Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Acceptances, Denials, and Waitlists => Topic started by: LIMBO on April 03, 2009, 08:51:53 PM

Title: American vs Howard
Post by: LIMBO on April 03, 2009, 08:51:53 PM
I am deciding between American and Howard. I like both schools and the DC area. I will have to pay the full price tag for Howard 23K+. American's tuition is 40K+, but I got 15K for the 1st yearfrom them and will most likely get it for the other 2yrs. So tuition is almost equal and so will cost of living since they are in the same city.

Just wondering about other ppl's opinion on which sch will give me more opportunities. Where should I go? Be sure to pick one or the other. Thank you.

Title: Re: American vs Howard
Post by: k0em9u on April 03, 2009, 10:17:46 PM
Its always an issue of how important the money is to you. But Howard versus American is really a pretty lopsided comparison, American should win this hands down unless there are some very substantial factors pulling the other way.

By what certainty are you assuming you will get it for the other 2 years? I'm guessing they have a class rank requirement, and do remember that 100% of the students in a 1L class are confident they will be in the top 10%. 90% of them are wrong.
Title: Re: American vs Howard
Post by: Kirk Lazarus on April 04, 2009, 08:34:42 AM
The way I see it, your intelligence is what it is.

Whatever your intelligence level is, you will place better at Howard than you will at American.

It seems pretty clear that the people in the middle and bottom of the class at American and Howard get the same dismal job opportunities.

It seems equally clear that the top of Howard gets better opportunities than the top of American (generally speaking).

Your intelligence being what it is, you have a better chance of placing at the top of Howard than American.

Thus, you should go to Howard money being no factor.
Title: Re: American vs Howard
Post by: LawDog3 on April 04, 2009, 01:12:13 PM
The way I see it, your intelligence is what it is.

Whatever your intelligence level is, you will place better at Howard than you will at American.

It seems pretty clear that the people in the middle and bottom of the class at American and Howard get the same dismal job opportunities.

It seems equally clear that the top of Howard gets better opportunities than the top of American (generally speaking).

Your intelligence being what it is, you have a better chance of placing at the top of Howard than American.

Thus, you should go to Howard money being no factor.

I can understand that line of thinking, but LSAT's and GPA's of incoming law students are of little indicator, especially at Howard. The "top" of Howard tends to be a group of students who are very underrated and likely could/should have gone to top-20 schools.

They are waitlisted at top-20 schools but don't get in, so they choose Howard Law. I know that sounds wierd, but it's true. Many Black law applicants think that way...either top-20 or Howard. So what you have at the top of Howard is a class of deceptively talented people. Plus, the profs are tough. It's not going to be easy to make the top of Howard.
Title: Re: American vs Howard
Post by: k0em9u on April 04, 2009, 01:33:54 PM
The previous post is a 120 answer.
Title: Re: American vs Howard
Post by: Kirk Lazarus on April 04, 2009, 01:58:24 PM
The way I see it, your intelligence is what it is.

Whatever your intelligence level is, you will place better at Howard than you will at American.

It seems pretty clear that the people in the middle and bottom of the class at American and Howard get the same dismal job opportunities.

It seems equally clear that the top of Howard gets better opportunities than the top of American (generally speaking).

Your intelligence being what it is, you have a better chance of placing at the top of Howard than American.

Thus, you should go to Howard money being no factor.

I can understand that line of thinking, but LSAT's and GPA's of incoming law students are of little indicator, especially at Howard. The "top" of Howard tends to be a group of students who are very underrated and likely could/should have gone to top-20 schools.

They are waitlisted at top-20 schools but don't get in, so they choose Howard Law. I know that sounds wierd, but it's true. Many Black law applicants think that way...either top-20 or Howard. So what you have at the top of Howard is a class of deceptively talented people. Plus, the profs are tough. It's not going to be easy to make the top of Howard.

lol. I love Howard as much as the next guy, but this is ridiculous.

Edit: I'll actually go ahead and say that you're correct here, on second thought. It isn't so much that I actually think this is true. After all, if you're waitlisted and didn't get in to a top 20 school, you can't reasonably say you "could/should have gone to a top 20 school." Nonetheless, I do remember that my girlfriend and I only applied to the t14 and Howard thinking that Howard was the only school outside of the t14 worth going to.
Title: Re: American vs Howard
Post by: LawDog3 on April 04, 2009, 05:01:42 PM
The way I see it, your intelligence is what it is.

Whatever your intelligence level is, you will place better at Howard than you will at American.

It seems pretty clear that the people in the middle and bottom of the class at American and Howard get the same dismal job opportunities.

It seems equally clear that the top of Howard gets better opportunities than the top of American (generally speaking).

Your intelligence being what it is, you have a better chance of placing at the top of Howard than American.

Thus, you should go to Howard money being no factor.

I can understand that line of thinking, but LSAT's and GPA's of incoming law students are of little indicator, especially at Howard. The "top" of Howard tends to be a group of students who are very underrated and likely could/should have gone to top-20 schools.

They are waitlisted at top-20 schools but don't get in, so they choose Howard Law. I know that sounds wierd, but it's true. Many Black law applicants think that way...either top-20 or Howard. So what you have at the top of Howard is a class of deceptively talented people. Plus, the profs are tough. It's not going to be easy to make the top of Howard.

lol. I love Howard as much as the next guy, but this is ridiculous.

Edit: I'll actually go ahead and say that you're correct here, on second thought. It isn't so much that I actually think this is true. After all, if you're waitlisted and didn't get in to a top 20 school, you can't reasonably say you "could/should have gone to a top 20 school." Nonetheless, I do remember that my girlfriend and I only applied to the t14 and Howard thinking that Howard was the only school outside of the t14 worth going to.

You see? That's what I am saying, right there. Many Black applicants feel that way. There may be the occasional Tulane, UNC, Chicago-Kent, Cardozo, Brooklyn or Temple sprinkled in, b/c of their placement records for ethnic minority candidates. But, for the most part, we tend to go Top-20/25 + Howard or bust in our applications, which is why your Villanovas and Seton Halls get few Black applications.

But anyone admitted to, or at least waitlisted at, multiple top schools should be perceived to be top school material.
Title: Re: American vs Howard
Post by: LawDog3 on April 04, 2009, 05:33:06 PM
The previous post is a 120 answer.

On a scale of 0-120.
Title: Re: American vs Howard
Post by: LawDog3 on April 04, 2009, 05:37:11 PM
Its always an issue of how important the money is to you. But Howard versus American is really a pretty lopsided comparison, American should win this hands down unless there are some very substantial factors pulling the other way.

By what certainty are you assuming you will get it for the other 2 years? I'm guessing they have a class rank requirement, and do remember that 100% of the students in a 1L class are confident they will be in the top 10%. 90% of them are wrong.

Fail! All you need at Howard to keep your scholy is a 3.0 GPA, which is tough, but doable.

And according to WHAT do u assume that American should be the hands down favorite? It sound to me as if SOMEBODY has assumed that the same Howard Law that keeps beating the crap out of Harvard and Yale every year in Moot Court is inferior to predominantly White law schools.

Howard is the most underrated law school in the country and should be at least top-50. Some others are very close:

Cardozo is a top-25 school
Hastings is a top 25 school
Brooklyn is a top-30 school
Chicago-Kent is top-30 school
Tulane is a top-30 school
Miami is a top-tier school
Wayne State is a top-tier school
Suffolk is a top-tier school

American is considered to be one of the most overrated schools in the country.


Title: Re: American vs Howard
Post by: bl825 on April 04, 2009, 08:47:57 PM
Its always an issue of how important the money is to you. But Howard versus American is really a pretty lopsided comparison, American should win this hands down unless there are some very substantial factors pulling the other way.

By what certainty are you assuming you will get it for the other 2 years? I'm guessing they have a class rank requirement, and do remember that 100% of the students in a 1L class are confident they will be in the top 10%. 90% of them are wrong.

Fail! All you need at Howard to keep your scholy is a 3.0 GPA, which is tough, but doable.

And according to WHAT do u assume that American should be the hands down favorite? It sound to me as if SOMEBODY has assumed that the same Howard Law that keeps beating the crap out of Harvard and Yale every year in Moot Court is inferior to predominantly White law schools.

Howard is the most underrated law school in the country and should be at least top-50. Some others are very close:

Cardozo is a top-25 school
Hastings is a top 25 school
Brooklyn is a top-30 school
Chicago-Kent is top-30 school
Tulane is a top-30 school
Miami is a top-tier school
Wayne State is a top-tier school
Suffolk is a top-tier school

American is considered to be one of the most overrated schools in the country.




According to WHAT do u suggest that these schools are so underrated, and that American is so overrated?

Having said that, I agree with LawDog that it's not a hands-down win in American's favor.  See?  At least I'm fair.  :)
Title: Re: American vs Howard
Post by: LawDog3 on April 06, 2009, 10:35:48 PM
Its always an issue of how important the money is to you. But Howard versus American is really a pretty lopsided comparison, American should win this hands down unless there are some very substantial factors pulling the other way.

By what certainty are you assuming you will get it for the other 2 years? I'm guessing they have a class rank requirement, and do remember that 100% of the students in a 1L class are confident they will be in the top 10%. 90% of them are wrong.

Fail! All you need at Howard to keep your scholy is a 3.0 GPA, which is tough, but doable.

And according to WHAT do u assume that American should be the hands down favorite? It sound to me as if SOMEBODY has assumed that the same Howard Law that keeps beating the crap out of Harvard and Yale every year in Moot Court is inferior to predominantly White law schools.

Howard is the most underrated law school in the country and should be at least top-50. Some others are very close:

Cardozo is a top-25 school
Hastings is a top 25 school
Brooklyn is a top-30 school
Chicago-Kent is top-30 school
Tulane is a top-30 school
Miami is a top-tier school
Wayne State is a top-tier school
Suffolk is a top-tier school

American is considered to be one of the most overrated schools in the country.




According to WHAT do u suggest that these schools are so underrated, and that American is so overrated?

Having said that, I agree with LawDog that it's not a hands-down win in American's favor.  See?  At least I'm fair.  :)

I must amplify this with a note: the schools are underrated with respect to the USNWR. And I must admit, there is some personal bias, but that's no more or less worthy than anyone else's.

That said, I get my information from the Vault Law Rankings, Princeton Review, Leiter, Lawdragon (and other rankings), my undergraduate profs and the profs at Georgetown, and the many articles I have read. The same schools keep popping up on every list of "underrated schools".

Come to think of it, this raises a paradox: their repeated mention on such lists means that, on some level, they aren't really so "underrated". But I digress.

I have visited many of these schools myself, starting in 1998. I have sat in the classrooms of every top east coast, midwest and California school.

After you visit about seventy-five law schools, you start to see patterns that tell you which ones are good. I have also met many attorneys from these schools, and I have noted their experiences and opinions. Certainly students who rely so heavily on something as arbitrary as USNWR wouldn't begrudge me reliance on the opinions of a few lawyers and judges (wink!).

I have done extensive research on the schools. In addition to my personal classroom experiences, I have also noted their universities' worlwide rankings, the rankings of their other graduate schools, their attrition rates, diversity, generosity, and alumni networks.

For instance, I can tell you that many Europeans put Tulane in a class with Harvard! Take a guess as to why. 

Title: Re: American vs Howard
Post by: k0em9u on April 08, 2009, 04:22:07 PM
Fail! All you need at Howard to keep your scholy is a 3.0 GPA, which is tough, but doable.

Pardon me, I thought we were talking about academic quality. If we are talking about ease of maintaining your scholarship, you might very well be true.

Quote
And according to WHAT do u assume that American should be the hands down favorite? It sound to me as if SOMEBODY has assumed that the same Howard Law that keeps beating the crap out of Harvard and Yale every year in Moot Court is inferior to predominantly White law schools.

Has nothing to do with color, some of the best people I've studied with have been black students. That's not at all what it is about. Howard is, however, not a top school, nor should it be. Is it better than it's rank? Yeah, probably.

As a second note, I am absolutely not interested in the moot court results, neither are most of the top schools, point proven by the fact that NYU is the only top school to ever win it, at least since 1977.

I am mainly interested in academic quality and job placement, as I assume most students are. If job placement is not on the top of your life in the current market, you are either 1) rich or 2) an idiot. A combination of both is also possible. Howard gets a shitload of firms at OCI, which can be a good thing. It gives you the opportunity to plead your case to a lot of firms you wouldn't be allowed to talk to at most other "comparable" schools. However, the chances of these firms hiring you (or, essentially, anyone else) are pretty slim. This is a very typical school where a ton of firms show up for "political correctness".

Quote
Howard is the most underrated law school in the country and should be at least top-50. Some others are very close:

Cardozo is a top-25 school
Hastings is a top 25 school
Brooklyn is a top-30 school
Chicago-Kent is top-30 school
Tulane is a top-30 school
Miami is a top-tier school
Wayne State is a top-tier school
Suffolk is a top-tier school

You gotta be f-ing kidding me. There's always that old joke of the "20 law schools in the top 14", but by this standard there would suddenly be 100 schools in the top 50. It's gonna get crowded.

Yes, Howard is probably the most under ranked school. It would deserve to break into the Top 100 list. It would not, should not and never will be anywhere near the "Top 50 at least".

Quote
American is considered to be one of the most overrated schools in the country.

I'm pretty sure most employers are more interested in USNews' opinion on that than yours. At the end of the day, it matters fairly little whether the ranks are wrong or retarded (both of which pretty much everyone agrees with). At the end of the day, they are still the holy grail.
Title: Re: American vs Howard
Post by: bl825 on April 09, 2009, 08:03:26 PM
Its always an issue of how important the money is to you. But Howard versus American is really a pretty lopsided comparison, American should win this hands down unless there are some very substantial factors pulling the other way.

By what certainty are you assuming you will get it for the other 2 years? I'm guessing they have a class rank requirement, and do remember that 100% of the students in a 1L class are confident they will be in the top 10%. 90% of them are wrong.

Fail! All you need at Howard to keep your scholy is a 3.0 GPA, which is tough, but doable.

And according to WHAT do u assume that American should be the hands down favorite? It sound to me as if SOMEBODY has assumed that the same Howard Law that keeps beating the crap out of Harvard and Yale every year in Moot Court is inferior to predominantly White law schools.

Howard is the most underrated law school in the country and should be at least top-50. Some others are very close:

Cardozo is a top-25 school
Hastings is a top 25 school
Brooklyn is a top-30 school
Chicago-Kent is top-30 school
Tulane is a top-30 school
Miami is a top-tier school
Wayne State is a top-tier school
Suffolk is a top-tier school

American is considered to be one of the most overrated schools in the country.




According to WHAT do u suggest that these schools are so underrated, and that American is so overrated?

Having said that, I agree with LawDog that it's not a hands-down win in American's favor.  See?  At least I'm fair.  :)

I must amplify this with a note: the schools are underrated with respect to the USNWR. And I must admit, there is some personal bias, but that's no more or less worthy than anyone else's.

That said, I get my information from the Vault Law Rankings, Princeton Review, Leiter, Lawdragon (and other rankings), my undergraduate profs and the profs at Georgetown, and the many articles I have read. The same schools keep popping up on every list of "underrated schools".

Come to think of it, this raises a paradox: their repeated mention on such lists means that, on some level, they aren't really so "underrated". But I digress.

I have visited many of these schools myself, starting in 1998. I have sat in the classrooms of every top east coast, midwest and California school.

After you visit about seventy-five law schools, you start to see patterns that tell you which ones are good. I have also met many attorneys from these schools, and I have noted their experiences and opinions. Certainly students who rely so heavily on something as arbitrary as USNWR wouldn't begrudge me reliance on the opinions of a few lawyers and judges (wink!).

I have done extensive research on the schools. In addition to my personal classroom experiences, I have also noted their universities' worlwide rankings, the rankings of their other graduate schools, their attrition rates, diversity, generosity, and alumni networks.

For instance, I can tell you that many Europeans put Tulane in a class with Harvard! Take a guess as to why. 



I'd guess that it's because those Europeans are figments of your imagination.

But you're entitled to your opinion of what schools belong at what rankings.  Personally, I find the whole "top-anything" label to be pretty silly.
Title: Re: American vs Howard
Post by: k0em9u on April 09, 2009, 08:07:07 PM
For instance, I can tell you that many Europeans put Tulane in a class with Harvard! Take a guess as to why. 

Being a first generation immigrant from Europe, I found this quite amusing. While I certainly consider it such a ridiculous statement it doesn't need to be disproved, I figured, what the hell. So I've asked around, and 24 people I talked to have answered my question. Of these, 9 are lawyers, the others are various kinds of professionals. 2 Doctors, 5 bankers, don't remember the others. All are British, German and French.

Out of 24 persons who replied to my question, 24 people answered "Never heard of Tulane".