Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Choosing the Right Law School => Topic started by: bigs5068 on February 19, 2010, 02:51:04 PM

Title: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: bigs5068 on February 19, 2010, 02:51:04 PM
I just wanted to say as a T-4 student, to not listen to all the things people say on this site. No school kicks out 25% of their class, the 25% attrition rate includes transfers.  On LSAC my school had a 25% attrirtion rate, but we had 32 transfers out that ended up going to higher ranked schools after their first year.  In reality only 8% or so got kicked out for academics and a lot of them were night students who were balancing careers and going to law school, which is really difficult to do.

No matter what ABA school you end up going to you will learn the same things, consideration in a contract is the same whether you went to Cooley or Harvard.

Certinaly employment from a T-4 will be harder for me than a Harvard student, but you are not unhireable. I found a summer job already that I am very satisfied with, but obvioulsy you are not going to have the same doors open to you as a Harvard Grad. However, once you start distinguishing between the 73rd and 101st best school does it really matter? It seems ridiclous to me.   

My whole reason for writing this is that I almost made the worst decision of my life going to a higher ranked school in an area I had no desire to live in. Relying on what I read on this board I thought the T-4 I was going to would be horrible and kick me out, but that is far from the truth everybody is supportive, I made a lot of friends, and I have learned a lot. My main point is that go to a school in a location you want to live in as opposed to what it is ranked. I am not trying to say that my school is Harvard or Yale those schools will open doors that will probably be closed to me.

Bottom line if you want to be a lawyer and are willing to put in the work that law school requuires and you only get into a T-4 then go. If you like the law you will be happy, but as I said some doors will be closed if you aspire to be a U.s. Supreme Court Judge and you won't be satisfied with your career unless that happens then do not go toa t-4, but if you want to be a lawyer and are willing to put in the work it will work out. THE END.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: nealric on February 20, 2010, 03:29:15 PM
We just had this discussion in students and graduates. It's really beating a dead horse.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: bigs5068 on February 20, 2010, 05:24:11 PM
Yes it has, but I wanted to officially make one individual thread saying it. The reason I put it out there one more time is because there are about 20 million posts on here knocking lower ranked schools and I wanted to defend them and let people know what they hear is not true. 

I  remember being terrified about going to a T-4 based on what I read on the internet and I wanted to alleviate the fear of someone in the same position I was in last year.

Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: cooleylawstudent on February 20, 2010, 05:43:01 PM
I agree, I tried saying the same thing but yahoo's would point the lsac lists that you described and refuse to believe that people would voluntarily quit or transfer. Seems like common sense to me.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: bigs5068 on February 20, 2010, 07:19:08 PM
LSAC really should change how they measure that stat, because it can really be misconstrued granted they do list the transfers out on the website, but they should include that the attrition rates include transfers.

I guess my main reason for posting this is that the U.S. News and Rankings really aggravates me they are the real scam and not any of the ABA approved law schools. Tell me how they tell the difference between the 83rd and 114 best law school, I mean that is ridiculous. Outside of the national law schools i.e. Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Georgetown and so on all the rest of the schools are only known in their local area. I remember working as a paralegal in New York and telling attorneys I really wanted to go to Pepperdine or Hastings, nobody any idea what either of those schools were. They are both really good schools, but outside of California nobody really knows about them. 

Before I moved out there I had never heard of Cardozo law school or Hofstra, which are also respectable places. I mean really how do they measure the difference between Willliamette, Gonzaga, Florida International University, and Texas Wesleyan seriously how do measure the difference you can't. Another example I will give is University of San Francisco in 2007 was ranked something like 72 in 2008 they apparently did something so atrocious that dropped them to tier 3 so 30 some odd law schools all the sudden became better than them over one year. Then the next year they were back up to 70 or so. I doubt a 1L starting in 2007 noticed any dramatic changes during the time they were in law school when the rankings fluctuated 30 spots.

The ABA specifically says to ignore the rankings on their website and it just seems like complete B.S. that a private organization can use their own subjective opinions to raise or drop a school's status I mean how do they tell. I mean good for Cooley for making their own ranking that puts them at number 1. I feel like they did that as a F U to the U.S. News and I think it is awesome of them.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: mnewboldc on April 25, 2010, 02:16:38 PM
In an economy where there are rumors that some T-14 2L's at the MEDIAN can't find summer interships in the cities where their schools are located, any argument for attending a T3 or T4 school simply cannot be taken seriously.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: cooleylawstudent on April 25, 2010, 02:43:59 PM
Some recycled BS, "Its not worth it, shovel graves instead"Vs"the economy is bad for all career",  :P

In an economy where there are rumors that some T-14 2L's at the MEDIAN can't find summer interships in the cities where their schools are located, any argument for attending a T3 or T4 school simply cannot be taken seriously.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: bigs5068 on May 03, 2010, 10:14:08 PM
In an economy where there are rumors that some T-14 2L's at the MEDIAN can't find summer interships in the cities where their schools are located, any argument for attending a T3 or T4 school simply cannot be taken seriously.

Rumors of people not being able to find jobs!!! OH MY GOD NO!!!!!!! So you are saying that if someone goes to law school they may not get a job? I heard that argument before and then I went to talk to the other academic programs at my school since a J.D. doesn't guarantee me anything, but it was the weirdest thing apparently M.B.A's, Clinical Psychologists, and even M.D.'s and basically every other academic program can't guarantee a job. Weird right?  

Apparently just getting an education doesn't guarantee you a job.  I know it is impossible to get a job handed to you if you go to a tier 4, but I came up with this WILD IDEA and sent my resumes into a few firms and actually showed up for an interview and got hired. I know it's a radical concept that you actually have to try to find a job, but that is the horrors of going to a tier 3 or 4 you have to put in an ounce of effort. As you said these t-14 student's probably didn't accept that they might have to put an ounce of effort in and of actually doing something they just female dog and moaning that nobody is handing them a job. Welcome to real life is all I can say. At the end of the day just saying I go to so and so school doesn't matter. You got to put effort in to succeed in life.  Shocking concept for spoiled rich kids I know, but some people actually have to put work in.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: Trivium on May 04, 2010, 12:15:15 PM
I go to a T-25 and when we have visiting professors here they are terrible compared to the quality of education you get from the actual profs. The subject matter may be the same, but that doesn't mean you learn it as well. That's one difference.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: bigs5068 on May 04, 2010, 03:30:57 PM
No doubt about it, obviously a T-25 is going to have better professors. Except in the case of location. I am sure a lot of profs would rather teach at Golden Gate a tier 4 in the heart of San Francisco, opposed to say University of Kansas or Nebraska higher ranked schools in the middle of Nowhere. Professors have lives and location matters they won't give a rats ass what a school is ranked if they have to live in the Boondocks.  However, I am sure professors at Stanford are better than the ones at my school since location is the same.

However, even if you have a bad professor you can still the learn the stuff. I am capable of doing this thing called reading  the textbook and a lot of times reading that thing can teach you a thing or two.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: the white rabbit on May 04, 2010, 07:35:49 PM
Welcome to real life is all I can say. At the end of the day just saying I go to so and so school doesn't matter. You got to put effort in to succeed in life.  Shocking concept for spoiled rich kids I know, but some people actually have to put work in.

I don't think you're allowed to comment on how easy or difficult it is to find full-time legal employment until you've actually found full-time legal employment.  An internship isn't quite the same thing.

Also, most law students at the top schools are not "spoiled rich kids."
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: willametterules on May 04, 2010, 07:37:37 PM
I can name several T4s that have attrition rates in excess of 10% - 25% due to flunk outs.... #1 Cooley.  This isn't a Cooley bash, but the whole attrition rate (flunking out) is primarily night students and those who decided the law isn't for them is admissions rhetoric.  Usually a solid 1/2 or higher of the stated attrition rate are those who don't academically cut it or are close to academic probation and opt out.  T4s aren't a death sentence for the right people, but SEVERAL of the lower ranked schools lose students to academic failure all 3 years of law school... that NEVER happens at higher ranked schools.  Someone mentioned Willamette, if you ever go sub 2.0 in any semester after 1L you are dismissed, doesn't matter what your overall GPA truly is... (a professor there handling transfers warned me away because of this ludicrous policy).
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 04, 2010, 07:41:25 PM
Ever think thats since they just pass you for showing up? For science, the T1's should show up high, and sleep and replace essays with smiley faces and pictures of weewees and see if they still pass.....for science!

I can name several T4s that have attrition rates in excess of 10% - 25% due to flunk outs.... #1 Cooley.  This isn't a Cooley bash, but the whole attrition rate (flunking out) is primarily night students and those who decided the law isn't for them is admissions rhetoric.  Usually a solid 1/2 or higher of the stated attrition rate are those who don't academically cut it or are close to academic probation and opt out.  T4s aren't a death sentence for the right people, but SEVERAL of the lower ranked schools lose students to academic failure all 3 years of law school... that NEVER happens at higher ranked schools.  Someone mentioned Willamette, if you ever go sub 2.0 in any semester after 1L you are dismissed, doesn't matter what your overall GPA truly is... (a professor there handling transfers warned me away because of this ludicrous policy).
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 04, 2010, 07:46:17 PM
why would a school want to flunk out someone with a 3.5 for a bad term? How does that make them money?

I can name several T4s that have attrition rates in excess of 10% - 25% due to flunk outs.... #1 Cooley.  This isn't a Cooley bash, but the whole attrition rate (flunking out) is primarily night students and those who decided the law isn't for them is admissions rhetoric.  Usually a solid 1/2 or higher of the stated attrition rate are those who don't academically cut it or are close to academic probation and opt out.  T4s aren't a death sentence for the right people, but SEVERAL of the lower ranked schools lose students to academic failure all 3 years of law school... that NEVER happens at higher ranked schools.  Someone mentioned Willamette, if you ever go sub 2.0 in any semester after 1L you are dismissed, doesn't matter what your overall GPA truly is... (a professor there handling transfers warned me away because of this ludicrous policy).
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: bigs5068 on May 04, 2010, 08:37:30 PM
I know an internship is not the same thing and I never once said a T-4 is the same thing as a top tier school. Then to the point about Tier 1's never flunking people out that is not good. Tier 4's are honest and do not pass someone that can't pass the bar. They won't take your money for another two years if you can't muster a 2.0 in your first year.  I know two people from Hastings that were at the bottom of their class for all 3 years and neither of them passed the bar. So they were just ripped off a degree from a good school without passing the bar really doesn't mean much. 

In regards to the attrition the reason it is so high is as a result of transfers and almost all tier 4's have part time programs, where full-time workers try to balance a career and law school, which is really hard and they fail out. Then at a tier 4 maybe other schools I don't know just don't put in the work.  There are these two girls that are literally on the internet the whole time in class and shocking they are on academic probation. 

Like anything in life if you put the work in it will generally work out. Would I have been stoked to go to Harvard hell yea! Is GGU the same as Harvard or Stanford or even Hastings NO! Not even close.  Is GGU out to ruin your life No! They want you to succeed any school does.



Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 04, 2010, 08:52:13 PM
but what about the fact that employers are LESS likely to hire you with a T4 degree than someone who never set foot in lawschool? ::)
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: the white rabbit on May 04, 2010, 09:03:56 PM
I never once said a T-4 is the same thing as a top tier school.

And I never said you did.  I'm merely pointing out that you are criticizing people who are further along in the process than you are without any knowledge of what it's like to be there.

Like anything in life if you put the work in it will generally work out.

There's no reason to think that all or even most things in life will work out if you work hard.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 04, 2010, 09:23:09 PM
sounds like you just suck dude.

I never once said a T-4 is the same thing as a top tier school.

And I never said you did.  I'm merely pointing out that you are criticizing people who are further along in the process than you are without any knowledge of what it's like to be there.

Like anything in life if you put the work in it will generally work out.

There's no reason to think that all or even most things in life will work out if you work hard.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: willametterules on May 04, 2010, 10:17:03 PM
why would a school want to flunk out someone with a 3.5 for a bad term? How does that make them money?

I can name several T4s that have attrition rates in excess of 10% - 25% due to flunk outs.... #1 Cooley.  This isn't a Cooley bash, but the whole attrition rate (flunking out) is primarily night students and those who decided the law isn't for them is admissions rhetoric.  Usually a solid 1/2 or higher of the stated attrition rate are those who don't academically cut it or are close to academic probation and opt out.  T4s aren't a death sentence for the right people, but SEVERAL of the lower ranked schools lose students to academic failure all 3 years of law school... that NEVER happens at higher ranked schools.  Someone mentioned Willamette, if you ever go sub 2.0 in any semester after 1L you are dismissed, doesn't matter what your overall GPA truly is... (a professor there handling transfers warned me away because of this ludicrous policy).

I asked the same question... what's the rationale?  He danced around it, but I got the sense that the idea is that they feel anyone who can't maintain a 2.0 at all times is someone they feel may be a wildcard when sitting for the BAR.  Essentially allowing only there best and brightest to sit for the BAR assures a higher BAR pass rate, worth more financially in terms of rankings as well as for recruitment materials.  Also this situation with an A student going sub 2.0 is of course a rarity.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 04, 2010, 10:40:03 PM
so if its a T-4, how is that working for them?
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: the white rabbit on May 05, 2010, 02:25:58 AM
sounds like you just suck dude.

I'm just pointing out things that are true.  I can't help that you don't like them.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 05, 2010, 10:34:11 AM
you suck since you admitt that if you work hard you can't get anything, thats why you suck. Suck on it.....yeah enjoy the taste.... :-*



I never once said a T-4 is the same thing as a top tier school.

And I never said you did.  I'm merely pointing out that you are criticizing people who are further along in the process than you are without any knowledge of what it's like to be there.

Like anything in life if you put the work in it will generally work out.

There's no reason to think that all or even most things in life will work out if you work hard.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: bigs5068 on May 05, 2010, 01:34:32 PM
I said things GENERALLY work out when you put hard work in. That is generally the case obviously there are times you do everything right and it doesn't work out. I tried to make the NBA I did everything I could do, but I am a 6'9 slow white guy that can't jump that high. I tried my best, but it didn't work out. Do I blame my coaches, my teammates, my high school, my college for me not making it? Hell no I was not good enough. I don't blame my school or anyone else for it not working out it was on me. It always baffles me that people complain about their schools when they don't make it.    My coaches would have loved me to make the NBA.  Just like any ABA school wants you to pass the bar and get a good job.  Nobody wants to screw you over.

However, life is somewhat competitive. Even if you put in all the work get good grades and even pass the bar you are not guaranteed a job. A law firm exists to make money or if it is a public interest place to further some cause. Even with a good G.P.A. and a good attitude if you don't have what it takes to make them money or help them achieve their goal they will either not hire you or lay you off.

Just like an NBA team will not draft you or will cut if you are not helping them win games.  That is their bottom line. Nobody owes anybody anything and it just so stupid that people point the finger at everybody else but themselves when they don't succeed. That seems particularly true with law students.

Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 05, 2010, 07:01:05 PM
yeah but some people just like to act like the little bittches they are, thats all.

They get spoonfed yet cry when their burpup gets on their onesie. :'(
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: willametterules on May 05, 2010, 11:48:42 PM
so if its a T-4, how is that working for them?

Get to claim locally that they have the highest bar passage rate and as a result, over enroll larger full tuition paying 1L classes than in previous years.  Higher revenue from more students and higher bar passage rates.  Then they make BS claims to potential enrollees that they would be higher ranked if their national rep were better, dumbasses buy it and enroll... creates an enormous cash cow for the rest of the university.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: the white rabbit on May 06, 2010, 02:32:38 AM
you suck since you admitt that if you work hard you can't get anything, thats why you suck. Suck on it.....yeah enjoy the taste.... :-*

What about my post led you to believe that I was speaking about myself?

I said things GENERALLY work out when you put hard work in.

There's no support for even saying that this is true in general.  This is what we'd all like to think about the world, but that doesn't make it any truer.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: Trivium on May 06, 2010, 05:26:36 AM
Allow me to summarize this thread. T-4s are not as good as T1s, but the T4s are not as bad as the "elitists" make them out to be. I think that should cover it.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: bigs5068 on May 06, 2010, 08:33:54 AM
That does sum it up. Tier 4's are not set on destroying your life and there is a good chance things will work out at a tier 4 your probably not going to be a millionaire, but believe it or not any law school teaches you to be a lawyer. So if being a lawyer is your goal then go to law school. Harvard is also a better school than Cooley or GGU. If you go to Harvard I think you might be a lot smarter than anyone at Cooley or GGU and you will more than likely have a lot more job opportunities, unless you develop a crack addiction or something.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: the white rabbit on May 06, 2010, 09:37:16 PM
any law school teaches you to be a lawyer.

Actually, I think that the consensus is that law schools in general don't do a very good job of teaching students how to be lawyers.  Teaching the law, maybe.  Different things.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 06, 2010, 10:02:16 PM
lawschools teaching law?....Dear God!!!! :o
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: CJScalia on May 07, 2010, 05:59:36 AM
I go to a T-25 and when we have visiting professors here they are terrible compared to the quality of education you get from the actual profs. The subject matter may be the same, but that doesn't mean you learn it as well. That's one difference.

I had a visiting professor from Yale that was absolute *&^%, so that's just plain anecdotal evidence that at the very best is worthless.

Not to mention, law is not complicated, you should be perfectly capable of learning what consideration is even if your professor is a homeless guy spending half the class masturbating at his desk.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: Geesh106 on May 07, 2010, 04:02:37 PM
Bigs,  I've read what you've had to say about Tier 4's, and your pride in your own school, GGU, is apparent.  I'm going to assume that you love your school so much that you are/would pay sticker to attend?
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 07, 2010, 04:05:47 PM
for the price of a sticker, I'd go to ANY school. Last one cost me a quarter and after I got it wet and rubbed it on, I had a badass tatoo for like a week.....I got on my peddlebike and rode like the badass biker I am!!!! >:(


Bigs,  I've read what you've had to say about Tier 4's, and your pride in your own school, GGU, is apparent.  I'm going to assume that you love your school so much that you are/would pay sticker to attend?
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: bigs5068 on May 07, 2010, 05:42:35 PM
I like law school I would rather have gotten into Stanford obviously.  I actually would like a lot of things, but I had 3.1 and 155 LSAT and I want to be a lawyer and I was going to make a horrendous mistake by relying on rankings and going to a tier 3 in Michigan opposed to a tier 4 in San Francisco, where I want to live and my fiance has an awesome job and I get free place to live. Plus 16,000 a year scholarship doesn't hurt either. 

So in that situation it would be MORONIC!!!!!! to have gone to a tier 3 or tier 2 in a far off place and what would the difference be between HOFSTRA or MICHIGAN STATE AND GGU really??? U.S. News IDIOTIC SYSTEM that makes no sense and is not approved by anybody says I should have gone to Michigan State, realistically None of those schools is going to have employers dropping their paints for me and I just want to warn people who are thinking about law school to not get caught up in the rankings like I was when applying particulary if you are debating between Tier 2 and tier 3.  I was going to apply to Gonzaga and there Tier 2 last year had I gone there they went to tier 3 this year what changed???? Nothing I am sure. The rankings are bogus and use common sense when applying to law school that is all.

I just want to warn law school applicants to not put that much stake in the rankings that is all. Obviously, use common sense when applying, but just know the rankings should be about 9,204 on your list of things to consider when choosing your law school.

 
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: Netopalis on May 08, 2010, 12:20:32 AM
My take: The only people who are really hurting to find jobs right now are people who are looking for jobs in biglaw.  I'm at Mercer, and I ended up with 4 summer job offers.  I have no qualms whatsoever about my job prospects.  Why?  Because I want to prosecute, and it's not one of those uber-competitive fields (DOJ aside).  The point is, you can get a job with a medium-to-small sized firm from just about anywhere.  You won't be making $160k+, but the benefit of a lesser salary is a more interesting job and more free time.  I think it's a worthwhile tradeoff.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: the white rabbit on May 08, 2010, 04:31:44 AM
My take: The only people who are really hurting to find jobs right now are people who are looking for jobs in biglaw.  I'm at Mercer, and I ended up with 4 summer job offers. 

I'd be careful about equating summer job offers with full time job offers.  Still, good job on that.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: Trivium on May 08, 2010, 04:49:13 AM
I go to a T-25 and when we have visiting professors here they are terrible compared to the quality of education you get from the actual profs. The subject matter may be the same, but that doesn't mean you learn it as well. That's one difference.

I had a visiting professor from Yale that was absolute bunnies, so that's just plain anecdotal evidence that at the very best is worthless.

Not to mention, law is not complicated, you should be perfectly capable of learning what consideration is even if your professor is a homeless guy spending half the class masturbating at his desk.

I disagree that it's anecdotal evidence. An anecdote is one story intended to evidence an entire pattern of activity. What I have just described is the entire pattern of activity. Every visiting I have had was terrible and all but one permanent prof. I have had was amazing.

Saying that the law is not complicated is sort of ignorant too. Obviously, I can (and did) figure out what consideration is on my own. However, I have a limited amount of time within which to do my studying and attempting to figure out what most of the securities act means without the guidance of a competent teacher stretches the boundaries of the amount of time I have.

I do think, however, that your experience with a visiting at Yale demonstrates a key difference between the T-14 and lower ranked schools. Profs. from my school probably visit at yours. My school gets visiting profs from T-3s.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: Netopalis on May 08, 2010, 08:59:54 AM
My take: The only people who are really hurting to find jobs right now are people who are looking for jobs in biglaw.  I'm at Mercer, and I ended up with 4 summer job offers. 

I'd be careful about equating summer job offers with full time job offers.  Still, good job on that.

Yeah, I realize that, but I also know that at least 2 of the offices hire a ton of their 2L interns, so it's not like there's no translation at all.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: the white rabbit on May 09, 2010, 07:14:36 AM
I disagree that it's anecdotal evidence. An anecdote is one story intended to evidence an entire pattern of activity. What I have just described is the entire pattern of activity. Every visiting I have had was terrible and all but one permanent prof. I have had was amazing.

It's still anecdotal in the sense that it's still just one person's perception (yours).

My take: The only people who are really hurting to find jobs right now are people who are looking for jobs in biglaw.  I'm at Mercer, and I ended up with 4 summer job offers. 

I'd be careful about equating summer job offers with full time job offers.  Still, good job on that.

Yeah, I realize that, but I also know that at least 2 of the offices hire a ton of their 2L interns, so it's not like there's no translation at all.

No, it's not.  :)
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: legalized on May 23, 2010, 07:38:39 AM
My take: The only people who are really hurting to find jobs right now are people who are looking for jobs in biglaw.  I'm at Mercer, and I ended up with 4 summer job offers. 

I'd be careful about equating summer job offers with full time job offers.  Still, good job on that.

Yeah, I realize that, but I also know that at least 2 of the offices hire a ton of their 2L interns, so it's not like there's no translation at all.

Were your offers Macon firms?  I have heard that Mercer is pretty protected from the overall crash because it has a lock on the Macon firms.

While I grow weary of seeing OP's sentiments browbeaten into everyone in every thread, I do appreciate the sentiment behind this thread, because it is easy even if you are not biased against T3 and T4 schools to end up not even able to analyze them properly because many of us first encountered any organization of the schools in the US News rankings...and they don't even bother to rank the T3 and T4.  So it's easy for a majority of ls hopefuls to see only T1 and T2 schools as options, and end up making all their choices among those.

It is good to research continuously on these schools...while getting into a top 10 school feels good psychologically (and 90% of getting through anything hard is mental), being considered tops of the entering class feels good psychologically too, and so does attending school in an area you would LOVE to live and work for the rest of your life, ESPECIALLY doing it for free! lol

So again, people, don't use up all your analytical skills on practicing for the LSAT...once that's done, really look at every ABA-accredited school (and the non-accredited in California if you like risk and don't want to keep open your options of practicing outside the state)...use the Detailed Search funtion of the ABA guide to search for any combination of criteria that fits your description or what you are looking for.

TLS has a list and reviews (by clicking on the hyperlinked names) of the T3 and T4 schools, with their 25th-75th percentile GPAs and LSATs.  You can start there if the ABA search function is a bit intimidating...then go on the schools' websites!  While I always say it's good to know the good and the bad...the OP's point is that most if not all of what's on the net about these schools are very bad.  So balance it out with a visit to the website of the schools you're interested in...read the Dean's letter, the history, their blurb about their location...click around, there are always interesting facts that may be just right (or all wrong) for you that you won't find out by listening to only one side of the story.  Do NOT ignore the bad news about a school, but have a comprehensive file of info on it.

Do your research and buyer beware.  Know your priorities in a school and choose the schools in that order of priority, not anyone else's.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: sonofapickle on May 30, 2010, 03:39:41 PM
T3 and T4 does not matter, but T4-T2-T1 does matter. Going to a T1 or T2 would be more beneficial to a person career wise.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: HardWorking on June 13, 2010, 09:10:58 AM
I go to a T-25 and when we have visiting professors here they are terrible compared to the quality of education you get from the actual profs. The subject matter may be the same, but that doesn't mean you learn it as well. That's one difference.

Exactly true.  Many Tier 4 schools don't even want to hire other Tier 4 graduates.  You should listen to people on this site about Tier 3 and Tier 4 schools.  Sure, people are having a hard time finding a job with all types of degrees but, there is a big difference between a Doctor who has an M.D. from a lower-ranked medical school and a Lawyer who graduates from a lower-ranked law school.  Doctors have much more stringent admissions policies than Lawyers have when it comes to further education.  Law schools will take people with various degrees whereas medical schools expect you to have a certain amount of math and science courses before even applying.  Let's not pretend that a tier 4 law school is anything like a lower ranked medical school.  Many tier 4 law schools are just paper mills that are out to take your money.  As far as attrition rate, you can find out how many people actually failed out. Don't waste your money.  Go get a graduate degree or a something else.  Stay far away from Tier 4 schools.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: bigs5068 on June 13, 2010, 09:15:15 AM
I go to a T-25 and when we have visiting professors here they are terrible compared to the quality of education you get from the actual profs. The subject matter may be the same, but that doesn't mean you learn it as well. That's one difference.

Exactly true.  Many Tier 4 schools don't even want to hire other Tier 4 graduates.  You should listen to people on this site about Tier 3 and Tier 4 schools.  Sure, people are having a hard time finding a job with all types of degrees but, there is a big difference between a Doctor who has an M.D. from a lower-ranked medical school and a Lawyer who graduates from a lower-ranked law school.  Doctors have much more stringent admissions policies than Lawyers have when it comes to further education.  Law schools will take people with various degrees whereas medical schools expect you to have a certain amount of math and science courses before even applying.  Let's not pretend that a tier 4 law school is anything like a lower ranked medical school.  Many tier 4 law schools are just paper mills that are out to take your money.  As far as attrition rate, you can find out how many people actually failed out. Don't waste your money.  Go get a graduate degree or a something else.  Stay far away from Tier 4 schools.

Do you go to law school yet? From what you have written it seems that you have no idea what you are talking about. I know many tier 4 graduates and people from only California Bar Approved schools who are doing quite well for themselves. The reality is at the end of the day law school is mostly what YOU make of it not the name of your school. 
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: the white rabbit on June 13, 2010, 09:23:18 AM
I go to a T-25 and when we have visiting professors here they are terrible compared to the quality of education you get from the actual profs. The subject matter may be the same, but that doesn't mean you learn it as well. That's one difference.

Exactly true.  Many Tier 4 schools don't even want to hire other Tier 4 graduates.  You should listen to people on this site about Tier 3 and Tier 4 schools.  Sure, people are having a hard time finding a job with all types of degrees but, there is a big difference between a Doctor who has an M.D. from a lower-ranked medical school and a Lawyer who graduates from a lower-ranked law school.  Doctors have much more stringent admissions policies than Lawyers have when it comes to further education.  Law schools will take people with various degrees whereas medical schools expect you to have a certain amount of math and science courses before even applying.  Let's not pretend that a tier 4 law school is anything like a lower ranked medical school.  Many tier 4 law schools are just paper mills that are out to take your money.  As far as attrition rate, you can find out how many people actually failed out. Don't waste your money.  Go get a graduate degree or a something else.  Stay far away from Tier 4 schools.

Do you go to law school yet? From what you have written it seems that you have no idea what you are talking about. I know many tier 4 graduates and people from only California Bar Approved schools who are doing quite well for themselves. The reality is at the end of the day law school is mostly what YOU make of it not the name of your school.

Actually, it's mostly the name of your school, but what you make of it also counts for something sometimes.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: bigs5068 on June 13, 2010, 10:07:59 AM
It is the name of your school for some places I am sure, but in California at least since it is such a massive state if you pass the bar here there are opportunities for you somewhere. 
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: Cicero on June 13, 2010, 10:58:17 AM
I go to a T-25 and when we have visiting professors here they are terrible compared to the quality of education you get from the actual profs. The subject matter may be the same, but that doesn't mean you learn it as well. That's one difference.

Exactly true.  Many Tier 4 schools don't even want to hire other Tier 4 graduates.  You should listen to people on this site about Tier 3 and Tier 4 schools.  Sure, people are having a hard time finding a job with all types of degrees but, there is a big difference between a Doctor who has an M.D. from a lower-ranked medical school and a Lawyer who graduates from a lower-ranked law school.  Doctors have much more stringent admissions policies than Lawyers have when it comes to further education.  Law schools will take people with various degrees whereas medical schools expect you to have a certain amount of math and science courses before even applying.  Let's not pretend that a tier 4 law school is anything like a lower ranked medical school.  Many tier 4 law schools are just paper mills that are out to take your money.  As far as attrition rate, you can find out how many people actually failed out. Don't waste your money.  Go get a graduate degree or a something else.  Stay far away from Tier 4 schools.


You know, there is a big difference between what doctors and lawyers do. Of course doctors need a much more specific undergraduate focus before going to med school. I'm not sure what specific focus you believe you need to become a lawyer, and I find your comment about that slightly offensive as someone who doesn't have the so called "traditional background" for becoming a lawyer. My undergraduate degree in anthropology in no way hindered my ability to comprehend the law and to analyze. Furthermore, I did take 1 class during my time as an undergraduate with the so-called traditional background students. They all kept talking about how it was the hardest class and teacher in their degree program, but it was really easy compared to my classes. Based on my experience, the undergraduate degree itself doesn't matter. What matters is the student's ability to understand the law and apply it.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: bigs5068 on June 13, 2010, 12:20:42 PM
The undergardaute degree is a prequiste to go to law school if you go to JoeBlow state and score a 180 on the LSAT you will get into a better school than someone who goes to UCLA undergrad and gets a 150 performance matters not the same of your school.

To that point in my study group there are 6 people I went to Chico State, another guy went to some 7th Adventist college in Tennessee, 2 went to Berkley, 2 went to Notre Dame. At the end of the day guess which 2 finished on the Dean's list me and the guy from Tennessee, the two guys from Berkley and Notre Dame did fine and in the middle of the curve. Shockingly they did not write the name of their school on their exam or if they did it give them much again the performance of me and the guy from Tennesee was better than those that went to higher ranked schools.

At my internship I have already gone to numerous court hearings and do you know what law school everybody in the courtroom went to? Can you guess I have no idea, shockingly when getting witness testimony from a  16 year rape victim people don't care what the ranking of the judge's, D.A.'s, or defense attorney law school was. It was real serious matter and the D.A. did not say I went to U.S. News World Report 29th best school and went to a tier 2 school so she was definelty raped. Nope shockingly it did not come up once it is some real serious sh*t. So go to law school if you want to be a lawyer bottom line.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: HardWorking on June 13, 2010, 01:07:28 PM
I go to a T-25 and when we have visiting professors here they are terrible compared to the quality of education you get from the actual profs. The subject matter may be the same, but that doesn't mean you learn it as well. That's one difference.

Exactly true.  Many Tier 4 schools don't even want to hire other Tier 4 graduates.  You should listen to people on this site about Tier 3 and Tier 4 schools.  Sure, people are having a hard time finding a job with all types of degrees but, there is a big difference between a Doctor who has an M.D. from a lower-ranked medical school and a Lawyer who graduates from a lower-ranked law school.  Doctors have much more stringent admissions policies than Lawyers have when it comes to further education.  Law schools will take people with various degrees whereas medical schools expect you to have a certain amount of math and science courses before even applying.  Let's not pretend that a tier 4 law school is anything like a lower ranked medical school.  Many tier 4 law schools are just paper mills that are out to take your money.  As far as attrition rate, you can find out how many people actually failed out. Don't waste your money.  Go get a graduate degree or a something else.  Stay far away from Tier 4 schools.

Do you go to law school yet? From what you have written it seems that you have no idea what you are talking about. I know many tier 4 graduates and people from only California Bar Approved schools who are doing quite well for themselves. The reality is at the end of the day law school is mostly what YOU make of it not the name of your school.

Actually, it's mostly the name of your school, but what you make of it also counts for something sometimes.

You are right about that.  Yes, it matters what you make of law school but, at the end of the day you are lying to yourself if you think for one second that the name of your school doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: the white rabbit on June 13, 2010, 01:15:22 PM
You know, there is a big difference between what doctors and lawyers do. Of course doctors need a much more specific undergraduate focus before going to med school. I'm not sure what specific focus you believe you need to become a lawyer, and I find your comment about that slightly offensive as someone who doesn't have the so called "traditional background" for becoming a lawyer. My undergraduate degree in anthropology in no way hindered my ability to comprehend the law and to analyze. Furthermore, I did take 1 class during my time as an undergraduate with the so-called traditional background students. They all kept talking about how it was the hardest class and teacher in their degree program, but it was really easy compared to my classes. Based on my experience, the undergraduate degree itself doesn't matter. What matters is the student's ability to understand the law and apply it.

I don't know that there is a "traditional background" for becoming a lawyer.  And I think the point about doctors is that there's a screening process during undergrad in the form of pre-med requirements.  There's nothing comparable for lawyers.  (This point has nothing to do with whether or not undergraduate education is in any way useful for the practice of law.)
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: Cicero on June 13, 2010, 02:19:44 PM
For med school and veterinary school you generally have to have a biochem, chem, or biology degree to apply for the program (and I know for vet you generally need more of the biochem type degree). The med people take the MCAT, like we take the LSAT.  It seems like the "traditional background" degree is political science or a more general pre-law designation, such as pre-law/history, which are offered at most schools. Where I go to LS, most of the people seem to have polysci-like degrees.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: bigs5068 on June 13, 2010, 04:27:39 PM
Yes the name of your school matters, but if you are good at something people will notice. Steve Nash went to Santa Clara University, but he has won two MVP awards because he is good at basketball. Santa Clara is not a basketball school at ALL!, but he is good so nobody cares that he went to Santa Clara. There are very good lawyers then to Cooley, California Western, GGU etc if you win someone their case they will think your a good lawyer. If you went to Harvard and you lose them a million dollars they are not going to think your a good lawyer. Your performance matters the most, but yes it certainly helps to go to Stanford or Harvard.  If you have a choice of paying full price at Santa Clara or half the price at GGU who really cares? The 88th best school or the 112th? Your not impressing anybody with those numbers. That is why ranking outside of the top 25 or so is pretty retarded.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: the white rabbit on June 13, 2010, 06:13:09 PM
For med school and veterinary school you generally have to have a biochem, chem, or biology degree to apply for the program (and I know for vet you generally need more of the biochem type degree). The med people take the MCAT, like we take the LSAT.  It seems like the "traditional background" degree is political science or a more general pre-law designation, such as pre-law/history, which are offered at most schools. Where I go to LS, most of the people seem to have polysci-like degrees.

I think that's probably the most common one, but it just runs such a wide range.  Maybe you're right, maybe polysci is the traditional background.  I don't know, I like to think we're a more diverse lot than that.  :D  :(
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: nealric on June 17, 2010, 03:30:13 PM
Quote
Yes the name of your school matters, but if you are good at something people will notice. Steve Nash went to Santa Clara University, but he has won two MVP awards because he is good at basketball. Santa Clara is not a basketball school at ALL!

Here is why law school is not like basketball:

Basketball is basketball, you are playing the same basic court with the same basic rules whether you are playing on a high-school freshman team or in the NBA finals. Although Kobe Bryant probably wouldn't get much of a chance to shine if he only played pick-up at the park, it would be exceedingly obvious from watching him play that he was head-and-shoulders above everyone he played against.

By contrast, the law is not really a single discipline, but a family of disciplines. For example, DUI defense and tax planning have very little common with each other. They are as different as basketball and baseball in terms of the skills required to be successful.

The problem with low ranked schools is that certain disciplines tend to be foreclosed (rightly or wrongly) to their graduates because they are never even given an opportunity to play the game. If you want to do tax planning for international mergers and acquisitions, but the only job you can find straight out of school is DUI defense, no matter what amazing skills you may demonstrate in DUI defense, nobody is going to even give you a chance to demonstrate yourself in the tax field. You can't dominate a game you aren't allowed to play.

Of course you can be successful from anywhere or from any background- I'm not contesting that- I just think your analogy is flawed. There are ways to overcome the limitation described above by either graduating at the very top of the class (in which case you will be given the chance to play), or by slowly working your way up through different disciplines while demonstrating ability (in which you are slowly allowed onto the court).
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: bigs5068 on June 20, 2010, 11:42:51 AM
I will have to disagree with that a graduate from Cooley can standout the same way Kobe would in a pickup game. If someone from Cooley got a Witkin award in every single law school class they took, wrote articles in law reviews that were published in court opinions, won mock trial competitions across the country, and came to California and was allowed to argue motions in court while they were in law school (I don't if other states let you do that) and won every single motion they argued that would stand out the same way Kobe in a pickup game would.

So that exceptional Cooley student  would probably be hired over someone who finished at the bottom 25% of their class at Georgetown and did not have one internship while in law school.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: the white rabbit on June 20, 2010, 11:55:01 AM
I will have to disagree with that a graduate from Cooley can standout the same way Kobe would in a pickup game. If someone from Cooley got a Witkin award in every single law school class they took, wrote articles in law reviews that were published in court opinions, won mock trial competitions across the country, and came to California and was allowed to argue motions in court while they were in law school (I don't if other states let you do that) and won every single motion they argued that would stand out the same way Kobe in a pickup game would.

So that exceptional Cooley student  would probably be hired over someone who finished at the bottom 25% of their class at Georgetown and did not have one internship while in law school.

Okay but aside from that rare exception, what nealric says is true?
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: bigs5068 on June 20, 2010, 12:13:27 PM
Yes I am not denying anything people are saying about Tier 4's being less than ideal. It will be harder to make it and you may never get a shot to do what you really want coming from Cooley or another tier 4. All I am trying is that if you want to be a lawyer then go to law school because you have a 0 percent chance of being a lawyer unless you go to law school. If you go to Cooley or GGU expecting 200K at graduation or if you expect that any from any law school for that matter you are going to be disappointed.

I just remember reading things about GGU and other schools that they have to kick out 25% of the class and nobody even looks at your resume for internships and that is just not true. I am just trying to apply common sense in that yes Harvard is better than Cooley we all know that I knew that when I was 5. However, if you go to law school you learn to become a lawyer, but there is a pecking order. Tier 4's are on the bottom of it, but you still are a lawyer when graduate and pass teh bar and hopefully becoming a lawyer was your goal when you started law school. Going to a tier 3 or 4 and working hard will allow to be a lawyer maybe you will stuck doing DUI defense who knows. You are still working as a lawyer and the vibe that people give off is that you can't even do DUI defense from a tier 4 and that is just not true.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: the white rabbit on June 20, 2010, 12:58:54 PM
All I am trying is that if you want to be a lawyer then go to law school because you have a 0 percent chance of being a lawyer unless you go to law school.

Why don't you add a caveat about the financial component?  Doesn't the fact that you can't expect to make more than a certain income coming out of some schools limit the amount of money that one should be willing to pay for those schools?
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 20, 2010, 03:22:33 PM
myth. Starting salary expectations only.

All I am trying is that if you want to be a lawyer then go to law school because you have a 0 percent chance of being a lawyer unless you go to law school.

Why don't you add a caveat about the financial component?  Doesn't the fact that you can't expect to make more than a certain income coming out of some schools limit the amount of money that one should be willing to pay for those schools?
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: bigs5068 on June 20, 2010, 04:40:08 PM
 If you want to do tax planning for international mergers and acquisitions, but the only job you can find straight out of school is DUI defense, no matter what amazing skills you may demonstrate in DUI defense, nobody is going to even give you a chance to demonstrate yourself in the tax field. You can't dominate a game you aren't allowed to play.

This is another thing that goes directly point that if you are going to Georgetown etc you should not be giving advice on tier 4's. Do you really think I thought I would be doing international merges & acquisitions when I walked of the stage of GGU? No you would probably expect that at Georgetown, but many people in tier 4's will be more than happy to do DUI defense. That is my point the door is kind of closed to tier 4's to do international mergers & acquisitions etc. Of course a few people sneak in and that is the way it is. People at tier 4's have way different expectations than those at Georgetown.

I will compare to basketball again not everybody in the NBA is Kobe Bryant he would be offended if a team offered him a million dollars a year. He would be literally pissed off and angry, but a guy like Luke Walton will be very happy with it. Not everybody can be a star player in fact the majority of people are not and Kobe Bryant should not give Luke Walton advice on how to negotiate his deal because they are on two very different levels. Just like a Georgetown Grad and a Cooley Grad are. What is fine for a Cooley Grad might be unimaginable to a Georgetown Grad just like making only a million dollars for putting a ball in a basket would be appalling to Kobe Bryant, but most people would be pretty damn happy with it.

Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 20, 2010, 05:09:23 PM
so they're a bunch of crybabies who need to get over themselves? My point exactly on previous posts.

"I can't find a job"  "here is a job"  "I'd rather be on welfare...... ???"
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: nealric on June 21, 2010, 03:13:37 PM
Quote
This is another thing that goes directly point that if you are going to Georgetown etc you should not be giving advice on tier 4's. Do you really think I thought I would be doing international merges & acquisitions when I walked of the stage of GGU? No you would probably expect that at Georgetown, but many people in tier 4's will be more than happy to do DUI defense. That is my point the door is kind of closed to tier 4's to do international mergers & acquisitions etc. Of course a few people sneak in and that is the way it is. People at tier 4's have way different expectations than those at Georgetown. 

People have a variety of expectations. Over the years I've been involved with law school discussion boards, I've seen literally hundreds of posts asking about the international law program at "Insert T3/T4 school." I've seen dozens of "Will by finance background get me into 'corporate law' if I go to T3/T4 school?" I've talked to several prospective law students in real life who are planning on T3/T4 schools and think they are going to do "corporate law" and make a lot of money. This is not at all unexpected; plenty of T3/T4 schools list "median" starting salaries in excess of $100k on their recruiting brochures.

I've always told people that if they've done the math of realistic probabilities and realistic debt load, and are OK with the result, and they really want to go to law school, then they should go for it. If someone happy doing DUI defense for 40k a year, more power to them. Someone's got to do it. But I feel like a lot of people don't understand what doors they may be closing by settling. A lot of people who could go to higher-ranked schools end up at lower ranked ones because they refuse to properly prepare to study for the LSAT. One thing I always tell people is that there is a lot to be said for the "can do" attitude expressed by many people considering T3/T4 schools. However, for the vast majority of people, the LSAT is truly the path of least resistance for setting themselves up for the opportunities they desire. 

My observation of a lot of the strife that happens on this and many other law school discussion boards is the conflation of ex-ante advice, and ex-post derision of already made choices. I usually advise people to avoid T4 schools before they have made their decision. However, I would never denigrate someone who is currently attending a T4 school. Some of the most impressive people I have met through various legal internships were people who absolutely dominated at their T3/T4 schools. Nevertheless, people who attend T3/T4 school sometimes interpret the ex-ante advice as a personal attack on them- it really isn't. While some people do get off on denigrating others for their school choice, I truly believe that they are a small minority of posters.
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: bigs5068 on June 21, 2010, 04:15:17 PM
Well it seems we have finally come to an agreement. If someone is going into a tier 4 expecting to get hired as an associate at Big Law firm right after graduation they will be disappointed. Maybe if they are in the top 1 or 2% of the class they have a shot, but otherwise it is probably not going to happen. GGU gave me a list of people with salaries and what they were and I think 5 people made 150K more at graduation so that was probably the top 1 or 2% of the class. If you finish that high at any school you will have some opportunities. However, there is a 98 to 99% chance you won't be in the top 1 or 2 percent wherever you go.

I will be quite happy if I can graduate and make 50-60K at graduation and could deal with making 35-45K. Maybe I won't get a job at all and I might not even pass the bar that is a possible.  However, when people say things like tier 4's are are profit-generating companies that care only about money and are terrible because of that all I can say is so does every school. Or the professors only care about money and to that all I can say is every single law school is a business and they care about getting paid first & foremost. If the professors at Georgetown stop getting paid they are not showing up same with GGU. If you refuse to pay your tuition at Georgetown they will not let you take classes same thing here and at Cooley. Law schools are business and their brochures contain puffery. At every school they exaggerate, but if you want to be a lawyer you should be able to realize when there is a little bit of B.S. going on. GGU gives me a median salary as do all schools, which is again b.s. I don't know they give the median instead of the MEAN (average salary of everybody) I mean I guess the answer is obvious the median looks better, but that is a whole other issue.

That was an irrelevant tangent and I am on a I-phone so I don't feel like revising, but when I started this post all I was trying to say is that GGU, Touro, etc these schools are ABA approved law schools and they will teach you the law.  They will not kick out 25% of the class and your resume will not look worse by having graduated law school and passed the bar. However, you have to use common sense and realize law schools are not equal and there is about a 99% chance that a Harvard/Yale Grad is going to make more money than a Cooley Grad and get first dibs on top jobs.  However, you can and probably will get something if you go to a tier 4. Odds are you won't be working on 500 million dollar mergers, but you can find a job.

So the key thing I have been trying to say is if you want to be a lawyer go to law school and any ABA school can help you achieve that goal. Being a lawyer is generally not as glamorous as the media portrays either and you will probably not get rich. Most lawyers don't have private jets and monstrous offices. The majority of them are paying off the ridiculous amount of money  it costs to go to law school. Most lawyers work in mid, to small firms and it will take years for most people to get away from the debt.

Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 21, 2010, 07:45:14 PM
T4 looks better on an application. T1's look like daddy tit sucking babies who need a diaper change every 10 minutes. Lots of work, little return, and cry for money they dont deserve. :'(
Title: Re: Do not listen to what people say about T-3 and T-4 schools on this site
Post by: the white rabbit on June 21, 2010, 09:29:44 PM
T4 looks better on an application. T1's look like daddy tit sucking babies who need a diaper change every 10 minutes. Lots of work, little return, and cry for money they dont deserve. :'(

LOL