Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses => Topic started by: calvinexpress on May 12, 2009, 05:21:39 PM

Title: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: calvinexpress on May 12, 2009, 05:21:39 PM
Which law school is harder? Cooley or Whittier? I heard Cooley is a hard law school. I haven't heard anything about Wittier. They both accpet students without a bachelors degree. They are both ABA approved. They both require the LSAT. They are both $35,000.00 a year. So they are both pretty much the same except the professors. Which one is harder?
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: Ninja1 on May 13, 2009, 04:30:02 PM
Neither. Work as a manager at Domino's 100x over first.
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: haventaclue on May 14, 2009, 10:16:04 PM
I would say Whittier is more difficult only because of the curve. I believe they were involved in a scandal not long ago when they dismissed an enormous amount of their student body due to the harsh curve they implement which has brought them in danger of losing their accreditation.I wouldn't go to either one though. Are you just thinking of attending these schools because you don't have a bachelors degree? Taking a shortcut is not always the best way to go. Not only will law school be significantly more difficult for you because of a lack of training in critical thinking skills, but it may also hinder your post graduation employment search. Just suck it up and dedicate 4 years to getting an education. If you can't commit to four years of relatively easy academic study, how can you possibly commit to three years of intense academic study? Take baby steps. Maybe after getting a degree and taking some law classes at the UG level you will discover that law is not for you.























































































Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: nealric on May 16, 2009, 08:05:12 AM
Quote
PS: Only come here if you want to be insulted and discouraged by the immature and inexperienced bloggers who love this site.

Only someone cruel would encourage a moth heading towards a glowing bug zapper. Since I am generally a cruel person, I am hereby providing strong encouragement to attend one of these schools.
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: nealric on May 16, 2009, 08:10:44 AM
Quote
3. If you want to become an attorney, choose an ABA approved school (such as Cooley or Whitter if you like), do your best and go practice law.


It is an unfortunate fact that fewer than half of those who matriculate at Cooley ever practice law.

So here is my advice as an immature and inexperienced snob. Hard work goes a long way, but it's best to apply that hard work where it will be most effective. It's far easier to spend a year prepping for the LSAT than it is to spend years post graduation trying to overcome having gone to a school of dubious reputation.
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: allaboutlydia on May 16, 2009, 09:58:54 PM
I don't anything about Cooley but it's untrue that Whittier accepts students without degrees. You must have a degree and have taken the LSAT to apply and get accepted to Whittier.  There was no scandal involving dismissing most of the student body.  Please research your facts before posting inaccurate information.  Now for some facts:

1.  Whittier is the oldest fully accredited ABA law schools in Orange County
2.  More than 80% of Whittier Grads have passed the bar in 2008
3.  Whittier Grads have the highest starting salary of OC law schools
4.  Here's a list of firms that have hired Whittier graduates:

• Allred Maroko & Goldberg, Los Angeles

• Baker Botts LLP, Dallas

• Ballard Rosenberg Golper & Savitt, LLP, Universal City, CA

• Berger, Khan, Shafton, Moss, Irvine & Marina Del Rey

• Birch, Stewart, Kolasch & Birch, LLP , Costa Mesa

• Blakely, Sokoloff, Taylor & Zafman, LLP, Los Angeles

• Bonne Bridges Mueller O’Keefe & Nichols, Santa Ana & Los Angeles

• Buchalter Nemer Fields & Younger, Los Angeles

• Cooksey Toolen Gage Duffy & Woog, Costa Mesa

• Cotkin Collins & Ginsburg, Santa Ana

• Cummins & White, LLP, Newport Beach

• Demetriou, Del Guercio, Springer & Francis, LLP, Los Angeles

• Fitzpatrick, Cella, Harper & Scinto, Costa Mesa

• Ford, Walker, Haggerty & Behar, LLP, Long Beach

• Fulbright & Jaworski, LLP, Los Angeles

• Fulwider Patton Lee & Utecht, LLP, Los Angeles

• Greenberg Traurig LLP, Santa Monica

• Gates & Cooper LLP, Los Angeles

• Gunster Yoakley, Palm Beach, FL

• Haight, Brown & Bonesteel, LLP, Los Angeles

• Harness, Dickey & Pierce, PLC, Saint Louis, MO

• Heller Ehrman LLP, San Francisco & Singapore

• Holland & Hart, LLP, Denver

• Holland & Knight, LLP, Miami

• Hooper, Lundy & Bookman, Inc., Los Angeles

• Jackson DeMarco & Peckenpaugh, Irvine

• Jackson Walker LLP, Dallas

• Jeffer, Mangels, Butler & Marmaro, LLP, Los Angeles

• Jenkins & Gilchrist, Dallas

• Keesal, Young, & Logan, Long Beach

• Kiesel Boucher & Larson, LLP, Beverly Hills

• Knobbe, Martens, Olsen & Bear LLP, Irvine & Riverside

• Latham & Watkins, New York

• Lewis Brisbois Bisgaard & Smith LLP, Los Angeles

• Loeb & Loeb LLP, Los Angeles

• Masry & Vititoe, Westlake Village, CA

• Manatt, Phelps & Phillips, LLP, Los Angeles

• Manning & Marder, Kass, Ellrod, Ramirez LLP, Los Angeles

• Mardirossian & Associates Inc., Los Angeles

• Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP, Chicago

• Milberg Weiss Bershad Hynes & Lerach LLP, San Diego

• Mitchell Silberberg & Knupp, LLP, Los Angeles

• Morgan Lewis LLP, Los Angeles & San Francisco

• Nossaman, Guthner, Knox & Elliott LLP, Irvine

• Orrick, Herrington & Sutcliffe LLP, Orange County

• O’Sullivan Graev & Karabell, LLP, New York

• Quinn, Emanuel, Urquhart, Oliver, & Hedges, LLP, Los Angeles

• Reed Smith, Los Angeles & Washington D.C.

• Richards, Watson & Gershon, Los Angeles

• Salomon Brothers, Inc., New York

• Sedgwick, Detert, Moran & Arnold LLP, Los Angeles

• Seyfarth Shaw LLP, Los Angeles

• Shulman Hodges & Bastian LLP, Foothill Ranch

• Snell & Wilmer LLP, Phoenix

• Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal LLP, Los Angeles

• Stephan Oringer Richman & Theodora, Costa Mesa & Los Angeles

• Stradling Yocca Carlson & Rauth, Newport Beach

• Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Tampa, FL

• Toshiba America Information Systems, Irvine

• Wasserman, Comden, Casselman & Pearson, LLP, Tarzana

• White & Case LLP, New York

• Wilson, Elser, Moskowitz, Edelman & Dicker LLP, Los Angeles & Newark

• Wilson, Sonsini, Goodrich & Rosati, Palo Alto

• Winstead Sechrest & Minick P.C., Dallas

• Winston & Strawn LLP, New York
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: Ninja1 on May 17, 2009, 02:24:15 PM
I don't anything about Cooley but it's untrue that Whittier accepts students without degrees. You must have a degree and have taken the LSAT to apply and get accepted to Whittier.  There was no scandal involving dismissing most of the student body.  Please research your facts before posting inaccurate information.  Now for some facts:

1.  Whittier is the oldest fully accredited ABA law schools in Orange County
2.  More than 80% of Whittier Grads have passed the bar in 2008
3.  Whittier Grads have the highest starting salary of OC law schools
4.  Here's a list of firms that have hired Whittier graduates:

• Allred Maroko & Goldberg, Los Angeles

• Baker Botts LLP, Dallas

• Ballard Rosenberg Golper & Savitt, LLP, Universal City, CA

• Berger, Khan, Shafton, Moss, Irvine & Marina Del Rey

• Birch, Stewart, Kolasch & Birch, LLP , Costa Mesa

• Blakely, Sokoloff, Taylor & Zafman, LLP, Los Angeles

• Bonne Bridges Mueller O’Keefe & Nichols, Santa Ana & Los Angeles

• Buchalter Nemer Fields & Younger, Los Angeles

• Cooksey Toolen Gage Duffy & Woog, Costa Mesa

• Cotkin Collins & Ginsburg, Santa Ana

• Cummins & White, LLP, Newport Beach

• Demetriou, Del Guercio, Springer & Francis, LLP, Los Angeles

• Fitzpatrick, Cella, Harper & Scinto, Costa Mesa

• Ford, Walker, Haggerty & Behar, LLP, Long Beach

• Fulbright & Jaworski, LLP, Los Angeles

• Fulwider Patton Lee & Utecht, LLP, Los Angeles

• Greenberg Traurig LLP, Santa Monica

• Gates & Cooper LLP, Los Angeles

• Gunster Yoakley, Palm Beach, FL

• Haight, Brown & Bonesteel, LLP, Los Angeles

• Harness, Dickey & Pierce, PLC, Saint Louis, MO

• Heller Ehrman LLP, San Francisco & Singapore

• Holland & Hart, LLP, Denver

• Holland & Knight, LLP, Miami

• Hooper, Lundy & Bookman, Inc., Los Angeles

• Jackson DeMarco & Peckenpaugh, Irvine

• Jackson Walker LLP, Dallas

• Jeffer, Mangels, Butler & Marmaro, LLP, Los Angeles

• Jenkins & Gilchrist, Dallas

• Keesal, Young, & Logan, Long Beach

• Kiesel Boucher & Larson, LLP, Beverly Hills

• Knobbe, Martens, Olsen & Bear LLP, Irvine & Riverside

• Latham & Watkins, New York

• Lewis Brisbois Bisgaard & Smith LLP, Los Angeles

• Loeb & Loeb LLP, Los Angeles

• Masry & Vititoe, Westlake Village, CA

• Manatt, Phelps & Phillips, LLP, Los Angeles

• Manning & Marder, Kass, Ellrod, Ramirez LLP, Los Angeles

• Mardirossian & Associates Inc., Los Angeles

• Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP, Chicago

• Milberg Weiss Bershad Hynes & Lerach LLP, San Diego

• Mitchell Silberberg & Knupp, LLP, Los Angeles

• Morgan Lewis LLP, Los Angeles & San Francisco

• Nossaman, Guthner, Knox & Elliott LLP, Irvine

• Orrick, Herrington & Sutcliffe LLP, Orange County

• O’Sullivan Graev & Karabell, LLP, New York

• Quinn, Emanuel, Urquhart, Oliver, & Hedges, LLP, Los Angeles

• Reed Smith, Los Angeles & Washington D.C.

• Richards, Watson & Gershon, Los Angeles

• Salomon Brothers, Inc., New York

• Sedgwick, Detert, Moran & Arnold LLP, Los Angeles

• Seyfarth Shaw LLP, Los Angeles

• Shulman Hodges & Bastian LLP, Foothill Ranch

• Snell & Wilmer LLP, Phoenix

• Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal LLP, Los Angeles

• Stephan Oringer Richman & Theodora, Costa Mesa & Los Angeles

• Stradling Yocca Carlson & Rauth, Newport Beach

• Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Tampa, FL

• Toshiba America Information Systems, Irvine

• Wasserman, Comden, Casselman & Pearson, LLP, Tarzana

• White & Case LLP, New York

• Wilson, Elser, Moskowitz, Edelman & Dicker LLP, Los Angeles & Newark

• Wilson, Sonsini, Goodrich & Rosati, Palo Alto

• Winstead Sechrest & Minick P.C., Dallas

• Winston & Strawn LLP, New York


Still a TTTT, despite the 40 or so of their grads that have ever landed semi-respectable jobs.
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: Contract2008 on May 17, 2009, 04:53:20 PM
I posted a similiar thread to Ninja's.  Why was mine deleted? 
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: Ninja1 on May 17, 2009, 05:21:34 PM
I posted a similiar thread to Ninja's.  Why was mine deleted? 

Sure it just didn't post right? This site sucks on getting posts in sometimes.
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: calvinexpress on May 17, 2009, 06:30:49 PM
hello allaboutlydia, I have to correct you due to the fact that you are wrong. You said below that Whittier does not accept students without a bachelors degree. You are wrong. Whittier does in fact accept students withouta  bachelors degree. Here is the link to the facts taken from whittier's website itself. http://www.law.whittier.edu/pstudents/admissions/admissions.html#special
Also, I am going to repost what you posted below. You said "Please research your facts before posting inaccurate information." There you go, maybe you should do your own research before you post inaccurate information.  ;)


I don't anything about Cooley but it's untrue that Whittier accepts students without degrees. You must have a degree and have taken the LSAT to apply and get accepted to Whittier.  There was no scandal involving dismissing most of the student body.  Please research your facts before posting inaccurate information.  Now for some facts:

1.  Whittier is the oldest fully accredited ABA law schools in Orange County
2.  More than 80% of Whittier Grads have passed the bar in 2008
3.  Whittier Grads have the highest starting salary of OC law schools
4.  Here's a list of firms that have hired Whittier graduates:

Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: Good Teacher on May 19, 2009, 03:45:01 AM
Quote
3. If you want to become an attorney, choose an ABA approved school (such as Cooley or Whitter if you like), do your best and go practice law.


It is an unfortunate fact that fewer than half of those who matriculate at Cooley ever practice law.

So here is my advice as an immature and inexperienced snob. Hard work goes a long way, but it's best to apply that hard work where it will be most effective. It's far easier to spend a year prepping for the LSAT than it is to spend years post graduation trying to overcome having gone to a school of dubious reputation.

1.  Where are you getting your stats from?
2.  How do those numbers compare to Harvard, Yale, or Emory? (Many people go to law school with not real intention of ever practicing law.)
3.  Why are you assuming he's choosing these schools because his LSAT score?  He mentioned something about not having completed undergrad yet; we know nothing about his LSAT score.  Besides, Whittier and Cooley have applicants with LSAT scores above the 90th percentile.  (That stat can easily be found on the LSAC site.)  They likely chose these schools for reasons other than a lack of options so let's not assume that everyone at such schools chose them because of a lack of proper LSAT preparation.
4.  Do you hold these schools in ill repute because of your prejudice related to LSAT scores?  If so, you honestly fit my earlier description (i.e. immature and inexperienced).
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: nealric on May 19, 2009, 07:56:13 AM
1. Stat is simply removing those who fail out and those who fail the bar. I know, people can pass the bar after multiple tries, but many don't. This is not even making an allowance for those who actually graduate and pass the bar but can't find legal employment.
2. Harvard graduates essentially 100% of matriculants (no academic attrition) and substantially all graduates pass the bar.
3. Because it's very unlikely someone would chose between those schools with a good LSAT score. Sure, people above the 90th percentile matriculate. Most of them are probably making a mistake.
4. No, I hold these schools in ill repute because they are ex-ante very poor options for prospective law students. I don't really care if someone's LSAT is 140 or 180, but it will be to their benefit if their LSAT score is the best it can be. It's far easier to spend a year working on the LSAT than many years into a career overcoming the disadvantages of a school with poor prospects. Is it fair? No, but it behooves you to play the game.
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: CTL on May 19, 2009, 09:29:06 AM
I like how Ultra Magnus pretty much generalizes that anyone who would advise against Cooley/Whittier is immature/inexperienced. 

I mean, come on...that's like saying that you're an elitist snob if you think choosing a rickshaw over a car is a good idea.   

I think you would have to be pretty naive or inexperienced to believe that Cooley/Whittier represent sound options for individuals interested in practicing law.   
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: CTL on May 19, 2009, 09:42:50 AM
1. Stat is simply removing those who fail out and those who fail the bar. I know, people can pass the bar after multiple tries, but many don't. This is not even making an allowance for those who actually graduate and pass the bar but can't find legal employment.
2. Harvard graduates essentially 100% of matriculants (no academic attrition) and substantially all graduates pass the bar.
3. Because it's very unlikely someone would chose between those schools with a good LSAT score. Sure, people above the 90th percentile matriculate. Most of them are probably making a mistake.
4. No, I hold these schools in ill repute because they are ex-ante very poor options for prospective law students. I don't really care if someone's LSAT is 140 or 180, but it will be to their benefit if their LSAT score is the best it can be. It's far easier to spend a year working on the LSAT than many years into a career overcoming the disadvantages of a school with poor prospects. Is it fair? No, but it behooves you to play the game.

Wow!!! You make a lot of assumptions there buddy.  You speak as if they must be true simply because you assume them.  Good luck "lawyering".

What are you talking about? 
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: CTL on May 19, 2009, 10:02:29 AM
I'm referring to your implication that nealric is somehow going to fail as a lawyer because he makes assumptions. 

Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: dashrashi on May 19, 2009, 10:28:29 AM
Not to defend ultra magnus, who is acting like a dillweed, like, to the MAX, but nealric still hasn't addressed the fact that the OP could have a 180 and still have to go to one of these two schools, presumably because OP doesn't have a bachelor's. The LSAT (and taking a year to prep for it or not) does seem wholly irrelevant to me. As far as substantive advice, of course it's good to finish your bachelor's and hugely widen your range of options. But I'm not going to pretend I haven't heard of situations on this board where that wasn't a viable option for the person in question, for legitimate reasons, forcing them to choose between less than ideal options, but not making the "huge mistake" these choices are sometimes cast as.
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: CTL on May 19, 2009, 10:33:54 AM
I think it's safe to assume that anyone who is interested in practicing law in the US (not out of the back of a rv) needs a bachelor's degree.  Maybe nealric didn't explicate his entire chain of reasoning, but I think it's fair to assume that it's not worth going to law school without a bachelor's degree.
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: CTL on May 19, 2009, 10:37:30 AM
Oh yea, I forgot to add that once you establish that a bachelor's degree is a good idea (a pretty warranted premise), it's not irrelevant to suggest that one work on a good LSAT score so that their options are not limited to 'schools' like Cooley/Whittier.  If you want a piece of paper that says you're a lawyer, forget all that advice and shell out the money to Cooley/Whittier.   
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: Matthies on May 19, 2009, 10:41:11 AM
Also there are other schools, Tulane being one of them, that admit people without degrees.

Additionally its only relatively recently in the history of American legal education that a degree was necessary for most professional schools. Hell law school was not even necessary for most of the history of the legal profession in the US, you read for the law under a practicing lawyer.  Is it the standard way now, no of course not, but there are other options out there than just standard BA + JD at a school everyone thinks is cool.

I dunno call me a LSD weirdo but I’m not confidant enough in my own abilities or achievements to go telling other people how they should live their lives. Once I pass the bar than I’ll tell all of you to suck it, but until then I’m being cautious about how much a disparage people I don’t know in, situations I’m not in, going to schools I’ve never attended.
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: CTL on May 19, 2009, 10:47:13 AM
I don't think we need to fall victim to relativism though.  There are some suggestions that are wise.  GENERALLY, I believe that having more options is much more valuable than having fewer options, which is why I think it is sage advice to tell someone to aim high when applying to law schools.
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: dashrashi on May 19, 2009, 10:50:54 AM
I mean, what I'm getting from you, ctl, is that you haven't heard about the same situations I have. It was something like the guy being a credit short, having a job lined up through previous connections/jobs, all that he needed was a JD from somewhere, but it would have cost him a bunch of money he didn't have, and made him uproot his family, in order to get that last credit. I think he had something like a 165 (I could be pretty off on this, though, but it was a solidly good score) and had, I think, a scholarship from Cooley. I think he was possibly from Lansing, and planning to stay there, also.

So I disagree about the safety of your assumptions. This guy didn't sound like 1800-RV-ATTY-7, despite not having a bachelor's, and it didn't really seem to make sense in his situation. Also, nealric just assumed that the guy's LSAT score wasn't good, without any reason to think that. So why recommend spending a year prepping for the LSAT? Hell, maybe the OP already did, reaped the benefits, but still doesn't quite have that BA sealed up?

I don't know. Obviously, it's a rare situation, but it's not out of the realm of possibility. And given the history (see generally Matthies) of the profession, I'm not too inclined to cast aspersions on people limited in their options in this particular way.

Telling the OP to "aim high" might not really be applicable--these might just be it for him and other options really are just not feasible. So maybe more options might be nice in some hypothetical world, but that doesn't make this some unbridled mistake, necessarily. All I'm saying.
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: futurelawyergal on May 19, 2009, 11:02:22 AM
To answer your original question: If you are decided between the two I would pick Whittier. It is in California which has clearly better weather than Michigan. Nationally, it has a better reputation out of the two (in my humble opinion). Granted I am from the East Coast but Cooley typically gets joked about a lot...Whittier isn't usually the 1st choice when someone is cracking a law school joke. Just my opinion. Best of luck!
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: CTL on May 19, 2009, 11:17:19 AM
I mean, what I'm getting from you, ctl, is that you haven't heard about the same situations I have. It was something like the guy being a credit short, having a job lined up through previous connections/jobs, all that he needed was a JD from somewhere, but it would have cost him a bunch of money he didn't have, and made him uproot his family, in order to get that last credit. I think he had something like a 165 (I could be pretty off on this, though, but it was a solidly good score) and had, I think, a scholarship from Cooley. I think he was possibly from Lansing, and planning to stay there, also.

So I disagree about the safety of your assumptions. This guy didn't sound like 1800-RV-ATTY-7, despite not having a bachelor's, and it didn't really seem to make sense in his situation. Also, nealric just assumed that the guy's LSAT score wasn't good, without any reason to think that. So why recommend spending a year prepping for the LSAT? Hell, maybe the OP already did, reaped the benefits, but still doesn't quite have that BA sealed up?

I don't know. Obviously, it's a rare situation, but it's not out of the realm of possibility. And given the history (see generally Matthies) of the profession, I'm not too inclined to cast aspersions on people limited in their options in this particular way.

Telling the OP to "aim high" might not really be applicable--these might just be it for him and other options really are just not feasible. So maybe more options might be nice in some hypothetical world, but that doesn't make this some unbridled mistake, necessarily. All I'm saying.

Fair enough.  I guess I was just thinking (perhaps without warrant) that the OP really doesn't have many options and is not in a similar situation to the poster you referenced.  I mean, he/she is asking about Cooley and Whittier.  They are in two geographically distinct markets/areas, and have little in common other than their status as unselective lawyer factories.  The OP just asked which is 'harder', which really is probably just a flame question anyway.

Anyway, you make a good point.  There are some legitimate reasons why one would attend either school, but I guess I'm more cynical about this poster.  Too much LSD makes CTL a snarky boy...
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: Matthies on May 19, 2009, 11:22:17 AM
I don't think we need to fall victim to relativism though.  There are some suggestions that are wise.  GENERALLY, I believe that having more options is much more valuable than having fewer options, which is why I think it is sage advice to tell someone to aim high when applying to law schools.

Well I look at it like this. I don’t even know where Whitter is. The common wisdom is thought that if you go there your screwed. Ok, fine, but where is this common wisdom coming from? People who go to Whitter or Cooley or Idaho or South Dakota or some other T4? No, its not. Too bad we don’t have more posters on here from T4 schools to give us first hand experiences. But we don’t maybe because if we did all their threads would turn into three pages of everyone telling them how much they suck and they would leave and never come back.

We have a lot of posters from T2 schools and above and at least one from everyone of the top 14 schools (some have many posters). But as far as I know, no one who actually goes to Whitter or Cooley. Like I said, I don’t even know where Whitter is. So I’ll save my judgment on the schools and ones prospects.

We can I think generally agree that going to a T4 school puts you at a disadvantage over going to a higher ranked school. I don’t think it’s as cut and dried as many make it out to be however, epically when your talking local schools. Why do I believe that, not because anyone told me, but simply because that’s been my own personal experience. I mean I had a lot of people tell me how hard it was going to be finding a job going to a T2 school. Well for me that has not been the case at all.

My point is yes there is common wisdom, but at what point to we take someone else’s opinion to be fact that has not had any personal experience whith the subject he speaks with authority on? My cousins, brother’s dog groomer went there so I know everything about it? I mean does anyone here bashing this kid go to a T4? Has anyone here tried to get a job from Whitter, graduated from there, looked for jobs in Orange County? No. Instead we have people who don’t go to these schools and places like JD Underground again full of people who did not go to these schools telling people as if its fact what will happen to them if they go to these schools.

Hell I have enough problems telling what my future will be in 30 mins, much less someone else’s who I have never met, who is a different situation than me, who’s going to a school I have never heard of, in market I’ve never even been to what their life is going to be like in 3+ years. I guess I tend to defer  and prefer to hear it from the horse’s mouth than just chalk everything up to common wisdom.
 
Common wisdom would have said: A) I’d never get into a law school, B- I would never make through law school, C- I would graduate at the bottom of my class, D- I would never get a job from my law school. If I had listen to common wisdom I would have made some really dumb decisions for myself based on what people who are not me, not in my position told me life would be like. I’m pretty glad at this point I did not listen to them. Maybe Whitter is full of people who wished they listened to the common wisdom and did not go there, I dunno, but I bet there are at least some folks who went there and reached their personal goals. I for one am in no position to be casting the first stone however, so I won’t tell other people what their life is going to be like when I can’t even control my own.

I wish we had more students from T4 schools so would could actually here first had experiences, but I can see why, with thread like this, they don’t stick around log to share their experiences.   
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: Matthies on May 19, 2009, 11:26:58 AM
Wow what a coindince I just got an e-mail saying our former dean of students is leaving to become dean of Whitter (I do know its in CA now). So there I have a personal connection to the school so I can predict everyone’s future who goes there now. Ask away.

PS. She was a great Dean here, so I bet she will be a good dean there.


<--- expert on Whitter now
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: CTL on May 19, 2009, 11:39:59 AM
Fair enough, Matthies.  I understand your perspective, but I'm not posting just to bash someone.  I generally think LSD serves to bring a dose of reality to many posters who have barely researched the legal profession, law schools, and their odds at getting from point A to point B.  After lurking around here for a year I realized that it might be wise to try to increase my LSAT score.  That decision ended up paying off huge for me, so I feel somewhat indebted to the board. 

I can be too snarky from time to time, but I think it's better to have balanced doses of reality than unconditional support (at least on forums like this).  Sure, xoxo and JDU are pretty much useless and ugly, but LSD tends to balance humor/fun with often sound advice.  I'm glad you present a different picture than the T14orbust crowd (which I can be a part of).  It definitely helps balance out the board.  At the same time, I think there is utility in the common assumptions of the T14orbust crowd: 'the more options you have, the better...the more competitive school, the better...the stronger alumni network, the better...'  All the viewpoints can be helpful when measured by different perspectives.
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: nealric on May 19, 2009, 03:40:30 PM
Quote
Also, nealric just assumed that the guy's LSAT score wasn't good

The LSAT thing was really more in response to a previous poster who brought up LSAT based elitism. The comment was more general to someone deciding between a school like Cooley and Whittier. However, I think it was a relatively safe assumption. First, Cooley gives an auto-full ride for a 163- which probably would have been mentioned in the post. If the OP was deciding between Cooley and Whittier, they aren't looking at Cooley because of geographic ties. As Matthies pointed out, there are much better schools (i.e. Tulane) that would accept someone without an undergrad degree. I also meant the comment as a general one that it's better to do work up front and get into a school that will allow you to do less work later to get to where you want to be.

 
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: SweetAsCandy on May 25, 2009, 04:13:19 PM
I don't think we need to fall victim to relativism though.  There are some suggestions that are wise.  GENERALLY, I believe that having more options is much more valuable than having fewer options, which is why I think it is sage advice to tell someone to aim high when applying to law schools.

Well I look at it like this. I don’t even know where Whitter is. The common wisdom is thought that if you go there your screwed. Ok, fine, but where is this common wisdom coming from? People who go to Whitter or Cooley or Idaho or South Dakota or some other T4? No, its not. Too bad we don’t have more posters on here from T4 schools to give us first hand experiences. But we don’t maybe because if we did all their threads would turn into three pages of everyone telling them how much they suck and they would leave and never come back.

We have a lot of posters from T2 schools and above and at least one from everyone of the top 14 schools (some have many posters). But as far as I know, no one who actually goes to Whitter or Cooley. Like I said, I don’t even know where Whitter is. So I’ll save my judgment on the schools and ones prospects.

We can I think generally agree that going to a T4 school puts you at a disadvantage over going to a higher ranked school. I don’t think it’s as cut and dried as many make it out to be however, epically when your talking local schools. Why do I believe that, not because anyone told me, but simply because that’s been my own personal experience. I mean I had a lot of people tell me how hard it was going to be finding a job going to a T2 school. Well for me that has not been the case at all.

My point is yes there is common wisdom, but at what point to we take someone else’s opinion to be fact that has not had any personal experience whith the subject he speaks with authority on? My cousins, brother’s dog groomer went there so I know everything about it? I mean does anyone here bashing this kid go to a T4? Has anyone here tried to get a job from Whitter, graduated from there, looked for jobs in Orange County? No. Instead we have people who don’t go to these schools and places like JD Underground again full of people who did not go to these schools telling people as if its fact what will happen to them if they go to these schools.

Hell I have enough problems telling what my future will be in 30 mins, much less someone else’s who I have never met, who is a different situation than me, who’s going to a school I have never heard of, in market I’ve never even been to what their life is going to be like in 3+ years. I guess I tend to defer  and prefer to hear it from the horse’s mouth than just chalk everything up to common wisdom.
 
Common wisdom would have said: A) I’d never get into a law school, B- I would never make through law school, C- I would graduate at the bottom of my class, D- I would never get a job from my law school. If I had listen to common wisdom I would have made some really dumb decisions for myself based on what people who are not me, not in my position told me life would be like. I’m pretty glad at this point I did not listen to them. Maybe Whitter is full of people who wished they listened to the common wisdom and did not go there, I dunno, but I bet there are at least some folks who went there and reached their personal goals. I for one am in no position to be casting the first stone however, so I won’t tell other people what their life is going to be like when I can’t even control my own.

I wish we had more students from T4 schools so would could actually here first had experiences, but I can see why, with thread like this, they don’t stick around log to share their experiences.   



OMG.
Matthies.
You are seriously my favorite person on these boards.

When you graduate, please lemme know your contact info, because I want YOU to be MY lawyer. haha.
Seriously.
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: Matthies on May 26, 2009, 07:01:03 AM
I don't think we need to fall victim to relativism though.  There are some suggestions that are wise.  GENERALLY, I believe that having more options is much more valuable than having fewer options, which is why I think it is sage advice to tell someone to aim high when applying to law schools.

Well I look at it like this. I don’t even know where Whitter is. The common wisdom is thought that if you go there your screwed. Ok, fine, but where is this common wisdom coming from? People who go to Whitter or Cooley or Idaho or South Dakota or some other T4? No, its not. Too bad we don’t have more posters on here from T4 schools to give us first hand experiences. But we don’t maybe because if we did all their threads would turn into three pages of everyone telling them how much they suck and they would leave and never come back.

We have a lot of posters from T2 schools and above and at least one from everyone of the top 14 schools (some have many posters). But as far as I know, no one who actually goes to Whitter or Cooley. Like I said, I don’t even know where Whitter is. So I’ll save my judgment on the schools and ones prospects.

We can I think generally agree that going to a T4 school puts you at a disadvantage over going to a higher ranked school. I don’t think it’s as cut and dried as many make it out to be however, epically when your talking local schools. Why do I believe that, not because anyone told me, but simply because that’s been my own personal experience. I mean I had a lot of people tell me how hard it was going to be finding a job going to a T2 school. Well for me that has not been the case at all.

My point is yes there is common wisdom, but at what point to we take someone else’s opinion to be fact that has not had any personal experience whith the subject he speaks with authority on? My cousins, brother’s dog groomer went there so I know everything about it? I mean does anyone here bashing this kid go to a T4? Has anyone here tried to get a job from Whitter, graduated from there, looked for jobs in Orange County? No. Instead we have people who don’t go to these schools and places like JD Underground again full of people who did not go to these schools telling people as if its fact what will happen to them if they go to these schools.

Hell I have enough problems telling what my future will be in 30 mins, much less someone else’s who I have never met, who is a different situation than me, who’s going to a school I have never heard of, in market I’ve never even been to what their life is going to be like in 3+ years. I guess I tend to defer  and prefer to hear it from the horse’s mouth than just chalk everything up to common wisdom.
 
Common wisdom would have said: A) I’d never get into a law school, B- I would never make through law school, C- I would graduate at the bottom of my class, D- I would never get a job from my law school. If I had listen to common wisdom I would have made some really dumb decisions for myself based on what people who are not me, not in my position told me life would be like. I’m pretty glad at this point I did not listen to them. Maybe Whitter is full of people who wished they listened to the common wisdom and did not go there, I dunno, but I bet there are at least some folks who went there and reached their personal goals. I for one am in no position to be casting the first stone however, so I won’t tell other people what their life is going to be like when I can’t even control my own.

I wish we had more students from T4 schools so would could actually here first had experiences, but I can see why, with thread like this, they don’t stick around log to share their experiences.   



OMG.
Matthies.
You are seriously my favorite person on these boards.

When you graduate, please lemme know your contact info, because I want YOU to be MY lawyer. haha.
Seriously.

LOL thanks!
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: Good Teacher on May 27, 2009, 03:39:04 PM
I don't think we need to fall victim to relativism though.  There are some suggestions that are wise.  GENERALLY, I believe that having more options is much more valuable than having fewer options, which is why I think it is sage advice to tell someone to aim high when applying to law schools.

Well I look at it like this. I don’t even know where Whitter is. The common wisdom is thought that if you go there your screwed. Ok, fine, but where is this common wisdom coming from? People who go to Whitter or Cooley or Idaho or South Dakota or some other T4? No, its not. Too bad we don’t have more posters on here from T4 schools to give us first hand experiences. But we don’t maybe because if we did all their threads would turn into three pages of everyone telling them how much they suck and they would leave and never come back.

We have a lot of posters from T2 schools and above and at least one from everyone of the top 14 schools (some have many posters). But as far as I know, no one who actually goes to Whitter or Cooley. Like I said, I don’t even know where Whitter is. So I’ll save my judgment on the schools and ones prospects.

We can I think generally agree that going to a T4 school puts you at a disadvantage over going to a higher ranked school. I don’t think it’s as cut and dried as many make it out to be however, epically when your talking local schools. Why do I believe that, not because anyone told me, but simply because that’s been my own personal experience. I mean I had a lot of people tell me how hard it was going to be finding a job going to a T2 school. Well for me that has not been the case at all.

My point is yes there is common wisdom, but at what point to we take someone else’s opinion to be fact that has not had any personal experience whith the subject he speaks with authority on? My cousins, brother’s dog groomer went there so I know everything about it? I mean does anyone here bashing this kid go to a T4? Has anyone here tried to get a job from Whitter, graduated from there, looked for jobs in Orange County? No. Instead we have people who don’t go to these schools and places like JD Underground again full of people who did not go to these schools telling people as if its fact what will happen to them if they go to these schools.

Hell I have enough problems telling what my future will be in 30 mins, much less someone else’s who I have never met, who is a different situation than me, who’s going to a school I have never heard of, in market I’ve never even been to what their life is going to be like in 3+ years. I guess I tend to defer  and prefer to hear it from the horse’s mouth than just chalk everything up to common wisdom.
 
Common wisdom would have said: A) I’d never get into a law school, B- I would never make through law school, C- I would graduate at the bottom of my class, D- I would never get a job from my law school. If I had listen to common wisdom I would have made some really dumb decisions for myself based on what people who are not me, not in my position told me life would be like. I’m pretty glad at this point I did not listen to them. Maybe Whitter is full of people who wished they listened to the common wisdom and did not go there, I dunno, but I bet there are at least some folks who went there and reached their personal goals. I for one am in no position to be casting the first stone however, so I won’t tell other people what their life is going to be like when I can’t even control my own.

I wish we had more students from T4 schools so would could actually here first had experiences, but I can see why, with thread like this, they don’t stick around log to share their experiences.   



OMG.
Matthies.
You are seriously my favorite person on these boards.

When you graduate, please lemme know your contact info, because I want YOU to be MY lawyer. haha.
Seriously.

I agree.  Matthies is quite the wise one.  I think "mature and experienced" is also a great way to describe this gent. :-)
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: allaboutlydia on June 07, 2009, 08:29:11 PM
hello allaboutlydia, I have to correct you due to the fact that you are wrong. You said below that Whittier does not accept students without a bachelors degree. You are wrong. Whittier does in fact accept students withouta  bachelors degree. Here is the link to the facts taken from whittier's website itself. http://www.law.whittier.edu/pstudents/admissions/admissions.html#special
Also, I am going to repost what you posted below. You said "Please research your facts before posting inaccurate information." There you go, maybe you should do your own research before you post inaccurate information.  ;)

My information was accurate.  Please re-read the link you posted.  It indicated that there was a special exception made for applicants who were over 35 and passed initial California Bar exceptions.  It also indicated that this was a limited situation.  Thus, these are exceptions and not the rule as you would have everyone believe.  I do not place my faith in World News Rankings and neither should anyone on this board.  Several deans from ivy league schools penned a letter which can be found on lsac's site indicating that the rankings are not relevant.  They maintain that many schools are riding on their reputation without any progress made to their legal curriculum.  My friend was accepted into Loyola Law School.  According to her stats she should not have been accepted.  She had a LSAT score of 138 and a low GPA.  She met the dean at some law school forum, chatted him up and he assured her she would be accepted.  She freely admits that no way should she have been accepted into this school.  Now here we are 4 years later (she want part time) and she just took the February bar and failed.  On the other hand, another friend went to a 4 tier school and passed the bar on her first try.  John Kennedy, Jr attended an ivy league law school and failed the bar three times.  I have friends who graduated from Columbia and NYU who failed the bar several times.  I don't think law school rankings tell the entire story.  World News is in the business of selling magazines.  It is not in the business of legal education.  I was shocked to learn that Harvard grads are having a hard time finding employment.  I decided to do some research.  I called 25 large firms.  Among them were Weil, Gotschal, White & Case, Paul Hastings, Skadden, Arps, Jones Day, Fried, Frank, Harris & Shriver, etc and spoke to their recruitment department. I  wanted to know what were the chances of someone from a 3 or 4 tier school obtaining employment at their firms.  I've saved the email responses from several of these recruiting managers.  They all overwhelmingly informed me that one should not rely on school rank, particularly national rank to glide you into the door.  They look at grades, internships and overall what sort of legal talent would you bring to their firm.  This was especially true for firms with regional offices who hired new associates from regional law schools. The dean at University Detroit Mercy wanted to give his students a fighting chance.  Aware that his school was listed as a "4" tier school he created the law firm program. An article on this school appeared in the Wall Street Journal How Obscure Law School Places Grads at Top Firms.   I have seen Southwestern (a school I respect) drop in it's rankings.  It's just not fair or mature to base one's destiny on the choice of where one attends school.  The job market is tight and employers are looking for smart attorneys.  You can't rely on "looking good on paper" you have to show you can produce.  It's interesting to me that someone would come on this board and ask people who DON'T ATTEND any of these schools which one is harder?  Considering that most reading and responding to these posts are not attorneys it is asking the  blind to lead the blind.  So for those who are brave, energetic and intelligent prospective lawyers avoid the know-it-alls who really know nothinga and think outside the box.  You'll have to be a bit more imaginative, work harder and be a trail blazer.  Don't let anyone keep you in a box.  Stop putting people in a box.  Reginald Lewis founder and CEO of Beatrice foods didn't even take the LSAT and Harvard admitted him.
Title: Re: Cooley or Whittier?
Post by: allaboutlydia on June 07, 2009, 08:36:16 PM
Well I look at it like this. I don’t even know where Whitter is. The common wisdom is thought that if you go there your screwed. Ok, fine, but where is this common wisdom coming from? People who go to Whitter or Cooley or Idaho or South Dakota or some other T4? No, its not. Too bad we don’t have more posters on here from T4 schools to give us first hand experiences. But we don’t maybe because if we did all their threads would turn into three pages of everyone telling them how much they suck and they would leave and never come back.

We have a lot of posters from T2 schools and above and at least one from everyone of the top 14 schools (some have many posters). But as far as I know, no one who actually goes to Whitter or Cooley. Like I said, I don’t even know where Whitter is. So I’ll save my judgment on the schools and ones prospects.

We can I think generally agree that going to a T4 school puts you at a disadvantage over going to a higher ranked school. I don’t think it’s as cut and dried as many make it out to be however, epically when your talking local schools. Why do I believe that, not because anyone told me, but simply because that’s been my own personal experience. I mean I had a lot of people tell me how hard it was going to be finding a job going to a T2 school. Well for me that has not been the case at all.

My point is yes there is common wisdom, but at what point to we take someone else’s opinion to be fact that has not had any personal experience whith the subject he speaks with authority on? My cousins, brother’s dog groomer went there so I know everything about it? I mean does anyone here bashing this kid go to a T4? Has anyone here tried to get a job from Whitter, graduated from there, looked for jobs in Orange County? No. Instead we have people who don’t go to these schools and places like JD Underground again full of people who did not go to these schools telling people as if its fact what will happen to them if they go to these schools.

Hell I have enough problems telling what my future will be in 30 mins, much less someone else’s who I have never met, who is a different situation than me, who’s going to a school I have never heard of, in market I’ve never even been to what their life is going to be like in 3+ years. I guess I tend to defer  and prefer to hear it from the horse’s mouth than just chalk everything up to common wisdom.
 
Common wisdom would have said: A) I’d never get into a law school, B- I would never make through law school, C- I would graduate at the bottom of my class, D- I would never get a job from my law school. If I had listen to common wisdom I would have made some really dumb decisions for myself based on what people who are not me, not in my position told me life would be like. I’m pretty glad at this point I did not listen to them. Maybe Whitter is full of people who wished they listened to the common wisdom and did not go there, I dunno, but I bet there are at least some folks who went there and reached their personal goals. I for one am in no position to be casting the first stone however, so I won’t tell other people what their life is going to be like when I can’t even control my own.

I wish we had more students from T4 schools so would could actually here first had experiences, but I can see why, with thread like this, they don’t stick around log to share their experiences.   


Matthies - you rock.  We need more sound and mature heads like you on these boards.