Law School Discussion

Law Students => Transferring => Topic started by: functionial drunk on June 03, 2015, 08:48:24 AM

Title: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: functionial drunk on June 03, 2015, 08:48:24 AM
Please solve the following fact pattern:

Got in to a lower level tier 1 school in Florida, and slaved away my 1L year just like everyone else (2014-2015). Grueling hours in the library, studying on weekends, hoarding outlines, etc. In fall, I got a D in Civ Pro although it was the class that I studied the most for. I told myself that I would make adjustments in Spring and get a better GPA. I made HUGE adjustments: stopped working out, ate out a lot more to accommodate the hectic study schedule, hoarded more outlines, and even found a paying job during Spring. As it turns out, when Spring grades came out I got two Ds in Contracts and Legislation Regulation (a BS class that no one should really have to take, the teacher did not even teach). However, I got my highest grade in 1L year with a B in Con Law, a class I actually enjoyed and ACTUALLY MADE SENSE. After the tremendous relief from completion of 1L year I partied my butt off because I had not done that all semester. In the summer I planned on taking Tax I, Con Law II, and to continue working with the attorney who hired me. Despite the two Ds in Spring, my GPA was still higher than it was in fall (thanks to Con Law) although only marginally so.

Fast forward to halfway through the summer semester (present day). I have already began looking at my Tax and Con Law II E & Es, taking notes, keeping up with the readings, paying attention in lectures, etc. I am minding my own business when Tuesday, June 2, 2015, comes along. It was a particularly difficult day at work, the attorney who once was kind of nice to me as a fledgling 1L when he hired me during Spring, screams at me for fudging up a simple legal research assignment despite the fact I made an honest mistake. I mean really screamed at me like dropping F bombs and such. Whatever, I sucked it up (like always) and finished up my work day. As soon as I get off at 5 PM I got a call from the Academic Deans office at my school asking for me to come in for an impromptu meeting. I ask what it could possibly be about and the secretary responds with, "Your classes next year." Hurriedly I arrive on campus, disregarding the Bar Association event I was supposed to attend because as we all know SCHOOL IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANYTHING! I sit in the Dean's office and she does not hesitate to sit me down and tell me that I have been academically dismissed for not having my GPA at a 69 after completion of my 1L year. With my eyes glazed over and shell shocked I stare at her in bewilderment feeling myself die slowly inside as the words kept creeping out of her mouth. She continues to inform me that I have been dropped from my summer courses, which I have been faithfully participating in and attending for half of the summer semester along with my fall courses. She also informs me that my scholarships had been revoked. When she asks if I have any questions, I could only come up with the stock questions of: when is my financial aid reimbursement coming in? How does the appeal process work? Has anyone ever been readmitted in time for fall? In regards to the second question, she says that the readmission process is not guaranteed and may take some time to reach a decision. Like always, I remained courteous and composed on the outside but mentally flustered as I left her office.

The kicker here is that I have a 68.6667 GPA, .3333 away from being a "good" student in "solid" academic standing. For all of you prospective law students, let that sink in, the "curve's" margin is definitely that razor sharp. The Dean advised that I meet with some of my professor's to go over my final. I cannot do that right now because I for once feel directionless, helpless, and like an utter failure for the first time in my short life.

MAJOR ISSUES

Issue (1): I enjoy my school. Its great, despite my "lackluster" grades I do enjoy learning the law and most of the teachers are bearable. The practice of law does interest me and I think I would make a decent lawyer. I was a popular kid in my 1L class and I enjoyed the company of my classmates. Does anyone have a general idea on how the academic dismissal appeal process works and how long should I expect to be out of school? The Dean told me that I would need to draft a statement which would be submitted to a review committee; she strongly hinted that I should meet with my professors regarding my final grades (can they change my grades this late in the game?) and she strongly hinted if there were any medical conditions which "limited" my performance during my 1L year (am I supposed to admit I have ADD or some other BS disease so I can grovel a lame excuse to the committee?)

Issue (2): I am tired of having my soul crushed,  and swallowing my pride. Although my school is in the same state it is kind of far from the city where I want to practice.  The kids here are all way too smart and competitive. I have never been a "try hard" and I do not intend on starting now. I know the legal profession is rife with "try hards" and the unnecessary antagonism that they bring but I do think that some genuine, helpful, and reasonable people can still succeed in the legal profession today. Additionally, I think that I put in a lot more effort than some of the kids at the top of the class. I am tired of feeling like Forrest Gump in a classroom full of Einsteins. What are my chances of transferring to a lower tier II/ high tier III school after academic dismissal from my tier I in the city that I want to practice in and would that be advisable?

MINOR ISSUES

Issue (1): I officially hate my job. Without school there is really no point in working for $8 an hour for an ancient PI lawyer who has little to no patience and is not very friendly. What are my alternatives? I have done a lot of work for him and learned a lot although I don't know if quitting would be a good idea because he may give me a good reference. Mind you this man might be the very reason I flunked out because most 1Ls are not supposed to begin working until after their first year. In accepting the job, I may have let my greed get the best of me and I do have a tendency to take on way too much responsibilities on at once.

Issue (2): I have put in a lot of work at the local Bar Association. They seem to appreciate me and my volunteer work, and have even gone as far to nominate me as a student representative on their event committee. The head of the local bar association even reached out to me and asked that I attend the Voluntary Bar Association conference on July 11th and 12th so she can have a student representative. The obvious problem with this being that I am phony if I attend the conference and sit on the committee, because I am no longer "officially" a law student.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, for now assume that I am sticking to law school because I truly did enjoy the experience (as masochistic as that sounds) but please keep your answers related to the four issues stated above. Right now I am the most helpless I have ever felt so any sagacious wisdom on lawschooldiscussion.org is welcomed!

Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: loki13 on June 03, 2015, 09:15:42 AM
I'll see what I can do with that fact patter, functional drunk.

First, I think I know which school you're attending. I don't know if you want me to name it (since you didn't), but AFAIK, there is exactly one law school in Florida that has the 1L class requirements and semester timing that you just recited. I knew that the 69 was a requirement to graduate, but I didn't know that they'd yank you after one year!

Second, since I'm pretty sure it is the school I think it is, don't transfer. Really. There are two schools (I believe?) that have in-state tuition for Florida- I think you're at one of them. The Tier III schools are wicked expensive, and you'll never get a scholarship now. In addition, and I don't mean to be harsh, but it doesn't sound like you're going to be a superstar at one of the lower ranked schools (IME, a superstar at a Tier III school would often have been a superstar at a higher ranked school). That means you'll finish, at best, middle of the pack. The market isn't good enough for that, with the debt.

So I'd recommend an appeal. It's hard to get a read on your situation, but it sounds like all you need to do is successfully appeal a single grade upwards and you'll be okay. Yes, this is exceptionally rare. But it can be done. Look through the procedures, and get with your professors immediately (from the Spring, first). If you're that close, a very minor change could make a huge deal. Did you look over your old exams? Right now, you should have a single priority- figuring out the process, and understanding how to get back in. You seem to have made great contacts in the community- use them. Seriously. That's what they are there for.

Once you do that, resolve your other issues. You made a poor choice taking employment your 1L year with your grades so low. But you can't go back in time on that one.
Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: Maintain FL 350 on June 03, 2015, 10:51:55 AM
There's a lot to address here, so I'm going to be pretty general.

First, in order to have a shot at readmission to your current school or transferring to another school you're going to have to convince them that your 1L problems won't be repeated. Simply reapplying without a clear plan for future success will be a problem.

They're going to want to see (at least) that you've identified the problems and have a plan to deal with them. Incidentally, you should want this too. It's necessary for success.

Second, it sounds like you haven't really done that yet. You stated that you changed things after the first semester but still had low grades. Clearly, something else needs to change. Until you figure that out, reapplying is putting the cart before the horse. I completely understand how anxious you must be to get back in the game, but unless you figure this out you're likely to have a repeat.

Lastly, this is a concern:

Issue (2): I am tired of having my soul crushed,  and swallowing my pride. Although my school is in the same state it is kind of far from the city where I want to practice.  The kids here are all way too smart and competitive. I have never been a "try hard" and I do not intend on starting now.

I'm not exactly sure what a "try hard" is, but if you mean that you are not willing to absolutely work your butt off then you need to seriously consider whether or not this is the right profession for you. It's not going to get easier. Not when you take the bar, and not as an attorney. Law school success is only partly based on intellectual prowess. Hard work (as cliché as this may sound) really is the key ingredient.
Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: 🍟💵🌲🍥 on June 03, 2015, 11:17:17 AM
Honestly, THIS

http://www.cooley.edu/tampabay/


They will let you in and keep most of your credits too. They take 140 LSAT's with 2.0 GPA's. They will take you. And its in your state.
Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: loki13 on June 03, 2015, 12:17:05 PM
Anyone who is seriously suggesting Cooley-Tampa Bay, is, well not serious.

Cooley is the worst school. Well, is it the worst? Eh... let's say one of the very very worst.

The Tampa Bay campus is too new to have employment stats. But it is bottom of the barrel for the state of Florida. You'd have better connections coming out of Florida Coastal. Which also sucks. And the tuition is almost 50k a year.

Tampa already has a "local" school (Stetson- decent litigation, not much else, and yes, I know it's Gulfport- same damn thing). It also has UF and FSU* and, to a lesser extent, all the other schools in Florida feeding into that market.

Anyone who recommends Cooley has no idea what the Florida market is like.

*These two state schools do not have much of a natural legal market, so their grads go to the "major" markets- Tampa, Orlando, Jax, Miami.
Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: 🍟💵🌲🍥 on June 03, 2015, 04:39:59 PM
The guys looking for options, I gave him an option. If he has better options, take those. But if his goal is just to stay local and get licensed, THERE YOU GO.
Plus he mentions a need to work. Cooley does nights/weekends. Plus if law school is hard for him go 5 year plan. Spread it out not just for work but also so you can take less classes per semester and focus on each one at a time. Do you what you need to do for YOU op.
....or you could worry about what people might think about you if you do it and remain as you are scared to move due to fear of opinions.......... most pick the later. Its up to you OP. Explore whatever options you can, I just gave you a sure bet default for if those others options cave in and you don't want to not be lawyer (again, out of fear of opinions). Think of it as a safety school. It is FREE to apply to it. Its your life brother.
Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: functionial drunk on June 03, 2015, 07:51:35 PM
I would like to thank all of you for your prompt responses. The feedback is a lot better than whatever those cretins at TLS would come up with.

Firstly, I would like to thank you loki13. You have given me the best advice here. You may or may not be right about the school I am attending, but I am just staying anonymous because I do not want my fellow 2Ls figure out my identity in the case that the appeals committee does re-accept me. For the record there is a school in Miami which is ranked in the low 100s that offers competitive in state tuition at around $20k a year. That would probably be my transfer destination, but I am definitely going to try the appeal process first. As for your contention that I will not finish at the top of the class at any school that I would transfer to, you are probably right. At this point I know I can never be a law school professor. Its slightly sad to think that you start this whole law school quest, with such high hopes, only to get crushed when your grades come around.

You are also spot on about appealing one grade upwards. Contracts in Spring was a four credit class whereas all four of my other classes were three credits. Much like in Civ Pro, I put in my best effort for the semester in that class with only a D for disappointment to show for it. However I went to my teacher's office hours three times during the semester for two of our assignments. The teacher knows me by name and we were awkwardly conversational. I reviewed his final and he posted the answers so I can show what my (flawed) logic was and compare it to his flawless logic and knowledge of the law. If I can get him to budge a few points with a heartfelt analysis on what I thought went wrong then I can probably surpass the .3333 GPA deficit so that I can be in good academic standing. I would need a three point increase in that class to meet the threshold. That is a substantial boost and I don't know if the curve would allow it. Would it be a better approach to contact multiple teachers so that they can all give me a one point boost?

Secondly, Maintain FL 350 I appreciate your counseling as well. You are giving me sobering advice which is definitely what the appeals committee wants to see. I learned after receiving my first semester grades that reading does not really do anything. Knowing the cases is not enough. The problem that I had during my second semester was that I took on way more than I could handle. I started working, which as loki13 pointed out, was a terrible idea. I also became more involved in the local Bar association which also distracted me from my studies. Would that be an acceptable reason? They made us sign a waiver saying that we would not pursue employment in our first year, so I would have to come clean on that too. I would propose that I would never work during school again, but I don't know if they would trust that because I knowingly breached the waiver during my first year. I have a doctor that would happily sign me off as having ADD. I could give them a whole spiel about how I have un-diagnosed ADD and a doctor's note to prove it. That would sit poorly with me because its a bad reason, and I don't have ADD, but I would do just about anything to get back in.

As for that quote you sampled, I apologize but I wrote my whole post without thinking about what was implied. I'm just complaining about everyone else being able to grasp the material quicker than I am. I used "try hard" as a term of art, I did not intend to use it literally. A better substitution for "try hard" would be gunner, you know, the kid who does well at the expense of others. I literally did try the hardest I ever had in this first year, its just disappointing that it ended so poorly. As a matter of fact, my work ethic is probably the only reason I got into school in the first place. Clearly I am not the most academically gifted kid in school. The first time I took the LSAT, I scored in the unranked school range, the second time I took it I increased 10 points and got accepted into pretty good schools with scholarships. This improvement happened while I worked full time so I studied after work and on weekends. The work ethic is not the question. My legal writing teacher even noted, after tearing into every single one of my writing assignments, that I am a hard worker. Additionally, The TAs in that class can attest that I met with them frequently for tips on my assignments. Personally, I think that the difference between the highest grade and the lowest grade in the class is not that big. Actually both may be right, but the one that is more in line with the teacher's views is the "better" one.

Thirdly, i VII I appreciate the input but I don't think I'm going to do that. Even a curb bottom feeder, like myself, knew that getting into a decent school was important if you wanted to land a decent job out of law school. The whole reason I took the LSAT a second time was so that I can avoid going to a diploma mill like that. Unfortunately, it may be my only option if the appeals committee does not look at my application favorably. The Florida Bar should be more concerned with regulating the absurd amount of schools in the state, but hey what do I know? I pretty much flunked out of law school!

Finally, Minor issue (1) is off the table. Figured that I may as well suck it up because most people hate their boss anyway. I can salvage something out of this train wreck if my appeal is successful and if I keep this job so that I can show employers next summer.
Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: Citylaw on June 03, 2015, 10:06:00 PM
There is so much talk about going to a "good school", but at the end of the day in the legal world at least in California it doesn't matter that much. You are at Tier 1 working for a solo PI attorney that cusses at you making $8.00 an hour would Tampa Cooley or Steston or any of the schools do much better than that?  The truth is that is not uncommon for tier 1 to tier 4 law students when you start out. You are struggling at this tier 1, but if you attended a school with a little less competitive students you might have a better GPA and more confidence.

I think everyone gave good advice, but don't get to wrapped up in the rankings etc this is why I always preach about finding the right school for you. The reality is once you graduate from a law school you take the bar, which is extremely difficult if you pass your a lawyer.  Your first job out of law school you will be overworked and underpaid, but as you put time in you will gain experience a reputation etc.

Loki does make a good point about in-state tuition and I know there are three schools in Florida that offer in-state tuition and I assuming Florida International University is not the school you are attending as it is not Tier 1, but since it offers in-state tuition on top of an awesome location in Miami it might be a good option.

If your not set on Florida there a number of other schools out there. I know for my California school a few people got dismissed after 1L, but they had the option to take the Baby Bar Exam and if they passed that they could be readmitted. Perhaps you could propose taking the Baby Bar Exam to your current school. It is California's exam, but from my understanding it is really just the MBE subjects and I think if you pass that you can show a commitment to your school or another school that you have what it takes.





Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: functionial drunk on July 23, 2015, 02:39:37 PM
Hey guys sorry for the inactivity. I would like to bring a little closure to this thread.

So, as it turns out my whole meeting with the Dean of Academic Affairs and the Dean of Student Affairs was kind of a farce. They gave me the impression that very few students actually get "academically dismissed" and that you are normally required to take time off from school (at least a semester) if you are, in fact, "academically dismissed." After meeting with them, I spent the next few weeks trying to meet with ALL of my teachers from 1L year. Only three of my teachers were actually in town and willing to meet. I met with them and the consensus was that our school does not really flunk people out. If you put forth a reasonable effort by reading and going to class, the administration, in most cases, will not kick you out. They also reassured me that I am not required to take time off after "academic dismissal."

After meeting with my teachers, I emailed Student Affairs and inquired about the re-admission process. They promptly responded saying that I need to fill out a form and write a personal statement on why I should get readmitted. If you complete this two step process by July 1st then the re-admission committee will "consider" your application for the upcoming fall semester. Surely enough, around July 12th I get a letter from the re-admission committee saying: Congratulations, you have been readmitted for the upcoming fall semester! The only catch is that I have to maintain my GPA above a 69 for the remainder of law school or else I will be permanently dismissed.

Let me just say that I am truly humbled by the re-admissions committee decision to re-accept me. Not many people get second chances, and I know that I am lucky. I am going to spend this upcoming fall 24/7 in the library and visiting my teacher's office hours. Although I am currently a curb bottom feeder, I am going to strive to work my way back up to the median. There are no excuses for how poorly I did my 1L year. Classes begin August 24th but I am still currently working at this PI lawyer's office. The guy is a complete a**hole even though I have steadily improved under his tutelage and have successfully completed many projects for him. It has been a good experience nonetheless, and I have learned a lot about how litigation works and how much I do not want to be a PI lawyer. I am thoroughly looking forward to handing in my two weeks notice right before classes start.
Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: 🍟💵🌲🍥 on July 23, 2015, 03:56:44 PM
Glad to hear you are not living under a bridge brother.
Got faith in you.
Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: Groundhog on July 24, 2015, 11:51:46 AM
Congratulations, and good luck. Everyone deserves a second chance. Let us know how it goes if you like.
Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: Citylaw on August 03, 2015, 09:59:20 AM
That's great and yea I know there are a bunch of people that claim schools have to flunk you out etc, but that is as usual random internet b.s.  Law schools are businesses they want to make money from their students who pay tuition. They are also not a-holes and want their students to succeed. If you did well enough on the LSAT and had a decent UGPA then you have the intelligence to pass the bar and have a successful legal career. That doesn't mean you will, but the potential is there and if you struggle 1L, but realize there are things you can do differently they are happy to readmit you.

It sounds like you learned a lot from the experience and will probably be a better attorney. You got your ass kicked 1L most lawyers don't get that kick in the ass until after the bar exam.

Keep working hard and good things will happen!
Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: loki13 on August 03, 2015, 11:06:13 AM
"That's great and yea I know there are a bunch of people that claim schools have to flunk you out etc, but that is as usual random internet b.s"

Well.... no. It depends on the school. Roughly speaking, if you're at one of the better schools, they will try to keep you in. They will work with you.

There are two areas of concern-
a. Scholarships: Because many schools give merit scholarships that are tied into GPA, students are at risk of losing these scholarships. But they won't "flunk out," they will just have difficult financial decisions to make.
b. Flunking out: There are certain schools that deliberately accept large numbers of students that will likely have difficulty in law school (low uGPA/ low LSAT). They have no qualms about flunking out a large number of these students (think of your Florida Coastals, your Cooleys). Here's why- USNWR ranks on, among other things, bar passage rates and employment success. These schools have no great desire to have their worst students graduate. For them, the first year is, quite literally, a sorting mechanism, paid for by the student.
Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: Citylaw on August 03, 2015, 11:31:00 AM
Yes they do.

Even Cooley and Florida Coastal would rather have students pay two years of tuition opposed to fail them out. If a student is clearly and I mean clearly not going to pass the bar at some point they have to fail them out, but flunking out students costs money and the reputation of people flunking out and telling everyone they know how much X school sucks is worse than even a poor ranking.

Cooley and Coastal know they are never going to be elite schools and there is no school that wants to kick any student out, but it of course happens. However, even if someone is academically dismissed and puts work in, shows competence, etc they are likely to let the student back in.

At my school I knew a girl that failed out 1L. She never attended class and when she did facebook the whole time, never did the work etc. She slacked off 1L and to no surprise she was dismissed. However, the school said she could reapply if she passed the baby-bar. She got her sh*t together and passed went on to graduate, passed the Cali bar, etc.

Other students didn't get the wake up call and were not readmitted.

Each student brings a school upwards of $30,000-$40,000 a year. They don't want to lose $60,000-$80,000 of income by dismissing a student that is capable.

As for the scholarships schools do entice students to enroll and make it hard to maintain the conditions. Again, it is  mostly about money above all else as everything in business ends up being.

No school wants a student to fail out. Ideally, a school would love all their students to graduate (while paying full tuition), pass the bar, get a job so the school can hit up the grads for donations later.

 





Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: loki13 on August 03, 2015, 11:59:37 AM
"Even Cooley and Florida Coastal would rather have students pay two years of tuition opposed to fail them out."

You're completely wrong. How do I know this? Because of, um, facts! Florida Coastal, despite curbing the practice, still has an attrition rate of 31% from 1L to 2L. Think about that. They are not working to keep those students in- that is *part of the business plan.* Quite literally, if that rate suddenly dropped in half, they wouldn't have the facilities and faculty to teach the 2L class.

I know we disagree sometimes CityLaw about opinions, but we shouldn't disagree about facts. Certain schools predicate their business models knowing that they will (and have to!) fail a certain percentage of the 1L class. These are easily ascertainable facts. Just like it's easily ascertainable whether or not a school has offered you a merit-based scholarship that requires you to have a GPA above an artificially-set class curve.

No, an anecdote that, "I knew a student, and it worked out okay," doesn't cut it. I knew a student that screwed up, and took an additional two years to finish- but I went to a school that worked with the student. As I pointed out, there are schools that have different business models.

Like this Coastal's.

Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: Citylaw on August 03, 2015, 12:37:58 PM
But you have to look at the facts with more depth. Yes 30.5% is the attrition no question, but it does not mean 30.5% failed out. http://www.lsac.org/docs/default-source/official-guide-2014/aba5320.pdf

The total attrition was 207 students.

83 of the 207 were for academic purposes.

123 was for other and 114 of these other were transfers.

So at the end of the day the academic attrition was a little over 10% not 30%.

The majority of the students that did really well transferred to other schools, which Florida Coastal probably did not like. 114 students transferring means they lost millions of dollars and they would certainly have loved for the 83 that  were dismissed for academic reasons to stay, but they have an obligation to dismiss someone that clearly will not pass the bar. However, if they are dismissed and show that they can learn from their mistakes a second chance is looming as again losing 83 students is millions more dollars lost in tuition.



People just look at attrition and assume it means everyone failed out, but at most T4's with high attrition the majority of it is due to transfers not failing out.


Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: loki13 on August 03, 2015, 01:47:17 PM
You have got to be kidding me.

First, these are best case scenario numbers, as their 1L class size has dropped almost in half (808 to 404 in four years). Meanwhile, their LSATs and uGPAs have cratered. As well as their bar passage rates. And they are still attrit'ing a large percentage of their students.

Also, if your enrollment is ~440, and you "only" attrit 83,  that's about 19% of your class. Not 10%. So one in five students. And that's considered good for them!

I honestly don't know what it will take to get through your head (given their documented bar passage rates, and the numbers)- their business model presupposes they will fail people.

And people like you, that defend this, are part of the problem. I honestly find it very hard to believe, given what we have just gone through, that anyone with two firing neurons, could still defend this.
Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: Citylaw on August 03, 2015, 02:09:34 PM
I am not even defending it.

Just saying the school does not want to dismiss people. They have lower admission standards, which means statistically there will be more academic dismissal, but no school anywhere wants to lose a paying student.

No law firm wants to lose a paying client, no Bank wants to lose a paying customer, etc.

Schools actively try to recruit students and they want to keep them. Particularly a school like Florida Coastal that is dealing with fringe students in the first place. However, if a 1L cannot get the basics of IRAC on an easy torts exam they got to go, but if everyone at Florida Coastal nailed their exams and it seemed each was fully capable of passing the bar Florida Coastal would love to keep collecting money.

Since you seem so adamant against this may I ask what a school gains by dismissing a student? Why would a school want that to happen?

It happens of course, but a school would rather have paying students unless you can think of a reason they wouldn't. I can't.

Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: 🍟💵🌲🍥 on August 05, 2015, 05:12:30 PM
You have got to be kidding me.

First, these are best case scenario numbers, as their 1L class size has dropped almost in half (808 to 404 in four years). Meanwhile, their LSATs and uGPAs have cratered. As well as their bar passage rates. And they are still attrit'ing a large percentage of their students.

Also, if your enrollment is ~440, and you "only" attrit 83,  that's about 19% of your class. Not 10%. So one in five students. And that's considered good for them!

I honestly don't know what it will take to get through your head (given their documented bar passage rates, and the numbers)- their business model presupposes they will fail people.

And people like you, that defend this, are part of the problem. I honestly find it very hard to believe, given what we have just gone through, that anyone with two firing neurons, could still defend this.
Attrition shows that the school either admits people who they shouldn't (scam)
or that they are a bad school (also scam)
Most likely a combo of the above.
Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: Citylaw on August 05, 2015, 05:15:08 PM
Or that their students transferred (not a scam).

No student should go into LS expecting to transfer, but if your in the Top 10% at Florida Coastal and can transfer into FSU or Florida and pay 1/3 of the Tuition to attend a better school why not Transfer.

Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: 🍟💵🌲🍥 on August 05, 2015, 06:46:38 PM
Or that their students transferred (not a scam).

No student should go into LS expecting to transfer, but if your in the Top 10% at Florida Coastal and can transfer into FSU or Florida and pay 1/3 of the Tuition to attend a better school why not Transfer.

schools overplay the transfer part of attrition. Most (if not vastly most) just straight up fail or quit.

And if you students of any value feel the need to flee, that says something as well.
Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: Citylaw on August 05, 2015, 07:20:27 PM
Not necessarily Transfers are a huge part of attrition. Florida Coastal reported losing 207 students and 114 were due to Transfers. Well over half of the attrition was due to transfers.

I don't think there is anything wrong with that I don't think anyone will argue Florida Coastal is some elite school, but it gives students a chance. For those that excel and can get into Florida or FSU second year and get in-state tuition at a more respected school why not transfer.

I don't think FCSL claims to be anything other than what it is an ABA school that will teach you the law.
Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: 🍟💵🌲🍥 on August 05, 2015, 08:05:28 PM
Not necessarily Transfers are a huge part of attrition. Florida Coastal reported losing 207 students and 114 were due to Transfers. Well over half of the attrition was due to transfers.

I don't think there is anything wrong with that I don't think anyone will argue Florida Coastal is some elite school, but it gives students a chance. For those that excel and can get into Florida or FSU second year and get in-state tuition at a more respected school why not transfer.

I don't think FCSL claims to be anything other than what it is an ABA school that will teach you the law.
I suppose I'm thinking more the Whittier and CBE schools more than anything else.
Still though, higher attrition than other schools says that SOMETHING is less than preferable from the one that is drastically higher than the industrial wide average. (be it people running away or anything else)
Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: loki13 on August 06, 2015, 08:00:34 AM
"Since you seem so adamant against this may I ask what a school gains by dismissing a student? Why would a school want that to happen?"

Because they *already have this planned out in their business model.* Just try and think about this for a second. Schools plan based on yields of students- for all their classes. This means that they (in this case, Florida Coastal) expect, *expect* that-
1. A certain small percentage of their students will do well enough to get the heck out.
2. That a large number of the partial (or even full!) scholarships that they gave out will not be renewed based upon unrealistic class ranks. So students will have a difficult decision. They expect, based upon the past, that the majority of these students will take on student loans to continue, and a minority will drop out.
3. That a certain percentage will simply fail out. Moreover, they expect (based on past years) that these students are less likely to be the scholarship students.

Now, why do they need all these students to leave? Because they don't have enough teachers for the upper level classes (or didn't, until admission cratered the last two years). In other words, this is all part of the business model. Moreover, they understood this, because they are required to maintain a certain bar passage rate- admitting terrible students allows them to get a full year tuition from them in cattle-call 1L classes from them, without worrying terribly about their bar passage rates.

This is so basic I have trouble understanding your lack of understanding.

Finally, anyone who goes to a school like this assuming they will transfer is taking a huge, huge risk. Because if something bad happens, you don't get to go to UF, or FSU, and pay 1/3 the tuition. You end up paying Harvard prices for a Florida Coastal degree, that doesn't give you a great shot at passing the Florida bar, and barely ranks among the top 10 degrees... in the state of Florida.
Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: Citylaw on August 06, 2015, 10:59:38 AM
Agreed, going to a law school expecting to transfer is a terrible idea. 

However, FCSL admits fringe students, but if all their students do great and are fully capable of passing the bar, which is unlikely to happen they would have millions of extra dollars in tuition. With these millions they could hire a few extra professors. They would much rather have the revenue stream and deal with the headache of hiring a few professors, but realistically that doesn't happen.

In summary does Florida Coastal plan on the students failing out, transferring, simply leaving etc? Of course, but they don't want it to happen. 

All businesses plan for revenue losses as they should, but no business wants to lose revenue.



Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: loki13 on August 06, 2015, 11:52:33 AM
"In summary does Florida Coastal plan on the students failing out, transferring, simply leaving etc? Of course, but they don't want it to happen."

OMG. Seriously. If they are planning on it, and they set the curve so that it will happen, and they (unlike other schools) don't have a process to let these students back in, and they don't have the facilities to let these students continue...

Then yes, they do want it to happen. It is their business model. They deliberately let in unqualified students, knowing that they will get tuition money for a year, and don't have to worry about their bar passage rates.

"All businesses plan for revenue losses as they should, but no business wants to lose revenue."

Do you not understand? They would lose revenue if they had to hire more teachers, get larger facilities, and worry about ABA accreditation problems ... in fact, because of the change in the legal landscape, they are currently worrying about ABA accreditation.

I honestly don't understand why you defend the worst of the worst. I know people that have gone to Fla. Coastal and have become fine attorneys, but I can't condone the business model of schools like this. They prey on information asymmetry. The people I know who went to Fla. Coastal and succeeded would have succeeded at other schools, and I've heard a lot of horror stories. (And we happen to be picking on Coastal- this applies to a few other schools as well.)
Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: 🍟💵🌲🍥 on August 06, 2015, 05:35:07 PM
Actually yeah that makes a lot of sense. There is a vacuum created and  a market will create itself to take that money. Heck, look at places like Cooley they set up campuses in towns where they KNOW there are established lawschools (UofM,MSU, etc) and scoop up the extras that can't make it anywhere else.

Caveat Emptor for sure, but its kind of hard to really mean that when dealing with obviously mentally inferior buyers. Marketing targets kids and high school dropouts on TV for a reason. They are easier to sell too. They are literally too stupid to know how stupid they are.

Heck many in CA, and cooley and a few others don't even require an undergrad degree and only require the most nominal of ceremonial sittings of the lsat.
They know what they are doing and don't care. They just want that money. Its why they let people stick around on AP for so long to stretch out the funds and then graduate people with a 2.0 GPA and blame them if they fail the bar exam. They give full rides to people with ok GPA and LSAT knowing they can then point to them and go "oh they did ok in life, so you have no excuse" which is equate to someone buying both a donkey and a race horse and then saying "they are the same now, there is no reason why ones chances should differ from the other"

It's 100% a legal scam for a lot of these schools.
Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: Citylaw on August 07, 2015, 10:17:37 AM
For the non-aba schools that might be true. However, Cooley, FCSL, etc require a college degree and an LSAT score.

However, people are adults and make their decisions. Many of the people really want to go to law school and for some it will work out and others it won't.

None of these schools are forcing anyone to attend law school. These incoming students are college graduates that took the LSAT and applied. If Cooley is the only school they got into they had better realize that it will be an uphill battle. Many do, but I have met people that were admitted to Cooley that think they will be millionaires within a year or two of graduation and Cooley can't be blamed for that kind of unrealistic expectations. I have also met really smart Cooley grads and at the end of the day people are responsible for their choices.

The non-aba schools that don't require a degree or LSAT do take advantage, but the ABA schools have some standards.

Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: loki13 on August 07, 2015, 11:08:10 AM
" If Cooley is the only school they got into they had better realize that it will be an uphill battle."

As has been shown in various court cases, certain schools have preyed upon these unrealistic expectations. Most schools have published unrealistic, misleading, and false employment statistics. Other schools make it very hard to get an accurate assessment of the difficulty of, say, maintaining a scholarship or even staying in school, as most students are not aware of the differences between undergrad and a forced class rank with a curve.

As a supporter of free markets, I don't have an issue with the Cooleys and the Coastals of the world- if people want to take on that debt for a lottery ticket, or believe they can do it, that is their decision. What I do take issue with is when people (like you) minimize the risks, or don't acknowledge that these schools have an actual business plan than involved screwing over some of their students- sorry, admitting students that will likely not succeed, and not giving them any recourse when they fail out, and planning for that. Oh, and issuing scholarships with the knowledge that a significant portion of the student body will be unable to keep them. You know, little things like that.

My shorter version is- if your answer is the Cooleys and the Coastals of the world, you should make sure that you have asked the right question.
Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: Citylaw on August 07, 2015, 01:36:39 PM
As far as I know nobody has won any of the lawsuits against the schools. You can sue anyone for any reason, but these are college educated students making a decision.

If you want to be a lawyer people are going to present facts in a way that is misleading and don't get me started on a rant about rankings, polls, statistics you can make them say whatever you want.

The scholarship thing is something many people take issue, but I played college basketball and the same things they recruit kids and if they don't hack it they lose their scholarships and are f'ed and those are high schools, which is a way more messed up system. However, knowing this and wanting to be a lawyer guess what I did when my school offered me a scholarship? I asked what the conditions were they said 3.0 I then asked how many people have a 3.0 at the end 1L and they responded 35% and I knew then there was a 65% chance I would lose it.

These are people that want to be lawyers, but don't ask basic questions. No school anywhere guarantees a job and if you are a college graduate with a decent enough LSAT score to get into an ABA school you are not an idiot. If you don't have the balls or experience to ask questions when you are getting money that is your own fault.

I do take issue with schools that don't require a B.A. or LSAT score those people are more susceptible, but anyone at an ABA school graduated from college. If they think a law school scams for not asking questions try a credit card company, bank, car salesman, broker etc.



Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: 🍟💵🌲🍥 on August 07, 2015, 07:24:28 PM
For the non-aba schools that might be true. However, Cooley, FCSL, etc require a college degree and an LSAT score.

However, people are adults and make their decisions. Many of the people really want to go to law school and for some it will work out and others it won't.

None of these schools are forcing anyone to attend law school. These incoming students are college graduates that took the LSAT and applied. If Cooley is the only school they got into they had better realize that it will be an uphill battle. Many do, but I have met people that were admitted to Cooley that think they will be millionaires within a year or two of graduation and Cooley can't be blamed for that kind of unrealistic expectations. I have also met really smart Cooley grads and at the end of the day people are responsible for their choices.

The non-aba schools that don't require a degree or LSAT do take advantage, but the ABA schools have some standards.
As I stated Ritualistic only for the LSAT, and NO they do NOT require a full undergrad degree (research it, I can post a link if you need me to, but its on their site) They only require an Associates Degree and a 140 range LSAT score with a 2.0 GPA.

As to winning lawsuits, so? The fact that you can't discharge debt doesn't make it stop being debt, nor does a bad deal stop being a bad deal if you can't sue over it.
Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: loki13 on August 08, 2015, 01:00:21 PM
"If they think a law school scams for not asking questions try a credit card company, bank, car salesman, broker etc."

I know I'm old fashioned, but I have four bizarre beliefs-

1. The first is that people, in general, should be honorable. And that regardless of your profession, you should not be trying to scam money out of the gullible that may not be asking questions, and you should not try and predicate your business model on other people's failures.

2. The second is that academic institutions should have slightly higher standards than, say, a typical used car lot.

3. The third is that the legal profession, itself, should be an honorable one, and that law schools should inculcate those values. They shouldn't exist to scam students and throw them into an environment where students are taught that cheating and scamming is a virtue.

4. Finally, I believe that as a practicing attorney, I have a certain duty to warn those who come after me. That I shouldn't be giving out false information, and that I should warn students of the possible problems of the worst schools. Instead of obfuscating the issues and placing those problems back on them with a sunny, "Everyone can do it if you just want it badly enough!"
Title: Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
Post by: 🍟💵🌲🍥 on August 08, 2015, 03:21:40 PM
Who wants to bet that "certain" schools are reading this right now debating whether or not to sue for IP addresses?

Hint: I personally know alumni of this "certain" school who said that staff ONLY told students they do EXACTLY that or this EXACT thread (and a handful of other popular ones, as well as googling their own name daily just to see whatever pops up to get mad about)