Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses => Topic started by: themanwithoutaname on April 13, 2010, 02:28:20 PM

Title: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: themanwithoutaname on April 13, 2010, 02:28:20 PM
So, the newest rankings are out.  What are your thoughts?
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The Top 100:

1. Yale
2. Harvard
3. Stanford
4. Columbia
5. U. of Chicago
6. NYU
7. UC Berkeley
7. U. Pennsylvania
9. U. Michigan
10. U. Virginia
11. Duke
11. Northwestern
13. Cornell
14. Georgetown
15. UCLA
15. U. Texas
17. Vanderbilt
18. USC
19. Washington University in St. Louis
20. George Washington
21. U. Illinois
22. Boston U.
22. Emory University
22. U. Minnestoa
22. Notre Dame
26. U. Iowa
27. Indiana U.-Bloomington
28. Boston College
28. Willaim and mary
28. UC Davis
28. U. Georgia
28. U. North Carolina
28. U. Wisconsin-Madison
34. Fordham
34. Ohio State
34. U. Washingon
34. Washington and Lee
38. Arizona State
38. U. Alabama
38. U. Colorado-Boulder
38. Wake Forest
42. BYU
42. George Mason
42. U. Arizona
42. UC Hastings
42. U. Utah
47. U. Florida
48. American University
48. SMU
48. Tulane
48. U. Maryland
52. Pepperdine
52. Yeshiva
54. Florida State University
54. U. Connecticut
56. Case Western
56. Loyola Marymount
56. U. Cincinnati
56. U. San Diego
60. Georgia State
60. U. Houston
60. U. Miami
60. U. Tennessee
64. Baylor
64. Lewis and Clark
64. U. Kentucky
67. Brooklyn Law School
67. U. Kansas
67. U. New Mexico
67. U. Pittsburg
67. Villanova
72. Pennsylvania State
72. Seton Hall
72. St. John's
72. Temple
72. U. Hawaii
72. U. Oklahoma
78. Loyola (Chicago)
78. U. Nevada-Las Vegas
80. Illinois IT
80. Louisiana State
80. Rutgers (Camden)
80. Rutgers (Newark)
80. U. Denver
80. U. Oregon
86. Hofstra
86. Indiana U-Indianapolis
86. Northeastern U.
86. Seattle U.
86. Syracuse
86. U. Arkansas-Fayetteville
86. U. Richmond
93. Chapman U.
93. Santa Clara U.
93. U. Missouri
93. U. Nebraska-Lincoln
93. West Viginia U.
98. Catholic University
98. DePaul U.
98. U. San Francisco
98. U. of the Pacific
98. William Mitchell College of Law
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 13, 2010, 03:23:17 PM
BULL! Here's the only rankings that count! You here that Berkeley, you suck!
 >:(

Judging the Law Schools - Overall Rankings 2008
SCHOOL 2008 2007
Harvard University
 1 (1)
Georgetown University  2 (2)
New York University 3 (6)
University of Virginia  4 (4)
University of Texas 5 (3)
University of Michigan 6 (9)
Northwestern University 7 (5)
Columbia University  8 (7)
Yale Law School 9 (8)
George Washington University  10 (11)
University of Minnesota 11 (9)
Thomas M. Cooley Law School  12 (16)
Fordham University 13 (15)
University of California-Los Angeles  14 (13)
American University 15 (14)
University of Pennsylvania 16 (12)
University of California-Hastings 17 (18)
Stanford University 18 (19)
University of Maryland  19 (29)
University of California-Berkeley 20 (17)
 
Loyola Law School  21 (23)
Temple University  22 (25)
Brooklyn Law School  23 (20)
University of Wisconsin 24 (21)
Boston University  25 (22)
University of Miami  26 (27)
Duke University  27 (24)
Washington University  28 (30)
Chicago-Kent College of Law  29 (28)
University of Houston 30 (26)
 
University of Chicago  31 (38)
Emory University 32 (44)
University of Connecticut  33 (36)
University of Iowa  34 (32)
Suffolk University 35 (39)
Indiana University-Bloomington 36 (37)
SMU Dedman School of Law  37 (40)
Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law  38 (43)
Boston College  39 (31)
Ohio State University 40 (40)
 
University of Alabama  41 (51)
Seton Hall University 42 (35)
Vanderbilt University 43 (57)
University of North Carolina  44 (38)
Cornell Law School 45 (34)
Catholic University 46 (59)
Tulane University 47 (42)
University of Illinois  48 (41)
University of Denver  49 (63)
University of San Diego 50 (49)

 Back to Top
 
 
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Phone (517) 371-5140 | Contact Cooley | Webmaster | Jobs at Cooley

Maps and driving directions to Cooley Law School campus locations
 
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: nealric on April 13, 2010, 03:33:50 PM
I would caution people not to read too much into single-year rankings.

So when do the new Cooley rankings come out this year smiley faced guy? I do have a special place in my heart for any rankings that puts GULC at #2 :)
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: TheDudeMan on April 13, 2010, 03:37:56 PM
I would caution people not to read too much into single-year rankings.

So when do the new Cooley rankings come out this year smiley faced guy? I do have a special place in my heart for any rankings that puts GULC at #2 :)

Agreed, last year's placement of GW at 27 proved to be the fluke that it clearly was.

ITE, if you aren't top 10, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.  Glad I summered before the *&^% hit the fan.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 13, 2010, 07:36:53 PM
Where'd you "summer" to? Why you keep pooing in fans? Personally I prefer to piss into the wind.  ;D

I would caution people not to read too much into single-year rankings.

So when do the new Cooley rankings come out this year smiley faced guy? I do have a special place in my heart for any rankings that puts GULC at #2 :)

Agreed, last year's placement of GW at 27 proved to be the fluke that it clearly was.

ITE, if you aren't top 10, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.  Glad I summered before the poo hit the fan.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: latinlord on April 14, 2010, 09:36:30 AM
Hummm both Villanova and Temple went down?!! grrr. but everyone was saying Villanova with that new pricy school was going to dominate...i guess not...jaja
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: TheDudeMan on April 14, 2010, 09:45:54 AM
Outside of the top 25 employers could care less about the rank.  I really don't see why schools care.  Either you are in the "in" group or you aren't.  And even being in doesn't help much these days.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: latinlord on April 14, 2010, 09:57:35 AM
i agree it is nothing more than bragging rights now adays... economy sux...haha
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 14, 2010, 09:58:23 AM
Isn't that kind of like saying if you can't date a supermodel then who cares who you wake up next to? Gotta tell ya man, I'd rather wake up next to #25(unemployed but still hot and only one kid) vs #100(300 pounds, still commonlaw married to a felon named "leeroy" and her livein adult son watching this whole time yelling an odd mix of insult and encouragment).  

Outside of the top 25 employers could care less about the rank.  I really don't see why schools care.  Either you are in the "in" group or you aren't.  And even being in doesn't help much these days.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: bigs5068 on April 14, 2010, 10:21:05 PM
Yea rankings are the most important thing I see that Gonzaga and Maine are no longer in the top 100 and I heard the all the professors immediately turned into flesh eating zombies. Then Everyone that ever graduated from those schools was immediately fired and had their membership to the bar revoked.  That is just how important the rankings are.

I also like how they give 10 schools the same rank. 5 ranked #98, 5 schools ranked #93, 6 schools ranked #86, 6 schools ranked #80, only 2 ranked #78, 6 ranked #72, 5 ranked #67, 3 ranked #68, 4 ranked #60 and the list continues at least the Cooley rankings have the balls to give each school a number even if it is based on how many chairs each school has at least you can measure that.

The sheer ridiculousness of the rankings amazes me it is the most brilliant scheme of all time. U.S. News just came up with a ranking based on a formula which makes absolutely no sense. It is about 80% based on pure subjective feelings of unidentified individuals. If you look at the formula the most importatn consideration that any law school has is the LEAST important in the U.S. news rankings and that is bar passage rate. The bar passage rate makes up %2 of a schools U.S News ranking.  So a school could techncially be number #1 in the U.S. rankings and have a 0% bar passage rate. Since bar passage makes up only %2 of your ranking.  Really take a second to look at how U.S. News comes up with the rankings it is amazing how idiotic the formula is. As a result of it being so stupid every official law school organization. ABA, LSAC, AALS all adamantly refuse to acknowledge the rankings and have given nothing, but their utter disapproval of the rankings and each of their websites has a disclaimer on saying ignore the rankings, because they are irrelevant.

Common sense will tell you Harvard is a better school than Williamette, I hope if you are considering law school you are smart enough to know that. However, distinguishing between Florida International University and California Western really does not matter. Honestly, to anyone considering law school do not take these rankings seriously. Use common sense when choosing your school of course, but do not base your decision on these idiotic rankings.  Especially since they will change dramatically every year you can be a tier 2 one year then a tier 4 the next. USF has made another drastic drop I see although they made a drastic rise last year. To show the complete unpredictability (unreliablity) of the rankings look at USF's rank over the last 4 yeras   years in 2008 They were 72 in 2009 they went to tier 3 which means 100-something in 2010 they went to 78 I think and now they are to 98. That is just one example of how unpredictable and unreliable the rankings are.  I can't imagine what has really changed at USF over those 4 years to warrant that kind of deviation, but I am sure nothing changed at all. U.S. News is just a complete joke and really don't take them seriously. 




Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: vansondon on April 15, 2010, 06:24:55 AM
Yea rankings are the most important thing I see that Gonzaga and Maine are no longer in the top 100 and I heard the all the professors immediately turned into flesh eating zombies. Then Everyone that ever graduated from those schools was immediately fired and had their membership to the bar revoked.  That is just how important the rankings are.

I also like how they give 10 schools the same rank. 5 ranked #98, 5 schools ranked #93, 6 schools ranked #86, 6 schools ranked #80, only 2 ranked #78, 6 ranked #72, 5 ranked #67, 3 ranked #68, 4 ranked #60 and the list continues at least the Cooley rankings have the balls to give each school a number even if it is based on how many chairs each school has at least you can measure that.

The sheer ridiculousness of the rankings amazes me it is the most brilliant scheme of all time. U.S. News just came up with a ranking based on a formula which makes absolutely no sense. It is about 80% based on pure subjective feelings of unidentified individuals. If you look at the formula the most importatn consideration that any law school has is the LEAST important in the U.S. news rankings and that is bar passage rate. The bar passage rate makes up %2 of a schools U.S News ranking.  So a school could techncially be number #1 in the U.S. rankings and have a 0% bar passage rate. Since bar passage makes up only %2 of your ranking.  Really take a second to look at how U.S. News comes up with the rankings it is amazing how idiotic the formula is. As a result of it being so stupid every official law school organization. ABA, LSAC, AALS all adamantly refuse to acknowledge the rankings and have given nothing, but their utter disapproval of the rankings and each of their websites has a disclaimer on saying ignore the rankings, because they are irrelevant.

Common sense will tell you Harvard is a better school than Williamette, I hope if you are considering law school you are smart enough to know that. However, distinguishing between Florida International University and California Western really does not matter. Honestly, to anyone considering law school do not take these rankings seriously. Use common sense when choosing your school of course, but do not base your decision on these idiotic rankings.  Especially since they will change dramatically every year you can be a tier 2 one year then a tier 4 the next. USF has made another drastic drop I see although they made a drastic rise last year. To show the complete unpredictability (unreliablity) of the rankings look at USF's rank over the last 4 yeras   years in 2008 They were 72 in 2009 they went to tier 3 which means 100-something in 2010 they went to 78 I think and now they are to 98. That is just one example of how unpredictable and unreliable the rankings are.  I can't imagine what has really changed at USF over those 4 years to warrant that kind of deviation, but I am sure nothing changed at all. U.S. News is just a complete joke and really don't take them seriously. 






The most sensible thing ever said about the rankings!
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: TheDudeMan on April 15, 2010, 07:19:58 AM
While I agree the rankings are generally ridiculous once you get out of the top 25 or so schools, it's always people that don't have good stats and aren't going anywhere worth going that complain about how ridiculous they are.

Your 155 LSAT and half-cocked GPA puts you in the world of average.....  So of course you bash the system.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: bigs5068 on April 18, 2010, 11:06:20 AM
I am not a genius I never claimed to be.  Yes Harvard is a great school and I don't have a problem with them ranking those schools, because the top 25 is somewhat relevant, just like the NCAA ranks the top 25 teams, but outside of the top 25 it doesn't matter. Even then it is just a rank and at the end of day it is up to you to find a job, pass that bar and continually perform as a lawyer.

The only reason I wrote this is to warn the AVERAGE people like me who get 155 LSATS and have to choose between tier 2', tier 3's and tier 4's. We can't all be self-proclaimed geniuses like yourself. So my warning for students like me who are deciding where to go next fall based on these rankings is that I almost went to Michigan State based on there tier 3 ranking and it might even be a tier 2 soon enough, but at the end of the day it is not really any better than GGU. I wanted to live in San Francisco after graduation, because I love this city and the truth is a San Francisco employer is more likely to hire a GGU grad than a MSU grad and I would imagine a Detroit employer is more likely to hire a MSU grad. Also GGU will prepare you more for the California Bar and MSU will prepare you for Michigan's. Obviously, University of Michigan that is a differnt story, but it was the difference between 102 and 132 so it really didn't matter. Bottom line if you are one of the AVERAGE people like me choose your school based on location, or a special program, or a clinic that is of interest to you, or obviously scholarship money. However, DO NOT MAKE YOUR DECISION based on these rankings if you are choosing between tier 2, tier 3, tier 4 it is probably better to take scholarship money and go to a lower ranked school.

I know 3 people who are upset about relying on the rankings. These three people transferred from GGU to USF and Santa Clara and they are upset because they lost out on 80,000 of scholarship money from GGU. So they went from U.S. 132 to U.S. 98 and really is it worth 80,000 probably not and they don't think so one of them has an internship with two people from his 1L section in GGU so he ended up in the same place he would have had he not transferred, but he is just 80,000 more in debt by taking these idiotic rankings seriously. Honestly, common sense would tell you that Santa Clara is not that much better than GGU, certainly not 80,000 worth. neither school is really going to have people drooling over you. Had he transferred to Stanford that is a different story and again common sense would have made you realize Stanford is better than GGU and you probably did not need U.S. News to tell you that. So bottom these rankings are highly dangerous to base your decision and should not be taken seriously. Use common sense when choosing your school.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: TheDudeMan on April 18, 2010, 11:57:36 AM
When choosing schools outside of those in the rankings loop, you should choose based on where you will be happy living and working for the rest of your life.  Reality is that outside the top 25-30 schools, you aren't getting out of your local city unless you are top of the class, and even then it's a long shot for major markets.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 18, 2010, 02:51:41 PM
who says that you have to live where you graduate? I have Canucks in mine.

When choosing schools outside of those in the rankings loop, you should choose based on where you will be happy living and working for the rest of your life.  Reality is that outside the top 25-30 schools, you aren't getting out of your local city unless you are top of the class, and even then it's a long shot for major markets.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: CJScalia on April 18, 2010, 11:00:12 PM
who says that you have to live where you graduate? I have Canucks in mine.

When choosing schools outside of those in the rankings loop, you should choose based on where you will be happy living and working for the rest of your life.  Reality is that outside the top 25-30 schools, you aren't getting out of your local city unless you are top of the class, and even then it's a long shot for major markets.

It's extremely difficult to get employed outside the region of your school if your school falls below the T14, and more and more difficult the deeper you fall.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: bigs5068 on April 19, 2010, 12:17:17 AM
Yes completely true and just another reason to not take the rankings seriously at the end of the day location is 100x more important than whatever their idiotic formula says. Common sense tells you that Harvard, Yale, Stanford will open a lot of doors for you. However, GGU has more pull in San Francisco than Gonzaga. Gonzaga has more pull in Seattle and Spokane than Florida State. Just down the line almost every law school except the elite ones are regional and to all future students DO NOT BASS YOUR RANKINGS BASED ON THIS FORMULA USE COMMON SENSE!
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: CJScalia on April 19, 2010, 12:28:42 AM
I'm not quite sure I agree with that, rankings really do matter. It sucks, but it does.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: bigs5068 on April 19, 2010, 01:21:08 AM
Of course they matter somewhat I mean Hastings is definetly better than GGU no question about it, but when I lived in New York nobody even knew about the California schools I had wanted to go to Pepperdine and not one attorney on my team had even heard of  Pepperdine or knew it was. Despite Pepperdine being ranked 50 they had no idea about it, they asked if it was one of the CBA approved schools when I told them and I was like no it is ranked a school and the consensus they had never heard of it. They were all familiar with Touro, Seton Hall, Rutgers and the lower ranked schools that is where people they deal with went and what was around.  Certainly Cardozo or NYU is going to open a lot more doors in New York than Touro or NYLS is, but location really does mean a lot more from my limited experiences.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: CJScalia on April 19, 2010, 01:26:40 PM
If no attorney at your firm had heard about Pepperdine, you should take aim for the door, pack your *&^%, and run as fast as you can.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: lawschoolbound1 on April 19, 2010, 01:45:16 PM
What do you guys think about Alabama's 8 number drop?  Think that will affect their class this year?  I've heard that people over the median are bailing because they were accepted to better ranked schools (as of this years rankings).  Any truth to this?  Very interesting subject, this rankings bit.  It's unfortunate that it matters, but it does, and it matters a lot.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 19, 2010, 02:28:31 PM
It sounds like your true question is if YOU should cut bait or not. I'd say fuckk the numbers, if you were going to go their anyways and the only thing that changed was their status in the popularity contest, then why give a shitt? If someone is that fickel, screwem' you don't those pricks breathing your air anyways do you?

What do you guys think about Alabama's 8 number drop?  Think that will affect their class this year?  I've heard that people over the median are bailing because they were accepted to better ranked schools (as of this years rankings).  Any truth to this?  Very interesting subject, this rankings bit.  It's unfortunate that it matters, but it does, and it matters a lot.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: lawschoolbound1 on April 19, 2010, 02:33:39 PM
Unfortunately, you have it wrong.  I did not apply there.  I am merely curious, and I find the rumors very interesting.  I do agree that those that are jumping ship because of rankings, shouldn't be there to begin with, however rankings do matter quite a bit. 
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: bigs5068 on April 19, 2010, 04:46:16 PM
If no attorney at your firm had heard about Pepperdine, you should take aim for the door, pack your poo, and run as fast as you can.

It was the New York City Law Department pretty massive place.  They just really didn't know Pepperdine  because there are no Pepperdine graduates in New York they just don't go to New York. There is not to many Cardozo grads in San Francisco not to say either school is bad, but when attorney's are in practice from what I saw they really weren't ordering the rankings and seeing what school was ranked where. Obviously, they knew the pecking order in New York and Boston, but they really had no clue in regards to California schools. Although they did certainly take the pecking order into account they hired people there were more important issues in their hiring decisions, than what the school was ranked. If an applicant ranked highly at their school, had a great writing sample, great references, or some work experience they interviewed them. One of the attorneys they hired was in the bottom %50 at Touro she told me, but she had a nursing degree and they put her in the Medical Malpractice Division over people from NYU, because that nursing degree gave her intangibles that a law degree from NYU doesn't give you in Medical Malpractice cases.Obviously, in New York NYU gets an interview a lot easier than Touro does.

Another example of that, would be if you want a job as a legal consultant for the Chinese Embassy they will take someone who speaks fluent Mandarin and graduated from Cooley over someone that doesn't speak Mandardin and went to Harvard. Intangibles  and prior experience really play a huge role in getting employment or at least at the three places I worked in. Cleraly 3 places working as a paralegal is not that much experience and I am far from really knowing what is going on, but you can see how all that makes logical sense. A Chinese guy who gets his Visa screwed over in America and doesn't speak English is not going to be all that impressed with your Harvard degree he needs to be able to communicate. If you went to Cooley and spoke Mandarin your the one he would pay money to talk to. Obviously if you went to Harvard and spoke Mandarin your set, but intangibles really do mean a lot once you get into the real world.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: TheDudeMan on April 20, 2010, 07:43:56 AM
Clearly you are a 0L with no idea how legal recruitment works.  While your argument (albeit riddled with grammatical errors) is sound, the sad reality is that a Cooley grad who speaks 10 languages is still unlikely to find employment over a Harvard grad.  It just isn't going to work that way simply because most top notch employers aren't even going to LOOK AT the Cooley student's resume.  It will get mailed to the firm, go through HR, and end up in the trash.

Welcome to the legal profession.  I'm not saying it's right, but it's how it is.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: bigs5068 on April 20, 2010, 11:42:07 AM
I am well aware that Harvard is a better school than Cooley, but for the specific job of dealing with the Chinese government in that specific instance, with my 1L common sense I would hire the guy that knows mandarin to deal with people that speak Mandarin.  The Harvard Grad could know every legal theory and nuance and trick in the book, but if you can't communicate with him what good is he for that specific task.

Or even if you wanted to work in medical malpractice if someone has a M.D. and a J.D. from Touro and they want to work at a medical malpractice firm they will have an edge over a Stanford Grad for that specific job.

A Touro grad with no special intangibles v. a Stanford grad with no special intangibles who wins that one?  With my magic ability to use common sense the Standford Grad wins!!!

I know a lot of people in law school have never been outside academia, but there is whole thing called common sense that exists in the real world and a lot of people on this board and in law school should learn about it. 

Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: TheDudeMan on April 20, 2010, 12:57:59 PM
Big, you are missing my point.  I agree with you that common sense hiring would make sense, however, it's simply not the way the legal world works.  Legal employers hire resumes, not people. 

You can be bitter about it, or you can accept it and work within it.  Are there exceptions?  Of course there are. However, 99% of the time the Harvard grad with no language skills is going to have more opportunities than the Cooley grad with 10 languages and moonlight's as a super hero.

Simply the facts of life....
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: bigs5068 on April 20, 2010, 01:24:23 PM
Yea I agree, unless language is a prerequisite for a specific job that is all I was trying to say.

A Cooley Grad could be fluent in 5 languages and have a M.D. if he goes into competition for a real estate law job with someone with 0 work experience that graduates from Harvard Law, the Harvard Grad will win. This is because speaking 5 languages and having a M.D. are irrelevant to real estate law and Harvard beats Cooley 99.9% of the time..
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 20, 2010, 03:14:07 PM
when did cooley start giving out MD's?

Yea I agree, unless language is a prerequisite for a specific job that is all I was trying to say.

A Cooley Grad could be fluent in 5 languages and have a M.D. if he goes into competition for a real estate law job with someone with 0 work experience that graduates from Harvard Law, the Harvard Grad will win. This is because speaking 5 languages and having a M.D. are irrelevant to real estate law and Harvard beats Cooley 99.9% of the time..
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: bigs5068 on April 20, 2010, 07:19:02 PM
They obviously would have gotten the M.D. from a different school, before going to law school.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 20, 2010, 07:33:08 PM
or at the same time, driveing flying from a weekday MD course in another town to the cooley weekend course. Cooley students are just that awsome! Hell, if the school is across Lake Michigan, I wouldn't be suprised if a few couldn't just walk on water to get there.  ;)

They obviously would have gotten the M.D. from a different school, before going to law school.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: nealric on April 20, 2010, 10:40:07 PM
Quote
Or even if you wanted to work in medical malpractice if someone has a M.D. and a J.D. from Touro and they want to work at a medical malpractice firm they will have an edge over a Stanford Grad for that specific job.
 

The Stanford grad would be quite unlikely to be applying for a medical malpractice job in the first place. Even so, you really don't need all that much medical knowledge to do medmal. It's helpful in evaluating the merits in the case, but you already need to hire experts to do that.

But back to the original point, different schools have different employment circles. The Stanford grad is going to either be working in biglaw (V100 biglaw, not regional), going into a federal clerkship, or working in public interest. There are effectively no Cooley graduates doing v100 biglaw or doing federal clerkships. That's not a slam on the school, just a descriptive fact. As a general rule, Cooley grads won't even be applying to those positions. They might compete in the public interest sphere, but even then it's quite unlikely. However, I have no doubt that a Stanford grad would have a very hard time finding employment at a Michigan personal injury firm, which might pick a Cooley grad instead.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: bigs5068 on April 21, 2010, 12:46:20 AM
Yea I totally agree and I don't think anyone needed U.S. News Rankings to tell us that Stanford opens more doors than Cooley.

That was the whole point of my criticism of the rankings common sense can tell us all we need to know.  If they ranked the top #25 schools I would not have a problem, because it would be something for schools to strive for etc.  However, distinguishing between 78 and 103 really doesn't matter.  I have not heard any news that professors at Gonzaga, became flesh eating zombies now that they went from tier 2 to tier 3 in the newest edition of U.S. News. Unfortunately, as a result of this drop from #100 to tier #3, which could  a lot of Gonzaga applicants will withdraw and go to University of Maine who held onto their #2 status this year, but when studetns get theri Gonzaga will probably back to tier #2 and Maine to Tier #3 and students will have made a horrible decision  based on U.S. News idiotic formula.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 21, 2010, 04:01:50 AM
...there is whole thing called common sense that exists in the real world and a lot of people on this board and in law school should learn about it. 

Ah "common sense," the thing that people throw out when they don't have data...
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: CooleyGrad on April 21, 2010, 10:08:35 AM
Yea I agree, unless language is a prerequisite for a specific job that is all I was trying to say.

A Cooley Grad could be fluent in 5 languages and have a M.D. if he goes into competition for a real estate law job with someone with 0 work experience that graduates from Harvard Law, the Harvard Grad will win. This is because speaking 5 languages and having a M.D. are irrelevant to real estate law and Harvard beats Cooley 99.9% of the time..

Depends on the real estate market -- international development gigs could love that diversity.  But the Ivy League tends to beat out just about everyone wouldn't you agree?

I think you could say the same of a UT law grad just because of the prestige of Harvard.  Obviously there is a large gap in he degree that Harvard would trump Cooley and the degree it would trump UT -- but just sayin'.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: bigs5068 on April 21, 2010, 01:31:30 PM
...there is whole thing called common sense that exists in the real world and a lot of people on this board and in law school should learn about it. 

Ah "common sense," the thing that people throw out when they don't have data...

Yes you should throw in common sense and the U.S. News is not data at all. It is a blatant scam and there is nothing objective measured they do give bar passage rate a whopping 2% consideration in the rankings. The LSAT score I think is 10% the other measurements are completely subjective and based on unidentified people. 

Then acceptance and placement rates are so blatantly tweeked by every school that it is not even worth mentioning. So U.S. News is not data and should not be taken seriously.  You should use your common sense when picking a school, if you your choices are between Stanford and Williamette go to Stanford.

However, do not make the same mistake I know 3 people sincerely regret by transferring from GGU where they had full scholarship  to Santa Clara and USF in their second year. They thought it was such a good idea to go from tier 4 to tier 2. However, one guy is in the same internship with two of his section mates from GGU and the only difference is he has 80,000 more in debt, for going to a tier 2, which could end up being a tier 3 next year and GGU could go to tier 3 it is completely unpredicatable after the last #50 spots.

Anyways, common sense could have saved those three transfers 80,000, because you would realize Stanford and Berkley are right here. You impress people if you are from those schools and maybe Hastings, but outside of those employers are going to look more to your class rank, experience, reference etc rather than if you went to the 98th best school or the 121st.  USF, Santa Clara, GGU are not jaw dropping schools and there is no point in U.S. News ranking them.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 21, 2010, 01:47:13 PM
In my opinion the bar passage rate should be the MAIN issue. Attrition should be a factor too,but other than those two factors the rest is really just a BS popularity contest from what I can tell.


...there is whole thing called common sense that exists in the real world and a lot of people on this board and in law school should learn about it. 

Ah "common sense," the thing that people throw out when they don't have data...

Yes you should throw in common sense and the U.S. News is not data at all. It is a blatant scam and there is nothing objective measured they do give bar passage rate a whopping 2% consideration in the rankings. The LSAT score I think is 10% the other measurements are completely subjective and based on unidentified people. 

Then acceptance and placement rates are so blatantly tweeked by every school that it is not even worth mentioning. So U.S. News is not data and should not be taken seriously.  You should use your common sense when picking a school, if you your choices are between Stanford and Williamette go to Stanford.

However, do not make the same mistake I know 3 people sincerely regret by transferring from GGU where they had full scholarship  to Santa Clara and USF in their second year. They thought it was such a good idea to go from tier 4 to tier 2. However, one guy is in the same internship with two of his section mates from GGU and the only difference is he has 80,000 more in debt, for going to a tier 2, which could end up being a tier 3 next year and GGU could go to tier 3 it is completely unpredicatable after the last #50 spots.

Anyways, common sense could have saved those three transfers 80,000, because you would realize Stanford and Berkley are right here. You impress people if you are from those schools and maybe Hastings, but outside of those employers are going to look more to your class rank, experience, reference etc rather than if you went to the 98th best school or the 121st.  USF, Santa Clara, GGU are not jaw dropping schools and there is no point in U.S. News ranking them.

Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: CJScalia on April 21, 2010, 07:45:32 PM
In my opinion the bar passage rate should be the MAIN issue.

I generally like you, but this suggestion is dumb as shits. The difference in difficulty between the various bar exams are f-ing gigantic. So, no, bar passage rate shouldn't mean jack *&^% until you actually make everyone take the same bar exam.

I'd like to point out (again) that Cooley students have 30% bar pass rate on the California bar. I don't hear you bragging about that.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 21, 2010, 08:55:47 PM
If a point is valid it shouldn't matter if it helps or hurts you only if it's valid or not. People in general are too egocentric to understand something as simple as that.


In my opinion the bar passage rate should be the MAIN issue.

I generally like you, but this suggestion is dumb as shits. The difference in difficulty between the various bar exams are f-ing gigantic. So, no, bar passage rate shouldn't mean jack poo until you actually make everyone take the same bar exam.

I'd like to point out (again) that Cooley students have 30% bar pass rate on the California bar. I don't hear you bragging about that.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: CJScalia on April 21, 2010, 09:11:09 PM
If a point is valid it shouldn't matter if it helps or hurts you only if it's valid or not. People in general are too egocentric to understand something as simple as that.

Care to explain what that's supposed to mean?
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 21, 2010, 09:28:52 PM
keep reading it untill it makes sense I guess.

If a point is valid it shouldn't matter if it helps or hurts you only if it's valid or not. People in general are too egocentric to understand something as simple as that.

Care to explain what that's supposed to mean?
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: CJScalia on April 21, 2010, 09:39:32 PM
If only that would work.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 21, 2010, 09:48:15 PM
try a semster at the real deal, we'll put the smarts back in your head for you.   8)
see you next term newbie.

If only that would work.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: CJScalia on April 21, 2010, 09:55:12 PM
try a semster at the real deal, we'll put the smarts back in your head for you.   8)
see you next term newbie.

If only that would work.

Yeah, sounds like a great deal. Despite that I'm 2 weeks from graduating a good law school, I should try to transfer down to a tier 4 school and see if I can cut it there. Sounds brilliant. You actually do think Cooley is good, don't you? This isn't an act?
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: Mr. Hart on April 21, 2010, 10:06:25 PM
try a semster at the real deal, we'll put the smarts back in your head for you.   8)
see you next term newbie.

If only that would work.

Yeah, sounds like a great deal. Despite that I'm 2 weeks from graduating a good law school, I should try to transfer down to a tier 4 school and see if I can cut it there. Sounds brilliant. You actually do think Cooley is good, don't you? This isn't an act?
[/b]

 :D is just posting flames. Don't pay him any attention.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 21, 2010, 10:06:40 PM
so "graduate" then come get an LLM from the real deal. It'll put the frosting on the poo and make it look like a chococlate moose pie when we're done. It's not too late.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 21, 2010, 10:10:56 PM
You're the only flamer to me.  :-* (just jokeing)

[/quote][/b]

 :D is just posting flames. Don't pay him any attention.
[/quote]
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: CJScalia on April 21, 2010, 10:14:24 PM
so "graduate" then come get an LLM from the real deal. It'll put the frosting on the poo and make it look like a chococlate moose pie when we're done. It's not too late.

As if LLM's aren't worthless enough if they're from a good school :p

:D is just posting flames. Don't pay him any attention.

Yeah, not taking him all that serious, but not like there's anything better to do? ;)
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 22, 2010, 09:19:59 PM
In my opinion the bar passage rate should be the MAIN issue.

Maybe if you're deciding between two law schools that have 75% and 85% bar passage rates.  This wouldn't be a good way to distinguish between the top schools though, because it would suggest changes in overall quality that were far greater than they actually were, since the percentage fluctuates from year to year by a decent number of percentage points just due to random chance.

Also at the top law schools, very little of the curriculum is devoted to bar passage.  They assume you'll just learn most of that during the month or two before the bar.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 22, 2010, 09:26:40 PM
then what do they teach?


In my opinion the bar passage rate should be the MAIN issue.

Maybe if you're deciding between two law schools that have 75% and 85% bar passage rates.  This wouldn't be a good way to distinguish between the top schools though, because it would suggest changes in overall quality that were far greater than they actually were, since the percentage fluctuates from year to year by a decent number of percentage points just due to random chance.

Also at the top law schools, very little of the curriculum is devoted to bar passage.  They assume you'll just learn most of that during the month or two before the bar.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: CJScalia on April 22, 2010, 09:31:22 PM
then what do they teach?

The top schools generally have a more "philosophical" approach to the subjects. I'm not really sure how to properly put the difference into words, but yeah, they have a lot less focus on practical aspects of being a lawyer, or passing the bar. They assume you fix that yourself. The very best place to tell the difference is really in a Civ Pro class, and just seeing how little time they spend on the FRCP compared to what "lower ranked" schools do. Whether this is a good thing or not for their students can be (and consistently is) debated.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 22, 2010, 09:37:06 PM
Yes you should throw in common sense

Common sense is something that our intuition tells us is true, even though we can't articulate why exactly it's true.  Therefore, a poor substitute for facts.  Now when the facts and your common sense tell you things that contradict each other, maybe you need to step back and ask yourself if you're misreading the facts.  But if they tell you the same thing then it's better to rely on the facts.  They're generally more convincing when you're trying to persuade someone to agree with your version of the story.

U.S. News is not data at all.

Actually, it is data because there's actually a methodology there that they use to come up with their numbers.  You can argue about the quality of their methodology and whether it actually leads to useful conclusions, but you can't argue that it's actual data.  

they do give bar passage rate a whopping 2% consideration in the rankings.

Here for example, you're not arguing that the bar passage data is not data; you're just arguing about their methodology, i.e. you think it should be worth more than 2%.  That's different from saying it's not data.

And as I've said elsewhere, bar passage isn't all that relevant in terms of ranking schools at the very top, because they're not trying to teach people how to pass the bar, and year-to-year variations in their bar passage rate relative to each other don't really reflect year-to-year variation in their quality relative to each other.  Maybe for law schools that aren't at the very top level it would make sense to weigh bar passage more heavily, but at the top ten schools they just expect you to learn all that stuff the month or two before the bar.

other measurements are completely subjective and based on unidentified people.  

People's opinions are subjective, that's true.  On the other hand, when you aggregate a large number of opinions on the relative value of something, you're probably going to get something close to the actual value of the thing.  Or so says the theory behind the stock market, anyway.  

You are correct that they need to give a better idea of whom they're asking though.

Then acceptance and placement rates are so blatantly tweeked by every school that it is not even worth mentioning.

Every school, really?  Aren't you just generalizing based on some anecdotes you've heard?  You think that Harvard and Yale are tweaking their placement numbers?

You should use your common sense when picking a school, if you your choices are between Stanford and Williamette go to Stanford.

The only reason why this works, as I've explained before, is because common sense and the data both point in the same direction: Stanford is superior to Williamette on most measures, so the data tells you the same thing that your common sense does.  In your other example, there was some data indicating that the transfer made sense, i.e. the destination school's higher ranking, but on the other hand there was probably also data arguing against the transfer, i.e. a minimal difference in terms of job placement.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 22, 2010, 09:38:24 PM
then what do they teach?

Mostly, they talk about why the law is the way it is, rather than what it actually is.

The idea is that the latter is just memorization, and so can be learned fairly easily.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 22, 2010, 09:41:43 PM
so"philosophy"....basicly they BS instead of teaching you the facts. gotcha.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: the white rabbit on April 22, 2010, 09:43:45 PM
so"philosophy"....basicly they BS instead of teaching you the facts. gotcha.

Your knee-jerk disparaging attitude is funny.  :)

But yes.  I mean why waste time on the easy stuff?  I mean it's all written down.  ;)
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: CJScalia on April 23, 2010, 01:52:40 AM
so"philosophy"....basicly they BS instead of teaching you the facts. gotcha.

I do understand that you're doing your very best to be a troll, but I have to say, you're starting to be a living, talking, breathing confirmation about every stereotype and joke I've ever heard about Cooley.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: CooleyGrad on April 23, 2010, 12:10:48 PM
so"philosophy"....basicly they BS instead of teaching you the facts. gotcha.

I do understand that you're doing your very best to be a troll, but I have to say, you're starting to be a living, talking, breathing confirmation about every stereotype and joke I've ever heard about Cooley.

They don't even go to cooley...
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: Mr. Hart on April 23, 2010, 01:21:16 PM
so"philosophy"....basicly they BS instead of teaching you the facts. gotcha.

I do understand that you're doing your very best to be a troll, but I have to say, you're starting to be a living, talking, breathing confirmation about every stereotype and joke I've ever heard about Cooley.

 :D does not go to Cooley. He is just posting flames.

Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 23, 2010, 02:24:42 PM
name one thing that I said which has been impossible to be true and could only be a "flame"?  ???
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 23, 2010, 03:51:34 PM
please we all know that you are just some punk "michigan" student hopeing to transfer to our shinny new building in annarbor and leave your shame behind you. It's ok, we'll get rid of the brainwashing they did to you son, it's all going to be ok......your safe now.... :'(

so"philosophy"....basicly they BS instead of teaching you the facts. gotcha.

I do understand that you're doing your very best to be a troll, but I have to say, you're starting to be a living, talking, breathing confirmation about every stereotype and joke I've ever heard about Cooley.

 :D does not go to Cooley. He is just posting flames.


Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: wyatth on April 25, 2010, 04:19:58 PM
Another note on bar passage rates: It would only make sense to use that as a factor for schools in the same state. Schools in different states should not be compared to each other for Bar passage %... CA is notoriously hard, so a CA school with a few % lower pass rate than a school in an easier state is not that indicative.. My opinion, anyway.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 25, 2010, 04:26:34 PM
How many bars are there in the US anyways? Someone told me that not every state even has one.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: bigs5068 on May 18, 2010, 03:52:59 PM
Yea every state has one and I didn't know this, but if you pass one the easiest I imagine being South or North Dakota you can do federal law in any state. I had an interview with JAG and the guy that interviewed told me he wanted to be in JAG and took the South Dakota Bar, because he heard it was the easiest to pass and doing that he is able to be a JAG anywhere and he works in California now. He said the same thing applies to the DOJ, Department of Labor, any federal organization.  I had no idea about that, but it is a pretty clever way to get around taking the CA bar, which is by far the hardest.
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 18, 2010, 07:34:08 PM
Do you think the peurto rico one is in spanish? What is an anglo like me wanted to take it?
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: LearnedCortex on June 05, 2010, 11:11:59 AM
The highest USNWR rankings are true self-fulfilling prophesies.  Add two pinches of real geniuses, a pinch of "feel good" students from sympatheic backgrounds, a convincingly high number of incidental "statistical" geniuses who (for one reason or another) rocked the LSATs/uGPAs, and top it all off with the creamy froth of well-heeled legacies who don't fall into the first or third aforementioned categories.
    Next, tally the opinions/perceptions of the thoroughly entrenched and established.   
            Along the way, let us disregard expenses beyond the scope of the process:
                    -Private high school guidance counselor:  $25,000
                   -Charitable donation of family member 9 months before law school application:  $75,000-????
                  -Private LSAT tutoring:  $4000 and up
                  -Arranged dinner with the Dean of X law school 2 months before law school application: $100 meal + (insert quid pro quo here)
The results? Priceless.  "Meritocracy Light"   

It is, of course, in the nature of society to manifest all forms of nepotism, just as it is in the nature of capitalist societies to both woo and revolve around wealth.  One might as well ask the sky to stop being blue.  But that doesn't mean I have to drink the koolaid and succumb to the temptation of projecting innate talent and superiority, by default, on those who emerge from pedigreed law schools. 

Bud Fox: This is really a nice club, Mr. Gekko.
Gordon Gekko: Yeah, not bad for a City College boy. I bought my way in, now all these Ivy league schmucks are sucking my kneecaps
               
Those who care to may freely underestimate me--I go to Brooklyn Law School.  But several years from now, in the heat of litigation, you do so at your own risk.     
Title: Re: US NEWS RANKINGS leak (2011)
Post by: the white rabbit on June 05, 2010, 11:59:59 AM
The highest USNWR rankings are true self-fulfilling prophesies.  Add two pinches of real geniuses, a pinch of "feel good" students from sympatheic backgrounds, a convincingly high number of incidental "statistical" geniuses who (for one reason or another) rocked the LSATs/uGPAs, and top it all off with the creamy froth of well-heeled legacies who don't fall into the first or third aforementioned categories.
    Next, tally the opinions/perceptions of the thoroughly entrenched and established.   
            Along the way, let us disregard expenses beyond the scope of the process:
                    -Private high school guidance counselor:  $25,000
                   -Charitable donation of family member 9 months before law school application:  $75,000-????
                  -Private LSAT tutoring:  $4000 and up
                  -Arranged dinner with the Dean of X law school 2 months before law school application: $100 meal + (insert quid pro quo here)
The results? Priceless.  "Meritocracy Light"   

It is, of course, in the nature of society to manifest all forms of nepotism, just as it is in the nature of capitalist societies to both woo and revolve around wealth.  One might as well ask the sky to stop being blue.  But that doesn't mean I have to drink the koolaid and succumb to the temptation of projecting innate talent and superiority, by default, on those who emerge from pedigreed law schools. 

Bud Fox: This is really a nice club, Mr. Gekko.
Gordon Gekko: Yeah, not bad for a City College boy. I bought my way in, now all these Ivy league schmucks are sucking my kneecaps
               
Those who care to may freely underestimate me--I go to Brooklyn Law School.  But several years from now, in the heat of litigation, you do so at your own risk.     

I agree that being rich and connected helps in the process, but I think the majority of folks who are at the top schools don't have such ridiculous advantages.  I certainly didn't have any of the "expenses beyond the scope of the process" that you described.

Also, I would avoid making statements like your last line about what will happen in a few years.  Basically what you're saying is, "I'll show you!"  It makes you look a little silly.  If you're going to become really good, just go ahead and do that and people will respect you for it.  On the other hand, saying you're going to become really good before you actually do won't earn you any points.