Law School Discussion

Law Students => Online Law Schools => Topic started by: Tonyworks4u on April 27, 2015, 09:16:26 AM

Title: Graduation
Post by: Tonyworks4u on April 27, 2015, 09:16:26 AM
I finished Novus Law School all completely distance.  All things are possible if only you would believe !
Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: vanceap3 on April 27, 2015, 03:41:07 PM
Congrats Tony!
Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: RedBeardVII on May 25, 2015, 10:15:03 PM
Hi, I've heard something about this NOVUS law school joke (I don't remember which website), but I don't get it.

Can somebody fill me in, please?
Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: 🍟💵🌲🍥 on May 26, 2015, 01:09:47 PM
No joke. Its unaccredited and not accepted by ANY state bar. In some states its ILLEGAL to even put it on a job application! (you can go to JAIL!!!!!)
Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: Citylaw on May 26, 2015, 01:15:56 PM
I find it highly unlikely anyone will go to jail for putting a school they attended on an application.

It may not be recognized by a state bar, but there is no way anyone is going to jail for applying to a job.
Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: Maintain FL 350 on May 26, 2015, 01:20:10 PM
I find it highly unlikely anyone will go to jail for putting a school they attended on an application.

It may not be recognized by a state bar, but there is no way anyone is going to jail for applying to a job.

Agreed. The only way I could imagine someone getting into trouble would be if they claimed to be a lawyer and practiced law without a license. Just putting the degree on your resume would not be illegal unless you did it with an intent to deceive. 
Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: Citylaw on May 26, 2015, 01:58:08 PM
I don't think any legal employer would be fooled either by someone faking to have a law license, despite what happens on Suits.

Even if you did lie on it etc, I could not imagine any D.A. anywhere taking a exaggerating on resume case to criminal court. We would all be guilty of puffery on our resumes!

 

Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: 🍟💵🌲🍥 on May 26, 2015, 04:33:52 PM
People HAVE gone to jail for it. Is it "likely" to happen to you? I don't know. I don't care.
Search local laws people. It varies by location.

Its like when you say you don't have a felony but you do and sign the 7-11 job application. WILL they get you arrested? No. IS it perjury? According to the sheet it sure is.
Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: Maintain FL 350 on May 26, 2015, 05:35:23 PM
It is absolutely, positively NOT perjury to put an unaccredited JD on your resume. Your resume is not a sworn document.

Filling out an application which states that the information provided is true to the best of your knowledge may be different. Holding yourself out to the public as "Mr. Smith, J.D." may also be prohibited, depending on the state. It depends. Certain states do regulate the use of unaccredited titles/degrees, but I believe the prohibition would only extend to instances where the unrecognized degree is being used in a somewhat deceptive manner. For example, if you were a teacher and you claimed an unaccredited degree in order to get a pay raise, that's probably prohibited.
Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: Citylaw on May 26, 2015, 10:49:34 PM
Honestly, please find me that person that has gone to jail for putting Novus on their resume. That is a golden lawsuit.

Can you provide a link verifying these incarcerated Novus Students? If it has  actually happened I would be fascinated to learn more about it.
Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: 🍟💵🌲🍥 on May 26, 2015, 10:58:29 PM
It is absolutely, positively NOT perjury to put an unaccredited JD on your resume. Your resume is not a sworn document.

Filling out an application which states that the information provided is true to the best of your knowledge may be different. Holding yourself out to the public as "Mr. Smith, J.D." may also be prohibited, depending on the state. It depends. Certain states do regulate the use of unaccredited titles/degrees, but I believe the prohibition would only extend to instances where the unrecognized degree is being used in a somewhat deceptive manner. For example, if you were a teacher and you claimed an unaccredited degree in order to get a pay raise, that's probably prohibited.
................not sure you read what I wrote..............reread it. Separate topics.
But YES lies on a job application CAN be perjury (many say it right on them in fact) since it is a signed writing that you are argreeing to be sworn to (it doesn't have to be in court or even directly related to a court case in any way in many states)
Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: 🍟💵🌲🍥 on May 26, 2015, 11:01:35 PM
Honestly, please find me that person that has gone to jail for putting Novus on their resume. That is a golden lawsuit.

Can you provide a link verifying these incarcerated Novus Students? If it has  actually happened I would be fascinated to learn more about it.
HOW would it be a "golden lawsuit" ? HOW?

As for an exact case............read what I wrote.........I know its illegal. I know of people who have been arrested for using fake degrees. Not sure its that exact degree.
But YES, Novus IS listed on the lists of ILLEGAL degrees for certain places (Hint: Texas is one of them)
This isn't anything even  remotely new.
Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: 🍟💵🌲🍥 on May 26, 2015, 11:09:57 PM
I know that we ended up bouncing between a few topics here folks, but if you want an example of someone being arrested for lies on a resume............ok. Here is one. The guy wasn't a lawyer. He wasn't using a fake license. Nothing like that.

And come on now, any 1L knows the difference between "mere puffery" and fraud and/or just doing/using something illegal.

http://www.baynews9.com/content/news/baynews9/news/article.html/content/news/articles/bn9/2014/5/21/polk_state_professor.html

WINTER HAVEN --

A Polk State College professor whom authorities say falsely claimed he had a doctorate degree has been arrested and charged with grand theft.

David Scott Broxterman, 55, was arrested Wednesday morning and charged with grand theft over $100,000 and cheating. The State Attorney's Office said he submitted fake transcripts to Polk State claiming he earned a doctorate degree from the University of South Florida in 2007 and that he displayed a forged diploma in his office.

Broxterman's salary from 2009 to 2014 totaled $258,759.71, according to the State Attorney's office. The grand theft charge is based on him collecting the salary under false pretenses.


According to the arrest affidavit, the State Attorney's Office opened an investigation after receiving information that Broxterman did not earn the doctorate degree required for his position.

Polk State first hired Broxterman as an adjunct instructor in 2009, based on his claim he had obtained a PhD in organizational management from USF, and later hired him to the full-time faculty position of business administration professor, the State Attorney's Office said.

Assistant State Attorney Brian Haas said he examined the transcripts Broxterman submitted to Polk State before being hired, compared them to an actual set of USF transcripts, and saw that they were printed in the wrong color and format and included numbers to courses that did not exist.

The State Attorney's Office executed a search warrant of Broxterman's office on May 12 and recovered the diploma, which was easily identified as fake, the arrest affidavit said. According to the affidavit, the diploma had a signature from USF President Judy C. Genshaft that should have been Judy L. Genshaft, the wrong color and placement of the USF seal and the word "Board" misspelled "Baord."

Authorities said Polk State did "everything possible" to cooperate with the investigation.

"Polk State College is a very fine institution of higher learning in our community," Haas said in a news release. "The college has cooperated fully in this investigation and has already taken steps to prevent this from happening again."

Broxterman, who lives in Lakeland, was seemingly well thought of by students.

Its a shock that this man who taught me so much and has done so much for the school is not who he says he is," said Anthony Bates. He was a phenomenal teacher he made sure everything was by the book. We were reading what we were supposed to that we were learning the things we were supposed to regarding organizational structure and how businesses should be ran,


Broxterman had an overall rating of 4.9 out of 5 on the popular website ratemyprofessor.com.

"Talk about a teacher that is actively involved at PSC and (he) has a heart of gold!" one student wrote on the website. "His teaching methods are based on 'selling,' which gives real-life examples to students of what they need in the future! You EARN your grade! If you put the effort, you WILL get your A! Its up to you! I feel honored to meet Dr. B! Truly an inspiration in my life forever."

Broxterman is being held in the Polk County Jail without bond pending his first appearance hearing
Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: 🍟💵🌲🍥 on May 26, 2015, 11:19:32 PM
And as an example of it (and others) being listed as ILLEGAL
http://www.thecb.state.tx.us/index.cfm?objectid=EF4C3C3B-EB44-4381-6673F760B3946FBB

Institutions Whose Degrees are Illegal to Use in Texas

Consonant with its responsibilities under Chapter 61 of the Texas Education Code and rules promulgated pursuant thereto, the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board annually reviews the institutions included on this list.

"Fraudulent or substandard degree" means a degree conferred in Texas in violation of the Texas Education Code; conferred in another state in violation of that state's laws; conferred in another state by an institution that was not accredited by an accreditor recognized by the Coordinating Board and that has not been approved by the Coordinating Board for its degrees to be used in Texas; or conferred outside the United States by an institution that the Coordinating Board determines is not the equivalent of an accredited or authorized degree. (Texas Educational Code, Chapter 61, Section 61.302)

The Texas Penal Code (Section 32.52) prohibits the use of fraudulent or substandard degrees "in a written or oral advertisement or other promotion of a business; or with the intent to: obtain employment; obtain a license or certificate to practice a trade, profession, or occupation; obtain a promotion, a compensation or other benefit, or an increase in compensation or other benefit, in employment or in the practice of a trade, profession, or occupation; obtain admission to an educational program in this state; or gain a position in government with authority over another person, regardless of whether the actor receives compensation for the position." Violation of this law is a Class B misdemeanor.



Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: Citylaw on May 27, 2015, 01:03:25 AM
That is not an answer to the question show me Novus Grads arrested.

The professor claimed to go a institution that he never attended. That is fraud, but getting a degree from Novus is not a crime.

Big difference.

You said Novus grads were arrested and went to jail. I really want that story.
Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: Citylaw on May 27, 2015, 10:12:08 AM
So to sum it all up if a Novus Law Grad claims to be licensed to practice law and is not then a crime has been committed. Pretending to be licensed when you are not is the unauthorized practice of law and a crime etc. However, even I as an ABA law school graduate licensed in California cannot go into a New York Court and say I am licensed, because I am not licensed in New York and saying I was would be a crime.   A Harvard grad that never passed or took the bar is also not licensed and has as much right to represent someone in court as an unlicensed Novus Grad does. If an unlicensed Harvard grad goes int court and claims to be licensed then the Harvard grad committed a crime.

If a Novus Grad somehow, becomes licensed to practice law in a state then they are licensed to practice law. Whether a Novus grad can obtain a license is a question I can't answer, but I do know that attending a school and putting a school that you actually attended on your resume is not a crime. If you claim that the degree you got from Novus makes you a licensed surgeon, therapist, etc again that would a be a crime, but if attended Novus Law School and graduate from Novus Law School then saying you attended Novus law school is not a crime.

  In all honesty, if a Novus Grad has been arrested, convicted, etc for telling the truth on their resume then I really want to know more about it and please share.

I would not recommend going to an unaccredited school, but you will not go to jail for it. If Novus is accredited by a state bar or something then more power to it, but I don't know anything about the school other than it is not ABA approved. However, there are plenty of successful California Bar School graduates out there and if a Novus Grad gets licensed to practice law then they have as much right as any other attorney in that state to practice law.



Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: 🍟💵🌲🍥 on May 27, 2015, 10:56:31 AM
That is not an answer to the question show me Novus Grads arrested.

The professor claimed to go a institution that he never attended. That is fraud, but getting a degree from Novus is not a crime.

Big difference.

You said Novus grads were arrested and went to jail. I really want that story.
I honestly can't imagine adding more qualifier or having it more spoon fed than as I ACTUALLY WROTE it.
Go back and read it a loop if you want (all you have to do is scroll up)
I NEVER said that they "did" go to jail (just that they can-and I spoon fed an example to go that a ten second google search could find)
Side topic (that I went out of my way to explain were side topics) were brought up on resumes and a few other topics as well (thus some of my other content)

It is that simple.
Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: 🍟💵🌲🍥 on May 27, 2015, 10:59:24 AM
So to sum it all up if a Novus Law Grad claims to be licensed to practice law and is not then a crime has been committed. Pretending to be licensed when you are not is the unauthorized practice of law and a crime etc. However, even I as an ABA law school graduate licensed in California cannot go into a New York Court and say I am licensed, because I am not licensed in New York and saying I was would be a crime.   A Harvard grad that never passed or took the bar is also not licensed and has as much right to represent someone in court as an unlicensed Novus Grad does. If an unlicensed Harvard grad goes int court and claims to be licensed then the Harvard grad committed a crime.

If a Novus Grad somehow, becomes licensed to practice law in a state then they are licensed to practice law. Whether a Novus grad can obtain a license is a question I can't answer, but I do know that attending a school and putting a school that you actually attended on your resume is not a crime. If you claim that the degree you got from Novus makes you a licensed surgeon, therapist, etc again that would a be a crime, but if attended Novus Law School and graduate from Novus Law School then saying you attended Novus law school is not a crime.

  In all honesty, if a Novus Grad has been arrested, convicted, etc for telling the truth on their resume then I really want to know more about it and please share.

I would not recommend going to an unaccredited school, but you will not go to jail for it. If Novus is accredited by a state bar or something then more power to it, but I don't know anything about the school other than it is not ABA approved. However, there are plenty of successful California Bar School graduates out there and if a Novus Grad gets licensed to practice law then they have as much right as any other attorney in that state to practice law.
mentioning that apples grow on trees (as true as that is) doesn't change that they have seeds
.............can't imagine how this is hard for anyone with a GED let alone a JD.
Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: Citylaw on May 27, 2015, 11:18:20 AM
Your story involves a Professor who said he attended a University and earned a Doctorate, but he never attended the University or earned a doctorate. He went on to create a forged diploma. That is obviously a crime.

However, attending Novus Law School and saying you attended Novus Law School is a not a crime.

I was actually very interested in learning about Novus Grads being prosecuted for telling the truth on their resume, but it was a pointless exaggeration. The internet is well known for pointless exaggerations and it is probably good for boards like this. 

Seriously, if you do hear of Novus Grads going to jail for saying they attended a school they actually attended please share on this thread.



Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: Maintain FL 350 on May 27, 2015, 12:32:01 PM
Two points:

1) The FL story is inapplicable because that guy clearly lied about having any degree, not just an unaccredited degree. The intent to deceive was obvious.

2) The TX statute you cited pretty much backs up what I posted earlier: if you use an unaccredited degree to gain pecuniary benefits or to otherwise deceive, then you have committed a crime in certain jurisdictions. In other jurisdictions, it would be totally fine.

Even in TX, however, just listing the degree does not appear to be a crime. You would have to somehow use the title to gain a financial benefit. Don't worry, when you go to law school they will teach you how to read statutory language.   
Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: Citylaw on May 27, 2015, 01:13:17 PM
Exactly and if someone went to Novus Law School and  held themselves out as a lawyer obtained payment and did not have a license to practice law then it would be a crime.

However, if someone gets a license to practice law in Texas with a Novus Degree then they are a licensed lawyer. I don't know if a Novus Grad could even get a license to practice law in Texas or anywhere, but if they did then they are a lawyer.

Additionally, there are countless City, County and Local Regulations that are never enforced. I am a City Attorney and know there are several misdemeanors in our Municipal Code that are completely illegal to enforce and we don't.   If a Novus Grad has been incarcerated for saying they attended a school that they attended then I really want to hear about it.

 I would be really interested to read more about, but I find it very unlikely that it has ever occurred. Even if it didn't occur as Novus if any student was arrested for simply attending any of the schools on that list please share it. I am sincerely interested to learn more about how that occurred, but again I doubt it has ever happened, but crazier things have happened in this world.




Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: Maintain FL 350 on May 27, 2015, 02:41:54 PM
Exactly and if someone went to Novus Law School and  held themselves out as a lawyer obtained payment and did not have a license to practice law then it would be a crime.

Although I definitely agree with that statement, it does sound like the TX statute goes a little further. It seems to say that you can't use an unaccredited degree to obtain a financial benefit. So, if you applied for a job as a law professor and used an unaccredited degree as your qualification, then you'd presumably be in violation.

Here's where I think these kinds of rules would be really hard to enforce, though:

What if a guy applies for a job as say, an insurance adjuster and lists the Novus degree on his resume? He's not saying "Hire me because I'm a lawyer". In fact, the degree isn't even required for the job.

The prosecutor would have to prove that he listed the degree in order to get hired, and that his intent was to make the employer rely on the degree. At the very least you would have to establish that the defendant knew the employer was relying on the degree. That would be very hard to prove. If the employer calls the guy and says "What's this Novus degree?", and the guy simply says "It's an unaccredited law degree", then I think there is no violation at all. At that point there would be no intent.
Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: Citylaw on May 27, 2015, 03:03:06 PM
Interesting analysis and again who knows.  I find it unlikely a prosecutor would take that case in the first place, but in the event a prosecutor did take the case, I believe there are several defenses. First and foremost it is restricting Freedom of Speech and Association., why can't you say you attended a school that you attended and why would you be prosecuted for associating with an institution.

I also think it would violate privileges and immunities particularly if there are licensed  NOVUS lawyers out there.  It could also be considered a regulatory taking. If X student paid the tuition, spent the time etc and had this education and was penalized for earning it that could also be an issue.

Then as a low test as it is what is the rational basis for preventing someone from saying they attended a school they actually attended.

 There are so many issues with that law as applied, which is why I would be fascinated to hear of any actual case where someone was prosecuted for attending Novus or any of the schools mentioned in that list. I find it highly unlikely it has ever occurred, but again if there is an actual case I would love to read about it.

Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: 🍟💵🌲🍥 on May 27, 2015, 03:47:30 PM
Your story involves a Professor who said he attended a University and earned a Doctorate, but he never attended the University or earned a doctorate. He went on to create a forged diploma. That is obviously a crime.

However, attending Novus Law School and saying you attended Novus Law School is a not a crime.

I was actually very interested in learning about Novus Grads being prosecuted for telling the truth on their resume, but it was a pointless exaggeration. The internet is well known for pointless exaggerations and it is probably good for boards like this. 

Seriously, if you do hear of Novus Grads going to jail for saying they attended a school they actually attended please share on this thread.
holy...........*&^%.................you know there were other parties posting here too right? You read their stuff right? You realize (again, I spoon feed it to you AGAIN) that I responding to MULTIPLE topics right?????
-And AGAIN I listed how it CAN get you arrested using Novus (full link and everything)

I give up man. Enjoy life.
Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: 🍟💵🌲🍥 on May 27, 2015, 03:48:54 PM
Two points:

1) The FL story is inapplicable because that guy clearly lied about having any degree, not just an unaccredited degree. The intent to deceive was obvious.

2) The TX statute you cited pretty much backs up what I posted earlier: if you use an unaccredited degree to gain pecuniary benefits or to otherwise deceive, then you have committed a crime in certain jurisdictions. In other jurisdictions, it would be totally fine.

Even in TX, however, just listing the degree does not appear to be a crime. You would have to somehow use the title to gain a financial benefit. Don't worry, when you go to law school they will teach you how to read statutory language.   
1. That is applicable to the side topic of "resumes are mere puffery, you can't go to jail for lies on a resume" that was posted. (as I clearly spelled out)
2. I agree with what you wrote for #2, we are in total agreement (and always have been) on this part.
Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: Citylaw on May 27, 2015, 04:16:15 PM
All I  asked for was an actual case where someone went to jail. There is probably a statute out there that says you can go to jail for using expletives on the internet so hypothetically you could go to jail for that. You made a claim of Novus Grads possibly going to jail for attending Novus. I am seriously interested in hearing about that or anyone every going to jail under the law you mentioned.  Not trying to be a smart-ass or anything, but there are numerous unconstitutional laws on the books and what you cited seems unconstitutional, but I have been wrong before.

Again, I am genuinely interested in hearing about any Novus Grad or a graduate of any of the schools mentioned in the link you posted actually going to jail.












Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: legalpractitioner on June 01, 2015, 08:36:45 PM
IMO law book salesmen, bar exam failures, questionable Nigerian attorneys and disbarred attorneys are the only ones who routinely use the JD suffix.  So I don't see why a Novus graduate couldn't use the title.
Title: Re: Graduation
Post by: 🍟💵🌲🍥 on June 01, 2015, 09:39:53 PM
Not sure why I bothered to read the same stuff in a loop (shame on me I guess :P)

I refer you to my previous posts (in a never ending loop)