Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Choosing the Right Law School => Topic started by: SellinEvo84Law on February 27, 2009, 04:50:24 PM

Title: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: SellinEvo84Law on February 27, 2009, 04:50:24 PM
I have been accepted to Thomas M. Cooley, and have been invited into the Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program. This program is designed to weed out diamonds from the rough by making the participants take two classes, of which at least a 2.5GPA and at most one C is need for admittance. The classes last one month, and cost $3500. I am having trouble deciding, as I am refering to "a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush." Now this saying doesnt help with rationale. Is the bird in hand raggedy or nice, with respect to the other two in the bush, even though I only have one becuase a waitlist from Barry is not likely to be decided upon by April 1. Any  thoughts, ideas, experiences on the AAMPLE program or either institutions?

From the Nova Southeastern Law AAMPLE website:

about 20%-50% of the students in any given year are successful. There is not a ďquotaĒ on the number of AAMPLE ģ students who will be admitted to the NSU Law Center. All those who achieve the cumulative G.P.A. of 2.50 or higheróof which both grades are a C or higher are offered admission into the NSU Law Center after successfully completing the additional Law Center requirements. The usual range, however, is approximately 20%-50% of enrolled AAMPLE ģ students.

The success rates for the following years of the Online AAMPLE ģ program are as follows:
Online        On campus
2005 - 11%    2005 - 0
2006 - 22%    2006 - 45%
2007 - 33%    2007 - 39%
2008 - 37%    2008 - 42%

 

 

Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: cannotpick on February 28, 2009, 08:38:13 AM
I genuinely want to help you, but I read your post twice and I still have no idea what it is saying. Law school might not be a good idea right now. These schools aren't known for producing successful graduates.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: SellinEvo84Law on February 28, 2009, 11:07:30 AM
What section is difficult for you to understand? I am simply asking for knowledge (from past experiences) pertaining to this type of decision. So you think I shouldn't attend law school for reasons to you not being able to understand my post? Or because of my choices?  I appreciate your comments.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: SellinEvo84Law on February 28, 2009, 11:17:27 AM
Go with AAMPLE.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36681

HTH.

I have read some posts proclaiming the classes are really 3L, and unless you have the mind to put fourth in-depth rationale before entering law school, the participant would be frustrated come grade release time.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: SASS on February 28, 2009, 11:38:55 AM
I strongly urge you to reconsider going to law school this year. These schools simply are not good law schools and it may be difficult for you to find employment. I don't know what you career goals are though.

What thing that concerns me is that you are considering a Michigan school and a Florida school and you really must ask yourself what your goals are after graduation. It is hard enough to find employment locally, but these schools certainly give their students access to the national legal market.

Good luck in whatever you decide.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: SellinEvo84Law on February 28, 2009, 12:32:10 PM
I strongly urge you to reconsider going to law school this year. These schools simply are not good law schools and it may be difficult for you to find employment. I don't know what you career goals are though.

What thing that concerns me is that you are considering a Michigan school and a Florida school and you really must ask yourself what your goals are after graduation. It is hard enough to find employment locally, but these schools certainly give their students access to the national legal market.

Good luck in whatever you decide.

The Michigan school is considered because I have been accepted, and with no other acceptances, and an hour glass running low, I must consider my options seriously. If I attend the Michigan school, I will transfer after 1L to a school in FL. I am on the waiting list for Barry, AAMPLE program for Nova, and "HOT Outta the INBOX" I just received an invitation to an AAMPLE program at Florida Coastal. With the same criteria as former.

So do I attempt the AAMPLE challenge, for a $3500 additional cost, or bust my butt during 1L and transfer to a more respected school. In addition, given the new info (Florida Coastal), which of the two AAMPLE program's should I choose?

Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: nealric on February 28, 2009, 12:50:15 PM
It's worth noting that the chances of getting through the AAMPLE program are roughly the same as those of actually graduating from Cooley and passing the bar (i.e. less than 50/50).

A much easier option would be to retake the LSAT and apply next year. Then get into those same schools with scholarship money.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: SellinEvo84Law on February 28, 2009, 01:20:55 PM
It's worth noting that the chances of getting through the AAMPLE program are roughly the same as those of actually graduating from Cooley and passing the bar (i.e. less than 50/50).

A much easier option would be to retake the LSAT and apply next year. Then get into those same schools with scholarship money.

Granted, but it will be my third time taking the LSAT. <12/08(145) 09/07(138)> Is the option of transferring that minuscule to consider? I succumbed to a low SAT score as well, so it would be safe to say I am not the best at standardized tests.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: SASS on February 28, 2009, 01:29:05 PM
Have you tried taking an LSAT prep class?  I stand by the advice that it is better to get into a school that you would be happy to graduate from.  You also cannot count on a transfer, even though I doubt it is very difficult to transfer from a T4 to a T4.

If you do manage to do really well, FSU could be an option for transfer which may work out well for you since it appears you would like to be in FL. Still, you can't count on a transfer to a particular school, especially from Cooley.

If you are really set on going to school this year and not trying to increase your numbers, I would try for the FL schools.

Good luck to you.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: Ninja1 on March 01, 2009, 02:35:39 AM
AAMPLE if not retake the LSAT.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: cannotpick on March 01, 2009, 07:26:57 AM
What section is difficult for you to understand? I am simply asking for knowledge (from past experiences) pertaining to this type of decision. So you think I shouldn't attend law school for reasons to you not being able to understand my post? Or because of my choices?  I appreciate your comments.
I think it is important to be honest and frank because too many people hastily make the choice to go to law school. So, please don't take my comments as mean. Here's why I don't think you should go to law school: (1) these are not good schools (so bad that you aren't even guaranteed a legal job after graduating; (2) you are paying full tuition or close to it; (3) your writing ability is sub-par (your post with filled with incorrectly used cliches); and (4) there's no reason to believe you will do well once you are there because your GPA and LSAT are both low.

I just don't think this is a wise investment. I'm sure you have plenty of other talents and suggest that you pursue those rather than entering an already bloated legal market.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: azlaw09 on March 01, 2009, 08:49:50 AM
^^^Good Avice. Cooley has a brutal curve and forces out  1/3 or so of the first year class. Chances are high that you might blow a year of tuition and get the boot at the end of 1l. Further, a Cooley JD will get you nothing but the ability to sit for the bar and start a solo. If starting a solo is your goal, then go for it. 

These "AMMPLE" programs sound like scams to make money for the schools. I would probably take it over Cooley though. This costs 3k ( I think  that's what you said) to have roughly a 1/2 chance of making it. A year of Cooley tuition to have a 2/3 or so chance of surviving is probably much costlier.

Your best bet is really to study your ass off for the LSAT and retake. Breaking 150 will probably give you some much better options.

Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: randyers09 on March 01, 2009, 09:15:37 AM
OP,


Don't listen to all of these haters. If you want to go to law school, do it! I live about an hour from Lansing and Cooley. If you intend to stay in Michigan after graduating from Cooley it will not be as impossible as the rest of the posters here make it sound to get a job. I interned at the Prosecutor's office in my county. EVERY single attorney in that office was a Cooley graduate. The Chief Assistant Prosecutor, who is only 9 years out of Cooley, just got hired in the United States District Attorney's office. If you plan on doing this kind of work you will be fine. Cooley graduates overwhelm public service jobs. Many private attorneys are also Cooley graduates. I am not sure what your prosepects would be upon leaving Michigan....

As for the AAMPLE program, I do not know *&^% about that, so I am not going to comment on something that I don't know.

Weigh your options carefully, I like Lansing and often go there to visit. I have visited Cooley's campus, Applied, got accepted, but decided not to go there because I want to leave Michigan. If you have any questions feel free to send me a message and I will help you out. Whatever you decide I wish you the best of luck.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: SASS on March 01, 2009, 09:41:36 AM
Please, please have no false expectations wherever you decide to go. The reality is you will have limited opportunities coming out of Cooley. You may have some public service positions to you (note, not all some are very competitive). You have to consider, 1) you are stuck in Michigan for a long time and 2) you have some serious restrictions on jobs. That is simply the truth.

If you want to be in Florida, at least try to go to a FL school. I would still try to figure out how to avoid any T4. I speak from experience. I attended at T4 and was lucky enough to transfer to a T20 so I know from experience the quality of educations and the job prospects cannot be compared. It's like apples and oranges.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: latinlord on March 01, 2009, 09:55:28 AM
Hey!! I feel your pain trust me! My numbers were bad 3 years ago (check out my old school lsn profile)
  I got into both program.. U can do both, sign up for cooley, and do the ammple program, if you don't get into ammple, you start cooley...
   Other schools you apply to are on my list from my lsn profile, you should apply to all the ones I got into. Do not give up! Cooley can open the doors to a law degree the rest of up to you once you enter those doors.
   I interviewed with an attorney who went to cooley, he now makes close to a million a year and has a very sucessful personal injury firm.
   Also cooley has like 40 people transfer out... You can be one of those 40 to tranfer to alocation that is better for you. I moved to Indiana for two years! I am not a midwesterner! This year I got published by a law review, and  I am now visiting Villanova for my last year and starting this May (1 week after I graduate from my J.D program) i'm getting my LL.M in trial advocacy at Temple Law... You can do it! I did it! You just have to fight! I wish you the best.. Don't let the haters on here get you down!
   GO FOR IT!!! hit me up if you got questions! good luck!
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: nealric on March 01, 2009, 10:50:05 AM
Quote

Don't listen to all of these haters. If you want to go to law school, do it! I live about an hour from Lansing and Cooley. If you intend to stay in Michigan after graduating from Cooley it will not be as impossible as the rest of the posters here make it sound to get a job. I interned at the Prosecutor's office in my county. EVERY single attorney in that office was a Cooley graduate. The Chief Assistant Prosecutor, who is only 9 years out of Cooley, just got hired in the United States District Attorney's office. If you plan on doing this kind of work you will be fine. Cooley graduates overwhelm public service jobs. Many private attorneys are also Cooley graduates. I am not sure what your prosepects would be upon leaving Michigan....

There is a difference between being a hater and encouraging a sober evaluations of the OP's options. I think most of the posts here have been the latter.

Cooley is a gigantic law school. Sheer numbers dictate there will be a large number of Cooley grads practicing in the region. However, that does NOT change the fact that a majority of those who matriculate at Cooley never become practicing attorneys. As long as the OP is aware of the risk, and chooses to take it, that's not a problem. Cooley gave him/her a chance. But the success of certain specific graduates is a terrible way to evaluate the school.

I'm sure there are people who graduated from Harvard Law who are homeless alcoholics. Does that mean one should avoid Harvard because people who graduate from there become homeless alcoholics? Likewise, the fact that a Cooley grad became an AUSA does not mean one should go to Cooley and expect similar success.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: Matthies on March 01, 2009, 12:03:41 PM
What section is difficult for you to understand? I am simply asking for knowledge (from past experiences) pertaining to this type of decision. So you think I shouldn't attend law school for reasons to you not being able to understand my post? Or because of my choices?  I appreciate your comments.
I think it is important to be honest and frank because too many people hastily make the choice to go to law school. So, please don't take my comments as mean. Here's why I don't think you should go to law school: (1) these are not good schools (so bad that you aren't even guaranteed a legal job after graduating; (2) you are paying full tuition or close to it; (3) your writing ability is sub-par (your post with filled with incorrectly used cliches); and (4) there's no reason to believe you will do well once you are there because your GPA and LSAT are both low.

I just don't think this is a wise investment. I'm sure you have plenty of other talents and suggest that you pursue those rather than entering an already bloated legal market.

Sigh. I disagree with both idea and comments in this thread. There are two types of law students that do well, those that work very hard to do so, and those that work very hard to get into schools that make it easier for them to do well. The latter far outnumber the former, but there are former success stories. Only the OP knows what type of person he/she is, a fighter or a roll over and play dead (i.e. see students side of board: ďIím at top 20 had five bids OCI and did not get a job shoot self?Ē). Iím not saying the odds will not be against the OP, they certainly are. But there have been against many of us, yet two of us, myself and latinlord over came both to be successful. That has nothing to do with the school, it has to do with whatís inside the OP. And only the OP knows if they are enough of a fighter to beat the odds, most people arenít, but a few are. And for those few I say go where you can and make the best of it.

I fit all the things you say make a bad LS candidate. (1) I donít go to a good school, (2) I paid full tuition (and worked to offset that while going to LS), (3) I am a horrible writer, I have sever dyslexia, did not learn to read or write my own name till I was 10 years old, yet Iíve been published in law reviews several times, as well as local bar publications (4) I had horrible numbers, 150/2.9. So bad that I had to convince a school to let me try law classes before the JD, so I started an LLM/MLS and took advanced law classes against 2 and 3Ls under the same testing conditions without having the first year of law school, and I smoked them, getting a 3.65 GPA in 24 credits and taking highest grade in the class twice. That got me into the JD program, where Iím now ranked 13th in my class and have several job offerings for when I graduate in May with the JD and the LLM/MLS.
 
I would have been successful if I went to Cooley, or if I went to Yale, because, just like LatianLord, I was never going to roll over and play dead. Granted, people like me and LL are few and far between, but they are out there, and I will always encourage them to go for it, IF THEY ARE THAT TYPE, because if they listen to the common wisdom, mostly from the roll over type, they will never succeed. So the question is, OP are you willing to work that hard, to never give up, to pick yourself up off the ground, to have people say you canít make it but prove them wrong? If you can answer yes, honestly, to all those questions, then go for it. If you canít, then donít. Thr roll over type will get killed at schools like those. Either give up on law school or keep re-taking the LAST until you can get into a law school that will do more for you than you can do for yourself.

Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: randyers09 on March 01, 2009, 12:12:03 PM
What section is difficult for you to understand? I am simply asking for knowledge (from past experiences) pertaining to this type of decision. So you think I shouldn't attend law school for reasons to you not being able to understand my post? Or because of my choices?  I appreciate your comments.
I think it is important to be honest and frank because too many people hastily make the choice to go to law school. So, please don't take my comments as mean. Here's why I don't think you should go to law school: (1) these are not good schools (so bad that you aren't even guaranteed a legal job after graduating; (2) you are paying full tuition or close to it; (3) your writing ability is sub-par (your post with filled with incorrectly used cliches); and (4) there's no reason to believe you will do well once you are there because your GPA and LSAT are both low.

I just don't think this is a wise investment. I'm sure you have plenty of other talents and suggest that you pursue those rather than entering an already bloated legal market.

Sigh. I disagree with both idea and comments in this thread. There are two types of law students that do well, those that work very hard to do so, and those that work very hard to get into schools that make it easier for them to do well. The latter far outnumber the former, but there are former success stories. Only the OP knows what type of person he/she is, a fighter or a roll over and play dead (i.e. see students side of board: ďIím at top 20 had five bids OCI and did not get a job shoot self?Ē). Iím not saying the odds will not be against the OP, they certainly are. But there have been against many of us, yet two of us, myself and latinlord over came both to be successful. That has nothing to do with the school, it has to do with whatís inside the OP. And only the OP knows if they are enough of a fighter to beat the odds, most people arenít, but a few are. And for those few I say go where you can and make the best of it.

I fit all the things you say make a bad LS candidate. (1) I donít go to a good school, (2) I paid full tuition (and worked to offset that while going to LS), (3) I am a horrible writer, I have sever dyslexia, did not learn to read or write my own name till I was 10 years old, yet Iíve been published in law reviews several times, as well as local bar publications (4) I had horrible numbers, 150/2.9. So bad that I had to convince a school to let me try law classes before the JD, so I started an LLM/MLS and took advanced law classes against 2 and 3Ls under the same testing conditions without having the first year of law school, and I smoked them, getting a 3.65 GPA in 24 credits and taking highest grade in the class twice. That got me into the JD program, where Iím now ranked 13th in my class and have several job offerings for when I graduate in May with the JD and the LLM/MLS.
 
I would have been successful if I went to Cooley, or if I went to Yale, because, just like LatianLord, I was never going to roll over and play dead. Granted, people like me and LL are few and far between, but they are out there, and I will always encourage them to go for it, IF THEY ARE THAT TYPE, because if they listen to the common wisdom, mostly from the roll over type, they will never succeed. So the question is, OP are you willing to work that hard, to never give up, to pick yourself up off the ground, to have people say you canít make it but prove them wrong? If you can answer yes, honestly, to all those questions, then go for it. If you canít, then donít. Thr roll over type will get killed at schools like those. Either give up on law school or keep re-taking the LAST until you can get into a law school that will do more for you than you can do for yourself.





great advice.... just curious what school do you go to? I have the same exact numbers.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: Matthies on March 01, 2009, 12:17:17 PM
Denver, part-time.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: randyers09 on March 01, 2009, 12:29:33 PM
UGH, this makes me wish i had applied to denver... I had it on my list to apply to and i dropped it off because I didnt think I had a shot in hell. O wellll
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: Matthies on March 01, 2009, 12:33:04 PM
UGH, this makes me wish i had applied to denver... I had it on my list to apply to and i dropped it off because I didnt think I had a shot in hell. O wellll

They truned me down the first year I applied, the second year I had two semsters of law grades, so my "numbers don't match my ability" argument was easy to belive. I ended up getting into a buch of schools my second try, even a T1. But I wanted to be at Denver, this is where I want to work and umm, ski :)
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: randyers09 on March 01, 2009, 12:42:46 PM
lol nice, well good luck to you!
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: Contract2008 on March 01, 2009, 05:19:41 PM
Granted, but it will be my third time taking the LSAT. <12/08(145) 09/07(138)> Is the option of transferring that minuscule to consider? I succumbed to a low SAT score as well, so it would be safe to say I am not the best at standardized tests.

Let's talk about reality here.  If you are a bad standardized test taker and you barely got into a university, that's fine.  As long as you graduate.  That's not the case with law.  At the end of three years and $$$$ in debt, you have another standardized test, the bar exam. Keep in mind that a big chunch of the top students from Nova and Cooley fell this exam.  Keep in mind that a big percentage of entering class at these schools do not end up graduating and the ones that do, a big chunk of them do not pass the bar exam. 

There are only 4 law schools in Florida that are worth considering and we all know those 4.  You should seriously consider taking the LSAT again and applying to cheaper Tier 3 public schools else where, where you can get in-state tution after the first year.  Nova, Florida Coasta, and Cooley definitely are not worth their price tags.  Can you imagine spending 3 years of your life along with 3 years accumulated debts (tuition, books, cost of living) and not passing the bar or passing the bar and not able to find a job due to competition from graduates of much better schools. 
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: latinlord on March 01, 2009, 06:57:32 PM
Granted, but it will be my third time taking the LSAT. <12/08(145) 09/07(138)> Is the option of transferring that minuscule to consider? I succumbed to a low SAT score as well, so it would be safe to say I am not the best at standardized tests.

Let's talk about reality here.  If you are a bad standardized test taker and you barely got into a university, that's fine.  As long as you graduate.  That's not the case with law.  At the end of three years and $$$$ in debt, you have another standardized test, the bar exam. Keep in mind that a big chunch of the top students from Nova and Cooley fell this exam.  Keep in mind that a big percentage of entering class at these schools do not end up graduating and the ones that do, a big chunk of them do not pass the bar exam. 

There are only 4 law schools in Florida that are worth considering and we all know those 4.  You should seriously consider taking the LSAT again and applying to cheaper Tier 3 public schools else where, where you can get in-state tution after the first year.  Nova, Florida Coasta, and Cooley definitely are not worth their price tags.  Can you imagine spending 3 years of your life along with 3 years accumulated debts (tuition, books, cost of living) and not passing the bar or passing the bar and not able to find a job due to competition from graduates of much better schools. 


First off I was wrong in saying that Cooley has 40 transfer out... way wrong... just checked last year they 185 people transfer out!! 185!!

Next Mathesis is completely right!! Listen to him!

Also FYI... if your so worried about the bar exam... apply to a wisconson school and move there... students don't have to take their bar if they go to a school in the state, then after a couple of years you can waive into other states... Just FYI!! haha

Also... the bar exam is standardized for 1day... b/c it is multiple choice.. BUT not like the LSAT... you learn the material that is on it for the past 3 years, then you have a bar review course to help you out AND also the next day of exams are NOT standardized but Essay and in some states like Pennsylvania the essay day is worth more than the standardized test day! Also you only have to pass whereas in the LSAT you are graded on in relation to your peers.
  I haven't taken the bar yet.. but I took the MPRE which is a multiple choice exam that is standardized.. I studied the material and rocked it.. it gave me the confidence that I can do something right if I try.
   
  If you do fail the bar retake it.. But even for cooley grads over half who take the bar pass.. .I think their rate is about 70%... that is 70 out of 100 so why can't you be part of that 70? Going to cooley or florida costal is NOt a death sentance so don't treat it like it is. It is just a beginning, sure it may be a path different than most want to take.. but hey sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do! I didn't want to move to Indiana and stay there for 2 years.. although it is an incredible school! I would have gladly moved to Michigan and played socratic method at Cooley too. If I wasn't at Indiana, i would have gone to florida.. Not florida coastal though.. They didn't accept me!!.. but Nova South eastern did and FAMU and perhaps St. Thomas in Miami... I probibly would have liked the weather better there. But then the next year i would apply to transfer and leave, if that didn't work out the way i wanted, then the next year I would apply to visit a school for my final year like I am this year. Either way... i would be right where I am now, graduating and taking both the PA and NJ bar exams... you know why?? B/c all of them ARE accredited law schools and that allows me to sit for ANY bar in the country. I would have still worked at the DA's office, and I would have still applied and "hopefully" gotten into Temple law for an ll.m. since they like my litigation experience at the DA's office.

My route was not my first choice BUT I am still thankful for it and for the great opportunites and times I had in Indiana.. I met some of the best people I have ever met in my life and built life long friendships with people there and some of them moved to the east coast so now I can help them out!! It is all about Networking!!
   Cooley grads.... since it is the largest law school in the country are all OVER the country.

Do what you want.. don't give up b/c then you won't have the opportunity to say you "tried".

Good luck! Keep me posted on your endevors!!
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: SellinEvo84Law on March 02, 2009, 12:01:46 AM
What section is difficult for you to understand? I am simply asking for knowledge (from past experiences) pertaining to this type of decision. So you think I shouldn't attend law school for reasons to you not being able to understand my post? Or because of my choices?  I appreciate your comments.
I think it is important to be honest and frank because too many people hastily make the choice to go to law school. So, please don't take my comments as mean. Here's why I don't think you should go to law school: (1) these are not good schools (so bad that you aren't even guaranteed a legal job after graduating; (2) you are paying full tuition or close to it; (3) your writing ability is sub-par (your post with filled with incorrectly used cliches); and (4) there's no reason to believe you will do well once you are there because your GPA and LSAT are both low.

I just don't think this is a wise investment. I'm sure you have plenty of other talents and suggest that you pursue those rather than entering an already bloated legal market.

Sigh. I disagree with both idea and comments in this thread. There are two types of law students that do well, those that work very hard to do so, and those that work very hard to get into schools that make it easier for them to do well. The latter far outnumber the former, but there are former success stories. Only the OP knows what type of person he/she is, a fighter or a roll over and play dead (i.e. see students side of board: ďIím at top 20 had five bids OCI and did not get a job shoot self?Ē). Iím not saying the odds will not be against the OP, they certainly are. But there have been against many of us, yet two of us, myself and latinlord over came both to be successful. That has nothing to do with the school, it has to do with whatís inside the OP. And only the OP knows if they are enough of a fighter to beat the odds, most people arenít, but a few are. And for those few I say go where you can and make the best of it.

I fit all the things you say make a bad LS candidate. (1) I donít go to a good school, (2) I paid full tuition (and worked to offset that while going to LS), (3) I am a horrible writer, I have sever dyslexia, did not learn to read or write my own name till I was 10 years old, yet Iíve been published in law reviews several times, as well as local bar publications (4) I had horrible numbers, 150/2.9. So bad that I had to convince a school to let me try law classes before the JD, so I started an LLM/MLS and took advanced law classes against 2 and 3Ls under the same testing conditions without having the first year of law school, and I smoked them, getting a 3.65 GPA in 24 credits and taking highest grade in the class twice. That got me into the JD program, where Iím now ranked 13th in my class and have several job offerings for when I graduate in May with the JD and the LLM/MLS.
 
I would have been successful if I went to Cooley, or if I went to Yale, because, just like LatianLord, I was never going to roll over and play dead. Granted, people like me and LL are few and far between, but they are out there, and I will always encourage them to go for it, IF THEY ARE THAT TYPE, because if they listen to the common wisdom, mostly from the roll over type, they will never succeed. So the question is, OP are you willing to work that hard, to never give up, to pick yourself up off the ground, to have people say you canít make it but prove them wrong? If you can answer yes, honestly, to all those questions, then go for it. If you canít, then donít. Thr roll over type will get killed at schools like those. Either give up on law school or keep re-taking the LAST until you can get into a law school that will do more for you than you can do for yourself.


I appreciate all the guidance. I am a fighter! I am not the "roll over type." I understand I will have to climb many more rungs to get where I want to be, but I have been doing that from the start. During my undergraduate I worked an average of 50Hrs./Wk. People told me throughout my undergraduate major selection, Sports Management, that I was not going to get a job. During my time I scheduled meetings with V.P of Daytona Speedway, to basically sell myself for an internship that did not exist. With a successful sale, I created not only an internship, but a position that I ultimately have given up to pursue a law degree. So I have always had the drive and strong work ethic to do more than most. It will be hard, if it was easy everyone would do it.
I do not plan on graduating from Cooley. I do not plan on practicing in Michigan, but isn't it safe to say that many people attend a school that they transfer out of simply because they were not accepted to a school in the state they intend to practice? It is unfortunate I will not be able to wait and hear from all the schools I applied. I completed, on my part, all my applications by January 15, and still have not heard from all. I am hoping, with a recent reach out to the people at Barry U. that I will be accepted from the wait list prior to April 1, which is the deadline to secure a seat for Cooley, as well as the AAMPLE.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: SellinEvo84Law on March 02, 2009, 12:16:22 AM
What are the thoughts on North Carolina Central University? I have yet to hear from them, but my numbers are approximate to what they admit. Is accepting an offer from a different school after you have sent in payment to secure a seat at another shunned upon? Really a sidebar, but I want to get good advice while I have serious individuals with valuable input in this post  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: Ninja1 on March 02, 2009, 12:50:02 AM
What are the thoughts on North Carolina Central University? I have yet to hear from them, but my numbers are approximate to what they admit. Is accepting an offer from a different school after you have sent in payment to secure a seat at another shunned upon? Really a sidebar, but I want to get good advice while I have serious individuals with valuable input in this post  ;D ;D ;D

NCCU = No.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: Matthies on March 02, 2009, 05:03:11 AM
What are the thoughts on North Carolina Central University? I have yet to hear from them, but my numbers are approximate to what they admit. Is accepting an offer from a different school after you have sent in payment to secure a seat at another shunned upon? Really a sidebar, but I want to get good advice while I have serious individuals with valuable input in this post  ;D ;D ;D

you can put down as may seat deposits as you can afford, just be sure to withdraw as soon as your not going there so anouther can get in.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: Matthies on March 02, 2009, 05:20:15 AM
What section is difficult for you to understand? I am simply asking for knowledge (from past experiences) pertaining to this type of decision. So you think I shouldn't attend law school for reasons to you not being able to understand my post? Or because of my choices?  I appreciate your comments.
I think it is important to be honest and frank because too many people hastily make the choice to go to law school. So, please don't take my comments as mean. Here's why I don't think you should go to law school: (1) these are not good schools (so bad that you aren't even guaranteed a legal job after graduating; (2) you are paying full tuition or close to it; (3) your writing ability is sub-par (your post with filled with incorrectly used cliches); and (4) there's no reason to believe you will do well once you are there because your GPA and LSAT are both low.

I just don't think this is a wise investment. I'm sure you have plenty of other talents and suggest that you pursue those rather than entering an already bloated legal market.

Sigh. I disagree with both idea and comments in this thread. There are two types of law students that do well, those that work very hard to do so, and those that work very hard to get into schools that make it easier for them to do well. The latter far outnumber the former, but there are former success stories. Only the OP knows what type of person he/she is, a fighter or a roll over and play dead (i.e. see students side of board: ďIím at top 20 had five bids OCI and did not get a job shoot self?Ē). Iím not saying the odds will not be against the OP, they certainly are. But there have been against many of us, yet two of us, myself and latinlord over came both to be successful. That has nothing to do with the school, it has to do with whatís inside the OP. And only the OP knows if they are enough of a fighter to beat the odds, most people arenít, but a few are. And for those few I say go where you can and make the best of it.

I fit all the things you say make a bad LS candidate. (1) I donít go to a good school, (2) I paid full tuition (and worked to offset that while going to LS), (3) I am a horrible writer, I have sever dyslexia, did not learn to read or write my own name till I was 10 years old, yet Iíve been published in law reviews several times, as well as local bar publications (4) I had horrible numbers, 150/2.9. So bad that I had to convince a school to let me try law classes before the JD, so I started an LLM/MLS and took advanced law classes against 2 and 3Ls under the same testing conditions without having the first year of law school, and I smoked them, getting a 3.65 GPA in 24 credits and taking highest grade in the class twice. That got me into the JD program, where Iím now ranked 13th in my class and have several job offerings for when I graduate in May with the JD and the LLM/MLS.
 
I would have been successful if I went to Cooley, or if I went to Yale, because, just like LatianLord, I was never going to roll over and play dead. Granted, people like me and LL are few and far between, but they are out there, and I will always encourage them to go for it, IF THEY ARE THAT TYPE, because if they listen to the common wisdom, mostly from the roll over type, they will never succeed. So the question is, OP are you willing to work that hard, to never give up, to pick yourself up off the ground, to have people say you canít make it but prove them wrong? If you can answer yes, honestly, to all those questions, then go for it. If you canít, then donít. Thr roll over type will get killed at schools like those. Either give up on law school or keep re-taking the LAST until you can get into a law school that will do more for you than you can do for yourself.


I appreciate all the guidance. I am a fighter! I am not the "roll over type." I understand I will have to climb many more rungs to get where I want to be, but I have been doing that from the start. During my undergraduate I worked an average of 50Hrs./Wk. People told me throughout my undergraduate major selection, Sports Management, that I was not going to get a job. During my time I scheduled meetings with V.P of Daytona Speedway, to basically sell myself for an internship that did not exist. With a successful sale, I created not only an internship, but a position that I ultimately have given up to pursue a law degree. So I have always had the drive and strong work ethic to do more than most. It will be hard, if it was easy everyone would do it.
I do not plan on graduating from Cooley. I do not plan on practicing in Michigan, but isn't it safe to say that many people attend a school that they transfer out of simply because they were not accepted to a school in the state they intend to practice? It is unfortunate I will not be able to wait and hear from all the schools I applied. I completed, on my part, all my applications by January 15, and still have not heard from all. I am hoping, with a recent reach out to the people at Barry U. that I will be accepted from the wait list prior to April 1, which is the deadline to secure a seat for Cooley, as well as the AAMPLE.

Its sounds like you are the type of person who could succeed on their own, but you will have to be. Youíre going to get very little support in finding jobs from these schools, youíre going to rejection a lot if you just mass mail for jobs. Your curve is going to be harsh, meaning youíll have to work harder than if you got into a higher ranked school. Some of your competition will be extreme, as they are trying everything to be first so they can get out.

Youíre going to have to rely on yourself much more than you would at higher ranked schools. Youíre going to have to make things work by doing it yourself, from a school with a bad reputation in a down legal market. So long as you know all of this yet believe inside you have what it takes to make your own future even when the odds are against you, then go for it. But never forget you and only you will be the one who succeeds or fails, you just donít have the support that students at higher ranked schools do.

Youíre going to have to create your own opportunities at every step. I would suggest getting the book Guerilla Tactics for Getting the Law Job of your Dreams by Kimm Walton and reading it cover to cover before law school. You wonít have the luxury at these schools to ever coast or rely on the school to help you pass the bar and get a job. You have to understand, and be willing to accept that all of this, success or fail, is on your shoulders and its going to be a daily fight. If you can really handle that, then go. If you have ANY doubts, donít go.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: cannotpick on March 02, 2009, 06:37:08 AM
"I interviewed with an attorney who went to cooley, he now makes close to a million a year and has a very sucessful personal injury firm."

And I know a guy that became a professional baseball player. Does that mean I should tell people that pursuing sports is a good career move? The fact is that Cooley is a scam and most of its grads end up with a big pile of debt that they can't pay off. But hey, if you are willing to take that kind of a risk, best of luck.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: Matthies on March 02, 2009, 06:54:24 AM
"I interviewed with an attorney who went to cooley, he now makes close to a million a year and has a very sucessful personal injury firm."

And I know a guy that became a professional baseball player. Does that mean I should tell people that pursuing sports is a good career move? The fact is that Cooley is a scam and most of its grads end up with a big pile of debt that they can't pay off. But hey, if you are willing to take that kind of a risk, best of luck.

Some people will suceed, some people have no other choice, for those people I say go for it. If you want to be a lawyer bad eough you will find a way to make it happen. If you only want to be a lawyer if you can get into school X, that's an option too. Some folks are just willing to take more risks for thier goal than others, if they are the kind of person that can pull it off, then I will suuport them. Most arn't, just like most won't become a profesional baseball player, but a few will, and a few will be good lawyers even out of cooley.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: latinlord on March 02, 2009, 07:59:52 AM
"*In clinical studies, Matthies was well tolerated, but women who are pregnant, nursing or might become pregnant should not take or handle Matthies due to a rare, but serious side effect called him having to make child support payments."


HAHA  ;D


PS: Cooley... as always is the center of so much drama.... I honestly don't see what the problem is... I go to a tier 2 school and sadly a lot of people are stuggling to find jobs. In this economy.. unless your ivy league.. you are going to have to hussle a little to get jobs... So it isn't about your degree for the rest.. .but what you can do with it and the networking you are able to pull off. So from my standpoint... seriously... honestly... i think everyone after top14 without a job is in the same boat! This economy sux... 


   
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: SellinEvo84Law on March 02, 2009, 10:54:15 AM
"I interviewed with an attorney who went to cooley, he now makes close to a million a year and has a very sucessful personal injury firm."

And I know a guy that became a professional baseball player. Does that mean I should tell people that pursuing sports is a good career move? The fact is that Cooley is a scam and most of its grads end up with a big pile of debt that they can't pay off. But hey, if you are willing to take that kind of a risk, best of luck.

Some people will suceed, some people have no other choice, for those people I say go for it. If you want to be a lawyer bad eough you will find a way to make it happen. If you only want to be a lawyer if you can get into school X, that's an option too. Some folks are just willing to take more risks for thier goal than others, if they are the kind of person that can pull it off, then I will suuport them. Most arn't, just like most won't become a profesional baseball player, but a few will, and a few will be good lawyers even out of cooley.
So will this be the situation even if I transfer to a better school T2-T3? Hypothetically, What If I earned a high enough spot within the class, to transfer to one of these Tiered schools. Would I still face the same turmoil simply because I transferred from Cooley? Or is this in in the assumption that I graduate from Cooley? On the former, Would you think top 10% of my class would suffice on transferring to UMiami?
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: latinlord on March 02, 2009, 11:03:15 AM
"I interviewed with an attorney who went to cooley, he now makes close to a million a year and has a very sucessful personal injury firm."

And I know a guy that became a professional baseball player. Does that mean I should tell people that pursuing sports is a good career move? The fact is that Cooley is a scam and most of its grads end up with a big pile of debt that they can't pay off. But hey, if you are willing to take that kind of a risk, best of luck.

Some people will suceed, some people have no other choice, for those people I say go for it. If you want to be a lawyer bad eough you will find a way to make it happen. If you only want to be a lawyer if you can get into school X, that's an option too. Some folks are just willing to take more risks for thier goal than others, if they are the kind of person that can pull it off, then I will suuport them. Most arn't, just like most won't become a profesional baseball player, but a few will, and a few will be good lawyers even out of cooley.
So will this be the situation even if I transfer to a better school T2-T3? Hypothetically, What If I earned a high enough spot within the class, to transfer to one of these Tiered schools. Would I still face the same turmoil simply because I transferred from Cooley? Or is this in in the assumption that I graduate from Cooley? On the former, Would you think top 10% of my class would suffice on transferring to UMiami?

Yes you alwasy want to try to make things better for yourself in your situation... Miami would be good.. especilaly if you want to work in Florida. I'm just simply saying that right now... no one is really 100% safe, the economy is hurting everyone no matter what school you are going to.. it is becomming less about school name as about your own networking ability and goals. If I were you I would transfer for other reason like... location of school, price of school and programs of school instead of the simple stated so called "ranking of the school"

Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: Matthies on March 02, 2009, 11:05:28 AM
"I interviewed with an attorney who went to cooley, he now makes close to a million a year and has a very sucessful personal injury firm."

And I know a guy that became a professional baseball player. Does that mean I should tell people that pursuing sports is a good career move? The fact is that Cooley is a scam and most of its grads end up with a big pile of debt that they can't pay off. But hey, if you are willing to take that kind of a risk, best of luck.

Some people will suceed, some people have no other choice, for those people I say go for it. If you want to be a lawyer bad eough you will find a way to make it happen. If you only want to be a lawyer if you can get into school X, that's an option too. Some folks are just willing to take more risks for thier goal than others, if they are the kind of person that can pull it off, then I will suuport them. Most arn't, just like most won't become a profesional baseball player, but a few will, and a few will be good lawyers even out of cooley.
So will this be the situation even if I transfer to a better school T2-T3? Hypothetically, What If I earned a high enough spot within the class, to transfer to one of these Tiered schools. Would I still face the same turmoil simply because I transferred from Cooley? Or is this in in the assumption that I graduate from Cooley? On the former, Would you think top 10% of my class would suffice on transferring to UMiami?

I would only go to ANY school if your willing to face the fact that you may not be bae to transfer out. Do not go in thinking you'll just go there for one year, you need to be willing to do waht it takes to succed at the school you enrolled in if that's how the chips fall
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: azlaw09 on March 03, 2009, 04:15:03 AM
OP,

One of the best things you can consider when choosing a school (regardless if it's top 50 or tier 4) is how the bottom 50% of the class fares after finishing. If that fits in with your career aspirations then go for it. I'd warn against going to any school assuming that you will achieve certain grades/rank etc. because it might not happen. There are a lot of hard working, very smart people in any law school and grades are at least somewhat arbitrary--a letter grade (in the case of a cooley student, perhaps whether the student makes it past 1L)might turn on something VERY small on your exam. Also consider that at a school like Cooley, the competition will even more fierce because people are all fighting for a chance to transfer out/not get kicked out etc. I don't think any of us that are giving you a warning are "haters" or trying to rain on your parade we are just giving you some insight into what some of the realities of law school are.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: Ninja1 on March 03, 2009, 08:29:59 AM
"*In clinical studies, Matthies was well tolerated, but women who are pregnant, nursing or might become pregnant should not take or handle ...

Cooley... as always is the center of so much drama.... I honestly don't see what the problem is... I go to a tier 2 school and sadly a lot of people are stuggling to find jobs. In this economy.. unless your ivy league.. you are going to have to hussle a little to get jobs... So it isn't about your degree for the rest.. .but what you can do with it and the networking you are able to pull off. So from my standpoint... seriously... honestly... i think everyone after top14 without a job is in the same boat! This economy sux... 


   

People from your t2 are having problems. Imagine what's going on at most t4s right now.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: SellinEvo84Law on March 05, 2009, 05:45:33 PM
I know it is very unorthodox, but can't I simply secure a seat at Cooley and begin rigorously studying for the June LSAT? If my score does not improve dramatically then I maintain my seat, but if it does I withdrawal my seat and wait a year at most and apply to a school in my desired area. Right?
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: Contract2008 on March 05, 2009, 06:14:39 PM
I know it is very unorthodox, but can't I simply secure a seat at Cooley and begin rigorously studying for the June LSAT? If my score does not improve dramatically then I maintain my seat, but if it does I withdrawal my seat and wait a year at most and apply to a school in my desired area. Right?

When do you get your result for the June LSAT? 
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: LawDog3 on March 05, 2009, 06:22:23 PM
Out of the T4 schools, Southwestern in Los Angeles (the best T4 in the country by far) or even Thomas Jefferson in San Diego would be better than either. My question is, why not one of the really respectable T3's? If you could get into a school like a Wayne State (a Detroit school many say is T2 caliber) or Vermont (a school some say is really a Top-50 school) or Howard (also a highly underrated T3 school) you'd be in excellent shape.

Or what about Suffolk, San Francisco, St. Thomas, Michigan State, Cleveland State, Albany, Akron, Chapman, Hamline, NYLS, Hofstra? Those are all really good schools and considered T2 in some polls. Heck, Suffolk, Howard, Vermont, Hofstra, NYLS and S.F. have been as high as Top-50/Top-60 in some rankings.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: latinlord on March 05, 2009, 06:24:58 PM
I know it is very unorthodox, but can't I simply secure a seat at Cooley and begin rigorously studying for the June LSAT? If my score does not improve dramatically then I maintain my seat, but if it does I withdrawal my seat and wait a year at most and apply to a school in my desired area. Right?

Sure you could do that...  You can technically withdraw from law school whenever you want... I think the june LSAT scores come out a month after the exam... so whenever the LSAT is... the scores will come out about 30 days later or so... You should have your score by the time classes start at Cooley... which isn't till August I would guess...

It is a viable option ... good luck
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: SellinEvo84Law on March 05, 2009, 06:36:17 PM
I know it is very unorthodox, but can't I simply secure a seat at Cooley and begin rigorously studying for the June LSAT? If my score does not improve dramatically then I maintain my seat, but if it does I withdrawal my seat and wait a year at most and apply to a school in my desired area. Right?

When do you get your result for the June LSAT? 
The test is June 8. So I would get the score on the 29th of June, by email.

LawDog3; I did apply to Thomas Jefferson, St. Thomas, among many others, but have been rejected, except for Barry, which I am still on the wait list.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: Contract2008 on March 05, 2009, 07:49:45 PM
Out of the T4 schools, Southwestern in Los Angeles (the best T4 in the country by far) or even Thomas Jefferson in San Diego would be better than either. My question is, why not one of the really respectable T3's? If you could get into a school like a Wayne State (a Detroit school many say is T2 caliber) or Vermont (a school some say is really a Top-50 school) or Howard (also a highly underrated T3 school) you'd be in excellent shape.

Or what about Suffolk, San Francisco, St. Thomas, Michigan State, Cleveland State, Albany, Akron, Chapman, Hamline, NYLS, Hofstra? Those are all really good schools and considered T2 in some pools. Heck, Suffolk, Howard, Vermont, Hofstra, NYLS and S.F. have been as high as Top-50/Top-60 in some rankings.

Is that a joke? 
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: LawDog3 on March 05, 2009, 09:09:19 PM
No...it's no joke, Contract2008. Ok...so Vermont is more like top-100, but still higher than USN projects. There's stuff on the net from people saying it. Look at Law 100, Lawdragon or Vault to see some rankings of underrated schools. Also, in her admissions book, Susan Estrich mentions Vermont and Suffolk along with Tulane, Chicago-Kent and Syracuse as the most underrated schools in the country. Moreover, like Vermont and Suffolk can be T2, Chicago-Kent, Loyola (L.A.), Brooklyn Law, Temple, and, to a lesser degree, Miami, are top-30 in the minds of some experts. Look it up.

I am not a fan of Cooley by any stretch...I think it's a mill, a factory and a cash-cow cooked up by Brennan to exploit students. If Cooley is the best you can do right now, I suggest you wait. Get into one of those others. Go to Nova or one of those others. Put in some more apps.

Go to University of District of Columbia, Cal Western, Florida A & M, or even Drexel. Florida Coastal is better than Cooley. Phoenix Law is better (Phoenix Dean Dennis Shields was Admissions Dean of Duke Law until about 2005). Cooley is the worst law school in the country, and, if you go there, you are bound to regret it.

I don't know what your numbers are, but you don't have to be above 3.3 or 155 to get into any of those schools, and I know Vermont has taken students with 2.8/145.

It sounds like the USN T2 are out of reach, but those T3's are not. Aim as high as you can go, and put in an application at Southwestern. I don't know what happened to its ranking, but it actually has decent job prospects in L.A. and it is a very innoative, respected school. Cooley? Hell no!

http://www.lawdragon.com/index.php/lawdragon/fullstory/law_school_update/

http://www.lawschool100.com/

http://www.top-law-schools.com/vermont-law-school.html

http://www.vermontlaw.edu/x6823.xml

http://www.vault.com/graddegree/school/school_main.jsp?program_id=3744&type=3&co_page=5&ch_id=351
(excerpts only if not a gold member)

http://www.ilrg.com/rankings/law/view.php/171
(for some numbers)



Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: botbot on March 05, 2009, 09:28:55 PM
http://zerolblog.com/?p=414

Two conflicting opinions about this question...
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: latinlord on March 05, 2009, 09:39:57 PM
http://zerolblog.com/?p=414

Two conflicting opinions about this question...

Wow that is a cool website!! haha
  And I like my answer... Do both.. haha do AAMPle and if you are not accepted you still have cooley to lean on to! haha
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: SellinEvo84Law on March 05, 2009, 10:20:38 PM
The issue of financing the $3500 AAMPLE program surfaces. Seeing how the school does not offer financial aid, because it is not considered a "degree seeking program." So it is safe to assume that if any other school accepts me, I should accept that offer over Cooley. Schools I'm waiting to hear from are: North Carolina Central U., Seton Hall, Widener U, U of Detroit Mercy, and a wait list Barry U.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: LawDog3 on March 06, 2009, 02:52:34 AM
The issue of financing the $3500 AAMPLE program surfaces. Seeing how the school does not offer financial aid, because it is not considered a "degree seeking program." So it is safe to assume that if any other school accepts me, I should accept that offer over Cooley. Schools I'm waiting to hear from are: North Carolina Central U., Seton Hall, Widener U, U of Detroit Mercy, and a wait list Barry U.

NCCU and Seton would be good.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: kennedyposter on March 06, 2009, 07:26:40 AM
It's worth noting that the chances of getting through the AAMPLE program are roughly the same as those of actually graduating from Cooley and passing the bar (i.e. less than 50/50).

A much easier option would be to retake the LSAT and apply next year. Then get into those same schools with scholarship money.

Granted, but it will be my third time taking the LSAT. <12/08(145) 09/07(138)> Is the option of transferring that minuscule to consider? I succumbed to a low SAT score as well, so it would be safe to say I am not the best at standardized tests.

This is a flame...guessing usually gets you further than a 138
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: nealric on March 06, 2009, 08:29:07 AM
Quote
This is a flame...guessing usually gets you further than a 138
 

Perhaps it is, but not because of the score. Statistically, a 138 should be no more rare than a 162. You just hear from the 162 types much more often.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: LawDog3 on March 07, 2009, 02:00:06 AM
Quote
This is a flame...guessing usually gets you further than a 138
 

Perhaps it is, but not because of the score. Statistically, a 138 should be no more rare than a 162. You just hear from the 162 types much more often.

Agreed. And many of these "162 types" are lying...point-blank! I have yet to meet a person in real life who scored below 160. It is statistically impossible that they're all telling the truth. Only 20% of examinees score above 160, and if you're around examinees frequently, only one in four should be saying they scored above the mark. This rule excludes top-25 law schools, of course.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: nealric on March 08, 2009, 12:43:56 PM
Quote
And many of these "162 types" are lying...point-blank! I have yet to meet a person in real life who scored below 160. It is statistically impossible that they're all telling the truth.

Perhaps the social circles you run in are populated by high scorers. Those who attend elite colleges probably don't come across many low scorers.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: Ninja1 on March 08, 2009, 02:08:21 PM
Quote
This is a flame...guessing usually gets you further than a 138
 

Perhaps it is, but not because of the score. Statistically, a 138 should be no more rare than a 162. You just hear from the 162 types much more often.

And many of these "162 types" are lying...point-blank! ...

I've met at least 3 people that I know with 100% certainty lied about their scores. One said she got a 160 something, took the LSAT again, said she got a 160 something again, and it turned out she got a 148 and a 152. She now attends the worst school in her state, which has about 5 schools.

Another had pretty much the same pattern going, but she was a lot funnier and was telling everyone that she was getting all of these full rides from everywhere, but the one she was considering the most was... wait for it... Princeton. And she was serious. Anyway, after spending a few months informing people about the fact Princeton hasn't had a law school in over 100 years and telling them to ask her about Princeton and getting the excited feedback from them about how she was really talking it up, I think she figured it out, because then we stopped hearing about Princeton and it became a three way race between NYU, CU, and Syracuse, all offering full rides... The last time I talked to her, she told me she was going to Syracuse for a year than transferring to CU.

And the last one was a guy that was telling everyone he was scoring between 169-172 (it varied depending on who you asked), and he was AA, but he kept taking LSAT prep classes and kept retaking the LSAT. He would generally tell people Chicago was giving him a full ride, but that he wasn't taking it because his wife died and he was starting an orphanage (seriously, and near as I can tell, his wife is still alive) or that the police kept hassling him because he was black and they thought he was a Gangster Disciple because of his tattoos, and now Chicago was stalling him.

People habitually lie about their LSAT scores. I suspect they lie about their grades too, but that's a little harder to see hard evidence of.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: Contract2008 on March 08, 2009, 02:54:31 PM
Moreover, like Vermont and Suffolk can be T2, Chicago-Kent, Loyola (L.A.), Brooklyn Law, Temple, and, to a lesser degree, Miami, are top-30 in the minds of some experts.

Is this another joke of yours?
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: LawDog3 on March 09, 2009, 01:14:32 AM
Moreover, like Vermont and Suffolk can be T2, Chicago-Kent, Loyola (L.A.), Brooklyn Law, Temple, and, to a lesser degree, Miami, are top-30 in the minds of some experts.

Is this another joke of yours?

No...might be another joke of those rankers...I don't rank schools. Talk to Vault.com or Lawdragon...or Princeton Review...or Susan Estrich at USC. Don't shoot the messenger.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: LawDog3 on March 09, 2009, 01:19:46 AM
Quote
And many of these "162 types" are lying...point-blank! I have yet to meet a person in real life who scored below 160. It is statistically impossible that they're all telling the truth.

Perhaps the social circles you run in are populated by high scorers. Those who attend elite colleges probably don't come across many low scorers.

Touche'. I did come from a school with lots of high scorers who actually got admitted to even better law schools. I went to the University of Washington, and many of my peers are going everywhere from Harvard to Vanderbilt and in-between. Funny thing is, the most popular LSAT coach teaches/taught 1/3 to 1/2 of these people, esp. since Princeton Review is gone, most ppl know Kaplan sucks and Testmasters has no Seattle office.

Ninja-1, that's funny. If they put in as much time actually preparing and doing their research...let alone studying during undergrad, they'd have those rides they keep talking about. "Princeton Law School"...LMAO. That dummy hadn't even checked the rankings.

"CU"? That's Colorado University, right? lol. Columbia Law School is CLS (but I know what you mean) and U-Chicago has no acronym that I know of. 'Cuse, NYU and CLS? Who can't make that choice? 'Cuse is off the list, no diss on 'Cuse. I asked one of my undergrad TA's what schools she had gotten into, and she told me...I'll never forget how she worded this, Well, "'it' came down to" Berkeley and Seattle-U, and I just chose to go to SU b/c they gave me a scholarship."

It's hella sad to listen to someone lie like that to your face and you can just tell they feel bad about it, esp. a teacher who's supposed to be respected. And she lied w/o actually lying. I mean, what does "'it' came down to" mean? Her ambiguity gave her away, and the fact that she was a teacher meant that she knew outright that she would have chosen Berkeley if she'd had the option. She was going into academia, for cryin' outloud; her goal was to be a college or law prof!  
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: Ninja1 on March 09, 2009, 11:10:24 AM
Quote
And many of these "162 types" are lying...point-blank! I have yet to meet a person in real life who scored below 160. It is statistically impossible that they're all telling the truth.

Perhaps the social circles you run in are populated by high scorers. Those who attend elite colleges probably don't come across many low scorers.

Touche'. I did come from a school with lots of high scorers who actually got admitted to even better law schools. I went to the University of Washington, and many of my peers are going everywhere from Harvard to Vanderbilt and in-between. Funny thing is, the most popular LSAT coach teaches/taught 1/3 to 1/2 of these people, esp. since Princeton Review is gone, most ppl know Kaplan sucks and Testmasters has no Seattle office.

Ninja-1, that's funny. If they put in as much time actually preparing and doing their research...let alone studying during undergrad, they'd have those rides they keep talking about. "Princeton Law School"...LMAO. That dummy hadn't even checked the rankings.

"CU"? That's Colorado University, right? lol. Columbia Law School is CLS (but I know what you mean) and U-Chicago has no acronym that I know of. 'Cuse, NYU and CLS? Who can't make that choice? 'Cuse is off the list, no diss on 'Cuse. I asked one of my undergrad TA's what schools she had gotten into, and she told me...I'll never forget how she worded this, Well, "'it' came down to" Berkeley and Seattle-U, and I just chose to go to SU b/c they gave me a scholarship."

It's hella sad to listen to someone lie like that to your face and you can just tell they feel bad about it, esp. a teacher who's supposed to be respected. And she lied w/o actually lying. I mean, what does "'it' came down to" mean? Her ambiguity gave her away, and the fact that she was a teacher meant that she knew outright that she would have chosen Berkeley had she had the option. She was going into academia, for cryin' outloud; her goal was to be a college or law prof! She must have thought I was really stupid. But she gave me a 3.8/4.0 in her undergrad law class, so that couldn't be it, either.    

They were pretty funny, and they were all habitual liars.

The Princeton one was the best though, her stories were so ridiculous, you just couldn't help but mock her. And every week, they would contain some new element that made them even more absurd. At least the one was only lying about her scores, and the guy was at least somewhat consistent in his lies, even if they were over the top. The girl lied about almost everything (law school and non-law school related), was really inconsistent, and clearly did no research before jumping into her tales.

CU = Colorado. So yeah, she was saying it was between NYU, CU, and Syracuse, and they were all giving her full rides. She told us about 10 other places that were giving her full rides (including a few in England). I'm pretty sure she was just trying to name drop anywhere she'd heard of that sounded even sort of prestigious, causing things like Princeton and the Syracuse-NYU comparison.

Also, a few people that took the LSAT with the Princeton girl said she burned through her LSAT and sat there for the last 5 or 10 minutes in each section. I feel like even if you could get through all of the reading and answer all of the questions that quickly, you'd still go back and check over your answers until time was called.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: LawDog3 on March 09, 2009, 04:48:02 PM
Quote
And many of these "162 types" are lying...point-blank! I have yet to meet a person in real life who scored below 160. It is statistically impossible that they're all telling the truth.

Perhaps the social circles you run in are populated by high scorers. Those who attend elite colleges probably don't come across many low scorers.

Touche'. I did come from a school with lots of high scorers who actually got admitted to even better law schools. I went to the University of Washington, and many of my peers are going everywhere from Harvard to Vanderbilt and in-between. Funny thing is, the most popular LSAT coach teaches/taught 1/3 to 1/2 of these people, esp. since Princeton Review is gone, most ppl know Kaplan sucks and Testmasters has no Seattle office.

Ninja-1, that's funny. If they put in as much time actually preparing and doing their research...let alone studying during undergrad, they'd have those rides they keep talking about. "Princeton Law School"...LMAO. That dummy hadn't even checked the rankings.

"CU"? That's Colorado University, right? lol. Columbia Law School is CLS (but I know what you mean) and U-Chicago has no acronym that I know of. 'Cuse, NYU and CLS? Who can't make that choice? 'Cuse is off the list, no diss on 'Cuse. I asked one of my undergrad TA's what schools she had gotten into, and she told me...I'll never forget how she worded this, Well, "'it' came down to" Berkeley and Seattle-U, and I just chose to go to SU b/c they gave me a scholarship."

It's hella sad to listen to someone lie like that to your face and you can just tell they feel bad about it, esp. a teacher who's supposed to be respected. And she lied w/o actually lying. I mean, what does "'it' came down to" mean? Her ambiguity gave her away, and the fact that she was a teacher meant that she knew outright that she would have chosen Berkeley had she had the option. She was going into academia, for cryin' outloud; her goal was to be a college or law prof! She must have thought I was really stupid. But she gave me a 3.8/4.0 in her undergrad law class, so that couldn't be it, either.    

Also, a few people that took the LSAT with the Princeton girl said she burned through her LSAT and sat there for the last 5 or 10 minutes in each section. I feel like even if you could get through all of the reading and answer all of the questions that quickly, you'd still go back and check over your answers until time was called.

Now that's interesting. Those other test-takers should have been so deep in concentration, they wouldn't have known. I can't tell who finishes before me when I take an exam, I am too concentrated.

Still, only a small percentage of LSAT test-takers get over 160, and most of the time, people should be quoting lower scores. I have heard a lot of scores, and maybe 10 people total have ever admitted scoring below 160. I remember exactly who they were, and they still got into good schools. But, so many 165's+ and the like? That doesn't ring true. I had a guy say he got a 170 and cancelled it...which tells me he probably hadn't even taken the LSAT. If he had, he would have known that a cancelled exam is not part of the curve and, thus, cannot be scored. And even if it could, the examinee is not allowed to see it.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: Ninja1 on March 09, 2009, 06:26:52 PM
Quote
And many of these "162 types" are lying...point-blank! I have yet to meet a person in real life who scored below 160. It is statistically impossible that they're all telling the truth.

Perhaps the social circles you run in are populated by high scorers. Those who attend elite colleges probably don't come across many low scorers.

Touche'. I did come from a school with lots of high scorers who actually got admitted to even better law schools. I went to the University of Washington, and many of my peers are going everywhere from Harvard to Vanderbilt and in-between. Funny thing is, the most popular LSAT coach teaches/taught 1/3 to 1/2 of these people, esp. since Princeton Review is gone, most ppl know Kaplan sucks and Testmasters has no Seattle office.

Ninja-1, that's funny. If they put in as much time actually preparing and doing their research...let alone studying during undergrad, they'd have those rides they keep talking about. "Princeton Law School"...LMAO. That dummy hadn't even checked the rankings.

"CU"? That's Colorado University, right? lol. Columbia Law School is CLS (but I know what you mean) and U-Chicago has no acronym that I know of. 'Cuse, NYU and CLS? Who can't make that choice? 'Cuse is off the list, no diss on 'Cuse. I asked one of my undergrad TA's what schools she had gotten into, and she told me...I'll never forget how she worded this, Well, "'it' came down to" Berkeley and Seattle-U, and I just chose to go to SU b/c they gave me a scholarship."

It's hella sad to listen to someone lie like that to your face and you can just tell they feel bad about it, esp. a teacher who's supposed to be respected. And she lied w/o actually lying. I mean, what does "'it' came down to" mean? Her ambiguity gave her away, and the fact that she was a teacher meant that she knew outright that she would have chosen Berkeley had she had the option. She was going into academia, for cryin' outloud; her goal was to be a college or law prof! She must have thought I was really stupid. But she gave me a 3.8/4.0 in her undergrad law class, so that couldn't be it, either.    

Also, a few people that took the LSAT with the Princeton girl said she burned through her LSAT and sat there for the last 5 or 10 minutes in each section. I feel like even if you could get through all of the reading and answer all of the questions that quickly, you'd still go back and check over your answers until time was called.

Now that's interesting. Those other test-takers should have been so deep in concentration, they wouldn't have known. I can't tell who finishes before me when I take an exam, I am too concentrated.

Still, only a small percentage of LSAT test-takers get over 160, and most of the time, people should be quoting lower scores. I have heard a lot of scores, and maybe 10 people total have ever admitted scoring below 160. I remember exactly who they were, and they still got into good schools. But, so many 165's+ and the like? That doesn't ring true. I had a guy say he got a 170 and cancelled it...which tells me he probably hadn't even taken the LSAT. If he had, he would have known that a cancelled exam is not part of the curve and, thus, cannot be scored. And even if it could, the examinee is not allowed to see it.

And that's how I usually catch the LSAT liars, by hooking them on procedural discrepancies.

As for the LSAT, I think you'd notice if someone was sitting there for 5 minutes doing nothing, even if you were working your ass off. Subconscious mind and ninja vision and *&^%.

I also know a guy that lied about getting into Texas (he didn't know what a personal statement was) and is now going into the Army as an enlisted man, even though he has a BA.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Cooley Vs. Nova Southeastern AAMPLE program
Post by: taxguy on May 19, 2011, 09:54:26 PM
My son is taking the AAMPLE program at Nova. Thus, let me share my view of it.

When I first heard about it, my initial thoughts were, "It was a scam. Here they charge a lot of money for courses that don't count for law school credit and only  give at best a 50% chance of being admitted." However, as I looked into the results of the AAMPLE program, I was very impressed. Most of the kids who are admitted through AAMPLE usually are among the top students at the law school, and certainly as a group, beat out those with higher LSATs. In fact, the correlation for success is quite astounding. Even students who don't pass AAMPLE, usually do among the best students at law schools.

My son was admitted into both AAMPLE and into Cooley. The results were so successful for AAMPLE grads, that I suggested to my son that he take the AAMPLE program even though he was fully admitted to Cooley. Be advised: the AAMPLE program is not for the weak hearted. It works the kids to death. You really need to put in at least 60 hours of work, in addition to the classroom time.