Law School Discussion

Applying to Law School => Law School Admissions => Topic started by: melicertes on January 17, 2006, 06:29:18 PM

Title: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: melicertes on January 17, 2006, 06:29:18 PM
Just got the letter in the mail today (nearly flipped until I realized it wasn't a rejection).  I am clearly not an auto-admit and I'm certainly glad to still be in the running, but what does this mean for my chances of getting in? 

LSAT: 172
GPA: 3.8ish

Sorry to ask, but I can't seem to get a consensus from past topics as to whether this is strongly negative, slightly negative, or just neutral. 
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: wunder on January 17, 2006, 06:31:53 PM
I don't know but I have to ask -- did you get an interview before you got the hold letter?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lovelovelovenyc on January 17, 2006, 06:33:05 PM
I would say you still have a strong shot.  What exactly did the letter say?  I know TS mentioned in his blog that your status would be explained in the letter.  Also, did you have the phone interview with him?

You definitely have strong numbers.  Can you submit additional info?  LOR?  Etc?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: melicertes on January 17, 2006, 06:36:29 PM
No phone interview (although it's not too late Toby!)

The letter just says they want to put off a decision until more of the applicant pool has been considered.  It also says a hold provides "no historical predictive value on individual applications". 

I am hoping this just means I am borderline, which I already knew.  But looking at LSN from last year, chances don't seem to be as good for deferrals (which I am assuming this is).
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lovelovelovenyc on January 17, 2006, 06:39:09 PM
Perhaps the killer lsat scale for December, the rest of the applicant pool will not be as impressive as hoped for.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: daylighthasbroken on January 17, 2006, 06:46:30 PM
Perhaps the killer lsat scale for December, the rest of the applicant pool will not be as impressive as hoped for.

seems likely
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: melicertes on January 17, 2006, 06:49:02 PM
  Can you submit additional info?  LOR?  Etc?

Sorry, missed this on my first read.  It does invite to send in supplemental material (LORs, updated transcrips, and a Why Harvard? essay are mentioned specifically.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: queencruella on January 17, 2006, 06:50:37 PM
  Can you submit additional info?  LOR?  Etc?

Sorry, missed this on my first read.  It does invite to send in supplemental material (LORs, updated transcrips, and a Why Harvard? essay are mentioned specifically.

Are you going to send in anything? It seems like a good idea.  You can mention how you would much rather go to a huge megalopolis of a school than a tiny hamlet. 
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: melicertes on January 17, 2006, 07:00:31 PM
Yeah, I am definitely going to get some LORs from my job (been working 1.5 yrs since school) and probably a Why Harvard (since I would prefer to go there for family reasons).
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: queencruella on January 17, 2006, 07:15:35 PM
Yeah, I am definitely going to get some LORs from my job (been working 1.5 yrs since school) and probably a Why Harvard (since I would prefer to go there for family reasons).

Sounds like a good plan. I see a phone call in your future!
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: bewitched on January 17, 2006, 07:35:48 PM
Hey Melicertes... I received that letter yesterday and I'm trying to stay positive about it. What I got from the letter was basically, "we're waiting to see if anyone better turns up."My stats are similar (4.0/172) - so I guess maybe the applicant pool really is that strong this year?  I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on January 17, 2006, 07:36:37 PM
Hey Melicertes... I received that letter yesterday and I'm trying to stay positive about it. What I got from the letter was basically, "we're waiting to see if anyone better turns up."My stats are similar (4.0/172) - so I guess maybe the applicant pool really is that strong this year?  I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!

I got the same letter today too  :( :'(
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: practiceboy02 on January 17, 2006, 07:38:15 PM
I think all 3 of you have an EXCELLENT shot of getting in!!!  If it's a top choice for you, you should send in all the supplementary stuff they ask for and firmly express your continued interest.  I'd be a little surprised if any of you didn't get in

GOOD LUCK!!  Maybe we'll end up as classmates there next fall and look back and laugh about your silly deferral
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lovelovelovenyc on January 17, 2006, 07:45:07 PM
Hey Melicertes... I received that letter yesterday and I'm trying to stay positive about it. What I got from the letter was basically, "we're waiting to see if anyone better turns up."My stats are similar (4.0/172) - so I guess maybe the applicant pool really is that strong this year?  I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!

I got the same letter today too  :( :'(

SHOCKED!  seriously...shocked.   :o
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on January 17, 2006, 07:48:27 PM
Hey Melicertes... I received that letter yesterday and I'm trying to stay positive about it. What I got from the letter was basically, "we're waiting to see if anyone better turns up."My stats are similar (4.0/172) - so I guess maybe the applicant pool really is that strong this year?  I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!

I got the same letter today too  :( :'(

SHOCKED!  seriously...shocked.   :o

I'm more disappointed than shocked :(

I think all 3 of you have an EXCELLENT shot of getting in!!!  If it's a top choice for you, you should send in all the supplementary stuff they ask for and firmly express your continued interest.  I'd be a little surprised if any of you didn't get in

GOOD LUCK!!  Maybe we'll end up as classmates there next fall and look back and laugh about your silly deferral

Thanks PB, I hope you're right, but the from looking at LSN from last year, it didn't seem that deferral odds were very good...
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: bewitched on January 17, 2006, 07:55:31 PM
Thanks lovelovelovenyc and pb... I was complaining to one of my professors earlier, who joked that (not to totally out myself here) it might have had something to do with a certain trade dispute between the usa and my fed. government  :P In all likelihood, they just hated my personal statement!
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: queencruella on January 17, 2006, 08:00:46 PM
Hey Melicertes... I received that letter yesterday and I'm trying to stay positive about it. What I got from the letter was basically, "we're waiting to see if anyone better turns up."My stats are similar (4.0/172) - so I guess maybe the applicant pool really is that strong this year?  I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!

Um, if I got an email inviting me to apply, this indicates that the pool really sucks this year and you all have a good chance, I think.  Either that or Harvard just really needs to beef up the Florida constituent. If anything, they'll see a serious downgrade in the applications they get late in the game, and all three of you held hopefulls will be in!
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: corky on January 17, 2006, 08:15:26 PM
I'm really surprised about the letter, but I still think all three of you have great shots.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: N. Fairchild on January 17, 2006, 08:38:24 PM
anyone on the west coast receive the H deferral letter today?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on January 17, 2006, 08:41:26 PM
Perhaps the killer lsat scale for December, the rest of the applicant pool will not be as impressive as hoped for.

no way.  the tough scale was to compensate for an easy exam.  it's the percentiles that matter and there's no reason to think that they were significantly different in december.

all three of you should sign up for the next possible lsat retake.  you may have missed the february deadline, but june is still possible and would help in the event that you get waitlisted.


Was the LSAT thing a joke?  I think all of us scored in the 99th percentile, and we would need to score at least a 178+ to make the retake worthwhile....
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: N. Fairchild on January 17, 2006, 08:43:50 PM
Perhaps the killer lsat scale for December, the rest of the applicant pool will not be as impressive as hoped for.

no way.  the tough scale was to compensate for an easy exam.  it's the percentiles that matter and there's no reason to think that they were significantly different in december.

all three of you should sign up for the next possible lsat retake.  you may have missed the february deadline, but june is still possible and would help in the event that you get waitlisted.


Was the LSAT thing a joke?  I think all of us scored in the 99th percentile, and we would need to score at least a 178+ to make the retake worthwhile....

Retaking the LSAT sounds like a really crazy idea, you already have your foot in the door with your numbers.  It would make more sense to put some time and effort into additional LOR, etc. 
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on January 17, 2006, 08:55:25 PM
Perhaps the killer lsat scale for December, the rest of the applicant pool will not be as impressive as hoped for.

no way.  the tough scale was to compensate for an easy exam.  it's the percentiles that matter and there's no reason to think that they were significantly different in december.

all three of you should sign up for the next possible lsat retake.  you may have missed the february deadline, but june is still possible and would help in the event that you get waitlisted.


Was the LSAT thing a joke?  I think all of us scored in the 99th percentile, and we would need to score at least a 178+ to make the retake worthwhile....

nope.  not kidding.  you only need to improve by one point to make it worth your while (they round up) and you'd need to decrease by 2 points for it to lower your average (they round up)

99th percentile of all test takers means nothing now.  172 is sub-median at H (apparently the median is now 173).  percentile within the applicant pool at the school is much more important.  and what's really important now is percentile within the pool of deferred applicants.

all the subjective mumbo jumbo about "significant score improvements" is a bunch of crap; an applicant's mean lsat score accounts for the majority of their decision at every law school in the country except for HYS, and at H it's gotta be somewhere in the vicinity of 50% of the total package

this is the truth

OP: being above-median guy is much better than being below-median guy.  go get yourself a 175 on feb 4.


Okay first of all, let me make clear that H is my first choice and I would love to go there, but if I had to take the June LSAT, wait until the end of June to get my score back, and then not hear from H until what, August(?), then I would just probably go somewhere else.

Second, of all I don't know the statistics, but how many people who score this high ever retake?  That has to look bad (almost arrogant).

Third, I have a 173 (so I'm at the median), also according to H's admission FAQ, the 75% GPA is 3.92, so I'm above that in a rigorous major.  I don't think numbers were the problem, maybe there was something else they didn't like.

Fourth, this is kind of beyond the scope of your post, and is not even remotely related to the discussion, but just my personal opinion:  once you break 170, the differences are so marginal I don't think it should matter - for example I got 6x on the June administration which got me a 173, 5x would get me a 175...would that make me any different, any smarter, or proven that I was smarter?  One lousy question...just my 2 cents.  :-\
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: N. Fairchild on January 17, 2006, 08:58:36 PM
Steve, aside from your numbers, was the rest of your app strong? 
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: queencruella on January 17, 2006, 08:59:23 PM
nope.  not kidding.  you only need to improve by one point to make it worth your while (they round up) and you'd need to decrease by 2 points for it to lower your average (they round up)

99th percentile of all test takers means nothing now.  172 is sub-median at H (apparently the median is now 173).  percentile within the applicant pool at the school is much more important.  and what's really important now is percentile within the pool of deferred applicants.

all the subjective mumbo jumbo about "significant score improvements" is a bunch of crap; an applicant's mean lsat score accounts for the majority of their decision at every law school in the country except for HYS, and at H it's gotta be somewhere in the vicinity of 50% of the total package

this is the truth

OP: being above-median guy is much better than being below-median guy.  go get yourself a 175 on feb 4.


This just sounds unwise to me since it's so risky. I'd say that at this point it's better to go for the LOR and the Why Harvard? essay since you can actually tell them more about yourself in both of those circumstances. I think that would do more to prove that you are smarter than one lousy question on the LSAT would, but that's just my opinion on the matter.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Law2k6 on January 17, 2006, 09:02:09 PM
I got an "on hold" letter from HLS also. I was kind of glad to get it since I figured it was an outright rejection. I'm a super long shot (numbers around the 25%-tile, non-URM, no remarkable life experiences), so it's not a surprise. I'm going to see if I can think of any good supplemental material to send.

Do you think it would help to say I've been accepted to ____ schools but Harvard is still my first choice and then give some reasons why?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on January 17, 2006, 09:03:29 PM
Steve, aside from your numbers, was the rest of your app strong? 

I'm obviously biased in that it was  ;D

I thought my LORs were strong, especially one from a law professor, who was impressed enough with my work that he asked me if he could write me a LOR.

I'm a traditional applicant, but I had several prestigious/rigor/long internships, I was also born in another country, and am fluent in that language.  Also even though my parents both have college degrees they are also from another country, so I am technically the first person in my immediate family to be attending college here, and I am the first to go to grad school period.

From the people who read my PS, most thought it was strong, well written, etc, but something like that is really subjective, I've been involved in a bunch of clubs as well, the only "weak" part of my application was that I did not have any substantial leadership roles in any of these clubs...
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on January 17, 2006, 09:04:39 PM
This is especially directed at steve.jd (since that 3.93 in engineering is like...wow, whoa) but I wouldn't take the deferrals last year as a sign of things to come for this year, since a new man is at the helm.  Toby Stock seems very certain of who merits a hold and who should get outright rejected, and I don't think they're holding people for the hell of it.  Even if they were doing that, last year's data won't help that much since they seem to be admitting people differently this year (for example, see Duke and their massive deferrals this year -- they didn't admit most deferred last year, but this year, there's no way they can't)

Thanks neurotica, my one glimmer of hope is that H did not receive my updated grades before making their decision (I had a 4.0 last semester with nothing but 300 level courses - except for one) :)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Roark on January 17, 2006, 09:06:24 PM
I have to admit: it's discouraging to see people above the median in GPA/LSAT being deferred. I wonder what does that. Any ideas, Steve JD?

My pre-law advisor suggested that one serious negative would be not demonstrating that you have very strong writing abilities (either through recommenders or PS). Maybe sending something to show that you do write well, plus the Why Harvard addendum, would help?

I posted this question previously in the wrong thread: What do we make of the people who got calls from TS before the holidays, but haven't been dinged, accepted, or "held"? That only a handful of hold letters were sent last week, and there are lots of hold letters on their way at the end of this week? Or that a ding/accept decision should be here soon?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on January 17, 2006, 09:09:56 PM
I have to admit: it's discouraging to see people above the median in GPA/LSAT being deferred. I wonder what does that. Any ideas, Steve JD?

My pre-law advisor suggested that one serious negative would be not demonstrating that you have very strong writing abilities (either through recommenders or PS). Maybe sending something to show that you do write well, plus the Why Harvard addendum, would help?

I posted this question previously in the wrong thread: What do we make of the people who got calls from TS before the holidays, but haven't been dinged, accepted, or "held"? That only a handful of hold letters were sent last week, and there are lots of hold letters on their way at the end of this week? Or that a ding/accept decision should be here soon?

I don't know why one person gets deferred, while another gets dinged, while a third gets rejected...

I will certainly send in as much supporting materials as possible to better my chances...as for writing...I thought that my PS was pretty good, and made me seem like a pretty good writer (I hope ;))

As for people who got calls before the holidays clearly no one knows, but if I were to guess:

I'd say that the other reviewer wasn't as enthusiastic as for some of the one week turnaround acceptances, and they went to full committee - I don't think anyone is getting accepted without at least a "congrats" call, I doubt an acceptance will just end up in the mail...but who knows maybe yours will get here tommorrow :)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: N. Fairchild on January 17, 2006, 09:11:40 PM
Steve, aside from your numbers, was the rest of your app strong? 

I'm obviously biased in that it was  ;D

I thought my LORs were strong, especially one from a law professor, who was impressed enough with my work that he asked me if he could write me a LOR.

I'm a traditional applicant, but I had several prestigious/rigor/long internships, I was also born in another country, and am fluent in that language.  Also even though my parents both have college degrees they are also from another country, so I am technically the first person in my immediate family to be attending college here, and I am the first to go to grad school period.

From the people who read my PS, most thought it was strong, well written, etc, but something like that is really subjective, I've been involved in a bunch of clubs as well, the only "weak" part of my application was that I did not have any substantial leadership roles in any of these clubs...

hard to say... seems like it would be an easy admit, but like we've seen, you never know.  I agree with the consensus that you should definitely send in some additional material, perhaps highlight an aspect of yourself that didn't come through in round one.  I think it will work out in the end for you.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: transistor on January 17, 2006, 09:21:51 PM
Steve, nice engineering GPA! What type of engineering?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on January 17, 2006, 09:25:47 PM
Steve, nice engineering GPA! What type of engineering?

Computer Engineering - its a hybrid of Electrical Engineering (60-65%) and Comp-Sci
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: John Galt on January 17, 2006, 09:27:36 PM
I have to admit: it's discouraging to see people above the median in GPA/LSAT being deferred. I wonder what does that. Any ideas, Steve JD?

My pre-law advisor suggested that one serious negative would be not demonstrating that you have very strong writing abilities (either through recommenders or PS). Maybe sending something to show that you do write well, plus the Why Harvard addendum, would help?

I posted this question previously in the wrong thread: What do we make of the people who got calls from TS before the holidays, but haven't been dinged, accepted, or "held"? That only a handful of hold letters were sent last week, and there are lots of hold letters on their way at the end of this week? Or that a ding/accept decision should be here soon?



I'm thinking toby just forgot about you. He went home for christmas, had some egg nog, and picked up where he left off and forgot he had you guys still waiting.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Nemesis on January 17, 2006, 09:28:48 PM
I'm thinking toby just forgot about you. He went home for christmas, had some egg nog, and picked up where he left off and forgot he had you guys still waiting.


Brilliant theory!
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: transistor on January 17, 2006, 09:28:55 PM
Steve, nice engineering GPA! What type of engineering?

Computer Engineering - its a hybrid of Electrical Engineering (60-65%) and Comp-Sci
Wow, I'm impressed. With a 3.93, I thought it must have been industrial engineering  ;)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: sunsfan on January 17, 2006, 09:29:16 PM
Do you guys think that schools will look at the Feb score if you retake?  One the H website it says they won't look at the Feb score "under normal circumstances" or something like that.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on January 17, 2006, 09:30:02 PM
Steve, nice engineering GPA! What type of engineering?

Computer Engineering - its a hybrid of Electrical Engineering (60-65%) and Comp-Sci
Wow, I'm impressed. With a 3.93, I thought it must have been industrial engineering  ;)

Don't you mean "Imaginary Engineering"? ;
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lovelovelovenyc on January 17, 2006, 09:30:35 PM
I have to admit: it's discouraging to see people above the median in GPA/LSAT being deferred. I wonder what does that. Any ideas, Steve JD?

My pre-law advisor suggested that one serious negative would be not demonstrating that you have very strong writing abilities (either through recommenders or PS). Maybe sending something to show that you do write well, plus the Why Harvard addendum, would help?

I posted this question previously in the wrong thread: What do we make of the people who got calls from TS before the holidays, but haven't been dinged, accepted, or "held"? That only a handful of hold letters were sent last week, and there are lots of hold letters on their way at the end of this week? Or that a ding/accept decision should be here soon?



I'm thinking toby just forgot about you. He went home for christmas, had some egg nog, and picked up where he left off and forgot he had you guys still waiting.

Haha...sounds good to me.  Could you give your buddy TS a little reminder, Galt?   If not for me, for Annabel Lee.  ;)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: queencruella on January 17, 2006, 09:32:00 PM
Maybe he had too much eggnog right before making those pre-holiday calls and can't remember what he talked about?  He's still picking his brain trying to remember just in case one of you appeared to be a homicidal maniac.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Buzz619 on January 17, 2006, 09:35:15 PM
seeing this thread leads me to believe i will have a letter waiting for me in the next few days. *tear*
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: almuhajaba on January 17, 2006, 09:36:02 PM
Steve, nice engineering GPA! What type of engineering?

Computer Engineering - its a hybrid of Electrical Engineering (60-65%) and Comp-Sci
Wow, I'm impressed. With a 3.93, I thought it must have been industrial engineering  ;)

 >:( my dad is an industrial engineer!!!
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Roark on January 17, 2006, 09:37:08 PM
Maybe he had too much eggnog right before making those pre-holiday calls and can't remember what he talked about?  He's still picking his brain trying to remember just in case one of you appeared to be a homicidal maniac.

Hahah. :D Sorry 'bout that, then, Annabel and lovelove.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on January 17, 2006, 09:44:46 PM
Steve, nice engineering GPA! What type of engineering?

Computer Engineering - its a hybrid of Electrical Engineering (60-65%) and Comp-Sci
Wow, I'm impressed. With a 3.93, I thought it must have been industrial engineering  ;)

 >:( my dad is an industrial engineer!!!


sorry hehe :) ;) :-*

seeing this thread leads me to believe i will have a letter waiting for me in the next few days. *tear*

I think they are sending the 11/29 complete people right now, so I wouldn't worry...for now :(
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: almuhajaba on January 17, 2006, 09:46:20 PM
I was complete on 11/29...woohoo! Harvard rejection should be in the mail tomorrow morning... ::)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: John Galt on January 17, 2006, 09:56:53 PM
What I find particularly interesting is that none of the call people (the "purgatory" ones) got a hold or a ding. Obviously  you guys' file has been reviewed. If they were going to look at you in the future, I'd imagine they'd hold you. If they thought you were admittable, they would've dinged you. So I wonder what the hold up is...
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on January 17, 2006, 09:58:42 PM
What I find particularly interesting is that none of the call people (the "purgatory" ones) got a hold or a ding. Obviously  you guys' file has been reviewed. If they were going to look at you in the future, I'd imagine they'd hold you. If they thought you were admittable, they would've dinged you. So I wonder what the hold up is...

Yeah I'm wonder that too JG, the only guess I can come up with is that the other reviewer since TStock sends it to another faculty member after the call (I think?) decided to send it to committee (which takes awhile)  :-\ ???
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: John Galt on January 17, 2006, 10:09:34 PM
What I find particularly interesting is that none of the call people (the "purgatory" ones) got a hold or a ding. Obviously  you guys' file has been reviewed. If they were going to look at you in the future, I'd imagine they'd hold you. If they thought you were admittable, they would've dinged you. So I wonder what the hold up is...

Yeah I'm wonder that too JG, the only guess I can come up with is that the other reviewer since TStock sends it to another faculty member after the call (I think?) decided to send it to committee (which takes awhile)  :-\ ???

Steve...I know its no consolation...but i'm really shocked man. I'm really hoping you get in, but i don't want to say anything more. i feel like I jinxed ya yesterday.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: snikrep on January 17, 2006, 10:45:18 PM
Yeah crap, so its clear they don't give much of a boost for us hardcore engineering guys (we went through 4 years of hell for NOTHING!?! $*&#$*).

They seem to forget that we're the type that, oh, make nuclear bombs, the internet, etc. - Toby better not piss off the MIT grad who goes haywire, hacks into his webcam and broadcasts him picking his nose on COOLEYPWNSYOU.com
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: jg983 on January 17, 2006, 11:10:58 PM
Ok, sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but of the people I remember last year who were placed on hold, none of them were eventually admitted (including TDPookie, of LSD/Yale fame). There are people who get in off the "hold" list, but *last year* they were few and far between. I'd take this early notification as an opportunity to get everything you possibly can in in favor of your candidacy -- write an additional essay, submit extra LORs, etc. The only thing I wouldn't do is take the LSAT again. Doing so isn't only pointless, it's lame. Seriously.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: thescreed on January 17, 2006, 11:48:33 PM
The only thing I wouldn't do is take the LSAT again. Doing so isn't only pointless, it's lame. Seriously.

how is it pointless?  reasons?  evidence?  i'm hoping for something a little bit more substantial.

How about a peek at the repeater data. 

Taking the average scores of retakers, of the eleven scores from 170-180, the average score of retakers was lower than the original score in nine categories.

Taking the score improvement tack, of the 51 people who scored 170 or higher and retook the test, 29 scored the same or lower -- that's 57%. (for the purpose under discussion, scoring the same is almost as bad as scoring lower).  Moreover, if you throw out the 170 scorers (who obviously had the most room for improvement) and throw out the one person who scored 180 (who had nowhere to go, but stayed the same), you get 20/34, nearly 60%. Not great odds.

Moreover, given the scales on the last three tests with multiple missed scores above 170, the odds that missing one question will cost you two points are higher than has been the case historically. I fell in the "score hole" and so did Steve and so did PB and so do a lot of people. Very risky.

Then there are the hundred bucks and countless hours of prep getting thrown down the drain on this risky scheme.

Finally, I think HD makes the most compelling argument -- retaking the LSAT with a 99+ percentile score is one of the most toolish things a person can do.

Seriously, dude, recommending a June retake to get off the waitlist sounds pretty friggin' stupid. I can't believe you mean it, I think you're trolling.

EDIT: Forgot the cite:
http://www.lsac.org/pdfs/2005-2006/info-book-2005-new.pdf
see page 16
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: snikrep on January 18, 2006, 12:26:10 AM
Well, you could retake just for the heck of it in June if you're reasonably satisfied with your performance this cycle, but would like one last hail mary shot at Harvard.  If you pull a 177-180 out of the bag and can lift up your score, ditch your deposit at whatever TTT you've decided to head to, and reapply early for next year.  If you score the same or lower, thank your lucky stars that you've already been accepted to good schools, and head off to law school confident that you're in the right place.

I really don't see the downside if somebody's dream has been Harvard.  The other option is to convince yourself that HLS=TTT as I have been working feverishly to do lately, and then you can forget about the whole thing  ;D.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: jg983 on January 18, 2006, 01:09:01 AM
I was under the impression that many, if not most, people on the "hold" list heard one way or another before June.

Mister Big, your point is valid -- the odds off the hold list are probably at least as good as the odds on regular acceptance. That said, the group of people that constitute the applicant pool for the "hold" group is of much higher caliber than that which constitutes the general pool. In other words, it's more difficult to stand out among those who've already stood out. On the other hand, this may be totally specious reasoning. I've been up for waaaaay too long and have had two glasses of wine, so put me in my place if I deserve it.

I don't know anything about Toby Stock; things could be radically different this year. I'm just guessing that, if they were, the applicant community would have caught wind of that change by now and steve wouldn't seem like such an aberration. But only time will tell, I guess.

BTW, Screed, I was never able to get ahold of JT, but have heard that he's back in class this semester. Did you ever get that mess sorted out?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lovelovelovenyc on January 18, 2006, 03:46:27 AM
What I find particularly interesting is that none of the call people (the "purgatory" ones) got a hold or a ding. Obviously  you guys' file has been reviewed. If they were going to look at you in the future, I'd imagine they'd hold you. If they thought you were admittable, they would've dinged you. So I wonder what the hold up is...

Yeah I'm wonder that too JG, the only guess I can come up with is that the other reviewer since TStock sends it to another faculty member after the call (I think?) decided to send it to committee (which takes awhile)  :-\ ???

I would guess that too.  It just seems so odd that every person who had this happen to them was called in a specific period of time (the few days before christmas)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: dw05 on January 18, 2006, 05:23:11 AM
One thing to look at about the deferral to acceptance rate from last year is that I think that most of the deferrals came out somewhat later last year (like Feb/March-ish), so they might have served a different purpose in the admissions process, something more like a pseudo-waitlist than a typical deferral.  I'm genuinely surprised that some of you have gotten the hold letter with your stats, so I'll echo the advice of others here and say if you really want to go to Harvard, start working on some amazing supplementals for you app.  I certainly don't think it's a lost cause.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: corky on January 18, 2006, 08:33:50 AM
The people on hold may also want to go to a prelaw advisor or a friend knowledgeable about the law school process and have them look over any gaps in your materials. Steve, you mentioned that you had no leadership experience, so if something like that stood out to the person reading it they could say "why don't you include something demonstrating leadership skills/collaborating with people just so they don't pigeonhole you as the engineering student stereotype."  It's hard to do for your own app, so it makes sense to have others lend a fresh pair of eyes. 
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: melicertes on January 18, 2006, 09:52:50 AM
I am more shocked about the 3.93/173 and 4.0/172 deferrals than my own (3.8/172).  Harvard certainly can't keep up these high numbers... Not everyone can be a 3.9+/175+, and if they aren't letting steve and bewitched in, who are they going to let in???
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: daylighthasbroken on January 18, 2006, 09:58:59 AM
I am more shocked about the 3.93/173 and 4.0/172 deferrals than my own (3.8/172).  Harvard certainly can't keep up these high numbers... Not everyone can be a 3.9+/175+, and if they aren't letting steve and bewitched in, who are they going to let in???

dunno, but probably not me either
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: melicertes on January 18, 2006, 10:00:38 AM
By the way, any thoughts on how many additional LORs would be advisable?  I am fairly confident I can get about 3 compelling LORs from a variety of sources, but is this too much (or not enough)? 
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on January 18, 2006, 10:19:52 AM
By the way, any thoughts on how many additional LORs would be advisable?  I am fairly confident I can get about 3 compelling LORs from a variety of sources, but is this too much (or not enough)? 


How many LORs do you have already?  I think H maxes out at 4...
Hey Melicertes... I received that letter yesterday and I'm trying to stay positive about it. What I got from the letter was basically, "we're waiting to see if anyone better turns up."My stats are similar (4.0/172) - so I guess maybe the applicant pool really is that strong this year?  I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!

I got the same letter today too  :( :'(

That's insane. :(  *hugs*

Thanks Lily :)

I <3 you too ;)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: chombi3 on January 18, 2006, 10:27:40 AM
i'm still in purgatory too...no call, no e-mail, no reject/hold letter...i think harvard's forgotten about me  :'(
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: orlando jackson on January 18, 2006, 10:39:36 AM
What I find particularly interesting is that none of the call people (the "purgatory" ones) got a hold or a ding. Obviously  you guys' file has been reviewed. If they were going to look at you in the future, I'd imagine they'd hold you. If they thought you were admittable, they would've dinged you. So I wonder what the hold up is...

Yeah I'm wonder that too JG, the only guess I can come up with is that the other reviewer since TStock sends it to another faculty member after the call (I think?) decided to send it to committee (which takes awhile)  :-\ ???


I would guess that too.  It just seems so odd that every person who had this happen to them was called in a specific period of time (the few days before christmas)

well, every person who this happened to was called in that period, but not everyone who was callen then had this happen to them.  there were several who got the call at the same time and then got an acceptance on the friday before christmas.  i think the more likely link between us all is that we have numbers that do not make us autoadmits and that our files have had to go on to a longer review before being decided on.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: fatcat on January 18, 2006, 10:40:40 AM
The people on hold may also want to go to a prelaw advisor or a friend knowledgeable about the law school process and have them look over any gaps in your materials. Steve, you mentioned that you had no leadership experience, so if something like that stood out to the person reading it they could say "why don't you include something demonstrating leadership skills/collaborating with people just so they don't pigeonhole you as the engineering student stereotype."  It's hard to do for your own app, so it makes sense to have others lend a fresh pair of eyes. 
steve.jd...
I definitely agree that the features you'd want to emphasize upon resubmitting (if not sufficiently emphasized before) are:
1) writing ability -- I think that law schools are particularly concerned about this for math/sci majors. Even with high numbers, if they don't see sufficient evidence of this skill, they may be concerned. Important question: did you blow off the LSAT writing sample? If I were an adcomm, I'd look at that sample more carefully for a math/sci applicant.
2) diverse background and how it will contribute to the student body
3) leadership/interaction skills -- again, the engineering major might be making them skeptical here and looking for more.

I DO NOT think you should retake the LSAT. Your numbers are high enough that they can't be skeptical about your numbers in themselves. They could be skeptical about what your numbers mean (see "writing ability" above).

Another question: not to make you paranoid, but are you SURE your LORs were effusively good? If they were only lukewarm about you, or if they didn't give a good sense of your writing ability and analytical ability, they might end up leaving harvard wanting for more info. I also ask cuz I wondered about this for my friend who applied last year with solid stats and was put on hold. He also got some other weird admissions decisions: like was admitted to some school's class for the NEXT year, not the coming one. Very bizarre so i wondered if it was his LORs. You too got the weird result of a penn deferral... so maybe this is the issue? just brainstorming here.

best of luck. i'm sure you are eminently qualified so if you don't get in, then harvard's a tool. (and i say that as an HC undergrad)  :P
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lovelovelovenyc on January 18, 2006, 10:56:18 AM
What I find particularly interesting is that none of the call people (the "purgatory" ones) got a hold or a ding. Obviously  you guys' file has been reviewed. If they were going to look at you in the future, I'd imagine they'd hold you. If they thought you were admittable, they would've dinged you. So I wonder what the hold up is...

Yeah I'm wonder that too JG, the only guess I can come up with is that the other reviewer since TStock sends it to another faculty member after the call (I think?) decided to send it to committee (which takes awhile)  :-\ ???


I would guess that too.  It just seems so odd that every person who had this happen to them was called in a specific period of time (the few days before christmas)

well, every person who this happened to was called in that period, but not everyone who was callen then had this happen to them.  there were several who got the call at the same time and then got an acceptance on the friday before christmas.  i think the more likely link between us all is that we have numbers that do not make us autoadmits and that our files have had to go on to a longer review before being decided on.


Oops, sorry.  Forgot that you and Roark were that Sunday before.  I thought everyone had talked to him on the 21st (Wednesday).  :-[
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: anon123 on January 18, 2006, 11:25:53 AM
My girlfriend (on whose behalf I troll these boards while sitting at my desk job) is among the few called earlier in December (around 12/12) who have heard nothing since then.

One possibility is that some faculty members just take longer to review applications than others...
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: B.K. on January 18, 2006, 11:30:16 AM
i'm still in purgatory too...no call, no e-mail, no reject/hold letter...i think harvard's forgotten about me  :'(

Chombi, I'm right there with you:

Submitted 10/11. Complete 11/29. No call e-mail, no hold ( or not as of yesterday, at least), nothing.

I definitely feel forgotten about. It doesn't seem like anyone who has been complete as long as we have has received a call e-mail recently. So, like, what's gonna happen to us?

For those who don't know, my numbers are 175/3.62. I'll take anyone's baseless speculation, thanks. ;)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on January 18, 2006, 01:35:42 PM
i'm still in purgatory too...no call, no e-mail, no reject/hold letter...i think harvard's forgotten about me  :'(

Chombi, I'm right there with you:

Submitted 10/11. Complete 11/29. No call e-mail, no hold ( or not as of yesterday, at least), nothing.

I definitely feel forgotten about. It doesn't seem like anyone who has been complete as long as we have has received a call e-mail recently. So, like, what's gonna happen to us?

For those who don't know, my numbers are 175/3.62. I'll take anyone's baseless speculation, thanks. ;)

Looking at LSN, no one past the 11/29 group (aside from auto-admits) has gotten anything, the 11/29 group is huge (and at least on LSN) is the biggest group, so it's probably gonna take a bit to go through everyone, I wouldn't worry about until ppl from the 12/8 or 12/13 groups start getting decisions
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: chombi3 on January 18, 2006, 04:38:39 PM
hey, does anybody know what happened to bassdesire? he's totally disappeared from LSD...all his old posts are deleted.  come back bass, you were my buddy!   :'(
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Pancho on January 18, 2006, 05:29:49 PM
hey, does anybody know what happened to bassdesire? he's totally disappeared from LSD...all his old posts are deleted.  come back bass, you were my buddy!   :'(

Really?!  His LSN is still up (http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/display.php?user=bassdesire).     
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: chombi3 on January 18, 2006, 05:39:10 PM
yea he just replied to the post i left him on LSN...another person with "will power" shunning LSD and all its addictive thrills  :P
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on January 18, 2006, 05:40:50 PM
yea he just replied to the post i left him on LSN...another person with "will power" shunning LSD and all its addictive thrills  :P

Yeah I just looked at his LSN too, I think I'm becoming a celebrity, lol ;)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: bass on January 19, 2006, 08:22:18 PM
I think he's just scared his friend IRL screwed over one of my best friends. My scary reputation and all ;)

(Well, I'm not sure if he's actually friends with him.  But they know each other.) 

The Bass is BACK!  And with news, but more on that in a moment.

I know your friend?  I wonder who...


Here's the news:  I AM IN THIS THREAD BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN HELD AT HARVARD!!!

There are several people who committed to hat-eating and the like (you know who you are)...well get those derbies ready!!!
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on January 19, 2006, 08:23:17 PM
I think he's just scared his friend IRL screwed over one of my best friends. My scary reputation and all ;)

(Well, I'm not sure if he's actually friends with him.  But they know each other.) 

The Bass is BACK!  And with news, but more on that in a moment.

I know your friend?  I wonder who...


Here's the news:  I AM IN THIS THREAD BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN HELD AT HARVARD!!!

There are several people who committed to hat-eating and the like (you know who you are)...well get those derbies ready!!!

Welcome to the club Bass!

Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lovelovelovenyc on January 19, 2006, 08:26:25 PM
I think he's just scared his friend IRL screwed over one of my best friends. My scary reputation and all ;)

(Well, I'm not sure if he's actually friends with him.  But they know each other.) 

The Bass is BACK!  And with news, but more on that in a moment.

I know your friend?  I wonder who...


Here's the news:  I AM IN THIS THREAD BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN HELD AT HARVARD!!!

There are several people who committed to hat-eating and the like (you know who you are)...well get those derbies ready!!!

are you freaking kidding me?  i am shocked, awed and bamboozled
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: bass on January 19, 2006, 08:27:30 PM
are you freaking kidding me?  i am shocked, awed and bamboozled

No kidding.  I almost didn't apply to Yale because I had my heart set on Harvard.  Well...maybe not anymore.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on January 19, 2006, 08:28:34 PM
are you freaking kidding me?  i am shocked, awed and bamboozled

No kidding.  I almost didn't apply to Yale because I had my heart set on Harvard.  Well...maybe not anymore.

Since the first two batches virtually no one with less than a 175 has been accepted according to LSN...
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: bass on January 19, 2006, 08:30:11 PM
Since the first two batches virtually no one with less than a 175 has been accepted according to LSN...

But why wasn't I in an earlier batch?  I applied at the first possible instant.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lovelovelovenyc on January 19, 2006, 08:32:55 PM
i think you both will be getting in eventually.  i wouldn't make any judgments on your chances based on last year's holds.  TS has made this quite the odd process.  (but i just can't see them not admitting you guys)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on January 19, 2006, 08:33:40 PM
Since the first two batches virtually no one with less than a 175 has been accepted according to LSN...

But why wasn't I in an earlier batch?  I applied at the first possible instant.

If I knew precisely how the process works I'd tell you, but I can hypothesize:

-Its doubtful that TStock reads EVERY application...
-Presumably there might be four of five "initial readers" who skim applications - if they are very impressed with one, they forward it on to TStock for approval to make "the call"
-Obviously every reader is different, and some prefer LSAT, while others prefer ECs, etc
-Your reader may have been : 175+ or bust, and put you in the "look at later" pile.. :-\  :P
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: dw05 on January 19, 2006, 08:34:44 PM

Here's the news:  I AM IN THIS THREAD BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN HELD AT HARVARD!!!

There are several people who committed to hat-eating and the like (you know who you are)...well get those derbies ready!!!

Wow.  Just wow.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on January 19, 2006, 08:36:09 PM
i think you both will be getting in eventually.  i wouldn't make any judgments on your chances based on last year's holds.  TS has made this quite the odd process.  (but i just can't see them not admitting you guys)

Thanks lovelove ;)

I'm not very optomistic about that...but I've sent in all the additional materials I had...and I"m just not gonna worry about it, because life is too short ;)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: bass on January 19, 2006, 08:38:35 PM
Honestly, I doubt that I'll get in.  I'll send in some extra stuff, but nothing that will wow them (though I'll hear within 2 weeks about a second law review article that may be published).  When it comes down to it, I am less motivated because Yale is such a good option.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on January 19, 2006, 08:41:30 PM

best of luck. i'm sure you are eminently qualified so if you don't get in, then harvard's a tool. (and i say that as an HC undergrad)  :P


Sorry, just noticed your post!

Thank you!!!!!!!  :-*
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: fatcat on January 19, 2006, 10:52:16 PM

best of luck. i'm sure you are eminently qualified so if you don't get in, then harvard's a tool. (and i say that as an HC undergrad)  :P


Sorry, just noticed your post!

Thank you!!!!!!!  :-*

haha, no prob. no matter what happens, i know you'll have awesome options. (You too, bass.)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: daylighthasbroken on January 19, 2006, 11:31:11 PM
When it comes down to it, I am less motivated because Yale is such a good option.

Sheer understatement.  100% pure quality.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: melicertes on January 20, 2006, 07:34:43 AM
I can't believe you got deferred, Bass.  This has to be the most shocking admissions decision that I have seen this cycle.  I still think you're in...

By the way, for the rest of the deferrals, what are you planning on sending in?  At the moment, I am thinking about 2 additional LORs (one to send in now, one in case I get WL'd).  I will also probably write a diversity statement. 
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: The Dread Pirate Roberts on January 20, 2006, 07:57:35 AM
I can't believe you got deferred, Bass.  This has to be the most shocking admissions decision that I have seen this cycle.  I still think you're in...

Ditto.  The hold is just bizzare.  I can't imagine what they're thinking, but I'm sure they'll come to their sense soon.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: snikrep on January 20, 2006, 09:11:01 AM
Just received the deferral today in the mail...I was completely expecting a rejection or a waitlist, since it was such a thin envelope...

why are law schools sooooooo indecisive??!!!

For your "supporting information" - just send your Yale acceptance letter, that'll get Toby's feathers all ruffled.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: practiceboy02 on January 20, 2006, 09:16:42 AM
:D :D :D :D :D :D

oh BELIEVE ME I've had my share of fun with that when withdrawing from Cornell and Fordham  ;)



Please tell me you didn't tell Cornell and Fordham that you were withdrawing because you got into Yale
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: The Dread Pirate Roberts on January 20, 2006, 09:20:47 AM
There are several people who committed to hat-eating and the like (you know who you are)...well get those derbies ready!!!

I said I'd eat my hat if you got dinged, and I still don't think that's happening.  So my hat is going to remain uneaten.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: practiceboy02 on January 20, 2006, 09:49:37 AM
Well I'm glad that you had your "share of fun" in doing so. 

If I recall correctly, none of the 4 schools I withdrew from asked me why I was withdrawing. 
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: jg983 on January 20, 2006, 10:13:18 AM
Well I'm glad that you had your "share of fun" in doing so. 

If I recall correctly, none of the 4 schools I withdrew from asked me why I was withdrawing. 

A lot of schools do this in the form of an "admitted student questionaire" that they send out after seat deposits are due.

Not really relevant; just felt like saying it.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: practiceboy02 on January 20, 2006, 10:15:46 AM
Very true, I hadn't reached "decision" at any of the schools I withdrew from

On a somewhat related note, I think that my online persona has become really bitter-sounding for some reason.  Maybe it's my vicious hangover... oy...

I'm sorry for sounding like a total d0uche this morning
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: snikrep on January 20, 2006, 10:22:58 AM
Very true, I hadn't reached "decision" at any of the schools I withdrew from

On a somewhat related note, I think that my online persona has become really bitter-sounding for some reason.  Maybe it's my vicious hangover... oy...

I'm sorry for sounding like a total d0uche this morning

Just look in the mirror and repeat after me, "I got into Harvard, I got into Harvard, I got into Harvard."

You'll be feeling better in no time ;).
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: chombi3 on January 20, 2006, 10:41:11 AM
oh my god bass! i haven't checked this LSD in an ungodly 15 hours or so....that is absolutely insane.  insane.  i'm sorry......but just keep looking at that yale acceptance for comfort.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Roark on January 20, 2006, 11:07:19 AM
So many holds -- some of them must be headed for acceptance after the 2/1 deadline. Pancho, did you go complete on 11/29? I forget if you had gotten a call...
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: B.K. on January 20, 2006, 11:11:51 AM
hey pancho, sorry to hear that.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lovelovelovenyc on January 20, 2006, 11:13:29 AM
So many holds -- some of them must be headed for acceptance after the 2/1 deadline. Pancho, did you go complete on 11/29? I forget if you had gotten a call...

what are your numbers pancho?  all i know is that people get relief if you have not yet heard from schools.  ;)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: John Galt on January 20, 2006, 11:13:55 AM
yeah pancho. hate to hear that bro. Are you going to do any of the additional essays or update transcripts?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: chombi3 on January 20, 2006, 11:52:36 AM
i'm sorry to hear that pancho.  i have a feeling mine's in the mail...
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: John Galt on January 20, 2006, 12:23:09 PM
Annabel Lee got deferred. :-[ She wanted me to let you guys know.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: practiceboy02 on January 20, 2006, 12:24:13 PM
That sucks  :(

I think it's pretty obvious that there are a ton more deferrals this year than there were last year
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: bass on January 20, 2006, 12:27:27 PM
That does suck.  Man.  Good to have company I guess.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lovelovelovenyc on January 20, 2006, 12:27:46 PM
Annabel Lee got deferred. :-[ She wanted me to let you guys know.

wow.  these really are a bit surprising. 
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: chombi3 on January 20, 2006, 12:31:01 PM
these holds aren't doing much to raise toby's stock (ha..ha..ha...) here on LSD.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: bass on January 20, 2006, 12:32:43 PM
these holds aren't doing much to raise toby's stock (ha..ha..ha...) here on LSD.
My hope is that his stock rises soon in your book, after experiencing his irresistible telephone charm.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on January 20, 2006, 12:34:23 PM
What I don't get is why are they sending deferrals to people who werent called - why say anything at all? It's not as though there is an early action option.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: orlando jackson on January 20, 2006, 12:34:44 PM
Annabel Lee got deferred. :-[ She wanted me to let you guys know.


wow.  this is bad news.  i literally just came on to see if any of my fellow call receivers had heard anything yet, and this is exactly what I didn't wan't to hear.  i guess i should go check my mailbox.
lovelove, roark?  what do you think?  first pedestrian, now annabbel, are we next?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Pancho on January 20, 2006, 12:38:03 PM
There are a lot more deferrals this year than last, I can clearly see this.  Perhaps I am too optimistic, but I don't think it's necessarily bad news.   
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lovelovelovenyc on January 20, 2006, 12:38:42 PM
why say anything at all? It's not as though there is an early action option.

i agree.  if decisions are not "due" until April, why send a deferral in January?  
Annabel Lee got deferred. :-[ She wanted me to let you guys know.


wow.  this is bad news.  i literally just came on to see if any of my fellow call receivers had heard anything yet, and this is exactly what I didn't wan't to hear.  i guess i should go check my mailbox.
lovelove, roark?  what do you think?  first pedestrian, now annabbel, are we next?

i think we are next.  i am really surprised that she was deferred.  annabel talked to him the day before i did, so i dread going home now.  i wish he really had asked me things to "make a stronger case."  now i just feel like i was given false hope by the phone call.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on January 20, 2006, 12:40:33 PM
 now i just feel like i was given false hope by the phone call.


 :'( I still think that if you got a call, you HAVE to be better off than those who didn't get one.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: chombi3 on January 20, 2006, 12:43:30 PM
these holds aren't doing much to raise toby's stock (ha..ha..ha...) here on LSD.
My hope is that his stock rises soon in your book, after experiencing his irresistible telephone charm.

thanks bass :)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: jmorrow on January 20, 2006, 12:43:34 PM
Yeah, either way, I think it's fair to say that most decisions are coming much later down the road and that, for now, there are only two options for most applicants: deny or deferral.

It means that those who get the deferral are, I think, no worse off than they were the day before. But it also means a lot more waiting.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: practiceboy02 on January 20, 2006, 01:00:00 PM
What I don't get is why are they sending deferrals to people who werent called - why say anything at all? It's not as though there is an early action option.

I think it might be a roundabout way of saying, "We'd like to get some more materials from you" - doesn't the letter mention sending in extra stuff?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: melicertes on January 20, 2006, 01:05:42 PM
Yeah, it did.  Updated transcipts, more LORs, statement about why Harvard/Cambridge...
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: corky on January 20, 2006, 01:14:10 PM
Yeah, it did.  Updated transcipts, more LORs, statement about why Harvard/Cambridge...

This sounds very much like a yield-protection measure to me. Do you care enough about Harvard to send in all these additional materials, or are your current acceptances enough that you don't feel like bothering?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: melicertes on January 20, 2006, 01:19:18 PM
So it is enough just to send something in, or do we have to kiss serious Harvard a$$ and convince them that they're #1?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on January 20, 2006, 01:24:16 PM
Annabel Lee got deferred. :-[ She wanted me to let you guys know.

Wow :(

Tell her sorry for me JG  :(
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: thescreed on January 20, 2006, 01:25:06 PM
I'm no expert, but I'd really recommend a "Why Harvard" that mentions specific programs and professors. Poke around on the web site, read the publications, examine the special programs, pick something you like and mention it.

"My main interest is Issue X, and I believe Harvard's program on X is the best in the nation. I particularly look foward to studying with Professor Y, whose recent publications in Journals A and B show why he is a leader in the field."

Something like that, but better.  That's what I would do. Be prepared to back it up if you get a call -- it will help if you really mean it and you have the resume or academic history to prove your interest.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: queencruella on January 20, 2006, 01:39:17 PM
I'm no expert, but I'd really recommend a "Why Harvard" that mentions specific programs and professors. Poke around on the web site, read the publications, examine the special programs, pick something you like and mention it.

"My main interest is Issue X, and I believe Harvard's program on X is the best in the nation. I particularly look foward to studying with Professor Y, whose recent publications in Journals A and B show why he is a leader in the field."

Something like that, but better.  That's what I would do. Be prepared to back it up if you get a call -- it will help if you really mean it and you have the resume or academic history to prove your interest.

Although this idea is good, I think it has the potential to be a suck-up snore-fest that bores the adcomms.  These people weren't born yesterday and can see someone sucking up from a mile away.  I think that part of the point is to get them to notice you enough to get you off the hold list, and you may not be able to do that by having a standard letter of this type.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: milkman83 on January 20, 2006, 01:42:00 PM
hey guys - got the same deferral letter too.  i'm just content that it wasn't a straight up rejection and i get the chance to send more stuff in.

chin up everyone, at least some of these deferrals have to get in!
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on January 20, 2006, 01:46:43 PM
hey guys - got the same deferral letter too.  i'm just content that it wasn't a straight up rejection and i get the chance to send more stuff in.

chin up everyone, at least some of these deferrals have to get in!

what are your numbers milkman?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: melicertes on January 20, 2006, 01:48:50 PM
Is there any way to pull of the why Harvard essay without boring adcomms?  What about a Why Harvard essay that is less academic in scope? To be perfectly honest, my reasons for wanting to go to Harvard are as much about Boston as they are about Harvard (and I'll probably end up living there after school regardless of where I go).  Is this an angle I should play at all?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: queencruella on January 20, 2006, 01:56:43 PM
Is there any way to pull of the why Harvard essay without boring adcomms?  What about a Why Harvard essay that is less academic in scope? To be perfectly honest, my reasons for wanting to go to Harvard are as much about Boston as they are about Harvard (and I'll probably end up living there after school regardless of where I go).  Is this an angle I should play at all?

I could be totally wrong, so don't take my word for it. I think being gutsy is probably the best approach because you need something that puts you ahead of all of the other holds who are also submitting the same Why Harvard? essays.  If you love Boston, that's certainly not something that Yale or Stanford are going to be able to offer, so why not mention it as a main reason? A lot of the academics you'll be able to get elsewhere, right?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Roark on January 20, 2006, 02:17:45 PM
To those who got holds: Are all of you in the 11/29 completes group? Maybe everyone who hasn't found out yet will be getting a hold, but the 12/6 completes next week, the 12/13 completes the week after?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lovelovelovenyc on January 20, 2006, 02:19:49 PM
To those who got holds: Are all of you in the 11/29 completes group? Maybe everyone who hasn't found out yet will be getting a hold, but the 12/6 completes next week, the 12/13 completes the week after?

one 12/8 complete got the deferral letter so far today
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: KT on January 20, 2006, 02:21:59 PM
So I don't have crazy numbers, so I doubt it's a yield protect thing... Should I bother sending in Why Harvard? or anything like that?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: B.K. on January 20, 2006, 02:47:01 PM
Got the deferral today too.

I was complete 11/29. 175/3.62.

 >:(

It's kinda all starting to make sense. I think they're gonna defer all the non Auto Admits and then use the "send in supplemental info" ploy as a tool to weed out the cream of the crop of us non AA/non Autoding Mid-Rangers. It's pretty smart, I must admit.

Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: bass on January 20, 2006, 02:51:16 PM
I'm sorry to hear about the deferral.

If H wants to hold hust for more materials or to yield-protect, that's stupid.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: wunder on January 20, 2006, 03:03:00 PM
It appears I am alive for another day with no letter in the mail...
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lovelovelovenyc on January 20, 2006, 03:05:21 PM
It appears I am alive for another day with no letter in the mail...

me too...saw a thin, cream envelope in my box today and my heart sank.  ended up being uva letter thankfully.  why must they put acceptances in rejection-sized envelopes??  i feel like frogger everytime i check my mail- nearly being taken out by a speeding vehicle.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Nemesis on January 20, 2006, 03:17:07 PM
me too...saw a thin, cream envelope in my box today and my heart sank.  ended up being uva letter thankfully.  why must they put acceptances in rejection-sized envelopes??  i feel like frogger everytime i check my mail- nearly being taken out by a speeding vehicle.


I'm glad to hear it. I hope my bad luck doesn't rub off on you or the rest of the guys. I'm still hoping you guys will get an acceptance call.  ;)

That miserable little envelope is the worst.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lovelovelovenyc on January 20, 2006, 03:20:15 PM
me too...saw a thin, cream envelope in my box today and my heart sank.  ended up being uva letter thankfully.  why must they put acceptances in rejection-sized envelopes??  i feel like frogger everytime i check my mail- nearly being taken out by a speeding vehicle.


I'm glad to hear it. I hope my bad luck doesn't rub off on you or the rest of the guys. I'm still hoping you guys will get an acceptance call.  ;)

That miserable little envelope is the worst.

Well you were complete a week before me, so I am not holding my breathe.  Still think you will get in eventually.  BTW, great addition to the sig line.  Perfectly reflects the TS call/non-admit feeling.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: caldonia on January 20, 2006, 07:28:30 PM
What I don't get is why are they sending deferrals to people who werent called - why say anything at all? It's not as though there is an early action option.

Maybe they're sending deferrals to ppl w/ & w/o the call b/c they know they've got everyone all worked up over whether they've gotten the call or not & what that means.  If one of the main points of the call is give the school a more personalized, caring touch then it makes sense for them to still contact people that might be admitted later on in the game, too, to keep everyone in the loop & feeling at least a little bit of love.  That way, ppl that get the letter (w/ & w/o call) know they can delay some of their good acceptance dreams/rejection nightmares for another few weeks at least.  This is probably a decent move on the office's part, if they're planning to delay a lot of their acceptances to later in the cycle than usual.  This way, they should decrease the amount of calls/emails checking on app status so they have more time to actually move thru apps.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: John Galt on January 20, 2006, 07:36:49 PM
What I don't get is why are they sending deferrals to people who werent called - why say anything at all? It's not as though there is an early action option.

Maybe they're sending deferrals to ppl w/ & w/o the call b/c they know they've got everyone all worked up over whether they've gotten the call or not & what that means.  If one of the main points of the call is give the school a more personalized, caring touch then it makes sense for them to still contact people that might be admitted later on in the game, too, to keep everyone in the loop & feeling at least a little bit of love.  That way, ppl that get the letter (w/ & w/o call) know they can delay some of their good acceptance dreams/rejection nightmares for another few weeks at least.  This is probably a decent move on the office's part, if they're planning to delay a lot of their acceptances to later in the cycle than usual.  This way, they should decrease the amount of calls/emails checking on app status so they have more time to actually move thru apps.

Always impressive, G. I buy this theory. Good to see you actually posting and not just lurking ;)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: caldonia on January 20, 2006, 08:01:07 PM

[/quote]

Always impressive, G. I buy this theory. Good to see you actually posting and not just lurking ;)
[/quote]

Yeah, I figured that contributing to the general speculation is a better way to spend my time than letting the stress of this process turn my neck & back into 1 huge knot of stress. :) ???
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: John Galt on January 20, 2006, 08:10:33 PM
You? Stressed?


naaaaahh...
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on January 20, 2006, 08:55:14 PM
You? Stressed?


naaaaahh...

I'm saying right. Who, P? Get stressed? What? Why, she would never do something like send a text message asking what's going on on the boards... :D
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: caldonia on January 20, 2006, 09:01:17 PM
You? Stressed?


naaaaahh...

I'm saying right. Who, P? Get stressed? What? Why, she would never do something like send a text message asking what's going on on the boards... :D

What's a girl to do when she's away from lsd & lsn alllllllllll day?! 

Additionally, JG- I think your current plush (& well-deserved) situation has got you singing some kind of enya calm tune- very diff than months ago when we could freak out together!  I like it tho, b/c if everyone was freaking out right now- the world would be chaos- it makes you seem all growd up!  ;)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: John Galt on January 20, 2006, 09:36:19 PM
You? Stressed?


naaaaahh...

I'm saying right. Who, P? Get stressed? What? Why, she would never do something like send a text message asking what's going on on the boards... :D

What's a girl to do when she's away from lsd & lsn alllllllllll day?! 

Additionally, JG- I think your current plush (& well-deserved) situation has got you singing some kind of enya calm tune- very diff than months ago when we could freak out together!  I like it tho, b/c if everyone was freaking out right now- the world would be chaos- it makes you seem all growd up!  ;)

How long you known me? Have you ever seen me lose my composure? Anyways, I'm limited in my options because of certain evaluations that didn't really speak so highly of me if ya know what I mean. Neways, I'm sure you don't have that problem. ;) Keep me updated though.

In other news...Lakers losing by 20....sigh....
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: TexasGuy on January 23, 2006, 11:29:38 PM
Well I am new to this site but decided to jump in after I joined this quite prestigious group in receiving my lovely hold letter today. I am a 3.65/175 so was not excessively surprised. Though looking over the deferrals this year compared to last year we seem to be a much stronger group.

Sending lors and a letter telling them about all my fascinating  ;) activities. I do think spending too much time on a "Why Harvard" essay is an error. I did a why harvard paragraph but I mean, come on, they know why you want to go to Harvard. Its Harvard. Trying to find some obscure program and emphasizing your interest in it will sound absurd. As if you are going to pass up Harvard for Northwestern because, gosh darn it, NU just has that excellent environmental recovery litigation program. I think you tell them more reasons why they should want you and then maybe explain why you know Harvard is the best. BSing them will probably sound obvious. My two cents as a LSD rookie.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: queencruella on January 24, 2006, 04:56:39 AM
Well I am new to this site but decided to jump in after I joined this quite prestigious group in receiving my lovely hold letter today. I am a 3.65/175 so was not excessively surprised. Though looking over the deferrals this year compared to last year we seem to be a much stronger group.

Sending lors and a letter telling them about all my fascinating  ;) activities. I do think spending too much time on a "Why Harvard" essay is an error. I did a why harvard paragraph but I mean, come on, they know why you want to go to Harvard. Its Harvard. Trying to find some obscure program and emphasizing your interest in it will sound absurd. As if you are going to pass up Harvard for Northwestern because, gosh darn it, NU just has that excellent environmental recovery litigation program. I think you tell them more reasons why they should want you and then maybe explain why you know Harvard is the best. BSing them will probably sound obvious. My two cents as a LSD rookie.

I agree- it's a stupid topic for such a prestigious school. Maybe for someone who was accepted to Stanford and is from California, the choice to come to Harvard may not be as obvious, but for the most part it's not like people are going to choose Michigan or Boalt over Harvard. I was a teacher for a while and just hated essays in which kids tried to suck up because it's so transparent. 
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: B.K. on January 24, 2006, 05:58:26 AM
Well I am new to this site but decided to jump in after I joined this quite prestigious group in receiving my lovely hold letter today. I am a 3.65/175 so was not excessively surprised. Though looking over the deferrals this year compared to last year we seem to be a much stronger group.

Sending lors and a letter telling them about all my fascinating  ;) activities. I do think spending too much time on a "Why Harvard" essay is an error. I did a why harvard paragraph but I mean, come on, they know why you want to go to Harvard. Its Harvard. Trying to find some obscure program and emphasizing your interest in it will sound absurd. As if you are going to pass up Harvard for Northwestern because, gosh darn it, NU just has that excellent environmental recovery litigation program. I think you tell them more reasons why they should want you and then maybe explain why you know Harvard is the best. BSing them will probably sound obvious. My two cents as a LSD rookie.

First of all, welcome.

Second, I must admit, my hold has a little less of a sting when I see people like you, my exact numbers twin, get it too.

Third, I totally agree with you and cruella. I think it would be more powerful to send in an extra LOR, or something more interesting than us droning on about what they already know: we want to go to Harvard.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: queencruella on January 24, 2006, 06:39:49 AM
Well I am new to this site but decided to jump in after I joined this quite prestigious group in receiving my lovely hold letter today. I am a 3.65/175 so was not excessively surprised. Though looking over the deferrals this year compared to last year we seem to be a much stronger group.

Sending lors and a letter telling them about all my fascinating  ;) activities. I do think spending too much time on a "Why Harvard" essay is an error. I did a why harvard paragraph but I mean, come on, they know why you want to go to Harvard. Its Harvard. Trying to find some obscure program and emphasizing your interest in it will sound absurd. As if you are going to pass up Harvard for Northwestern because, gosh darn it, NU just has that excellent environmental recovery litigation program. I think you tell them more reasons why they should want you and then maybe explain why you know Harvard is the best. BSing them will probably sound obvious. My two cents as a LSD rookie.

First of all, welcome.

Second, I must admit, my hold has a little less of a sting when I see people like you, my exact numbers twin, get it too.

Third, I totally agree with you and cruella. I think it would be more powerful to send in an extra LOR, or something more interesting than us droning on about what they already know: we want to go to Harvard.

Exactly. It's not like Harvard is a safety school for most people, so I don't get this obsession over doing heavy research of Harvard and trying to pick some obscure class with a specific professor and talk about how wonderful it would be for you. If someone has great stats and gets put on hold, it may be because Harvard doesn't want to accept a class that's full of one-trick academic wonders.  In that case it might be good to send in a letter from an employer or talk about an activity you did that meant a lot to you. 
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: thescreed on January 24, 2006, 07:12:13 AM
Exactly. It's not like Harvard is a safety school for most people, so I don't get this obsession over doing heavy research of Harvard and trying to pick some obscure class with a specific professor and talk about how wonderful it would be for you. If someone has great stats and gets put on hold, it may be because Harvard doesn't want to accept a class that's full of one-trick academic wonders.  In that case it might be good to send in a letter from an employer or talk about an activity you did that meant a lot to you. 

I disagree, unless (like many people, apparently) you're not actually interested in anything has to offer yet except the name.  I hate to think that Harvard assumes every applicant is a prestige whore.

Especially people with lots of work experience should be able to mention *something* about the school that attracts them except the name. It doesn't have to be obscure; in fact, if you have to hunt for something very obscure, perhaps Harvard isn't the best fit for you.  For me, it would be the opportunity to pursue a dual degree with KSG, not that I will ever even have the chance to make that case in a Why Harvard essay . . .
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: B.K. on January 24, 2006, 07:34:33 AM
[quote author=Lily link=topic=51740.msg1005484#msg1005484
Seconded.  Maybe there's some sort of correlation between prestige whore-ness and arrogance that TStock's trying to weed out?  (From what I can tell, B.K. and most of the people on the board aren't, but if they do followup studies like Columbia undergrad does...)
[/quote]

What are these follow-up studies?

Yeah, I mean I'd say about as far as they come from a prestige whore. In fact, for me getting into Harvard is by no means a guarantee that wouldn't choose a lower-ranked school, like NYU.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: The Dread Pirate Roberts on January 24, 2006, 07:40:57 AM
Ok, maybe I'm turning into a big prestige whore (ok, there's probably no maybe about it), but I don't think that you have to be all about a specific program/prof/joint degree/etc in order to want to go to Harvard.  An extra inch of foot-in-the-door for the job you want isn't nothing, nor is the bredth of offerings or the reputations of the Harvard teaching staff in general.  But any of that would sound more than a little lame in a "Why Harvard" essay.

If you are all about a program or prof or such, that's fab, and you should definitely write about it.  But the stuff that everybody appreciates may well not be worth restating, because they already know you probably care about it, and you want to be telling them something they don't already know.

And I'd agree, not everybody who gets into HLS goes there, even those of us who don't (won't) get into SLS or YLS.  There are things that HLS isn't the best at, or even the second best at.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: queencruella on January 24, 2006, 08:00:16 AM
Ok, maybe I'm turning into a big prestige whore (ok, there's probably no maybe about it), but I don't think that you have to be all about a specific program/prof/joint degree/etc in order to want to go to Harvard.  An extra inch of foot-in-the-door for the job you want isn't nothing, nor is the bredth of offerings or the reputations of the Harvard teaching staff in general.  But any of that would sound more than a little lame in a "Why Harvard" essay.

If you are all about a program or prof or such, that's fab, and you should definitely write about it.  But the stuff that everybody appreciates may well not be worth restating, because they already know you probably care about it, and you want to be telling them something they don't already know.

And I'd agree, not everybody who gets into HLS goes there, even those of us who don't (won't) get into SLS or YLS.  There are things that HLS isn't the best at, or even the second best at.

I think you have the gist of the problem with Why Harvard? essays- most of them are restating the obvious.  Harvard knows what programs it has so you don't need to tell them again. There are probably some cases of people getting held because it just looks obvious that Stanford or NYU is going to be the choice for them, in which case the essay is helpful.  In that case it might be better to explain why you aren't choosing Stanford/NYU instead of launching right into Why Harvard.  I just think if you need to search for reasons in order to write the essay, you shouldn't be writing it. 
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Grape Drink on January 24, 2006, 08:54:12 AM
Ok, maybe I'm turning into a big prestige whore (ok, there's probably no maybe about it), but I don't think that you have to be all about a specific program/prof/joint degree/etc in order to want to go to Harvard.  An extra inch of foot-in-the-door for the job you want isn't nothing, nor is the bredth of offerings or the reputations of the Harvard teaching staff in general.  But any of that would sound more than a little lame in a "Why Harvard" essay.

If you are all about a program or prof or such, that's fab, and you should definitely write about it.  But the stuff that everybody appreciates may well not be worth restating, because they already know you probably care about it, and you want to be telling them something they don't already know.

And I'd agree, not everybody who gets into HLS goes there, even those of us who don't (won't) get into SLS or YLS.  There are things that HLS isn't the best at, or even the second best at.

This is somewhat related but a little off topic... I read a fascinating study by these two economists who looked at the extent to which Ivy league grads do better because they went to a better school or whether they would have done better anyways and were admitted to these school because they already had the potential for success. When they looked at people who were aceepted to both mid-level universities and ivy schools they found that after like 10 years there was very little difference in terms of their success. It only made a significant difference for people from disadvataged socio-economic backgrounds.  It would be interesting to see if the same thing was the case with law schools.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: B.K. on January 24, 2006, 09:34:29 AM
Ok, maybe I'm turning into a big prestige whore (ok, there's probably no maybe about it), but I don't think that you have to be all about a specific program/prof/joint degree/etc in order to want to go to Harvard.  An extra inch of foot-in-the-door for the job you want isn't nothing, nor is the bredth of offerings or the reputations of the Harvard teaching staff in general.  But any of that would sound more than a little lame in a "Why Harvard" essay.

If you are all about a program or prof or such, that's fab, and you should definitely write about it.  But the stuff that everybody appreciates may well not be worth restating, because they already know you probably care about it, and you want to be telling them something they don't already know.

And I'd agree, not everybody who gets into HLS goes there, even those of us who don't (won't) get into SLS or YLS.  There are things that HLS isn't the best at, or even the second best at.

I think you have the gist of the problem with Why Harvard? essays- most of them are restating the obvious.  Harvard knows what programs it has so you don't need to tell them again. There are probably some cases of people getting held because it just looks obvious that Stanford or NYU is going to be the choice for them, in which case the essay is helpful.  In that case it might be better to explain why you aren't choosing Stanford/NYU instead of launching right into Why Harvard.  I just think if you need to search for reasons in order to write the essay, you shouldn't be writing it. 

Maybe this is a dummy question, but how would it be obvious to HLS that NYU or SLS is the choice for them? Just cuz the applican't numbers are slightly below HLS cutoff?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: queencruella on January 24, 2006, 09:39:28 AM
If you were born and raised in California, went to a California school for undergrad, and have been working in California since graduation, Stanford is going to seem like an obvious choice.  It would be the same for people who are already living in NYC because it might not be obvious why you would want to pick up and move to Cambridge if you are already established in NYC.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Grape Drink on January 24, 2006, 09:42:46 AM
If you were born and raised in California, went to a California school for undergrad, and have been working in California since graduation, Stanford is going to seem like an obvious choice.  It would be the same for people who are already living in NYC because it might not be obvious why you would want to pick up and move to Cambridge if you are already established in NYC.

The Stanford one makes sense but given that NYU is considered a slightly worst school and that Cambridge is so close to NYC I don't see how that would be.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: queencruella on January 24, 2006, 09:45:04 AM
Go talk to a New Yorker and you'll find out why.  ;)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: vrm083 on January 24, 2006, 09:51:18 AM
Cambridge is four hours by train from NYC.  Ugh.  I just looked it up yesterday.  At any rate though, I think the general principle behind the argument holds.  Try to look at your application materials from the persepctive of a Harvard admissions officer.  Where might they think you'd want to go?  Then tell them why it's really Harvard. 
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: queencruella on January 24, 2006, 09:58:25 AM
I think the issue for people in NYC is that they want a job in NYC, so there's really no point in going to Harvard just to come right back again to work in NYC.  In fact, a lot of people at other T14 schools ultimately end up going to NYC, so why not go there if that's where you're going to end up?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Grape Drink on January 24, 2006, 10:03:21 AM
Go talk to a New Yorker and you'll find out why.  ;)

I've actually been living in NYC for the past 3 years. I woudn't move for the world but I have plenty of friends who are actually eager to leave.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: *shell* on January 24, 2006, 12:34:35 PM
quick response to the original question...
Held at Harvard: What does this mean?

it means you're still in the game...congrats! 
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: melicertes on January 24, 2006, 12:52:18 PM
quick response to the original question...
Held at Harvard: What does this mean?

it means you're still in the game...congrats! 

Thanks.  I am definitely feeling better about the deferral now than I did when I first got it.  Toby appears to be using the hold much differently than in the past. I could be wrong, but it seems everyone who is not an auto-admit/auto-reject is getting the deferral.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: orlando jackson on January 24, 2006, 01:31:34 PM
ok, i'm finally deffered too.  now i need to write an amazing essay.  good luck everyone.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lovelovelovenyc on January 24, 2006, 01:34:01 PM
ok, i'm finally deffered too.  now i need to write an amazing essay.  good luck everyone.

Ah man, I'm sorry.  TStock, what's up?? 
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on January 24, 2006, 01:35:50 PM
ok, i'm finally deffered too.  now i need to write an amazing essay.  good luck everyone.

Welcome to our club!  :-\ :(
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: orlando jackson on January 24, 2006, 01:41:30 PM
ok, i'm finally deffered too.  now i need to write an amazing essay.  good luck everyone.

Ah man, I'm sorry.  TStock, what's up?? 

I'm actually fine with it.  I liked writing my personal statement, so this will be a good chance to write again.  Also, I take comfort in the fact that Mr. Stock was interested in my app and thought that it warranted a phone call, even if it's a close decision.  the frustrating part of it all is that the decision may take a long time now.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: B.K. on January 24, 2006, 01:42:13 PM
Welcome Orlando Jackson. It's not so easy being green :)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: John Galt on January 24, 2006, 01:44:25 PM
Welcome Orlando Jackson. It's not so easy being green :)

is that the alcohol talking BK?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: orlando jackson on January 24, 2006, 01:46:59 PM
Welcome Orlando Jackson. It's not so easy being green :)

huh? 
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: corky on January 24, 2006, 01:47:31 PM
quick response to the original question...
Held at Harvard: What does this mean?

it means you're still in the game...congrats! 

Thanks.  I am definitely feeling better about the deferral now than I did when I first got it.  Toby appears to be using the hold much differently than in the past. I could be wrong, but it seems everyone who is not an auto-admit/auto-reject is getting the deferral.

My current conspiracy theory is that he knows that students know when the acceptances/rejections come, so he may be sending out the letters so that people aren't desperately checking their mailboxes for a final decision.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: B.K. on January 24, 2006, 01:48:47 PM
Welcome Orlando Jackson. It's not so easy being green :)

huh?†

Sorry. Kermit the Frog just popped into my head as I was typing.  ;D
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: John Galt on January 24, 2006, 02:20:01 PM
Welcome Orlando Jackson. It's not so easy being green :)

huh? 

I thought she was drunk, dude.

Anyways, hate to hear about the deferral, but I like your attitude. I think people with phone calls will eventually get in. I think they just want to have a gut feeling that you're coming if admitted. I think this is an effort to increase their yeild really. I think that is what is killing Harvard vs yale.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: snikrep on January 24, 2006, 02:25:39 PM
Welcome Orlando Jackson. It's not so easy being green :)

huh? 

I thought she was drunk, dude.

Anyways, hate to hear about the deferral, but I like your attitude. I think people with phone calls will eventually get in. I think they just want to have a gut feeling that you're coming if admitted. I think this is an effort to increase their yeild really. I think that is what is killing Harvard vs yale.

But I'm guessing that a much higher percentage of the Harvard autoadmits are going to have the option of Yale (and probably end up heading that route) - most of the deferrals at Harvard will probably not even get the chance.

If he was really worried about yield, he would've deferred people like VeeLeigh and Galt who are the autoadmits to everywhere.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: orlando jackson on January 24, 2006, 02:26:44 PM
Welcome Orlando Jackson. It's not so easy being green :)

huh?†

I thought she was drunk, dude.

Anyways, hate to hear about the deferral, but I like your attitude. I think people with phone calls will eventually get in. I think they just want to have a gut feeling that you're coming if admitted. I think this is an effort to increase their yeild really. I think that is what is killing Harvard vs yale.

thanks man.  letting me in would certainly not be bad for harvard's yield.  I'm carrying my checkbook in my back pocket in case T. Stock calls my cell while I'm out and I need to get a deposit in the mail quickly.  
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: snikrep on January 24, 2006, 02:30:25 PM
Welcome Orlando Jackson. It's not so easy being green :)

huh? 

I thought she was drunk, dude.

Anyways, hate to hear about the deferral, but I like your attitude. I think people with phone calls will eventually get in. I think they just want to have a gut feeling that you're coming if admitted. I think this is an effort to increase their yeild really. I think that is what is killing Harvard vs yale.

thanks man.  letting me in would certainly not be bad for harvard's yield.  I'm carrying my checkbook in my back pocket in case T. Stock calls my cell while I'm out and I need to get a deposit in the mail quickly. 

LOL - put that in your essay, I think they'd like it ;).
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: vrm083 on January 24, 2006, 02:31:56 PM
Hmm...ok, this is completely just my opinion.  But I think that they'd be more willing to gamble on the "auto-admits" and avoid the risk of pissing them off.  Those are the people they really want to pull up their numbers, and while someone might hesitate between Harvard and Stanford or Yale acceptances, they'd be less likely to hesitate between Stanford and/or Yale acceptances and a Harvard deferral.  For people who are definitely within their range but not above it, it might be a better bet for them to defer, let them see how many get into Yale or Stanford and pull out, then accept everyone else to do the minimal damage to their yield.  I think T Stock is tricky.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: bass on January 24, 2006, 02:35:09 PM
I think that if it's about yield protection, it's crap.  I honestly don't see why they need any more info to make their decisions, and I'm almost frustrated enough to withdraw.

I said almost, though.  My gf would kill me.  a lot.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: bass on January 24, 2006, 02:39:47 PM
I assume you'll send a cover letter outlining your updates.  If one of those updates is your transcript, then you might explain, but keep it positive.  Something like, "I have included an updated transcript that shows the rigorous schedule that I took this past semester.  I wanted to add X double major or whatever, so my performance was below what I usually produce, but I am proud to have achieved a 3.45 while doing XYZ and stepping closer to double major Q."

I would just put it in one paragraph of the cover letter, and I wouldn't dwell on it.  But if there is something about those classes (that is positive) you can point out (e.g., awesome honors thesis experience), do it.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: vrm083 on January 24, 2006, 02:42:40 PM
I assume you'll send a cover letter outlining your updates.  If one of those updates is your transcript, then you might explain, but keep it positive.  Something like, "I have included an updated transcript that shows the rigorous schedule that I took this past semester.  I wanted to add X double major or whatever, so my performance was below what I usually produce, but I am proud to have achieved a 3.45 while doing XYZ and stepping closer to double major Q."

I would just put it in one paragraph of the cover letter, and I wouldn't dwell on it.  But if there is something about those classes (that is positive) you can point out (e.g., awesome honors thesis experience), do it.

Is such a cover letter something you would send if a decision has not been reached or only if you've been officially deferred?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: John Galt on January 24, 2006, 02:55:06 PM
I think that if it's about yield protection, it's crap.  I honestly don't see why they need any more info to make their decisions, and I'm almost frustrated enough to withdraw.

I said almost, though.  My gf would kill me.  a lot.

I bet if you tell them you got into Yale, but would rather go to Harvard, you'd get in pretty easily. Now, should you even have to pull out that stop to get in? Obviously not since both S and Y appreciated your app enough to admit you pretty quickly. You're one of those special cases where you just don't know what they were thinking.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: bass on January 24, 2006, 02:59:48 PM
vrm - if you haven't gotten a deferral, they haven't specifically asked for your grades.  And if they haven't asked for your grades (and they are bad), don't send them.  So yea, it applies only to the holds.

JG - As always, I appreciate it.  Unfortunately, I couldn't in good conscience tell them I'd turn down yale b/c my gf may not be accepted to her boston schools anyway.  And to be honest (T Stock, are you there?  If you are - earmuffs) I am leaning toward Yale in a big way anyway.  So it would be dishonest.

I do have lots of good stuff to send.  I am hesistant to send it right away, since any day I should hear whether my most recent manuscript was accepted in this law review.  They are doing a special feature, and I've talked to the editors, and they wanted the piece.  We'll see.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: bass on January 24, 2006, 07:36:15 PM
I assume you'll send a cover letter outlining your updates.  If one of those updates is your transcript, then you might explain, but keep it positive.  Something like, "I have included an updated transcript that shows the rigorous schedule that I took this past semester.  I wanted to add X double major or whatever, so my performance was below what I usually produce, but I am proud to have achieved a 3.45 while doing XYZ and stepping closer to double major Q."

I would just put it in one paragraph of the cover letter, and I wouldn't dwell on it.  But if there is something about those classes (that is positive) you can point out (e.g., awesome honors thesis experience), do it.

The class that really brought my GPA down was graded on a tough curve with few (if any) getting above a B+. Should I mention that?

Sure, just try to figure out a way not to highlight it as a negative. 
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: thescreed on January 24, 2006, 07:59:04 PM
The class that really brought my GPA down was graded on a tough curve with few (if any) getting above a B+. Should I mention that?

What kind of "curve" makes it impossible for anyone to get an A? Isn't that the exact opposite of a curve?  I always thought a curve guaranteed some percentage at the top of the class got an A, and if it's possible that nobody reaches the A level then it is a fixed grading scheme rather than a curved scheme.

IMHO, it's better to stay quiet about it than to try to claim that you have knowledge that everyone in the class did poorly. Even if they were inclined to believe such a claim from an applicant on its face, the quality of your evidence is necessarily poor, unless you get the prof to write the addendum.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: queencruella on January 24, 2006, 08:08:27 PM
The class that really brought my GPA down was graded on a tough curve with few (if any) getting above a B+. Should I mention that?

What kind of "curve" makes it impossible for anyone to get an A? Isn't that the exact opposite of a curve?  I always thought a curve guaranteed some percentage at the top of the class got an A, and if it's possible that nobody reaches the A level then it is a fixed grading scheme rather than a curved scheme.

IMHO, it's better to stay quiet about it than to try to claim that you have knowledge that everyone in the class did poorly. Even if they were inclined to believe such a claim from an applicant on its face, the quality of your evidence is necessarily poor, unless you get the prof to write the addendum.

The bell curve is just a standard statistical measure that usually puts the middle or expected grade anywhere in the C+ to B- range.  Depending on the size of the class, it's highly probable that only one or two people would get above a B+.  This very common in engineering programs.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Goodfella Aaron on January 24, 2006, 08:09:36 PM
The class that really brought my GPA down was graded on a tough curve with few (if any) getting above a B+. Should I mention that?

What kind of "curve" makes it impossible for anyone to get an A? Isn't that the exact opposite of a curve?  I always thought a curve guaranteed some percentage at the top of the class got an A, and if it's possible that nobody reaches the A level then it is a fixed grading scheme rather than a curved scheme.

IMHO, it's better to stay quiet about it than to try to claim that you have knowledge that everyone in the class did poorly. Even if they were inclined to believe such a claim from an applicant on its face, the quality of your evidence is necessarily poor, unless you get the prof to write the addendum.

It wasn't an actual curve, it's just that the professor graded so tough nobody from the class I talked to got higher than a B+ (I talked to about a quarter of the 40 person class). Plus the professor went to Yale Law so she's probably not all that amenable to helping me get into Harvard. And like I said earlier, I don't like making excuses but at the same time I don't want HLS to think I've been slacking. I busted my butt to get that B+.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: snikrep on January 24, 2006, 08:15:01 PM
So you talked to 10 people?  For all you know, the other 30 got A+'s and are currently having a massive orgy in Toby's living room as we speak.

Don't cry, you should've tried harder.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Goodfella Aaron on January 24, 2006, 08:19:07 PM
If there were a class at my school where 30 people got an A plus and I got a B plus I should be curled up in a ball crying. I should just commit hara-kiri right then and there.

Also, does anyone think visiting HLS would do any good? I might be going home for spring break (Connecticut: the new Cancun) and I could make a jaunt up to Cambridge.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: B.K. on January 25, 2006, 05:26:54 AM
Welcome Orlando Jackson. It's not so easy being green :)

I thought she was drunk, dude.


LOL...At 4pm on a tuesday??!! ;D
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: The Dread Pirate Roberts on January 25, 2006, 06:41:49 AM
Welcome Orlando Jackson. It's not so easy being green :)

I thought she was drunk, dude.

LOL...At 4pm on a tuesday??!! ;D

Hey, we don't know...
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: almuhajaba on January 27, 2006, 05:35:32 AM
Has anyone on hold sent in a supplemental essay yet? How long do you guys think it should be? My gut feeling was to limit it to a page, but I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: bass on January 27, 2006, 05:38:07 AM
Has anyone on hold sent in a supplemental essay yet? How long do you guys think it should be? My gut feeling was to limit it to a page, but I'm not sure.

I sent mine, and it was more than a page.  It was about a page and a half, double spaced, 5 grafs long.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Nemesis on January 27, 2006, 05:52:52 AM
Has anyone on hold sent in a supplemental essay yet? How long do you guys think it should be? My gut feeling was to limit it to a page, but I'm not sure.

I'm working on mine, but it seems like it'll be one and a half pages single spaced...
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: almuhajaba on January 27, 2006, 06:48:39 AM
are you guys trying to be really succinct and stick mainly to facts in your essays? Because so far, mine is sounding rather "personal statement-y" and I'm not sure if I should change gears...
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Nemesis on January 27, 2006, 07:42:40 AM
are you guys trying to be really succinct and stick mainly to facts in your essays? Because so far, mine is sounding rather "personal statement-y" and I'm not sure if I should change gears...

To be honest with you, I'm clueless. What makes matters worse is that my initial application was VERY thorough. I had a lot of extra information (diversity statement, etc.).

Basically, my supplemental includes what I'm up to this semester and why Harvard is my first choice. It's more like a letter than a personal statement.

I'm supposed to speak with the dean of admissions at Howard today and he's promised to give me some pointers on what I should do in light of a defferal. I'll be sure to post any useful info.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: almuhajaba on January 27, 2006, 09:00:32 AM
wow the howard dean of admissions is helping you get into harvard? that's very nice of him!!! good luck annabel :)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: practiceboy02 on January 27, 2006, 09:04:32 AM
wow the howard dean of admissions is helping you get into harvard? that's very nice of him!!! good luck annabel :)

Did anybody else just get a mental image of some guy calling up Toby Stock and screaming "YEEEEEEEEEEEHHAAAAAAA!!!!!" into the phone?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Nemesis on January 27, 2006, 09:08:35 AM
wow the howard dean of admissions is helping you get into harvard? that's very nice of him!!! good luck annabel :)

Trust me, I was just as surprised.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: queencruella on January 27, 2006, 09:12:33 AM
wow the howard dean of admissions is helping you get into harvard? that's very nice of him!!! good luck annabel :)

Trust me, I was just as surprised.

He probably figured you were a lost cause at this point anyway, what with all the T14 acceptances, and that he might as well give you some pointers! I'm eager to read what he has to say. Who knows, maybe he's hoping that you'll go to Harvard to come back to teach at Howard in the future?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: chombi3 on January 27, 2006, 09:18:20 AM
wow the howard dean of admissions is helping you get into harvard? that's very nice of him!!! good luck annabel :)

Did anybody else just get a mental image of some guy calling up Toby Stock and screaming "YEEEEEEEEEEEHHAAAAAAA!!!!!" into the phone?

lol yes, yes i did.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: The Dread Pirate Roberts on January 27, 2006, 10:09:19 AM
wow the howard dean of admissions is helping you get into harvard? that's very nice of him!!! good luck annabel :)

Did anybody else just get a mental image of some guy calling up Toby Stock and screaming "YEEEEEEEEEEEHHAAAAAAA!!!!!" into the phone?

No, but that made me giggle a lot.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Nemesis on January 27, 2006, 12:22:17 PM
OK, Dean McGahee is TOTALLY awesome!  ;D

He gave me some pointers re: Harvard Supplemental. I'm sure it's old news to you guys, but I promised I would post it.

He advised me to review my initial application and figure out what I didn't say the first time around. He told me to look for any "question marks" and/or "red flags" and then try to fill in the gaps. He said that a lot of applicants assume that adcomms can do that on their own and so they (the adcomm) misinterpret some things.

And then (the usual) he said I should say what about Harvard is appealing to me. He also mentioned that I might want to retake the LSAT (ummm...yeah...maybe not) and thought it was a good idea to visit.

With respect to length, he said there's no hard and fast rule but two pages double spaced should be fine.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: queencruella on January 27, 2006, 12:32:40 PM
Thanks for the recap, Annabel Lee. There's nothing new there, really, but it's good that he thinks you should try to focus on something new that you hadn't discussed before. 
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Nemesis on January 27, 2006, 12:39:18 PM
Thanks for the recap, Annabel Lee. There's nothing new there, really, but it's good that he thinks you should try to focus on something new that you hadn't discussed before. 

Agreed, not too much new stuff. But how cool is it chatting with a dean of admissions!?  ;D  What a guilty pleasure! He was picking my brain too. What an awesome and down-to-earth guy.

Hehe, "online discussion boards" came up and, guys, they DO read these things.  :D


I wonder who's reading right now...
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: TXcal on January 27, 2006, 02:35:30 PM
wow the howard dean of admissions is helping you get into harvard? that's very nice of him!!! good luck annabel :)

Did anybody else just get a mental image of some guy calling up Toby Stock and screaming "YEEEEEEEEEEEHHAAAAAAA!!!!!" into the phone?

Ha! 
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: nukelaw on January 27, 2006, 03:52:46 PM

Hehe, "online discussion boards" came up and, guys, they DO read these things.  :D

I wonder who's reading right now...

I'll give a fresh George Washington to the first person that gets me a picture of T-Stock checking out LSD at work.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on January 27, 2006, 08:24:43 PM
So some good news (maybe) for those of use deferred at HLS - according to LSN, a bunch of people from 12/8 complete have been deferred now as well, as we are moving along the line...also according to LSN 71 people have been deferred so far as opposed to just 27 last cycle
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: ghettobooty on January 27, 2006, 08:49:12 PM
Steve, thanks for the report.  I always appreciate those of you who comb through LSN to get us stats and profiles potentially pointing towards this and that.

Seems like TS really is using the hold as a hold and not a waitlist express track.  I think it's really unlikely that something like "increased LSN participation" or something this year could account for a near tripling (and that's just so far) of the Harvard holds from one year to the next.

That said, how did you find 27?  A lot of people who just say "rejected" or "waitlisted" were originally placed on hold.

Thanks,

GB
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on January 27, 2006, 08:55:29 PM
Steve, thanks for the report.  I always appreciate those of you who comb through LSN to get us stats and profiles potentially pointing towards this and that.

Seems like TS really is using the hold as a hold and not a waitlist express track.  I think it's really unlikely that something like "increased LSN participation" or something this year could account for a near tripling (and that's just so far) of the Harvard holds from one year to the next.

That said, how did you find 27?  A lot of people who just say "rejected" or "waitlisted" were originally placed on hold.

Thanks,

GB

For the sake of my sanity - I ignored those people :)

To get more precise figures, I'd have to comb through every LSN profile that applies to HLS last cycle...even with that taken into account there is no way that many people were originally on hold last cycle
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Yale College Inferno on January 27, 2006, 09:10:25 PM
I'll give a fresh George Washington to the first person that gets me a picture of T-Stock checking out LSD at work.

That's ridiculous. But for a Ben Franklin, I'll put my operatives on it.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: ghettobooty on January 27, 2006, 09:12:32 PM
GB temporarily lashing-out at Steve --> YOU MEAN YOU DIDN'T READ THROUGH ALL THE PROFILES, YOU USELESS PIECE OF CRAP?

Ok, well now your data makes me sad  :-\

Against my better judgment, I've just looked on LSN (which I almost never do).  Consider this:

Just looking at those waitlisted or waitlisted-rejected, there are 25 users from the group of candidates complete BEFORE the end of Novermber *alone*.  People who were complete that early and were later waitlisted were VERY likely put on hold originally (that's my understanding of how HLS was working under Currell), so you can add another 25 to your 27 and you are already in the 50s!  That's not even counting those who were held and then rejected without being on the waitlist.

Damn.

GB

EDIT: DUDE YOU ARE BLIND! You also didn't count the deferred-rejected and deferred-accepted, which is another 14, putting our total from last cycle in the mid-high 60s at least! (lol we can talk about "soft statistics" as well as soft factors, I know...)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on January 27, 2006, 09:16:19 PM
GB temporarily lashing-out at Steve --> YOU MEAN YOU DIDN'T READ THROUGH ALL THE PROFILES, YOU USELESS PIECE OF CRAP?

Ok, well now your data makes me sad  :-\

Against my better judgment, I've just looked on LSN (which I almost never do).  Consider this:

Just looking at those waitlisted or waitlisted-rejected, there are 25 users from the group of candidates complete BEFORE the end of Novermber *alone*.  People who were complete that early and were later waitlisted were VERY likely put on hold originally (that's my understanding of how HLS was working under Currell), so you can add another 25 to your 27 and you are already in the 50s!  That's not even counting those who were held and then rejected without being on the waitlist.

Damn.

GB

Well now you're making assumptions that all of those waitlisted people were held first... ::)

Besides, I think last year's holds were numerically much weaker than this year's holds...js...just hoping  :)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: practiceboy02 on January 28, 2006, 07:51:50 AM
Besides, I think last year's holds were numerically much weaker than this year's holds...js...just hoping  :)

I agree that, at least on the surface, there seem to be more holds this year, but I'm not sure that last year's holds were numerically weaker... the average stats for deferred applicants on LSN are 3.77 / 169.8 for this year and 3.79 / 170.8 for last year. 
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Yale College Inferno on February 06, 2006, 08:59:14 PM
how much supplemental info do you think is too much? i sent updated grades (4.0) and 2 additional lor's - is it overkill to add a "you're my first choice, let me count the ways i love thee, and here's why my grades dipped during my semester abroad" type of statement?

btw, sorry to barge in...

It's hard to "overkill" when everything you submit was specifically suggested by them in the hold letter, so I'd say go for it.

Incidentally, I noticed that the admitted student site actually has a whole section dedicated to "Why Harvard?" and I find it somewhat ironic that they give these answers to exactly the people who weren't asked to submit them.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: ghaleon on February 07, 2006, 11:58:14 AM
Sigh. Looks like Harvard is still deferring people, including 12/16 completes.

http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/display.php?user=Roark

I know Roark posts here, so sorry to post your LSN profile.  ;)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Roark on February 07, 2006, 12:03:18 PM
Sigh. Looks like Harvard is still deferring people, including 12/16 completes.

http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/display.php?user=Roark

I know Roark posts here, so sorry to post your LSN profile.  ;)

I'm a celebrity, let me in!
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on February 07, 2006, 12:09:27 PM
Sigh. Looks like Harvard is still deferring people, including 12/16 completes.

http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/display.php?user=Roark

I know Roark posts here, so sorry to post your LSN profile.  ;)

I'm a celebrity, let me in!

Roark, did you get the TStock call before deferral or am I wrong?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Roark on February 07, 2006, 12:18:15 PM
I had a mid-December call. Hmm, so that means there are currently these puzzling categories:

early-0000

Completes. But no call, no hold, no acceptance, no rejection. (chombi)

early-1000

Completes. Call. Then no hold, no acceptance, no rejection. (lovelove)

early-1100

Completes. Call but then a hold. No acceptance, but at least no rejection. (roark)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Yale College Inferno on February 07, 2006, 12:38:49 PM
Do you suspect that your call affected your decision?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: chombi3 on February 07, 2006, 12:51:37 PM
I had a mid-December call. Hmm, so that means there are currently these puzzling categories:

early-0000

Completes. But no call, no hold, no acceptance, no rejection. (chombi)

early-1000

Completes. Call. Then no hold, no acceptance, no rejection. (lovelove)

early-1100

Completes. Call but then a hold. No acceptance, but at least no rejection. (roark)

woo! i'm a celebrity too!
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lovelovelovenyc on February 07, 2006, 12:54:38 PM
I had a mid-December call. Hmm, so that means there are currently these puzzling categories:

early-0000

Completes. But no call, no hold, no acceptance, no rejection. (chombi)

early-1000

Completes. Call. Then no hold, no acceptance, no rejection. (lovelove)

early-1100

Completes. Call but then a hold. No acceptance, but at least no rejection. (roark)

woo! i'm a celebrity too!

Oooh, me too!  Toby, you hear that!
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: chombi3 on February 07, 2006, 01:09:12 PM
I had a mid-December call. Hmm, so that means there are currently these puzzling categories:

early-0000

Completes. But no call, no hold, no acceptance, no rejection. (chombi)

early-1000

Completes. Call. Then no hold, no acceptance, no rejection. (lovelove)

early-1100

Completes. Call but then a hold. No acceptance, but at least no rejection. (roark)

woo! i'm a celebrity too!

Oooh, me too!  Toby, you hear that!

hey lovelove, let's forward this to toby. 

on second thought, he seems to be occupying himself with rejections and deferrals at the moment.  let's wait till he's in an acceptance state of mind.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Yale College Inferno on February 07, 2006, 01:10:55 PM
The next round of acceptances is on Thursday.

-astrology charts
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: jmorrow on February 07, 2006, 01:11:52 PM
woo! i'm a celebrity too!

And I apparently need to raise my visibility. I'm a proud member of the Early-0000s, official motto: "Ignorance is bliss."
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lovelovelovenyc on February 07, 2006, 01:13:55 PM
The next round of acceptances is on Thursday.

-astrology charts

There was nada last week though, right?  Maybe he'll get in gear a little sooner. 
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Yale College Inferno on February 07, 2006, 01:14:33 PM
Wait, why is the number "0000" versus "1100" etc.? Where do the numbers come from?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Yale College Inferno on February 07, 2006, 01:15:42 PM
There was nada last week though, right?  Maybe he'll get in gear a little sooner. 

No, the positions of Pisces and Virgo indicate that it's a two-week cycle at this time of year, so it should be Thursday, and then another two weeks of silence.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: jmorrow on February 07, 2006, 01:22:57 PM
Wait, why is the number "0000" versus "1100" etc.? Where do the numbers come from?

Well, although Roark devised the convention, he seemed to have four categories in place - Call, Deferral, Acceptance, Rejection. And I think these are binary values representing each.

So, for example, we know of several Early-1010s and no Early-1001s. A year in Comp. Sci. may have destroyed my GPA, but it has not dampened my wits.

That's just my guess, though. Roark?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: chombi3 on February 07, 2006, 01:25:12 PM
Wait, why is the number "0000" versus "1100" etc.? Where do the numbers come from?

Well, although Roark devised the convention, he seemed to have four categories in place - Call, Deferral, Acceptance, Rejection. And I think these are binary values representing each.

So, for example, we know of several Early-1010s and no Early-1001s. A year in Comp. Sci. may have destroyed my GPA, but it has not dampened my wits.

That's just my guess, though. Roark?

i don't get it  :-[  binary numbers are so far beyond me.  do i not belong in law school?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: jmorrow on February 07, 2006, 01:30:47 PM
i don't get it  :-[  binary numbers are so far beyond me.  do i not belong in law school?

A binary digit is a "0" or a "1." Computers are, at heart, binary machines, and are often governed by a logic whereby "0" represents a value of "false" and "1" represents a value of "true."

So, by Roark's system, a 0000 represents a false for Call, Deferral, Acceptance, and Rejection, none of which we two have received. A 0100 represents a person who has not received a call, acceptance, or rejection, but who has received a deferral.

Subtext for Dean Stock: I am so well-rounded.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Roark on February 07, 2006, 01:41:14 PM
Hahah, what have I started? Jmorrow's got it down.

Okay, so we'll ditch the "early" part of the code. If you didn't go complete 12/16 or before, this does not apply to you yet.

There are four things Harvard can contact you with:

Toby call, hold, acceptance, rejection.

I got the call and hold, so I'm (1,1,0,0). And also (a dork).
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: The Dread Pirate Roberts on February 07, 2006, 03:47:33 PM
I got the call and hold, so I'm (1,1,0,0). And also (a dork).

180
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lovelovelovenyc on February 07, 2006, 04:23:53 PM
BTW, there are a few acceptances listed for today-- one of which was a deferral in mid-Jan first and apparently did not send anything extra
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Steve.jd on February 07, 2006, 04:26:07 PM
BTW, there are a few acceptances listed for today-- one of which was a deferral in mid-Jan first and apparently did not send anything extra

I see only one acceptance today:

http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/display.php?user=rcarlton

Can you link the ones you saw?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lovelovelovenyc on February 07, 2006, 04:30:44 PM
http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/display.php?user=ebell827

seems a little sketch, no real dates on a lot
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Yale College Inferno on February 07, 2006, 04:56:55 PM
There are four things Harvard can contact you with:

Toby call, hold, acceptance, rejection.

I got the call and hold, so I'm (1,1,0,0). And also (a dork).

Wow, that makes so much sense now...how did all these guys figure it out and I didn't? Was it explained in detail previously or did they crack the code?

I guess that makes me a Late-1010.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Roark on February 07, 2006, 05:49:16 PM
There are four things Harvard can contact you with:

Toby call, hold, acceptance, rejection.

I got the call and hold, so I'm (1,1,0,0). And also (a dork).

Wow, that makes so much sense now...how did all these guys figure it out and I didn't? Was it explained in detail previously or did they crack the code?

I guess that makes me a Late-1010.

I'd rather not understand a single post on LSD and be a 1010!
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Yale College Inferno on February 07, 2006, 06:06:32 PM
There are four things Harvard can contact you with:

Toby call, hold, acceptance, rejection.

I got the call and hold, so I'm (1,1,0,0). And also (a dork).

Wow, that makes so much sense now...how did all these guys figure it out and I didn't? Was it explained in detail previously or did they crack the code?

I guess that makes me a Late-1010.

I'd rather not understand a single post on LSD and be a 1010!

Hopefully you'll be a 1110. Why no safeties, though?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Roark on February 07, 2006, 06:17:40 PM
Hopefully you'll be a 1110. Why no safeties, though?

Hmm, how to answer this one without revealing too much? Maybe I can leave it at this: I'd really like to go to Harvard, I don't mind trying to reapply with safeties next cycle, and I've got great backup plans for the intervening year.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Yale College Inferno on February 07, 2006, 06:20:38 PM
I see, that makes sense. You're getting flamed for it on LSN though. (ps. kind of funny that your law school "numbers" profile doesn't really have numbers...)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Roark on February 07, 2006, 06:39:08 PM
I see, that makes sense. You're getting flamed for it on LSN though. (ps. kind of funny that your law school "numbers" profile doesn't really have numbers...)

Yeah, I know. Of course, we're assuming that LSN is supposed to be a tool for current applicants. I promise to post everything after I hear. Those early dire warnings about not being anonymous scarred me.

Thank goodness for flames, though. I wouldn't have even realized that I applied to no backups if "me" hadn't been so generous with his observations :D
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: bass on February 07, 2006, 07:59:29 PM
There are only 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: snikrep on February 07, 2006, 08:01:35 PM
There are only 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

lol, an oldie but a goodie
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: jeb240 on February 07, 2006, 08:25:46 PM
Why am I discovering this thread so late?

In any event, to catch up, I guess I'm 0100.

::sighs::
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: almuhajaba on February 07, 2006, 11:22:43 PM
There are only 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

 :D HILARIOUS
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: fatcat on February 08, 2006, 07:39:41 AM
There are only 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

that's the first time i ever heard it, i figured out the joke, and i found it funny...  and i feel like a nerd for this

it's okay, you're a nerd along with *me*.  :D :D Cuz I found it funny too. :-) go nerds!  ;)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: almuhajaba on February 08, 2006, 02:21:06 PM
There are only 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

that's the first time i ever heard it, i figured out the joke, and i found it funny...  and i feel like a nerd for this

it's okay, you're a nerd along with *me*.  :D :D Cuz I found it funny too. :-) go nerds!  ;)

yay nerds!!! I just saw an advertisement for a binary code watch...I'm totally gonna buy it! ;)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Goodfella Aaron on February 08, 2006, 02:34:57 PM
Does anyone think setting up a visit to Cambridge would help out at all?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: jmorrow on February 08, 2006, 02:37:44 PM
Does anyone think setting up a visit to Cambridge would help out at all?

See, when you say that attached your Goodfellas theme, it sounds terribly ominous.   
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Karl Pilkington on February 08, 2006, 02:49:11 PM
I wonder if this person is a "0010"
http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/display.php?user=ckc

They'd be the first, right?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Yale College Inferno on February 08, 2006, 05:20:00 PM
I wonder if this person is a "0010"
http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/display.php?user=ckc

They'd be the first, right?

Uh, I wonder if that guy is even real. I don't think Toby is making admit calls until tomorrow, and if he made calls today there should be more than 1 or 2 people on LSN reporting acceptances. Even given the limited sample size on LSN in the past there were always 5-10 acceptances per day of acceptance calls.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: vrm083 on February 08, 2006, 06:21:36 PM
Does anyone think setting up a visit to Cambridge would help out at all?

See, when you say that attached your Goodfellas theme, it sounds terribly ominous.   

So what you're saying is I shouldn't dangle Toby Stock over a lion den at the Boston Zoo? Hmmm. What if I just set up an interview or something?

I don't know if they'd let you do an official interview or not, but I think that if you can visit without inconveniencing yourself too much, it could only help your cause.  Good luck :)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Yale College Inferno on February 08, 2006, 06:50:58 PM
Does anyone think setting up a visit to Cambridge would help out at all?

Visit, and then write a supplemental essay or e-mail about how much you liked it during your visit.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: nukelaw on February 08, 2006, 07:57:35 PM
Just got the hold letter. If nothing else, I now have T-Stock's autograph.  ;D
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: chrisfield on February 11, 2006, 11:09:54 AM
Just got the hold letter. If nothing else, I now have T-Stock's autograph.  ;D

So I guess that a hold is the same as deffered?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: chombi3 on February 11, 2006, 12:12:35 PM
Just got the hold letter. If nothing else, I now have T-Stock's autograph.  ;D

So I guess that a hold is the same as deffered?

yep, same thing.  and it seems to mean more at harvard than at most other places (that is, it's not the equivalent to a waitlist, and you actually have a chance of being accepted later on)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: chrisfield on February 11, 2006, 12:44:22 PM
How about Illinois?  Do you know what it means there?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: B.K. on February 11, 2006, 12:44:56 PM
Wait, Chombi, you're out of HLS purgatory? :o
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: chombi3 on February 11, 2006, 12:50:05 PM
Wait, Chombi, you're out of HLS purgatory? :o

nonono, i just knew the answer to his question so i responded.  don't worry, you would hear about it on about 15 different threads if i got any news from HLS ;)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: B.K. on February 11, 2006, 12:54:47 PM
Wait, Chombi, you're out of HLS purgatory? :o

nonono, i just knew the answer to his question so i responded.  don't worry, you would hear about it on about 15 different threads if i got any news from HLS ;)


Oh, phewf. I was actually wondering to myself why there was no news of this on any other threads and thinking how nonchalant you seemed after the all the obsessing.  ;D
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Yale College Inferno on February 14, 2006, 02:52:10 PM
Toby's interpretation of held in today's blog entry is kind of surprising:

You can feel free to send in additional materials, especially if you want to update us on your academic or career progress.  For most people, though, additional information would have, at best, a negligible impact on our final decision.  If you did a good job of compiling your application, itís in our hands now.

http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/admissions/2006/02/14#a45
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: chombi3 on February 14, 2006, 03:35:54 PM
i dunno if you guys saw this, but there's been an ongoing discussion of today's post on this thread:

http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,54242.0.html
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: almuhajaba on February 22, 2006, 07:15:55 PM
hey...for all the people who were deferred by Harvard, did any of ya'll file your Need Access for Harvard yet? I've been looking, and I don't see a deadline for submitting the Need Access anywhere on their website... :-\
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Pancho on February 22, 2006, 07:29:50 PM
harvard doesn't want financial aid material until you're admitted.

Quote from: Harvard Amdissions and Financial Aid
You don't need to submit the FAFSA and/or Need Access before being admitted to HLS. But, if you do submit or have already submitted the FAFSA and/or Need Access, it is not a problem. As long as you indicated our school code (E00471) on the FAFSA and Harvard Law School on the Need Access, we will be able to post your data and mark the documents as "received" as soon as you have been admitted.

You can submit it before being admitted, but you don't need to do so.  Columbia, on the other hand, suggests you file as soon as possible regardless of admission status.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: almuhajaba on February 22, 2006, 07:36:41 PM
I don't know how I read that part of the website sixteen times and missed that point. I'm an idiot.

thanks Pancho!
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: jeb240 on February 22, 2006, 07:38:16 PM
I don't know how I read that part of the website sixteen times and missed that point. I'm an idiot.

thanks Pancho!

They must have recently changed it 'cause a month and a half ago I scoured the sites of all of my schools and found nothing on the Columbia site.  I assumed they took the position that Harvard and NYU do: not until you're in.  But I guess not.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Pancho on February 22, 2006, 08:15:22 PM
I don't know how I read that part of the website sixteen times and missed that point. I'm an idiot.

thanks Pancho!

They must have recently changed it 'cause a month and a half ago I scoured the sites of all of my schools and found nothing on the Columbia site.  I assumed they took the position that Harvard and NYU do: not until you're in.  But I guess not.

Yeah, I read the Columbia note about a month ago because I had not been admitted yet.  It's on their website as well.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: almuhajaba on February 23, 2006, 02:48:28 PM
Would any of ya'll be willing to read my supplemental Harvard essay? I know it's really late to be sending it out, but I've been really busy with my internship since getting the deferral last month....

Please PM me if you're willing to read it and critique it, and I'll PM it back to you

muchas gracias, ya'll! :)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: almuhajaba on February 23, 2006, 03:47:16 PM
Would any of ya'll be willing to read my supplemental Harvard essay? I know it's really late to be sending it out, but I've been really busy with my internship since getting the deferral last month....

Please PM me if you're willing to read it and critique it, and I'll PM it back to you

muchas gracias, ya'll! :)

i'm in the same situation. willing to trade?

is it a "why harvard" kind of supplemental? mine's an attempt at a diversity statement.

yeah it's a why harvard thing. I'd love to trade :) send it over!
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Yale College Inferno on February 23, 2006, 06:49:10 PM
Would any of ya'll be willing to read my supplemental Harvard essay? I know it's really late to be sending it out, but I've been really busy with my internship since getting the deferral last month....

Please PM me if you're willing to read it and critique it, and I'll PM it back to you

muchas gracias, ya'll! :)

I'll read it if you want.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: nukelaw on February 25, 2006, 04:32:54 PM
I couldn't disagree with this post more.

The LSAT/GPA combos of those in the first wave of admits have all be the auto-admits at or above the medians and 75% for Harvard. This jacks up the numbers early so that the later admits can have lower numbers and provide that diversity of which T-Stock speaks.

I think this is how all the schools are doing it actually: 1) auto-admits and rejects 2) hold/defer/waitlist the middle of the pool 3) figure out what the averages will look like for USNWR 4) decide how many "diversity" spots are open, and then round out the class with "interesting" people

If you're 175/3.8 and not in on the first round, that should be telling you something about how that school is probably looking at your app.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: fahrenheit on February 25, 2006, 05:38:50 PM
I am prospective law school applicant. I have a quick question about admissions. What is the difference between waitlist and being deferred? Sorry about the stupid question. Also, I just took the feb 06 lsat and scored a 169. My GPA is around 3.94 and I got to a top public school some decent soft factors (e.g. varisity sport, financial work experience, tutors, etc..). Is HYS pretty much out of reach for me? Thanks in advance! - F
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Yale College Inferno on February 25, 2006, 06:51:35 PM
I think playing a varsity sport also helps as a diversity factor. Not as much as being URM helps, but the same idea to a lesser extent.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Yale College Inferno on February 25, 2006, 06:56:20 PM
To add to my previous post, if you apply early and put together a good application package, you will get into at least 2 of CCN and have a reasonable shot at cracking 1 of HYS. 

I agree.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: nukelaw on February 25, 2006, 09:39:02 PM
I agree with the process you outlined. But the auto-admits are not going to give Harvard the needed LSAT/GPA numbers. I doubt the marketing work TStock has done, however amazing it may be, could sway many of the auto-admits to give up yale or full scholarship offers from other schools. The middle pool is what needed to jack up the numbers, and the middle  pool is enclosed in the hold pool.

Yes, there are people that have better than HLS's  average numbers and being put on hold. But very few of them, and I almost think some clerical error in HLS admission process placed them there. With such a large application pool, it is almost unavoidable for HLS to make mistakes from time to time.     

I said in my earlier post that "most of the hold pool would be released based on their numbers", and I didn't say "all". There certainly would be a few with strong soft factors but less than amazing numbers who get accepted. My point is that they are not going to be the majority of acceptance out of the hold pool. And I think one purpose of TStock's diversity statement is to attract those auto-admits who are leaning somewhere else. 
 

Let's be realistic here, the only place people would be leaning above Harvard are a) Yale; b) Stanford; or c) T-14 with substantial scholarship.

I'm not suggesting T-stock is going to admit someone with my numbers, but I think the folks at the 170-172 range with GPA in the 3.5-3.8 range will fill out the middle of the class. There will be some URM applicants at the fringes along with the lottery winners, which I hope to be one of. A better way to say this is that when you are hovering around the 25% at HLS or other top schools, numbers alone won't do it.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Yale College Inferno on February 25, 2006, 10:37:27 PM
I recommend visiting. You have an HLS-caliber LSAT score, even if your GPA is below their averages.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: fahrenheit on February 25, 2006, 10:52:06 PM
thanks for the great responses. so,  i gather lsat pretty much dictates whether you get into hls? That was my dream school - so you can imagine I was a little dissapointed with a 169. Do you guys think I should retake? I was a little under the weather during the exam (e.g. had a nasty cough the week before it) thanks again. - f
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Yale College Inferno on February 25, 2006, 11:05:02 PM
from your practice scores, 169 looks like it's near the top of your range..
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: FranciscoCabrera on February 26, 2006, 07:48:44 AM
I have a question... does it make any difference if someone is held (on Feb. 17) WITHOUT having received a phone call from TS? Does this mean chances are bleaker?



 ???
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: student on February 26, 2006, 08:06:56 AM
I agree with the process you outlined. But the auto-admits are not going to give Harvard the needed LSAT/GPA numbers. I doubt the marketing work TStock has done, however amazing it may be, could sway many of the auto-admits to give up yale or full scholarship offers from other schools. The middle pool is what needed to jack up the numbers, and the middle  pool is enclosed in the hold pool.

Yes, there are people that have better than HLS's  average numbers and being put on hold. But very few of them, and I almost think some clerical error in HLS admission process placed them there. With such a large application pool, it is almost unavoidable for HLS to make mistakes from time to time.     

I said in my earlier post that "most of the hold pool would be released based on their numbers", and I didn't say "all". There certainly would be a few with strong soft factors but less than amazing numbers who get accepted. My point is that they are not going to be the majority of acceptance out of the hold pool. And I think one purpose of TStock's diversity statement is to attract those auto-admits who are leaning somewhere else. 
 

Let's be realistic here, the only place people would be leaning above Harvard are a) Yale; b) Stanford; or c) T-14 with substantial scholarship.

I'm not suggesting T-stock is going to admit someone with my numbers, but I think the folks at the 170-172 range with GPA in the 3.5-3.8 range will fill out the middle of the class. There will be some URM applicants at the fringes along with the lottery winners, which I hope to be one of. A better way to say this is that when you are hovering around the 25% at HLS or other top schools, numbers alone won't do it.

I do hope you get in, nukelaw. We are almost number twins, well not quite, since my GPA is much lower than yours. I also think your experience is quite interesting. Yes, I agree that below 25% is no longer a numbers only game.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: fahrenheit on February 26, 2006, 09:09:41 AM
i neglected to post the last 10 or so tests - all were in the mid 170s. However, they were the older tests....I feel like i probably missed roughly the same amount e.g. 9-10 questions. Congrats on your admits you deserve them - all the undergrads I know at Yale I have nothing but respect for.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: corky on February 26, 2006, 10:53:23 AM
i neglected to post the last 10 or so tests - all were in the mid 170s. However, they were the older tests....I feel like i probably missed roughly the same amount e.g. 9-10 questions. Congrats on your admits you deserve them - all the undergrads I know at Yale I have nothing but respect for.

The newer scale is harder, so your score on the newest tests is much more indicative.  If you can score in the mid-170's consistently on the most recent tests, then I would recommend retaking. If not, then I would focus on getting rec's and writing a great PS.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: faultytowers on February 26, 2006, 11:59:51 AM
I would also be interested in predictions. I am having a really hard time figuring out how many spots are left in the class? It would seem from LSN that there are very few, but at the same time it looks like LSN is having significantly different trends this year. I certainly don't want to believe that the class is getting close to full, but...
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: NotMeXImFree on February 26, 2006, 12:23:30 PM
Knowing how on the ball LSD usually is, and how many different forums the "Can I/when will I get into Harvard" threads have been split up to, I probably already missed the discussion on this one...

http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/display.php?user=zelvica

Admit without an interview?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lovelovelovenyc on February 26, 2006, 12:26:02 PM
Is anyone willing to venture a guess about when TStock's going to move on to the defers? I may be off here, but it seems to me like he probably has about 1-2 weeks left of the first round of reviews before he backtracks over to us...



I think he has already started.  Annabel Lee was deferred in mid-Jan I believe and was in the last round of admits.  Also, I don't think the deferral admits will be in the same order as the deferrals were received.  I think it will be more random.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: chombi3 on February 26, 2006, 12:37:23 PM
On LSN, Annabel is the only one to have been called off the defer list, and she was called with a bunch of URMS, then he called a bunch of intls...leads me to think TStock was indeed "filling gaps".
I can't really think of a reason why HLS would still be sending out defers (read lovelove's 2/8 defer) unless they are really intending on going back through the zillion that they have held thus far.
Please reproof me if my logic is flawed.

koreanblaq was also (apparently) deferred before getting the call.  she never got the hold letter, but during the interview tstock seemed to imply that she should have and it was probably lost in the mail or something.  that batch of calls/admits (of which i was a member) was all URMs, as you mentioned--except for me. (i never got the hold)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: jeb240 on February 26, 2006, 12:37:29 PM
Aren't there two def --> accepteds on LSN?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Yale College Inferno on February 26, 2006, 02:09:50 PM
i neglected to post the last 10 or so tests - all were in the mid 170s. However, they were the older tests....I feel like i probably missed roughly the same amount e.g. 9-10 questions. Congrats on your admits you deserve them - all the undergrads I know at Yale I have nothing but respect for.

The newer scale is harder, so your score on the newest tests is much more indicative.  If you can score in the mid-170's consistently on the most recent tests, then I would recommend retaking. If not, then I would focus on getting rec's and writing a great PS.

I agree with this assessment. And thanks farenheit!!
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Yale College Inferno on February 26, 2006, 02:10:34 PM
Also - Thanks for the advice YaleCol, I really appreciate it. I know that you offered to read a couple of people's held letters before, and I was wondering if you'd want to read mine as well??

Sure, I can read it if you want.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Yale College Inferno on February 26, 2006, 02:17:04 PM
chombi you should change to a happier dog face now.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: chombi3 on February 26, 2006, 03:08:40 PM
chombi you should change to a happier dog face now.

hey, he IS happy! he's just a pug, so the cuteness overshadows it ;)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: daylighthasbroken on February 26, 2006, 04:18:26 PM
Does anyone know the name/creator of the thread that listed LSN acceptances for the past one or two cycles, and then had an update on how many acceptances had been given out on LSN for this cycle?  I'd love to add an update.

knoroozi i think
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: almuhajaba on February 27, 2006, 10:35:56 PM
I called up HLS today to ask them to hold my app till they receive my essay, and a *VERY* friendly man helped me. Just to let ya'll know, he said that they will not be looking at held files for at least another couple of weeks.

so, alas, the wait continues...
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: sea dream on February 27, 2006, 10:46:42 PM
whoever answered the phone at Harvard (a guy) back when i was having trouble over my transcript was really really nice and sympathetic too. Definitely the best experience out of all the schools i called that day. a minor detail, but it stuck in my head.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: orlando jackson on February 27, 2006, 11:57:21 PM
I called up HLS today to ask them to hold my app till they receive my essay, and a *VERY* friendly man helped me. Just to let ya'll know, he said that they will not be looking at held files for at least another couple of weeks.

so, alas, the wait continues...

thanks for posting this.  its good to get some valuable informatin mixed in with the baseless speculation we all love so much.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: jeb240 on February 28, 2006, 04:30:51 AM
I called up HLS today to ask them to hold my app till they receive my essay, and a *VERY* friendly man helped me. Just to let ya'll know, he said that they will not be looking at held files for at least another couple of weeks.

so, alas, the wait continues...

THIS IS THE KIND OF SHITE THAT'S PISSING ME OFF.

I think we can all assume Annabel Lee (sp?) was not lying.  She was deferred.  And she's been accepted.  Yes, she did get called, but that's not the point.  The point is that if they are not looking at held applicants for another couple of weeks, how are held applicants getting accepted?  And while I'm slinging shots, if they don't give admissions decisions over the phone, then why are they only calling people who get in to let them know they were in?  I'm going to Boston on Friday to visit a friend of mine (a Harvard 1L no less) and I plan on stopping by the admissions office and hopefully getting a few questions answered (I'll do my best to be diplomatic about it).
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: bass on February 28, 2006, 05:56:12 AM
I called up HLS today to ask them to hold my app till they receive my essay, and a *VERY* friendly man helped me. Just to let ya'll know, he said that they will not be looking at held files for at least another couple of weeks.

so, alas, the wait continues...

I don't get this.  It doesn't mesh with my understanding of the hold.  I thought holds meant: we need to evaluate you a bit more, we aren't ready.  Making the holds wait for 2-3 weeks puts us in mid to late march.  This is almost a waitlist.  I hope that this person was simply mistaken.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lovelovelovenyc on February 28, 2006, 06:25:27 AM
I called up HLS today to ask them to hold my app till they receive my essay, and a *VERY* friendly man helped me. Just to let ya'll know, he said that they will not be looking at held files for at least another couple of weeks.

so, alas, the wait continues...

I don't get this.  It doesn't mesh with my understanding of the hold.  I thought holds meant: we need to evaluate you a bit more, we aren't ready.  Making the holds wait for 2-3 weeks puts us in mid to late march.  This is almost a waitlist.  I hope that this person was simply mistaken.

Maybe they are just trying to keep people from calling every week.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Adrian19 on February 28, 2006, 06:26:04 AM
You know, this is getting annoying. I got my application in (as many of us did) in mid-October. And now we are coming upon March. and if Held applications won't be LOOKED at until "a few weeks" then there is no way we will KNOW where we're going until-- well, it could easily be May! It's getting frustrating. I really don't understand what the deal is. I know they have a ton of apps, etc., but there is someting lacking in this process...like, empathy. This is a big life decision, involving a geographic move to another city for most people! And they won't let people know until maybe both the admit weekends are over! It is so frustrating! I'm glad the dude on the phone was nice. But what he said is just evidence of an inconsiderate process...

OK, thanks for the venting opportunity. I don't want to be a whiner, but it's really getting ridiculous....
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: jeb240 on February 28, 2006, 06:36:20 AM
And I don't accept having lots of apps as any kind of excuse.

This is their job.  And we expect them to be good at it -- maybe that's expecting too much?  It's not like last year they only had 1000 applicants and so only had to reject about half the people and this year, for some crazy reason, they received 4 times as many applications.

I just don't get why thousands of colleges can all pretty much agree on two dates: April 1st to let us know, May 1st to let them know; but less than 200 ABA approved law schools can't get it together.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: almuhajaba on February 28, 2006, 06:53:50 AM
I called up HLS today to ask them to hold my app till they receive my essay, and a *VERY* friendly man helped me. Just to let ya'll know, he said that they will not be looking at held files for at least another couple of weeks.

so, alas, the wait continues...

THIS IS THE KIND OF SHITE THAT'S PISSING ME OFF.

I think we can all assume Annabel Lee (sp?) was not lying.  She was deferred.  And she's been accepted.  Yes, she did get called, but that's not the point.  The point is that if they are not looking at held applicants for another couple of weeks, how are held applicants getting accepted?  And while I'm slinging shots, if they don't give admissions decisions over the phone, then why are they only calling people who get in to let them know they were in?  I'm going to Boston on Friday to visit a friend of mine (a Harvard 1L no less) and I plan on stopping by the admissions office and hopefully getting a few questions answered (I'll do my best to be diplomatic about it).

Good point.

I have to wonder whether the admissions guy was looking at EB's complete date and thinking, "oh, we're not considering that batch for another few weeks" and it just came out "oh, we're not considering holds for another few weeks."  I make slipups like that at work all the time during busy periods if I'm distracted.

But that's just baseless speculation on my part. :-\


nope, he didn't ask for my info (name, social security) until the end of the call, when I asked him to put a note in my file saying that more stuff was coming and to hold off review till it comes...so that "couple of weeks" must be the standard answer for holdees.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Karl Pilkington on February 28, 2006, 06:55:13 AM
I've been held as well, and a small part of me would rather get a rejection in the next month than a waitlist (an acceptance would be my first choice, of course ;D). I just want to know where I'm moving, and I don't relish the idea of waiting around until July or August to find out.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: almuhajaba on February 28, 2006, 06:56:07 AM
I called up HLS today to ask them to hold my app till they receive my essay, and a *VERY* friendly man helped me. Just to let ya'll know, he said that they will not be looking at held files for at least another couple of weeks.

so, alas, the wait continues...

I don't get this.  It doesn't mesh with my understanding of the hold.  I thought holds meant: we need to evaluate you a bit more, we aren't ready.  Making the holds wait for 2-3 weeks puts us in mid to late march.  This is almost a waitlist.  I hope that this person was simply mistaken.

dont waitlists go on into July/August/first week of classes? Mid-march is much more preferable than that kind of hell...
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: almuhajaba on February 28, 2006, 06:58:45 AM
And I don't accept having lots of apps as any kind of excuse.

This is their job.  And we expect them to be good at it -- maybe that's expecting too much?  It's not like last year they only had 1000 applicants and so only had to reject about half the people and this year, for some crazy reason, they received 4 times as many applications.

I just don't get why thousands of colleges can all pretty much agree on two dates: April 1st to let us know, May 1st to let them know; but less than 200 ABA approved law schools can't get it together.


colleges have *way more* resources than even the biggest law schools. more resources=more staff=more efficient admissions process.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: sea dream on February 28, 2006, 07:01:47 AM
besides, colleges usually have earlier app deadlines and notify much later (at least the Ivy Leagues ones.. schools that do rolling admissions notified earlier). in some ways i think the law school app process is better, although being a late applicant i can't be completely thrilled about whatever advantages an earlier app might confer.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lovelovelovenyc on February 28, 2006, 07:03:59 AM
And they won't let people know until maybe both the admit weekends are over!

Such a good point.  I feel like they will have to let at leasr a good number of the hold ppl before the April date.  Regardless of being Harvard, expecting people to just attend your school without having the opportunity to attend an admit day/weekend is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: student on February 28, 2006, 08:01:26 AM
I called up HLS today to ask them to hold my app till they receive my essay, and a *VERY* friendly man helped me. Just to let ya'll know, he said that they will not be looking at held files for at least another couple of weeks.

so, alas, the wait continues...

Really???

TStock wrote in his Jan 27 blog, "We even understand that some people need to take the February LSAT(though we don't recommend that, as the majority of our admission offers are made by the time those scores come back)."

The Feb LSAT scores have already come back. Maybe the guy was telling Elaine the possibliity, instead of the reality, of getting her file reviewed in several weeks or so.

In early Febuary, I send in a supplemental essay, along with a change of address request--I do need to change address, but I also wanted to see when/if Harvard is going to process my additional essay. I send by overnight and verified the letter was received the next day. Called again last week, and alas, my address was not changed. The gentleman asked me to resend it. When pressed further with the above quoted blog, he admitted that the worst scenario did exist: they may review my file before they put my new essay on file.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: John Galt on February 28, 2006, 08:15:33 AM
I called up HLS today to ask them to hold my app till they receive my essay, and a *VERY* friendly man helped me. Just to let ya'll know, he said that they will not be looking at held files for at least another couple of weeks.

so, alas, the wait continues...

Really???

TStock wrote in his Jan 27 blog, "We even understand that some people need to take the February LSAT(though we don't recommend that, as the majority of our admission offers are made by the time those scores come back)."

The Feb LSAT scores have already come back. Maybe the guy was telling Elaine the possibliity, instead of the reality, of getting her file reviewed in several weeks or so.

In early Febuary, I send in a supplemental essay, along with a change of address request--I do need to change address, but I also wanted to see when/if Harvard is going to process my additional essay. I send by overnight and verified the letter was received the next day. Called again last week, and alas, my address was not changed. The gentleman asked me to resend it. When pressed further with the above quoted blog, he admitted that the worst scenario did exist: they may review my file before they put my new essay on file.


Well I'm sure they've admitted roughly around 450 people, so his blog is probably truthful. Since Harvard class is so big though, one need not despair once the majority of admits has been made because that means that there could be hundreds of slots still left.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: student on February 28, 2006, 08:20:30 AM
I called up HLS today to ask them to hold my app till they receive my essay, and a *VERY* friendly man helped me. Just to let ya'll know, he said that they will not be looking at held files for at least another couple of weeks.

so, alas, the wait continues...

Really???

TStock wrote in his Jan 27 blog, "We even understand that some people need to take the February LSAT(though we don't recommend that, as the majority of our admission offers are made by the time those scores come back)."

The Feb LSAT scores have already come back. Maybe the guy was telling Elaine the possibliity, instead of the reality, of getting her file reviewed in several weeks or so.

In early Febuary, I send in a supplemental essay, along with a change of address request--I do need to change address, but I also wanted to see when/if Harvard is going to process my additional essay. I send by overnight and verified the letter was received the next day. Called again last week, and alas, my address was not changed. The gentleman asked me to resend it. When pressed further with the above quoted blog, he admitted that the worst scenario did exist: they may review my file before they put my new essay on file.


Well I'm sure they've admitted roughly around 450 people, so his blog is probably truthful. Since Harvard class is so big though, one need not despair once the majority of admits has been made because that means that there could be hundreds of slots still left.

I hope you are right, Mr Galt. If there are indeed hundreds of spots left and the held files -already over one hundred on LSN-are not going to be reviewed in several weeks from now, would he still discourage people from taking the Feb LSAT?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: sea dream on February 28, 2006, 08:21:55 AM
even if they've admitted 450, Harvard's class is around 550, i think, and their yield is something like 60%. (these numbers could be off, i'm just pulling them out of memory from random posts on LSD/xoxo) so that means there are still hundreds of seats left to fill.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lovelovelovenyc on February 28, 2006, 08:28:58 AM
even if they've admitted 450, Harvard's class is around 550, i think, and their yield is something like 60%. (these numbers could be off, i'm just pulling them out of memory from random posts on LSD/xoxo) so that means there are still hundreds of seats left to fill.

I think that harvard admits approximately 800 people.

EDIT: http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/body.php
From the H website:

Class for 9/2005-

Apps: 7,046
Offers: 811
Enrolled: 557

Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: John Galt on February 28, 2006, 08:32:46 AM
And I don't accept having lots of apps as any kind of excuse.

This is their job.  And we expect them to be good at it -- maybe that's expecting too much?  It's not like last year they only had 1000 applicants and so only had to reject about half the people and this year, for some crazy reason, they received 4 times as many applications.

I just don't get why thousands of colleges can all pretty much agree on two dates: April 1st to let us know, May 1st to let them know; but less than 200 ABA approved law schools can't get it together.

Most universities have a formula for admissions decisions. Most law school admissions is individualistic. Moreover, every high school kid really just doesn't have anything to do in their lives except wait to go to college. Same thing with most pre-med students. Law student wannabees are a dynamic group with many options. It probably good to give your most desirable candidates an answer before April so that they'll have time to plan. I think rolling admissions is probably the best way since it gives enough time to look at each application while giving people enough time to decide thoroughly what they want to do when the options are presented to them
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: John Galt on February 28, 2006, 08:39:24 AM
I called up HLS today to ask them to hold my app till they receive my essay, and a *VERY* friendly man helped me. Just to let ya'll know, he said that they will not be looking at held files for at least another couple of weeks.

so, alas, the wait continues...

Really???

TStock wrote in his Jan 27 blog, "We even understand that some people need to take the February LSAT(though we don't recommend that, as the majority of our admission offers are made by the time those scores come back)."

The Feb LSAT scores have already come back. Maybe the guy was telling Elaine the possibliity, instead of the reality, of getting her file reviewed in several weeks or so.

In early Febuary, I send in a supplemental essay, along with a change of address request--I do need to change address, but I also wanted to see when/if Harvard is going to process my additional essay. I send by overnight and verified the letter was received the next day. Called again last week, and alas, my address was not changed. The gentleman asked me to resend it. When pressed further with the above quoted blog, he admitted that the worst scenario did exist: they may review my file before they put my new essay on file.


Well I'm sure they've admitted roughly around 450 people, so his blog is probably truthful. Since Harvard class is so big though, one need not despair once the majority of admits has been made because that means that there could be hundreds of slots still left.

I hope you are right, Mr Galt. If there are indeed hundreds of spots left and the held files -already over one hundred on LSN-are not going to be reviewed in several weeks from now, would he still discourage people from taking the Feb LSAT?

I think he was talking about people who have not submitted an application as of yet. Held people obviously could have taken the LSAT with minor repercussions assuming they did as well or better on the exam. People who take the february exam won't have their files completed until the scores are processed by HLS, which could be well into March. Also at this point, the bar has been set pretty high - one you're late, two you seem unorganized - so unless you have stellar creditials (and not the normal stellar creditials that nearly all H apps display) then it is nearly impossible in my estimate to receive an offer of admission. Combine this with the fact that you're not going to have the benefit of a hold to reevaluate your strategy and send in supplemental info means you have little room for error. So while its not impossible to get admitted with a feb. lsat score, it is unlikley. That's enough for a strong discouragement.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: jmorrow on February 28, 2006, 08:50:05 AM
Moreover, every high school kid really just doesn't have anything to do in their lives except wait to go to college.

This is very true. Had I been waitlisted by a top choice school for undergrad, they could have told me on August 15th, and I'd have packed up and gone, pleased with the whole thing.

These days I'm married, and to a teacher who needs to know where she'll be working well in advance of the academic year. I don't have the luxury of picking up on a moment's notice and changing location. (I wouldn't, for example, be able to take a spot on HLS's waitlist.)

It makes the whole deferral situation quite tense.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: jmorrow on February 28, 2006, 11:56:01 AM
So here's where my baseless speculation has taken me.

This sounds approximately right with a couple of addenda.

(1) It looks as if some deferred folks, specifically deferred URMs are being reevaluated and accepted right now. It seems like this applies (for the moment) almost exclusively to folks with URM diversity, though.

(2) Given that the Dean is new and the phone calling thing is new, it's possible that deferral this year doesn't mean what it did last year. Possibly.

(Anyone with information to round this out, supplement it, or contradict it, please do.)

That said, I do feel a bit of the ol' despair creeping in.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: jeb240 on February 28, 2006, 12:01:48 PM
So here's where my baseless speculation has taken me.

This sounds approximately right with a couple of addenda.

(1) It looks as if some deferred folks, specifically deferred URMs are being reevaluated and accepted right now. It seems like this applies (for the moment) almost exclusively to folks with URM diversity, though.

(2) Given that the Dean is new and the phone calling thing is new, it's possible that deferral this year doesn't mean what it did last year. Possibly.

(Anyone with information to round this out, supplement it, or contradict it, please do.)

That said, I do feel a bit of the ol' despair creeping in.

The most recent def --> accept did not receive a call before getting her hold letter -- this gives me hope.  But she does have vastly better scores than I do, so not much hope.

Here's the thing, even if Toby were to want to accept and call me, I don't think they realize that they have my number (I applied from Paris and didn't have a number that would fit on the LSAC form and since I've returned I've sent them updated info that has my phone number on it, but nothing saying HEY, LOOK AT MY NEW DOMESTIC DIGITS! so they may not realize they have the ability to call me).  I feel like I should call them and be like, "I thought I'd let you know this information... just in case."

Maybe I'll tell them when I pop by on Friday.

EDIT: Nevermind -- I keep forgetting that He'll email before He calls.

*Capitalization was intentional.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Adrian19 on February 28, 2006, 12:09:05 PM
Also of concern is if you look at both the defers & the waitlists. If you count both defers and waitlists, there were 124 on LSN last year. Out of those 124, 67 were waitlisted (ouch), so the majority of us are going to end up there. LSN only lists 11 people who were accepted off the defer or the waitlist...maybe i'm just upset like everyone else right now, but i think there are far fewer spots than we think there are.

If anyone has evidence to disprove this, please tell me.. i can feel my hope fading.
deming...

I think it is general consensus that Toby is doing things differently, and that there are many, many more deferred people than in past years. I think LSN from last year is not a good indicator of what Deferred  means this year. And that's not just wishful thinking on my part, I think it really is true.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: ghaleon on February 28, 2006, 12:20:30 PM

I think it is general consensus that Toby is doing things differently, and that there are many, many more deferred people than in past years. I think LSN from last year is not a good indicator of what Deferred  means this year. And that's not just wishful thinking on my part, I think it really is true.

I was clinging to that same idea...until I noticed that now, by the end of Feb, there are just as many defers this year as there were last year....

I don't understand. I only count about 40 deferrals from last year. There are already three times as many this year with more likely to arrive. A waitlist is not the same as a deferral.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Adrian19 on February 28, 2006, 12:33:07 PM
I imagine that most people who were waitlisted were first deferred. Makes the numbers a bit deceiving....

That's the key -- that's not true. in the past Harvard has not done this many deferrals. waitlisted people were just waitlisted. it's a whole new ballgame this year.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: ghaleon on February 28, 2006, 12:38:39 PM
I imagine that most people who were waitlisted were first deferred. Makes the numbers a bit deceiving....

That's the key -- that's not true. in the past Harvard has not done this many deferrals. waitlisted people were just waitlisted. it's a whole new ballgame this year.

Now I'm not sure anymore. LSN doesn't have a "def, waitlisted" status. So it's possible that people were first put on hold, then waitlisted. There's no way for us to know because people would have replaced "deferred" with "waitlisted" on their LSN account. I did find one person who definitely got held, then waitlisted, then accepted on July 1 last year.

http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/display.php?user=whatmeworry

The thought of waiting four more months for an acceptance that will likely never come makes me depressed.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: jeb240 on February 28, 2006, 12:54:14 PM
I would consider a "hold" to be a waitlist.  Now is the time to start seriously considering those schools that have already accepted you.

At least warn us to get out the umbrellas before you rain on our parade.  ;)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: jmorrow on February 28, 2006, 01:07:23 PM
Well, since this thread could use it, I proudly present:

Successful Applications that Took Forever
(Assuming Proper User Information)

http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/display.php?user=newy
http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/display.php?user=RachelleDion
http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/display.php?user=gypsy
http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/display.php?user=bandgirlz
http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/display.php?user=ringgo
http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/display.php?user=EBWhite
http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/display.php?user=MichaelA
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lovelovelovenyc on February 28, 2006, 01:08:53 PM
Well, since this thread could use it, I proudly present:

Successful Applications that Took Forever
(Assuming Proper User Information)

http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/display.php?user=newy
http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/display.php?user=RachelleDion
http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/display.php?user=gypsy
http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/display.php?user=bandgirlz
http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/display.php?user=ringgo
http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/display.php?user=EBWhite
http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/display.php?user=MichaelA

bravo...and much appreciation
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: John Galt on March 01, 2006, 07:43:02 PM
And I don't accept having lots of apps as any kind of excuse.

This is their job.  And we expect them to be good at it -- maybe that's expecting too much?  It's not like last year they only had 1000 applicants and so only had to reject about half the people and this year, for some crazy reason, they received 4 times as many applications.

I just don't get why thousands of colleges can all pretty much agree on two dates: April 1st to let us know, May 1st to let them know; but less than 200 ABA approved law schools can't get it together.

Most universities have a formula for admissions decisions. Most law school admissions is individualistic.

If most law school admissions policies were truly individualistic, the graphs on LSN would be a mix of red and green -- the bright lines simply wouldn't exist.

Quote
Moreover, every high school kid really just doesn't have anything to do in their lives except wait to go to college. Same thing with most pre-med students.

High school students, yes.  Pre-med students, no.  From what I can tell being in one pre-med intensive major, most pre-med students these days work before going to med school in a wide array of interesting jobs, if only because med school admissions isn't a numbers game like law school -- extra currics and work experience counts much more heavily.

Quote
Law student wannabees are a dynamic group with many options. It probably good to give your most desirable candidates an answer before April so that they'll have time to plan. I think rolling admissions is probably the best way since it gives enough time to look at each application

You can't look and thoroughly consider each application if they happen to come in at the same time? ???


"If most law school admissions policies were truly individualistic, the graphs on LSN would be a mix of red and green -- the bright lines simply wouldn't exist."

What rationale do you have for this? Admissions officials freely tell us that numbers are the most important aspect of their application process. Furthermore, just because someone has done something spectacular doesn't mean that there isn't another applicant who has done something similar with higher numbers. All things considered, you have two global AIDS activist that have done amazing work. You can only pick one to fill the class, do you pick the one with a 174 or the one with a 157? At the top schools they have so many amazing applicants that they can usually fill needs without sacrificing their numbers. That doesn't mean that the truly exceptional don't slip through (via recs, ps, truly amazing WE, etc) - they do and you see that in every class.

"High school students, yes.  Pre-med students, no.  From what I can tell being in one pre-med intensive major, most pre-med students these days work before going to med school in a wide array of interesting jobs, if only because med school admissions isn't a numbers game like law school -- extra currics and work experience counts much more heavily."

Ok - if what you say is true, Med school sounds much like law school admissions save the interview. For example, numbers alone won't get you into the elite law schools - that is why it is increasingly difficult for college seniors to be admitted to top law schools. One must have numbers AND the soft stuff for law school. But you're deluding yourself if you don't think med school admissions is primarily based on the numbers. I'll concede the point about pre-meds working prior to med school since I don't have enough information to refute, but my experience is that pre-meds, at least at my school, apply as seniors.

"You can't look and thoroughly consider each application if they happen to come in at the same time???"

Not if the deadline is in February and you have 7,000 apps to go through by April.

Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: nukelaw on March 02, 2006, 10:18:47 AM
I forget who this agrees/disagrees with, but FWIW...

Law school is overwhelmingly a quantitative process. The fact is, universities make money on law schools and lose them on medical schools. To keep the maximum profit margin, they limit the size of admissions offices/committees that can only afford to operate in a quantitative environment. In other words, when you get 7000 applications, the people seem to blur. You only get 10 minutes to read a file, and the first thing you would check are the numbers. If the numbers fall into one end or the other of that school's bellcurve, it's an autoadmit/reject and might get less than ten minutes. The majority of apps probably fall in the middle and have to get milled around the adcomms until someone makes the executive decision on borderline cases - "I'm willing to take this 172/3.5 above all others because of xyz." That executive decision might not come until April/May/June if a school is hoping/expecting high yield rates, or if it is early enough in the process for last-minute applications from Feb. LSAT takers to trickle in.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: bass on March 03, 2006, 05:18:40 PM
sorry for double posting (triple?) but it's relevant since I got held... I got the email about the harvard call!!
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: bass on March 03, 2006, 05:23:03 PM
Yay! Don't be crazy and pick it over Yale, though!  :)

It's very likely.  My girlfriend just got a full ride to study ethnomusicology at tufts.  She applied nowhere in CT (didn't think I'd get in).
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: sea dream on March 03, 2006, 05:27:17 PM
i'm sure you'll make the right decision for you and your girlfriend, but she's lucky to have someone that would make that kind of choice for her. make sure you are thinking of all the things you could do though, like visiting years back and forth, and etc.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: bass on March 03, 2006, 05:31:26 PM
i'm sure you'll make the right decision for you and your girlfriend, but she's lucky to have someone that would make that kind of choice for her. make sure you are thinking of all the things you could do though, like visiting years back and forth, and etc.

it's not like he'd be going to Cooley.  It's Harvard.  Not exactly a huge sacrifice  ;)

That's what I was saying on XO.  I'll be sure to weigh all the options, though.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: sea dream on March 03, 2006, 05:33:07 PM
i'm sure you'll make the right decision for you and your girlfriend, but she's lucky to have someone that would make that kind of choice for her. make sure you are thinking of all the things you could do though, like visiting years back and forth, and etc.

it's not like he'd be going to Cooley.  It's Harvard.  Not exactly a huge sacrifice  ;)

it's not a huge sacrifice school rep wise, but it is somewhat of a sacrifice for someone like bass who really seriously wants to go into academia and has other reasons (class size, professor interaction) to seriously prefer Yale.. besides, Yale admissions is like a gift from god. Very few people are blessed with it. ;)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: fatcat on March 03, 2006, 05:38:13 PM
i'm sure you'll make the right decision for you and your girlfriend, but she's lucky to have someone that would make that kind of choice for her. make sure you are thinking of all the things you could do though, like visiting years back and forth, and etc.

it's not like he'd be going to Cooley.  It's Harvard.  Not exactly a huge sacrifice  ;)

That's what I was saying on XO.  I'll be sure to weigh all the options, though.

super congrats bass!  :D :D
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: bass on March 03, 2006, 05:40:41 PM
i'm sure you'll make the right decision for you and your girlfriend, but she's lucky to have someone that would make that kind of choice for her. make sure you are thinking of all the things you could do though, like visiting years back and forth, and etc.

it's not like he'd be going to Cooley.  It's Harvard.  Not exactly a huge sacrifice  ;)

That's what I was saying on XO.  I'll be sure to weigh all the options, though.

super congrats bass!  :D :D

Thanks fatcat! It was worth the wait.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: almuhajaba on March 03, 2006, 10:24:35 PM
yayyyy congrats Bass!!!!! Best of luck on that phone interview!!!
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: bass on March 03, 2006, 10:25:49 PM
yayyyy congrats Bass!!!!! Best of luck on that phone interview!!!

Thanks!
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: almuhajaba on March 03, 2006, 10:28:26 PM
so did you set up like an appointment or something for the call? Or does he just randomly call you and try to catch ya on your feet?  ;)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: bass on March 03, 2006, 10:31:42 PM
Yay! Don't be crazy and pick it over Yale, though!  :)

On behalf of everyone rejected at Yale and deferred at Harvard I concur. Besides, CT is your home. Are you too good for you home?
[end Happy Gilmore voice]

Serious though, mad props for getting in.

Thanks for the advice.  I'm not in at HLS, yet. 
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: bass on March 03, 2006, 10:32:59 PM
so did you set up like an appointment or something for the call? Or does he just randomly call you and try to catch ya on your feet?  ;)

Gave him some times, haven't gotten the call yet.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: almuhajaba on March 03, 2006, 10:35:13 PM
 ;D ;D ;D ;D yaaaaaaaay, I'm sure you'll do really well on that interview!!!

 I'm really happy for you, I know how much you wanted to go to HLS :)

btw, did you end up ever mentioning your YLS admit anywhere in your essay at all???
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: chombi3 on March 03, 2006, 11:54:09 PM
congrats bass! good luck with the interview.

and al (aka elaine)...cute addition to your sig ;)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: vrm083 on March 04, 2006, 12:01:17 AM
yaaaaaaaaay bass!!  congrats!  :)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: bass on March 04, 2006, 03:36:39 AM
yaaaaaaaaay bass!!  congrats!  :)

Quote
congrats bass! good luck with the interview.

Thanks vrm and Chombi

Quote
As I think I said elsewhere, congrats! *hugs*  Grin

And I have to ask, but what the hell is ethnomusicology?

Thanks again, Lily.  As far as ethnomusicology goes, one way to think of it is as the anthropology of music.  You study music-cultures rather than music itself.  Generally, ethnomusicologists focus on one area of the world and do lots of fieldwork.  It often involves learning to play different types of instruments, but it always involves analyzing the music from a broader starting point than traditional musicology.

In my gf's case, she has already done fieldwork in India, where she learned how to play tabla in a small Gujarati village.  Her research led to a paper on gender and communal teaching.  While Classical Indian music isn't my thing, I think her research is really interesting and exciting.  Ethnomusicology is a young enough field that no one has studied exactly what she wrote about at all.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: nmb238 on March 05, 2006, 11:36:45 AM
Let the admission theorists rev their engines...

I got deferred at Harvard yesterday. I am absolutely shocked, as I was under the impression the LSAT of was of predominant importance and my 167 certainly is not their desired score. I am not a URM, and I went complete on 1/05. When I saw the thin envelope, I thought I would be 100% be reading a rejection letter, as people with scores higher and lower than mine have been rejected/accepted since then. Clearly not an auto-admit, but apparently not an auto-reject either.

So now what?
Or, Huh?

I am not sure I understand their strategy here- do they want more from me? I combed through this thread and it seems like a mixed opinion- do I send in more information? I just sent in an update on my thesis/new job/fall grades, literally I think it crossed the deferral letter in the mail. Should I send in a diversity statement (I am an observant Jew, which I didnt really mention in the original application) or a clear essay on why I want to go to Harvard (the same reasons as everyone else, plus I actually do love Boston and would LOVE to live there)? I sent in three LORs- a professor doubling as a thesis advisor, a professor doubling as a University administrator and the director of a student center on campus- should i dig up another one? One from my minimal work experience perhaps? A character reference? A photospread? Or is this just a courtesy deferral, and I should forget about it?

theres also one aspect to this that i dont wanna talk about publicly but if any of you really know what youre takling about / care, PM me and we can discuss it.

The Michigan waitlist surprised me because I thought with my numbers Id probably get in, and then that email was SO nice and friendly it made me want to go even more. And now this Harvard situation surprises me because I really thought they wouldnt look past my 167... Im really impressed that they did, which of course turns me on to the school even moreso.

any ideas or comment would rock my world.

~n

Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: nukelaw on March 06, 2006, 04:08:58 AM
FWIW, I'm sitting on a 166 as a vanilla male and also hanging on to HLS in the deferred pool.

The rule we've been using on the board since Toby's blog post on the subject (http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/admissions/2006/02/14#a45) is that unless you have something new to say, you want to keep your addenda as short as possible. Some previously agreed to examples on LSD include:

1) Declaring HLS as a first choice (though John Galt recently posted against this)
2) Declaring unconditionally that you will attend HLS if admitted (thought John Galt recently posted against this)
3) New job, publication, leadership position, or other bullet that requires and updated resume/CV
4) Citing reasonable personal factors for having to be in the Boston area (i.e. - wife/husband)
5) Letter of recommendation discussing your application from a previously unseen angle (i.e. - professor from a different school, supervisor from a different job)

Toby's blog post seems to warn against sending superfluous material that would merely repeat information already available in your initial application. A large debate broke out on the message board after the blog post because Toby seemed to imply that one could actually hurt one's chances for admission through the sending of additional material.

Of course, in the situation of the sub-170 brethern, I don't think we have anything to lose...
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: pass36 on March 09, 2006, 07:25:51 PM
I have no theories, excuses, explanations or predictions, but I will share that I received "the hold letter" today, dated 3/3/06.  I went complete about 1/20. Hope it helps somebody!
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: pass36 on March 09, 2006, 07:37:42 PM
I would not say I was happy about it, but it didn't ruin my day or anything.  It sounds like a rejection to me, especially the "if you haven't heard from us by mid-April" bit. 

I don't really have anything new to send them except I could write a "why Harvard" essay that would basically just be ass-kissing.  That seems like a waste of time and I would actually think less of them if they accepted me because of it. 

I think I would have done better with last year's committee which seemed to focus more on hard numbers and less on soft factors, but that might just be sour grapes.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: jmorrow on March 30, 2006, 06:49:05 AM
So it looks like the "Call from Harvard" thread is in celebratory mode, which is excellent. Good things do, apparently, happen.

In the meantime, I figure those of us waiting for that first call can still angst it out over here. The questions at hand:

(1) How many spots/rounds of interviews are left?
(2) When will they start rejecting the deferrals?
(3) Are they moving through the deferrals in an order?
(3a) If so, does that mean that you're finished once they pass your complete or deferral date?
(4) At what point does this just become a race for the waitlist?

Commence baseless speculation.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: nmb238 on March 30, 2006, 07:14:27 AM

I think I would have done better with last year's committee which seemed to focus more on hard numbers and less on soft factors, but that might just be sour grapes.

Thats EXACTLY what a Columbia 1L, Harvard undergrad graduate told me- they have a new admissions focus on more soft factors than just hard numbers. Its the ONLY way I can explain my hold, so Ill take it and PRAY that its true.

As for JMorrows useless but always welcome invitation to speculate:
I think the earlier holds are getting calls, I havent seen or heard of March holds getting any calls so theres time. I also think this happens in rounds, so if youre passed over the first time you still have an albeit small chance later on. I think in general this is a race for waitlist- at least for me- but I also think that with an emphasis on soft factors we are all going to be complementing the holes in the class as they become apparent. I think both while on hold and certainly on waitlist, we are backups in case other admits choose $$ at Columbia or Mich or Duke or something.

well seeeee

speculate away

~n
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: melicertes on March 30, 2006, 07:15:47 AM
So it looks like the "Call from Harvard" thread is in celebratory mode, which is excellent. Good things do, apparently, happen.

In the meantime, I figure those of us waiting for that first call can still angst it out over here. The questions at hand:

(1) How many spots/rounds of interviews are left?
(2) When will they start rejecting the deferrals?
(3) Are they moving through the deferrals in an order?
(3a) If so, does that mean that you're finished once they pass your complete or deferral date?
(4) At what point does this just become a race for the waitlist?

Commence baseless speculation.

I'm not sure any of us are in a position to offer a detailed prediction of what Harvard is going to do since unpredictability has defined their admissions process from the beginning.  However, I am fairly confident that there are at least a couple more rounds of Def->Accepted left before we see the waitlist.  So far, the apps that have made it in after a deferral all seem to come from around the same complete date.  Besides, there are still some pretty remarkable applicants out there (yourself included) that I would expect to get in. 

However, in the name of baseless speculation, I submit the following:

(1) How many spots/rounds of interviews are left? 
Two rounds of interviews, 100 or so spots.
(2) When will they start rejecting the deferrals?  Around the middle of April, probably on tax day just to make it extra painful for us.
(3) Are they moving through the deferrals in an order?  More or less in order.
(3a) If so, does that mean that you're finished once they pass your complete or deferral date?  For most, probably, but I expect a few people from the original deferral groups will still sneak in.
(4) At what point does this just become a race for the waitlist? Once the waitlist starts (again, probably mid April), remaining apps will be divided into rejects and waitlists pretty quickly. 

[/baseless speculation]


Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: ghaleon on March 30, 2006, 11:09:17 AM
I agree with most of melicertes's speculation. If Harvard sends it's waitlist notices out the same time as last year though, we won't be getting that decision until the first week of May.  :(
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: nmb238 on March 30, 2006, 12:45:11 PM
I agree with most of melicertes's speculation. If Harvard sends it's waitlist notices out the same time as last year though, we won't be getting that decision until the first week of May.  :(

but theyve done so little to mimic last years cycle, i wouldnt rely on that data for speculation. our own wandering imaginations are equally as reliable. ie, not at all.

~n
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: TeamBayern on March 30, 2006, 12:58:10 PM
I agree with melicertes too.  Also, have you guys noticed that it seems about one batch of people gets in every week (am i crazy or is this right)?  If so, do you think this will speed up/degenerate to a big free-for-all, or are there really only about two batches left? 

Once again, baseless speculation welcome.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: east_meets_west on April 16, 2006, 08:03:33 PM
If you never received a letter saying from HLS saying you are "on hold", but get an e-mail response to a request for info saying a decision has not yet been made, do you think that means you are on hold, or are you in some kind of weird limbo? This is me.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lululu on April 17, 2006, 10:00:24 AM
I haven't read all 26 pages of this thread... but what about those of us who haven't heard anything at all from HLS??  Is this good or bad?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: donaldduck on April 17, 2006, 06:29:14 PM
I haven't read all 26 pages of this thread... but what about those of us who haven't heard anything at all from HLS??  Is this good or bad?

I think it's bad ... really bad.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lau on April 18, 2006, 08:34:55 AM
I haven't read all 26 pages of this thread... but what about those of us who haven't heard anything at all from HLS??  Is this good or bad?

I think it's bad ... really bad.

i think it depends on when you went complete.
still. throw me a bone already!
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: supercilious88 on April 18, 2006, 08:46:01 AM
Went complete Feb 2 and haven't heard anything.

We'll see what happens.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lau on April 18, 2006, 09:38:33 AM
Went complete Feb 2 and haven't heard anything.

We'll see what happens.

LSN shows a mix of acceptances and rejections for 2/2 complete date... so maybe you're an unofficial hold? not as good as auto admit, but better than auto ding!!  :-\
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: east_meets_west on April 18, 2006, 10:42:50 AM
Yea I saw that; thing is, the 2/2 acceptances were all sent out earlier (mid-March), while the rejections have just been rolling out this week and last. So my thinking is that they had a little wave of rejections that they sent out, and us folks who haven't heard anything yet have made it past some kind of minimal "cut". We may be border-line candidates who they're waiting to give offers to or reject once they see how many deposits they get after May 1.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: lau on April 18, 2006, 10:56:25 AM
Yea I saw that; thing is, the 2/2 acceptances were all sent out earlier (mid-March), while the rejections have just been rolling out this week and last. So my thinking is that they had a little wave of rejections that they sent out, and us folks who haven't heard anything yet have made it past some kind of minimal "cut". We may be border-line candidates who they're waiting to give offers to or reject once they see how many deposits they get after May 1.

Thoughts?

in agreement. no matter how long you've been waiting, waiting still is no fun.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: nmb238 on April 18, 2006, 01:02:26 PM
We may be border-line candidates who they're waiting to give offers to or reject once they see how many deposits they get after May 1.

Thoughts?

but thats what the holds are... i mean i am no expert, but i cant understand why you havent received a hold if they were waiting to compare you to the rest of the class... i mean there are a few more spots, so of course there is hope, but id be really surprised at someone not having heard anything about a hold, and then get admitted at this point.

best of luck though, we allll need it

~n
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: east_meets_west on April 18, 2006, 01:58:15 PM
Yea, I wouldn't say we have a better chance than someone who received a hold per se. I only saw reason for optimism in not having been outright rejected as a bunch of 2-2 completion folks were in the last couple of days. But that's all just nitpicking...in the end it's going to be a wait until May 1 for almost everyone anyways I think.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Angelina1 on April 18, 2006, 02:12:59 PM
We may be border-line candidates who they're waiting to give offers to or reject once they see how many deposits they get after May 1.

Thoughts?

but thats what the holds are... i mean i am no expert, but i cant understand why you havent received a hold if they were waiting to compare you to the rest of the class... i mean there are a few more spots, so of course there is hope, but id be really surprised at someone not having heard anything about a hold, and then get admitted at this point.

best of luck though, we allll need it

~n

I don't think they sent out hold letters if you went complete after the first of this year (well, I don't know if that's the exact date, but that time frame). Everyone I've seen in all of the Harvard threads who has gotten an official hold notification applied way earlier. Those of us who just haven't heard anything applied later, so i don't think they're bothering with the hold letters. Especially not for me, since my application took until mid-March to go complete despite the fact that I LSAC'd it in January, and thus they technically have until mid-May before I could even start wondering why I didn't get a hold notification.  :P
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: TeamBayern on April 18, 2006, 04:43:15 PM
Its possible they stopped giving them out, but I went complete 1/12 and I receiced the hold letter in Mid-late March, so it must have been later than January that they stopped.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: supercilious88 on April 18, 2006, 07:40:41 PM
Chiashu gives me a 91% chance at Harvard, and although I could be in the 9%, I have a feeling that if they're going to reject me, it will take a while for them to do it.  At this point I feel like the applicant they really, really don't want but feel unconfident about rejecting because of my numbers.

I'm not holding my breath, although I really would've liked to have gotten a decision within 2 months of going complete, or at least a hold letter.

I don't think that I and the other 2/2s still around are any significantly different category than the "holds."  I bet the reason we never got a hold letter is really boring and has more to do with some simple mathematical formula regarding application dates plugged into a computer than a subtle difference between what they thought of our applications and what they thought of hold applications.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: east_meets_west on April 19, 2006, 05:51:12 AM
Superlicious, do you mind sharing your stats? Just wondering how you came up with the estimate.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Angelina1 on April 19, 2006, 06:24:45 AM
Superlicious, do you mind sharing your stats? Just wondering how you came up with the estimate.
The estimated chance (you mean the 91%, right?) he's referring to was calculated by this website:
www.chiashu.com

It calculates your percentage chances of getting into the schools you applied by plugging in your numbers and comparing them to profiles of other applicants who were admitted in previous years. It's a really rough estimate, though, because it is only based on the data of applicants who have signed up and entered their data. Also, you can see for yourself when you do it that the percentages can vary quite alot from year to year, so it's not until after a cycle is over that you could see your chances for it.

And, supercilious, I agree with you about the reason some didn't receive hold letters being a boring clerical one.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Angelina1 on April 19, 2006, 09:43:41 AM
i thought chiashu probability was based on lsac data?

I'm not sure...I just checked back on the FAQ's of the site and it doesn't say. It would certainly make more sense that way, I just seem to remember seeing, somewhere along the line, something that indicated it was only based on people participating, but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Angelina1 on April 19, 2006, 11:45:10 AM
i thought chiashu probability was based on lsac data?

I'm not sure...I just checked back on the FAQ's of the site and it doesn't say. It would certainly make more sense that way, I just seem to remember seeing, somewhere along the line, something that indicated it was only based on people participating, but I could be wrong.

well, there's the filter feature, which shows current users that meet your search criteria... but yeah i couldn't find anything about how they calculate probability either.

I think that this is what made me think the probability is based on current users--but, come to think of it, that wouldn't make sense because the site is relatively new, isn't it, and she has data going back several years, so I think it must be based on LSAC at least in part? Or at least the schools' self-reported stats.

It's only meant to be used as a rough estimate, anyway; just as long as nobody takes it as a final word on whether or not they should apply to a school. I think it's mostly just fun if you beat the odds! (see the "miracles, semi-miracles and long shots" thread)
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Jiashi on April 19, 2006, 02:44:36 PM
It's based on robots I wrote that crawled through the LSAC website through its many iterations to get really good estimates (down to the percent) of the regression model each school uses.  That's why some schools are not available.

If you log in and look at the filter function by clicking a school that is on your list, you can see how you can combine BOTH chiashu numbers and user data.

For an example see here:

http://www.chiashu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=30
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: supercilious88 on April 19, 2006, 06:50:20 PM
I would just like you to know that you have really become a god among men.  It must be nice to know that the name, "chiashu," is involved in hundreds or thousands of conversations about law school admissions every day.  I wouldn't be surprised if its meaning morphed in 100 years and it entered everyday usage.

"Hey, can you throw me that chiashu on the sofa?" 

"What's the chiashu on that?" 

"Mommy, my chiashu is broken!"

The possibilities: endless.

Now all you need to do is allow law schools to pay to make their admissions percentages appear higher than they really are so that more people send in hopeless applications (along with the fees, of course), and you can turn the name of "chiashu" into profits-- look at Google, it can happen.

----------------

On another note:  waiting, waiting, waiting on Harvard.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Jiashi on April 19, 2006, 07:02:11 PM
Ha.... thanks.   I've actually modified it so www.lawskool.net gets directed to my site.....  Chiashu gets misspelled too often.

I've kept my blog "Chiashu's Corner" for old time's sake.  And watch for ChiashuFlix this summer.... a free alternative to NetFlix for law students.

Good luck with Harvard.  Hopefully I won't see you next year (because I won't be here).  I really enjoyed my time here.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Dunson II on April 19, 2006, 09:50:41 PM
Ha.... thanks.   I've actually modified it so www.lawskool.net gets directed to my site.....  Chiashu gets misspelled too often.

I've kept my blog "Chiashu's Corner" for old time's sake.  And watch for ChiashuFlix this summer.... a free alternative to NetFlix for law students.

Good luck with Harvard.  Hopefully I won't see you next year (because I won't be here).  I really enjoyed my time here.

Awesome link.  Thanks my bookmarks are always so hard to remember to use.
Title: Re: Held at Harvard: What does this mean?
Post by: Jiashi on April 20, 2006, 02:26:28 PM
Is this the Dunson I know?  You're applying for next round right?