Law School Discussion

Specific Groups => Minority and Non-Traditional Law Students => Topic started by: kdlaw on January 12, 2006, 01:54:03 PM

Title: What do African Americans want?
Post by: kdlaw on January 12, 2006, 01:54:03 PM
I hear African Americans all of the time saying that white people dont wanna live around them and whites dont want this or that.  I have to say in all honesty that, in many parts of the country, black people are simply a plague to their community.  Look for the poor parts, its mostly black.  Look where the crime is, mostly black.  African Americans make up 13% of the population and what % of crime do you think that they commit?  Im not racist, I am well aware that there are degenerate white people too, I just want to live in an area where there are high class people.  These are just some thoughts.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on January 12, 2006, 02:01:21 PM
Sorry, no-one wil bite. If you are lonely, may I suggest the xoxo board?

Goodbye
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: blk_reign on January 12, 2006, 02:02:45 PM
can you afford to live in an area with high class people? I can..and do... thanks and goodbye...
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: chidochido on January 12, 2006, 02:06:26 PM
Do you think there is such a thing as what "white people" want? I'm not black, but my guess is that they just want to be treated like you want to be treated: as individuals.

Every community has its problems and while it is helpful to look at the specifics of a group's collective history and current state to make a plan for the future, I don't think clumping the AA community as a bunch of degenerates is going to be constructive to starting the type of discussion you want...that is, unless you're just BSing and trying to get a rise out of people, which you're sure to do with statements like those.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: Nemesis on January 12, 2006, 02:48:46 PM
...Im not racist,...


The fact that you needed to add a DISCLAIMER says it all  :D
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: Young Esq. on January 12, 2006, 03:58:32 PM
I hear African Americans all of the time saying that white people dont wanna live around them and whites dont want this or that.  I have to say in all honesty that, in many parts of the country, black people are simply a plague to their community.  Look for the poor parts, its mostly black.  Look where the crime is, mostly black.  African Americans make up 13% of the population and what % of crime do you think that they commit?  Im not racist, I am well aware that there are degenerate white people too, I just want to live in an area where there are high class people.  These are just some thoughts.

WoW, you make a lot of generalizations. To answer your question blacks want not to be and are tired of being Poor.  The education system sets us up to be poor and robs our children of economic ambition and financial literacy.  Also since we were not afforded the same land ownership possibilities as the early settlers and the fruits of the Homestead Act, wealth does not run in most of our families. The blacks that have money are first generation and worked hard for what they have. All we want is freedom and opportunity as a whole to experience the American Dream of economic prosperity.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: 2Lacoste on January 12, 2006, 04:15:44 PM
What he [Young] said.  He's on point.  Answer your question?
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: AH on January 12, 2006, 04:57:07 PM
Im not racist, I am well aware that there are degenerate white people too, I just want to live in an area where there are high class people. These are just some thoughts.

My family is poor.  My family has been poor for generations.  I cannot afford to live in an area with high class people (I wish I could and many of my friends who are black can).  Does that make me a degenerate? 
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: AH on January 12, 2006, 05:04:14 PM
Very short answer to a very complex question:

I just wrote a huge paper on that.  LOTS is wrong with the educaton system.  Mostly that low-income kids (usually minorities) have no options for schools because NCLB isn't really working and public education is completely disparte.

No solution is really apparent yet.  It's just clear what we're doing now isn't working and if you don't get a solid start you're pretty much F-ed for life.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: John Galt on January 12, 2006, 05:10:02 PM
REPARATIONS! WE WANT OUR REPARATIONS FOR SLAVERY!!!!











Not Really, we'd probably settle for white people to just stop screwing us over.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: George Jefferson˛ on January 12, 2006, 05:14:44 PM
REPARATIONS! WE WANT OUR REPARATIONS FOR SLAVERY!!!!











Not Really, we'd probably settle for white people to just stop screwing us over.

So much credit it's on a black card.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: AH on January 12, 2006, 05:17:41 PM
REPARATIONS! WE WANT OUR REPARATIONS FOR SLAVERY!!!!











Not Really, we'd probably settle for white people to just stop screwing us over.

I'm not trying to screw anyone over!  I promise!

There was this really interesting case (can't remember the name) after the Japanese Internment where the major argument for not wanting to give them repirations (which they ultimately got) was that African Americans would start asking for them for slavery and they'd get more money than the Japanese, then Native Americans would want them and they'd need more money than the African Americans.  Pretty funny (in a not funny at all sort of way).

mugatu-- it's a number of reasons.  the primary reason that comes to mind is that there is supposed to be busing for low-income students to high-income areas (yea, b/c low-income neighborhoods aren't generating tax revenue to fund schools) and that's not happening or if it does happen, the "white flight" goes along with it.

edit: Also, forgot to mention the obvious, that rich people pay for schools their kids don't attend all the time (private secondary school, then send their kids to fancy undergrads, rather than in-state schools where tax dollars contribute to the tutition).  The only real exception I see are those states with lots of quality public schools (CA, VA, MA, for example).
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: verbal on January 12, 2006, 05:31:55 PM
REPARATIONS! WE WANT OUR REPARATIONS FOR SLAVERY!!!!

an interesting thing is that most intelligent african americans realize that this is a bad idea. Native Americans r the perfect example of this. drug abuse and poverty r higher for native americans than any other group. allowing a subset of a population to live by a different set of rules or implying that a certain group needs more help than another group to suceed always leads to disaster.

their is a study that has been nationally published and retried several times over the last 15 years.  u take a 4 grade reading class. u split them up into 3 groups evenly dividing up the reading level of the students into each group. u tell one group that they r ot good at reading and u r going to try to work with them. u tell the second group that they r average at reading and u tell the third group that they r gifted.  at the end of six weeks u give the kids a reading text. the kids in the first group do the worst. the kids in the second group do better than the first and the kids in the first group do better than everyone.  this study is used to prove that encouraging kids to do well causes them to do better in school. i think it should be applied to society as well. if u tell a group of people they cant succeed on their own eventually they will believe u. this is my biggest problem with AA.  I am in favor of giving people from disadvantaged socioeconomic backround a little boost though.

ok so that was my serious answer. I was originally just going to throw out my joke so ill put it below for people now.

what do black people want? 40 acres and a mule









Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: AH on January 12, 2006, 05:45:14 PM
So the bussing? That improves education? I thought that was primarily for desegregation, you know, so people know there are people different from them and that's ok.

A poorer neighborhood cannot necessarily provide the tax stream necessary for a good school system, but there are ways to go to good high schools. Why do there have to be metal detectors at select school? Why are the kids bringing weapons to school that have to be confiscated? Is the school environment really bad and that's why a lot of poorer kids drop out?

I think it mostly has to do with economics. I don't think quite so much gets added to the equation, because I've known a lot of dumb rich kids, but I think a lot of the negatives that being poor are excluded.


Bussing was for desegregation, current bussing practice is to move low-income students to better-performing schools (as determined by standardized testing) which 9 times out of 10 are in a high income community.  Doesn't improve education overall, just on an individual level.  Doesn't actually work most of the time.  Check out NCLB.

Yea, I went to one of those school and even had to miss classes some days because of threats targeted at white kids (ironically).  Fortnately, one of the kids who threatened the student body told me "not to worry" when he showed me his piece in bio.  At least I know I'm in good with the hoodlums!

Kids aren't necessarily dropping out because they don't feel safe as much as they aren't inspired to make anything better of themselves.  For example, my counselor told me I would be lucky if I got into a community college. I can't explain why some kids brin weapons and even if I could the answers wouldn't need be universal.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: AH on January 12, 2006, 06:11:53 PM
Really, what inspire kids depends on the kid, I think it would vary a lot from school to school (under the assumption students in a similar region have similar needs, which of course culd be way off).  Committed teachers who offer help and advice, outlets for success (such as AP classes) and opportunities to  show success beyond what is seen in Cribs I think is a start.

I have no idea why she said that.  I was one of a grounp of about 25 in the honors program and had the highest SAT in the school (still a pretty mediocre score).  We had heavy institutional racism from day one, so that may have attributed to it (a teacher told my mom in college that all white girls looked the same to her), but maybe she just generally didn't like me.  that's really the best I can muster.  Can't imagine what she wrote in the dean's letter to colleges though.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: TinaTina on January 12, 2006, 06:13:05 PM

Look where the crime is, mostly black.  African Americans make up 13% of the population and what % of crime do you think that they commit?  Im not racist, I am well aware that there are degenerate white people too, I just want to live in an area where there are high class people.  These are just some thoughts.
[/quote]

Wow...if that ill-informed statement were an LSAT choice it'd be flagged for several "wrong-answer-type" attributes.  I'd say everyone has a fairly decent idea of where large populations of African-Americans can be found in this country.  So start by subtracting New York, Detroit, Chicago, Atlanta, New Orleans, Baltimore, and relatively small sections of some of the other southern states and already your concept of blameworthiness for crimes committed in this country seems just a tad skewed.  This is a large country, are we to believe that with regards to the rest of the country, Native Americans/Pacific Islanders/Asian Americans - being as they consitute such a large percentage of the total population - are engaged in crime sprees that would push the level of crimes committed by non-white to the proportions you're implying.  Some facts:

Data from the 1998 UCR indicate that differential
rates of arrest for crime are related
to race (see Snyder, 1999). Arrests of white
juveniles (under age 18) constituted 71 percent
of all juvenile arrests compared with
26 percent for black youth. American Indian
or Alaska Native and Asian or Pacific
Islanders account for 1 and 2 percent, respectively
(Federal Bureau of Investigation,
1999). Black youth were overrepresented,
given the fact that they make up 15 percent
of the juvenile population compared with
79 percent white and 5 percent other races.

Now this data pertains to juveniles...but for the sake of argument let's assume, that every AA juvenile moves on to being an adult offender, there still is a virtual mathematical impossibilty that crime is "mostly Black"  Quite the opposite it would seem.  I now turn your attention to the section where it mentions that realtive to their numbers the percentage of crime committed by AA is very high but surely we can all agree that this is due to several complex causation factors none of which anyone with even a rudimentary grasp of the social sciences...and I'm no expert...would ascribe to black people being classless.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: AH on January 12, 2006, 06:15:00 PM
Not to mention that those are ARRESTS.  How many black kids are targeted for arrests while the police let white kids go for the same offense?
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: chidochido on January 12, 2006, 07:02:02 PM


WoW, you make a lot of generalizations. To answer your question blacks want not to be and are tired of being Poor.  The education system sets us up to be poor and robs our children of economic ambition and financial literacy.  Also since we were not afforded the same land ownership possibilities as the early settlers and the fruits of the Homestead Act, wealth does not run in most of our families. The blacks that have money are first generation and worked hard for what they have. All we want is freedom and opportunity as a whole to experience the American Dream of economic prosperity.

How do you fix the education system?  Or, if not, what is wrong with the education system?

This is a complex issue. There are lots of things wrong with national education issues, mostly having to do with us being out-hustled by emerging and established education systems in the east. This is where you start to get problems with outsourcing, which are only exacerbated by the bush policy of denying visas to talented foreign students in the name on national security...
...as far as the education as it relates to economic disparity for minorities, that is a much easier problem to find a solution to. All you have to do is invest! Looking at the educational research it is NO SECRET that hiring qualified teachers and especially having smaller class sizes (which again means more $ for teachers and to build schools with, which is expensive) lead to higher achievement, regardless of race. I mean, that's the edge that most private schools and home-schooled children have if you think about it: more contact with their teacher. I teach in nyc and I have 35 kids in each class. Ask me how much time I can give each one of them in a 45 minute class...
...the answers are right in front of us but the people in positions of power aren't willing to put the money in. It's simple, really.

ps. If interested, look up info for New York City's Campaign for Fiscal Equity, which is trying to get billions in funding for nyc public schools from the state. Our REPO governor Pataki is trying to block it, but it shows the kind of legal work that I will be doing some time in the future...
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: AH on January 12, 2006, 07:19:18 PM
That would be really difficult.  You would need to pay teachers a LOT more (and attract teachers who actually care), funnel money to education (not football), overall the facility and course offerings.  A lot of it is changiong students attitudes, which may be harder than all of the above. 
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: chidochido on January 12, 2006, 07:27:48 PM
Well, the reasons for under-funding are complex, much more so than what I laid out in my tiny post earlier, but it boils down to people not wanting to pay for other people's kids (especially black and brown kids) to get a good education. If you've ever worked in state or national politics, there is a lot of that going on with people from affluent areas trying to keep 'their money' from trickling into the cities or metropolitan areas, which is usually where the POC live...
...I agree that attitudes need to change. Every school and even every classroom is a micro-community/institution/corporation that needs to be reinvigorated every once in a while. The only thing is, when a sports team sucks, you pay for the talent or bring in the best coach you can. When Sony starts to suck ass, they bring in a champion CEO from the west. When a school or district sucks, they make the school day longer (just more of what is not working), blame the teachers, or just give up on it...you need INVESTMENT!
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: verbal on January 12, 2006, 07:28:26 PM
u know im at oklahoma state right now. it cracks me up what u just said about putting money into education instead of football. a guy just gave 168 million dollars to our football team. the biggest donation in big 12 history.  i have all uper division classes for this my last semester in college. all five of y classes r overcrowded and crampt. 3 of my 5 teachers r grad students. i am not learning anything. i wonder what 168 million would do for the quality of education at my school
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: AH on January 12, 2006, 07:33:41 PM
I wasn't even thinking about college level!  That is so true though.  They pay for our football players to stay overnight in the nicest hotel in town for home games and pay for ALL of their expenses (including books), and I went to a IAA school.  My profs were always top-notch and class size never suffered, but I barely got any money for school and my EFC was $150 at its peak.   

I can't imagine what it must be like for schools with good football teams (my roommate went to VATECH and they seem expecially crazy).

Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: 2Lacoste on January 13, 2006, 01:22:52 AM
Reparations -- what if they came in the form of school vouchers lol?

Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: AH on January 13, 2006, 01:29:16 AM
That would be awesome!

Fresh Prince of Bel Air just did a PSA on something similar.  Weird, cause I've been watching the show forever and I totally don't remember this ep (it even has the guy from Mad About You and the Simpsons) in it.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: sck on January 13, 2006, 07:21:37 AM
Oh the education thing....

The boyfriend is a teacher, and I've listened to him gripe all week about his classes. They keep adding students... and they're adding them over the number of desks he has. He's trying his best to get them redistributed, because, y'know, he likes his students to have desks.... When you have 30+ kids it's definitely not enough to have the short classes, too. He spends a lot of time calming them down, and dealing with the kids who just don't get it at all. (He has some students he thinks should be special ed, but... are not.) Of course, he's also a supporter of year-round schools, because he hates having to reteach at the beginning of a year, too.

He taught at an inner city ghetto school last year, as well. Terrible high school; he got assaulted pretty regularly, and he's a big guy. Granted, he also thinks that being the big pasty white guy in a predominantly African American school was the problem in a way; a lot of the kids grew up to not trust authority, especially when it comes from white guys like himself. But the biggest issue is not only the lack of resources, but the lack of parental involvement and interest.

Plus, he lost his job at that school due to its poor performance on standardized tests... the year before he was there. He was furious -- it wasn't his fault, but the solution was to fire 40% of the staff and bring in Teach for America kids and some other teachers rather than help out with what needed really doing.

This is his biggest peeve. He loves it when the parents are interested; it means he'll generally have a better time with the kids. The ones who aren't, he finds, tend to have more trouble unless they're unusually driven. This also has something of a socioeconomic edge. Many parents who are poorer just don't have the time to devote to their kids and their education. They're always working, can't take the time, and often just can't be bothered. I find education to be as much a social pressure thing as an economic, too, to be honest.

I went to the best public school in my district -- it was scarily good. It was also affluent and had a very powerful PTA. Plus, the principal the first three years I was there ran the place with a velvet covered iron fist. It just flat-out worked and she actively got students the books they wanted. I swear, we didn't use the same books everyone else did. So I guess I was lucky in that way. The one I would have gone to without my transfer was decent as well... I'd probably have had a higher gpa, though.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on January 13, 2006, 08:48:45 AM

Look where the crime is, mostly black.  African Americans make up 13% of the population and what % of crime do you think that they commit?  Im not racist, I am well aware that there are degenerate white people too, I just want to live in an area where there are high class people.  These are just some thoughts.

Wow...if that ill-informed statement were an LSAT choice it'd be flagged for several "wrong-answer-type" attributes.  I'd say everyone has a fairly decent idea of where large populations of African-Americans can be found in this country.  So start by subtracting New York, Detroit, Chicago, Atlanta, New Orleans, Baltimore, and relatively small sections of some of the other southern states and already your concept of blameworthiness for crimes committed in this country seems just a tad skewed.  This is a large country, are we to believe that with regards to the rest of the country, Native Americans/Pacific Islanders/Asian Americans - being as they consitute such a large percentage of the total population - are engaged in crime sprees that would push the level of crimes committed by non-white to the proportions you're implying.  Some facts:

Data from the 1998 UCR indicate that differential
rates of arrest for crime are related
to race (see Snyder, 1999). Arrests of white
juveniles (under age 18) constituted 71 percent
of all juvenile arrests compared with
26 percent for black youth. American Indian
or Alaska Native and Asian or Pacific
Islanders account for 1 and 2 percent, respectively
(Federal Bureau of Investigation,
1999). Black youth were overrepresented,
given the fact that they make up 15 percent
of the juvenile population compared with
79 percent white and 5 percent other races.

Now this data pertains to juveniles...but for the sake of argument let's assume, that every AA juvenile moves on to being an adult offender, there still is a virtual mathematical impossibilty that crime is "mostly Black"  Quite the opposite it would seem.  I now turn your attention to the section where it mentions that realtive to their numbers the percentage of crime committed by AA is very high but surely we can all agree that this is due to several complex causation factors none of which anyone with even a rudimentary grasp of the social sciences...and I'm no expert...would ascribe to black people being classless.
[/quote]




These data don't help the argument that you are trying to make: they show that African-American kids are being arrested at twice the rate of their representation in the population.

A better and more accurate argument would be to suggest that African Americans are disproportionately the (direct) causes and victims of crime, and that there are, yes, structural/societal reasons for this. These reasons (or indirect "causal factors") need not be viewed as particularly complex:

1. African-Americans are disproportionately poor;

2. The African-American poor are culturally, geographically, socially and economically isolated from the remainder of society.

3. The African-American poor are cut off from the history of their pre-slavery traditions, and therefore without a strong cultural reference point that has the potential to dominate and replace the legacy of slavery and the formal institutionalised racism that came after.

4. Institutional and (nowadays mostly) unconscious racism creates an environment that - in the realm of public policy - by turns ignores the the above situation; stigmatizes this population; and devises policies and practices designed to *control* this population rather than to free it.

1 & 2 applies to all disadvantaged groups, including poor whites in Appalachia. If you check the crime stats on these poor & isolated populations you will find that they go a long way toward evening out disparities across 'groups', almost nullifying the effect of 'race';

3 & 4 are factors that are largely specific to African-Americans. Recent African immigrants to the United States, for example, do not face factor 3 and fare much better, despite the fact that they too are "black" and, when they arrive, mostly broke. And so on.

What - as Lenin would have said - is to be done? Target poverty for all groups. If we want to do it in a small-minded way, piecemeal and Clintonian, then government should remove pockets of poverty by better urban planning, by a change in the basis by which grade school education is financed, promoting small enterprise development in both the inner city and the backwoods, vocational education etc. And this for ALL groups in the situations described in 1 & 2 - whether they are "native americans", "mexicans", "whites" etc... 

Better, though, and simpler and likely more effective is to institute the idea suggested by Bruce Ackerman of Yale Law in "The Stakeholder Society" (I encourage everyone who hasn't to read it, it is highly persuasive): we should give every American who graduates from high school $80,000 in $20K installments over 4 years financed by a 2% annual tax on the wealth of the very wealthiest people in our country.

African-American civic organizations should address (3). No-one else can. The traditions of the "old-country", even if they could be identified (was it Hausa? Ibo? Bete?), are lost to African-Americans forever. Silliness like Kwanzaa isn't going to bring them back.  A specifically African-American cultural tradition needs to be fashioned out of the specifically African-American expeirnce that is one of hope for the future and optimism and of community with the rest of the population, not one that that is backward-looking, pessimistic and isolationist. The culture of bitches and ho's, of gangsta dress and the pimp walk, of "my-baby-daddy", of taking pride in underachievement (what Chris Rock, that great philosopher, would call the "n-word" culture) is here, there and everywhere, filling the gap between the need of youngstrs to affiliate with a culture that they can call their own and the lack of any positive strong tradition to affiliate with.

Instead, we have the call for reparations -  a ridiculous proposal by an intellectually and morally bankrupt civil rights movement, either blind to the tragedy around them or seeking to profit by it through empty rhetoric.

(4) is the weakest - and most overemphasized - factor. Nevertheless, it is real and counteracting it is the responsibility of all of us. We need, as a community of Americans, to watch the way in which all neighbourhoods are being policed; we need to care be vigilant in detecting unconscious racism in, say, the formulation of drug policy.

These kinds of efforts, though, pale in their effectiveness in addressing the root problem, when contrasted with efforts to seriously address 1, 2 & 3. And yet, they take up most of the oxygen in this debate. Sometimes I wonder why that is so, and sometimes I think I know why.

HTH
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: Lionel A. Moore on January 13, 2006, 09:58:52 AM
The last comment, which you made, says, "These are just thoughts." Well, I must beg your forgiveness, because I fail to see any thought put into anything in which you have stated. 

As an product of a single mother, who has raised three siblings on a teacher's salary of the 80's, I must first say that I believe, one is not a product of their envorinment, nor are those who grow up in an impoverished community degenerates, as you have said they are. I believe that a person's veiw on life and it's situations determines who he or she will become in life.

In answer to your question, I agree with other. We, as the government calls us, African Americans want nothing more than to be looked at through the eyes of one who is blind. 

As we know a person who is impaired visual must rely heavily on their other senses, but most importantly, on other people.  For one to think that their race is supreme, needing nothing from none other but their race shows ignorance, as well as, arrogance. Now, PLEASE don't mistake what I am saying. I am not saying that this is your view, what I am saying is that, other than the opportunites which has been attributed to various diverse people in  America, let alone the world, there is nothing that makes us any different as a group of people except for the amount of pigment and the color of our skin.

If I am wrong or my view of this matter is a bit twisted, then please, do not allow me to remain in my ignorance. Let me know and straighten me out, for I want to keep an open mind and see where you or anyone else is trying to come from. 

I like keeping an open mind.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on January 13, 2006, 10:15:14 AM
The last comment, which you made, says, "These are just thoughts." Well, I must beg your forgiveness, because I fail to see any thought put into anything in which you have stated. 

As an product of a single mother, who has raised three siblings on a teacher's salary of the 80's, I must first say that I believe, one is not a product of their envorinment, nor are those who grow up in an impoverished community degenerates, as you have said they are. I believe that a person's veiw on life and it's situations determines who he or she will become in life.

In answer to your question, I agree with other. We, as the government calls us, African Americans want nothing more than to be looked at through the eyes of one who is blind. 

As we know a person who is impaired visual must rely heavily on their other senses, but most importantly, on other people.  For one to think that their race is supreme, needing nothing from none other but their race shows ignorance, as well as, arrogance. Now, PLEASE don't mistake what I am saying. I am not saying that this is your view, what I am saying is that, other than the opportunites which has been attributed to various diverse people in  America, let alone the world, there is nothing that makes us any different as a group of people except for the amount of pigment and the color of our skin.

If I am wrong or my view of this matter is a bit twisted, then please, do not allow me to remain in my ignorance. Let me know and straighten me out, for I want to keep an open mind and see where you or anyone else is trying to come from. 

I like keeping an open mind.

 ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: chidochido on January 13, 2006, 02:23:06 PM

I don't think it's that so much as it is net worth.  If you centralize education funding, home values would drop by $300,000 overnight in some wealthy suburbs. 

I'm open to this idea but I'm not sure I follow you...please explain!
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on January 13, 2006, 03:14:42 PM

I don't think it's that so much as it is net worth.  If you centralize education funding, home values would drop by $300,000 overnight in some wealthy suburbs. 

I'm open to this idea but I'm not sure I follow you...please explain!

Many people move to nice neighbourhoods because of the school district. That's why they pay premium prices for the homes. The price premium is the perceived value of the education that their kids will receive in the local public schools. Remove the system of local funding for local schools and you'll have to deal with a collapse in home prices in those neighbourhoods.

Not surprisingly, people who have paid that price premium do not want this to happen. They would vote out, scratch that - they would recall any politician who tried to do any such thing. Politicians know this. No-one, therefore, will propose such a reform measure. They will instead propose measures that don't work like "testing", and measures that can't work, like "raising teachers' salaries". To those not in the know, these sound like plausible policies; to those in the know they are a sort of inside joke. Nudge nudge, wink wink.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: chidochido on January 13, 2006, 03:34:44 PM
Ok I see what you mean now...well all you have to do is put some kind of revenue sharing principle in there, or add state funding to level out the disparities...The local funding formula is just another reason why people should want to invest in other people's kids: it raises their property values. Even so, it's not as simple as that when you add magnet programs and private schools into the mix..
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: misery on January 13, 2006, 04:51:54 PM
redemption: Very nice post, it's a rarity finding well reasoned arguments in this forum.  Are you an URM, or minority, even?
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on January 13, 2006, 05:02:23 PM
redemption: Very nice post, it's a rarity finding well reasoned arguments in this forum.  Are you an URM, or minority, even?

Thanks. No, I'm not a URM.

Reasoned arguments are the only way out of the status quo and toward consensus and, hopefully, progress. there's been too little progress for too long.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: chidochido on January 13, 2006, 05:04:12 PM
Second the comment on redemption by the way...very well put!
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: Lionel A. Moore on January 13, 2006, 06:26:33 PM
redemption I must argee with our colleagues, you are very literate, as well as, well spoken.

Redemption,

     wasn't neighborhood schooling the same as the current, until we started busing children?
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: TinaTina on January 13, 2006, 09:09:11 PM
OKay, to take that to an extreme et's say non-white Hispanics made up 1/2 of that 71%. That would still mean non-Hispanic whites accounted for 35.5 percent of the arrest, almost 10% more than African americans, thus refuting the implication made by the author of this thread that AA are responsible for most of the country's crime.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on January 13, 2006, 09:17:54 PM
OKay...to take that to an extreme...let's say non-white Hispanics made up 1/2 of that 71%...that would still mean non-Hispanic whites accounted for 35.5 percent of the arrest...almost 10% more than African americans...thus refuting the implication made by the author of this thread that AA are responsible for most of the country's crime.

this is pathetic
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on January 13, 2006, 09:18:48 PM

Look where the crime is, mostly black.  African Americans make up 13% of the population and what % of crime do you think that they commit?  Im not racist, I am well aware that there are degenerate white people too, I just want to live in an area where there are high class people.  These are just some thoughts.

Wow...if that ill-informed statement were an LSAT choice it'd be flagged for several "wrong-answer-type" attributes.  I'd say everyone has a fairly decent idea of where large populations of African-Americans can be found in this country.  So start by subtracting New York, Detroit, Chicago, Atlanta, New Orleans, Baltimore, and relatively small sections of some of the other southern states and already your concept of blameworthiness for crimes committed in this country seems just a tad skewed.  This is a large country, are we to believe that with regards to the rest of the country, Native Americans/Pacific Islanders/Asian Americans - being as they consitute such a large percentage of the total population - are engaged in crime sprees that would push the level of crimes committed by non-white to the proportions you're implying.  Some facts:

Data from the 1998 UCR indicate that differential
rates of arrest for crime are related
to race (see Snyder, 1999). Arrests of white
juveniles (under age 18) constituted 71 percent
of all juvenile arrests compared with
26 percent for black youth. American Indian
or Alaska Native and Asian or Pacific
Islanders account for 1 and 2 percent, respectively
(Federal Bureau of Investigation,
1999). Black youth were overrepresented,
given the fact that they make up 15 percent
of the juvenile population compared with
79 percent white and 5 percent other races.

Now this data pertains to juveniles...but for the sake of argument let's assume, that every AA juvenile moves on to being an adult offender, there still is a virtual mathematical impossibilty that crime is "mostly Black"  Quite the opposite it would seem.  I now turn your attention to the section where it mentions that realtive to their numbers the percentage of crime committed by AA is very high but surely we can all agree that this is due to several complex causation factors none of which anyone with even a rudimentary grasp of the social sciences...and I'm no expert...would ascribe to black people being classless.

Keep in mind, however, that Hispanics are often counted in as white. 


[/quote]

and so is this
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: TinaTina on January 13, 2006, 09:23:40 PM
Wow!  That makes three in one day. Up until now I was willing to discount the homeless guy on the number 1 train who sneered at the paltry $.50 I proffered.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on January 13, 2006, 09:25:46 PM
read my long-ass post below. You'll follow me then. This conversation that the 2 of you are having is embarrassing
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on January 13, 2006, 09:27:57 PM
You can always delete these last posts, and it'll be like it never happened.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: TinaTina on January 13, 2006, 09:30:40 PM
It seems that you're taking this a little too personally. It seems that people posted their opinions, read that of others and are for the most part willing to move on.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on January 13, 2006, 09:34:00 PM
read. think. post. That's usually the order in which things are done. You are responding to a random flame by a racist and dumb kid from Mississippi by chasing your tail and contradicting yourself with tweedle dum. Take a breath. Don't be so quick  to thow out random data. Read the posts of people who have put things up before you. Think about what's been posted, respond with commentary and/or questions and/or new ideas.

But not this. This - what you're doing now, is foolishness. unless you're drunk, of course. In which case, it's fine.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: TinaTina on January 13, 2006, 09:40:28 PM
I responded as I did because the lesser tangent of education did not interest me. And as to what I wrote, it made sense to me. Perhaps I didn't completely flesh it out with bullet points and such but I wasn't thinking a one person tribunal would immediately spring into action once it was posted.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: TinaTina on January 13, 2006, 09:55:25 PM
Got ya! Next time instead of responding to another user's comment directly who I may add directly responded to mine I'll just direct them to your post.  If you notice I did not respond to your post which I felt was a tacit admission of its strength on my part but then again maybe it would help if you knew that the other user and I read the same article and therefore knew what we were referring to. Of course I suppose I should have called him on the phone and not bother you with our exchange but he hasn't slipped me the digits yet.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on January 13, 2006, 09:58:29 PM
why would you trade crime stats by race? To prove the OP wrong?! i don't get it. Maybe I'm the one who's had too many glasses of wine.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: misery on January 14, 2006, 12:31:02 AM
What in the world are you guys trying to argue with the statistics?  If you wanted to suggest that blacks commit disproportionately more crimes, the statistics speak for themselves.  Unfortunately, the statistics do not take into account the wealth or location, two key factors which obviously play a big role in crime.  It would not be hard to imagine that lots of blacks live in poorer/more densely populated areas.  I'd be interested in seeing statistics specific to race AND income, as that would paint a much clearer picture.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: chidochido on January 14, 2006, 02:10:02 AM
Ok I see what you mean now...well all you have to do is put some kind of revenue sharing principle in there, or add state funding to level out the disparities...The local funding formula is just another reason why people should want to invest in other people's kids: it raises their property values. Even so, it's not as simple as that when you add magnet programs and private schools into the mix..

You don't have to send your kid to the public school in order to benefit from the public school system's funding structure...

precisely...that's why everyone should fund publics...
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: kdlaw on January 14, 2006, 05:53:47 PM
Sorry, no-one wil bite. If you are lonely, may I suggest the xoxo board?

Goodbye

Good call, redemption, no one responded.  I think that you even had a few extra. lmao.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on January 15, 2006, 06:01:28 AM
Sorry, no-one wil bite. If you are lonely, may I suggest the xoxo board?

Goodbye

Good call, redemption, no one responded.  I think that you even had a few extra. lmao.

I tried.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: FossilJ on January 15, 2006, 06:52:13 AM
read my long-ass post below. You'll follow me then. This conversation that the 2 of you are having is embarrassing

Ahh, I see.  So now it's embarassing to post data compiled by the FBI. 

The solution to any problem is not deluding yourself into thinking it doesn't exist.

Actually, she responded directly to your data, as well as your further comment on the data (regarding Hispanics).

Clearly, you did not bother reading her eloquent and convincing response.


red:  We don't always agree, but we're agreed on this one.  I'd probably haggle on some minor points, but the essence of that post stands uncontested.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on January 15, 2006, 11:20:07 AM
I'm open to disagreement. Helps me learn. Your posts always entertaining and well thought out. Can't ask for more than that.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: TinaTina on January 15, 2006, 06:43:17 PM
I hope the invitation for disagreement isn't restricted to MaraudingJ only, but I'd object to Factor 3 being listed as a factor at all (a few dingbats does not a race concensus make: see the Pats, Robertson and Buchanan) Additionally I'd also disagree with you dismissing Factor 4 as the weakest.  You mention that it's overemphasized as if that necessarily a bad thing.  I know I'm not really giving explanations as to why but an analogy for clarity with regard to Factor 4: it's as if a patient visits a doctor and says, "Doctor, my stomach hurts".  The doctor responds, "No, given your symptoms I think your head hurts, I'll give you medication for that."  Which matters more, what the patient - who is experiencing the sensation - thinks hurt or what the doctor - with his expertise - thinks hurt?
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: FossilJ on January 15, 2006, 07:03:59 PM
I'll leave it to redemption to reply first.

However, regarding your analogy, I'd go with the doctor.  The patient could die from the problem in his head, even if he thinks it's in his stomach.  It's the doctor's responsibility to address the cause as he sees it, and, given his wealth of knowledge, he's probably more qualified than the patient to do so.

By the way, that was a terribly weak analogy.  Try again.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: TinaTina on January 15, 2006, 07:06:01 PM
Did you even understand what the analogy was in reference to?
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: FossilJ on January 15, 2006, 07:09:59 PM
Clearly, I didn't.   :D

Fun jibe retracted.  I was too lazy to go over the post again.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: TinaTina on January 15, 2006, 07:18:34 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on January 15, 2006, 08:14:45 PM
I hope the invitation for disagreement isn't restricted to MaraudingJ only, but I'd object to Factor 3 being listed as a factor at all (a few dingbats does not a race concensus make: see the Pats, Robertson and Buchanan) Additionally I'd also disagree with you dismissing Factor 4 as the weakest.  You mention that it's overemphasized as if that necessarily a bad thing.  I know I'm not really giving explanations as to why but an analogy for clarity with regard to Factor 4: it's as if a patient visits a doctor and says, "Doctor, my stomach hurts".  The doctor responds, "No, given your symptoms I think your head hurts, I'll give you medication for that."  Which matters more, what the patient - who is experiencing the sensation - thinks hurt or what the doctor - with his expertise - thinks hurt?

This is a discussion board. I welcome all rebuttals that will help me think more clearly and wisely about topics that I'm interested in.

I'm not sure that I follow what the relationship is between factor 3 and the Pats?

As for factor 4. Yes, I think it is overemphasized. It is real, yes. But that seems to be the thing that we - as a society - talk about most: in disproportion to it's importannce. My argument is based on the strength of the corelation between poverty and crime, and on the weakness of the correlation between race and crime after race has been (statistically) removed as a factor. I would remind you, for context, that the point at which I posted was when the conversation had turned to the relationship between race and crime.

To the extent that I follow the analogy of the doctor and the patient, it is my understanding that the patient and the doctor need to work together in determining an appropriate course of treatment. The patient says my head hurts hurts, the doctor does his thing and diagnoses a pinched nerve (say) and tells this to the patient. The latter had better have a good reason to overrule the doctor's diagnosis and recommended course of treatment. That's the best that I can do.

You could explain your concerns about 3 to me, though, and I'll try to respond more clearly. There may even be a retraction in the offing if you are convincing  :)
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: TinaTina on January 15, 2006, 11:14:14 PM


3. The African-American poor are cut off from the history of their pre-slavery traditions, and therefore without a strong cultural reference point that has the potential to dominate and replace the legacy of slavery and the formal institutionalised racism that came after.


African-American civic organizations should address (3). No-one else can. The traditions of the "old-country", even if they could be identified (was it Hausa? Ibo? Bete?), are lost to African-Americans forever. Silliness like Kwanzaa isn't going to bring them back.  A specifically African-American cultural tradition needs to be fashioned out of the specifically African-American expeirnce that is one of hope for the future and optimism and of community with the rest of the population, not one that that is backward-looking, pessimistic and isolationist. The culture of bitches and ho's, of gangsta dress and the pimp walk, of "my-baby-daddy", of taking pride in underachievement (what Chris Rock, that great philosopher, would call the "n-word" culture) is here, there and everywhere, filling the gap between the need of youngstrs to affiliate with a culture that they can call their own and the lack of any positive strong tradition to affiliate with.

Instead, we have the call for reparations -  a ridiculous proposal by an intellectually and morally bankrupt civil rights movement, either blind to the tragedy around them or seeking to profit by it through empty rhetoric.


    As you can see in your quote above you spoke about reparations which was what I connected to the Pats.  The Pats as far as I can tell are always spouting rhetoric on the behalf of the conservatives, the religious right or whatever broad-sounding label they are choosing to apply to the sub-sect of the general population they represent.  People listen, people react but they never take it as fact that the Pats' views should be taken as the sole representation of the political aspirations of the greater group or even that sub-group itself.  Perhaps it is a luxury of being in the majority but most people realize that no one person could ever speak for that entire group.  Even during the hey-day of the Civil Rights movement there were different camps.  There were some who identified with the teaching of MLK, some who gravitated towards Malcom X and some who didn't feel either of these men spoke to them and their needs.  Reparation for slavery has never been a concept that has been widely embraced by the African-American community.  Hell, there hasn't even been a decision on the labels African-American versus Black yet.  Some people may be bigger media whores than others but it isn't a given that they are the mouthpiece of their race.  It just means they have bigger mouths.

     I am going to make a statement now and it shouldn't be taken as fact.  I believe that the majority of the race isn't interested in moving back to Africa.  They know they're not African.  In fact 75% of African-Americans have a white forebear.  The ones who thought of themselves as Africans took steps to make that a reality.  It's called Liberia.  I think most African-Americans are more interested in more than a heavily-sanitized, generic, general apology for the way their progress as a people has been hampered by the laws and practices of America until quite recently.  Most people, upon hearing a Black person refer to the hardships their people have endured, groan and say slavery has been over for centuries.  But it really hasn't.  With the exception of the years of the Reconstruction - during which the African-American race mostly flourished in their new-found freedom - slavery didn't end until desegregation ended.  There is considerable psychological damage that is inflicted by being made aware every day of your life that you are not valued, you are not welcomed and you are not respected.  There is much to be said for those who have prevailed in spite of this, but the exception does not make the rule. 

     It is 2006, only forty years removed from that tumultuous time.  The people who lived during that period did not disappear when schools got desegregated, when Blacks didn't have to have separate toilets, when it became politically incorrect to treat Blacks as if they were wayward children who must be contained and restricted for their own good.  They grew cautious.  They had children and they taught those children everything they had learnt.  They told them to never forget.  To never forget that it wasn't so long ago, to never forget that once we were subjected to LAWS that dehumanized us, that it could be easily rescinded as it was before.  To never forget when people roll their eyes and say shouldn't we be over this by now, to remember every detail because if you forget it will happen again.  Now throw this attitude against the distrust of the African-American that led to their subjugation post-slavery and you can see how we have the results we have now.  Individuals may interact, but when you speak in terms of races, the distrust remains, the bitterness reamins, the misunderstanding remains.  Other groups of immigrants have come to America, started poor and eventually pulled themselves into the middle-class.  But as a group, this reamins an elusive goal to African-Americans.  The sad part is that even the African-Americans who achieve do not seem to redeem the group as a whole but inadvertently become poster children for the opinion that African Americans who don't achieve don't deserve to. 

        In contrast to your assertion that no one but African-American civic organizations should address 3, I claim that any initiatives that are generated by and inplemented solely by these groups are doomed to failure.  This is not an issue that can be addressed and solved by the Afriacn American because it does not originate solely from that community. I've rambled considerably and although at the beginnning of this post my aim was not to address Factor 4 since it is purely subjective and therefore cannot ever be reliably ascertained but I'm sure I've failed and spilled over a little.

*Edit...indents and spaces for readability*
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: TinaTina on January 15, 2006, 11:17:32 PM
Ok, so I came off a little preachy. ;D And, obviously the entire week of grade school English spent discussing paragraphs went over my head.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on January 16, 2006, 11:12:11 AM

    As you can see in your quote above you spoke about reparations which was what I connected to the Pats.  The Pats as far as I can tell are always spouting rhetoric on the behalf of the conservatives, the religious right or whatever broad-sounding label they are choosing to apply to the sub-sect of the general population they represent.  People listen, people react but they never take it as fact that the Pats' views should be taken as the sole representation of the political aspirations of the greater group or even that sub-group itself.  Perhaps it is a luxury of being in the majority but most people realize that no one person could ever speak for that entire group.  Even during the hey-day of the Civil Rights movement there were different camps.  There were some who identified with the teaching of MLK, some who gravitated towards Malcom X and some who didn't feel either of these men spoke to them and their needs.  Reparation for slavery has never been a concept that has been widely embraced by the African-American community.  Hell, there hasn't even been a decision on the labels African-American versus Black yet.  Some people may be bigger media whores than others but it isn't a given that they are the mouthpiece of their race.  It just means they have bigger mouths.

     I am going to make a statement now and it shouldn't be taken as fact.  I believe that the majority of the race isn't interested in moving back to Africa.  They know they're not African.  In fact 75% of African-Americans have a white forebear.  The ones who thought of themselves as Africans took steps to make that a reality.  It's called Liberia.  I think most African-Americans are more interested in more than a heavily-sanitized, generic, general apology for the way their progress as a people has been hampered by the laws and practices of America until quite recently.  Most people, upon hearing a Black person refer to the hardships their people have endured, groan and say slavery has been over for centuries.  But it really hasn't.  With the exception of the years of the Reconstruction - during which the African-American race mostly flourished in their new-found freedom - slavery didn't end until desegregation ended.  There is considerable psychological damage that is inflicted by being made aware every day of your life that you are not valued, you are not welcomed and you are not respected.  There is much to be said for those who have prevailed in spite of this, but the exception does not make the rule. 

     It is 2006, only forty years removed from that tumultuous time.  The people who lived during that period did not disappear when schools got desegregated, when Blacks didn't have to have separate toilets, when it became politically incorrect to treat Blacks as if they were wayward children who must be contained and restricted for their own good.  They grew cautious.  They had children and they taught those children everything they had learnt.  They told them to never forget.  To never forget that it wasn't so long ago, to never forget that once we were subjected to LAWS that dehumanized us, that it could be easily rescinded as it was before.  To never forget when people roll their eyes and say shouldn't we be over this by now, to remember every detail because if you forget it will happen again.  Now throw this attitude against the distrust of the African-American that led to their subjugation post-slavery and you can see how we have the results we have now.  Individuals may interact, but when you speak in terms of races, the distrust remains, the bitterness reamins, the misunderstanding remains.  Other groups of immigrants have come to America, started poor and eventually pulled themselves into the middle-class.  But as a group, this reamins an elusive goal to African-Americans.  The sad part is that even the African-Americans who achieve do not seem to redeem the group as a whole but inadvertently become poster children for the opinion that African Americans who don't achieve don't deserve to. 

        In contrast to your assertion that no one but African-American civic organizations should address 3, I claim that any initiatives that are generated by and inplemented solely by these groups are doomed to failure.  This is not an issue that can be addressed and solved by the Afriacn American because it does not originate solely from that community. I've rambled considerably and although at the beginnning of this post my aim was not to address Factor 4 since it is purely subjective and therefore cannot ever be reliably ascertained but I'm sure I've failed and spilled over a little.

*Edit...indents and spaces for readability*

I see your point about the Pats and reparations. I agree with you, I think, that is is unlikely that the majority of AAs believe in reparations as a goal of public policy, although I'm not as sure as you are and I have no way of finding out. What I do believe more strongly is that people with the loudest megaphones set the policy agenda, and to the extent that the Pats have place that issue on the agenda for everyone to get hot and bothered about, other more meaningful, practical and likely more effective prespcriptions will not be seriously discussed. I think that the last 40 years of our history bears this out.

In practice, once the idea of reparations enters the bloodstream, I believe that even the people for whom that is an unworkable and misdirected proposal will spend a lot of energy rebutting it, to the exclusion of other policy debates. If I were a bewspaper editor or a television producer, for example, I would be very much tempted to feature it as THE policy debate on race. My circulation and/or ratings would surely not suffer from that decision. We will likely also begin to speak the language of reparations - as we have now, by analogy, apparently begun to speak in the language of the "war on terror", a hitherto ridiculous and incomprehensible concept.

I have no disagreement with you on the importance and effects of stigmatization by race. To say that it is overemphasized is not, I hope, to say that it should not be emphasized at all. Once again, I am aiming for balance. If we are aiming to construct public policy that is driven by the statistical evidence, we need to recognize two things: a) crime is largely a function of poverty; 2) the association between crime and poverty (plus the error term) doesn't explain all of the variation. The remainder is to some extent explained by race and isolation, in combination.

Since I have no reason to give any credit whatsoever to explanations based on genetics or whatever else that is deemed to constitute innate differences among groups, and I do have some basis for positing that there are what we, for shorthand, call "cultural" differences, I focus my inquiry and attention there. If something is to be done about changing the culture of any group, those changes must come from within that very group - it is hard to imagine it being otherwise. Nevertheless, cultural change is an organic process and a rational social response to the wider societal environment. It must be so; it cannot be otherwise. Therefore, I turn my attention principally to the wider social and economic environment (what we americans call "opportunity"; what other societies call "solidarity" or "community"), and I emphasize that as being key. It - freedom of opportunity, and equal access to enjoying the rights of citizenship and of being-in-the-world - are the prerequisite for individual responsibility. There can (conceptually) be no duty without rights, and, in the real world it has never been so. Take care of rights and duties will largely take care of themselves. It has, as I say, always been so.

Nothing fruitful can come of speaking of duties first. And the definition of "rights" must be one that the entire polity, more or less, and not just the majority, agrees on as being important. I'm no political philosopher, but I believe that this distinction is one that delineates the difference between a liberal society and a totalitarian one.

These seem to me to be reasonable and commonsensical points. And yet, we live in a society that broadly rejects these views. "Individual responsibility" is king. When we see someone who escapes a background of disadvantage, we seem to say "She did it", so anyone or everyone else from that background can also "do it" if they put their minds to it, if they have the character to do it. I can see why: it is, for one thing, perhaps a useful device that allows us to say that we - the rest of us, and the way that we have organized our society - are ok. It is, though, as if we were devising a public health strategy based on the very few people that are immune to HIV infection or to smoking-related cancer. The measurement error is not, I think, the best indicator from which to build the entire edifice of a social philosophy.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: Freak on January 17, 2006, 09:37:13 PM
Redemption, your intial long post was very well done. I have one point of contention but I'll address it tomorrow.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: Freak on January 18, 2006, 07:32:11 PM
These data [see page 3] don't help the argument that you are trying to make: they show that African-American kids are being arrested at twice the rate of their representation in the population.

A better and more accurate argument would be to suggest that African Americans are disproportionately the (direct) causes and victims of crime, and that there are, yes, structural/societal reasons for this. These reasons (or indirect "causal factors") need not be viewed as particularly complex:

1. African-Americans are disproportionately poor;

2. The African-American poor are culturally, geographically, socially and economically isolated from the remainder of society.

3. The African-American poor are cut off from the history of their pre-slavery traditions, and therefore without a strong cultural reference point that has the potential to dominate and replace the legacy of slavery and the formal institutionalised racism that came after.

4. Institutional and (nowadays mostly) unconscious racism creates an environment that - in the realm of public policy - by turns ignores the the above situation; stigmatizes this population; and devises policies and practices designed to *control* this population rather than to free it.

1 & 2 applies to all disadvantaged groups, including poor whites in Appalachia. If you check the crime stats on these poor & isolated populations you will find that they go a long way toward evening out disparities across 'groups', almost nullifying the effect of 'race';

3 & 4 are factors that are largely specific to African-Americans. Recent African immigrants to the United States, for example, do not face factor 3 and fare much better, despite the fact that they too are "black" and, when they arrive, mostly broke. And so on.

What - as Lenin would have said - is to be done? Target poverty for all groups. If we want to do it in a small-minded way, piecemeal and Clintonian, then government should remove pockets of poverty by better urban planning, by a change in the basis by which grade school education is financed, promoting small enterprise development in both the inner city and the backwoods, vocational education etc. And this for ALL groups in the situations described in 1 & 2 - whether they are "native americans", "mexicans", "whites" etc... 

Better, though, and simpler and likely more effective is to institute the idea suggested by Bruce Ackerman of Yale Law in "The Stakeholder Society" (I encourage everyone who hasn't to read it, it is highly persuasive): we should give every American who graduates from high school $80,000 in $20K installments over 4 years financed by a 2% annual tax on the wealth of the very wealthiest people in our country.

The wealthiest people hold tremendous power to avoid taxes like these. In addition, there is a study, I’ll look it up if you insist, which shows that most people given a windfall squander it. It applied to much more than $20k/yr, but the principle remains though perhaps mitigated by the relatively small amount of $20k/yr.

Quote
African-American civic organizations should address (3). No-one else can. The traditions of the "old-country", even if they could be identified (was it Hausa? Ibo? Bete?), are lost to African-Americans forever. Silliness like Kwanzaa isn't going to bring them back.  A specifically African-American cultural tradition needs to be fashioned out of the specifically African-American expeirnce that is one of hope for the future and optimism and of community with the rest of the population, not one that that is backward-looking, pessimistic and isolationist. The culture of bitches and ho's, of gangsta dress and the pimp walk, of "my-baby-daddy", of taking pride in underachievement (what Chris Rock, that great philosopher, would call the "n-word" culture) is here, there and everywhere, filling the gap between the need of youngstrs to affiliate with a culture that they can call their own and the lack of any positive strong tradition to affiliate with.

Instead, we have the call for reparations -  a ridiculous proposal by an intellectually and morally bankrupt civil rights movement, either blind to the tragedy around them or seeking to profit by it through empty rhetoric.

Not a point of contention, but high school history classes ought to address this problem as well.

Quote
(4) is the weakest - and most overemphasized - factor. Nevertheless, it is real and counteracting it is the responsibility of all of us. We need, as a community of Americans, to watch the way in which all neighbourhoods are being policed; we need to care be vigilant in detecting unconscious racism in, say, the formulation of drug policy.

These kinds of efforts, though, pale in their effectiveness in addressing the root problem, when contrasted with efforts to seriously address 1, 2 & 3. And yet, they take up most of the oxygen in this debate. Sometimes I wonder why that is so, and sometimes I think I know why.

HTH

I agree with the points I didn’t address.

I do offer one other idea, home ownership. The best way to reduce crime in a neighborhood is for people to own their dwelling which gives them a greater stake in the long-term condition of the area. It’s not as difficult as one might expect to own your first home; it just takes a willingness to commit to an area for many years. There are many, many, programs to eliminate the need for a down-payment and an excellent credit-rating. It’d also solve many of the poverty issues as home ownership provides equity while rent simply throws money away.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on January 18, 2006, 08:09:04 PM
I agree with every reservation that you have expressed here. I have these reservations myself.

Ackerman's book in fact presents some of the possible objections - including the homeownership exemption and the issue of tax avoidance by the wealthy - and addresses them, usually persuasively.

High school history classes, while part of the solution cannot be as effective as living a tradition and experiencing a culture. What is wrong today is not so much what is missing from the curriculum of these kids as wht is missing and what is wrong with their lived, daily cultural experience.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: FossilJ on January 18, 2006, 08:13:34 PM
Curriculums (curricula?  curriculi?) are a joke, anyway.  I fully agree with the consensus here, Freak and red.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: Lionel Hutz on March 05, 2006, 10:47:03 PM
REPARATIONS! WE WANT OUR REPARATIONS FOR SLAVERY!!!!

I'm with you on that. Let the payouts begin tomorrow.









Not Really, we'd probably settle for white people to just stop screwing us over.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: Wiseplato on March 17, 2006, 02:57:22 PM
My great great grandfather died fighting for the Union during the civil war, do you think I'm entitled to reparations?  I could really use the money.  Also, my ancestors were persecuted for being Irish in New York.  I think I'm entitled to reparations for that as well. 
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: dividebyzero on March 17, 2006, 03:02:14 PM
My great great grandfather died fighting for the Union during the civil war, do you think I'm entitled to reparations?  I could really use the money.  Also, my ancestors were persecuted for being Irish in New York.  I think I'm entitled to reparations for that as well. 

Was your great, great grandfather PAID by the federal government for the services he rendered to the Union Army? Then he doesn't warrant reparations...

Was the persecution suffered by the Irish in New York the result of an OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT POLICY, or just plain prejudice? In that case, why would that warrant reparations from the Federal Government?

Please try again...
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on March 17, 2006, 03:09:48 PM
My great great grandfather died fighting for the Union during the civil war, do you think I'm entitled to reparations?  I could really use the money.  Also, my ancestors were persecuted for being Irish in New York.  I think I'm entitled to reparations for that as well. 

Honestly, do you not see how utterly lame these analogies of yours are?? Sheesh.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: Wiseplato on March 17, 2006, 05:41:18 PM
I see your points and I agree.  I'm really in a financial bind and I'm trying to figure out a way I could get reparations.  What about my mormon ancestors who were persecuted by the Missouri state legislature who issued an extermination act which said it was legal to kick mormons off their land.  Do you think I'm entitled to reparations from the state of Missouri?  If you could be so kind to tell me if I have a case or not, I would appreciate it.  Please use italics to emphasize your point.  Thank you very much.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on March 17, 2006, 05:49:50 PM
I see your points and I agree.  I'm really in a financial bind and I'm trying to figure out a way I could get reparations.  What about my mormon ancestors who were persecuted by the Missouri state legislature who issued an extermination act which said it was legal to kick mormons off their land.  Do you think I'm entitled to reparations from the state of Missouri?  If you could be so kind to tell me if I have a case or not, I would appreciate it.  Please use italics to emphasize your point.  Thank you very much.

You are too young to be so bitter. Dead greeks are no substitute for common sense and decency.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: societatmalehabitus on March 17, 2006, 07:35:44 PM
My great great grandfather died fighting for the Union during the civil war, do you think I'm entitled to reparations?  I could really use the money.  Also, my ancestors were persecuted for being Irish in New York.  I think I'm entitled to reparations for that as well. 
Woe is me and unto a bitter world I see the hoplesseness of my own life.  Good lord, what a victim! 
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: Wiseplato on March 17, 2006, 07:41:09 PM
I think you calling me bitter can be interpretated in two ways:

a) That I'm bitter because of the way my mormon ancestors were treated.  Which it seems a little odd that someone who espouses the view that blacks should be given reparations because of past atrocities doesn't think that mormons should be given reparations for the past atrocities that were committed.

b) You are addressing my sarcastic undertone that blacks shouldn't be given reparations.

I feel that you called me bitter in the second sense, so I will discuss that interpretation.  If I am wrong please excuse the straw man.

I don't think the conditional statement that if you are young then you can't be bitter really holds. I think you called me bitter more because you feel that my bitterment is unwarranted.  I on the other hand believe that my "bitterment" is warranted.  But obviously this argument (as i have recently found out) has been beaten to death on LSD.  One more thing, I don't appreciate the vindictive nature of your posts.  I understand that this isn't a formal setting and you don't have to be professional, but when you make a good point I don't think you should add "sheesh" at the end.  It just comes off as very hurtful.  I'm a very sensitive guy.  I thought your point could stand up for itself, and doesn't need emotives.  Thanks for your comments though.  They help me to think and evaluate my position on certain topics.  If I am wrong I love to be shown otherwise, so that I don't walk in falsity.  
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on March 17, 2006, 07:53:36 PM
I think you calling me bitter can be interpretated in two ways:

a) That I'm bitter because of the way my mormon ancestors were treated.  Which it seems a little odd that someone who espouses the view that blacks should be given reparations because of past atrocities doesn't think that mormons should be given reparations for the past atrocities that were committed.

b) You are addressing my sarcastic undertone that blacks shouldn't be given reparations.

I feel that you called me bitter in the second sense, so I will discuss that interpretation.  If I am wrong please excuse the straw man.

I don't think the conditional statement that if you are young then you can't be bitter really holds. I think you called me bitter more because you feel that my bitterment is unwarranted.  I on the other hand believe that my "bitterment" is warranted.  But obviously this argument (as i have recently found out) has been beaten to death on LSD.  One more thing, I don't appreciate the vindictive nature of your posts.  I understand that this isn't a formal setting and you don't have to be professional, but when you make a good point I don't think you should add "sheesh" at the end.  It just comes off as very hurtful.  I'm a very sensitive guy.  I thought your point could stand up for itself, and doesn't need emotives.  Thanks for your comments though.  They help me to think and evaluate my position on certain topics.  If I am wrong I love to be shown otherwise, so that I don't walk in falsity.  

Well, if you're being sincere - and for what it's worth I think you are - I regret that I came off as condescending. I read your analogy as mocking African Americans via reparations and there's already been far far too much of that on this board and in life generally.

For what it's worth I myself am strongly against reparations, and maybe we can come back to that issue at some point.  :)
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: Wiseplato on March 17, 2006, 08:54:04 PM
I agree... Smiley face.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: _BP_ on March 18, 2006, 07:05:49 AM
yawnnnnn

Hey Redemption btw, I didn't realize that was you.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: kdlaw on March 21, 2006, 11:29:57 AM
Who decided to free the slaves?  Was that black people or white people? 
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on March 21, 2006, 11:39:22 AM
Are you back, troll? Feeling inadequate again?
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: Freak on March 21, 2006, 03:12:15 PM
He's not a troll; but he did not think that comment through well.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on March 21, 2006, 03:15:02 PM
Yes he is; check his back-posts.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: John Galt on March 21, 2006, 03:20:50 PM
Yes he is; check his back-posts.

Red. Off topic...is that also you in the avatar?
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: Freak on March 21, 2006, 03:25:09 PM
Yes he is; check his back-posts.

How do you think I know he's not a troll????
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on March 21, 2006, 03:27:22 PM
Yes he is; check his back-posts.

Red. Off topic...is that also you in the avatar?

Yes. With hair, back in the day.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on March 21, 2006, 03:29:43 PM
Yes he is; check his back-posts.

How do you think I know he's not a troll????

Unless you're him, Freak, it's pretty hard for me to figure how you'd know that this character uunder this name isn't a troll. That remains true even if it is Dunson who's posting under this name. Attention-whoring + stupidity = troll
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: Freak on March 21, 2006, 03:33:02 PM
This is my only addy jsyk & he asked questions about his LSAT and whatnot so he appeared legit to me. Anyway, enough about that his comment does show a lack of thought and further discussion isn't warrented.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on March 21, 2006, 03:35:06 PM
Ok. I've run into him before too, that's all.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: societatmalehabitus on March 21, 2006, 05:06:36 PM
Any suggestions on how NOT to be a troll?  I'm finding that after my intial overzealous attempt to post, I'm becoming a little hesitant for fear of this word...what is its power?
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on March 21, 2006, 05:16:13 PM
How Not to Be a Troll, a Guide:

1. Be clear & have a reasoned argument, position or query

2. Contribute something of value in at least one other thread before saying something likely to arouse controversy off-topic

3. Don't overgeneralize

4. If it's a question you're asking, indicate that you're asking a question

5. Be reasonably polite, and don't start off your LSD career by attacking individuals personally

That's pretty much it.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: societatmalehabitus on March 21, 2006, 05:22:38 PM
How Not to Be a Troll, a Guide:

1. Be clear & have a reasoned argument, position or query

2. Contribute something of value in at least one other thread before saying something likely to arouse controversy off-topic

3. Don't overgeneralize

4. If it's a question you're asking, indicate that you're asking a question

5. Be reasonably polite, and don't start off your LSD career by attacking individuals personally

That's pretty much it.

I like the "reasonably".  This should be posted for all and written in tablet.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: kdlaw on March 22, 2006, 10:27:17 AM
Has anyone answered my question?
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on March 22, 2006, 10:45:21 AM
Has anyone answered my question?

Clown.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: kdlaw on March 22, 2006, 11:07:02 AM
You could answer the question. You are a fag.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: redemption on March 22, 2006, 11:09:05 AM
Sure I am, troll.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: George Jefferson˛ on March 22, 2006, 11:30:08 AM
You could answer the question. You are a fag.

God has the answer. Kill self.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: societatmalehabitus on March 22, 2006, 05:00:16 PM
You could answer the question. You are a fag.

God has the answer. Kill self.

You have the answer; empower self.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: kdlaw on March 23, 2006, 11:59:58 AM
The network is concerned about a lack of diversity.  Does anyone know what diversity is?

I could be wrong, but I think diversity was an old, old wooden ship used during the civil war.
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: Freak on March 23, 2006, 12:55:07 PM
Next time you're a slave try to free yourself...
Title: Re: What do African Americans want?
Post by: philibusters on May 09, 2006, 11:40:27 PM
I hear African Americans all of the time saying that white people dont wanna live around them and whites dont want this or that.  I have to say in all honesty that, in many parts of the country, black people are simply a plague to their community.  Look for the poor parts, its mostly black.  Look where the crime is, mostly black.  African Americans make up 13% of the population and what % of crime do you think that they commit?  Im not racist, I am well aware that there are degenerate white people too, I just want to live in an area where there are high class people.  These are just some thoughts.


Why do you want to live in a 'high class' area when you clearly have no class?  I get it . . . you want the experience of being a minority!!!!  Yes my dear, you are a racist. 

Going in a unrelated and possible ignornant and stereotypical direction, but yesterday or maybe earlier this morning when I was browsing the facebook I was looking through the photo album of one my highschool friends who was african american and I was like wow hes dresses nice, and then I look at the two other african americans I had on friends list and one of them was dressed nicely in all his pics (the third dude dressed like a slob like myself), but is this a trend...

edit I tried to post a pic of me in a tee-shirt and him in a cool looking red shirt and tie, but I couldn't figure out how to paste pics.