Law School Discussion

Law Students => Transferring => Topic started by: jdstandsforjokedegree on September 17, 2009, 07:28:14 PM

Title: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: jdstandsforjokedegree on September 17, 2009, 07:28:14 PM
didn't do so well during 1L-can I drop out and retake the lsat to try to get into a better school?  will the 1L grades haunt me?
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: elle-y on September 17, 2009, 09:06:46 PM
you can't retake the LSAT after you have 1L grades - you have to apply to other schools as a transfer per ABA rules.

if you haven't finished your first semester, you still have that option to drop out and start all over, however. there are some rules around that that I'm a little confused on (one school told me you had to wait 3 years or you WOULD have to apply as a transfer).

consider talking to your advisor about your options.

Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: Ninja1 on September 18, 2009, 10:12:11 AM
You're probably hosed.

How bad did you do and where do you go? "Bad" grades are, in large part, relative to these two questions.
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: jdstandsforjokedegree on September 18, 2009, 06:56:22 PM
go to Mason-right around median there (want to transfer to GW or Gtown and am willing to drop out and just retake the lsat)
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: Ninja1 on September 18, 2009, 07:39:27 PM
go to Mason-right around median there (want to transfer to GW or Gtown and am willing to drop out and just retake the lsat)

What are you freaking out about then? You're fine. You're probably screwed on big law and prestigious clerkships, but so what? Enjoy in-state tuition and mid law or some decent government job. You'll still lead a very balla lifestyle by the standards of 99% of the planet's population. Roll with it.
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: jdstandsforjokedegree on September 18, 2009, 08:21:04 PM
i'm paying out of state tuition, though and Mason's OCI sucks balls compared to Georgetown's and GW's--is there nothing I can do to transfer up or am I stuck (i will drop out and retake the lsat if that is what it takes)?
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: elle-y on September 18, 2009, 10:07:24 PM
nope. once you've got grades they are yours and yours to keep. you don't get to start over. that would be sweet if you could....

that said, I've heard stories of 1L's getting the chance to repeat their 1L year at the SAME SCHOOL. but that's something you need to talk to your school about. and even if you can do that, I seriously doubt another school would accept you as a transfer once you've repeated.
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: jacy85 on September 19, 2009, 10:12:11 AM
didn't do so well during 1L-can I drop out and retake the lsat to try to get into a better school?  will the 1L grades haunt me?

You just need to suck it up and continue, at least if you really want to be a lawyer.  Just network, network, network, and try to do clinics and externships to get as much experience as you can, and you'll find some job.  It won't be BIGLAW, but midlaw isn't so bad.

And I hate to say it, but I hope more people over on the pre-law board see this post.  This is an unfortunate example of why 0Ls should NEVER choose a law school that they wouldn't be 100% happy attending because transferring is never a sure thing.
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: xxspykex on September 19, 2009, 08:19:43 PM
I just want to add to what has been said that OP has no midlaw possibility (at least not for class of 2011). I mean any employer 50+ is getting hit hard with people that are going t14s with decent grades, who didn't get anything in biglaw this year (I mean roughly 66-75% of schools outside of HYS ended up empty handed from OCI and even around 1/2 of harvard did badly this year). Public interest and government are out as well because those jobs have been cut back drastically and all these people at top schools that didn't end up at biglaw are shooting for midlaw, gvt, or PI. Small law firms doing something like personal injury work is still a possibility though.
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: nealric on September 21, 2009, 09:59:52 AM
Quote
i'm paying out of state tuition, though and Mason's OCI sucks balls compared to Georgetown's and GW's--is there nothing I can do to transfer up or am I stuck (i will drop out and retake the lsat if that is what it takes)?

Everyone's OCI sucks balls right now. Even at GULC, your Biglaw prospects would be slim with median grades barring a major uptick. With median grades at a respectible school, I certainly wouldn't drop out unless you just decided law is not for you. You may not make 6 figures for a while, but that doesn't mean your career is sunk. Get going on the networking though- ABA functions, inns of the court, etc.
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: jdstandsforjokedegree on September 21, 2009, 07:26:35 PM
Quote
i'm paying out of state tuition, though and Mason's OCI sucks balls compared to Georgetown's and GW's--is there nothing I can do to transfer up or am I stuck (i will drop out and retake the lsat if that is what it takes)?

Everyone's OCI sucks balls right now. Even at GULC, your Biglaw prospects would be slim with median grades barring a major uptick. With median grades at a respectible school, I certainly wouldn't drop out unless you just decided law is not for you. You may not make 6 figures for a while, but that doesn't mean your career is sunk. Get going on the networking though- ABA functions, inns of the court, etc.

I go to George Mason, though.  Median there is a career death sentence.
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: TheDudeMan on September 22, 2009, 07:55:48 AM
While you may struggle to get a biglaw job, you will still have a law degree at a cheap cost (assuming you are a VA resident).
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: Stuck on September 23, 2009, 12:53:40 AM
you can't retake the LSAT after you have 1L grades - you have to apply to other schools as a transfer per ABA rules.

if you haven't finished your first semester, you still have that option to drop out and start all over, however. there are some rules around that that I'm a little confused on (one school told me you had to wait 3 years or you WOULD have to apply as a transfer).

consider talking to your advisor about your options.



I'm a first semester 1L that hates the school I'm at and can't stand the thought of having to wait to transfer (and given how miserable I am, my grades will inevitably be too poor).  There is a school I'd like to go to with a January intake.  If I withdraw from school before the semester's over, could I apply to the other school? 
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: TheDudeMan on September 23, 2009, 06:17:03 AM
Theoretically, yes you could apply.  However, the reality is no school is going to take a first semester drop-out....
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: Ninja1 on September 23, 2009, 08:04:05 PM
Theoretically, yes you could apply.  However, the reality is no school is going to take a first semester drop-out....

This is not correct.

A first semester drop out can get into another school, but you're probably going to have some explaining and reassuring to do.
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: elle-y on September 23, 2009, 09:02:43 PM
Theoretically, yes you could apply.  However, the reality is no school is going to take a first semester drop-out....

This is not correct.

A first semester drop out can get into another school, but you're probably going to have some explaining and reassuring to do.

TITCR, and to add, it seems to be a relatively common occurrence. I'm in that boat (with a long gap of several years between schools) and my original school and schools i'm applying to have assured me of the process and my options.

No one has even hinted at advising that it is a waste of my time to consider.
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: Stuck on September 23, 2009, 09:12:35 PM
Theoretically, yes you could apply.  However, the reality is no school is going to take a first semester drop-out....

This is not correct.

A first semester drop out can get into another school, but you're probably going to have some explaining and reassuring to do.

TITCR, and to add, it seems to be a relatively common occurrence. I'm in that boat (with a long gap of several years between schools) and my original school and schools i'm applying to have assured me of the process and my options.

No one has even hinted at advising that it is a waste of my time to consider.

Several years and several months is a bit different.

Obligatory immoral question:  If I withdraw without ever having had any grades recorded, and if I don't mention that I'd ever attended another school before, how would the prospective school know?  Do schools report matriculations to LSAC? 

You'd get caught by the Bar's background check, but would LSAC know as well? 
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: elle-y on September 23, 2009, 09:18:00 PM

Obligatory immoral question:  If I withdraw without ever having had any grades recorded, and if I don't mention that I'd ever attended another school before, how would the prospective school know?  Do schools report matriculations to LSAC? 

You'd get caught by the Bar's background check, but would LSAC know as well? 

So I was only at my school for 2 weeks, if that long - they give my transcript to LSAC a few weeks later (which I didn't know until recently, but it was submitted right after I dropped out.) I don't know what it says, I didn't have any grades, but I'm sure its "withdrew". I called the school recently and they said they'd be happy to confirm I was in good standing to the schools I apply to - MAKE SURE you check this.

But yes, otherwise you'd be denied admission to your state's Bar.
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: Ninja1 on September 23, 2009, 10:36:55 PM
Theoretically, yes you could apply.  However, the reality is no school is going to take a first semester drop-out....

This is not correct.

A first semester drop out can get into another school, but you're probably going to have some explaining and reassuring to do.

TITCR, and to add, it seems to be a relatively common occurrence. I'm in that boat (with a long gap of several years between schools) and my original school and schools i'm applying to have assured me of the process and my options.

No one has even hinted at advising that it is a waste of my time to consider.

Several years and several months is a bit different.

Obligatory immoral question:  If I withdraw without ever having had any grades recorded, and if I don't mention that I'd ever attended another school before, how would the prospective school know?  Do schools report matriculations to LSAC? 

You'd get caught by the Bar's background check, but would LSAC know as well? 

I know of at least one person that dropped out of FSU like 2 weeks into 1L last year and is a 1L at a slightly higher ranked school in another state this year.

LSAC knows.
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: TheDudeMan on September 24, 2009, 06:11:55 AM
Theoretically, yes you could apply.  However, the reality is no school is going to take a first semester drop-out....

This is not correct.

A first semester drop out can get into another school, but you're probably going to have some explaining and reassuring to do.

Maybe some second rate law school will take a drop-out but nowhere worth going.  Reputable law schools have drop out rates of 1-2% and they aren't going to take a risk on a student that left months into their first semester.
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: Ninja1 on September 24, 2009, 12:49:22 PM
Theoretically, yes you could apply.  However, the reality is no school is going to take a first semester drop-out....

This is not correct.

A first semester drop out can get into another school, but you're probably going to have some explaining and reassuring to do.

Maybe some second rate law school will take a drop-out but nowhere worth going.  Reputable law schools have drop out rates of 1-2% and they aren't going to take a risk on a student that left months into their first semester.

Patently incorrect.
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: TheDudeMan on September 24, 2009, 01:02:17 PM
Prove me wrong?  Some low ranked tier 1 is not a good school, so before you go shooting off somewhere ranked like 43, don't waste your time.
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: elle-y on September 24, 2009, 01:33:19 PM
Prove me wrong?  Some low ranked tier 1 is not a good school, so before you go shooting off somewhere ranked like 43, don't waste your time.

I don't really know what your argument is. First you say a school won't take a former drop out, now you're saying you shouldn't go to school with a high attrition rate. How are those related again....?
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: TheDudeMan on September 24, 2009, 01:40:21 PM
Prove me wrong?  Some low ranked tier 1 is not a good school, so before you go shooting off somewhere ranked like 43, don't waste your time.

I don't really know what your argument is. First you say a school won't take a former drop out, now you're saying you shouldn't go to school with a high attrition rate. How are those related again....?

I said no school worth going to will take a drop out.  Schools with high attrition rates are generally TTT.

Take Florida State for example where I believe Ninja goes..... http://abovethelaw.com/2009/04/whats_up_with_the_flori-duh_fe.php
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: elle-y on September 24, 2009, 01:58:28 PM
2 things:

"worth" is a value dependent on the applicant not only their independent aspirations but on their regional needs

how the heck do you know what a school will or won't do?

edited to add: attrition rates are indicative of the school they drop out came from, not the new school. unrelated.
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: Ninja1 on September 24, 2009, 02:06:30 PM
Prove me wrong?  Some low ranked tier 1 is not a good school, so before you go shooting off somewhere ranked like 43, don't waste your time.

I don't really know what your argument is. First you say a school won't take a former drop out, now you're saying you shouldn't go to school with a high attrition rate. How are those related again....?

I said no school worth going to will take a drop out.  Schools with high attrition rates are generally TTT.

Take Florida State for example where I believe Ninja goes..... http://abovethelaw.com/2009/04/whats_up_with_the_flori-duh_fe.php

http://www.floridabarexam.org/public/main.nsf/ES0909.PDF/

The Feb exam was an outlier.

So what makes a school worth going to? Attrition rates in the low single digits, bar passage rates around 90%, employment rate about the same, dominant in a state or regional market, those not good enough?

Didn't you go to GW?

Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: TheDudeMan on September 25, 2009, 07:18:06 AM
I'd say national presence, rank, and job finding ability.  Sure, FSU may do well with it's top students, but if you are at the median you aren't exactly pulling market rate.  Not to mention outside of Florida you aren't even getting interviews.

Yeah, GW.  What are you going to bash it ha ha?
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: Ninja1 on September 25, 2009, 03:37:52 PM
I'd say national presence, rank, and job finding ability.  Sure, FSU may do well with it's top students, but if you are at the median you aren't exactly pulling market rate.  Not to mention outside of Florida you aren't even getting interviews.

Yeah, GW.  What are you going to bash it ha ha?

Just inquiring. Making sure this wasn't some sort of HYS nonsense.

Who needs to make market when in-state tuition is like $11k? Midlaw or government serve most state school grads just fine.

Agree that national presence and all it entails is a big deal, but I wouldn't overstate its value in terms of what makes for a good school. Public schools are generally made up of people that are from the state or want to move to the state, and that are going to self-select to stay in the state without some compelling reason to go elsewhere. In the case of FSU, more legwork might be required, but you can find a job outside of Florida and Georgia if you look. Even crap private schools can easily place in 20+ states.
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: TheDudeMan on September 25, 2009, 07:38:06 PM
What crap private schools place in 20 plus states?  That's just wrong.  Regional schools are just that, regional.  Which is all well and good, but law school is expensive.  To each their own, but it's a fact that a lot of students going to lower ranked schools regret their decision down the road.
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: vap on September 26, 2009, 10:08:41 AM
What [low-ranked] private schools place in 20 plus states?  That's just wrong.  Regional schools are just that, regional.  Which is all well and good, but law school is expensive.  To each their own, but it's a fact that a lot of students going to lower ranked schools regret their decision down the road.

E.g.

Cooley - 42.  http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage_PDFs/ABA_LawSchoolData/ABA1796.pdf
Ave Maria - 24.  http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage_PDFs/ABA_LawSchoolData/ABA1801.pdf
Catholic - 20.  http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage_PDFs/ABA_LawSchoolData/ABA5104.pdf
Drake - 23.  http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage_PDFs/ABA_LawSchoolData/ABA6168.pdf
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: TheDudeMan on September 26, 2009, 11:06:57 AM
What [low-ranked] private schools place in 20 plus states?  That's just wrong.  Regional schools are just that, regional.  Which is all well and good, but law school is expensive.  To each their own, but it's a fact that a lot of students going to lower ranked schools regret their decision down the road.

E.g.

Cooley - 42.  http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage_PDFs/ABA_LawSchoolData/ABA1796.pdf
Ave Maria - 24.  http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage_PDFs/ABA_LawSchoolData/ABA1801.pdf
Catholic - 20.  http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage_PDFs/ABA_LawSchoolData/ABA5104.pdf
Drake - 23.  http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage_PDFs/ABA_LawSchoolData/ABA6168.pdf

Are you kidding?  Cooley is a joke, as is Ave Maria and Drake.  Catholic also struggles for legal placement, even within it's regional area because it's the number 5 school in an already saturated market.

Just because a student succeeds every now and then doesn't mean you should go there.  Statistics will catch up to you.  You aren't that shining star....
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: vap on September 26, 2009, 11:37:39 AM
What [low-ranked] private schools place in 20 plus states?  That's just wrong.  Regional schools are just that, regional.  Which is all well and good, but law school is expensive.  To each their own, but it's a fact that a lot of students going to lower ranked schools regret their decision down the road.

E.g.

Cooley - 42.  http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage_PDFs/ABA_LawSchoolData/ABA1796.pdf
Ave Maria - 24.  http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage_PDFs/ABA_LawSchoolData/ABA1801.pdf
Catholic - 20.  http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage_PDFs/ABA_LawSchoolData/ABA5104.pdf
Drake - 23.  http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage_PDFs/ABA_LawSchoolData/ABA6168.pdf

Are you kidding?  Cooley is a joke, as is Ave Maria and Drake.  Catholic also struggles for legal placement, even within it's regional area because it's the number 5 school in an already saturated market.

Just because a student succeeds every now and then doesn't mean you should go there.  Statistics will catch up to you.  You aren't that shining star....

Your question had nothing to do with succeeding or being a shining star.  You asked for a list of "crap private schools [that] place in 20 plus states."  I listed four low-ranked school that placed in 20+ states according to data reported to ABA.

Maybe you and Ninja are just arguing past each other about "national presence."  One definition of national presence = a top law school.  Another definition of national presence = graduates work in many different states.

Schools that are high ranked and have national presence probably have national presence because students from all over the country want to attend.  Many of those students return to their home state after attending the top school and are able to find great jobs with large law firms.

But plenty of other schools also have "national presence" in the sense that students from across the country decide to attend, either because they received a scholarship, couldn't get in to the better schools in their home state, or for some other reason.  Those students are also likely to return to their home states--but of course, the key difference is that these students are not making high $$$.

Key:
Where students work geographically has more to do with students' preferences rather than reputation of school.
What type of jobs students can get has more to do with school reputation rather than student preferences.
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: TheDudeMan on September 27, 2009, 07:42:39 AM
"Place in 20 states" is being used too literally.  Cooley students can't just go get a job in 20 states.  The reality is they can barely get a job at all.

If you want to be naive, go ahead.  You probably go to one of the TTT's listed and are therefore defending it.
Title: Re: bad 1L grades-drop out and retake lsat to go to better school?
Post by: Ninja1 on October 06, 2009, 11:41:44 AM
What [low-ranked] private schools place in 20 plus states?  That's just wrong.  Regional schools are just that, regional.  Which is all well and good, but law school is expensive.  To each their own, but it's a fact that a lot of students going to lower ranked schools regret their decision down the road.

E.g.

Cooley - 42.  http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage_PDFs/ABA_LawSchoolData/ABA1796.pdf
Ave Maria - 24.  http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage_PDFs/ABA_LawSchoolData/ABA1801.pdf
Catholic - 20.  http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage_PDFs/ABA_LawSchoolData/ABA5104.pdf
Drake - 23.  http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage_PDFs/ABA_LawSchoolData/ABA6168.pdf

Are you kidding?  Cooley is a joke, as is Ave Maria and Drake.  Catholic also struggles for legal placement, even within it's regional area because it's the number 5 school in an already saturated market.

Just because a student succeeds every now and then doesn't mean you should go there.  Statistics will catch up to you.  You aren't that shining star....

Your question had nothing to do with succeeding or being a shining star.  You asked for a list of "crap private schools [that] place in 20 plus states."  I listed four low-ranked school that placed in 20+ states according to data reported to ABA.

Maybe you and Ninja are just arguing past each other about "national presence."  One definition of national presence = a top law school.  Another definition of national presence = graduates work in many different states.

Schools that are high ranked and have national presence probably have national presence because students from all over the country want to attend.  Many of those students return to their home state after attending the top school and are able to find great jobs with large law firms.

But plenty of other schools also have "national presence" in the sense that students from across the country decide to attend, either because they received a scholarship, couldn't get in to the better schools in their home state, or for some other reason.  Those students are also likely to return to their home states--but of course, the key difference is that these students are not making high $$$.

Key:
Where students work geographically has more to do with students' preferences rather than reputation of school.
What type of jobs students can get has more to do with school reputation rather than student preferences.

This.