), and sheen. I doubt she would ever let her hair grow too long especially if she needs to continue doing that. In essence her hair isn't even dreads, because all she needs to do to take it out is to get in the shower, some shampoo and hair brush straight up!

I can understand why you would keep your hair in dreads, but like I said, I believe dreads are unprofessional **To a certain Extent**. I have seen a guy at my client site with those little twists that guys wear these days , but hey, this guy is in IT. All he does is wear his jeans in the morning and go into work and wait for folks like me to come quesiton him and make recommendations etc.....

What I have NEVER seen and I doubt that I will ever see, is a man wearing corn rows or dreads in a job that isn't as technical as the one I have described above eg. a financial advisor, venture specialist, lawyer etc.

As to wearing a perm. When I say wear a perm, I mean wear your hair straight, when we are talking weaves and tracks that is topic for discussion on another thread. You can wear dreads as a female if it is (1) NEAT (2) NOT TOO LONG. I'm not sure how long your hair is, but I can bet you that if it gets to a certain length, you will get those stares and who knows, at some point your supervisor/boss might have a one-on-one talk with you
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Andromeda on February 28, 2006, 12:27:01 PM
I can feel the heat coming, but I'd like for us to be truthful to ourselves. If you went into an interview with corn-rows on your head and say with another black person who had a straight perm, who do you think will be getting the job??? Hmmm....professionalism...... .
I would be getting the job just as I have before. And permed-heads like you would snicker at me with my neatly done, tiny cornrows coiffed into a bun...snicker all the way to the next interview that is because this job would be taken by me.

If you want to live in fear of your natural hair being unacceptable, it is your cross to bear. My experiences haven't borne this out and I've worked in superconservative corporate environments for years. Neat, clean, professional, and toned down is the measuring stick I've dealt with and natural hair fits that bill easily.

Excuse me?!?!?!?! I think you might be getting in over yourself with this post, what's with the bitterness, has a long-permed-headed sister taken a job from you before especially considering bolded??. What do you mean by "permed heads like you"..........Does having a permed head put me in a different category worthey of distinction like you did??? I do not effing care about living in  **in your very laughable words** FEAR because I CHOOSE to wear my hair in a perm or in braids (when I can afford to). I CHOOSE to present myself in such a way in which I can compete for the same positions as the next white person. Mind you, most of your bosses and partners would be more comfortable around you when they do not feel threatened by your "individuality" a la corn rows with scalp showing through.

Noone is asking you to not wear your natural hair and noone is saying that WE the "permed-headed" ones are going to get your jobs. The fact of the matter remains that aesthetics play a huge role in moving up the ladder in corporate America and corn rows and dreads are not professional enough to get the job done. Maybe you can prove me wrong.

It would be nice to see Conddie Rice wear her hair in corn rows or in dreads.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 28, 2006, 12:30:18 PM
your friend is ruining her hair by using gel to twist it..and if she's using spritz then lord help her...tell her to get some paul mitchell tea tree grooming pommade oil..

(http://www.thebeautyshoppe.com/Products/Images/ACF4025.jpg)

I have seen quite a few black men working on Capital Hill with locs..  I have never seen one with cornrows however..

if my hiring partner comes to me and says that my hair is too long he will then know that my days at my firm will end in fourteen days... and that's the end of it...
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: intent06 on February 28, 2006, 12:33:09 PM
Cornrows are not necessarily unprofessional in corporate America.  It is very situational.  If you wanna rock a perm, please do that.  If you think locs are the way to go, do that as well.  In the end, its all a form of conforming or not conforming.  Just make sure whatever style you are showing off, it is neat and works for you.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Andromeda on February 28, 2006, 12:35:17 PM
BLK, If your hair is what is in your avatar, that is far from LONG. If we want to talk long.............I'm talking this --------->(http://pest.untergrund.net/Dreads.jpg)

As for my friend, she takes care of her hair real well, I'm not sure how she does it, but it's a long process for her and she does it all by herself.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 28, 2006, 12:38:31 PM
my hair is pulled up in my avatar...but it is right at my shoulders..and i have no problems letting it get to the length of that picture that you just pasted..

yeah I'm sure your friend takes about 3-4 hours to twist her hair herself..but if she's using that same nasty brown gel or white gel that people used to use (and some still do ::) ) to slick their hair...she's going to have problems with breakage in the long run...
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Andromeda on February 28, 2006, 12:41:43 PM
I will find out from her today what she uses for her hair. I know she has had problems with her hair breaking, I really doubt she'd be doing anything to jeopardize the status quo (her hair has improved dramatically from the days of college braids and breaking).
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Andromeda on February 28, 2006, 12:52:53 PM
Hmmmm.....she just signed into messenger and apparently she uses Organic Root Stimulator Olive oil. Close to what you suggested.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 28, 2006, 12:58:02 PM
I've used that in the past..

Hmmmm.....she just signed into messenger and apparently she uses Organic Root Stimulator Olive oil. Close to what you suggested.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Muse on February 28, 2006, 01:24:42 PM
I use Skeet in my hair.

Great source of protein.

It gives it that extra shine!
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: petitschoque on February 28, 2006, 01:28:53 PM
Andromeda, I added that comment about snickering because your post sounds condescending towards those with natural hair. It think it's a huge stretch to claim that those with natural hair will lose out to women with permed hair like you at job interviews. If you permed your hair because you felt under pressure to do so or didn't have the courage to wait and see, well that's your choice. But I think that to pronounce cornrows and dreads inherently unprofessional is crazy.

As for competing with whites, I think I'm qualified enough to compete successfully with anyone of any race without shrieking for 20 minutes at a salon with sodium hydroxide in my hair every 6 weeks. But if you're not...well we all know our limitations, don't we? ;) Aesthetically, no one will mistake you for anything more or less than black person so I don't know what value you think you're adding to yourself by relaxing your hair. I'm not jealous of permed hair nor am I jealous of long hair since my hair is very long. I just don't find it aesthetically appealing but you don't see me making arrogant predictions about your job outlook. That would be silly and presumptuous.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Muse on February 28, 2006, 01:35:15 PM
I've seen natural styles that look professional. I just personally don't think cornrows fall into that category.

Perms suck too.

Creamy crack is whack!
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Andromeda on February 28, 2006, 01:38:28 PM
Andromeda, I added that comment about snickering because your post sounds condescending towards those with natural hair. It think it's a huge stretch to claim that those with natural hair will lose out to women with permed hair like you at job interviews. If you permed your hair because you felt under pressure to do so or didn't have the courage to wait and see, well that's your choice. But I think that to pronounce cornrows and dreads inherently unprofessional is crazy.

okay, before I even continue, can you show me the post where I was condescending to people with natural hair. If I remember correctly my post and analogy was regarding someone with corn rows and someone with straight permed hair. Please try to stay on track, I hate it when my words are twisted or I am force-fed statements that I never made.

that being said, for you to think that I permed my hair for whatever reason is laughable. I have had my hair permed since I was a kid. It is more manageable for me and there are even more pros that I don't care to list. If you think that anyone who perms their hair is selling out, I feel really sorry for you.

Noone is asking you to not wear your hair natural, like I have harped on in my last response to you, it is inevitably your CHOICE, the same way it is my CHOICE to perm my hair. Now if you feel much better wearing your natural hair in corn rows, you can read all my previous posts on the subject as to my stance on that.

One more thing, since you added some more to your initial post. I can tell you quite honestly that aesthetics play a great role in Corporate America as well. If 2 black people were up for a  job at a firm with the same qualifications and the same stats, all other factors being equal, it will 60% more likely fall on the better looking candidate, as to who gets the job. I really doubt more favor would be given to the person in corn-rows......my thoughts!

And you seen to have some deep-seated annger at sisters with permed hair, that is topic for discussion for another thread and **for another day** by the way.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: petitschoque on February 28, 2006, 01:54:18 PM
Deep-seated anger? Honey, don't build a straw man, it just isn't that serious. And your condescension comes out in parts like this where you insinuate that someone with permed hair is automatically better looking than someone without:

Quote
One more thing, since you added some more to your initial post. I can tell you quite honestly that aesthetics play a great role in Corporate America as well. If 2 black people were up for a  job at a firm with the same qualifications and the same stats whatever the case may be, it will 60% more likely fall on the better looking candidate, as to who gets the job. I really doubt more favor would be given to the person in corn-rows......my thoughts!

Since when did better-looking = Relaxed hair? If you can't see how that can be insulting, then I just don't care enough to help you out.

Oh and when you say that you permed your hair when you were ready to get a job in college because you supposedly knew you had to look the part in order to compete with whites, it speaks to your motives for perming your hair and says more than simple preference for 'manageability.' Again, if you can't see that, you already know I just don't care to help you out.

And where did I ever say this:

Quote
If you think that anyone who perms their hair is selling out...

You seem to be conflating a preference for natural hair with a conviction that perming is selling out. How in the world does that follow? Building a straw man again?

You're all over the place and I can't be bothered to chase you. Your ideas on natural hair aren't relevant to my life, and I just responded to counter some ridiculous ideas being thrown around.

Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: _BP_ on February 28, 2006, 01:54:23 PM
Some of you guys are straight bamas. I hope the next thing they do is tell you that big butts and thick lips are unprofessional too. As for the cats with dreads, I hope at least one of them is a practicing rastafarian and they file a lawsuit under religious discrimination laws.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: ScoopNY on February 28, 2006, 02:02:07 PM
Only on the BLSD board can we have a 16 page thread about hair. That's all I got.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Andromeda on February 28, 2006, 02:18:43 PM
Deep-seated anger? Honey, don't build a straw man, it just isn't that serious. And your condescension comes out in parts like this where you insinuate that someone with permed hair is automatically better looking than someone without:

Quote
If 2 black people were up for a  job at a firm with the same qualifications and the same stats whatever the case may be, it will 60% more likely fall on the better looking candidate, as to who gets the job. I really doubt more favor would be given to the person in corn-rows......my thoughts!

I really hope you don't plan on going to law school with your train of thoughts. Where in my post did I say that someone with permed hair is automatically better looking than someone without. Since you choose to pick the pieces that are favorable to your argument and fail to realize my use of comparison in a particular analogy, I will help you out by restating it yet again---> MY POINT IS THAT SOMEONE WITH PERMED HAIR SUCH AS YOURS' TRULY WILL BE MORE AESTHETICALLY PLEASING IN MY ANALOGY COMPARED TO SOMEONE WITH CORN-ROWS ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL IF THEY WERE INTERVIEWING FOR THE SAME JOB as corn-rows (back to the actual point of the thread), in my view is unprofessional and would not be aesthetically pleasing to the interviewers eyes!!!!.

Quote from: petitschoque
Oh and when you say that you permed your hair when you were ready to get a job in college because you supposedly knew you had to look the part in order to compete with whites, it speaks to your motives for perming your hair and says more than simple preference for 'manageability.'

If I remember correctly, I said I wore my hair in corn rows in college, and when it was time for interviewing, I was sure to go get a perm (of course you still fail to realize that I feel corn rows are unprofessional and it is my personal CHOICE to wear my hair in a perm), and of course you automatically assumed that while I was wearing my hair in corn rows, my hair didn't have a perm in it, or hadn't been relaxed. I guess you don't know much about perms right. Well, guess what, you canm have a perm and braid your hair, and your hair can grow with the braids or corn rows in and give you something called "undergrowth" or "new roots", at which point you go in for another perm or as some people like to call it, "A touch-up". Once again, It is my personal CHOICE to wear my hair in a perm, which is why I would rather go in for a perm before an interview than go into the interview with corn rows or without a "touch up" or a "perm" to make sure I look neat

Quote from: petitschoque
Aesthetically, no one will mistake you for anything more or less than black person so I don't know what value you think you're adding to yourself by relaxing your hair.

In this post you have made your point across that you think perming your hair is not adding any value to a person, and when taken in context of the rest of your post which I do not care to post, you have some deep-seated anger and bitterness at sisters with permed hair, I hope you can get over it. Sorry!

Quote from: petitschoque
You seem to be conflating a preference for natural hair with a conviction that perming is selling out. How in the world does that follow? Building a straw man again?

You're all over the place and I can't be bothered to chase you.

I might come across as all over the place to you because of your selective reading. By the way, I believe this post --- >
Quote from: petitschoque
If you permed your hair because you felt under pressure to do so or didn't have the courage to wait and see, well that's your choice.
shows your apparent anger at "Permed Headed people Like Me" in your words since you automatically feel like I felt under pressure to perm my hair, which is where I know for sure that you must feel like perms on a black female indicates selling out. IN essence, I should not have felt under pressure to perm my hair ( I don't even know where the pressure would be coming from as I have stated too many times to count, that wearing a perm is a CHOICE), or better yet, I should have taken my hair with the corn-rows to the interview for experimentatoin. "Hi interviewer, I am wearing my hair in corn-rows today to wait and see".....WTF?!?!?!?

You don't need to outrightly say that you have a bias against "permed headed people like me" or that you think perming is selling out **especially when you bear in mind that the issue at hand was corn-rows and dreads rather than natural hair**, I can see it in all your posts, and like I said before, I feel sorry for you still!!


Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: petitschoque on February 28, 2006, 02:26:30 PM
When your inner stability returns, you might want to make the font smaller like other civilized posters do. The topic is not that serious and you might have saved your time in posting because I didn't read it. Breathe and move on.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on February 28, 2006, 02:32:41 PM
For what it's worth, I'll agree that very long hair on women isn't deemed professional either, whether its curly, straight, loc'd, whatever. It goes against "toned down". However, the issue is easily solved by wearing ones hair in a bun.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: crazy8 on February 28, 2006, 02:35:57 PM
Moving on....anyone have any pictures of some fine brotha's (of any race) with dreads?  I never saw a man with dreads that I was seriously attracted to (well maybe one ;D )
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Muse on February 28, 2006, 02:38:16 PM
I got that good hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rr

LOL I'm kidding.

I concur CN. Long hair on women is also considered unprofessional in some circles. If your long hair looks neat and tamed, I don't think it will be a problem most corporate environments.


BP you are a fool! LOL. Bamas LMAO
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on February 28, 2006, 02:40:37 PM
I got that good hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rr

LOL I'm kidding.

I concur CN. Long hair on women is also considered unprofessional in some circles. If your long hair looks neat and tamed, I don't think it will be a problem most corporate environments.


BP you are a fool! LOL. Bamas LMAO

I'm talking long long, like past mid back/approaching your ass. Although I think taller women can wear longer hair - it overwhelms a petite frame like mine :( . I started pulling my hair up at work when one of the mailroom guys was like, girl get cho Pochantas ass up outta here...
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: crazy8 on February 28, 2006, 02:48:09 PM
I got that good hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rr

LOL I'm kidding.

I concur CN. Long hair on women is also considered unprofessional in some circles. If your long hair looks neat and tamed, I don't think it will be a problem most corporate environments.


BP you are a fool! LOL. Bamas LMAO

I'm talking long long, like past mid back/approaching your ass. Although I think taller women can wear longer hair - it overwhelms a petite frame like mine :( . I started pulling my hair up at work when one of the mailroom guys was like, girl get cho Pochantas ass up outta here...
;D ;D ;D ;D LMAO at that.  I guess he didn't read the office manual on derogatory statements.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Muse on February 28, 2006, 03:12:48 PM
Eww hair that long starts looking NASTY.

The longest my hair has ever been was my mid back but then I chopped it to my shoulders when during the early years of college. My mom had a damn heart attack.

One of my girlfriends is really tiny and her hair sits right above her butt. It looks really pretty on her actually.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 28, 2006, 03:14:49 PM

yeah at a certain point..women should start trimming their hair... which makes me think of some children with extremely long hair.. kind of annoys me...

I got that good hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rr

LOL I'm kidding.

I concur CN. Long hair on women is also considered unprofessional in some circles. If your long hair looks neat and tamed, I don't think it will be a problem most corporate environments.


BP you are a fool! LOL. Bamas LMAO

I'm talking long long, like past mid back/approaching your ass. Although I think taller women can wear longer hair - it overwhelms a petite frame like mine :( . I started pulling my hair up at work when one of the mailroom guys was like, girl get cho Pochantas ass up outta here...
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: petitschoque on February 28, 2006, 04:26:08 PM
For what it's worth, I'll agree that very long hair on women isn't deemed professional either, whether its curly, straight, loc'd, whatever. It goes against "toned down". However, the issue is easily solved by wearing ones hair in a bun.
Yea longer hair on women is sometimes considered distracting or not authoritative enough. I just let the natural properties of African hair do their thing. Shrinkage can take my hair from 18+ inches to looking like 9 inches in a low pony puff.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: petitschoque on February 28, 2006, 04:40:14 PM
I love your avatar.
You're probably referring to Muse, and in that case LOL.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 28, 2006, 04:42:53 PM
look @ GJ getting his flirt on  :D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: petitschoque on February 28, 2006, 04:50:44 PM
I love your avatar.
You're probably referring to Muse, and in that case LOL.

Muse's real avatars beat the azz in her current one, HANDS DOWN.
That's sweet :)

Quote
The infant in yours in killing me, though.
Ha! Unhappy infants are dear to my heart ;D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: petitschoque on February 28, 2006, 04:57:31 PM
I love your avatar.
You're probably referring to Muse, and in that case LOL.

Muse's real avatars beat the azz in her current one, HANDS DOWN.
That's sweet :)

Quote
The infant in yours in killing me, though.
Ha! Unhappy infants are dear to my heart ;D

I do not usually enjoy unhappy infants. The look on his face says too much.
lol I was just kidding...
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Muse on February 28, 2006, 05:59:33 PM
I love your avatar.
You're probably referring to Muse, and in that case LOL.

Muse's real avatars beat the azz in her current one, HANDS DOWN.
That's sweet :)

Quote
The infant in yours in killing me, though.
Ha! Unhappy infants are dear to my heart ;D

When I see a screaming white baby, I laugh.

It's like giving it to the man!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I am so kidding!

Or am I?

Muahahahaha

GJ you wanna come visit me and be my special friend?
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on February 28, 2006, 06:11:10 PM
hehehe...
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on February 28, 2006, 06:56:32 PM
Muse's real avatars beat the azz in her current one, HANDS DOWN. The infant in yours in killing me, though.

hey cotdammit. what happened to being my stay at home husband? i still dont have your application. are you cheating on me? while I watch American Idol?  >:(
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: 2Lacoste on February 28, 2006, 07:00:24 PM
I'm willing and able to console all those women whom GJ marginalizes in his hot pursuit of Muse.  Free of charge.   ;D
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Muse on February 28, 2006, 09:01:02 PM
GJ you wanna come visit me and be my special friend?

Undoubtedly. What kind of wine do you like?

My favorite is Cabernet Sauvignon specifically from Château Margaux. I had it in Switzerland. OOH if you have that, I will be your BEST friend.  :-[
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: 2Lacoste on February 28, 2006, 09:14:33 PM
I'm willing and able to console all those women whom GJ marginalizes in his hot pursuit of Muse.  Free of charge.   ;D

Keep playing and your blue sweater will turn crimson before you reach H. Brooklyn style.

KB: you got too flirty, flirty with the other H admits. I am not jealous, I'm just saying tho.

Dem's fightin' words!
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on February 28, 2006, 09:48:14 PM
I'm willing and able to console all those women whom GJ marginalizes in his hot pursuit of Muse.  Free of charge.   ;D

Keep playing and your blue sweater will turn crimson before you reach H. Brooklyn style.

KB: you got too flirty, flirty with the other H admits. I am not jealous, I'm just saying tho.


I'm flirty now? Who on earth have I been flirting with? Not the coreenne - never!
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: _BP_ on March 01, 2006, 09:11:41 AM
Settlement reached with FedEx over dreadlocks discrimination claim


ABJ December 2005
FedEx Express and state Attorney General Eliot Spitzer agreed Friday to settle a claim Spitzer brought in 2001 that the company was discriminating against couriers who wore their hair in dreadlocks.

Spitzer said FedEx Express terminated the couriers in New York City because they refused to cut their hair to conform with the company's personal appearance policy. The employees countered that they wore dreadlocks as an expression of their religious beliefs.
Spitzer said Friday the company has since addressed several of the objections to FedEx Express' policies that the attorney general's suit raised. He said the company further agreed to make its managers aware of the need to accommodate employees' religious beliefs and to report to Spitzer's office periodically on how any employees who have dreadlocks are being treated. Spitzer praised the company for working cooperatively with his office to settle the matter

Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on March 01, 2006, 09:17:07 AM
ah..u were just talking about this yesterday BP..good stuff...
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: blk_reign on March 06, 2006, 04:43:23 PM
btw i still don't like cornrows.. but want to post this picture anyway...

(http://static.flickr.com/42/108768050_75131daced_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: M DOT on March 06, 2006, 05:59:33 PM
always had a special place for luda, he was on point last night
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Inquirer on March 06, 2006, 06:04:42 PM
I'm not a fan of grown men with cornrows, but his always look nice.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Statistic on March 22, 2006, 09:17:00 PM
I think that banning ethnic hairstyles is ridiculous. No one ever forgets that you're black. It's not as though a perm makes you more appealing as a black employee to employers. As long as one's hair is well groomed and not distracting, what in the hell is the issue. Half the time, white people aren't even paying that much attention to your hair.

I like this post. Good job.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: ibroadrunr on March 22, 2006, 09:24:05 PM
baff w/tidbits

1, I'm not black and have had cornrows.

2, If anything, well-maintained cornrows should be considered more professional, as long-haired styles go.  Keeps hair tidy and out of the way.

3, I didn't read all 19 pages, sorry.

4, Actually I haven't given this topic a whole lot of thought in general, hence the 'baff.'
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: jerrica benton on March 26, 2006, 02:51:43 PM
famu did something like this for some years, but in more recent years, has become lax about the policy.  they realized it was antiquated.  i am unsure why hampton/howard would adopt this sort of policy in 2006, especially across the b-school.  students with, for example, a marketing specialization, would have 0 problem getting a job w/cornrows or dreds--even in "corporate america."
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: ibroadrunr on March 26, 2006, 06:15:56 PM
Is that Jem?  Nice.
Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: lawhijabi on March 28, 2006, 08:21:36 PM
Yea Def didn't read all 19 post.........But I go to Howard and I have friends in the school of B and I have heard no such thing.........I did read an article about this happing at Hampton in the hill top

Hampton Business Students Follow Strict Hair Code
By: Kendra Turner
Issue date: 3/22/06 Section: Business & Technology

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Students majoring in business administration at Hampton University School of Business are not allowed to wear cornrows or dreadlocks, in line with a strict academic and dress doctrine.

While the program makes it possible for students to receive a bachelor's degree and a master's in business administration in five-years, students must maintain a B-average after their sophomore year, follow a conservative dress code, complete two internships and meet regularly with business leaders, reported the Associated Press.

Dean Sid Credle told the Associated Press that although he does not have a problem with a "nicely-tapered" Afro, these rules that mandate behavior and grooming are meant to prepare students for the strict business world.

Credle said the top 75 African Americans in the corporate world do not have extreme hairdos.

Dean Barron Harvey of Howard's School of Business, which offers a five-year program for accounting majors, said he understands Hampton's reasons for implementing such rules. However, he believes it is more about educating students about proper dress and attire. "Our students understand how to dress for success and what it takes to be successful in the corporate world," he said.

However, Harvey said he is not going to require students to cut their hair or wear suits everyday.

"I am going to require students to be educated on their responsibility to dress professionally and have a professional appearance that is consistent and compatible with organizations that they are interacting with."

The dean has faith that students fully understand their responsibility to comply with corporate culture.

"There are corporations that will accept students with neatly done cornrows and our students are aware of those that don't."

Harold Gray, Sr., Director of Professional Development at the Center for Insurance Education in the School of Business does not agree that braids and similar styles are a problem and encourages students to be unique. However, he did warn students, "everything you do and everything you don't do has its consequences."

 Gray said students need to do their own research on what is acceptable, and know it has nothing to do with abilities, but rather the environment.

"Don't look at it as selling out, look at it as a uniform," Gray said.

Carol Dudley, coordinator in the Office of Career Development in the School of Communications at Howard, has no problem with students wearing cornrows and similar styles while in school unless they are in a corporate environment.

"When it comes to braids on a female or male, the hair should be pulled back so that they pose little distraction to work that needs to be done," Dudley said. "If [the hairstyle] has to do with religion, it should be hands-off."

Sophomore finance major Jayronn Hosey has plans to cut his braids when he enters the corporate world, but said "braids and dreadlocks should be accepted if kept professional."

Sophomore television production major, Alexis Taylor, agreed that all hairstyles should be well kept.

"Considering that I have natural hair, I disagree with not being able to wear braids and dreads, as long as they are neat and presentable," Taylor said. "I understand that in the corporate world you have to fit in to a certain degree, but it's just hair, it's not that serious."

Taylor believes corporate problems with braids and dreadlocks stem from the stigma attached to natural hairstyles: that they are dirty or unkempt.

"Most people with natural hairstyles wash their hair often. I wash my hair at least once week," she said.

Dudley said although acceptance of a hairstyle may depend on the nature of the workplace environment, students should understand that "in order to attract money or business it may require conformity."

Dudley believes students should practice wearing appropriate business attire and supports the optional rule in the School of Communications, which urges students to dress in corporate attire the second Tuesday and Thursday of the month.

"I believe School of Communications students should possess a suit because they will need it at some point; there is no industry where you don't need a suit," she said.

Hosey, sophomore finance major, understands the suit requirement for students, even though it is a bit restrictive.

"Students should be able to enjoy college because they are not in the professional world yet. It [a dress code] makes college more stressful than it should be."

Gray, director of professional development in the School of Business, said some companies are becoming more open to styles outside the conservative realm.

"Many corporations are not wearing business attire everyday. Many environments are dress down and business casual," he said. "Many more companies are being more receptive to many other styles and cultures."

Title: Re: Cornrows at Howard - Banned!
Post by: Perversely on March 30, 2006, 12:07:59 PM
I saw an article on CNN tonight about how Howard University, or maybe just the Business School, has banned cornrows and long braids.  I didn't catch the exact language.  I was curious about the reaction of folks here.  Good idea, bad idea?  Would it make you more or less likely to go there?

P.S. I know not only black folks go to Howard and I know not only black folks wear cornrows but I am guessing that the only people at Howard who wear cornrows are black so I put it here instead of news discussion.

Howard sold out.



yeah, that's what i think. next thing you know there's going to be a requirement that you need to perm your hair.

wait a minute...i need documented proof that howard is doing this. i just can't believe it...