Law School Discussion

Law Students => Online Law Schools => Topic started by: samthehumble on June 22, 2014, 11:30:13 AM

Title: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: samthehumble on June 22, 2014, 11:30:13 AM
Hello, Can a two year LLB holder sits for the California Bar Exam?
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: barprephero on June 22, 2014, 02:39:48 PM
Hello, Can a two year LLB holder sits for the California Bar Exam?
You will want to check with CA but I think you need an LLM to do that in your situation and/or ask for special permission
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: Maintain FL 350 on June 23, 2014, 04:52:25 PM
It depends, and you'll have to check with the California state bar to  find out.

California does allow LL.B holders from the UK to sit for the California bar, but there are some additional requirements. I think you have to be admitted in the UK and have a certain number of years of experience, for example.

An LL.B holder from another country, however, like India or Pakistan might not qualify without first obtaining a U.S. LL.M. I'm not sure what you mean by "two year LL.B". If you mean that the degree was only a two year program, I doubt if California would accept it without and LL.M. Again, check with the California bar, as they can give you the best information.
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: cusc2011 on June 24, 2014, 05:23:41 PM
I will be graduating in a few weeks with my LLB and I started 3 yrs ago.  I paid slightly under 5k for the entire program and was able to keep my six figure career.  To sit for the bar exam in California, you will need a LLB and LLM to sit unless you are an licensed attorney it can be from a civil or common law country.  Whether a 2 yr  LLB degree will work check with the bar examiners.   In the last 2 yrs more and more LLM in US / American Legal Studies programs are popping up that gear you to take Cali bar. Three years ago there was only one online LLM program in US studies available. USC has an online LLM program in American Legal Studies starting this fall and they have spring enrollments and the program can be completed in 12 mos.  I also have a good friend they just passed the Cali bar on their 2nd try, they just received notice a few weeks ago and they have an online LLM from FCSL and they have a civil law LLB and they were not a lawyer prior to enrolling in the LLM program.  I will reveal some additional info before the year is out that I will share.
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: Citylaw on June 25, 2014, 08:54:57 AM
I believe CUSC is right on point.

At my California law school there were a number of LLB's and they were all in the process of completing an LLM to take the bar.

The best place to get an answer however, is directly from the source so I encourage you to contact the California State Bar.

Here is the link to the California Bar future lawyer website, which can probably answer any question you might have. If worse comes to worse call them and ask http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/ .

Although I believe cusc's post is right on you don't want to spend a bunch of time and money then not be able to take the bar for some unknown reason and say well X anonymous internet poster said it would all work out.

Good luck in your pursuit of a American law license.
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: cusc2011 on November 22, 2014, 12:53:07 PM
I had my LLB evaluated from a credential evaluation agency that is on the California Bar Examiner list of approved evaluators.  The results came back today and the overall summary of my evaluation is that my LLB from the UK is equivalent to a JD in the United States. 
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: barprephero on November 22, 2014, 04:12:28 PM
I had my LLB evaluated from a credential evaluation agency that is on the California Bar Examiner list of approved evaluators.  The results came back today and the overall summary of my evaluation is that my LLB from the UK is equivalent to a JD in the United States.
So are they going to let you sit it, or do you have to take extra classes first?
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: cusc2011 on November 22, 2014, 05:15:14 PM
I still have to do an LLM in US Law which is only 1 yr of additional study.
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: barprephero on November 22, 2014, 05:36:13 PM
I still have to do an LLM in US Law which is only 1 yr of additional study.
Pick a location to take it at yet, or exploring all options for awhile?
If its CA, does it have to be an ABA LLM, or can you do it at one of the non ABA online deals?
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: cusc2011 on November 22, 2014, 07:49:41 PM
I plan to attend a LLM at a ABA approved school.  For the California Bar, the LLM can be from an ABA approved school or a California approved law school.

Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: barprephero on November 23, 2014, 06:06:57 PM
I plan to attend a LLM at a ABA approved school.  For the California Bar, the LLM can be from an ABA approved school or a California approved law school.
Wise choice. The bar pass rate goes from around 70% to about 14% of unaccredited JD's, and I imagine the same idea is true at the LLM level too.
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: Maintain FL 350 on November 23, 2014, 08:57:51 PM
CUSC:

I was under the impression that UK law degrees were generally accepted in CA without an LL.M. For example, a friend of mine has his LL.B from an English law school and qualified for the CA bar without having to take an LL.M.

Is the determinative factor whether or not you are already licensed in the UK?
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: cusc2011 on November 23, 2014, 10:11:42 PM
The current rules are pretty clear.   If you are a licensed attorney it can be common law or civil law you can sit for the Cali bar and by-pass taking the additional 1 yr education at ABA, California approved school, or the LLM.   If you have a foreign law degree and not a lawyer then you will need to complete the additional education requirements.  You also have to get your foreign law degree evaluated by one of the approved agencies on the California Bar Examiners list to determine your education equivalency. 
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: legalpractitioner on November 28, 2014, 08:30:56 PM
California should bar foreign lawyers whose jurisdictions who do not offer California lawyers the chance to sit for the bar.
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: barprephero on November 28, 2014, 09:01:47 PM
California should bar foreign lawyers whose jurisdictions who do not offer California lawyers the chance to sit for the bar.
Reciprocity Agreements are more for when no additional training is required
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: Groundhog on November 28, 2014, 09:23:47 PM
California should bar foreign lawyers whose jurisdictions who do not offer California lawyers the chance to sit for the bar.

California doesn't have enough attorneys?!
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: barprephero on November 29, 2014, 09:10:20 PM
California should bar foreign lawyers whose jurisdictions who do not offer California lawyers the chance to sit for the bar.

California doesn't have enough attorneys?!
What difference does that make? Make the bar harder if you need to, weed out the weak that way.
MERITOCRACY !!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: legalpractitioner on December 01, 2014, 09:41:58 PM
California should bar foreign lawyers whose jurisdictions who do not offer California lawyers the chance to sit for the bar.
Reciprocity Agreements are more for when no additional training is required

California has agreements with Ireland and England. 
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: barprephero on December 02, 2014, 12:01:56 PM
California should bar foreign lawyers whose jurisdictions who do not offer California lawyers the chance to sit for the bar.
Reciprocity Agreements are more for when no additional training is required

California has agreements with Ireland and England.
I know?  ???
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: barprephero on December 02, 2014, 12:03:56 PM
California should bar foreign lawyers whose jurisdictions who do not offer California lawyers the chance to sit for the bar.
Reciprocity Agreements are more for when no additional training is required

California has agreements with Ireland and England.
We're talking about different types of agreements
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: cusc2011 on December 04, 2014, 08:20:48 AM
I've been accepted to an LLM program at ABA school. Also, I had my LLB degree evaluated from an approved agency on the California Bar Examiner list.  Yes, I was admitted to program with the distance learning LLB and no I didn't have to be a lawyer to be admitted to the program. 
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: barprephero on December 04, 2014, 11:39:52 AM
I've been accepted to an LLM program at ABA school. Also, I had my LLB degree evaluated from an approved agency on the California Bar Examiner list.  Yes, I was admitted to program with the distance learning LLB and no I didn't have to be a lawyer to be admitted to the program.
Which distance learning LLB did you attend?
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: cusc2011 on December 04, 2014, 12:29:13 PM
Northumbria University
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: barprephero on December 04, 2014, 10:14:47 PM
Northumbria University
It is interesting how some nations allow that and it is considered equal to ABA still while here in America we don't allow that.
Someday I hope we do. I'd still do on campus myself though. What made you decide to not go on campus?
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: cusc2011 on December 04, 2014, 10:33:38 PM
I always wanted to become a lawyer.  I have a successful career and I'm in my 40's.  Quitting my job and uprooting my family is not an option to go back to  the school the traditional way and spending 100K on law school is not an option at my stage in life.  I did my research well in advance and decided to get a my law degree from overseas which cost me slightly under 5K for the entire 3 yr program.  So I was able to get a degree from a well respected UK law school at a price that you will spend on a luxurious vacation.  I'm now going to get an LLM, and I'm going to use tuition reimbursement from my organization which will lower my out of pocket cost.  In a nut shell, I will have spent less than 20K for my legal education in which I will have received 2 law degrees for that price. 
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: barprephero on December 05, 2014, 12:32:08 AM
I always wanted to become a lawyer.  I have a successful career and I'm in my 40's.  Quitting my job and uprooting my family is not an option to go back to  the school the traditional way and spending 100K on law school is not an option at my stage in life.  I did my research well in advance and decided to get a my law degree from overseas which cost me slightly under 5K for the entire 3 yr program.  So I was able to get a degree from a well respected UK law school at a price that you will spend on a luxurious vacation.  I'm now going to get an LLM, and I'm going to use tuition reimbursement from my organization which will lower my out of pocket cost.  In a nut shell, I will have spent less than 20K for my legal education in which I will have received 2 law degrees for that price.
I'm missing a few steps here. Why are you moving to American then? Where you already in American when you did this foreign school?
What's the career? If its successful do you plan to quit it? If not, why go to law school at all?
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: cusc2011 on December 05, 2014, 06:39:12 AM
I live in the US and I did my LLB distance learning. I did it for a number of reasons, one is cost savings. I earned my degree and the total tuition was less than 5k for 3 years. This in it self was a bargain.  I don't know what the future will hold. I will be starting my US LLM in Jan 2015.

Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: legalpractitioner on December 05, 2014, 07:36:55 AM
I live in the US and I did my LLB distance learning. I did it for a number of reasons, one is cost savings. I earned my degree and the total tuition was less than 5k for 3 years. This in it self was a bargain.  I don't know what the future will hold. I will be starting my US LLM in Jan 2015.

Don't bother - it never makes any sense.  Just like the alleged 5K total cost for a three year law degree in England.  Common sense tells you the materials alone were 5K at $1 =  0.64 GBP.

The idea here is to take an English correspondence school degree in order to apparently avoid the California First Bar Exam and then take the one year LLM since the poster apparently has no intention of becoming a trainee solicitor.

But since the First Year Bar Exam is a good indicator of success on the very tough California Bar Exam, I think this game plan makes little sense.  Also English law is really quite different than US law.  I've studied both and passed the QLTT and can tell you it was just as difficult as passing the California Bar even with an open book exam!
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: cusc2011 on December 05, 2014, 08:21:56 AM
Whether you like it or not I did pay 5k for my degree. I will post the current tuition rates straight from the 2014 - 2015 student handbook with contact info.  I sure did by pass the California First year baby bar and saved a ton of money. In regards to my LLB, we take the same exams as the full-time on campus students.  Exams are proctored by the Embassy or an approved University.

In regards to becoming a solicitor, I do plan on becoming one after I take the US Bar.  I plant to take the QLTS in England.  I started on this site in 2011 and every step of the way you said it couldn't be done but I have proven you wrong each step of the way.  I even went as far as to have my degree evaluated by an agency on the California Bar Examiners list before pursuing LLM.  I applied to 2
LLM programs at ABA schools and got accepted to both.  Upon completing my LLM, I will be eligible for the Washington State and California Bar exam.
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: cusc2011 on December 05, 2014, 08:54:04 AM
Below are the 2014 -2015 tuition rates for Northumbria University LLB (Open Learning Program).  This is a 4 year program but if you have a college degree already you can apply for Accredited Prior Learning which allows you to complete the degree in 3 years instead of 4 years.  If you complete the degree in 3 years, your total cost will be 3,300.  This is about $5,200 USD give or take. 

The tuition has gone up slightly since I started the program 3 years ago. These fees can be verified by contacting the Admin Team in the Open Learning Department at la.llbopenlearning@northumbria.ac.uk

Student     Registration Fee              Assessment Fee          Total Fees
New Student*    750                  550                             1,300
Year 2                   450                 550                             1,000
Year 3                   450                  550                             1,000
Year 4                   450                  550                             1,000

TOTAL PAYABLE    4,300


Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: barprephero on December 05, 2014, 01:37:11 PM
Is this degree only recognized by CA or is it recognized by an ABA state?
If so, then basically isn't it an ABA approved option?
Although, if you have to get the LLM, would someone really come out ahead financially? (factoring in not just tuition but also extra years to get it all done)
As far as in CA to avoid the minibar.............I could see that being logical. Of course a part time nights/weekends at an "accredited" (even if not ABA) school in CA (like JFKU) would get you the same result without having to get the LLM and as stated would be US law vs commonwealth law.

Also, what is the undergrad requirements for a UK LLB? I looked into the Bahamas once (just for kicks) and they told me you had to have an undergrad in Commonwealth law, BUT that it only had to be a two year undergrad degree. Is the UK the same way? (same commonwealth)
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: legalpractitioner on December 05, 2014, 04:49:27 PM
Good luck on the bar - just seems a backward way to go about it to me.
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: legalpractitioner on December 05, 2014, 04:58:42 PM
"I looked into the Bahamas once (just for kicks) and they told me you had to have an undergrad in Commonwealth law, BUT that it only had to be a two year undergrad degree. Is the UK the same way? (same commonwealth)"

Caribbean is different from the UK.  Practitioners are attorneys unless they come in via the British Overseas territories which have attorneys, solicitors, and barristers.  England and Wales allows a 3 year LLB but you then have to enter into a training contract. For most folks, the best and only way to go with a distance learning law program is a California school and the dismal pass rate that goes with it - 5 to 1 against or more.
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: barprephero on December 05, 2014, 05:35:02 PM
"I looked into the Bahamas once (just for kicks) and they told me you had to have an undergrad in Commonwealth law, BUT that it only had to be a two year undergrad degree. Is the UK the same way? (same commonwealth)"

Caribbean is different from the UK.  Practitioners are attorneys unless they come in via the British Overseas territories which have attorneys, solicitors, and barristers.  England and Wales allows a 3 year LLB but you then have to enter into a training contract. For most folks, the best and only way to go with a distance learning law program is a California school and the dismal pass rate that goes with it - 5 to 1 against or more.
IF they do that I'd still say to do the first year at one of the "accredited" part time programs so they can skip the first year exam
I would be that if they went one year at that UK school they could do the same thing (assuming they found a school willing to let them transfer-and I can't imagine that would be hard) This is a bit of an assumption of the bar rules, but I bet you could haggle it.
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: barprephero on December 05, 2014, 05:38:50 PM
Do you think someone taking an online JD (Cali school) could help improve their bar chances by taking an LLM on campus?
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: legalpractitioner on December 05, 2014, 06:21:34 PM
I think it would be an act of foolishness for a distance learning student to forego the dreaded first year law student exam because it is the only real objective measure of likelihood of passing the bar.  Given that a lot of DL students really are underqualified - failing to get by the FYLSE saves them time and money. After four years online, a LLM is waste of time IMO, a good bar pass program is what is needed.  Passing the FYLSE is a good indicator of success but even then the odds are about 5-1 against.  Compare that to a 3 year ABA approved school where even the dullest student has at least an even chance or better of passing a bar somewhere and a good student will pass for sure.
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: barprephero on December 05, 2014, 07:25:10 PM
I think it would be an act of foolishness for a distance learning student to forego the dreaded first year law student exam because it is the only real objective measure of likelihood of passing the bar.  Given that a lot of DL students really are underqualified - failing to get by the FYLSE saves them time and money. After four years online, a LLM is waste of time IMO, a good bar pass program is what is needed.  Passing the FYLSE is a good indicator of success but even then the odds are about 5-1 against.  Compare that to a 3 year ABA approved school where even the dullest student has at least an even chance or better of passing a bar somewhere and a good student will pass for sure.
Do you think the difference is the schooling or the students?
Do you think they should require the exam of ALL non ABA law students (or even all law students in state) ?
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: legalpractitioner on December 05, 2014, 08:49:17 PM
http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/4/documents/fyx/June2014fylxstats102814_R.pdf

Both DL and unaccredited fixed facility school students must take the exam.

California should permit these schools to upgrade or close them out.  However, state bars and the practice of law in general is backassward so instead of allowing DL schools to upgrade to state accreditation; we have this stupid FYLSE exam.  What do you expect from a profession based on precedent; not much in the way of innovation.  The self driving car will do much to kill off the profession, when there are no more auto accidents, at least 20% of the profession will leave.
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: barprephero on December 05, 2014, 09:04:33 PM
http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/4/documents/fyx/June2014fylxstats102814_R.pdf

Both DL and unaccredited fixed facility school students must take the exam.

California should permit these schools to upgrade or close them out.  However, state bars and the practice of law in general is backassward so instead of allowing DL schools to upgrade to state accreditation; we have this stupid FYLSE exam.  What do you expect from a profession based on precedent; not much in the way of innovation.  The self driving car will do much to kill off the profession, when there are no more auto accidents, at least 20% of the profession will leave.
I was getting at the fact that "accredited" non ABA don't require it.
Is the self driving car meant to be a metaphor here? If you mean personal injury suits those will still exist even with robot cars, the style will just change.
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: legalpractitioner on December 06, 2014, 08:14:18 AM
Yes, no automobile accident means PI attorneys will be hurting - there ain't much money in slips, falls, and emotional sleights.  Since the older ones are likely untrainable they will have to join the other 100 million people who don't work and never will unless the can muscle out the existing baggers at Safeway and greeters at Home Depot.  The fact state bars don't even see it coming shows how little they care for their members.  You saw it here first but will read it later at the bottom  front page personal interest story on the digital WSJ ten years from now.
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: barprephero on December 06, 2014, 12:56:02 PM
Yes, no automobile accident means PI attorneys will be hurting - there ain't much money in slips, falls, and emotional sleights.  Since the older ones are likely untrainable they will have to join the other 100 million people who don't work and never will unless the can muscle out the existing baggers at Safeway and greeters at Home Depot.  The fact state bars don't even see it coming shows how little they care for their members.  You saw it here first but will read it later at the bottom  front page personal interest story on the digital WSJ ten years from now.
Fair enough. You seem to have thought this out. I really don't think robot cars are an issue, but I can see some GREAT lawsuits for strict products liability and maybe even class action against companies when they (as all things) mess up.
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: legalpractitioner on December 06, 2014, 02:47:27 PM
People mess up about 100 times more than robots who cannot drink, text, eat or fall asleep while driving.  On top of it imagine the waiver you will need to sign to get your hands on one of those robot cars?
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: barprephero on December 06, 2014, 06:54:37 PM
People mess up about 100 times more than robots who cannot drink, text, eat or fall asleep while driving.  On top of it imagine the waiver you will need to sign to get your hands on one of those robot cars?
Quantity vs Quality, I'm saying it will be a major suit. And the victim getting hit likely didn't sign the waiver.
Plus you can't waive everything, even if you sign it. Just because its in writing and consented to doesn't make it enforceable.
There would still be money to be made.

On side notes to that robot car idea, do you think open intox, "driving" drunk or asleep will still be illegal?

I take it you are an auto accident attorney?

Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: legalpractitioner on December 06, 2014, 07:35:39 PM
Haven't done much PI, didn't much care for it.  I'm just saying take people out of the equation and the number of accidents should eventually drop 99%.
Title: Re: LLB (Graduate Entry)
Post by: barprephero on December 06, 2014, 10:26:25 PM
Haven't done much PI, didn't much care for it.  I'm just saying take people out of the equation and the number of accidents should eventually drop 99%.
maybe, but its really a neither here nor there argument
fun to have to just shoot the breeze, but seems purely academic for at least the next decade (if not far longer)