Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses => Topic started by: smuuthcriminal on May 24, 2009, 08:49:32 PM

Title: Liberty Law School
Post by: smuuthcriminal on May 24, 2009, 08:49:32 PM
I am considering Liberty Law School.  My interest lies in criminal law and a later-in-life judgeship.  Does anyone know the employment projections at this school?  Also, I'm interested in hearing about any experiences related to Liberty Law School.
- smuuthcriminal 
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: Matlock!!!! on May 24, 2009, 10:47:00 PM
Well, here you go.  It's one of the worst law schools in the country.  After 5 years, it's still dealing with provisional ABA accreditation and to add to that, a 27.1% first year attrition.  Unless you have a job already lined up that's waiting for your JD from Liberty.... RUN AWAY!

That's harsh, but schools like that are a black mark on us all.  ITE, you'll need more than "prayers" to find employment.  Don't expect it from there.
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: nealric on May 26, 2009, 09:36:53 PM
From what I gather (and based on a PDF of their student handbook which floated around here a while back), they enforce a very strict set of rules on students. Even moderate drinking (as in a glass of wine with dinner) can get you in serious trouble. I would avoid unless your social and political persuasions dovetail very closely with those of the administration.
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: LULAW1982 on May 26, 2009, 10:24:47 PM
The second and third posters have it completely wrong.  The honor code applies to the undergraduate students only.  Many students drink and never get into "trouble."

The law school is not one of the worst in the country.  This past summer, Liberty's bar passage rate was second only to UVA.  So far, two classes have taken the bar.  The VA AND the national average are around 90%. 

Liberty was provisionally accredited on their first chance after only a year-and-a half of operating.  The chance for full accreditation HAS NOT YET ARISEN, but will come w/n the next year.  The accreditation committee is being led by the dean from Baylor School of Law.

The attrition rate for Liberty is about what you would expect to find at a T3 or T4 school.  Most of the people in my class who left either transferred or decided law school was not for them. 

Lastly, many people from the first two classes are gainfully employed.  Many people from my class already have offers or jobs DESPITE the terrible economy.

As a future note, if you do not know what you are talking about, you should keep your mouth shut.   
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: Matlock!!!! on May 27, 2009, 09:13:19 AM
My, what a stunning come back.  27% attrition is the norm for tier 3 and 4????  REALLY?????  If you are representative of the "fact checkers" at Libety, this is yet another reason to avoid this "thing" like the plague.

Oh, and here's a great tidbit, Liberty just banned the Democrat club:

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/thegaggle/archive/2009/05/22/liberty-university-bans-dem-club.aspx

Wow!  Next thing you know they'll be teaching you to march goose-step style.

Hey, if Pat Robertson's your idol, by all means, knock yourself out and go have fun. (if that's possible)

Well shut my mouth!!!
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: NYCFed on May 27, 2009, 09:23:03 AM
I wish they would quit mailing me crap!
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: Ninja1 on May 27, 2009, 06:21:50 PM
Avoid.
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: Julie Fern on May 28, 2009, 01:32:42 PM

As a future note, if you do not know what you are talking about, you should keep your mouth shut.

would jesus be hsppy this comment?
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: Aluhks on May 28, 2009, 01:51:03 PM

Lastly, many people from the first two classes are gainfully employed. 
  

This says everything you need to know about Liberty. Many, not most or all, people from the first two classes are gainfully employed but no mention of whether they have legal jobs.
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: Remarq on May 28, 2009, 02:58:59 PM
I would avoid unless your social and political persuasions dovetail very closely with those of the administration.

I think unless the above then there are other law schools that have similar admissions requirements and employment prospects that do not come with the stigma that a Liberty degree does. Honestly, a lot of regular folks, people who are not anti-religous, are really freaked about by Liberty and Pat Robertson. Make sure that's an association that want people to make about you for the rest of your career. Only you know whether you're comfortble with that.
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: Julie Fern on May 28, 2009, 04:35:22 PM
apparently you mixing up your high-level holy-rollers.
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: smuuthcriminal on May 28, 2009, 07:06:39 PM
I appreciate all the info/comments from everyone.
- smuuthcriminal
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: Julie Fern on May 30, 2009, 07:59:25 PM
where julie go wrong here?
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: smuuthcriminal on June 01, 2009, 11:24:47 AM
Julie, where you went wrong is in your second statement -- a logical fallacy.  You cannot assume correctly that ALL (how your post is stated) people replying to my post, or any posters for that matter, are “high-level holy-rollers.” However, I cordially respect your comments and you being a part of the LSD community.  The latter is why I thanked you for your comment, as well.
 
I, for sure, am not a "high-level holy-roller."  I would be considered by my acquaintances as “reasonably religious.”  My beliefs are not tailored toward any single organized faith within Christendom, nor to any religion (Christian, Islam, etc.), which means that I possess religious freedom.  In other words, I am "religious tolerant."  Hopefully this clears up any confusion.
 
Not trying to step on your toes, but trying to get the record straight, I think you were instigating the mix-up in your first statement (about Jesus' happiness, in reply to LULAW1982's post).  Next time, try to keep this thought close to mind: people are not perfect, which includes you and me.

- smuuthcriminal 
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: scrabble75 on June 18, 2009, 08:46:48 PM
 :D

Well if anyone is interested in Liberty, be sure to read the 46 PAGES OF RULES
before you apply to school.


 :o
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: Matlock!!!! on June 18, 2009, 10:54:35 PM
Just got a PM from one of the Zombies there.  I'm still laughing at female dog!! ;D  I PM'd it back asking it to tell Jerry Falwell, God called and wanted his good reputation back.  And I love the fact that it interprets facts as "smack".  Please read this ANYONE considering this brain washing hell hole:

LULAW1982
Sr. Citizen
****
Posts: 118

View Profile Email Personal Message (Offline)
   
Re: Liberty

You are nothing but a punk.  Only losers talk smack on the Internet.  Go run to your mom female dog.

Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: mjh0111 on July 05, 2009, 06:25:47 PM
With all due respect to Matlock, I would highly recommend Liberty University School of Law to smuuthcriminal. I doubt you will get a better education than the one Liberty has to offer at even many T2 schools.

In the two years that I have spent there thus far, I have been very impressed by the breadth and depth of experience that the faculty bring to the table (and actually apply to classroom situations at least once a week). I have also been impressed with the breadth and depth of treatment of the subject matter in each classroom. Liberty intentionally has its students spend 20 percent more time in class (one hour) than virtually all other ABA-accredited institutions (50 minutes) in order to increase the treatment of the subject matter.

In addition, the Lawyering Skills program is unparalleled, and in fact is being emulated by several other law schools, including Washington & Lee University. I have accomplished, and gotten high marks on, more directly practice-related projects than you can shake an appellate brief at. Let me give you a small sampling of our graded assignments, all of which stem from required courses: interrogatories, a 40-page LLC operating agreement, depositions (taking and defending), negotiations, a contract for the sale of goods, a motion in limine, a statute, and a subpoena duces tecum. And that is just scratching the surface.

Matlock, I think you should know that TO AN INDIVIDUAL, every single member of every single ABA site team that has visited our institution has been astounded with the quality of every single aspect of our law school, from the law review to the law library to the classroom setting to the facilities. For you to pejoratively call LU School of Law a "black mark" and a "brain washing hell hole" is to exhibit both your poor judgment/taste and your virtual ignorance of the facts for the entire LSD community to see ... not to mention your extremely xenophobic and hateful attitude towards conservative Christians.
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: mjh0111 on July 05, 2009, 06:26:52 PM
For Exhibit A on Matlock's virtual ignorance of the facts, see his statement that Liberty is "still dealing with provisional ABA accreditation." For your information, LU received provisional accreditation faster than any ABA-accredited law school in the history of ABA-accredited law schools, which was 18 months. Going by sheer mathematics, the soonest that ANY institution could be granted full accreditation is a full four years after provisional accreditation, which would translate to April 2010. As LULAW1982 rather ineloquently pointed out, we have an ABA site team coming in the fall. Based on our track record and future projections, LU is a virtual shoo-in for full accreditation. And as you must know, oh wise Matlock, there is no difference between provisionally accredited schools and fully accredited schools, except fully accredited schools are permitted to engage in night school programs, joint degree programs (e.g., JD/MBA), and LL.M. programs. Oh, I'm sorry, you didn't know that, Matlock? Maybe you should check your facts the next time you begin to make overblown and unwarranted generalizations.
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: nealric on July 06, 2009, 07:58:51 PM
Quote
For Exhibit A on Matlock's virtual ignorance of the facts, see his statement that Liberty is "still dealing with provisional ABA accreditation." For your information, LU received provisional accreditation faster than any ABA-accredited law school in the history of ABA-accredited law schools, which was 18 months. Going by sheer mathematics, the soonest that ANY institution could be granted full accreditation is a full four years after provisional accreditation, which would translate to April 2010. As LULAW1982 rather ineloquently pointed out, we have an ABA site team coming in the fall. Based on our track record and future projections, LU is a virtual shoo-in for full accreditation. And as you must know, oh wise Matlock, there is no difference between provisionally accredited schools and fully accredited schools, except fully accredited schools are permitted to engage in night school programs, joint degree programs (e.g., JD/MBA), and LL.M. programs. Oh, I'm sorry, you didn't know that, Matlock? Maybe you should check your facts the next time you begin to make overblown and unwarranted generalizations.



Matlock said LU law is provisionally accredited. You just confirmed that LU is indeed provisionally accredited for the time being. How does that make him ignorant? 

Quote
Liberty intentionally has its students spend 20 percent more time in class (one hour) than virtually all other ABA-accredited institutions (50 minutes) in order to increase the treatment of the subject matter.

This makes no sense. At most schools, your time in class will equal the number of credit hours you take. I've never heard of a class that only lasts 50 minutes. That said, I'm glad you don't unintentionally spend 20% more time in class. They would need to fix their clocks if that were true.

Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: mjh0111 on July 06, 2009, 08:40:03 PM
Neal,

It makes him ignorant because of his insinuation that "Liberty sucks, look at them, they're still dealing with accreditation, bahahaha!" What that statement ignorantly fails to take into account is that LU School of Law has not yet had the opportunity to even APPLY for full accreditation, through the sheer minimum amount of time that it takes to so apply. As I stated, based on when LU attained provisional accreditation (which, AGAIN, was the FASTEST in ABA history), the absolute soonest that LU could attain full accreditation is in April 2010. And as I previously stated, we are on track to complete that milestone in the minimum amount of time, continuing to set records and impress site teams as we go.

Not having all the above information, the reader of Matlock's post is left with the bare and distinct insinuation that Liberty is subpar. QED.
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: NYCFed on July 07, 2009, 01:50:04 PM
Not having all the above information, the reader of Matlock's post is left with the bare and distinct insinuation that Liberty is subpar. QED.

If one defines being fully accredited as the accepted standard, then LU is subpar, which is defined as being of less than a traditional or accepted standard.
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: Matlock!!!! on July 08, 2009, 01:58:46 PM
Neal,

It makes him ignorant because of his insinuation that "Liberty sucks, look at them, they're still dealing with accreditation, bahahaha!" What that statement ignorantly fails to take into account is that LU School of Law has not yet had the opportunity to even APPLY for full accreditation, through the sheer minimum amount of time that it takes to so apply. As I stated, based on when LU attained provisional accreditation (which, AGAIN, was the FASTEST in ABA history), the absolute soonest that LU could attain full accreditation is in April 2010. And as I previously stated, we are on track to complete that milestone in the minimum amount of time, continuing to set records and impress site teams as we go.

Not having all the above information, the reader of Matlock's post is left with the bare and distinct insinuation that Liberty is subpar. QED.

Trust me sweet-cheeks, I'll give you your PROVISIONAL ACCREDITATION.  I don't really f-ing care.  There are SO many things screwed up about that institution, I could go on for days.... your accreditation is the least of those.  The ABA can't seem to open up *&^%-holes fast enough these days.  Hell, let's talk about OVER 27% FIRST YEAR ATTRITION!!!!!!  WHAT A f-ing GOD SEND IT MUST BE TO HAVE AN ADMINISTRATION THAT WILL STEAL $25-30,000 TUITION, TO THEN GO AND FLUNK OUT A THIRD OF THE RETARDED CLASS!!!  PRAISE BE TO JESUS!!!!!!

WHAT I DO CARE ABOUT, is kids going to law school, graduating with over $100,000 in debt, and then having *&^% for employment prospects upon graduation!!  What would Jesus do sweety???? Bankruptcy isn't going to be there to bail them out.  Will you?

Peace and Love.
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: Matlock!!!! on July 09, 2009, 09:46:11 PM
Here is yet ANOTHER reason to stay away from the POO HOLE KNOWN AS LIBERTY (And the rest of these cesspools should be done away with as well):

From Paul L. Caron, Tax Prof Blog

LawSchoolNumbers.com ranks the 195 law schools by 1L attrition rates.  (The ABA Section on Legal Education publishes aggregate attrition rates, and each school's attrition rate is available on its official ABA data sheet.)  Here are the 25 law schools with the highest attrition rates according to LawSchoolNumbers.com, along with the school's 2009 U.S. News overall ranking:

   1. Whittier (51.5% 1L attrition, #161 in U.S. News)
   2. Touro (37.4%, #171)
   3. Golden Gate (36.9%, #174)
   4. Western State (32.6%, not ranked)
   5. Jones School of Law (32.3%, not ranked)
   6. Widener (30.5%, #179)
   7. St. Thomas University (28.5%, #174)
   8. Barry (27.6%, #181)
   9. Liberty (27.1%, not ranked)
  10. Thomas M Cooley (26.0%, #181)
  11. Florida Coastal (23.7%, #171)
  12. California Western (23.6%, #156)
  13. Valparaiso (23.4%, #143)
  14. Florida International (23.3%, #153)
  15. Capital (22.8%, #161)
  16. Louisville (22.5%, #100)
  17. North Carolina Central (22.1%, #168)
  18. Detroit Mercy (21.9%, $163)
  19. Nova Southeastern (21.8%, #158)
  20. Oklahoma City (21.0%, $168)
  21. Willamette (21.0%, #137)
  22. Western New England (20.7%, #171)
  23. Northern Kentucky (20.2%, #156)
  24. University of The District of Columbia (20.0%, #181)
  25. Franklin Pierce (19.9%, #131)
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: Ipsa on January 27, 2010, 08:11:42 PM
LU School of Law is not for everyone.  This should be plainly obvious to anyone who visits their website.  It wears on its sleeve a proud and authentic dedication to teaching law according to the traditional Judeo-Christian values on which this country was founded.  If you have no inkling of what that means, or a knee-jerk reaction to what that instruction may contain, then I suggest you look elsewhere.

For a growing slice of students, however, Liberty's focus on traditional values is like a breath of fresh air.  The curriculum is very much focused on interpreting the law in light of the Founding Father's original intent.  There is a healthy skepticism for progressive causes and tactics, especially as it relates to judicial activism and relativism.  And, without a doubt, it is first and foremost a Christian university.  If that rubs you the wrong way then, again, look elsewhere.  If you want to be a ACLU lawyer, this ain't your gig.  But, most importantly, Liberty's focus alone does not make it an inferior school.  That is a tremendously naive position.  Consider:

Faculty, staff, and students are all very dedicated folks.  They WANT to be there, despite the knowledge that they will be ridiculed unfairly, ruthlessly, and without basis (e.g. read the rest of this thread).  This shared desire not only foments an esprit de corps you'd be hard to find at other schools but, most importantly, it attracts professors who are over-qualified for their positions---because they want to come to Liberty specifically.  There are several fed appellate judges on staff, numerous highly qualified attorneys, and, most recently, Ken Blackwell.  [That crash you just heard was yet another over-used stereotype about Liberty shattering.]  Moreover, in terms of post-graduation prospects, LU grads are indeed at a disadvantage relative to T1/T2 schools....unless the employer is Christian.  Yet another way faith pays.  But you have to know the secret handshake.

The facilities are brand-new and top-notch.  The campus includes a scale reproduction of the US Supreme courtroom.  There are two complete trial courtrooms, as well as two interview rooms.  Every classroom is state-of-the-art, no-expense-spared.  I challenge anyone to find a more technologically advanced law school in America today.

The curriculum includes six semesters of Lawyering Skills.  I challenge anyone to show me a law school in America with a similar, much less equivalent, focus on practical lawyering skills.  While a degree from Yale may look great hanging on the wall, I'll bet the average LU grad knows more about the real legal world than 95% of Yale's graduates.  This is borne out by Liberty's performance in the National Negotiation Tournament.  In 2008, Liberty qualified two teams in the National Negotiation Tournament---the first law school to do this in the HISTORY OF THE TOURNAMENT.  In 2009, Liberty Law put two more teams in the finals.  That type of performance simply isn't consistent with the allegations of mediocrity found elsewhere in this thread. 

I left my job as an senior manager at a global manufacturing corporation to attend law school at Liberty.  For those of you content to squabble over arbitrary law school statistics like a couple of pissed-off bookies after game day, I encourage you to gain a little perspective, a modicum of humility, and a healthy dose of maturity.  Attrition rates or no, ideology or no, Liberty Law is graduating some very fine lawyers.  When you meet one in the courtroom, I assure you their anxiety over attrition rates or their spiritual leanings will be the least of your worries. 
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: Ninja1 on February 07, 2010, 09:26:33 AM
LU School of Law is not for everyone.  This should be plainly obvious to anyone who visits their website.  It wears on its sleeve a proud and authentic dedication to teaching law according to the traditional Judeo-Christian values on which this country was founded.  If you have no inkling of what that means, or a knee-jerk reaction to what that instruction may contain, then I suggest you look elsewhere.

For a growing slice of students, however, Liberty's focus on traditional values is like a breath of fresh air.  The curriculum is very much focused on interpreting the law in light of the Founding Father's original intent.  There is a healthy skepticism for progressive causes and tactics, especially as it relates to judicial activism and relativism.  And, without a doubt, it is first and foremost a Christian university.  If that rubs you the wrong way then, again, look elsewhere.  If you want to be a ACLU lawyer, this ain't your gig.  But, most importantly, Liberty's focus alone does not make it an inferior school.  That is a tremendously naive position.  Consider:

Faculty, staff, and students are all very dedicated folks.  They WANT to be there, despite the knowledge that they will be ridiculed unfairly, ruthlessly, and without basis (e.g. read the rest of this thread).  This shared desire not only foments an esprit de corps you'd be hard to find at other schools but, most importantly, it attracts professors who are over-qualified for their positions---because they want to come to Liberty specifically.  There are several fed appellate judges on staff, numerous highly qualified attorneys, and, most recently, Ken Blackwell.  [That crash you just heard was yet another over-used stereotype about Liberty shattering.]  Moreover, in terms of post-graduation prospects, LU grads are indeed at a disadvantage relative to T1/T2 schools....unless the employer is Christian.  Yet another way faith pays.  But you have to know the secret handshake.

The facilities are brand-new and top-notch.  The campus includes a scale reproduction of the US Supreme courtroom.  There are two complete trial courtrooms, as well as two interview rooms.  Every classroom is state-of-the-art, no-expense-spared.  I challenge anyone to find a more technologically advanced law school in America today.

The curriculum includes six semesters of Lawyering Skills.  I challenge anyone to show me a law school in America with a similar, much less equivalent, focus on practical lawyering skills.  While a degree from Yale may look great hanging on the wall, I'll bet the average LU grad knows more about the real legal world than 95% of Yale's graduates.  This is borne out by Liberty's performance in the National Negotiation Tournament.  In 2008, Liberty qualified two teams in the National Negotiation Tournament---the first law school to do this in the HISTORY OF THE TOURNAMENT.  In 2009, Liberty Law put two more teams in the finals.  That type of performance simply isn't consistent with the allegations of mediocrity found elsewhere in this thread. 

I left my job as an senior manager at a global manufacturing corporation to attend law school at Liberty.  For those of you content to squabble over arbitrary law school statistics like a couple of pissed-off bookies after game day, I encourage you to gain a little perspective, a modicum of humility, and a healthy dose of maturity.  Attrition rates or no, ideology or no, Liberty Law is graduating some very fine lawyers.  When you meet one in the courtroom, I assure you their anxiety over attrition rates or their spiritual leanings will be the least of your worries. 

I lolled.
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: StonewallJacksonFan on February 07, 2010, 11:15:13 AM
I guess with tens of millions of dollars in donations and scores of religious attorney professors all things are possible.
Watch out guys, with all the money they are pouring into this gig in ten to twenty years they might actually be T2.
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: bigs5068 on February 26, 2010, 09:56:55 PM
Why does everyone talk trash about law schools that they know absolutely nothing about. It is really baffling everytime I see it, and where is this guy getting 27% attrition from LSAC said 18%, but there were only 5 academic fail outs 8 (other) category, which could be transfer or just not liking school altogether.

I know nothing about Liberty, but I am sure if the OP goes there he will learn the law. If it is a really religious school as some people implied then the OP should be aware of that. However, for people to go on rants about how bad a school is on here is ridiculous, especially when they have no direct ties to it.

46 pages of rules OH MY GOD. Go to any University handbook at any undergrad, I bet you it is 46 or more pages.  Stop talking about things you don't know about and scaring people away from schools. If you actually go to Liberty  then by all means speak up and if you had a problem with it then say something. The one guy that actually went there had positive things to say about it. The ABA is the ABA and whatever school you go you will learn the same things. First year curriculum of any ABA school is the same exact f'ing thing! Contracts, Torts, Criminal Law, Civil Procedure, Property, and Legal Writing. Whether you go to Harvard, Liberty, Cooley, Florida State, Hastings, any freaking one of them it will be the same law.
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: StonewallJacksonFan on February 28, 2010, 10:49:10 AM
That is true objectively,but tell that to the biglaw recruiters, they will appreciate the laugh they get out of this. Oh I forgot, you are not interested in biglaw, you looking to make 45k a year the rest of your life.  No problem.
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: bigs5068 on February 28, 2010, 04:05:27 PM
Yea I probably will be man. I already worked as a paralegal for a BIG LAW firm O'Melveny & Myers and I despised it and most of the people there. Not everybody goes to Big Law and odds are you probably won't even if you go to f'ing Harvard. It is rare man most people don't get to do big law, most lawyers in fact don't make that much money even if they go to solid law schools.  Two of my friends went to Hastings neither of them passed the bar they are not to impressed that their school is ranked 38th and a Cooley Grad who passed the bar has a better shot at BigLaw than they do. 

Good luck on your Big Law Career if you even get an interview. Big Law is kind of on the way out anyways, but go for it man if you want Big Law knock yourself out. Money is not everything I like the law and before law school I liked basketball I played pro basketball in China I wasn't good enough to make it to the NBA, it is pretty damn hard to that. However, I still did something I loved for a living after that was over I worked at OMM, but I was not smart enough to get into Harvard, but I still enjoy the law and want to be a lawyer therefore I went to law school a tier 4 no less and going to law school will allow me to be a lawyer.  I will probably never work in Big Law or sit on the U.S Supreme Court. Honestly, if Big Law is what you want go for it man, but you don't have to do Big Law. I know I never want to be around it again. 
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: Ipsa on March 02, 2010, 05:19:15 PM
Bigs,

I like your attitude.

People that have been around a little longer than others gain perspective, which it sounds like you have, and realize that there's more to life than bragging rights, making $250k/year, and countless hours in the grind.  If achieved, exactly which one of those goals will endear you to others?  Secure happiness?  Last?  None.

As they say, "Even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat."

Of course, if you're young and without perspective, then rankings, anecdotes, and peer-pressure are all you've got to go by.  No fault therein, just simply a reality of life.  All I can do is smile and nod my head when people like "Ninja" graciously extricate themselves from their Sony Playstations to give advice regarding major life decisions.  Perspective, indeed.
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: StonewallJacksonFan on March 02, 2010, 05:54:07 PM
well, there is certainly more to life than rat race, but just I hope for your sake that after you graduate from Cal West you guys will have money leftover every month for food after paying Aunt Sallie....
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: bigs5068 on March 02, 2010, 06:55:31 PM
Aunt Sallie or Mr. Access are going to put a damper on your day no matter what school you go to. Harvard or Cooley law school is EXPENSIVE and not many people have 100,000 lying around. My friends at Hastings are having a real hard time with Aunt Sallie considering they did not pass the bar and the loan company doesn't care that Hastings was ranked 38th.

Law school is a HUGE financial risk, but in general if you pass the bar you can make a living. Honestly, unless you go to an EXCEPTIONAL SCHOOL Harvard Yale and so on you are probably going to be in debt for awhile and not make that much money. Honestly there are a lot better ways to make money than law school. My friend is bartending in the city making 90k in all reality as a lawyer I may never make that much. If you are going to law school for MONEY DO NOT GO! You can make money doing lots of other things and not going 100k in debt and spending 3 years of your life making little to no money.

As a side conversation I don't understand why any Grad School and college is so expensive. I really think that instead of the government fighting for free health care they should give everybody access to free education so everybody can have a skill and afford health care. That is just by own opinion though.
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: StonewallJacksonFan on March 02, 2010, 09:18:29 PM
1200 monthly loan damper is one thing when you are making 1200 biweekly and totally another when you are making 4000 biweekly.

Grad schools grants are actually being cut because grad school is not considered essential education - you were supposed to get your skills yo in UG as far as government concerned.  When you go to UG they see it like you are aspirring to be middle class and they like it, thus all the subsidies and loans. If you going to grad schools they see it like you want to invest into making more money (be rich) and they are not going to pay you for you to make more money, you gotta do it yourself.  Especially there is not going to be any subsidies for law school students...

Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: nealric on March 03, 2010, 11:43:58 AM
Quote
People that have been around a little longer than others gain perspective, which it sounds like you have, and realize that there's more to life than bragging rights, making $250k/year, and countless hours in the grind.  If achieved, exactly which one of those goals will endear you to others?  Secure happiness?  Last?  None.

As they say, "Even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat."

Of course, if you're young and without perspective, then rankings, anecdotes, and peer-pressure are all you've got to go by.  No fault therein, just simply a reality of life.  All I can do is smile and nod my head when people like "Ninja" graciously extricate themselves from their Sony Playstations to give advice regarding major life decisions.  Perspective, indeed.

Here's the problem: If you are getting into the legal profession, there are few real alternatives to the rat race. Think struggling solo practitioners are working 35 hours a week on the beach?

Also, personal attacks are uncalled for. Continued personal insults will get you a time-out ban.
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: Ninja1 on March 04, 2010, 12:50:30 AM

...

All I can do is smile and nod my head when people like "Ninja" graciously extricate themselves from their Sony Playstations to give advice regarding major life decisions.  Perspective, indeed.

Well aren't you just the wise old man of the river? How's life at your televangelist funded fraud of a law school?
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: nealric on March 04, 2010, 07:42:14 AM
Next personal insult gets this thread locked.
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: Ipsa on March 08, 2010, 02:24:24 PM
On Saturday, Liberty Law won the regional ABA National Appellate Advocacy tournament, beating the likes of Wake Forest, Mississippi, George Mason, Charleston, Virginia, Colorado, and the #1 seed, Georgetown.

Moreover, Liberty Law claimed the 1st, 2nd, and 4th place awards for outstanding oralist.

Ninja1, I apologize for my previous comment.  Nealric, I agree, personal attacks are uncalled for.

I will let Liberty's performance as above speak for itself.
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: StonewallJacksonFan on March 08, 2010, 06:09:58 PM
Ipsa, I think as DR. LSAT would have put it you are making an unspoken assumption  that performance in an Advocacy Competition is indicative of the quality of the law school education.  It might, but more than likely it is simply a personal achievement only laterally related to the quality of legal education.  You won over Harvard, Yale and Stanford?  Good for you!!!! Now if only anybody cared....  In a few year you will learn that how smart, hard-working or capable you are matters very little in a legal world where pedigree is almost everything.   
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: bigs5068 on March 08, 2010, 06:21:07 PM
StonewallJacksonFan you seem to know everything about pedigrees etc are you even in law school and if you are has your pedigreed school gotten you an internship or anything? Or do you just keep telling yourself how much pedigree matters to make yourself feel better about yourself?  Pedigree means something if you went to Harvard or Yale, but even then you have to prove yourself those Liberty Grads that just beat Harvard's. When you become an attorney it matters if you win not what school you go to. Performance is everything not pedigree.

Pedigree will open doors and make it easier for you to prove yourself of the bat and certainly a Harvard grad will have more of an opportunity to prove themselves sooner than a Liberty one and in most cases the odds are the Harvard Grad will be smarter 9 out of 10 times. However, just because you went to Harvard, Berkley, etc does not make you a good attorney these Liberty Grads just proved they were better. The judge at the competition didn't care about what school they went to he cared about the performance and that is the real world. I a Harvard grad has 2 of 100 cases nobody is going to hire him his pedigree, becomes irrelevant. If a Liberty Grad has never lost a case his lack of attending a pedigreed school is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: StonewallJacksonFan on March 08, 2010, 06:34:23 PM
Big,  no I did not get into a super law school yet - I was only able to get into T30 only with a 25% schollie, which is why I am seriously debating whether going to law school is worth it at all for me this year.  I still have a shot at T10 and working on that...  No matter how many cases you win - and workign for any self respecting law firm you will not be allowed in court room for the first 5-10 years with the firm - you will always be a T6, T10, T14, TT, TTT, TTTT or TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT for a wide range of opportunities, including academia, prestigious judgeships and federal jobs.

If you strive to be a lawyer, knock yourself out and go to your TTTTTTTTTT, I am sure you will learn a lot and maybe even be an awesome lawyer.  However, similar to how it worked in middle ages, where no matter how able a peasant or a merchant were they would never be nobility, you will have a glass ceiling to many exciting opportunities.
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: bigs5068 on March 08, 2010, 07:25:51 PM
Honestly, until your in it dude you don't really know and I am only a 1L so I truthfully don't know that much either.

I have worked in two large firms and yes you can be in trial right after school generally under supervision of a senior attorney, but you still have the opportunity to prove yourself. Even law students can argue in court under supervision and when I was working the student interns often argued the case instead under the supervision of an attorney granted they were usually very simple matters, but they saw a courtroom.

The pedigree means something, but it is not everything when I worked in the New York Law Department we had 10 interns in my little department  4 from NYLS, 1 from Michigan, 2 from Harvard, 2 from Suffolk, and 1 from Hofstra. This was their 2L job and at the end they pretty much get conditional offers of employment if they wanted it and did a good during the summer. 9 out of the 10 got offered a job, but the Michigan student didn't. I played basketball with the attorneys, which is the whole reason I got hired in the first place  help their little intramural team out,  but I talked to them a lot and asked why she didn't get hired and they just said she was terrible, she was not hard working and her work was sloppy. She was top 10% of her class at Michigan, but she couldn't hack it in actual work.  It really doesn't matter your grades etc, if you don't do a good job it doesn't matter what school you went to etc. You will have the door opened, but you can close it yourself real quick.  I will analogize to sports look at what happened with the Cowboys when Tony Romo came in to replace Drew Bledsoe. Drew Bledsoe was a number one draft pick, but honestly he wasn't that good. Drew Bledose actually gave rise to two great unpedigreed players now that I think about it first  Tom Brady replaced him a 6th round pick who nobody expected anything from, but Tom Brady could play and Drew was gone the next year after they discovered how good Brady was and they didn't care much about Bledsoe's Pedigree. Then he went to the Cowboys and he still wasn't that good and they put Tony Romo in an unpedigreed and undrafted player who again could play, again Drew Bledsoe and his Pedigree was sent packing. Drew Bledsoe's Pedigrees gave him some opportunities, but the bottom line was he couldn't play and that is how business works. If you prove yourself it will work out, no matter who you are or where your from. If you have a pedigree it helps without question, but you still got to prove yourself. Drew Bledosoe was not even that big of a disappointment I could go on with all the pedigreed college player busts and 2nd round undrafted studs that came out of nowhere in every sport. Honestly that is the real world the pedigree helps you get your foot in the door I will not argue that, but no matter what you have to prove yourself.

Good for you for getting into a law school with a scholarship, honestly that is really great. However, until you are in it you really shouldn't be degrading schools and even if you were in it you shouldn't degrade schools you know nothing about. I have mentioned by two friends that went to Hastings with scholarships, but guess what they finished in the bottom 75% of the class lost their scholarship at the end of the first year and both just failed the bar. They like Bledsoe and the numerous pedigreed college players didn't perform and no employer gives a damn about the fact they went to a great school. Honestly, I know quite a few graduates and those are the only two I know that are really truly struggling. Hastings is certainly a great school and I am not taking anything away from it, but it just goes to show that you need to prove yourself. Going to a good school will not guarantee you anything. I am not arguing it doesn't help, but it is no guarantee and once you are actually in school you will gain respect for all law students.
Title: Re: Liberty Law School
Post by: nealric on March 09, 2010, 06:48:42 AM
Ok, this thread is ripe for closure.

For whatever reason, liberty just stirs up too many emotions in people.