Law School Discussion

Law Students => Current Law Students => Topic started by: derrick.hibbard on November 06, 2010, 05:56:21 PM

Title: Suing your law school?
Post by: derrick.hibbard on November 06, 2010, 05:56:21 PM
What do you think about all these people suing their law school because they can’t get a job?  I read an article recently (I put a short section of it below), and I’m kind of disturbed for a number of reasons—first there does seem to be a real problem of too many lawyers and not enough jobs, but also because law graduates seem to be rolling over and accepting that fact without creating opportunities.  (for example, some of my friends started up their own firm doing real estate title searches and are doing well (they won’t be uber-wealthy anytime soon, but they’ve got jobs—another friend of mine found an untapped niche in Florida’s insurance defense field and is also doing well.)  My point is this—there is a problem (I can see that, just like the rest of you), but is it really the fault of the law school?  After all, we did sign up for it—and we signed our names to those promissory notes.  Tell me what you think. 

One popular medium is the "scam blog," where indebted, unemployed attorneys accuse law schools of being little better than tuition-sucking diploma mills. (Sample blog title: Shilling Me Softly.) The author of one popular, if histrionic, such blog describes his law school as a Ponzi scheme.
Others have taken, perhaps inevitably, to the courts. Kenneth Desornes, for instance, named his law school in his bankruptcy filing. He asks the school to "[a]dmit that your business knew or should have known that Plaintiff would be in no position to repay those loans."  http://www.slate.com/id/2272621
Title: Re: Suing your law school?
Post by: bigs5068 on November 06, 2010, 06:10:39 PM
You didn't read the bulletin that law school is the only type of education where you are supposed to have a 100k year a job handed to you for finishing in the middle of your class at the 83rd best law school. If you go to law school you are not supposed to have to concern yourself with looking for a job.  A school owes it to you to have people knocking down doors to hire freshly minted J.D.'s. We all know that in every other type of education that is what happens. When you get your political science bachelor's degree from X- State any reasonable person should should expect at least 15 employers with 100k a year contracts in hand waiting to receive them at graduation.

Now these poor unfortunate recent graduates have had to deal with looking for a job. The absolute horror and how unfair. These poor law school graduates actually have to apply for jobs and even show up for interviews. At times they might even need to apply to more than one job and could even get rejected if they get a job interview. We all know if something is challenging and things are not going your way it cannot possibly be your fault. Rule number one in life is take no accountability for your actions and blame everybody else, but yourself when things don't go your way.

It baffles that law students think this type of thing does not happen in any other profession. Not to mention if you waste all your time writing letters to deans and engaging in a full-on lawsuit you are probably taking a bit of time away from your job search. Nobody is going to hand you anything in life nut up and deal with it. Life is unfair and that applies to EVERYTHING. Nobody had a gun to your head to go to law school and I know that no law school would say we guarantee you will pass the bar and have a job at graduation. Education is risk and if you are not smart enough to figure that out then no wonder you do not have a job.
Title: Re: Suing your law school?
Post by: aglittman on November 07, 2010, 04:20:10 PM
I must disagree with bigs5068.  The real problem is not unrealistic expectations of law students (or a sense of entitlement), but rather the lack of accurate information put out by law schools regarding employment numbers.  There are tons of 0L's flocking to law schools because of the inflated job numbers put out by law schools, and for there to be any market equilibrium, this information must be more accurate.  I would be interested in hearing an intelligent argument that law schools are not scamming people out of money.   
Title: Re: Suing your law school?
Post by: bigs5068 on November 07, 2010, 04:28:17 PM
Lawschool transparency gives accurate numbers and it is a good site I recommend any 0L check it out. It takes account of all the unaccounted JD's and it gives a more realistic picture.  This and general common sense should be sufficient to realize that schools manipulate their stats. They are a business so they are going to put their numbers in light most favorable to them. Salary exaggeration does not only apply to law schools it applies to every educational institution   I cited in another thread a bunch of other articles where MBA students, Med Students, etc were having trouble as well. Here it is two seconds worth of google searching brought this up.

http://www.forbes.com/2006/08/01/leadership-mba-salary-cx_tw_0801mbacomp.html Here is MBA stats and according to Forbes the "Average" MBA student is making around 100k. I find it hard to believe and there is no regulating body even keeping track of MBA grads. The "average" salary at my tier 4 is 80k, but that is pretty easy to do when you do not report half the people. I am sure MBA schools report the same bloated stats.

http://www.grin.com/e-book/148269/unemployed-mba-graduate-diary. An unempoyed MBA, with no job, and a lot of debt. Sound like a theme we have heard somewhere before?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30622026/ A successful MBA grad who expected to work for a top hedge fund after graduation is instead sleeping on a friend's couch.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=622597 I should have thrown away my med school application when I did worst decision ever. The stress and etc is not worth it. I would rather be a "LAWYER".  This was a whole thread, but a lawyer does chime in along the way and his post is worth reading.

School is not a guarantee of anything and if you really believe that you are going to be handed a 100k at graduation from any school then I do not what to say. Some people get 100k a year jobs at graduation, but that is rare and you probably need to be in the top 10% at any school for that to happen. 90% of incoming students are not in the top 10%.  When I got letters from colleges in high school they told me about all their NBA draft picks they had and so one out of 1,000 people made it to the league as a second rounder who played for a year on the Bucks etc. As a 17 year old high school senior I had enough common sense to not think they were promising a spot in the NBA if I played for their school. Sadly some kids did and they still complain about the coaches, or the system, etc, but if I was good enough to hang with them they were not that good in the first place.  However, from my college basketball experience I did end up some getting basketball related jobs and so I did a lot of those guys who really thought they were going to the league.  This kind of thing applies to law schools the brochures say you can get a job in International Corporate law, or become a judge or whatever other B.S. thing a school lists, but come on. The reality is you can get a job as a lawyer, but it is probably not going to be glamorous particularly starting out. Believe it or not any recent graduate in any profession starts out at the bottom. 

There is no doubt that law school exaggerate their stats. No matter what law school you go to or what class rank you have odds are you are not going to become a Big Law Partner, Senator,  or Judge. Use common sense though and tell me a business that does not exaggerate their results. If you want to be a lawyer you should have the critical thinking skills to look a little deeper and not just assume oh this school's brochure who wants my money says that the median salary is 90k. If you want to be a lawyer go to law school, but any salary stats are greatly manipulated and that is true of any type of education. .

Then on top of all that don't tell me these law students were tricked. They are 22 or 23 year old college graduates who made a decision as an adult. No ABA school will accept an applicant without a college degree. If you are a 22-23 year old college graduate you need to look a little deeper before applying to law school. They are adults and grown ups making a huge decision.  Once that decision is made for better or worse do not go crying about it if it does not work out.  If you were naive enough to think a law degree was just going to guarantee you a 100k a year job at graduation then it is your own fault for being that naive. If you are an educated adult then you make some tough decisions sometimes they work out sometimes they do not. In the real world nobody holds your hand and gives you 100% accurate information. Law schools are no differnt they will give you a degree and the right to sit for the bar no school guarantees anything more. If you bust your ass you CAN succeed as a lawyer, but there is no guarantee that you WILL. The thing I love about JDunderground, people suing their school, blah blah is that it could not possibly be their fault. They are victims truly incapable of making a decision on their own. When they bought their gym membership and never worked out and gained 50 lbs it is their gym's fault for not forcing them to work out. If someone says they will tutor you in something and you show up completely unprepared and do not put in any effort whatsoever it is clearly the tutor's fault when things do not go right. Nobody takes any accountability for anything anymore and it is truly astonishing to me. Life is hard and a lot of things are unfair get used to it. If you are going to complain about how hard and unfair things are then you are going to be singing that tuen for a long time, because I do not know anything worth doing that is easy and 100% fair.
Title: Re: Suing your law school?
Post by: Hamilton on November 08, 2010, 07:12:19 AM
I think this is called a strawman.  You (incorrectly IMO) presume that there is this rampant feeling of entitlement out there and that every JD feels that (1) they are entitled to a 6 figure job, and (2) does not feel the need to work to find any type of job.  These are fallicies thrown out any time one states a negative sentiment about the state of jobs or hiring, and frankly, they do not hold water.

If I complain about the cold rainy weather, I am simply stating a fact about the weather - I do not feel entitled to a warm sunny day, and you should not assume I am making no effort to stay warm and dry.

You didn't read the bulletin that law school is the only type of education where you are supposed to have a 100k year a job handed to you for finishing in the middle of your class at the 83rd best law school. If you go to law school you are not supposed to have to concern yourself with looking for a job.  A school owes it to you to have people knocking down doors to hire freshly minted J.D.'s. We all know that in every other type of education that is what happens. When you get your political science bachelor's degree from X- State any reasonable person should should expect at least 15 employers with 100k a year contracts in hand waiting to receive them at graduation.
Title: Re: Suing your law school?
Post by: bigs5068 on November 08, 2010, 08:45:13 AM
My point is that someone complaining about the weather is just as obvious a conclusion as education is a huge expenditure of time & money with no guarantee of success. Another obvious conclusion is that schools a are a business who are going to change around their stats to be somewhat accurate, but give a misleading picture. Lawschooltransparency a business with their own agenda gives better stats in my opinion than  the schools do.  At the end of the day education in any form is a risk and common sense should tell you that. Going to law school is not unlike any other type of education and it is not a golden ticket that will guarantee you success and there is nothing that will as far as I know. I am still asking around for an easy, guaranteed, & legal way to make 100k without putting that much effort in.  Still I have received no answer, but I am listening for one.

 I chose to go to law school as 24 year old college graduate  with two years of work experience and I was a capable adult when I made the decision to go. I looked at all the stats and not just what the school provided me. I talked to students with first hand experience at different schools and they gave varying accounts of doing well, doing ok, or not doing well at all. The main conclusion I gathered from these conversations is that law school is not a guarantee of anything as I expected. Whether you succeed or not is largely dependent on the individual as well. So when I sent my applications in I knew law school was a risk and I chose to attend. As a 24 year old college educated grown man I made a decision and there was no gun to my head.  Based on that decision I am accountable whether it works out or not. My school never said we guarantee if you come here you will make 80k and I find it hard to believe that any school would guarantee any student that. It's your burden to succeed in life no matter what you do, and if you want to say it is someone else's fault your not successful then go write about how unfair it is. It is your life you can do what you want, but nobody is going to reward a crybaby.


The one thing you have to agree with is that the writers of JDunderground, or the guy who initiated a lawsuit, or anyone else who spends time writing about how unfair school is do themselves a disservice, because instead of complaining about how unfair it is they could deal with their situation by looking for a job. .
Title: Re: Suing your law school?
Post by: Denny Shore on November 08, 2010, 01:07:42 PM
I say boo-hoo.  They aren't going to win their lawsuit.  It's bad for them to be a part of it as well as any firm that sees it will likely consider them as either pains in the butt or whiners.  The school owes every student precisely two things: an education and opportunities.
If you graduate from law school, you have both.  Can't find a job?  That stinks.  No doubt about it.  Do what thousands before you have done - get off your butt and start your own practice.  End of story.
The problem isn't with employment statistics, it's with expectations and entitlement.  There are absolutely no guarantees in life.  None.  It used to be that a law school grad had no problem getting a job.  The truth is that the legal market is hurting right now so jobs are scarce.  Potential law students who go into it thinking that the degree will guarantee them any job are delusional.  No education guarantees a job.  Even medical school graduates are finding it more difficult than ever (though most aren't suffering too much as doctors are still in high demand). 
I don't buy the argument that law school graduates aren't filled with entitlement either.  Most law students feel entitled, so why would they change?  The truth is that finding a job is tough and it is likely to remain tough until undergrads come to realize that law school just isn't the guaranteed way into a big paycheck anymore and start finding other opportunities that may come about with a different graduate degree.  Law school has become too accessible and there are too many students and too many graduates every year.  Looking back, if I hadn't had the post-graduation opportunities I have (I'm lucky), I'd have gotten either a masters degree or an MBA.  Given the right set of circumstances, I would have opened my own restaurant.  I look around at some of the people in my class and wonder what they plan on doing, especially those in the bottom 50% who have no connections in the legal field.
That said, instead of wasting an incredible amount of time suing a law school, why not spend time educating the public and/or finding a job/opening your own firm?  I know a half-dozen law offices that would be happy to share space for $1000 a month, including copier, fax machine, internet, and telephone.  Buy a cheap desk, chair, a lamp, a computer, bar association malpractice insurance and a printer and what else do you need?
Potential law students shouldn't listen to their parents, their uncle, or their bro's, they should go out and do some actual research and talk to actual law students in their second and third years before making a commitment to a six-figure education that sucks some of the life out of you and requires far more effort than other, more lucrative career options.  I worked in sales for 3 years and when I left for law school, I knew 20 guys with undergrad degrees pulling in well over $250k a year working 8-5 Monday through Friday. Point being, law school is hard.  Life after law school is hard.  Instead of wasting time suing a school (who, by the way, fulfilled their obligation), go do something.  If you can't lawyer, go find a job where an employer might appreciate a highly educated, logical employee in an executive position.  I know a guy who graduated with his JD and after he couldn't find a job as a lawyer, called a buddy who was an executive in a Fortune 500 company.  He's been an Executive Vice President with the company since shortly after he was interviewed.
Better yet - I know a guy who graduated from a tier 3 school that couldn't get work in a big, medium, or small firm.  So he took a look and realized only a few solo guys were handling landlord tenant law in the city, so he started his own firm.  It's been 10 years now and he makes plenty of money doing it and has brought on two new associates just this year.  At some point, people need to stop thinking like cattle and start thinking like entrepreneurs.
Title: Re: Suing your law school?
Post by: bigs5068 on November 08, 2010, 01:33:44 PM
Thank you!

Simple facts are law school is expensive, law schools play with their stats, but 0% of law schools list 100% employment rate or make any guarantee you will have a lucrative career as a lawyer. The consideration for your time & money is a J.D. and the opporutnity to sit for the bar. Whatever else a school throws in is a bonus, but as long as the school allows you to get a law license they owe you nothing more. If you think paying 100K or more for the chance not the guarantee to become a successful lawyer then do not go to law school.

I would love to see the Judge in this case react to this I think it would go something like this.

Plaintiff Student: Your honor I know when you went to law school everybody become a judge or big law partner immediately after graduation.

Judge: Actually, no that is not what happened. I graduated from law school and worked as a clerk or some entry level associate position. the first few years have my legal career sucked I was paying off loans and not allowed to do much substantive stuff.  It actually took me 25 years to become a judge  and nothing was handed to me.

Plaintiff Student:  No you lie we all know succeeding as a lawyer 20 years ago was easy and firms were handing out contracts to anyone with a J.D.

Judge: Actually, no even in the 60's finding work as a young lawyer was difficult. I was not just put on this bench for having a J.D. I worked my ass of to be in this chair and I suggest you do the same. I did not waste my time blaming other people for my misfortunes and I had to work very hard to get where I am.

Plaintiff Student: No you are just part of the scam system and this is not fair. I deserve 100k a year salary, because the school brochure said you could have a successful career as a lawyer.

Judge: You can I know plenty of Boston University graduates who are doing well. There are plenty of other people in your exact situation who have gone out and found jobs. No school has a 100% unemployment and if you were not dicking around in my courtroom maybe you would have a job maybe not, but life is hard. Get used to it if you want to be a successful lawyer.

Plaintiff Student: Not fair, Not Fair.
Title: Re: Suing your law school?
Post by: jack24 on November 08, 2010, 03:40:03 PM
I think it would be nice (although not practical) if Law Schools were all required to publish the employment breakdowns for each quarter of their class 9 months after graduation.

For example:

At 9 months after graduation
Of the bottom quarter of graduates:  ___% are employed, ____% in legal related jobs (and then a breakdown of type (federal, state, local, private firms etc)
Average salary of those employed in legal jobs:
Median Salary of those employed in legal jobs:
Average salary of those employed in non-legal jobs:
Median salary of those employed in legal jobs.
_____% reporting
Title: Re: Suing your law school?
Post by: bigs5068 on November 08, 2010, 04:49:59 PM
Could not agree more. Law school transparency does a pretty good job of that though. You will see the majority of schools even Harvard around 30% of their students have no reported salaries. My school 20% of people had reported salaries the other 70% there was no salary information available eand 9% were unemployed. They use the 20% of salaried people to make up their median starting salary of 80,000 all schools engage in this including the elites they just use the salary information they have and the other half of the graduates there is no responsibility go find out their salary.  No school should really be allowed to do this, but I am not surprised it happens. No matter what school you apply everything they say is going to make themselves sound better they are trying to sell you something. When you go to a car dealer and he tells how great the car is you should not just rely on his statements. Dealing with a school is no different than a car salesman take everything they tell you with a grain of salt and look deeper.
Title: Re: Suing your law school?
Post by: Denny Shore on November 09, 2010, 10:29:29 AM
It WOULD be wonderful if law schools gave an accurate picture of employment and salary data of graduates, but there are other factors besides the EVIL law schools trying to sell students on attending.  Many students simply don't respond to questionnaires sent to them by their law schools.  Some don't respond because they are embarrassed, some don't respond because they are too busy looking for a job, some don't respond because they are too busy working, and some don't respond because they were so sick of law school that they no longer want to "help" the school gather data.
Added to that, law schools don't want to get the most accurate data because it would reduce their application numbers.  Pre-law students don't really want the numbers because they prefer to live in a dream world filled with cute puppies and fields of daisies.  Ever try to talk to someone who is considering law school about the reality of law school?  If you are too honest, they look like they are either about to cry or they think you are a moron.  The truth hurts and, contrary to popular opinion, most people aren't interested in the truth.  They want the truth that they believe to be true.
For me, I ignored the toilet I attend's staggering reputation for flunking out students.  My school fails out more students every year than every other law school in the state (there are 9 schools, including mine).  Combined.  By a shocking amount.  If I had paid attention to that fact, I never NEVER would have gone to school here.  I would have waited for the next cycle and gone to a school more interested in pumping out quality lawyers than maxing out their admissions and flunking out 10% of every incoming class.  The data was there.  I even looked at it.  But I chose to ignore it because I wanted to go to law school asap and they offered me admission.
I just had a conversation with my cousin.  He graduated with a high GPA from Michigan with a degree in business.  He moved to NYC and started working for someone else and hates it.  His parents, both successful doctors, have been trying to talk him into medical school, but he isn't interested.  So they decided to try and push him into law school.  I spoke to him about how hard it is to get in, how hard it is to do well, and how hard it is to get a job.  His parents (my aunt and uncle) were furious.  I had to explain to them that it's his life and his choice.  I told them that they wouldn't like it if he went for a year and decided he hated it.  I told them that they wouldn't like it if anyone tried to talk them into going to medical school if it meant that 33-50% of medical school graduates wouldn't be able to find jobs or pay their debt.  I tried to explain to them that I wasn't going to lie to my cousin and paint a rosy picture of law school because that wouldn't help him.  I offered to have him accompany me to classes whenever he wanted.  That was 3 months ago.  My phone hasn't rung.  He wants to start a small business and thinks he'd have a better shot of making it than if he suffered through 3 years of school he probably wont like, then look for a job he probably wont like, then hate his career until he either quit to do something else or retired.
He's on the right track.  Too many kids graduate college thinking they are owed a high paying job, only to find out that their degree and complete lack of work experience only qualifies them for jobs that don't pay well and are very demanding.  It's entitlement.  Too many decide to go to law school because they think it entitles them to a six figure job, when it doesn't.  Even those who do get the golden job paying huge money find out it isn't glamorous, they usually don't have time to enjoy the money, and they don't see the inside of a courtroom for 5 or so years (assuming that's what they want).  What the legal community needs is more honest lawyers and law students forcing potential law students to understand just what they are getting into- the hard work, heavy load, being surrounded by a high concentration of the people they hated in college, ridiculous competition amongst peers, the lack of good jobs, and the massive debt.
My point is - the numbers law schools report shouldn't matter all that much.  What potential students should do is talk to 2L's, 3L's, recent graduates, and experienced attorneys.  They should attend a few law school classes as guests.  They should buy a first year Con Law or Property book and read it.  They should take a sample law school exam.  Most of all, they should be required to work in the real world for at least 2 or 3 years to see what that's like as well (I believe too many law students have zero life experience, making them arrogant, ignorant, and too self-assured).
I think they should also understand the trends in legal education, specifically the fact that for at least two decades there have been more students in law school than lawyers practicing.  That's all they really need to know....  The rest, the lawsuits, the blogs, the employment data, etc, is just BS.
Title: Re: Suing your law school?
Post by: aglittman on November 09, 2010, 11:17:31 AM
Bigs5068,

Although you make a couple of good points, your reasoning is very flawed.  Although I don't want to spend a lot of time pulling apart what you wrote (since I have a lot of work to do), let me just make a brief point:

Many law students, such as myself, do not feel entitled to a six figure job after law school.  However, as someone who graduated at the top of my college class, and currently attends a top 50 law school (ranking in the middle of my very competitive class), I do feel entitled to A JOB after law school.  Let me make that very clear:  I would be extremely happy with something like a state government job paying $40-50k a year.  When people in my position have difficulty finding such employment, there really is a problem. 

Granted, no school wants to be the only one publishing accurate employment information, but there must be some regulation of the employment numbers put out by various schools.  As you point out, it is true that certain groups are trying to reveal how biased these published numbers are, but not enough people are aware of these organizations.  There really has to be some regulation coming from the top - such as the ABA. 

Your assertion that people are being lazy complainers falls flat when the reality is that very good students are sending out tons of applications and getting rejected from jobs that pay very low salaries.     
Title: Re: Suing your law school?
Post by: bigs5068 on November 09, 2010, 11:56:15 AM
See that is the problem you rank in the middle of the class at a mediocre school sorry to say top 50 is mediocre. It is still an accomplishment and you are obviously intelligent and I am not trying to take anything away from you. However, I am sorry your numbers are not going to have people going out of there way for you 40,50, 60k a year jobs are not handed out to people on street corners. That is the real problem people think oh I won't get a 100k a year job, but 50k I should get that it is my right. However, those jobs are competitive and being mediocre does not entitle you to those positions. Everyone at any ABA school is competent, and they are in competition for a limited number spots.  I will bring my basketball experience here when I played basketball the first step I had to do was make my high school team.  800 guys showed up and everyone was pretty good. They were only taking 12 guys that it is it for 800 people and I was luckily in the top 12. Had I been in the middle or even the top 10% -so the 80th best I would have been cut.  I would not have even made it to the final day of tryouts had I been in the top 10% of those guys. Even when I made the team I still had to scrap and fight with those 12 really good guys for playing time I was not entitled to anything.  Then two of us were lucky enough to get scholarships for basketball. So 2/800 made it to the next level at my high school.  That is the same kind of scrapping that goes on in the real world sports like the real world is competitive.

Now you were at the top of your college class good for you and it is quite an accomplishment. However, everyone at any ABA school was one of the top students at their undergrad.  You have to be one of the top students at your college to get into an ABA law school. Just like everyone on my college team was a good high school player and went through the B.S. I mentioned above. However, when practice started  nobody cared what you did in high school. I did not tell everybody hey I did this & that in high school it was assumed I was good to be there in the first place. I then had to scrap & fight for playing time again, but I wasn't that good compared to those guys probably the 8th best out of 12. It was not that I did not work hard, or was not a talented player, but the other guys were better worked harder and were more talented. On the same token no employer is going to care that you were in the top of your undergrad class even employers that pay 50K.  They are just going to assume you had good grades in college and that is how you got into law school.  As it stands you are in the middle of your school and all the people in front of you were good college students who are outperforming you in law school. So just like everyone on my college team worked hard, was talented, tall & strong  every student attending an ABA school  is smart, works hard, and is motivated. They will all compete for 50-60k a year jobs again those are not being handed out on the street corner.  Being smart, working hard, etc are the bare minimum things to be a lawyer and to get a job even one paying 40K. The bottom line is nobody is entitled to anything.

So as it stands from the description you gave I assuming you were the 147th best student at the 43rd best school in America. Do that sound like numbers that entitle you to something? Are you entitled to 50k for those numbers? There are about 10,000 people in front of you right now in regards to academics so you better not feel entitled to a damn thing. Because you are not and neither am I. The real world is a highly competitive and you better not feel entitled, because you are not going to make it very far. Companies or the government don't have just hand 40,50,60k a year jobs. I hope it works out for both of us, but never feel entitled because nobody owes you anything in this world. The sooner the writers of JDunderground & other b.s sites realize that hopefully the better their lives will get.
Title: Re: Suing your law school?
Post by: aglittman on November 09, 2010, 12:46:46 PM
Bigs,

This will be the last thing I write on here, so you can (and I'm sure you will take the opportunity) have the last word.  First of all, I attend one of the law schools tied for 34rd in the country.  Ranking in the middle of my class at one of those schools is far from mediocre.  You attend Golden Gate University, which cannot even be considered mediocre - it is a bad school.  The law employment crisis would immediately be over if the ABA shut down sub-par diploma mill schools such as yours, but that of course will never happen. 

You state that all students at ABA approved law schools were at the top of their class in college, but according to the numbers you made available you were not near the top of your college class. 

I know my comments seem extremely mean, but thinking that you (coming from a tier 4 school, with a very average lsat score, and horrible writing skills) have as much of a right as me to a job is itself a form of entitlement.   
Title: Re: Suing your law school?
Post by: bigs5068 on November 09, 2010, 12:49:35 PM
Well I have a job that pays me, do you have one of those? Tell yourself how great you are for being the 147th best student at the 34th best school and honestly good luck to you. I honestly do not see how being the 147th best student at the 34th best school is anything other than mediocre. I am sorry it is not that impressive and  my academic credentials are even less impressive. However, I am well aware that I go to a tier 4 school and that I am not entitled to anything. Knowing this I applied to  about 400 jobs. This resulted in 30 interviews so 370 applications went for nothing. I went to 30 interviews and got 6 job offers. So 394 attempts wasted maybe partially because of my school who knows, but I have a job. I never once said I am a genius in fact I am far from it. I know that I am not and have to work 10x harder than others to succeed. You apparently don't realize that being 147th best student at the 34th best school does not make you a genius either. You are the 147th best student at your own school so 146 students at your own school rank higher than you not to mention there are 33  schools with hundreds of students ahead of you. I am in the top 10% of my school, but I am not naive enough to think this entitles me to anything and even with my high class ranking you might still be in a better position than me.  However, I have enough common sense to know my school/ranking will not entitle me to anything.  Considering you are at the 147th best student at the 34th best school I suggest you develop the same common sense. 

I also imagine you are paying full tuition to go to the 34th best school as ranked by U.S. news system that makes no sense. By the time you graduate it could be the 63rd best school or hopefully the 15th who knows where it will be. I encourage you to look at the formula U.S. News uses to rank schools it will blow you away how inadequate the system is. That may or may not help you because your could rise or fall 40 spots in one year based on their unbelievably inadequate system. You probably should have taken scholarship money instead of going to the 34th school, but that is nothing more than my opinion.

It is really sad that U.S. News a for profit magazine adamantly disapproved by the ABA, AALS, and every other recognized regulatory organization takes advantage of young naive students. Students pay 100k more to go the 34th or 57th best school, because as you stated you are entitled to something if you go the 34th best school. Sadly not that many people care about 34th, 63rd, or even 112th place.  There are ELITE schools i.e Harvard, Yale, Georgetown, NYU, UCLA etc. Then there is 34th or 82nd place nobody cares. I am sure nobody outside of the region the school you attend has heard of it unless it has a big-time sports program.
Title: Re: Suing your law school?
Post by: jack24 on November 10, 2010, 09:39:50 AM
Hey Bigs:
You applied for 400 jobs?   400 summer internships right?  Are you saying you sent out 400 resumes? Because if you actually found 400 job openings you need to write a book on how to do that.
You seem like you'll end up with a job after graduation and be successful, but as a 3L with a paid internship, I have to point out that the market for internships (even paid internships) and the market for full-time jobs are not the same.

Title: Re: Suing your law school?
Post by: bigs5068 on November 10, 2010, 11:18:54 AM
Yea  it was around 400 I think give or take and I applied to some unpaid ones as well.  When you have nothing you can't be picky, but between Craigslist, indeed.com, monster.com,  my schools website, and my school is part of the Bay Area Consortium of law schools and it lets us connect to the other bay area schools career services so I think it ended up being around 400 jobs. I applied to jobs in L.A. as well, because that is where I am from. So between San Francisco and L.A. there were about 400 jobs on those sites.  I am also well aware that a paid internship is nothing like a full-time associate job and I will probably have to work even harder to find a full time position than to find these summer gigs. It is a tough field and who knows if those 6 job offers I got will fall apart by the time summer comes around or I will get fired on the first day.  The bottom line is no matter how hard I work to find a job, how high my class rank is, or if GGU gets invited to join the Ivy League, which is in the works :) I am not entitled to anything and neither is anybody else.
 
 I think you understand there is no entitlement either. The law is not some easy golden ticket and what aglittman does seem to understand is that firms or government offices are not just handing out  50k a year jobs. 50k does not grow on trees and a lot of people like them think I can finish in the middle of the class at the 34th best school. They will tell themselves it is cool I won't be in Biglaw or be a Judge, but one of those firms or government offices will just hand me a 50k a year job. I studied in law school and passed the bar no other entry level lawyer can boast those kind of qualifications ::).  The reality is there were 43,000 law school graduates nationwide last year.  The majority of these people will be looking for jobs and unless you are related to someone in a position to make hiring decisions nobody owes you anything.

That is what is really sad about U.S. News and how it tricks people like aglittman into thinking that being at the 34th best school entitles you to something. I have said it a million times I know so many people that transferred from GGU to USF, Santa Clara, & Hastings and paid 80k more to go to those schools. They generally end up not having a job at graduation and having to work hard to find a job where they ended up with GGU classmates who also had to look hard for a job. So all the transfer students got for going to the 43rd or 74th best school  80k more in debt. None of those schools impresses anybody especially when Stanford & Berkeley are right here. Even this year a few people my section transferred to Hastings and that school was dumb enough to accept me through a transfer application. I did not go and instead used that acceptance  to get 20k more in scholarship at GGU. I am still friends with those people and I saw them at Halloween Party they are all really cool people, but  Guess how many Bay Area firms were begging  Hastings Grads to work for them? The answer basically nobody just like at GGU.  Instead the burden feel on them to find summer jobs and none of them had found anything yet. Hastings is 43rd I think and 43rd place impresses no one, but U.S. News tricked these people into thinking it is worth 80k more to go to the 43rd best school. Or Santa Clara or USF, which are 85 or 98th and are even more expensive than GGU or Hastings. It is just a sad messed up system that leads people to make horrible decisions and gives them a false sense of entitlement. I really wish more people would speak out against it.
Title: Re: Suing your law school?
Post by: BikePilot on November 10, 2010, 05:16:41 PM
Y'all need higher standards.  Taco bell managers make $40k and I know security guards making $80k....   :P  I can understand a low paying legal job after 7 years of busting your butt in higher education if you are convinced you are saving the world.  But in terms of financial ROI, I can't see going through 7yrs of schooling for a $60k job.  I think maybe rather than using "entitlement" which isn't really applicable in this context (yet thank goodness), maybe debating in terms of goals or expectations would be more correct and useful.

Anyhow, all this to say, don't sell yourself short.

The work ethic promoted by big is most commendable.  Apply that same work ethic before and during law school as well for best results.
Title: Re: Suing your law school?
Post by: Denny Shore on November 11, 2010, 08:10:01 AM
I hate to say it, but once we start attacking each others credentials, education, and choice of schools, we turn this from a productive conversation to nothing more than an opportunity to try and make ourselves seem superior to each other.  Isn't that one of the problems woven into the larger issue?
I attend a tier 4 school.  Then again, I have a job waiting for me when I graduate, so it doesn't matter or affect me negatively in any way.  Clients don't care where you went to school.  They only care about how good of a job you can do.  Going to a top 10 school doesn't mean a lawyer will do a better job.

That said, I don't agree that the ABA should shut down schools that don't rank high in some bogus rating system.  My school is rated very low in USNAWR but it produces more judges in my state than any other law school.  Period.  Does it affect biglaw opportunity?  Sure it does.  But students who attend here shouldn't be expecting the same opportunities for jobs as students at HLS.  For some students, lower tier schools provide them with an opportunity to fulfill a dream.  The problem comes when students erroneously believe that their JD is a golden ticket.  It isn't, even at HLS (though they tend to get better shots at jobs).  A JD is a starting point that opens a graduate to opportunities to do something hey love.  That's all.  There are no guarantees in life.  The issue isn't which school is better or who got better grades in college.  The issue is that some whiny law grads think they have a right to a six figure salary by virtue of their education.

As for BikePilot's comment, in a way he is correct.  There are way easier roads to jobs that pay the same or better than the ones law grads get.  That is the piece of the puzzle the dorks who filed suit (as well as the dorks who female dog and moan on websites) seem to have missed.  Being a reasonable, rational human being should include accurately assessing the value of the education you plan on paying for.  ROI.  40 years ago, the ROI was awesome.  My father in law worked as a teacher while attending Kent at night.  He paid his own way and never needed a loan.  The cost of the education has risen exponentially, partly due to inflation and partly due to there being too many students attending law school.

It all boils down to one thing - entrepreneurship.  If you can't find a high paying job, take a low paying job and get experience.  Then go open your own firm.  See all those huge law firms?  Everyone of them was started by a few guys and gals who got sick of working for some other schmuck and made their own firm.  You can choose to be a zombie (no offense) and work for someone else for a paycheck or you can go create your own firm and never work for anyone else again.  Maybe in 20 years, you'll end up with a practice that employs hundreds of attorneys.  Maybe your firm will stay small.  Either way, you'll be better off and make great money.  Killing yourself to work for biglaw can be great.  But if the world is telling you that isn't going to happen, don't file a suit against the law school who fulfilled their end of the bargain.  Go be a lawyer.  Go be an entrepreneur.  Your education puts you in a great position to do just that.  I don't know when or why hopeful members of our profession don't understand that.  I wish more would think like a capitalist and realize that true freedom doesn't come from making boat loads of money working for a huge firm that might fire you because you didn't log enough billable hours.  True freedom comes from being the guy whose name is on the door.
Title: Re: Suing your law school?
Post by: oceansmarine on November 17, 2010, 03:33:15 PM
In working directly with the DOJ and US Attorney General on resolving the Grutter Decision, it appears that their is in-fighting between the ABA and the Department of Education and DOJ.  Keep in mind that Sallie Mae (The student loan program) is now bankrupt with 120 billion dollars in uncollectable loans (as they stated/gone forever).  Aunt Sallie and Uncle Sam are angry at the ABA and law schools for challenging the issues of 'Supply and Demand'   Sallie Mae can only admin the existing loans as of today.

As for the Law Suit.  The individual can prove corruption/negilence as discussed which has impacted their career and finances.  The case no# is DJ 169-73-0.   The law schools have been over allocating admissions into law school based on their seat allocations as established by the ABA and with Sallie Mae bankrupt, the individual should be able to connect the dots in respect to supply and demand. 

The missing step with admissions has been acknowledged by the US Attorney Generals' Office as stated. 
It will be interesting as to how the suit proceeds !!       

Should anyone need assistance, just write.             
Title: Re: Suing your law school?
Post by: bigs5068 on November 17, 2010, 04:33:35 PM
If they win based on charging to much money I am behind it. I still do not see how any school justifies continually raising their tuition rates each year. In the  Bay Area I can see no justification for any school to be charging 30K or more for tuition. If anything it seems more like a Sherman Act violation, because if you want to be a lawyer you have to go through an ABA school. There are only 200 or so of them and they are all outrageously priced. As far as I know they do not need to justify why they are raising tuition or anything and they can just increase tuition by 2,000 any given year. Maybe student's should make a union or something that would be cool. As it stands there is no regulation on how much they are charging and that is the only real problem I see with law schools.

The quality of the education is not a problem and I don't even think finding jobs is that much of an issue. However, charging 100k and still being required to pay for textbooks and all kinds of other things seems outrageous to me.
Title: Re: Suing your law school?
Post by: oleg1244 on November 18, 2010, 02:31:17 PM
I agree with everything Bigs has said. I have actually decided to put off law school for a little while even though I already took the lsat because I received a job offer for a Big4 accounting firm. I am hoping I made the right choice.