Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Choosing the Right Law School => Topic started by: sashlxi on September 27, 2010, 10:00:43 AM

Title: Before you go to law school...
Post by: sashlxi on September 27, 2010, 10:00:43 AM
BEFORE you decide to go to a law school, consider reading the following blogs

Third Tier Toliet

The Jobless Juris Doctor

Shilling Me Softly

Sh*t Law Jobs

Tales of a Fourth Tier Nothing

CHECK YOU THINKING LIKE A LAWYER

But I Did Everything Right!

Subprime JD

The Law School Tuition Bubble

Scammed Hard!

Education Matters

First Tier Toilet

Temporary Attorney: The Sweatshop Edition

Sallie Mae's female dog

Outside Lies Magic

EXPOSING THE LAW SCHOOL SCAM

Highest Education

Fluster Cucked -- America's Race to the Bottom

Rose Colored Glasses

Law School Must Be Debunked

Esq. Never

The Angry Future Expat

Life's Mockery Law Blog

Legal Nihilist

No more room at the bench - latimes.com
Title: Re: Before you go to law school...
Post by: bigs5068 on September 27, 2010, 01:08:35 PM
Really this again? Wow! It is amazing that people struggling and claiming to work so hard at finding work have so much time to write blogs about how unfair everything is. To any 0L law school does not guarantee you anything, but as far as I know no form of education guarantees you anything. Law school is a lot of work and it is ridiculously expensive so if you can get a scholarship at a lower ranked school take it, unless of course it is Harvard or something. However, the 85th best school is not going to open many more doors than the 112th so get out as cheaply as you can. Also most importantly be sure you want to be a lawyer before you go to law school. If you are the type of person that thinks getting a J.D. will open the road to easy street you have another thing coming. You need to be willing to work and figure sh** out on your own. If you not capable of that then law school might not be for you. However, if you put the work in and try your ass off you CAN succeed. That does mean you WILL succeed though, life is tough and so is the legal profession. You might do everything right and it might not work out. However, I do not know anything that is a guaranteed road to a fulfilling and lucrative career if someone does PLEASE LET ME KNOW.
Title: Re: Before you go to law school...
Post by: sad_wolverine on October 05, 2010, 07:28:36 PM
Have to agree with OP on this one. Sure, people who go to third and fourth tier schools are deluding themselves if they think they will land a BigLaw job. But the sad fact is that even the T14 schools regularly fabricate employment statistics leading people to believe that a JD with "Michigan" on the diploma is your golden ticket.

0Ls, please, I'm begging you, with tears in my eyes, do not believe the lies that these schools feed you. The top schools are just as guilty of this as the lower-ranked schools.
Title: Re: Before you go to law school...
Post by: Morten Lund on October 05, 2010, 10:21:51 PM
While I don't doubt that there is a bit of puffery going on across the board, I have a difficult time imagining why top schools (like Michigan) would go out of their way to make law school attractive to fence-sitters.  The top schools aren't in it for this year's tuition check - they have a much longer time horizon. 

Michigan doesn't want to be a top ten school.  Michigan wants to be a top three school, and then a top one school.  Those rankings are determined retroactively by the actions of graduates - most of the rank drivers relate to reputation, directly or indirectly.  "Fooling" people to attend would be counter-productive to that goal.  Michigan wants its graduates to do well - so well that the school's reputation is improved - and they have no need or desire to fill out their classes with suckers for the tuition money.  Michigan isn't short on quality applicants.  They will not have any trouble filling their classes.  It is no accident that the very top schools do not offer merit scholarships, but lots of need-based aid.  They are investing in their real asset:  their reputation.

No knock intended on lower-ranked schools, but their motivation is different and, I suspect, more short-term oriented than the motivation of the top-ranked schools, and even the almost-top-ranked schools. 

I am bit more of a softie than bigs, and I appreciate the disappointment of not finding the path as easy as you had hoped and expected - I really do.  You are clearly in part a victim of the times, as are many others.  These are tough times to be coming out, no matter the school, and when you entered law school Michigan probably did have almost 100% placement rate of graduates to jobs of their choosing. 

But at the same time, I would like to believe that nobody would believe that there is such a thing as a "golden ticket," let alone that an academic degree would qualify.  As I have posted earlier, even had you landed your dream job out of law school, you would still have no guarantees.  Most BigLaw hires don't last more than a few years before moving on to something else (for instance).  There are no guarantees in life, and a law degree may be the furthest thing from a guarantee.  If you wanted safe employment, you should have gone to medical school, because all paths from law school to "success" go through lots of hard work and peril, with failure lurking at every turn.
Title: Re: Before you go to law school...
Post by: bigs5068 on October 05, 2010, 10:44:51 PM
I really don't think med school is anymore of a guarantee. I was at a friends wedding these weekend and there were a lot of med students and they were saying oh it must be so nice to know you are going to make a ton of money as a lawyer. I thought ok well you don't know what you are talking about. I assumed med students would make a ton of money, but there situation is almost worse. They go in as much debt and get locked into things for 5 years. People think Med or Law school is a golden ticket, but it is simply not. There is NO golden ticket. No school can guarantee anything they just can't.

I think Morten is right in that lower ranked schools have more short term goals and they want to fill seats. They also need to get some quality applicants to and that is why they offer the scholarships. Michigan or Yale does not need to do things like that, because well they are who they are.  I am baffled even at my school that people at GGU think they are going to be entitled to things and that it is the same as Stanford it is not. You can have a good career from any school, but you will need to earn it. You are not earning anything if you are sitting around bit**ing about how unfair it is. If you go to a tier 4 you better be willing to bust your f'ing ass and go to a ton of interviews and be ready for some rejection. There is no red carpet rolled out for and you better realize that. You can do it, but if you sit around and b***h on the internet about how unfair it is that you finished in the top 40% at the 79th best school you can't expect anything.
Title: Re: Before you go to law school...
Post by: Morten Lund on October 05, 2010, 11:04:26 PM
I really don't think med school is anymore of a guarantee. I was at a friends wedding these weekend and there were a lot of med students and they were saying oh it must be so nice to know you are going to make a ton of money as a lawyer. I thought ok well you don't know what you are talking about. I assumed med students would make a ton of money, but there situation is almost worse. They go in as much debt and get locked into things for 5 years. People think Med or Law school is a golden ticket, but it is simply not. There is NO golden ticket. No school can guarantee anything they just can't.

At the risk of hijacking...

It all depends on what you mean by "guarantee," of course.  Medical school is difficult, long, and painful, and the post-graduate training requirements are onerous.  Many fail along the way.

BUT - upon completion of all requirements for the practice of medicine, you will find that there is virtually 100% employment rate for physicians, and (with some exceptions) the income curve is quite different from the lawyer income curve.  No bi-modal distribution there.  Unless you do out of your way to find a low-paying job, you will have a hard time making less than $100k, and probably well beyond that.  You can ambitious and shoot higher, but the "just hanging out" income level for physicians is very respectable.

And, unlike law school, this applies almost universally across school rank and class rank.  Ask your doctor sometime where (s)he went to med school, and about class rank.  You may be surprised (or frightened).

Hence the old joke:  "What do you call the guy who graduates last in his class from HLS?  'Waiter!'  What do you call the guy who graduates last in his class from HMS?  'Doctor'."

All that said, I ultimately agree that there is no golden ticket, and there are no guarantees.  But in terms of income security and job security, a medical license may be the closest thing
Title: Re: Before you go to law school...
Post by: bigs5068 on October 06, 2010, 12:12:31 AM
I don't think that is true I imagine many people find WORK as doctors. However, many J.D. could also find WORK in Timbuktu places instead of bi**h ing and moaning. I am sure many physicians fight for spots in areas they want to work, New York, San Francisco, etc. However, the competition for those jobs is fierce and they get stuck in places like Weed, California. There are attorney jobs in these places as well, but law students don't have the 5 year residency requirement that they HAVE to do. So they will hang out in the area they went to law and if things are not handed to them instead of looking for opportunities in these remote places where they could get experience they decide to create blogs about unfair everything is. I mean I am sure I could find all kinds of people complaining about how unfair Medical School is as well. In fact my friend told me there is a book that follows 7 doctors from Harvard throughout their careers and only one was happy with their choice. I will ask my friend to give me the name of it. It actually does exist he showed it to me.

I think Med Students and doctors are put on these pedestal by each other. Doctors think that lawyers make more money and lawyers think doctors have it easier. Again no guarantee for either one, but the grass seems greener to the other. Doctors are locked into the residency for 5 years as I understand it making 30-40k a year. At least with Law School you CAN make big bucks right out of school. Med school is the same as law school as far as I am concerned and there are risks associated with it. Education is not a GOLDEN TICKET and again no institution and no field of study can guarantee you anything.

Believe it or not sitting around female dog*** and moaning on websites about how you got a raw deal is not helping you. Life is tough and you should get used to it.
Title: Re: Before you go to law school...
Post by: Morten Lund on October 06, 2010, 01:42:13 AM
I don't think that is true I imagine many people find WORK as doctors. However, many J.D. could also find WORK in Timbuktu places instead of bi**h ing and moaning. I am sure many physicians fight for spots in areas they want to work, New York, San Francisco, etc. However, the competition for those jobs is fierce and they get stuck in places like Weed, California.

But here's the difference:  The young MD with a small family practice in Weed, CA, is making $200k a year with excellent job security.  The young JD in a small general practice firm in Weed, CA, is making between $30k and $60k in any given year, with no job security whatsoever.

Hmm...  I'm not helping make the case for law school here, am I.
Title: Re: Before you go to law school...
Post by: MEMEMEME on October 06, 2010, 02:05:04 AM
Stop whining and get on with the tuition repayment. You should never go to school for a career to make big bucks anyway. You should go because you want a decent lifestyle and are relatively interested in the work. You don't have to love it, but if the thought of reading case after case is only justified by the big bucks for you, then forget it. Too many people are going to law school for that reason and that's why it is such a crowded field. If only the people went who were as I described above, we wouldn't have this problem anyway.
Title: Re: Before you go to law school...
Post by: MeganEW on October 06, 2010, 05:36:54 AM
I don't think that is true I imagine many people find WORK as doctors. However, many J.D. could also find WORK in Timbuktu places instead of bi**h ing and moaning. I am sure many physicians fight for spots in areas they want to work, New York, San Francisco, etc. However, the competition for those jobs is fierce and they get stuck in places like Weed, California.

But here's the difference:  The young MD with a small family practice in Weed, CA, is making $200k a year with excellent job security.  The young JD in a small general practice firm in Weed, CA, is making between $30k and $60k in any given year, with no job security whatsoever.

Hmm...  I'm not helping make the case for law school here, am I.
Exactly... One little caveat, this is for US MD students.  The match rate for DO students is a little lower, and the match rate for Caribbean medical schools is even lower.

To continue the hijack....
To even apply to medical school, you have to have certain undergraduate courses.  If you didn't take these as an undergrad, you have to complete them another way, typically by getting a master's.  You also have to take the MCAT, which requires you to study for content.
There are a purposely limited number of slots for MD students in the US.  Only roughly a third of those who apply to US MD programs get in.  Keep in mind, these are people who suffered through organic chemistry, the MCAT, etc.  However, this is smart, because after medical school, the vast majority of students match or are able to scramble into residency spots.
At this point, new doctors are jealous of their BigLaw professional brethren because they (the dr.s) are working 80 hours/week and making between $35k-$60k/year depending on specialty and COL city for the next 3-7 years of residency and fellowship.  Those who have the shorter residencies are going into the lower paid specialties (internal medicine, pediatrics) and will likely make $100k - $200k for most of their career.  Surgical residencies are typically 5 years.  General surgeons typically make around $300k and orthopedic surgeons typically make more than that.  We'll see what happens, though, with the new healthcare bill, and how that affects salaries.
Also, I'm under the impression, though, that scholarships are far more common in law than medicine.  I don't know anyone at my husband's private (~$40k/year) medical school who received more than a couple thousand in aid / year.

In short, doctors do have high salaries at this point in time, but it's not exactly the fast track to easy street.  If you want that, go into investment banking / private equity. ;)  (okay, I wink, but seriously... 6-figure bonuses straight out of undergrad?  crazy!)
Title: Re: Before you go to law school...
Post by: bigs5068 on October 06, 2010, 08:49:24 AM


But here's the difference:  The young MD with a small family practice in Weed, CA, is making $200k a year with excellent job security.  The young JD in a small general practice firm in Weed, CA, is making between $30k and $60k in any given year, with no job security whatsoever.

Hmm...  I'm not helping make the case for law school here, am I.
[/quote]

See the misconception is that it is  200k right out of school. As the poster above me said they need to do residency for 5-7 years in places like Weed, California making 30-40k. If and when they finish the residency the money comes, but I don't even know if that is guaranteed. You might need to still go out and find a job after completing the residency I am not sure . The general practitioner in Weed, California might start out making 30-40k as well, but with 7 years of experience he/she will hopefully learn enough to be efficient and make a better salary. Many med students think law students have it easier and more guarantees. The grass is always greener.

As I have tried to say a million times  education is a LONG-TERM investment and the higher up in education you go the longer it is going to take to get any benefits back. Whether you are in Med School, Law School, Business School, whatever it may be. It takes a LONG TIME to build a career, but lawyers are actually one of the few professions where you CAN go to Biglaw and get paid really well right out of school, but that is really rare. Whether you go to med school or law school it will take a long time to build a career. I am not expecting when I graduate that employers will be sitting in the audience begging me to work at their firms for 200k a year. I am going to be another J.D. and hopefully I will maintain my high class rank. I can speak mandarin, which is pretty helpful and  I am trying to get as much work experience as I can to make my resume look better, but so are 95% of other students. Hopefully I will pass the bar and if I do that then maybe someone will hire me, but there are no guarantees that I will get an ASSOCIATE POSITION after I graduate. Even if all that goes well and I get a job and pass the bar I will need to continue to do well and bring in the billable hours etc. If I do not well then there are plenty of other people that would be willing to take my job. Yes the legal industry shockingly enough is competitive and actually anything in life is. Generally speaking businesses do not like to pay people for doing nothing and writing about how unfair everything is.  These bloggers who write this bs  just kill me.
Title: Re: Before you go to law school...
Post by: Morten Lund on October 06, 2010, 09:31:50 AM

See the misconception is that it is  200k right out of school. As the poster above me said they need to do residency for 5-7 years in places like Weed, California making 30-40k. If and when they finish the residency the money comes, but I don't even know if that is guaranteed. You might need to still go out and find a job after completing the residency I am not sure .

No misconception, but I should have been clearer.  All my hypothetical physicians are fully licensed, residenced, and specialized.  No doubt - at 26 years of age JDs make more than MDs.  I am moving a few more years ahead, since frankly the first few years after law school are basically an overpaid residency anyway.

But after the residency, frankly, the minimum doctor income is pretty close to guaranteed.  This is in no small part to what Megan explained - actually GETTING to that point is harder for the physicians.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to get a law degree from some random law school.  Getting the MD is much harder.  The MCAT requires more preparation, specific undergraduate studies are required, med schools do flunk people out, and there aren't as many med school spots available.  The supply of physicians does not meet the demand, whereas the supply of JDs exceeds the demand.

I wouldn't say the grass is greener - there are many reasons why I am glad I went law instead of medicine - but one of the indisputable benefits of a medical license in the US is near-guaranteed income at a very comfortable level.

(Roughly half my family is medical, and I have seen the process play out countless times over the years.  Doctors are a funny bunch.)
Title: Re: Before you go to law school...
Post by: bigs5068 on October 06, 2010, 09:43:49 AM
I think Med School is harder and that is why if you get through all of that you have a guaranteed job. That is why I advocate for law school being harder than it is. You can put in a decent effort graduate and pass the bar. You are not required to do one practical thing in law school. Certainly it is wise to get work experience while your in school, but it is not required. If law schools made you do a clinic for 5-7 years  that was highly supervised then when you got out I am sure there would be able to find placement somewhere. However, in law school you CAN skate by and take art and the law etc. Knowing the elements of negligence alone is not really going to do anything for you. How do you initiate the suit, take a deposition, do discovery, just everything that is entailed in it. Law school does not r teach you how to REALLY do it. I learned theoretically how to do a lot of it in Civil Procedure, but again the theory and actually doing are two different things. I wouldn't care if my brain surgeon aced every class regarding brain chemistry etc. I would care how many brain surgeries he did. There is no substitute for experience and I am really shocked that the ABA does not require you to complete some type of REAL INTERACTION before graduating. I know law is a broad field, but you could handle several REAL people's matters under the supervision of an attorney. Medicine is a broad filed to and they managed to figure it out.
Title: Re: Before you go to law school...
Post by: Morten Lund on October 06, 2010, 01:22:14 PM
Medicine is a broad filed to and they managed to figure it out.

Well, part of the way medicine provides better training is by requiring specific undergraduate studies.  Med school isn't a two-year program, but a six-year program.  You can't even start the "official" medical school unless you spent your college years studying relevant subject matters.

I am not sure exactly what the law school analog would be, but my point here is that nobody enters med school without a solid foundation in biology and chemistry.  Most 1Ls have no relevant knowledge at all when they show up.

So maybe we should make law school a six-year graduate program instead of three, or have specific undergraduate admission requirements - with an LSAT that tested substantive knowledge rather than general smarts.
Title: Re: Before you go to law school...
Post by: bigs5068 on October 06, 2010, 03:04:48 PM
I agree I mean I got a paralegal certificate from my school. I had an extra year of a basketball scholarship so I had to take classes, but that really taught me a lot. We had a final exam that we had to in IRAC and we literally did the same exact things I learned in Legal Writing and Research in law school. I wouldn't mind having a paralegal certificate being a prerequisite and maybe regulate those programs more. Those are not nearly as expensive and if someone says man this sucks they can leave. Instead of facing 30,000 in debt at the end of the first year.

That is probably the main problem is that so many students show up not knowing what to expect at all. I mean you can pull a 4.0 in Religious Studies I took several of those classes in college to produce a (REAL SOLID MINOR) and pulled an A in every class and I don't know anyone who did not get an A in those classes. Anyways, hypothetical student with a religious studies major thinks they are really smart they have a 4.0 in undergrad. They say I will take the LSAT and they pull a 163 on the LSAT now they are TRUE GENIUSES DESTINED TO BE SUPREME COURT JUSTICES MAYBE PRESIDENT. This hypothetical student may have never worked a day in their life or at least not in the legal field. So they have a 4.0 and 163 LSAT score gold and get some real demanding religious studies professor to write about how great they are and then they piece together a coherent 2-3 page personal statement. This candidate with NO EXPOSURE to the legal field is pure gold to a lot of admissions committees. The student might be terrible though who knows or maybe they will just hate the law. You should have a lot more exposure to something before you are allowed to commit 100,000 to a profession that is supposed to be highly regulated.

I mean I got the paralegal certificate and worked in law offices for two years. It was not a huge commitment, but I enjoyed it enough to pursue the law. Many people I worked with were fresh graduates to who thought about law school, but said god this sucks. It is a lot better to learn that lesson long before you commit 3 years of your life and 100,000.
Title: Re: Before you go to law school...
Post by: MeganEW on October 06, 2010, 05:02:45 PM
Medicine is a broad filed to and they managed to figure it out.

Well, part of the way medicine provides better training is by requiring specific undergraduate studies.  Med school isn't a two-year program, but a six-year program.  You can't even start the "official" medical school unless you spent your college years studying relevant subject matters.

I am not sure exactly what the law school analog would be, but my point here is that nobody enters med school without a solid foundation in biology and chemistry.  Most 1Ls have no relevant knowledge at all when they show up.

So maybe we should make law school a six-year graduate program instead of three, or have specific undergraduate admission requirements - with an LSAT that tested substantive knowledge rather than general smarts.
I don't know, though. 
I met my husband right after undergrad.  I had gone to a top NE private university with a heavy focus on liberal arts, and he had gone to a tiny elite engineering school in the midwest.  He would explain scientific topics to me, and I would feel like I had learned nothing in the past four years.  After a couple months in the workplace, though, I discovered that my liberal arts background taught me how to think, to problem solve, to be flexible, to communicate effectively.  Because of this, I've found success in every job.  You learn the skills you need on the job.  My current employer (a Fortune 500 retailer) stresses that 70% of your development is gained from experience.  The education is important to give you that foundation and context.
The foundation for medicine is and should be different than the foundation for law, and not just in content.  While doctors and lawyers are both professionals, medicine is more of trade while law is an art.  Doctors need to learn all the problems and solutions.  Lawyers need to learn how to create solutions. 
So, I don't think pre-reqs prior to law school is necessarily ideal.  I do think there should be fewer spots/schools for JD candidates each year, though, to have greater standardization in the field, and I also see the benefit of a clinical year or two in law school.

As a side note, there is talk in the world of BigLaw about setting up a match process much like medicine has.  I'm not sure how far the firms have gotten in this type of talk or even how many are considering it, though.
Title: Re: Before you go to law school...
Post by: marcus-aurelius on October 06, 2010, 05:28:44 PM
Med schools are also willing to experiment with their admissions to determined what works and evolve.  I read an interesting NY Times article recently about med school without a science background.

(http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/nyregion/30medschools.html?pagewanted=all)

It seems as if the law evolves slowly, so do the schools.  Med schools must adapt quickly to the times.  I find the comparision difficult to make.
Title: Re: Before you go to law school...
Post by: Hamilton on October 06, 2010, 06:18:51 PM
I think Med School is harder and that is why if you get through all of that you have a guaranteed job. That is why I advocate for law school being harder than it is.

BINGO!  Med schools are much more restrictive than law schools: harder to get into and harder to complete.  There are no US "diploma mills" when it comes to med school - the same cannot be said for law schools.
Title: Re: Before you go to law school...
Post by: MeganEW on October 06, 2010, 06:51:03 PM
Med schools are also willing to experiment with their admissions to determined what works and evolve.  I read an interesting NY Times article recently about med school without a science background.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/nyregion/30medschools.html?pagewanted=all (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/nyregion/30medschools.html?pagewanted=all)

It seems as if the law evolves slowly, so do the schools.  Med schools must adapt quickly to the times.  I find the comparision difficult to make.
One of my sorority sisters is a graduate of that program!  She's doing well, but many I've spoken with regarding this are skeptical.  I'm curious to see what longer-term findings are.  Of course, this program is likely different than what it would be if rolled to all medical schools because it has to be incredibly selective; a study of these top liberal arts students who have become doctors might not indicate the success of the larger body of liberal arts students who would be admitted if all medical schools implemented this type of admission.
Title: Re: Before you go to law school...
Post by: Thane Messinger on October 07, 2010, 04:37:58 AM
But at the same time, I would like to believe that nobody would believe that there is such a thing as a "golden ticket," let alone that an academic degree would qualify.  As I have posted earlier, even had you landed your dream job out of law school, you would still have no guarantees.  Most BigLaw hires don't last more than a few years before moving on to something else (for instance).    There are no guarantees in life, and a law degree may be the furthest thing from a guarantee.  If you wanted safe employment, you should have gone to medical school, because all paths from law school to "success" go through lots of hard work and peril, with failure lurking at every turn.


A number of interesting points here, but there seems a deeper point that is easily lost:  the factors surrounding rank, prestige, etc. are connected to but rather different from the factors surrounding personal success, whether in law school or thereafter.  These in turn are different from the "cultural" factors, including the good luck of graduating into a robust market . . . or the bad luck of graduating now.  (And, for the record, I graduated in 1991, into the maws of a legal recession every bit as scary as today's.)

It's easy to discount the relevance of objective factors such as prestige--objective under the standards of law regardless of subjective bases--primarily because, well, we don't like them.  (Note the similarity to how one can mess up in a law exam.)  Luck is something we either have or not, although a fair portion of luck gravitates to a select few, based often on thoughtfulness as much as good breeding.  Those are very different factors from the last--quality--which is something we actually do control.  Thus, as painful as it is, and as quasi-random as law grades seem to be, how one approaches law school is a choice, and it's one many make badly, or at least haphazardly.  The same is true of the practice of law.  In a market such as this, the reasons will hardly matter.

For all, take a moment to re-read Morten's highlighted sentence:  Even after all the work of stellar and perhaps pampered primary, secondary, and undergraduate years; after the sky-high LSAT; after the tippy-top acceptances; after a gruelling first year and wildly great grades; after two more years of mind-numbing schooling; and after an even more mind-numbing application to the bar and the bar exam itself . . . the odds are still against success.  Or at least conventional success. 

I know we sound like old farts (or at least I do), but as to the issue of your own quality as a law student--and future colleague--please read Morten's first book.  It might be an eye opener as to the very real world you're about to enter.  (I would mention my own first book--The Young Lawyer's Jungle Book: A Survival Guide, now with fewer carbs!!--but that would be far too shameless. = :  )
Title: Re: Before you go to law school...
Post by: MEMEMEME on October 07, 2010, 03:49:41 PM
Perhaps it would be too much of a conspiracy theory here, but I would argue that the old farts in general are attempting to make it more and more difficult for people to succeed in law because they want a monopoly on their markets. For example, is it anyone's business, particularly the bar association's or a law school's business if I have ever been "the subject of an investigation by a government or private agency," let alone been charged with a crime for which I haven't been convicted? No, it is not. It is no one's business and if anyone had such huge character flaws for character and fitness, it would be evident in their academics, actual conviction record, etc. Otherwise all you're doing is facing off people who have a record of close calls against people who have not been caught and besides, that's what appeals courts and malpractice insurance are for anyway. But these restrictions exist in some states and are even more ruthless in others and these rules and laws and restrictions are created by old fart lawyers. Not accusing either Thane or Morten of being the above, but it is a point to consider and I advise anyone who really wants to be a lawyer to go for it and remember income-based repayment plans for student loans and not consolidate or take out private loans.
Title: Re: Before you go to law school...
Post by: Thane Messinger on October 09, 2010, 02:02:29 AM
Perhaps it would be too much of a conspiracy theory here, but I would argue that the old farts in general are attempting to make it more and more difficult for people to succeed in law because they want a monopoly on their markets. For example, is it anyone's business, particularly the bar association's or a law school's business if I have ever been "the subject of an investigation by a government or private agency," let alone been charged with a crime for which I haven't been convicted? No, it is not. It is no one's business and if anyone had such huge character flaws for character and fitness, it would be evident in their academics, actual conviction record, etc. Otherwise all you're doing is facing off people who have a record of close calls against people who have not been caught and besides, that's what appeals courts and malpractice insurance are for anyway. But these restrictions exist in some states and are even more ruthless in others and these rules and laws and restrictions are created by old fart lawyers. Not accusing either Thane or Morten of being the above, but it is a point to consider and I advise anyone who really wants to be a lawyer to go for it and remember income-based repayment plans for student loans and not consolidate or take out private loans.


Aloha, Memememe & All -

Speaking for old farts (and future old farts) everywhere, I don't think competition is the issue.  To be blunt, in general the powers that be worry only about a small percentage of the bar.  In general.  (I go over this in GGG with regard to legal employment.) 

Grossly unfair.  Unwise.  All true.  But it's unlikely they notice enough to worry.  In a sense, that's a greater condemnation of old farts, yes?

As to committees on fitness to practice law, much could be said, and much has been said.  Let me just state that, from one old fart at least, I cannot argue.  (And I like arguing.  = :  )

Thane.
Title: Re: Before you go to law school...
Post by: IPFreely on October 11, 2010, 06:37:19 PM
I really don't think med school is anymore of a guarantee. I was at a friends wedding these weekend and there were a lot of med students and they were saying oh it must be so nice to know you are going to make a ton of money as a lawyer. I thought ok well you don't know what you are talking about. I assumed med students would make a ton of money, but there situation is almost worse.
It depends on which specialty they go into.  A GP doesn't make shitloads.  An anaesthesiologist makes shitloads no matter what.  I forget what the other three golden specialties are, but any med student should be able to tell you.

Of course Obamacare may change all that.  In other countries, doctors make squat, which explains why their medical care is so crappy.
Title: Re: Before you go to law school...
Post by: searchusa on October 19, 2010, 03:13:34 PM
Thanks for sharing! :)
Title: Re: Before you go to law school...
Post by: MeganEW on October 20, 2010, 05:35:59 PM
I really don't think med school is anymore of a guarantee. I was at a friends wedding these weekend and there were a lot of med students and they were saying oh it must be so nice to know you are going to make a ton of money as a lawyer. I thought ok well you don't know what you are talking about. I assumed med students would make a ton of money, but there situation is almost worse.
It depends on which specialty they go into.  A GP doesn't make shitloads.  An anaesthesiologist makes shitloads no matter what.  I forget what the other three golden specialties are, but any med student should be able to tell you.

Of course Obamacare may change all that.  In other countries, doctors make squat, which explains why their medical care is so crappy.
Nearly all doctors will still make $100k+ annually after residency; primary care, the lowest paid, typically start at $120k.  They may feel like that's not much as most have lots of student loan debt (medical schools give very little aid outside of loans) but mostly I think they don't realize how little most lawyers make.  Or, maybe they're just concerned about their future because of the new healthcare reforms.
Title: Re: Before you go to law school...
Post by: bigs5068 on October 21, 2010, 12:17:43 PM

[/quote]

For all, take a moment to re-read Morten's highlighted sentence:  Even after all the work of stellar and perhaps pampered primary, secondary, and undergraduate years; after the sky-high LSAT; after the tippy-top acceptances; after a gruelling first year and wildly great grades; after two more years of mind-numbing schooling; and after an even more mind-numbing application to the bar and the bar exam itself . . . the odds are still against success.  Or at least conventional success. 

[/quote]

In regards to all doctors making 120K I still do not know if that is true or not. When I was in undergrad I assumed all lawyers made 100k as well, but that is not the case I know next to nothing about the Medical Profession so I will not comment any further than that. Then the main reason for this post is to respond to Thane's Quote above. If you go to a great school, do great on the LSAT, get good grades, the odds of conventional success are against you. I think that is true and I still think the same logic applies to each and every profession. I still have never met a person who said I am underworked, overpaid, and getting my job was easy. That is my biggest beef with all the naysayers for law school, because it is pretty similar to every other profession out there. However, I have noticed that even at my tier 4 school there are quite a few spoiled and naive rich kids that have never had to deal with anything in their life. I am positive that once school is not around they will bi**h and moan about how hard and unfair everything is, but the real world is hard and unfair. I learned that when I was 16, but many law students don't get that lesson until way later in life. Instead of busting their ass to make up for the fact that life is hard and unfair they make blogs saying how hard and unfair it is. Newsflash to the writers of JDunderground and other websites LIFE IS NOT FAIR! You need to deal with it is pretty easy to complain about things, but a lot harder to deal with them. The people that get paid 100K in every profession deal with problems that are difficult and hard. Sometimes the things they need to deal with are even unfair.

Bottom line is law school is kind of hard and very expensive. It is not a golden ticket to anything and I pleaded on another thread for someone to tell me about a profession that will guarantee me 100K for a few hours of work a week. Remember I also want to really enjoy the work and not dislike anything about it. I want to be one of the people that I have never met that says man I am so under worked and overpaid. If someone comes up with an idea that works I will give them 50% of my exorbitant salary that I do not work very hard to earn.  It also has to be really easy to get into this profession, because I do not doubt there are some people who are paid very well and do little  -Congress- :), but that jobs are pretty competitive to get.