Law School Discussion

Law Students => Pursuing an LLM => Topic started by: sollicitus on April 10, 2012, 07:21:04 PM

Title: Perks to an LLM
Post by: sollicitus on April 10, 2012, 07:21:04 PM
People like to talk smack about LLM's but there must be perks for people to keep enrolling in them.
Are there any LLM students on this forum, LLM grads, or those planning to enroll? If so why? What do you view as the perks? There must be some.
Title: Re: Perks to an LLM
Post by: john4040 on April 11, 2012, 01:17:06 AM
Perks:

(1) You are a foreign student, but you backdoor your way into US legal practice through an LLM;
(2) You were not originally qualified for Biglaw, but you get a tax LLM from one of the top schools and backdoor your way into Biglaw.

/thread.
Title: Re: Perks to an LLM
Post by: sollicitus on April 11, 2012, 12:39:03 PM
Perks:

(1) You are a foreign student, but you backdoor your way into US legal practice through an LLM;
(2) You were not originally qualified for Biglaw, but you get a tax LLM from one of the top schools and backdoor your way into Biglaw.

/thread.

So basicly only if needed to get licensed or if you have a 2.5 from drake and want to get into a harvard mans firm?

Does the LLM license thing work in all states? If so do you think an online grad with an ABA LLM could pull it off too?
Title: Re: Perks to an LLM
Post by: john4040 on April 12, 2012, 01:03:48 AM
So basicly only if needed to get licensed or if you have a 2.5 from drake and want to get into a harvard mans firm?

Does the LLM license thing work in all states? If so do you think an online grad with an ABA LLM could pull it off too?

Your first sentence is correct (assuming that the grad from Drake got a Tax LLM and did well).  Generally, Tax LLMs are the only LLMs that can give a significant boost to a non T-14 US law grad in the Biglaw market. 

Now that I've put more thought into it, let me add a 3rd reason to get an LLM:  (3) US Law graduate graduated summa or magna and wants to break into legal academia. 

As to your second question, see pages 14 - 19 of this:  http://www.ncbex.org/assets/media_files/Comp-Guide/CompGuide.pdf
You will see that New York and California, two of the largest jurisdictions for legal work, allow foreigners to sit for the bar after completing the LLM.  In other states, the LLM allows foreigners to fulfill the "Legal education in English common law" and "Additional education at an ABA-approved law school" prongs that are often required.
Title: Re: Perks to an LLM
Post by: sollicitus on April 12, 2012, 01:03:28 PM
All good perks.

I take it that the LLM with a CBE JD dosn't do the same trick then? (unless CA declares itself a Republic again someday, so here's hoping for that Taft grads! ;) )

Why do you think then so many american grads still get non tax LLM's? I ask since there seem to be them offered at nearly every law school.

Title: Re: Perks to an LLM
Post by: john4040 on April 12, 2012, 01:47:25 PM
Why do you think then so many american grads still get non tax LLM's? I ask since there seem to be them offered at nearly every law school.

They're hoping for the best.  But, more times than not, it just doesn't pan out.

LLMs are known as the cash cows of law schools.  The schools do it because they can.  They care not about the desparate law students they lure in.  Afterall, how else will they fund their own salaries? 

Back in the old days (when there weren't so many lawyers around), an LLM was more valuable.  You'll notice that a lot of older lawyers made it into Biglaw with bullsh1t LLMs, like an LLM in "Litigation".  Today, the jig is up - an LLM rarely carries any weight.
Title: Re: Perks to an LLM
Post by: sollicitus on April 12, 2012, 03:02:10 PM
Why do you think then so many american grads still get non tax LLM's? I ask since there seem to be them offered at nearly every law school.

They're hoping for the best.  But, more times than not, it just doesn't pan out.

LLMs are known as the cash cows of law schools.  The schools do it because they can.  They care not about the desparate law students they lure in.  Afterall, how else will they fund their own salaries? 

Back in the old days (when there weren't so many lawyers around), an LLM was more valuable.  You'll notice that a lot of older lawyers made it into Biglaw with bullsh1t LLMs, like an LLM in "Litigation".  Today, the jig is up - an LLM rarely carries any weight.

Do you think that is because there are just too many earning the LLM then? I know a lot of people complain about there being "too many college grads these days" (sometimes refering to PhD's and MBA's but often just any college grad at all, which is nuts since less than a third even finish a BA leaving almost as many unable to fully read and write at GED level)

I can see the supply/demand aspect of it as far as the LLM part goes.

Getting off subject a bit for a moment, do you think the number of BA grads has been a good or bad thing for the nation? I ask since yes there are more people able to do each trade but growing up I couldn't make it a day without hearing teachers cry about how "we are falling behind the Japanese, if we were all smarter we'd do better as a nation and have a better economy" So now I hear the never ending converse of that. What's your take on it? More educaton = better or = worse, and why?
Title: Re: Perks to an LLM
Post by: john4040 on April 13, 2012, 05:08:59 AM
Do you think that is because there are just too many earning the LLM then? I know a lot of people complain about there being "too many college grads these days" (sometimes refering to PhD's and MBA's but often just any college grad at all, which is nuts since less than a third even finish a BA leaving almost as many unable to fully read and write at GED level)

I can see the supply/demand aspect of it as far as the LLM part goes.

Oversupply is only part of the problem.  Demand has significantly dropped off as well.  Employers have taken the position (rightfully, IMO) that a JD is all that is necessary to guage practice potential, and that the slight educational benefit gained from the LLM rarely overcomes lackluster JD performance or lack of actual work experience.

Getting off subject a bit for a moment, do you think the number of BA grads has been a good or bad thing for the nation? I ask since yes there are more people able to do each trade but growing up I couldn't make it a day without hearing teachers cry about how "we are falling behind the Japanese, if we were all smarter we'd do better as a nation and have a better economy" So now I hear the never ending converse of that. What's your take on it? More educaton = better or = worse, and why?

(1) I think this country needs to focus more on the maths and sciences.  Innovation is key to the growth of the US;
(2) I think that too many people are going to college in the US.  Some people have no business going to college and should, instead, learn a craft.  Many people go to college and don't learn a damned thing - in fact, my high school offered a far more rigorous education than my college; and
(3) Teachers are self-interested.  More students = more $$$.
Title: Re: Perks to an LLM
Post by: sollicitus on April 14, 2012, 06:06:41 PM
So then should we start encouraging people NOT to go to college?
Title: Re: Perks to an LLM
Post by: john4040 on April 15, 2012, 10:47:01 PM
Yes.  Raise the admission standards and erect higher barriers to getting federal loans.

People won't simply choose not to go to college.  Everyone thinks they're a special little snowflake - afterall, their mothers told them so.
Title: Re: Perks to an LLM
Post by: sollicitus on April 16, 2012, 06:31:44 PM
Yes.  Raise the admission standards and erect higher barriers to getting federal loans.

People won't simply choose not to go to college.  Everyone thinks they're a special little snowflake - afterall, their mothers told them so.

Good luck telling the parents that. Don't you know their kids as special?!?!?! ;)

So I take you are against affirmitive action then? (taking that race card aspect out of it) Afterall that is the ultimate example of putting someone somewhere not due to merit but due to what they look like in the mirror.
Title: Re: Perks to an LLM
Post by: john4040 on April 16, 2012, 11:01:22 PM
So I take you are against affirmitive action then? (taking that race card aspect out of it) Afterall that is the ultimate example of putting someone somewhere not due to merit but due to what they look like in the mirror.

I'm not against certain forms of affirmitive action.  I think that there should be enough minority scholarships built into the system so as to make sure that minorities are adequately represented.  On the other hand, I wouldn't hand the scholarships out like candy, and they would be reserved for only the smartest within each group of minorities).
Title: Re: Perks to an LLM
Post by: Maintain FL 350 on April 17, 2012, 10:54:03 AM
There are perks to an LLM, however those perks accrue to a very small number of students. Foreign attorneys, scholars, and tax lawyers might all benefit from an LLM assuming that it's obtained from a top law school (think NYU for tax law, etc).

Many students who graduate from non-elite law schools wrongly believe that an LLM from a more prestigious institution will give them an edge in the private sector. If they can get into a top ranked program, perhaps. An LLM from a tier 2-3, however, is probably a waste of money for the vast majority of students. I know a guy who got his JD at Loyola-New Orleans, his LLM at Duke, and was hired as a professor. I think his situation is the exception rather than the rule.
Title: Re: Perks to an LLM
Post by: legalpractitioner on April 17, 2012, 08:21:30 PM
I'm working on a foreign LLD, the perk is that it outranks in a PhD in the Commonwealth countries and establishes on was a bonified expert. Leiden offers a LLM as do a few other schools. 
Title: Re: Perks to an LLM
Post by: sollicitus on April 18, 2012, 06:25:58 PM
I'm working on a foreign LLD, the perk is that it outranks in a PhD in the Commonwealth countries and establishes on was a bonified expert. Leiden offers a LLM as do a few other schools.

Do you plan to practice in those nations?
Title: Re: Perks to an LLM
Post by: legalpractitioner on April 23, 2012, 07:24:07 AM
I already do.  Anyone with 2 years PQE from certain states like California can take the bar exam for England and Wales.  The former QLTT which I took was a three day open book exam in New York. Surprisingly there were only three or four other takers.  They now have a new exam called the QLTS which I am unaware of.  Ireland offers a similar QLTT exam for California attorneys.  Not all state bars have a relationship with these countries' law societies though.
Title: Re: Perks to an LLM
Post by: sollicitus on April 23, 2012, 06:32:25 PM
I already do.  Anyone with 2 years PQE from certain states like California can take the bar exam for England and Wales.  The former QLTT which I took was a three day open book exam in New York. Surprisingly there were only three or four other takers.  They now have a new exam called the QLTS which I am unaware of.  Ireland offers a similar QLTT exam for California attorneys.  Not all state bars have a relationship with these countries' law societies though.

interesting, so a non-aba CA grad can have an advantage a T-1 grad from another state very likely will not have?
Title: Re: Perks to an LLM
Post by: legalpractitioner on April 23, 2012, 06:51:10 PM
Has to do with the California bar's reciprocity agreements:

http://www.lawsociety.ie/Documents/education/qltt/certofeligform.pdf
Title: Re: Perks to an LLM
Post by: CA Law Dean on April 19, 2014, 05:46:40 PM
I thought I might renew this discussion to get an update on current LL.M. opinions. Our law school (Monterey College of Law) is the first California accredited (non ABA) law school to offer an LL.M. Our first two students are foreign educated lawyers, neither of whom intend to practice law in the US, but will take their experience back to their home countries where they believe that it will give them a unique practice advantage. We have also had inquiries from foreign educated lawyers who wished to use the LL.M. to qualify for the California bar exam. Although this is allowed, when we outlined what we thought was actually necessary to accomplish this feat (vs. just taking their money and wishing them good luck), it is a full-time one year commitment. No one has taken up the challenge yet. Although we are facility based (not online), we have flexibility to design individual LL.M. programs. Just wondering what flavor of LL.M. Programs might be appealing? We will not do tax because we do not have the expertise. We do have unique access to international law and environmental law faculty.
Title: Re: Perks to an LLM
Post by: legalpractitioner on April 21, 2014, 11:47:50 AM
I agree Tax is specialized and the LLM to bar exam route questionable.  There is a lot of interest in an International Law LLM but I suggest one that is focused on cross border practice as well as traditional IL.  The EU now permits a lot of cross border practice so it is not uncommon to need to be familiar with comparative law.  US lawyers are missing out on expanding their practices in transactional and corporate law, criminal defense, and as foreign legal experts.

If you ever do decide to offer an online International Law LLM - look me up - I have JD and PhD an am licensed in the US and three other countries.  Also have been instructing IL and legal Studies at the Masters Level for a couple regionally accredited online programs since 2006 and have developed several courses over the years.
Title: Re: Perks to an LLM
Post by: CA Law Dean on April 21, 2014, 08:58:15 PM
Thanks. Will keep you in mind. Have enjoyed your posts.