Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Choosing the Right Law School => Topic started by: Happy_Weasel on January 22, 2006, 03:31:19 PM

Title: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Happy_Weasel on January 22, 2006, 03:31:19 PM
well?  I mean what type of school would one have to go to be considered a real lawyer?
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Happy_Weasel on January 27, 2006, 04:50:18 PM
What I am asking is that what level of school do you think it takes to have a fair shot at being an at least fair attorney?
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Steve Butabi on January 31, 2006, 01:21:14 PM
t1, most of t2
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: shae on February 01, 2006, 08:53:07 PM
you have a shot at being an attorney at any accredited school and even non-accredited schools in some states.

South Texas is a "t4" but you wouldn't know that by how people talk about them in Houston.

You can be succesful anywhere you go if you work hard- it make just be handed to you if you graduate from some schools.
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Happy_Weasel on February 04, 2006, 04:46:33 PM
What are the differences between T14, T1, T2, T3 and T4 then?
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: moonchigger on February 04, 2006, 06:53:01 PM
prestige and initial job offers right out of school...you can be successful no matter what law school you graduate from
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Happy_Weasel on February 05, 2006, 01:36:52 PM
So basically, if you graduate from a T3 or a T4, you can only get a job by starting a practice with a few friends or a new firm. At a T2 or non-T25 T1, you can get an average job and at a T25, you can get any job for new associates that are available in your reigon and a T14 can get any new associate's job wherever.
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Actual 1L on February 05, 2006, 01:49:25 PM
So basically, if you graduate from a T3 or a T4, you can only get a job by starting a practice with a few friends or a new firm. At a T2 or non-T25 T1, you can get an average job and at a T25, you can get any job for new associates that are available in your reigon and a T14 can get any new associate's job wherever.

Uhhhh, this is not correct.
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Happy_Weasel on February 05, 2006, 04:14:01 PM
How do you create these oppurtunities?
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Happy_Weasel on February 06, 2006, 05:58:52 PM
Hmmmm....for best results, when should I start pursuing these networks?
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Happy_Weasel on February 06, 2006, 07:12:32 PM
Even on the first day?
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Happy_Weasel on February 06, 2006, 08:40:25 PM
Maybe I should talk to a professor then, huh?
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: SuicideNixon on February 12, 2006, 12:51:03 PM
So basically, if you graduate from a T3 or a T4, you can only get a job by starting a practice with a few friends or a new firm. At a T2 or non-T25 T1, you can get an average job and at a T25, you can get any job for new associates that are available in your reigon and a T14 can get any new associate's job wherever.

Uhhhh, this is not correct.

I totally agree.

The most difficult part of going to a top law school is getting in. The easiest part is getting good grades.

The easiest part of going to a lesser ranked school is getting in. The hardest part is getting good grades.

Many of the top schools have no grade curve to speak of, most lower ranked schools have one, and typically more vicious the lower you go down.

Your grades and your networking will have the biggest effect on what first job you can get. Good grades and being an effective hand shaker and kisser of babies goes a long way at any school. There are graduates who do well and are good lawyers from schools all along the rank continuum, and those that do not and are not, all along the rank continuum.

Going to a top school does not guarantee alone you will be a success in law practice; neither does going to a bottom school doom you to hanging out shingle on your own and being mediocre. Top schools allow you more opportunity to rely on the school to land you a job; lower ranked schools just mean you need to focus more on creating those opertunites for yourself.


i dont know of a top school that doesn't have a curve. maybe yale
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Actual 1L on February 12, 2006, 12:54:09 PM
So basically, if you graduate from a T3 or a T4, you can only get a job by starting a practice with a few friends or a new firm. At a T2 or non-T25 T1, you can get an average job and at a T25, you can get any job for new associates that are available in your reigon and a T14 can get any new associate's job wherever.

Uhhhh, this is not correct.

I totally agree.

The most difficult part of going to a top law school is getting in. The easiest part is getting good grades.

The easiest part of going to a lesser ranked school is getting in. The hardest part is getting good grades.

Many of the top schools have no grade curve to speak of, most lower ranked schools have one, and typically more vicious the lower you go down.

Your grades and your networking will have the biggest effect on what first job you can get. Good grades and being an effective hand shaker and kisser of babies goes a long way at any school. There are graduates who do well and are good lawyers from schools all along the rank continuum, and those that do not and are not, all along the rank continuum.

Going to a top school does not guarantee alone you will be a success in law practice; neither does going to a bottom school doom you to hanging out shingle on your own and being mediocre. Top schools allow you more opportunity to rely on the school to land you a job; lower ranked schools just mean you need to focus more on creating those opertunites for yourself.


i dont know of a top school that doesn't have a curve. maybe yale

Well Yale is surely one example, as they do not even have grades.  Many top schools, though, may officially have a curve, but in reality it is a farce.  For instance, at Northwestern, to graduate with high honors, you have to average over a 4.0.  And graduating with second honors is usually requires about a 3.97 GPA.  They also do not rank students nor do they allow employers to screen students and their GPA before an interview.  So yea, there may be a curve, but its impact on students is minimal at many of the top schools.
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: SuicideNixon on February 12, 2006, 01:13:03 PM
So basically, if you graduate from a T3 or a T4, you can only get a job by starting a practice with a few friends or a new firm. At a T2 or non-T25 T1, you can get an average job and at a T25, you can get any job for new associates that are available in your reigon and a T14 can get any new associate's job wherever.

Uhhhh, this is not correct.

I totally agree.

The most difficult part of going to a top law school is getting in. The easiest part is getting good grades.

The easiest part of going to a lesser ranked school is getting in. The hardest part is getting good grades.

Many of the top schools have no grade curve to speak of, most lower ranked schools have one, and typically more vicious the lower you go down.

Your grades and your networking will have the biggest effect on what first job you can get. Good grades and being an effective hand shaker and kisser of babies goes a long way at any school. There are graduates who do well and are good lawyers from schools all along the rank continuum, and those that do not and are not, all along the rank continuum.

Going to a top school does not guarantee alone you will be a success in law practice; neither does going to a bottom school doom you to hanging out shingle on your own and being mediocre. Top schools allow you more opportunity to rely on the school to land you a job; lower ranked schools just mean you need to focus more on creating those opertunites for yourself.


i dont know of a top school that doesn't have a curve. maybe yale

Well Yale is surely one example, as they do not even have grades.  Many top schools, though, may officially have a curve, but in reality it is a farce.  For instance, at Northwestern, to graduate with high honors, you have to average over a 4.0.  And graduating with second honors is usually requires about a 3.97 GPA.  They also do not rank students nor do they allow employers to screen students and their GPA before an interview.  So yea, there may be a curve, but its impact on students is minimal at many of the top schools.

even though yale doesn't have "grades" they still might have a limit on the number of honors they give per class, which is effectively a curve. and while all the top schools save one or two don't rank students or allow employers to screen students prior to an interview, firms are easily able to calculate a student's approximate class rank and base their decisions based on this. the reason the curve doesn't matter as much is because these students are just in higher demand generally. but plenty of firms disqualify candidates even at top schools based on grades
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: SuicideNixon on February 12, 2006, 01:18:05 PM
So basically, if you graduate from a T3 or a T4, you can only get a job by starting a practice with a few friends or a new firm. At a T2 or non-T25 T1, you can get an average job and at a T25, you can get any job for new associates that are available in your reigon and a T14 can get any new associate's job wherever.

Uhhhh, this is not correct.

I totally agree.

The most difficult part of going to a top law school is getting in. The easiest part is getting good grades.

The easiest part of going to a lesser ranked school is getting in. The hardest part is getting good grades.

Many of the top schools have no grade curve to speak of, most lower ranked schools have one, and typically more vicious the lower you go down.

Your grades and your networking will have the biggest effect on what first job you can get. Good grades and being an effective hand shaker and kisser of babies goes a long way at any school. There are graduates who do well and are good lawyers from schools all along the rank continuum, and those that do not and are not, all along the rank continuum.

Going to a top school does not guarantee alone you will be a success in law practice; neither does going to a bottom school doom you to hanging out shingle on your own and being mediocre. Top schools allow you more opportunity to rely on the school to land you a job; lower ranked schools just mean you need to focus more on creating those opertunites for yourself.


i dont know of a top school that doesn't have a curve. maybe yale

Well Yale is surely one example, as they do not even have grades.  Many top schools, though, may officially have a curve, but in reality it is a farce.  For instance, at Northwestern, to graduate with high honors, you have to average over a 4.0.  And graduating with second honors is usually requires about a 3.97 GPA.  They also do not rank students nor do they allow employers to screen students and their GPA before an interview.  So yea, there may be a curve, but its impact on students is minimal at many of the top schools.

Yup. A B+ grade curve is not one that going to affect the average law stundents performance negatively. You would have to actually work at getting a C- in a class like that. A C- curve on the other hand guarantees that 50% of a class will have a grade at or below that; ouch.

I think for law students looking at firms that are familiar with their law schools, the actual grade doesn't matter, only their approximate class rank. Chicago doesnt even have grades, they have 20 different numbers; wisconsin also has a number system; harvard has an 8.0 system. if a 3.2 is top 5% it doesn't make sense to put that person below a 3.25 that is bottom half.
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Happy_Weasel on February 12, 2006, 01:20:26 PM
Hmmm....maybe. You just need to be in the top half to get a tier-appropriate job and to get into the top decile for a job a tier higher(or to get a SCOTUS clerkship if you are T14). That's what I figure.
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Actual 1L on February 12, 2006, 01:22:36 PM
Hmmm....maybe. You just need to be in the top half to get a tier-appropriate job and to get into the top decile for a job a tier higher(or to get a SCOTUS clerkship if you are T14). That's what I figure.

You need more than that to get a SCOTUS clerkship.
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Happy_Weasel on February 12, 2006, 01:23:56 PM
Top decile at a T14 isn't enough? I would say top 5% @ HaYaStCoChiNY and maybe VaPenn then? So maybe twice as longitudial and latidudially exclusive, T7 5%?
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Actual 1L on February 12, 2006, 01:26:51 PM
Top decile at a T14 isn't enough?

There are what, no more than about 30 SCOTUS clerks every year?  You have to have top notch grades from a great school along with the demonstrated ability to research and write with the best of them.  That usually means Law Review editor and published works.  On top of that, clerks usually hold similar political beliefs of their justice, so throw that in the mix, too.
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: SuicideNixon on February 12, 2006, 01:27:11 PM
Hmmm....maybe. You just need to be in the top half to get a tier-appropriate job and to get into the top decile for a job a tier higher(or to get a SCOTUS clerkship if you are T14). That's what I figure.

you need to be in the top 5 people at harvard to have a shot at SCOTUS and the top 3 everywhere else in the T14
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: SuicideNixon on February 12, 2006, 01:30:41 PM
Top decile at a T14 isn't enough? I would say top 5% @ HaYaStCoChiNY and maybe VaPenn then? So maybe twice as longitudial and latidudially exclusive, T7 5%?

scouts clerks are managing editor or editor in chief of the law review plus being in the top 3 or 5 people in the class plus outstanding recommendations from professors that know the feeder judges and or the scotus justice
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Happy_Weasel on February 12, 2006, 01:51:44 PM
So basically the top 1% at YHS.
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Actual 1L on February 12, 2006, 01:55:05 PM
So basically the top 1% at YHS.

Plus extras.  And there are SCOTUS clerks from other schools.  Basically you have to be an absolute rockstar to even have a chance.  And even then, you probably don't have a chance.
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: SuicideNixon on February 12, 2006, 02:04:16 PM
So basically the top 1% at YHS.

Plus extras.  And there are SCOTUS clerks from other schools.  Basically you have to be an absolute rockstar to even have a chance.  And even then, you probably don't have a chance.

chicago is about as good as stanford, and both are a cut below YH. a cut below that is everything else, but you still have a chance from all the top schools
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Happy_Weasel on February 12, 2006, 03:10:29 PM
So, basically you have to be at a top class, at a top school AND a crony.
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: SuicideNixon on February 12, 2006, 05:30:42 PM
So, basically you have to be at a top class, at a top school AND a crony.

not necesarily a political crony, but they are definitely looking for people with relatively traditional legal perspectives
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Actual 1L on February 12, 2006, 05:32:15 PM
http://underneaththeirrobes.blogs.com/main/the_elect_supreme_court_clerks/

There you can read the bios of SCOTUS clerks.
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: absy on February 13, 2006, 02:42:32 PM
Hmmm....maybe. You just need to be in the top half to get a tier-appropriate job and to get into the top decile for a job a tier higher(or to get a SCOTUS clerkship if you are T14). That's what I figure.

you need to be in the top 5 people at harvard to have a shot at SCOTUS and the top 3 everywhere else in the T14

considering that HLS sends about 9 people per year, the number is a little off.  but I agree with the sentiments that it's top school + very high in the class + something else of interest (rhodes, friends with former clerk, etc)
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: SuicideNixon on February 13, 2006, 03:26:28 PM
Hmmm....maybe. You just need to be in the top half to get a tier-appropriate job and to get into the top decile for a job a tier higher(or to get a SCOTUS clerkship if you are T14). That's what I figure.

you need to be in the top 5 people at harvard to have a shot at SCOTUS and the top 3 everywhere else in the T14

considering that HLS sends about 9 people per year, the number is a little off.  but I agree with the sentiments that it's top school + very high in the class + something else of interest (rhodes, friends with former clerk, etc)

realistically its like the top 5 people plus the top editorial positions plus the 1 or 2 people with the best possible recommendations. but being in the top 5 people is probably the easier path
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: AH on February 14, 2006, 04:32:22 PM
*baff*
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: kingofspain on February 14, 2006, 09:22:34 PM
you definitely need to be a superstar to even get an interview, i would think that once you manage to get an interview how you do there would be the determining factor.  also you have to clerk for an appellate judge first.
there have been clerks outside the t14, i know notre dame has had 2 in the last few years and uiuc has had 1 or 2 as well.
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Actual 1L on February 14, 2006, 09:47:55 PM
you definitely need to be a superstar to even get an interview, i would think that once you manage to get an interview how you do there would be the determining factor.  also you have to clerk for an appellate judge first.
there have been clerks outside the t14, i know notre dame has had 2 in the last few years and uiuc has had 1 or 2 as well.

I believe GW has had a few, too.  Bottom line is not only do you need the grades, you need the writing and research skills.  And you get that by being published.  And impressing the hell out of an appellate judge who is connected.
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: AH on March 01, 2006, 10:29:04 PM
Doesn't W&L produce the third most scotus clerks?  They send out a postcard to that effect, but I may be confusing it something else to do with scotus.
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Alamo on March 02, 2006, 11:30:25 AM
Doesn't W&L produce the third most scotus clerks?  They send out a postcard to that effect, but I may be confusing it something else to do with scotus.

I believe the postcard to which you were referring said they had the third most ABA Presidents - not insignificant, but not nearly as significant as SCOTUS clerks; they did send a ton of postcards so you might be referring to a different one.  W&L did have a SCOTUS judge almost a hundred years ago, however. 
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: AH on March 03, 2006, 11:20:21 PM
There was def. one referencing SCOTUS, but I don't remember to what effect.  you're right, though, with so many postcards it is easy to confuse them. ;)
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: SuicideNixon on March 10, 2006, 05:36:36 AM
Doesn't W&L produce the third most scotus clerks?  They send out a postcard to that effect, but I may be confusing it something else to do with scotus.

no, the SCOTUS clerk list is practically the same as the USNEWS top 14 in a slightly different order
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: guyminuslife on April 21, 2006, 01:32:09 AM
I'm going to become a SCOTUS clerk by being in the top 50% at a T50 school and then offering Ginsburg my hot, sexy body. It will totally work.
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: YeShallBeGods on April 24, 2006, 10:48:52 AM
This post actually ended up becoming quite informative--thanks guys :)
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: some weird girl on May 11, 2006, 09:35:06 PM
As for the networking suggestion, I already started and I'm still in undergrad. Honestly a lot of lawyers and one retired and one active judge attend my church. Getting to know them and expressing my interest in law has helped me to get to work with a lawyer this summer, and get a letter of recommendation from the judge for my law school applications. I plan to keep in touch and when I finish law school I hope to keep these connections for use to finding a job.
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: thelawfool on August 07, 2006, 01:28:22 PM
i'm not reading this complete thread.  but zardoz, i hope you are a freaking genius because these questions tell me that you have some serious social issues.  what's with the ridiculous questions? 
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Paper Chaser on February 25, 2007, 01:01:31 AM
Most top law schools are nothing but diploma mills, if you get in you are golden. Example...Duke
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: ishi on March 15, 2007, 05:22:48 PM
well?  I mean what type of school would one have to go to be considered a real lawyer?

My firm hires a very well-paid trial attorney on a contractual basis.  He went to an unaccredited* school (San Francisco Law School).  Likewise, my ex-gf's mother went to Lincoln Law School (makes me think of Lincoln Logs) and she has a pretty successful family law practice.  She went part-time and worked all the way through, but she's doing well for herself.  It's hard to make it from no-name schools, but it can happen if you're serious.  I'd consider both of these people "real" lawyers.




* correct me if I'm wrong on that..
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on March 17, 2007, 01:46:47 AM
The University of San Francisco has been accredited since 1935.  There are a lot of schools through which there are pretty good job prospects.  You can make good money without working in a big law firm.  My friend's Dad went to Southwestern (which is by no means a national school), but he makes a lot of money.  A lot depends on how hard you work and the chances that you are willing to take.  Sometimes working for a really small firm pays off, because you can make a greater share of the profits once business picks up. 
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: ishi on March 17, 2007, 07:53:38 PM
The University of San Francisco has been accredited since 1935.  There are a lot of schools through which there are pretty good job prospects.  You can make good money without working in a big law firm.  My friend's Dad went to Southwestern (which is by no means a national school), but he makes a lot of money.  A lot depends on how hard you work and the chances that you are willing to take.  Sometimes working for a really small firm pays off, because you can make a greater share of the profits once business picks up. 

Assuming you were responding to my comment -- I was talking about San Francisco Law school, not USF.

http://www.sfls.edu/

not

http://www.usfca.edu/
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: The Poster on March 17, 2007, 08:00:17 PM
http://www.boxfreeconcepts.com/magicmill/
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on March 18, 2007, 01:01:33 PM
Hmmm, yeah I don't think SFLS is ABA accredited.  It might be provisionally accredited.  There are several schools like that in California.  In either case the rest of my comment still applies. 
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: ishi on March 19, 2007, 05:08:49 PM
Hmmm, yeah I don't think SFLS is ABA accredited.  It might be provisionally accredited.  There are several schools like that in California.  In either case the rest of my comment still applies. 

Right -- just clarifying.  I agree with the rest of your comment.
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Funky Cold Hrdina on April 27, 2007, 04:48:34 AM
tag
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: The Poster on April 29, 2007, 09:05:21 PM
(http://www.boxfreeconcepts.com/magicmill/mmban.gif)
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: apriori on April 30, 2007, 06:55:02 AM
Harvard.

Seriously, 600 lawyers a year?  F-A-C-T-O-R-Y.
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 12:44:24 PM
Ha, Cooley-3,000+ part time law students?  Of course they are ranked in the tope ten in the country. 
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Booyakasha2 on May 01, 2007, 12:49:01 PM
The University of San Francisco has been accredited since 1935.  There are a lot of schools through which there are pretty good job prospects.  You can make good money without working in a big law firm.  My friend's Dad went to Southwestern (which is by no means a national school), but he makes a lot of money.  A lot depends on how hard you work and the chances that you are willing to take.  Sometimes working for a really small firm pays off, because you can make a greater share of the profits once business picks up. 

Well the thing is, the legal market is very diff now.  Back then, there was no USNews, uber duber Biglaw (4000+ gloabal firms), and most importantly, tutition was CHEAP.  Even public schools these days are 25k or so.  Furthermore, TTT/TTTT are JUST AS expensive as a T14.  I would seriously pick a diff career choice if i had to go to a TTT/TTTT anywhere near full price.  Just isnt worth it. 
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 01:45:20 PM
Another way of thinking about it is that 3rd and 4th tier schools (although usually expensive-especially in California) make it possible for people with poor grades and LSAT scores to still go to law school.  Those schools aren't prestigious, but if you have the money then you can become a lawyer. 
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: SuicideNixon on May 01, 2007, 02:07:06 PM
Another way of thinking about it is that 3rd and 4th tier schools (although usually expensive-especially in California) make it possible for people with poor grades and LSAT scores to still go to law school.  Those schools aren't prestigious, but if you have the money then you can become a lawyer. 

but that was always the case, because you had 30,000 or fewer applicants for law school rather than 150,000. even 15 years ago harvard was easy as *&^% to get into. all you needed were some decent grades and the equivalent of a 165+ lsat

ultimately no law school is worth the $$$ though. investment banking
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Booyakasha2 on May 01, 2007, 03:01:06 PM
Another way of thinking about it is that 3rd and 4th tier schools (although usually expensive-especially in California) make it possible for people with poor grades and LSAT scores to still go to law school.  Those schools aren't prestigious, but if you have the money then you can become a lawyer. 

They make is possible to go to LS?...so basically make it possible for people to stroke their egos?  Those who want to be a lawyer no matter what, just to be able to say "im a lawyer" are fools and deserve to get ass raped by these diploma mills.
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 03:35:03 PM
I don't know if they want to go to stroke their egos or if they have just always wanted to become a lawyer. 
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: devingymnast on December 11, 2007, 08:12:07 PM
Sad to watch the legal profession turn on $$$$ and cents - that's not what law should be about, but there's no changing that on a widespread scale today.
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: devingymnast on December 11, 2007, 08:20:32 PM
Engineering social justice.
Ensuring access to comprehensive legal representation.
EDIT: Doing law for law's sake and its intrinsic interest / value, not for the instrumental means to $$$.

I'm not saying all lawyers should be paid $40k a year, and I'm not saying all lawyers should be doing public interest / pro bono. But the degree to which people are scared about $80k versus $125k is kind of obscene - that's a sh*tload of money either way. That's also not to say that individuals shouldn't pursue $$$ as a goal either - but it seems like that's the entire focus rather than the study of an amazing area of influence and potential for growth (law).

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread.
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: devingymnast on December 11, 2007, 08:34:27 PM
Social justice in the meta-sense of improving the legal field and contributing to a more internally and externally consistent legal system.

Don't take my comments on $$$ seriously - I'm very biased. I've grown up on $17k in a three-person household my entire life. I don't even know what I would do with $50k, let alone something with 6 digits.

And I think it's fine (good, even) that people pursue law with a passion to make the most $$$ they can, just as long as they are willing to meaningfully contribute to the profession itself as well and not exclusively in it for the $$$ (see social justice in the meta-sense above).
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: devingymnast on December 11, 2007, 08:43:23 PM
Well, there's a lot that's internally and externally inconsistent about the laws and legal philosophy we ground our system in today. I believe entering the legal profession is also a duty to contribute something to the field in an attempt to make it a better system than when you came in. Examples include the prior sentencing guidelines for crack vs. cocaine (before the change), the flawed evidentiary rules for sex crimes based on outdated common law, problems with pro se representation in divorce and family court, etc. Whether through practice or publication, we should all, as lawyers, attempt to better the legal system to make it into a less flawed one. Hope that all wasn't too generic.
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Alamo on December 12, 2007, 09:27:06 AM
Social justice in the meta-sense of improving the legal field and contributing to a more internally and externally consistent legal system.

improving the legal field?  what about it requires improving?  what about it is inconsistent?

My you ask a lot of questions!

I think social justice is great as a concept, but many people talk about the need to fix problems without addressing workable solutions, or thinking that their suggested solutions are the only "just" ones. 

Me?  I'm going to enjoy my $160K, and hopefully get to work on some complex puzzles while I'm at it.
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: devingymnast on December 12, 2007, 09:31:43 AM

I think social justice is great as a concept, but many people talk about the need to fix problems without addressing workable solutions, or thinking that their suggested solutions are the only "just" ones. 


^^^ Agreed.
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: devingymnast on December 12, 2007, 12:15:03 PM
Though I'm sure ^^^^^ was directed to Alamo... for me, definitely no BIGLAW. Hopefully (of course hopefully) COA and/or SCOTUS Clerkships --> public interest / appellate litigation --> academia. (Though if I get the Jack Kent Cooke Scholarship, I'll probably use the last 3 years of it to get my S.J.D.).
Title: Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
Post by: Alamo on December 12, 2007, 02:49:41 PM
My you ask a lot of questions!

I think social justice is great as a concept, but many people talk about the need to fix problems without addressing workable solutions, or thinking that their suggested solutions are the only "just" ones. 

Me?  I'm going to enjoy my $160K, and hopefully get to work on some complex puzzles while I'm at it.

i like asking people the big questions.  :D

heading to biglaw? 

Yep, assuming I don't hate it too much this summer.  I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to dig up a few OL threads where I trashed the large firm gig, but I feel like I'm making an informed decision, and I have a good feeling about the firm.

Yourself?