Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses => Topic started by: roblaw on January 21, 2010, 03:37:24 PM

Title: St. Mary's School of Law (Unlocked)
Post by: roblaw on January 21, 2010, 03:37:24 PM
Our previous thread on St. Mary's School of Law was locked because I'm a "shill."  I was accused of being a student at St. Mary's Law.  Well, yes I am, and I said that in my post.  I think students considering St. Mary's should have the ability to hear from someone who actually attends the school, as opposed to an anonymous poster who has yet to even apply to law school.

Nevertheless, you might have heard about the two St. Mary's law students who went to Haiti on a rescue mission.  Here's the CNN interview, and another video for good measure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkEyhnO9jJM&feature=youtube_gdata

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsqrJ3fb3TQ

I encourage any interested students to send me a message, or to come and visit the school.  I don't mind if you ignore everything I have to say.  Just get your facts from someone who has actual knowledge.
Title: Re: St. Mary's School of Law (Unlocked)
Post by: john4040 on January 21, 2010, 07:26:54 PM
Anonymous poster who has yet to even apply to law school?  I'm a federal clerk...  I will post from work, let a mod check my IP address, and have them confirm for you if you wish.
Title: Re: St. Mary's School of Law (Unlocked)
Post by: john4040 on January 22, 2010, 06:42:15 AM
Post.

Can a mod confirm that my IP is 208.27.203.x? 

See http://www.robtex.com/cnet/208.27.203.html
Title: Re: St. Mary's School of Law (Unlocked)
Post by: nealric on January 24, 2010, 11:39:51 AM
Quote
Can a mod confirm that my IP is 208.27.203.x?   

That's not your IP- but I'm not sure why you feel the need to proove your status.

Quote
Our previous thread on St. Mary's School of Law was locked because I'm a "shill."  I was accused of being a student at St. Mary's Law.  Well, yes I am, and I said that in my post.  I think students considering St. Mary's should have the ability to hear from someone who actually attends the school, as opposed to an anonymous poster who has yet to even apply to law school.

It was mostly locked because the thread was just devolving into a flamewar about the school. This thread will remain open until it gets to that point.
Title: Re: St. Mary's School of Law (Unlocked)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on January 24, 2010, 03:01:54 PM
That dosn't really prove anything. I've known a lot of court clerks with less than a full undergrad degree. Better point why waste our tax dollars doing it at work? Are you that bored to go online and BS on the clock with lawstudents? What's your boss think of that? Isn't bragging about your IP address a way of snitching on yourself to get caught?


Anonymous poster who has yet to even apply to law school?  I'm a federal clerk...  I will post from work, let a mod check my IP address, and have them confirm for you if you wish.
Title: Re: St. Mary's School of Law (Unlocked)
Post by: nealric on January 24, 2010, 05:55:10 PM
Quote
I've known a lot of court clerks with less than a full undergrad degree.

There is a HUGE difference between a "court clerk" and a law school graduate who is clerking for a judge. The former does clerical work, the latter actually writes opinions.
Title: Re: St. Mary's School of Law (Unlocked)
Post by: john4040 on January 25, 2010, 10:27:17 AM
That dosn't really prove anything. I've known a lot of court clerks with less than a full undergrad degree. Better point why waste our tax dollars doing it at work? Are you that bored to go online and BS on the clock with lawstudents? What's your boss think of that? Isn't bragging about your IP address a way of snitching on yourself to get caught?

(1)  You wrongly assume that I was on the clock while posting.
(2)  I am trying to give prospective students advice based upon my experience - not trying to BS anyone.
(3)  I'm a federal judicial law clerk - i.e., an elbow clerk for a judge.  I am not a clerk of court.
Title: Re: St. Mary's School of Law (Unlocked)
Post by: john4040 on January 25, 2010, 10:39:36 AM
Quote
Can a mod confirm that my IP is 208.27.203.x?  

That's not your IP- but I'm not sure why you feel the need to proove your status.

Well, I took a screen shot just to confirm that my IP address is, in fact, 208.27.203.x.  I deleted the last string of digits because I do not wish to identify my circuit.  I deleted the entire IP from my second post because it is my home IP.

I felt the need to prove my status because apparently roblaw believes I'm "an anonymous poster who has yet to even apply to law school."

(http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/2189/26008786.png)
Right click, view image to see larger image.
Title: Re: St. Mary's School of Law (Unlocked)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on January 25, 2010, 10:44:55 AM
thanks for filling me on the difference(and not wasting tax dollars on the clock too)

Does your position require a JD?
Title: Re: St. Mary's School of Law (Unlocked)
Post by: john4040 on January 25, 2010, 10:47:06 AM
thanks for filling me on the difference(and not wasting tax dollars on the clock too)

Does your position require a JD?

No problemo.  Yes, it does require a JD.  Wikipedia provides a decent write-up here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_clerk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_clerk)
Title: Re: St. Mary's School of Law (Unlocked)
Post by: nealric on January 25, 2010, 05:20:52 PM
Quote
thanks for filling me on the difference(and not wasting tax dollars on the clock too)

Does your position require a JD? 

I'm really surprised that a law student doesn't know what a federal clerk does. Not only does it require a JD, but it requires pretty sterling academic credentials. It's generally harder to get a federal clerkship than biglaw.
Title: Re: St. Mary's School of Law (Unlocked)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on January 25, 2010, 05:32:13 PM
Like you've said before, 1L. Don't worry I'm not self obessed enough to paste my IP address in hopes of proving it either.
Title: Re: St. Mary's School of Law (Unlocked)
Post by: roblaw on January 26, 2010, 10:05:33 PM
Look, I know my tone was over the top at times, but my facts were accurate.  My OP was intended to give a student's perspective of St. Mary's.  We don't have a marketing department like many schools, so I've decided that it's up to students to speak up about their experience.

John4040, I apologize for reading you as a pre-law student.  Nevertheless, I often do see a school getting flamed by young posters who have no actual knowledge.  I thought I'd just contribute my part.

My overall point still stands.  St. Mary's was very well respected in the past, and I am thankful to be a part of the gradual, continuing process of rebuilding its reputation.  It's exciting to see the direction everything is going.  I particularly emphasize that we've had Supreme Court Justices teach summer classes to St. Mary's students abroad for the last five years at our Innsbruck Institute.  Additionally, I think everyone is thrilled that we now have a China program, at which students will learn how to help businesses navigate the Chinese legal system.

St. Mary's definitely has its issues.  And yes, if you don't perform well, you'll have difficulty getting a good job.  But at the end of the day, I'm glad that I found myself here, and I'm excited that the class below me is even more impressive than my own.
Title: Re: St. Mary's School of Law (Unlocked)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on January 26, 2010, 10:08:28 PM
You have school pride(and it sounds like its well deserved) Hooah! :)
Title: Re: St. Mary's School of Law (Unlocked)
Post by: john4040 on January 27, 2010, 10:47:26 AM
Look, I know my tone was over the top at times, but my facts were accurate.  My OP was intended to give a student's perspective of St. Mary's.  We don't have a marketing department like many schools, so I've decided that it's up to students to speak up about their experience.

John4040, I apologize for reading you as a pre-law student.  Nevertheless, I often do see a school getting flamed by young posters who have no actual knowledge.  I thought I'd just contribute my part.

My overall point still stands.  St. Mary's was very well respected in the past, and I am thankful to be a part of the gradual, continuing process of rebuilding its reputation.  It's exciting to see the direction everything is going.  I particularly emphasize that we've had Supreme Court Justices teach summer classes to St. Mary's students abroad for the last five years at our Innsbruck Institute.  Additionally, I think everyone is thrilled that we now have a China program, at which students will learn how to help businesses navigate the Chinese legal system.

St. Mary's definitely has its issues.  And yes, if you don't perform well, you'll have difficulty getting a good job.  But at the end of the day, I'm glad that I found myself here, and I'm excited that the class below me is even more impressive than my own.

I commend you for your school pride - I do not share your same enthusiasm for my school.  Nevertheless, my position still stands:  these opportunities that you have cited (summer program abroad taught by SCOTUS Justices, opportunity for clerkship / BIGLAW positions, etc.) are not particularly unique to your school and they do not justify taking on significant debt (~$90K tuition + living expenses).

Many schools offer summer abroad programs which typically feature elite professors, attorneys, or even SCOTUS Justices. Furthermore, clerkships and BIGLAW positions are typically available to top students at T3s and T4s.  This is nothing new.  Nor is the concept of alumni from a regional school maintaining a close-knit relationship with current students of that same school an anomaly.  Add to that the fact that state T1s and T2s are cheaper than St. Mary's, and you really have problems with your argument.

Once again, I understand your school pride, but nevertheless fail to see why these opportunities distinguish St. Mary's from any other law school.
Title: Re: St. Mary's School of Law (Unlocked)
Post by: hilikus on January 27, 2010, 04:37:45 PM
Here's some insight from a 1L at St. Mary's right now.

1.  I'm in section A, most of the professors are great, well educated, and very well respected
2.  The career services department which handles internships is ABYSMAL!  They pretty much tell 1L's an internship isn't going to happen which is such BS because it doesn't take much foot-work to find one.  And on-campus interviews for 1L's are few and far between. 
3.  The curve was moved up this year from a C+ to a B- for first years.
4.  I think I am getting a good education but it feels, at times, like the administration is less than professional in certain aspects of how the school is run. 

I knew the rep before going and I have to say it may been deserved at one time but I think it is getting better.

And one important note -- if you want to live and work in San Antonio you could do a lot worse than St. Mary's.
Title: Re: St. Mary's School of Law (Unlocked)
Post by: roblaw on January 27, 2010, 07:24:49 PM
John4040,

Actually, no, I don't think most T3 or T4 schools have what St. Mary's has to offer.  Show me the "many" schools at which students are taught by Supreme Court Justices.

Secondly, most people aren't left with the option or privilege of attending a great T1 or T2 state school.  That's exactly why I came to St. Mary's.

Finally, the debt is worth it.  Why?  Because I say so.  I'm taking on that debt, as are plenty of other people in order to enjoy what St. Mary's has to offer.  And on another note, I came here because I want to practice law, not because I decided that I wanted to be miserable for three years in order to have a better income.  The debt is worth it to me so that I can practice law.

I'm sorry that you don't know or appreciate St. Mary's.  I'm sorry that you had a bad experience at your school.  But some of us are proud of what we're involved with, so don't try to bring us down with you.
Title: Re: St. Mary's School of Law (Unlocked)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on January 27, 2010, 07:56:24 PM
Thats a good point about judges, my school is a lower teir and has a state supreme court judge as an instructor as well as instructors who serve on the state bar, state appeals court, and other important areas. Clearly they know their stuff.
Title: Re: St. Mary's School of Law (Unlocked)
Post by: john4040 on January 27, 2010, 08:11:56 PM
Actually, no, I don't think most T3 or T4 schools have what St. Mary's has to offer.  Show me the "many" schools at which students are taught by Supreme Court Justices.

You just don't get it, do you?  These summer abroad programs are open to all U.S. law schools (basically any student who wants to and can pay tuition).  The fact that a school sponsors a particular program does not mean that students from other schools are prohibited from attending -- these same opportunities are available to non-St. Mary's students.

Examples:
Tulane Law School is pleased to announce that Associate Justice Stephen Breyer of the US Supreme Court will teach a course in the Tulane Law summer program in Cambridge, England. "Over 4,000 law students from approximately 140 U.S. law schools have attended our programs"  (Program is open to all law schools)

St. Mary’s program in Innsbruck - No SCOTUS Justice is attending this year... but they have in the past. (Instead, "Judge András Sajó of Europe’s highest court, the European Court of Human Rights... will join the faculty of the 2010 Institute on World Legal Problems as Distinguished Visiting Jurist.")  Nevertheless, the website says that "students from over 140 law schools have attended the program."  (Program is open to all law schools)

Pacific McGeorge -  For the twenty-first consecutive year, Anthony M. Kennedy, Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States, will co-teach a course on Fundamental Rights in Europe and the United States during the 2010 summer program in Salzburg.  All law school students in good standing as well as law graduates are allowed to attend. (http://www.mcgeorge.edu/documents/publications/Salzburg_Program_r2.pdf)  (Program is open to all law schools)

Secondly, most people aren't left with the option or privilege of attending a great T1 or T2 state school.  That's exactly why I came to St. Mary's.

Okay, I understand that you couldn't get into a higher ranked school... but just because you can't get into a school doesn't mean that you should go to any school that will take you.

Finally, the debt is worth it.  Why?  Because I say so.  I'm taking on that debt, as are plenty of other people in order to enjoy what St. Mary's has to offer.  And on another note, I came here because I want to practice law, not because I decided that I wanted to be miserable for three years in order to have a better income.  The debt is worth it to me so that I can practice law.

First, get a legal job.  If you do manage to get a legal job, I want you to come back after working for a few years and tell me how those monthly debt payments are working out for you.

You think three years of law school is miserable... imagine a life of working just to make ends meet - a life where you can never break free of your debt.  Once you find that you can't comfortably retire, then ask yourself whether attending St. Mary's was worth it.

I'm sorry that you don't know or appreciate St. Mary's.  I'm sorry that you had a bad experience at your school.  But some of us are proud of what we're involved with, so don't try to bring us down with you.

Sorry I injected reality into this thread.  If that brings you down, so be it.
Title: Re: St. Mary's School of Law (Unlocked)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on January 27, 2010, 09:06:27 PM
I say if his school really makes lousy lawyers then you should thanks him for attending it, making your schools grads look good by comparison and be able to thus charge higher rates to clients.  ;D 

As for getting in though, hell yeah he's better off at that school(or any for that matter) than none at all. What's worse mabey stuggling to pay the bills as a lawyer or for sure going into debt working in some broke factory that will be overseas in a few years anyways leaving you with no pension and no skills?  :-\
Title: Re: St. Mary's School of Law (Unlocked)
Post by: john4040 on January 28, 2010, 05:35:31 AM
I say if his school really makes lousy lawyers then you should thanks him for attending it, making your schools grads look good by comparison and be able to thus charge higher rates to clients.  ;D 

As for getting in though, hell yeah he's better off at that school(or any for that matter) than none at all. What's worse mabey stuggling to pay the bills as a lawyer or for sure going into debt working in some broke factory that will be overseas in a few years anyways leaving you with no pension and no skills?  :-\

Mr. studyingdude, what you have written is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone viewing this thread is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Title: Re: St. Mary's School of Law (Unlocked)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on January 28, 2010, 10:12:00 AM
how is it hard to understand? 1) If they authenticly make "bad" lawyers then by comparison you'd look good

2) He's better off making money as a lawyer then not




I say if his school really makes lousy lawyers then you should thanks him for attending it, making your schools grads look good by comparison and be able to thus charge higher rates to clients.  ;D 

As for getting in though, hell yeah he's better off at that school(or any for that matter) than none at all. What's worse mabey stuggling to pay the bills as a lawyer or for sure going into debt working in some broke factory that will be overseas in a few years anyways leaving you with no pension and no skills?  :-\

Mr. studyingdude, what you have written is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone viewing this thread is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Title: Re: St. Mary's School of Law (Unlocked)
Post by: john4040 on January 28, 2010, 10:51:50 AM
how is it hard to understand? 1) If they authenticly make "bad" lawyers then by comparison you'd look good

2) He's better off making money as a lawyer then not

1.  This is exactly what is wrong with the legal profession today.  There are way too many lawyers out there giving good, intelligent lawyers a bad name.  Like the medical profession, the legal profession should strive to provide a higher quality of legal services rather than a higher quantity.  Many variations of this same argument have been hashed out millions of times over - I'm not going to re-hash it here.

2.  "or for sure going into debt working in some broke factory"

How did this hypothetical factory worker get into debt in the first place?  Most factory workers do not have a college education and therefore have no debt when beginning their jobs.  If the factory worker has no debt, then at least he's only paying his rent + utilities.  On the other hand, consider an attorney who has significant debt from both college and law school.  The attorney is only making enough to pay off his rent, his utilities, and the interest on his loan.  At the end of the day, sure the attorney has made more money, but he still owes the principal on his loan and is no better off than the factory worker.


Sometimes you just have to think with your head.  I don't think you really comprehend what it's like to pay 8% interest on $120K student loans while working a $30-40K job, paying rent, taxes, and utils.
Title: Re: St. Mary's School of Law (Unlocked)
Post by: cooleylawstudent on January 28, 2010, 04:52:22 PM
Are you seriously asking how factory workers go into debt? Do you really think that you have to go to college to go into debt? If you make low money then just being alive puts you into debt and for the average american even a factory job is a dream they can't achieve(thanks to them closing and moving overseas) Johny BurgerKing and his janitor girlfriend will go into creditcard and other debt just trying to stay alive. Thats how.


how is it hard to understand? 1) If they authenticly make "bad" lawyers then by comparison you'd look good

2) He's better off making money as a lawyer then not

1.  This is exactly what is wrong with the legal profession today.  There are way too many lawyers out there giving good, intelligent lawyers a bad name.  Like the medical profession, the legal profession should strive to provide a higher quality of legal services rather than a higher quantity.  Many variations of this same argument have been hashed out millions of times over - I'm not going to re-hash it here.

2.  "or for sure going into debt working in some broke factory"

How did this hypothetical factory worker get into debt in the first place?  Most factory workers do not have a college education and therefore have no debt when beginning their jobs.  If the factory worker has no debt, then at least he's only paying his rent + utilities.  On the other hand, consider an attorney who has significant debt from both college and law school.  The attorney is only making enough to pay off his rent, his utilities, and the interest on his loan.  At the end of the day, sure the attorney has made more money, but he still owes the principal on his loan and is no better off than the factory worker.


Sometimes you just have to think with your head.  I don't think you really comprehend what it's like to pay 8% interest on $120K student loans while working a $30-40K job, paying rent, taxes, and utils.