Law School Discussion

Law Students => Online Law Schools => Topic started by: passaroa25 on May 14, 2011, 06:04:03 AM

Title: All Online Law School Students
Post by: passaroa25 on May 14, 2011, 06:04:03 AM
Do those of you who are currently enrolled in any online law school want to get involved in discussing court opinions, on this forum, so that we can practice thinking like attorneys?
Title: Re: All Online Law School Students
Post by: john4040 on May 14, 2011, 07:19:28 AM
Do those of you who are currently enrolled in any online law school want to get involved in discussing court opinions, on this forum, so that we can practice thinking like attorneys?

lol.....
Title: Re: All Online Law School Students
Post by: passaroa25 on May 15, 2011, 03:13:55 PM
I guess the answer is "No."  Oh well.
Title: Re: All Online Law School Students
Post by: john4040 on May 15, 2011, 08:46:38 PM
I guess the answer is "No."  Oh well.

Let's start out with Pennoyer v. Neff.... you can go first.
Title: Re: All Online Law School Students
Post by: passaroa25 on May 18, 2011, 11:34:22 PM
Okay.  Let me read it again.  I'll brief it and post what I think the court is saying within 24 hours. 
Title: Re: All Online Law School Students
Post by: john4040 on May 19, 2011, 11:49:39 AM
Okay.  Let me read it again.  I'll brief it and post what I think the court is saying within 24 hours.

No using Google or any other outside source.  You must rely only on your own reading comprehension abilities and analytical skills.  Afterall, you're being trained to think like a lawyer here....
Title: Re: All Online Law School Students
Post by: FalconJimmy on May 19, 2011, 12:10:33 PM
Okay.  Let me read it again.  I'll brief it and post what I think the court is saying within 24 hours.

Wow, dude, stop!

He's messing with you. 

Penoyer v. Neff is a case that is so commonly cited in 1L classes that you should be able to cite the relevance to Civil Procedure off the top of your head.

It is pretty much like the equivalent of Newton's first law of motion in an introductory class on physics.

What he's basically saying, and what you appear to be proving, is that online law school is a ridiculous waste of time and money.
Title: Re: All Online Law School Students
Post by: john4040 on May 19, 2011, 12:38:47 PM
Okay.  Let me read it again.  I'll brief it and post what I think the court is saying within 24 hours.

Wow, dude, stop!

He's messing with you. 

 ;D    I'm just training him to think like a lawyer.


Attended California Southern for a year in the 80s, currently attending Mid-Atlantic School of Law, studying for NALA’s Certified Legal Assistant Exam, just completed an online paralegal program.  What an odd path.

Edit:  I see now why he would be unfamiliar with Pennoyer v. Neff.  His school uses Gilbert Law Summaries for textbooks...
http://www.midatlanticlaw.org/Page2.html
Title: Re: All Online Law School Students
Post by: passaroa25 on May 20, 2011, 01:06:09 AM
No body of law is as simple as you think it is, FalconJimmy.   It seems as though you didn't read haven't reviewed Pennoyer v. Neff recently either.  If you did, you would know that one of the  things the court said was that the land Neff wanted back could not be sold to satisfy a previous default judgment.   It also discussed in personam jurisdiction vs. jurisdiction in rem.   I didn't see anything in Pennoyer v. Neff about all the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.  How, can it be the foundation of civil procedure without the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure?  And, if you paid attention to my autobiography, you would remember that I was a 1L at the Mercer School of Law in the 80s.  California Southern was in 2008.  My odd path is because I'm depending on my own lack of money. 

And, before you write Mid-Atlantic off, I challenge you to read all the cases cited  in just chapter one of the Gilberts' Outline, alone, (we read all the cases in each volume) and tell me you still remember what the court said in Pennoyer before you express such dismay at my having to review it.  You obviously have not attended any online law school.  Otherwise, you wouldn't make such presumptive statements.  Any school, online or otherwise, it what the student makes of it.  The student does the reading and the learning by his or her efforts alone.  Online and correspondence law schools are not a waste of time.  The concept has been  proven worthy in Great Britain for the last hundred years.

And, you John, should pay more attention to detail as well.  If you read what I said, I indicated that I would have to read Pennoyer again.  And, did you also know that being deceptive is not encouraged in the field of law?  You acted as though you were interested in a sincere discussion and later, admitted to wanting to teach me a thing or two about "thinking like a lawyer."   I think that one of the reasons why attorneys have such a bad reputation is because some of them really think like you do: saying one thing and thinking something entirely different.

By the way, dudes, I am not a dude.  Don't make assumptions.
Title: Re: All Online Law School Students
Post by: FalconJimmy on May 20, 2011, 04:39:48 AM
No body of law is as simple as you think it is, FalconJimmy.   

Dude, person, chicka, whoever you are, you were being mocked.  I was trying to help you. 

I absolutely do not have much of a grasp of any body of law.  That's not a fact I attempt to conceal.  Nor do I think I could write a doctoral dissertation on Newton's first law of mechanics, but I do know that if I walked into a room and said, "hey, let's talk about physics" and somebody said, "Okay, you start:  tell us what you know about Newton's first law", I'd know I was being made sport of.

If it's important to you, wow, you got a biggo brain and your school is the best school in the state. 

And perhaps apropos of nothing:  you clearly have dug into Penoyer v. Neff, but as a law student, the point to emphasize is the one you briefly touched on in terms of personal jurisdiction.  You might get a bonus point for the other items you mentioned, but personal jurisdiction is the point to focus on for your civ pro class, which is where Penoyer is going to be taught. 

I have no reason to doubt that you're an intelligent, articulate person.  I can only hope that your online education is sufficient to bring out the potential of your personal abilities.

Best of luck with your studies and career.
Title: Re: All Online Law School Students
Post by: john4040 on May 20, 2011, 06:17:47 AM
I didn't see anything in Pennoyer v. Neff about all the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.  How, can it be the foundation of civil procedure without the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure?

(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk169/revived5656/facepalm.jpg)

And, before you write Mid-Atlantic off, I challenge you to read all the cases cited  in just chapter one of the Gilberts' Outline, alone, (we read all the cases in each volume) and tell me you still remember what the court said in Pennoyer before you express such dismay at my having to review it.  You obviously have not attended any online law school.  Otherwise, you wouldn't make such presumptive statements.  Any school, online or otherwise, it what the student makes of it.  The student does the reading and the learning by his or her efforts alone.  Online and correspondence law schools are not a waste of time.  The concept has been  proven worthy in Great Britain for the last hundred years.

What I said wasn't a knock to your school.  Your school uses Gilberts as textbooks.  Gilberts, or any other supplements (nutshells), usually focus on the law as it currently exists rather than the developmental aspects of the law (Pennoyer v. Neff).  Essentially, your online law school is a giant bar review course.

And, did you also know that being deceptive is not encouraged in the field of law?  You acted as though you were interested in a sincere discussion and later, admitted to wanting to teach me a thing or two about "thinking like a lawyer."   I think that one of the reasons why attorneys have such a bad reputation is because some of them really think like you do: saying one thing and thinking something entirely different.

I guess you couldn't catch the sarcasm oozing out of any of my posts.  Please don't report me to the ethics committee.... lol   ::) 
Title: Re: All Online Law School Students
Post by: the white rabbit on May 20, 2011, 06:38:44 AM
Here I was under the impression that the real significance of Pennoyer was to root the concept of personal jurisdiction in the Fourteenth Amendment.
Title: Re: All Online Law School Students
Post by: FalconJimmy on May 20, 2011, 06:40:54 AM
Here I was under the impression that the real significance of Pennoyer was to root the concept of personal jurisdiction in the Fourteenth Amendment.

What, did you go to some kind of law school or something?  :)
Title: Re: All Online Law School Students
Post by: Hamilton on May 20, 2011, 08:56:59 AM
Personally, I thought the casebooks were, in large part, a waste of time.  One could get through class and school using Gilberts and canned briefs.
Title: Re: All Online Law School Students
Post by: john4040 on May 20, 2011, 09:09:19 AM
Personally, I thought the casebooks were, in large part, a waste of time.  One could get through class and school using Gilberts and canned briefs.

Although you could probably get through school using Gilberts and canned briefs, that's not the point of law school.  As can be seen in this thread, it is important to understand the theoretical underpinnings of legal concepts.  In practice, you can't rely on Gilberts and canned briefs to come up with arguments to novel issues of the law.  Just like the court in Pennoyer, you'll have to reason through the problem using your own cognitive abilities and creativity.  Seeing courts struggle to form new legal concepts and understanding how the court got there is critical in developing your own reasoning skills.
Title: Re: All Online Law School Students
Post by: passaroa25 on May 20, 2011, 09:52:03 AM
I would never just read Gilberts without downloading the cases and reading them one by one.  The language of law is a skill that has to be maintained everyday (at least for me).  When I was in law school, I ignored all the outlines.  I only read the casebooks and the hornbooks.  I think that if I had read Gilberts as well, I would have focused on the black letter law more than I did.

Pennoyer v Neff is cited in Gilberts.  Printed out, it is 15 pages long.  Gilberts focuses on what the student wants it to focus on.  Just like in any brick and mortar law school, some students will just skip over the citations.  Others, like me,  see the value of reading all the cases.  The downside is that because I'm reading all the cases, I have been in chapter one of Gilberts for 4 months now.  (I work full time.)
Title: Re: All Online Law School Students
Post by: passaroa25 on May 20, 2011, 10:07:02 AM
In Pennoyer, Neff said the judgment wasn't valid because he was never personally served.  The court said the judgment wasn't valid because his land was taken and sold after the default judgment was imposed.  There is more to Pennoyer than just the concept of personal jurisdiction.  There are other cases, like International Shoe and Shaffer v Heitner, that discuss minimum contacts and the foreseeable risk of being "haled into court."  Pennoyer is important.  But, it is just one case.  The other few thousand cases are also part of the "800 thread count sheet", if you will, that put it all together.

By the way, the IRS obviously doesn't agree with the majority in Pennoyer:  if you owe back taxes, that agency will attach any property you acquire to satisfy the old judgment they file on you.
Title: Re: All Online Law School Students
Post by: the white rabbit on May 20, 2011, 09:35:48 PM
There is more to Pennoyer than just the concept of personal jurisdiction. 

But that's all that's still important about it.
Title: Re: All Online Law School Students
Post by: Dezarie123 on May 29, 2011, 09:00:41 AM
i would
Title: Re: All Online Law School Students
Post by: passaroa25 on June 01, 2011, 10:30:12 PM
I sent you a message, dezarie123.  If anyone else is interested in having serious discussions about court opinions, please send me an e-mail:  passaroa25@gmail.com.  We can each brief a case, present it in the e-mail, and discuss what the courts said.
Title: Re: All Online Law School Students
Post by: ms.perfect on July 14, 2011, 02:26:31 PM
 ;D ;D ;D well stated..... I am at Novus...


No body of law is as simple as you think it is, FalconJimmy.   It seems as though you didn't read haven't reviewed Pennoyer v. Neff recently either.  If you did, you would know that one of the  things the court said was that the land Neff wanted back could not be sold to satisfy a previous default judgment.   It also discussed in personam jurisdiction vs. jurisdiction in rem.   I didn't see anything in Pennoyer v. Neff about all the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.  How, can it be the foundation of civil procedure without the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure?  And, if you paid attention to my autobiography, you would remember that I was a 1L at the Mercer School of Law in the 80s.  California Southern was in 2008.  My odd path is because I'm depending on my own lack of money. 

And, before you write Mid-Atlantic off, I challenge you to read all the cases cited  in just chapter one of the Gilberts' Outline, alone, (we read all the cases in each volume) and tell me you still remember what the court said in Pennoyer before you express such dismay at my having to review it.  You obviously have not attended any online law school.  Otherwise, you wouldn't make such presumptive statements.  Any school, online or otherwise, it what the student makes of it.  The student does the reading and the learning by his or her efforts alone.  Online and correspondence law schools are not a waste of time.  The concept has been  proven worthy in Great Britain for the last hundred years.

And, you John, should pay more attention to detail as well.  If you read what I said, I indicated that I would have to read Pennoyer again.  And, did you also know that being deceptive is not encouraged in the field of law?  You acted as though you were interested in a sincere discussion and later, admitted to wanting to teach me a thing or two about "thinking like a lawyer."   I think that one of the reasons why attorneys have such a bad reputation is because some of them really think like you do: saying one thing and thinking something entirely different.

By the way, dudes, I am not a dude.  Don't make assumptions.
Title: Re: All Online Law School Students
Post by: passaroa25 on July 14, 2011, 09:39:29 PM
Thank you, Ms. Perfect.
Title: Re: All Online Law School Students
Post by: john4040 on July 18, 2011, 01:49:27 PM
This was one of the best threads to have graced this website.  I should print it out and hang it on my wall.

P.S.  - Maybe we should discuss some bar exam questions when the time comes, Passaroa?
Title: Re: All Online Law School Students
Post by: FalconJimmy on July 18, 2011, 02:56:29 PM
This was one of the best threads to have graced this website.

Only because of the comedy value.
Title: Re: All Online Law School Students
Post by: passaroa25 on July 19, 2011, 03:22:59 AM
I wouldn't mind starting a discussion on the California bar exam questions right now.  Practice makes perfect.  I sent my e-mail address to you.