Law School Discussion

Law Students => Incoming 1Ls => Topic started by: IAmMultipleBooks on April 14, 2010, 05:37:17 AM

Title: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: IAmMultipleBooks on April 14, 2010, 05:37:17 AM
I have the inside view from a T14. MOST of my fellow graduating 3Ls do not have job offers. ANY offers. This is not simply a lack of BigLaw jobs but a structural problem in the legal community in general. Don't be fooled into thinking, "Well, I never wanted to be making $160k working at a stifling corporate law firm anyway." The job market is pure crap across the board. There is stunningly high unemployment at these elite schools.

However, the school is rehiring many of us to work at the library or in part-time research assistant positions so that we do not drag down the employment rate.

You are a fool if you think law school is a decent place to "ride out the recession."

Even Harvard Law grads are having problems finding jobs. So if the T14 grads are in danger, then what about the rest of the schools (from first tier to TTT to fourth tier)?

I hope this post is not deleted. It could save people hundreds of thousands of dollars. If you got into a law school and paid a deposit, you must still think about what I am saying and make a wise decision.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: nealric on April 14, 2010, 03:47:27 PM
I'm not going to delete your post, but I think you exaggerate just a bit.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 14, 2010, 04:03:38 PM
Actually the lower T's aren't that bad off, lots come back as adjuct professors and tell stories of doing just fine.


I have the inside view from a T14. MOST of my fellow graduating 3Ls do not have job offers. ANY offers. This is not simply a lack of BigLaw jobs but a structural problem in the legal community in general. Don't be fooled into thinking, "Well, I never wanted to be making $160k working at a stifling corporate law firm anyway." The job market is pure crap across the board. There is stunningly high unemployment at these elite schools.

However, the school is rehiring many of us to work at the library or in part-time research assistant positions so that we do not drag down the employment rate.

You are a fool if you think law school is a decent place to "ride out the recession."

Even Harvard Law grads are having problems finding jobs. So if the T14 grads are in danger, then what about the rest of the schools (from first tier to TTT to fourth tier)?

I hope this post is not deleted. It could save people hundreds of thousands of dollars. If you got into a law school and paid a deposit, you must still think about what I am saying and make a wise decision.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: Haynes7 on April 14, 2010, 11:18:14 PM
I understand your frustration.  My whole life I was told that going to college would get you a good job.  I did what all the adults in my life told me and went to college.  Now I cannot find a job to save my life. 

My question for you is...do you honestly think your comment is going to change anyone's mind?

  Im broke and facing having to default on my loans from my undergraduate degree.  If law school does nothing else it buys me three more years.  I feel like  law school is the ONLY thing my undergrad degree has gotten me and you are telling me to give that up?  What is the worst that could happen?  I end up unemployed and homeless...well that is gonna happen even if I don't go to law school.  At least if I have a law education I will be a homeless person with a darn good understand of the law.   
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 14, 2010, 11:59:04 PM
Ok, I'm tired of all the lies behind the idea of being forced to default on a student loan. Its a lie, always was a lie, always will be a lie. There are options, just ones that people don't want to take.
1) Join the military(if your handicap not an option, but if a coward then get over it)
2) Join the Americorps or PeaceCorps to at least push back those loans untill you can get work.
3) Try to get studnet loan forgivness(not easy to get, but if you cant get at least one of these then there is always suicide)

Seriously, if you can't get a "real" job and don't have the energy to do the first two options up there, then you have only yourself to blame. Period.



I understand your frustration.  My whole life I was told that going to college would get you a good job.  I did what all the adults in my life told me and went to college.  Now I cannot find a job to save my life. 

My question for you is...do you honestly think your comment is going to change anyone's mind?

  Im broke and facing having to default on my loans from my undergraduate degree.  If law school does nothing else it buys me three more years.  I feel like  law school is the ONLY thing my undergrad degree has gotten me and you are telling me to give that up?  What is the worst that could happen?  I end up unemployed and homeless...well that is gonna happen even if I don't go to law school.  At least if I have a law education I will be a homeless person with a darn good understand of the law.   
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 15, 2010, 06:01:46 AM
Many people in many fields are having a hard time finding jobs no matter what the pedigree or field. 

On the other hand, many of those fields don't involve $200k of student loans.  That's probably the more important point.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: TheCause on April 15, 2010, 09:47:20 AM
Okay, Okay... I've got the answer.

EVERYONE GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!

Just wait to go until you've saved up $50,000-$100,000 first.

Problem Solved.



Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 15, 2010, 11:00:46 AM
Honestly the state could pay for it, and it wouldn't be that hard. When I started in undergrad there must have been half the room in 100 level courses that had some sort of pell  grant or "now worker left behind" funding, most of those A-holes failed out(trailer park homeschooling didn't prepare them as much as they had hoped) or just quit for some reason like "my teachers are mean...give me SSI....waaaaaaaaaaaaaa!" Point being, if they lumped all that into a pile they could pay off a shitload of studentloans for Grad students, but they won't. Long live the trailer park GED!


Okay, Okay... I've got the answer.

EVERYONE GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!

Just wait to go until you've saved up $50,000-$100,000 first.

Problem Solved.




Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: IAmMultipleBooks on April 15, 2010, 04:56:37 PM
Why are people so f'ing stupid GLOBAL RECESSION GLOBALnot law school recession. Many people in many fields are having a hard time finding jobs no matter what the pedigree or field.  Hence the word GLOBAL recession.

To be honest it is not surprising someone who complains on an internet forum how hard it is to find a job is having trouble.  Go out and do something about it apply to jobs rather than complain on here about how hard it is.

OP have you ever had a job I am just curious?

From your post I am assuming you have never really worked before and probably went straight from undergrad to law school and as a result you never had the realization that getting a degree does not make you special. No offense to you I had that same feeling when I got out of undergrad and I was baffled that I actually had to go out and find a job and a lot of people even turned me down or ignored that is the real world though. Honestly, compmlaining on an internet forum about how tough your life is will not help you and that attitude could be why you are having trouble aside from the GLOBAL RESCISSION.



Exactly. It's a GLOBAL recession. That means these prospective students are not going to "hide" from it by spending $100,000 to attend law school.

The way I see it is like this:

If you do not have the money (and even if you do, then why waste it?) AND
If you do not have a close relative, business connection or friend in the legal profession,
THEN do not attend. [Possible exception if you get into Harvard, Yale, or Stanford because of the enormous prestige of those schools].

Yes, I have had a job before, and I don't expect anyone to bail me out. Spare me the Glenn Beck-style nonsense. I am not complaining about my life. I am only getting the message out through the thick cobwebs of lies and statistics manipulation. Do most of my colleagues have full-time jobs lined up? No. Am I in a Top 14? Yes. Are we being offered temporary part-time jobs at the school? Yes. Is it to boost the employment numbers? I think so. You judge for yourself.

There are many blogs where you can find information from people who have actually attended (apart from the isolated cheerleaders on this board).

I recommend:
http://lawschoolscam.blogspot.com
http://bigdebtsmalllaw.wordpress.com/
http://butidideverythingrightorsoithought.blogspot.com/
http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/
http://www.notolawschool.com/

Most of these blogs are from people who attended second-rate schools. These schools are called "Third Tier Toilet," although many, like Cardozo, Brooklyn Law, and Villanova, are not officially in the US News' Third Tier. However, I am here from the first tier to give you a dose of reality. Yes, I am a good student with a good resume. Yes, I have journal experience (and then some...). Everything I have said so far has been true.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 15, 2010, 07:31:40 PM
For whatever it's worth, I knew a lot of guys a few years older than myself who took out student loans to get masters degrees in the 80's, none of them even cared to use them to find work(they had professional licenses but had trouble finding work during the recession of the 1980's) They did it ONLY to use the student loans to pay rent and utilities. Period. Yeah they paid it back with interest(those who didnt get it "written off" before they changed the bankruptcy rules in regards to studentloans(f#in' A-hole Clinton) ) but they paid the bills while "in school" and the masters degrees helped make it a bit easier to climb the corporate ranks once they refound work latter on.

Caveat, Survive today......the future will deal with itself.

Besides those who don't "waste" money on student loans still get even worse in debt by useing creditcards, cash advances, etc to buy what they need but with a 30%APR instead of single digit on student loans(which can be defered with nominal effort)
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: angel the lawyer on April 15, 2010, 10:09:14 PM
Wow. This board is so hard to navigate.  I'm Angel from http://butidideverythingrightorsoithought.blogspot.com and I saw that I have been getting traffic from this site.  I snuck a peak and I wanted to make a correction.  Both Hardknocks (my co-blogger) and I went to first tier schools. She went to a T14 and I went to a T30.  We are having an extremely difficult time finding work and I formerly worked for BigLaw and I've been out 10 years.  You guys have no clue what it's like in the legal industry. It's been bad since I graduated. Worst case scenario, you work for a *&^% law small firm for a pittance (or today.. you are unemployed and homeless).  Best case scenario, you get a BigLaw job and your tossed out in 3 to 5 years.  Then you're stuck earning pennies in nonprofit. There is no long term, profitable option.  So, do what you want. But think of me when you're doing temp doc review for $28/hour.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 15, 2010, 10:16:38 PM
From the horses(and probally horse-faced) mouth itself, "$28/hour"....what a whinny little self rightous A-hole.
So, in this "you wasted your life" scenario your still makeing 3X more than the idiots who didn't do it. Yeah, if that is worst case scenario, sign me up! WHAAAA....my mommy can't wipe my bum with $100 bills, we have to settle for singles....why did God do this to me.... :P


Wow. This board is so hard to navigate.  I'm Angel from http://butidideverythingrightorsoithought.blogspot.com and I saw that I have been getting traffic from this site.  I snuck a peak and I wanted to make a correction.  Both Hardknocks (my co-blogger) and I went to first tier schools. She went to a T14 and I went to a T30.  We are having an extremely difficult time finding work and I formerly worked for BigLaw and I've been out 10 years.  You guys have no clue what it's like in the legal industry. It's been bad since I graduated. Worst case scenario, you work for a poo law small firm for a pittance (or today.. you are unemployed and homeless).  Best case scenario, you get a BigLaw job and your tossed out in 3 to 5 years.  Then you're stuck earning pennies in nonprofit. There is no long term, profitable option.  So, do what you want. But think of me when you're doing temp doc review for $28/hour.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: angel the lawyer on April 15, 2010, 10:54:14 PM
You're such a stupid idiot.  Do you assume you work for the whole year?  You are lucky if you get work 6 months out of the year.  How much is that annualized?   


From the horses(and probally horse-faced) mouth itself, "$28/hour"....what a whinny little self rightous A-hole.
So, in this "you wasted your life" scenario your still makeing 3X more than the idiots who didn't do it. Yeah, if that is worst case scenario, sign me up! WHAAAA....my mommy can't wipe my bum with $100 bills, we have to settle for singles....why did God do this to me.... :P


Wow. This board is so hard to navigate.  I'm Angel from http://butidideverythingrightorsoithought.blogspot.com and I saw that I have been getting traffic from this site.  I snuck a peak and I wanted to make a correction.  Both Hardknocks (my co-blogger) and I went to first tier schools. She went to a T14 and I went to a T30.  We are having an extremely difficult time finding work and I formerly worked for BigLaw and I've been out 10 years.  You guys have no clue what it's like in the legal industry. It's been bad since I graduated. Worst case scenario, you work for a poo law small firm for a pittance (or today.. you are unemployed and homeless).  Best case scenario, you get a BigLaw job and your tossed out in 3 to 5 years.  Then you're stuck earning pennies in nonprofit. There is no long term, profitable option.  So, do what you want. But think of me when you're doing temp doc review for $28/hour.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: angel the lawyer on April 15, 2010, 10:56:32 PM
By the way, I'm not horse faced. You wish your girlfriend looked like me. 
I can't help people who have IQs lower than their shoe size.  Ciao!

From the horses(and probally horse-faced) mouth itself, "$28/hour"....what a whinny little self rightous A-hole.
So, in this "you wasted your life" scenario your still makeing 3X more than the idiots who didn't do it. Yeah, if that is worst case scenario, sign me up! WHAAAA....my mommy can't wipe my bum with $100 bills, we have to settle for singles....why did God do this to me.... :P


Wow. This board is so hard to navigate.  I'm Angel from http://butidideverythingrightorsoithought.blogspot.com and I saw that I have been getting traffic from this site.  I snuck a peak and I wanted to make a correction.  Both Hardknocks (my co-blogger) and I went to first tier schools. She went to a T14 and I went to a T30.  We are having an extremely difficult time finding work and I formerly worked for BigLaw and I've been out 10 years.  You guys have no clue what it's like in the legal industry. It's been bad since I graduated. Worst case scenario, you work for a poo law small firm for a pittance (or today.. you are unemployed and homeless).  Best case scenario, you get a BigLaw job and your tossed out in 3 to 5 years.  Then you're stuck earning pennies in nonprofit. There is no long term, profitable option.  So, do what you want. But think of me when you're doing temp doc review for $28/hour.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 15, 2010, 10:58:45 PM
Guy, I've been a "temp worker" in the past, two things are certin with that. 1) You will find other temp jobs if with a temp agency as long as your not stuck up your own ass about what your self rightous self is willing to take

2) You'll find fulltime work, either through placement or by looking on as you go.

Is it just me, or anyone else tired of all the losers who can't make it work, bitching that they only make in a month the same as a person with a real job makes in a year? You want work, go clean a toilet or build a car, if not stop your bitchin' you baby. You get really hard up, there's always a war looking to get fresh meat for the grinder too.  :'(
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 15, 2010, 11:00:24 PM
the daddy took care of me princess routine, yep. should've seen that comeing.....

By the way, I'm not horse faced. You wish your girlfriend looked like me. 
I can't help people who have IQs lower than their shoe size.  Ciao!

From the horses(and probally horse-faced) mouth itself, "$28/hour"....what a whinny little self rightous A-hole.
So, in this "you wasted your life" scenario your still makeing 3X more than the idiots who didn't do it. Yeah, if that is worst case scenario, sign me up! WHAAAA....my mommy can't wipe my bum with $100 bills, we have to settle for singles....why did God do this to me.... :P


Wow. This board is so hard to navigate.  I'm Angel from http://butidideverythingrightorsoithought.blogspot.com and I saw that I have been getting traffic from this site.  I snuck a peak and I wanted to make a correction.  Both Hardknocks (my co-blogger) and I went to first tier schools. She went to a T14 and I went to a T30.  We are having an extremely difficult time finding work and I formerly worked for BigLaw and I've been out 10 years.  You guys have no clue what it's like in the legal industry. It's been bad since I graduated. Worst case scenario, you work for a poo law small firm for a pittance (or today.. you are unemployed and homeless).  Best case scenario, you get a BigLaw job and your tossed out in 3 to 5 years.  Then you're stuck earning pennies in nonprofit. There is no long term, profitable option.  So, do what you want. But think of me when you're doing temp doc review for $28/hour.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 16, 2010, 06:20:45 AM
Guy, I've been a "temp worker" in the past...

In the legal industry?
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: IAmMultipleBooks on April 16, 2010, 07:01:12 AM
Wow. This board is so hard to navigate.  I'm Angel from http://butidideverythingrightorsoithought.blogspot.com and I saw that I have been getting traffic from this site.  I snuck a peak and I wanted to make a correction.  Both Hardknocks (my co-blogger) and I went to first tier schools. She went to a T14 and I went to a T30.  We are having an extremely difficult time finding work and I formerly worked for BigLaw and I've been out 10 years.  You guys have no clue what it's like in the legal industry. It's been bad since I graduated. Worst case scenario, you work for a poo law small firm for a pittance (or today.. you are unemployed and homeless).  Best case scenario, you get a BigLaw job and your tossed out in 3 to 5 years.  Then you're stuck earning pennies in nonprofit. There is no long term, profitable option.  So, do what you want. But think of me when you're doing temp doc review for $28/hour.

Sorry for the mistake. You are doing a great service for young Americans. I don't understand the nastiness here whenever anyone tries to say the truth.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: TheCause on April 16, 2010, 09:46:16 AM
All of these discussions are really interesting to me.  We have a few T3-T4 defenders who want people to know that there are opportunities out there and that law school isn't a waste of money and time.

But the decision is simply a risk/reward analysis.  Employment statistics in T2 schools are horrible right now, and I'm sure they are even worse at T3-T4 schools.  Maybe 100,000 of debt was a reasonable risk when you had a 25% chance of making 100,000+ a year.

I was an above average law student.  
160 LSAT, went to a school ranked between 60-90, Ranked 50/160,  law review board member.
I came to law school hoping to work for a medium law firm.  I eventually wanted to work in health law.

Well now I'm fortunate enough to have a job making 60,000 in the public sector because I worked my tail off during my summer internships (I didn't get any offers to intern for firms I was interested in)

So even though I'm surviving, I'm not doing what I want to do.  Even though I wasn't awesome student, I'm still probably in the top third of candidates out there for jobs.  

The risk of getting paid less than 50,000 after graduation is very high.
The risk of working in a less-than-ideal job is even higher.

So I would encourage people to go to law school, but only if you have good surrounding circumstances.  Savings, family connections, high LSAT score, full scholarships, legal experience, etc.

It used to be an okay idea to go to any respectable law school and take on a ton of debt... those days are over.


Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: IAmMultipleBooks on April 16, 2010, 11:13:52 AM
It is good you pointed pointed this out to everybody. I had no idea a J.D. did not guarantee me 100k a year job and your telling me I might even have to some document review, like read documents (I never in a million years as a lawyer thought I would have to read documents, that is outrageous!!!. On top of this reading that I will have to do I might make only $28/hour?  That sounds awful oh my god the sheer terror of it all. I thought when you graduated law school law partners were waiting on the stage at graduation with contracts in hand and I just picked the one that would pay be exorbitant amounts of money to do nothing.  Then I could go out and tell everybody I was a lawyer and literally never do anything, unless of course it really interested in me then I might put a few hours of time in, until of course those documents came in.  DOCUMENT REVIEW OH MY GOD that does not sound fun. I am dropping out immediately I had no idea I would actually have to put in work to find a job or that if someone is paying me $28/hr or 224 a day they would want me to something for it and maybe even something I don't like.

I will get a degree in some filed that guarantees me a 100k a year job and does not require me to do anything I don't want to do.  I just tried to google in high-paying ridiculous easy glamorous job and it doesn't look like it exists. Obviously, you have the answer to where I can find that so please let me know. If you do find it I will drop out immediately I would love to be paid outrageous amounts of money to do nothing it would be Fing awesome!

I don't think you really understand what DocReview is. You are making light of a situation where people bust their asses for years while paying tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars just to work 14 hour days yielding between $30k and 60k a year, all on a TEMPORARY basis. Keep listening to the talk radio when you really should be listening to those who know what the heck they're talking about.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: CJScalia on April 16, 2010, 10:08:12 PM
Yeah, unlike law students, people with Mongolian Lit degrees are making millions right now. They're the new investment bankers, just wait and see!

Also, if your friends at a T14 school has problems finding any job right now, they are in fact idiots. They might not be able to find the job they are looking for, but they can sure as hell find some job.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: CJScalia on April 16, 2010, 10:17:13 PM
Yeah, unlike law students, people with Mongolian Lit degrees are making millions right now. They're the new investment bankers, just wait and see!

Also, if your friends at a T14 school has problems finding any job right now, they are in fact idiots. They might not be able to find the job they are looking for, but they can sure as hell find some job.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: IAmMultipleBooks on April 16, 2010, 10:47:05 PM
I have done it for Simon & Schuster reading every single book contract they ever had in a basement with 15 other people making $20.00 an hour for a temp agency and yea it sucked! I am not arguing that DOC review is what people want to do, but you have to make a living that is life. I was happy with $20.00 an hour and making 28.00 is even better. Believe or not right now a lot of people are making 0 an hour and there is a lot of people making near minimum wage and 28.00/hr is nowhere near that.  

You are not special for a getting a J.D. and if you think you are then you are going to be disappointed. A law degree, M.D., MBA, whatever does not make you special. School is NOTHING like the real world that is my point, that is all I am trying to say and I think a lot of people maybe you are in this group went straight from undergrad to law school and did not realize there are a million other people with degrees. Any job that is really cool is really competitive and they don't hand them out and you have pay your dues. Even if you pay your dues, do well in school and do everything right you might not end up in your ideal situation. Go walk outside your house and ask 100 people if they are completely satisfied with their job or if they even have one.

To half the people on this board wake the f*ck up life is hard, believe or not you still have to pay bills deal with landlords pay for meals even if you don't go to law school. The real world affects everybody not just those with a J.D.

Yes law school is a massive investment and it might not work out it is something to consider. Honestly, if your main goal is to have money and not bust your ass as you stated go work as a waiter right out of high school, or be a bank teller, or cashier at a hardware store and you will incur no educational debt and you won't have to work that hard.  You will have a steady paycheck and if you work at a bank for 5 or 6 years out of high high school you probably get promoted and at 24 have a decent job and no debt. I know plenty of people that did that or worked in construction and are doing well.   

Education is something you do if you want to do it. Nobody has a gun to your head saying go to law school it is a choice and you should do it if you WANT to be a lawyer, nobody is forcing you to go. So stop female dog*ng about your choice.



You're right. It doesn't make you special. It probably won't even get you a salary. It might not get you a job. Hell, it might even look BAD on your resume (especially if you go to Cooley, Cardozo, Brooklyn, NYLS, or other TTTs). That's my point. Think hard.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: IAmMultipleBooks on April 16, 2010, 10:49:01 PM
Also, if your friends at a T14 school has problems finding any job right now, they are in fact idiots. They might not be able to find the job they are looking for, but they can sure as hell find some job.

Some job, yeah sure. As research assistants or in toilet law.

Also, I don't think that you should be calling anyone an "idiot" after admitting on a public forum that you used cocaine with a professor.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 16, 2010, 11:02:21 PM
Your still dumb enough to think that a "bad" school on a resume make you  look worse than no school, even when it gets you a license?  Retard. Mind to explain how?

[/quote]

You're right. It doesn't make you special. It probably won't even get you a salary. It might not get you a job. Hell, it might even look BAD on your resume (especially if you go to Cooley, Cardozo, Brooklyn, NYLS, or other TTTs). That's my point. Think hard.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: CJScalia on April 16, 2010, 11:14:54 PM
Some job, yeah sure. As research assistants or in toilet law.

bull. Granted, if you're at the bottom of the ranking, you'll probably be *&^% out of luck, but anyone with half a brain can get a decent job out of a T14 school. If your only definition of a decent job is Wachtell or Cravath, then yeah, you're *&^% out of luck.

Quote
Also, I don't think that you should be calling anyone an "idiot" after admitting on a public forum that you used cocaine with a professor.

So what? There isn't a single person on this forum that has any idea 1) who I am 2) what school I go to and 3) that would give a @#!* even if they did know.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 16, 2010, 11:17:40 PM
and if you go to community college before transfering to a 4year univeristy in undergrad, or take a few online classes, the devil himself will rape your soul....... ::)
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: Jemma on April 17, 2010, 11:17:11 AM
I do not even start to school until August and I already have a job waiting for me and other offers and I didn't even apply for any.  Maybe you just aren't impressive enough.  My offers come from just placing myself in the right circles.  And I'm a poor country girl, so it was my networking that paid off.  It didn't come from being related to the right people or from my parents friends.  Network more.  There are jobs.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: IAmMultipleBooks on April 17, 2010, 12:24:43 PM
I do not even start to school until August and I already have a job waiting for me and other offers and I didn't even apply for any.  Maybe you just aren't impressive enough.  My offers come from just placing myself in the right circles.  And I'm a poor country girl, so it was my networking that paid off.  It didn't come from being related to the right people or from my parents friends.  Network more.  There are jobs.

You have permanent job offers to work as an attorney even though you have yet to "start to school?" Congratulations if true, but I am very skeptical. Part-time and summer employment is not what we are talking about in this thread.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: PSUDSL08 on April 17, 2010, 06:40:54 PM
A common theme in threads like these are for prospective and current students to attack any 3L/recent graduate who somehow posts negative or pessimistic viewpoints about entering the field of law. It's possible that a good chunk of the "don't go to law school" crowd did not distinguish themselves amongst the rest of job seekers as great students and effective networkers. That being said, it might be worthwhile for some prospective and current students to take in some of the criticism without being so defensive about their chosen career paths.

I am not your typical disgruntled graduate, as I am currently working in my dream job. I started off at a T4 school and graduated in 2008 from a T2 school. I'm currently a prosecutor in a mid-sized city that is over-saturated with lawyers (top ten in nation for lawyers per capita). I make $40K per year, have $115K in student loan debt with the opportunity to have that debt forgiven in nine years. I was fully prepared for this reality as my dad is a prosecutor who had to pay his dues before seeing a significant salary increase. Many of the people I went to school with were not.

The prospects for employment in my city are atrocious across the board. Big firms have drastically reduced their summer associate programs. A majority of Biglaw 3L's from 2009 who were offered positions are now having their start dates delayed, and have been urged by their hiring firms to seek out other positions.  Back in October of 2009, one large firm cut its document review staff from 140 attorneys down to approximately 30. The small and mid-sized firms who have openings are seeking attorneys with a minimum of three to five years of experience. Who would you hire - the top 10% 3L with law review who is a work in progress or the top 10% guy with five years of experience who can hit the ground running?

Low paying government positions are increasingly hard to come by. There is little to no turnover in the DA's/PD's office. It's hard to bolt for greener pastures when there's nothing but scorched earth in sight. When a position does open up, either office can pick and choose amongst a multitude of candidates with impressive qualifications (top 5-10%, law review, courtroom experience). Judicial law clerks who would normally leave after one year of service are now staying aboard for their second and third years.
I have a good number of friends who are doing quite well, but they either had great qualifications or had a job lined up through family/close friends. Many are riding it out in clerkships or have sought out non-legal work they could have obtained without wasting three years of their lives and over $100K (event planner, insurance salesman, etc).

The JD does not open up as many doors as it did for the WWII and baby boomer generations. The older attorneys who started their own firms have attorney numbers in the 15000-40000 range. The attorney numbers for my graduating class is well into the 210,000 range. Nonetheless, when you tell the average person you're going to law school, it's common for them to "ooh and ahh" and otherwise stroke your ego...all the while assuming you're going to be rich and successful. The numbers tell a vastly different story.

It's very easy to sit back as a prospective student and say "I won't let this happen to me" or "things will be fine once the economy rebounds." And I'm sure many of you will do just fine. But there are a good number of people who will end up regretting their decision in 2013. Just do your homework before you decide to take the plunge.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 17, 2010, 06:45:16 PM
ok, I can see through this like its a glass window. Other hicks offer to let you represent them? That's great but not the 100K jobs these guys are talking about. Plus I see hotassed undergrad all the time getting talked to by lawyers with their fingers behind their back, have fun monicka... :-*

I do not even start to school until August and I already have a job waiting for me and other offers and I didn't even apply for any.  Maybe you just aren't impressive enough.  My offers come from just placing myself in the right circles.  And I'm a poor country girl, so it was my networking that paid off.  It didn't come from being related to the right people or from my parents friends.  Network more.  There are jobs.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: TheCause on April 17, 2010, 07:32:46 PM
That's a good post from PSUDSL08.

All of you law school defenders should read that post a couple times, then take a breath, and then decide whether you want to respond.

No one here is saying that some students should not be allowed to go to law school.  But there are some posters on this board who are offering an honest perspective.  My school's career services office (I graduated in December) just told me that only 39% of current 3Ls have something lined up.  Graduation is in 3 weeks!   And this is info from a strong T2 school that is well respected in the region. 

Can members of classes '10-'14 succeed?  Absolutely.
Does the data in the US news rankings accurately reflect your chances?  Absolutely not.

My advice to students planning on entering law school this fall: (Particularly students without scholarships)
Try hard to get a full-time job before August, and think about working for a few years before you go for the JD. 
Or go to pharmacy school if you can get in. 
 
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 17, 2010, 08:23:34 PM
How is being a pharmacist better than a lawyer? ???

That's a good post from PSUDSL08.

All of you law school defenders should read that post a couple times, then take a breath, and then decide whether you want to respond.

No one here is saying that some students should not be allowed to go to law school.  But there are some posters on this board who are offering an honest perspective.  My school's career services office (I graduated in December) just told me that only 39% of current 3Ls have something lined up.  Graduation is in 3 weeks!   And this is info from a strong T2 school that is well respected in the region. 

Can members of classes '10-'14 succeed?  Absolutely.
Does the data in the US news rankings accurately reflect your chances?  Absolutely not.

My advice to students planning on entering law school this fall: (Particularly students without scholarships)
Try hard to get a full-time job before August, and think about working for a few years before you go for the JD. 
Or go to pharmacy school if you can get in. 
 
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: CJScalia on April 17, 2010, 08:36:03 PM
I do not even start to school until August and I already have a job waiting for me and other offers and I didn't even apply for any.

And on today's episode of "Stories Nobody Believes In", we have Jemma!

Quote
Maybe you just aren't impressive enough.  My offers come from just placing myself in the right circles.  And I'm a poor country girl, so it was my networking that paid off.  It didn't come from being related to the right people or from my parents friends.  Network more.  There are jobs.

You do understand that there are people here who are already in law school, and even already lawyers, so we can pretty easily call you out on your bull, right?

Mind you, if your daddy has a 3 lawyer office down the street, I'm sure he can give you a job, but that's not what we're generally talking about.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: TheCause on April 17, 2010, 11:35:47 PM
How is being a pharmacist better than a lawyer? ???


I don't think it is.  But the job prospects are much better right now.  My cousin just graduated from pharmacy school and his starting salary at a grocery store pharmacy was $102,000.  He works four ten-hour shifts and that's it.  Not bad at all.
I think I'd die of boredom, but still.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: Jemma on April 18, 2010, 10:31:04 AM
I didn't say it was a permanent job.  It is a summer position.   If there are summer positions available, does that not indicate there are jobs in general.  I'm also not saying that every person who goes to law school will get a job.  I was saying that perhaps you didn't network enough. 

Also, if it's so unbelievable that I have a summer job before beginning school, I guess that speaks pretty well for me.  What is so difficult to believe about it, really?
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 18, 2010, 10:51:38 AM
OMG what an idiot! That is not what these guys mean by work, do you even read at all before you post? Yes, there is work out there. Yes, your gig will help with experience on a resume, but it is NOT even close to what they mean by "real" work.

I didn't say it was a permanent job.  It is a summer position.   If there are summer positions available, does that not indicate there are jobs in general.  I'm also not saying that every person who goes to law school will get a job.  I was saying that perhaps you didn't network enough. 

Also, if it's so unbelievable that I have a summer job before beginning school, I guess that speaks pretty well for me.  What is so difficult to believe about it, really?
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: no name on April 18, 2010, 11:36:58 AM
I'm not going to delete your post, but I think you exaggerate just a bit.

It really isn't exaggerated.  Going to a law school that's not one of absolute best is a bad idea right now.  Unless you don't pay for any of it, or you have family or friends who'll give you a job. 

Going to T2 and below school with 100K+ of expected debt is not smart, simple as that.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: charlow on April 18, 2010, 11:45:05 AM
I hope I can provide a different perspective.  I am a small business owner.  I have worked my butt off to get the business to a point where it can run pretty much on it's own with minimal oversight. 

Why don't you unemployed law school grads hang your own shingle?  Create a job.  Stop looking for someone else to take care of you. 
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: therewillbeblood on April 18, 2010, 12:59:00 PM
I hope I can provide a different perspective.  I am a small business owner.  I have worked my butt off to get the business to a point where it can run pretty much on it's own with minimal oversight. 

Why don't you unemployed law school grads hang your own shingle?  Create a job.  Stop looking for someone else to take care of you. 

I hope I can offer a different perspective too.  I am a law school graduate.  I have a job.  It's a fairly well-paying job, not Biglaw but enough to pay my loans off, live on, and still save a fair amount of money per month.  I am not looking for someone to take care of me. 

Yet I will tell all of you law is a TERRIBLE idea in terms of job security for 80-90% of the people entering law school right now.  You have no idea how bad it is until you're put in the position of looking for a job afterwards. Plus if you're right out of law school you are not really qualified to practice law.  You don't have the necessary skills to do anything practical.


Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: nealric on April 18, 2010, 01:13:39 PM
Quote
It really isn't exaggerated.  Going to a law school that's not one of absolute best is a bad idea right now.  Unless you don't pay for any of it, or you have family or friends who'll give you a job.

Going to T2 and below school with 100K+ of expected debt is not smart, simple as that. 

The OP is a T14 3L, as am I. It's bad, but not for everyone. Myself and plenty of my friends have something lined up.

As for T2s, I am not qualified to opine, but I do hear it is horrendous.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: IAmMultipleBooks on April 18, 2010, 02:14:20 PM
Quote
It really isn't exaggerated.  Going to a law school that's not one of absolute best is a bad idea right now.  Unless you don't pay for any of it, or you have family or friends who'll give you a job.

Going to T2 and below school with 100K+ of expected debt is not smart, simple as that. 

The OP is a T14 3L, as am I. It's bad, but not for everyone. Myself and plenty of my friends have something lined up.

As for T2s, I am not qualified to opine, but I do hear it is horrendous.


Hold it there: no one said it was a bad investment for everyone at T14s. If you think I exaggerated, please tell these people where I exaggerated. Obviously there are people in T14s who, because of either exceptional grades or because of a good family, get jobs. The vast majority of people I know do not have full-time employment lined up. Also, while not in the top 10%, I am a good student, was on the Dean's List, have good journal experience, have a great resume with attractive stuff from even my pre-law years. For God's sake, it's even hell at Harvard.

You think I'm going to let these law schools bilk even MORE money from my fellow men and women? Why should I? So I can feel better about myself? No, that's dishonest.

Are you also going to tell me that T14 law schools are NOT rushing to give unemployed students research and library assistant positions so that the employment figure looks good for US News? Come on now.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: no name on April 18, 2010, 04:12:09 PM
Quote
It really isn't exaggerated.  Going to a law school that's not one of absolute best is a bad idea right now.  Unless you don't pay for any of it, or you have family or friends who'll give you a job.

Going to T2 and below school with 100K+ of expected debt is not smart, simple as that. 

The OP is a T14 3L, as am I. It's bad, but not for everyone. Myself and plenty of my friends have something lined up.

As for T2s, I am not qualified to opine, but I do hear it is horrendous.

I'm at T25 but I really can't imagine that we're doing much better than T2 folks.  And surely not EVERYONE is struggling to find a job, but MAJORITY of Class of '10.  There surely must be better ways to invest 150K than go to law school no?
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 18, 2010, 04:19:58 PM
If you believe that, why waste the last year? Quit.

Quote
It really isn't exaggerated.  Going to a law school that's not one of absolute best is a bad idea right now.  Unless you don't pay for any of it, or you have family or friends who'll give you a job.

Going to T2 and below school with 100K+ of expected debt is not smart, simple as that. 

The OP is a T14 3L, as am I. It's bad, but not for everyone. Myself and plenty of my friends have something lined up.

As for T2s, I am not qualified to opine, but I do hear it is horrendous.

I'm at T25 but I really can't imagine that we're doing much better than T2 folks.  And surely not EVERYONE is struggling to find a job, but MAJORITY of Class of '10.  There surely must be better ways to invest 150K than go to law school no?
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: no name on April 18, 2010, 04:23:32 PM
What?  I'm graduating in less than a month.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 18, 2010, 04:26:25 PM
good, and why didn't you quit last term when it was equally bad?

quote author=no name link=topic=4023233.msg5377001#msg5377001 date=1271629412]
What?  I'm graduating in less than a month.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 18, 2010, 04:29:54 PM
Here is the big easy to understand part. Babies on this board bittch that they should make $160K first year, thats your tuition. If it takes you longer, thats ok too. If you would have made $40,000 as an office worker with your basicly BA(vs probally half that without it in a factory somewhere) then how is it bad to double that? It takes awhile to pay off, but even if you "fail" and make only $50K or so the first few years, who gives a *&^%?

Even more to the point, who cares if you make $20K, student loans disappear as long your not a coward and use student loan forgivness, grow a pair!
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: no name on April 18, 2010, 04:36:17 PM
bigs, I've always wanted to be a lawyer and I've really enjoyed studying law.  I also think I would love working as a lawyer, hence why I was willing to invest that kind of money into it.  The question is what do I do now that I am a lawyer.  True the economy will pick up, things will get better, but to rely on that is easier said than done.  And it's easier for someone who does have a job lined up.

Sir :)=, what part of "law grads aren't complaining because of lack of 160K jobs, they're complaining because there are no jobs PERIOD", don't you understand?  You talk about a 50K jobs as if they're all over the place out there, they aren't.  

And please tell me you're joking about dropping out last semester or even last year?  I honestly refuse to believe that someone who's about to graduate law school (?) actually thinks that's a reasonable solution.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 18, 2010, 04:41:53 PM
Hey Fetus(undergrad not yet "born") No shitt I don't want people to quit last term, I don't want them to quit first term. Read all my posts if you need proof, people just act like its not worth it yet keep walking forward. They are hypocrits. Plain and simple.

As for you, go for it. Don't let other try to make slip on their pile of tears. Yes, jobs are "everywhere" To get rid of your student debt anyways. Join the military, join the PeaceCorps, Americorps,etc. Yeah you'll make less than the $160K that people think they deserve, but so the fuckk what? Get rid of the debt, get the experience and when the opportunity comes you'll be ready for it, vs the guy going "I could've done it, but didn't think it was worth it"....



bigs, I've always wanted to be a lawyer and I've really enjoyed studying law.  I also think I would love working as a lawyer, hence why I was willing to invest that kind of money into it.  The question is what do I do now that I am a lawyer.  True the economy will pick up, things will get better, but to rely on that is easier said than done.  And it's easier for someone who does have a job lined up.

Sir :)=, what part of "law grads aren't complaining because of lack of 160K jobs, they're complaining because there are no jobs PERIOD", don't you understand?  You talk about a 50K jobs as if they're all over the place out there, they aren't.  

And please tell me you're joking about dropping out last semester or even last year?  I honestly refuse to believe that someone who's about to graduate law school (?) actually thinks that's a reasonable solution.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: no name on April 18, 2010, 04:54:56 PM
I seriously don't even know what you're talking about, it seems you have some reading comprehension issues.  You most certainly have some attitude issues.

I'm not crying and I don't advocate anyone dropping out of law school, first or last semester.  I just wanted to give my opinion to people who are about to commit to law school.  It's a serious life choice and people should know what it's really like out there.  The situation is dire out there, for LEGAL JOBS.  No *&^% you can join the Army.  You can do that without law school and save a bunch of money.  But don't for a second think that someone will want to hire you after you just spent three years after law school doing nothing law-related.  How is that a good investment?

And I don't even understand why you're being so angry and obnoxious about it. 
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: nealric on April 18, 2010, 05:21:53 PM
This thread is chock full of:
(http://drkatesview.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/straw_man.jpg)
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 18, 2010, 05:34:24 PM
You can't seriously be that retarded? WOW!!!!!!!! :o

How in your mind is JAG the same as infantry? How is a pvt the same as a captain? How is representing people in court not law related, fetus or not, you're an idiot.

I seriously don't even know what you're talking about, it seems you have some reading comprehension issues.  You most certainly have some attitude issues.

I'm not crying and I don't advocate anyone dropping out of law school, first or last semester.  I just wanted to give my opinion to people who are about to commit to law school.  It's a serious life choice and people should know what it's really like out there.  The situation is dire out there, for LEGAL JOBS.  No poo you can join the Army.  You can do that without law school and save a bunch of money.  But don't for a second think that someone will want to hire you after you just spent three years after law school doing nothing law-related.  How is that a good investment?

And I don't even understand why you're being so angry and obnoxious about it. 
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cantdecide2010 on April 18, 2010, 08:34:51 PM
well if you want to practice law, what would you suggest doing? 
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 18, 2010, 08:46:43 PM
go to lawschool. The point of this forum. Pay no attention to the flunkees and trolls.

quote author=cantdecide2010 link=topic=4023233.msg5377033#msg5377033 date=1271644491]
well if you want to practice law, what would you suggest doing? 
[/quote]
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 18, 2010, 09:14:03 PM
well if you want to practice law, what would you suggest doing? 

I would first consider whether it's possible to do what you want to do and make a living off of it.

Also, I would ask myself why I wanted to practice law, and see if what I envisioned matched up with reality.

Law school's a good decision for some.  For others, not so much. 
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 18, 2010, 09:44:51 PM
Nowhere in the original post does the OP say that law school will ruin your life or that the schools are out to get you.  All she said was that the job market is not good even for graduates of top schools and that people should be wary, and that schools are trying to keep their employment statistics up.  There's nothing wrong with providing people with a word of caution.  If you don't need the message, then just ignore it.

Also, the bar analogy isn't at all applicable because the bartender doesn't have much control over whether or not you get laid at the end of the night.  Where you go to law school has some effect on how well you fare, even if it's not 100% determinative.

I have the inside view from a T14. MOST of my fellow graduating 3Ls do not have job offers. ANY offers. This is not simply a lack of BigLaw jobs but a structural problem in the legal community in general. Don't be fooled into thinking, "Well, I never wanted to be making $160k working at a stifling corporate law firm anyway." The job market is pure crap across the board. There is stunningly high unemployment at these elite schools.

However, the school is rehiring many of us to work at the library or in part-time research assistant positions so that we do not drag down the employment rate.

You are a fool if you think law school is a decent place to "ride out the recession."

Even Harvard Law grads are having problems finding jobs. So if the T14 grads are in danger, then what about the rest of the schools (from first tier to TTT to fourth tier)?

I hope this post is not deleted. It could save people hundreds of thousands of dollars. If you got into a law school and paid a deposit, you must still think about what I am saying and make a wise decision.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 18, 2010, 10:04:08 PM
That is just what gets me is people just say these things like it only applies to law school. I am pretty sure every type of school tries to manipulate their stats as best they can.

But it's a law school discussion forum.  It would be a strange thing if the focus of the discussion was not on law school, wouldn't it?  I haven't heard anyone say anything to the effect of, "law school is more of a scam than anything else."
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cantdecide2010 on April 18, 2010, 10:12:28 PM
I want to be a lawyer, my mother was a lawyer and I've worked as a teacher and I enjoyed my internships in law much more, you can't take the bar without having gone to law school so the Do NOT go to law school trolls are pointless.  For those going to law school because they have nothing else to do or a worthless UG degree i understand, but for those who have a strong desire to become a lawyer, there isn't any other way to pursue that goal (unless you want to be a paralegal).
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: CJScalia on April 18, 2010, 10:16:30 PM
I didn't say it was a permanent job.  It is a summer position.   If there are summer positions available, does that not indicate there are jobs in general.  I'm also not saying that every person who goes to law school will get a job.  I was saying that perhaps you didn't network enough.


Again, unless there's some nepotism at work here, I still don't believe you. I've sort of explained in detail below why I don't believe you. Not that I really give a rats ass, even assuming you are telling the truth, that would simply mean you've found a lawyer/law firm that should be committed to some psychiatric facility.

Quote
Also, if it's so unbelievable that I have a summer job before beginning school, I guess that speaks pretty well for me.  What is so difficult to believe about it, really?

Why would that speak well about you? You have no idea how well or bad you're going to do in law school, and neither does that employer. It speaks nothing about you, but it speaks extremely poorly about that employer who's willing to hand out a job to someone that for all he knows could be expelled from school, or fail half his exams before the time comes.

Again, the reason I replied the way I did is that I've simply never, ever, heard about any legal employer making an offer to someone who hasn't even started law school, that's simply beyond ridiculous.

Again, if you're offered a job at your fathers office or your uncle's or something like that, yeah, of course they're going to give you a job. But if you're telling me you sent an application to random law firms and pretty much said "Hey, I'm gonna go to law school, got a job for me?" and they actually said yes, then yeah, there's something seriously wrong.

I'm still leaning towards not believing you though. Mainly considering just how incredibly far away this is from the experiences of every currently in law school or the legal business. It's literally unheard of.

you can't take the bar without having gone to law school so the Do NOT go to law school trolls are pointless. 

Well, this is in fact not true. Several jurisdictions allow you to sit for the bar without actually going to law school. And yes, that includes the two most "important" states; California and New York. Of the top of my head I can also think of Washington and Virginia that allows you to take the bar without going to law school. I know there are other states too, but I'm just too damn lazy to google it.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 18, 2010, 10:18:03 PM
I want to be a lawyer, my mother was a lawyer and I've worked as a teacher and I enjoyed my internships in law much more, you can't take the bar without having gone to law school so the Do NOT go to law school trolls are pointless.  For those going to law school because they have nothing else to do or a worthless UG degree i understand, but for those who have a strong desire to become a lawyer, there isn't any other way to pursue that goal (unless you want to be a paralegal).

In that case, I would recommend making conservative financial decisions.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cantdecide2010 on April 18, 2010, 10:19:39 PM
Both schools im considering would be at 10k / year
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 18, 2010, 10:22:07 PM
If there are summer positions available, does that not indicate there are jobs in general.  

No, it does not.  Tell me, what does the summer position pay?

Both schools im considering would be at 10k / year

I saw your post in the other thread.  I can't really help out with that particular decision since I don't know either of those schools or the market particularly well, but I don't think that $10k/year is a particularly unreasonable tuition (assuming you can hold on to your scholarship; you should consider what your total debt will look like if you lose it).  If you live frugally, you should be able to get out of school without owing too crazy an amount of money.  Doesn't sound like you're on your way to the $200k debt load a lot of people take on.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 18, 2010, 10:44:57 PM
At $10K a year I can only assume you mean CBE schools on the 4 year plan.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: IAmMultipleBooks on April 19, 2010, 07:47:56 PM
from http://esqnever.blogspot.com/2010/04/responsible-0l.html

"During my 1L year, I remember professors talking to us about what awaits us when we become associates in large firms - as if landing such positions was a given. One legal writing professors even urged us to be kind to our secretaries because they hold more power than they're given credit. Who would have thought that they "hold more power" than I do because they're actually gainfully employed, and I'd be lucky to get a sales position at Radio Shack.

Like the friends of an entranced teenage girl, however, the scam-bloggers can't get through to the infatuated party. "It's not true!", the 0L's cry. "They wouldn't lie to us!", they protest. No, it's us - the "losers" - who are the enemy and just out to sully the good name of these fine institutions of academic excellence because we couldn't hack it.

Sadly, when their three years are up, they finally are able to recognize the truth - once it's too late. Just like the girl who spurned her friends' counsel and has learned that "prince charming" has been dating three other girls and is indifferent to her feelings, the new law school graduates are cast out of their delusion only to realize they'd been conned by some of the most duplicitous characters in higher education."

Read more at http://esqnever.blogspot.com/ (just one of many law school scam busting blogs).
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: nealric on April 20, 2010, 08:33:01 AM
Quote
Hold it there: no one said it was a bad investment for everyone at T14s. If you think I exaggerated, please tell these people where I exaggerated. Obviously there are people in T14s who, because of either exceptional grades or because of a good family, get jobs

This is really a matter of opinion, so I can't really prove anything one way or another. However, I just think that your characterization of situation is generally worse than it really is. While many of my friends here at GULC missed out on biglaw due to the economy, almost everyone I know has something reasonably good lined up post graduation- or are at least getting plenty of interviews. Plenty of people (at least 3Ls) got biglaw despite the economy with good, but not spectacular grades and no particular family ties (myself included). I agree that it's bad, just not armageddon.

I also disagree with the characterization of law school as a "Scam" in general. It may be a bad deal for some, but there's no malice going on. I do agree that for-profit law schools are dangerously close to that line though.

Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: TheCause on April 20, 2010, 02:48:58 PM
Well I dropped out of law school and was enrolling in the MBA program, but when I asked the MBA admissions dean at my school for a guarantee that I would be paid 100k at graduation and get a sweet corner office she said she couldn't guarantee it?  I guess if you get an M.B.A. you also have to look for a job at graduation and not everybody becomes a C.E.O right when they graduate and some even have a hard time finding a job so I hear.

Well although I am not in law school anymore, at least I have my B.A. and paralegal certificate and that at least guarantees me a job as a paralegal right? However, I seem to remember when I graduated with that two years ago it took me 2 months to find a job and the first one I got did not pay me 6 figures and they made me do actual work and some of the things they made me do I did nto enjoy, can you believe it! I remember at times feeling underpaid and sometimes like I would rather be doing something else than working. Can you believe that I actually had a job where I felt I was not making enough money and I didn't love every single second of it!?!?

I know everyone one that doesn't have a J.D. sits around saying how much they love their job and that they are making way to much money. I have never heard anyone other than lawyers complaint about their job, so at least I am glad I am going not down the J.D. path I would hate to risk feeling that I was underpaid and not getting amazing assignments all the time and having the flexibility to just say I don't want to deal with something that is inconvenient or god forbid not everything handed to me. Thank god for this great economy and employers handing out sweet, easy, and high-paying jobs to people as long as they don't get a J.D. I hear it is way to better drop out of school in about 8th grade work for McDonald's for a few years then show up and get a 6 figure salary.



Funny Guy, Bigs.

If I could, I would change the name of this thread to "Don't go into a lot of debt to go to law school right now"

You are right that a job is hardly ever "guaranteed,"  but law school is particularly risky right now.  Some people will get a return on their investment, but the statistical likelihood is a lot lower now than it was three or four years ago.  One medium/large firm in my region extended full-time offers to all of it's six summer associates in 2008.  In 2009 they only offered one a job, and this year they are only taking on two summer associates and the firm informed them that an offer after graduation was unlikely.
That's just one example, but I hear stories like that all the time. 

An MBA is a totally different story.  In some fields, an M.B.A. isn't much more valuable than a Business Bachelors Degree.  But there is a huge difference between a JD and an MBA:  An MBA really only takes a year, and tuition at a bottom-level school is usually very low in comparison.  I know of one quality university that offers an MBA for 12,000. (Three trimesters, one year, 40 Credits)  The cheapest law schools charge 12,000 (in-state) each year for three years.  So if you are going to compare a JD to an MBA you have to take into account the fact that the JD costs at least three times as much.  Some people spend 90-120k on law school tuition.  I don't know of any MBA program that even comes close to that.

I made the decision to go to my law school based on the information that over 90% of the students had jobs within 9 months after graduation, and 55% of graduates found jobs at law firms.  I assumed that if I could get in the top third or quarter of my class, then I would be able to get a job in a law firm. I'm working in the public sector now, and most of the firms respond to my resume with: "A resume like yours would have gotten you a pretty good job three years ago."
 
Your risk analysis has to be a lot different now, and that's what I'm trying to tell 0Ls.   

 


Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 20, 2010, 03:12:15 PM
It's easy to change your username, you probally could change it to that if you wanted. Check out your profile to find out how or ask a moderator if needed.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: IAmMultipleBooks on April 20, 2010, 04:20:28 PM
Quote
Hold it there: no one said it was a bad investment for everyone at T14s. If you think I exaggerated, please tell these people where I exaggerated. Obviously there are people in T14s who, because of either exceptional grades or because of a good family, get jobs

This is really a matter of opinion, so I can't really prove anything one way or another. However, I just think that your characterization of situation is generally worse than it really is. While many of my friends here at GULC missed out on biglaw due to the economy, almost everyone I know has something reasonably good lined up post graduation- or are at least getting plenty of interviews. Plenty of people (at least 3Ls) got biglaw despite the economy with good, but not spectacular grades and no particular family ties (myself included). I agree that it's bad, just not armageddon.

I also disagree with the characterization of law school as a "Scam" in general. It may be a bad deal for some, but there's no malice going on. I do agree that for-profit law schools are dangerously close to that line though.



My characterization is accurate. If you calculate expected returns using the phony law school statistics, you will probably find law school to be a good investment. If you calculate the expected returns using the true statistics, you will probably find law school to be a bad investment. My personal opinion is that law school is a bad investment unless you have exceptional grades, are well-connected, or go to HYS (Harvard, Yale, or Stanford). YOU might have achieved a great return on your investment with average or slightly-above average grades and coming from a working class household. That's good, and I applaud you for it. But decisions about whether to go to law school should be made with a cool head.

The Wall Street Journal blog wrote yesterday that law school exhibits similar characteristics of the housing boom (http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2010/04/19/how-legal-education-today-is-like-sub-prime-mortgage-market-in-2006/). Although I don't see law school tuition crashing soon, I do know that law school applicants are generally not making their decisions with enough knowledge of the legal profession. Law schools are generally pretty expensive. Do you know that most TTTs charge around the same price as T14s?

That's why I'm here telling the 0Ls not to believe the numbers put out by the law schools. Also, you should understand that many people are too embarrassed to admit they don't have jobs. It's not something people like to talk about, particularly when you form part of a culture that stigmatizes poverty, unemployment, and underemployment.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: lawrookie on April 20, 2010, 04:25:28 PM
Lawschool is the easiest thing that I have ever done in my entire life. What the hell are you talking about?
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: IAmMultipleBooks on April 20, 2010, 05:26:33 PM
Lawschool is the easiest thing that I have ever done in my entire life. What the hell are you talking about?

I never said it was difficult.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: lawrookie on April 20, 2010, 07:37:49 PM
finals were over a week ago. Besides, like I had said in addition to midterms I had taken the actual previous years finals and then read the grading scale to see how I did on it. As for these ones, honestly its just meeting the elements and knowing what constitutes what. How hard is that? You just read a few chapters each night and take notes during the semester, stand up to answer questions on what you read and give opinions on hypos about it and other related subjects, ignore the guys sleeping in the backrow and then take your final. Undergrad was harder, you actually had to show effort, now you just have to show up.

As for the risk analysis as I have said numerous times your degree is for life and any industry has ups and downs.  Real estate brokers were making tons of money a few yeras ago now it is bad and it will go up again.

Stockbrokers were balling in the 20's then this thing called the great depression happened and the industry was dead in the 30's then it came back and then it rose then it fell your profession is for life. 

The cause said last year a firm hired 6 graduates and this year only one. Who knows maybe the next two years 0 and then in 3 years they may be searching for anybody with a J.D. Market's fluctuate that is how America works.  Just because you are in bad spot now does not mean you will be forever.

A lifetime goes for awhile.

Lawrookie law school is hard as I remember you have not even taken a final yet. So you really shouldn't be saying anything, getting goods on your midterms means jacksh*t.  Maybe you are just a genius though and if so good for you. 
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 20, 2010, 08:46:43 PM
The cause said last year a firm hired 6 graduates and this year only one. Who knows maybe the next two years 0 and then in 3 years they may be searching for anybody with a J.D.

Is there any reason to believe this scenario will occur given the current supply of J.D.'s and the rate at which new ones are being produced?

Also, resume gaps make a candidate less desirable.  A degree may be for life, but if you've been out of the legal profession for a few years before trying to get back in, chances are that you'll lose out to the person who's been in the whole time, or even to the person who is fresh out of school.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 20, 2010, 08:50:58 PM
so then stay in a law related field, if you have to go federal join JAG or a govt civilian regulatory agency. Work for the IRS,etc. If you have to find work delivery pizzas or something else completely off the legal radar then still volunteer as a lawyer at free legal clinics and keep the experience(including as much court room as possible) up to date, don't just sit on your thumb and then cry because your sore down there.  :-\


The cause said last year a firm hired 6 graduates and this year only one. Who knows maybe the next two years 0 and then in 3 years they may be searching for anybody with a J.D.

Is there any reason to believe this scenario will occur given the current supply of J.D.'s and the rate at which new ones are being produced?

Also, resume gaps make a candidate less desirable.  A degree may be for life, but if you've been out of the legal profession for a few years before trying to get back in, chances are that you'll lose out to the person who's been in the whole time, or even to the person who is fresh out of school.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 20, 2010, 08:54:10 PM
so then stay in a law related field, if you have to go federal join JAG or a govt civilian regulatory agency. Work for the IRS,etc. If you have to find work delivery pizzas or something else completely off the legal radar then still volunteer as a lawyer at free legal clinics and keep the experience(including as much court room as possible) up to date, don't just sit on your thumb and then cry because your sore down there.  :-\

You make it sound like these gigs are easy to get.  Also if you managed to get a JAG position or civilian regulatory agency position, you wouldn't be one of the people with a gap in their legal resume, now would you?

Working as a volunteer is all fine and good, assuming you can find a volunteer position that will provide meaningful experience.  You're assuming these are in plentiful supply.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 20, 2010, 09:03:01 PM
They are easy in those areas. Virtually any physically able person with a JD can be JAG, and if handicap the civilian groups aren't that hard either. People mostly don't take them since they want the 160K jobs not the 40K ones.

As for the volunteer legal groups, I am only in my second term and have been doing so for a full term along with lawyers who do the same thing. Most have their own real jobs and volunteer on the side a few hours a week, but some are either at the start of their career(just passed bar looking to beef up resume) or end of their career(just helping out between trips to vacation home and grandkids) It's not that hard to do this type of stuff, its the 100Kplus ones that are hard.


so then stay in a law related field, if you have to go federal join JAG or a govt civilian regulatory agency. Work for the IRS,etc. If you have to find work delivery pizzas or something else completely off the legal radar then still volunteer as a lawyer at free legal clinics and keep the experience(including as much court room as possible) up to date, don't just sit on your thumb and then cry because your sore down there.  :-\

You make it sound like these gigs are easy to get.  Also if you managed to get a JAG position or civilian regulatory agency position, you wouldn't be one of the people with a gap in their legal resume, now would you?

Working as a volunteer is all fine and good, assuming you can find a volunteer position that will provide meaningful experience.  You're assuming these are in plentiful supply.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 20, 2010, 09:08:16 PM
They are easy in those areas. Virtually any physically able person with a JD can be JAG, and if handicap the civilian groups aren't that hard either. People mostly don't take them since they want the 160K jobs not the 40K ones.

And you know this how?  I suspect that people would take a $40k government job over no job, so why in the world are there unemployed lawyers?

Most have their own real jobs and volunteer on the side a few hours a week, but some are either at the start of their career(just passed bar looking to beef up resume) or end of their career(just helping out between trips to vacation home and grandkids) It's not that hard to do this type of stuff, its the 100Kplus ones that are hard.

That's fair enough, though I suspect that the ones working volunteer gigs will still be significantly disadvantaged compared to those who haven't had a break in their full-time legal employment.  But I'll grant that they have a better chance of getting back in than those who don't do anything related.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: TheCause on April 20, 2010, 09:14:12 PM
bigs:

The legal market doesn't look like it's going to behave normally for a while.  More people took the Bar and the LSAT last year than ever before.  Law school tuition is still rising because enrollment is going up, and there is very little market pressure for schools to change that.
So the cost of entering the profession is going up, and the market is getting more and more flooded.

Yes you can go to law school and find a successful career, and the market might get better over the next few years, but things have changed.

For example:  I'd recommend going to a T3 school with a full scholarship over a school ranked around 50 for full price.  Four years ago? No way.

Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 20, 2010, 09:29:24 PM
How? Pretty damn easy actually, I asked. They'll hire you while you're still in lawschool and pay you're lawschool for you if you know for a fact it's what you want. You have to pass some simple tests(like the asvab) but I took that back in my enlisted days, and a drunken chimp with down syndrom can get at least a passing score on it.

People don't do it for a variety of reasons. Fear of officer school. Not wanting to move. The idea of haveing a 4 year contract that they can't quit without going to prison. Stuff like that I suspect.

They are easy in those areas. Virtually any physically able person with a JD can be JAG, and if handicap the civilian groups aren't that hard either. People mostly don't take them since they want the 160K jobs not the 40K ones.

And you know this how?  I suspect that people would take a $40k government job over no job, so why in the world are there unemployed lawyers?

Most have their own real jobs and volunteer on the side a few hours a week, but some are either at the start of their career(just passed bar looking to beef up resume) or end of their career(just helping out between trips to vacation home and grandkids) It's not that hard to do this type of stuff, its the 100Kplus ones that are hard.

That's fair enough, though I suspect that the ones working volunteer gigs will still be significantly disadvantaged compared to those who haven't had a break in their full-time legal employment.  But I'll grant that they have a better chance of getting back in than those who don't do anything related.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 20, 2010, 09:33:22 PM
How? Pretty damn easy actually, I asked. They'll hire you while you're still in lawschool and pay you're lawschool for you if you know for a fact it's what you want. You have to pass some simple tests(like the asvab) but I took that back in my enlisted days, and a drunken chimp with down syndrom can get at least a passing score on it.

And the part about the civilian jobs?
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 20, 2010, 09:36:16 PM
same thing. You ask, they tell. Many pay simular to military and yes many won't let you quit either. Here is the military officer pay scales for 2010 to show you what they make(low for lawyers but high compared to enlisted)



2010 Basic Officer Military Pay ChartPay Grade Years of Service
Under 2 Over 2 Over 3 Over 4 Over 6
O-10
See Note 1          
O-9          
O-8 9399 9707 9911 9969 10223
O-7 7810 8172 8340 8474 8716
O-6 5788 6359 6777 6777 6803
O-5 4826 5436 5812 5883 6118
O-4 4164 4819 5141 5213 5511
O-3 3660 4149 4479 4884 5117
O-2 3163 3602 4149 4289 4377
O-1 2745 2858 3455 3455 3455


How? Pretty damn easy actually, I asked. They'll hire you while you're still in lawschool and pay you're lawschool for you if you know for a fact it's what you want. You have to pass some simple tests(like the asvab) but I took that back in my enlisted days, and a drunken chimp with down syndrom can get at least a passing score on it.

And the part about the civilian jobs?
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 20, 2010, 09:40:25 PM
same thing. You ask, they tell. Many pay simular to military and yes many won't let you quit either.

So which civilian regulatory agencies are hiring lawyers that can't find jobs in the private sector, exactly?  I'm curious exactly who they are.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 20, 2010, 09:43:22 PM
Are you interested in doing it for work or just to be ass? If authenticly interested I might be willing to spoon feed this to you,but not if its a pissing contest.

As for "not able to find work in the civilian sector" thats arguably the majority of the military from E-1 up. Once in many gain skills that could let them find civilian work but choose to stay, but most at least to start don't have much to go with(officers degree, enlisted normally less)

same thing. You ask, they tell. Many pay simular to military and yes many won't let you quit either.

So which civilian regulatory agencies are hiring lawyers that can't find jobs in the private sector, exactly?  I'm curious exactly who they are.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 20, 2010, 09:45:40 PM
Are you interested in doing it for work or just to be ass? If authenticly interested I might be willing to spoon feed this to you,but not if its a pissing contest.

I'm genuinely curious which agencies these are.  I didn't realize we were engaged in a pissing contest.  If I had, I would have tried harder.  ???

I'm not asking about the JAG corps, since you've already said that you spoke to them specifically.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 20, 2010, 09:48:04 PM
Its ok, sorry if I misunderstood. Hold one I'll post some(but not all, since A.I dont know it all B. I dont care enough to work an allnighter on this when I know you took at least one research class sometime in your life)
Give me a minute and I'll give you an example.

Are you interested in doing it for work or just to be ass? If authenticly interested I might be willing to spoon feed this to you,but not if its a pissing contest.

I'm genuinely curious which agencies these are.  I didn't realize we were engaged in a pissing contest.  If I had, I would have tried harder.  ???

I'm not asking about the JAG corps, since you've already said that you spoke to them specifically.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 20, 2010, 09:49:47 PM
Give me a minute and I'll give you an example.

Thanks.  :)

I'm also curious as to which civilian agencies won't let you quit.  I've never heard of that.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 20, 2010, 09:55:44 PM

Job Title: Legal Assistant
Department: Department of the Treasury
Agency: Internal Revenue Service
Job Announcement Number: PH-10-JM-339113

SALARY RANGE: 41,325.00 - 66,111.00 USD /year
OPEN PERIOD: Saturday, April 17, 2010 to Friday, April 23, 2010
SERIES & GRADE: GS-0986-06
POSITION INFORMATION: Full TimeCareer/Career Conditional
PROMOTION POTENTIAL: 8
DUTY LOCATIONS: 1 vacancy - Oakland, CA
WHO MAY BE CONSIDERED: United States Citizens

IRS A GREAT PLACE TO WORK?

Add it up!  At the IRS you will excel with one of the largest financial institutions in the world and be part of one of the most well trained, professional workforces anywhere.  Be among the best in your field and put your professional skills to work from Day 1.

• Stability - We're a proven commodity.
• Benefits - They're simply outstanding.


As a Legal Assistant GS-986-06 your duties may include, but are not limited to:

Providing compliance assistance to estate tax managers and attorneys.
Providing customer assistance to estate representatives, heirs of the estates, donors, attorneys, accountants and representatives from state taxing authorities.
Providing lien management support for the preparation, filing, and maintenance of transfer tax liens.
Performing research, analysis and necessary computations to recommend adjustments to transfer tax returns.






SPECIAL CONDITIONS OF APPOINTMENT:

You must be able to pass a pre-employment structured interview in order to assess your customer service and oral communication skills.

Fingerprints will be required as part of the pre-employment process. Meeting this is a condition of employment. The IRS policy will not allow individuals to enter on duty in any position until FBI fingerprint results, and, if applicable, case disposition information are received and reviewed. There will be no exceptions to this policy.

Applicants will be required to go through a Personal Identity Verification (PIV) process that requires two forms of identification from the Form I-9; one must be a valid State or Federal government-issued picture identification. Eligibility for a PIV Credential is required. Failure to comply with the PIV process and if unable to verify the applicant's identity, may result in the loss of consideration for employment.

To be eligible for PIV Credential applicants must have a successfully adjudicated FBI criminal history record check (fingerprint check) and a NACI or equivalent background investigation initiated. The incumbent must maintain PIV Credential eligibility during their service with the Department of the Treasury.

To be selected for this position, you must be in compliance with tax laws.

These positions are covered by a formal training plan and current IRS career or career conditional employees applying though this announcement may be entitled to retained pay IAW existing IRS pay policy. Entitlement to retained pay for current IRS employees will be reviewed by the personnel office & set IAW existing regualtions and guidelines.

NOTICE TO APPLICANTS: The Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration (TIGTA) has oversight and investigative responsibilities throughout IRS. TIGTA has authority to initiate investigations to identify IRS employees who have violated or are violating laws, rules or regulations related to the performance of their duties. TIGTA does this in part through computer matching programs.



HOW YOU WILL BE EVALUATED:


Once the application process is complete, a review of your resume and supporting documentation will be made and compared against your responses to the assessment questionnaire to determine if you are qualified for this job.  The numeric rating you receive is based on your responses to the questionnaire. The score is a measure of the degree to which your background matches the knowledge, skills, and abilities required for this position.  If, after reviewing your resume and or supporting documentation, a determination is made that you have inflated your qualifications and or experience, you may lose consideration for this position.  Please follow all instructions carefully. Errors or omissions may affect your rating.  You will be rated in the following areas:

Knowledge of the evaluation of transfer tax returns
Skill researching legal issues and communicating your findings orally and in writing



Back to top  Benefits and Other Info


BENEFITS:
Benefits:  The Federal Government offers a comprehensive benefits package.  Explore the major benefits offered to most Federal employees at http://www.usajobs.gov/EI/benefits.asp.  



OTHER INFORMATION:
1.  If you are a veteran with preference eligibility and you are claiming 5-points veterans' preference, you must submit a copy of your DD-214 or other proof of eligibility. If you are claiming 10-point veterans' preference, you must also submit an SF-15, "Application for 10-Point Veterans' Preference" plus the proof required by that form.  For more information on veterans’ preference see http://www.fedshirevets.gov/.


2.  Males born after 12-31-59 must be registered or exempt from Selective Service (see www.sss.gov ).

 

3.  Interagency Career Transition Assistance Program (ICTAP):  For information on how to apply as an ICTAP eligible see http://www.opm.gov/rif/employee_guides/career_transition.asp#ictap.  To be well-qualified and exercise selection priority for this vacancy, displaced Federal employees must be rated at 80 or above on the rating criteria for this position.  

4.  If you need a reasonable accommodation for any part of the application and hiring process, please contact the Selective Placement Coordinator Millie Ouellette at (978) 474-5720.

5.  Under Executive Order 11935, only United States citizens and nationals (residents of American Samoa and Swains Island) may compete for civil service jobs.   Applicants for this announcement must provide proof of U.S. Citizenship at the time they attend a fingerprint session.  Applicants who fail to provide this proof will not be considered for employment until acceptable documents have been provided to the employing office. Acceptable documents to prove citizenship are: Certified Birth Certificate (if born in the U.S. or U.S. Territory); U.S. Passport;    Certification of Birth Abroad FS-  545 or DS-1350; U.S. Citizen Identification Card I-197;      Identification Card for Use of Resident Citizen in the U.S. I-179; Citizenship Certificate;        Naturalization Certificate; and/or State Department Form 240.




Back to top  How To Apply


HOW TO APPLY:
To apply for this position, you must provide a complete Application Package which includes:

 

1. Your Résumé

2. A complete Assessment Questionnaire

3. Other supporting documents:

         - Veterans Preference Documentation, if applicable

   - College transcript(s), if qualifying based on education

  

The complete Application Package must be submitted by 11:59 PM (EST) on Friday, April 23, 2010.

 

To begin the process, click the Apply Online button to create an account or log in to your existing USAJOBS account. Follow the prompts to complete the assessment questionnaire. Please ensure you click the Submit My Answers button at the end of the process.

 

Note: To return to a previously Saved or Incomplete application you may use the following link: https://applicationmanager.gov/.

 

To fax supporting documents you are unable to upload, complete this cover page http://staffing.opm.gov/pdf/usascover.pdf using the following Vacancy ID PH339113.  Fax your documents to 1-478-757-3144.

 

If you cannot apply online:

Click the following link to view and print the assessment questionnaire View Occupational Questionnaire, and
Print this 1203FX form to provide your response to the assessment questionnaire http://www.opm.gov/forms/pdfimage/opm1203fx.pdf and
Fax the completed 1203FX form along with any supporting documents to 1-478-757-3144. Your 1203FX will serve as a cover page for your fax transmission.


REQUIRED DOCUMENTS:
The following documents are required and must be received by the closing date of this announcement:

 Assessment Questionnaire for PH339113
  Resume
  Transcript(s), if qualifying based on education
   Veterans Preference Documentation, if applicable
 

 



AGENCY CONTACT INFO:
Philadelphia Services Branch
Phone: (215)861-3074
Email: philadelphia@opm.gov  Agency Information:
Philadelphia Services Branch
US Office of Personnel Management
600 Arch Street
Philadelphia, PA 19106



WHAT TO EXPECT NEXT:
Once the online questionnaire is received you will receive an acknowledgement email that your submission was successful. Based upon your score, you may be referred to the hiring official. If your name is referred to the hiring official, you may be contacted directly by that office for a possible interview.  You will receive notice via email or by mail, if no email address was provided by you during the application process, once this process is completed (generally 4-6 weeks).


The IRS utilizes email to contact referred applicants regarding the submission of additional documentation and forms integral to the hiring process.  Failure to respond and return any necessary documentation or forms may disqualify you from further consideration for the position.  It is your responsibility to monitor your email and/or turn off any spam filters so that these messages may be receive.


Back to to
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 20, 2010, 09:56:52 PM
as to the not letting you quit that true anytime you sign a number of years contract. Civilian contractors see it the most, but in theory it applies to all jobs. Civilians more likely to get sued, military go to jail.

Give me a minute and I'll give you an example.

Thanks.  :)

I'm also curious as to which civilian agencies won't let you quit.  I've never heard of that.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 20, 2010, 09:59:16 PM
as to the not letting you quit that true anytime you sign a number of years contract. Civilian contractors see it the most, but in theory it applies to all jobs. Civilians more likely to get sued, military go to jail.

Okay so it's not quite like the military.  I thought you were saying that there were comparable situations.

That IRS position still looks like it requires an application process that's competitive.  Doesn't really look like it's a last-resort job.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 20, 2010, 10:00:22 PM
Here is another good one. This one is lawyer specific.Don't let "coast guard" fool you, its their civilian employees. Army has the same deal. You don't have to be military to work for the military.

Coast Guard Legal
Career Resources


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Careers in Coast Guard legal are divided in two general categories; Military and Civilian.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Civilian

Coast Guard civilian job openings are listed by the Coast Guard Civilian Personnel Office.
Coast Guard Civilian legal positions include Lawyers and Paralegals. Typically these job openings will be listed under the following series codes:

Series Description
0905
 General Attorney
 
0950
 Paralegal Specialist
 

Using the above series codes to search the USCG's civilian job openings is a fast way to locate new civilian CG Legal job openings

 
 
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 20, 2010, 10:05:16 PM
Fair enough.  A lawyer who's in one of these areas probably has a better chance of getting back into a full-time lawyer position than someone who is, as you said earlier, just delivering pizza.  That having been said, they're probably still less competitive than the folks who have been working full-time as lawyers without a break, don't you think?  (I am talking about the ones taking legal-related but not lawyer positions, so not JAG.)
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 20, 2010, 10:06:10 PM
the army one is http://www.acpol.army.mil

To answer you're other question, yes being a lawyer is the best way to be a better lawyer. There are alternatives, but the best way to be a good runner is to run, period. If it snows outside, try to jog in place untill you get a thaw.

better to be deliver pizza than be homeless and better to be a paralegal than deliver pizza. People just get a bug up their butt and refuse to do what they need to do vs what they want to do. You see that in all carrier fields too. I know a lot of laid off manual labor workers who REFUSE govt grants to go back to school for free to learn new trades. People get stubborn, people get stupid. People fail.

Remember a lawyer who works as a legal secretary is still a licensed lawyer passing time untill something  better comes up, a legal secretary who skipped lawschool can only say "yes I'd love that lawyer job....give me 3 years to get ready.. :P "
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 20, 2010, 10:15:52 PM
Remember a lawyer who works as a legal secretary is still a licensed lawyer passing time untill something  better comes up, a legal secretary who skipped lawschool can only say "yes I'd love that lawyer job....give me 3 years to get ready.. :P "

My point was that passing time until something better comes up doesn't seem all that promising given the fact that when that something better does come up, the legal secretary who is also a lawyer will probably be competing with lawyers who have been working as lawyers.  At best, it will be a hard slog upward.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 20, 2010, 10:28:24 PM
No question there, its just better than the "I can't find work, if its not perfect in every way I won't try" :'(  attitude that many seem to get.
Plus the paid legal secretary who is a licensed lawyer can still do free legal clinic as a lawyer for the resume on the side if needed to boost the actual lawyer work on resume alongside the paying job in a law realted field.
 That being said, join civilian JAG if you need to be a lawyer with steady(albeit relatively modest) pay. I bet most employers that weren't draft doggers would find it impressive. Many probally don't even know that there is civilian JAG.

Remember a lawyer who works as a legal secretary is still a licensed lawyer passing time untill something  better comes up, a legal secretary who skipped lawschool can only say "yes I'd love that lawyer job....give me 3 years to get ready.. :P "

My point was that passing time until something better comes up doesn't seem all that promising given the fact that when that something better does come up, the legal secretary who is also a lawyer will probably be competing with lawyers who have been working as lawyers.  At best, it will be a hard slog upward.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: nealric on April 20, 2010, 10:49:50 PM
Quote
How? Pretty damn easy actually, I asked. They'll hire you while you're still in lawschool and pay you're lawschool for you if you know for a fact it's what you want. You have to pass some simple tests(like the asvab) but I took that back in my enlisted days, and a drunken chimp with down syndrom can get at least a passing score on it.

I suppose a recruiter told you that  ::)

JAG is actually very difficult to get- regardless of what they told you- as are effectively all the positions you posted. Government jobs like that get hundreds of resumes for every open slot. If it was that simple, I guarantee people wouldn't be whining. Biglaw was never a likely prospect for most law students. Besides, nobody is "holding out" for 160k. In the current economy, if you don't have a biglaw job at graduation your chances of finding one as your first post-grad job are effectively 0- most people understand that.

Quote
My characterization is accurate. If you calculate expected returns using the phony law school statistics, you will probably find law school to be a good investment. If you calculate the expected returns using the true statistics, you will probably find law school to be a bad investment. My personal opinion is that law school is a bad investment unless you have exceptional grades, are well-connected, or go to HYS (Harvard, Yale, or Stanford). YOU might have achieved a great return on your investment with average or slightly-above average grades and coming from a working class household. That's good, and I applaud you for it. But decisions about whether to go to law school should be made with a cool head.

I agree and am fully aware that the salary stats are misleading. But our differences are a matter of perspective and attitude- I think we agree on the facts.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 20, 2010, 11:41:15 PM
I forget which username it was, but that was the exact figure he was crying about that his schools was "normally" supposed to get in a good economy. I speak, first as a veteran and second hell yeah talked to a recruiter. They're job is to sign you up. Period. It's really not that  hard. Those who can't make it in the real world(or those who just want to kill people) join the army, I as many lawstudents, know that from haveing my boots on the ground. How long were you enlisted?

Quote
How? Pretty damn easy actually, I asked. They'll hire you while you're still in lawschool and pay you're lawschool for you if you know for a fact it's what you want. You have to pass some simple tests(like the asvab) but I took that back in my enlisted days, and a drunken chimp with down syndrom can get at least a passing score on it.

I suppose a recruiter told you that  ::)

JAG is actually very difficult to get- regardless of what they told you- as are effectively all the positions you posted. Government jobs like that get hundreds of resumes for every open slot. If it was that simple, I guarantee people wouldn't be whining. Biglaw was never a likely prospect for most law students. Besides, nobody is "holding out" for 160k. In the current economy, if you don't have a biglaw job at graduation your chances of finding one as your first post-grad job are effectively 0- most people understand that.

Quote
My characterization is accurate. If you calculate expected returns using the phony law school statistics, you will probably find law school to be a good investment. If you calculate the expected returns using the true statistics, you will probably find law school to be a bad investment. My personal opinion is that law school is a bad investment unless you have exceptional grades, are well-connected, or go to HYS (Harvard, Yale, or Stanford). YOU might have achieved a great return on your investment with average or slightly-above average grades and coming from a working class household. That's good, and I applaud you for it. But decisions about whether to go to law school should be made with a cool head.

I agree and am fully aware that the salary stats are misleading. But our differences are a matter of perspective and attitude- I think we agree on the facts.

Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 20, 2010, 11:44:18 PM
Unless your a Felon or an invalid the service can take you. If you're a coward, that's what the civie corps are for.
Just one idea that is there but people don't want. That's all. And hell yeah, people would be still whineing if they were super-easy to get into. People feel it's there civic duty to do so. My God, 5 figures a year.....Razors,I need razors...... :-\
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: TheCause on April 21, 2010, 08:21:12 AM
Unless your a Felon or an invalid the service can take you. If you're a coward, that's what the civie corps are for.
Just one idea that is there but people don't want. That's all. And hell yeah, people would be still whineing if they were super-easy to get into. People feel it's there civic duty to do so. My God, 5 figures a year.....Razors,I need razors...... :-\

Joining the military is a possibility for almost everyone, getting a job with JAG is not.
I know plenty of really qualified candidates who were rejected by JAG.
If you get accepted in to JAG, you graduate the modified basic training as a Lieutenant, you get a great bonus, and the loan forgiveness is amazing.  As a result, you have way more applicants than positions.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: nealric on April 21, 2010, 08:26:13 AM
Quote
Unless your a Felon or an invalid the service can take you.

Right- as enlisted. I was talking about JAG. Sure, I suppose you could enlist in the army after law school- but why did you go to law school then?
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: lawrookie on April 21, 2010, 02:02:16 PM
why were they rejected?

Unless your a Felon or an invalid the service can take you. If you're a coward, that's what the civie corps are for.
Just one idea that is there but people don't want. That's all. And hell yeah, people would be still whineing if they were super-easy to get into. People feel it's there civic duty to do so. My God, 5 figures a year.....Razors,I need razors...... :-\

Joining the military is a possibility for almost everyone, getting a job with JAG is not.
I know plenty of really qualified candidates who were rejected by JAG.
If you get accepted in to JAG, you graduate the modified basic training as a Lieutenant, you get a great bonus, and the loan forgiveness is amazing.  As a result, you have way more applicants than positions.

Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: IAmMultipleBooks on April 21, 2010, 05:42:29 PM
why were they rejected?

Unless your a Felon or an invalid the service can take you. If you're a coward, that's what the civie corps are for.
Just one idea that is there but people don't want. That's all. And hell yeah, people would be still whineing if they were super-easy to get into. People feel it's there civic duty to do so. My God, 5 figures a year.....Razors,I need razors...... :-\

Joining the military is a possibility for almost everyone, getting a job with JAG is not.
I know plenty of really qualified candidates who were rejected by JAG.
If you get accepted in to JAG, you graduate the modified basic training as a Lieutenant, you get a great bonus, and the loan forgiveness is amazing.  As a result, you have way more applicants than positions.


Too many qualified applicants, not enough openings. The story of the legal profession.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: lawrookie on April 21, 2010, 07:34:31 PM
Which branch were they trying for? Did they try all the military brances and their civilian jag counterparts too?
Did they keep applying untill they met the qualifications or just move onto something else?
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: CJScalia on April 21, 2010, 07:38:49 PM
from http://esqnever.blogspot.com/2010/04/responsible-0l.html
[snip rest of your post]

I love how you keep bringing up all these nuances, balanced sources of information for us. Seriously, are you this f-ing thick, or are you just a really dedicated troll?
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: TheCause on April 21, 2010, 09:48:08 PM
Which branch were they trying for? Did they try all the military brances and their civilian jag counterparts too?
Did they keep applying untill they met the qualifications or just move onto something else?

I know one guy who managed to do ROTC while he was in law school and he got a position (Army JAG)

I know of two other people who submitted applications but never interviews.  (Air Force JAG)  Both of them had above average grades and one was on law review.  They both went to the initial informational interviews and felt good about it, but neither of them ever heard anything.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 21, 2010, 09:49:57 PM
and they failed to take the initiative to persue it untill it worked, why?
It sounds like the ROTC one got it because he knew how to keep trying.

Which branch were they trying for? Did they try all the military brances and their civilian jag counterparts too?
Did they keep applying untill they met the qualifications or just move onto something else?

I know one guy who managed to do ROTC while he was in law school and he got a position (Army JAG)

I know of two other people who submitted applications but never interviews.  (Air Force JAG)  Both of them had above average grades and one was on law review.  They both went to the initial informational interviews and felt good about it, but neither of them ever heard anything.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: CJScalia on April 21, 2010, 09:53:10 PM
and they failed to take the initiative to persue it untill it worked, why?
It sounds like the ROTC one got it because he knew how to keep trying.

I have to say, I admire your knowledge of recruitment practices. In fact, you only needed to know two very superficial facts about someone before you could completely nail down why one person got hired and another didn't. Awesome.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 21, 2010, 10:08:59 PM
These words say it all "they didn't hear anything back"


and they failed to take the initiative to persue it untill it worked, why?
It sounds like the ROTC one got it because he knew how to keep trying.

I have to say, I admire your knowledge of recruitment practices. In fact, you only needed to know two very superficial facts about someone before you could completely nail down why one person got hired and another didn't. Awesome.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: TheCause on April 22, 2010, 09:34:05 AM
These words say it all "they didn't hear anything back"

I'm sure they could have done more, but the fact is that there are way more qualified applicants to JAG than job opportunities.
So a great deal of applicants simply can't get a job there no matter what they do.

The argument (that someone else made) that getting into JAG is some sort of easy back-up plan is ridiculous.
It's almost as silly as those who claim anyone can get a job at a DAs office.   Most public sector jobs are extremely competitive. 
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: CJScalia on April 22, 2010, 09:14:38 PM
These words say it all "they didn't hear anything back"

I'm sure they could have done more, but the fact is that there are way more qualified applicants to JAG than job opportunities.
So a great deal of applicants simply can't get a job there no matter what they do.

The argument (that someone else made) that getting into JAG is some sort of easy back-up plan is ridiculous.
It's almost as silly as those who claim anyone can get a job at a DAs office.   Most public sector jobs are extremely competitive.  

You make (sort of) a valid point. DA jobs are very attractive in metropolitan areas. In rural areas, DA jobs are not that attractive. But yeah, in the major cities, DA jobs are only marginally behind BigLaw and Federal clerkships in terms of selectivity. JAG is more manageable, but still not an easy job to get by any means. Especially not if you're gay.:p

Edit: I obviously forgot USAO, which at the very least belong together with BigLaw and FedClerk.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 22, 2010, 09:17:06 PM
These words say it all "they didn't hear anything back"

You do a lot with a little.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 22, 2010, 09:28:56 PM
All you need is a little. Hell,if woman says only "I did it to watch him bleed out" that's pretty much all you need to make some major conclusions there too.

These words say it all "they didn't hear anything back"

You do a lot with a little.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: CJScalia on April 22, 2010, 09:32:06 PM
All you need is a little. Hell,if woman says only "I did it to watch him bleed out" that's pretty much all you need to make some major conclusions there too.

Really? Try writing that on your crim law exam, and see yourself getting a C- ;)

Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 22, 2010, 09:35:18 PM
Depends on what conclusion you're going for. Without question actus reas and pretty much all of the mens rea.

All you need is a little. Hell,if woman says only "I did it to watch him bleed out" that's pretty much all you need to make some major conclusions there too.

Really? Try writing that on your crim law exam, and see yourself getting a C- ;)


Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 22, 2010, 09:40:26 PM
All you need is a little.

But you don't have any data on how many times they tried to get an answer.

"They didn't hear anything back" doesn't necessarily mean they never did any follow-up.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 22, 2010, 09:43:39 PM
it's an educated guess. Even if they tell you their version of the story you don't get the "full"story. People in general cry more than they make an effort is my main point.


All you need is a little.

But you don't have any data on how many times they tried to get an answer.

"They didn't hear anything back" doesn't necessarily mean they never did any follow-up.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 22, 2010, 09:45:16 PM
it's an educated guess. Even if they tell you their version of the story you don't get the "full"story.

Educated based on what?  You don't know anything about these people.  You're just generalizing based on what human interaction you've experienced thus far, and it's a pretty tiny sample of all human interaction.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 22, 2010, 10:11:20 PM
retard.If that's the case then the entire legal system is flawed. Its called "circumstancial evidence" it's not the best, but you can have 12 inbred hicks sentence a guy to die based on it,so yeah it's good enough to prove a point about how people in general would prefer to bittch than get off their ass on the LSD forum.


it's an educated guess. Even if they tell you their version of the story you don't get the "full"story.

Educated based on what?  You don't know anything about these people.  You're just generalizing based on what human interaction you've experienced thus far, and it's a pretty tiny sample of all human interaction.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 22, 2010, 10:15:54 PM
retard.If that's the case then the entire legal system is flawed. Its called "circumstancial evidence" it's not the best, but you can have 12 inbred hicks sentence a guy to die based on it,so yeah it's good enough to prove a point about how people in general would prefer to bittch than get off their ass on the LSD forum.

But you know practically nothing about these people.  It's as if you got up in a courtroom and told the jury, "the defendant is guilty because people do bad stuff in general."

(I mean yeah maybe that would get some juries to convict, but it would get thrown out on appeal for lack of evidence.)
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 22, 2010, 10:34:32 PM
"professional standard" if it were a courtroom and a courtcase then YES you can and you do say "other doctors,etc do it this way" that and the "reasonable person standard" for everything else. That being said, I repeat LSD and yes people in general are idiots and bittch about how hard life is while doing a halfassed at best attempt at it.

retard.If that's the case then the entire legal system is flawed. Its called "circumstancial evidence" it's not the best, but you can have 12 inbred hicks sentence a guy to die based on it,so yeah it's good enough to prove a point about how people in general would prefer to bittch than get off their ass on the LSD forum.

But you know practically nothing about these people.  It's as if you got up in a courtroom and told the jury, "the defendant is guilty because people do bad stuff in general."

(I mean yeah maybe that would get some juries to convict, but it would get thrown out on appeal for lack of evidence.)
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 22, 2010, 10:37:51 PM
"professional standard" if it were a courtroom and a courtcase then YES you can and you do say "other doctors,etc do it this way" that and the "reasonable person standard" for everything else. That being said, I repeat LSD and yes people in general are idiots and bittch about how hard life is while doing a halfassed at best attempt at it.

retard.If that's the case then the entire legal system is flawed. Its called "circumstancial evidence" it's not the best, but you can have 12 inbred hicks sentence a guy to die based on it,so yeah it's good enough to prove a point about how people in general would prefer to bittch than get off their ass on the LSD forum.

But you know practically nothing about these people.  It's as if you got up in a courtroom and told the jury, "the defendant is guilty because people do bad stuff in general."

(I mean yeah maybe that would get some juries to convict, but it would get thrown out on appeal for lack of evidence.)

But you're not trying to establish a standard of conduct.  You're not trying to say, "they should have done this, because this is what a reasonable person (or a member of that person's profession) would have done in that situation."  You're trying to establish what these particular individuals actually did.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 22, 2010, 11:09:16 PM
You're a retard with too many time to bittch and yet not enough to read, puzzles the mind.
I'm saying "probally" not "absolutely" and yeah, that would be enough to take to trial, "circumstantial evidence" that being said, you're an idiot. I get the distinct impression from you that you want to believe that life is harder than it is, so believe it(enjoy your self fullfilling prophecy)

Here's all that I've trying to get at, take it for what it is and don't strain your brain trying to look any deeper(even though I know you will) The majority of people who fail, fail because they don't keep trying hard enough and long enough. That dosn't just apply to JAG, it applies to life in general.

but....but......blah,blah,blah. :-X
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 22, 2010, 11:12:20 PM
You're a retard with too many time to bittch and yet not enough to read, puzzles the mind.

When you're before a jury, is your plan to persuade them by insulting the opposing counsel?

It is, isn't it?  :D

(I'm actually not complaining about anything.  I'm just making observations about your posts.  ;) )
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 22, 2010, 11:17:42 PM
If it's on this forum then yeah, plus degradeing the character of the person on the other side is a HUGE part of winning in court. If they like the guy they can "jury nullification" even if he has no case, or in a more common scenario people on the fence swing based on "gut" feelings. It's not lawyers in that box, its people too stupid to get out of jury duty.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 22, 2010, 11:20:14 PM
If it's on this forum then yeah, plus degradeing the character of the person on the other side is a HUGE part of winning in court. If they like the guy they can "jury nullification" even if he has no case, or in a more common scenario people on the fence swing based on "gut" feelings. It's not lawyers in that box, its people too stupid to get out of jury duty.

Trashing the other side doesn't work so well if the jury's not somewhat inclined to dislike them in the first place.  If you're up against someone who's nice and civil and you're shouting at them about how they're a liar and a moron, that will reflect badly on you, not them.

Also, it's probably best not to exude sheer contempt toward the jury.  ;)
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 22, 2010, 11:22:42 PM
You have the play the angle Albeit, but apparently all the "real" lawschools dont teach facts, so if us poor old cooley folk want to keep up we best learn to sling "philosophy"(aka *&^%) the best we can to keep up since they're so much better in every way don't you know.


If it's on this forum then yeah, plus degradeing the character of the person on the other side is a HUGE part of winning in court. If they like the guy they can "jury nullification" even if he has no case, or in a more common scenario people on the fence swing based on "gut" feelings. It's not lawyers in that box, its people too stupid to get out of jury duty.

Trashing the other side doesn't work so well if the jury's not somewhat inclined to dislike them in the first place.  If you're up against someone who's nice and civil and you're shouting at them about how they're a liar and a moron, that will reflect badly on you, not them.

Also, it's probably best not to exude sheer contempt toward the jury.  ;)
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 22, 2010, 11:26:12 PM
You have the play the angle Albeit, but apparently all the "real" lawschools dont teach facts, so if us poor old cooley folk want to keep up we best learn to sling "philosophy"(aka poo) the best we can to keep up since they're so much better in every way don't you know.

Slinging poo is probably not a great way of keeping up.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: nealric on April 23, 2010, 11:00:24 AM
If the flame war does not stop immediately, this thread will be locked. Personal attacks cross the line.
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 23, 2010, 02:16:37 PM
.....poo...... :D
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: CJScalia on April 26, 2010, 01:18:44 PM
If the flame war does not stop immediately, this thread will be locked. Personal attacks cross the line.

Yo momma so short you can see her feet on her drivers license!
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 26, 2010, 05:00:14 PM
I don't think he has the balls.... :-X
Title: Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
Post by: nealric on April 26, 2010, 06:50:42 PM
I realize you guys are joking, but I think the jokes are proof that this thread's time has come and gone. Feel free to start another one if you feel strongly about discussing the issue.