Law School Discussion

Law Students => Current Law Students => Topic started by: HaveYouHeard1 on May 04, 2009, 06:31:04 PM

Title: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: HaveYouHeard1 on May 04, 2009, 06:31:04 PM
It seems like Third Tier law schools can do nothing right. In this semesterís Drake University Law School Business Associations exam taught by Professor Doreís, the pages in the exam packets were so woefully out of order that students taking the exam were completely unaware of the last two and most heavily weighted questions on the exam. The pages preceding the last two pages containing those questions were actually a repeat of the ďinstructions pageĒ (incompetently inserted into some students packets at least three times) making it appear that the students were almost finished when there were actually 2 more pages waiting for them. In other words, as the students were looking through the pages and saw the repeat of the instructions they assumed the torture was almost over. By the time Dean Henin and other students realized the error, the students had an hour to answer questions with suggested times totaling an hour and half. Not big deal if it happened to everyone right? Think again. In another stroke of Third Tier School genius, 2L and 3L exams are self-scheduledónever mind the concerns about cheating because that would be too obviousóso only a few (un)lucky ones were affected while everyone else gets to pleasure of taking the exam without having to play scavenger hunt for questions.
 
The Deans havenít issued a resolution to problem but it wouldnít be surprising if they blamed the error on a Third Tier copy machine.
 
In this economyófilled with associate deferrals, layoffs, and forced pay-cutsóstudents at smaller Third Tier schools like Drake are already at a disadvantage in a secondary market like Iowa.  Letís hope the Deans donít punish the responsible students who prepared diligently for the exam to take it early while letting procrastinating members of the course enjoy the benefit of a correctly proctored exam earned on the backs of an unlucky few, like myself.
 
-Anonymous
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 04, 2009, 07:00:04 PM
I'm sorry this happened to you, but as exam mishaps go, this is nothing. I've heard about proctors whose timing is off by an hour, lights and electricity going out, and other total disasters.

In any case, I learned early on to skim the entire exam before starting to write, and I urge you to do the same next time. 

Finally, people who take a self-scheduled exam later than you aren't "procrastinators."  They may be taking other exams, and they may be diligently studying for an exam you rushed to get out of the way.  I feel sorry for someone so filled with bitterness that she needs to put her classmates down like this.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 04, 2009, 07:15:18 PM
In fairness, you probably wouldn't see this as "nothing" if it were affecting your career instead of OPs. 

IMHO:  when profs f*ck up exams and it can be shown that not all students experienced the same degree of f*ck up, this should be taken into account.  Law school exams are timed for a reason.  It is not fair for some to have less time than others because of an administrative snafu.

Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on May 04, 2009, 07:25:14 PM
They didn't actually have less time, though.

If the instructions don't include the number of questions and how they're weighted/how you should distribute your time, I can't imagine any reason you wouldn't page through the exam to figure out how you should do so. Administrative errors happen (I sincerely doubt this was actually an error on the part of the professor, unless the professor really loves writing instruction pages or has an itchy copy/paste finger), and, while the school has a responsibility to provide students with accurate and complete exams, it is also true that each test taker is in a position to make sure that they have a complete exam.

Also, I really don't understand why seeing repeat pages would make you think the exam was almost over, rather than make you think there was something wrong with the copy job that should probably be addressed.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ToTransferOrNot on May 04, 2009, 07:27:57 PM
This certainly sucks, but for christ's sake. You're in law school.

I learned in 3rd grade to skim through an entire test before I started on the first question. Gives you an idea of which question is testing what so that you don't get off track, and avoids things like this happening. 3rd grade. No one had to teach me to do it- I learned it myself, and thought it kind of odd when teachers started suggesting this as a strategy later in life. How can you have taken enough tests to get you to law school, but not know to skim through the whole test?

Doesn't make the snafu any less awful, but what exactly do you expect them to do? Give you all a bump in your grade? Ignore the last question in calculating grades for the class? Have everyone take a new exam? Not fair, certainly agree, but you should have a suggestion for how to handle the situation.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: 2LandBACK on May 04, 2009, 07:32:21 PM
It's easy for us to say that you should skim through the exam but in the heat and stress of a law school exam something like that could really mess you up. I don't know how confusing it was but if it was confusing enough no question it would throw you off. If it's fixed for everyone else, there is no way you could say the exam was fair
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 04, 2009, 07:39:20 PM
In fairness, you probably wouldn't see this as "nothing" if it were affecting your career instead of OPs. 

Luckily for me, it wouldn't affect my career because I would have read through the entire exam and figured out how to allot my time.

IMHO:  when profs f*ck up exams and it can be shown that not all students experienced the same degree of f*ck up, this should be taken into account.  Law school exams are timed for a reason.  It is not fair for some to have less time than others because of an administrative snafu.

There's no indication that the professor screwed up the exam or that some students had less time than others.  The OP spent less time than other students on the last question(s).  She also presumably spent more time than the others on the first question.  That's too bad.

I do agree that a generous professor would take into account the OP's experience when evaluating her answer to the last essay question(s) and perhaps give her a bit of a bump.  Some professors add a few points for "overall exam quality" or something, and this might be a fair place to adjust for the OP's difficulty with the poorly copied exam.  But that's it.  It's not as if the exam was missing pages or had incomprehensible gibberish inserted in the middle (as one of mine did).  The pages were out of order and there were a few extra instruction sheets.  I would definitely classify this as more of a bummer than a tragedy.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on May 04, 2009, 07:42:46 PM
What in life is fair?

Things like this happen. There are things that you can and should do to make sure the impact on you is minimal when they do. It makes sense to do those things. If you don't do those things, and something like this does happen, there is no way of going back and making things perfectly fair. There may be ways to mitigate the damage, but you're not going to make it perfectly fair.

At my school, the proctors tell us how many pages there should be and have us check the page numbers at the bottom of the page before we begin to make sure we have all of the pages and that they're in the correct order. Perhaps, in light of this incident, the students should suggest that the school institute such a policy.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 04, 2009, 07:47:36 PM
LOL.

I was going to add a snarky comment to my previous post about how learning to be a lawyer has to do with eliminating your sense of empathy for others and using every possible advantage for your own personal gain. 

Glad to see I didn't have to bother.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 04, 2009, 07:51:09 PM
LOL.

I was going to add a snarky comment to my previous post about how learning to be a lawyer has to do with eliminating your sense of empathy for others and using every possible advantage for your own personal gain. 

Glad to see I didn't have to bother.

It's rich to classify me and SBA as lacking in empathy when the OP insulted her fellow students for doing nothing more than scheduling their exams at a different time.

Frankly, I have trouble working my empathy up for someone who is so bitter and competitive, especially when she had opportunities for self-help that she didn't take.  That said, I readily admitted that this was a bummer and that a generous professor would somehow account for the administrative error in the grading.  What more do you want?
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on May 04, 2009, 07:53:30 PM
There's a difference between lacking empathy and acknowledging that most things are not entirely fair. Also, you'll note that I mentioned that there may be ways to mitigate the damage, and if the school can come up with some way to do so, good for them.

At some point, people are going to have to start taking responsibility for themselves, rather than whining every time something happens that seems unfair.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 04, 2009, 07:54:37 PM
Thank you, counselor.  That will be all.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: gators191 on May 04, 2009, 09:32:20 PM
Exactly Susan. Personal responsibility.  Drake gets $30k out of those students a year and they cant staple pages sequentially?
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 04, 2009, 09:48:33 PM
Exactly Susan. Personal responsibility.  Drake gets $30k out of those students a year and they cant staple pages sequentially?

No one is arguing that it wasn't a stupid error.  The question is, what should the school or the professor do about it?  Obviously, the OP thinks that the curve should somehow be adjusted because she didn't devote the proper amount of time to each question.  That doesn't seem fair to the other students who read through the exam carefully and allotted their time before beginning to write.  It also doesn't seem fair to students who spent comparatively less time on the first question, on which the OP concentrated. 
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on May 04, 2009, 09:49:21 PM
Exactly Susan. Personal responsibility.  Drake gets $30k out of those students a year and they cant staple pages sequentially?


the school has a responsibility to provide students with accurate and complete exams
Also, you'll note that I mentioned that there may be ways to mitigate the damage, and if the school can come up with some way to do so, good for them.

You might also note that I proposed a procedure change that could help prevent such cases in the future, because, at this point, there's little that can be done. For the record, though, I hope the school can find some way to deal with this that accounts for the issue that is also as fair as possible to students who take the exam later.

I have never maintained that the school isn't responsible for the error; however, the students had the ability, and the responsibility to themselves, to make sure that their exams were complete and correct to the best of their ability. This is not a dramatic miscarriage of justice; it is an unfortunate administrative error, and one that yes, may affect individuals negatively. It is not fair that students who take the exam later won't have to deal with the hassle. But it is also not something that it should be difficult for students to detect and deal with in a manner that doesn't require some adjustment of the grading scheme for the exam after the fact because of a reproduction error that was obvious to everyone taking the exam. (And yes, one would hope that it was obvious to the person responsible for assembling the exams, but the fact remains that it was not caught.)
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: hb0312 on May 04, 2009, 09:59:12 PM
I totally agree Gators.  Personal responsibility...all the way.  Nice name by the way
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: gators191 on May 04, 2009, 10:06:07 PM
When you pay someone to fix your car, do you check it over before you drive it? Or do you assume they did their job, fixed it, and drive away?

No further questions.

Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: gators191 on May 04, 2009, 10:07:41 PM
Go Gators!
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on May 04, 2009, 10:08:42 PM
When you pay someone to fix your car, do you check it over before you drive it? Or do you assume they did their job, fixed it, and drive away?

No further questions.



Oh goodness, but that's persuasive!

Nicely done.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: hb0312 on May 04, 2009, 10:18:13 PM
Are those legwarmers on that hedgehog?
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on May 04, 2009, 10:51:17 PM
Are those legwarmers on that hedgehog?

Casts! He was injured in a freak exam-stapling accident :(
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: armyjag on May 05, 2009, 05:03:36 AM
I guess they forgot about the nondelegable duty doctrine from Torts 1?
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 05, 2009, 08:48:33 AM
The school should give some kind of concession to those whose tests were incorrectly formatted. 

There is NO REASON for any differences in the format for exams given to students taking the same test.  The only reason is ERROR.  Such differences are, at least plausibly, distraction-causing.  On that basis alone, concessions should be made. 

The only reasonable argument to the contrary IS NOT that all students are responsible for checking their tests, it is that the formatting errors did not affect performance on the tests.  In a timed examination where any distraction can have an impact, this argument is dubious.

The "personal responsibilty" argument holds water only if all students were given tests of the same format.  In that case, no student could argue that failure to understand the format put him/her at a disadvantage with respect to other students.  As it is, there is no way to refute the contention that the format for some was more distracting than the format for others.  That is unacceptable and should be corrected.

One of the things I really dislike about the legal field are all these people who are so quick to cry "personal responsibility" when it comes to others when you KNOW they'd be kicking and screaming (and probably suing) if the misfortune were their own.  The practice of law either attracts or creates these kinds of personalities, I'm not sure which.   
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ToTransferOrNot on May 05, 2009, 08:53:47 AM
Actually, one of my tests first semester had a similar page disorder to it. Guess what? Because I knew test-taking 101, it didn't impact me. I was nice enough to tell the proctor so that it didn't screw up other people either, for that matter.


You keep saying "the school should make some kind of concession!" What concession would that be?
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: goaliechica on May 05, 2009, 08:54:19 AM
you KNOW they'd be kicking and screaming (and probably suing) if the misfortune were their own. 

 :D

Yeah, okay.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 05, 2009, 08:58:24 AM
Actually, one of my tests first semester had a similar page disorder to it. Guess what? Because I knew test-taking 101, it didn't impact me. I was nice enough to tell the proctor so that it didn't screw up other people either, for that matter.


You keep saying "the school should make some kind of concession!" What concession would that be?

Yes, you're a genius AND a saint.  Congratulations.


Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: StevePirates on May 05, 2009, 09:02:54 AM
I think the real issue here is that the school allows for self scheduling of exams.  How can that not be rife with abuse?  To then change an exam in the middle of exam week so that some people see one version and other see a different one.  That is problematic.

Even if everyone reads through all pages, the one in order will take less time to interpret since it is in correct order.  The out of order pages require people to flip through and figure out where each one goes, to make sure they haven't missed anything.

I think that the people in the first exam will have a lower average.  That sucks, unfortunately the solutions are all worse than the problem, because they would hurt the rest of the class.  Pity about that maladministration.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 05, 2009, 09:04:17 AM
Yeah, I agree that self-scheduling the exams is crazy.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on May 05, 2009, 09:10:44 AM
You know what I really don't like about a certain segment of the law school population? The childish impulse to freak out and cast aspersions and demand some form of compensation any time something seems remotely unfair.

Mistakes and errors happen. You deal with them. I have no problem with the students working with the administration about this, although I remain skeptical about how much it should actually have impacted them. That does not require running to the internet and creating a username on a forum to proclaim that the faculty (who undoubtedly had nothing to do with the error) screwed up, and creating weird justifications for why you didn't figure out the problem in time to devote the time you would have liked to all of the questions that you should have known were there in the first place. I seriously can't even fathom the thought process that goes "Oh, here's three extra copies of the instruction page...I MUST BE ALMOST DONE! WOO!"

Again, for like the seventeenth time, yes, it's the school's fault, and if they can think of some way to limit the unfairness, bully for them. The whining and complaining and casting of stones is childish and out of proportion.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 05, 2009, 09:13:36 AM
"Mistakes and errors happen. You deal with them"

(emphasis added)

quod erat demonstrandum
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on May 05, 2009, 09:14:46 AM
"Mistakes and errors happen. You deal with them"

(emphasis added)

Exactly as I was saying...

Right. Whatever.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 05, 2009, 09:18:45 AM
Look, I'm a realist and I understand that most people don't get ahead by playing on a level playing field.  Still, I find the faux moralistic pretenses about "personal responsibility" grating.  You're not fooling any one except, possibly, yourself.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ToTransferOrNot on May 05, 2009, 09:23:10 AM
Doesn't require any particular intellect to do what third graders know how to do. Doesn't require a saint, either; I wanted to make sure my intuition was correct, and I didnt feel like having the proctor interrupt me in a panic 2 hours in to the exam.

As I think more about this, I have less and less sympathy for someone in law school that doesn't realize there is something wrong with this picture.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on May 05, 2009, 09:24:16 AM
It's not moralistic, it's pragmatic. *&^% like this happens. You can protect yourself at the time, and do what you can to mitigate damages, or you can not take sensible steps and then complain after about the vast injustice perpetrated against you and try to get someone to give you cookies and/or extra points on an exam.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 05, 2009, 09:32:57 AM
It's not moralistic, it's pragmatic. poo like this happens. You can protect yourself at the time, and do what you can to mitigate damages, or you can not take sensible steps and then complain after about the vast injustice perpetrated against you and try to get someone to give you cookies and/or extra points on an exam.

The only way your argument could be viewed as "pragmatic" is that it prevents the administration from having to deal with the situation.  Your argument places the burden on the students to make sure their tests are correctly and fairly administered.  That may decrease the burden on the institution, but it's also placing the responsibility on the shoulders of those least involved with the administrative process, those who know the least about the exam format (test-takers, by definition, do not see the exam before its administration, nor do they see the exams of other test-takers for comparison) and who have the least amount of time to deal with the situation.  That's counter-intuitive, at the very least. 

It's a pretty clear cut case of students being given exams with different and possibly distracting formats.  No one said it was a "vast injustice," but some said it was a mistake that caused some to be disadvantaged.  Some further argued that such mistakes should be corrected.  You argued that the mistakes were the responsibility of the students to find and correct because of your (no doubt universally applied, ;)) doctrine of personal responsibility. I think that's a bunch of crap.   
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 05, 2009, 09:37:55 AM
Doesn't require any particular intellect to do what third graders know how to do. Doesn't require a saint, either; I wanted to make sure my intuition was correct, and I didnt feel like having the proctor interrupt me in a panic 2 hours in to the exam.

As I think more about this, I have less and less sympathy for someone in law school that doesn't realize there is something wrong with this picture.

I think you've demonstrated to within a hair's breadth of certainty that anything you can do "Doesn't require any particular intellect."

;)
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: gators191 on May 05, 2009, 09:41:11 AM
It's not moralistic, it's pragmatic. poo like this happens. You can protect yourself at the time, and do what you can to mitigate damages, or you can not take sensible steps and then complain after about the vast injustice perpetrated against you and try to get someone to give you cookies and/or extra points on an exam.

The only way your argument could be viewed as "pragmatic" is that it prevents the administration from having to deal with the situation.  Your argument places the burden on the students to make sure their tests are correctly and fairly administered.  That may decrease the burden on the institution, but it's also placing the responsibility on the shoulders of those least involved with the administrative process, those who know the least about the exam format (test-takers, by definition, do not see the exams before its administration, nor do they see those of other test-takers) and who have the least amount of time to deal with the situation.  That's counter-intuitive, at the very least. 

It's a pretty clear cut case of students being given exams with different and possibly distracting formats.  No one said it was a "vast injustice," but some said it was a mistake that caused some to be disadvantaged.  Some further argued that such mistakes should be corrected.  You argued that the mistakes were the responsibility of the students to find and correct because of your (no doubt universally applied, ;)) doctrine of personal responsibility. I think that's a bunch of crap.   

Agreed!!  
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: gators191 on May 05, 2009, 09:42:43 AM
It's not moralistic, it's pragmatic. poo like this happens. You can protect yourself at the time, and do what you can to mitigate damages, or you can not take sensible steps and then complain after about the vast injustice perpetrated against you and try to get someone to give you cookies and/or extra points on an exam.

You are right and we call this a claim for negligence in the legal field.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on May 05, 2009, 09:43:59 AM
I didn't say that the school shouldn't try to correct it. In fact, I said several times that the school should try to correct it. Nice attempt at mischaracterization, though. Or was it simply a failure to read what I actually said?

For the seventeenth time, yes, it is the school's fault. Yes, they should do what they can do to correct it. Yes, it never should have happened. That does not mean that the OP doesn't take totally unreasonable and bizarre position, and it does not mean that when you get an exam, you shouldn't look it over to make sure everything is there, because what is an easy fix at the beginning of the exam becomes, as we have seen, a decidedly less easy fix at the end or after the fact.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 05, 2009, 09:45:51 AM
There's a difference between lacking empathy and acknowledging that most things are not entirely fair. Also, you'll note that I mentioned that there may be ways to mitigate the damage, and if the school can come up with some way to do so, good for them.

At some point, people are going to have to start taking responsibility for themselves, rather than whining every time something happens that seems unfair.

(emphasis added)

I've heard that Ginko tablets improve memory.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 05, 2009, 09:47:28 AM
Exactly Susan. Personal responsibility.  Drake gets $30k out of those students a year and they cant staple pages sequentially?


the school has a responsibility to provide students with accurate and complete exams
Also, you'll note that I mentioned that there may be ways to mitigate the damage, and if the school can come up with some way to do so, good for them.

You might also note that I proposed a procedure change that could help prevent such cases in the future, because, at this point, there's little that can be done. For the record, though, I hope the school can find some way to deal with this that accounts for the issue that is also as fair as possible to students who take the exam later.

I have never maintained that the school isn't responsible for the error; however, the students had the ability, and the responsibility to themselves, to make sure that their exams were complete and correct to the best of their ability. This is not a dramatic miscarriage of justice; it is an unfortunate administrative error, and one that yes, may affect individuals negatively. It is not fair that students who take the exam later won't have to deal with the hassle. But it is also not something that it should be difficult for students to detect and deal with in a manner that doesn't require some adjustment of the grading scheme for the exam after the fact because of a reproduction error that was obvious to everyone taking the exam. (And yes, one would hope that it was obvious to the person responsible for assembling the exams, but the fact remains that it was not caught.)

(emphasis added)
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on May 05, 2009, 09:50:07 AM
None of those statements are at odds with what I've said.

But I'm done here. Enjoy.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 05, 2009, 09:50:33 AM
http://www.activeherb.com/faq/ginkgo_faq.shtml

See, in particular, #10.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: goaliechica on May 05, 2009, 09:53:47 AM
ISUCKATTHIS, can you please provide an affirmative proposal for what you think should happen?
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 05, 2009, 10:03:21 AM
ISUCKATTHIS, can you please provide an affirmative proposal for what you think should happen?

That's a much harder question and I am not qualified to address it.  I'll take a stab anyway.

In order to answer this question comprehensively, you'd have to know how many students were affected.

Probably the best solution, if it is possible, is to curve separately those students taking the test under different conditions.  That would mean having a separate curve for all those students whose exams were misformatted.  The obvious problem with this idea is that there may be an insufficient number of such students to form a normal distribution. 

Another, less fair solution would be to re-weight the questions for all or a portion of the students according to their exam's format.  Students with the proper format would get the exams with the original weighting scheme, students with an improper format would get a weighting scheme that compensated for their misallocation of time during the exam.  This would mean de-emphasizing the latter two questions in the weighting scheme.

Finally, if all else fails, one or all of the following imperfect solutions could be applied:  1) the formatting and/or organization of essay answers to the latter two questions could be officially disregarded by the administration in the grading process (i.e., grading for content only), 2) students with misformatted exams could be given compensatory points or 3) the last two questions could be disregarded in the grading process.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: goaliechica on May 05, 2009, 10:09:51 AM
ISUCKATTHIS, can you please provide an affirmative proposal for what you think should happen?

That's a much harder question and I am not qualified to address it.  I'll take a stab anyway.

Probably the best solution, if it is possible, is to curve separately those students taking the test under different conditions.  That would mean having a separate curve for all those students whose exams were misformatted.  The obvious probablem with this idea is that there may be an insufficient number of such students to form a normal distribution.  This would mean de-emphasizing the latter two questions in the weighting scheme.

Another, less fair solution would be to re-weight the questions for all or a portion of the students according to their exam's format.  Students with the proper format would get the exams with the original weighting scheme, students with an improper format would get a weighting scheme that compensated for their misallocation of time during the exam. 

Finally, if all else fails, one or all of the following imperfect solutions could be applied:  1) the formatting and/or organization of essay answers to the latter two questions could be officially disregarded by the administration in the grading process (i.e., grading for content only), 2) students with misformatted exams could be given compensatory points or 3) the last two questions could be disregarded in the grading process.

I have a strong suspicion that the number of students who consider themselves to have taken the exam under detrimentally different conditions is exactly one, but whatever. Cady said that the student was welcome to ask for a solution, but that most of the solutions were not going to be very adequate or reasonable. Which remains true.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 05, 2009, 10:11:04 AM
But, on second thought, Susan B is right.  There is absolutely nothing that can be done and those dickweasels who failed to correct their exam format deserve poor grades and resulting unemployment because they are losers.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: goaliechica on May 05, 2009, 10:13:07 AM
But, on second thought, Susan B is right.  There is absolutely nothing that can be done and those dickweasels who failed to correct their exam format deserve to poor grades and resulting unemployment because they are losers.

 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

That is exactly what anyone said. Yep.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 05, 2009, 10:13:44 AM
ISUCKATTHIS, can you please provide an affirmative proposal for what you think should happen?

That's a much harder question and I am not qualified to address it.  I'll take a stab anyway.

Probably the best solution, if it is possible, is to curve separately those students taking the test under different conditions.  That would mean having a separate curve for all those students whose exams were misformatted.  The obvious probablem with this idea is that there may be an insufficient number of such students to form a normal distribution.  This would mean de-emphasizing the latter two questions in the weighting scheme.

Another, less fair solution would be to re-weight the questions for all or a portion of the students according to their exam's format.  Students with the proper format would get the exams with the original weighting scheme, students with an improper format would get a weighting scheme that compensated for their misallocation of time during the exam. 

Finally, if all else fails, one or all of the following imperfect solutions could be applied:  1) the formatting and/or organization of essay answers to the latter two questions could be officially disregarded by the administration in the grading process (i.e., grading for content only), 2) students with misformatted exams could be given compensatory points or 3) the last two questions could be disregarded in the grading process.

I have a strong suspicion that the number of students who consider themselves to have taken the exam under detrimentally different conditions is exactly one, but whatever. Cady said that the student was welcome to ask for a solution, but that most of the solutions were not going to be very adequate or reasonable. Which remains true.


Well, you got me.  All possible solutions are totally unreasonable, inadequate or both.  

Must be true because you and Cady said so.  And because your "strong suspicions" are worth more than actual knowledge.

 ::)

Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: goaliechica on May 05, 2009, 10:16:21 AM
ISUCKATTHIS, can you please provide an affirmative proposal for what you think should happen?

That's a much harder question and I am not qualified to address it.  I'll take a stab anyway.

Probably the best solution, if it is possible, is to curve separately those students taking the test under different conditions.  That would mean having a separate curve for all those students whose exams were misformatted.  The obvious probablem with this idea is that there may be an insufficient number of such students to form a normal distribution.  This would mean de-emphasizing the latter two questions in the weighting scheme.

Another, less fair solution would be to re-weight the questions for all or a portion of the students according to their exam's format.  Students with the proper format would get the exams with the original weighting scheme, students with an improper format would get a weighting scheme that compensated for their misallocation of time during the exam. 

Finally, if all else fails, one or all of the following imperfect solutions could be applied:  1) the formatting and/or organization of essay answers to the latter two questions could be officially disregarded by the administration in the grading process (i.e., grading for content only), 2) students with misformatted exams could be given compensatory points or 3) the last two questions could be disregarded in the grading process.

I have a strong suspicion that the number of students who consider themselves to have taken the exam under detrimentally different conditions is exactly one, but whatever. Cady said that the student was welcome to ask for a solution, but that most of the solutions were not going to be very adequate or reasonable. Which remains true.


Well, you got me.  All possible solutions are totally unreasonable, inadequate or both.  

Must be true because you and Cady said so.  

 ::)



I think it's time someone finally said it: your username is incredibly apt!  :-*
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 05, 2009, 10:18:30 AM
ISUCKATTHIS, can you please provide an affirmative proposal for what you think should happen?

That's a much harder question and I am not qualified to address it.  I'll take a stab anyway.

Probably the best solution, if it is possible, is to curve separately those students taking the test under different conditions.  That would mean having a separate curve for all those students whose exams were misformatted.  The obvious probablem with this idea is that there may be an insufficient number of such students to form a normal distribution.  This would mean de-emphasizing the latter two questions in the weighting scheme.

Another, less fair solution would be to re-weight the questions for all or a portion of the students according to their exam's format.  Students with the proper format would get the exams with the original weighting scheme, students with an improper format would get a weighting scheme that compensated for their misallocation of time during the exam. 

Finally, if all else fails, one or all of the following imperfect solutions could be applied:  1) the formatting and/or organization of essay answers to the latter two questions could be officially disregarded by the administration in the grading process (i.e., grading for content only), 2) students with misformatted exams could be given compensatory points or 3) the last two questions could be disregarded in the grading process.

I have a strong suspicion that the number of students who consider themselves to have taken the exam under detrimentally different conditions is exactly one, but whatever. Cady said that the student was welcome to ask for a solution, but that most of the solutions were not going to be very adequate or reasonable. Which remains true.


Well, you got me.  All possible solutions are totally unreasonable, inadequate or both.  

Must be true because you and Cady said so.  

 ::)



I think it's time someone finally said it: your username is incredibly apt!  :-*

I can only assume yours is too. 
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 05, 2009, 10:49:13 AM
ISUCKATTHIS, can you please provide an affirmative proposal for what you think should happen?

That's a much harder question and I am not qualified to address it.  I'll take a stab anyway.

Probably the best solution, if it is possible, is to curve separately those students taking the test under different conditions.  That would mean having a separate curve for all those students whose exams were misformatted.  The obvious probablem with this idea is that there may be an insufficient number of such students to form a normal distribution.  This would mean de-emphasizing the latter two questions in the weighting scheme.

Another, less fair solution would be to re-weight the questions for all or a portion of the students according to their exam's format.  Students with the proper format would get the exams with the original weighting scheme, students with an improper format would get a weighting scheme that compensated for their misallocation of time during the exam. 

Finally, if all else fails, one or all of the following imperfect solutions could be applied:  1) the formatting and/or organization of essay answers to the latter two questions could be officially disregarded by the administration in the grading process (i.e., grading for content only), 2) students with misformatted exams could be given compensatory points or 3) the last two questions could be disregarded in the grading process.

I have a strong suspicion that the number of students who consider themselves to have taken the exam under detrimentally different conditions is exactly one, but whatever. Cady said that the student was welcome to ask for a solution, but that most of the solutions were not going to be very adequate or reasonable. Which remains true.


Well, you got me.  All possible solutions are totally unreasonable, inadequate or both.  

Must be true because you and Cady said so.  

 ::)



I think it's time someone finally said it: your username is incredibly apt!  :-*

Actually, I think he's pretty good at this.  You asked him for proposed solutions (something he was not even claiming to be able to provide) and he obliged.  All of the solutions were pretty reasonable.  You dismissed them without offering any reason except your totally unfounded speculation that there wouldn't be enough affected students to form a normal distribution.  Then you told him he sucked and left.

LOL.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 05, 2009, 11:26:47 AM
Dude, it's cool.  I don't think she was getting all into the argument anyway.  Plus I think she was kidding.

Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ToTransferOrNot on May 05, 2009, 12:29:12 PM
Doesn't require any particular intellect to do what third graders know how to do. Doesn't require a saint, either; I wanted to make sure my intuition was correct, and I didnt feel like having the proctor interrupt me in a panic 2 hours in to the exam.

As I think more about this, I have less and less sympathy for someone in law school that doesn't realize there is something wrong with this picture.

I think you've demonstrated to within a hair's breadth of certainty that anything you can do "Doesn't require any particular intellect."

;)

I won't dignify the ad hominem with a response, but I'm glad you agree that making sure that an exam with massive future implications is complete and in the right order doesn't require a high degree of intelligence.

I say again, you keep blathering on about how the school should "do something!" What, precisely, would you have the school do that wouldn't be unfair to all of the students who either A) didn't screw up and fail at checking the exam; or B) took the exam at some later point?

Something to keep in mind for life in general: being able to point out a problem is meaningless unless you have a solution for it.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 05, 2009, 12:31:49 PM
Sorry to burst your bubble, but goaliechica is a man.  I met him in real life in the summer of 2006. He is an illegal immigrant form the Chinandega province of Nicaragua named Joaquin Bustos and uses an oppositely-gendered pseudonym in order to evade immigration authorities.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 05, 2009, 12:34:48 PM
Doesn't require any particular intellect to do what third graders know how to do. Doesn't require a saint, either; I wanted to make sure my intuition was correct, and I didnt feel like having the proctor interrupt me in a panic 2 hours in to the exam.

As I think more about this, I have less and less sympathy for someone in law school that doesn't realize there is something wrong with this picture.

I think you've demonstrated to within a hair's breadth of certainty that anything you can do "Doesn't require any particular intellect."

;)

I won't dignify the ad hominem with a response, but I'm glad you agree that making sure that an exam with massive future implications is complete and in the right order doesn't require a high degree of intelligence.

I say again, you keep blathering on about how the school should "do something!" What, precisely, would you have the school do that wouldn't be unfair to all of the students who either A) didn't screw up and fail at checking the exam; or B) took the exam at some later point?

Something to keep in mind for life in general: being able to point out a problem is meaningless unless you have a solution for it.

You might want to look at my post of several hours ago in which I identify at least five possible solutions, Mother Albert Einstein Theresa.  Shouldn't be that hard, it's quoted at least twice on this page alone.

Something to keep in mind for life in general:  being stupid is bad.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ToTransferOrNot on May 05, 2009, 12:42:09 PM
Doesn't require any particular intellect to do what third graders know how to do. Doesn't require a saint, either; I wanted to make sure my intuition was correct, and I didnt feel like having the proctor interrupt me in a panic 2 hours in to the exam.

As I think more about this, I have less and less sympathy for someone in law school that doesn't realize there is something wrong with this picture.

I think you've demonstrated to within a hair's breadth of certainty that anything you can do "Doesn't require any particular intellect."

;)

To be honest, I didn't see your other posts. That said, I'll be sure to take your "stupid" comment to heart while I'm typing my resume.

That said, my problem with some of your solutions is that they penalize the folks who had the properly formatted exams. That simply isn't a plausible solution. You may argue that the people who failed to check their exams are largely innocent- but if you honestly think that at least a small part of the screwup doesn't fall on them, you're hopeless. The same cannot be said for those who took the exam with the proper formatting (or those who took it with the improper formatting and did what the OP should have done.) They really are 100% innocent here, and punishing them is beyond the pale.

You're right that having a seperate curve for those effected is probably the best solution, if possible. You're also right that it probably isn't possible; generally, classes under 20 or so people aren't curved. I imagine fewer than 20 were effected, but if that isn't true, then that solution (which I'm sure is being considered) would be best.  

Edit: for the record, my solution, if the curve one isn't plausible, is to grade them as they stand. They had extra time on the first question, they should have made some of the lost points up there (it is very rare that anyone gets 100% for any given question- the extra time should have allowed OP to get closer.) Tough lessons to learn, but there isn't any other solution.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 05, 2009, 12:44:37 PM
"You may argue that the people who failed to check their exams are largely innocent- but if you honestly think that at least a small part of the screwup doesn't fall on them, you're hopeless."

They failed to correct the administration's mistake, yes. But, then, so did everybody else in the room, including the proctors, the professor and the students with the correctly formatted exams. 

"I imagine fewer than 20 were effected, but if that isn't true, then that solution (which I'm sure is being considered) would be best."

You mean "affected."  The above is pure speculation based on nothing.  Aside from the grammatical correction, it doesn't merit being addressed.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ToTransferOrNot on May 05, 2009, 12:46:08 PM
"You may argue that the people who failed to check their exams are largely innocent- but if you honestly think that at least a small part of the screwup doesn't fall on them, you're hopeless."

They failed to correct the administration's mistake, yes. But, then, so did everybody else in the room, including the proctors, the professor and the students with the correctly formatted exams. 

The students who had the correctly formatted exams would have no way of knowing there was anything to correct. That is why punishing them in any way is absolutely beyond the pale- they are the only innocent group in this situation.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 05, 2009, 12:49:59 PM
"You may argue that the people who failed to check their exams are largely innocent- but if you honestly think that at least a small part of the screwup doesn't fall on them, you're hopeless."

They failed to correct the administration's mistake, yes. But, then, so did everybody else in the room, including the proctors, the professor and the students with the correctly formatted exams. 

The students who had the correctly formatted exams would have no way of knowing there was anything to correct. That is why punishing them in any way is absolutely beyond the pale- they are the only innocent group in this situation.

The group with the misformatted exams is not "guilty" of anything.  They are just as innocent as the group with the correctly formatted exams.  You're just talking nonsense now.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ToTransferOrNot on May 05, 2009, 12:57:13 PM
You honestly believe that they are completely free of guilt for not making sure there exam was formatted correctly?!

Hahahaha, oh, good lord. I mean, I can understand thinking it was a somewhat understandable oversight. I can understand having more sympathy for them than I have. But you honestly believe that they had absolutely no responsibility to inquire further?

That essentially ends the conversation, because there is no way to get around the foolishness of that position. The number of jobs that would get you fired from ("Well boss, it seemed like something may have been wrong with the client file was incomplete, but I didn't think to check because I was stressed and under time pressue." Response: "Oh, that's unfortunate. You're still fired.") alone demonstrates how untenable the position is, so I won't get in to all of the other times in life that a lack of dilligence will screw people over, regardless of how "unfair" it may be.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 05, 2009, 01:00:37 PM
"That essentially ends the conversation"

Thank Christ.  I hope this conversation hasn't "effected" your self esteem. 

Good day.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ToTransferOrNot on May 05, 2009, 01:33:15 PM
Mah publik skoolin didnt include no fanci "grammerz."

It is an awfully good thing that I can write well where it counts, apparently: law school final exams, personal statements, cover letters and seminar papers (notice what I did thar with the proper comma use in a sequential list with more than three items? I'm not sure tho, maybey i was suppozed to use a semi-colon instead lolz.)

My incorrect use of "effect" instead of "affect" will, however, haunt my internet persona forever.

In conclusion, this has been one of the more entertaining distractions I have had from studying from my final exams, but I had better get back to making sure my worst grade comes because I wrote over the word limit on an exam. I would hate to make a more serious mistake on any of my finals, such as not leaving myself enough time to answer some of the questions because I was... oh, I don't know, uncomfortable with the doctrine or something.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 05, 2009, 01:36:13 PM
I'm sure that would never happen to you.  And, if it did, that it would be somebody else's fault.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: StevePirates on May 06, 2009, 11:57:25 AM
It is an awfully good thing that I can write well where it counts, apparently: law school final exams, personal statements, cover letters and seminar papers (notice what I did thar with the proper comma use in a sequential list with more than three items? I'm not sure tho, maybey i was suppozed to use a semi-colon instead lolz.)

Shouldn't there be a commma after "cover letters"? 
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: jacy85 on May 06, 2009, 05:47:53 PM
Not necessarily.  Although personally, I'm a fan of the oxford comma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma)
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Kiwiki on May 07, 2009, 02:18:31 AM
Holy hell this thread is rife with exam period moodiness.  :o

Students who didn't check the contents/format of the exam to help allocate their time wisely deserve what they get.  Time management is something that most law school exams test.  The extra instruction pages given to the first students were only unfair insofar as they required those students to take one extra (and pretty minor) mental step in deciding how to allocate the time than was required of the students who did not have the extra instruction pages.  I don't think that is enough of a difference in requirements to warrant special grading procedures.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 07, 2009, 08:55:04 AM
Holy hell this thread is rife with exam period moodiness.  :o

Students who didn't check the contents/format of the exam to help allocate their time wisely deserve what they get.  Time management is something that most law school exams test.  The extra instruction pages given to the first students were only unfair insofar as they required those students to take one extra (and pretty minor) mental step in deciding how to allocate the time than was required of the students who did not have the extra instruction pages.  I don't think that is enough of a difference in requirements to warrant special grading procedures.

I disagree that it would be minor, but I respect your opinion and accept that this is the best way to argue against my position. 

Another thing law school exams test is performance under pressure.  Screwing with the exam format and making it more confusing can create more pressure and even cause some to panic.  That's okay across the board, I think, if everybody is subjected to the same pressure.  It's not okay if they aren't.  I don't think there is any way to measure how much confusion/pressure/panic screwing with the exam format ought to cause.  This would probably vary with student.  Then, I think the safe assumption would be that it should cause some confusion/pressure/panic and that the playing field is not level.

Obviously, there would be a limit to this approach.  Putting the staple on different parts of the page, for example, would not be a reasonable source for additional confusion.  Nor would including duplicate pages, etc.  However, I think scewing with the format is a different issue.  I agree that the first thing a student is expected to do when he/she gets an exam is to allocate time appropriately.  Making that process more difficult/confusing for students might well have an impact on their performance.  On that basis alone, I think it's unfair.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: goaliechica on May 07, 2009, 09:00:06 AM
Nor would including duplicate pages, etc.  However, I think scewing with the format is a different issue.  I agree that the first thing a student is expected to do when he/she gets an exam is to allocate time appropriately.  Making that process more difficult/confusing for students might well have an impact on their performance.  On that basis alone, I think it's unfair.

Um, I shouldn't really come back to this, but isn't this exactly what happened? There were duplicate pagesónot even of substantive pages of the examóbut of the instruction page.

ETA: Unless you only mean duplicate pages that are right in a rowóbecause then it should be obvious what happenedóbut duplicate pages that are not consecutive are deathly confusing? Again, I feel like we are splitting hairs about saying "this is enough to throw someone off" and "this is not enough to throw someone off." I'm sure someone could come on here and pitch a fit about a misplaced staple, and someone would agree with them.

I agree that the crux of the disagreement is whether you think this is something that could reasonably throw someone off to the extent that it would affect their performance, or whether it's in the realm of somewhat annoying but not particularly debilitating *&^% that you deal with. Clearly people disagree about that.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 07, 2009, 09:06:41 AM
No, it isn't exactly what happened here.

Yes, by "duplicate pages" I meant duplicate pages that do not change the overall format of the exam.  This is why I distinguished between duplicate pages and screwing with the exam's format. Admittedly, I wasn't explicit about that.  I assumed it would be implied. 

I do think that reordering pages would be inherently confusing in a way that simply duplicating a page without changing the format would not.

Thank you for helping me untangle and clarify this issue.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 07, 2009, 09:14:28 AM
"Again, I feel like we are splitting hairs about saying "this is enough to throw someone off" and "this is not enough to throw someone off."

I see that as the central issue.  Pretty much everybody (except for the personal responsibility moralisticons) agrees that a mistake that affects performance isn't fair and should be corrected.  The real issue is whether or not the mistake in this case is enough to meet that standard.  From my perspective, the standard should be pretty low - I think that if it's conceivable that the error could affect performance it should be corrected.  Others either think my standard is too low or think that it's inconceivable that this error could affect performance.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: goaliechica on May 07, 2009, 09:23:51 AM
"Again, I feel like we are splitting hairs about saying "this is enough to throw someone off" and "this is not enough to throw someone off."

I see that as the central issue.  Pretty much everybody (except for the personal responsibility moralisticons) agrees that a mistake that affects performance isn't fair and should be corrected.  The real issue is whether or not the mistake in this case is enough to meet that standard.  From my perspective, the standard should be pretty low - I think that if it's conceivable that the error could affect performance it should be corrected.  Others either think my standard is too low or think that it's inconceivable that this error could affect performance.


Oh, and I was just going to come back and write a totally civil post to the same extent and then you had to throw in the business about "personal responsibility moralisticons" and not let go of the sniping  ::)

Look, EVERYONE agrees that the issue is whether or not this could conceivably affect performance. Those who have little sympathy for the OP feel the way you might feel if someone came on here writing a similar post about a misplaced staple - that it is simply ridiculous to think that a duplicate instruction page could throw someone off that much, and that the OP should get over it, because it's not that big a deal. You feel like I might feel if someone came on here and said they personally were given an hour less than everyone else on an exam - like something should be done, and that it's not fair.

But to tell people in the other camp that they are big hypocrites and would never feel this way if it was their own exam is completely ridiculous. You have no idea whether or not that's true. You just disagree with them about whether this is one of those circumstances where personal responsibility kicks in.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 07, 2009, 09:32:39 AM
Nothing satisfies my cold, black heart more than pre-empting civility.

"You have no idea whether or not that's true."

That's fair.  I'm assuming it is because I've met people in real life who act that way.  I've seen a lot of law students and actual lawyers behave this way and I think the profession either attracts people like that or creates them.

But I can't stand all this "personal responsibility" moralizing.  It's one thing to say - "look, I understand and sympathize, but this particular administrative screw up shouldn't have caused you much harm" and quite another to say "grow up! you're in law school!  you are responsible for checking the format of your exam and, if there is any error, it is your personal responsibility to detect and fix it in the time frame provided.  i would have.  I always do this without fail."  I think that's totally unreasonable and I seriously doubt (perhaps unfairly) that any one holding the OP to that standard would hold him/herself to it in the same or similar situation.

I stand by my prejudgments recognizing full well that that is what they are.  I'm sure I'm the only one who does that, but I'm not going to change.  ;)

Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: goaliechica on May 07, 2009, 09:38:47 AM
I seriously doubt (perhaps unfairly) that any one holding the OP to that standard would hold themselves to it in the same or similar situation.

::shrug::

At least you acknowledge that there is no basis for your opinion other than the fact that you have "seen a lot of law students and actual lawyers behave this way."

I stepped in because I know several of these posters personally, and in fact know that at least one of them has had an exam that was much more bizarrely mis-formated than the OP's, and was thrown off by it, but who took the perspective that she should just suck it up and deal because there was nothing the administration could reasonably do to fix it without unfairly hurting other students. You didn't have that information, but I am just pointing out that your assumption is demonstrably inaccurate in at least her case.

And while I said I was tempted not to be civil I don't think that I was, in fact, incivil, unless you mean the eye-rolling emoticon.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 07, 2009, 09:40:44 AM
Well, except that you told me I suck.  Which, obviously, is another thing I freely admit to. 

Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: goaliechica on May 07, 2009, 09:42:50 AM
Well, except that you told me I suck.  Which, obviously, is another thing I freely admit to. 

That was before I mentioned anything about attempting to be civil  :P

I apologize for saying that. It was childish.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 07, 2009, 09:45:11 AM
Yeah, but it was funny.  So that kind of makes up for it.

(no apologies necessary)
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 07, 2009, 09:56:17 AM
"Again, I feel like we are splitting hairs about saying "this is enough to throw someone off" and "this is not enough to throw someone off."

I see that as the central issue.  Pretty much everybody (except for the personal responsibility moralisticons) agrees that a mistake that affects performance isn't fair and should be corrected.  The real issue is whether or not the mistake in this case is enough to meet that standard.  From my perspective, the standard should be pretty low - I think that if it's conceivable that the error could affect performance it should be corrected.  Others either think my standard is too low or think that it's inconceivable that this error could affect performance.

You are really arguing with strawmen here.  No one is saying that it was good that the OP had some weird pages inserted in the middle of her exam or that it isn't slightly unfair that other students won't have the same problem.  The questions are really two:

(1) Who is or was in the best position to do something about it?
(2) Are there any grading remedies that are proportionate to the problem?

Far from being "moralisticons," SBA and others have argued that the OP was in the best position to do something about the copying error, both by exercising the normal care most students use when taking timed exams (looking through the test and allotting time for each question appropriately) and by taking, what, an extra minute to look over the requirements once she realized that the exam pagination was confusing.  This rests on a few assumptions: (1) part of good exam-taking is time management; (2) the copying error wasn't that big of a deal in the scheme of things; and (3) crafting a remedy after the fact is much more difficult.  

With the exception of curving the students who took the poorly copied version of the test separately, none of the remedies you have proposed seems very fair to other students.  Obviously, if there were enough students who took the poorly copied version, and they are not clearly a special group (like all of the worst students in the class or all of the scholarship recipients), curving them separately would be a decent -- if perhaps excessive -- response.  I suspect, however, that the OP will find that this doesn't benefit her very much since most other students likely took a moment to look through the questions before starting to answer the first.

The OP should take comfort in the fact that law students frequently misallocate time on exams and write very short answers to important questions.  Law professors understand this, and in most classes you can still get a fine grade even if you didn't completely answer one of the questions.  If the OP did well on the questions she answered, her grade probably won't suffer very much.

FWIW, I will respond to your accusations of insensitivity and hypocrisy with two personal anecdotes.  My first year, I took an exam where students in one room received approximately a half an hour more than students in the other room due to some exceptional circumstances and a proctoring error.  In that situation, obviously, no student was in a position to manage her time better than the others; we were all at the mercy of the proctors. I was one of a small group of students who led the fight to make sure the professor accounted for the time difference when grading the exams even though I was in the room that received more time, I still didn't finish the exam, and I expected my grade to suffer slightly from being graded against only the other people who received more time.  

That same semester, I also accidentally skipped over a page of multiple choice on another exam, didn't realize it until the end, and ended up circling BBBBB for all five questions I skipped.  The professor had indicated we would have "a handful of multiple choice," but there were actually fifteen, and the exam pages were unnumbered and the instruction sheet did not list the number of multiple choice questions.  Nonetheless, it was obviously my mistake.  I worried about this to a friend during an exam post-mortem, but I never complained or felt screwed in any way.  I should have been more careful.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 07, 2009, 10:00:26 AM
"You are really arguing with strawmen here."

Wow, do you people over-use that phrase. 

"No one is saying that it was good that the OP had some weird pages inserted in the middle of her exam or that it isn't slightly unfair that other students won't have the same problem."

Please go back and read what I actually wrote.  It shouldn't be that hard, you quoted it in your post.  It seems that your affliction causes you to see men of straw everywhere.  That must suck for you.

"ar from being "moralisticons," SBA and others have argued that the OP was in the best position to do something about the copying error, both by exercising the normal care most students use when taking timed exams (looking through the test and allotting time for each question appropriately) and by taking, what, an extra minute to look over the requirements once she realized that the exam pagination was confusing."

I completely disagree with this.  The administration was clearly in the best position to correct the problem.  I suppose I will never see eye-to-eye with any one who insists that it was the students.  Anyway, for my perspective on this issue, please see my post of several days ago.  No need to rehash old arguments.

Your personal anecdotes are interesting, but I don't think they break any new ground.  I think you would have hard time arguing that your missing multiple choice questions based on something the professor said would put you at a disadvantage relative to other students if they all had the same exam.  Don't get me wrong, I sympathize and that sucks (and, in an ideal world, I don't think it should be held against you).  However, you can't argue that you were being treated unfairly with respect to other students... unless I missed something.  In that case I agree that it really was your oversight, not the professor's.  In the other, I think you were right to challenge the admin.  That situation was patently unfair and left some students advantaged over others.  You were totally and completely right to have the administration correct the error. 

The OP's situation clearly falls somewhere in between.  I think it's closer to the exam timing issue.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 07, 2009, 10:13:21 AM
"You are really arguing with strawmen here."

Wow, do you people over-use that phrase. 

"No one is saying that it was good that the OP had some weird pages inserted in the middle of her exam or that it isn't slightly unfair that other students won't have the same problem."

Please go back and read what I actually wrote.  It seems that your affliction causes you to see men of straw everywhere. 

"ar from being "moralisticons," SBA and others have argued that the OP was in the best position to do something about the copying error, both by exercising the normal care most students use when taking timed exams (looking through the test and allotting time for each question appropriately) and by taking, what, an extra minute to look over the requirements once she realized that the exam pagination was confusing."

I completely disagree with this.  The administration was clearly in the best position to correct the problem.  I suppose I will never see eye-to-eye with any one who insists that it was the students.  Anyway, for my perspective on this issue, please see my post of several days ago.  No need to rehash old arguments.

I'm sorry, perhaps I didn't understand what you meant by "personal responsibility moralisticons."  If you meant simply people who have argued that those taking timed exams should look through the questions to allocate their time appropriately, then I apologize and there are no straw men.

I don't know if you realize it, but you're really being a jerk and insulting people for no conceivable reason except that you apparently surround yourself with assholes and assume every other law student or lawyer is like them.

"ar from being "moralisticons," SBA and others have argued that the OP was in the best position to do something about the copying error, both by exercising the normal care most students use when taking timed exams (looking through the test and allotting time for each question appropriately) and by taking, what, an extra minute to look over the requirements once she realized that the exam pagination was confusing."

I completely disagree with this.  The administration was clearly in the best position to correct the problem.  I suppose I will never see eye-to-eye with any one who insists that it was the students.  Anyway, for my perspective on this issue, please see my post of several days ago.  No need to rehash old arguments.

Once the test started, the administration was not in a good position to correct the problem at all; the difficulty of crafting an appropriate remedy is a clear indication of this.  (Perhaps you mean that the person who copied the exam was in the best position to correct the problem, but that's not the issue here.  But sure.) 

I don't know to which of your several posts of several days ago you're referring me, but I have read the entire thread and I don't recall any posts that address my arguments at all.  Obviously, you're free to disagree with me, but without any analysis, it's just stubbornness and not a debate.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 07, 2009, 10:16:25 AM
"Obviously, you're free to disagree with me, but without any analysis, it's just stubbornness and not a debate."

Fair, but I'm too tired to reiterate.  I'll try to find the relevant posts and bring them back up to the surface.

Sucks that you think I'm a "jerk," but I can live with that.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 07, 2009, 10:17:11 AM
ISUCKATTHIS, can you please provide an affirmative proposal for what you think should happen?

That's a much harder question and I am not qualified to address it.  I'll take a stab anyway.

In order to answer this question comprehensively, you'd have to know how many students were affected.

Probably the best solution, if it is possible, is to curve separately those students taking the test under different conditions.  That would mean having a separate curve for all those students whose exams were misformatted.  The obvious problem with this idea is that there may be an insufficient number of such students to form a normal distribution. 

Another, less fair solution would be to re-weight the questions for all or a portion of the students according to their exam's format.  Students with the proper format would get the exams with the original weighting scheme, students with an improper format would get a weighting scheme that compensated for their misallocation of time during the exam.  This would mean de-emphasizing the latter two questions in the weighting scheme.

Finally, if all else fails, one or all of the following imperfect solutions could be applied:  1) the formatting and/or organization of essay answers to the latter two questions could be officially disregarded by the administration in the grading process (i.e., grading for content only), 2) students with misformatted exams could be given compensatory points or 3) the last two questions could be disregarded in the grading process.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 07, 2009, 10:22:26 AM
You keep adding things into your post; I can't keep up.

Your personal anecdotes are interesting, but I don't think they break any new ground.  I think you would have hard time arguing that your missing multiple choice questions based on something the professor said would put you at a disadvantage relative to other students if they all had the same exam.  Don't get me wrong, I sympathize and that sucks (and, in an ideal world, I don't think it should be held against you).  However, you can't argue that you were being treated unfairly with respect to other students... unless I missed something.  In that case I agree that it really was your oversight, not the professor's.  In the other, I think you were right to challenge the admin.  That situation was patently unfair and left some students advantaged over others.  You were totally and completely right to have the administration correct the error. 

The OP's situation clearly falls somewhere in between.  I think it's closer to the exam timing issue.

No, no new ground.  My point is that your accusation that people taking my position are hypercompetitive hypocrites completely lacking in empathy for their fellow students is off the mark.  In the situation where I thought an exam had been administered unfairly, I protested for weeks even though I expected my own grade to suffer, and in the situation where my personal oversight led me to do worse on an exam than I had hoped (B+), I sucked it up.  

And we disagree about the last bit: the poor copying was an administrative oversight, but failing to look through the questions before allotting her time was the student's.  I have taken approximately 20 law school exams at this point, and I honestly can't imagine that flipping through the extra instruction sheets and trying to figure out the number of questions on the exam would take more than 60 seconds.  And I am -- as my last anecdote indicates -- obviously not the most organized or confident test-taker.  Would my heart race a little extra?  Probably.  Is this anything like getting half an hour less than your fellow students?  No way.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 07, 2009, 10:28:17 AM
I can't guarantee that misformatting the exam wouldn't screw me up.  Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't... probably depends on the time of day, what I ate for breakfast and whether or not Ben Bernanke gets his act together.  Who knows?  I don't think anybody does until they've been in that situation.   

More importantly, I can certainly imagine that it would screw some people up.  Therefore, I think it's unfair and should be corrected. 

I fundamentally disagree with the contention that it is inconceivable that the misformatting would have an impact on exam performance.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 07, 2009, 10:41:16 AM
[1]Probably the best solution, if it is possible, is to curve separately those students taking the test under different conditions.  That would mean having a separate curve for all those students whose exams were misformatted.  The obvious problem with this idea is that there may be an insufficient number of such students to form a normal distribution. 

[2]Another, less fair solution would be to re-weight the questions for all or a portion of the students according to their exam's format.  Students with the proper format would get the exams with the original weighting scheme, students with an improper format would get a weighting scheme that compensated for their misallocation of time during the exam.  This would mean de-emphasizing the latter two questions in the weighting scheme.

Finally, if all else fails, one or all of the following imperfect solutions could be applied:  [3] the formatting and/or organization of essay answers to the latter two questions could be officially disregarded by the administration in the grading process (i.e., grading for content only), [4] students with misformatted exams could be given compensatory points or [5] the last two questions could be disregarded in the grading process.

Taking these in turn:

[1] is the solution I proposed. It is likely an excessive response to the error, but if the number of students who took the poorly copied exam is significant enough, and they do not represent some special segment of the class, then I think the professor should go ahead and do this.

[2] is not fair to students who took the poorly copied exam and allocated their time appropriately (who I happen to suspect make up the majority); they deserve the high value of the points they earned on the last questions.  Weighing the questions differently than the exam indicated would only be fair if the professor could tailor the remedy to individual students, but there is no way of knowing how different students dealt with the poor copying.  Trying to guess, from reading the exams, how individual students dealt with the copying error, would just result in giving people more points for the questions on which they did well.  

[3] is unfair to the students who did well on the last two questions.  Moreover, any professor will tell you that it is very difficult to ignore the formatting or organization of an exam answer.  Part of the reason they care about that stuff is because a properly formatted and organized answer conveys the substance much better than a poorly formatted and organized answer.

[4] is unfair to students who took the properly formatted exam.  And how would you determine the number of points?  

[5] is absolutely absurd and is completely unfair to students who worked hard on those questions or the topics they covered.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 07, 2009, 10:45:57 AM
I fundamentally disagree with the contention that it is inconceivable that the misformatting would have an impact on exam performance.

I didn't say this.  Indeed, it's obvious that it had an impact on the OP's performance.  My contention is that it would not have an impact on the performance of a student who took the reasonable care most students do with exams.  I'm sorry that the OP was thrown off so much, but I can't imagine that allocating time appropriately would have taken more than an extra minute.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 07, 2009, 10:52:40 AM
Okay, so let's bring up straw men again.  I never said those solutions were perfect or completely fair.  In fact, I admitted they were imperfect.  It says so in the quote in your next to last post.  Arguing that the solutions are all imperfect and, therefore, either (1) I am wrong or (2) doing nothing is preferable is arguing against a straw man indeed.

Even if those solutions are imperfect (as I admitted), each is better than simply saying to the students with the misformatted exams:  "you should have checked!  It's your fault!  I would have!  Screw you!"

I agree that the solutions are imperfect, but they're each better than doing absolutely nothing. 

"My contention is that it would not have an impact on the performance of a student who took the reasonable care most students do with exams."

Agreed, but there is no basis for that except your other contention that this mishap wouldn't affect your performance.  I don't know about you particularly, but I think this could easily affect someone's performance.  Further, it is clearly not the same test being given to all students.  On that basis, I think something should be done.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 07, 2009, 11:00:02 AM
Even if those solutions are imperfect (as I admitted), each is better than simply saying to the students with the misformatted exams:  "you should have checked!  It's your fault!  I would have!  Screw you!"

I agree that the solutions are imperfect, but they're each better than doing absolutely nothing. 

This is where we disagree.  The professor has to make a judgment about how to address the problem without making things worse.  Each of the solutions you proposed, with the exception of the first (which I believe everyone here has endorsed) is more unfair than giving some students extra instruction sheets in the middle of their exams.  They have (in some cases quantifiable, and almost certainly larger) negative impacts on more students.

And there you go again.  No one is saying "screw you."  We're just saying that there might not be a good solution and that the error, while unfortunate, was not a huge deal in the scheme of things.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: This is wrong. on May 07, 2009, 11:01:29 AM

But I can't stand all this "personal responsibility" moralizing.  It's one thing to say - "look, I understand and sympathize, but this particular administrative screw up shouldn't have caused you much harm" and quite another to say "grow up! you're in law school!  you are responsible for checking the format of your exam and, if there is any error, it is your personal responsibility to detect and fix it in the time frame provided.  i would have.  I always do this without fail."  I think that's totally unreasonable and I seriously doubt (perhaps unfairly) that any one holding the OP to that standard would hold him/herself to it in the same or similar situation.


Really?  Really?

Jesus Christ, you suck at this.

It's not that people don't feel bad for the OP, but it seriously was not that big of a deal.  I missed a whole page on an exam once because, for some reason, the professor decided to print it on the reverse side of the third (out of four) pages without warning and without notice of how many questions there were.

Was I pissed?  Yes. 

Was it my fault for not checking the exam thoroughly, particularly since I've been prompted to do so before every exam I've ever taken?  Yes.

Did I talk to the professor to see what could be done?  Yes.

Did it help?  No.

Did I sack up and live with it?  Yes.

It's a terrible predicament, but penalizing the majority for this oversight is ridiculous. 

[/what every other smart person in this thread has been saying]




I get the sense that you're just clinging to your argument because you started it.  You should know that this is not clever. 
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 07, 2009, 11:04:07 AM
"No one is saying "screw you."

While I'm sure you'd be more polite, you'd be effectively dinging their GPAs for something they had nothing to do with.  I'd much prefer to be insulted than to have that happen to me.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: This is wrong. on May 07, 2009, 11:05:54 AM
"No one is saying "screw you."

While I'm sure you'd be more polite, you'd be effectively dinging their GPAs for something they had nothing to do with.  I'd much prefer to be insulted than to have that happen to me.

This is wrong.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 07, 2009, 11:06:11 AM

But I can't stand all this "personal responsibility" moralizing.  It's one thing to say - "look, I understand and sympathize, but this particular administrative screw up shouldn't have caused you much harm" and quite another to say "grow up! you're in law school!  you are responsible for checking the format of your exam and, if there is any error, it is your personal responsibility to detect and fix it in the time frame provided.  i would have.  I always do this without fail."  I think that's totally unreasonable and I seriously doubt (perhaps unfairly) that any one holding the OP to that standard would hold him/herself to it in the same or similar situation.


Really?  Really?

Jesus Christ, you suck at this.

It's not that people don't feel bad for the OP, but it seriously was not that big of a deal.  I missed a whole page on an exam once because, for some reason, the professor decided to print it on the reverse side of the third (out of four) pages without warning and without notice of how many questions there were.

Was I pissed?  Yes. 

Was it my fault for not checking the exam thoroughly, particularly since I've been prompted to do so before every exam I've ever taken?  Yes.

Did I talk to the professor to see what could be done?  Yes.

Did it help?  No.

Did I sack up and live with it?  Yes.

It's a terrible predicament, but penalizing the majority for this oversight is ridiculous. 

[/what every other smart person in this thread has been saying]




I get the sense that you're just clinging to your argument because you started it.  You should know that this is not clever. 


You were totally at fault and not put at a disadvantage with respect to any other student.  This a completely different situation.  Think about it, you'll figure it out eventually.  If not, I can't help you.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: This is wrong. on May 07, 2009, 11:09:31 AM

But I can't stand all this "personal responsibility" moralizing.  It's one thing to say - "look, I understand and sympathize, but this particular administrative screw up shouldn't have caused you much harm" and quite another to say "grow up! you're in law school!  you are responsible for checking the format of your exam and, if there is any error, it is your personal responsibility to detect and fix it in the time frame provided.  i would have.  I always do this without fail."  I think that's totally unreasonable and I seriously doubt (perhaps unfairly) that any one holding the OP to that standard would hold him/herself to it in the same or similar situation.


Really?  Really?

Jesus Christ, you suck at this.

It's not that people don't feel bad for the OP, but it seriously was not that big of a deal.  I missed a whole page on an exam once because, for some reason, the professor decided to print it on the reverse side of the third (out of four) pages without warning and without notice of how many questions there were.

Was I pissed?  Yes. 

Was it my fault for not checking the exam thoroughly, particularly since I've been prompted to do so before every exam I've ever taken?  Yes.

Did I talk to the professor to see what could be done?  Yes.

Did it help?  No.

Did I sack up and live with it?  Yes.

It's a terrible predicament, but penalizing the majority for this oversight is ridiculous. 

[/what every other smart person in this thread has been saying]




I get the sense that you're just clinging to your argument because you started it.  You should know that this is not clever. 


You were totally at fault and not put at a disadvantage with respect to any other student.  This a completely different situation.  Think about it, you'll figure it out eventually.  If not, I can't help you.

::smh::

1.  This is an assumption you're drawing from... what?  You don't know the full story.  ::diagnoses weaknesses::
2.  Even if you're right, so what?  It's directly relevant.  Think about it.  You'll figure it out eventually.  If not, I can help you, but I really don't f-ing want to.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 07, 2009, 11:11:48 AM
I'm not assuming anything.  I just read what you told me.  Keep thinking about it.  If that gives you a headache, take advil.  Don't give up, you'll get there.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: This is wrong. on May 07, 2009, 11:13:06 AM
I'm not assuming anything.  I just read what you told me.  Keep thinking about it.  If that gives you a headache, take advil.  Don't give up, you'll get there.

Good luck.

lulz

(Pssst!  You may want to address point 2!)
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 07, 2009, 11:13:54 AM
2:  it's not relevant because the oversight was yours.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 07, 2009, 11:19:54 AM
"No one is saying "screw you."

While I'm sure you'd be more polite, you'd be effectively dinging their GPAs for something they had nothing to do with.  I'd much prefer to be insulted than to have that happen to me.

No, it's not dinging her GPA for something for which she had no responsibility or opportunity to fix.  Students misallocate their time on exams all the time, for idiosyncratic reasons.  If there's an external factor, obviously the professor should make an effort to take that into account.  I just think you and the OP are making a mountain out of a molehill with respect to this particular factor.  There wasn't a broken clock in the room or an irresponsible proctor.  There weren't missing pages.  There weren't several pages of gibberish (as I have had in an exam).  There wasn't a problem with uploading or downloading the exam.  There were merely some additional instruction pages.  Bummer?  Yes.  Insurmountable hurdle?  No.

The OP had the same opportunity as all students to look through the exam before taking the test and neglected to do it.  She was adversely affected only in relation to other students who did not take this step but who were not thrown off by the pagination, whether because they didn't make the same bizarre assumption she did (that a copy of the instruction sheet in the middle of the exam meant the exam was over) or because their exams were paginated correctly.  This is unfair, but it is small beans.  
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ToTransferOrNot on May 07, 2009, 11:21:28 AM
You can't demonstrate that more people would be thrown off by incorrect formatting (an extra copied page) than by inconsistent formatting (a random double-sided page.) How in God's name can you not see the similarity there?

The action that the students should have taken to avoid a problem is the same in both cases.

You sound like a broken record- "they should have copied the exam correctly!" Well no kidding! Shoulda, coulda, woulda. Hopefully this debacle will improve Drake's test administration in the future. That doesn't justify punishing the students who weren't affected.

And again, how the hell do you justify penalizing students who had correctly formatted exams, or the ones who had incorrectly formatted exams who noticed and dealt with the error? You dismiss the solution of "do nothing- the breadth and depth of the consequences will be more fair than any of your solutions save #1" on its face. Your solutions, aside from #1, are not merely "imperfect," they're absurd. I mean, really... ignore the final two questions? The "do nothing" approach is "imperfect."

Edit: Probably not the case, but it is really hard to get over the impression that ISUCKATTHIS has made a mistake similar to OP's, and is hurt by the fact that the majority of people think the idea of it being some kind of manifest injustice is absurd.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 07, 2009, 11:26:26 AM
2:  it's not relevant because the oversight was yours.

Dude, the oversight here was the OP's, too.  Your argument is that there should be a remedy for the OP even though this  external factor -- the bad pagination -- affected the OP in a way that it likely did not affect other similarly situated students.  The OP's response to seeing the extra pages was obviously strange -- however understandable it might be if we take into account the pressure of exam time -- and she made a mistake.  You have to at least admit this.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ToTransferOrNot on May 07, 2009, 11:27:52 AM
2:  it's not relevant because the oversight was yours.

Dude, the oversight here was the OP's, too.  Your argument is that there should be a remedy for the OP even though this  external factor -- the bad pagination -- affected the OP in a way that it likely did not affect other similarly situated students.  The OP's response to seeing the extra pages was obviously strange -- however understandable it might be if we take into account the pressure of exam time -- and she made a mistake.  You have to at least admit this.

I already had that discussion with them- he absolutely refuses to admit that there was anything unreasonable about the OP's reaction to this "problem."
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: This is wrong. on May 07, 2009, 11:48:02 AM
I'm going to dissect the OP and then provide the analysis.  If you still don't get it then, well... @#!* off and die.

It seems like Third Tier law schools can do nothing right. In this semesterís Drake University Law School Business Associations exam taught by Professor Doreís, the pages in the exam packets were so woefully out of order that students taking the exam were completely unaware of the last two and most heavily weighted questions on the exam. The pages preceding the last two pages containing those questions were actually a repeat of the ďinstructions pageĒ (incompetently inserted into some students packets at least three times) making it appear that the students were almost finished when there were actually 2 more pages waiting for them. In other words, as the students were looking through the pages and saw the repeat of the instructions they assumed the torture was almost over. By the time Dean Henin and other students realized the error, the students had an hour to answer questions with suggested times totaling an hour and half. Not big deal if it happened to everyone right? Think again. In another stroke of Third Tier School genius, 2L and 3L exams are self-scheduledónever mind the concerns about cheating because that would be too obviousóso only a few (un)lucky ones were affected while everyone else gets to pleasure of taking the exam without having to play scavenger hunt for questions.
 
The Deans havenít issued a resolution to problem but it wouldnít be surprising if they blamed the error on a Third Tier copy machine.
 
In this economyófilled with associate deferrals, layoffs, and forced pay-cutsóstudents at smaller Third Tier schools like Drake are already at a disadvantage in a secondary market like Iowa.  Letís hope the Deans donít punish the responsible students who prepared diligently for the exam to take it early while letting procrastinating members of the course enjoy the benefit of a correctly proctored exam earned on the backs of an unlucky few, like myself.
 
-Anonymous

The Steps

1.  Pages were out of order in the exam.
2.  The instructions page was inserted numerous times in the wrong spots, leading to confusion.
3.  Some students missed the last two questions because of this error... that is, until they had an hour left (rather than the allotted hour and a half).
4.  This was an administration of a self-scheduled exam.
5.  As a result, only a small proportion of students taking the exam experienced this series of events.
6.  Putative: Early exam takers are diligent while later (self-scheduled) exam takers are procrastinators.
7.  Putative: The procrastinators will benefit from this error at the diligent's expense.

Do we agree on this so far?  I would find it difficult to believe that we don't agree on this much.  It's all right there in the post above.

The Analysis

So whose fault is it?  You posed this as the central dilemma earlier, and I don't think anyone really disagrees.

1.  It's not the students' fault that the exam was out of order.  That much is certain.  But that's not the issue.
2.  The issue is this: could the students have prevented any part of this?  The answer is simple: yes.  A quick scan of the exam would have revealed the flaws.  At the most, it would've cost 5 minutes of their time. 
     [A.  Nowhere is it made clear just how many of the students actually made this mistake and lost out on half an hour of writing time.
     B.  We are thus left to assume that all of the students in this particular administration of the exam made this mistake.  I doubt this, but I'll let it go.]
3.  Did this place them at a disadvantage compared to students who took a correctly proctored exam?  Yes.  Slightly.  And here is the error of your argument.
4.  It is fallacious, once the result is known (i.e. that these students "lost" 30 minutes of exam time), to look back and assume that this result is the only (or the most likely) outcome of the particular set of circumstances listed above in Steps 1 and 2.  How does this apply?
5.  A very obvious, simple, and extremely common step would have salvaged the situation completely, putting this group of students on par with any of the other "procrastinators" who did not "suffer" from this odd set of circumstances.  This step, as exam takers are prompted to do before every exam, is to quickly read through the exam to make sure things are in order and things make sense.
6.  You know what?  Hey, that's exactly analogous to the anecdote I related!  You see...
7.  The "procrastinators" are irrelevant here.  They didn't get a substantially different exam.  According to the OP's story, they simply got an exam with a few less pages.  In other words, their exams didn't have duplicated instructions anywhere.  The questions were exactly the same.  They were in the same order.  They had the same time allotments.
8.  It's because of the ease, simplicity, and obviousness of the remedy that would have prevented any of this bitching and moaning (i.e. checking your exam before you plunge into it) that people in this thread who are normally extremely forgiving are turning to the "personal responsibility" argument you detest so much.
9.  That "argument", as you frame it, by the way, is a red herring.  These posters are empathetic.  Most of us have been through something similar.  It really, really sucks.  But given the parameters as framed by the OP, (a) the duplicate pages were really not that big a deal, and (b) the whole situation could've been avoided, so (c) why would you punish wholly innocent students for it?
(10.  Perhaps, if the OP is so "diligent", she might have been more "diligent" in reading through her exam before starting it?  Mmm?)


ETA:  Replaced a key word I accidentally erased before posting.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 07, 2009, 03:08:30 PM
2:  it's not relevant because the oversight was yours.

Dude, the oversight here was the OP's, too.  Your argument is that there should be a remedy for the OP even though this  external factor -- the bad pagination -- affected the OP in a way that it likely did not affect other similarly situated students.  The OP's response to seeing the extra pages was obviously strange -- however understandable it might be if we take into account the pressure of exam time -- and she made a mistake.  You have to at least admit this.

You've completely mis-characterized what I was saying above. 

This discussion has become like a game of whack-a-mole.  One of you two makes some flagrant mis-characterization of my previous posts, I explain the mis-characterization and the cycle begins again. 

I don't think we're getting anywhere and I'm getting kind of bored with this.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 07, 2009, 03:19:28 PM
2:  it's not relevant because the oversight was yours.

Dude, the oversight here was the OP's, too.  Your argument is that there should be a remedy for the OP even though this  external factor -- the bad pagination -- affected the OP in a way that it likely did not affect other similarly situated students.  The OP's response to seeing the extra pages was obviously strange -- however understandable it might be if we take into account the pressure of exam time -- and she made a mistake.  You have to at least admit this.

You've completely mis-characterized what I was saying above. 

How so?  (You may want to respond to this with specific attention to what I said about how the OP was only disadvantaged relative to other people who did not look through the test before starting to write.)


This discussion has become like a game of whack-a-mole.  One of you two makes some flagrant mis-characterization of my previous posts, I explain the mis-characterization and the cycle begins again. 

I don't think we're getting anywhere and I'm getting kind of bored with this.

This made me laugh for a number of reasons, most of all your extraordinary lack of self-awareness.

Also, there are more than two posters arguing with you in this thread.  I count at least SBA, This is wrong, goaliechica, ToTransferOrNot, Kiwiki, and myself.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 07, 2009, 03:23:34 PM
Well, at least you're amused so this hasn't been a total loss for you.  Thank you so much for this lesson in self-awareness.

It has been a pleasure to be touched by your wisdom and your kindness. 

Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 07, 2009, 03:28:16 PM
Well, at least you're amused so this hasn't been a total loss for you.  Thank you so much for this lesson in self-awareness.

It has been a pleasure to be touched by your wisdom and your kindness. 

I really don't know what you're on about!  You're the one who has consistently called people taking my position hypocrites and worse, and the OP, your heroine, is insulting her classmates who did absolutely nothing wrong, and yet you complain of my lack of kindness?  Give me a f-ing break!
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 07, 2009, 03:31:08 PM
jesus are you tightly wound.  I hereby grant your request. Please go ahead and take a break, it will be good for you.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 07, 2009, 03:36:34 PM
jesus are you tightly wound.  please go ahead and take a break, it will be good for you.

lol, I love it.  You've been arguing with people about this for days, with a good deal of hysteria and completely unwarranted personal insults thrown in for good measure.  Plenty of posters in this forum have the standing to tell me that I'm too tightly wound, but I hardly think you're one of them.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 07, 2009, 03:38:31 PM
"Plenty of posters in this forum have the standing to tell me that I'm too tightly wound, but I hardly think you're one of them."

lol
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 07, 2009, 03:55:06 PM
The hilarity of your cybermob mentality aside, where did he insult you?  Was it by glancingly referring to you as a "moralisticon?" What does that even mean?

And that you equate with "hysteria."

WTF is wrong with you?
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 07, 2009, 03:56:04 PM
jesus are you tightly wound.  please go ahead and take a break, it will be good for you.

lol, I love it.  You've been arguing with people about this for days, with a good deal of hysteria and completely unwarranted personal insults thrown in for good measure.  Plenty of posters in this forum have the standing to tell me that I'm too tightly wound, but I hardly think you're one of them.

(http://irritationx.googlepages.com/emot-golfclap.gif)

what the hell is this?
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 07, 2009, 04:09:30 PM
The hilarity of your cybermob mentality aside, where did you insult?  Was it by glancingly referring to you as a "moralisticon?" What does that even mean?

And that you equate with "hysteria."

WTF is wrong with you?


I'm not sure what you mean by "cybermob mentality."

ISUCKATTHIS consistently referred to people like me as hypocrites who lacked empathy and had nothing to offer the OP beyond "You're screwed."  He also described me, yes, as a "moralisticon."  He implied that SBA was senile (the gingko stuff), even though none of the things he quoted her as saying contradicted her argument.  He called ToTransferOrNot an idiot out of nowhere at least twice ("I think you've demonstrated to within a hair's breadth of certainty that anything you can do 'Doesn't require any particular intellect' "; "being stupid is bad") and made a huge deal about a homonym error (affect/effect).

The hysteria to which I'm referring is ISUCKATTHIS' sense that a grave injustice will be done if the OP's grade isn't adjusted and that anyone who disagrees is a cold-hearted snake.
 
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Mister W on May 07, 2009, 04:13:18 PM
(http://eisbergpethotels.com/Images/Cute%20Puppies.jpg)
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 07, 2009, 04:19:10 PM
The hilarity of your cybermob mentality aside, where did you insult?  Was it by glancingly referring to you as a "moralisticon?" What does that even mean?

And that you equate with "hysteria."

WTF is wrong with you?


I'm not sure what you mean by "cybermob mentality."

ISUCKATTHIS consistently referred to people like me as hypocrites who lacked empathy and had nothing to offer the OP beyond "You're screwed."  He also described me, yes, as a "moralisticon."  He implied that SBA was senile (the gingko stuff), even though none of the things he quoted her as saying contradicted her argument.  He called ToTransferOrNot an idiot out of nowhere at least twice ("I think you've demonstrated to within a hair's breadth of certainty that anything you can do 'Doesn't require any particular intellect' "; "being stupid is bad") and made a huge deal about a homonym error (affect/effect).

The hysteria to which I'm referring is ISUCKATTHIS' sense that a grave injustice will be done if the OP's grade isn't adjusted and that anyone who disagrees is a cold-hearted snake.
 

Oh get over yourself.  You've totally jumped the shark.  Ginko comment?  WTF?

By "cybermob" mentality, I mean the idea that an unpopular viewpoint is automatically illegitimate. 
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 07, 2009, 04:24:05 PM
Oh get over yourself.  You've totally jumped the shark.  Ginko comment?  WTF?

By "cybermob" mentality, I mean the idea that an unpopular viewpoint is automatically illegitimate. 


Frankly, I have trouble following your incoherent posts. 

In any case, my posts do not exhibit a "cybermob" mentality.  And perhaps more to the point, earlier in this thread, I was vastly outnumbered by posters taking your side (even if most of them were obviously accounts created for this express purpose, and likely by the same person).  Were you exhibiting a "cybermob" mentality simply for stating your views when you were in the majority?
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 07, 2009, 04:28:22 PM
Frankly, your posts are very little more than self-absorbed, rambling diatribes that are, more often than not, full of factual inaccuracies and tangential to the focus of the discussion.  Unable to defend your perspective with actual reason, you resort to pointing out that SUCKY has been arguing with more people than just yourself... as if that fact would somehow give coherency to your otherwise unintelligible rambling. 
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 07, 2009, 04:29:30 PM
Frankly, your posts are very little more than self-absorbed, rambling diatribes that are, more often than not, full of factual inaccuracies and tangential to the focus of the discussion.  Unable to defend your perspective with actual reason, you resort to pointing out that SUCKY has been arguing with more people than just yourself... as if that fact would somehow give coherency to your otherwise unintelligible rambling. 

Huh.  Okay, I'll let other readers of the thread be the judge. ;)
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 07, 2009, 04:34:28 PM
Frankly, your posts are very little more than self-absorbed, rambling diatribes that are, more often than not, full of factual inaccuracies and tangential to the focus of the discussion.  Unable to defend your perspective with actual reason, you resort to pointing out that SUCKY has been arguing with more people than just yourself... as if that fact would somehow give coherency to your otherwise unintelligible rambling. 

Huh.  Okay, I'll let other readers of the thread be the judge. ;)

Yes, please do.  I would also add that your nearly pathological concern for how the electronic community sees you, which clearly provides most of the motivation for your posting, is most likely indicative of a deep-seated insecurity.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 07, 2009, 04:35:53 PM
Christ, you two have a lot of time on your hands.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 07, 2009, 04:38:51 PM
Yes, please do.  I would also add that your nearly pathological concern for how the electronic community sees you, which clearly provides most of the motivation for your posting, is most likely indicative of a deep-seated insecurity.

I don't care how you see me, as I believe my last post indicates.  I care that people are civil to one another, which includes not leveling personal insults at anyone with whom one disagrees.  To the extent that my posts in this thread have veered off topic, it is a response to your and ISUCKATTHIS' rudeness.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 07, 2009, 04:47:43 PM
Actually, I will agree that you habitually mischaracterize my posts.  I will also agree that by "rudeness" you really mean glancing suggestions that your perspective might not be morally pure.  Any "hysteria" caused has been your indignation over that. 

I never used the word "hypocrite." That's your word, incidentally.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 07, 2009, 04:50:29 PM
Yes, please do.  I would also add that your nearly pathological concern for how the electronic community sees you, which clearly provides most of the motivation for your posting, is most likely indicative of a deep-seated insecurity.

I don't care how you see me, as I believe my last post indicates.  I care that people are civil to one another, which includes not leveling personal insults at anyone with whom one disagrees.  To the extent that my posts in this thread have veered off topic, it is a response to your and ISUCKATTHIS' rudeness.

LOL of course not because I am not on your list of "influential" posters.  Me thinks you live too much in the virtual.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: This is wrong. on May 07, 2009, 05:28:12 PM
The hilarity of your cybermob mentality aside, where did you insult?  Was it by glancingly referring to you as a "moralisticon?" What does that even mean?

And that you equate with "hysteria."

WTF is wrong with you?


I'm not sure what you mean by "cybermob mentality."

ISUCKATTHIS consistently referred to people like me as hypocrites who lacked empathy and had nothing to offer the OP beyond "You're screwed."  He also described me, yes, as a "moralisticon."  He implied that SBA was senile (the gingko stuff), even though none of the things he quoted her as saying contradicted her argument.  He called ToTransferOrNot an idiot out of nowhere at least twice ("I think you've demonstrated to within a hair's breadth of certainty that anything you can do 'Doesn't require any particular intellect' "; "being stupid is bad") and made a huge deal about a homonym error (affect/effect).

The hysteria to which I'm referring is ISUCKATTHIS' sense that a grave injustice will be done if the OP's grade isn't adjusted and that anyone who disagrees is a cold-hearted snake.
 

Oh get over yourself.  You've totally jumped the shark.  Ginko comment?  WTF?

By "cybermob" mentality, I mean the idea that an unpopular viewpoint is automatically illegitimate. 


It's not wrong because it's unpopular.  It's wrong because it's wrong.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: This is wrong. on May 07, 2009, 05:29:39 PM
Christ, you two have a lot of time on your hands.

ROFLBURGER

THE CLASSIC LSD MEME STRIKES AGAIN!!!
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 07, 2009, 05:35:25 PM
Miss P, you're too tightly wound!

I can't express how much I love it when people tell me that. 

::cybermobs thread in chest::

If I owned a gun, I think it would be difficult for me to resist the urge to shoot off my face right now. 

I suppose I don't really need to show how much of a co-dependant nut job you are, but this is over the top.  Pull yourself together.  I mean, you can't handle your views being challenged so you retreat back to your cyberpals and whine about it?  and talk about shooting yourself?

Unbelievable.

Strike that.  Totally believable and exactly like I was saying.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: This is wrong. on May 07, 2009, 05:39:26 PM
Miss P, you're too tightly wound!

I can't express how much I love it when people tell me that. 

::cybermobs thread in chest::

If I owned a gun, I think it would be difficult for me to resist the urge to shoot off my face right now. 

I suppose I don't really need to show how much of a co-dependant nut job you are, but this is over the top.  Pull yourself together.  I mean, you can't handle your views being challenged so you retreat back to your cyberpals and whine about it?  and talk about shooting yourself?

Unbelievable.

Strike that.  Totally believable and exactly like I was saying.

Oh noez!  He reads the whole internets!
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 07, 2009, 05:51:02 PM
The idea of having a cyber support group that you tap into when your intellect runs aground in an argument is totally lame.  I guess if you need the emotional crutch it's good for you, but if you're really THAT needy you probably should go for real-world counseling.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: This is wrong. on May 07, 2009, 05:55:46 PM
The idea of having a cyber support group that you tap into when your intellect runs aground in an argument is totally lame.  I guess if you need the emotional crutch it's good for you, but if you're really THAT needy you probably should go for real-world counseling.

I completely agree.  You guys have schooled her so badly that she's likely permanently damaged. 

What heavy intellects such as yourselves are doing involving yourselves in such frivolous arguments beats me.  People like Miss P don't stand a chance.  You need to give them all a chance, Tiger!
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 07, 2009, 05:56:53 PM
Why don't you retreat to your cyberbunker?

LOL.

Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 07, 2009, 06:19:40 PM
LOL of course not because I am not on your list of "influential" posters.  Me thinks you live too much in the virtual.

Now you're just making things up out of thin air.  Seriously.  I did get a laugh at the notion that anyone worries about "influential posters" on the LAW SCHOOL DISCUSSION board, though.  For future reference, the real slam dunk in an argument against me is a comment on my excessive post-count.  I'm sorry you missed that one.  It slays every single time!

As for your collection of my posts from SFLSD, I probably shouldn't dignify them with a response, but here goes:

1. In the first, I was kidding around with SBA.  We frequently get accused of taking things seriously and the like, and it annoys us, in part because we think it's sexist. 

2. In the second, I was making fun of you, and simultaneously deploying an SFLSD meme that is a great inside joke.  (Now, to help you out, this is the part where you make fun of me for having interfriends with whom I share inside jokes.  Again, it's a devastating criticism.  Lucky for you, I doubt anyone will ever suspect you of the same.)

3. The third was a (perhaps tasteless) joke about my lack of preparation for my upcoming exam.  It had nothing to do with this thread.  Not everything is about you.  (See, I know how to use this one too!)
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 07, 2009, 06:26:11 PM
Whatever.  What I do know is that you'll keep obsessing about all this silly crap so much so that you have to seek outside assistance when your intellect fails.  That and you need the emotional crutch.  Talk about co-dependency.  You need emotional support when all you're doing is trading ideas about whether or not someone else's exam administration was fair.  Sheesh.

There's no need for you to comment any more here.  I get you and, obviously, it's unfair for me to engage in frank discussion with you.

You'll be a hell of an attorney, LOL.

Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 07, 2009, 06:32:49 PM
"Now you're just making things up out of thin air.  Seriously.  I did get a laugh at the notion that anyone worries about "influential posters" on the LAW SCHOOL DISCUSSION board, though.  For future reference, the real slam dunk in an argument against me is a comment on my excessive post-count.  I'm sorry you missed that one.  It slays every single time!"

lol.  next time delete the post before you lie about it...

jesus are you tightly wound.  please go ahead and take a break, it will be good for you.

lol, I love it.  You've been arguing with people about this for days, with a good deal of hysteria and completely unwarranted personal insults thrown in for good measure.  Plenty of posters in this forum have the standing to tell me that I'm too tightly wound, but I hardly think you're one of them.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 07, 2009, 06:34:57 PM
Actually, I will agree that you habitually mischaracterize my posts.  I will also agree that by "rudeness" you really mean glancing suggestions that your perspective might not be morally pure.  Any "hysteria" caused has been your indignation over that. 

I never used the word "hypocrite." That's your word, incidentally.

1. You've said a number of times that I have mischaracterized your posts, but you've never explained where or how.  I may have misinterpreted something you said -- I make plenty of mistakes -- but it doesn't help me to understand you better if you refuse to explain or even point out my errors.  Maybe you're just tired of this pointless argument.  That's fair.  But then maybe you should actually let it go.

2. I actually think that any suggestion that someone who disagrees with you is morally impure -- glancing or otherwise -- is rude.  That said, your snide remarks are not merely glancing  They seem to be the reason for your continued engagement with this thread: the moralisticons are making you angry!  If they would just agree that the OP suffered you wouldn't care to argue with them!  But they're just being so unfair!

3. By "hysteria" I mean your insistence that those who have said that it would be difficult for the administration to craft an appropriate remedy are just telling the OP "Screw you!" Also, the notion that the insertion of extra copies of the instruction sheet in an exam is significant strikes me as hysterical in itself.  

4. No, you didn't use the word "hypocrite."  But I think that's a fair characterization of your accusations -- that we are applying one standard to others that we would not apply to ourselves.  Here are a few examples I pulled out without reading the whole mind-numbing thread:

One of the things I really dislike about the legal field are all these people who are so quick to cry "personal responsibility" when it comes to others when you KNOW they'd be kicking and screaming (and probably suing) if the misfortune were their own.  The practice of law either attracts or creates these kinds of personalities, I'm not sure which.    

your (no doubt universally applied, ;)) doctrine of personal responsibility.  

But I can't stand all this "personal responsibility" moralizing. ... I think that's totally unreasonable and I seriously doubt (perhaps unfairly) that any one holding the OP to that standard would hold him/herself to it in the same or similar situation.



Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 07, 2009, 06:40:21 PM
jesus are you tightly wound.  please go ahead and take a break, it will be good for you.

lol, I love it.  You've been arguing with people about this for days, with a good deal of hysteria and completely unwarranted personal insults thrown in for good measure.  Plenty of posters in this forum have the standing to tell me that I'm too tightly wound, but I hardly think you're one of them.

You read this as saying that there are certain "influential posters" with "standing"? :D I'm afraid that's a bit of a Rorschach test.  In case it's unclear to anyone else (which I doubt), I meant that ISUCKTHIS seemed just as tightly wound as I did and it was therefore the pot calling the kettle black.

Whatever.  What I do know is that you'll keep obsessing about all this silly crap so much so that you have to seek outside assistance when your intellect fails.  That and you need the emotional crutch.  Talk about co-dependency.  You need emotional support when all you're doing is trading ideas about whether or not someone else's exam administration was fair.  Sheesh.

There's no need for you to comment any more here.  I get you and, obviously, it's unfair for me to engage in frank discussion with you.

You'll be a hell of an attorney, LOL.

Dude, if you think my intellect has failed, why don't you actually try responding to one of my substantive posts instead of engaging in this armchair psychoanalysis, however astute I'm sure it is.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 07, 2009, 06:42:39 PM
"You read this as saying that there are certain "influential posters" with "standing"?  I'm afraid that's a bit of a Rorschach test.  In case it's unclear to anyone else (which I doubt), I meant that ISUCKTHIS seemed just as tightly wound as I did and it was therefore the pot calling the kettle black."

You said that he lacked the "standing" to say that you were tightly wound while other posters had such "standing."  It's up there and in print.  Since I have quoted it, you can't delete it.  Quit lying about something everybody can read for themselves.

Wow, what a trainwreck.

I'm starting to feel sorry for you.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 07, 2009, 06:52:47 PM
"You read this as saying that there are certain "influential posters" with "standing"?  I'm afraid that's a bit of a Rorschach test.  In case it's unclear to anyone else (which I doubt), I meant that ISUCKTHIS seemed just as tightly wound as I did and it was therefore the pot calling the kettle black."

You said that he lacked the "standing" to say that you were tightly wound.  It's up there and in print.  Since I have quoted it, you can't delete it.  Quit lying about something everybody can read for themselves.

Wow, what a meltdown.

I'm starting to feel sorry for you.

I guess I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you don't go to law school yet.  I didn't mean social standing.  I meant standing like legal standing, the showing a party has to make to bring a lawsuit about something.  Basically, she needs to allege a connection to the problem and some kind of harm from it.  There's also a related concept of "unclean hands."  One defense to a lawsuit is that the plaintiff is acting badly him or herself.  I didn't realize this was such a specialized usage.  But really, this is getting to be a bit much.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 07, 2009, 06:59:36 PM
Yeah, I see. 

You were really talking about how SUCKY can't bring a law suit against you for being tightly wound because he "needs to allege a connection to the problem and some kind of harm from it."  That makes complete sense  ???

I understand  ;) that you are not lying now, but you were lying two posts ago when you said that you meant:

"You read this as saying that there are certain "influential posters" with "standing"? Cheesy I'm afraid that's a bit of a Rorschach test.  In case it's unclear to anyone else (which I doubt), I meant that ISUCKTHIS seemed just as tightly wound as I did and it was therefore the pot calling the kettle black."

LOL.  If you're in a hole, stop digging.

Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 07, 2009, 07:04:20 PM
Yeah, I see. 

You were really talking about how SUCKY can't bring a law suit against you for being tightly wound because he "needs to allege a connection to the problem and some kind of harm from it."  That makes complete sense  ???

I understand  ;) that you are not lying now, but you were lying two posts ago when you said that you meant:

"You read this as saying that there are certain "influential posters" with "standing"? Cheesy I'm afraid that's a bit of a Rorschach test.  In case it's unclear to anyone else (which I doubt), I meant that ISUCKTHIS seemed just as tightly wound as I did and it was therefore the pot calling the kettle black."

LOL.  If you're in a hole, stop digging.

You know what?  If you ever do develop an elementary understanding of what "standing" means, you'll probably feel a little embarrassed about how you freaked out on someone on the LAW SCHOOL DISCUSSION board like this, but I really can't help you any further. 
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 07, 2009, 07:05:10 PM
By the way, Miss P Esquire, the doctrine of "unclean hands" applies to actions in equity.  Standing, which applies to actions in equity and in law, comprises:  

(1) injury in fact

(2) a causal relationship between the injury and the challenged conduct

(3) a likelihood that the injury will be redressed by a favorable decision






Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 07, 2009, 07:21:44 PM
Which law school do you go to, out of curiosity? 
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 07, 2009, 07:24:40 PM
Which law school do you go to, out of curiosity? 

Yeah, I'm not super interested in giving you personal information about me given your kind of freaky behavior in this thread.  It's all out there if you really care.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 07, 2009, 07:26:25 PM
"It's all out there" being the operative phrase.  Best hope your professors don't read this.

Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: This is wrong. on May 07, 2009, 07:50:33 PM
By the way, Miss P Esquire, the doctrine of "unclean hands" applies to actions in equity.  Standing, which applies to actions in equity and in law primarily to challenge the constitutionality of a law, comprises:  

(1) injury in fact

(2) a causal relationship between the injury and the challenged conduct

(3) a likelihood that the injury will be redressed by a favorable decision









::smh::
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 07, 2009, 08:48:05 PM
I don't know what is going on here, but I want no part of this.  You people deserve each other.

You're a bunch of f@cking idiots going on and on about very little.

Incidentally, Miss P, I think you're totally off base.  That said, I obviously care a lot less about this than you do.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 07, 2009, 09:08:06 PM
I don't know what is going on here, but I want no part of this.  You people deserve each other.

You're a bunch of f@cking idiots going on and on about very little.

Obviously things got a little out of hand.  Sorry.  I get a little high strung during exam season.

Incidentally, Miss P, I think you're totally off base.  That said, I obviously care a lot less about this than you do.

Fair enough.  If you ever try to explain how I'm off base, I'll be happy to reconsider my positions or admit fault where appropriate.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: StevePirates on May 08, 2009, 12:13:09 AM
Not necessarily.  Although personally, I'm a fan of the oxford comma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma)


Strunk & White want the last comma, and that's good enough for me.  Interesting to know that it's optional.  I generally think that more commas are better.  Put, commas everywhere, that you want, to, it's fun,!
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Scentless Apprentice on May 08, 2009, 12:43:01 AM
Don't stop...

My only request is that you get nastier & a little more personal.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: This is wrong. on May 08, 2009, 02:17:14 AM
I don't know what is going on here, but I want no part of this.  You people deserve each other.

You're a bunch of f@cking idiots going on and on about very little.

Incidentally, Miss P, I think you're totally off base.  That said, I obviously care a lot less about this than you do.

LLOLz

Classic!!!

::partakes in argument, stokes fire, responds to posts for 15 pages, then pretends not to care and not to have stooped to all those idiots' levels::
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 08, 2009, 09:39:37 AM
I don't know what is going on here, but I want no part of this.  You people deserve each other.

You're a bunch of f@cking idiots going on and on about very little.

Incidentally, Miss P, I think you're totally off base.  That said, I obviously care a lot less about this than you do.

LLOLz

Classic!!!

::partakes in argument, stokes fire, responds to posts for 15 pages, then pretends not to care and not to have stooped to all those idiots' levels::

Dude, as far as I can tell you've never contributed so much a coherent sentence in 15 pages.  All you do is provide over-punctuated commentary rife with "LLOz" and "LLOLers" or whatever because you're some super-cool internet insider type who knows how to party and isn't afraid to show it off. 

While that's obviously totally awesome... here's a comment:  excessive punctuation is not a substitute for humor, intelligence or insight.

I don't mind commentary for the sake of self-amusement, but please... at least try to be funny.  Or at least creative.  Or at least original. Please give us something that's worth reading for any reason whatsoever.

Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 08, 2009, 09:48:50 AM
"Fair enough.  If you ever try to explain how I'm off base, I'll be happy to reconsider my positions or admit fault where appropriate."

I don't have standing for this, lol.    

Frankly, I think we've reached an impasse.  Why don't we both simply acknowledge what it is we're disagreeing about and move on? 

I think that the error made in the Drake student's case was one that could have affected students performance. I think on that basis alone, some action should be taken to correct the exam.  As far as I understand, you disagree with the idea that the administrative error could have affected performance.  Then, you think no action should be taken because, in your view, any action would be worse than the effect of the original mistake.

Why don't we just leave it there and agree to disagree? 

(as I, incidentally, tried to do about 4 pages ago)




Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 08, 2009, 12:33:56 PM
By the way, Miss P Esquire, the doctrine of "unclean hands" applies to actions in equity.  Standing, which applies to actions in equity and in law primarily to challenge the constitutionality of a law, comprises:  

(1) injury in fact

(2) a causal relationship between the injury and the challenged conduct

(3) a likelihood that the injury will be redressed by a favorable decision









::smh::

This from a guy who can barely speak english and has a grammatical error in his avatar.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 08, 2009, 12:35:15 PM
I don't know what is going on here, but I want no part of this.  You people deserve each other.

You're a bunch of f@cking idiots going on and on about very little.

Incidentally, Miss P, I think you're totally off base.  That said, I obviously care a lot less about this than you do.

You have no problem with me.  I'm just showing that Miss P is a @##@#'ing psycho.  The other guy is just background noise.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Matthies on May 08, 2009, 01:34:02 PM
jesus how did I miss this train wreck.

i had class where we had to create a huge involved project, each team met with the prof, he told each team what they neeed to do for thier project (so each had diffrent instuctions particular to that project to get thier grade) the day we turned them in, the professor died. They had anouther professor grade the projects who had never even tught the class. Was that fair, no, not really, but that's how they handeled it. Tuesday we lost anouther professor in a freak accindet, we was teaching two classes, exams already over with. Someone else will have to grad ethem. Fair when your write the exam for the prof? No. unexpected *&^% happens, mistakes happen, they can not allways be remidy compleatly fairly. Sometime you gotta just accept the fact that there is not real remdiy for the sitation and some folks will come out ahead and others will not. Such is life unpredicatbl and not usually very fair.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 08, 2009, 01:40:29 PM
I agree with your over-arching point, but (unless I missed something by reading too quickly) it seems like all the students were similarly affected in your scenarios.  Then, I don't think there's unfairness.

My opinion is that, if the administration makes a mistake that's likely to disadvantage some students, they should make up for it.  As I admitted, there's a lot of grey area.  Still, I think that there are at least some situations that can and ought to be remedied.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Matthies on May 08, 2009, 02:01:03 PM
I agree with your over-arching point, but (unless I missed something by reading too quickly) it seems like all the students were similarly affected in your scenarios.  Then, I don't think there's unfairness.

My opinion is that, if the administration makes a mistake that's likely to disadvantage some students, they should make up for it.  As I admitted, there's a lot of grey area.  Still, I think that there are at least some situations that can and ought to be remedied.

I donít know if all the students are going to be similarly affected or not, Whoever grades the exams is going to have pet issues that the original prof did not, you happen to make the right pet issue a focal point you will get more credit than you might have otherwise.

 I remember first year (I was not in this class) a visiting prof gave an exam that was literally taken right out one of the supplements. Those people who read that supplement got As. Huge stink about it. They did not change the grades, they decided to just not use that class for ranking so everyone sort of lost out or got a benefit if they did really bad.

Thing is there is never a right answer for these things that will make everyone happy. People who read all he pages are going to think its unfair that people who did not get credit for it. People who missed the pages think its not fair if they get penalized for it. No onanswer will make everyone happy.

*&^% happens, you gotta take the good with the bad. I know for sure some exams I got Aís on that I never deserved, they must have put the wrong letter on the wrong exam. And then there are classes where I honestly believe I got totally screwed out of a good grade.
 
For example Con law, my worst grade in law school, we were allowed to work with classmates on our exam. The only rule was you had to write your own answer (you could not jointly write it or one person write one the other the other) but you could discuss it as much as you wanted.

So me and my best bud sit across from each other at my dining room table talk through each questions, come up with the exact same answers, same cases, same rational and they we each write out our answers. He got second highest grade in the class, I got C+. You can look at our exams and the only thing different is word choice and sentence structures all the exact same arguments and defenses are there in the same order and everything. Nothing to explain his A and my C+, and other groups had the same experience, worked together same answers, but huge difference in grades. It was like he threw darts at the exams with letters on them.

*&^% just happens you gotta take the good with the bad and roll with the flow. When law schools exams are completely subjective affairs with no right answers nothing is ever going to be really fair.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 08, 2009, 02:11:39 PM
I agree that law school exam grading is totally subjective and your story about the C+/A is a real eye opener.  Based on what you wrote, however, I think we would draw different conclusions from the same set of circumstances. 

From my perspective, the fact that LS grading is so subjective makes it even more important for the administrative playing field to be totally level.  Form and style matter, even if the official line is that theyíre not supposed to.  Then, the state of mind of the exam taker matters (confidence, nervousness, whether or not he/she is rushing) even more than it would on a more objective test.  In my mind, thatís all the more reason to make sure that no student faces any extra burdens during the test administration than does any other.

Iím not saying this is the only way to see this issue, but thatís how I look at it.

All that said, I still maintain that Miss P and the beaver with leg warmers are Hitler and Mussolini, respectively. ;)  This, after all, is the main point of the thread and we shouldnl't veer too far off topic. 
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Matthies on May 08, 2009, 02:33:35 PM
I agree that law school exam grading is totally subjective and your story about the C+/A is a real eye opener.  Based on what you wrote, however, I think we would draw different conclusions from the same set of circumstances. 

From my perspective, the fact that LS grading is so subjective makes it even more important for the administrative playing field to be totally level.  Form and style matter, even if the official line is that theyíre not supposed to.  Then, the state of mind of the exam taker matters (confidence, nervousness, whether or not he/she is rushing) even more than it would on a more objective test.  In my mind, thatís all the more reason to make sure that no student faces any extra burdens during the test administration than does any other.

Iím not saying this is the only way to see this issue, but thatís how I look at it.

All that said, I still maintain that Miss P and the beaver with leg warmers are Hitler and Mussolini, respectively. ;)  This, after all, is the main point of the thread and we shouldnl't veer too far off topic. 



Yea I certainly think there are different ways to see it. I guess I see it the way I see it because Iíve been through this crap for five years now (JD + LLM/MLS) and like I said to you in another thread, nothing in law school surprises me anymore and Iíve given up trying to make sense of it or thinks itís a fair process, its not.

Another example that just happened to me today. I took my last law school exam ever last tonight. Today I get a call from the registrar asking if I turned in my exam. I start to freak out, yes I turned in my exam! They donít have it. No exam for me. The log shows I turned in my exam but its nowhere to be found. There is no copy of the exam. Iím almost hyper ventilating at this point. My last class, last exam and my test is missing. Not at all my fault, registrar has me as turning it, but its gone. So a few more minutes of reconstructing my last moments turning it in and they are able to figure out it got misplaced on a chair. OMG heart attack averted.

But what if they never found it? What then? What options? Retake the test after I already know the questions and can look up the answers? Take a median grade even though I might have gotten an A and I need this class to make honors? Give me an A because they lost it even though maybe I did C work? If they do that then to make the curve work someone has to get bumped down to a A- that deserved an A.

Its not my fault, but what can the administration do to make it right, anything they do screws me for something 100% not my fault and impossible for me to correct for. Itís a classic no win situation. Nothing they can do will make it fair to me or to my classmates. Thank god I did not have to face that dilemma, but I was ready for it. I was ready to get screwed because sometimes that what happens in life. You do everything right and you still get the shaft. What may seem fair to me, give me an A, is not fair to the A- guy. Itís a no win situation without any fair resolution. Thatís life sometimes, *&^% happens. Sure I would be pissed and mad, but thatís not going to change the fact that it is a losing situation all the way around and nothing can be done to make it ďright.Ē


Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on May 08, 2009, 02:34:01 PM
It's a hedgehog, thank you very much. And they're casts. Get it right.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 08, 2009, 02:37:44 PM
mussolinisayswhat?
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 08, 2009, 02:41:04 PM
I agree that law school exam grading is totally subjective and your story about the C+/A is a real eye opener.  Based on what you wrote, however, I think we would draw different conclusions from the same set of circumstances. 

From my perspective, the fact that LS grading is so subjective makes it even more important for the administrative playing field to be totally level.  Form and style matter, even if the official line is that theyíre not supposed to.  Then, the state of mind of the exam taker matters (confidence, nervousness, whether or not he/she is rushing) even more than it would on a more objective test.  In my mind, thatís all the more reason to make sure that no student faces any extra burdens during the test administration than does any other.

Iím not saying this is the only way to see this issue, but thatís how I look at it.

All that said, I still maintain that Miss P and the beaver with leg warmers are Hitler and Mussolini, respectively. ;)  This, after all, is the main point of the thread and we shouldnl't veer too far off topic. 



Yea I certainly think there are different ways to see it. I guess I see it the way I see it because Iíve been through this crap for five years now (JD + LLM/MLS) and like I said to you in another thread, nothing in law school surprises me anymore and Iíve given up trying to make sense of it or thinks itís a fair process, its not.

Another example that just happened to me today. I took my last law school exam ever last tonight. Today I get a call from the registrar asking if I turned in my exam. I start to freak out, yes I turned in my exam! They donít have it. No exam for me. The log shows I turned in my exam but its nowhere to be found. There is no copy of the exam. Iím almost hyper ventilating at this point. My last class, last exam and my test is missing. Not at all my fault, registrar has me as turning it, but its gone. So a few more minutes of reconstructing my last moments turning it in and they are able to figure out it got misplaced on a chair. OMG heart attack averted.

But what if they never found it? What then? What options? Retake the test after I already know the questions and can look up the answers? Take a median grade even though I might have gotten an A and I need this class to make honors? Give me an A because they lost it even though maybe I did C work? If they do that then to make the curve work someone has to get bumped down to a A- that deserved an A.

Its not my fault, but what can the administration do to make it right, anything they do screws me for something 100% not my fault and impossible for me to correct for. Itís a classic no win situation. Nothing they can do will make it fair to me or to my classmates. Thank god I did not have to face that dilemma, but I was ready for it. I was ready to get screwed because sometimes that what happens in life. You do everything right and you still get the shaft. What may seem fair to me, give me an A, is not fair to the A- guy. Itís a no win situation without any fair resolution. Thatís life sometimes, poo happens. Sure I would be pissed and mad, but thatís not going to change the fact that it is a losing situation all the way around and nothing can be done to make it ďright.Ē




Yeah, but so what then?  Do you think that if it had not been found (the exam) you should have failed automatically?  I can't believe you do.  I certainly don't.

I'm not sure what the best way to remedy that situation would be, as you indicate it would be tricky.  But surely automatically failing you for their losing the exam wouldn't be on the table as an option.  Not in my universe, anyway.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 08, 2009, 02:52:34 PM
mussolinisayswhat?

Before you guys start burning effigies, please note that I am kidding.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Matthies on May 08, 2009, 02:57:55 PM
I agree that law school exam grading is totally subjective and your story about the C+/A is a real eye opener.  Based on what you wrote, however, I think we would draw different conclusions from the same set of circumstances. 

From my perspective, the fact that LS grading is so subjective makes it even more important for the administrative playing field to be totally level.  Form and style matter, even if the official line is that theyíre not supposed to.  Then, the state of mind of the exam taker matters (confidence, nervousness, whether or not he/she is rushing) even more than it would on a more objective test.  In my mind, thatís all the more reason to make sure that no student faces any extra burdens during the test administration than does any other.

Iím not saying this is the only way to see this issue, but thatís how I look at it.

All that said, I still maintain that Miss P and the beaver with leg warmers are Hitler and Mussolini, respectively. ;)  This, after all, is the main point of the thread and we shouldnl't veer too far off topic. 



Yea I certainly think there are different ways to see it. I guess I see it the way I see it because Iíve been through this crap for five years now (JD + LLM/MLS) and like I said to you in another thread, nothing in law school surprises me anymore and Iíve given up trying to make sense of it or thinks itís a fair process, its not.

Another example that just happened to me today. I took my last law school exam ever last tonight. Today I get a call from the registrar asking if I turned in my exam. I start to freak out, yes I turned in my exam! They donít have it. No exam for me. The log shows I turned in my exam but its nowhere to be found. There is no copy of the exam. Iím almost hyper ventilating at this point. My last class, last exam and my test is missing. Not at all my fault, registrar has me as turning it, but its gone. So a few more minutes of reconstructing my last moments turning it in and they are able to figure out it got misplaced on a chair. OMG heart attack averted.

But what if they never found it? What then? What options? Retake the test after I already know the questions and can look up the answers? Take a median grade even though I might have gotten an A and I need this class to make honors? Give me an A because they lost it even though maybe I did C work? If they do that then to make the curve work someone has to get bumped down to a A- that deserved an A.

Its not my fault, but what can the administration do to make it right, anything they do screws me for something 100% not my fault and impossible for me to correct for. Itís a classic no win situation. Nothing they can do will make it fair to me or to my classmates. Thank god I did not have to face that dilemma, but I was ready for it. I was ready to get screwed because sometimes that what happens in life. You do everything right and you still get the shaft. What may seem fair to me, give me an A, is not fair to the A- guy. Itís a no win situation without any fair resolution. Thatís life sometimes, poo happens. Sure I would be pissed and mad, but thatís not going to change the fact that it is a losing situation all the way around and nothing can be done to make it ďright.Ē




Yeah, but so what then?  Do you think that if it had not been found (the exam) you should have failed automatically?  I can't believe you do.  I certainly don't.

I'm not sure what the best way to remedy that situation would be, as you indicate it would be tricky.  But surely automatically failing you for their losing the exam wouldn't be on the table as an option.  Not in my universe, anyway.

Yea no way would I have stood for failing when they had my name in the log, had the log not been there then that could have been a real option I guess. I don't know, like I said its an unwinable situation no mater the outcome most likley I, or possible my classmates get screwed. No fair solution to me or anyone else.

But with 800 people turning in exams every semester I canít be the first person this has happened to, and I wonít be the last. Yes itís the registrars fault if it was lost, but again what to do to make it right? Iím certainly not without sin myself, Iíve lost *&^% that was very important to other people to their detriment. Iím not infallible and neither are the best rules to protect this from happing at the registrars office. Accidents happen. I doubt Iíll make it though my legal career without screwing something up that hurts a client even though I had best inteions.  It would not do anyone any good for me to come on here and female dog about the admistration, mistakes happen. It just happened to be my number that got drawn this time, luckily for me we did not have to chose between evils to fix it.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: This is wrong. on May 08, 2009, 03:26:29 PM

Dude, as far as I can tell you've never contributed so much a coherent sentence in 15 pages.  All you do is provide over-punctuated commentary rife with "LLOz" and "LLOLers" or whatever because you're some super-cool internet insider type who knows how to party and isn't afraid to show it off. 


Aaaaaaaaand I quote:

I'm going to dissect the OP and then provide the analysis.  If you still don't get it then, well... @#!* off and die.

It seems like Third Tier law schools can do nothing right. In this semesterís Drake University Law School Business Associations exam taught by Professor Doreís, the pages in the exam packets were so woefully out of order that students taking the exam were completely unaware of the last two and most heavily weighted questions on the exam. The pages preceding the last two pages containing those questions were actually a repeat of the ďinstructions pageĒ (incompetently inserted into some students packets at least three times) making it appear that the students were almost finished when there were actually 2 more pages waiting for them. In other words, as the students were looking through the pages and saw the repeat of the instructions they assumed the torture was almost over. By the time Dean Henin and other students realized the error, the students had an hour to answer questions with suggested times totaling an hour and half. Not big deal if it happened to everyone right? Think again. In another stroke of Third Tier School genius, 2L and 3L exams are self-scheduledónever mind the concerns about cheating because that would be too obviousóso only a few (un)lucky ones were affected while everyone else gets to pleasure of taking the exam without having to play scavenger hunt for questions.
 
The Deans havenít issued a resolution to problem but it wouldnít be surprising if they blamed the error on a Third Tier copy machine.
 
In this economyófilled with associate deferrals, layoffs, and forced pay-cutsóstudents at smaller Third Tier schools like Drake are already at a disadvantage in a secondary market like Iowa.  Letís hope the Deans donít punish the responsible students who prepared diligently for the exam to take it early while letting procrastinating members of the course enjoy the benefit of a correctly proctored exam earned on the backs of an unlucky few, like myself.
 
-Anonymous

The Steps

1.  Pages were out of order in the exam.
2.  The instructions page was inserted numerous times in the wrong spots, leading to confusion.
3.  Some students missed the last two questions because of this error... that is, until they had an hour left (rather than the allotted hour and a half).
4.  This was an administration of a self-scheduled exam.
5.  As a result, only a small proportion of students taking the exam experienced this series of events.
6.  Putative: Early exam takers are diligent while later (self-scheduled) exam takers are procrastinators.
7.  Putative: The procrastinators will benefit from this error at the diligent's expense.

Do we agree on this so far?  I would find it difficult to believe that we don't agree on this much.  It's all right there in the post above.

The Analysis

So whose fault is it?  You posed this as the central dilemma earlier, and I don't think anyone really disagrees.

1.  It's not the students' fault that the exam was out of order.  That much is certain.  But that's not the issue.
2.  The issue is this: could the students have prevented any part of this?  The answer is simple: yes.  A quick scan of the exam would have revealed the flaws.  At the most, it would've cost 5 minutes of their time. 
     [A.  Nowhere is it made clear just how many of the students actually made this mistake and lost out on half an hour of writing time.
     B.  We are thus left to assume that all of the students in this particular administration of the exam made this mistake.  I doubt this, but I'll let it go.]
3.  Did this place them at a disadvantage compared to students who took a correctly proctored exam?  Yes.  Slightly.  And here is the error of your argument.
4.  It is fallacious, once the result is known (i.e. that these students "lost" 30 minutes of exam time), to look back and assume that this result is the only (or the most likely) outcome of the particular set of circumstances listed above in Steps 1 and 2.  How does this apply?
5.  A very obvious, simple, and extremely common step would have salvaged the situation completely, putting this group of students on par with any of the other "procrastinators" who did not "suffer" from this odd set of circumstances.  This step, as exam takers are prompted to do before every exam, is to quickly read through the exam to make sure things are in order and things make sense.
6.  You know what?  Hey, that's exactly analogous to the anecdote I related!  You see...
7.  The "procrastinators" are irrelevant here.  They didn't get a substantially different exam.  According to the OP's story, they simply got an exam with a few less pages.  In other words, their exams didn't have duplicated instructions anywhere.  The questions were exactly the same.  They were in the same order.  They had the same time allotments.
8.  It's because of the ease, simplicity, and obviousness of the remedy that would have prevented any of this bitching and moaning (i.e. checking your exam before you plunge into it) that people in this thread who are normally extremely forgiving are turning to the "personal responsibility" argument you detest so much.
9.  That "argument", as you frame it, by the way, is a red herring.  These posters are empathetic.  Most of us have been through something similar.  It really, really sucks.  But given the parameters as framed by the OP, (a) the duplicate pages were really not that big a deal, and (b) the whole situation could've been avoided, so (c) why would you punish wholly innocent students for it?
(10.  Perhaps, if the OP is so "diligent", she might have been more "diligent" in reading through her exam before starting it?  Mmm?)


ETA:  Replaced a key word I accidentally erased before posting.

Comment: next time, respond to an argument BEFORE you pretend someone's just a troll.

(Not that I'm saying I'm not a troll, of course.)
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: This is wrong. on May 08, 2009, 03:32:21 PM
My opinion is that, if the administration makes a mistake that's likely to disadvantage some students, they should make up for it.  As I admitted, there's a lot of grey area.  Still, I think that there are at least some situations that can and ought to be remedied.

And, within this context, you're wrong.

1.  This mistake did not lead to a severe disadvantage.
2.  The potential remedies are unfair to other students.

Now please stop creating alts to populate this thread in your own support.  You're completely transparent.  We played your game for a while because it's kind of fun, but you should know that it's not particularly novel.  If you feel so aggrieved, try talking to your Dean again.  If they tell you to @#!* off a second time, it's because they're right.  But who knows, maybe your diligence will pay off, oh Diligent One.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 08, 2009, 03:43:55 PM
My opinion is that, if the administration makes a mistake that's likely to disadvantage some students, they should make up for it.  As I admitted, there's a lot of grey area.  Still, I think that there are at least some situations that can and ought to be remedied.

And, within this context, you're wrong.

1.  This mistake did not lead to a severe disadvantage.
2.  The potential remedies are unfair to other students.

Now please stop creating alts to populate this thread in your own support.  You're completely transparent.  We played your game for a while because it's kind of fun, but you should know that it's not particularly novel.  If you feel so aggrieved, try talking to your Dean again.  If they tell you to @#!* off a second time, it's because they're right.  But who knows, maybe your diligence will pay off, oh Diligent One.

Now you're accusing me of being the Drake university student who started this thread?

Dude, you're a f@cking freak.  I'm a patent agent in a large city on the east coast.  I didn't even know where Drake university was until I googled it.  In fact, no offense to OP, when I read the thread the first time I thought it was Duke.

You're an ass and you are not worthy of my time. 
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: luke on May 08, 2009, 03:44:48 PM
must be finals time (http://www.davidmiles.net/IMAGES/large_4Horsemen.jpg)
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: This is wrong. on May 08, 2009, 03:46:40 PM
must be finals time (http://www.davidmiles.net/IMAGES/large_4Horsemen.jpg)

Hilarious. 

I hate this incarnation of you.  Much too schoolmarmish.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: This is wrong. on May 08, 2009, 03:50:32 PM
My opinion is that, if the administration makes a mistake that's likely to disadvantage some students, they should make up for it.  As I admitted, there's a lot of grey area.  Still, I think that there are at least some situations that can and ought to be remedied.

And, within this context, you're wrong.

1.  This mistake did not lead to a severe disadvantage.
2.  The potential remedies are unfair to other students.

Now please stop creating alts to populate this thread in your own support.  You're completely transparent.  We played your game for a while because it's kind of fun, but you should know that it's not particularly novel.  If you feel so aggrieved, try talking to your Dean again.  If they tell you to @#!* off a second time, it's because they're right.  But who knows, maybe your diligence will pay off, oh Diligent One.

Now you're accusing me of being the Drake university student who started this thread?

Dude, you're a f@cking freak.  I'm a patent agent in a large city on the east coast.  I didn't even know where Drake university was until I googled it.  In fact, no offense to OP, when I read the thread the first time I thought it was Duke.
 

 :D :D :D
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Matthies on May 08, 2009, 06:04:54 PM
serioulsy how in the hell did this thread get to 18 pages in two days? I start athread about the compleat meltdown of the legal industry and it gets like five hits, this drivel spans on and on. And where the hell is Drake anyway?
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 08, 2009, 06:06:31 PM
Drake is somewhere in Iowa.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Matthies on May 08, 2009, 06:10:03 PM
Drake is somewhere in Iowa.

is it ranked below me so that I may mock it?

Also this thread is geting more hits than an AA oone, I may have to kitty bomb it
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 08, 2009, 06:10:55 PM
You may certainly mock it.  What's a kitty bomb?
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Matthies on May 08, 2009, 06:14:42 PM
Drake is somewhere in Iowa.

is it ranked below me so that I may mock it?

Also this thread is geting more hits than an AA oone, I may have to kitty bomb it

Yeah, what ever happened to puppying threads?

BTW, confirm for me just how wrong this guy is, so he can move on with his day.

You are wrong about him, but his a terrior and can probaly out last you in this game.

A kitty bomb is when you kill a thread by posting lots of pictures of cute kittens in it, some folks do puppies I do kitties
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Matthies on May 08, 2009, 06:22:44 PM
No you're not.

You can win this one, trust me. Heís a regular on one of those most evil vicious message boards around. Those folks there would eat me and you alive and make us cry like prepubescent girls, no joke, they are professional agitators.

Ok, Iím off to get drunk, good luck on your last finalÖand use HEADINGS!
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 08, 2009, 06:57:07 PM
LOL.  Sure, Irrx. 
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 08, 2009, 11:40:25 PM
"Fair enough.  If you ever try to explain how I'm off base, I'll be happy to reconsider my positions or admit fault where appropriate."

I don't have standing for this, lol.    

Frankly, I think we've reached an impasse.  Why don't we both simply acknowledge what it is we're disagreeing about and move on? 

I think that the error made in the Drake student's case was one that could have affected students performance. I think on that basis alone, some action should be taken to correct the exam.  As far as I understand, you disagree with the idea that the administrative error could have affected performance.  Then, you think no action should be taken because, in your view, any action would be worse than the effect of the original mistake.

Why don't we just leave it there and agree to disagree? 

(as I, incidentally, tried to do about 4 pages ago)

Yes, I can see that you've done a great job of letting things go too. ;)

As it happens, I already agreed with you that the error made in the Drake student's case was one that could have affected a student's performance on the basis that it did, indeed, apparently affect this student's performance.  This is not where we disagree.  We disagree about whether it is reasonable for it to have affected this student's performance as much as it reportedly did and about whether there is an appropriate remedy after the fact.  Given that all of your proposed solutions other than the separate curve impose knowable, and in some cases quantifiable, hardships on a larger number of students, they are not appropriate remedies.  If the exam was unfair for this one student or for all of the students who took the test early, it's no improvement to make it unfair to others as well.  I think this is especially the case given that this student could have avoided hardship by looking through the exam before writing.

From my perspective, the fact that LS grading is so subjective makes it even more important for the administrative playing field to be totally level.  Form and style matter, even if the official line is that theyíre not supposed to.  Then, the state of mind of the exam taker matters (confidence, nervousness, whether or not he/she is rushing) even more than it would on a more objective test.  In my mind, thatís all the more reason to make sure that no student faces any extra burdens during the test administration than does any other.

No one here disagrees that it is important for the playing field to be level.  We are merely discussing what, if anything, can and should be done when it is not.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 09, 2009, 09:24:51 AM
"No one here disagrees that it is important for the playing field to be level.  We are merely discussing what, if anything, can and should be done when it is not."

Exactly.  And based on reams and reams of discussion, I think there are substantially different views on that subject.  I also think that we're not going to reach a consensus.  I am content with that.

As an aside, it's kind of hilarious that Irrx engages in pages upon pages of discussion, sleeps on it, gets embarrassed about it and then deletes it all the next day.  What a little weenie.  Not that he shouldn't have been embarrassed...
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2009, 09:55:39 AM
"No one here disagrees that it is important for the playing field to be level.  We are merely discussing what, if anything, can and should be done when it is not."

Exactly.  And based on reams and reams of discussion, I think there are substantially different views on that subject.  I also think that we're not going to reach a consensus.  I am content with that.

Cool.  I was just pointing out (1) that you had misconstrued my position in your post that purported to outline our differences; (2) that this particular point about the importance of maintaining a level playing field didn't do a lot to advance the discussion (except that it perhaps implies that the people who disagree with you about the poorly copied exam disagree with you about this -- which is false); and (3) that you never actually engaged in a discussion about the fundamental disagreement in this thread beyond saying, summarily, that your admittedly unfair solutions were better than doing nothing.

As an aside, it's kind of hilarious that Irrx engages in pages upon pages of discussion, sleeps on it, gets embarrassed about it and then deletes it all the next day.  What a little weenie.  Not that he shouldn't have been embarrassed...

Don't take this as a mark of pride.  IrrX deletes all of his posts, and it doesn't have anything to do with you.  (I personally don't understand d-dubbing -- obviously ;) -- but a lot of posters do it.)
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 09, 2009, 10:00:38 AM
Oh believe me, I don't take it as a mark of pride.  I have the same feeling one would get after beating a beating a 4th grader at a geography quiz.  Winning is still embarrassing, even if losing would be more so.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2009, 10:05:35 AM
While you're here, can I ask --

You understood exactly what I was saying about your "standing" to tell me I was too tightly wound, right?  I noticed you made some kind of remark about it somewhere in the last few pages, but I wanted to make sure.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 09, 2009, 10:11:05 AM
You're a scab-picker, eh? 


In short:  I wasn't ever truly offended by anything you wrote, I'm quite sure I didn't really understand but now I really really do not want to go back there.

To be honest, I did not read your remark about standing to mean that I would not have standing to bring a law suit against you for being tightly wound.  I read your use of "standing" as the plain and ordinary meaning not the legal one.  That's how I read it, maybe not how you meant it. 

I find the whole thing very confusing and I do not want to revisit it for no better reason than to avoid the firestorm of incredibly personal and inane discussion that followed. 
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2009, 10:19:01 AM
You're a scab-picker, eh? 


In short:  I wasn't ever offended, didn't really understand but really really do not want to go there.

To be honest, I did not read your remark about standing to mean that I would not have standing to bring a law suit against you for being tightly wound.  I read your use of "standing" as the plain and ordinary meaning not the legal one.  That's how I read it, maybe not how you meant it. 

To be honest, I find that very confusing and I do not want to revisit it for no better reason than to avoid the firestorm of incredibly personal and inane discussion that followed. 

Actually, I wanted to clarify because I am a nice person and I didn't want you to have the wrong idea about why I have disagreed with you and been dismissive of some of your positions.  I figured it was clear to anyone remotely more reasonable than PILOFILO, but since you had brought it up kind of ambiguously, I wanted to make sure.  I suppose you can classify that as scab-picking if you wish. 

And not that I should have to explain this since obviously you weren't filing a lawsuit against me, but I didn't mean "legal standing" in any sort of literal or technical sense.  Sheesh.  I meant, "You're hardly in the position to tell me . . . "  And in case that is itself unclear, by "position," I meant not position on some imaginary social hierarchy, but position with respect to the question at issue.  I honestly found it hard to believe that this would be confusing for any culturally literate person, particularly one with a year or more of law school under his belt.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 09, 2009, 10:25:26 AM
"I honestly find it hard to believe that this would be confusing for any culturally literate person, particularly one with a year or more of law school under his belt."

That's kind of an obnoxious thing to say.  Anyway, I'm leaving this where it is.  You can have it.  You can also feel free to call me "culturally illiterate," ignorant or whatever. 

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/standing
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2009, 10:29:35 AM
"I honestly find it hard to believe that this would be confusing for any culturally literate person, particularly one with a year or more of law school under his belt."

That's kind of an obnoxious thing to say.  Anyway, I'm leaving this where it is.  You can have it.  You can also feel free to call me "culturally illiterate," ignorant or whatever. 

I see how it came off badly.  That's not what I meant, though.  I meant that I didn't realize my comment would be confusing to you because I had blinders on about whether my usage was specialized.  Again, I understand why you took it the way you did because I worded it sloppily, but I was actually trying to say that I assume you are culturally literate, just as I assume you have had at least a year of law school under your belt.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: dashrashi on May 09, 2009, 10:56:01 AM
I don't believe in personal responsibility! First Amendment Says!

(hi all.)

(no, but, like, actually. it's jon hanson's fault.)
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2009, 11:09:01 AM
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/standing

I don't know what you intend this to say.  I was referring to either sense 3 or sense 6 5, which I assumed one could gather from context.  Frankly, I think it revealing of other people's insecurities that they would twist this into some kind of assessment of a social hierarchy on a LAW SCHOOL DISCUSSION board.  In any case, I only commented because you had brought it up again.  I was trying to be friendly, but I can see it didn't go over well with you, so I'll leave it be.  I hope you are a little less prickly in real life.

ETA: I have been corrected; I meant 5, not 6.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 09, 2009, 11:16:44 AM
No, I'm way worse in real life.  My eyes glow bright red and I breathe fire.

#6?  Really?  I should have seen that. 

Of course you weren't hitting on definitions 1 and 2, even though these are the two most common meanings and they appear to be perfectly compatible with your post.  You're way too "nice" of a "culturally literate" person to be using the plain and ordinary meaning of the word. 

You weren't hitting on definition 3 in any literal sense because, of course, the idea that I could bring a law suit against your for being tightly wound is absurd.  This is despite the fact that you actually posted you were using the "legal" definition of standing and that this should be obvious because you were posting on a law school chat board. 

#'s 4 and 5 are out because we're all probably sitting down. 

No, obviously you were hitting on the 'ol law school chat board sporting analogy nexus in #6. You meant to refer to the "standings" of posters here because those "standings" provide "a listing of individual competitors or of teams in a league according to their record of performance" which would show that my comment about your being tightly wound was illegitimate.

(this is sarcasm)

Quote
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2009, 11:51:16 AM
No, I'm way worse in real life.  My eyes glow bright red and I breathe fire.

#6?  Really?  I should have seen that. 

Of course you weren't hitting on definitions 1 and 2, even though these are the two most common meanings and they appear to be perfectly compatible with your post.  You're way too "nice" of a "culturally literate" person to be using the plain and ordinary meaning of the word. 

You weren't hitting on definition 3 in any literal sense because, of course, the idea that I could bring a law suit against your for being tightly wound is absurd.  This is despite the fact that you actually posted you were using the "legal" definition of standing and that this should be obvious because you were posting on a law school chat board. 

#'s 4 and 5 are out because we're all probably sitting down. 

No, obviously you were hitting on the 'ol law school chat board sporting analogy nexus in #6. You meant to refer to the "standings" of posters here because those "standings" provide "a listing of individual competitors or of teams in a league according to their record of performance" which would show that my comment about your being tightly wound was illegitimate.

(this is sarcasm)

Quote

Oops, sorry, I meant 5 -- place where someone stands, i.e., your position.  I got the number wrong.  Anyway, carry on.  I really don't quite understand what you think I meant, but we obviously don't communicate well and my efforts to clarify aren't helping.  Good day.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 09, 2009, 12:00:34 PM
Oh, so now you mean #5?  But that, of course, would have to mean some crazy nuanced, figurative interpretation of "A place where a person or thing stands." 

Still, let's try it out...

"Plenty of posters in this forum have the [place where a person or thing stands] to tell me that I'm too tightly wound, but I hardly think you're one of them."

To the culturally illiterate dumbass, that appears to makes no sense in the context of your original post whatsoever.  I suppose it's just a coincidence that 1, the most commonly used meaning, fits so well:

1a:  "Plenty of posters in this forum have the [Status with respect to rank, reputation, or position in society or a profession] to tell me that I'm too tightly wound, but I hardly think you're one of them."

1b:  "Plenty of posters in this forum have the [High reputation; esteem;  standing in the community] to tell me that I'm too tightly wound, but I hardly think you're one of them."

Just pure blind unfortunate luck that serves to confuse us culturally illiterate, prickly and legally inept folk.

I probably don't have to mention this, but lol.

Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2009, 12:13:21 PM
Oh, so now you mean #5?  But that, of course, would have to mean some crazy nuanced, figurative interpretation of "A place where a person or thing stands."  That makes no sense in the context of your original post whatsoever.  I suppose it's just a coincidence that only 1 and 2 make sense in your original post.  Just pure blind unfortunate luck that serves to confuse us culturally illiterate, prickly and legally inept folk.

I probably don't have to mention this, but lol.

Dude, for the last time, I didn't call you culturally illiterate or legally inept.  My post assumed that you were culturally literate.  I understand that the way I wrote it was ambiguous, but I explained full well exactly what I meant.  If you choose not to believe me, that's on you.

Also, for all the talk of how this thread got deeply personal, the only direct personal remarks I made about other posters were that you and PILOFILO were being rude, a comment on your behavior and not on your character or life.  You know why?  I don't know you or anything about you.  I also implied at one point that you were a little tightly wound, which was, again, a comment on your behavior in the thread, and not a personal insult.  Finally, yes, I called you prickly a few minutes ago.  If you want to know why, it's because you seem to be very sensitive about this obvious misunderstanding, and your posts are filled with hostility that I don't get.  I can't help you if you believe that there is a social hierarchy on a discussion board like this -- I mean, aren't we all losers in some sense if we're here? -- but I can certainly assure you that I don't believe there is one or care to implicate myself in any neurotic interwebs popularity contest.  I was seriously just saying that you didn't have standing to tell me I was tightly wound because you were pretty damned tightly wound yourself.  And the rest of the course of this thread just confirms my assessment.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 09, 2009, 12:17:02 PM
I guess my point is that you lose a lot of credibility when you offer up conflicting, bullsh@t explanations for what you really meant to say (so far, I count at least 3 different, mutually exclusive explanations).  You could've just said:  "My bad.  I said that, but I shouldn't have.  That was lame.  I was just going off at the time."  I would have.  Instead, you make up all this elaborate nonsense and spew insults.

What I mean is, you should at least take some personal responsibility for your own posting.

Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2009, 12:21:11 PM
I guess my point is that you lose a lot of credibility when you offer up conflicting, bullsh@t explanations for what you really meant to say (so far, I count at least 3 different, mutually exclusive explanations).  You could've just said:  "My bad.  I said that, but I shouldn't have.  That was lame."

What I mean is, you should at least take some personal responsibility for your own posting.

I did.  I said that my explanations were sloppily worded (if you'll pardon me for not taking this discussion incredibly seriously) and that I had blinders on about whether my usage was specialized.  What I do not understand is your theory that I am somehow lying about something that seems pretty plain to everyone else.  But seriously, if it makes you happier to think that someone is insulting your social status on the LAW SCHOOL DISCUSSION board than to believe that she just said something you misunderstood (perhaps because it wasn't phrased well), I don't know what to tell you.

ETA: It would make sense for you to say that my remark was unclear or I am a bad writer, but we can't have a legitimate argument about what I meant.  One of us is in a position to know with 100% certainty; the other can either take her word or go on feeling embattled without cause.  You have obviously made your choice, which is different from the one I would make.  So be it.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 09, 2009, 12:23:40 PM
"that seems pretty plain to everyone else"

I agree that what you meant is pretty obvious.  That's why I find your attempts to obfuscate so amusing.

Anyway, have a good summer.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 09, 2009, 12:54:48 PM
LOL, what did I tell you.  It's also pretty clear that P has the verbal acuity of granite.  It's amazing that they would let people like that into law schools anywhere, even TTT's.  No wonder this country is full of lawyers working at Starbucks.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2009, 01:01:52 PM
LOL, what did I tell you.  It's also pretty clear that P has the verbal acuity of granite.  It's amazing that they would let people like that into law schools anywhere, even TTT's.  No wonder this country is full of lawyers working at Starbucks.

Yes, that's why the legal job market is in shambles.  It's because I wrote something stupid that you misunderstood on the LAW SCHOOL DISCUSSION board.  In any case, I do give you credit for making the argument I suggested, that I am a poor writer, instead of the argument you can't win, that I actually meant X or Y and not Z.  Kudos.

Also, the phrase "verbal acuity" made my eye twitch. 
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 09, 2009, 01:11:19 PM
"Also, the phrase "verbal acuity" made my eye twitch."

LOL.  Yeah, I'm sure.  In fact, I'm confident that most polysyllabic words make your head hurt, your eyes water and your pants wet.

Double macchiato, sweetheart.  And I'll take that tiny tin of mints for $16.50 while you're at it.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2009, 01:20:26 PM
"Also, the phrase "verbal acuity" made my eye twitch."

LOL.  Yeah, I'm sure.  In fact, I'm confident that most polysyllabic words make your head hurt, your eyes water and your pants wet.

Double macchiato, sweetheart.  And I'll take that tiny tin of mints for $16.50 while you're at it.

1. I think you meant "agility" or "skill," not "acuity," which is about perception.  You were trying to suggest that I don't transmit information well, but acuity has to do with receiving information, not transmitting it.

2. Acuity is strongly associated with vision.  As such, the phrase was a figurative mismatch of the human capacities for sight and speech.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: dashrashi on May 09, 2009, 01:21:42 PM
Lord.

P, I am sorry, although I don't believe in personal responsibility, that you are stuck dealing with these twits.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2009, 01:27:25 PM
Lord.

P, I am sorry, although I don't believe in personal responsibility, that you are stuck dealing with these twits.

:D  It's my own damned fault.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 09, 2009, 01:30:38 PM
No, actually I meant "verbal acuity."  I agree that you have problems both receiving and transmitting information, but that's beside the point.  You should probably know what you're talking about before you post.  That way, you'll look like less of an ass.

For examples of usage, see below.  Although it might be proper to start with a dictionary.

http://www.academon.com/lib/paper/104500.html

http://www.amazon.com/Verbal-Command-Expand-Vocabulary-Success/dp/1591507669

http://thelearnersguild.wordpress.com/2008/09/07/verbal-acuity-and-the-informal-learner/

etc.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 09, 2009, 01:32:16 PM
Lord.

P, I am sorry, although I don't believe in personal responsibility, that you are stuck dealing with these twits.

background noise.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 09, 2009, 01:34:15 PM
You people are children. 

And nice "twit" comment ice cream.  I love these people who pop up with the random insults without saying anything substantive.  I suppose it's a free country. 
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 09, 2009, 01:40:16 PM
You'll be elated to hear, no doubt, that I've really had enough of this crowd.  Thank you all, it's been real, but I'd rather not butt heads in the future.  I'm running out of time before next final anyway.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2009, 01:42:09 PM
No, actually I meant "verbal acuity."  I agree that you have problems both receiving and transmitting information, but that's beside the point.  You should probably know what you're talking about before you post.  That way, you'll look like less of an ass.

For examples of usage, see below.  Although it might be proper to start with a dictionary.

http://www.academon.com/lib/paper/104500.html

http://www.amazon.com/Verbal-Command-Expand-Vocabulary-Success/dp/1591507669

http://thelearnersguild.wordpress.com/2008/09/07/verbal-acuity-and-the-informal-learner/

etc.

Sure.

http://www.bartleby.com/61/28/A0072800.html

See also: http://www.bartleby.com/68/17/117.html

But go ahead and take your usage tips from termpapers4uRus.com or wherever.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 09, 2009, 01:48:16 PM
Now, now.  Just because you lack the capacity to produce an academic paper is no reason to knock them.  Anyway, my point was that "verbal acuity" is a well used term despite your contention that "acuity" should only be used in reference to vision.

I'm impressed by your googling, but here again you have an interpretation problem.  The definition you provide does not say that "acuity" is limited to vision.  It merely gives acuity of vision as an example usage.

"Also, the phrase "verbal acuity" made my eye twitch."

LOL.  Yeah, I'm sure.  In fact, I'm confident that most polysyllabic words make your head hurt, your eyes water and your pants wet.

Double macchiato, sweetheart.  And I'll take that tiny tin of mints for $16.50 while you're at it.

1. I think you meant "agility" or "skill," not "acuity," which is about perception.  You were trying to suggest that I don't transmit information well, but acuity has to do with receiving information, not transmitting it.

2. Acuity is strongly associated with vision.  As such, the phrase was a figurative mismatch of the human capacities for sight and speech.

Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2009, 01:55:47 PM
Now, now.  Just because you lack the capacity to produce an academic paper is no reason to knock them.  Anyway, my point was that "verbal acuity" is a well used term. 

I'm impressed by your googling, but here again you have an interpretation problem.  The definition you provide does not say that "acuity" is limited to vision.  It merely gives acuity of vision as an example usage.

I didn't say it was limited to vision.  I said that it is strongly associated with vision, as is demonstrated by the fact that the definition in one of the most authoritative dictionaries of American English is "acuteness of vision or perception."  But obviously the real problem is that "acuity" refers to receiving information, and you were trying to insult my ability to transmit it. 

I can see that some really authoritative sources also misuse the term.  I could similarly find thousands of people on the internet who confuse "imply" and "infer."  It wouldn't make that any less of an error.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 09, 2009, 02:02:56 PM
LOL.  I can google too and find many more "authoritive" sources you'll need to correct in your crusade against the use of the phrase "verbal acuity."  I just googled "verbal acuity" and Harvard in honor of dashrashi.

Wow are those academic types stupid, eh Miss P?

"Anderson must enthrall the audience (for the most part) with her own insight and verbal acuity."

Harvard Crimson, http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=224458

"And speaking of hip hop, look for my new CD, "Al B.G. in the Ho-Zone" featuring Snoop Dogg where I fight global warming not with my crisp documentary filmmaking, but with my amazing verbal acuity (that's white speak for "dope rhymes")."

Harvard Satyrical Press, http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~hsp/?id=112_AlGore
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2009, 02:10:20 PM
LOL.  I can google too and find many more "authoritive" sources you'll need to correct in your crusade against the use of the phrase "verbal acuity."  I just googled "verbal acuity" and Harvard in honor of dashrashi.

"Anderson must enthrall the audience (for the most part) with her own insight and verbal acuity."

Harvard Crimson, http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=224458

"And speaking of hip hop, look for my new CD, "Al B.G. in the Ho-Zone" featuring Snoop Dogg where I fight global warming not with my crisp documentary filmmaking, but with my amazing verbal acuity (that's white speak for "dope rhymes")."

Harvard Satyrical Press, http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~hsp/?id=112_AlGore

Oh, yes, Harvard students also misuse the word*!  So you must be using it right! 

Seriously, give it up.  You misused a word.  It happens.



*Though at least with respect to the first article, I would give the writer the benefit of the doubt that she actually meant something like "acuity," that is, that Laurie Anderson has a keen understanding of the power of language.  This would seem to complement "insight," which is the word she uses to describe Laurie Anderson immediately before "verbal acuity."
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 09, 2009, 02:13:28 PM
Okay, fine.  If it means that much to you, all the rest of us are apparently wrong.  Acuity refers only to vision (despite numerous sources to the contrary) and I used it incorrectly to describe your inability to deal with the printed word.  Which word should I use to describe that, by the way?  You go ahead and tell me and I'll use a word we can all agree on.

Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2009, 02:20:56 PM
Okay, fine.  If it means that much to you, all the rest of us are apparently wrong.  Acuity refers only to vision and I used it incorrectly to describe your inability to deal with the printed word.  Which word should I use to describe that, by the way?  You go ahead and tell me and I'll use a word we can all agree on.

How is it possible that you still don't understand how you misused it?  You used a word for perception to talk about how I transmit things, not how I perceive -- that's receive, the opposite of transmit -- them. The fact that acuity happens to have strong figurative associations with vision made the misuse especially grating.  I have already suggested that you meant "agility" or "skill," or perhaps simply "ability."
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 09, 2009, 02:24:07 PM
Okay, fine.  If it means that much to you, all the rest of us are apparently wrong.  Acuity refers only to vision and I used it incorrectly to describe your inability to deal with the printed word.  Which word should I use to describe that, by the way?  You go ahead and tell me and I'll use a word we can all agree on.

How is it possible that you still don't understand how you misused it?  You used a word for perception to talk about how I transmit things, not how I perceive -- that's receive, the opposite of transmit -- them. The fact that acuity happens to have strong figurative associations with vision made the misuse especially grating.  I have already suggested that you meant "agility" or "skill," or perhaps simply "ability."

Do you even remember how I used the phrase "verbal acuity?"
 
I said that you have the "verbal acuity of granite."  Are you trying to say that granite has problems transmitting verbal information, but has no problems perceiving it?  Really?

Now doesn't this example alone prove that you have trouble perceiving and interpreting verbal information?

Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 09, 2009, 02:26:25 PM
LOL, what did I tell you.  It's also pretty clear that P has the verbal acuity of granite.  It's amazing that they would let people like that into law schools anywhere, even TTT's.  No wonder this country is full of lawyers working at Starbucks.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2009, 02:32:03 PM
Do you even remember how I used the phrase "verbal acuity?"
 
I said that you have the "verbal acuity of granite."  Are you trying to say that granite has problems transmitting verbal information, but has no problems perceiving it?  Really?

Oh, you were insulting my ability to read things not my ability to write things?  Never mind.  But then also disregard the kudos I gave you for making a sensible argument in the first place.

I give up. I don't normally say things like this, but you are truly as dumb as a box of rocks.  

And when I say that you are dumb as a box of rocks, by the way, I mean that you have as little intelligence as a box of rocks, and not that you are as deaf-mute as a box of rocks -- even though, incidentally, a box of rocks is also undoubtedly deaf-mute.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 09, 2009, 02:39:30 PM
That's it.  Try very hard, crash and burn and then trot out the insults.  That's the way you roll.

Good luck lady P.  I sure hope, but doubt, you're well above median... or that you at least have something else going for you.  This job market is going to be hard on people like you.  My condolences, if it were up to me they never would have let you into a law school in the first place.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: Miss P on May 09, 2009, 02:42:15 PM
That's it.  Try very hard, crash and burn and then trot out the insults.  That's the way you roll.

Good luck lady.  I sure hope, but doubt, you're well above median... or that you at least have something else going for you.  This job market is going to be hard on people like you.  My condolences, if it were up to me they never would have let you into a law school in the first place.

:D  That's rich.  You've been hammering at my idiocy and psychopathy for days now and insults are the way I roll?  Good luck in life.  (And yes, well above the median, thanks.)
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: PILOFOLO_REGIL on May 09, 2009, 02:44:41 PM
Good for you, lady P.  Bad for your law school, but good for you.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: This is wrong. on May 10, 2009, 04:05:05 AM
I guess my point is that you lose a lot of credibility when you offer up conflicting, bullsh@t explanations for what you really meant to say (so far, I count at least 3 different, mutually exclusive explanations).  You could've just said:  "My bad.  I said that, but I shouldn't have.  That was lame.  I was just going off at the time."  I would have.  Instead, you make up all this elaborate nonsense and spew insults.

What I mean is, you should at least take some personal responsibility for your own posting.




Pot?  Meet Kettle!
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: This is wrong. on May 10, 2009, 04:09:25 AM
You people are children. 

And nice "twit" comment ice cream.  I love these people who pop up with the random insults without saying anything substantive.  I suppose it's a free country. 

 :D :D :D

This from the twit who has still not responded to my post addressing the only substantive issues in this thread, but continues to bicker (ad infinitum) semantics with those who clearly have the right (and, I might add, the standing) to contextualize their own messages.
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: This is wrong. on May 10, 2009, 04:11:24 AM
Okay, fine.  If it means that much to you, all the rest of us are apparently wrong.  Acuity refers only to vision and I used it incorrectly to describe your inability to deal with the printed word.  Which word should I use to describe that, by the way?  You go ahead and tell me and I'll use a word we can all agree on.

How is it possible that you still don't understand how you misused it?  You used a word for perception to talk about how I transmit things, not how I perceive -- that's receive, the opposite of transmit -- them. The fact that acuity happens to have strong figurative associations with vision made the misuse especially grating.  I have already suggested that you meant "agility" or "skill," or perhaps simply "ability."

SRSLY

For all intensive porpoises, this dude is conflating "effect" with "affect"!
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 10, 2009, 08:29:05 AM
I guess my point is that you lose a lot of credibility when you offer up conflicting, bullsh@t explanations for what you really meant to say (so far, I count at least 3 different, mutually exclusive explanations).  You could've just said:  "My bad.  I said that, but I shouldn't have.  That was lame.  I was just going off at the time."  I would have.  Instead, you make up all this elaborate nonsense and spew insults.

What I mean is, you should at least take some personal responsibility for your own posting.




Pot?  Meet Kettle!

lol.  Mr. Substantive Comment re-emerges from the ether. Dude, you're a total loss.  You have absolutely nothing interesting to say and you manage to say it with the charm, wit and sophistication of a four year old.  I take that back.  A four year old might not be as fluent in emoticons as you seem to be. So, really, by that measure, I guess you're somewhat better than a four year old.

Try to come up with something interesting.  I don't agree with Miss P, but at least she can string a sentence or two together. 
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: This is wrong. on May 10, 2009, 11:57:16 PM
I guess my point is that you lose a lot of credibility when you offer up conflicting, bullsh@t explanations for what you really meant to say (so far, I count at least 3 different, mutually exclusive explanations).  You could've just said:  "My bad.  I said that, but I shouldn't have.  That was lame.  I was just going off at the time."  I would have.  Instead, you make up all this elaborate nonsense and spew insults.

What I mean is, you should at least take some personal responsibility for your own posting.




Pot?  Meet Kettle!

lol.  Mr. Substantive Comment re-emerges from the ether. Dude, you're a total loss.  You have absolutely nothing interesting to say and you manage to say it with the charm, wit and sophistication of a four year old.  I take that back.  A four year old might not be as fluent in emoticons as you seem to be. So, really, by that measure, I guess you're somewhat better than a four year old.

Try to come up with something interesting.  I don't agree with Miss P, but at least she can string a sentence or two together. 


This remains senseless barking until you actually, you know, respond to my analysis.

I even quoted it for you, just in case you missed it earlier.  But I'm not going to quote it again.  Don't ask me why, but I'm pretty sure you just want to pretend it's not there.

OH MAN YOU'RE TOTALLY GETTING UNDER MY SKIN!
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: ISUCKATTHIS on May 11, 2009, 07:58:55 PM
whatever dude.  you haven't said anything of substance and you've already wasted enough of my time. 
Title: Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
Post by: This is wrong. on May 12, 2009, 10:57:12 AM
whatever dude.  you haven't said anything of substance and you've already wasted enough of my time. 

no, i don't think he has.

this is wrong.: keep going.

Uh oh!  Troublemaker!