Law School Discussion

Applying to Law School => Law School Admissions => Topic started by: !! on October 30, 2005, 07:20:44 PM

Title: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: !! on October 30, 2005, 07:20:44 PM
It's pretty commonly thought that being gay doesn't get you a whole lot of "diversity points."  At best, it gives you an essay topic.  However, Cornell and UPenn specifically ask applicants if they're gay.  UPenn actually sends out special fee waivers for gays and lesbians.  So, these schools obviously care.  My question is... how much does it matter to an applicant?  Is this like the preference other minorities get, or is this more for applicants who are otherwise "on the fence"?
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: Vannabunny on October 30, 2005, 07:25:58 PM
Well, I can't say for any other school, but, from my aunt who works in IU admissions, they do tend to look favorably at gay applicants because it adds diversity, and Bloomington is known as being a gay-friendly area. The new tourism slogan is "visit gay bloomington" so it makes sense
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: John Galt on October 30, 2005, 07:50:42 PM
If asians don't get AA then gay people shouldn't either.

I think being gay is a pretty significant boost especially if you're open. To be able to do well academically and/or professionally while dealing with the negative social stigma of being gay shows character and strength
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: boyhoosier on October 30, 2005, 08:05:46 PM
what's to stop someone from lying about being gay if helps your chances?
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: !! on October 30, 2005, 08:08:35 PM
If asians don't get AA then gay people shouldn't either.

I'm not looking to start a debate.  I'm just looking for people's opionions on what the situation is.  If someone offers me an edge, I'm gonna take it.

However, for an interesting discussion on whether a minority's relative lack of success is a prerequisite for that minority's protection, check out this very interesting (and short) article from the New Yorker.  It's from 1992, yet it still hits the nail on the head.  It specifically addresses to what extent gays are a "minority."

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/scotts/bulgarians/gr-v-br.html
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: !! on October 30, 2005, 08:09:50 PM
what's to stop someone from lying about being gay if helps your chances?

The fact that your state bar will have your law school application on file forever is a pretty good deterrant.
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: skaiserbrown on October 30, 2005, 08:14:10 PM
what's to stop someone from lying about being gay if helps your chances?

The fact that your state bar will have your law school application on file forever is a pretty good deterrant.

and me hitting on you. yum ^_^
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: wstaffor on October 30, 2005, 08:14:47 PM
what's to stop someone from lying about being gay if helps your chances?

The fact that your state bar will have your law school application on file forever is a pretty good deterrant.

Not really. I could just claim I was gay at the time, but decided against it later on. Lesbians do this all the time.
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: skaiserbrown on October 30, 2005, 08:15:26 PM
what's to stop someone from lying about being gay if helps your chances?

The fact that your state bar will have your law school application on file forever is a pretty good deterrant.

Not really. I could just claim I was gay at the time, but decided against it later on. Lesbians do this all the time.

you don't know many gay people that well, do you?
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: wstaffor on October 30, 2005, 08:18:19 PM
what's to stop someone from lying about being gay if helps your chances?

The fact that your state bar will have your law school application on file forever is a pretty good deterrant.

Not really. I could just claim I was gay at the time, but decided against it later on. Lesbians do this all the time.

you don't know many gay people that well, do you?

I actually have quite a few gay friends. Obviously for many people it is a 'being born' thing, but I think for many others it is a shock value thing, especially girls. They'll do the gay thing for a few years and then get over it. So one could self identify as gay, and self indentify as straight a few years later and that wouldn't be totally weird.
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: !! on October 30, 2005, 08:21:30 PM
Not really. I could just claim I was gay at the time, but decided against it later on. Lesbians do this all the time.

Just because you had an encounter with your pool boy doesn't make you gay.   ;)

And hey, if lying is as easy free from consequence as you say it is, have you done it?  Why the hell not!
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: wstaffor on October 30, 2005, 08:23:00 PM
Not really. I could just claim I was gay at the time, but decided against it later on. Lesbians do this all the time.

Just because you had an encounter with your pool boy doesn't make you gay.   ;)

And hey, if lying is as easy free from consequence as you say it is, have you done it?  Why the hell not!

I never said I was going to do it. I just presented a scenario where someone could do it with no consequences.
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: skaiserbrown on October 30, 2005, 08:25:27 PM
what's to stop someone from lying about being gay if helps your chances?

The fact that your state bar will have your law school application on file forever is a pretty good deterrant.

Not really. I could just claim I was gay at the time, but decided against it later on. Lesbians do this all the time.

you don't know many gay people that well, do you?

I actually have quite a few gay friends. Obviously for many people it is a 'being born' thing, but I think for many others it is a shock value thing, especially girls. They'll do the gay thing for a few years and then get over it. So one could self identify as gay, and self indentify as straight a few years later and that wouldn't be totally weird.

ah. your initial comment seemed to imply something different.
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: !! on October 30, 2005, 08:25:34 PM
I never said I was going to do it. I just presented a scenario where someone could do it with no consequences.

I'm just saying that anyone who's interested in lying can go right ahead.  I don't give a *&^%.  But it will always be in the back of your mind that you lied to your law school... and to the Bar.
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: Vannabunny on October 30, 2005, 08:29:49 PM
Not really. I could just claim I was gay at the time, but decided against it later on. Lesbians do this all the time.

Just because you had an encounter with your pool boy doesn't make you gay.   ;)

And hey, if lying is as easy free from consequence as you say it is, have you done it?  Why the hell not!


This reminds of a movie quote between Antonio Banderas and Woody Harelson (the title of the movie escapes me):
"If you build a thousand bridges, and you suck one c**k, then you are a c**ksucker, not a bridge builder"

~I dont mean this offensivley at all. I just thought it was funny
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: !! on October 30, 2005, 08:32:16 PM
"If you build a thousand bridges, and you suck one c**k, then you are a c**ksucker, not a bridge builder"

I've definitely encountered this perspective many times before, but I'm not sure that many educated people subscribe to it.
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: Vannabunny on October 30, 2005, 08:34:00 PM
I am not one them, as my sister is gay, and she has always been, from birth. The whole "lie about it if you want" thing kind of ticked me off
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: !! on October 30, 2005, 08:36:55 PM
The whole "lie about it if you want" thing kind of ticked me off

I just said that because it fills me with pleasure knowing that some day, some a-hole is going to get what's coming to him for lying about being gay.  Lies like this have a way of... being discovered.

And also... I am gay. ;)
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: SkullTatt on October 30, 2005, 08:37:53 PM
"If you build a thousand bridges, and you suck one c**k, then you are a c**ksucker, not a bridge builder"

My question is, if you suck 1000 c*cks and build one bridge, are you a bridge builder? What if you suck 500 c*cks and build 500 bridges?
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: skaiserbrown on October 30, 2005, 08:38:54 PM
The whole "lie about it if you want" thing kind of ticked me off

I just said that because it fills me with pleasure knowing that some day, some a-hole is going to get what's coming to him for lying about being gay. 

And also... I am gay. ;)

i may earn a gay man a toaster one day, but alas, i am not gay.

the last girl i dated is a lesbian now, though!

"If you build a thousand bridges, and you suck one c**k, then you are a c**ksucker, not a bridge builder"

My question is, if you suck 1000 c*cks and build one bridge, are you a bridge builder?

only if you suck a really sloppy cock. accentuating the positive, and all.
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: !! on October 30, 2005, 08:39:07 PM
My question is, if you suck 1000 c*cks and build one bridge, are you a bridge builder?

Ah, but did you suck cock on the bridge?  ???
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: thescreed on October 30, 2005, 08:52:19 PM
The whole "lie about it if you want" thing kind of ticked me off

I just said that because it fills me with pleasure knowing that some day, some a-hole is going to get what's coming to him for lying about being gay.  Lies like this have a way of... being discovered.

And also... I am gay. ;)

Would it be a lie to say you're gay if you're married with children but you like to whack off to gay porn? Not exclusively, but, you know, not infrequently. How many points would that be worth?
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: !! on October 30, 2005, 08:54:55 PM
How many points would that be worth?

1.7
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: verbal on October 30, 2005, 09:03:38 PM
well now i want to write all my law schools and tell them im gay. ill just have to let them no not to tell the army as they might not be as happy about it.
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: SkullTatt on October 30, 2005, 09:11:42 PM
I think there should be different degrees of affirmative action based on the following checkboxes:

X - My Theta Chi frat bros are really hot, but I only have gay sex when drunk
X - I have sex w/guys but no making out
X - Totally gay, I am "The Sixth Queer Eye Guy"
X - Kelly Clarkson fan (male)
X - Bridge builder with a VERY big toolbox, if you know what I mean!
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: The Dread Pirate Roberts on October 31, 2005, 08:00:07 AM
I hate to say it because it's politically inconvenient, but I have to say that there does seem to me to be more fluidity about sexual orientation, especially for women, than many people claim.

But the thing is, even if change occurs over a lifetime, it doesn't mean that those changes are voluntary, and it doesn't mean that the person wasn't, say, genuinely bisexual for a period and now genuinely homosexual. without in any way wanting those changes to occur.

I hate it when people say racism is bad and homophobia is ok because you can change who you have sex with but you can't change your skin color.  Every time I hear that, I wonder if they think that if it were possible to change skin color, all non white people should choose to do so.
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: incognito on October 31, 2005, 08:25:16 AM
I hate to say it because it's politically inconvenient, but I have to say that there does seem to me to be more fluidity about sexual orientation, especially for women, than many people claim.

But the thing is, even if change occurs over a lifetime, it doesn't mean that those changes are voluntary, and it doesn't mean that the person wasn't, say, genuinely bisexual for a period and now genuinely homosexual. without in any way wanting those changes to occur.

I hate it when people say racism is bad and homophobia is ok because you can change who you have sex with but you can't change your skin color.  Every time I hear that, I wonder if they think that if it were possible to change skin color, all non white people should choose to do so.

Sugersh,  did you see that article in the NY Times a while about research studying pheromones and bisexuals.  Found that for bisexual men, they were only "turned on" (I forget how that was measured--but would like to know!) by either men or women, not both.  Bisexual women, however, did respond to both.  It was really interesting, and of course there are problems with the methodology--but it supports the idea (for men at least) that you are either gay, straight or lying.
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: The Dread Pirate Roberts on October 31, 2005, 08:35:57 AM
Sugersh,  did you see that article in the NY Times a while about research studying pheromones and bisexuals.  Found that for bisexual men, they were only "turned on" (I forget how that was measured--but would like to know!) by either men or women, not both.  Bisexual women, however, did respond to both.  It was really interesting, and of course there are problems with the methodology--but it supports the idea (for men at least) that you are either gay, straight or lying.

I did see that, and it was certainly interesting, but I tend to think that it is a bit oversimplified.  For one thing, I think I recall that it was all done in a short time period, so changes in orientation over time couldn't be captured if they exist.  For another, reactions porn and to actual sex can be different in a lot of ways.  And I also tend to think that "lying" is a strong word; if someone is very romantically or aesthetically attracted to a particular gender expression, but is only physically attracted to another gender expression, I don't think it would be right to say they were "lying" in saying they're bisexual.
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: !! on October 31, 2005, 08:37:12 AM
Botanist and Sugersh, would either of you care to offer your opinion on the topic of this thread?  We seem to be getting off track.  See the OP.
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: The Dread Pirate Roberts on October 31, 2005, 08:47:30 AM
Botanist and Sugersh, would either of you care to offer your opinion on the topic of this thread?  We seem to be getting off track.  See the OP.

I've give my opinion on this about thirty times in various threads.  Sorry about going off topic, I was just going with the flow of the conversation.

But for the record, I would imagine that law schools want to have a few queers in each class, but not enough that there's a significant advantage, because there are plenty of queers applying.  People can lie if they want, and I doubt there will be negative consequences, but there could be, and there's enough homophobia out there that not enough people would lie about it to make a difference.

And Penn's fee waiver is probably more because they want more applicants and know that us queers are easily flattered by specific attention (really I speak only for myself here), and less because they actually want more queers.
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: !! on October 31, 2005, 08:50:07 AM
I've give my opinion on this about thirty times in various threads.  Sorry about going off topic, I was just going with the flow of the conversation.

Sorry about making you repeat yourself... and I wasn't trying to reprimand you, just steer the conversation.   ;)
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: incognito on October 31, 2005, 09:01:35 AM
Sugersh,  did you see that article in the NY Times a while about research studying pheromones and bisexuals.  Found that for bisexual men, they were only "turned on" (I forget how that was measured--but would like to know!) by either men or women, not both.  Bisexual women, however, did respond to both.  It was really interesting, and of course there are problems with the methodology--but it supports the idea (for men at least) that you are either gay, straight or lying.

I did see that, and it was certainly interesting, but I tend to think that it is a bit oversimplified.  For one thing, I think I recall that it was all done in a short time period, so changes in orientation over time couldn't be captured if they exist.  For another, reactions porn and to actual sex can be different in a lot of ways.  And I also tend to think that "lying" is a strong word; if someone is very romantically or aesthetically attracted to a particular gender expression, but is only physically attracted to another gender expression, I don't think it would be right to say they were "lying" in saying they're bisexual.

Okay I did I little research into it and I was wrong about the pheromones--confusing two different studies.  The bisexuality study has quite a few flaws (nature of attraction et al.)  The researchers measured attraction by showing porn and using "penile attachments"  --shudder--

MI6,

I think... it depends (my stock answer)

I doubt that it comes down to a point system.  Instead, it has helped me to tell a story about my life.  I'm non-trad and in explaining why I am doing this, I have referenced coming out as a turning point.  Only in very few cases, though, would I think it might hurt you.

One of those cases though, Baylor, keeps sending me stuff even though I've checked gay on LSAC.  That I just don't understand.
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: heybrent on October 31, 2005, 09:37:31 AM
About Baylor:

I have a 3.8 and a 180 LSAT and I'm gay.  I got the Baylor DVD/Preferred Applicant/Dean's Fellowship app thingy.  I am thinking about sending in a free app along with a personal statement that goes something like "I am gay."  and that only and seeing what happens.  What do you guys think?
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: John Galt on October 31, 2005, 09:51:59 AM
About Baylor:

I have a 3.8 and a 180 LSAT and I'm gay.  I got the Baylor DVD/Preferred Applicant/Dean's Fellowship app thingy.  I am thinking about sending in a free app along with a personal statement that goes something like "I am gay."  and that only and seeing what happens.  What do you guys think?

I think its stupid. Not only will baylor reject you, they will call every other school you apply to up and then they'll reject you.


If this is a joke, disregard the above.
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: The Dread Pirate Roberts on October 31, 2005, 09:55:38 AM
About Baylor:

I have a 3.8 and a 180 LSAT and I'm gay.  I got the Baylor DVD/Preferred Applicant/Dean's Fellowship app thingy.  I am thinking about sending in a free app along with a personal statement that goes something like "I am gay."  and that only and seeing what happens.  What do you guys think?

I think its stupid. Not only will baylor reject you, they will call every other school you apply to up and then they'll reject you.


If this is a joke, disregard the above.

If the personal statement just says "I am gay.", then I'd agree with JG (well, I don't think Baylor would necessarily care enough to take the time to call every other school, and I'm not sure they other schools would care, but Baylor'd certainly reject you).  But if it's a personal statement about being gay, I can't imagine any other school would care, even if Baylor does reject you for it.
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: thescreed on October 31, 2005, 11:06:23 AM
About Baylor:

I have a 3.8 and a 180 LSAT and I'm gay.  I got the Baylor DVD/Preferred Applicant/Dean's Fellowship app thingy.  I am thinking about sending in a free app along with a personal statement that goes something like "I am gay."  and that only and seeing what happens.  What do you guys think?

I think they'd probably waitlist you pending your response to the query, "How gay are you?" Then you'd have to write a second PS that starts, "Well, I'm SO gay that . . ."
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: SkullTatt on October 31, 2005, 11:09:02 AM
I heard of one Baylor interview where a student claimed he was gay and they called him in and asked him to recite every line he could from a John Waters movie. I sh*t you not.

He got in, but it was very close. If he had not memorized three of Queen Carlotta's speeches from Desperate Living, he would have been so dinged...
Title: Re: Gay Affirmative Action?
Post by: heybrent on October 31, 2005, 11:10:36 AM
About Baylor:

I have a 3.8 and a 180 LSAT and I'm gay.  I got the Baylor DVD/Preferred Applicant/Dean's Fellowship app thingy.  I am thinking about sending in a free app along with a personal statement that goes something like "I am gay."  and that only and seeing what happens.  What do you guys think?

I think its stupid. Not only will baylor reject you, they will call every other school you apply to up and then they'll reject you.


If this is a joke, disregard the above.

The PS was a joke, but the sentiment and the stats weren't.  I don't think that Baylor could foul up everything else for me, though.  What is Harvard going to say:  "well, if he offended you, Baylor, we'll be sure to reject him." My PS is not about being gay, although the statement and my resume both make it clear that I am.  If it didn't cost $12 to apply, I would try it, and see how it turns out.  I know someone, by the way, who had his scholarship to Baylor yanked when they found out he was gay, so this isn't just farfetched speculation.