Law School Discussion

Specific Groups => Minority and Non-Traditional Law Students => Topic started by: lrt8000 on January 22, 2014, 11:13:12 PM

Title: Time to End Merit Scholarships
Post by: lrt8000 on January 22, 2014, 11:13:12 PM
People complain about affirmative action but what about the merit scholarships the law schools are giving to students with advantages to boost their u.s. new rank.  Students with advantages get these scholarships while people of color pay for them with higher tuition.  I would call this racial exploitation. Law deans who claim to be in favor of social justice are making people of color pay more for law school than students with advantages. They know that people of color come into law school with lower gpas and lsats because of poverty and discrimination but they don't care.  U.S. news rank is what matters not social justice. Then people of color are getting the low paying jobs or no jobs at all. This puts people of color into high debt. This is racial exploitation. These merit scholarships must end.
Title: Re: Time to End Merit Scholarships
Post by: Maintain FL 350 on January 23, 2014, 03:23:39 PM
URM applicants with even moderately impressive numbers are eligible for tons of financial aid, as well as admission to schools that non-URM applicants with similar numbers can only dream about. Most law schools will bend over backwards to attract qualified URM students with significant scholarship offers. Many of the people who receive those scholarships aren't exactly poor either, but qualify based purely on URM status.

Merit scholarships are different. They are available to anyone, regardless of race, as long as they have the numbers. I think you're probably right that many of the recipients of merit scholarships are from well-off backgrounds, but plenty of regular joes benefit from these scholarships too. And yes, attracting highly qualified students is a legitimate goal of any law school.

I was raised poor as hell by a single mother, and never had any educational advantages. I went to crummy, gang infested schools where nobody cared, and had to work at crappy jobs and go into debt to get through college. Because I'm white I couldn't qualify for AA or many scholarships even though I was poorer than many of the URM students at my college. (Poor white students get really screwed this way.)

The only way I was able to attend law school was because I scored well on the LSAT and obtained a merit scholarship. Even then, I had to attend a lower ranked school in order to maximize the scholarship opportunities.

My point is that it's not as simple as you'd like to believe, and it certainly isn't "racial exploitation". If you don't have the numbers to merit a scholarship and you're afraid of accruing debt, then drop out. No one forces you to go to law school.   
Title: Re: Time to End Merit Scholarships
Post by: Maintain FL 350 on January 23, 2014, 05:36:37 PM
BTW, how do you suggest that lower ranked schools attract highly qualified applicants without merit scholarships? If it's going to cost the same to attend Columbia as it is to attend St. John's or CUNY, what high achiever will choose the lower ranked school?
 
Title: Re: Time to End Merit Scholarships
Post by: lrt8000 on January 23, 2014, 06:53:41 PM
Get your facts straight. Most law schools today do not offer minority scholarships. They have switched to merit scholarships to increase their rank in us news. They are using minorities to fund the merit scholarships. This is racial exploitation.
Title: Re: Time to End Merit Scholarships
Post by: Maintain FL 350 on January 23, 2014, 07:45:06 PM
Most law schools today do not offer minority scholarships.

Do you have any evidence to back that up? Or evidence that URM status is not considered when awarding merit scholarships? 

Take a look at the profiles on LSN. A URM applicant with a around a 3.5/165 can expect big $$$ at many T1 schools, and possibly even full rides at many others. Unless the people on LSN are lying, this seems to be the case. If students, URM or non-URM, lose their scholarships later that's their problem.

They are using minorities to fund the merit scholarships. This is racial exploitation.

They are using anyone who doesn't earn the scholarship to fund it, minority or otherwise.

You're making three huge assumptions: 1) The people receiving merit scholarships don't need them,  2) URM applicants aren't getting them, and 3) tuition for minority students would be lower absent merit scholarships. 
Title: Re: Time to End Merit Scholarships
Post by: lrt8000 on January 23, 2014, 07:53:12 PM
I meant scholarships for minorities or scholarships based on need. Of course, minorities can get merit scholarships. However, minorities are much less likely to get merit scholarships for the reasons I mentioned earlier.
Title: Re: Time to End Merit Scholarships
Post by: Citylaw on January 28, 2014, 07:07:44 PM
LRT your jumping all over the place as Maintain states URM's receive substantial scholarship money as they should. The legal profession is in desperate need of diversity and these merit scholarships to African Americans and Hispanic students are increasing diversity.

Additionally, merit scholarships exist in every form of education undergrad, medical school, law school, etc.

What social injustice is occurring as a result of merit scholarships?
Title: Re: Time to End Merit Scholarships
Post by: lrt8000 on January 30, 2014, 08:56:16 PM
What you are claiming is not happening at law schools today. Minority scholarships have been largely ended in favor of merit scholarships intended to raise a law school's rank in US News.  If you have any evidence to the contrary, please cite to your source. Otherwise don't comment on something you have no knowledge of.
Title: Re: Time to End Merit Scholarships
Post by: Maintain FL 350 on January 31, 2014, 01:42:44 AM
LRT:

Here's the evidence.
Take a look at LSN. An African American applicant, for example, with a 3.0-3.5/160-165 is likely to get a FULL scholarship to a prestigious Tier 1 school. I'll ask again, do you think the students reporting on LSN are lying?   

Whether it's called a minority scholarship, a diversity scholarship or a merit scholarship is irrelevant. The money is there for students who qualify, and URM applicants can qualify with even moderate numbers. If you're talking about applicants whose numbers are too low to qualify for scholarships being "racially exploited", you're wrong. Law school attendance is voluntary and competitive, and no one is guaranteed a scholarship.
Title: Re: Time to End Merit Scholarships
Post by: lrt8000 on January 31, 2014, 10:21:51 AM
The ABA Committee on the Future of Legal Education Report has condemned the practice of using merit scholarships to move up in the US News rankings because it hurts poorer students. The report does not call this racial exploitation, as I do, but since people of color are the ones who are primarily affected it is racial exploitation.
Title: Re: Time to End Merit Scholarships
Post by: lrt8000 on January 31, 2014, 12:32:50 PM
If you still don't understand read this post http://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2014/01/making-scam-personal.html#comment-form
Title: Re: Time to End Merit Scholarships
Post by: Maintain FL 350 on January 31, 2014, 01:43:49 PM
I understand your point, but you still haven't provided anything to back it up. There is nothing in that article that supports your claim. Yes, students with crappy numbers will not receive scholarships and will have to pay full tuition while students with great numbers won't. Shocking!

I'll ask again, although I know you won't answer:

Do you have ANY evidence that law schools have scrapped diversity scholarships, or that diversity is not considered when awarding merit scholarships? If not, then your argument is baseless and should be disregarded. 
Title: Re: Time to End Merit Scholarships
Post by: lrt8000 on January 31, 2014, 06:55:01 PM
Do you understand what merit means? Did you read the ABA Report? Maybe you can't see the point because you are not a minority who has had to deal with discrimination all his life.
Title: Re: Time to End Merit Scholarships
Post by: Maintain FL 350 on January 31, 2014, 07:29:02 PM
Still skirting around answering the questions, still no evidence.
Title: Re: Time to End Merit Scholarships
Post by: lrt8000 on January 31, 2014, 07:37:54 PM
That's what racists say when they are accused of racism.
Title: Re: Time to End Merit Scholarships
Post by: Maintain FL 350 on January 31, 2014, 07:40:27 PM
Ah, the ad hominem, a logical fallacy. That's what people do when they can't support their argument.

Title: Re: Time to End Merit Scholarships
Post by: lrt8000 on January 31, 2014, 09:08:32 PM
It's becoming obvious what you are Maintain. I'm done dealing with your type.
Title: Re: Time to End Merit Scholarships
Post by: Maintain FL 350 on January 31, 2014, 10:15:18 PM
It's becoming obvious what you are Maintain.

Ridiculously handsome and a snazzy dresser? Guilty, your honor!
Title: Re: Time to End Merit Scholarships
Post by: lrt8000 on February 08, 2014, 05:02:40 PM
Go here http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/2014/02/ttt-smells-of-desperation-vermont-law.html?showComment=1391903809572#c303752584239922285 for the latest example of racial exploitation by law schools.
Title: Re: Time to End Merit Scholarships
Post by: lrt8000 on February 15, 2014, 01:16:25 PM
Paul Campos has a great post on racial exploitation by law schools.  http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2014/02/the-traffic-in-law-degrees-will-be-permitted-but-controlled#comments  He states, "What appears to be happening is that sub-elite law schools, and in particular low-ranked law schools, are selling (quite literally) the social cachet traditionally associated with the legal profession to members of traditionally marginalized groups. The historical fact that members of such groups, and in particular young people in these groups, are especially vulnerable to exploitation by powerful social actors ought to raise a red flag for anyone considering the meaning of these statistics."
Title: Re: Time to End Merit Scholarships
Post by: Citylaw on February 16, 2014, 11:33:42 PM
Paul Campos is a joke if he is so adamantly against legal education why does he collect checks from the University of Colorado Law School? The man is the classic example of someone without a clue ,he has absolutely no real world legal experience, and has been paid to be a professor his entire career. However, all he does is complain about how unfair legal education is. As a final point to prove his hypocrisy University of Colorado where he teaches is offering scholarships to URM students. http://colorado.lawschoolnumbers.com/applicants

Paul Campos is a joke and a disgrace to the legal profession. If he didn't work for a law school I would have some respect for him, but you cannot criticize law schools for their high tuition rates and then be on the law schools payroll. 

Maybe one day Paul Campos will get out of his Ivory Tower and actually practice law, if he ever does that then he maybe he would be worth listening to. However, if he actually went into the real world he wouldn't dare put his name to half of this stuff as he would be berated by members of the legal profession.

Bottom line you cannot expect your criticisms of an institution to be taken seriously if you are on the payroll of the institution you are criticizing. Maybe one day Mr. Campos will grow a pair and go into the real world, but since he has never done it and been in his ivory tower for 20 years I find it very unlikely.

Title: Re: Time to End Merit Scholarships
Post by: lrt8000 on February 18, 2014, 08:06:10 PM
One person can't change a policy at a law school each faculty member only gets one vote.

Campos is valuable because he speaks the truth. He lets everyone know about the law school scam, such as the fact that your law school GGU has one of the worst placement records of all law schools (21% placement score on LST). You should be warning people about Golden Gate not criticizing Campos.