Law School Discussion

Law Students => Current Law Students => Topic started by: redjay on May 04, 2010, 08:42:24 AM

Title: Advice for open book?
Post by: redjay on May 04, 2010, 08:42:24 AM
Okay so this may be a shock, but I am a 3L and taking only my second open book exam this semester. I had one before and I did pretty mediocre on it. Does anyone have any good tips?

So far I have made a longer outline..
Went through it to find all the relevant topics and made single page outlines for each of the little issues (about 10 in all)...


Now I don't know what to do next...study the outline over the next couple days as if its not open book? Make some charts to make my answers quicker?

Thanks - I know this is odd coming from a 3rd year, but we have almost all closed book exams at my school.
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 04, 2010, 09:19:29 AM
congrats on being a real lawstudent. The "T1"'s here only know how to copy&paste last minute and cry about how hard it is. They're about as much use to you as what you find in the latrine after a studybreak.

Just try to memorise it, but yes take it with you if they let you. Try to get your hands on prior exams from that course and see what type of questions are normally asked and focus on those area. I'd say memorise different stuff than what you bring with you, that way you have twice as much to work with.
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: Specks on May 04, 2010, 06:59:51 PM
I'd make a table of contents if you have a large outline. Also, write out a model answer if you can beforehand. This is helpful just to have on hand in case you stall and need to remind  yourself of the general issues to talk about. Also, if you have a really long outline I suggest you make an attack outline. This will be helpful to you for short quick reference without having to flip through a huge outline. I always take two outlines into an exam if it is open book.
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: nealric on May 04, 2010, 08:14:29 PM
Quote
congrats on being a real lawstudent. The "T1"'s here only know how to copy&paste last minute and cry about how hard it is. They're about as much use to you as what you find in the latrine after a studybreak. 

I know you are just trolling, but how 'bout that closed book bar exam where most T1s pass at 90%+?
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 04, 2010, 08:22:43 PM
No *&^%, I'd say its pathetic you loose 10% when you HAVE YOUR CHEAT SHEET IN FRONT OF YOU THE WHOLE TIME!!!
Yeah not braggin' rights dude.

Quote
congrats on being a real lawstudent. The "T1"'s here only know how to copy&paste last minute and cry about how hard it is. They're about as much use to you as what you find in the latrine after a studybreak. 

I know you are just trolling, but how 'bout that closed book bar exam where most T1s pass at 90%+?
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: Jamie Stringer on May 04, 2010, 08:26:19 PM
No *&^%, I'd say its pathetic you loose 10% when you HAVE YOUR CHEAT SHEET IN FRONT OF YOU THE WHOLE TIME!!!
Yeah not braggin' rights dude.

Quote
congrats on being a real lawstudent. The "T1"'s here only know how to copy&paste last minute and cry about how hard it is. They're about as much use to you as what you find in the latrine after a studybreak. 

I know you are just trolling, but how 'bout that closed book bar exam where most T1s pass at 90%+?

:D

Except he said closed book bar exam.
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 04, 2010, 08:29:03 PM
Yeah, but thats because its all spoonfed stuff a highschooler could pass, try a real exam and then we'll talk.

No bunnies, I'd say its pathetic you loose 10% when you HAVE YOUR CHEAT SHEET IN FRONT OF YOU THE WHOLE TIME!!!
Yeah not braggin' rights dude.

Quote
congrats on being a real lawstudent. The "T1"'s here only know how to copy&paste last minute and cry about how hard it is. They're about as much use to you as what you find in the latrine after a studybreak. 

I know you are just trolling, but how 'bout that closed book bar exam where most T1s pass at 90%+?

:D

Except he said closed book bar exam.
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: the white rabbit on May 04, 2010, 08:39:19 PM
congrats on being a real lawstudent. The "T1"'s here only know how to copy&paste last minute and cry about how hard it is.

You make it sound like memorization is hard.
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 04, 2010, 08:41:59 PM
a hell of a lot harder than copy&paste.

congrats on being a real lawstudent. The "T1"'s here only know how to copy&paste last minute and cry about how hard it is.

You make it sound like memorization is hard.
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: the white rabbit on May 04, 2010, 08:45:07 PM
a hell of a lot harder than copy&paste.

congrats on being a real lawstudent. The "T1"'s here only know how to copy&paste last minute and cry about how hard it is.

You make it sound like memorization is hard.

You realize that it's not actually possible to copy and paste an answer if you're using examsoft or some other similar software that will not allow you to open up other programs, right?  Maybe you don't.  I don't know if what they say about you being a Michigan student pretending to be a Cooley student is true.
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 04, 2010, 08:47:30 PM
I dont mean the F'in program, I mean looking at it and replicating it. Let me break it down to preschool level for you so you can understand.

a hell of a lot harder than copy&paste.

congrats on being a real lawstudent. The "T1"'s here only know how to copy&paste last minute and cry about how hard it is.

You make it sound like memorization is hard.

You realize that it's not actually possible to copy and paste an answer if you're using examsoft or some other similar software that will not allow you to open up other programs, right?  Maybe you don't.  I don't know if what they say about you being a Michigan student pretending to be a Cooley student is true.
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 04, 2010, 08:48:25 PM
cooley is in michigan.....dumbass. ::)

a hell of a lot harder than copy&paste.

congrats on being a real lawstudent. The "T1"'s here only know how to copy&paste last minute and cry about how hard it is.

You make it sound like memorization is hard.

You realize that it's not actually possible to copy and paste an answer if you're using examsoft or some other similar software that will not allow you to open up other programs, right?  Maybe you don't.  I don't know if what they say about you being a Michigan student pretending to be a Cooley student is true.
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: the white rabbit on May 04, 2010, 08:51:18 PM
I dont mean the F'in program, I mean looking at it and replicating it. Let me break it down to preschool level for you so you can understand.

Then tell me, how useful is it to pre-write an answer without knowing the fact pattern?  ???

cooley is in michigan.....dumbass. ::)

Is it?  Not sure why I would know that.  I'm sorry, I should have been clearer: UMichigan.
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 04, 2010, 08:58:54 PM
Yeah I knew the michigan deal, just being a smartass.


As for the other issue, no *&^% you don't know the question, but thats the easy part. The issue is having the elements and the laws memorised, which if you have those on hand, its all cookie-cutter. "but...but...he could ask 2plus2 or 2times2...." Its the same shitt! >:(
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 04, 2010, 09:00:21 PM
of course you know where cooley is, just find the center of the universe on any given map, and there we are, smack in the center of it.

I dont mean the F'in program, I mean looking at it and replicating it. Let me break it down to preschool level for you so you can understand.

Then tell me, how useful is it to pre-write an answer without knowing the fact pattern?  ???

cooley is in michigan.....dumbass. ::)

Is it?  Not sure why I would know that.  I'm sorry, I should have been clearer: UMichigan.
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: the white rabbit on May 04, 2010, 10:05:52 PM
As for the other issue, no bunnies you don't know the question, but thats the easy part. The issue is having the elements and the laws memorised,

Actually, the memorization is considered the easy part at the top schools, which is why they don't bother testing you on your ability to memorize.  Hence, open-book.  (Frankly, it doesn't make much difference anyway because you end up memorizing most of the stuff just by creating outlines or other study materials.  If you're actually looking for the answer to a legal question during the exam, something's gone terribly wrong.)
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 04, 2010, 10:49:28 PM
huh....so  you "dont need it" so then why do they allow it? If you "dont need it" then why not, not allow it to prove it?

"I dont need that pot man.....now give it to me or I'll fukin' kill ya!" ::)

As for the other issue, no bunnies you don't know the question, but thats the easy part. The issue is having the elements and the laws memorised,

Actually, the memorization is considered the easy part at the top schools, which is why they don't bother testing you on your ability to memorize.  Hence, open-book.  (Frankly, it doesn't make much difference anyway because you end up memorizing most of the stuff just by creating outlines or other study materials.  If you're actually looking for the answer to a legal question during the exam, something's gone terribly wrong.)
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: the white rabbit on May 05, 2010, 03:27:53 AM
huh....so  you "dont need it" so then why do they allow it? If you "dont need it" then why not, not allow it to prove it?

"I dont need that pot man.....now give it to me or I'll fukin' kill ya!" ::)

Because law students are a neurotic bunch and they don't want us to waste our time and drive ourselves crazy.

The evidence is the bar passage rate for the top schools: there, memorization is required.
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 05, 2010, 11:32:36 AM
so baby needs it bottle, that's what you're trying to tell me? :'(

huh....so  you "dont need it" so then why do they allow it? If you "dont need it" then why not, not allow it to prove it?

"I dont need that pot man.....now give it to me or I'll fukin' kill ya!" ::)

Because law students are a neurotic bunch and they don't want us to waste our time and drive ourselves crazy.

The evidence is the bar passage rate for the top schools: there, memorization is required.
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: redjay on May 05, 2010, 01:19:44 PM
FWIW, my school has a higher bar passage rate than most of the T1's in my state.
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 05, 2010, 08:03:42 PM
thats cool, whats its name?

FWIW, my school has a higher bar passage rate than most of the T1's in my state.
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: the white rabbit on May 06, 2010, 03:30:06 AM
so baby needs it bottle, that's what you're trying to tell me? :'(

This is what I get for not thinking through my user name.

A better analogy might be using calculators on math tests.  When they're testing you for your ability to do simple arithmetic, it makes no sense to allow them.  If you're doing calculus, it doesn't matter that you have a calculator with you because frankly, everybody at that level has mastered arithmetic to the point where it would just be silly for it to factor into your grade.
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 06, 2010, 08:33:21 PM
first "scientific calculators"(the ones used on said tests) do a HELL of a lot more than you give them credit for(you are either a lier or a fool) second, ....baby needs its bottle?..... :'(

so baby needs it bottle, that's what you're trying to tell me? :'(

This is what I get for not thinking through my user name.

A better analogy might be using calculators on math tests.  When they're testing you for your ability to do simple arithmetic, it makes no sense to allow them.  If you're doing calculus, it doesn't matter that you have a calculator with you because frankly, everybody at that level has mastered arithmetic to the point where it would just be silly for it to factor into your grade.
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: the white rabbit on May 06, 2010, 10:28:48 PM
first "scientific calculators"(the ones used on said tests) do a HELL of a lot more than you give them credit for(you are either a lier or a fool) second, ....baby needs its bottle?..... :'(

First, whoever said scientific calculator?  But that's beside the point.  Do you disagree that tests on advanced subjects shouldn't come down to your ability to perform basic tasks?  A calculus test should test your knowledge of calculus and not your arithmetic skills, don't you think?

Second, only if it's tequila.  ;)
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 06, 2010, 11:05:32 PM
my point was you are a retard and too stupid to know what a scientific calulator is and what it does, thanks for proving my point.

first "scientific calculators"(the ones used on said tests) do a HELL of a lot more than you give them credit for(you are either a lier or a fool) second, ....baby needs its bottle?..... :'(

First, whoever said scientific calculator?  But that's beside the point.  Do you disagree that tests on advanced subjects shouldn't come down to your ability to perform basic tasks?  A calculus test should test your knowledge of calculus and not your arithmetic skills, don't you think?

Second, only if it's tequila.  ;)
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: the white rabbit on May 07, 2010, 03:33:31 AM
my point was you are a retard and too stupid to know what a scientific calulator is and what it does, thanks for proving my point.

I notice you didn't actually answer my question about whether or not there is a point at which it becomes silly to test for basic skills.  So again, do you disagree that tests on advanced subjects shouldn't come down to your ability to perform basic tasks?  A calculus test should test your knowledge of calculus and not your arithmetic skills, don't you think?
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 07, 2010, 05:11:59 PM
"but...but......you didnt....stop.......I dont care if you did explain it, I want to pretend like you didnt......so yeah!....... ::)

my point was you are a retard and too stupid to know what a scientific calulator is and what it does, thanks for proving my point.

I notice you didn't actually answer my question about whether or not there is a point at which it becomes silly to test for basic skills.  So again, do you disagree that tests on advanced subjects shouldn't come down to your ability to perform basic tasks?  A calculus test should test your knowledge of calculus and not your arithmetic skills, don't you think?
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: the white rabbit on May 08, 2010, 05:32:54 AM
"but...but......you didnt....stop.......I dont care if you did explain it, I want to pretend like you didnt......so yeah!....... ::)

my point was you are a retard and too stupid to know what a scientific calulator is and what it does, thanks for proving my point.

I notice you didn't actually answer my question about whether or not there is a point at which it becomes silly to test for basic skills.  So again, do you disagree that tests on advanced subjects shouldn't come down to your ability to perform basic tasks?  A calculus test should test your knowledge of calculus and not your arithmetic skills, don't you think?

Still evading.  I ask a question that requires a simple yes or no: do you disagree that tests on advanced subjects shouldn't come down to your ability to perform basic tasks?
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 08, 2010, 02:43:42 PM
should they be graded on if you are smart, yeah. Should you need a reacharound while doing it, no.

There an answer and a bonus, "but....but....... :'("
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: MCB on May 08, 2010, 09:39:02 PM
As for the other issue, no bunnies you don't know the question, but thats the easy part. The issue is having the elements and the laws memorised,

Actually, the memorization is considered the easy part at the top schools, which is why they don't bother testing you on your ability to memorize.  Hence, open-book.  (Frankly, it doesn't make much difference anyway because you end up memorizing most of the stuff just by creating outlines or other study materials.  If you're actually looking for the answer to a legal question during the exam, something's gone terribly wrong.)

I agree with this.  I find the open book exams to be much more challenging, at least to ace.  This is because you basically get no credit for the strict memorization you've done (the easy part of what you're doing when you're studying in law school!).  The grades are given based on a curve as everyone here knows, and if all the students have an outline giving them black letter answers, then essentially the entire significant part of your exam grade turns on the depth and quality of your analysis.  

I never get how students seem relieved when they find out that an exam will be open note/open book.  Maybe if you were the ONLY one allowed to have notes, then it would help you.  But since everyone has them, we all just end up canceling each other out on the easiest parts!  I was talking to a fellow student about this exact thing earlier today, and we theorized that professors like to go open note because the overall quality of exam probably goes up.  Which of course, doesn't benefit students so much as it benefits them.   :-\  I doubt it has much to do with not wanting to stress us out.
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: the white rabbit on May 09, 2010, 08:20:02 AM
should they be graded on if you are smart, yeah. Should you need a reacharound while doing it, no.

There an answer and a bonus, "but....but....... :'("

Actually, replacing my question with your question and then replacing that doesn't qualify as giving an answer.  I'll ask again, do you disagree that tests on advanced subjects shouldn't come down to your ability to perform basic tasks?  Yes or no?

I was talking to a fellow student about this exact thing earlier today, and we theorized that professors like to go open note because the overall quality of exam probably goes up.  Which of course, doesn't benefit students so much as it benefits them.   :-\  I doubt it has much to do with not wanting to stress us out.

That's a fair point.  :D
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 09, 2010, 10:02:17 AM
just because you are too sutupid to read, dosn't mean that I will keep repeating it.

but...but.....I said yae or nae and you said yes.......


should they be graded on if you are smart, yeah. Should you need a reacharound while doing it, no.

There an answer and a bonus, "but....but....... :'("

Actually, replacing my question with your question and then replacing that doesn't qualify as giving an answer.  I'll ask again, do you disagree that tests on advanced subjects shouldn't come down to your ability to perform basic tasks?  Yes or no?

I was talking to a fellow student about this exact thing earlier today, and we theorized that professors like to go open note because the overall quality of exam probably goes up.  Which of course, doesn't benefit students so much as it benefits them.   :-\  I doubt it has much to do with not wanting to stress us out.

That's a fair point.  :D
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: the white rabbit on May 11, 2010, 08:42:14 PM
just because you are too sutupid to read, dosn't mean that I will keep repeating it.

but...but.....I said yae or nae and you said yes.......

You can insult me all you want.  It does not change the fact that you failed to answer a very simple yes or no question.

Work on that.  :)
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 11, 2010, 10:20:05 PM
"if I cover my eyes and plug my eyes, and say "no you didnt" then it all just goes away"..... :P

just because you are too sutupid to read, dosn't mean that I will keep repeating it.

but...but.....I said yae or nae and you said yes.......

You can insult me all you want.  It does not change the fact that you failed to answer a very simple yes or no question.

Work on that.  :)
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: the white rabbit on May 14, 2010, 05:17:23 AM
"if I cover my eyes and plug my eyes, and say "no you didnt" then it all just goes away"..... :P

I'm not the one trying to make noise to hide the fact that I can't answer a simple question without giving up something I don't want to.  :)

I can't believe nealric hasn't locked this thread already.  :D
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 14, 2010, 05:51:38 PM
candyman.....candyman.....CAN DYMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ::)
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: the white rabbit on May 16, 2010, 07:34:09 AM
candyman.....candyman.....CANDYMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ::)

While we're waiting, you should give me a yes or no as to whether tests on advanced subjects should come down to one's ability to perform basic tasks.
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 16, 2010, 12:54:42 PM
Guy I said yes before(even if you are too simple to get that) but they teach us to break stuff down to preschool level for the courts, so yes.............by which I mean Y followed by E followed by S........as in the opposit of no.

That was never at issue, you know it, etc,etc.
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: the white rabbit on May 16, 2010, 02:32:46 PM
Guy I said yes before(even if you are too simple to get that) but they teach us to break stuff down to preschool level for the courts, so yes.............by which I mean Y followed by E followed by S........as in the opposit of no.

That was never at issue, you know it, etc,etc.

So you think tests on advanced subjects should come down to one's ability to perform basic tasks.  Got it.

See that wasn't so hard.
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 16, 2010, 02:34:55 PM
How does that impact the REAL question at issue(answer it dosnt) you just want to pretend to have a victory.

Explain how you think it makes ANY impact on the question we had at issue?(can you even remember any more)\


"So in conclusion your honor, the prosocuter agrees than bananas are indeed green SOME of the time..........what do you mean death penalty?"  ???
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: the white rabbit on May 16, 2010, 02:43:08 PM
How does that impact the REAL question at issue(answer it dosnt) you just want to pretend to have a victory.

Explain how you think it makes ANY impact on the question we had at issue?(can you even remember any more)

It took so long for you to give me a yes or no that I barely remember what the issue was. 

I think my point was that when you're testing for relatively advanced knowledge (e.g. calculus), you want to remove very basic skills (e.g. arithmetic) as a variable, since pretty much anyone who's taking calculus will have mastered arithmetic, and any variation in terms in arithmetic is probably coming down to random chance. 

Same thing with law school exams: if you're pretty confident that everybody has the ability to memorize the black letter law (which is, frankly, pretty easy to do), then you want to remove memorization as a variable, since pretty much anyone who's at one of the very top schools has the ability to memorize the black letter law.

And your view is the complete opposite: make the calculus test about arithmetic, make the legal analysis about memorization of the law. 

Just getting clarification that that is what you believe, is all.  :)
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 16, 2010, 02:47:54 PM
you don't think that law should involve the law? :o
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: the white rabbit on May 16, 2010, 02:49:39 PM
you don't think that law should involve the law? :o

You think that lawyers give legal advice based on what they have memorized?
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 16, 2010, 02:52:29 PM
I think lawyers should have to memorise law yes, thats why its "law school"
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: the white rabbit on May 16, 2010, 02:55:24 PM
I think lawyers should have to memorise law yes, thats why its "law school"

Do you think that mathematicians spend their time memorizing the sine/cosine/tangent figures for various angles?  Why bother memorizing things when you can just go look it up in a book or a chart?

The real value that a lawyer adds is knowing where to look and knowing what to do with the information once she finds it.
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 16, 2010, 02:56:29 PM
then why not just give a one semester course followed by a one year internship, you could learn that in that much or less, why waste a full 3 years?
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: the white rabbit on May 16, 2010, 02:57:46 PM
then why not just give a one semester course followed by a one year internship, you could learn that in that much or less, why waste a full 3 years?

I never said I thought all three years of law school were valuable.  I think it should be a lot shorter (and more practical), for the record.
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 16, 2010, 02:58:45 PM
then why even have a bar exam?
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: the white rabbit on May 16, 2010, 03:01:39 PM
then why even have a bar exam?

It's basically just an entry barrier.  People don't actually give legal advice based on what they have memorized for the bar exam.  I mean it's fine if you have a general sense of what the answer to a question should be based on what you DO remember, but you would always go back and check to make sure it was right because you gave legal advice.  It would be irresponsible not to.  There's too much law out there for anyone to contain it all in one's brain long-term.
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 16, 2010, 03:02:26 PM
so  then you'd prefer the bar open book too?
Title: Re: Advice for open book?
Post by: the white rabbit on May 16, 2010, 03:04:28 PM
so  then you'd prefer the bar open book too?

Frankly I would have, but then they would have to make it much, much harder.

(The exam itself was not all that difficult in terms of the level of analysis that was required.)