Law School Discussion

Law Students => Online Law Schools => Topic started by: legalpractitioner on October 01, 2014, 08:34:18 PM

Title: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: legalpractitioner on October 01, 2014, 08:34:18 PM
Anyone have any idea what happened with the Touro College lawsuit against Novus for giving out bogus law degrees?

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/fbem/DocumentDisplayServlet?documentId=q0dfe8CsmVg6pOF1P6L/iQ==&system=prod

http://www.jdjournal.com/2013/10/14/novus-university-law-school-charged-with-giving-sham-degrees/
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: legalpractitioner on October 01, 2014, 08:39:18 PM
Novus answered with a general denial March 12, 2014, nothing since:

http://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/iscroll/SQLData.jsp?IndexNo=159319-2013&Submit2=Search
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on October 01, 2014, 09:04:40 PM
This seems weak standing to me. People "often apply", so what?
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: legalpractitioner on October 02, 2014, 08:38:56 AM
It is a class action seeking a declaratory ruling that Novus degrees are worthless. Touro alleges Novus is deceiving both students and other law programs by claiming it is a "law school."  Graduates of Novus tried to get admitted to Touro and then apparently tried to force their admission as graduates of a foreign law school. I think the lawsuit has merit because practice of law and law schools are a regulated category.  Here you have what appears to be non attorneys instructing by email and multiple choice.

Touro is doing everyone a great service; on the other hand the state bars, in particular California where Novus seems to be based, seems to be remiss in its duties to protect the public and legitimate online law schools from an alleged scam.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: Maintain FL 350 on October 02, 2014, 10:45:35 AM
Just curious, how did Touro establish standing? Because former Novus students applied to Touro? I can see how the former students would meet the requirements for class certification, but not Touro.

Either way, good fr them. I hope they win and that the state bars crack down on this nonsense.   
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: legalpractitioner on October 02, 2014, 11:30:42 AM
The complaint said a Novus grad launched a frivolous lawsuit against Touro, when Touro would not honor their bogus degree.  So Touro had to pay legal fees because Novus was falsely telling grads they had a "foreign law degree" and all they had to do is enroll for a LLM to qualify for the bar.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: Groundhog on October 02, 2014, 12:12:15 PM
The complaint said a Novus grad launched a frivolous lawsuit against Touro, when Touro would not honor their bogus degree.  So Touro had to pay legal fees because Novus was falsely telling grads they had a "foreign law degree" and all they had to do is enroll for a LLM to qualify for the bar.

Clearly, this demonstrates the ABA needs to approve more schools!
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: legalpractitioner on October 02, 2014, 12:23:15 PM

Clearly, this demonstrates the ABA needs to approve more schools!

LOL. Tells me the state bars are not doing their jobs.  According to the lawsuit, Novus operates in California.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: Groundhog on October 02, 2014, 12:58:24 PM
Hmm, what action would you recommend the state bars take? The State Bar of California is not an accreditation or business licensing agency so they can't order a business to shut down. All they can do is "inform you that Novus Law School does not have degree-granting authority from any recognized U.S. educational entity," as you noted in the other thread (http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/index.php?topic=4028640.0).
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: Maintain FL 350 on October 02, 2014, 01:46:41 PM
In CA the state bar can and does accredit law schools, but this is inapplicable to Novus since they have not (to the best of my knowledge) sought CA accreditation. It seems like the only power the bar has is to threaten accredited law schools with a revocation of accreditation. But if you're not accredited anyway...

The State Attorney General is probably the one who has the real authority here. Considering that Kamala Harris doesn't seem interested in anything except becoming governor, I doubt if anything will happen.   
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: Groundhog on October 02, 2014, 02:38:13 PM
You are correct, but I mean that the State Bar isn't generally an accreditation agency.

I haven't seen anywhere currently where Novus Law School fraudulently claims they allow California or any other bar admission besides DC without attorney study, so I'm not sure on what grounds the California AG could sue. Novus may have claimed something different in the past, but Ms. Harris has only been in office a few years.

It does appear to be a degree mill, but I don't see anything fraudulent about it. It sounds like the facts in the past in the Touro v. Novus case were different.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: legalpractitioner on October 02, 2014, 03:19:53 PM
Cal Bar instead of Touro should have filed this - it is not like they don't have staff.  After all they go after lawyers for minor to major infractions of the rules - seems they could have done it if they wanted to or at least referred it to the AG.  If it's a diploma mill as Touro alleges than you can be certain they are in violation of at least a few laws in California.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: Groundhog on October 02, 2014, 05:13:05 PM
California is notorious for having almost no statutory authority to regulate degree mills and for-profit institutions. Also, as Novus does not claim to offer degrees that are approved by the California Bar, I don't see what the Bar would have to do with it.

See: http://www.examiner.com/article/california-tops-list-of-u-s-states-with-most-diploma-mills
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diploma_mills_in_the_United_States#Legal_status
http://www.geteducated.com/college-degree-mills/347-top-10-states-diploma-mill-degree-mills
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: legalpractitioner on October 02, 2014, 05:56:37 PM
I guess Novus did it's research when it chose California as its operation HQ.  I will say it is virtually impossible to get the AG's office to act on a consumer complaint.  The fact that Touro got Novus served and to answer is impressive.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on October 02, 2014, 06:15:33 PM
The complaint said a Novus grad launched a frivolous lawsuit against Touro, when Touro would not honor their bogus degree.  So Touro had to pay legal fees because Novus was falsely telling grads they had a "foreign law degree" and all they had to do is enroll for a LLM to qualify for the bar.
Don't law schools have the right to refuse admissions to anyone?
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on October 02, 2014, 06:20:35 PM
I think Novus gets away with this since they are incorporated in the Marshall Islands (which is kind of its own nation, and kind of America) but it also does most of its business in CA.

I think since they disclose they are not approved to sit the bar with it alone that it will win. CA lets pretty much anything call itself a "school". Albeit I am reading their disclosures as an ABA law school graduate, and I can just imagine the person who barely earned a GED enrolling by doing their "undergrad" at Novus too (which they offer) At one point (pre LSAT) I almost fell for SCUPS(no longer in existence) which to be fair can sit the CA bar but was unaccredited and not good for the majority of the nation.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on October 02, 2014, 06:24:20 PM
I think that http://www.bppe.ca.gov/ would have the best grounds for a suit since in theory they control who can and can't be legally a "school" operating in CA. The Marshall Islands argument might come up, but I think "International Shoe" would be a winning counter argument to that.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: Groundhog on October 02, 2014, 08:06:18 PM
I think that http://www.bppe.ca.gov/ would have the best grounds for a suit since in theory they control who can and can't be legally a "school" operating in CA. The Marshall Islands argument might come up, but I think "International Shoe" would be a winning counter argument to that.

International Shoe is about jurisdiction. The issue here is if the 2009 statute that re-created the BPPE even covers online schools or how California or any state can regulate them. It does not appear to do so. As you said, it appears that Novus is based in the Marshall Islands, not in California as was suggested.

I don't know what's worse: the fact that some of these students spent years and thousands of dollars thinking they could become an attorney...or that they actually did. “Novus graduates often apply and are erroneously accepted to American Bar Association-accredited programs,” Touro charged.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on October 02, 2014, 09:26:54 PM
I mentioned in for the sake of jurisdiction (also why I mentioned marshal islands)
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on October 02, 2014, 09:30:37 PM
Personally I don't see why it would a "bad" thing if later accepted into ABA programs. If an LLM let you in, good. As long as they can keep up (if) go for it.

I would support Novus (and the ones like it) for someone IF, 1. Its legal to use an unaccredited degree in their jurisdiction (as far as strictly for resumes), and 2. They were going to "Read for the law" anyways and ALREADY had it all lined up.

They give false hope telling people that they "could" do that (good luck if joe from the street with no connections) and list the SSA advocates and stuff, which  is also largely misleading since you could do that without even a GED legally.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: legalpractitioner on October 03, 2014, 08:05:04 AM
Novus has no faculty, no accreditation, and no lawyers apparently associated with it. Except based on misrepresentation, how can that be grounds for admission into an accredited LLM program?  Diploma mill degrees are never valid, that is what Touro is seeking in the way of a finding by a court.  Allowing a Novus grad to take a bar would be a complete undermining of the entire system. California online grads have to take the First Year Law Exam - Novus grads nothing.  Additionally, Novus is not a foreign law school.  They are simply an alleged offshore corporation not recognized as a school in their home jurisdiction RMI or anywhere else.  Touro will get discovery and if Novus complies, more facts will come out.

Novus is almost certainly an IBC and therefore cannot legally do business or trade in their home jurisdiction, the RMI.

http://www.ocra.com/jurisdictions/marshall.asp

The few jurisdictions that offer lawyer supervised study have no need of Novus nor would any attorney want anything to do with them IMO.

Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on October 03, 2014, 10:52:50 AM
Novus has no faculty, no accreditation, and no lawyers apparently associated with it. Except based on misrepresentation, how can that be grounds for admission into an accredited LLM program?  Diploma mill degrees are never valid, that is what Touro is seeking in the way of a finding by a court.  Allowing a Novus grad to take a bar would be a complete undermining of the entire system. California online grads have to take the First Year Law Exam - Novus grads nothing.  Additionally, Novus is not a foreign law school.  They are simply an alleged offshore corporation not recognized as a school in their home jurisdiction RMI or anywhere else.  Touro will get discovery and if Novus complies, more facts will come out.

Novus is almost certainly an IBC and therefore cannot legally do business or trade in their home jurisdiction, the RMI.

http://www.ocra.com/jurisdictions/marshall.asp

The few jurisdictions that offer lawyer supervised study have no need of Novus nor would any attorney want anything to do with them IMO.
Let the LLM programs decide that for themselves. I know some state bars don't even care about undergrad (crazy but true) as long as you have the JD for example. The LLM (when not being used for a license) still might hurt an ABA grads feelings to see a nonaccredited grad get accepted into, but you either are good enough to pass or you are not. If they can cut muster, let them. If they barely make it, easier curve for the rest of us. I honestly say let that be between them and the LLM program.

Plus if an admissions committee is opening the flood gates that easy to let people in, that strikes me as them needing to clean their own home before asking others to clean theirs.

This strikes me as an internal affair. If they need to make it an external affair, ask the ABA to pass a ruling on it.
Personally it wouldn't hurt my feelings if they let people with no prior education at all into the LLM as long as the school knew what they were doing when they did it(and if not, the fault is on the school IMHO)

Novus is still a scam though, but caveat emptor
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on October 03, 2014, 11:00:13 AM
It looks like this was discussed here (by you no less) before too
http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/index.php?topic=4027351.10

Not sure if this poster is right about this case, but if he is, then factor this in. A thing can be "wrong" and still not illegal.

"A state Supreme Court judge, where I live, does not believe that online school graduates should be kept from taking the bar just because they are not graduating from an ABA school.
JUSTICE HEIPLE, dissenting:

By the amendment to Rule 711 and by Rule 703, which was previously adopted, this court recognizes only law schools which have been approved by the American Bar Association. I both dissent and object to these rules because they represent an improper delegation of a governmental and judicial function to a trade association of lawyers.

The American Bar Association is a voluntary association of dues paying lawyers (currently $225 per annum) that exists for the benefit of its members. No lawyer is required to belong. Most do not. It clothes its parochial existence with an overlay of public activities and pronouncements designed to convince the general public that it is interested in the general welfare. That its primary focus is the benefit of its members, however, is beyond question. That the American Bar Association is a trade association warrants neither commendation nor condemnation. As a trade association engaging in improving the status of lawyers and lobbying Congress and the State legislatures, it is on a par with any other trade association. It is decidedly not, however, an arm of the State of Illinois nor of this court.

It is improper for this court to assign and delegate to that organization the ultimate decisionmaking function of deciding for the State of Illinois which law schools warrant official recognition. It would be proper, of course, for this court and its Board of Law Examiners (now, Board of Admissions to the Bar) to consider and weigh the evaluations of the American Bar Association in considering which law schools are to be approved. The work of the American Bar Association in evaluating law schools could be considered as relevant evidence in that regard. No objection could be raised to that procedure.

This court, however, has no right to delegate its decisionmaking function to the American Bar Association, the Teamsters Union, the Republic of Uganda or any other such body or group. If the rule asserts a valid principle of law, then this court could as well assign all of its decisionmaking functions to others who might be considered experts in their field.

For the reasons given, I respectfully dissent."




-I only copy and pasted that from the link I showed above, so if anyone wants to do research on it go for it and post what you find. OP on it may have been a Novus recruiter, I don't know. But since its a topic from this board, with the same posters posting on the same subject, it seemed wrong NOT to bring it up.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: Groundhog on October 03, 2014, 03:09:49 PM
Let the LLM programs decide that for themselves. I know some state bars don't even care about undergrad (crazy but true) as long as you have the JD for example. The LLM (when not being used for a license) still might hurt an ABA grads feelings to see a nonaccredited grad get accepted into, but you either are good enough to pass or you are not. If they can cut muster, let them. If they barely make it, easier curve for the rest of us. I honestly say let that be between them and the LLM program.

Plus if an admissions committee is opening the flood gates that easy to let people in, that strikes me as them needing to clean their own home before asking others to clean theirs.

This strikes me as an internal affair. If they need to make it an external affair, ask the ABA to pass a ruling on it.
Personally it wouldn't hurt my feelings if they let people with no prior education at all into the LLM as long as the school knew what they were doing when they did it(and if not, the fault is on the school IMHO)

Those students admitted to LLM programs are, as JonLevy said, admitted based on a misrepresentation or a mistake. Any student at an ABA school knows he or she has an affirmative duty to correct such mistakes. Novus to an ABA LLM is at best unethical, at worst illegal, and bad for the profession regardless. It is bad for the profession because there are too many attorneys, particularly in states with looser licensing requirements, like California, and making it easier isn't going to help. In my opinion, at least, it is bad for the profession if these students with no real legal training other than a year-long LLM and a bar prep course attempt practicing law. Law school teaches one much more than how to pass the bar, and conversely, I don't think simply being able to pass the bar makes one a good attorney. A smart undergrad could probably pass the bar with a few more months to study.

The admissions committee of any individual school is geared towards maximizing their profits and prestige, so yes, I do partially blame the schools. They don't have the best interests of the law, the student, or the profession in mind.

I do think the ABA could do more, but the ABA probably already has a rule about what qualifies as a foreign law school. I doubt Novus counts under their rules as a bona fide foreign law school.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: legalpractitioner on October 03, 2014, 03:26:32 PM
Bad for the profession but especially bad for the student who may have been initially deceived by Novus.  But I think as far as a Novus grad practicing law, that is a moot question because I really doubt there are any.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: Maintain FL 350 on October 03, 2014, 03:46:52 PM
Groundhog makes a great point. A reasonably smart individual could probably learn enough "bar law" to pass the exam without any legal training. Does that mean they are prepared to be a lawyer, and should be entrusted with matters of huge significance? No!

In most states the bar tests minimum competency in limited, predictable, repetitive subjects. Even the essays themselves are frequently recycled. This is why most states have fairly high pass rates, not because most JD grads are brilliant. It's a learnable test.

The harder part is getting good at thinking like a lawyer, seeing all the angles, and issue spotting. The fact that an individual might be able to pass the bar does not mean they've had sufficient legal training. 
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on October 03, 2014, 05:49:54 PM
Groundhog makes a great point. A reasonably smart individual could probably learn enough "bar law" to pass the exam without any legal training. Does that mean they are prepared to be a lawyer, and should be entrusted with matters of huge significance? No!

In most states the bar tests minimum competency in limited, predictable, repetitive subjects. Even the essays themselves are frequently recycled. This is why most states have fairly high pass rates, not because most JD grads are brilliant. It's a learnable test.

The harder part is getting good at thinking like a lawyer, seeing all the angles, and issue spotting. The fact that an individual might be able to pass the bar does not mean they've had sufficient legal training.
Interesting arguments but I would say off topic. We're not talking about letting them sit the bar, just to take a masters degree. They are either licensed or not to begin with, this degree is not likely to change that AT ALL. So I don't get the whole "matters of legal significance" post.  You seem to be arguing why they shouldn't be allowed to sit the bar from the Novus Degree alone, and not only is no one arguing that they should, but no one is suggesting that they even are trying to do so.

And If by fluke any states did let someone get licensed post LLM (if they enrolled with international students due to the marshal islands thing or whatever) I'd say that I'm ok with that too since the LLM would be the vetting process equal to a JD.  But I doubt any would allow that.

It just doesn't bug me at all. Let the schools do what they want. CLEARLY the school isn't wanting them due to the suit, but I stand by my thought on that all the same.

I don't see any ethical issues either since from what I can see there in no lie. If they ask "was it ABA" and they lie, then yes. Otherwise, there is no lie. Many LLM programs actually say (I know since I have looked into applying to some of them) that they will take non ABA students if they are licensed attorneys. In theory at least a Novus Grad could be licensed (if qualified to sit for other reasons). I say this a matter of having schools just add an extra box to their admissions papers if they want to weed them out. It is kind of concerning that so many ABA law schools can't even handle their admissions and the theory is that "you should of known we would want you to tell us". Aren't most LLM profs and deans retired Judges and the like?

If its hurting any of your feelings that in theory a school might actually be ok with them getting in, ask the ABA to make a rule saying that they can't. A school that clearly doesn't want them in it filing a suit against Novus won't change that no matter who wins it.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on October 03, 2014, 09:12:03 PM
For those interesting in a school actually wanting to take them (on purpose) with no JD into an LLM, perhaps people should look into this
http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/index.php?topic=4026165.0
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: Groundhog on October 04, 2014, 11:47:28 AM
FreshlyMinted, I can't decide whether you truly don't understand what we wrote or you are a very good, subtle troll. I'm hoping for the latter for you personally, even though it wouldn't be great for the board.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: Maintain FL 350 on October 04, 2014, 02:21:12 PM
What I mean is that an LL.M program does not teach the skills required to be a good lawyer. They assume that you learned those skills in your JD program. LL.M programs are more like a standard master's.

Therefore, someone who doesn't learn that stuff in a real law school but does get an LL.M (and perhaps a ticket to the bar exam), is seriously lacking IMHO.

And yes, for the purposes of this discussion I assuming that most people with a non-bar qualifying JD enroll in a bar-qualifying LL.M program in order to take the bar.

Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: legalpractitioner on October 04, 2014, 02:26:33 PM
FreshlyMinted, I can't decide whether you truly don't understand what we wrote or you are a very good, subtle troll. I'm hoping for the latter for you personally, even though it wouldn't be great for the board.

Yes, that would be a real online LLM from England.  It does not require a previous law degree. However, unlike their LLB, I don't see how it qualifies one to be a solicitor or attorney.

The courses deal with specialized areas of the law, not basic law.

However, it does look like a great alternative to say a regionally accredited  Masters in Legal Studies from Kaplan University.

But unless bar admission committees are bone stupid, it won't get  anyone a bar ticket.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: legalpractitioner on October 04, 2014, 02:32:42 PM
What I mean is that an LL.M program does not teach the skills required to be a good lawyer. They assume that you learned those skills in your JD program. LL.M programs are more like a standard master's.

Therefore, someone who doesn't learn that stuff in a real law school but does get an LL.M (and perhaps a ticket to the bar exam), is seriously lacking IMHO.

And yes, for the purposes of this discussion I assuming that most people with a non-bar qualifying JD enroll in a bar-qualifying LL.M program in order to take the bar.

That LLM won't get anyone a bar ticket. A US LLM specifically geared to foreign attorneys might along with the right credentials. On the other hand if one were wanting to go into a human rights career, it's not a bad degree at all.

However, instead of going offshore for an online degree, the reasonable thing to do is enroll at Taft or Concord and take the First Year Law Exam.  I have worked with at least two other Taft graduates who have been practicing in difficult areas of the law.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on October 04, 2014, 08:54:03 PM
FreshlyMinted, I can't decide whether you truly don't understand what we wrote or you are a very good, subtle troll. I'm hoping for the latter for you personally, even though it wouldn't be great for the board.
Trolling for what? What part do you think I have wrong. I have been spot on, sorry that I have a mind of my own. I stand by what I said.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on October 04, 2014, 08:57:02 PM
What I mean is that an LL.M program does not teach the skills required to be a good lawyer. They assume that you learned those skills in your JD program. LL.M programs are more like a standard master's.

Therefore, someone who doesn't learn that stuff in a real law school but does get an LL.M (and perhaps a ticket to the bar exam), is seriously lacking IMHO.

And yes, for the purposes of this discussion I assuming that most people with a non-bar qualifying JD enroll in a bar-qualifying LL.M program in order to take the bar.
Your assumption would be wrong then. Factor in that most LLM don't allow that unless you are already licensed in your home jurisdiction.
As for someone who is licensed without a JD, I say let them sit the LLM anyways. Even if they lack a GED, who cares. They are lawyers and have more real world experience to add to the class room than the jointly enrolled JD/LLM students who ALSO lack a JD. If already having the JD was so vital, the dual enrolled would all need to be shutdown too. Factor that in as well.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: legalpractitioner on October 05, 2014, 08:22:01 AM
FreshlyMinted, I can't decide whether you truly don't understand what we wrote or you are a very good, subtle troll. I'm hoping for the latter for you personally, even though it wouldn't be great for the board.
Trolling for what? What part do you think I have wrong. I have been spot on, sorry that I have a mind of my own. I stand by what I said.

Anyone who is something, and is something essentially, possesses "eo ipso," the claim to be recognized for exactly this special thing, and for nothing more or less.  Søren Kierkegaard
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on October 05, 2014, 07:42:19 PM
FreshlyMinted, I can't decide whether you truly don't understand what we wrote or you are a very good, subtle troll. I'm hoping for the latter for you personally, even though it wouldn't be great for the board.

Yes, that would be a real online LLM from England.  It does not require a previous law degree. However, unlike their LLB, I don't see how it qualifies one to be a solicitor or attorney.

The courses deal with specialized areas of the law, not basic law.

However, it does look like a great alternative to say a regionally accredited  Masters in Legal Studies from Kaplan University.

But unless bar admission committees are bone stupid, it won't get  anyone a bar ticket.
I like the way you worded this. Most people with Novus going for an LLM would be in the same boat anyways. They are either already licensed on their own or not going to get licensed. The MSL is offered at many schools that lets you take classes alongside JD's and LLM's but for a different degree. I think people like the LLM ring though.
http://www.law.yale.edu/graduate/MSL_program.htm
and in theory could go onto other degrees even beyond that without a JD
http://www.law.berkeley.edu/5653.htm
Heck those can even legally call themselves "Doctor" and just "esq" like we do
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on October 05, 2014, 09:14:05 PM
An accredited alternative to Novus might be an EJD. At least that is regionally accredited
http://www.concordlawschool.edu/Executive_Juris_Doctor.aspx

and no doubt they'd still let the grads into their LLM
http://www.smallbusinessllm.com/
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: legalpractitioner on December 05, 2014, 07:47:34 AM
Nothing filed in the lawsuit since last March when Novus did a general denial.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on December 05, 2014, 01:41:42 PM
Nothing filed in the lawsuit since last March when Novus did a general denial.
That's all I'd do too if I were the defendant. Burden of proof is on the plaintiff. I wouldn't give them anything to work with at all unless I had to.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: legalpractitioner on December 05, 2014, 04:47:37 PM
Usually, works like this:

1.  Answer
2. Discovery
3.  Summary Judgment Motions if any
4.  Trial or Settlement
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on December 05, 2014, 05:41:30 PM
Usually, works like this:

1.  Answer
2. Discovery
3.  Summary Judgment Motions if any
4.  Trial or Settlement
right................................. How does that change what I said?
Are you trying to say that the Plaintiff is taking their sweat time on moving forward?
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: legalpractitioner on December 05, 2014, 06:14:47 PM
No way to tell, could be bogged down in discovery or negotiations or just as you say.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on December 05, 2014, 07:27:30 PM
No way to tell, could be bogged down in discovery or negotiations or just as you say.
Time will tell I guess. I personally don't think their case has enough to win anyways. I think it would likely survive an action against them for summary judgement, but I'd still expect any place with money to move for it. Novus I suspect is just hoping it all goes away on its own if they ignore it long enough (and it just might do just that too)
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: calvinexpress on December 14, 2014, 07:39:40 AM
Somebody please post a link to the physical complaint so we can read it.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: truhseeker on December 15, 2014, 03:46:10 PM
Here is the link to the New York County Supreme Court and all documents associated with the Touro Vs. Novus case:

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/DocumentList?docketId=vTwzsNTZ1XrDSxjCt/y_PLUS_oA==&display=all&courtType=New%20York%20County%20Supreme%20Court

One hilarious note is that the owner of Novus is using attorney Armando LLorens of Furgang & Adwar, LLP. A little research shows Mr. LLorens graduated from Brown University and Columbia University Law School. Both schools have the proper accreditation.  Nowhere did the court paperwork reference that she is using a Novus University Law School graduate for legal guidance or representation.

So instead of using a Novus University Graduate to defend the legitimacy of Novus Law School, she is using a properly accredited attorney that graduated from a properly accredited school to prove that her “Law School” is not a diploma mill.  Must not have much faith in a single graduate from Novus.  Is that admission by default??
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on December 15, 2014, 04:56:19 PM
Here is the link to the New York County Supreme Court and all documents associated with the Touro Vs. Novus case:

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/DocumentList?docketId=vTwzsNTZ1XrDSxjCt/y_PLUS_oA==&display=all&courtType=New%20York%20County%20Supreme%20Court

One hilarious note is that the owner of Novus is using attorney Armando LLorens of Furgang & Adwar, LLP. A little research shows Mr. LLorens graduated from Brown University and Columbia University Law School. Both schools have the proper accreditation.  Nowhere did the court paperwork reference that she is using a Novus University Law School graduate for legal guidance or representation.

So instead of using a Novus University Graduate to defend the legitimacy of Novus Law School, she is using a properly accredited attorney that graduated from a properly accredited school to prove that her “Law School” is not a diploma mill.  Must not have much faith in a single graduate from Novus.  Is that admission by default??
I don't find that ironic at all. Novus grads aren't licensed to practice in that state.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: legalpractitioner on December 16, 2014, 05:14:00 PM
Actually I am surprised Novus even answered - 50/50 the judge would not have granted the relief requested on default or what effect if any it would have on Novus.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on December 16, 2014, 08:15:11 PM
Actually I am surprised Novus even answered - 50/50 the judge would not have granted the relief requested on default or what effect if any it would have on Novus.
Yeah, but then the other party could move for summary judgment against Novus. With burden of proof being on plaintiff, I'd respond if I was Defendant too, but I would make it as dry toast as possible.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: calvinexpress on December 17, 2014, 01:10:31 AM
So does anybody know of an American university that recognizes Novus as an foreign law school? Some schools must be accepting these students. Which ones accept Novus? 
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: legalpractitioner on December 17, 2014, 07:23:48 AM
Novus is not recognized by anyone; it is not a foreign law school.  It is an offshore corp. which operates out of California.  it has no lawyers associated with it. Its students have tried to fraud their way into LLM programs which is why Touro sued.  Even if a Novus student got into a program by bluffing their way in, I doubt they would succeed. Novus is incorporated in the Marshall islands and its graduates do not qualify for the Marshall Islands bar - end of story.

http://www.marshallislandslawfirm.com/#!Marshall-Islands-Attorneys-Who-Can-Practice-in-the-Courts-of-the-Marshall-Islands/c1ohp/300D7720-B2C3-4993-BAD3-79939473F89F

However, I do appreciate a good scam and Novus has had a long run.  They made a good call that state regulators are too lazy to pursue them.  Touro got sued by one of the Novus students and that is why Touro took the lawsuit out against Novus. 

Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on December 17, 2014, 11:25:08 AM
Yes and No. They had grads (at least in theory) who are lawyers. BUT would have to be grads that qualified otherwise even without it by reading for the law (a few states such as CA allow that)

Its not much more of a scam than the accredited EJD deals out the there. I say that since unaccredited JD's in CA let you sit the bar, so its kind of like the unaccredited bar approved JD and the EJD had a deaf limp and lame child that they hid in the closet but a hand full of people still knew about.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: legalpractitioner on December 17, 2014, 07:06:26 PM
1.  What grads are lawyers - you going to believe Novus? Reading for the law? With who, their mother?  Not likely.

2.  A regionally accredited EJD is not a scam, it is similar a MA in Legal Studies. You can't become a lawyer based on it but it is a real masters degree. Maybe better than a MA in Religious Studies. On the other hand, an unaccredited EJD is usually worthless but could be OK for something if DETC accredited.

But I will go back to the main point - if no lawyers are associated with a law school, how can it be a law school?



Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on December 17, 2014, 11:13:22 PM
1.  What grads are lawyers - you going to believe Novus? Reading for the law? With who, their mother?  Not likely.

2.  A regionally accredited EJD is not a scam, it is similar a MA in Legal Studies. You can't become a lawyer based on it but it is a real masters degree. Maybe better than a MA in Religious Studies. On the other hand, an unaccredited EJD is usually worthless but could be OK for something if DETC accredited.

But I will go back to the main point - if no lawyers are associated with a law school, how can it be a law school?
Are we talking staff or students? I don't know who is on their staff, but I thought I heard (somewhere once) that lawyers or even retired judges were somehow involved in it.

As for students, I don't know, but people do read for the law. There likely is at least one out there somewhere, and no I don't know who or where. And I'm not defending them, just saying that the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence there Watson.

EVEN IF they had licensed lawyers I would sure hope they'd use an ABA licensed attorney with experience. Be in it to win it, not to worry about people who already don't like you not like you more.

Novus is a scam though, not denying that. If you use their degree in many states you can get arrested. So............its kind of like a novelty life experience degree. You can own it, just not use it.

Serious Academic thought and question here related to that. Let's say (for purely academic purposes) that someone did sit the bar exam and pass by reading the law. They also have a JD from Novus. If they put "JD" on their lawyer business card is it legal to do so? Or would it be a character and fitness issue?
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on December 17, 2014, 11:20:55 PM
http://novuslegal.com/

I thought you might get a kick out of this. He appears to be a real attorney (albeit an online grad) who is taking advantage of the Novus name.
Makes you wonder if Novus will sue him?
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: legalpractitioner on December 18, 2014, 07:00:05 AM
I don't see how using Novus would be an infringement and the guy is a T Jeff. grad:

http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/Member/Detail/288739
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: legalpractitioner on December 18, 2014, 07:07:20 AM
Using JD on a business card w/out a law license depends on the state and intent.

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/tussle_over_titles/

Because jokers, disbarred attorneys, and wannabes often try the JD gambit, most lawyers stay away from listing the JD solely unless to disambiguate professional degrees they have as in addition to the JD:

http://pview.findlaw.com/view/4031944_1

Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on December 18, 2014, 11:02:18 AM
Using JD on a business card w/out a law license depends on the state and intent.

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/tussle_over_titles/

Because jokers, disbarred attorneys, and wannabes often try the JD gambit, most lawyers stay away from listing the JD solely unless to disambiguate professional degrees they have as in addition to the JD:

http://pview.findlaw.com/view/4031944_1
All good points, but I was talking about the other extreme where you ARE licensed but not due to the JD and just happen to hold an unaccredited JD from a place like Novus.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on December 18, 2014, 11:03:18 AM
I don't see how using Novus would be an infringement and the guy is a T Jeff. grad:

http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/Member/Detail/288739
Not sure why you gave the link. I assumed he was honest about being licensed.
Name infringement? People sue for far less (and win) daily.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: legalpractitioner on December 18, 2014, 04:38:13 PM
If you are an attorney and licensed and have a JD, if you want you put the JD after your name.  It would not matter where it is from. 

They would lose on an infringement lawsuit; there is little likelihood one would confuse a scam law school with a law firm. 

Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on December 18, 2014, 07:13:58 PM
If you are an attorney and licensed and have a JD, if you want you put the JD after your name.  It would not matter where it is from. 

They would lose on an infringement lawsuit; there is little likelihood one would confuse a scam law school with a law firm.

I dunno about the first part, Novus is listed in a lot of states as illegal to use period.

I'm not saying Novus would win on the second part, but people
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/celebrity/lee-im-spike-spike-tv         have sued for less.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: legalpractitioner on December 30, 2014, 02:36:36 PM
Illegal to use? I think you mean Novus is on the list of diploma mills however obviously that is not criminal or they would be prosecuted since they are not hard to find.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: legalpractitioner on December 30, 2014, 03:32:23 PM
The Spike TV lawsuit is PR for Spike Lee - a business expense and is plausible because he is claiming brand confusion.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on December 30, 2014, 03:42:14 PM
Illegal to use? I think you mean Novus is on the list of diploma mills however obviously that is not criminal or they would be prosecuted since they are not hard to find.
It varies by state. And it is what it is.
I'll post a link as an example. Don't presume, its a dangerous thing.
http://www.thecb.state.tx.us/index.cfm?objectid=EF4C3C3B-EB44-4381-6673F760B3946FBB

Institutions Whose Degrees are Illegal to Use in Texas

Consonant with its responsibilities under Chapter 61 of the Texas Education Code and rules promulgated pursuant thereto, the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board annually reviews the institutions included on this list.

"Fraudulent or substandard degree" means a degree conferred in Texas in violation of the Texas Education Code; conferred in another state in violation of that state's laws; conferred in another state by an institution that was not accredited by an accreditor recognized by the Coordinating Board and that has not been approved by the Coordinating Board for its degrees to be used in Texas; or conferred outside the United States by an institution that the Coordinating Board determines is not the equivalent of an accredited or authorized degree. (Texas Educational Code, Chapter 61, Section 61.302)

The Texas Penal Code (Section 32.52) prohibits the use of fraudulent or substandard degrees "in a written or oral advertisement or other promotion of a business; or with the intent to: obtain employment; obtain a license or certificate to practice a trade, profession, or occupation; obtain a promotion, a compensation or other benefit, or an increase in compensation or other benefit, in employment or in the practice of a trade, profession, or occupation; obtain admission to an educational program in this state; or gain a position in government with authority over another person, regardless of whether the actor receives compensation for the position." Violation of this law is a Class B misdemeanor.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on December 30, 2014, 03:43:22 PM
The Spike TV lawsuit is PR for Spike Lee - a business expense and is plausible because he is claiming brand confusion.

Bingo
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: legalpractitioner on December 31, 2014, 07:19:24 AM
Illegal to use? I think you mean Novus is on the list of diploma mills however obviously that is not criminal or they would be prosecuted since they are not hard to find.
It varies by state. And it is what it is.
I'll post a link as an example. Don't presume, its a dangerous thing.
http://www.thecb.state.tx.us/index.cfm?objectid=EF4C3C3B-EB44-4381-6673F760B3946FBB

Institutions Whose Degrees are Illegal to Use in Texas

Consonant with its responsibilities under Chapter 61 of the Texas Education Code and rules promulgated pursuant thereto, the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board annually reviews the institutions included on this list.

"Fraudulent or substandard degree" means a degree conferred in Texas in violation of the Texas Education Code; conferred in another state in violation of that state's laws; conferred in another state by an institution that was not accredited by an accreditor recognized by the Coordinating Board and that has not been approved by the Coordinating Board for its degrees to be used in Texas; or conferred outside the United States by an institution that the Coordinating Board determines is not the equivalent of an accredited or authorized degree. (Texas Educational Code, Chapter 61, Section 61.302)

The Texas Penal Code (Section 32.52) prohibits the use of fraudulent or substandard degrees "in a written or oral advertisement or other promotion of a business; or with the intent to: obtain employment; obtain a license or certificate to practice a trade, profession, or occupation; obtain a promotion, a compensation or other benefit, or an increase in compensation or other benefit, in employment or in the practice of a trade, profession, or occupation; obtain admission to an educational program in this state; or gain a position in government with authority over another person, regardless of whether the actor receives compensation for the position." Violation of this law is a Class B misdemeanor.

Wow, great catch.  Someone should drop Texas a line on Novus Law School.  It already has Novus University on sh_t list.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: barprephero on December 31, 2014, 02:19:02 PM
I don't think they have the authority to go after Novus since its not in Texas. Texas used to have DETC schools on that list too (I'm told) until they figured out that the US Dept of Education approved them. I think some of the schools still on that list are state approved unaccredited ones from out of state.

Basically, its only illegal if you have them and use them in Texas as far as Texas is concerned. I could see Texas filing a similar law suit since Novus is creating the problem for them by producing the degrees. My guess is they just don't the time or resources to bother with that. If you volunteered to do it probono I bet they'd consider it though. It would get your name in print.
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: Novus Law School on October 05, 2015, 10:30:34 AM
NOVUS GAINS LEGAL VICTORY OVER TOURO
COMPLAINT ALLEGING NOVUS DEGREES WORTHLESS DISMISSED WITH PREJUDICE
 
In a decision issued September 17, the Supreme Court of the State of New York handed Novus University a complete legal victory over Touro Law School, dismissing in its entirety Touro’s lawsuit against Novus which falsely alleged that degrees conferred by Novus University Law School were in some way not valid or worthless. The court ruled that “Touro failed to set forth a justiciable controversy” and “dismissed [Touro’s] complaint in its entirety,” and with prejudice.
 
Touro filed suit against Novus in October 2013. The Supreme Court of New York’s decision now fully resolves the action in Novus’ favor.
 
Note the following NY-State Court info for the Touro suit information: http://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/iscroll/AdvSearch_D.jsp?Criteria=Novus&Submit4=Search
 
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: Citylaw on October 08, 2015, 10:51:05 AM
They won their lawsuit good for them if the case was dismissed with prejudiced NOVUS couldn't ask for a better result.

I don't care enough to look up the merits of the case, but if a school wants to offer a degree let them.  Novus does not claim to be ABA approved or approval of any state bar that I know of.  Therefore, I wouldn't recommend the school from what I know, but people can choose to enter a law school that is not approved as long as the school informs them of that fact.

If a school is bragging about winning lawsuits against its legitimacy I think that shows the school is not an ideal place, but they should allowed to keep their doors open.

If NOVUS starts claiming it has ABA approval and completely misleading people that is another story, but it doesn't do that from what I know.

A list of practicing attorneys from NOVUS would be interesting to see.

Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: 🍟💵🌲🍥 on October 08, 2015, 07:23:03 PM
If a SCHOOL wants to offer a degree let them.....

A list of practicing attorneys from NOVUS would be interesting to see.


They aren't a school is the issue

agreed on the last part though
Title: Re: Touro College vs. Novus
Post by: legalpractitioner on October 25, 2015, 09:07:13 PM
It would be a very short list of zero since the Novus degree would not qualify anyone to take a bar so if by some miracle a Novus grad ever did the pass a bar, the Novus degree would not be the qualifying reason but some other qualification.