Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses => Topic started by: Matlock!!!! on July 09, 2009, 09:50:12 PM

Title: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: Matlock!!!! on July 09, 2009, 09:50:12 PM
From Paul L. Caron, TaxProf Blog:

LawSchoolNumbers.com ranks the 195 law schools by 1L attrition rates.  (The ABA Section on Legal Education publishes aggregate attrition rates, and each school's attrition rate is available on its official ABA data sheet.)  Here are the 25 law schools with the highest attrition rates according to LawSchoolNumbers.com, along with the school's 2009 U.S. News overall ranking:

   1. Whittier (51.5% 1L attrition, #161 in U.S. News)
   2. Touro (37.4%, #171)
   3. Golden Gate (36.9%, #174)
   4. Western State (32.6%, not ranked)
   5. Jones School of Law (32.3%, not ranked)
   6. Widener (30.5%, #179)
   7. St. Thomas University (28.5%, #174)
   8. Barry (27.6%, #181)
   9. Liberty (27.1%, not ranked)
  10. Thomas M Cooley (26.0%, #181)
  11. Florida Coastal (23.7%, #171)
  12. California Western (23.6%, #156)
  13. Valparaiso (23.4%, #143)
  14. Florida International (23.3%, #153)
  15. Capital (22.8%, #161)
  16. Louisville (22.5%, #100)
  17. North Carolina Central (22.1%, #168)
  18. Detroit Mercy (21.9%, $163)
  19. Nova Southeastern (21.8%, #158)
  20. Oklahoma City (21.0%, $168)
  21. Willamette (21.0%, #137)
  22. Western New England (20.7%, #171)
  23. Northern Kentucky (20.2%, #156)
  24. University of The District of Columbia (20.0%, #181)
  25. Franklin Pierce (19.9%, #131)

With the economy and the over over abundance of law schools and graduates, how in good conscious can the ABA justify keeping these school accredited.  They are all abominations.  And Louisville.... SHAME ON YOU!
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: RobWreck on July 10, 2009, 04:41:53 PM
Perhaps I'm misreading things, but is this attrition rate due to academic dismissal alone or does it include withdrawal for economic reasons and transferrign students? If it's purely 'failed out', it's rediculous. If it includes those that transferred out to better schools, then is such a high rate any real surprise?
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: Ninja1 on July 11, 2009, 05:51:39 AM
Perhaps I'm misreading things, but is this attrition rate due to academic dismissal alone or does it include withdrawal for economic reasons and transferrign students? If it's purely 'failed out', it's rediculous. If it includes those that transferred out to better schools, then is such a high rate any real surprise?

These are the overall attrition numbers, both for academic and "other" reasons.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: Matthies on July 11, 2009, 07:23:57 AM
Why does this matter? I mean call me crazy, even if these numbers were pure academic dismissals, where does it say people should not be kicked out of law school if they canít maintain a certain GPA. What bothers me more is that this is the NORM at the vast majority of schools. Iím sorry maybe Iím a male private part here but if you canít pull better than 2.0 at a law school with a B+ curve over 3 years you should not be graduating with a law degree. Thatís doing a bigger disservice in my view to the profession than schools that actually kick people out. Most law schools are degree mills, you matriculate you graduate. If some schools choose to actually kick some of those people out who canít really hack it by lowering their curves to the point that some people actually have to fail out instead of graduating anyone with a pulse, I donít see how thatís bad for the profession.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: Matlock!!!! on July 11, 2009, 09:07:47 AM
With out doing an excessive amount of research on this, I think it's fair to look at the schools in question and realize that they are letting in sub-standard applicants with no chance of success.  These schools make a living off the 1L tuition of these dreamers. And the attrition doesn't stop at 1L.  Many schools, Williamette comes to mind, are not afraid to "cut bait on you" as late into your 3L year.  At that point they realize they have to protect their bar passage rate, as meager as it may already be.  Also, do you see many people matriculating INTO any of these schools?  That answer I know.... NO. 

If you're in the bottom quartile of your class, you should be worried, ITE.  At that point, the onus is on you.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: nealric on July 11, 2009, 09:20:01 AM
Quote
Iím sorry maybe Iím a male private part here but if you canít pull better than 2.0 at a law school with a B+ curve over 3 years you should not be graduating with a law degree.

I'm pretty sure most of these schools curve to a C or even C-.

Frankly, I'm not really all that up in arms that these places exist. I do think peoplpe should be sure they know what they are getting into before starting at these schools.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: Matthies on July 11, 2009, 09:22:10 AM
With out doing an excessive amount of research on this, I think it's fair to look at the schools in question and realize that they are letting in sub-standard applicants with no chance of success.  These schools make a living off the 1L tuition of these dreamers. And the attrition doesn't stop at 1L.  Many schools, Williamette comes to mind, are not afraid to "cut bait on you" as late into your 3L year.  At that point they realize they have to protect their bar passage rate, as meager as it may already be.  Also, do you see many people matriculating INTO any of these schools?  That answer I know.... NO. 

If you're in the bottom quartile of your class, you should be worried, ITE.  At that point, the onus is on you.

But where is the students liabality? I mean its like smoking, everyone knows it will kill you, but people still smoke. Is that the fault of the ciggreetee companines but the not the smokers? I'm not a big fan of blaming schools becuase studnets are stupid. The schools exists to give people a chance that can't get in anywhere else, the students choose to enroll, there is no gun to thier head. I'm just not a big fan of making rules to save people from thier own individual choices. For some people this schools will be an end to a means. So long as attrition is not 100% I don't see a problem with buyer be ware.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: Matthies on July 11, 2009, 09:25:50 AM
Quote
Iím sorry maybe Iím a male private part here but if you canít pull better than 2.0 at a law school with a B+ curve over 3 years you should not be graduating with a law degree.

I'm pretty sure most of these schools curve to a C or even C-.

Frankly, I'm not really all that up in arms that these places exist. I do think peoplpe should be sure they know what they are getting into before starting at these schools.

I think you missed my point, my point is not what these schools curve to, but that most schools curve to the point that you can't really fail out unless you TRY. Hence you get into a school with a B+ curve your going to graduate so long as you at least show up on test day. At a school that curves to a C, this is NOT the case. So the studnets with a 2.0 at a B+ school becoames a lawyer yet that same studnet had he gone to a C cruve shcool would have been drumed out.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: Matlock!!!! on July 11, 2009, 09:51:26 AM
I used to believe as you do Mathies... why try to save anyone? It's their life.

But I am concerned that the ABA has accredited WAY to many schools for the opportunities that are available.  Also, at many of these schools your paying tuition equal to that of the T14-Tier 1.  That, imho, is an abomination.  Hell, at LEAST make it affordable.

I would also like to add I have NOTHING against T2, T3, T4 schools that are regionally located and offer a lower priced opportunity for people to attend and practice in that area... ie, South Dakota, North Dakota, Montana... etc..  Those schools actually serve a needed purpose.  It just seems obvious to me, that the only thing keeping the above institutions afloat, is not their reputation and service, but the failures of those the schools knew had no chance to hack it in the first place.  The following review was from a couple of years ago, but the message is still relevant:

http://www99.epinions.com/review/educ-Law_Schools-All-California_Western_Law/content_335894187652
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: Matthies on July 11, 2009, 10:13:46 AM
I used to believe as you do Mathies... why try to save anyone? It's their life.

But I am concerned that the ABA has accredited WAY to many schools for the opportunities that are available.  Also, at many of these schools your paying tuition equal to that of the T14-Tier 1.  That, imho, is an abomination.  Hell, at LEAST make it affordable.


But wouldn't then be a better argument to say the ABA should unaacredit all the law schools ranked ABOVE the one you go to? I mean if low ranked schools are just putting out a ton of new grads who can't find any jobs anyway they really arn't compeating with you anyway. It seems the thing that would help everyone is to just unacredit all the schools ranked above yours, everybody but the Yalie wins! The point is niether answer is as simplstic as we want it to be. There is no good answer other than you takes your chances there are no gaurntees in life. The ABA's role is not to provide everyone with a good paying law job, nither is the the LAW SCHOOLS JOB. A law schools grants you a JD, its a school, not a headhunter. Its the studnets job to find a job, not the schools or the ABA's job to find you a job. The promise you one thing, they will provide you with the clases neccassry to get the JD. Nothing else. If students want to hold the school resposible for getting them a job, that's anouther thing, and a diffrent argument, but its not what schools promise to do for you. Yes schools publish job stats, schools also publish stats on thier law reviews and clubs, that does not mean they are garntunteeing you a spot on one. Studnets need to realize, and take resposeblity for the fact a school is a school and nothing more.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: Matlock!!!! on July 11, 2009, 10:31:06 AM
Yes schools publish job stats, schools also publish stats on thier law reviews and clubs, that does not mean they are garntunteeing you a spot on one. Studnets need to realize, and take resposeblity for the fact a school is a school and nothing more.
Well, when they graduate with over $150,000 in debt and NO way of paying it back, they'll realize. 

I realize the ABA isn't going to do anything.  I believe they lost a lawsuit a few years ago and now schools can't seem to create enough new law schools.  We'll see in the next 10 years if schools end up pricing themselves out of existence.  If things are truly as bad as ATL and the ABA Journal indicate.... things are only going to get worse.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: Ninja1 on July 11, 2009, 05:53:17 PM
If the ABA introduces the rule about a school's bar passage rate having to be within 10% of the state's average in 3 of the last 5 years, most of these places will take care of themselves.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: Papa Bear on July 11, 2009, 07:01:36 PM
"Many that [are accredited] deserve [not to be]. And some [are not accredited] that deserve [to be.]  Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out [rescission] in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends."
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: jollyrog on July 14, 2009, 06:40:19 PM
I do think peoplpe should be sure they know what they are getting into before starting at these schools.

In 1993, when all I had going for me was my train wreck undergrad GPA (I mean, like 1.abominable ...) and my 165 LSAT, Nova Southeastern was playing a game where instead of waitlisting, they'd "conditionally" accept applicants provided they earned a B average in two summer courses. I asked the advisor at Stetson about this, and she told me, "It's a money maker for them. They probably have an attrition rate of nearly 60%", but since they weren't actually admitted students, it didn't show up in the reporting.

Realizing that, even though I was confident in my ability to get the grades, I politely declined on principle.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: nealric on July 14, 2009, 07:55:38 PM
Quote
I think you missed my point, my point is not what these schools curve to, but that most schools curve to the point that you can't really fail out unless you TRY.

Yep, sorry- I misread your post. I think the problem is that some schools who are either marginally accredited or vying for accreditation desperately need to get their bar pass rates up. Failing people out is the easy way out- even if some of those fail-outs would have passed the bar and made great lawyers.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: jtgain on July 16, 2009, 09:59:19 AM
As I said in the other thread, Nova Southeastern has eliminated all full tuition scholarships.  To me, that says nothing except, "We don't care about attracting quality students; we are concerned about money only!"
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: big - fat - box on July 16, 2009, 03:32:54 PM
A lot of these schools would up their bar passage rates and reputation if they simply stopped admitting student who were likely to fail the bar and overhauled their curriculum.

The reason these schools don't do that is b/c the rely on the high priced tuition to keep the school running and pay prof. salaries and such. A lot of these schools wouldn't be able to run themselves if they simply reduced incoming class sizes by half or more. I agree that they are essentially ripping off a lot of students.

Same thing with gpa string scholarships, bogus salary/employment stats, etc.

As far as the top 100 school thing, there are some terrible schools in the top 100 also. What I mean specifically are private tier 2 schools in overcrowed markets. I'd shut down some of the private schools ranked in the top 100 before some of the state schools in tier 3/4.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: legalized on October 29, 2009, 10:09:40 AM
From Paul L. Caron, TaxProf Blog:

LawSchoolNumbers.com ranks the 195 law schools by 1L attrition rates.  (The ABA Section on Legal Education publishes aggregate attrition rates, and each school's attrition rate is available on its official ABA data sheet.)  Here are the 25 law schools with the highest attrition rates according to LawSchoolNumbers.com, along with the school's 2009 U.S. News overall ranking:

   1. Whittier (51.5% 1L attrition, #161 in U.S. News)
   2. Touro (37.4%, #171)
   3. Golden Gate (36.9%, #174)
   4. Western State (32.6%, not ranked)
   5. Jones School of Law (32.3%, not ranked)
   6. Widener (30.5%, #179)
   7. St. Thomas University (28.5%, #174)
   8. Barry (27.6%, #181)
   9. Liberty (27.1%, not ranked)
  10. Thomas M Cooley (26.0%, #181)
  11. Florida Coastal (23.7%, #171)
  12. California Western (23.6%, #156)
  13. Valparaiso (23.4%, #143)
  14. Florida International (23.3%, #153)
  15. Capital (22.8%, #161)
  16. Louisville (22.5%, #100)
  17. North Carolina Central (22.1%, #168)
  18. Detroit Mercy (21.9%, $163)
  19. Nova Southeastern (21.8%, #158)
  20. Oklahoma City (21.0%, $168)
  21. Willamette (21.0%, #137)
  22. Western New England (20.7%, #171)
  23. Northern Kentucky (20.2%, #156)
  24. University of The District of Columbia (20.0%, #181)
  25. Franklin Pierce (19.9%, #131)

With the economy and the over over abundance of law schools and graduates, how in good conscious can the ABA justify keeping these school accredited.  They are all abominations.  And Louisville.... SHAME ON YOU!

As I read somewhere else...it is actually to these schools' CREDIT that they kick people out at a higher rate than the top schools...because it proves, if youthink about it, that they ARE teaching the same law at the same quality as the upper schools...the upper schools are just more SELECTIVE and only let people in who they are MORE than reasonably sure can cut it.

These schools are not poorer in the material taught, they are poorer in SELECTIVITY.  So whereas if i am admitted to harvard i can pretty much be reinforced in the idea that i WILL graduate and pass the bar because the VAAAST majority of their admits do just that...admittance to cooley or wherever still leaves me big doubts on finishing because they routinely let people in who can't actually make it through law school and can't pass the bar.

Think about it...a less selective school, if they are teaching what harvard is teaching, SHOULD have a much higher dropout rate!
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: ERCLAW on December 08, 2009, 05:25:04 PM
This is a problem with ABA accreditation standards. I don't know about anyone else, but when I was in college I was an idiot. I didn't take the LSAT seriously nor did I take GPA seriously. So I landed myself into a conundrum. It was a immaturity and being poor.

Anyways, after getting 5 rejections, 2 waitlists, and 1 acceptance. I decided I would take my acceptance. It was a non-aba school. It was the best choice I could have made. I got loads of attention, and was given an opportunity. I passed the bar last year in Conn/Mass. Plus I charged up half of what my friends up at Suffolk have on their tabs.

Yet, I am still discriminated against by the usual suspects. Despite the fact I have 2 bars under my belt and a JD/BA. Some of the ABA schools in Mass should not be ABA that is true. I can think of 3 off the top of my head. Right now they are lobbying to stop the first PUBLIC law school from forming out of a school that should have been accredited a long time ago. Due to political bs they got slammed in 2004. 

The ABA operates on dirty money and political clout. Period. The fact they are a private organization is also at issue I think.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: TTom on December 25, 2009, 02:13:42 PM
From Paul L. Caron, TaxProf Blog:

LawSchoolNumbers.com ranks the 195 law schools by 1L attrition rates.  (The ABA Section on Legal Education publishes aggregate attrition rates, and each school's attrition rate is available on its official ABA data sheet.)  Here are the 25 law schools with the highest attrition rates according to LawSchoolNumbers.com, along with the school's 2009 U.S. News overall ranking:

   1. Whittier (51.5% 1L attrition, #161 in U.S. News)
   2. Touro (37.4%, #171)
   3. Golden Gate (36.9%, #174)
   4. Western State (32.6%, not ranked)
   5. Jones School of Law (32.3%, not ranked)
   6. Widener (30.5%, #179)
   7. St. Thomas University (28.5%, #174)
   8. Barry (27.6%, #181)
   9. Liberty (27.1%, not ranked)
  10. Thomas M Cooley (26.0%, #181)
  11. Florida Coastal (23.7%, #171)
  12. California Western (23.6%, #156)
  13. Valparaiso (23.4%, #143)
  14. Florida International (23.3%, #153)
  15. Capital (22.8%, #161)
  16. Louisville (22.5%, #100)
  17. North Carolina Central (22.1%, #168)
  18. Detroit Mercy (21.9%, $163)
  19. Nova Southeastern (21.8%, #158)
  20. Oklahoma City (21.0%, $168)
  21. Willamette (21.0%, #137)
  22. Western New England (20.7%, #171)
  23. Northern Kentucky (20.2%, #156)
  24. University of The District of Columbia (20.0%, #181)
  25. Franklin Pierce (19.9%, #131)

With the economy and the over over abundance of law schools and graduates, how in good conscious can the ABA justify keeping these school accredited.  They are all abominations.  And Louisville.... SHAME ON YOU!

There is good reason why the ABA accredits these law schools. It's simple. Any person that demonstrates mere competence should be allowed to practice law.

Law touches all of our lives. So deeply rooted is this concept that, as the maxim goes, "ignorance of the law is no excuse." The Federal Rules of Civil Procedure are built around this concept, allowing for pro se litigants to have their day in court. In short, our democracy is built upon the rule of law and the idea that all persons that demonstrate minimal competence should be allowed to participate in the very mechanism that, potentially, can take away life, liberty, and property.

For good or bad, it is the market and individual states that will regulate who practices, not the ABA. For example, bad attorneys will either not have clients and leave the profession (market forces), or will be barred (by the state bar or state supreme court) through disciplinary actions.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: bigs5068 on February 16, 2010, 10:48:06 PM
Well going to a T-4 I will tell you the curve does not force anybody out. Golden Gate allows for up to 90% of the class to get an A or B and only 10% are required to get a C and there is no mandatory D's at all. GGU's bar passage rate was 77% compared to UC Hastings 80% and they are ranked number 38 or something like that in U.S..  Tier 4's are not cesspools like the ignorant idiots on this board who have no experience with them say they are.  There are people there that don't put in the work and fail out, but if you get through you get through it. Consideration in a contract is the same whether you learned it Harvard or Cooley, we are learning the same things.  Obviously, someone at Harvard will have more opportunities,but location has something do with it also. I can say confidently that I will have a better shot at getting a job in San Francisco than a guy going to Florida State will. There are numerous alumni of GGU in the bay area and T-4's place will in the location they are in.  I probably won't be living a jet-setting lifestyle upon graduation, but I have already found a good summer job I am happy with and hopefully it will work out and turn it to something permanent. The attorney's there are not millionares and I never expected that lifestyle from going to a T-4. However, I find the law interesting and have always wanted to be a lawyer and so I am in law school. Stop bashing T-4's when you no nothing about them.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: jollyrog on February 17, 2010, 05:56:49 AM
Well going to a T-4 I will tell you the curve does not force anybody out. Golden Gate allows for up to 90% of the class to get an A or B and only 10% are required to get a C and there is no mandatory D's at all. GGU's bar passage rate was 77% compared to UC Hastings 80% and they are ranked number 38 or something like that in U.S..  Tier 4's are not cesspools like the ignorant idiots on this board who have no experience with them say they are.  There are people there that don't put in the work and fail out, but if you get through you get through it. Consideration in a contract is the same whether you learned it Harvard or Cooley, we are learning the same things.  Obviously, someone at Harvard will have more opportunities,but location has something do with it also. I can say confidently that I will have a better shot at getting a job in San Francisco than a guy going to Florida State will. There are numerous alumni of GGU in the bay area and T-4's place will in the location they are in.  I probably won't be living a jet-setting lifestyle upon graduation, but I have already found a good summer job I am happy with and hopefully it will work out and turn it to something permanent. The attorney's there are not millionares and I never expected that lifestyle from going to a T-4. However, I find the law interesting and have always wanted to be a lawyer and so I am in law school. Stop bashing T-4's when you no nothing about them.

Call me crazy, but I think spelling, punctuation, and correct homonym usage might separate T4 students from Harvard's, as well.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: cooleylawstudent on February 17, 2010, 06:44:14 AM
Prick, they dont grade on spelling at the bar. It ain't the third grade.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: bigs5068 on February 17, 2010, 09:27:50 AM
It is law school discussion I am not spending hours on my punctuation. I have a job for summer paying me pretty well, which is what I wanted after my first year of law school and I did it going to a T-4.  All half the people do on here is criticize lower ranked schools when they go to what the 83rd best school in U.S. news instead of the 114th really get over yourselves. Law school will work out if you put in the work and don't waste your time on law school discussion trashing other schools.  I am not trying to argue that I will have the same opportunities as a Harvard Grad, but T-4's are not cesspools there are smart people there and the professors went to Harvard or Yale and no matter what school you go to the rules and law are the same.  A tort is a tort whether you go to Harvard or Cooley.  Waste your time criticizing the punctuation of my two second rant if you want.   

I am just writing on this board to let people know the horrible things they hear about T-4's are not true. I almost made the worst mistake of my life by believing that people on this board said about T-4's being cesspools and going to a higher ranked school in a place that I had no desire to live. Had I done that it would have screwed up my family and relationship. Instead I went to a T-4 and my family, relationship, and educational career are going fine. THE END
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: TheCause on February 17, 2010, 10:12:05 AM
It is law school discussion I am not spending hours on my punctuation. I have a job for summer paying me pretty well, which is what I wanted after my first year of law school and I did it going to a T-4.  All half the people do on here is criticize lower ranked schools when they go to what the 83rd best school in U.S. news instead of the 114th really get over yourselves. Law school will work out if you put in the work and don't waste your time on law school discussion trashing other schools.  I am not trying to argue that I will have the same opportunities as a Harvard Grad, but T-4's are not cesspools there are smart people there and the professors went to Harvard or Yale and no matter what school you go to the rules and law are the same.  A tort is a tort whether you go to Harvard or Cooley.  Waste your time criticizing the punctuation of my two second rant if you want.   

I am just writing on this board to let people know the horrible things they hear about T-4's are not true. I almost made the worst mistake of my life by believing that people on this board said about T-4's being cesspools and going to a higher ranked school in a place that I had no desire to live. Had I done that it would have screwed up my family and relationship. Instead I went to a T-4 and my family, relationship, and educational career are going fine. THE END


You make some good points. 
But statistically, if you are going to go to school outside the top 14 or 20 or whatever, your best chance for flexibility (or landing a job at all) is to go to the most well respected law school in the geographical area you want to work in.

Half of the students at T4s graduate in the bottom half of their class (groundbreaking idea right?)
If you don't have a full scholarship or a job lined up, then it would be better to avoid law school altogether than graduate in the bottom half of a T4.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: bigs5068 on February 17, 2010, 12:52:23 PM
I agree with you had I gotten into Santa Clara or USF that is where I would be. Golden Gate was the bay area school I got into and the Bay area is where I want to live and I want to be a lawyer so put all that together and that is where I ended up. Obviosly, the better you do and higher ranked the school the more options you will have. I just feel like people on this site talk about T-4's like they are evil institutions meant to deceive and steal everybody's money. Not everybody is smart enough to get into Harvard in high school a kid had a 3.2 and 1140 on his SAT should still go to college if he wants. Just because he doesn't get into UCLA and has to go to a smaller state school does not mean he isn't going to learn anything and I think that person should go to college.

Same argument for law school, however more money is on the line and it is 3 more years of your life. So you should certainly be aware of that no matter what school you go to. Before law school I worked as a paralegal for two years and enjoyed it and decided to take the LSAT and got a 155, which is not jaw droppiong, but was good enough to get me into law school.


All these horror stories people tell about T-4's apply anywhere. There is a worst student at Harvard, Standford, etc. I have a really good friend who just graduated from Hastings, she was in the bottom 75% and didn't pass the bar and is having trouble. Am I going to sit here and say Hastings is a terrible school, because one person had a bad experience. No that woudl be retarded, everybody from each and every school will have success and horror stories, law school is what you make of it, that is all what I am trying to convey to people consideirng law school
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: jollyrog on February 17, 2010, 07:54:03 PM
Prick, they dont grade on spelling at the bar. It ain't the third grade.

Who said anything about the bar? Granted, this is only an internet forum, but failing to catch words obviously left out, wrong word form usage, not to mention the spelling and punctuation, still tend to indicate how well one writes.

All I'm saying is that it's one pretty large factor that separates the T14 types from the rest of us.

Try using your rationale in LRW and see how that works out for you.

I'm going to a T3 or T4 myself, for cripes' sakes, but I know it's not Harvard.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: bigs5068 on February 17, 2010, 08:43:47 PM
Sorry my punctuation offends you so much I come on this website when I am on the train to and from school to kill time and I'm using my I-phone so my grammars not great. I was in the top 10% of my class and did fine in LRW thanks for the advice though. 

I completely agree that someone at a T-14 school is a better student and standardized test taker than you or me and that is why they are there. One of my best friends goes to Standford and he is brilliant and will more than likely be a better attorney than I will ever be. So I think we agree T-14 students are smarter than us. My whole point is that I don't think my T-4 is a cesspool and I imagine you don't feel your school is either.U

The reason I brought up the bar is that not everybody passes no matter what school they go to. Harvard does not have a 100% bar passage rate so someone there didn't pass and is probably having a hard time finding a job and is pissed off. So is Harvard a shady school bent on stealing everybody's money? I don't think so. My whole point was that you should go to the law school that works best for you and do not take posts titled 1L attrirtion rates Beg the ABA to do away with All these Cesspools seriously, because the OP themselves probably has not yet taken the bar or done anything significant in the legal world and therefore has no right to criticize other schools.

As a sidenote the reason for the high attrition rates at these schools is transfers they didn't fail out 25% of the class. 15% of last years 1L's at GGU transferred to Hastings, USF, Santa Clara or some other school at the end of the first year and they were not kicked out as the attrition rate percentages make you believe. The other 10% include people that quit law school and those who didn't put in the work.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: jollyrog on February 17, 2010, 09:07:03 PM
Sorry my punctuation offends you so much I come on this website when I am on the train to and from school to kill time and I'm using my I-phone so my grammars not great. I was in the top 10% of my class and did fine in LRW thanks for the advice though.  

I completely agree that someone at a T-14 school is a better student and standardized test taker than you or me and that is why they are there. One of my best friends goes to Standford and he is brilliant and will more than likely be a better attorney than I will ever be. So I think we agree T-14 students are smarter than us. My whole point is that I don't think my T-4 is a cesspool and I imagine you don't feel your school is either.U

The reason I brought up the bar is that not everybody passes no matter what school they go to. Harvard does not have a 100% bar passage rate so someone there didn't pass and is probably having a hard time finding a job and is pissed off. So is Harvard a shady school bent on stealing everybody's money? I don't think so. My whole point was that you should go to the law school that works best for you and do not take posts titled 1L attrirtion rates Beg the ABA to do away with All these Cesspools seriously, because the OP themselves probably has not yet taken the bar or done anything significant in the legal world and therefore has no right to criticize other schools.

As a sidenote the reason for the high attrition rates at these schools is transfers they didn't fail out 25% of the class. 15% of last years 1L's at GGU transferred to Hastings, USF, Santa Clara or some other school at the end of the first year and they were not kicked out as the attrition rate percentages make you believe. The other 10% include people that quit law school and those who didn't put in the work.

The LRW line wasn't directed at you, unless ; )- is your alter ego, and I'm not offended. The iphone explains quite a bit, but I just saw some humor in somebody defending T4 schools with a bunch of errors in the defense, nothing more. I wasn't busting your chops, but if I get called a prick, I'm going to return fire, fair enough?

IMO, so much of the USNWR rankings are self-perepetuating, that it stigmatizes SOME T3 & T4 schools. Then there are those that are truly rotten, but you're right, we agree that one can get a good legal education and have a nice career coming out of a lower-ranked school, provided you rock the place. It's no news to anybody here that graduating in the bottom 50% from GULC will put you ahead of somebody in the bottom 50% from Whittier. (Now, here come the flames from the Whittier people...)

Dude, you made a good case for T4s, and I agree with you. It just struck me as funny at the time. No harm intended. Good points here, as well.

Continued success to you.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: bigs5068 on February 18, 2010, 10:41:42 AM
Thanks for agreeing with me.

 I think the real cesspool is US News Rankings. Realistically, how do they determine between the 73rd and 104th ranked school?  USF for example was a T-3 last year and then all the sudden became 82 or something. What in gods name did they do to jump 30 spots in one year?  The year before being dropped to T-3 they were somewhere between 70 and 90, but appaernlty they did something so attoricous that it dropped them 30 spots.  What in gods named changed there so drastically between those two years to drop 30 stops and then come back immediatly? Bottom line is ABA means ABA and granted everyone will agree on the top schools Harvard, Yale, Standford etc. However, can you really distinguish between Mercer and Williamette does an employer really care that Williamette was ranked numer 113 while Mercer was 92 that is just stupid.  I don't even know what the rankings of either school are honestly and I don't think it matters.  Do you really think an employer is going to interview someone from Mercer and then Williamette and then open the U.S. News magazine and decide who to hire based on obscure rankings that distinguish between 70 and 102.  The reality is I am sure money is changing hands between schools and U.S. News and that is how you get your ranking boosted, which is a ridicluous and would be the defintion of a cesspool organization to me. The ABA specifically mentions on their website not to take the rankings seriously and I will trust what they say as opposed to some private magazine company, who is likely getting some type of compensation for putting people where they do.

The only way U.S News rankings would even make sense is if they went the NCAA route and ranked the top 25 schools, because then it would be an honor as imposed to an insult to lower schools. I think anyone will agree that determining between 88 and 109 does not make sense and does not matter.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: jollyrog on February 18, 2010, 10:43:31 PM
Thanks for agreeing with me.

 I think the real cesspool is US News Rankings. Realistically, how do they determine between the 73rd and 104th ranked school?  USF for example was a T-3 last year and then all the sudden became 82 or something. What in gods name did they do to jump 30 spots in one year?  The year before being dropped to T-3 they were somewhere between 70 and 90, but appaernlty they did something so attoricous that it dropped them 30 spots.  What in gods named changed there so drastically between those two years to drop 30 stops and then come back immediatly? Bottom line is ABA means ABA and granted everyone will agree on the top schools Harvard, Yale, Standford etc. However, can you really distinguish between Mercer and Williamette does an employer really care that Williamette was ranked numer 113 while Mercer was 92 that is just stupid.  I don't even know what the rankings of either school are honestly and I don't think it matters.  Do you really think an employer is going to interview someone from Mercer and then Williamette and then open the U.S. News magazine and decide who to hire based on obscure rankings that distinguish between 70 and 102.  The reality is I am sure money is changing hands between schools and U.S. News and that is how you get your ranking boosted, which is a ridicluous and would be the defintion of a cesspool organization to me. The ABA specifically mentions on their website not to take the rankings seriously and I will trust what they say as opposed to some private magazine company, who is likely getting some type of compensation for putting people where they do.

The only way U.S News rankings would even make sense is if they went the NCAA route and ranked the top 25 schools, because then it would be an honor as imposed to an insult to lower schools. I think anyone will agree that determining between 88 and 109 does not make sense and does not matter.

My biggest beefs with the rankings are that so much is subjective, and with Lexis and Westlaw, does the size of your library really matter that much?

As far as employers, exactly; 20 places in the rankings won't mean a thing. But, one lawyer I've known for about 20 years told me that if you go to a really low-ranked school, employers will assume that was the best you could get into. If that's the case, well, you do what you can. But we all know that all things being fairly equal, go to the best school you can. Would I go another $80K in debt than I will anyway to go to GULC? Hell, yes.

But then again, since I'm a Non-trad, I'm not a biglaw candidate, anyway, so T3 or T4 will probably work out.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: legalized on May 14, 2010, 02:30:09 PM
It is law school discussion I am not spending hours on my punctuation. I have a job for summer paying me pretty well, which is what I wanted after my first year of law school and I did it going to a T-4.  All half the people do on here is criticize lower ranked schools when they go to what the 83rd best school in U.S. news instead of the 114th really get over yourselves. Law school will work out if you put in the work and don't waste your time on law school discussion trashing other schools.  I am not trying to argue that I will have the same opportunities as a Harvard Grad, but T-4's are not cesspools there are smart people there and the professors went to Harvard or Yale and no matter what school you go to the rules and law are the same.  A tort is a tort whether you go to Harvard or Cooley.  Waste your time criticizing the punctuation of my two second rant if you want.   

I am just writing on this board to let people know the horrible things they hear about T-4's are not true. I almost made the worst mistake of my life by believing that people on this board said about T-4's being cesspools and going to a higher ranked school in a place that I had no desire to live. Had I done that it would have screwed up my family and relationship. Instead I went to a T-4 and my family, relationship, and educational career are going fine. THE END


You make some good points. 
But statistically, if you are going to go to school outside the top 14 or 20 or whatever, your best chance for flexibility (or landing a job at all) is to go to the most well respected law school in the geographical area you want to work in.

Half of the students at T4s graduate in the bottom half of their class (groundbreaking idea right?)
If you don't have a full scholarship or a job lined up, then it would be better to avoid law school altogether than graduate in the bottom half of a T4.

This is it for me basically. End of the day if I don't get a full scholarship somewhere, (or close to it if it's a school with great employment prospects ITE), I will go ahead and say to goodbye to lawyer dreams and get on the healthcare wagon.  I WANT to become a practicing lawyer, but I do not like being broke and in debt for dumb reasons, and I already have loans to repay from undergrad so I damn sure won't be racking up any loans for anything other than living expenses for further education. 

With or without the lawyer status I intend to get certified in something in healthcare anyway because it's always good to treat your skill set as an investment.  Just like the stock market, one should be invested in things that do well in an up economy AND invested in things that do well in a down economy...diversified!

Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: bigs5068 on May 14, 2010, 04:07:10 PM
Honestly in the health care education you think you will not rack up debt either? I don't know the numbers of what you are trying to do, but in Health care or any other certification it is expensive. Law School is up there price wise as is an M.D. or nursing maybe you are trying to do something other than that I am not a medical expert, but education is expensive and a risk no matter what type of certificaiton you get.

 Also there are elite schools in every profession and Harvard Grads and Ivy league students are going to have a benefit over you in the health care industry or the legal world. Harvard and Yale have more than just law school and they hand out degrees in everything.

You have already said you racked up debt in undergrad and I imagine it is difficult to find a job with a bachleor's and it will be difficult with a J.D., M.D., Clincial Psychology whatever you have, because people don't hand out jobs.  Education you are paying to be there and in the real world they are paying you so it is a lot more stringent just something to consider.

If you want to be in the healthcare field by all means go for maybe it will work out better than the law, but I don't think any field has a guaranteed money or job prospects. 

Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 14, 2010, 04:47:23 PM
70% pass rate even if the "worst" lawschools, hell that means you show up, you breath, you pass.

Hell, how many other trades can claim the same?
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: legalized on May 16, 2010, 09:43:38 AM
Honestly in the health care education you think you will not rack up debt either? I don't know the numbers of what you are trying to do, but in Health care or any other certification it is expensive. Law School is up there price wise as is an M.D. or nursing maybe you are trying to do something other than that I am not a medical expert, but education is expensive and a risk no matter what type of certificaiton you get.

 Also there are elite schools in every profession and Harvard Grads and Ivy league students are going to have a benefit over you in the health care industry or the legal world. Harvard and Yale have more than just law school and they hand out degrees in everything.

You have already said you racked up debt in undergrad and I imagine it is difficult to find a job with a bachleor's and it will be difficult with a J.D., M.D., Clincial Psychology whatever you have, because people don't hand out jobs.  Education you are paying to be there and in the real world they are paying you so it is a lot more stringent just something to consider.

If you want to be in the healthcare field by all means go for maybe it will work out better than the law, but I don't think any field has a guaranteed money or job prospects.

No I don't want to be in the healthcare field or I'd be in it.  I believe in diversifying my basket of talents because if education is an investment, it makes sense to treat it to the same commonsense investment rules I learned in my business undergrad.

And the problem with people is they can't humble themselves when covering their economic bases.  I WANT to be a lawyer, and I see the SENSE in having a CERTIFICATION (not a whole degree program) in a field that is fast growing and facing a shortage.

You seem to think I am talking about getting a JD and an MD or nursing degree as well.  No sir I meant something as simple as the JD and a CNA certification.  CNA takes a month if you have a few hundred bucks or a government program sponsorship for the course, includes what is basically an apprenticeship, and is in demand, I can see for myself even outside the hospital people want someone with basic certifications to help care for their old relatives at home or what have you.

In this day and age putting all your eggs in one basket is not smart, but neither is wasting the one and limited life you have to live pursuing every hot degree under the sun.

Someone else might want to hedge their bets with a JD and a computer tech or other certification, or have success as a blogger or SOMETHING else outside the field of law.  It doesn't change their desire to be a lawyer but it can often mean the difference between always having a quick stable way to earn some money and being one of these JDs who have NO game plan for a long-haul job search.  If you are busy looking for work as a lawyer you still have to eat, and can't use the JD to do so until you get the job that requires one.  But if you have a certification in something else it can provide a source of income from another field.

People, everybody better have a side hustle these days, aka diversified investments of their time and talents, because as we can see, ITE not even partners are safe from the axe, and not everyone is like me and will research solo practice ahead of time to actually be able to do it as a viable alternative...and if you haven't passed the bar yet you can't do that and still need to eat.

You are rushing to defend and I am not even attacking, I am simply saying people who want to diversify to keep their pockets safe are well advised to do so, savvy investors do it every day.  People who can't decide between two twin time drains as all-consuming ways of making money though, don't really know what they want and need to do more specific self-evaluation to see what it is they really want to do.  There is a difference.

And, you need to stop getting militant on every post and jumping to shoot down every other option as having the same risks and rewards as law.  You are over-generalizing.  Healthcare has different risks and rewards, and more to the point, different BARRIERS TO ENTRY and SKILL SET requirements.  Not everybody has the patience or humbleness or work ethic to clean some old person's sh*t or whatever to make ends meet, so they can't jump up and make the same decisions as me to keep life rolling while I pursue my dreams.

My undergrad degree can also help me get a job, but not as fast as a CNA can find one because it doesn't take multiple interviews over a few months to get a simple job, and quite frankly, everybody these days thinks they are too good to do some manual labor or get their hands dirty.  I don't particularly relish the thought either, but I have more at stake than just my own wants, and know how to make some sacrifices for the greater good.  Plus, I am not a fan of being broke, and some people, a lot actually, apparently rather be broke than either re-evaluate or increase their options. If what you are doing or what you already have isn't working, don't keep doing it or relying on it, try something new.  And if the skill set or experience level you have is not one employers in the current market are willing to pay for...either decrease your pay expectations, change or increase your skill set, or both.  Or if it's an option move to where what you bring to the table already is valued enough for you to actually live off it. 

Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: legalized on May 16, 2010, 10:02:27 AM
Honestly in the health care education you think you will not rack up debt either? I don't know the numbers of what you are trying to do, but in Health care or any other certification it is expensive. Law School is up there price wise as is an M.D. or nursing maybe you are trying to do something other than that I am not a medical expert, but education is expensive and a risk no matter what type of certificaiton you get.

 Also there are elite schools in every profession and Harvard Grads and Ivy league students are going to have a benefit over you in the health care industry or the legal world. Harvard and Yale have more than just law school and they hand out degrees in everything.

You have already said you racked up debt in undergrad and I imagine it is difficult to find a job with a bachleor's and it will be difficult with a J.D., M.D., Clincial Psychology whatever you have, because people don't hand out jobs.  Education you are paying to be there and in the real world they are paying you so it is a lot more stringent just something to consider.

If you want to be in the healthcare field by all means go for maybe it will work out better than the law, but I don't think any field has a guaranteed money or job prospects.

Oh and my previous response was based on the last paragraph in my post before that.

Far as saying goodbye to the law if my plans cannot happen without significant debt at a non-T-10 (or T-5) law school...you cannot judge my decisions on debt without knowing my life.  If you feel it's worth it to pay full price for a low-prestige school, do it and be happy.  I cannot afford 30,000 a year ANYWHERE. Period.  I will do nursing if I can't go to law school.  And it will not be what i first wanted to do, but there are places paying for people to go to nursing school, not a scholarship but a payment to anyone who gets accepted.  And nursing school even on full out loans costs a hell of a lot less then a JD 9 times out of ten, so what are you talking about "it's just as expensive"? 

You are not researching you are just speaking in defense of your personal decisions in every thread where these things come up, and that's fine, you bring up good points to consider, but for my personal purposes if I don't get a significant scholarship to somewhere I can actually attend given MY life, I WILL NOT BE GOING.  Maybe if more folks made the hard decisions there would not be such a glut of daydreamers bawling on the internet now.

I have no problem attending ANY tier of school.  Just not at full price.  I have decent PT scores, excellent writing, research, and analytical skills, and know exactly what I want to do with my law degree.  I also know my situation and am not about to think what worked for you will work for me.  I am not one of those people that thinks a non-T-14 is a waste of time, but ANY school that costs me more than half the maximum the federal government will give me each year is not worth it for me.  FOR ME.

Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 16, 2010, 11:48:54 AM
Mabey it feels "militant" to you because it's right.

Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 16, 2010, 11:52:42 AM
To the OP who mentioned other career options, they tend to have MUCH,MUCH, WORSE outlooks, even in a good economy.

Both total salary wise and odds of getting fulltime permenant work.

The ones requiring gradschool tend to cost about the same as well.

Don't like it, join the picket line outside a GM plant, or work as a boathand near the BP oil spill.......MUCH better there.  :-X
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: the white rabbit on May 16, 2010, 01:34:04 PM
Mabey it feels "militant" to you because it's right.

I think it's more likely because bigs always writes like he's shouting.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 16, 2010, 01:37:20 PM
mabey dumb people piss him off.  :P
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: the white rabbit on May 16, 2010, 01:44:40 PM
mabey dumb people piss him off.  :P

So then is he being militant or does it just seem that way?  Make up your mind!
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 16, 2010, 01:46:16 PM
just because you are too simple to understand the world dosn't make the world imaginary.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: the white rabbit on May 16, 2010, 01:49:00 PM
just because you are too simple to understand the world dosn't make the world imaginary.

Don't blame your indecisiveness on my simplicity.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 16, 2010, 01:53:35 PM
if you dont like the answer, change the question..... ::)
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: the white rabbit on May 16, 2010, 01:56:52 PM
if you dont like the answer, change the question..... ::)

I like it when you give out tips on the art of evasion.  It's quite useful you know.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: bigs5068 on May 19, 2010, 11:43:16 PM
The one poster talking about side hustles etc.  made some good points like I said I didn't understand all the details of financing  in whatever health field he is going into. If it takes a month to get that CN certificate and it only costs a few hundred bucks it sounds like a great plan. He is 100% right it is always good to have a side hustle without question. If you have a J.D. with some other tangible skill whether it be language or computer science I think it makes you a lot more marketable.

He is absolutely right 30,000 is an outrageous amount of money to pay for law school, but that is the way it is and I don't think it has ever been cheap. However, there are the CBA schools which offer a ridiculously cheap option or FIU, South Dakota, or North Dakota, CUNY, and maybe a few others that are nowhere near 30,000 between 6,000-12,000 a year which is a lot more reasonable. Had S.F. had an ABA school that offered the cheap tuition I would have gone there.  I know JFK is here, but I want an ABA approved school, because I may at some point want to leave California. However, in regards to your complaints about costs there are CBA schools and those 4 state schools which are a lot more reasonably priced if you really want to be a lawyer.

I never try to be militant maybe I came across that way and it seems you have thought outside the legal bubble but even nursing school is quite expensive or so I thought and I don't believe it is that much safer of a profession than the legal field. I imagine there are a lot of employed nurses and I imagine there are nurses looking for work just like any other profession.  People get the ax in healthcare industries etc I imagine, but again I have no idea about how hospitals run etc. 

All I was saying if you want to be a lawyer then you should go to law school, but if money is your main concern a J.D. is not the best bet and it sounds like you are more concerned with money than the profession you enter into which is completely fine.  In my opinion I would rather do something I like and struggle financially than do something I dislike or am indifferent about and have money, but that is just me and money is certainly is nice to have.  Your job is going to last a lifetime and nursing, J.D., M.B.A, whatever you choose to do you will be working in that field for a LONG time your entire working life which will probably be 30 to 40 years so I personally think it is best to choose a path you will enjoy the most.  Law school is ridiculously expensive and it really shouldn't charge as much as they do, but I want to be a lawyer so I have to deal with the outrageous price tag.   

Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: legalized on May 21, 2010, 05:29:06 PM
The one poster talking about side hustles etc.  made some good points like I said I didn't understand all the details of financing  in whatever health field he is going into. If it takes a month to get that CN certificate and it only costs a few hundred bucks it sounds like a great plan. He is 100% right it is always good to have a side hustle without question. If you have a J.D. with some other tangible skill whether it be language or computer science I think it makes you a lot more marketable.

He is absolutely right 30,000 is an outrageous amount of money to pay for law school, but that is the way it is and I don't think it has ever been cheap. However, there are the CBA schools which offer a ridiculously cheap option or FIU, South Dakota, or North Dakota, CUNY, and maybe a few others that are nowhere near 30,000 between 6,000-12,000 a year which is a lot more reasonable. Had S.F. had an ABA school that offered the cheap tuition I would have gone there.  I know JFK is here, but I want an ABA approved school, because I may at some point want to leave California. However, in regards to your complaints about costs there are CBA schools and those 4 state schools which are a lot more reasonably priced if you really want to be a lawyer.

I never try to be militant maybe I came across that way and it seems you have thought outside the legal bubble but even nursing school is quite expensive or so I thought and I don't believe it is that much safer of a profession than the legal field. I imagine there are a lot of employed nurses and I imagine there are nurses looking for work just like any other profession.  People get the ax in healthcare industries etc I imagine, but again I have no idea about how hospitals run etc. 

All I was saying if you want to be a lawyer then you should go to law school, but if money is your main concern a J.D. is not the best bet and it sounds like you are more concerned with money than the profession you enter into which is completely fine.  In my opinion I would rather do something I like and struggle financially than do something I dislike or am indifferent about and have money, but that is just me and money is certainly is nice to have.  Your job is going to last a lifetime and nursing, J.D., M.B.A, whatever you choose to do you will be working in that field for a LONG time your entire working life which will probably be 30 to 40 years so I personally think it is best to choose a path you will enjoy the most.  Law school is ridiculously expensive and it really shouldn't charge as much as they do, but I want to be a lawyer so I have to deal with the outrageous price tag.

I understand your points.

Some cosmetic adjustments:

"He" is a "she"...lol I'll forgive you this time.

I'm sorry it sounds like I am in for the money.  Money is, however, a legitimate concern for anyone who has ever experienced truly not having ANY, like I have.  My reasons for doing law have zero to do with money, cause I actually decided to go for it BECAUSE of the state of things: If times are so hard across the board, I might as well be having a hard time doing what I REALLY want to do with my life, and not having any regrets about it!

That said, I am not dumb enough to chase my dream in an impossible way.  I research a lot, as you can tell, and while I recognize the pros of each field, I recognize the cons.  But it's not shallow for someone to say if they can't afford to attend law school in the areas in which they are willing to live and work, they won't go.  People who don't have money HAVE to be concerned about money, it's disingenuous (and downright dumb of them) to pretend otherwise.

You are right though that should not be the ONLY reason someone considers a field.  They also need to consider what the downsides are to any field with a ashortage (the word shortage should be a big hint, but it seems to make people think more that it's automatically easier)...and whether they actually have the innate talents required.

Those last two people don't even bother thinking of after they have established the pay and the availability of jobs.  Just because people CAN get a loan and go study something doesn't mean they SHOULD.

People would be surprised to see the schools I find when I search the ABA guides that have an attrition rate less than 5% and a bar passage rate 90% or better.  Some of them are schools that get laughed at.

Which reinforces what you say about people not thinking T14 = God incarnate and what I say that people need to stop being sheep-like and put their research and analytical skills to use from now.  Maybe we should consider that the folks with 170s who got in somewhere and got duped due to lack of research are not quite so bright as the LSATs led them to believe. lol
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: bigs5068 on May 22, 2010, 09:20:30 AM
I never said it was shallow to chase money. I don't have any myself and the debt I have accumulated even with a scholarship is scary.  I think law school is a massive risk and there are about 327 better ways to make money.  I just really enjoy the law and want to be lawyer and worked some crapp** jobs after college, but then I started working in law firms and I liked it a lot, more than any other job I have ever had and I have probably had 8 or 9 jobs in different fields in undergrad and for a year or so after college, but working in law firms I really liked so that is why I am in law school.
 
I really think if you go to law school, because you don't know what else to do or are simply going, because you like Law & Order you are probably not going to be happy.  I really think anybody considering law school should work as a paralegal for a year or two and if possible get a cheap paralegal certificate. This way you will know if it is something you even want to do and having some legal experience before going to law school is huge in my opinion, because in each interview I have gotten they were impressed that I had experience doing actual legal work. This is only based on my limited experience, but I have not gotten a job I interviewed for the summer and I think it has a lot to do with having legal experience.  You never know why someone chooses to hire you over somebody else, but that is what I think the reason is.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: legalized on May 22, 2010, 10:48:59 AM
I never said it was shallow to chase money. I don't have any myself and the debt I have accumulated even with a scholarship is scary.  I think law school is a massive risk and there are about 327 better ways to make money.  I just really enjoy the law and want to be lawyer and worked some crapp** jobs after college, but then I started working in law firms and I liked it a lot, more than any other job I have ever had and I have probably had 8 or 9 jobs in different fields in undergrad and for a year or so after college, but working in law firms I really liked so that is why I am in law school.
 
I really think if you go to law school, because you don't know what else to do or are simply going, because you like Law & Order you are probably not going to be happy.  I really think anybody considering law school should work as a paralegal for a year or two and if possible get a cheap paralegal certificate. This way you will know if it is something you even want to do and having some legal experience before going to law school is huge in my opinion, because in each interview I have gotten they were impressed that I had experience doing actual legal work. This is only based on my limited experience, but I have not gotten a job I interviewed for the summer and I think it has a lot to do with having legal experience.  You never know why someone chooses to hire you over somebody else, but that is what I think the reason is.

If you can think of 327, or even 27, better uses of your time and money than law school, you maybe should be doing one of those than this. lol

I have read law schools do NOT like people with "pre-law" majors or other legal education prior to the JD.

People can just volunteer to shadow someone in a field of law they are interested in for a week or a month to see if they like it. No need to waste years of one's life playing house.  People only have one life to live, they have to take a little less time than that to be decisive and mature about what they are doing with it.  Two years are not promised to anyone.   Researching the pros and cons of whatever you are interested in on the net and from the people in the trenches now cuts all that time wasting by 2/3.

IMO of course.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: bigs5068 on May 22, 2010, 12:54:06 PM
I simply said money, I really enjoy law school a lot if I won the lottery I would probably still be doing it.  You don't have to wait two years etc, I don't think schools really care much what you did before law school. All they care about his UGPA and LSAT and maybe personal statement etc makes up no more than 5% of your admissions decision. 

I think it is good to work in a law firm and just know what you are getting into, my first year of law school would not expose to anything about lawyers do on a day to day basis and I think you should work in it for a year to see if you would enjoy it. If you are going to commit 100k and 3 years of your life, it might be worth spending a year of time working in the environment. Obviously, you don't have to and plenty of people don't I just think it helps and a lot of people complain when they actually go into their 1L or 2L job and realize law school is not very similar to go to law school. Again that is just my opinion, maybe some people think law school is complete preparation and I am only a 1L so I imagine there is a lot more to learn.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: legalized on May 23, 2010, 07:15:36 AM
I simply said money, I really enjoy law school a lot if I won the lottery I would probably still be doing it.  You don't have to wait two years etc, I don't think schools really care much what you did before law school. All they care about his UGPA and LSAT and maybe personal statement etc makes up no more than 5% of your admissions decision. 

I think it is good to work in a law firm and just know what you are getting into, my first year of law school would not expose to anything about lawyers do on a day to day basis and I think you should work in it for a year to see if you would enjoy it. If you are going to commit 100k and 3 years of your life, it might be worth spending a year of time working in the environment. Obviously, you don't have to and plenty of people don't I just think it helps and a lot of people complain when they actually go into their 1L or 2L job and realize law school is not very similar to go to law school. Again that is just my opinion, maybe some people think law school is complete preparation and I am only a 1L so I imagine there is a lot more to learn.

Yes they do love work experience in the field of law...it's the education part I was addressing.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 23, 2010, 08:56:49 AM
so cooley is almost HALF the attrition rates of the ones on top of the list and yet people are still dumb enough to claim we're somehow the "worst".....yeah.... ::)

From Paul L. Caron, TaxProf Blog:

LawSchoolNumbers.com ranks the 195 law schools by 1L attrition rates.  (The ABA Section on Legal Education publishes aggregate attrition rates, and each school's attrition rate is available on its official ABA data sheet.)  Here are the 25 law schools with the highest attrition rates according to LawSchoolNumbers.com, along with the school's 2009 U.S. News overall ranking:

   1. Whittier (51.5% 1L attrition, #161 in U.S. News)
   2. Touro (37.4%, #171)
   3. Golden Gate (36.9%, #174)
   4. Western State (32.6%, not ranked)
   5. Jones School of Law (32.3%, not ranked)
   6. Widener (30.5%, #179)
   7. St. Thomas University (28.5%, #174)
   8. Barry (27.6%, #181)
   9. Liberty (27.1%, not ranked)
  10. Thomas M Cooley (26.0%, #181)
  11. Florida Coastal (23.7%, #171)
  12. California Western (23.6%, #156)
  13. Valparaiso (23.4%, #143)
  14. Florida International (23.3%, #153)
  15. Capital (22.8%, #161)
  16. Louisville (22.5%, #100)
  17. North Carolina Central (22.1%, #168)
  18. Detroit Mercy (21.9%, $163)
  19. Nova Southeastern (21.8%, #158)
  20. Oklahoma City (21.0%, $168)
  21. Willamette (21.0%, #137)
  22. Western New England (20.7%, #171)
  23. Northern Kentucky (20.2%, #156)
  24. University of The District of Columbia (20.0%, #181)
  25. Franklin Pierce (19.9%, #131)

With the economy and the over over abundance of law schools and graduates, how in good conscious can the ABA justify keeping these school accredited.  They are all abominations.  And Louisville.... SHAME ON YOU!
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: bigs5068 on May 23, 2010, 09:24:46 AM
Well the academic attrition rate is what matters and the information is outdated at least as far as GGU goes, because it is at 24% and 12% of that 24% includes transfer to higher ranked schools.

If a school had a 20% or more academic attrition rate I think the ABA would step in. You really need to recognize the difference between academic and other reasons on LSAC for attrition, because they are very different reasons. The other category for the most part includes transfer students that went to higher ranked schools and did very well in their first year so those are not sad cases. The other also probably includes people that dropped out because they don't like the law and maybe some people quit when they don't perform as well as they wanted to. One guy quit after first semester in a different, because he had a 2.8, which put him somewhere around the middle of the pack. He was convinced the entire semester he would be in the top 10%, but shockingly enough he wasn't because everybody in law school thinks that and it has a 10% chance of happening.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: legalized on May 23, 2010, 01:21:10 PM
so cooley is almost HALF the attrition rates of the ones on top of the list and yet people are still dumb enough to claim we're somehow the "worst".....yeah.... ::)

From Paul L. Caron, TaxProf Blog:

LawSchoolNumbers.com ranks the 195 law schools by 1L attrition rates.  (The ABA Section on Legal Education publishes aggregate attrition rates, and each school's attrition rate is available on its official ABA data sheet.)  Here are the 25 law schools with the highest attrition rates according to LawSchoolNumbers.com, along with the school's 2009 U.S. News overall ranking:

   1. Whittier (51.5% 1L attrition, #161 in U.S. News)
   2. Touro (37.4%, #171)
   3. Golden Gate (36.9%, #174)
   4. Western State (32.6%, not ranked)
   5. Jones School of Law (32.3%, not ranked)
   6. Widener (30.5%, #179)
   7. St. Thomas University (28.5%, #174)
   8. Barry (27.6%, #181)
   9. Liberty (27.1%, not ranked)
  10. Thomas M Cooley (26.0%, #181)
  11. Florida Coastal (23.7%, #171)
  12. California Western (23.6%, #156)
  13. Valparaiso (23.4%, #143)
  14. Florida International (23.3%, #153)
  15. Capital (22.8%, #161)
  16. Louisville (22.5%, #100)
  17. North Carolina Central (22.1%, #168)
  18. Detroit Mercy (21.9%, $163)
  19. Nova Southeastern (21.8%, #158)
  20. Oklahoma City (21.0%, $168)
  21. Willamette (21.0%, #137)
  22. Western New England (20.7%, #171)
  23. Northern Kentucky (20.2%, #156)
  24. University of The District of Columbia (20.0%, #181)
  25. Franklin Pierce (19.9%, #131)

With the economy and the over over abundance of law schools and graduates, how in good conscious can the ABA justify keeping these school accredited.  They are all abominations.  And Louisville.... SHAME ON YOU!

Honestly, at the end of the day, even if the school is completely unaccredited, if it's working for you, don't worry about what else is going on with it.  Somebody from Whittier is enjoying themselves there.

Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 23, 2010, 01:24:25 PM
He had a 2.8 and quit?  ???  Better to be middle lawyer than top paralegal, but whatever I guess.
Did he at least transfer into an MBA or something where his credits would count, or did he just say "daddy paid for it/uncle same and I dont plan to pay it back/ so I dont care....." How can someone justify a semester of lawschool and then quit without failing out? :P

Well the academic attrition rate is what matters and the information is outdated at least as far as GGU goes, because it is at 24% and 12% of that 24% includes transfer to higher ranked schools.

If a school had a 20% or more academic attrition rate I think the ABA would step in. You really need to recognize the difference between academic and other reasons on LSAC for attrition, because they are very different reasons. The other category for the most part includes transfer students that went to higher ranked schools and did very well in their first year so those are not sad cases. The other also probably includes people that dropped out because they don't like the law and maybe some people quit when they don't perform as well as they wanted to. One guy quit after first semester in a different, because he had a 2.8, which put him somewhere around the middle of the pack. He was convinced the entire semester he would be in the top 10%, but shockingly enough he wasn't because everybody in law school thinks that and it has a 10% chance of happening.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: bigs5068 on May 24, 2010, 08:43:49 AM
Yea some people think they are really special, I know you need to keep a 3.0 to keep your scholarship, so maybe he had a scholarship and didn't want to spend the money for a J.D. that would make the most sense, but it is cumulative 3.0 for the year and it is guaranteed for one year so I think he should have stayed the whole year if it was free and tried to keep a 3.0, but people have their reasons.  He was not in my section, but he wasn't there 2nd semester and someone told me he got a 2.8 and quit. Maybe it was personal issues I barely knew the guy I just remembered it, because I thought it was weird that you would quit with a 2.8, which puts you around the middle of the pack.   
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: cooleylawstudent on May 24, 2010, 08:48:32 AM
I have already noticed people who claim they'll ace everything get a D(some for the first time,or so they claim, in their entire lives) Its odd since they dont seem to blame themselves. They blame the teachers for teaching it their way(although everyone else seemed to pick it up just fine) and even others for "blowing their curve"(which is ironic since if they are "so great" how could we "lesser" people "blow their curve" ??? )  ::)

Yea some people think they are really special, I know you need to keep a 3.0 to keep your scholarship, so maybe he had a scholarship and didn't want to spend the money for a J.D. that would make the most sense, but it is cumulative 3.0 for the year and it is guaranteed for one year so I think he should have stayed the whole year if it was free and tried to keep a 3.0, but people have their reasons.  He was not in my section, but he wasn't there 2nd semester and someone told me he got a 2.8 and quit. Maybe it was personal issues I barely knew the guy I just remembered it, because I thought it was weird that you would quit with a 2.8, which puts you around the middle of the pack.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: sonofapickle on May 24, 2010, 10:18:22 AM
I simply said money, I really enjoy law school a lot if I won the lottery I would probably still be doing it.  You don't have to wait two years etc, I don't think schools really care much what you did before law school. All they care about his UGPA and LSAT and maybe personal statement etc makes up no more than 5% of your admissions decision. 

I think it is good to work in a law firm and just know what you are getting into, my first year of law school would not expose to anything about lawyers do on a day to day basis and I think you should work in it for a year to see if you would enjoy it. If you are going to commit 100k and 3 years of your life, it might be worth spending a year of time working in the environment. Obviously, you don't have to and plenty of people don't I just think it helps and a lot of people complain when they actually go into their 1L or 2L job and realize law school is not very similar to go to law school. Again that is just my opinion, maybe some people think law school is complete preparation and I am only a 1L so I imagine there is a lot more to learn.

Yes they do love work experience in the field of law...it's the education part I was addressing.

I have more experience than most people on this board and not even in law school yet. I could say, I have 8 years worth of experience as I was being mentored and volunteering at various places that pertaining to law for 5 years, add 3 more years, and that would be 8 years of work experience. People say experience doesn't mean anything, but I will be picked over any other intern while in law school because of my background. I am well versed in the sciences and could possibly intern at an IP firm, well versed in securities as I have passed the series 7 and will have a degree in finance (corporate law), took some psych classes back in high school and college for liberal arts requirements (criminal law), know 3 languages (English included).
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: bigs5068 on May 24, 2010, 12:50:06 PM
and so do most people in law school. How f'ing dumb are you?  Believe or not at these Ivy League schools you want to go and even at my tier 4 people know 3 languages and have molecular biology degrees everybody is smart in law school. I made this comparision already in another thread, but I am 6'9 which is huge in normal life, but not in the basketball world it is normal.

All your academic accomplishments etc are impressive to Joe Schmo, but in law school everybody will have impressive backgrounds and nobody will care about what you did in the past or how smart you tell everybody you are.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: bigs5068 on May 24, 2010, 01:33:08 PM
Also SonofPickle read this thread from some other people who did well on practice LSAT's you will some people did fine others had a significant drop. What will happen to you? Who knows until you nut up and take the actual test.

http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/studying-for-the-lsat/how-much-did-your-lsat-score-drop-from-your-highest-practice-score/
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: sonofapickle on May 24, 2010, 01:59:17 PM
Are you stupid? Most students in law school do not have a series 7 license, which means they are licensed to be a broker-dealer, and know the securities industry. Most students do not have an uncle who is a successful lawyer who attended a top 5, and a mentor who also a damn good lawyer, most people have not been in the legal world (I mean within it, from courts to talking with mentors and being taught on various legal practices) while in their teens, and most people in law school do not fluently speak German, English, and have near fluency (dialects are different in certain countries) in Spanish. Most students haven't studied business in Germany and Spain, most students do not triple major.

I have checked the stats and can say for sure, most students have not made accomplishments like I have and being only 19, that is significant. Not only that, most students have not finished prerequisites for Medical School and had near a 4.0 through undergrad. You say that is not special, but from a standpoint of me being so young, and having finished in the top 2 in all of my high school, and taking AP classes, and a PSEO student since the 9th grade, I can say for sure most people in law school have not made such accomplishments. How the hell do you figure why I am finishing college so early? I have been in college since the 9th grade but also wanted a High School career, so PSEO was the best option for me.

As for that thread? Lol, you are stupid. Most people in that thread did not drop more than 10 points. The average did not drop more than 4.5 points. You only had the fluctuating scores from what I viewed. That does not say much and is not to contest what I have been stating. If you check some other threads, and even obst can vouch for me, that I did state, "my score will drop but not dramatically." You don't get that because you are too stupid to even understand simple logic. If I consecutively score in the high 170's each time I take the test, then my score will not be below 168. The high 170's being 176 and so on.

Also, you have to factor in how those people were studying... One guy mentioned he took breaks between taking the test, well of course if you do that, you will be re-energized as your brain had time to recuperate. All in all, you fail to understand that those people applied different practice methods and their actual scores reflected that. One person commented that his practice tests, which were in the high 70's, did not drop from his actual test. He obviously studied the way he should have and not opted to take frequent breaks. I applaud your effort though, bigs, I very much do, but like obst, you will be schooled.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: bigs5068 on May 24, 2010, 05:16:25 PM
Well I know Mandarin and English lived and worked in China, was a professional basketball player, got 4 letters of recommendation from lawyers that actually PAID me to work them and I accomplished all that at 25. I saw numerous trials from beginning to end working and I was PAID to be there and it was not merely a  courtesy and all that got me into what you consider HORRENDOUS ATROCIOUS School according to your standards so what do you think the people at Harvard did?

You keep mentioning your uncle being a lawyer that has nothing to with you, whatever your family did and does means jack it is completley irrelevant to you and yes a lot of people even at my measly tier 4 according to you have series 7 licenses and long successful careers before going to law school. 

You are clearly 19 and have no idea what you are talking about and as usual you are talking out of your a##, because you have not done anything that relates at all to law school.

 
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: sonofapickle on May 24, 2010, 06:35:31 PM
I know for a fact some students at Harvard did nothing close to what I have done and merely got good grades and a great score on the LSAT. They still got in with just that. I am doing the things I have listed because I have many interests and wish to apply them all to the law. It also differentiates me from other students. I couldn't care less about what you have accomplished.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: bigs5068 on May 24, 2010, 10:19:51 PM
Exactly my point you don't care what I accomplished and I don't care what you accomplished. Just like nobody in law school will care what you accomplished, that was my point. 
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Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: Denny Shore on August 18, 2010, 02:52:28 PM
Since these attrition rates likely include transfers, I don't get the issue. 
Some people aren't meant for law school, yet they still want to give it a try.  Why not let them?  It's their money and limiting access to an education only makes it harder for people who are smart enough but maybe didn't work hard enough in undergrad.  If a student goes to, as an example, Cooley because that's the only school that will take them, then after 1L transfers to a much better school, didn't Cooley do their job?  That guy would be counted in the attrition rates...
All I'm saying is that it isn't always a bad thing to "dumb tax" certain things.  We teach our kids that they can do anything they want to if they apply themselves, so we shouldn't be lying to them on account of some attrition rates that don't necessarily reflect academic dismissals only.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: bigs5068 on August 18, 2010, 05:42:53 PM
There should be some regulation, but if someone graduates from college with around a 3.0, scores a 150 or so on the LSAT, can write a coherent personal statement, and get a few letters of recommendation then they should have a chance at law school. Honestly, the system is not to bad as it currently is, but LSAC listing attrition rates without indicating that a number of the attrition is based on transfers seems wrong to me.  I don't know if any ABA school has more than 20% academic attrition and if a school does then there is a problem. However, at almost every school including tier 4's it seems to be around 10% attrition for academic reasons. Honestly, after going through the first year at a tier 4 the majority of people that failed out truly did not put in sufficient work. They had the ability to do well, but the ones I know failed out did not seem to put an adequate effort in. I am sure there are some exceptions to that, but most of the academic dismissals just did not put the work in plain and simple. If you want to be a lawyer then you need to be able to get down to business and focus a little bit. It is not rocket science and it can be done, but it takes time and effort to succeed in law school.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: Denny Shore on August 19, 2010, 09:55:12 AM
There should be some regulation, but if someone graduates from college with around a 3.0, scores a 150 or so on the LSAT, can write a coherent personal statement, and get a few letters of recommendation then they should have a chance at law school. Honestly, the system is not to bad as it currently is, but LSAC listing attrition rates without indicating that a number of the attrition is based on transfers seems wrong to me.  I don't know if any ABA school has more than 20% academic attrition and if a school does then there is a problem. However, at almost every school including tier 4's it seems to be around 10% attrition for academic reasons. Honestly, after going through the first year at a tier 4 the majority of people that failed out truly did not put in sufficient work. They had the ability to do well, but the ones I know failed out did not seem to put an adequate effort in. I am sure there are some exceptions to that, but most of the academic dismissals just did not put the work in plain and simple. If you want to be a lawyer then you need to be able to get down to business and focus a little bit. It is not rocket science and it can be done, but it takes time and effort to succeed in law school.

A great point.  I was academically dismissed after one semester, but it was do to being willfully untreated for my ADHD.  When I left, I went to my doctor and, after trying several different medications, got on treatment that is extremely effective.  I was readmitted and did very well.  2L starts Monday.
Most of the students who were academically dismissed fell into that situation because they treated law school like college, tried to cram, blew off classes, didn't participate in classes, or thought they were smarter than everyone else.  At least one student talked a great game - how smart he was, how he was on the dean's list in college, how he understood everything....  It was the same guy who would find our little study group during finals prep to ask us questions that made us all slap our foreheads (i.e. - What is consideration in a K between A and B when A offers to sell his car to B for $5000? and What's the difference between a unilateral contract and a bilateral contract).  He was also infamous for raising his hand to provide his insight on a case, only to make a fool of himself by summarizing for the class what everyone else had said and sitting next to smart students, reading off of their laptops, asking them a question, then raising his hand to give the professor an answer.  Guys like him don't belong and, as a result, he was dismissed.
The problem with reading a generalized attrition number and then drawing a conclusion is that it doesn't take into account the number of transfers out.  As we all know, students usually transfer out of schools because they were accepted to a better school.  This is not indicative of a problem with the lower ranked school.  If anything, it speaks to the quality of their education (under the theory that if their program was terrible, there would be no way a higher ranked school would accept a transfer student, no matter how good the transcript read).
The John Marshall Law School in Chicago academically dismisses more students every year than every other law school in Illinois combined.  1/5th of all of the sitting judges in Illinois attended JMLS.  Those two facts seem to be contradictory, yet are illustrative of the fact that despite its reduced applicant requirements and reprehensible grading curve policy, they still provide a decent education.
We appear, in this country, to be outpacing demand for attorneys.  However, it may be informative to understand that a good portion of graduating JD's will never practice law.  Another chunk will practice law, but never be successful.  Many, however, will find their niche and fill a need.  My personal theory is that if you want to graduate fewer JD's, the key isn't to limit access to law schools or limit the number of law schools.  Instead, we need fewer stupid people.  Since my observation is that there are more and more morons doing stupid things, the need for lawyers continues to grow.  We haven't hit critical mass yet and we are nowhere near the tipping point, so I don't worry that future attorneys won't be able to find work.  It may take some time, but lawyers are still in demand.
Title: Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
Post by: nocreeper on February 29, 2012, 08:40:53 PM
hey everyone I am starting a website to help the academically dismissed.  I have an email for it - LawShoolDissmissalRecovery@yahoo.com
I am not making money I just want to see people not have to go through what I did.  Plus, these schools almost seem to enjoy doing it AND they cheapen the profession.  and the ABA....  no more law schools, in fact I am in favor of shrinking the ones with the higest attrition and most negative environments, if not shutting them down...

Anyways I will stop being negative (although honest)

I would lvoe input from people that were dismissed and readmitted, dismissed and moved on, or those who were dismissed adn in the process of restating or petitioning to be put back into their school.

Best of Luck to everyone

-LS Buddy

http://lawschooladmissionagain.weebly.com/index.html

http://www.weebly.com/weebly/main.php