Law School Discussion

Law Students => Online Law Schools => Topic started by: legalpractitioner on January 13, 2012, 05:40:51 PM

Title: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 13, 2012, 05:40:51 PM
Assuming one passes the California Bar with a DL degree, where can one get admitted excluding Federal Courts and Tribunals based just on one's California bar license.

I would also exclude petitioning as in the case of Massachusetts, New Mexico, and Idaho as that is based on a number of factors besides being a member of the California bar such as residency and individual circumstances. As well as exclude restricted admissions such as corporate attorney and pro hac vice.

1.  Motion in DC after 5 years post qualification experience (PQE)
2.  Take the QLTS exam for England & Wales to become as solicitor after 2 years PQE
3.  Take the Irish QLTT to become a solcitior after one year PQE.
4.  Motion in Iowa after ten years PQE.

Note the ABA chart is often wrong or gives the impression that very limited exceptions apply generally.

Can anyone add non federal and non petition jurisdictions to this list?
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: FalconJimmy on January 14, 2012, 05:14:00 AM
In Texas, my understanding is that you are allowed to sit for the Texas bar if you practiced 3 out of 5 in California previously.  Although it's not the same as being automatically admitted to the bar, the degree, plus the experience requirement, allows you to sit for the bar exam.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: Opie58 on January 14, 2012, 07:39:43 AM
Great question, jonlevy; not sure it has ever been addressed that way, but it would be helpful.  Personally, I have not found any such data.  So, I suspect there would be a need to inquiry from each state their position, which may be a bit distorted unless either 1) the state allowed exceptions, most likely through petition, or 2) someone challenged through the states' supreme courts.  Looking at a handful of states bar committees/associations, very allowed for exceptions, usually with a 3-5 year active practice clause; however, I am also aware of one (Idaho) that did not follow that and allowed admittance.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 14, 2012, 11:07:01 AM
The general proviso written into most bar admission rules is that correspondence school graduates and presumably DL grads cannot qualify under most exceptions that might be available to non ABA grads in general.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 14, 2012, 11:13:27 AM
In Texas, my understanding is that you are allowed to sit for the Texas bar if you practiced 3 out of 5 in California previously.  Although it's not the same as being automatically admitted to the bar, the degree, plus the experience requirement, allows you to sit for the bar exam.

I wish that were true but alas not:

http://www.ble.state.tx.us/FAQ/main_faq.htm

Does Texas recognize J.D. degrees from correspondence or online based law schools?

No. See the following rules in the Rules Governing Admission to the Bar of Texas: III and XIII(a)(2).


4. Can a person from a non-ABA approved law school apply to Texas, assuming the law school is a non-correspondence law school?

Yes, but only if they meet the following requirements:

(a) hold an active, valid law license in another U.S. jurisdiction, and

(b) has practiced in that jurisdiction for a three (3) year period within the previous five (5) calendar years immediately preceding filing an application with this office.

Having these qualifications may enable the applicant to be eligible for the full bar examination. See the Board's U.S. Attorney Admission page.  Recent graduates of non-ABA approved law schools not based on study by correspondence are not eligible to take the Texas Bar Examination.  Foreign-educated attorneys should refer to the Board's Foreign Attorney Admission page for more information.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree (Iowa)
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 14, 2012, 11:19:32 AM
Non ABA is not what we are looking for - we are looking for online and correspondence admissions.

Here's the Iowa (on of the good ones) admits with only 5 years PQE without discrimination as to degree:


http://www.iowacourtsonline.org/Professional_Regulation/Bar_Admission__Practice_Rules/Admission_without_Examination/
Applying for Admission without Examination

Iowa offers admission without examination (admission on motion) for attorneys licensed in another state or the District of Columbia who can demonstrate a prolonged period of the actual practice of law without significant character or fitness problems.

 

What are the basic requirements for admission on motion?


The applicant must:

 
·         have been admitted to another state of the United States or the District of Columbia,

·         have practiced law five full years while licensed within the seven years immediately preceding the date of the application and still holds a law license, 

·         be of good moral character, and

·         file a certificate of admission, a certificate of regular practice, a certificate of good moral character, and a completed fingerprint card with the Office of Professional Regulation.

 
Who is not eligible for admission on motion?

An applicant is not eligible for admission on motion if:

·         the applicant is currently subject to lawyer discipline in another jurisdiction, 

·         the applicant failed the Iowa bar examination within five years of the date of the application, or

·         the applicant has failed five or more bar examinations.   

Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree (Wisconsin)
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 14, 2012, 11:28:40 AM
Wisconsin looks possible:

SCR 40.02 Qualifications generally.
A person who meets all of the following qualifications shall be
admitted to practice law in this state by order of the supreme court:
(1) Has attained the age of majority under the law of this state.
(2) Satisfies the legal competence requirements by diploma
privilege (SCR 40.03), bar examination (SCR 40.04) or proof of
practice elsewhere (SCR 40.05).


SCR 40.05 Legal competence requirement: Proof of practice.
(1) An applicant shall satisfy the legal competence requirement
by presenting to the clerk certification of the board that the applicant
has provided all of the following:
(a) Proof of admission to practice law by a court of last resort in
any other state or territory or the District of Columbia.
(b) Proof that the applicant has been substantially engaged in
the practice of law in a state or territory, the federal government or the
District of Columbia for 3 years within the last 5 years prior to filing
application for admission. A lawyer may satisfy this requirement by
proof of practice in more than a single jurisdiction and under more than
one provision of this rule.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree (Maryland)
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 14, 2012, 11:36:02 AM
5 years PQE apparently permits one to take the attorney exam in Maryland regardless of degree:

http://www.courts.state.md.us/ble/pdfs/baradmissionrules.pdf

Rule 13. OUT-OF-STATE ATTORNEYS
(a) Eligibility for Admission by Attorney Examination--Generally
A person is eligible for admission to the Bar of this State under this Rule if the person
(1) is a member of the Bar of a state;
(2) has passed a written bar examination in a state;
(3) has the professional experience required by this Rule;
(4) successfully completes the attorney examination prescribed by this Rule; and
(5) possesses the good moral character and fitness necessary for the practice of l
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree (Caribbean-BVI)
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 14, 2012, 11:47:45 AM
British Virgin Islands:
www.eccourts.org/ecsc40/vm/bvi/HowtoBecomeaBVILawyer.pdf

Alternatively, foreign qualified lawyers wishing to become licensed in the Caribbean Region (in contrast to being admitted in England & Wales) may choose to take a six month conversion course regulated by the Council of Legal Education of the West Indies. This course can be taken at the Norman Manley Law School in Jamaica, the Hugh Wooding Law School in Trinidad or the Eugene Dupuch Law School in the Bahamas.

But you will need a local sponsor to get a motion for admission before the court.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: LincolnLover on January 14, 2012, 12:06:59 PM
In reality how many Americans plan to move to another country to practice though?
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 14, 2012, 12:14:49 PM
In reality how many Americans plan to move to another country to practice though?

You do not need to be resident to practice. You can fly in or apply the law of that jurisidiction as needed for clients.  Over 200 US licensed English solicitors are in the US.

http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/choosingandusing/findasolicitor/action=lawfirmsearch.law?startrow=51&COUNTRY=UNITED STATES OF AMERICA&PANELMEM=&LAWFIRM=
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: LincolnLover on January 14, 2012, 12:21:02 PM
Ok, how many Americans who don't have the desire to go to an ABA school do you honestly expect to have the desire to do that though?

In reality how many Americans plan to move to another country to practice though?

You do not need to be resident to practice. You can fly in or apply the law of that jurisidiction as needed for clients.  Over 200 US licensed English solicitors are in the US.

http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/choosingandusing/findasolicitor/action=lawfirmsearch.law?startrow=51&COUNTRY=UNITED STATES OF AMERICA&PANELMEM=&LAWFIRM=
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: Opie58 on January 14, 2012, 02:00:08 PM
Here are the admission requirements for Washington State – http://www.wsba.org/Licensing-and-Lawyer-Conduct/Admissions/Bar-Exam-Admissions/Qualifications-for-Bar-Exam

For out of state lawyers, you …

“… may sit for the bar exam if you are admitted to the practice of law in any state or territory of the United States or District of Columbia, or you are admitted to the practice of law in any jurisdiction where the common law of England is the basis of its jurisprudence, and:

*‘Active legal experience’ means experience:
in a state or territory of the U.S. or in the District of Columbia or in any jurisdiction where the common law of England is the basis of its jurisprudence.”
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 14, 2012, 02:25:33 PM
I like the Washington rules on active legal experience since it does not tie one physically to practicing law in a particular jurisdiction physically.  These days, it is quite possible to be resident in a state and not licensed there and practicing Social Security or Immigration law which is tied to a nationwide federal practice.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 14, 2012, 02:34:07 PM
Ok, how many Americans who don't have the desire to go to an ABA school do you honestly expect to have the desire to do that though?


Why not since so many opportunities are closed to us in the US?
Those are common law jurisdictions and major jurisdictions for commerce and finance. 
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree (American Samoa)
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 14, 2012, 03:17:30 PM
American Samoa looks possible if one is a member of the DC bar (California has no reciprocity) and the reciprocity rule is interpreted as trumping the Education rule.

RULE 137. EDUCATION. The applicant must demonstrate the necessary qualifications of learning and ability by proof of having been admitted to practice law before the highest court of record of a State or Territory of the United States or of a foreign country where the English common law forms substantially the basis of that country's jurisprudence, and where English is the language of instruction and practice in the courts of that jurisdiction; provided that such prior Bar admission was premised upon proof of graduation from an accredited law school and successful completion of a bar examination or of equivalent indicia of learning and ability.

Effective August 29, 1989

RULE 138. RECIPROCITY. The fact that an applicant has practiced for a period of 2 years or more before the highest court of record in a State, Territory of the United States, or of a foreign country where the English common law forms substantially the basis of that country's jurisprudence, where English is the language of instruction and practice in the courts of that jurisdiction, and which State, Territory, or country extends reciprocity to American Samoa is prima facie evidence of the applicant's fitness to practice law in American Samoa and to be admitted to the Bar on reciprocity, reserving to the Standing Committee the power to review such circumstances as might be necessary.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: LincolnLover on January 14, 2012, 03:26:46 PM
Not saying a lawyer in general wouldn't seek work there, but if someone has that much ambition, why not take the ambition to get into an ABA school to begin with?

Ok, how many Americans who don't have the desire to go to an ABA school do you honestly expect to have the desire to do that though?


Why not since so many opportunities are closed to us in the US?
Those are common law jurisdictions and major jurisdictions for commerce and finance.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 14, 2012, 03:59:54 PM
Not saying a lawyer in general wouldn't seek work there, but if someone has that much ambition, why not take the ambition to get into an ABA school to begin with?

You have got to be kidding, right?  DL students have ten times more ambition, drive and experience than your average 23 year old ABA law school student.  You should stop drinking that ABA Kool Aid, next you will be telling me DL students go to DL schools because they can't get into a ABA school or are lazy?

People choose DL for a number of reasons including:

1.  They have a full-time job;
2.  They are precluded by geography from attending a ABA school.
3.  They have family responsibilites like children or elderly parents to take care of;
4.  They can't afford it.

Someone who cannot cut it academically at a ABA school is not going to pass the FYBE or the California Bar.

The whole point of this exercise is that once DL students pass the bar and begin their successful careers as attorneys they are denied for no good reason the same opportunities ABA graduates receive regardless of their merit.  We are looking opportunities here.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: LincolnLover on January 14, 2012, 04:08:29 PM
I am looking into DL schools too, but the list of reasons why they couldn't go to an ABA school are the same reasons that would limit their ability to leave the nation.

Not saying a lawyer in general wouldn't seek work there, but if someone has that much ambition, why not take the ambition to get into an ABA school to begin with?

You have got to be kidding, right?  DL students have ten times more ambition, drive and experience than your average 23 year old ABA law school student.  You should stop drinking that ABA Kool Aid, next you will be telling me DL students go to DL schools because they can't get into a ABA school or are lazy?

People choose DL for a number of reasons including:

1.  They have a full-time job;
2.  They are precluded by geography from attending a ABA school.
3.  They have family responsibilites like children or elderly parents to take care of;
4.  They can't afford it.

Someone who cannot cut it academically at a ABA school is not going to pass the FYBE or the California Bar.

The whole point of this exercise is that once DL students pass the bar and begin their successful careers as attorneys they are denied for no good reason the same opportunities ABA graduates receive regardless of their merit.  We are looking opportunities here.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 14, 2012, 05:36:07 PM
"I am looking into DL schools too, but the list of reasons why they couldn't go to an ABA school are the same reasons that would limit their ability to leave the nation"

Circumstances change with time .
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree (American Samoa)
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 15, 2012, 06:51:36 AM
American Samoa looks possible if one is a member of the DC bar (California has no reciprocity) and the reciprocity rule is interpreted as trumping the Education rule.

Looks like you have to be resident in that jurisdiction though, no non resident attorneys will be admitted.

Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree (Maine)
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 15, 2012, 07:04:22 AM
The question here is whether one can argue that DL schools are accredited by California.  My understanding is that they may not be, they are just registered with the state.  Therefore a potentilal issue would be convincing Maine that for the purposes of their statute registered means the same thing as state accredited or is of no consequence since the applicant already is a practicing attorney.

CAN ATTORNEYS ADMITTED IN ANOTHER STATE QUALIFY FOR A MODIFIED EXAMINATION?

Yes. The Maine Board of Bar Examiners offers two types of modified examinations, which are described in MBAR 10(e).

Under MBAR 10(e)(1)(i), if an attorney has been admitted by examination to practice in one or more jurisdictions in the United States and has been in the active practice of law for at least 3 of the preceding 5 years in a jurisdiction in which he or she is licensed, the attorney may elect to take only the first day of the Maine Bar Examination. In addition, these attorneys are not required to use a Multistate Bar Examination (MBE) score.

Under MBAR 10(e)(1)(ii), an applicant who has taken the Multistate Bar Examination (MBE) within 61 months prior to the current administration of the Maine examination may elect to take only the first day of the Maine Bar Examination and use the prior MBE score.

Under MBAR 10(e)(2), an applicant who qualifies under MBAR 10(e)(1)(i) or (ii) and who has a MBE score of 155 or better on an examination which the applicant passed, is qualified to elect to take only the first two questions on the Maine Bar Examination. These questions cover one or more of the following: Maine's Code of Professional Responsibility, Maine's Rules of Evidence and Maine's Rules of Civil, Appellate and Criminal Procedure

WHAT IF I ATTENDED A NON-ABA ACCREDITED LAW SCHOOL?

Maine Bar Admission Rule 10 (c) (3)) requires that applicants who graduate from a non-ABA accredited program must be admitted and practice in a jurisdiction for three years before they are eligible to sit for the Maine bar. MBAR 10(c)(3). Graduates of the Massachusetts School of Law are eligible to sit for the Maine bar exam if they have been admitted in Massachusetts and file a certificate of good standing with the Board:


(3) graduated from a law school accredited by the United States jurisdiction in
which it is located
and has been admitted to practice by examination in one or more
jurisdictions within the United States and has been in active practice there for at least
3 years
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: Duncanjp on January 15, 2012, 08:52:13 PM
This isn't really a DL post I'm about to write, but it may add some food for thought. I'm a 2L at a California-accredited law school. There are advantages and disadvantages of a CBA school to any ABA school in CA.

ADVANTAGES of CBA
1. The tuition is about one-third the cost of the cheapest ABA school in California, which means you don't graduate owing the equivalent of a 30-year mortgage to a lender. I won't owe anybody one thin dime when I graduate.
2. If you maintain at least a C in all core 1L classes, you don't have to take the baby bar.
3. CBA schools allow you to hold down your current career while attending law school at night.
4. The quality of the classroom sessions and the coursework equate to what you'd get at an ABA school. My property professor got his J.D. from USC, and that's what he said, anyway. (I would know if I were being dealt a bill of goods on this point. The quality of the education is excellent, in my opinion.)
5. CBA schools are sometimes found in locales where the closest ABA school may be 200 miles away or more, depending on the circumstances.
6. Even if you barely speak English, they'll probably give you a chance to take a stab at 1L. So if you were an average student in college or got an average score on the LSAT, you have a good chance of getting accepted. And if in fact you can't handle it, see No. 1.
7. CBA graduates who pass the bar are found practicing law and sitting as judges all over California.
8. If you're already experienced, connected and successful in a field that you do not intend to leave, and a law license could enhance your existing career, then a CBA degree will take you to the next level. After all, you're successful already, yes? The goal here is singular: get the license. The prestige of the J.D. here is of little worth. Just get the license. Mission accomplished. The world is your oyster. As long as you're somewhere in California.

DISADVANTAGES
1. Oh Lord, you're stuck in Lodi. Forever. There are some exceptions, e.g., in-house counsel seem to have some freedom to move around the country after a few years of practice, but for the most part, if you don't intend to stay in CA, a CBA school is a total waste of money.
2. Forget Biglaw. Period.
3. As a direct result of Advantage No. 6 above, a percentage of people in 1L courses probably shouldn't be there. We lost more than a third of our class going into 2L, although in fairness, there were many reasons why people didn't return besides just grades.
4. A number of ABA students who have never done a tour of duty in the military, nor gone anywhere or done anything in life except attend school, are convinced that they are inherently superior to everything that walks and talks. Especially to the lowly CBA graduate. This character trait attaches to the personality profile and unships with great reluctance. Deal with it. This cannot be changed.
5. You'll have fewer career options.
6. You will have less prestige among other attorneys. You are not at all among the elite. This is the social and professional "relation back doctrine." See Disadvantage No. 4.
7. Unless you have the experience mentioned in Advantage No. 8, you're very likely to end up in criminal law if you make it all the way. I don't know the stats, and this isn't absolute. But I would risk five bucks I'm right.
8. Most CBA schools with which I am familiar take four years to complete. ABA schools usually take three, unless they're part time.
9. Statistically, your odds of passing the bar on the first try are only 50-50. This bears some discussion. I do not believe that this has anything to do with getting a J.D. from a CBA school. It goes to the average academic abilities of CBA students taken as a whole. The A/B students who make it through a CBA education are highly intelligent, highly motivated, and would do just fine in an ABA school. And they tend to pass the bar on the first try. However, the other half of the CBA bar candidates who graduated with a C average have much greater difficulty passing the CA bar exam, which is well established as being one of the hardest bar exams in the country.

The practical upshot is, there are advantages and disadvantages to attending a CBA school. The same can be said for ABA schools, as shown by all the scambloggers across the internet screaming bloody murder about the size of their debt and the lack of jobs to be had. Whichever course you take, you need to weigh the decision carefully and pragmatically, taking into account the totality of your circumstances. (I just had to say that. I have my crim pro final in two weeks. This thread is a #$%&! distraction.)
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 16, 2012, 06:30:49 AM
DISADVANTAGES
1. Oh Lord, you're stuck in Lodi. Forever. There are some exceptions, e.g., in-house counsel seem to have some freedom to move around the country after a few years of practice, but for the most part, if you don't intend to stay in CA, a CBA school is a total waste of money.


Not necessarily after 5 years you have options also federal practice which we can discuss in another thread opens up all manner of possibilities.
Besides California is a huge state. In house counsel is not likely going be an option nor is working for the government, they all copy each others ads and put ABA only need apply even if the HR people haven't slightest idea what that means.  You want limited opportunities, try getting a DL degree.

2. Forget Biglaw. Period.

I agree but who want to go here?

3. As a direct result of Advantage No. 6 above, a percentage of people in 1L courses probably shouldn't be there. We lost more than a third of our class going into 2L, although in fairness, there were many reasons why people didn't return besides just grades.

That's a good thing, the ABA schools retain a lot of fools who then cause upteen problems once they become attorneys.

4. A number of ABA students who have never done a tour of duty in the military, nor gone anywhere or done anything in life except attend school, are convinced that they are inherently superior to everything that walks and talks. Especially to the lowly CBA graduate. This character trait attaches to the personality profile and unships with great reluctance. Deal with it. This cannot be changed.

Nothing worse than 23 year olds who are focused just on money, a good reason to avoid them if you are not one of the herd.

5. You'll have fewer career options.

Not necessaruly, as a licensed California attorney you have the same options any other attorney does but definitely not Big Law. Go get some specialized training post qualification and you will be ahead of 90% of ABA grads in tjhe knowledge department.

6. You will have less prestige among other attorneys. You are not at all among the elite. This is the social and professional "relation back doctrine." See Disadvantage No. 4.

Well that's for sure.

7. Unless you have the experience mentioned in Advantage No. 8, you're very likely to end up in criminal law if you make it all the way. I don't know the stats, and this isn't absolute. But I would risk five bucks I'm right.

Criminal law, Workers Comp. Social Secuirty Disability, Family Law, Real estate law are all abosolutely great places to start your practice.  If you want to represent General Motors or an Insurance company you went to the wrong school. if you want to work with actual people you did the right thing. if you want to be some body slave to a law partner go to an ABA school.

8. Most CBA schools with which I am familiar take four years to complete. ABA schools usually take three, unless they're part time.

true, the extra year is likely an edge in passing the bar.

9. Statistically, your odds of passing the bar on the first try are only 50-50. This bears some discussion. I do not believe that this has anything to do with getting a J.D. from a CBA school. It goes to the average academic abilities of CBA students taken as a whole. The A/B students who make it through a CBA education are highly intelligent, highly motivated, and would do just fine in an ABA school. And they tend to pass the bar on the first try. However, the other half of the CBA bar candidates who graduated with a C average have much greater difficulty passing the CA bar exam, which is well established as being one of the hardest bar exams in the country.

Right, depends on the individual has nothing to do with the school.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: Duncanjp on January 16, 2012, 11:48:19 AM
8. Most CBA schools with which I am familiar take four years to complete. ABA schools usually take three, unless they're part time.

true, the extra year is likely an edge in passing the bar.

This is not borne out by the pass-fail statistics, Jon. Part-time law students fail the bar in substantially greater numbers than full-time ABA students. There is doubtless much to be said about the focus that full-time students give to their bar preparation versus part-timers, who are holding down full-time jobs and fitting study in where they can. What gets overlooked by strictly-ABA advocates, however, is the extraordinary drive, energy, and exceptional ability that it requires of a person to attend an evening law school and then to pass the bar while holding down a career position. Show me somebody who can do that and I'll show you somebody who could waltz through an ABA program one-handed. Yet one cannot say, "Show me any ABA student and I'll show you somebody who could hold down a career position AND make it through evening law school." The proof here is only in the doing.

That said, it's gratifying to note that several of my company attorneys have observed that they Do recognize and appreciate this. But the fact remains, state-accredited schools are working class schools. You can have a rewarding, satisfying legal career, and you may be just as skillful in your practice as any Harvard graduate, but you'll always be a blue collar attorney.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 16, 2012, 12:08:24 PM
What is a blue collar attorney exactly? I work in shorts and a t-shirt most of the time.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: Duncanjp on January 16, 2012, 01:45:26 PM
What is a blue collar attorney exactly? I work in shorts and a t-shirt most of the time.

You won't appear in court like that. And I doubt you'll be allowed to dress like that during business hours working even for a small law firm. But if you're going to hang your own shingle outside your door, dress the way you want. If you feel you will be taken just as seriously by your clients, your employer, your opponents at law, and society at large, do it. It's your career.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 16, 2012, 03:32:58 PM
But sorry what is a blue collar attorney, is that an attorney who represents people instead of big corporations?

Shingle outside of door?  That is so 1991.  Website on Internet is where its at.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: Duncanjp on January 16, 2012, 04:00:49 PM
Carry on, bud. My crim pro final is looming and I've got work to do. Best of luck with your studies.  :)
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 16, 2012, 05:26:56 PM
Good luck.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree (New Mexico)
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 17, 2012, 06:52:15 AM
California DL grads can take the NM Bar if they are attorneys.

"Applicants from other law schools should have been engaged in the practice of law in another state or states for at least four (4) of the six (6) years immediately preceding his/her application for admission to practice in New Mexico.  Such an applicant should have been in good standing in such state or states."

be aware that New Mexico is very strict about interpreting the practice requirement, they expect you to physically practice in the state in which you are licensed.  They may not accept simply applying that state's law and are holding up a Taft grad who passed their bar for what is essentially a bogus reason, since one need not be physically anywhere to practice law full time, apparently NM has never heard of federal practice that permits any lawyer to practice nationwide in federal courts and before federal agencies which have their own various bar rules on who can practice.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: ipscientific on January 18, 2012, 12:09:48 AM
Are you serious? Anywhere. This is America the land of innovation. If you present your case right, you will get a waiver and be able to sit for the bar. You are a US citizen and should be entitled to take the bar if you studied the law. Believe in yourself!

*edit* I'm optimistic so this is what I said. This is a personal belief. I believe you could attain the waiver in most states, if you pass the bar and have a JD that is accredited. I just don't see how they can deny your efforts if you attain the accredited JD and pass the bar.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 18, 2012, 04:39:03 AM
Are you serious? Anywhere. This is America the land of innovation. If you present your case right, you will get a waiver and be able to sit for the bar. You are a US citizen and should be entitled to take the bar if you studied the law. Believe in yourself!

I agree but Bar Examiners are bound by their rules which exclude all manner of non ABA degrees specifically.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: ipscientific on January 18, 2012, 06:24:43 AM
Are you serious? Anywhere. This is America the land of innovation. If you present your case right, you will get a waiver and be able to sit for the bar. You are a US citizen and should be entitled to take the bar if you studied the law. Believe in yourself!

I agree but Bar Examiners are bound by their rules which exclude all manner of non ABA degrees specifically.


Yea specifically but you apply for a waiver. Also,  I want to add this. You hear a lot about how biglaw is prestigious. I believe there is something more prestigious then biglaw...starting your own business and working for yourself. If you have a JD and a skill and you can't start your own business and be successful then I really don't know what to tell ya. If you pass the bar in CA and can't start your own law firm and find clients I don't know what to tell ya. Why spend years educating yourself to work for someone else your entire life. I can understand a year or two to get experience but after that you should understand enough of your field to be successful on your own.That's my 50 cents and I think that it's priceless. Good luck!






Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 18, 2012, 09:47:14 AM
Do you think they pass out waivers just for the asking like cotton candy at the state fair?  Why would anyone be entitled to a waiver from the rules in the first place which are put there to specifically keep them out of the bar?  That is not my experience, you need to comply with the rules twice over if you are a non ABA attorney. In fact, the only states that will consider a California DL degree lawyer for sure are: DC, Iowa, Wisconsin, New Mexico, and Maryland. DC I know for a fact. New Mexico is uncertain in practice. As for Iowa, Wisconsin, and Maryland, they look striaghtforward on paper but this is no guarantee.

Still be a mmeber of two of the largest bars in the US, California and DC, is pretty good for a degree that cost a fraction an ABA degree.

You may note that Taft is very conservative about promsing anything except a ticket to the state bar.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: ipscientific on January 18, 2012, 12:49:19 PM
Do you think they pass out waivers just for the asking like cotton candy at the state fair?  Why would anyone be entitled to a waiver from the rules in the first place which are put there to specifically keep them out of the bar?  That is not my experience, you need to comply with the rules twice over if you are a non ABA attorney. In fact, the only states that will consider a California DL degree lawyer for sure are: DC, Iowa, Wisconsin, New Mexico, and Maryland. DC I know for a fact. New Mexico is uncertain in practice. As for Iowa, Wisconsin, and Maryland, they look striaghtforward on paper but this is no guarantee.

Still be a mmeber of two of the largest bars in the US, California and DC, is pretty good for a degree that cost a fraction an ABA degree.

You may note that Taft is very conservative about promsing anything except a ticket to the state bar.


Not like cotton candy but assuming that you attain the Taft JD and pass the CA bar why would a state not grant you a waiver? If they didn't grant it then I would appeal. Taft isn't ABA approved and does not have to be. They are in California. They are also accredited by an accrediting body that is approved by the Department of Education. I do not see how a state can not grant a waiver to someone that studies the law for 4 years, documents it, attains the Taft JD, which is accredited and has the Department of Education stamp on it, and passes the CA bar. If this individual cannot get a waiver then don't you think something is wrong with the system? That is my argument, therefore, this individual earned it.




Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 18, 2012, 03:17:20 PM
I think Taft's own materials support this:

Taft is non ABA, it is not accredited, it is registered with the state bar, it is a correspondence school.  Most states specifically in their rules exclude non ABA and correspondence schools.  They do so because they do not want you to be a member of their bar. Short of some extraordinary circumstances they are not going to grant a waiver and they are most assuredly not going to grant a waiver for a non resident.

Of course something is wrong - it is called the ABA.

The department of Education stamp is irrelevant, only California and ABA accreditation matter and Taft does not have either not does taft ever represent that it does.

Once you pass FYBE, you can worry about these matters, until then my advice is concentrate on the FYBE,.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: LincolnLover on January 18, 2012, 03:52:10 PM
Waivers still must meet qualifications to be approved as waivers. You can't apply for a waiver to whatever you want and just "present it the right way". You can't just "try hard enough" and turn water into wine.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: ipscientific on January 18, 2012, 06:57:48 PM
I think Taft's own materials support this:

Taft is non ABA, it is not accredited, it is registered with the state bar, it is a correspondence school.  Most states specifically in their rules exclude non ABA and correspondence schools.  They do so because they do not want you to be a member of their bar. Short of some extraordinary circumstances they are not going to grant a waiver and they are most assuredly not going to grant a waiver for a non resident.

Of course something is wrong - it is called the ABA.

The department of Education stamp is irrelevant, only California and ABA accreditation matter and Taft does not have either not does taft ever represent that it does.

Once you pass FYBE, you can worry about these matters, until then my advice is concentrate on the FYBE,.

Thanks. Taft is accredited by DETC. I disagree that the Department of Education stamp is irrelevant. I'm a resident of Maryland and do not believe I will have a problem. Even if I did, I would be fine in relocating to California. http://www.courts.state.md.us/ble/pdfs/waiver_rule.pdf

Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: ipscientific on January 18, 2012, 07:28:39 PM
Waivers still must meet qualifications to be approved as waivers. You can't apply for a waiver to whatever you want and just "present it the right way". You can't just "try hard enough" and turn water into wine.

No one is trying to apply for a waiver to whatever they want. The waiver applied for would be to sit for another states bar exam. This is the waiver for graduates of Non ABA Law Schools for Maryland. http://www.courts.state.md.us/ble/pdfs/waiver_rule.pdf    Let's keep in mind that this person has already passed the CA bar.

The whole point of applying for a waiver is presenting it the right way. Your not turning water into wine. You are using your JD that you earned from an accredited law school, your documentation of your study of the law for 4 years, your undergraduate and graduate degrees, work experience, and the passing of the CA bar to another state to take the bar of another. More like moving wine from one state to another.

Do you not think a US born citizen that has put this much work into becoming an attorney should be eligible to take the bar exam in another state if they passed the bar of another? The states formed a union long ago and it is called the United States of America. I believe that the American Dream is still alive in a lot of us.

Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 18, 2012, 08:26:52 PM
If you wait 5 years, Maryland will let you take the bar without a waiver.  DC will let you motion in after 5 years as well.  But somehow I think they have non ABA schools that are not DL in mind with that waiver. But no harm trying once you pass the bar.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: ipscientific on January 18, 2012, 08:42:01 PM
If you wait 5 years, Maryland will let you take the bar without a waiver.  DC will let you motion in after 5 years as well.  But somehow I think they have non ABA schools that are not DL in mind with that waiver. But no harm trying once you pass the bar.

Thanks for the info. Non ABA is a Non ABA and this is all so stupid.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: GovLaw on January 19, 2012, 07:19:07 AM
This is one topic that has absolutely been beat to death....
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: LincolnLover on January 19, 2012, 11:42:19 AM
alright, I'll bite ont this......

1) How do you plan to "present it right" (do you have a speach prepared)
2) Have you researched to see if anyone else has applied in your state for a DETC non-aba approval in the past? Were they approved or denied? Did you read the dicta in those cases? What reasons did they give for the approval or denial in those cases? If denied, how is yours more unique than theirs to merit it more than theirs did?

Waivers still must meet qualifications to be approved as waivers. You can't apply for a waiver to whatever you want and just "present it the right way". You can't just "try hard enough" and turn water into wine.

No one is trying to apply for a waiver to whatever they want. The waiver applied for would be to sit for another states bar exam. This is the waiver for graduates of Non ABA Law Schools for Maryland. http://www.courts.state.md.us/ble/pdfs/waiver_rule.pdf    Let's keep in mind that this person has already passed the CA bar.

The whole point of applying for a waiver is presenting it the right way. Your not turning water into wine. You are using your JD that you earned from an accredited law school, your documentation of your study of the law for 4 years, your undergraduate and graduate degrees, work experience, and the passing of the CA bar to another state to take the bar of another. More like moving wine from one state to another.

Do you not think a US born citizen that has put this much work into becoming an attorney should be eligible to take the bar exam in another state if they passed the bar of another? The states formed a union long ago and it is called the United States of America. I believe that the American Dream is still alive in a lot of us.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: LincolnLover on January 19, 2012, 11:46:12 AM
how is it stupid? Sounds like he gave the textbook description of what to do. Courts will look  to that as well. My guess is any waivors they approve will be for people who are licensed in another state already with experience trying to prove their degree is "equal" to an ABA degree when you factor that in.

For the record not all non-aba is the same either. A physical campus goes a long way to proving it's closeness to ABA, especially if the school is trying to meet ABA standards. Most license boards also look higher on Regional Accrediting than National Accrediting too. (just a fact of life)

Oh and "that's stupid"  tends not to count as a winning argument in most cases.

If you wait 5 years, Maryland will let you take the bar without a waiver.  DC will let you motion in after 5 years as well.  But somehow I think they have non ABA schools that are not DL in mind with that waiver. But no harm trying once you pass the bar.

Thanks for the info. Non ABA is a Non ABA and this is all so stupid.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: ipscientific on January 19, 2012, 08:12:06 PM
how is it stupid? Sounds like he gave the textbook description of what to do. Courts will look  to that as well. My guess is any waivors they approve will be for people who are licensed in another state already with experience trying to prove their degree is "equal" to an ABA degree when you factor that in.

For the record not all non-aba is the same either. A physical campus goes a long way to proving it's closeness to ABA, especially if the school is trying to meet ABA standards. Most license boards also look higher on Regional Accrediting than National Accrediting too. (just a fact of life)

Oh and "that's stupid"  tends not to count as a winning argument in most cases.

If you wait 5 years, Maryland will let you take the bar without a waiver.  DC will let you motion in after 5 years as well.  But somehow I think they have non ABA schools that are not DL in mind with that waiver. But no harm trying once you pass the bar.

Thanks for the info. Non ABA is a Non ABA and this is all so stupid.

jonlevy is resourceful and obviously very intelligent. I am aware of this. Thank you Mr. Levy.

lincolnlover, If you don't know what stupid means I don't know what to tell you. But I have sh*t to do. Do you really expect me to dig deep in my mind to answer this? Do you even go to law school? I hope you do not spend your life analyzing non aba law schools and their sub categories. What are there 12 of them in the country? Cmon man.








Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: ipscientific on January 19, 2012, 08:33:40 PM
alright, I'll bite ont this......

1) How do you plan to "present it right" (do you have a speach prepared)
2) Have you researched to see if anyone else has applied in your state for a DETC non-aba approval in the past? Were they approved or denied? Did you read the dicta in those cases? What reasons did they give for the approval or denial in those cases? If denied, how is yours more unique than theirs to merit it more than theirs did?

Waivers still must meet qualifications to be approved as waivers. You can't apply for a waiver to whatever you want and just "present it the right way". You can't just "try hard enough" and turn water into wine.

No one is trying to apply for a waiver to whatever they want. The waiver applied for would be to sit for another states bar exam. This is the waiver for graduates of Non ABA Law Schools for Maryland. http://www.courts.state.md.us/ble/pdfs/waiver_rule.pdf    Let's keep in mind that this person has already passed the CA bar.

The whole point of applying for a waiver is presenting it the right way. Your not turning water into wine. You are using your JD that you earned from an accredited law school, your documentation of your study of the law for 4 years, your undergraduate and graduate degrees, work experience, and the passing of the CA bar to another state to take the bar of another. More like moving wine from one state to another.

Do you not think a US born citizen that has put this much work into becoming an attorney should be eligible to take the bar exam in another state if they passed the bar of another? The states formed a union long ago and it is called the United States of America. I believe that the American Dream is still alive in a lot of us.


1) How do you plan to "present it right" (do you have a speach prepared)

Thanks for biting on this. Presenting it right is sending in what they ask for in my state which is Maryland. Feel free to examine it and check for errors. www.courts.state.md.us/ble/pdfs/waiver_rule.pdf

I just started law school. I have a long way to go before I go for the waiver. I still have to pass the baby bar.


2) Have you researched to see if anyone else has applied in your state for a DETC non-aba approval in the past? Were they approved or denied? Did you read the dicta in those cases? What reasons did they give for the approval or denial in those cases? If denied, how is yours more unique than theirs to merit it more than theirs did?

No, not yet. I have about 3 and a half years until I'll be ready. I'll let you know then. I'm sure you will still be on this board talking about pass rates of Non ABA graduates then.

Thank God I have a life!




Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: LincolnLover on January 21, 2012, 03:21:12 PM
Your responces say all that needs be said on the topic brother. Hope the best for you, but I really don't think you know how the legal system works at all.

For starters you better find "the time" to research a topic before making a case that you hope to win.
Good luck.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: LincolnLover on January 21, 2012, 03:26:25 PM
Thanks for the link. Here is what is says (you either didn't read it or don't understand what it means)

Two key points 1)A  JD (or its equivelent) from an ABA approved school (not or something equal to the ABA)

 2) The "waiver" is for if you have already been practicing and in good standing in another state.

If you practice in CA for a few years first, you can probably win your case. If not, you don't even qualify to apply. Sorry but you have to qualify for a waiver to apply for it.

Waiver for Graduates of Non-ABA Law Schools
The Standard Educational Requirement: A candidate is eligible to take the Maryland Bar
examination only if he or she has completed the pre-legal education necessary to meet the minimum
requirements for admission to an American Bar Association (ABA) approved law school and has
earned the juris doctor (or its equivalent) from a law school approved by the ABA. (See Bar
Admission Rules 3 and 4 and the Annotated Code of Maryland, Business Occupations and
Professions, Section 10-207 (d).)
Waiver of the Standard Educational Requirement: The State Board of Law Examiners
has the discretion to waive the standard educational requirement for any person who (1) has passed
the bar examination of another state and is a member in good standing of the Bar of that state and
(2) in the Board’s opinion is qualified by reason of education, experience, or both to take the bar
examination. (See Bar Admission Rule 4(b).)
Procedure to Petition for a Waiver
A Petition for a Waiver should be in the form of a letter sent to the administrative office of
the State Board of Law Examiners accompanied by the following documents (Photocopies of
documents in your possession are not acceptable. You must contact the proper official and request
documents authenticated with appropriate seals.):
1. A letter of verification from the proper authority that you have taken and passed the Bar
examination in that state (a photocopy is permissible in this case),
2. A current certificate of admission to the Bar of another state from the highest court of that
state and a current certificate of good standing issued by the appropriate authority in the state (in
many states the certificate of admission and the certificate of good standing are combined in a single
document),
3. A detailed description of your pre-legal education indicating the college or university
attended, the date of graduation, and the degree obtained; include an official transcript reflecting all
of the subjects taken and the number of semester hours of credit earned,
4. The name and location of the law school attended, the date of your law school graduation,
and verification of your degree in the form of an official transcript of your law school education,
5. A detailed description of any experience you have in the practice of law.
All supporting documents must accompany your petition for a waiver: Your waiver
request will be denied if you fail to submit all required documentation (described above) with your
petition for a waiver.
Transcripts: If your college or the law school has a policy of not releasing official
transcripts to students, you should request that the college or law school send the transcripts directly
to this office. Advise this office in writing that your transcripts will be sent directly to this office by
the college or law school.
Deadlines for Waiver Requests: The State Board of Law Examiners must have adequate
time to review and consider your credentials.
In order for a waiver request to be considered and acted upon for the bar examination
to be held in February, the request for a waiver and all documentation must be received in this
office no later than the preceding November 20th.
For the July examination, the waiver request and all documentation must be received
in this office no later than the preceding April 20th.
The waiver request and accompanying documents should be sent to:
STATE BOARD OF LAW EXAMINERS
2011-F Commerce Park Drive
Annapolis, MD 21401
If you have questions, please call (410) 260-3640.
Notification of Waiver Approval: When your file is complete, the State Board of Law
Examiners will review it. After a review of the documentation accompanying your request, the
State Board of Law Examiners will make its determination and notify you whether you qualify
for a waiver. If the Board grants the waiver, the appropriate application forms will be mailed to
you with the Board’s decision.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 22, 2012, 06:17:46 AM
"you either didn't read it or don't understand what it means"

In all fairness, statutes and rules, are hard to read and undertsand even if you have practiced law for many years.

One of the good things about DL study is that you can focus on important things for the Bar like memorizing the UCC and some of the key Restatement sections.
Being able to regurgitate that stuff on command when appropriate will impress whoever is grading your exam far more than eloquent arguments based on fact not law.

Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: LincolnLover on January 22, 2012, 09:17:04 AM
Well, when a Prof says it, you know it must be true.  ;D
It is still worth noting that if one expects to win a case in court, he still must meet the qualifications to apply.
Can't make bread without dough.

As for his "have a life" comments, well if one expects to pass law school (and the fybx which has a nearly 3/4 attrition rate to it alone) had better get used to the idea of "not having a life".  :P

"you either didn't read it or don't understand what it means"

In all fairness, statutes and rules, are hard to read and undertsand even if you have practiced law for many years.

One of the good things about DL study is that you can focus on important things for the Bar like memorizing the UCC and some of the key Restatement sections.
Being able to regurgitate that stuff on command when appropriate will impress whoever is grading your exam far more than eloquent arguments based on fact not law.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: Opie58 on January 22, 2012, 06:59:45 PM
While the argument continues to advocate that the states who require ABA law school graduation to take the bar most likely will not grant a waiver, there continues to be tangible examples to the contrary.  Therefore, one really never knows until one tries.

Example #1:  Massachusetts:  Everyone knows about Mitchell v. Board of Bar Examiners, 452 Mass 582, http://masscases.com/cases/sjc/452/452mass582.html.

Examples #2:  Idaho:  See http://isb.idaho.gov/pdf/rules/ibcr.pdf.  Rule 201 says “… successful completion of a degree from an Approved Law School, …”  Rule 200(e) defines “Approved Law School” as fully or provisionally approved by the ABA.  In 2001, a gentleman from Idaho graduated from Taft Law School & passed the CA Bar exam.  In 2002, he petitioned Idaho & was granted to take the Idaho Bar exam; no 3-5 years of experience.  He passed & is still practicing in Idaho.  (We exchanged emails, so I know this to be true & current).

These are just a couple of examples I personally know about; I’m sure there are others & it would be great if we, non-ABA folks, could mutually combine our knowledge with viable examples to create a database, per se, to assist in preparing those who wish to “rock the boat” and defy the nay-sayers.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 22, 2012, 07:41:09 PM
Note none of these are DL school graudates - online and correspondence grads are going to have the toughest time of it.


Louis v. Supreme Court of Nevada, 490 F. Supp. 1174 (D. Nev.1980),  dealt with a generalized challenge to the Nevada Bar's practice of waiving objections to the non-ABA accredited law schools that men attended and allowing them to take the bar, but refusing to grant similar waivers to women thereby precluding such women from taking the bar.

Nordgren v. Hafter, Civil Action No. E84-0130(L), UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF MISSISSIPPI, EASTERN DIVISION, 616 F. Supp. 742; 1985 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 16453, August 27, 1985
Plaintiff has no constitutional right to sit for the Mississippi bar examination without complying with the educational requirements of § 73-3-2 and Rule V. The ABA-accredition requirement is rationally related to the state's legitimate interest in ensuring that each applicant for the bar has a uniform quality legal education

In the Matter of the Application of Margaret L. MACARTNEY and Roger M. Sherman, to be Admitted as a Member of the State Bar of the State of Arizona
163 Ariz. 116; 786 P.2d 967; 1990 Ariz. LEXIS 278; 53 Ariz. Adv. Rep. 7
Petitioners graduated from the Nevada School of Law Old College (Old College) in Reno, Nevada, a non-ABA accredited school. The court granted the applicants' motion for reconsideration and granted their petition for waiver of the requirement that they have graduated from an ABA-accredited law school prior to sitting for the Arizona bar examination. The applicants were allowed to take the Arizona bar examination, provided they met all other requirements that applied to applicants in general.

In Re Petition of Paul Dolan for Review of the State Board of Law Examiners' Decision and In Re Application of Milton Welsh Schober for Admission to Practice Law in the State of Minnesota, 445 N.W.2d 553; 1989 Minn. LEXIS 224
The court granted the application of the first lawyer that the Board of Law Examiners had recommended be admitted. Regarding the second lawyer, the court ordered that his application be remanded to the Board for development of a complete factual record if he wished to pursue the matter further.

In re Application of Gail Collins-Bazant for Admission to the Nebraska State Bar on Examination.
254 Neb. 614; 578 N.W.2d 38; 1998 Neb. LEXIS 132
The court granted the attorney's application for a waiver of the application of rule 5 and permitted the attorney to sit for the Nebraska bar examination.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: LincolnLover on January 23, 2012, 12:10:51 PM
Not true Prof. I clicked on the link and on the top of the page read the following:

BOTSFORD, J. This bar admission matter comes before us on a reservation and report by a single justice of this court. The plaintiff, Ross Mitchell, is a 2004 graduate of Concord Law School (Concord), a wholly online law school that is authorized by the State of California to grant the degree of juris doctor. Mitchell is also a member of the California bar, having taken and passed that State's bar examination in 2004. Because Mitchell holds his law degree from a school that, by virtue of its online character, does not qualify for accreditation or approval by the American Bar Association (ABA), Mitchell fails to satisfy

After his first efforts to obtain permission to take the bar examination failed, Mitchell filed this action against the Board of Bar Examiners (board) in the county court, challenging the constitutionality of rule 3:01, § 3.3, as applied to him and, in the alternative, seeking an amendment to that rule or a waiver of the rule in his case. We conclude that in the particular circumstances of this case, Mitchell's request for a waiver should be granted

However, one must also note the following:

In connection with the law degree, Mitchell graduated with "highest honors," and was the class valedictorian. [Note 3] Following his graduation, he sat for and passed the California bar examination, and was admitted to the bar of California in November, 2004. [Note 4] He was admitted to practice before the United States Court of Appeals for the First Circuit in December, 2004, and before the United States District Court for the Central District of California in March, 2005.

Caveat: He didn't win because he challenged the rules to apply (waiver on the waiver notion) but he MET the qualifications to apply within the waiver rules (already licensed in another state) That and I bet the class standing helped win over the board as well.


Note none of these are DL school graudates - online and correspondence grads are going to have the toughest time of it.


Louis v. Supreme Court of Nevada, 490 F. Supp. 1174 (D. Nev.1980),  dealt with a generalized challenge to the Nevada Bar's practice of waiving objections to the non-ABA accredited law schools that men attended and allowing them to take the bar, but refusing to grant similar waivers to women thereby precluding such women from taking the bar.

Nordgren v. Hafter, Civil Action No. E84-0130(L), UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF MISSISSIPPI, EASTERN DIVISION, 616 F. Supp. 742; 1985 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 16453, August 27, 1985
Plaintiff has no constitutional right to sit for the Mississippi bar examination without complying with the educational requirements of § 73-3-2 and Rule V. The ABA-accredition requirement is rationally related to the state's legitimate interest in ensuring that each applicant for the bar has a uniform quality legal education

In the Matter of the Application of Margaret L. MACARTNEY and Roger M. Sherman, to be Admitted as a Member of the State Bar of the State of Arizona
163 Ariz. 116; 786 P.2d 967; 1990 Ariz. LEXIS 278; 53 Ariz. Adv. Rep. 7
Petitioners graduated from the Nevada School of Law Old College (Old College) in Reno, Nevada, a non-ABA accredited school. The court granted the applicants' motion for reconsideration and granted their petition for waiver of the requirement that they have graduated from an ABA-accredited law school prior to sitting for the Arizona bar examination. The applicants were allowed to take the Arizona bar examination, provided they met all other requirements that applied to applicants in general.

In Re Petition of Paul Dolan for Review of the State Board of Law Examiners' Decision and In Re Application of Milton Welsh Schober for Admission to Practice Law in the State of Minnesota, 445 N.W.2d 553; 1989 Minn. LEXIS 224
The court granted the application of the first lawyer that the Board of Law Examiners had recommended be admitted. Regarding the second lawyer, the court ordered that his application be remanded to the Board for development of a complete factual record if he wished to pursue the matter further.

In re Application of Gail Collins-Bazant for Admission to the Nebraska State Bar on Examination.
254 Neb. 614; 578 N.W.2d 38; 1998 Neb. LEXIS 132
The court granted the attorney's application for a waiver of the application of rule 5 and permitted the attorney to sit for the Nebraska bar examination.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: Opie58 on January 23, 2012, 01:49:51 PM
... Ross Mitchell, is a 2004 graduate of Concord Law School (Concord), a wholly online law school ...

Oops, I error - Taft or Concord, both fit in the same category.  But, the point still remains - you never know until you try.  The MA Board attempted to deny based on his not having an ABA approved law degree; however, he pursued the matter further & was granted the waiver - exceptions can be made if you put together a valid argument and attempt to obtain an exception.  Could've, would've, should've are all subjective; facts are facts - and the facts are it can be done if people try; the more excepts are made, the relevant the non-ABA/DL position.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 23, 2012, 07:28:14 PM
Two instances of successful petitions for DL grads, to me that says chances of anyone else getting past the correspondence school black list are slim and none. Unless you can show me a few more, I'd say petitioning is largely a waste of time and effort. Better to concentrate on doors that are already open.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: Opie58 on January 23, 2012, 10:48:39 PM
Two instances of successful petitions for DL grads, to me that says chances of anyone else getting past the correspondence school black list are slim and none. Unless you can show me a few more, I'd say petitioning is largely a waste of time and effort. Better to concentrate on doors that are already open.

All I can tell you is the guy from Idaho told me the school had nothing to do with his waiver being granted, it was his having passed the CA bar exam, while Mass. focused on the school's accreditation.  So, again, one never knows until they try.  I haven't done any extensive research to find more - other things to focus on currently - however, some precedent has been set - even small as it is - so I say give it a shot, what do you have to lose.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 24, 2012, 02:46:00 PM
What one has to lose is a lot of time, hassle and expense.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: LincolnLover on January 24, 2012, 04:26:42 PM
worth the note that it will vary a lot by state, so what one guy in says in state A may not matter much in state B.

Two instances of successful petitions for DL grads, to me that says chances of anyone else getting past the correspondence school black list are slim and none. Unless you can show me a few more, I'd say petitioning is largely a waste of time and effort. Better to concentrate on doors that are already open.

All I can tell you is the guy from Idaho told me the school had nothing to do with his waiver being granted, it was his having passed the CA bar exam, while Mass. focused on the school's accreditation.  So, again, one never knows until they try.  I haven't done any extensive research to find more - other things to focus on currently - however, some precedent has been set - even small as it is - so I say give it a shot, what do you have to lose.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: LincolnLover on January 24, 2012, 04:27:26 PM
They have a name for that, its called "lawschool".  ::) ;)

What one has to lose is a lot of time, hassle and expense.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: Opie58 on January 24, 2012, 07:15:43 PM
Geez, I hope I never have to use you guys as my attorney.  Sure, one state’s ruling is not binding precedence in another state – I get that.  But, you’re telling me using the arguments from one state has NEVER worked in swaying a ruling in another state?  What about “persuasive” precedence?  Sounds like you somehow failed your legal reasoning class, or missed that day … or maybe you’re not real lawyers after all.  Sounds pretty basic to me, something like 1L stuff; maybe all bars should have something like California’s first year law student exam and require ALL law students – ABA and non-ABA – to take and pass before proceeding on to the next years.  And don’t tell that they can rule against you – no kidding – that’s why it’s called persuasive – you have to do your homework, put your arguments together, and do your best to persuade the ruling body the best you can.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: LincolnLover on January 25, 2012, 01:32:32 PM
Never said never, said might not, learn to read son.


Geez, I hope I never have to use you guys as my attorney.  Sure, one state’s ruling is not binding precedence in another state – I get that.  But, you’re telling me using the arguments from one state has NEVER worked in swaying a ruling in another state?  What about “persuasive” precedence?  Sounds like you somehow failed your legal reasoning class, or missed that day … or maybe you’re not real lawyers after all.  Sounds pretty basic to me, something like 1L stuff; maybe all bars should have something like California’s first year law student exam and require ALL law students – ABA and non-ABA – to take and pass before proceeding on to the next years.  And don’t tell that they can rule against you – no kidding – that’s why it’s called persuasive – you have to do your homework, put your arguments together, and do your best to persuade the ruling body the best you can.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 25, 2012, 01:33:31 PM
Each state has different admission rules so citing a case from one state in another state generally isn't going to be much help. The two cases mentioned so far do not persuade me that DL degree holders would fair very well on petitiuons even with substantial practice experience. If you read enough of these rules, you will see a good number of states go out of their way to ban correspondence degrees from any consideration.  Best chance would be in a state that has non ABA schools.

But on the whole the entire matter is ridiculous, a DL degreeholder can argue a case before the US Supreme Court and US Circuit Courts of Appeal but cannot represent a DUI case in most states. I have nothing but contempt for the entire ABA scam.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: LincolnLover on January 25, 2012, 01:38:02 PM
People tend to apply to lawschool since they are told they are " good arguers" so they think they can hencluck their way into anything because they will "word it better" and if you call them out on it (but asking a simple "how" and "what about x" they say stupid,cry, and run away because they are "better than you")

Any wonder that the VAST majority don't even make it to finish 2L (in a 4 year plan) ? Dosn't suprise me a damn  bit.
Heck DL admissions and attiritions make 4T's like Cooley and Whittier look like Harvard and Yale.

I respect those who make it all the way to graduate and license since they are winners or one hell of an uphill battle. Easy in, hard out I guess.
I still see why you chose to go to get extra degrees including doctorates and becoming a Prof though. When people see DL they probably think of the ones that make the group look bad, so I can see why adding extra qualifications that even most ABA grads don't have would be a good idea.
If I do go the DL route, I plan to do the same idea Prof.

Each state has different admission rules so citing a case from one state in another state generally isn't going to be much help. The two cases mentioned so far do not persuade me that DL degree holders would fair very well on petitiuons even with substantial practice experience. If you read enough of these rules, you will see a good number of states go out of their way to ban correspondence degrees from any consideration.  Best chance would be in a state that has non ABA schools.

But on the whole the entire matter is ridiculous, a DL degreeholder can argue a case before the US Supreme Court and US Circuit Courts of Appeal but cannot represent a DUI case in most states. I have nothing but contempt for the entire ABA scam.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 25, 2012, 03:06:35 PM
I added the extra credentials because I moved away from California and couldn't get admitted anywhere except DC.  Works for me.  I did the DL route because I tried law school and hated it with a passion.  The lectures caused me mental anguish. Then I saw how lawyers did less work and got paid more, so gave DL a try. My GPA was ridiculously low at Taft but I had no problem with FYBE and Bar.

DL students fail for several reasons:

1.  lack of time commitment
2.  lack of basic reading and writing skills
3.  inability to memorize and retain information
4.  lack of previous exposure to the legal system

Successful DL grads likely would for the most part of have been admitted to a regular law school.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: Opie58 on January 25, 2012, 08:09:02 PM
Well, if my home state won't let me test for the bar, I'll use my CA Bar & practice Federal Law only - more than one way to skin a cat.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: LincolnLover on January 26, 2012, 01:13:55 PM
what do you consider a low GPA? It couldn't have been too bad if you got into additional grad programs after that.
It is interesting that GPA seems not to have a direct link to bar pass rates. Do you think there is any reason why? Is it different types of testing involved?

I added the extra credentials because I moved away from California and couldn't get admitted anywhere except DC.  Works for me.  I did the DL route because I tried law school and hated it with a passion.  The lectures caused me mental anguish. Then I saw how lawyers did less work and got paid more, so gave DL a try. My GPA was ridiculously low at Taft but I had no problem with FYBE and Bar.

DL students fail for several reasons:

1.  lack of time commitment
2.  lack of basic reading and writing skills
3.  inability to memorize and retain information
4.  lack of previous exposure to the legal system

Successful DL grads likely would for the most part of have been admitted to a regular law school.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: LincolnLover on January 26, 2012, 01:15:47 PM
Sounds like a good backup plan. Do you plan to actually practice in CA at all, or do you mean that you would just pass the CA bar and make a solo practioner business soley on federal court?

Well, if my home state won't let me test for the bar, I'll use my CA Bar & practice Federal Law only - more than one way to skin a cat.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 26, 2012, 05:47:46 PM
Taft GPA was 2.79 but maybe that was before everyone expected an A or a B by right.  The only testing as I remember it were proctored essay tests.


what do you consider a low GPA? It couldn't have been too bad if you got into additional grad programs after that.
It is interesting that GPA seems not to have a direct link to bar pass rates. Do you think there is any reason why? Is it different types of testing involved?

I added the extra credentials because I moved away from California and couldn't get admitted anywhere except DC.  Works for me.  I did the DL route because I tried law school and hated it with a passion.  The lectures caused me mental anguish. Then I saw how lawyers did less work and got paid more, so gave DL a try. My GPA was ridiculously low at Taft but I had no problem with FYBE and Bar.

DL students fail for several reasons:

1.  lack of time commitment
2.  lack of basic reading and writing skills
3.  inability to memorize and retain information
4.  lack of previous exposure to the legal system

Successful DL grads likely would for the most part of have been admitted to a regular law school.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: Opie58 on January 26, 2012, 10:35:07 PM
Sounds like a good backup plan. Do you plan to actually practice in CA at all, or do you mean that you would just pass the CA bar and make a solo practioner business soley on federal court?

Well, if my home state won't let me test for the bar, I'll use my CA Bar & practice Federal Law only - more than one way to skin a cat.

My vision is to stay in Washington State and do something for Vets – like Veteran & Military Appeals.  Also, Tax Court & Enrolled Agent for low income people has a spark of interest, with a touch in defense at the Fed District Court level, since I’m a 30+ year cop/firefighter/EMT.  Still in the planning/research stages.

I guess the point I attempt to make with people looking at DL schools is that options are available if you look outside the box.  Sure, state legal services are most known, but don’t forget the Federal level; two different sovereigns, two different systems.  You are only limited within your own mind.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 27, 2012, 06:09:45 AM
You can do Vets, Tax, and Social Security advocacy now without a law license to one degree or another. Once you have the law license from California, even though you are in federal administrative practice, the Washington state bar may take a dim view of you opening an office and advertising as an attorney with only a California license.  This is a very gray area if you intend to have a physical presence in Washington. Since you would be competing with Washington licensed lawyers in the same field, eventually you will be subject to to a UPL (unlicensed practice of law) referal to the state bar. So instead of being outside the box, you will be in the box unless you plan accordingly and do your due diligence to avoid such issues.  But the issue arises all the time - one just needs to be aware how to avoid it.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: LincolnLover on January 27, 2012, 01:42:52 PM
That makes sense since when people say "allowed to practice in federal court" I tend to think of someone representing a CA client in a diversity case that just happens to endup in WA, VA, etc.

You can do Vets, Tax, and Social Security advocacy now without a law license to one degree or another. Once you have the law license from California, even though you are in federal administrative practice, the Washington state bar may take a dim view of you opening an office and advertising as an attorney with only a California license.  This is a very gray area if you intend to have a physical presence in Washington. Since you would be competing with Washington licensed lawyers in the same field, eventually you will be subject to to a UPL (unlicensed practice of law) referal to the state bar. So instead of being outside the box, you will be in the box unless you plan accordingly and do your due diligence to avoid such issues.  But the issue arises all the time - one just needs to be aware how to avoid it.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 28, 2012, 07:19:41 AM
Most federal district courts restrict bar membership to in state attorneys, some require co-counsel on cases, the minority permit out of state attorneys to become members, ND Illinois, USDC North Dakota, USDC Puerto Rico come to mind.  The Circuit Courts of Appeals are more liberal. But even though I can represent a client in the 11th Circuit in Atlanta, I cannot set up an office there because I am not a Georgia attorney. For a single case, pro hac vice is always available but that usually but not always requires local counsel. And therein lies the idiocy of the entire scheme, the higher the court, the less thaty are concerned about your law degree or where your state bar membership is from.

There is a lawsuit in California ongoing about this:

http://www.mjplaw.org/index.html
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: LincolnLover on January 28, 2012, 09:10:27 AM
You'd think they'd create a federal bar to pass and have it seperate from the state bars and that could be the end of it.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 28, 2012, 04:05:20 PM
Nope each and every federal court and agency (if applicable) has its own rules.  The good news is that DL degree holders who pass the Cal Bar can join many of them on motion.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: LincolnLover on January 29, 2012, 03:31:57 PM
Right, I get that part. What I'm saying is that it would make more sense if  all federal courts were the same standard, since all being federal.

Nope each and every federal court and agency (if applicable) has its own rules.  The good news is that DL degree holders who pass the Cal Bar can join many of them on motion.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: legalpractitioner on January 30, 2012, 03:38:30 PM
You obviously have not attended law school, common sense and law are mutually exclusive.
Title: Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
Post by: LincolnLover on January 31, 2012, 12:46:45 PM
 ;D

You obviously have not attended law school, common sense and law are mutually exclusive.