Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses => Topic started by: barryb on April 03, 2010, 07:38:11 PM

Title: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: barryb on April 03, 2010, 07:38:11 PM
Okay im a canadian student who really didn't have really good grades so im going to  be applying for law school in the u.s because in Canada the law schools are just too competitive. My gpa is 2.9 and my LSAT is a 156. Can you guys tell me what law schools i might have a chance at? Furthermore people told me that Cooley University is lenient for entrance but it has a bad reputation.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: MorningStar on April 03, 2010, 09:24:40 PM
It's all cost benefit.  It is very likely that, especially as a non-citizen, the cost to attend Cooley - 3 years and $70,000+ -  will exceed the benefits.  Obviously if you can overcome the odds, all power to you.  I'm sure bigs can point out more than a couple that have.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 03, 2010, 09:54:11 PM
Largest Lawschool in the nation, largest library and better than most T-1s just view the Rateings section on their page to see for yourself.  ;)   

Okay im a canadian student who really didn't have really good grades so im going to  be applying for law school in the u.s because in Canada the law schools are just too competitive. My gpa is 2.9 and my LSAT is a 156. Can you guys tell me what law schools i might have a chance at? Furthermore people told me that Cooley University is lenient for entrance but it has a bad reputation.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 04, 2010, 09:52:32 AM
Guy, I'd be offended if I wasn't so flattered.

Don't listen to the jackass comments, I worked under two guys that went to Cooley who were doing quite will for themselves. Obviously, you need to do a reality check and know that if you go to Cooley nobody is going to roll the red carpet out for you, but the truth is nobody rolls out the carpet for anybody except maybe for Harvard or Yale. The reality is law school what you make of it.  If you go to Cooley or Harvard you will learn the same law. The UCC, Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, or elements of negligence don't change no matter where you learn them.    
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: SASS on April 04, 2010, 02:15:19 PM
Don't listen to the jackass comments, I worked under two guys that went to Cooley who were doing quite will for themselves. Obviously, you need to do a reality check and know that if you go to Cooley nobody is going to roll the red carpet out for you, but the truth is nobody rolls out the carpet for anybody except maybe for Harvard or Yale. The reality is law school is what you make of it.  If you go to Cooley or Harvard you will learn the same law. The UCC, Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, or elements of negligence don't change no matter where you learn them.    

Yes, there is Harvard and Yale and then there are the rest of the schools.  Cooley = NYU Law, they all learn the same stuff anyway.  This is absurd.  Law school is not simply what you make of it.  Your options are extremely limited not going to a good law school.  T1 is safe and some regional schools well respected in their regions  Thinking you can attend just any t4 and be ok is a risk.  I know because I went to a T4 and transferred to a t20 school.  The difference is remarkable in every aspect of your education.  People making flowery statements about how "law school is what you make of it" are speaking generally and are inaccurate. Don't waste your money on a school that is a joke.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: SASS on April 04, 2010, 04:30:02 PM
You can't kind of disproved your whole point, because you went to a tier 4 and apparently made the most of it there and transferred to a really good school. 

I am unsure what you mean by this sentence, I think there is a typo, however I think you mean I contradict myself?  I disagree.  What I am saying is that the only schools worth attending are the T1 schools and some of the various regional schools that are respected.  Please don't think I would ever recommend to someone to plan on the transfer route.  True, I did make the most out of my t4 experience but that was the only good thing about the school: it was a stepping stone.  However, I am very lucky.  Most of my classmates (the rest of the lower 95%) are stuck there or failed out.  It is very risky to plan on transferring, I would never suggest someone enter a school with that in mind.  Further, if a schools biggest contribution to its students is that if you do well you can transfer, it has serious problems.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: SASS on April 04, 2010, 04:44:37 PM
You can't kind of disproved your whole point, because you went to a tier 4 and apparently made the most of it there and transferred to a really good school.  

Obviously, Cooley is not Harvard nobody is arguing that. They are not all the same, but any ABA school teaches you the same thing. The classes are the same the textbooks are the same. I know, because I have friends at Stanford and Hastings and we are all taking the same classes learning the same things. Well my friend have more opportunities open to him when he graduates from Stanford. Obviously,he will is he guaranteed to have a great law career no. He is really smart and that is why he got into Stanford in the first place, but just going to Stanford is no guarantee of anything. What you do in the real world matters. Even in law school for example, does it matter what undergrad you went to? No it doesn't you don't right on your final I went to UCLA so I deserve an A. Perfect example is in my study group at school there are 5 of us. One guy went to Notre Dame, two went to Berkeley, I went to Chico State, and the other guy went to some 7th Adventist school in Tennessee.

Me and the guy from Teneesee were on the Dean's list and not the guys that went to those really good undergrads. Obviously, your school helps, but your performance is what matters.  Look to the NCAA tournament even, Butler is the f'ing finals. They beat all the elite programs and Kansas can sit around telling themselves they were ranked #1, but it really doesn't matter because they didn't perform.


I like the NCAA comparison but it is not accurate.  The difference is Butler was given the opportunity it compete in the first place.  Also, Butler had a good program, good players, good students that gave it its opportunity.  Cooley doesn't have all the pieces to make it good.  If you go to a school that is not reputable, some doors are closed to you.  That is just the way it is.  I don't think this is fair, it is true though. 

True, you learn the same things from the same books.  However, your profs are not as good (my experience tells me so) and your in class conversation is remarkably different (also something I know from experience).  Students at lower ranked schools get a different eduction because of all the little things that make the schools different.   

There are FEW people who will be succeed despite a Cooley education.  It is not the norm.  Saying the law is what you make of it is an empty statement, holding little value.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: 3ebfan511 on April 07, 2010, 03:52:51 PM
cooley just ranked like 146 on the new superlawyers 2010 list, meaning they had more "superlawyers" then about 40 or 50 other schools, even though they are about the least selective, meaning the ones who go and dont flunk out must be getting at least a decent education there and are at least capable lawyers obviously.   I am from philly/NJ where all the schools are like top notch and too hard for me to get into, except widener which is the only 4th tier in the area, so all the decent students who couldnt get into temple, nova, penn, rutgers (all like top 50 schools etc.) can possibly go to widener, and they just ranked 110 on that same list.  pretty good for a 4th tier.   I agree that 4th tiers are fine for certain people and situations as long as you do the work. 
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 07, 2010, 08:39:52 PM
Cooley rules period!  :)
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: daniellat on May 25, 2010, 04:40:21 PM
Quote
There are FEW people who will be succeed despite a Cooley education.  It is not the norm.  Saying the law is what you make of it is an empty statement, holding little value.


Could you elaborate on what you mean by "succeed"?  My goal is not to become a partner at a big law firm or a US Attorney...it's simply to become a lawyer and practice law.  I have to keep working full time, so Cooley's location near my job appeals to me, its schedule of 7 days a week classes year round, part time, appeals to me, and also the fact that they gave me a full ride appeals to me.  But are you saying that with a Cooley degree, it's not even possible to earn a living as a regular lawyer (i.e. no one would want to hire me to even write a will or draft a document)?  Thank you for your input. 
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: sonofapickle on May 25, 2010, 05:39:46 PM
Largest Lawschool in the nation, largest library and better than most T-1s just view the Rateings section on their page to see for yourself.  ;)   

Largest student body because the school accepts just about anyone. Largest library because of the amount of students it accepts, it generates large sums of money. Better than most T-1s due to them ranking themselves. Lmfao, you Cooley students are just delusional.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: the white rabbit on May 25, 2010, 07:46:50 PM
My goal is not to become a partner at a big law firm or a US Attorney...it's simply to become a lawyer and practice law. 

Without saying anything about Cooley (I frankly only know of its existence because of the internet), I will say that even the rather modest goal of becoming a lawyer and practicing law is surprisingly difficult to achieve.  Unfortunately.   :-\
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: Mr. Hart on May 25, 2010, 07:48:18 PM
Quote
There are FEW people who will be succeed despite a Cooley education.  It is not the norm.  Saying the law is what you make of it is an empty statement, holding little value.


Could you elaborate on what you mean by "succeed"?  My goal is not to become a partner at a big law firm or a US Attorney...it's simply to become a lawyer and practice law.  I have to keep working full time, so Cooley's location near my job appeals to me, its schedule of 7 days a week classes year round, part time, appeals to me, and also the fact that they gave me a full ride appeals to me.  But are you saying that with a Cooley degree, it's not even possible to earn a living as a regular lawyer (i.e. no one would want to hire me to even write a will or draft a document)?  Thank you for your input. 

I spent my 1L year at Cooley, did well, and I am currently in the process of transferring.  It is very possible to earn a decent living as an attorney with a Cooley degree, especially if you stay in Michigan. 
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 25, 2010, 07:48:39 PM
You show up, you pass. You take one test a year per class(on average) and you score as low as 30% in a lot of them and still pass. How is that hard? ???

My goal is not to become a partner at a big law firm or a US Attorney...it's simply to become a lawyer and practice law. 

Without saying anything about Cooley (I frankly only know of its existence because of the internet), I will say that even the rather modest goal of becoming a lawyer and practicing law is surprisingly difficult to achieve.  Unfortunately.   :-\
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: daniellat on May 26, 2010, 03:29:33 PM
Quote
Without saying anything about Cooley (I frankly only know of its existence because of the internet), I will say that even the rather modest goal of becoming a lawyer and practicing law is surprisingly difficult to achieve.  Unfortunately.   


Thanks for the encouragement   ;)

Quote
I spent my 1L year at Cooley, did well, and I am currently in the process of transferring.  It is very possible to earn a decent living as an attorney with a Cooley degree, especially if you stay in Michigan. 


That's good to know, thanks.  Did you find it easy to transfer your credits to the new institution? 
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cmd758 on May 26, 2010, 10:15:01 PM
I went to high school with someone who just graduated from Cooley and he met his fiance there. She graduated in 2009 and got a job in the prosecutor's office in New Brunswick, NJ in September. Also, Weidner is another possibility. They have a campus in Harrisburg, PA and in Delaware. Duquesne University in Pittsburgh might let you in. Your GPA is kind of low for them, but I know someone who just got in with a an initial 149 and 152 retake LSAT.

Final possibility off the top of my head- University of Detroit Mercy. They have low stats. Look at the Official Guide on lsat.org. That will give you more of an idea about your chances at certain schools.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: the white rabbit on May 29, 2010, 01:18:40 PM
Quote
Without saying anything about Cooley (I frankly only know of its existence because of the internet), I will say that even the rather modest goal of becoming a lawyer and practicing law is surprisingly difficult to achieve.  Unfortunately.   


Thanks for the encouragement   ;)

Sorry to be a downer.  I'm just trying to manage people's expectations.  It's rough out here.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: sonofapickle on May 30, 2010, 06:54:18 PM
I am sure it is rough. It is always good to have people that are family in the business because you're a shoe-in at a good firm.

On topic, you will never see me step foot into Cooley law. I do believe it is that bad.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cvtheis on May 31, 2010, 04:33:06 PM
If you are going to TMC you should REALLY reconsider going to law school.  I am alumn, its not that bad of a school, but it is superceded by it's reputation and image in the legal community.  It is very difficult to find a legal job and some very bad mojo to put yourself $150K in debt for a law degree that really is not worth that much anymore.  Also, talk to a lot of lawyers, will find that not a lot truly LOVE what they do.  Use your undergrad degree to do something that actually benefits humanity.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: daniellat on May 31, 2010, 05:40:08 PM
I hear what you all are saying about how bad the employment prospects can be.  I'm conflicted, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 01, 2010, 11:06:21 AM
that and the fact you'd leave in a wheelchair..... :'(

I am sure it is rough. It is always good to have people that are family in the business because you're a shoe-in at a good firm.

On topic, you will never see me step foot into Cooley law. I do believe it is that bad.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: the white rabbit on June 02, 2010, 05:45:55 AM
I think if you want to be lawyer you should go to law school, jobs are not easy to find in any industry. 

Disagree for the same reasons I've stated elsewhere: your decision should not be based solely based on what you want

And it may be true about jobs not being easy to find in any industry, but not every industry requires for entry the kind of money that law schools require.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: the white rabbit on June 02, 2010, 08:51:42 PM
...working 30-40 years as an attorney will likely cover the 100K debt you go into....

This is assuming you are able to find employment as a lawyer (or manage to run your own practice) for 30-40 years.  No small feat, depending on where you start out.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 02, 2010, 09:27:45 PM
even if you dont get a job as a lawyer, even if you bomb the bar and never get licensed. You get can get jobs with a JD that you couldnt without it.


...working 30-40 years as an attorney will likely cover the 100K debt you go into....

This is assuming you are able to find employment as a lawyer (or manage to run your own practice) for 30-40 years.  No small feat, depending on where you start out.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: the white rabbit on June 03, 2010, 03:25:34 AM
even if you dont get a job as a lawyer, even if you bomb the bar and never get licensed. You get can get jobs with a JD that you couldnt without it.

Substantiate this.

Yep there is a chance it might go terribly for you certainly.

You make it sound like failing to have a 30-40 year career as a lawyer is a freak occurrence.

The majority of people with J.D.'s used their degree in some capacity in the legal profession and the majority of law school graduates end up working as lawyers somewhere. Are there law school graduates that don't pass the bar or even if they do pass the bar never get a job. Sure of course there are as in any profession. 

I didn't say anything about using their degree "in some capacity in the legal profession" or "end up working as lawyers somewhere" (although even that is something that you're throwing out there without any data to back it up).  I said that a 30-40 year career as a lawyer is no small feat.  There are large numbers of lawyers who leave the profession well before that.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 03, 2010, 08:45:51 AM
BL,  its not that hard man. I've seen junior college and even 4year university profs who had JD/MD,etc who never practiced a day in their life teaching the basic prereq courses relative to their degrees.

Plus if someone wants a BA in BusAdmin,HR,etc for a managment gig and you show up with a JD.......yeah I think they'll find you qualified.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cvtheis on June 03, 2010, 09:21:24 AM
THAT is a VERY small category of jobs (personally I am having trouble thinking of any) and probably not even worth considering in the equation unless ones greatest aspiration is to be a paralegal...

even if you dont get a job as a lawyer, even if you bomb the bar and never get licensed. You get can get jobs with a JD that you couldnt without it.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cvtheis on June 03, 2010, 09:35:52 AM
Bottom line:
1) yes it is difficult to find a job anywhere, JD or not.
2) arguably JDs are having a more difficult time finding JD-type work compared with non-JDs looking for non-JD work.
3) Regardless of number 2 - (generally speaking) why put yourself 150K in debt if you are not going to improve chances of getting a job?  Obviously if you have a worthless humanities degree but get yourself into a Tier 1 school this rule would not apply -- but why do it for a T3 or T4 degree?

I WANT a Mercedes Benz SL.  I COULD put myself in an unreasonable debt situation to get it... does that mean I SHOULD?

Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 03, 2010, 09:45:48 AM
anything that you can do with an MBA you do (and be prefered over) with a JD.

THAT is a VERY small category of jobs (personally I am having trouble thinking of any) and probably not even worth considering in the equation unless ones greatest aspiration is to be a paralegal...

even if you dont get a job as a lawyer, even if you bomb the bar and never get licensed. You get can get jobs with a JD that you couldnt without it.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cvtheis on June 03, 2010, 03:10:04 PM
An MBA is MUCH cheaper to get and more versatile.  Still cannot think of a non-legal profession where a JD in-and-of-itself clearly serves one better than an MBA - especially a T3 JD.

anything that you can do with an MBA you do (and be prefered over) with a JD.

THAT is a VERY small category of jobs (personally I am having trouble thinking of any) and probably not even worth considering in the equation unless ones greatest aspiration is to be a paralegal...

even if you dont get a job as a lawyer, even if you bomb the bar and never get licensed. You get can get jobs with a JD that you couldnt without it.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cvtheis on June 03, 2010, 09:22:00 PM
*sigh*
DA/Public Defender = "lawyer"
Judge - first be a practicing "lawyer" (generally)
"working at the state bar" - Seriously?  doing what? Thats worth $150K in school debt?
"working at a law school" - as a prfessor?  Generally practice as "lawyers" first.  Cleaning toilets - OK our T3 degrees might get us that.
"litigate a K case" = "lawyer"

So again - where are these non-lawyer careers for JDs that you cannot get without one?  Why is bombing the bar no big deal?


Yes a non-legal profession is better served by an MBA. An MBA will be much more useful in business and a law degree will be useful for a legal career. A M.D. or R.N. will be useful in the medical field.

Here is a list of jobs unobtainable without a J.D.

District Attorney or Public Defender offices tend to prefer a J.D. over an MBA as an MBA would completely useless to either of those departments. So those are two jobs where a J.D. would be better than an MBA.

I am also pretty you can't become a Judge without a J.D.

If you wanted to work for the State Bar again they would prefer a J.D.

working at a law school again J.D. preferred.

If you want to litigate a contract case again J.D. will be a lot more helpful than an MBA.

J.A.G. tends to prefer J.D.'s over MBA's

I could continue writing a long list where a J.D. combined with passing the bar would be better than an MBA. Yes an MBA is cheaper, but it does not certify you to do anything. At least a J.D. combined with passing the bar gives you the option to litigate an MBA does not certify you to do anything.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 03, 2010, 09:27:50 PM
already gave some examples. As for an MBA being "more versatile" thats a lie that washout losers who couldn't get into a real degree tell themselves.
An MBA compared to a JD reminds me of a GED compared to a highschool diploma. You do it if you are too lazy or incompetent to do the real thing.

An MBA is MUCH cheaper to get and more versatile.  Still cannot think of a non-legal profession where a JD in-and-of-itself clearly serves one better than an MBA - especially a T3 JD.

anything that you can do with an MBA you do (and be prefered over) with a JD.

THAT is a VERY small category of jobs (personally I am having trouble thinking of any) and probably not even worth considering in the equation unless ones greatest aspiration is to be a paralegal...

even if you dont get a job as a lawyer, even if you bomb the bar and never get licensed. You get can get jobs with a JD that you couldnt without it.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cvtheis on June 04, 2010, 08:36:31 AM
Looked back at your posts on this thread and did not see any examples supporting the versatility of a JD beyond legal careers.

Comparing a JD and MBA is comparing apples and oranges (and wondering why this discussion is germain to anything).  One generally goes to law school to be one thing - a lawyer; one gets an MBA and studies economics and finance for a wide array of business applications.  Each degree is tailored for totally different purposes and saying an MBA is for washout losers is just silly, as is trying to draw parallels between careers for JDs and MBAs.  Yes lawyers often think they can (and should) do everything, but to think the JD curriculum is comparable to the MBA curriculum when it comes to employment outside of law makes no sense.

already gave some examples. As for an MBA being "more versatile" thats a lie that washout losers who couldn't get into a real degree tell themselves.
An MBA compared to a JD reminds me of a GED compared to a highschool diploma. You do it if you are too lazy or incompetent to do the real thing.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cvtheis on June 04, 2010, 08:42:35 AM
BTW - how often do you change your name, and why?

already gave some examples. As for an MBA being "more versatile" thats a lie that washout losers who couldn't get into a real degree tell themselves.
An MBA compared to a JD reminds me of a GED compared to a highschool diploma. You do it if you are too lazy or incompetent to do the real thing.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 04, 2010, 09:00:51 AM
what do you mean, I've ALWAYS had this name!....    >:(     

or pure whogivesafuck, I forget which one.

BTW - how often do you change your name, and why?

already gave some examples. As for an MBA being "more versatile" thats a lie that washout losers who couldn't get into a real degree tell themselves.
An MBA compared to a JD reminds me of a GED compared to a highschool diploma. You do it if you are too lazy or incompetent to do the real thing.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cvtheis on June 04, 2010, 09:46:07 AM
or the >:} or whatever, then doctorgurkin something-or-other...

what do you mean, I've ALWAYS had this name!....    >:(     

or pure whogivesafuck, I forget which one.

BTW - how often do you change your name, and why?

already gave some examples. As for an MBA being "more versatile" thats a lie that washout losers who couldn't get into a real degree tell themselves.
An MBA compared to a JD reminds me of a GED compared to a highschool diploma. You do it if you are too lazy or incompetent to do the real thing.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 04, 2010, 03:19:33 PM
bigs, did you mean to add anything to his quote? ???
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: the white rabbit on June 05, 2010, 12:07:06 PM
Plus if someone wants a BA in BusAdmin,HR,etc for a managment gig and you show up with a JD.......yeah I think they'll find you qualified.

I think that MBA's are overrated, but I don't think JD's get anywhere near the level of respect you suggest here.  Plus, I asked you to substantiate, not speculate.

BL,  its not that hard man. I've seen junior college and even 4year university profs who had JD/MD,etc who never practiced a day in their life teaching the basic prereq courses relative to their degrees.

This is better in terms of substantiating.  But I need to ask, these folks had JD's and that was a job qualification?  Were there people who had similar job titles/positions who did not have JD's?  Do you know of people who were rejected for these job titles/positions because they did not have JD's?

All questions that we need to have answered before we can say that they got these jobs because they had JD's.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 05, 2010, 03:38:41 PM
you ask if a JD would be required, my responce is that an MBA is NEVER required(no license in any way) a highschol dropout can do an MBA job.
If you have some nerd with an MBA or some hot trailor skank who knows how to work it, who do you think gets the job?
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: the white rabbit on June 05, 2010, 03:44:35 PM
you ask if a JD would be required, my responce is that an MBA is NEVER required(no license in any way) a highschol dropout can do an MBA job.
If you have some nerd with an MBA or some hot trailor skank who knows how to work it, who do you think gets the job?

We weren't talking about comparisons to MBA's at the time you made the statement that I asked you to substantiate.  You said there are lots of jobs that you can get with a JD that you cannot without a JD.  I want you to explain which ones.  (And it sounds like in the example you just gave, the JD wouldn't make a difference either.)
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 05, 2010, 06:38:46 PM
I dont much care what you want lady. Deal with it.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: the white rabbit on June 06, 2010, 07:10:22 AM
I dont much care what you want lady. Deal with it.

Well then you could have just said no in the first place.  :P
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 06, 2010, 08:10:37 AM
know :P

I dont much care what you want lady. Deal with it.

Well then you could have just said no in the first place.  :P
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: Julie Fern on June 09, 2010, 07:26:32 AM
numbnuts.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: JDGuy86 on June 14, 2010, 09:27:35 PM
I see a lot of people doing cost analysis about going to Cooley Law. For me its about more than just making a large salary. Does anyone actually want to practice law? Advocate a cause? Provide solid legal advice to a client in the community you grew up in? ..These are things non corporate lawyers do. I am going to Cooley Law in  a few months (on scholarship, but really its pretty cheap anyways compared to other private law schools).
I mean really.. put cooley up to other 4th tier schools and its not that bad. I'd say its just as good as any other lower tiered school. And of the private lower tiered ones its probably in the top of the lower tiered ones.
True.. law school is expensive, you will have to work and network to be a successful lawyer, and I'd really advise throwing some passion into your career more than a numbers game. If its about numbers, YES you should get an MBA.

To answer the question.. Is Cooley Law that bad? I don't think so.. I'm going there! Its just as "bad" as any other lower tiered school. Good luck to whoever started the post!
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: john4040 on June 15, 2010, 12:32:18 PM
To answer your question directly, it depends on what you want.

If you're not adverse to taking on $150,000 in debt for the prospect of no legal job, or a salary of $40,000 or less after graduation, go to Cooley .
If you're looking to impress laypersons, go to Cooley.
If you MUST be a lawyer and are willing to live in poverty for the remainder of your life, go to Cooley.

There you have it.  You'll be $150,000 in debt, living in poverty, but at least you can tell your friends that you're "a real lawyer" (assuming you pass the bar).  You will also be able to masturbate to the fact that you do "intellectually stimulating" will drafting, personal injury work, and felon in possession cases.  Last but not least, you will undoubtedly feel superior to your peers and bask in warmth of the Cooley Rankings.  After all,  it is YOUR LAW SCHOOL, Mr. Cooley Grad, THAT IS RANKED #12 IN THE WORLD (in a ranking system based almost exclusively on the size of the school's library).
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: john4040 on June 15, 2010, 02:06:46 PM
Outing people is not cool.

-Moderator
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: nealric on June 15, 2010, 02:25:32 PM
Quote
many, if not all of the top 6 schools, have been known as Ivies prior to the formation of the rankings.

Sorry to quibble, but the "Ivy League" is a sports conference, not a listing of elite schools. Three of the top 6 (Stanford, Chicago, and NYU) are not, and have never been Ivy league schools.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: john4040 on June 15, 2010, 02:29:40 PM
* Post edited above.*
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: the white rabbit on June 15, 2010, 05:43:52 PM
Nevertheless, schools such as Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Chicago, Penn, Columbia, and NYU are thought of as "Ivies" by the general public.

I'm pretty sure that this is not true, because the general public probably has no clue that Chicago and NYU are good law schools.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: the white rabbit on June 15, 2010, 05:48:22 PM
For me its about more than just making a large salary. Does anyone actually want to practice law? Advocate a cause? Provide solid legal advice to a client in the community you grew up in?

Just because you want to do something doesn't make it a good idea.  Maybe this doesn't apply to you, but let me ask you one simple question: how much money will you owe when you graduate from law school?
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: john4040 on June 15, 2010, 05:51:52 PM
Nevertheless, schools such as Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Chicago, Penn, Columbia, and NYU are thought of as "Ivies" by the general public.

I'm pretty sure that this is not true, because the general public probably has no clue that Chicago and NYU are good law schools.

Not here to quibble with whether or not the general public refers to these two particular schools as Ivies.  My point above still stands. 

Maybe if I edited my post everyone here could separate the forest from the trees, and address the substance of my argument if they disagree with it.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: the white rabbit on June 15, 2010, 06:09:57 PM
My apologies.  I'm a compulsive quibbler.  I know it's a bad habit, and I'm trying to quit.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: JDGuy86 on June 15, 2010, 08:24:01 PM
To answer your question directly, it depends on what you want.

If you're not adverse to taking on $150,000 in debt for the prospect of no legal job, or a salary of $40,000 or less after graduation, go to Cooley .
If you're looking to impress laypersons, go to Cooley.
If you MUST be a lawyer and are willing to live in poverty for the remainder of your life, go to Cooley.

There you have it.  You'll be $150,000 in debt, living in poverty, but at least you can tell your friends that you're "a real lawyer" (assuming you pass the bar).  You will also be able to masturbate to the fact that you do "intellectually stimulating" will drafting, personal injury work, and felon in possession cases.  Last but not least, you will undoubtedly feel superior to your peers and bask in warmth of the Cooley Rankings.  After all,  it is YOUR LAW SCHOOL, Mr. Cooley Grad, THAT IS RANKED #12 IN THE WORLD (in a ranking system based almost exclusively on the size of the school's library).


150k in debt.. not so much.. most people going to cooley get a scholarship. I'm going part time and Cooley law will only cost about half of that amount for me. I already work with a nonprofit, and plan to continue working in public service but in a legal role.

The cooley rankings.. c'mon everyone knows that is bs. People who go to cooley dont even give that merit (including myself).

And career prospects. Its really not something you can predict. Yeah, people from schools outside the top tier will have to work a lot harder to network and find a job -this is a given. I will take a stab at it though- From my conversations with practicing lawyers, judges,and professors law school pretty much gets you your first job. After that, employment is based off experience and performance rather than where you went to school or academic credentials.

I'm making this my last post arguing for cooley. I'm going there, and if you plan things and budget things appropriately you can make Cooley Law work for you. Its just as good as any other lower tiered school, and it provides a great bit of flexibility especially if you plan to work in the mid west.

If you go to cooley you can be a lawyer despite what the elitist posters here proclaim. Their 10,000 plus alumni will verify this lol. Good luck, and future Cooley trashers well have fun maybe you can be my paralegal one day! ha!
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: john4040 on June 15, 2010, 09:50:45 PM
Obviously Harvard is a good school and the elite schools are properly ranked, but what is the difference between Gonzaga and Hofstra at the end of the day. Also you should probably not waste your time googling and disclosing people's personal info when you should be "allegedly" working as a Federal Clerk either.
*  *  *  *
If you really have nothing better to do than research and disclose personal info about me then I guess do what you got to do.

Don't worry, it took all of 5 minutes.  By posting the link in your sig, you effectively outted yourself.

No I do not make a million dollars a year and neither do 1L's at Harvard and I imagine you don't either if you are spending time googling me when you should be working. Some people from Cooley make money and some from UCLA don't.

You still don't get it, do you?  The average starting salary upon graduation from Cooley is $52,400.  Let's adjust that for the # of people who actually reported their salary, and you'll probably come up with a figure lower than $40,000.  Even assuming that your salary starts at $40,000 and it will increase over the years, it will still be nearly impossible to repay your $150K loans + accrued interest within 20-30 years.  Thus, although it may be true that "Cooley is not going to ruin your life intentionally", a ruined life is the inevitable consequence of graduating from Cooley without a scholarship.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: john4040 on June 15, 2010, 10:06:19 PM

150k in debt.. not so much.. most people going to cooley get a scholarship. I'm going part time and Cooley law will only cost about half of that amount for me. I already work with a nonprofit, and plan to continue working in public service but in a legal role.

Although my post above was somewhat sarcastic, you've just confirmed my thoughts to a large extent.  High debt (although you attended with a scholarship - which not everyone does) and work at a nonprofit.

The cooley rankings.. c'mon everyone knows that is bs. People who go to cooley dont even give that merit (including myself).

Apparently bigs5068 thinks they have merit.

And career prospects. Its really not something you can predict. Yeah, people from schools outside the top tier will have to work a lot harder to network and find a job -this is a given. I will take a stab at it though- From my conversations with practicing lawyers, judges,and professors law school pretty much gets you your first job. After that, employment is based off experience and performance rather than where you went to school or academic credentials.

I do believe that you can generally predict the career prospects from a given school by looking into its past employment history.  Also, I think that there is some truth to the notion that employers care less about where you went to school and your academic credentials after years of legal experience.  Nevertheless, I see many jobs being posted for partnership positions which require top grades at a top law school.

I'm making this my last post arguing for cooley. I'm going there, and if you plan things and budget things appropriately you can make Cooley Law work for you. Its just as good as any other lower tiered school, and it provides a great bit of flexibility especially if you plan to work in the mid west.

That's cool man.  At least you got a scholarship.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: the white rabbit on June 15, 2010, 10:33:57 PM
150k in debt.. not so much.. most people going to cooley get a scholarship. I'm going part time and Cooley law will only cost about half of that amount for me. I already work with a nonprofit, and plan to continue working in public service but in a legal role.

So $80k in debt, assuming you don't lose your scholarship (I assume it's contingent)?  What does that translate to in terms of minimum salary you'll need to service your debt + make ends meet?

Their 10,000 plus alumni will verify this lol.

This assumes that those alumni actually made it as lawyers.  We don't have data on that.

And for the record, I'm not trying to trash Cooley.  I'm just encouraging people to make thought-out decisions.  :)
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 16, 2010, 12:01:55 AM
There is no school better than cooley. Everyone else is just jealous of the bigkid on the block and pissed off that they rock while being less old than dirt like the other places. "Young punks now days didnt earn to be best yet....." :'(
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cvtheis on June 16, 2010, 07:25:19 AM
How many times can we make this argument, and how many ways can those hell-bent on goint to a T3/T4 try to refute the simple fact that wracking up huge debt with no improvement in job prospects makes no sense?  Have we even gotten acknowledgement of the IRREFUTIBLE FACT that the legal market is shrinking, and law schools are kicking out increased numbers of JDs?  We have seen the financial bubble burst, the housing bubble burst, and this is the law bubble bursting -- ignoring it does not change it.  I'm done.

For me its about more than just making a large salary. Does anyone actually want to practice law? Advocate a cause? Provide solid legal advice to a client in the community you grew up in?

Just because you want to do something doesn't make it a good idea.  Maybe this doesn't apply to you, but let me ask you one simple question: how much money will you owe when you graduate from law school?
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 16, 2010, 09:39:18 AM
apparently untill you cry yourself to sleep with your closed account,  :-X :'(

How many times can we make this argument, and how many ways can those hell-bent on goint to a T3/T4 try to refute the simple fact that wracking up huge debt with no improvement in job prospects makes no sense?  Have we even gotten acknowledgement of the IRREFUTIBLE FACT that the legal market is shrinking, and law schools are kicking out increased numbers of JDs?  We have seen the financial bubble burst, the housing bubble burst, and this is the law bubble bursting -- ignoring it does not change it.  I'm done.

For me its about more than just making a large salary. Does anyone actually want to practice law? Advocate a cause? Provide solid legal advice to a client in the community you grew up in?

Just because you want to do something doesn't make it a good idea.  Maybe this doesn't apply to you, but let me ask you one simple question: how much money will you owe when you graduate from law school?
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: trudawg on July 13, 2010, 12:57:48 PM
You guys constant bickering back n forth highlights one thing to someone like me looking at it from the outside. AGE.
I can see the maturity in the thinking from the posts I read. For the record not all of us JD bound students are solely interested in getting rich, making a high salary and having bragging rights.
For some of us, its truly about obtaining the knowledge needed to make the biggest difference in our respective communities. I am a non-traditional student who has already made 100k+ in the IT field, it's not about the money, its about having the opportunity to change the world around you as social engineer!
I am contemplating attending Cooley, have visited the campus, have talked to students, and while its true they do not have a good ranking the fact remains that they are an ABA accredited school, which will afford you entry into the BAR, plain and simple.
If you are not attending Cooley then worry about the school you are attending.

Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: Cicero on July 13, 2010, 01:27:31 PM
The ranking issue isn't only about making money. You say you want to make a big difference in your community. Some of those jobs that make a difference can be pretty competitive, such as working for the public defender's office. Many new lawyers want this type of job so that they can gain a lot of experience very quickly, especially in comparison to working at a large or medium firm. Some people may stay and others may leave after 3 years and go to a firm where they can make significantly more money. Coming from a higher ranked school will open more doors in these types of positions, unless you have some connections that you haven't listed.

(Note: I say this as someone transferring from T-4 to T-1 who has no big law ambitions and also wants to use her degree to help others.)
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: trudawg on July 13, 2010, 04:38:30 PM
We all read the disparaging statistics about students leaving law school having difficulties finding jobs. In fact the prospects for future lawyers are so dim (according to what you read), that going to law school period is a questionable endeavor if you hope to pay off loans and get a decent ROI.
If one was to listen to all this and take it to heart, there is no need to even try!
Your career whether you are a plumber or a newly BAR admitted Attorney your job prospects are based on your ability to sell yourself! I am a firm believer in the power of Networking, and honestly the saying its not WHAT you know, rather than WHO you know is the supreme truth!!
I don't care if you went to a NON accredited law school, if you know how to get out there and rub elbows with the movers and shakers you'll be fine.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: trudawg on July 13, 2010, 08:17:26 PM
On the real though, all sarcasm aside, life, school, career, family is what you make it! A brick and mortar institution cannot determine your future or your future potential, and if you let it then you were probably a failure long before you stepped foot on Cooley School of Law campus ;)
Big5068 I've checked you out on LSN and I can already tell your upbeat, positive, proactive demeanor is what makes you succeed, not where you attended law school, GPA, or what ever. Its the winning attitude that sets you apart from the negative energy attracting nay-sayers, as has been the case for myself in all my endeavors.
Negativity spreads like virus, and a perpetual positive attitude (not found in everybody) is the anti-body needed to fight it off.
With that being said, I want to wish all of you good luck with your schooling and careers!
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: Cicero on July 13, 2010, 08:43:22 PM
My comment about the rankings was in no way meant to be negative or to dissuade you from attending law school. It was meant to explain that there is some importance to the rankings and not just for people who want to make lots of money at big law firms. You can be a positive, proactive, hard worker and still be realistic about the challenges you will face graduating from a T-4 in a market with fewer jobs than lawyers to fill them. Wanting to go to a higher ranked law school doesn't mean you can't hack it at the lower ranked school. Why fight an uphill battle if you don't have to and can go to a higher ranked school? I know it isn't just lawyers facing a job shortage--latest stats are something like 1 job available for every 4 or 5 people out of work. So you can schmooze all you want, but it's not going to work for everyone, since there aren't enough legal jobs, or jobs in general, for everyone to have a job. I do hope that we are all successful at finding employment when we graduate, since we are going to have some loans to pay back. :)
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: trudawg on July 13, 2010, 10:09:22 PM
right on Cicero, I hear what you are saying and definitely think law school is something that one should put considerable thought into.  I had a few things stacked against me including my criminal record, and my LSAT score. I am just looking for an opportunity, and have been thankful that Cooley granted me that whether it be for their own financial gain, or a legitimate shot, it doesn't matter because I will succeed at the top of my class no doubt about it.
Just being here for ME is such a personal feat, such a triumph after what I've experienced in life that there is no way I would let it slip by.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: the white rabbit on July 14, 2010, 03:58:50 AM
Your career whether you are a plumber or a newly BAR admitted Attorney your job prospects are based on your ability to sell yourself! I am a firm believer in the power of Networking, and honestly the saying its not WHAT you know, rather than WHO you know is the supreme truth!!

Networking only works when you have something to offer the people with whom you're rubbing elbows.  Unfortunately, most aspiring young lawyers don't have much more to offer than thousands of other aspiring young lawyers.

And as for money, it's one thing to want to get rich.  It's another thing to be able to dig out from one's student debt load.  You can talk about wanting to make a difference in your community all you want.  If you're buried under so much debt that you need to take short-term but high-paying document review gigs just to service your payments, well you're probably not making much of a difference in your community, at least not as a lawyer.

If you've already made the kind of money that you can pay for most of law school yourself without having to borrow money, well the concern about student loans doesn't apply to you.  For a large number of students, this is not the case.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: trudawg on July 14, 2010, 02:09:12 PM
Debt, schmebt!
 LoL, again if one lets the amount of debt they owe dictate their professional future then chances are they weren't gong to succeed at the highest levels in the first place.
I guess for individuals that have never had any set-backs in life, whom have never experienced any uphill struggles, those who have never triumphed in the face of REAL adversity, and have afforded themselves with every opportunity to succeed that can possibly be given to an individual all of sudden being faced with a mountain of debt could potentially be a highly professional setback. But for the rest of us who have turned lemons into lemonade the glass is half full.
I honestly see why diversity in law school is so highly sought after, because of lot of law students tend to think the world revolves around the life that they have grown to know. There are those that have never been forced to see the world through a different lens, and as result think their lenses are the De facto way at viewing the world.
What may not work for you, could quite possibly be only thing that works for someone else.
And with the power of networking only being beneficial to those that are vastly different from their counterparts is actually true, but if you step out of law school and think you're no different from the rest of the pool of available lawyers then again you failed along time ago. Like I said, I don't care if I were a plumber, just graduating from trade school, its whats within ME that will make me succeed on top of what I've learned from school.  If you don't have that confidence, that upward mobility, that relentless ambition to succeed then simply embrace mediocrity and go on about your life
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: trudawg on July 14, 2010, 05:08:53 PM
Biggs..........real world wisdom like that cannot be taught in a classroom, it's life experiences that makes us wise enough to embrace real world challenges head on and triumph victoriously. It will come soon enough for most, but for some it will never come because they choose to isolate themselves in their own perspective worlds.
The greatest thing I've learned is the ability to engage and relate to others. I was once told that the most lasting powerful people submerge themselves in many, many different social circles. Aww but I digress, because we are getting into the real underpinnings of life, not just life in or after school.
I have been working for the past 20 years, and have had my fair share of ups and downs, and believe me having a JD from Cooley School of Law is the least bit of discrimination that I have or will face in life.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: the white rabbit on July 14, 2010, 08:16:39 PM
Debt, schmebt!

How profoundly irresponsible.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: trudawg on July 15, 2010, 12:54:52 AM
Debt, schmebt!

How profoundly irresponsible.

LoL, I'm glad you found something out of all that.


Again, good luck to you all.
-Trudawg
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: tryinLawSchool on July 17, 2010, 04:27:43 PM
Found this article and I think it probably gives credit to both sides of the argument. That does not mean I am advocating Cooley


Each year hopeful college students send thousands of applications nationwide, trying to gain acceptance at top-tier law school. The assumption is that by going to a top law school and doing well, one's career in law is more or less set for success. But does graduating from a top law school really guarantee more success in one's career, or can one attend a lower-ranked school and do just as well, if not better?

Read the rest here

http://www.lawcrossing.com/article/693/Does-Law-School-Rank-Determine-Success-/
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: trudawg on July 18, 2010, 02:56:31 AM
The reputation of a school does indeed matter. It is not, however, the only factor in the equation to success. A great school and good grades can garner more opportunities, but talent and drive make the difference between a good and a top-notch lawyer.

Great article!!!
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: sonofapickle on July 24, 2010, 01:39:14 PM
You will never step foot on the grounds of a Big Law firm by going to Cooley. That is all that needs to be said. Cooley is clown college for lawyers.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: the white rabbit on July 25, 2010, 06:08:01 AM
Most people don't want to work in Big Law. Some do, but not everybody. You actually did say one thing that had a correct statment in it if you go to Cooley you probably won't work in Big Law. No matter what law school you go to the odds of Big Law are low.  However, the majority of legal jobs are not Big Law and Cooley Grads I am sure do in fine in non big-law situations. Again take the LSAT and step foot in a law school clasroom or at least hold a job for a day that pays you something.

The bolded is incorrect.  However, that doesn't change the larger point that Biglaw is not the only goal a person can have in mind when going to law school.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: sonofapickle on July 25, 2010, 11:19:22 AM
Most people don't want to work in Big Law. Some do, but not everybody. You actually did say one thing that had a correct statment in it if you go to Cooley you probably won't work in Big Law. No matter what law school you go to the odds of Big Law are low.  However, the majority of legal jobs are not Big Law and Cooley Grads I am sure do in fine in non big-law situations. Again take the LSAT and step foot in a law school clasroom or at least hold a job for a day that pays you something.

You are all about getting paid from someone else. That is what separates you from me. I can make my own money and have more wealth and income than anyone holding down a meager job. In fact, I don't really need to work for someone if I don't want to. I am my own person and I know who I am. I am not a reflection or moniker of a company (what you are), I am a reflection of myself. You only notice yourself represented by the job you work in. A corporation defines who YOU are as a person, not the other way around. Not for me as I really can work for myself and make money for myself. Yes, I have never held a job, but have I made money on my own? Yes, I have made money. I make a lot more money than a person working at any retail establishment off of dividends alone.

You must know yourself in order to do anything and by your posts, it would seem you don't know anything about yourself so you go through various facets letting them define who you are as an individual. Sorry, but I am not going to live my life being mirrored and categorized by people/corporations. That is what separates the master (boss) from the servant (employee). I will have a career in the future and hold a position in a firm one day, but no way in hell will I be treated like some pawn in a chess game.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: trudawg on July 25, 2010, 02:55:24 PM
I certainly understand and  even commend the entrepreneurial spirit of the poster above ^^ but coming from someone who has worked his entire life starting w/ a paper route when I was 10 to an IT supervisor at 30, honestly I would never want to work for someone who's never had a job.
That being said, I don't think the aforementioned party was referring to ones job as the main indicating factor of ones worth, and neither am I, I think said poster was referring to ones level of wisdom obtained by such job(s) or lack there of.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: sonofapickle on July 25, 2010, 03:47:01 PM
From the internship I did last summer, the people I interned for not only said I was a great intern and much better than the last ones they had, but also paid me when they didn't have to. From that very internship, I know if I had a desk job as a broker (financial advisor) I would excel at it. It is not a form of wisdom due to years of being employed but rather a form, "are you competent enough to complete the tasks at hand?" IF you aren't then you are just incompetent at the job and need a position that does not strain the little abilities you have.

If I were you, I would rather work with someone who has never held a job but was competent at his first job and completed his work effectively, than someone who has worked for years and was a bit incompetent and you could do his work for him and better. That is why I would rather work for myself selling commodities, stocks, etc..., because I am actually good at that. It is autonomous work but requires a lot of smarts to actually make money from starting positions. It also requires some level of prediction based on simulated outcomes.

Anyway, getting a job is different from, "are you actually better than me at your own job?" I could manage other peoples money and make them money 2-fold in 3 years off of their initial big investments, which I was apart of a group project for the brokers I was interning for and I came up with some pretty effective strategies based off of the markets. I am more independent in my work rather than group oriented because not many people are on my level when it comes to trading and making investments. That is the market section. The law section will require some form of learning how to deal with people I deem inferior. That is 3.5 years away before I actually become a full fledged attorney, so I have time to learn the basics.


Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: sonofapickle on July 26, 2010, 09:09:54 PM
I need degrees, that is why. People do not understand that a piece of paper doesn't show how much knowledge you have on a subject, but they want it as verification anyway. I get that, so I will abide by the customs of society because the breakdown comes when those who cannot assimilate to the dominant culture or abide by the rules believe they don't have to. I know people who are foreign, poor, or new to the culture must become apart of it and that requires them to uphold the same customs and traditions. The American dream they want mainly due to that being shoved in their face from one end to another. I am not out for the "American dream" which is what separates me from other people, especially in my peer group. I love talking with them because a flesh full of great ideology spews out and you'd think it was just a faucet of knowledge being streamed through a pipe seamlessly.

Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: sonofapickle. on July 26, 2010, 09:38:26 PM
wasnt your fag ass supposed to be in the marines or somthing, what they kick you out for being weak, gay, and dumb?(mostly gay)?

I need degrees, that is why. People do not understand that a piece of paper doesn't show how much knowledge you have on a subject, but they want it as verification anyway. I get that, so I will abide by the customs of society because the breakdown comes when those who cannot assimilate to the dominant culture or abide by the rules believe they don't have to. I know people who are foreign, poor, or new to the culture must become apart of it and that requires them to uphold the same customs and traditions. The American dream they want mainly due to that being shoved in their face from one end to another. I am not out for the "American dream" which is what separates me from other people, especially in my peer group. I love talking with them because a flesh full of great ideology spews out and you'd think it was just a faucet of knowledge being streamed through a pipe seamlessly.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: pacelaw2013 on July 27, 2010, 05:19:03 AM
Quote
If a sonofpickle is in fact real which is highly unlikely and for humanities sakes I hope he is not.  He would definitely not have had any type of sexual interaction either gay or straight... Clearly he is above meaningless sexual interaction and he could not be either gay or straight he has reached intellectual nirvana and can't be bothered with peasantries of sexuality. Maybe he will have to procreate and spread his genius at some point, but that will be the only sexual interaction he will ever have.

Oh my god, SOP is George Costanza!
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: sonofapickle. on July 27, 2010, 10:17:33 AM
True, even though he gets tugjobs by a dudes hand every night, I guess its not "gay" if its your own hand...... :o

If a sonofpickle is in fact real which is highly unlikely and for humanities sakes I hope he is not.  He would definitely not have had any type of sexual interaction either gay or straight. He would be to busy playing world of warcraft, going to star trek conventions, and telling himself how awesome he is. Clearly he is above meaningless sexual interaction and he could not be either gay or straight he has reached intellectual nirvana and can't be bothered with peasantries of sexuality. Maybe he will have to procreate and spread his genius at some point, but that will be the only sexual interaction he will ever have.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: sonofapickle on July 27, 2010, 10:35:08 AM
It seems there is a full fledged imitator. Someday you will have your own personality and will stop mimicking the greats.

If a sonofpickle is in fact real which is highly unlikely and for humanities sakes I hope he is not.  He would definitely not have had any type of sexual interaction either gay or straight. He would be to busy playing world of warcraft, going to star trek conventions, and telling himself how awesome he is. Clearly he is above meaningless sexual interaction and he could not be either gay or straight he has reached intellectual nirvana and can't be bothered with peasantries of sexuality. Maybe he will have to procreate and spread his genius at some point, but that will be the only sexual interaction he will ever have.

I don't get my entertainment from simple facets like TV or video games. I would rather read a good book or attend a foreign film being showed at the local theater.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: pacelaw2013 on July 27, 2010, 10:47:23 AM
It seems there is a full fledged imitator. Someday you will have your own personality...


Agreed, the imitator is not even funny, which is the real crime.
 ::)
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: sonofapickle. on July 27, 2010, 06:00:24 PM
whateva, you just immidatin' the real slim-pickle, the real slim-pickle.........

It seems there is a full fledged imitator. Someday you will have your own personality...


Agreed, the imitator is not even funny, which is the real crime.
 ::)
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: sonofapickle on July 28, 2010, 10:42:01 AM
I would rather get this topic on a different note and address a post that was made on the first page.

Quote
Obviously, Harvard will open more doors, but law school is really what you make of it.

I know I detest tier 4 schools and schools like Cooley, but anyone attending those schools could get into big law. It would be a much different route than say, a kid graduating from the top 5. A student who was in a tier 4 would actually have to work a few years as a lawyer, gain experience, make a lot of rapport with some wealthy people, and finally, make a name for himself in the field of law. It would take a while but it would also garner more experience and possibly a better suited lawyer for biglaw than some students who do graduate from top law schools.

My uncle who works in a big law firm always says, school name only matters when you first graduate law school and pass the bar exam. If you have been out in the field for 5-10 years, your school name doesn't matter anymore and experience, reputation, and network matters more.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: llsatt1 on July 28, 2010, 03:28:08 PM
Answer: Yes
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: llsatt1 on July 28, 2010, 07:14:49 PM
I'm basing it on fact.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: processus on September 29, 2010, 03:45:02 AM
I think it is not too bad at all.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: jack24 on September 29, 2010, 11:12:39 AM
The truth is, the students at cooley are generally not as good at getting good grades and taking tests as the students at a top 100 school.  The students at #100 are generally not as good at taking tests and getting good grades as the students who go to schools in the top 14.

So what does that mean?  That's up to you.  It's just basic common sense that many employers would think that the students who go to cooley are not as bright as the students at highly ranked schools, and hiring partners like bright students for some reason.

So that fact influences everything else.  Does cooley provide a high quality education?  Who knows, the students' poor performance would make it impossible to identify whether the instruction is poor.
Does cooley provide students with good career opportunities?  Who knows... but you can't tell if it's cooley's fault that many of their grads don't have jobs.  Maybe the students are just not as appealing.

Say what you want to say about the rankings, but the top schools get the best applicants (on paper at least)
The median LSAT and GPA of the applicants at my T2 school was 160 and 3.45.   Does anyone think that employers would prefer a student body with median stats like 146 and 2.95?  (cooley's 2006 entering class)

No way.

It may not be fair or whatever, but it's true.

Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: Hamilton on September 29, 2010, 01:19:05 PM
The real rub is that a Cooley education is just as expensive as any T14.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: john4040 on October 29, 2010, 09:39:08 AM
According to me Cooley University low school is best one it's not lenient for entrance but it has a bad reputation. You shouldn't think wrong for this well establish low school. Time is precious so plz get the admission at Cooley University .

I find it ironic that you called it "Cooley University low school."  If your spelling and writing abilities are representative of the talent from Cooley, I'd have to say that the answer to this thread is a resounding "YES."
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: nealric on October 29, 2010, 10:47:25 AM
Quote
I find it ironic that you called it "Cooley University low school."  If your spelling and writing abilities are representative of the talent from Cooley, I'd have to say that the answer to this thread is a resounding "YES."

Lol. The post is from a spam bot.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: john4040 on October 29, 2010, 03:21:17 PM
Quote
I find it ironic that you called it "Cooley University low school."  If your spelling and writing abilities are representative of the talent from Cooley, I'd have to say that the answer to this thread is a resounding "YES."

Lol. The post is from a spam bot.

Sad thing is, I wouldn't have been shocked if it was actually a Cooley law student.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: like_lasagna on January 21, 2011, 02:16:09 AM
The level of delusion here is astounding.

There are no jobs. If you are at a T4, you are significantly less likely to get those jobs that DO become available. It doesn't matter what you want to do.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: rm09 on January 30, 2011, 03:51:22 PM
I can't really speak of Cooley since I know nothing about it other than its reputation.  Personally, the one thing I'd worried about with a school that admits people with both bad GPAs and LSAT scores would be that the student body would actually hold back my education because they'd have a harder time grasping the material.  But I don't know if that is even the case.

I was going to recommend you go to http://officialguide.lsac.org/

I typed in your 2.9 GPA and 156 LSAT and found you have up to a 100% chance of getting admitted to at least 11 different schools and still a greater than a 50% chance of being admitted to dozens more.  You are not limited to Cooley.  You would be limited to Cooley if your numbers were 1.9 and 146 instead of 2.9 and 156.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: politicolaw on January 30, 2011, 05:10:29 PM
The real rub is that a Cooley education is just as expensive as any T14.

Just to keep the "facts" going here, this is not a fact. The majority of students at Cooley go part time. Part time tuition at Cooley ranges from 13k -26k per year assuming there is no scholarship - and an average LSAT taker would easily attain a partial scholarship. 

http://www.cooley.edu/finaid/tuition.html

Someone going to Cooley part time on scholarship could be getting a very good tuition rate comparable to an instate residency at a public law school. In a poor economy, maybe a better choice than many t4's.

Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: Hamilton on January 31, 2011, 06:28:20 AM
Fine, one can parse the numbers several ways or include extraneous factors such as scholarships to make a case that one school is or is not more or less expensive - this was a general statement regarding tuition costs.  It still takes 90 credit hours to graduate and the cost per credit hour at Cooley is about the same as any other law school - last I saw it was pushing up on $900/credit hour (according to the link provided it actually about $1K per).  90 x $900 still equals $81,000 in tuition costs alone for the degree... part-time or full-time is irrelevant.  Do what you want with grants, scholarships, COL expenses, etc... the base sticker price is what it is.

The real rub is that a Cooley education is just as expensive as any T14.

Just to keep the "facts" going here, this is not a fact. The majority of students at Cooley go part time. Part time tuition at Cooley ranges from 13k -26k per year assuming there is no scholarship - and an average LSAT taker would easily attain a partial scholarship. 

http://www.cooley.edu/finaid/tuition.html

Someone going to Cooley part time on scholarship could be getting a very good tuition rate comparable to an instate residency at a public law school. In a poor economy, maybe a better choice than many t4's.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: john4040 on January 31, 2011, 07:35:45 AM
The real rub is that a Cooley education is just as expensive as any T14.

Just to keep the "facts" going here, this is not a fact. The majority of students at Cooley go part time. Part time tuition at Cooley ranges from 13k -26k per year assuming there is no scholarship - and an average LSAT taker would easily attain a partial scholarship. 

http://www.cooley.edu/finaid/tuition.html

Someone going to Cooley part time on scholarship could be getting a very good tuition rate comparable to an instate residency at a public law school. In a poor economy, maybe a better choice than many t4's.

I would only go to Cooley if (1) I felt that I couldn't live without being a lawyer, AND (2) tuition was less than $6000 /yr. (i.e., $18,000 total for the degree).

Just to keep the "facts" going here, this is not a fact.... and an average LSAT taker would easily attain a partial scholarship. 

The whole reason most go to Cooley is because they're BELOW average relative to other prospective law school admits.  So, although "an average LSAT taker would easily attain a partial scholarship," an average Cooley admit would not.  Those are the facts.



Also, I think this guy said it best:
The level of delusion here is astounding.

Some people here are in serious denial.  This board is packed with T3 and T4 students.  They all huddle together and congratulate each other like it's some sort of accomplishment and they've all achieved greatness.  Well, I've got news for you:  It's not a an accomplishment, it should not be celebrated, and a rude awakening awaits most of you after the bar.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: politicolaw on January 31, 2011, 08:31:15 AM

[/quote]

Some people here are in serious denial.  This board is packed with T3 and T4 students.  They all huddle together and congratulate each other like it's some sort of accomplishment and they've all achieved greatness.  Well, I've got news for you:  It's not a an accomplishment, it should not be celebrated, and a rude awakening awaits most of you after the bar.
[/quote]

The T3 & T4s congratulate, and the T1's trash the rest.. it's whatever. The funniest yet are the comments trashing people before they've even taken the LSAT or been accepted anywhere.

I would agree, the general range of Cooley students would be below average in #s. However, I suppose I'm not advocating the whole school. I'm just saying it can work, and its going to work for my situation.

And lastly, its actually $1100 per credit hour. No idea where you found 900 at.

Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: john4040 on January 31, 2011, 08:54:46 AM
The T3 & T4s congratulate, and the T1's trash the rest.. it's whatever. The funniest yet are the comments trashing people before they've even taken the LSAT or been accepted anywhere...

The problem is that there's going to be a "student loan bubble" akin to that in the real estate market.  Most of these T3 and T4 students are taking out massive student loans that they can't realistically repay.  Who will repay their loans when the bubble bursts?  Probably me (along with the other gainfully employed US taxpayers).  There is already a significant call to make student debt dischargeable in bankruptcy -- that should immediately sound warning bells.   The law schools and professors could care less because they can manipulate the employment stats, lure students in by the thousands, and make stacks of cash on the backs of the government, the students, and ultimately, the US taxpayer.  The government has assured the law schools that they'll be getting paid and, while business is good in the short-term, who the fck cares about the long-term consequences, right? (Oh wait.. that was the same attitude that fueled the bank collapses and real-estate bubble).

Why are we creating more law schools and churning out more law students when supply grossly outstrips demand?  Why are we encouraging and allowing these idiots to take on student loans which cannot, realistically, be repaid?  How can a T3 and T4 law school (or any expensive law school in a state where supply grossly outstrips demand) justify its existence?  (If the law school is the best in the state; or a case could be made for diversity; or if there's evidence that additional attorneys are needed in a particular state where the law school is proposed to be built, then I'd be sold.  However, I'm not sold on the claim that "everyone needs an education" and "education is inherently valuable.")  Why are we allowing the quality of legal care to take a nosedive by admitting anyone and everyone with a pulse to the bar?  These are the questions which I hope get resolved before the bubble is allowed to burst.

 The bottom line: No private bank would EVER take a risk on these T3 and T4 students if their loans weren't backed by Uncle Sam, or, weren't backed by a belief of loan bail out in the event of mass student loan default. If they wouldn't be willing to take on the risk, why is my money being used to back and encourage such a stupid, avoidable, and irrational risk? The government has absolutely no business backing student loans unless there is a showing that these schools are absolutely necessary to further a substantial interest (the inherent value of education, alone, is not a substantial interest).  Without such a showing, the student loans should not be backed.

And lastly, its actually $1100 per credit hour. No idea where you found 900 at.

So, it's actually a worse investment than he initially thought...  how wonderful.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: Hamilton on January 31, 2011, 09:44:41 AM

And lastly, its actually $1100 per credit hour. No idea where you found 900 at.

Thanks for clarifying tuition costs, my numbers were a couple of years old.  $1,100/credit hour... Un. Stinking. Believable!  How does LeDuc look in the mirror each morning?
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: politicolaw on January 31, 2011, 10:46:21 AM
also a note on quality of applicants...

its increasingly more difficult to get admitted to law school than in past years and decades. So, given the competition of the current time wouldn't that suggest that current students are of a higher caliber? Even Cooley raises the LSAT minimum a point every year or two.. so the alumni from a decade ago are examples of the quality that I would severely question- that could be someone that had a 130s score! 

 I completely agree that taking on 150k plus on a lower tiered school is a HUGE risk - one that I will not be taking. One way that this problem is being addressed is through the extended repayment plans and income based repayment on federal loans. Most law grads would be able to extend payment for 25-30 years, and in some public service fields they can be forgiven after 10 years.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: Detroitynglawyer on April 27, 2011, 03:25:01 PM
I'm sure it is what you make of it.  BUTTTTTT>.............

It is a handicap for sure!  Harder all along the way to get a job or anything and you always have to worry about getting kicked out at cooley. 

3 years + debt is a lot! 

If i could do it over again I would do something more profitable.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: jack24 on April 28, 2011, 07:18:37 PM
also a note on quality of applicants...

its increasingly more difficult to get admitted to law school than in past years and decades. So, given the competition of the current time wouldn't that suggest that current students are of a higher caliber? Even Cooley raises the LSAT minimum a point every year or two.. so the alumni from a decade ago are examples of the quality that I would severely question- that could be someone that had a 130s score! 


Really?  But more people take the LSAT, so there are more people with a high LSAT (since its basically a forced curve).  Cooley accepts people with sub 150 scores.  Since over 130,000 people take the LSAT every year, approximately 65,000 applicants get above a 150 and cooley still accepts people with a 146 and 2.9 gpa.   According to americanbar.org, around 50,000 students enrolled in ABA approved law schools, so I guess there are a ton of LSAT takers that don't go to law school at all, but there are still a lot of schools and a lot of opportunities.
Some people may say Cooley provides the same education as any school, and that may be true, but a kid with a 146 and 2.9 is facing an avalanche of superior competition, especially when he goes to a school very well-known for it's low ranking.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: politicolaw on April 30, 2011, 07:58:30 AM
I believe thats exactly the argument. I agree that someone with a 2.9 and 146 would probably have a difficult time- also if those are accurate representations of that persons ability (maybe they were in the military, worked, whatever).

From my understanding, Cooley does accept people with low numbers.... ** with the understanding that they are giving you a chance to prove yourself amidst the competition.
- LSAC says about 20% attrition after 1L, and its right down the middle 10% transfer and 10% fail out.

I do believe this reflects at least an average quality graduate in the end, if you can make it through the cuts and competition for the first year or two then it should be alright. I've talked to Florida Cooley alumni and this is what they have reiterated the same message.

The negatives of Cooley are about the rankings (that should be gone), low admissions standards, and the attrition for the first year or two. But in the end, I think the quality of a graduate after going through Cooley's process isn't what is in question.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: FalconJimmy on April 30, 2011, 09:38:42 AM
Scholarships are also a huge plus at Cooley.  I don't know of any other school with such a liberal scholarship policy.  I got 3/4 there, and only about 1/2 where I'm going.

On the downside, and I don't think this is to be discounted, is that folks who go to Cooley describe the experience as absolutely brutal.  I don't know that law school is supposed to be enjoyable per se, but the Cooley folks describe their experience as being rather unpleasant. 
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: Hamilton on May 02, 2011, 06:51:29 AM
PERCEPTION IS REALITY.  Cooley is "that bad" b/c the legal community generally thinks it is.  All arguments about quality of education, etc. aside - firms that hire lawyers look down on Cooley, so perception IS reality.  I know some top 5% students that have gone on to decent careers in recent years, but that's about it.

Cooley does itself no favors by expanding and becoming bigger.  This says that they are more interested in quantity (and money), not quality.  Walmart is not trying to be some Rodeo Drive boutique... but they make more money selling in large numbers.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: B212bb on July 15, 2011, 12:59:47 PM
Okay im a canadian student who really didn't have really good grades so im going to  be applying for law school in the u.s because in Canada the law schools are just too competitive. My gpa is 2.9 and my LSAT is a 156. Can you guys tell me what law schools i might have a chance at? Furthermore people told me that Cooley University is lenient for entrance but it has a bad reputation.

Yes Cooley is bad. Canada does it right, they limit the number of law schools. Whereas in the US, if you put a couple books in your garage you could probably get accreditation from the ABA.  I don't know why you would ever consider leaving Canada, with a strong labour market and lower employment rate, for a legal career in the USA where legal wages are depressed, people cannot pay off their loans, and a law degree is increasingly less prestigious and no ticket to a better future (often, it is a ticket to a terrible future). Plus, if you do not get a job after graduating Cooley (very likely), you will not be able to remain indefinitely in the US. Thus, you will have to return to Canada, but in order to practice law you need to Article first - and what firm will take someone who left Canada for a piss-poor US school?

From one Canuck to another - don't do it!
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: unknownOne on July 18, 2011, 12:14:49 AM
There isn't anything wrong with Cooley's main campus aside from the fact that they aren't selective with the students they accept for admission. It's possible the grading there is more difficult to help boost bar passage rates due to this.  There's no reason to think the quality of education there is any worse than it is at most other law schools.  They have money. They attract good faculty.  They have good facilities with a nice new classroom building and one of the best law libraries. 

And depending on one's perspective, allowing others a chance that didn't graduate college with a high GPA might not be a bad thing.  How many millions of intelligent persons messed up their GPA during their their freshmen/sophomore years in college when they were 18/19?  Should these people forever be barred from going to professional or grad school?  I don't think so.  But then the overabundance of law school graduates also has to be taken into account....

Recruiters don't pass by schools like this because they think the quality of education is poor and think the instruction was better at University of Michigan of some other school.  They focus on highly selective schools because they know these schools already did much of the work for them by being selective with the students they accepted for admission in the first place.  They go to Tier I's and II's because every student there had earlier proved themselves by graduating with an A/A- average in undergrad combined with very high LSAT scores.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: newlawkid on July 18, 2011, 10:00:17 AM
I found this post googling..

My reason for going isn't because of low scores (3.9/173) Because of my scores I'll be getting 100% scholarship. But the reason I'm leaning towards Cooley is mostly because Cooley accepts those with only associate's degrees and I just don't have time to waste. Being a single parent, they have weekend/night classes and they go year round so I'd have the option of finishing in two years instead of three-five.

Is it worth waiting two-three years to finish a bachelors to be able to go somewhere else? What are the chances that I'll get a 100% scholarship somewhere else?

Edit: I'm 19 and before you say that I have plenty of time to take finishing things, I am the sole breadwinner for my household. I've paid my way through school in cash so far and plan to if humanly possible. Would it be worth it to go to a t4 school if it meant graduating without a cent of debt?
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: FalconJimmy on July 18, 2011, 02:45:54 PM
 
Would it be worth it to go to a t4 school if it meant graduating without a cent of debt?

Cooley is only T4 because there isn't a T5.  Everybody who goes to T4 schools points at schools like Cooley and says to themselves, "At least I didn't go there".


Is it worth waiting two-three years to finish a bachelors to be able to go somewhere else?

God yes.  You're young, but that Cooley degree will establish a hard ceiling on your future prospects that you're highly unlikely to ever rise above.  It will be like a curse that you will never, ever be able to shake.  T4 grads do make midcareer transitions into biglaw now and then.  Cooley grads?  Sorry, but you're just screwed.  Really.  For the rest of your life, you'll have to COMPETE to try and get the worst jobs in the entire industry.

What are the chances that I'll get a 100% scholarship somewhere else?

Pretty darned good if you ask me.  I got a half-ride with a 159/3.00.

With your grades, you should be poising yourself for admission to a T1. 

Take on the debt.  Sell a kidney if you have to.  With your grades and smarts, you could be making $200,000 in your first year out of law school.

However, with that Cooley degree?  You'll be unlikely to find a $35,000 a year job.  Seriously.

Cooley makes sense for some folks.  Old folks who are going into practice for themselves.

I admire your spirit, but take on the debt and get the BEST legal education you can get, not the cheapest.  In this and many other things in life, you get what you pay for. 

I know you feel like you can't stand the financial strain of doing this the right way, but if you don't make the sacrifice now, you'll end up making the sacrifice for the rest of your life until the day you die.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: unknownOne on July 18, 2011, 03:43:43 PM

I admire your spirit, but take on the debt and get the BEST legal education you can get, not the cheapest.  In this and many other things in life, you get what you pay for. 

There isn't anything wrong with the quality of legal education there. It's probably better than at a good number of other law schools, including the one down the road from it. They have good tenured faculty, nice facilities, one of the best libraries, etc.  They have more classes to choose from for electives than most other law schools as well.  They can do that because of the number of students.   

Who created this fiction that if someone goes to a Tier II instead of a Tier III or IV that the quality of instruction and experience is going to be magically better?  It's not. Cooley uses the same casebooks, they go through the same amount of material, and they have good faculty.  That's not why it's more difficult to get a good job leaving there.  It's because of the lack of selectivity in student admissions.

It's not a "you get what you pay for" type of thing. 
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: newlawkid on July 18, 2011, 04:07:55 PM
$200,000? I didn't even know you could make that kind of money doing this. I've been waitressing through school and taking home 3G a month sounds like heaven. :)

My real issue is the time constraints. Debt happens but is it worth waiting tables for 2-3 more years while getting a bachelors at OU - barely scraping by - all in the hopes of getting into a better school? It just seems like the years it could take to finish the pre-law side would be better spent gaining experience on the other end.. right?

Are there any other schools that accept associate's degrees?
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: unknownOne on July 18, 2011, 04:24:50 PM
Are there any other schools that accept associate's degrees?

Not that I'm aware of.   You likely wouldn't be able to transfer out of Cooley if you went there without a bachelor's, either, because it's my understanding that schools require a bachelor's degree whether one is a new student or a transfer.

Cooley's main campus is in close proximity to MSU and their law school.  Many younger students at Cooley choose to live in East Lansing near MSU.

Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: FalconJimmy on July 18, 2011, 04:28:18 PM
$200,000? I didn't even know you could make that kind of money doing this.

$160,000 with a signing bonus is the customary salary for a new associate in biglaw.  Yes, that kind of money is possible, but only for people who are attending the very best schools and do very well in their classes.  Based on your test scores and GPA, I don't see why you couldn't be one of those people.

I've been waitressing through school and taking home 3G a month sounds like heaven. :)

For now.



My real issue is the time constraints. Debt happens but is it worth waiting tables for 2-3 more years while getting a bachelors at OU - barely scraping by - all in the hopes of getting into a better school?


Depends.  Seriously, let's say you go to Cooley and just totally kill.  You finish towards the top of your class.  You probably are setting yourself up to be a $40,000 new-hire at the DA's office or as a new associate with some very small local law firm.

So, instead of losing money and time in school, you make $40,000 for 2 years.  You are $80,000 ahead, plus the cost of tuition.  So, $100,000 ahead.

Or, you could kick butt, get into UofM law, wait 2 more years to graduate, and get some job in Chicago that starts you off at $150,000 a year.  Keep in mind, this is starting pay.  After 3 or 4 years, you're a midlevel associate.  You could make $300,000 a year or so. 

If you're tough enough to make it 10 years and make partner, you're probably looking at $700,000 a year or more.  (Some senior partners are billing $1,000 an hour these days.  That's $2 million a year, just for YOUR direct work, not including the money you make from the associates working for you.)

After your 2nd year in biglaw, you've more than made up any ground you lost.  PLUS, you have a huge runway ahead of you.  Graduate from Cooley, and the money you saved by not going to 2 more years of undergrad disappears in a year and your career is basically forever doomed.  You can absolutely forget about ever making $700,000 a year.

If making $40,000 to $60,000 is your idea of success, then go to Cooley.  You'll have a hard time getting those jobs, but you can probably get them if you are determined, work hard and do well in school.

However, you could make 10 times that amount as a senior associate at a biglaw firm and who knows, 15-20 times that much as a partner.

Can you be a partner in biglaw from Cooley?  Sure, just like you can be a justice on the US Supreme Court.  In theory, it's possible.  In practice, it'll never happen. 


 
It just seems like the years it could take to finish the pre-law side would be better spent gaining experience on the other end.. right?

No, the kinds of jobs you get out of Cooley are generally not good ones.  You'll get 2 years of crappy experience.  5 years in Biglaw and you can land a cushy corporate job as in-house counsel for $200,000 a year if the biglaw pace is too much for you.  5 years after cooley, you'll probably be lucky to be making $60,000 a year. 

Are there any other schools that accept associate's degrees?

None that you should go to.  I'm coming to the conclusion that these schools (like Cooley and the non-ABA schools) are fine if you're old and don't want a job at graduation. 

However, you're both young and I presume you want a job.  Cooley will doom your career. 

The choice is yours.  Slug it out the rest of your life for $60,000 a year, or make the sacrifices now and put yourself in a position to enter a strata of the law where minimum wage is 150 large.

I guarantee, with your GPA and LSAT, if you go to Cooley, you'll regret it for the rest of your life.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: unknownOne on July 18, 2011, 04:56:43 PM
I guarantee, with your GPA and LSAT, if you go to Cooley, you'll regret it for the rest of your life.

Most people with such scores probably would if they knew how truly difficult it is oftentimes to get a decent job leaving a Tier IV school (or even a job at all).  Now, if this were someone with lower GPA and LSAT trying to decide between a Tier III like MSU vs. Cooley with full scholarship, I'm not sure going to the Tier III would necessarily be the better choice.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: Hamilton on July 18, 2011, 05:47:33 PM
Who created this fiction that if someone goes to a Tier II instead of a Tier III or IV that the quality of instruction and experience is going to be magically better? 

1. It is not a fiction.
2. It is a reality that was created by the thousands of law firms out there that make hiring decisions.

You may not like taxes, but they are a reality that you cannot ignore - same with the rankings.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: Hamilton on July 18, 2011, 05:52:09 PM
Listen to Falcon, he speaks the truth.  DO NOT go to Cooley just b/c you are in a hurry - do not even be tempted by the Oakland campus.  Kick butt, finish undergrad and go to U of M law (or some other T1).  With a T1, the debt is worth it compared to a T4 with no debt.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: FalconJimmy on July 18, 2011, 06:03:46 PM
Kid, I have a few more things to say to you:

1.  If you are supporting yourself AND A FAMILY, waiting tables, and you get your BA with a 3.9 gpa, you will have a personal statement that will be an absolute envy.  In your shoes, I'd be feeling like life sucks right about now, but if you can endure this just a little longer, you could really punch your ticket.  2 years seems like forever to you.  Trust me, it isn't.  Your perspective will change as you get older.  You're clearly a brilliant person, but your perspective will change as you gain wisdom.

2.  Find a 4 year school, any school, any major, that you can finish in 2 years.  A school I once went to had a communications major that had like 42 hours of electives.  Get the easiest degree you can, as fast as you can.  They will NOT hold this against you when you apply for Law School.  You might be able to get a good scholarship.

3.  Did you prep for that 173?  If not, prep for the next one.  (There are inexpensive ways to do this, btw.)  It'll be easy enough to explain.  "I took it as a Sophomore because I was considering going to a law school that would accept me with 2 years of college.  However, when I heard more about it, I decided to devote myself to going to a higher caliber of school".  If you got a 173 with minimal studying, you have a truly exceptional mind.  You owe it to yourself to let it take you as far as you can go.

4.  Are you talking about going to Oakland U or Ohio U?  If you're anywhere near SE Michigan or NW Ohio, I will honestly meet you and buy you lunch to explain all this stuff to you.  It took me 2 decades to figure all this stuff out (not to mention a pile of books).  It's basically too late for me, but it's not too late for you. 

5.  With the numbers you're talking about, you could be looking at a full-ride all the way into some T2 schools.  I'm not kidding.  You might even be able to wangle good schollys to some T1s.  If you can improve your LSAT score a point or two in the next couple of years, you'd be amazed at how many schools will throw money at you.

I'm not trying to be melodramatic when I say this, but if you go to Cooley, I can guarantee that you'll regret it, forever.  Probably will start regretting it sometime in your 1L year.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: newlawkid on July 18, 2011, 06:18:31 PM
Since I'm already in with 100% scholarship, would it be detrimental to take 3-6 credits a semester in addition to OU classes until I finish my B.A.? Would transferring from Cooley be a black mark or difficult to do?
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: FalconJimmy on July 18, 2011, 06:26:36 PM
It can be done, but it's difficult and problematic. 

For one thing, most transfers are 1Ls who finished their 1L year while attending full-time.

At that point, the only thing the school is looking at is your 1L gpa and class rank. 

If you're a part-timer, class ranks are problematic.  You might only have a class rank against other part-timers. 

Basically, it's darned dicey to transfer.  It can be done.  It is done every day, but it's not all that straightforward.

U of M takes about 30 transfers a year.  You might not get in.  What will you do, then?  Go to a different school halfway across the country?  Finish up at Cooley?  (If so, see previous note about "regret it for the rest of your life".  I'm not kidding when I say this.)

What makes you think Cooley wouldn't give you this same scholarship later if you don't enroll now?

Honestly, Kid, if you go to Cooley, I guarantee you won't even make it out of your 20s without hating yourself for it.  You'll be sitting there thinking, "Cripes... it could have been ME making $500,000 a year at this point in my life.  Instead, I'm going to go do my $35,000 a year job with the public defender."

I know a good friend who went to a newly accredited school.  (It's a 4T school.)  She finished 2nd in her class.  I asked her if she regretted not-going to a better school and her answer was basically that there isn't a day that goes by when she doesn't regret not-going to the best law school that would accept her.

That will be you if you go to Cooley.  Bank on it.

If you were some slacker with a 2.8 and a 152 LSAT, I'd be saying, heck yeah, go to Cooley.  Because a slacker with a 2.8 and a 152 isn't going to have a brilliant career ahead of them no matter what they do.

You've got a chance to be one of the very best of the best.  We're talking about you pulling down the kind of money that a professional athlete makes... but instead of making it for 10 years, you can make it for 40.

But there's only 1 way to do this.  You can't outsmart this problem.  You cannot create your own unique and creative solution and approach.

You have to do things the way they're done, which means getting that 4 year degree and going to a top law school.

Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: Hamilton on July 18, 2011, 07:27:10 PM
Listen to Falcon!
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: JDGuy86 on July 18, 2011, 07:45:04 PM
If you don't go to Cooley, you don't know enough to say its crap. Its good in its area, its just as good as most other 4th tier schools. Expensive? Maybe. More than any other private law school? Probably not.

For the Canadian student who started this thread, if you want to go back to Canada, it would be much better off to go to school in Canada.

Why does this topic keep coming up again and again? Its dumb, just redirect to an already discussed thread. There are probably 10 on this site alone.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: FalconJimmy on July 18, 2011, 08:55:39 PM
If you don't go to Cooley, you don't know enough to say its crap.

The issue isn't whether or not it's crap.

The issue is that the perception of the school is horriffic.

If you can put together a legal career and never have to worry about what somebody else thinks about the school you went to, then Cooley is peachy.  I'm not being facetious when I say this.  I plan on hanging out a shingle at graduation and frankly, Cooley probably would have been fine as far as preparing me to do this.  (Or at least as fine as most other schools.)


Its good in its area.

Perhaps so, trouble is most people don't believe this.

its just as good as most other 4th tier schools.

Hmmm... how would you know if you didn't attend most other 4th tier schools?
 


Expensive? Maybe.

In my opinion, it's only expensive if you're a student who probably shouldn't be going to law school in the first place.  Their scholarships are very generous and not very hard to qualify for.


Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: blue54 on July 18, 2011, 10:45:00 PM
Note: in light of recent developments, this is all based on my opinion and should NOT be taken as factual.

Please listen to Falcon. He definitely knows what he is talking about with respect to Cooley. Besides, have you ever visited the law quad at UMich? It's pretty amazing. But that's aside from the point. Cooley has a real bad reputation, and in law, reputation is everything. There is a dichotomy between those in law school/practicing law, and those outside of it. Most people in Michigan who are not involved in law believe Cooley is good because they see the billboards up on I-96 or hear the radio advertisements on 95.5 and they see things like "ranked #2 in the country" and "get a degree on the weekends." Seriously, don't buy into it. Those who are outside the law do. Those who are inside the law realize that Cooley is one massive law school with 4 campuses stretched across the Michigan landscape, pushing out thousands of new lawyers each year to flood the market. You want to transfer from there? Good luck. If the grading curve doesn't kill you, then the reputation will. I worked for mid-size firm as a paid clerk during my law school tenure (I went to school in Michigan, but not to Cooley). We hired Cooley grads because they had to do an unpaid externship in order to graduate. As soon as they were finished with the externship, they were gone. No one who was paid in my firm went to Cooley. That shows you how those inside the law view Cooley. Please do not drink the kool-aid. Sure, Cooley teaches you the law just like UMich does, but lawyers are superficial. They want the glitzy shiny stuff. They want the best of the best, the cream of the crop. Doctors who go to school in the Caribbean learn just as much as the doctors who went to school at Harvard, but who do you think will have an easier time getting residency? Law school is no different, it is a good old boys elitest club, and I commend Cooley on trying to go against this trend, but it will never happen. People who defend Cooley either (1) go there and have no other choice but to defend it for sake of their own honor or (2) are the village idiots who are completely out of touch with the legal profession.

With your numbers, you are absolutely insane to debate this. Get a massive scholarship and go to MSU or Wayne if you have to stay in the area (Wayne places very well in Detroit, and MSU has quickly risen to become a well respected T2 school). University of Michigan is obviously the best, but if you are on a tight budget, look to Wayne and MSU, as they are both very well respected in Michigan.

There is plenty of Cooley bashing out there, and I am not going to pile it on, but please do your research. Don't think you will be able to transfer out, because law school is not like undergrad, and it is very difficult to transfer out with the curves and the competition. Furthermore, with Michigan's economy, attending a school with such a poor reputation is not a good idea. You are making more waiting at tables than many law grads are right now. Furthermore, you cannot work more than 20 hours in law school. Not only because it would be impossible to pass 1L year if you did, but because the ABA mandates that all students work no more than 20 hours, and if you are caught, you can get kicked out of school. This compiles the debt. If you are going to go into debt, it might as well be over a well respected school that places well even in a down market. For their on-campus interviews for 2L summer associate positions (OCIs) I think Wayne and MSU both had like 25 firms visit. University of Michigan had 500 firms. You know what the average salary was for these summer jobs? $2000/week. Yes, that's right, $30,000 for three months of work. I am unsure what Cooley's OCI numbers are, but I can assure you they are nowhere near what the top schools pull in (Cooley doesn't like to publish this type of information).

I know what it is like out there because I just graduated law school and am sitting for the Michigan bar next week. It's rough out here, with Detroit in the shape it is. Grand Rapids is doing okay. Varnum hired some of my friends and started them out at just over 100K. It can be done, but it takes a lot of work and a reputable school. If you are scoring that high on your LSAT and have such a high GPA, I know you are smart enough to make the right choice. 
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: newlawkid on July 18, 2011, 11:48:46 PM
Thanks for all the comments. I looked up the six law schools in Michigan on Gradschools.usnews.rankingsan dreviews.com and found out that the average starting salary between even Wayne State (tier 3) and Cooley is an extra zero on the end. I definitely see the logic. If transferring is as hard as you say, I guess I'll just keep plugging away at a BA. From what I read, it's not like undergrad where you just pick your classes and show up; it actually matters if you follow the program (yes?).  If I were going to transfer - supposing I could with an A.A. - would they look at Cooley the same way, making it difficult there as well?

oh and re: the following
3.  Did you prep for that 173?  If not, prep for the next one.  (There are inexpensive ways to do this, btw.) 
I took it in October of Senior year (H.S) for extra credit for my employment law class. It was friggin looong but kind of fun over all. No idea what I was doing, but my parent used to get me those puzzle books where six friends sit in six seats and eat six different types of pies and you put 'em in order yada yada yada. And I guessed at the rest. I'm pretty sure I just got lucky.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: FalconJimmy on July 19, 2011, 01:12:16 PM
Kid, you are like a young man with a 95 mile per hour fastball who is being offerred a 5 million contract but instead is thinking he should try coaching high school baseball.

If you did that well in High School, with a little preparation, you could find yourself someplace really, really astounding.

I'm sure I'm not the only one here who is looking at you and thinking:

1.  Astronomical GPA.
2.  Fantastic LSAT and quite likely huge room for improvement if you prep for your next try.
3.  Working and supporting a family while completing undergrad?  That's the type of personal statement that admissions committees fall all over themselves to rush an acceptance to.

You should be setting your sights on Harvard and Yale. 

Anything else and you're wasting your potential.

My offer to buy you lunch to try and sell this to you is still on the table.  You would be wasting your talent to go to Cooley or any other school like that.

From what you've written, you have an extraordinary intellect.  It will be your shot to big money and a better life than you ever dreamed possible. 

If you throw this away, you'll regret it forever.  I know I keep saying that, but it's true.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: FalconJimmy on July 19, 2011, 01:13:24 PM
Do realize law school or any form of education is a LONG-TERM investment. As far as the good old boys club goes it might be true in some places and not true in others. People will bash and say good things blah blah, but at the end of the day no matter what school you go whether you succeed or fail will be on you.

Bigs, you know I respect your perspective, but seriously, if you're talking about the difference between attending Cooley, even with a full-ride, and attending, say, NYU or U of Chicago or UMich even at sticker price, surely you would not advise a person to go to Cooley.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: john4040 on July 19, 2011, 02:59:41 PM
Thanks for all the comments. I looked up the six law schools in Michigan on Gradschools.usnews.rankingsan dreviews.com and found out that the average starting salary between even Wayne State (tier 3) and Cooley is an extra zero on the end......

This seems like huge flame, but I'll bite:

You would be absolutely stupid to attend Cooley with those numbers - even on full scholarship.  You are a lock at most of the T14 and are highly competitive at HYS.  Most of the T14 is worth attending at full price and it would be worth it to go ahead and get a bachelor's degree. 


Bottom line:  If you are considering attending Cooley over a T14, I question your ability to make a rational thought, and you have no business practicing law.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: newlawkid on July 19, 2011, 08:42:11 PM
Ouch. Well I guess I see the point. Long term it would make more sense. It's just really hard to envision another 5 years being too broke to buy diapers on the chance that I could get into U of M or State.

(Not to divert from the thread, but -) Do you see many women in biglaw? I only ask because if I'm limited to small town law firms anyway, it might be better to just get it over with. Wouldn't being top 5% of a class make up for the fact that it's a school with poor reputation?

Not sure what "huge flame" means, but to clarify, the average starting salary for a cooley grad is 47K and the average for a Wayne State grad is either 70K or 100K depending on year/website. I'm pretty sure I was agreeing with you.. :)
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: FalconJimmy on July 19, 2011, 09:21:31 PM
Ouch. Well I guess I see the point. Long term it would make more sense. It's just really hard to envision another 5 years being too broke to buy diapers on the chance that I could get into U of M or State.

Forget State.  Just forget it. 

Michigan, Stanford, Harvard, Yale... basically focus on the first 8 or so in the US News rankings. 

Forget all the others.

(Not to divert from the thread, but -) Do you see many women in biglaw?

The only two people I personally knew who made it into biglaw were both women.

Wouldn't being top 5% of a class make up for the fact that it's a school with poor reputation?

No way in hell is being top 5% at Cooley going to open any real doors for you.  What it will do is make you part of the very small minority of Cooley grads who find a job.  It won't make you competitive with the best graduates from the best schools.  What it will do is make you competitive with average graduates from average schools.


Not sure what "huge flame" means, but to clarify, the average starting salary for a cooley grad is 47K and the average for a Wayne State grad is either 70K or 100K depending on year/website. I'm pretty sure I was agreeing with you.. :)

My guess is that the real number in both those cases is about half what those schools claim.

Go to U of M or a school better than U of M. 

If you don't believe me, just post a few posts asking recent grads of poorly regarded schools how they're doing in their job search.

Going to Cooley is, at best, a chance to compete for very low-paying jobs if you totally kick ass in law school.  For the vast majority of cooley grads, it's a fast track to unemployment in this hiring climate.

Cooley right now is a cheap shortcut.

You're going to get what you pay for, and you're going to end up with what most people get when they try to go for an easy shortcut.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: JDGuy86 on July 19, 2011, 09:34:24 PM


This seems like huge flame, but I'll bite:

[/quote]

Yes, very huge flame. Way off topic, and oozing of T14 or bust elitism.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: john4040 on July 19, 2011, 09:39:06 PM
Yes, very huge flame. Way off topic, and oozing of T14 or bust elitism.

Eh?
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: john4040 on July 19, 2011, 09:53:08 PM
Ouch. Well I guess I see the point. Long term it would make more sense. It's just really hard to envision another 5 years being too broke to buy diapers on the chance that I could get into U of M or State.

Take out loans.  If you can get into the top 5 or so, chances are you'll be able to pay the loans off fairly quickly and have greater earning potential throughout your career.

(Not to divert from the thread, but -) Do you see many women in biglaw?

Yes.  However, many women in biglaw allege that there is a glass ceiling when being considered for partnership.  There is evidence to support their position.

Wouldn't being top 5% of a class make up for the fact that it's a school with poor reputation?

1.  I would not take that chance (Kids at TTTs are wildly competitive because there are a limited amount of jobs, performance in law school is not highly correlated with UGPA and LSAT score, and statistically, there's a great chance you won't end up in the top 5%);

2. Locally, yes.  Nationally, no.

Not sure what "huge flame" means....

It means you're bullsh1tting me.

the average starting salary for a cooley grad is 47K and the average for a Wayne State grad is either 70K or 100K depending on year/website.

Ummm... no.  Those salaries are compiled from the cream-of-the-crop of the class (the schools allow students to self-report their starting salaries - usually, only the top earners disclose their salaries).  Average starting salaries for those schools are probably around the $45K mark.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: Hamilton on July 20, 2011, 06:11:22 AM
Not sure what "huge flame" means,

The vearcity of the whole "story" is suspect.  If it is a flame, well, still getting a fair and honest response.  If it's not, you can understand that the narrative is outside of the norm and there is no way to verify.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: Pdukes on August 12, 2011, 12:58:51 PM
You can always defer your debt until you get a decent job.  Its not too bad once you start paying.  Payments are roughly 300/month.  That is really not much considering people pay over $100 for cell phones and $60 for a gym membership.  Making 50k out of school is reasonable and $300-400/month will not break you by any means.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: fortook on August 12, 2011, 01:08:38 PM
$300 a month?  I envy you.  For the typical grad with say 120k, the payments are closer to $1000 per month.
 
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: jack24 on August 12, 2011, 01:15:32 PM
You can always defer your debt until you get a decent job.  Its not too bad once you start paying.  Payments are roughly 300/month.  That is really not much considering people pay over $100 for cell phones and $60 for a gym membership.  Making 50k out of school is reasonable and $300-400/month will not break you by any means.

This is a fine argument if you really want to be a lawyer because of the day-to-day work.   But there are a lot of ways to make $50,000 without going into so much debt, not to mention the fact that law school takes three years out of your career.

Also, are you using IBR (income based repayment program) numbers for the repayment amounts?   A 50,000 student loan is 387.65 for 20 years.  Since Cooley's tuition is $30,000 a year and most students don't have substantial scholarships past the first year, I'd have to bet that the huge majority have $100,000+ in debt.  A $100,000 loan is $775 a month for 20 years.

However, if you make $50,000 your IBR payments on $100,000 will probably be:

205/month if you have a family of 4 
280/month if you have a family of 3
350/month if you have a family of 2
and
420/month if you are single with no kids.

Then everything you haven't paid after 25 years is forgiven.  But remember that your payments go up when your income goes up.  So if you hit it big 15 years from now, you'll have to pay all of it back including the massive amounts of interest.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: lawyerintraining on August 13, 2011, 07:53:23 PM
so hitting it big is a bad thing? Isn't that like trying to pick bad lottery ticket numbers so to avoid taxes?
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: pslaw2011 on August 13, 2011, 08:43:36 PM
To continue the income based repayment, if you work in "public service" ie: government, nonprofit (501c3 nonprofit - not political or unions), or academia your loans are forgiven after 10 years instead of 25. And, you can pay back your loans on income based repayment & have them forgiven after 10 years of public service.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: jack24 on August 13, 2011, 11:27:24 PM
so hitting it big is a bad thing? Isn't that like trying to pick bad lottery ticket numbers so to avoid taxes?

It's not bad to hit it big, but it's bad to pay large loans off slowly only to have to pay them completely off at the end.  It's better to hit it big faster.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: fortook on August 14, 2011, 07:06:44 AM
so hitting it big is a bad thing? Isn't that like trying to pick bad lottery ticket numbers so to avoid taxes?

I know who you are.  Same logical fallacies, same consistent missing of the point, same directionless aggression; I knew you wouldn't be gone for long.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: Pdukes on August 15, 2011, 07:51:42 PM
by any means.

This is a fine argument if you really want to be a lawyer because of the day-to-day work.   But there are a lot of ways to make $50,000 without going into so much debt, not to mention the fact that law school takes three years out of your career.

Also, are you using IBR (income based repayment program) numbers for the repayment amounts?   A 50,000 student loan is 387.65 for 20 years.  Since Cooley's tuition is $30,000 a year and most students don't have substantial scholarships past the first year, I'd have to bet that the huge majority have $100,000+ in debt.  A $100,000 loan is $775 a month for 20 years.

However, if you make $50,000 your IBR payments on $100,000 will probably be:

205/month if you have a family of 4 
280/month if you have a family of 3
350/month if you have a family of 2
and
420/month if you are single with no kids.

Then everything you haven't paid after 25 years is forgiven.  But remember that your payments go up when your income goes up.  So if you hit it big 15 years from now, you'll have to pay all of it back including the massive amounts of interest.



Sure you could sell drugs and make 50k but I think 50k is a legit salary for a 25-30 yr old trying to start a life.  Another 5 yrs down the road if not set up to be partner 75k would be a realistic salary amount.  So at that point you could piss out 420/month regardless of what your debt balance is you have a law degree that can never be taken away.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: lawyerintraining on August 15, 2011, 08:42:12 PM
so why not all just join the marines? Don't they pay it off for you? We'll need ground troops for Libya and Iran soon anyways.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: barond on August 16, 2011, 09:09:09 PM
Your a jackass lawyerintraining.   Wait until you step inside a law school before you start running your mouth.  All this pyscho babble coming from you is insanely idiotic.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: fortook on August 16, 2011, 09:21:59 PM
He's CooleyLawStudent.  Been behaving like this for awhile now.  I'm not sure why.  He can't be as stupid as he comes off, he just can't be.  I'm being serious about that, btw.  Maybe he's trying to raise pulses?  Idk. 

And no, the Marines will not pay for your law school.  The GI Bill does not apply 1) retroactively and 2) to professional schools.  If you go into JAG, you just get paid a salary, just like everyone else- that's it. A good question is: does JAG count as public service and thus qualify for loan forgiveness?  I suspect not, now I thought about it for a sec.

What are they telling you kids at Cooley?  When you graduate you will not be beating off the job offers with a stick.  You won't get a job day two after graduation.  Its not all peaches and cream. 
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: lawyerintraining on August 16, 2011, 10:44:01 PM
I'm planning Regent. Not saying it's better than anyother school(though God may differ) but whats that have to do with cooley?
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: FalconJimmy on August 17, 2011, 07:10:54 AM
I've mentioned this a few times, and I think we all know that Cooley is what it is.

However, they appear to have, hands-down, the most generous scholarships of any law school out there.  I could have gotten 3/4 ride there.  With another point or two on the LSAT, I could have gone with a full-ride.

So, if graduating with 100K of debt is a problem, Cooley actually is a school that might reduce your chances of graduating in debt.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: fortook on August 17, 2011, 08:05:20 AM
I didn't really mean to put Cooley down directly.  I was just saying that kid goes there, I've seen him before.  Oh well, too much time wasted on this already.

Which Army program offers loan repayment?  That's pretty nice.  The military only offers that stuff in areas they have trouble staffing and to the best of my knowledge,  they don't have a problem staffing professional and admin positions, which of course includes JAG lawyers.  Very interesting, regardless.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: FalconJimmy on August 17, 2011, 08:39:28 AM
Which Army program offers loan repayment?  That's pretty nice.  The military only offers that stuff in areas they have trouble staffing and to the best of my knowledge,  they don't have a problem staffing professional and admin positions, which of course includes JAG lawyers.  Very interesting, regardless.

You've got a good handle on this.  In the past, it was hard to fill JAG vacancies, but they're pretty competitive these days.  However, it's not unusual to get loan forgiveness on various programs.  Worth taking a good look at.

Also, for those not sure they want to make a full-time committment, national guard and reserves sometimes offer loan forgiveness and signing bonuses.  Just keep in mind that national guard and reserves are two different programs with two different sets of recruiters.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: lawyerintraining on August 17, 2011, 09:28:00 AM
When I was in the army a few years ago, people with a BA or more would go in as an E-4 instead of officer to get it ALL paid off. Just do a tour, get out as a Sgt, reup if you want to be an officer, take lifetime veterans benefits either way if not.

Not hard guys.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: haus on August 17, 2011, 09:30:55 PM
The GI Bill does not apply 1) retroactively and 2) to professional schools.

While you are correct that the GI Bill would not pay retroactively. If, on the other hand, you go into the service and do your time, you can then use your GI Bill towards graduate programs to include Law or Business.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: lawyerintraining on August 18, 2011, 10:50:03 AM
The GI Bill does not apply 1) retroactively and 2) to professional schools.

While you are correct that the GI Bill would not pay retroactively. If, on the other hand, you go into the service and do your time, you can then use your GI Bill towards graduate programs to include Law or Business.

More to the military than just the GI bills guys. I don't know how long you've been out, but here is some info from the horse's mouth.

http://www.military.com/Resources/ResourcesContent/0%2C13964%2C44245--%2C00.html

http://asc.army.mil/career/programs/slrp/default.cfm

When it doubt, ask the source. It always amazes me how little "lawstudents" and "lawyers" know about simple research.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: haus on August 18, 2011, 01:19:11 PM
More to the military than just the GI bills guys. I don't know how long you've been out, but here is some info from the horse's mouth.

http://www.military.com/Resources/ResourcesContent/0%2C13964%2C44245--%2C00.html

http://asc.army.mil/career/programs/slrp/default.cfm

When it doubt, ask the source. It always amazes me how little "lawstudents" and "lawyers" know about simple research.

I never said that the GI Bill was the only source available, but in most cases it is the centerpiece of the educational benefits available to veterans, also military.com is not what I would consider as "from the horse's mouth."
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: lawyerintraining on August 20, 2011, 02:47:54 PM
More to the military than just the GI bills guys. I don't know how long you've been out, but here is some info from the horse's mouth.

http://www.military.com/Resources/ResourcesContent/0%2C13964%2C44245--%2C00.html

http://asc.army.mil/career/programs/slrp/default.cfm

When it doubt, ask the source. It always amazes me how little "lawstudents" and "lawyers" know about simple research.

I never said that the GI Bill was the only source available, but in most cases it is the centerpiece of the educational benefits available to veterans, also military.com is not what I would consider as "from the horse's mouth."

No duh, but the govt link is. (not hard)
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: haus on August 20, 2011, 04:14:57 PM
No duh

A quality response from someone hoping to be an attorney.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: fortook on August 20, 2011, 05:49:23 PM
Now children
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: lawyerintraining on August 21, 2011, 05:33:56 PM
More to the military than just the GI bills guys. I don't know how long you've been out, but here is some info from the horse's mouth.

http://www.military.com/Resources/ResourcesContent/0%2C13964%2C44245--%2C00.html

http://asc.army.mil/career/programs/slrp/default.cfm

When it doubt, ask the source. It always amazes me how little "lawstudents" and "lawyers" know about simple research.

I never said that the GI Bill was the only source available, but in most cases it is the centerpiece of the educational benefits available to veterans, also military.com is not what I would consider as "from the horse's mouth."

No duh, but the govt link is. (not hard)

 :'(

Read a case (or watch one) once in awhile. You'd be suprised.  :-X
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: haus on August 21, 2011, 08:01:08 PM
Just because idiots exist within the field of law, does not mean this is the level that one should aspire to.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: pslaw2011 on August 21, 2011, 09:11:48 PM
Just because idiots exist within the field of law, does not mean this is the level that one should aspire to.

Seriously! Professionalism has little to do with your lsat score; its a skill anyone can gain.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: perception7136 on September 30, 2011, 10:43:25 AM
biggs5068 is absolutely correct.

 In fact you don't even have to have gone to law school to receive a judgement in your favor in a court of law.  Armed with this fact, the argument over where you graduated from law school is over.  In a lawsuit against their landlord decades ago, my late friend and his girlfriend represented themselves.   They were suing for a full refund of their deposit. The landlords attorney argued they did not deserve a refund due to the damages they made to their low-rent apartment mainly a cavernous hole in the plaster wall. He had submitted several photographs as evidence. My friend and his girlfriend submitted as evidence a photograph in court showing the two of them clowning in front of this exact hole in the wall.  The judge studied their photo briefly and rendered his verdict in their favor.  The defendant pays all court costs.     

You see, the photo my friend and his girlfriend produced was developed at McJon's Photofinishing in Fort Wayne Indiana.  McJon dates and timestamps all of the photos they develop.   The date on the photo my friends produced was just over a week before they signed the lease.  Substance was all that mattered in the judgement.  The landlords attorney could have requested all the motions and fancy moves he wished (and he did and they were denied) but in the end the judge simply saw substance.  My friend and his girlfriend had proved they deserved their deposit returned to them.

My friend and his girlfriend were high school graduates.  I don't know where the attorney went to law school.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: fortook on September 30, 2011, 08:21:22 PM
I get what you are trying to say, but do you need to take such a long and irrelevant route?  I have seen many people represent themselves in court, civil and criminal, and ALL of instances have been a disaster to the self represented.  Not once have I seen it go well for them.  I saw one poor guy loose his apartment because he didn't know when and what to object to, meaning the plaintiff introduced here say.  Had he, he'd probably still be living there.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: justanothersucker on October 02, 2011, 12:59:50 PM
what's here say? Is it when you ask someone to say it over here instead of over there?  ;D

That would be an example of what a prof would still give points for on an exam though, for those 0L's interested.

Back on point, yeah more knowledge vs full knowledge, who do you think wins? Kind of like expecting someone with anorexia to win a boxing competition. Could the ref feel bad and try to help out with points (like a sympathetic judge might) sure. Will it matter? Not enough.

I get what you are trying to say, but do you need to take such a long and irrelevant route?  I have seen many people represent themselves in court, civil and criminal, and ALL of instances have been a disaster to the self represented.  Not once have I seen it go well for them.  I saw one poor guy loose his apartment because he didn't know when and what to object to, meaning the plaintiff introduced here say.  Had he, he'd probably still be living there.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: fortook on October 02, 2011, 04:46:34 PM
He he, opps, spell check, sorry.  "hearsay"  The case I mentioned, the judge usually did go out of his way to help the unrepresented (even so, they still usually lost).  There he did not, however.  I think there were either politics or some kind of good ol'boy relationship on the side.  The complex that evicted that guy did so often with others, so was connected with the court staff, including the judge.  I wanted to scream object, man, just object- hearsay.  He kept quite because that is what he thought he was supposed to do.  200 bucks for a cheap attorney or a legal aid application could have saved that guy his home.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: FalconJimmy on October 03, 2011, 06:40:27 AM
200 bucks for a cheap attorney

Something tells me that an attorney who will spend a day in court for $200 wasn't going to be good enough to help him much.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: justanothersucker on October 03, 2011, 01:59:32 PM
Free legal aid will do most of the legwork for free. They are still better than the GED the average american who "knows it all" and "ain't my fault" has.

If you go into combat, is it best to have a gun? Yeah. If your choices are a canopener or your own fists, use the can opener though dude.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: goblue83 on May 15, 2012, 12:59:35 AM
I agree with alot said about Cooley.  I myself just recently finished my JD at Cooley and am not completing my LLM there also.  Before I go any farther I will admit the only reason I went to Cooley is because I received an 85% scholarship.  I would recommend that going to Cooley with a 50% scholarship or better is not that bad.  I will have my JD/LLM and less than 24K in federal loans.  If you are going to move to Michigan and live on loans and graduate with 200k debt to go to Cooley, well, just don't.  It's probably not a wise idea.  Another thing is the students are clearly separated.   Those on scholarship, tend to have LSAT scores atleast of 158 and tend to do much better than those who don't.   Further a ton of kids didn't make it passed 1L year.   Now the pros and cons, teachers are great, facilities are top notched, extra help is everywhere and I thought that was wonderful.  Students for the most part are great people from all different parts of life trying to graduate. 

The negative is well the IDIOTS in the administration who write these stupid rankings of their own.  It is such a joke and pisses me off a ton, don't reinvent the wheel just do your best and hopefully gain positive attraction over time instead of creating these fabricated rankings.   Next Cooley has this absurd honor code that is the biggest joke of all time and completely pathetic.  My time at Cooley was torn as I was accepted to Wayne State and other more prestigious law firms.    At the end of the day if you can get accepted to a top 20 law school go at all cost and take out the loans otherwise go to the cheapest.

Hope this helps.... take the LSAT a bunch get a 155 and get the 50% scholarship bust through cooley in 2 years and you can take the bar with 50-60k loans, that my recommendation if you cant get in anywhere else.  BOTTOM LINE KEEP YOUR DEBT LOW!
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: Johnathan Carter on May 25, 2013, 12:20:53 AM
Thomas. M. Cooley Law School has instilled in many of its graduates the skills necessary to become a successful. It's difficult to argue to with facts. Here is the link to SuperLawyers who have graduated from Thomas M. Cooley Law School: http://www.superlawyers.com/lawschool/The-Thomas-M-Cooley-Law-School/fad6dc18-84c4-102c-aca4-000e0c6dcf76.html

In addition, Thomas M. Cooley Law School is one of the larger law schools in the U.S. meaning that it a graduate of the school has a larger network of alumni to refer work to and from.
Title: Re: Is Cooley Law School That Bad?
Post by: Citylaw on September 17, 2013, 06:34:42 PM
I have never set foot on the Cooley campus, but I imagine it is a lot like every other law school and has some great profs and admins and some idiots. Same as any law firm, government agency, etc.

I don't think Cooley is going to wow employers or result in instantaneous job offers, but if you graduate from there and pass the bar your a licensed attorney. What you do with your law license has a lot more to do with you than the name of the school on your diploma.

I do agree publishing their own rankings is a little ridiculous and makes them the target of many bloggers who have likely never set foot in a law school classroom. I personally think any magazine ranking a law school is a Joke U.S. News included and Cooley spending their time on their own publication, which ranks them highly seems odd.

With that said your first year at Cooley, Wayne State, or any of the other 200 ABA law schools you will take these courses Torts, Contracts, Property, Civil Procedure, and Criminal Law. In these courses you will read Supreme Court cases and believe it or not the Supremes don't' write separate opinions for each law school.  The law is the law simply put.

There are some solid points about scholarships and if you can get a large scholarship at Cooley you may be a lot better off than paying full price at Michigan or Wayne State.

Bottom line is I am sure Cooley will teach you the law. Do not expect anything to be handed to you from there, but if you pass the bar and hustle you can have a successful career as an attorney.