Law School Discussion

Law Students => Incoming 1Ls => Topic started by: sonofapickle on June 06, 2010, 10:46:56 AM

Title: Going to the Military
Post by: sonofapickle on June 06, 2010, 10:46:56 AM
After talks with the family, mentors, and friends, I finally made my decision on a service in the Marines post grad, which is next year. Whether or not it is a good decision is subjective in nature. I have tried being against the military for a long time but have always wanted to be apart of the military. I still plan on going to law school but my question here pertains to the military and law. What bearing would my LSAT score (being taken this fall) have on joining the Marines? Will I still have to take the ASVAB to join, although I completed Calculus, advanced courses in college English, and (future tense) above 150 on the LSAT? And, what position would I rank in, also what MOS would I be able to do? I would like to hear from actual Marines who have gone through training and the like... What were your experiences?
Title: Re: Going to the Military
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 06, 2010, 12:32:12 PM
You have to be f'in kidding me. I thought you said the military was all brainwashed idiots? Plus why the Marines if you want to be intellectual? They're tough but the AirForce and Navy are where the eggheads usually endup.

Yes, you have to take the asvab and if you want to be an officer even more tests too.

What MOS are you considering, what rank?
Title: Re: Going to the Military
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 06, 2010, 12:37:38 PM
If you are being serious, then I am willing to help as a veteran I can tell you about two little known groups that would love to have the egghead that you think you are.(and mabey you really are I dont know)

1) http://www.usphs.gov    loves to have people with pre-med backgrounds that you claim to have and will pay to put you into a PHD program while as officer. Plus only a 2 week officer training instead of usual buttkicking basic training.

2) http://www.noaacorps.noaa.gov   a little bit more intense but still both are unlikely to ever see combat. You'd probally like either.

Title: Re: Going to the Military
Post by: sonofapickle on June 06, 2010, 01:16:24 PM
I am pretty serious about joining the Marines. For the most part, I am interested in pursuing a legal career primarily due to what I've been considered like, "you're smart, the military is not for you." I do not really care about being smart or following intellectual pursuits as I have more of an interest in the military, i.e. ground combat and strategics more-so than law or pre-med. In other words, the military is the only thing I have had a lot of interest for.

As for my interest, or MOS, I am more interested in reconnaissance or leading an infantry of troops. I would like to enter a bootcamp that would help cultivate my skills.

Math is not my strongest suit, I worked extra hard to get into Calculus and pass it. Reading, comprehension, logic, and writing are my strongest suits. When taking various classes in management to fulfill the core classes for business, I was more inclined towards management and strategical management.

Title: Re: Going to the Military
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 06, 2010, 06:32:43 PM
do you want to go enlisted or officer?

I am pretty serious about joining the Marines. For the most part, I am interested in pursuing a legal career primarily due to what I've been considered like, "you're smart, the military is not for you." I do not really care about being smart or following intellectual pursuits as I have more of an interest in the military, i.e. ground combat and strategics more-so than law or pre-med. In other words, the military is the only thing I have had a lot of interest for.

As for my interest, or MOS, I am more interested in reconnaissance or leading an infantry of troops. I would like to enter a bootcamp that would help cultivate my skills.

Math is not my strongest suit, I worked extra hard to get into Calculus and pass it. Reading, comprehension, logic, and writing are my strongest suits. When taking various classes in management to fulfill the core classes for business, I was more inclined towards management and strategical management.
Title: Re: Going to the Military
Post by: sonofapickle on June 07, 2010, 09:29:59 AM
officer seems to be the best route for me rather than enlisted. Can all college grads start as an officer?
Title: Re: Going to the Military
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 07, 2010, 02:49:20 PM
It depends some MOS require specific degrees, others don't care as much.
Have you picked which specific jobs you'd prefer. If you want combat you probally want infantry(I believe the marines call it "forced recon")
Other MOS examples include medical officer, mechanic, etc.
http://www.ocs.usmc.mil/

Are you still thinking Marines? Did you look at the links for NOAA and PHCC?

officer seems to be the best route for me rather than enlisted. Can all college grads start as an officer?
Title: Re: Going to the Military
Post by: sonofapickle on June 07, 2010, 04:06:05 PM
I am not too interested in the Public Health Service, but the second link, NOAA seems to be something I might have an interest for due to it implementing most of my interests into one. I think because I will finish in the fall of this year I could possibly sign up for it, but I want to weigh the options first. I wouldn't want to be behind a desk but out in the field first. To answer your question though, I believe infantry would be a good start. Does the NOAA provide any sort of field component to the marines portion?
Title: Re: Going to the Military
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 07, 2010, 09:30:51 PM
They dont see combat(unless attacked) but they do go out at sea to do research and visit far off parts of the globe. Depending on your job you could be doing a variety of work above or below the ocean and in the air.

I am not too interested in the Public Health Service, but the second link, NOAA seems to be something I might have an interest for due to it implementing most of my interests into one. I think because I will finish in the fall of this year I could possibly sign up for it, but I want to weigh the options first. I wouldn't want to be behind a desk but out in the field first. To answer your question though, I believe infantry would be a good start. Does the NOAA provide any sort of field component to the marines portion?
Title: Re: Going to the Military
Post by: sonofapickle on June 09, 2010, 12:56:29 PM
What was your service like in the military?
Title: Re: Going to the Military
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 09, 2010, 02:25:36 PM
I was Army and as enlisted, so it was different than the marines or any other branch would be. I liked it though.
Title: Re: Going to the Military
Post by: sonofapickle on June 13, 2010, 02:34:35 PM
OK, I will be doing a 10-week course in training in the summer of 2011, OSO. I just have to follow the regimen for the training and be prepared.
Title: Re: Going to the Military
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 13, 2010, 07:20:13 PM
thats a good plan. Have you talked to a recruitment NCO or officer to discuss your time to take your ASVAB?
They have free study tools online but the recruiters can give you the more up to date ones on disk.

OK, I will be doing a 10-week course in training in the summer of 2011, OSO. I just have to follow the regimen for the training and be prepared.
Title: Re: Going to the Military
Post by: sonofapickle on June 14, 2010, 05:44:21 PM
I already took it, ended scoring well from what I think. I was told by the officer 99% is good but an 80 could be just as good. I was wondering, the hell? Then what is up with scoring a 99% if that is not as good as an 80%? You know about the scoring because that confused the hell out of me. I did well in GS, EI, MK, WK, and the rest of the sections I scored decently which were enough to put me in the 99% range I believe. I would like some clarification on why a 99 might not be as good as an 80 as that does not seem right to me.
Title: Re: Going to the Military
Post by: vercingetorix on June 14, 2010, 06:36:28 PM
thats a good plan. Have you talked to a recruitment NCO or officer to discuss your time to take your ASVAB?
They have free study tools online but the recruiters can give you the more up to date ones on disk.

OK, I will be doing a 10-week course in training in the summer of 2011, OSO. I just have to follow the regimen for the training and be prepared.

There are so many problems with this post I don't know where to begin. First of all, if you are a college graduate and you are considering going OCS, why are you taking the ASVAB? Unless things have changed drastically since I was commissioned in 1997, you will eventually take a bunch of other exams, but if you got a BA/BS from an accredited 4 year college or university, you shouldn't be taking the ASVAB. Secondly, if you want to be an 0302 (not easy to do) don't go to law school. Why bother? As an aside, most infantry types are not reconnaissance Marines. "Going Recon" is completely voluntary and is very selective. Since 2006, the Marines actively contribute to SOCOM via MARSOC. The surest way to MARSOC is through Recon. Additionally, in the Marines, you will have very little say what MOS you get. Oh by the way, some of the smartest people I ever met in my life were in the Marines. Period. I'm not sure where the impression that dummies go DOD comes from but it is 1. false and 2. counterproductive if you hope to join their elite ranks. I emailed one of my friends who is an AV-8B driver and a graduate in philosophy from Columbia your back and forth about being smart. Dangerous talk man. Lose that before you go or you'll last about a week.  Just as a for example, the attrition rates in my OCS class (Charlie Co, 1997) was 30%. That is low. If you do PLC, it is much higher. Anywho, most of the information on these boards regarding military service is wrong or worse, half-right. Just as another for example, there is only one MOS in the USMC requiring a specific degree and that is JAG. This guy you are conversing with (Numitor) was in the Army, (very different animal), was enlisted (very different from commissioned) and holds some very bizarre opinions about Airforce and Navy types. That's just for starters.
Title: Re: Going to the Military
Post by: sonofapickle on June 14, 2010, 07:48:31 PM
I took it as more of an elective than a requirement. There are other tests I have to take though that are requirements. But, I am a college senior and I thought PLC was more centered around soph., juni., and freshmen?
Title: Re: Going to the Military
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 14, 2010, 07:57:50 PM
ASTB is required for marine officer. Here is more info on it and the scores for what officer jobs.
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  ASTB Frequently Asked Questions
Frequently Asked Questions about the ASTB
What does the ASTB measure?
The ASTB is primarily an aptitude test - it assesses math skills and aptitude, the ability to extract meaning from written material, familiarity with mechanical concepts and simple machines, and the ability to perform mental rotations to determine the orientation of aircraft in 3-dimensional space.

The ASTB also measures a test taker's knowledge of aviation and nautical terminology, familiarity with aircraft components and function, knowledge of basic aerodynamic principles, and a grasp of basic flight rules and regulations. Performance on this part of the battery can be improved by study, and examinees with aviation and to a lesser extent, shipboard experience, will typically do well. Both of these concepts have proven to be excellent predictors of training performance. That is, examinees that enter the flight program with some level of basic knowledge in these areas are more likely to succeed as aviators.

How do I know if I should take the entire ASTB or only the OAR portion?
A general guideline is that individuals who are applying for aviation programs should take the entire ASTB battery (Navy and Marine Corps pilot and flight officer programs and Coast Guard pilot programs). Individuals that are applying for other programs (e.g., Navy OCS) may only be required to take the OAR portion, but individuals should talk to their recruiters or program administrators for more information.

How well does the ASTB predict training performance and attrition?
ASTB scores are highly predictive of aviation training outcomes, such as grades that are obtained from tests during training in classroom settings (academic grades) and ratings that are derived from performance in aircraft (flight grades). The measure that is used to describe the test's ability to predict flight grades and academic grades is called validity. Validity coefficients range from 0 (the test does not predict flight grades and academic grades at all) to 1 (the test predicts flight grades and academic grades perfectly). The predictive validity of the AQR for the prediction of SNA (pilot) academic grades is r = .45 (p < .001), while the validity of the PFAR to predict SNA flight grades is r = .35 (p < .001). The validities for both academic and flight grades compare favorably with industry selection testing standards.

Even though the prediction of these criteria is a valuable resource, one of the most important utilizations of the ASTB is its ability to predict attrition, which refers to a student's probability of completing aviation training. Approximately 22% of pilots and 25% of flight officers attrite from aviation training each year, which has proven to be problematic for the Navy and Marine Corps due to the high costs associated with training each student. Therefore, it is estimated that the reduction in training attrition costs produced by ASTB screening saves the Navy and Marine Corps over 30 million dollars each year.

Can I take the ASTB on a computer? Will I have an advantage if I take the paper version of the test?
At some test sites, the ASTB is available in a web-based format called APEX.NET. The content on the computer-administered version of the test is identical to the paper-and-pencil version of the test. The web-based version of the ASTB allows for the administration of the exam anywhere in the world, but the system is operated on a secure server that is monitored and controlled by NOMI. Even though some individuals feel more comfortable taking the paper version of the test, studies have found that there is no significant difference in pass rates between the paper and computer versions of the test.

What type of identification do I need to bring to the testing site?
You should bring some form of photo identification (i.e., driver's license, military ID card, passport) and verification of your social security number (i.e., social security card).

Can I use a calculator on the test?
No, the math problems on the exam are designed to be completed without the use of a calculator, but a few formulas are provided. Each examinee is provided scrap paper to compute problems.

How can I find out my ASTB scores? Is there any way to find out my scores immediately?
The paper-and-pencil version of the ASTB must be sent to NOMI to be scored. Unlike previous forms of the test, scoring manuals were not issued to the fleet for ASTB Forms 3, 4, and 5 in order to protect test security. Therefore, recruiters and other test administrators are no longer able to provide unofficial scores for the test. In order to obtain scores for the test, examinees or recruiters may call 850-452-2435 or 850-452-2379. An official score letter will be generated that can be faxed, mailed, or e-mailed to the examinee. On the other hand, score letters can ONLY be e-mailed to addresses that end in .mil or .edu (For example Joe Examinee@nomi.med.navy.mil). Individuals can also request scores by sending an e-mail to NOMI-psychtech@med.navy.mil. Individuals should include their name and social security number as well as the address, fax number, or e-mail address where they would like to receive the score letter.

Immediate scores on these ASTB forms can be generated using the APEX.NET web-based platform for ASTB administration. Please ask your recruiter for more information about taking an online administration of the test.

What is the Biographical Inventory (BI) and why isn't it used any longer?
The BI considers background experiences, such as extracurricular involvement in high school and college, relevant to success in the fast-paced and demanding aviation program. Although the BI was initially a powerful predictor of attrition, its ability to predict which students will complete aviation training has essentially declined to zero over a period of years and thus, was suspended.

What are the current ASTB minimum score requirements?
The minimum score requirements differ by program and service. Please refer to Program Authorizations 106 and 107, and MCO 1542.1I, or talk to your recruiter for specific information regarding the program to which you are applying.

Why were the old forms of the ASTB replaced? Are pass rates equivalent between the old (Forms 1 & 2) and new (Forms 3,4, & 5) ASTB forms?
There are several reasons for the introduction of new forms of the ASTB. The primary reason is that the last revision of the test occurred more than 10 years ago. Therefore, some of the questions had become outdated and needed to be revised. Also, widespread exposure of test questions on the Internet and in study guides made it necessary to update the ASTB to ensure its accuracy in identifying individuals that would be successful in aviation training.

Nationwide pass rates on the ASTB at both USN and USMC SNA & SNFO standards are virtually identical (+/- 3%) to pass rates on Forms 1 and 2.

Which tests make the greatest contribution to each score I receive?
The formulas that are utilized to compute ASTB score components are proprietary information and will not be released by NOMI. The following general guidance is offered to assist examinees in preparing for an ASTB test or retest.



Academic Qualifications Rating (AQR) : This score is affected by performance on all sub tests, but the strongest influence is made by the Math Skills Test.
Pilot Flight Aptitude Rating (PFAR): This score is affected by performance on all sub tests, but the greatest contribution is made by the Aviation & Nautical Information and Spatial Apperception Tests.
Flight Officer Flight Aptitude Rating (FOFAR): This score is affected by performance on all sub tests, but the strongest influence is made by the Math Skills Test.
Officer Aptitude Rating (OAR): This score is affected by performance on the first three sub tests, Math Skills, Reading Comprehension, and Mechanical Comprehension.

I heard there were some questions with no right answers on the ASTB. Is this just a rumor?
There were a few flawed items in one of the sub tests released with the new ASTB forms in 2004. NOMI caught these before any of the tests had been given, but several of the test booklets had already been mailed out to recruiters. Therefore, the flawed items were eliminated from the scoring key until updated forms were sent out. During the time period that the flawed items were in the field, examinee scores were calculated using fewer items so that examinee scores were not affected by the flawed items.

I have seen study guides for military aviation tests in bookstores. Would these guides help me study for the ASTB?
NOMI does not endorse any commercial study guides, but the guides might be helpful for examinees who want to acquire testing strategies, review and practice math principles and problems, familiarize themselves with military history and aviation terminology, and practice pacing on timed tests.
 

 
 
 
Title: Re: Going to the Military
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 14, 2010, 07:59:54 PM
Jobs that dont require it are direct commission jobs such as jag, doctors and chaplians.
Title: Re: Going to the Military
Post by: vercingetorix on June 15, 2010, 08:51:58 AM
Jobs that dont require it are direct commission jobs such as jag, doctors and chaplians.

This is the last I will post here. Numitor is flat out wrong. First of all the Aviation Selection Test Battery is taken by potential officer candidates who wish to be considered for Student Naval Aviator (SNA) status or Student Naval Flight Officer (SNFO) slots. The Marines have no physicians or chaplains, these are sourced through the Navy. Marine JAG officers are required to complete OCS and TBS and not some abbreviated version like officers who graduate from professional schools in other branches. If you want to have a serious talk about the Marines, I'd be happy to help out but I can assure you as someone who was an aviator in the Marines who transitioned out and went to law school that Numitor is either intentionally giving you a line or he is full of beans.
Title: Re: Going to the Military
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 15, 2010, 10:14:49 AM
How about this then, he does what his recruiter tells him to do. If his recruiter tells him to sit a test, he should do whatever the guys tells him to do.
Title: Re: Going to the Military
Post by: georgiadawg1 on June 24, 2010, 11:49:29 AM
This thread is a week or so old, but I'm a Marine officer on a JA contract and I'm willing to answer questions. I attended OCS last summer between my 2L and 3L year, graduated and commissioned in August. I'm studying for the bar now, and after that I will hopefully go on temporary orders (if there's funding) until TBS. If you are thinking about USMC in any capacity, law, air or ground, I highly recommend going the PLC route. OCC is stupid competitive right now (in fact there were no OCC Air slots for this summer), and PLC is no joke either because the USMC has met its end strength goal of 202,000. There are more candidates right now than slots available. If you want accurate information on what the process and OCS are like, I can help you. I have several friends who are currently active duty JAs as well so if you have questions about active duty service I may be able to help as well.