Law School Discussion

Specific Groups => Minority and Non-Traditional Law Students => Topic started by: jennid1234 on August 10, 2012, 11:42:55 AM

Title: FYLSE or FYLSX - passed? today CA BAR releases June 2012 results
Post by: jennid1234 on August 10, 2012, 11:42:55 AM
Anyone know if this information will be available online or do I have to wait for snail mail?  When I check my admission status the message is:  The status screens is under maintenance.


Title: Re: FYLSE or FYLSX - passed? today CA BAR releases June 2012 results
Post by: Aries25 on August 21, 2012, 06:44:01 AM
So Jennid1234, did you pass???
Title: Re: FYLSE or FYLSX - passed? today CA BAR releases June 2012 results
Post by: jennid1234 on August 21, 2012, 12:45:54 PM
nope, I didn't  :-[

I'm taking it again in October and studying harder to address what I know are my unknown's. 
Title: Re: FYLSE or FYLSX - passed? today CA BAR releases June 2012 results
Post by: Aries25 on August 21, 2012, 01:34:37 PM
Oh no! I'm sorry to hear that...

I just got excepted into Concord today, I start on September 4th...

Do you feel like what you learned at Concord, wasn't enough?

Do they give you a score to let you know how close you were or do they just give you a pass/fail grade?

Title: Re: FYLSE or FYLSX - passed? today CA BAR releases June 2012 results
Post by: jennid1234 on August 24, 2012, 12:32:11 PM
Concord was wonderful in preparing all of us and I was so close to passing it wasn't funny.  Reason I didn't pass? I didn't start studying soon enough for the test (started the 2nd week in May, put my 2nd classes on hold), I work full time and I knew I might not pass on the first try, yet I thought I passed after I finished the test too, so it was a bit of a disappointment.  My suggestion is KNOW the rule statements for Crim Law, Contracts and Torts so that you may type them in less 2 hours, practice outlining past essays posted on Ca Bar website and, in addition to the MPC you receive from your 1L studies and the Concord First Program, practice as many multiple choice questions as possible.  The pass rate is low but if everyone on the next test scores really high on the mpc then the percentage degree of difficulty comparison will lower my score again - it's a gamble but I'm already into studying and Concord has a Second Time Sucess program to help us. 
Title: Re: FYLSE or FYLSX - passed? today CA BAR releases June 2012 results
Post by: Aries25 on September 01, 2012, 05:57:42 AM
Good luck on your exam in October! I'm sure you will do great this time around... Also, I think it's really great that Concord has a program to assist you in excelling on this exam.
Title: Re: FYLSE or FYLSX - passed? today CA BAR releases June 2012 results
Post by: lawguy2b on September 02, 2012, 11:57:06 AM
To Aires 25-I went to Concord and I suggest you buy the study cards from barcards.com for the Baby Bar.  Cost about $30, and start memorizing these cards from day one, they are the rules, and you will have a better chance of passing the FYLSE.  I asked an instructor what should I memorize and did not receive an answer other than learn your outlines.  I used the bar cards in our weekly class and they are what you need to know for the substantive law part of the exam.  Write as many essays as you can and get rid of the useless info in a fact pattern-or the essay question. Hope this helps and don't get behind in your studies or memorizing or you're done.  This is an expensive venture if you don't keep up with the modules.
Title: Re: FYLSE or FYLSX - passed? today CA BAR releases June 2012 results
Post by: Uzziyah on September 03, 2012, 06:06:19 PM
Please provide another source for the cards you recommended... I could not find Barcard.com
Title: Re: FYLSE or FYLSX - passed? today CA BAR releases June 2012 results
Post by: Cher1300 on September 04, 2012, 09:47:38 AM
Law in a Flash cards are also great for learning the rules in addition to some silly hypos to help re-enforce the material.   I didn't take the FYLSE, but they really helped with first-year exams and I've purchased them for second year also.
Title: Re: FYLSE or FYLSX - passed? today CA BAR releases June 2012 results
Post by: jennid1234 on December 14, 2012, 12:15:09 PM
So as a follow-up, I needed to fail the first time.  I PASSED the october FYLSE - don't know the score yet, snail mail;)

Title: Re: FYLSE or FYLSX - passed? today CA BAR releases June 2012 results
Post by: Groundhog on December 14, 2012, 01:32:25 PM
So as a follow-up, I needed to fail the first time.  I PASSED the october FYLSE - don't know the score yet, snail mail;)
Congratulations!
Title: Re: FYLSE or FYLSX - passed? today CA BAR releases June 2012 results
Post by: Cher1300 on December 20, 2012, 10:46:08 AM
So as a follow-up, I needed to fail the first time.  I PASSED the october FYLSE - don't know the score yet, snail mail;)

Congratulations!
Title: Re: FYLSE or FYLSX - passed? today CA BAR releases June 2012 results
Post by: jennid1234 on August 13, 2013, 03:10:04 PM
FYLSE - results are out for the June test!  I'm curious to hear about the results.

Anyone know if they know people who passed it? It is a hard test, was it similar to October's.  The 2012 test in June was very hard but if I took it today, I think I'd pass it!  Studying is everything, practice does make those IRAC writings seem to flow more easily and my rule statements? I have not forgotten one, all the way to remdies for breach of contract, UCC, offer, acceptance, ETC.  Torts was fun, especially intentional batteries, can't imagine not having intent when angry enough to hit my boss (LOL and JK) but I still dream fact patterns with murder - they always test on murder.  I never dreamed of that before law school - brings out the criminal in us all.  But now I'm in the most wonderful classes and GET IT - evidence, professional responsibility, corporations and legal analysis - getting ready to write a BRIEF! 

I passed that FYLSE last October.  548 took the test and only 86 passed, 99 second timers from Concord (CLS) took it and 13 passed.  I was one of the 13;)  It is a hard test for nontraditional part time students.  I'm 51, 4 months to go and I finish my third year at CLS.  I have books to start studying for the BAR EXAM and I am starting this weekend with practice essays and multiple choice questionsg.  I will take the exam in Feb of 2015, just after finishing my year four at CLS.  Well, this year 28 CLS students took the bar exam in FEB, 8 passed.  I can do it, I can;)  LOL, stressed NO, preparing to beat that test.  I sure don't want to have to take it twice.  CAN'T WAIT.

Title: Re: FYLSE or FYLSX - passed? today CA BAR releases June 2012 results
Post by: legalpractitioner on August 28, 2013, 05:55:10 PM
The Concord results are not encouraging; Concord has the resources to get most students through this test.  This would indicate the Concord students themselves are somehow deficient in their study habits or simply lacking basic skills. such as writing and memorization.
Title: Re: FYLSE or FYLSX - passed? today CA BAR releases June 2012 results
Post by: legalpractitioner on August 28, 2013, 05:56:46 PM
I also wonder if the State Bar stacks the deck, the pass rate never seems to go above 20%.  I wonder if the Cal Bar is purposely fiddling with the grading curve to maintain this low pass rate?
Title: Re: FYLSE or FYLSX - passed? today CA BAR releases June 2012 results
Post by: Maintain FL 350 on August 28, 2013, 07:31:26 PM
I also wonder if the State Bar stacks the deck, the pass rate never seems to go above 20%.  I wonder if the Cal Bar is purposely fiddling with the grading curve to maintain this low pass rate?

I don't see any evidence of that. If you look at the FYLSE questions and model answers, they don't seem any tougher than most first year law school exams. In fact, I'd say that my first year contracts exams were considerably more complicated. The answers provided by Calbar are pretty straightforward: general rule, applicable exceptions, brief analysis and conclusion.

I'm not saying it's an easy test, it's not. I think the high failure rate has more to do with the fact that online law schools have open admissions and will take most applicants, even those lacking adequate academic qualifications.

The low pass rate may also be evidence that Concord's program is not rigorous enough. If the Concord exams are comparable in difficulty and scope to the FLYSE (and they should be at least that hard), then you would expect a higher pass rate.
Title: Re: FYLSE or FYLSX - passed? today CA BAR releases June 2012 results
Post by: legalpractitioner on August 31, 2013, 08:19:54 AM
No, you missed the point. It's not the questions, it is the grading and the curve which is controlled by the CalBar.

For example, if it is predetermined there will be only a 20% pass, only those students in the top 20% will pass; the other 80% will fail regardless whether their answers would have satisified exams at a law school.

While T/F and multiples should be straight forward, essay question grading is arcane and subjective.  Some jurisdictions like DC and California have consistently low pass rates cause by essay question grading practices. 
Title: Re: FYLSE or FYLSX - passed? today CA BAR releases June 2012 results
Post by: Maintain FL 350 on August 31, 2013, 11:13:35 AM
I got your point about the curve being manipulated, and I know that it can be done, I just don't see any real evidence of that.

Here's my logic:

The model answers provided by Calbar are presumably examples of average or better than average passing answers, which means they represent answers scoring comfortably above the curve. If a student can match those answers in terms of issue spotting and basic analysis, they should (I think) be alright. 

I suppose the best evidence would be from people who have failed the FYLSE. Did they correctly state the law, spot all the major issues and defenses and still fail (indicating a harsh curve), or were they significantly deficient?   

What strikes me is that the model answers aren't especially remarkable, they're just good. It makes me wonder if a significant number of test takers are performing significantly below par.

I completely agree with your point regarding the subjective nature essay grading. It can be unfair and arbitrary. I've known people who failed the bar by five points, which means they may have passed if a different grader had read their essays. On the bar exam, I think this is especially true regarding the PTs.   

 
Title: Re: FYLSE or FYLSX - passed? today CA BAR releases June 2012 results
Post by: legalpractitioner on September 02, 2013, 08:18:05 PM
Model answers may have nothing to do with passing.  It just seems curious that from year to year, 80% of the FYLSE takers fail and the general Cal Bar pass rate never seems to get above 60%.  On the other hand in some states, the bar pass rate is always 80-90% - seems to me those failed FYLSE takers might have succeeded in another state had they that option.  Too bad lawyers suck at math (except for billing); this could use some quantitative analysis.
Title: Re: FYLSE or FYLSX - passed? today CA BAR releases June 2012 results
Post by: Maintain FL 350 on September 03, 2013, 12:13:24 AM
Don't you think the low bar pass rate is related to the sheer difficulty of the exam? Even many highly regarded out of state schools have significantly lower pass rates in CA. Maybe it's the curve, but the people I've spoken with who took other states' exams and then took CA found it to be significantly more difficult. 
Title: Re: FYLSE or FYLSX - passed? today CA BAR releases June 2012 results
Post by: legalpractitioner on September 03, 2013, 08:25:44 PM
No matter what the rubric is - essay question grading is subjective.  Additionally, the passing cut off on other portions can be jacked up as opposed to other states.  Do they manipulate it, sure they do, that's why the pass rate is lower than other states. 
Title: Re: FYLSE or FYLSX - passed? today CA BAR releases June 2012 results
Post by: jennid1234 on September 04, 2013, 12:27:49 PM
The essays may be subjective in grading but it you don't spot the issues, know the rule statements and can't analyze to why someone should or should not be found guilty of murder (for example) then you won't pass. 

The state manipulates the results. Why? The goal is qualify students who don't attend traditional law school or who failed first year at an ABA law school.  I failed the first time by a close margin. In October 2012, I scored higher and the degree of difficulty was less, so I passed.  I am a better student now because of the FYLSE. CLS gives sufficient preparation to pass but I didn't attend everything they offered.  Bottom line, I just wasn't prepared enough the first time around.  I know intelligent people who failed the test too. So many variables to taking any test, who writes the questions, who grades, the degree a difficulty, preparation, health, working and sleep all play a factor in the results. 
Title: Re: FYLSE or FYLSX - passed? today CA BAR releases June 2012 results
Post by: legalpractitioner on September 07, 2013, 05:19:35 PM
Anyone who has a familiarity for multivariate statistics and quantitative analysis could explain how it is very easy to take raw data (test scores) and achieve the desired results.  I am not saying it is done that way, I am just saying if a State Bar wanted a 20% pass rate it can more or less achieve it by manipulating the data.  I just find find it odd that those FYLSE exam takers always fail 80% of the time or conversely always pass 20% of the time.