Law School Discussion

Specific Groups => Minority and Non-Traditional Law Students => Topic started by: jeb240 on October 18, 2005, 12:14:19 PM

Title: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: jeb240 on October 18, 2005, 12:14:19 PM
Alright... so I've been waiting for my score to do this list... but always wanting to be different and a little spicy, I decided to make the following list...

At what point LSAT-score wise should I apply to more than the 18 schools listed below, anyone of which is conceivably as much as safety as it is a target as it is a reach (with the exception of the high triumverate which are only barely targets if you have a 4.0/180 supercombo) -- this list is in order of preference, as, for the explanation cited earlier, I could not begin to list in order of reach/target/safety:

Yale
UChicago
Berkeley
UPenn
Vanderbilt
Stanford
Northwestern
UWisc
Harvard
Cornell
NYU
Columbia
UMich
Boston U.
USC
Fordham
Brooklyn
Cardozo

Soft factors: URM (black male), gay, work 35-40hrs/wk when in school, 3.02 Cum GPA with an addendum citing depression and pointing out that all of last year my GPA was a 3.7 ave, interesting (?) PS, strong LORs, poor (disadvantaged?), Ivy League ugrad, "non-trad" in that I took a 2yr break between sophomore and junior years, and interesting (?) Yale essay.

I have a number of T2 and a few T3 schools in the LSAC queue, not filled out but still at the ready, should my score not be where I hope it will be... but, really, what score is the lowest you guys think I should achieve before I have to start cranking out more apps?  Or do you already think I should start cranking out more apps?
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: 4ssh0l3 on October 18, 2005, 12:20:11 PM
You are a gay black man from an IVY.  Just apply to HYS and STFU.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: Lucky77 on October 18, 2005, 12:23:18 PM
It sucks that your GPA is so low, because, obviously, you are smarter than that (this shows as you did dramatically better after a 2 years break).

Anyways, I can only speak for myself, but if I were you and had your stats, I would start crackin out a few more apps if my score was a 160 or below. The schools? I would say Boston College, Boston University, George Washington, Georgetown (Part-time), American, Santa Clara, etc etc.

I think you still will get into some of the schools you listed with a 160 or below (well, within reason), but I know you are concerned about scholarship chances. This is just my humble advice.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: jeb240 on October 18, 2005, 12:32:02 PM
It sucks that your GPA is so low, because, obviously, you are smarter than that (this shows as you did dramatically better after a 2 years break).

Anyways, I can only speak for myself, but if I were you and had your stats, I would start crackin out a few more apps if my score was a 160 or below. The schools? I would say Boston College, Boston University, George Washington, Georgetown (Part-time), American, Santa Clara, etc etc.

I think you still will get into some of the schools you listed with a 160 or below (well, within reason), but I know you are concerned about scholarship chances. This is just my humble advice.

I hope what I am about to say will neither jinx me nor offend anyone, but if I managed to wrangle a sub-160 score I think I'd be too dumbfounded to get out any more apps... you know, being in a coma kind of makes clicking the mouse and typing essays a little more difficult.

And I'm already applying to BU  :D and all D.C. schools are out per an earlier thread that shall not be revisited  :o so I suppose that leaves BC and Santa Clara.  BC is indeed one of the schools in the queue -- maybe I'll look up Santa Clara.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: Lucky77 on October 18, 2005, 12:35:14 PM
I understand - if I ended up with a sub-160 score on my LSAT, I don't know what I would have done. Again not to offend anyone, but I studies my butt off for 6 months, and just ah.

But for you, a sub-160 (which I DOUBT entirely that you will get) is not the end of the world. I would bet with a 159, or 158 even, you'd get into BC and BU with scholarship money even. Those are awesome schools.

You crack 165 (or maybe even lower) and I'll see you at a T14!
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: jeb240 on October 18, 2005, 12:35:51 PM
You are a gay black man from an IVY.  Just apply to HYS and STFU.

Hmm... this merits a response.  Mine might not be the best, so I apologize:

I'm sorry that either your skin is not as dark as mine or that you do not go to an Ivy League school or both, as I do not imagine that neither is the case.  Perhaps in your next life, should you not be approaching that nihilistic end of ultimate ultimateness, you shall be more fortunate.  Better luck next time, slugger.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: 4ssh0l3 on October 18, 2005, 12:37:25 PM
I understand - if I ended up with a sub-160 score on my LSAT, I don't know what I would have done. Again not to offend anyone, but I studies my butt off for 6 months, and just ah.

But for you, a sub-160 (which I DOUBT entirely that you will get) is not the end of the world. I would bet with a 159, or 158 even, you'd get into BC and BU with scholarship money even. Those are awesome schools.

You crack 165 (or maybe even lower) and I'll see you at a T14!

Why are you afraid of offending someone who cannot break a 160?  TTT's are great schools!  It doesn't matter where you went after your first job. 
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: The Dread Pirate Roberts on October 18, 2005, 12:39:03 PM
I think you're going to be fine.  If you actually did much worse than you expect, sure, send out a few more apps to be extra safe, but otherwise I think you're good to go with your list.

You're so unique that it's very hard to predict the result at any particular school (only because any given school may be being anal retentive about keeping up their official UG GPA scores).  I think you're going to clean up overall, but at any given school the result is a little unpredictable if your LSAT ends up below 165 or so.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: frankfurt on October 18, 2005, 12:39:55 PM
Listen to 4ssh0l3. As a black applicant from an Ivy undergrad, a 155 would easily get you into a few top 25. If you break 160, you would be a fool to apply anywhere outside the T14.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: Lucky77 on October 18, 2005, 12:40:13 PM
Jason,

I agree he was rude.. but you gotta admit, being black, gay, and from an Ivy certainly helps your cause. But, it does not write your ticket in, either.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: John Galt on October 18, 2005, 12:40:42 PM
Get your 170, clean up all the schools on your list, and call it a day.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: frankfurt on October 18, 2005, 12:43:22 PM
I see the John Galt guy posting all the time. He is in total denial about the benefits of being black. If I had a dime for every URM 155 LSAT scorer on LSN applying to T14.....
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: Lucky77 on October 18, 2005, 12:44:55 PM
Ironically, John has an amazing chance to get into every law school in the country (HYS included) even if he does not include his race on his application.

So, while he may benefit from being black, he hardly needs that extra push.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: The Dread Pirate Roberts on October 18, 2005, 12:50:18 PM
He is in total denial about the benefits of being black.

Not as much as most of the posters here are in total denial of the benefits of being white.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: RockyMarciano on October 18, 2005, 12:52:06 PM
Ironically, John has an amazing chance to get into every law school in the country (HYS included) even if he does not include his race on his application.

So, while he may benefit from being black, he hardly needs that extra push.

I second this.

Also, Jason you will do fine man. You will be in the top 160's and get into a T-10 school. Best of luck any ways.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: frankfurt on October 18, 2005, 12:52:30 PM
Jon Galt, Towllie, and Jason 240 have a combined 3 million posts on this website. ANYTIME the issue of AA comes up, these three African Americans immediately reject the notion that AA is a humongous helper. Have any of you ever wondered why a white applicant with a 158 would never DREAM of applying to a t14? Probably because you are delusional and think of yourselves as so "unique" because you are a minority. 158/White applying to NYU, “Are you nuts!” 158/Black applying to NYU, “Oh great, you are probably a really interesting candidate.”
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: 4ssh0l3 on October 18, 2005, 12:54:25 PM
You are a gay black man from an IVY.  Just apply to HYS and STFU.

Hmm... this merits a response.  Mine might not be the best, so I apologize:

I'm sorry that either your skin is not as dark as mine or that you do not go to an Ivy League school or both, as I do not imagine that neither is the case.  Perhaps in your next life, should you not be approaching that nihilistic end of ultimate ultimateness, you shall be more fortunate.  Better luck next time, slugger.

Your insecurities are apparent every time you question whether or not you will get into a certain set of schools.  You should be happy AA has been created for your benefit.

In summation, STFU and be grateful. 

Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: jeb240 on October 18, 2005, 12:56:15 PM
I do not think John Galt is in denial.

I think he's being reasonably humble about his chances.

And I'd like to think that being black and coming from an IVY is really the "icing on the cake" of the application I've put together for these schools, but I do realize that at least the first of those two characteristics constitutes more than merely icing for admissions purposes.

But, it's such a crap shoot already and my GPA isn't hot-bikini-clad-fun-in-the-sun for any school.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: bloomich on October 18, 2005, 12:56:47 PM
He is in total denial about the benefits of being black.

Not as much as most of the posters here are in total denial of the benefits of being white.

Or just most people, in general.  This is exactly the point.  Excellent response.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: 4ssh0l3 on October 18, 2005, 12:58:20 PM
I do not think John Galt is in denial.

I think he's being reasonably humble about his chances.

And I'd like to think that being black and coming from an IVY is really the "icing on the cake" of the application I've put together for these schools, but I do realize that at least the first of those two characteristics constitutes more than merely icing for admissions purposes.

But, it's such a crap shoot already and my GPA isn't hot-bikini-clad-fun-in-the-sun for any school.

Your gpa is more than likley a result of your socioeconomic situation, which is in part due to the race of your parents. 

That is on Columbia's 4.5 scale, correct?  It is bad, I agree, but your other factors make up for it 100x.


For you and John Galt, a score in the 160s and HYS is not a crapshoot. 
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: 4ssh0l3 on October 18, 2005, 12:59:28 PM
He is in total denial about the benefits of being black.

Not as much as most of the posters here are in total denial of the benefits of being white.

Or just most people, in general.  This is exactly the point.  Excellent response.

Of course being white is easier.  Being born rich is easier too. 

I don't deny that I've had many benefits others have no chance at realizing. 
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: frankfurt on October 18, 2005, 12:59:45 PM
That was a terrible response. There is nothing built into the review process of law school applications that favors whites as a race. Totally stupid comparison. PS: Black and Ivy DOES seal the deal. If you score over 155, there are only a hand full of you out there.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: The Dread Pirate Roberts on October 18, 2005, 01:02:37 PM
That was a terrible response. There is nothing built into the review process of law school applications that favors whites as a race.

Um, but there is something (it's called institutionalized racism) that's built into pretty much everything that comes before it.

C'mon.  Do you really think white people are never the beneficiaries of racism?  It's (mostly) subtler than Jim Crow, but racism is still alive and well.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: 4ssh0l3 on October 18, 2005, 01:02:46 PM
PS: Black and Ivy DOES seal the deal. If you score over 155, there are only a hand full of you out there.

This is, of course, the credited response to the OP.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: frankfurt on October 18, 2005, 01:03:53 PM
sugeresh- you are right, but that is not what we are talking about.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: The Dread Pirate Roberts on October 18, 2005, 01:05:44 PM
sugeresh- you are right, but that is not what we are talking about.

Not directly, but it's always irritating to see how resentful many people seem about AA.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: jeb240 on October 18, 2005, 01:06:06 PM
Jon Galt, Towllie, and Jason 240 have a combined 3 million posts on this website. ANYTIME the issue of AA comes up, these three African Americans immediately reject the notion that AA is a humongous helper. Have any of you ever wondered why a white applicant with a 158 would never DREAM of applying to a t14? Probably because you are delusional and think of yourselves as so "unique" because you are a minority. 158/White applying to NYU, “Are you nuts!” 158/Black applying to NYU, “Oh great, you are probably a really interesting candidate.”

Wow, 3 million posts?  Damn.  Wait, Towlie is black?  I had no idea!

Uhm... it's not that I discount the benefits of AA.  I understand, accept (although not happily), and enjoy (again, not happily) the benefits of AA.  But in my head I know so many impressive and far more accomplished URMs that it doesn't occur to me that there aren't that many of "us," if I can include myself with them.  You say to me that there aren't that many and so we are all bound for getting into top schools, and I say that, yeah, the boost from and novelty of being AA will be of great use to me/us, but, again, in my head there are far too many of us for us ALL to get seats at the top schools, even if I stand a greater chance of receiving a seat at a top school than a non-URM with my numbers.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: frankfurt on October 18, 2005, 01:08:28 PM
The Supreme Court case that okayed AA as a factor in admissions decision noted that there were less than 30 blacks nationwide who scored over 165 and had over a 3.5 GPA in the 2003 Application cycle. You do the math.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: frankfurt on October 18, 2005, 01:09:07 PM
I'm not dissing you Jason, I'm telling you that you will have amazing opportunities
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: 4ssh0l3 on October 18, 2005, 01:09:25 PM
Jon Galt, Towllie, and Jason 240 have a combined 3 million posts on this website. ANYTIME the issue of AA comes up, these three African Americans immediately reject the notion that AA is a humongous helper. Have any of you ever wondered why a white applicant with a 158 would never DREAM of applying to a t14? Probably because you are delusional and think of yourselves as so "unique" because you are a minority. 158/White applying to NYU, “Are you nuts!” 158/Black applying to NYU, “Oh great, you are probably a really interesting candidate.”

Wow, 3 million posts?  Damn.  Wait, Towlie is black?  I had no idea!

Uhm... it's not that I discount the benefits of AA.  I understand, accept (although not happily), and enjoy (again, not happily) the benefits of AA.  But in my head I know so many impressive and far more accomplished URMs that it doesn't occur to me that there aren't that many of "us," if I can include myself with them.  You say to me that there aren't that many and so we are all bound for getting into top schools, and I say that, yeah, the boost from and novelty of being AA will be of great use to me/us, but, again, in my head there are far too many of us for us ALL to get seats at the top schools, even if I stand a greater chance of receiving a seat at a top school than a non-URM with my numbers.

There are enough seats.  You and all your homies can go to HYSCCN and fill out the bottom of the curve (which many of you won't, you are smart after all) and get v20 firm offers with *&^% grades. 
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: SkullTatt on October 18, 2005, 01:16:18 PM
I think with such a large number of schools you are already doing what you need to be doing. I would only apply to more if you score in the 150's.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: chidochido on October 18, 2005, 01:16:36 PM
Jon Galt, Towllie, and Jason 240 have a combined 3 million posts on this website. ANYTIME the issue of AA comes up, these three African Americans immediately reject the notion that AA is a humongous helper. Have any of you ever wondered why a white applicant with a 158 would never DREAM of applying to a t14? Probably because you are delusional and think of yourselves as so "unique" because you are a minority. 158/White applying to NYU, “Are you nuts!” 158/Black applying to NYU, “Oh great, you are probably a really interesting candidate.”

Wow, 3 million posts?  Damn.  Wait, Towlie is black?  I had no idea!

Uhm... it's not that I discount the benefits of AA.  I understand, accept (although not happily), and enjoy (again, not happily) the benefits of AA.  But in my head I know so many impressive and far more accomplished URMs that it doesn't occur to me that there aren't that many of "us," if I can include myself with them.  You say to me that there aren't that many and so we are all bound for getting into top schools, and I say that, yeah, the boost from and novelty of being AA will be of great use to me/us, but, again, in my head there are far too many of us for us ALL to get seats at the top schools, even if I stand a greater chance of receiving a seat at a top school than a non-URM with my numbers.

There are enough seats.  You and all your homies can go to HYSCCN and fill out the bottom of the curve (which many of you won't, you are smart after all) and get v20 firm offers with sh*t grades. 

Assuming you are right, which is already a stretch...If you are so rich and so white, why do you even give a F*CK?
Let the man do his thing and leave him alone. If there is anyone wearing a green badge of envy and insecurity in here it's you, big boy.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: jeb240 on October 18, 2005, 01:17:01 PM
Well, one, I did not know that 30 figure and I'm completely taken aback by it.  Maybe we just don't go into law, because I know at least 30 black and hispanic kids with GPAs above 3.5 who I imagine would do better than 160 on the LSAT.

In any event, thank you frankfurt and 4ss for the (back-handed?) vote of confidence, for me and my "homies."

So, to the post at hand, you two are agreed that if I get lower than 155 I should apply to more schools?
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: jeb240 on October 18, 2005, 01:18:37 PM
I think with such a large number of schools you are already doing what you need to be doing. I would only apply to more if you score in the 150's.

The splitter mantra, "Wider is better."

EDIT: It's so funny... my posts either get no responses (the ones that are poor attempts at being humorous) or they explode into many multiple pages.  And all I really wanted to know was a number, and I guess low 150s or lower is the consensus?

EDIT: God, I hope the consensus is right.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: 4ssh0l3 on October 18, 2005, 01:19:55 PM
Jon Galt, Towllie, and Jason 240 have a combined 3 million posts on this website. ANYTIME the issue of AA comes up, these three African Americans immediately reject the notion that AA is a humongous helper. Have any of you ever wondered why a white applicant with a 158 would never DREAM of applying to a t14? Probably because you are delusional and think of yourselves as so "unique" because you are a minority. 158/White applying to NYU, “Are you nuts!” 158/Black applying to NYU, “Oh great, you are probably a really interesting candidate.”

Wow, 3 million posts?  Damn.  Wait, Towlie is black?  I had no idea!

Uhm... it's not that I discount the benefits of AA.  I understand, accept (although not happily), and enjoy (again, not happily) the benefits of AA.  But in my head I know so many impressive and far more accomplished URMs that it doesn't occur to me that there aren't that many of "us," if I can include myself with them.  You say to me that there aren't that many and so we are all bound for getting into top schools, and I say that, yeah, the boost from and novelty of being AA will be of great use to me/us, but, again, in my head there are far too many of us for us ALL to get seats at the top schools, even if I stand a greater chance of receiving a seat at a top school than a non-URM with my numbers.

There are enough seats.  You and all your homies can go to HYSCCN and fill out the bottom of the curve (which many of you won't, you are smart after all) and get v20 firm offers with sh*t grades. 

Assuming you are right, which is already a stretch...If you are so rich and so white, why do you even give a F*CK?
Let the man do his thing and leave him alone. If there is anyone wearing a green badge of envy and insecurity in here it's you, big boy.

I am right.  I don't give a @#!*.  It won't effect me.  It is simply ungrateful. 

Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: Ocean Blue on October 18, 2005, 01:23:36 PM
You are a gay black man from an IVY.  Just apply to HYS and STFU.


From an "IVY".  4ssh0l3 is clearly old school.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: frankfurt on October 18, 2005, 01:26:16 PM
Don't let Jon Galt suck you into believing that you need such a high LSAT, that's his rationalization mechanism to convince himself that minorities are held to a roughly similar standard. He is embarrassed that he is so qualified, yet is lumped into the negative generalized talks about minority applicants that do not apply to him. He is an anomaly, literally one in a million. Best advice you will ever get: You are a lock for SOME first tier school if you score over 150. I would apply to maybe 1 or at most 3 tier two schools unless you score sub 150. If you are anything over 155, with your profile, you will be wasting your money applying to tier 2. If you spoke to any profession law school counselor, they would tell you the same thing. You should have great confidence that many top school will be salivating over you.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: 4ssh0l3 on October 18, 2005, 01:31:53 PM
You are a gay black man from an IVY.  Just apply to HYS and STFU.


From an "IVY".  4ssh0l3 is clearly old school.

I am indeed old school.  (Just returned from a hiatus.)

Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: 4ssh0l3 on October 18, 2005, 01:32:11 PM
Don't let Jon Galt suck you into believing that you need such a high LSAT, that's his rationalization mechanism to convince himself that minorities are held to a roughly similar standard. He is embarrassed that he is so qualified, yet is lumped into the negative generalized talks about minority applicants that do not apply to him. He is an anomaly, literally one in a million. Best advice you will ever get: You are a lock for SOME first tier school if you score over 150. I would apply to maybe 1 or at most 3 tier two schools unless you score sub 150. If you are anything over 155, with your profile, you will be wasting your money applying to tier 2. If you spoke to any profession law school counselor, they would tell you the same thing. You should have great confidence that many top school will be salivating over you.

Wise you are.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: SkullTatt on October 18, 2005, 01:33:36 PM
EDIT: God, I hope the consensus is right.

What have you been scoring on practice tests?
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: jeb240 on October 18, 2005, 01:35:36 PM
Don't let Jon Galt suck you into believing that you need such a high LSAT, that's his rationalization mechanism to convince himself that minorities are held to a roughly similar standard. He is embarrassed that he is so qualified, yet is lumped into the negative generalized talks about minority applicants that do not apply to him. He is an anomaly, literally one in a million. Best advice you will ever get: You are a lock for SOME first tier school if you score over 150. I would apply to maybe 1 or at most 3 tier two schools unless you score sub 150. If you are anything over 155, with your profile, you will be wasting your money applying to tier 2. If you spoke to any profession law school counselor, they would tell you the same thing. You should have great confidence that many top school will be salivating over you.

What you say may be true, but I'd like to refrain from putting thoughts in John Galt's head (I know I already did and I shouldn't have).  He lurks and spies on this board as much as any of us do, so he can hardly missed that he's come up more than a few times.  The fact that he's said nothing, I imagine, is indicative of something.

And John Galt has not affected my thoughts, in the least.  While the pragmatic side of me would hardly turn down getting into a top school or begrudge any one for getting into a school with less than ideal numbers because he fits into other criteria, the prideful side of me would rather think that I have a shot at these schools because I merit it, my GPA notwithstanding ( ;)). And I stand by my conviction that no one, no matter how black or poor or disadvantaged he may be, can get into a school that he doesn't deserve to attend (with the exception of legacies, who obviously aren't who we're talking about).
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: jeb240 on October 18, 2005, 01:36:37 PM
EDIT: God, I hope the consensus is right.

What have you been scoring on practice tests?

157-170.  Like Bilbo Baggins, there and back again. Hence the uncertainty of where I'll land.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: 4ssh0l3 on October 18, 2005, 01:38:34 PM
Don't let Jon Galt suck you into believing that you need such a high LSAT, that's his rationalization mechanism to convince himself that minorities are held to a roughly similar standard. He is embarrassed that he is so qualified, yet is lumped into the negative generalized talks about minority applicants that do not apply to him. He is an anomaly, literally one in a million. Best advice you will ever get: You are a lock for SOME first tier school if you score over 150. I would apply to maybe 1 or at most 3 tier two schools unless you score sub 150. If you are anything over 155, with your profile, you will be wasting your money applying to tier 2. If you spoke to any profession law school counselor, they would tell you the same thing. You should have great confidence that many top school will be salivating over you.

What you say may be true, but I'd like to refrain from putting thoughts in John Galt's head (I know I already did and I shouldn't have).  He lurks and spies on this board as much as any of us do, so he can hardly missed that he's come up more than a few times.  The fact that he's said nothing, I imagine, is indicative of something.

And John Galt has not affected my thoughts, in the least.  While the pragmatic side of me would hardly turn down getting into a top school or begrudge any one for getting into a school with less than ideal numbers because he fits into other criteria, the prideful side of me would rather think that I have a shot at these schools because I merit it, my GPA notwithstanding ( ;)). And I stand by my conviction that no one, no matter how black or poor or disadvantaged he may be, can get into a school that he doesn't deserve to attend (with the exception of legacies, who obviously aren't who we're talking about).

Just to be clear, you do deserve it. I am an 4ssh0l3 but I am not racist.  You are being judged as deserving compared to a more relevant group, namely your race. 

I take no offense at the legacy comment.  I didn't even study for the LSAT because I know I am an autoadmit. 
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: FossilJ on October 18, 2005, 01:42:28 PM


Assuming you are right, which is already a stretch...If you are so rich and so white, why do you even give a F*CK?
Let the man do his thing and leave him alone. If there is anyone wearing a green badge of envy and insecurity in here it's you, big boy.

It won't effect me. [sic]   


Irony, anyone?
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: jeb240 on October 18, 2005, 01:43:23 PM
I did not know you were a legacy anywhere, nor do I know anything about you other than your SN.  That was just a comment to cover my argument bases.

And I appreciate your candor.  And you can be racist (I know you're not, JSIA).  Personally, I'd rather it didn't exist, but it's not my job to tell people what they can and cannot believe.  So long as they realize it's irrational and that it should not be permitted to impact their judgments when it comes to non-personal things such as legal proceedings and employment and things like that.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: 4ssh0l3 on October 18, 2005, 01:45:41 PM


Assuming you are right, which is already a stretch...If you are so rich and so white, why do you even give a F*CK?
Let the man do his thing and leave him alone. If there is anyone wearing a green badge of envy and insecurity in here it's you, big boy.

It won't effect me. [sic]   


Irony, anyone?

Should that be affect?  I paused but only use that version for influence.  I think I am right, but don't care.  Someone with a brain please decide.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: 4ssh0l3 on October 18, 2005, 01:48:18 PM
I did not know you were a legacy anywhere, nor do I know anything about you other than your SN.  That was just a comment to cover my argument bases.

And I appreciate your candor.  And you can be racist (I know you're not, JSIA).  Personally, I'd rather it didn't exist, but it's not my job to tell people what they can and cannot believe.  So long as they realize it's irrational and that it should not be permitted to impact their judgments when it comes to non-personal things such as legal proceedings and employment and things like that.

I know you didn't know I was a HY legacy.  I just felt like I could respond appropriately.

Racism is a serious problem.  I only hate stupid people and poor people who are truly leeches (not all poors).  Sometimes these overlap with a certain race more than others, which I think causes much of the racism in this current day and age. 
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: The Dread Pirate Roberts on October 18, 2005, 01:49:46 PM
It won't effect me. [sic]   

Irony, anyone?

Should that be affect?  I paused but only use that version for influence.  I think I am right, but don't care.  Someone with a brain please decide.

Effect works as a verb only in statements like "to effect a significant change," in the sense of "create" or "cause."  Affect would be correct here.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: 4ssh0l3 on October 18, 2005, 01:52:12 PM
It won't effect me. [sic]   

Irony, anyone?

Should that be affect?  I paused but only use that version for influence.  I think I am right, but don't care.  Someone with a brain please decide.

Effect works as a verb only in statements like "to effect a significant change," in the sense of "create" or "cause."  Affect would be correct here.

I guess my instinct was correct.  Thank you.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: 4ssh0l3 on October 18, 2005, 01:59:07 PM
It won't effect me. [sic]   

Irony, anyone?

Should that be affect?  I paused but only use that version for influence.  I think I am right, but don't care.  Someone with a brain please decide.

Effect works as a verb only in statements like "to effect a significant change," in the sense of "create" or "cause."  Affect would be correct here.

Hence the irony in context of the argument.

I don't see the irony.  Please s-p-e-l-l it out for me.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: steve112sms on October 18, 2005, 02:01:19 PM
Back to the topic: It seems as though you'll be fine. Even though your practice tests had a high degree of variability, it seems like you'll likely be somewhere in the 160's, which should be good enough for a good school. That said, I wouldn't get too confident about the top few, especially HYS since I'm doubtful even a gay black man from an Ivy can get in with anything less than high 160's considering your GPA, despite the improvement. John Galt has nothing to worry about, really, but his numbers are much better. Though, despite what was said earlier in this thread, he wouldn't have an "amazing" chance at HYS were it not for his being black. He'd have an outside shot, but even that is pretty impressive, so I don't mean to take away from his accomplishments.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: Lucky77 on October 18, 2005, 02:07:35 PM
Jon Galt, Towllie, and Jason 240 have a combined 3 million posts on this website. ANYTIME the issue of AA comes up, these three African Americans immediately reject the notion that AA is a humongous helper. Have any of you ever wondered why a white applicant with a 158 would never DREAM of applying to a t14? Probably because you are delusional and think of yourselves as so "unique" because you are a minority. 158/White applying to NYU, “Are you nuts!” 158/Black applying to NYU, “Oh great, you are probably a really interesting candidate.”


LMAO omg. HAHAHAHAHA.

First off, I am not black, I am white. Second off, I have a few posts in the Affirmative Action is bullsh*t thread, in which I outright admit AA is a huge helper.

Third, a large part of my personal statement for law schools was dedicated to changing our affirmative action laws because I find them racist and feel they would be more worthwhile if they focused on economics (I happen to be poor) instead of race.

Take your head out of your ass.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: jeb240 on October 18, 2005, 02:12:23 PM
Back to the topic: It seems as though you'll be fine. Even though your practice tests had a high degree of variability, it seems like you'll likely be somewhere in the 160's, which should be good enough for a good school. That said, I wouldn't get too confident about the top few, especially HYS since I'm doubtful even a gay black man from an Ivy can get in with anything less than high 160's considering your GPA, despite the improvement. John Galt has nothing to worry about, really, but his numbers are much better. Though, despite what was said earlier in this thread, he wouldn't have an "amazing" chance at HYS were it not for his being black. He'd have an outside shot, but even that is pretty impressive, so I don't mean to take away from his accomplishments.

Right on.

And I'm not too confident about anything outside of my baking prowess.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: John Galt on October 18, 2005, 03:01:38 PM
Jason:

I don't really want to respond to much of the stuff on this thread, but I don't want to give you (or anyone else) the impression that my silence is an indication of agreement with the things being said. My belief is that if the adcomms let you in, you deserve to be in the class. Period.

Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: Lucky77 on October 18, 2005, 03:19:26 PM
Jason:

I don't really want to respond to much of the stuff on this thread, but I don't want to give you (or anyone else) the impression that my silence is an indication of agreement with the things being said. My belief is that if the adcomms let you in, you deserve to be in the class. Period.



Yes, it is true, if you get in, they want you to attend. However, would they still want you to attend if they weren't legally recquired to admit a certain percentage of whatever ethnic group you belonged to? If the answer is no, then do you really "deserve" to be in the class? I don't think so. If the answer is yes, then I say you do. And this has nothing to do with numbers or anything.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: John Galt on October 18, 2005, 03:22:16 PM
Jason:

I don't really want to respond to much of the stuff on this thread, but I don't want to give you (or anyone else) the impression that my silence is an indication of agreement with the things being said. My belief is that if the adcomms let you in, you deserve to be in the class. Period.



Yes, it is true, if you get in, they want you to attend. However, would they still want you to attend if they weren't legally recquired to admit a certain percentage of whatever ethnic group you belonged to? If the answer is no, then do you really "deserve" to be in the class? I don't think so. If the answer is yes, then I say you do. And this has nothing to do with numbers or anything.

quotas are illegal for public universities, and private universities don't have any legal requirement at all.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: jeb240 on October 18, 2005, 03:25:20 PM
John Galt,

I meant that your silence only indicated a choice not to respond, not an acquiescence to what has been said, and so people should not assume your opinions or thoughts.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: steve112sms on October 18, 2005, 03:36:28 PM
quotas are illegal for public universities, and private universities don't have any legal requirement at all.

This is correct as per Regents of University of California V. Bakke. Also found to be unconstitutional was University of Michigan's assignment of a specific amount of points based on race because it was too overt. Gratz v. Bollinger, I think. Affirmative action has only been found to be constitutional if race is merely a consideration, not given an automatic point value but rather given a vague weight alongside other factors like personal statements. I can't wait for the arguments sure to ensue over this when we take Con Law in law school. Supposedly we used the same book most law schools do for our undergrad version of the class.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: sillymelon on October 18, 2005, 04:42:39 PM
Wow, so much drama here! I openly admit that I am against AA and believe that everyone should get in based on their abilities regardless of skin color.  Unfortunately, the world doesn't work like that...life is unfair, we don't decide how we want to be born...whether it's into a rich white or black family, a poor white or black family, as sons and daughters of immigrants, etc.  So I figure just deal with the cards life dealt you and stop comparing yourself to other people.  From being on this board, I think Jason and John Galt are great people.  Sorry for giving such a hackneyed lecture.  ;)
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: Belisarius on October 18, 2005, 05:02:39 PM
Quote
Soft factors: URM (black male), gay, work 35-40hrs/wk when in school, 3.02 Cum GPA with an addendum citing depression and pointing out that all of last year my GPA was a 3.7 ave, interesting (?) PS, strong LORs, poor (disadvantaged?), Ivy League ugrad, "non-trad" in that I took a 2yr break between sophomore and junior years, and interesting (?) Yale essay.

Good luck man, I'll be rooting for you. Other than the URM, gay, working in school, and Ivy league bit we're in the same boat.

That is to say, low cum, 2 years off for mental health reasons, high GPA on return (anticipated in my case).... and expecting goodish scores and having no clue where to apply....
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: Belisarius on October 18, 2005, 05:07:43 PM
Lemme just note for the record, I'm anti-AA though not passionately so.... though I agree with the rationale behind it.

IMO they should do "Poverty AA" for the poor and near-poor. Maybe even tilt it especially for the urban poor.

IMO a poor kid from a city or boondocks area deserves a lift, black or white, and a rich kid from the suburbs does not, whatever his skin shade.

I grew up poorish in the boondocks. I have one friend who grew up dirt poor and didn't have any favors done for him come admit time for that, while a step-sister of mine who's half spanish and grew up in the richest town in the state with wealthy parents as an essential WASP got the easy path.

Shame that.

You grew up poor and worked through college. You deserve every bit of advantage your URM gets you man, if not necessarily for the URM itself, for the obstacles you had to overcome that suburbs kids didn't.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: RockyMarciano on October 18, 2005, 05:12:06 PM

Third, a large part of my personal statement for law schools was dedicated to changing our affirmative action laws because I find them racist and feel they would be more worthwhile if they focused on economics (I happen to be poor) instead of race.


Hey Towlie,
     I do not know if you have read Anne Ivey's guide to law school or not. However, she mentions that talking about AA as being reverse discrimination is very bad. She says that law school's believe in AA and agree it is helping. I do not want to argue or anything but just wanted to give a heads up to a fellow Wildcat.

Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: jeb240 on October 18, 2005, 05:14:54 PM

Third, a large part of my personal statement for law schools was dedicated to changing our affirmative action laws because I find them racist and feel they would be more worthwhile if they focused on economics (I happen to be poor) instead of race.


Hey Towlie,
     I do not know if you have read Anne Ivey's guide to law school or not. However, she mentions that talking about AA as being reverse discrimination is very bad. She says that law school's believe in AA and agree it is helping. I do not want to argue or anything but just wanted to give a heads up to a fellow Wildcat.



I was actually thinking the same thing, myself.  I feel like issues-oriented PS are, in general, frowned upon.  I agree with Towelie, but I wonder if that wasn't an unwise maneuver.  Still, if everything else is in line for this or that school/adcomm, I hardly think taking a logical and reasoned stance on any particular issue is going to work against him.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: sarmstrong806 on October 18, 2005, 05:18:24 PM
You are a gay black man from an IVY.  Just apply to HYS and STFU.

Female, Native American, and Lesbian would be much better.


Seriously though, If I was black I would be shooting for schools with medians 8 points above my score, it would be stupid not to.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: RockyMarciano on October 18, 2005, 05:22:12 PM
.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: John Galt on October 18, 2005, 05:30:24 PM

Third, a large part of my personal statement for law schools was dedicated to changing our affirmative action laws because I find them racist and feel they would be more worthwhile if they focused on economics (I happen to be poor) instead of race.


Hey Towlie,
     I do not know if you have read Anne Ivey's guide to law school or not. However, she mentions that talking about AA as being reverse discrimination is very bad. She says that law school's believe in AA and agree it is helping. I do not want to argue or anything but just wanted to give a heads up to a fellow Wildcat.



Apparently Ann Coulter did her essay about this...she was rejected from quite a few schools.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: upNdown on October 18, 2005, 05:45:56 PM
I understand - if I ended up with a sub-160 score on my LSAT, I don't know what I would have done. Again not to offend anyone, but I studies my butt off for 6 months, and just ah.

But for you, a sub-160 (which I DOUBT entirely that you will get) is not the end of the world. I would bet with a 159, or 158 even, you'd get into BC and BU with scholarship money even. Those are awesome schools.

You crack 165 (or maybe even lower) and I'll see you at a T14!

I doubt it.  I don't care if he's the gayest blackest applicant in the pool, I don't think he's getting money from BC or BU with a 3.0 and a sub 160 GPA. 

You'll probably get into those schools with a 158, but if you're looking for money, that's probably the number where you'd need to expand your application pool - 159 or lower. 
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: jeb240 on October 18, 2005, 06:02:46 PM
I understand - if I ended up with a sub-160 score on my LSAT, I don't know what I would have done. Again not to offend anyone, but I studies my butt off for 6 months, and just ah.

But for you, a sub-160 (which I DOUBT entirely that you will get) is not the end of the world. I would bet with a 159, or 158 even, you'd get into BC and BU with scholarship money even. Those are awesome schools.

You crack 165 (or maybe even lower) and I'll see you at a T14!

I doubt it.  I don't care if he's the gayest blackest applicant in the pool, I don't think he's getting money from BC or BU with a 3.0 and a sub 160 GPA. 

You'll probably get into those schools with a 158, but if you're looking for money, that's probably the number where you'd need to expand your application pool - 159 or lower. 

Hmm... here's hoping I won't hit that lower limit, right?  Well, I'll keep you guys posted.

And, is it me, or was this the most popular "What are my chances?" post yet?
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: John Galt on October 18, 2005, 06:13:12 PM
It may to grow to be the most infamous. Popular? no.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: jeb240 on October 18, 2005, 06:15:34 PM
It may to grow to be the most infamous. Popular? no.

How are you defining "popular"?  I certainly do not mean the most liked.  Hmm... maybe I don't know what popular means.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: practiceboy02 on October 18, 2005, 06:24:10 PM
Quote
Soft factors: URM (black male), gay, work 35-40hrs/wk when in school, 3.02 Cum GPA with an addendum citing depression and pointing out that all of last year my GPA was a 3.7 ave, interesting (?) PS, strong LORs, poor (disadvantaged?), Ivy League ugrad, "non-trad" in that I took a 2yr break between sophomore and junior years, and interesting (?) Yale essay.

Good luck man, I'll be rooting for you. Other than the URM, gay, working in school, and Ivy league bit we're in the same boat.

That is to say, low cum, 2 years off for mental health reasons, high GPA on return (anticipated in my case).... and expecting goodish scores and having no clue where to apply....

It's kinda funny because I'm pretty similar to the OP in all the things you guys are dissimilar in (minority, gay, Ivy) and dissimilar to the OP in all the things you guys are similar in (GPA, non-trad history)
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: John Galt on October 18, 2005, 06:30:03 PM
Quote
Soft factors: URM (black male), gay, work 35-40hrs/wk when in school, 3.02 Cum GPA with an addendum citing depression and pointing out that all of last year my GPA was a 3.7 ave, interesting (?) PS, strong LORs, poor (disadvantaged?), Ivy League ugrad, "non-trad" in that I took a 2yr break between sophomore and junior years, and interesting (?) Yale essay.

Good luck man, I'll be rooting for you. Other than the URM, gay, working in school, and Ivy league bit we're in the same boat.

That is to say, low cum, 2 years off for mental health reasons, high GPA on return (anticipated in my case).... and expecting goodish scores and having no clue where to apply....

It's kinda funny because I'm pretty similar to the OP in all the things you guys are dissimilar in (minority, gay, Ivy) and dissimilar to the OP in all the things you guys are similar in (GPA, non-trad history)

i'm beginning to get the feeling that gay minorities are not underrepresented in Law School. If that is the case, I'm pretty sure gay individuals in general are not underrepresented in law schools.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: 4ssh0l3 on October 18, 2005, 06:45:24 PM
Quote
Soft factors: URM (black male), gay, work 35-40hrs/wk when in school, 3.02 Cum GPA with an addendum citing depression and pointing out that all of last year my GPA was a 3.7 ave, interesting (?) PS, strong LORs, poor (disadvantaged?), Ivy League ugrad, "non-trad" in that I took a 2yr break between sophomore and junior years, and interesting (?) Yale essay.

Good luck man, I'll be rooting for you. Other than the URM, gay, working in school, and Ivy league bit we're in the same boat.

That is to say, low cum, 2 years off for mental health reasons, high GPA on return (anticipated in my case).... and expecting goodish scores and having no clue where to apply....

It's kinda funny because I'm pretty similar to the OP in all the things you guys are dissimilar in (minority, gay, Ivy) and dissimilar to the OP in all the things you guys are similar in (GPA, non-trad history)

i'm beginning to get the feeling that gay minorities are not underrepresented in Law School. If that is the case, I'm pretty sure gay individuals in general are not underrepresented in law schools.

Seriously, how many gay minorities have posted in this thread alone? 
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: The Dread Pirate Roberts on October 18, 2005, 06:58:19 PM
I'm pretty sure gay individuals in general are not underrepresented in law schools.

I've never bought the idea that glbq folks are underrepresented in law school.  I just can't think of any particular reason that we would be.  If anything, I would guess queers may be overrepresented.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: John Galt on October 18, 2005, 07:05:02 PM
I was getting the impression that people were noting their glbq status as a diversity characteristic. I may have misinterpreted, though. Didn't mean to offend anyone.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: The Dread Pirate Roberts on October 18, 2005, 07:12:11 PM
I was getting the impression that people were noting their glbq status as a diversity characteristic. I may have misinterpreted, though. Didn't mean to offend anyone.

I can't imagine anyone was offended.  (Well, ok, I can, but I don't know why they would be.)

And I think that if articulated in an interesting way, gay-ness can provide perspectives which adcomms would value but which not all queer folks express well in an application.

Also, people for whom being openly glbtq has been hard probably have a more interesting and "diverse" experience to share than those of us for whom it's pretty unremarkable.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: 4ssh0l3 on October 18, 2005, 07:14:42 PM
Being gay is a diversity thing.  Also, large firms have an informal AA system for gays and other URMs.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: 4ssh0l3 on October 18, 2005, 07:24:05 PM
http://modelminority.com/
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: Tiwaz on October 18, 2005, 07:30:19 PM
Also, people for whom being openly glbtq has been hard probably have a more interesting and "diverse" experience to share than those of us for whom it's pretty unremarkable.

Agreed.  I won't be mentioning my sexuality anywhere in my applications; it hasn't really been an issue for me, and, since I haven't been active in any related organizations, it's not really connected to anything in my resume.

Of course, YMMV.  I'm sure there are many LGBT folks who can write a great diversity statement based on their experiences. 
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: Nemesis on October 18, 2005, 07:30:50 PM
I think you guys are forgetting that there is no such thing as an auto-admit. Having stellar numbers is NOT enough to garuantee admission into one or more of the T14. There are tonnes of people with great numbers that get rejected every cycle and it's not because of some evil minority student that stole their seat. It's more than likely that that person decided to rest on their laurels instead of putting forth any real effort.

Law school admissions is all about what you have to offer. John Galt has very strong stats and he got them through hard work and IN SPITE of all the challenges he has had to face.

When his acceptances start rolling in, they won't be simply because he had great numbers or just because he was black but because of the COMPLETE package he has to offer.

I am not implying that people of color are the only ones who must overcome such obstacles. But I would advise those of you who find this process "unfair" to focus on how you can compile a strong application package that highlights not only your intellectual stamina, but the depth of character.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: Lucky77 on October 18, 2005, 07:35:01 PM

Third, a large part of my personal statement for law schools was dedicated to changing our affirmative action laws because I find them racist and feel they would be more worthwhile if they focused on economics (I happen to be poor) instead of race.


Hey Towlie,
     I do not know if you have read Anne Ivey's guide to law school or not. However, she mentions that talking about AA as being reverse discrimination is very bad. She says that law school's believe in AA and agree it is helping. I do not want to argue or anything but just wanted to give a heads up to a fellow Wildcat.




You know, I was actually kind of scared to put that in my personal statement too (and no my personal statement is NOT issue-oriented, but rather, it is in the concluding paragraph where I spoke about what I wanted to do with a legal education, it happened to come up). And I did not argue that AA was backwards discrimination, instead I said "Our affirmative action laws need to be updated to include the working class and working poor populations".

Still, even given that, I was scared to put it in. So you know what I did? I called admissions officers at Stanford, Duke, Berkeley, Michigan, Penn, Cornell, and NYU and asked how they felt. They all told me to go for it - that it personally did not offend any of them, and that it was appropriate. Trust me, if even one gave me the wrong impression, I would not have included it.

Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: chidochido on October 18, 2005, 07:47:06 PM
My take on AA is unique.  I'm not a URM but I am a minority - a minority that somehow has become disproportionately overrepresented in American professions.  My parents come from one of the poorest countries on this planet and my dad grew up in a slum the likes of which would be incomprehensible to most Americans.  The country was also oppressed by foreign rule until the mid twentieth century (can you guess what I am yet).

Anyway, I really raise an eyebrow about affirmative action.  

I feel you and respect your unique take on this issue.
Another way to think of it, however, stems from historical factors that different communities experience. Just as you cite your family's cultural history as a counter-example, others of different or similar backgrounds might have another interpretation of the circumstances.

In my mind, AA has a lot to do with a sense of a certain country's responsibilities for previous wrongdoings. It's kind of mitigating unfavorable circumstances that a republic may have had a hand in creating, such as slavery, colonization of American Indian lands, the violation of land treaties, etc. In the US's case, there is a level of institutionalized guilt that may be involved in dealings with certain groups whose lot has been damaged by US history and policy. It goes a bit farther than simple discrimination; this deals with acts of cruelty, physical displacement, disenfranchisement - in general, ther creation of a dispossessed population. US institutions may not feel the same sense of duty to people who come from another area of the world altogether, who may not have been affected by US actions quite as directly.

Just my take on it.

Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: John Galt on October 18, 2005, 07:47:58 PM
I think you guys are forgetting that there is no such thing as an auto-admit. Having stellar numbers is NOT enough to garuantee admission into one or more of the T14. There are tonnes of people with great numbers that get rejected every cycle and it's not because of some evil minority student that stole their seat. It's more than likely that that person decided to rest on their laurels instead of putting forth any real effort.

Law school admissions is all about what you have to offer. John Galt has very strong stats and he got them through hard work and IN SPITE of all the challenges he has had to face.

When his acceptances start rolling in, they won't be simply because he had great numbers or just because he was black but because of the COMPLETE package he has to offer.

I am not implying that people of color are the only ones who must overcome such obstacles. But I would advise those of you who find this process "unfair" to focus on how you can compile a strong application package that highlights not only your intellectual stamina, but the depth of character.

Coming from the only person on here I actually know in real life, thanks. I appreciate the kind words.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: TXcal on October 18, 2005, 07:57:11 PM
Jason:  we've gotten way off your original query, but I want to second Towlie and Steve's posts.  I think your list is fine and doesn't need any additions as long as you score in the 160s+.  At 159/160 and below--unlikely, given your practice scores--I'd crank out some safety apps. 
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: Stephon Devante on October 18, 2005, 08:15:20 PM
To the OP:

"The prideful side of me would rather think that I have a shot at these schools because I merit it, my GPA notwithstanding."

If this is true, then do not mention being gay or black anywhere on your applications, PS, or diversity statements.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: 4ssh0l3 on October 18, 2005, 08:18:36 PM
To the OP:

"The prideful side of me would rather think that I have a shot at these schools because I merit it, my GPA notwithstanding."

If this is true, then do not mention being gay or black anywhere on your applications, PS, or diversity statements.

STFU we're making reparations!
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: SolarysBlue on October 18, 2005, 08:19:12 PM
Jason's list has enough safeties. He's in at most of those places easy. (Some of those schools like Vandy had almost 10% drop in minority apps last year so this yr should be easier)
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: John Galt on October 18, 2005, 08:23:07 PM
To the OP:

"The prideful side of me would rather think that I have a shot at these schools because I merit it, my GPA notwithstanding."

If this is true, then do not mention being gay or black anywhere on your applications, PS, or diversity statements.

This makes no sense. It is precisely those things that make him a compelling candidate. Compelling personal qualities = merit.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: Stephon Devante on October 18, 2005, 08:24:59 PM
" Compelling personal qualities = merit. "

Then I just hope Duke finds it "compelling" that I was born with white skin and I choose to like women instead of men. Lol.

Good night everyone, I retire now from this conversation.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: Lucky77 on October 18, 2005, 08:31:58 PM
Haha. Wow. I've heard that being gay is a "choice" but never that being straight is. Kudos to you for admitting it!
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: frankfurt on October 18, 2005, 08:33:49 PM
I think you guys are forgetting that there is no such thing as an auto-admit. Having stellar numbers is NOT enough to garuantee admission into one or more of the T14. There are tonnes of people with great numbers that get rejected every cycle and it's not because of some evil minority student that stole their seat. It's more than likely that that person decided to rest on their laurels instead of putting forth any real effort.

Law school admissions is all about what you have to offer. John Galt has very strong stats and he got them through hard work and IN SPITE of all the challenges he has had to face.

When his acceptances start rolling in, they won't be simply because he had great numbers or just because he was black but because of the COMPLETE package he has to offer.

I am not implying that people of color are the only ones who must overcome such obstacles. But I would advise those of you who find this process "unfair" to focus on how you can compile a strong application package that highlights not only your intellectual stamina, but the depth of character.


What a bunch of platitudes. People who deem the AA process unfair should just focus on describing their depth of character in a law school application? What a wonderful remedy! No need to debate when we have our own special marks of character. You are black and I overcame a personal hardship: I'm sure adcoms see them just as two signs of equal diversity! You can live in your bubble of denial, but it is only makes the situation worse. Some AA supporter will have to argue this case to the John Roberts Supreme Court in the next 24 months and the "dude get over it" or "it's not THAT big of a help" argument may not be so effective. Without AA, there would be almost no black students at Ivy League law schools. That not what I think; that is not what I want; that is FACT. There are just not enough qualified (LSAT and GPA speaking) blacks out there. Don't believe me? It's all empirical fact found within the Supreme Court case of dealing with AA. Read it and let your collective flabbergasted jaws drop when you find out that only 29 (!) blacks scored over 165 and had over a 3.5 gpa during the 2003 admissions cycle. For this reason, we as a society need AA. Without it, elite law schools would be all white students with one Jon Galt type each year.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: Lucky77 on October 18, 2005, 08:42:41 PM
Sounds like society's problem to me. What, as a society, are we doing wrong with our education system to discourage or stop african-americans from performing to their full capacity (which, I believe, is just as high as caucasians or any other race).

The answer isn't just accept that black people have lower grades and accomdate to it. It's to fix the problem so they can perform their best! (please don't bombard this comment with statements saying "but yes, in the mean time we need AA" because that may be so.. I'm just a big picture guy).
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: frankfurt on October 18, 2005, 08:45:19 PM
Towlie- You hit the nail on the head. Somewhere Jon Galt is seething.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: practiceboy02 on October 18, 2005, 08:50:14 PM
Sure, being gay and black alone does not constitute any unique personal quality.  But you can't deny that having lived as a black, openly gay man has indeed equipped the OP with certain unique personal qualities that he could not have otherwise attained.  To argue otherwise is really ignorant.

EDIT: by the way, I'm a gay minority as well but not a URM
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: John Galt on October 18, 2005, 08:52:04 PM
To the OP:

"The prideful side of me would rather think that I have a shot at these schools because I merit it, my GPA notwithstanding."

If this is true, then do not mention being gay or black anywhere on your applications, PS, or diversity statements.

This makes no sense. It is precisely those things that make him a compelling candidate. Compelling personal qualities = merit.

Not only does being black and gay not equal merit, but they are not even personal qualities.  Physical and biological characteristics yes - but "personal qualities" no way.  Personal qualities as understood in commonspeak relate to your attitude, psychology, & beliefs - namely things you have control over.  

Its a nitpicky statement I'm making but it is a dangerous line of thinking to believe that there is inherent merit in being black and gay without the context of quantifiable achievements.  Law schools might let such people in with lower numbers, but it falls flat in the real world.  When the time comes for a promotion or raise at work and your boss says that you're not getting one because you only got a 3/6 on your performance review or fell under your revenue quota, I wouldn't advise anyone to bring up the "personal quality" of being gay as a merit based response.




Don't take my comments out of the context in which they were stated. I said for law school. An law school education is enhanced by the diversity of views and perspectives of its student body. Blacks and lbgq students who bring their perspective as a result of their experiences based on their sexuality and race add considerably to any law school class. Thus it is merit.


Edit: I should add that the above justification fits your definition of personal qualities.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: chidochido on October 18, 2005, 08:59:36 PM
The fact is, our society has been pretty whack to minorities and the queer community.

Is AA the perfect solution? No.

Are there bigger and better solutions to the problems? Yes.

Is most of the country willing to put their money where their mouth is to fix past wrongdoings? Hell no.

What makes me laugh is that AA only BEGINS to flirt with the types of social adjustments necessary to fix what the US already F'd up for people. Do you want to pay reparations for blacks? Return half the country to the American Indian tribes? How about just giving CA back to Mexico?

You all have your panties in a bunch over one well-deserved spot in a law school going to a good candidate, but that is STILL a pretty weak repayment. It's like leasing the country for 500 years and being pissed about being charged 0.001% interest on the motha.

With that, I'm out for the night. Good luck everyone.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: practiceboy02 on October 18, 2005, 09:04:04 PM
Sure, being gay and black alone does not constitute any unique personal quality.  But you can't deny that having lived as a black, openly gay man has indeed equipped the OP with certain unique personal qualities that he could not have otherwise attained.  To argue otherwise is really ignorant.

EDIT: by the way, I'm a gay minority as well but not a URM
I don't like the 'to argue otherwise is really ignorant' phrase.  My point was just that those things do not constitue a personal quality.  I agree with your first line in that.

I also agree with you that those factors give the OP definitely 'unique-ness', but NOT merit.  


That's the crux of the matter: nobody cares whether or not you think unique-ness constitutes merit... EVERYBODY cares whether or not adcoms think unique-ness constitutes merit, which they do.

EDIT: that came out a LOT meaner than it was supposed to.  Please don't take it the wrong way!
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: John Galt on October 18, 2005, 09:06:30 PM
Sure, being gay and black alone does not constitute any unique personal quality.  But you can't deny that having lived as a black, openly gay man has indeed equipped the OP with certain unique personal qualities that he could not have otherwise attained.  To argue otherwise is really ignorant.

EDIT: by the way, I'm a gay minority as well but not a URM
I don't like the 'to argue otherwise is really ignorant' phrase.  My point was just that those things do not constitue a personal quality.  I agree with your first line in that.

I also agree with you that those factors give the OP definitely 'unique-ness', but NOT merit.  


That's the crux of the matter: nobody cares whether or not you think unique-ness constitutes merit... EVERYBODY cares whether or not adcoms think unique-ness constitutes merit, which they do.


Excellent point.


I'm out for the night. Have a good one, all.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: John Galt on October 18, 2005, 09:38:25 PM
Sure, being gay and black alone does not constitute any unique personal quality.  But you can't deny that having lived as a black, openly gay man has indeed equipped the OP with certain unique personal qualities that he could not have otherwise attained.  To argue otherwise is really ignorant.

EDIT: by the way, I'm a gay minority as well but not a URM
I don't like the 'to argue otherwise is really ignorant' phrase.  My point was just that those things do not constitue a personal quality.  I agree with your first line in that.

I also agree with you that those factors give the OP definitely 'unique-ness', but NOT merit.  


That's the crux of the matter: nobody cares whether or not you think unique-ness constitutes merit... EVERYBODY cares whether or not adcoms think unique-ness constitutes merit, which they do.

EDIT: that came out a LOT meaner than it was supposed to.  Please don't take it the wrong way!

Here's a comment that might also seem rude but is worth considering: 

I'm sure that mentally retarded people are completely underrepresented in America's top law schools and the profession itself.  There are numerous legal issues (stem-cell research, handicapped rights etc) that affect these people.  As long as they're counting unique personal qualities as merit, maybe we should start admitting the mentally handicapped into top tier schools.  It is nice to have unique perspectives in the classroom.   However, perhaps it starts to chip away at the quality of the education if the people with these perspectives are not on the same intellectual level as everyone else.

As you said though nobody cares about my opinion - we're all bitches to the ad comms whims

This is by far the dumbest analogy I have ever read. I mean, what are you thinking when you write something like this?

You do understand that merit encompasses a myriad of factors? Sure a mentally handicapped student has an interesting perspective...and if he/she has a decent LSAT score, GPA, and an ability to reason, I would not be opposed to having a student in the class. But that perspective alone would not be enough to merit admission. My point is that personal qualities are considered among many other factors (awards, research, WE, GPA, LSAT, Recs, ect) to result in a decision. To suggest that blacks are admitted on the basis of being black alone is unfounded (or blacks with 120s, 130s, 140s would be admitted to Yale, etc).
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: Lucky77 on October 18, 2005, 09:56:36 PM
You know what's funny? This originally just started out as a "where can I get into thread" and turned into affirmative action BS.

Jason, you'll be fine! Just wait for your LSAT score, it'll only be a few more days.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: mifimo on October 18, 2005, 10:21:05 PM
on the off-chance that Jason240 isn't avoiding this thread like the plague:

just reading your soft factors in a list is impressive. placing them into a PS, you make an attractive candidate because you show personal strength, and their favorite, overcoming adversity. from your posts, you're obviously intelligent, and I'm sure that comes across in your applications. You're other factors are enough of an explanation to mitigate your GPA, so I don't know why everybody is focusing solely on your race. regardless of your race (which only helps), your situation is strong.

in other words, don't worry. you're sure to get into a few top 20 schools, at the very least. since the app process is a crap shoot, it never hurts to have as many apps as you can, but you're list is more than sufficient.

Soft factors: URM (black male), gay, work 35-40hrs/wk when in school, 3.02 Cum GPA with an addendum citing depression and pointing out that all of last year my GPA was a 3.7 ave, interesting (?) PS, strong LORs, poor (disadvantaged?), Ivy League ugrad, "non-trad" in that I took a 2yr break between sophomore and junior years, and interesting (?) Yale essay.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: cinnamin2891 on October 18, 2005, 10:47:11 PM
The fact is, our society has been pretty whack to minorities and the queer community.

Is AA the perfect solution? No.

Are there bigger and better solutions to the problems? Yes.

Is most of the country willing to put their money where their mouth is to fix past wrongdoings? Hell no.

What makes me laugh is that AA only BEGINS to flirt with the types of social adjustments necessary to fix what the US already F'd up for people. Do you want to pay reparations for blacks? Return half the country to the American Indian tribes? How about just giving CA back to Mexico?

You all have your panties in a bunch over one well-deserved spot in a law school going to a good candidate, but that is STILL a pretty weak repayment. It's like leasing the country for 500 years and being pissed about being charged 0.001% interest on the motha.

With that, I'm out for the night. Good luck everyone.

Hell yeah - that's what I'm talking about.  You def hit the nail on the head.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: jeb240 on October 19, 2005, 01:05:14 AM
I haven't been avoiding the post... I was asleep.  Different time zone.

Uhm... I understand why they thought it an okay idea to move my post to the AA discussion board, but I made a decision long ago to avoid this board and I mostly (not entirely) have.  My question was about my chances, and now the fact that it has been moved from Law Applications to the AA board only makes it look like I wanted to start an AA discussion.

And now it's so entrenched in the AA realm that even if they were willing to move it back to the other board I wouldn't want them to, as it has completely become an AA discussion despite my best efforts to keep it on track or at least off that track.

That's a little upsetting.  The very fact that this discussion has ballooned into over 100 responses is precisely why I try to avoid AA discussions.

Also, what happened to the 't'?  Sugersh said "glbq" and everyone else followed suit, but, Sugersh, what happened to the 't'?

And a few remarks before I head off to vaca:
- I do not think that being gay is necessarily under/over/sufficiently represented in law school.  I do think that it merely adds to the package that I'm presenting in my law school application: all of these things, I hope and think, serve to make me "more" unique.  I'm not the only poor gay black (ivy?) guy applying to law school -- I both know this and, even if i didn't, would be willing to bet on it.  but if i didn't mention it I'd be just another black guy or just another poor black guy... we're all trying to stand out, BUT BEING GAY =/= MERIT, at least not in my opinion.  A law app is, for good or bad, about a lot more than showing merit.

- I stopped reading after a while so I do not know if this was already covered, but I wanted to say that the problem for Asians (especially East Asians) is that they still suffer from that "Model Minority" idea that surfaced in the early 80s and has not yet crumbled to obvious reason.  People think that because so many professional Asians came to the US in the 1960s and 70s and went into high fields in the sciences and engineering (which was our own immigration filtration systme) and have done well for themselves that they don't need the "help."  They forget that Asians have been in the states as poor laborer since even before Blacks and they don't realize that the Asians who are doing "well" not only represent a small subset (I imagine -- I could be wrong about that and if you want you can go ahead and check the numbers and get back to me) of the rest of the Asian population here in the states, nor do they realize that many Asians aren't the "Head" of anything that they themselves haven't started -- that even the Asians who "like math" (Harold and Kumar, I'm the second person to reference it in this thread but man that was a good movie) or whatever hit that all-too-low glass ceiling early on.  The point is that Asians should, in my opinion, fall under the AA umbrella, even if it's only a slight boost, but I don't make the rules.  If I did, AA would be much more about economic standing than anything else (but would still focus on race).

- Sdevante asked that if I want to think that I got in on merit, why mention the other things?  Because if I didn't mention the other things then I'd be a 3.02 student with (hopefully) a good GPA.  Which of the schools I want to go to would let me in?  What proof would they have that, IMHO, my GPA does not come close to accurately portraying my abilities.  As well, and I do not know why you chose to cut off that part of the line, I said that, "While the pragmatic side of me would hardly turn down getting into a top school or begrudge any one for getting into a school with less than ideal numbers because he fits into other criteria, the prideful side of me would rather think that I have a shot at these schools because I merit it, my GPA notwithstanding  ;)). "  I'd rather get in on my merit, but like many students I know that getting in solely on merit is hardly sufficient nor even a good idea because sometimes other things might trump merit, as well as I, like I'm sure other students, think that I deserve to go to a stop school whether my GPA or LSAT score agrees or not (maybe I'm wrong).

- I again want to voice my regret over this thread being moved to AA.  And I wish that a moderator had done their quasi-censorship thing and stepped in and told people to get back on track like they do with other threads rather than validating the people who've essentially hijacked my thread (although I do enjoy the fact that people were left to discuss what they want) and moving it over here.  ::sighs:: But I suppose all of this does answer my original question.  If I don't break the low 160s, I will start cranking out more apps.

Thanks everybody  ;D.  You're free to discuss all the AA razzamatazz you'd like to, now.  I give my thread over to you.  And, gosh, have fun with the warzone this board is going to turn into starting tomorrow and well into the weekend!
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: The Dread Pirate Roberts on October 19, 2005, 06:20:35 AM
Also, what happened to the 't'?  Sugersh said "glbq" and everyone else followed suit, but, Sugersh, what happened to the 't'?

I was saying that I didn't think glbq folks were underrepresented, but I actually suspect that transgendered and transsexual people are more likely to be underrepresented.  Obviously this is a broad generalization, but of those I know, transfolk tend to be more visible and have a significantly harder time than glb people in terms of family relationships, jobs, social acceptance, and the law (for example, many states protect against workplace discrimination based on orientation, but few protect against discrimination based on gender identity).  I also think that they tend to have different experiences which would lead to having different contributions to a law school community.

Since as far as I know you don't identify as trans, I thought a discussion of glbq was more appropriate than to include the "t" as if all five were in the same situation.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: navyseal69 on October 19, 2005, 10:01:29 AM
"Affirmative Action Hurts Black Law Students, Study Finds": The Chronicle of Higher Education (article available to nonsubscribers free for the next five days; for subscribers, its permanent home is here) writes:

Affirmative action hurts black law students more than it helps them, by bumping applicants up into law schools where they are more likely to earn poor grades, drop out, and fail their states' bar exams, according to a forthcoming study by a law professor at the University of California at Los Angeles.

The author, Richard H. Sander, argues that ending racial preferences in law-school admissions would increase the number of black lawyers because it would help ensure that students attend law schools where they are more likely to succeed.

A report of the study, scheduled to appear in the November issue of the Stanford Law Review, has sparked a contentious debate among supporters and critics of affirmative action. . . .

His report, "A Systemic Analysis of Affirmative Action in American Law Schools," says that:

After the first year of law school, 51 percent of black students have grade-point averages that place them in the bottom tenth of their classes, compared with 5 percent of white students. "Evidence suggests that when you're doing that badly, you're learning less than if you were in the middle of a class" at a less-prestigious law school, Mr. Sander says.
Among students who entered law school in 1991, about 80 percent of white students graduated and passed the bar on their first attempt, compared with just 45 percent of black students. In a race-blind admissions system, the number of black graduates passing the bar the first time would jump to 74 percent, he says, based on his statistical analysis of how higher grades in less competitive schools would result in higher bar scores. Black students are nearly six times as likely as whites not to pass state bar exams after multiple attempts.
Ending affirmative action would increase the number of new black lawyers by 8.8 percent because students would attend law schools where they would struggle less and learn more, and earn higher grades.
With the exception of the most-elite law schools, good grades matter more to employers than the law school's prestige.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: chidochido on October 19, 2005, 11:05:05 AM
Now this is interesting, and a little bit more provocative than what most of the previous posts have been mentioning (mine included).

I don't think that we should stress about certain people being psychologically damaged by the effects of being a recipient of AA. If I get a break for past transgressions, or because I bring a unique perspective to the class, I'm fine with it.

Now, there is the question of whether AA policies actually help the recipients. Here, it becomes confusing because, according to most of what I have heard from friends in the top tier schools, some of the biggies are actually easier than middle of the pack schools (outside of Chicago, which everyone says is pretty tough by most standards). And yet the fugures cited here say that the black law students don't do as well there. How then, do they manage to do better in schools that are supposedly (again, just due to anecdotal evidence) harder?

Maybe its a question of approaches to learning throughout different schools, or the availability of support networks. Who knows.

Interesting piece, navyseal.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: John Galt on October 19, 2005, 11:41:24 AM
"Affirmative Action Hurts Black Law Students, Study Finds": The Chronicle of Higher Education (article available to nonsubscribers free for the next five days; for subscribers, its permanent home is here) writes:

Affirmative action hurts black law students more than it helps them, by bumping applicants up into law schools where they are more likely to earn poor grades, drop out, and fail their states' bar exams, according to a forthcoming study by a law professor at the University of California at Los Angeles.

The author, Richard H. Sander, argues that ending racial preferences in law-school admissions would increase the number of black lawyers because it would help ensure that students attend law schools where they are more likely to succeed.

A report of the study, scheduled to appear in the November issue of the Stanford Law Review, has sparked a contentious debate among supporters and critics of affirmative action. . . .

His report, "A Systemic Analysis of Affirmative Action in American Law Schools," says that:

After the first year of law school, 51 percent of black students have grade-point averages that place them in the bottom tenth of their classes, compared with 5 percent of white students. "Evidence suggests that when you're doing that badly, you're learning less than if you were in the middle of a class" at a less-prestigious law school, Mr. Sander says.
Among students who entered law school in 1991, about 80 percent of white students graduated and passed the bar on their first attempt, compared with just 45 percent of black students. In a race-blind admissions system, the number of black graduates passing the bar the first time would jump to 74 percent, he says, based on his statistical analysis of how higher grades in less competitive schools would result in higher bar scores. Black students are nearly six times as likely as whites not to pass state bar exams after multiple attempts.
Ending affirmative action would increase the number of new black lawyers by 8.8 percent because students would attend law schools where they would struggle less and learn more, and earn higher grades.
With the exception of the most-elite law schools, good grades matter more to employers than the law school's prestige.


I wonder if anyone here has actually read Sander's study. First he doesn't establish that the 51% in the bottom half of the classes are the ones failing the bar disproportionately. In fact, there is the alternative that the black students with higher grades were the ones who did poorly on the bar. Without establishing this simple correlation, his study fails. Second, Sanders fails to point out that on a curve system such as most law schools, it is not necessarily the overall quality of work that results in lower grades, but just in comparison to the other students. At a high caliber schools, brilliant students with exceptional quality of work are going to find themselves in the bottom 10% simply because someone has to occupy the bottom. Where are the other 49% of black students falling? If blacks were so unqualified to be in such an institution in the first place, I would expect the proportion in the bottom 10% to be higher. Third, he doesn't account for the fact that blacks by virtue of mainly living in large cities take harder bar exams. Lumping a group that largely takes the CA bar, NY bar, DC bar, ect with a group that has its members in very large group dispersed across the entire country is hardly valid. I'd like to see the white bar passage rate in states where blacks actually take the bar in high numbers. I doubt a lot of blacks take the bar in Minn or Kansas for example. Fourth, I really don't see how failing the bar the first time you take it is indicative of AA hurting students. In fact, the most elite law schools don't profess to teach you how to pass the bar. One has to study on his/her own for that and it is outside the scope of what law schools actually teach. Finally, he doesn't establish that the students at the highest caliber law schools are the black students failing the bar.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: chidochido on October 19, 2005, 12:06:48 PM
These are some important considerations - way to get deeper into the situation!

The Sander piece has def. had its share of discussion lately, and what LG brings up is some more fuel to the fire here. I'm glad we're getting to more substantive discussion and debate...I still think that AA needs to hold its place in admissions and in the workplace for a while, and it withstands any angery strawman arguments that try to shoot it down.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: frankfurt on October 19, 2005, 05:04:03 PM
AA is an attempt at rectifying this anomaly.  The basic concept here, I feel, is valid.  Should we give black, hispanic and native candidates that extra boost?  Yes.  Simply put, it's part of the dismantling of the socioeconomic constructs that bind the disadvantaged.  Make a black woman a lawyer, and it's likely she's going to use her privilege to enfranchise someone else from her community.  Slowly but surely, those "Old Boys' Clubs" we all despise are dismantled, or, at least, altered to fit the postmodern (and postcolonial) reality of 21st century America.
Quote
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Well said in theory. AA is NOT upheld legally as a remedy to the injustices you speak of, but as a tool to ensure diveristy in law schools. Your reasoning makes sense, the current legality and aim of AA does not. This is why AA will be made illegal by John Roberts and Co. next year.
 
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: chidochido on October 19, 2005, 06:19:42 PM
Marauder -

Good post. Again, it's clear that your story is very tied to a historical circumstance that shapes your perspective. And I'm with you and Towelie on the financials thing too. If someone got screwed over or was born into an underprivileged situation, they deserve a boost. Not an auto-admit, but a boost.

Well thought out and argued...good luck -
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: gosox on October 21, 2005, 12:32:29 PM
yo
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: misery on November 03, 2005, 02:00:55 PM
Quote from: John Galt link=topic=44001.msg790202#msg790202
Second, Sanders fails to point out that on a curve system such as most law schools, it is not necessarily the overall quality of work that results in lower grades, but just in comparison to the other students. At a high caliber schools, brilliant students with exceptional quality of work are going to find themselves in the bottom 10% simply because someone has to occupy the bottom. Where are the other 49% of black students falling? If blacks were so unqualified to be in such an institution in the first place, I would expect the proportion in the bottom 10% to be higher.

You forget to point out that the curve system takes into account a gaussian distribution of grades, something like 15/70/15 a/b/c is a common ratio in classes from what I've heard.  Regardless of the actual curve, grades are rarely, if not never linearly distributed anyway.  Therefore, the students on the bottom are signficantly worse than the students on the middle, and similarly, the students on the top perform significantly better than those in the middle... anyone who took the lsat should know what a gaussian curve is, right?
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: The Dread Pirate Roberts on November 03, 2005, 03:23:54 PM
anyone who took the lsat should know what a gaussian curve is, right?

Not really...
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: misery on November 03, 2005, 08:03:53 PM
Just in case you're not being sarcastic...

Gaussian = bell curve.  Compare the bottom 10% to 10-20% and then compare 40-50% to 50-60% with any grade distribution, there is a much greater disparity in the former than the latter.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: The Dread Pirate Roberts on November 04, 2005, 05:56:54 AM
Just in case you're not being sarcastic...

I do know what it is, but I wasn't being sarcastic; I don't think there's any relationship between knowing that and taking the LSAT.  I think the last time I thought about it was a high school math class, and it's the sort of thing I could easily imagine not remembering.
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: SkullTatt on November 04, 2005, 11:41:46 AM
I don't know what a Gaussian curve is, and have never known. Not that I'm proud of it, but... I definitely have taken the LSAT, and scored in the 93rd percentile!
Title: Re: A "what are my chances at X school" of a different color
Post by: misery on November 04, 2005, 02:58:18 PM
Just in case you're not being sarcastic...

I do know what it is, but I wasn't being sarcastic; I don't think there's any relationship between knowing that and taking the LSAT.  I think the last time I thought about it was a high school math class, and it's the sort of thing I could easily imagine not remembering.

You're right, but with the amount of time people on this board obsess over LSATs (I usually hang out in the study for lsat section, and I starting reading this board based on that section actually), I thought it was reasonable that those on this board would know.  Anyway, my point was that being in the bottom 10% is not something that can be brushed off as simply having 'tough competition,' because when you are in the bottom 10%, you aren't even close to being competition for the rest of the class.