Law School Discussion

Law Students => Job Search => Topic started by: Ricephilx on February 01, 2009, 08:22:30 PM

Title: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Ricephilx on February 01, 2009, 08:22:30 PM
We are a legal services startup founded by two recent Rice graduates -- and we need smart, ambitious PT associates!

This position requires you to help small law firms with research/writing projects or other support tasks -- typical Summer Associate tasks, or even simpler.  You can work from anywhere in the world, as many or as few hours a day as you want -- you just log onto our website, and projects will be waiting for you.  And you get to pick the ones you want to work on!   

Not only will you get paid $25 an hour, but it's an opportunity to build a portfolio of projects, make contacts with firms, and explore different areas of the law.   

You will be an independent contractor and will have to sign a confidentiality agreement.

Here's specifically what we are looking for:

-167 LSAT or better*
-Law firm experience*
-You don't mind competing with others for projects (first come, first serve)
-Availability* (School-year? Summers? Post-graduation?)


Please include descriptions of the * items in the body of your email.  Attach CV. acelawstudents@gmail.com
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Stole Your Nose! on February 01, 2009, 09:35:02 PM
Are you guys providing Westlaw/Lexis or just hoping to leach off of the school contracts?

And the fact that you are using LSAT and not requesting GPA or school is just bizarre.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: JeNeSaisLaw on February 01, 2009, 11:43:58 PM
Sounds (major inference?) like an interesting business model. Clearly it's for free research, but why not if small firms do it? Not much of a difference between telecommuting and regular business for research as far as I'm concerned. That said, you know you're a major geek when you read this and are immediately interested in seeing the web platform...maybe I shouldn't be in law school!
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Bob Loblaw Esq. on February 02, 2009, 04:32:19 AM
i am not sure which is more humorous, the lsat score requirement or "advertising" on lsd. 
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Stole Your Nose! on February 02, 2009, 08:33:31 AM
Quote
Clearly it's for free research, but why not if small firms do it?

Because the students can wind up stuck with a ridiculous Westlaw/Lexis bill? Read the contract on the web, and I know for a fact it happens.  I imagine also the company could get sued if that's part of the business plan.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Ricephilx on February 02, 2009, 09:10:31 AM
Thanks for the replies. 

First of all, we are a startup and make no claims to the pretensions of the traditional law industry.  For this reason, we will advertise here, there and everywhere. 

We do request your CV, which we would hope includes your school attended and GPA.  LSAT, though, is our first-pass sorting mechanism. 

In respect to Lexis/Westlaw, we hope that no one breaks any preexisting contracts they have.  As independent contractors, our associates will be responsible for the means and methods they choose to utilize in completing projects.  This means we do not tell them how to do their job.

Please feel free to present your additional concerns and questions!
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Stole Your Nose! on February 02, 2009, 09:40:08 AM
Quote
In respect to Lexis/Westlaw, we hope that no one breaks any preexisting contracts they have.  As independent contractors, our associates will be responsible for the means and methods they choose to utilize in completing projects.

Hahaha. This is unbelievably disingenuous.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Bob Loblaw Esq. on February 02, 2009, 10:33:50 AM

First of all, we are a startup and make no claims to the pretensions of the traditional law industry.  For this reason, we will advertise here, there and everywhere. 


lets be honest, the pretentiousness of your flame firm firm is the least of your worries.  its not humorous that anyone would solicit work on lsd based on the pretensions of the traditional law industry.  what is humorous is the thought of the type of candidate that would actually respond with interest to your post.


We do request your CV, which we would hope includes your school attended and GPA.  LSAT, though, is our first-pass sorting mechanism. 


of course, because anyone with below a 167 would obviously not be qualified.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: TheDudeMan on February 02, 2009, 10:58:48 AM
It's hilarious that they want the LSAT score.  Honestly, it likely goes to show that these aren't even lawyers doing recruiting since they obviously know how WORTHLESS the LSAT score is once you get in law school (and this is coming from someone that meets their stupid requirement for scores).

How lame.  Troll.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: CTL on February 02, 2009, 11:23:12 AM
What's the median LSAT at Rice?
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Ricephilx on February 02, 2009, 11:27:57 AM
Correct, we are looking for candidates who, among other criteria, have scored 167 on an official LSAT, and want part-time independent-contractor employment. 

I understand there is some confusion about the LSAT requirement.  An LSAT score correlates highly with the institution a student ends up attending, without excluding intelligent students who chose to attend lower tier schools.  Unlike a law firm, we do not gauge candidates on unquantifiables like social activities or law review involvement.       

If an applicant does not have this score or better, or is unsure of how to efficiently perform research tasks, we are unfortunately not accepting their applications at this time. 

Best,

Will
acelawstudents@gmail.com

Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Ricephilx on February 02, 2009, 11:37:11 AM
Correct, we are looking for candidates who, among other criteria, have scored 167 on an official LSAT, and want part-time independent-contractor employment. 

I understand there is some confusion about the LSAT requirement.  An LSAT score correlates highly with the institution a student ends up attending, without excluding intelligent students who chose to attend lower tier schools.  Unlike a law firm, we do not gauge candidates on unquantifiables like social activities or law review involvement.       

If an applicant does not have this score or better, or is unsure of how to efficiently perform research tasks, we are unfortunately not accepting their applications at this time. 

Best,

Will
acelawstudents@gmail.com
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on February 02, 2009, 11:41:48 AM
How many projects do you have, on average, a week? How many hours do these projects take?

How many firms are you working with?

How many students have you already suckered into violating the terms of their Lexis/Westlaw contracts for you hired?

Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Ricephilx on February 02, 2009, 12:01:56 PM
Susan B.,

No one should violate any agreements they have.  We recommend students use library textbooks that are available for public use.  But by the very nature of the independent contractor relationship, we MUST not tell students how to do their job.  To do so would violate the test applied by the IRS in classifying workers.   

We have 10 small firms signed up and waiting for our launch in 90 days.  We have no way of knowing how many projects they will submit.  This job isn't for students who need to make $x a week.  The cost of allowing students total flexibility is the predictable weekly paycheck.  This is for freelancers, with a freelancing mindset. 

The vast majority of the projects will be 3 hours or less. 

I'll be happy to answer any more questions.

Best,

Will
acelawstudents@gmail.com

Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Bob Loblaw Esq. on February 02, 2009, 12:12:48 PM
We recommend students use library textbooks that are available for public use. 


lol library textbooks.

don't worry client/firm x, based on the research conducted by a random discussion board poster using library textbooks, I am confident this is the manner in which you should proceed.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Ricephilx on February 02, 2009, 12:32:15 PM
Bob,

You raise a good point.  Our clients will all be lawyers, who are ultimately responsible for what they do with the research or other work-product they receive from the students.  We will not be offering "legal advice".  Clients will have direct interaction with the students, guiding the project in the directions it needs to go. 

Best,

Will
acelawstudents@gmail.com 
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Stole Your Nose! on February 02, 2009, 12:37:41 PM
If you can't tell from the feedback, this is a bad idea.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Ricephilx on February 02, 2009, 12:49:01 PM
Stole,

Happy to address any specific concerns you may have. 


IrrX,

Haha, I, um, discourage those at Cooley from applying. 



Best,

Will
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: TheDudeMan on February 02, 2009, 02:53:15 PM
I love that some moron from Rice is eliminating candidates based on LSAT.

You do realize that there very well may be students that are top of their class, that scored below a "167" and are going to work for top vault firms, right?

Your company is shooting itself in the foot by utilizing lsat scores.  Think about it.  Law firms don't use it when recruiting, why would you?  Especially when working for your company falls somewhere around "Ambulance chaser" on the prestige hierarchy.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Ricephilx on February 02, 2009, 03:21:57 PM
DudeMan,

Thanks for your input. 

Yes, we realize we may be excluding a wide sector of bright, talented, ambitious students.  Unfortunately, the problem we face is we need a fair standard to compare candidates with high disparities of experience -- it is not that useful to rely on class rank when comparing a 1L to a 3L, for example.  Nor is it especially fair to have a predefined list of law schools, because very talented students go to "lesser" schools for any number of reasons. 

With respect to our prestige, that's not something we will ever worry about.  Our goal is to deliver top service to law firms at an affordable price, and provide a meaningful, flexible PT employment option for current law students. 

Best,

Will
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Stole Your Nose! on February 02, 2009, 03:50:35 PM
This has got to be flame. 
1) For responding to all the posts.
2) For pretending to run a business based on stealing from Westlaw & Lexis. I'm sure the prospective "clients" of any such business wouldn't know that the stuff they are getting is stolen or out of date crap from some random hornbook.
3) I just can't imagine that anyone with an actual 167 anywhere wouldn't have better things to do than earn $10/hour stealing from Lexis for random bumpkin law firms.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: non parata est on February 02, 2009, 04:08:08 PM
Do you really expect to get so many applications that you need to sort them by LSAT score and not give them a fair look?
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: vap on February 02, 2009, 04:29:45 PM
We are a legal services startup founded by two recent Rice graduates -- and we need smart, ambitious PT associates!

This position requires you to help small law firms with research/writing projects or other support tasks -- typical Summer Associate tasks, or even simpler.  You can work from anywhere in the world, as many or as few hours a day as you want -- you just log onto our website, and projects will be waiting for you.  And you get to pick the ones you want to work on!   

Not only will you get paid $25 an hour, but it's an opportunity to build a portfolio of projects, make contacts with firms, and explore different areas of the law.   

You will be an independent contractor and will have to sign a confidentiality agreement.

Here's specifically what we are looking for:

-167 LSAT or better*
-Law firm experience*
-You don't mind competing with others for projects (first come, first serve)
-Availability* (School-year? Summers? Post-graduation?)


Please include descriptions of the * items in the body of your email.  Attach CV. acelawstudents@gmail.com

Bob,

You raise a good point.  Our clients will all be lawyers, who are ultimately responsible for what they do with the research or other work-product they receive from the students.  We will not be offering "legal advice".  Clients will have direct interaction with the students, guiding the project in the directions it needs to go. 

Best,

Will
acelawstudents@gmail.com 

You guys are not lawyers, right?

What is your business name?

What is your fee arrangement with your clients (the firms)?

Do you perform any function other than maintaining the website and matching up clients with students? (ie., setting maximum hours billed or otherwise directing research)?

Are students paid by you or by the firms?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Ricephilx on February 02, 2009, 05:04:37 PM
Vap,

We are not lawyers. Our firm is called Insourcelegal LLC.  Our website is launching in 90 days. 

We charge the clients $50-$60 an hour.  We are the ones paying the students. 

We run the website, write the project management software, market and advertise, screen students, and manage any client-student problems.  The students just log in, do projects, and get a check in the mail.

Best,

Will

 



Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Changed Name on February 02, 2009, 05:15:21 PM
Out of curiosity, have you ever performed any type of legal research?
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Ricephilx on February 02, 2009, 05:25:42 PM
Changed,

I worked for an oil and gas firm as a legal assistant for a year.  This required me to do extensive legal research.  When I noticed that I was getting paid to sit around and do nothing some days, I figured there had to be a better way -- one that would save small firms money while giving them access to more qualified talent -- hence, on-demand legal assistants, who happen to be top law students.   

Best,

Will
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Ricephilx on February 02, 2009, 05:34:53 PM
Lazarus,

If a student associate of ours should choose to use Lexis/Westlaw despite the risks and our discouragement, it would be doubly imprudent of them to use it during summer break. 

Best,

Will
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: nealric on February 02, 2009, 07:23:11 PM
Assuming this is not a flame:

What college were you in at Rice? There is a high likelihood that I at least know people who know you if it was any time in the last 1-4 years.

In any event, I really think your business plan is a bad idea. The fact of the matter is that few law students would be too excited to schlep around the law library instead of using Lexis/Westlaw. Even if that's not the case, you are likely going to get some pretty inefficient/shoddy work, since few law students do much book research anymore. Alternatively, you are going to get people trying to cheat and possibly ending up screwed by Lexis/Westlaw. I know it's not technically your problem, but you could end up with some seriously unhappy campers.

I can understand why the LSAT requirement would vex people. I think you could probably be more expansive without it being difficult. For example, you could say either:

1. Top 10% 1L grades at a ranked school (none of the top schools rank)
OR
2. 167 LSAT
OR
3. T14 School
OR
4. Offer at V100 firm

Wouldn't be tough to filter at all.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Changed Name on February 02, 2009, 08:56:27 PM
I don't even think you need a "filtering" system, because as a poster above mentioned, how many people do you think would even apply for a "job" like this?

No law student is going to trek around in the library and do research (and our library here isn't even up-to-date on all the law around the country; just in our region).

I think it's an interesting idea, and I know that some other students had started something like this a few years ago (they even had a blog, i believe [i read about it, at least]).

Plus, this model doesn't seem like it will hold up.  You already said that the hours will be very few.  The money generated from those hours probably won't make it terribly worth it from a law student.  This also means that if you farm out the work to a law student, it's more than likely that these students will not end up finishing the work.  Or even if they do, they'll just provide shoddy research.  Which of course, the lawyers probably wouldn't use, but they also wouldn't use your services again.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Stole Your Nose! on February 02, 2009, 09:06:55 PM
Also, am pretty sure that no law firm in the country located within 30 miles of a law school is having a problem getting people to intern for free these days.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: TheDudeMan on February 02, 2009, 09:51:00 PM
DudeMan,

Thanks for your input. 

Yes, we realize we may be excluding a wide sector of bright, talented, ambitious students.  Unfortunately, the problem we face is we need a fair standard to compare candidates with high disparities of experience -- it is not that useful to rely on class rank when comparing a 1L to a 3L, for example.  Nor is it especially fair to have a predefined list of law schools, because very talented students go to "lesser" schools for any number of reasons. 

With respect to our prestige, that's not something we will ever worry about.  Our goal is to deliver top service to law firms at an affordable price, and provide a meaningful, flexible PT employment option for current law students. 

Best,

Will



But you realize delivering the service you seek is impossible when you are using a meaningless standard such as the LSAT lol. 
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: nealric on February 02, 2009, 10:00:31 PM
Although I maintain serious doubts about the OP's business model, I am 95% sure he is legit after talking with him via PM.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on February 02, 2009, 10:09:39 PM
Although I maintain serious doubts about the OP's business model, I am 95% sure he is legit after talking with him via PM.

you must be using a loose version of the term "legit".

Similar to that used here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cdk1gwWH-Cg), perhaps?
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: nealric on February 02, 2009, 10:09:52 PM
Legit in the sense that I don't think this is a flame or scam. I think he really is planning to do what he says he is.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Bob Loblaw Esq. on February 03, 2009, 04:09:06 AM


We charge the clients $50-$60 an hour.  We are the ones paying the students. 



even if you offered a quality, reputable service, what small firm would actually pay $50-60/hr for law student research anyway? i would imagine your target clientele probably bills $100/hr or less.  You might find a sucker or two, but I promise you, no reasonable small firm atty would pay $50-60/hr to babysit a law student. 
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: vap on February 03, 2009, 07:04:17 AM
To the OP:  please take all this poo-pooing on your project as constructive criticism.  Most of these posts are coming off as very negative, but I think your idea in general sounds marketable. 

Sure, you might need to iron out some kinks.  I agree with Bob: $50-$60 is a lot for a small firm to pay for research conducted by a law students (which will be less efficient).  You might want to consider billing by the project rather than the hour.  That is, a law firm has a research issue, and they would pay X to have somebody else do it; you farm it out for 33% less (or a larger profit, if the math works).  You could require students to log their hours, too, if the attorneys want this info (for reasonable billing).  Of course, if you've already got firms lined up willing to pay $50-$60/hour for student research, more power to you!

I also think that small firms will be able to hire students directly for nothing or less than $25/hour, so you're best bet would be to focus on small firms in less urban areas (let's say, for example, more than an hour's drive from any law school). 

I've got to agree about LSAT as a selection tool.  The LSAT, combined with UGPA, has a mild correlation with 1L grades.  I don't think there is much else to be gleaned from the LSAT, unless you are thinking that grades will be predictive of research skills.  But then you should just rely on grades rather than LSAT. 
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Stole Your Nose! on February 03, 2009, 07:09:37 AM
Actually, no, this is generally a bad idea.  The only way it works is if students cheat Westlaw or Lexis out of money.  Most attorneys out on their own highly value their reputation; they can't advise their clients based on something that students didn't even shepherdize or do a Lexis search on. I'd rather hire someone directly for cheaper or free and let them use my firm's lexis/westlaw capabilities. Also, the small firms aren't going to get rid of their legal assistants. OP's idea is that they can drop their Legal Ass't, hire his firm and voila! money is saved and money is made!  But sole practitioners with any kind of a business stream have to have legal ass'ts to keep it going.  They'd rather research be done by someone already on salary.

And there will have to be disclaimers all over the place on OP's website.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Ricephilx on February 03, 2009, 08:13:18 AM
Folks,

Thanks for the comments.

1) This is not intended to replace an in-office legal assistant, more a safety valve that allows a lawyer to get help from a smart law student on an as needed basis.  There is no subscription fee or retainer for the client -- it is simply by the hour. 

2) Firms based in India do this exact kind of work, only they do not have a US law education, and they charge $60-70.  Many of these firms are quite successful, and have big name US clients.  Look up "Legal process outsourcing" to learn more. 

3) Firms can pass on fees like this to their clients, as a separate line item.  If for whatever reason the in-office legal assistant is unavailable, or perhaps just not that bright (remember they only make $42k a year on average), the client saves money because they aren't paying for the lawyer to do research or other lower-level legal tasks.

4) There are too many hangups about the Lexis/Westlaw issue.  I'm sure there is a way to do it without lugging around books, and without going to prison. 

Best,

Will
acelawstudents@gmail.com

Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Stole Your Nose! on February 03, 2009, 08:29:59 AM
1) Your target firms will very rarely need "safety valves" that are above and beyond an in-office legal assistant.  This doesn't at all fit with what you described as your motivation ("they were paying me and I only worked sometimes!" = replace you with an as-needed service), and it really exhibits a failure to understand your potential client base. The only thing that you could possibly be offering that they would be willing to pay $50-60/hr for is free Lexis or Westlaw usage.  Also, if I were working for you as an independent contractor, I would undercut you in a heartbeat. Thankfully, I am doing OK and have no need to join a scheme to defraud Lexis or Westlaw or provide shoddy outdated shoestring research to poor firms.

2) The firms in India actually are attracting mega firms with mega cases. You will not get mega firms with mega cases.  A large percentage of the outsourcing is back office functions rather than legal research. You also fundamentally fail to understand the economics of LPO or the big law firm.  Finally, these are lawyers that they are outsourcing to, not legal students.  And these are lawyers who will have access to Lexis or Westlaw, not library books. LPO has salaried employees who bill, and the company provides the overhead expenses, including access to legal research tools.

3) You clearly know absolutely nothing about legal research.  It is shocking that you claim to have worked as a "legal research assistant" without knowing this. Almost all legal research, even statutory construction, will involve case law research. Unless you want it done via google search, which is not a product you can have your independent contractors handing in to anyone and not something anyone would pay for, it has to be done using Lexis or Westlaw. They have a monopoly on legal research for a reason. Flat rate plans (or X # of searches/minutes plans) are available but individual or additional searches can cost hundreds of dollars.

Hope you've got a good lawyer drafting your contracts (or you could just outsource them to law students!!!) because you are exposing yourself to some liability here and lawyers are a very litigious bunch.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Stole Your Nose! on February 03, 2009, 08:43:55 AM
Also, as you probably don't know, your target law student audience ("top law students" -- which does not equal LSAT) makes $3100 a week in the summer and are busting tail during the school year on law review, innocence project, moot court, mock trial, etc. Any student that you need, doesn't need you.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Ricephilx on February 03, 2009, 09:27:54 AM
Stole,

Good comments.  I didn't expect to be getting into the economics of my company here, but you are a smart bunch.

1) a) We don't need firms to use us all the time as a safety valve.  Instead, we need a lot of firms, using us occasionally, perhaps an hour or two a month.  This obviously requires a lot of firms, and a lot of salesmanship -- that's our job. 

b) I see how there could be confusion here, but it actually does fit with my description.  My previous employer could have paid for me to be in his office for only half the time, and used a service like ours on the rare occasions he needed something fast, when I wasn't there.  This obviously will not work with all small firms, but we do not need the business of all small firms. 

c) We are not offering only research.  Anything a lawyer could imagine a law student could be useful for, we can do.  It's up to the clients.  But in the event research is what's needed, our students will add value to the raw research, not just send them some printouts. 

d) Yes, you could put out your own shingle. But will your clients offer you total flexibility of time?  How much time and money do you want to spend attracting and retaining clients?  These obstacles are often prohibitive for a law student with a busy schedule. 

2) Exactly.  We are not doing mega cases for mega firms  -- we are filling in for small firms wherever they need an extra hand.  I made the point to illustrate that if a large US firm is willing to regularly trust an Indian lawyer with an important task, a small firm should be able to occasionally trust a top US law student with a less important task. 

3) I used Lexis and Westlaw all the time.  It is by far the most effective way to do legal research.

4) Many law students have a full slate.  This is why our entire system is based around flexibility for students. 


Please let me address any further questions and concerns you have. 

Best,

Will

Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Stole Your Nose! on February 03, 2009, 09:58:10 AM
Actually, usually the tasks assigned to Indian lawyers could hardly be classified as "important."  It's mainly doc review work.

Quote
But in the event research is what's needed, our students will add value to the raw research, not just send them some printouts. 
Yes. We all understand the concept of writing legal research memos.  However, in order for a student to do this effectively, they will need Lexis or Westlaw.  And they will need to do so more than an attorney who is familiar with the field.  For example, if I got a criminal case in Missouri I may have to 1) familiarize myself with the facts of the case, 2) familiarize myself with Missouri sources, 3) probably pull up a Missouri treatise for an overview, 4) look up the annotated statutes, 5) review recent cases interpreting the statutes, and 6) run a few searches looking for cases with similar fact patterns and issues. THEN you write it up. Honestly, I feel bad for the poor schmuck in Missouri whose lawyer did him the grave disservice of outsourcing the work to a law student who couldn't use Lexis or Westlaw. Any research project of this kind, even for small matters, would require the use of Lexis or Westlaw. 

The point of my comments is that 1) you know that research of any value would require Lexis/Westlaw, 2) you are not providing those research services, 3) you know your "independent" contractors will have to use Lexis/Westlaw to fulfill their project assignments effectively, and 4) you are covering your ass with statements on the message board, but are giving the "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" and you just clearly could care less. 

FWIW, any business plan that involves posting on the Law School Discussion board is going to get trashed by me. But I would have a lot less of a problem with your crappy business plan if it wasn't inherently unethical.  Get some capital and purchase a flat rate Lexis or Westlaw package for use by your contractors.  Or bill your clients for westlaw or lexis time that your contractors spend on the projects. Either way, building stealing into your business plan and exposing your contractors (and clients) to unnecessary risks is pretty dirty. 
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Bob Loblaw Esq. on February 03, 2009, 10:26:19 AM

  For example, if I got a criminal case in Missouri I may have to 1) familiarize myself with the facts of the case, 2) familiarize myself with Missouri sources, 3) probably pull up a Missouri treatise for an overview, 4) look up the annotated statutes, 5) review recent cases interpreting the statutes, and 6) run a few searches looking for cases with similar fact patterns and issues. THEN you write it up. Honestly, I feel bad for the poor schmuck in Missouri whose lawyer did him the grave disservice of outsourcing the work to a law student who couldn't use Lexis or Westlaw. Any research project of this kind, even for small matters, would require the use of Lexis or Westlaw. 


Not only that, even in the most ideal situation (if you had all of the legitimate resources at your disposal), you're still going to have to stick your client with an absurdly inflated bill because it took your 167 lsat law student 10 hrs to do a job that a seasoned criminal atty could do in 2.  A traditional student intern at a firm likely has the majority of his billable hours written off by senior attys who know they can only bill the client for a fraction of the time.  Hell, this happens with newbie associate attys.

look dude, if this isnt a flame, at least recognize that you have a boatload of issues to consider.  if this is a flame, please don't tell me, I'm wicked bored.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Stole Your Nose! on February 03, 2009, 10:30:55 AM
Quote
if this is a flame, please don't tell me, I'm wicked bored.

Exactly. It's great when I have enough fuel to work not just one, but two(!) lists into a post.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Matthies on February 03, 2009, 10:37:09 AM
Vap,

We are not lawyers. Our firm is called Insourcelegal LLC.  Our website is launching in 90 days. 

We charge the clients $50-$60 an hour.  We are the ones paying the students.  

We run the website, write the project management software, market and advertise, screen students, and manage any client-student problems.  The students just log in, do projects, and get a check in the mail.

Best,

Will

 





Will, have you run this business idea by a real lawyer?

Because what you’re doing, sharing in legal fees as non lawyers, could be a violation of the ABA model rules of professional responsibility. I would seriously spend some $ talking with lawyer about this before you start your company and endanger it, and any law students working for you chances at being admitted to practice for ethics violations. Get a lawyer and have them explain explain the implications of rule 5.4 on your business plan.   http://www.abanet.org/cpr/mrpc/rule_5_4.html
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Bob Loblaw Esq. on February 03, 2009, 10:50:18 AM
Vap,

We are not lawyers. Our firm is called Insourcelegal LLC.  Our website is launching in 90 days. 

We charge the clients $50-$60 an hour.  We are the ones paying the students.  

We run the website, write the project management software, market and advertise, screen students, and manage any client-student problems.  The students just log in, do projects, and get a check in the mail.

Best,

Will

 





Will, have you run this business idea by a real lawyer?

Because what you’re doing, sharing in legal fees as non lawyers, could be a violation of the ABA model rules of professional responsibility. I would seriously spend some $ talking with lawyer about this before you start your company and endanger it, and any law students working for you chances at being admitted to practice for ethics violations. Get a lawyer and have them explain explain the implications of rule 5.4 on your business plan.   http://www.abanet.org/cpr/mrpc/rule_5_4.html


as described, i don't think this proposal is unauthorized practice of law / sharing in legal fees etc..(in any event, the model rules dont bind non-lawyer OP)  The ABA has a write up on outsourcing  -  http://www.abanet.org/abanet/media/release/news_release.cfm?releaseid=435
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: vap on February 03, 2009, 11:00:21 AM
Vap,

We are not lawyers. Our firm is called Insourcelegal LLC.  Our website is launching in 90 days.  

We charge the clients $50-$60 an hour.  We are the ones paying the students.  

We run the website, write the project management software, market and advertise, screen students, and manage any client-student problems.  The students just log in, do projects, and get a check in the mail.

Best,

Will

Will, have you run this business idea by a real lawyer?

Because what you’re doing, sharing in legal fees as non lawyers, could be a violation of the ABA model rules of professional responsibility. I would seriously spend some $ talking with lawyer about this before you start your company and endanger it, and any law students working for you chances at being admitted to practice for ethics violations. Get a lawyer and have them explain rule 5.4 to you, then start a different company. http://www.abanet.org/cpr/mrpc/rule_5_4.html

That's why I asked those questions, but upon further reflection I did not respond like you did, Matthies, because I doubt the OP or his independent contractors would get into any trouble.  I don't think the students are providing legal services to non-lawyers.  I don't think the OP would be providing legal services.

Further, the comments to the model rules and state-specific rules (I looked up Texas), indicate that the rule is to benefit the client.  Thus, so long as OP is not impairing the professional judgment of the lawyers, there should be no problem (and they apparently are not because they are being employed by the lawyers).

Also, the OP's business scheme is not revolutionary.  Legal temp agencies and contract lawyer agencies, which employ lawyers and non-lawyers to perform law-related tasks at law firms, including legal research and doc review, are sometimes run by non-lawyers.  I fail to see how OP's business scheme would be in danger when these other agencies have not run into problems.

I think OP could minimize problems for his clients (lawyers), of course, by not charging by the hour.  As Bob suggested, there is no way a small firm would pay $60/hour for a law student to perform research.  A law firm's fee to his/her client must be reasonable.  Even if a lawyer were to pass this fee off directly (charge the client $60/hour for the research), it's likely that the fee would be excessive/unreasonable under Rule 1.5.  This suggestion has nothing to do with Rule 5.4, though, which I guess some people might argue will pose problems for OP, OP's lawyer clients, and the law students.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Matthies on February 03, 2009, 11:12:42 AM
Vap,

We are not lawyers. Our firm is called Insourcelegal LLC.  Our website is launching in 90 days.  

We charge the clients $50-$60 an hour.  We are the ones paying the students.  

We run the website, write the project management software, market and advertise, screen students, and manage any client-student problems.  The students just log in, do projects, and get a check in the mail.

Best,

Will

Will, have you run this business idea by a real lawyer?

Because what you’re doing, sharing in legal fees as non lawyers, could be a violation of the ABA model rules of professional responsibility. I would seriously spend some $ talking with lawyer about this before you start your company and endanger it, and any law students working for you chances at being admitted to practice for ethics violations. Get a lawyer and have them explain rule 5.4 to you, then start a different company. http://www.abanet.org/cpr/mrpc/rule_5_4.html

That's why I asked those questions, but upon further reflection I did not respond like you did, Matthies, because I doubt the OP or his independent contractors would get into any trouble.  I don't think the students are providing legal services to non-lawyers.  I don't think the OP would be providing legal services.

Further, the comments to the model rules and state-specific rules (I looked up Texas), indicate that the rule is to benefit the client.  Thus, so long as OP is not impairing the professional judgment of the lawyers, there should be no problem (and they apparently are not because they are being employed by the lawyers).

Also, the OP's business scheme is not revolutionary.  Legal temp agencies and contract lawyer agencies, which employ lawyers and non-lawyers to perform law-related tasks at law firms, including legal research and doc review, are sometimes run by non-lawyers.  I fail to see how OP's business scheme would be in danger when these other agencies have not run into problems.


The way it appears to me is that the company would be billing clients $50-60 an hour, then paying the students. If not for legal work the students were doing then what?  That $50-60 is for legal fees, that will be passed on the client no? I mean someone is getting billed for the research right? Non-lawyers are charging law firms more money than the lawyers are getting paid, thus pocketing legal fees that eventually get passed on to the client by the firm employing the outsourced lawyers. This is fine if a lawyer runs the company, but as I understand rule 5.4 not if non lawyers run the company. It does not matter if the client is a non lawyer, it matters who is getting part of the legal fees, in this case non lawyers.

As I read the rule there are only four cases in which a lawyer (the firm employing the students here) could share fees with a non-lawyer (the guys running the temp business who are not licensed but are getting a cut of the fees paid to the students, and billed to the clients, as legal fees):

(a) A lawyer or law firm shall not share legal fees with a nonlawyer, except that:

(1) an agreement by a lawyer with the lawyer's firm, partner, or associate may provide for the payment of money, over a reasonable period of time after the lawyer's death, to the lawyer's estate or to one or more specified persons;
(2) a lawyer who purchases the practice of a deceased, disabled, or disappeared lawyer may, pursuant to the provisions of Rule 1.17, pay to the estate or other representative of that lawyer the agreed-upon purchase price;
(3) a lawyer or law firm may include nonlawyer employees in a compensation or retirement plan, even though the plan is based in whole or in part on a profit-sharing arrangement; and
(4) a lawyer may share court-awarded legal fees with a nonprofit organization that employed, retained or recommended employment of the lawyer in the matter.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Matthies on February 03, 2009, 11:18:49 AM
Vap,

We are not lawyers. Our firm is called Insourcelegal LLC.  Our website is launching in 90 days. 

We charge the clients $50-$60 an hour.  We are the ones paying the students.  

We run the website, write the project management software, market and advertise, screen students, and manage any client-student problems.  The students just log in, do projects, and get a check in the mail.

Best,

Will

 





Will, have you run this business idea by a real lawyer?

Because what you’re doing, sharing in legal fees as non lawyers, could be a violation of the ABA model rules of professional responsibility. I would seriously spend some $ talking with lawyer about this before you start your company and endanger it, and any law students working for you chances at being admitted to practice for ethics violations. Get a lawyer and have them explain explain the implications of rule 5.4 on your business plan.   http://www.abanet.org/cpr/mrpc/rule_5_4.html


as described, i don't think this proposal is unauthorized practice of law / sharing in legal fees etc..(in any event, the model rules dont bind non-lawyer OP)  The ABA has a write up on outsourcing  -  http://www.abanet.org/abanet/media/release/news_release.cfm?releaseid=435


There are two key parts to the opinion that you posted:

U.S. lawyers are free to outsource legal work, including to lawyers or nonlawyers outside the country, if they adhere to ethics rules requiring competence, supervision, protection of confidential information, reasonable fees and not assisting unauthorized practice of law.

Regarding fees, the opinion says outsourcing lawyers may pass along to the client the costs of using the service provider, including a reasonable allocation of associated overhead expenses, but “no markup is permitted.”  The committee also acknowledges it lacks authority to express an opinion about whether any particular service provider is engaging in unauthorized practice of law, but cautions that if the service provider is found to be not authorized to practice law, and the outsourcing lawyer facilitated that violation, the outsourcing lawyer will have violated ethical rules.


As far as the OP is concerned unless he is offshoring his biz, (the LLC part points to on shore) and not marking up his $50-60 (which what would be the point if he's not) then this opinion does not apply, no?


Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Bob Loblaw Esq. on February 03, 2009, 11:31:02 AM
the write up was just an example of legal outsourcing and how it may be done ethically.

i dont think the write up, or model rules for that matter,  applies to OP at all because he is not a lawyer.  A state's adoption of the rules are only binding on lawyers.  The lawyers in which OP consults with might have concerns with sharing legal fees/unauthorized practice etc... which may ultimately determine whether they work with OP.  Someone else can respond to this, its been a while since PR.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Matthies on February 03, 2009, 11:38:28 AM
the write up was just an example of legal outsourcing and how it may be done ethically.

i dont think the write up, or model rules for that matter,  applies to OP at all because he is not a lawyer.  A state's adoption of the rules are only binding on lawyers.  The lawyers in which OP consults with might have concerns with sharing legal fees/unauthorized practice etc... which may ultimately determine whether they work with OP.  Someone else can respond to this, its been a while since PR.

hence my point, if you do as lawyer then your sharing fees with non lawyers in which case you might have some ethical concerns, hence why I would run my biz model by a alwyer first before I started recuiting talent. But what do I know, I did not get a 167 on the LSAT  :P
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Ricephilx on February 03, 2009, 11:54:27 AM
Thanks for the replies.

Regarding the high hourly fees, remember, our service is intended for occasional use only, when lawyers are willing to pay extra for quick help they can trust.  We may adopt a multi-tiered system if we sense there is a demand for more-than-occasional usage. 

Re: per project vs. hourly rate:  We have a hybrid system.  It is intended to keep costs down and quality up:

When submitting projects, lawyers provide a description of the project and a limit, in hours, of how long the project should take.  Being lawyers, our clients are in a good position to accurately estimate the time a law student should take for a given project.  But if our students think a given limit is unreasonable, they are able to leave feedback on the project, and the client may raise the limit, or withdraw the project altogether -- but if a student thinks they can do it within the initial limit, they pick up the project on the spot.  This is the "first come, first serve" system I alluded to.  It is a free market competition.  If the student is unable to get it done satisfactorily within the time allotted, they have to finish the project to the client's satisfaction without getting paid for the additional hours -- if they want to remain our associate.  The client can also willingly add hours to the project if he wants to expand its scope, in which case, the student gets paid for the additional hours. 

With respect to the ABA statement, here is what I have told our future client-lawyers:

-We do not provide legal services, in the formal definition of the term, but help you provide legal services. The work we do can be thought of that of an uncertified paralegal.  In this sense, we are non-lawyers who have independent contracts with other non-lawyers.   
-You directly supervise all the work-product of our students.
-You have direct access to them when they are working on your project. 
-What you do with the work-product of our students is your business. We have no contact with your clients. 
-If and how you pass along our fee to your clients is up to your discretion, like it is with your own in-office legal assistants/paralegals. 


Thanks,

Will 

Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Matthies on February 03, 2009, 12:07:05 PM
 

With respect to the ABA statement, here is what I have told our future client-lawyers:

-We do not provide legal services, in the formal definition of the term, but help you provide legal services. The work we do can be thought of that of an uncertified paralegal.  In this sense, we are non-lawyers who have independent contracts with other non-lawyers.   
...

-If and how you pass along our fee to your clients is up to your discretion, like it is with your own in-office legal assistants/paralegals. 


Thanks,

Will 



There is a difference, precisely because of this rule, in how you bill for support staff and how you bill for legal fees attributable to lawyers. Law students, often times employed as “legal clerks” are the one exception to this rule. If not, it would be much more profitable to just have all legal work done by paralegals, which of course you can’t because of that pesky no practicing without a license thingy.  I just don’t see how passing the buck this way and saying the risk is on you not us is going to help your case or encourage folks to hire you. 
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Bob Loblaw Esq. on February 03, 2009, 12:12:33 PM

Regarding the high hourly fees, remember, our service is intended for occasional use only, when lawyers are willing to pay extra for quick help they can trust. 

If a lawyer is looking to pay extra for quick help he can trust, he will hire an atty/staff member who is qualified to do the work quickly in a trustworthy manner, not pay extra for a law student who takes significantly longer and must be babysat.

Quote

When submitting projects, lawyers provide a description of the project and a limit, in hours, of how long the project should take.  Being lawyers, our clients are in a good position to accurately estimate the time a law student should take for a given project.  But if our students think a given limit is unreasonable, they are able to leave feedback on the project, and the client may raise the limit, or withdraw the project altogether -- but if a student thinks they can do it within the initial limit, they pick up the project on the spot.  This is the "first come, first serve" system I alluded to.  It is a free market competition.  If the student is unable to get it done satisfactorily within the time allotted, they have to finish the project to the client's satisfaction without getting paid for the additional hours -- if they want to remain our associate.  The client can also willingly add hours to the project if he wants to expand its scope, in which case, the student gets paid for the additional hours. 

lol.  every lawyer knows that it will take a law student longer; accordingly, no lawyer who want fast and reliable service will have any incentive to use this service.  There's your free market.    also, no law student, aside from the suckers who sign up, will stick around and agree to finish a project to the client's satisfaction without getting paid.  are you serious?

Quote
  
-You directly supervise all the work-product of our students.
-You have direct access to them when they are working on your project. 

again, pay to babysit?


Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: vap on February 03, 2009, 02:52:41 PM
Quote
When submitting projects, lawyers provide a description of the project and a limit, in hours, of how long the project should take.  Being lawyers, our clients are in a good position to accurately estimate the time a law student should take for a given project.  But if our students think a given limit is unreasonable, they are able to leave feedback on the project, and the client may raise the limit, or withdraw the project altogether -- but if a student thinks they can do it within the initial limit, they pick up the project on the spot.  This is the "first come, first serve" system I alluded to.  It is a free market competition.  If the student is unable to get it done satisfactorily within the time allotted, they have to finish the project to the client's satisfaction without getting paid for the additional hours -- if they want to remain our associate.  The client can also willingly add hours to the project if he wants to expand its scope, in which case, the student gets paid for the additional hours. 

lol.  every lawyer knows that it will take a law student longer; accordingly, no lawyer who want fast and reliable service will have any incentive to use this service.  There's your free market.    also, no law student, aside from the suckers who sign up, will stick around and agree to finish a project to the client's satisfaction without getting paid.  are you serious?

This aspect doesn't seem like such a big deal.  Essentially, it's a flat rate system.  "I pay you $25/hour, not to exceed 6 hours of work."  This happens in practice; if not formally, then informally when a partner (or sole practitioner) decides to bill for fewer hours than were actually worked to appease a client. 

Also, the $X/hour not to exceed Y hours is exactly how some prepaid legal plans operate.  These are run by nonlawyers, and the lawyers who actually perform the work are still bound by their duty to the client to provide zealous representation (regardless of whether they are getting paid).  But yeah, I definitely see your point that law students might not take such a responsibility seriously (because they don't have a client and their not representing anyone; thus no duty to client).

But again, what a lawyer might want to do instead is anticipate that it will take about 6 hours of work and just offer the "project" for $150.  That way, students don't feel gypped when they earn $150 in the first 6 hours and $0 in the next 4 hours on a 10-hour project.  But that's life, especially for any solo or small firm lawyers starting right after school.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Ricephilx on February 03, 2009, 04:26:33 PM
Folks,

Re: Lexis and Westlaw

Loislaw is available to law students for free, summers included, until 6 months after graduation.  You get access to their comprehensive National Collection, described here:  http://www.loislaw.com/product/subscriptions/national.htm (http://www.loislaw.com/product/subscriptions/national.htm)

It IS permitted for use for non-academic purposes. In fact, since they are trying to gain market share, they encourage you to use it during your summer job.  You should be able to get a username and password through your law library. 

Link to an instant trial subscription, if you want to see how it looks and works: http://ecom.loislaw.com/freetrial/index.htp?target=demo/trialpage.htp&access=LLDEMO (http://ecom.loislaw.com/freetrial/index.htp?target=demo/trialpage.htp&access=LLDEMO)

The trial doesn't include all the features, like GlobalCite.  Here are GlobalCite's capabilities for your review:  http://www.loislaw.com/product/information/research/tools/globalcite.htm (http://www.loislaw.com/product/information/research/tools/globalcite.htm)

It's clearly has some weaknesses. It is not as good as Lexis or Westlaw in terms of search sophistication, nor does it provide editorial enhancements or foreign law/treaties.  But I've never used it; I'm interested if actual work can be done with it.  Your expert feedback would be especially appreciated. 

Thanks,

Will   




Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: DrLazarus on February 03, 2009, 08:10:53 PM
This idea, if not flame, is a hot mess.

BTW, is using the board for this purpose (soliciting law students to do some, at best, unorthodox work) even permitted?
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Thistle on February 03, 2009, 10:17:26 PM
by god, who WOULDNT jump at this opportunity!

here's my resume:

top 20% of class
will graduate this may with honors
four top papers
published article in (mystate) bar association real estate publication
edited book on international criminal law, publishing credits
national article pending publication in (anotherstate) journal
won regional moot court tournament, best oralist, best brief
placed quarter-finals national moot court tournament
won civil rights case in federal court
won civil rights case in (mystate) court
won appeal to worker's comp commission
won two appeals to court of veteran's claims
won civil rights appeal before (mystate) supreme court


oh wait, wait.....sorry, my 2006 lsat doesnt meet your requirements.

nevermind.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Stole Your Nose! on February 03, 2009, 10:30:28 PM
Clearly you are unfit to Google legal things on the web. How did you even find your way to this discussion board???
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: TimMitchell on February 04, 2009, 12:15:01 AM
by god, who WOULDNT jump at this opportunity!

here's my resume:

top 20% of class
will graduate this may with honors
four top papers
published article in (mystate) bar association real estate publication
edited book on international criminal law, publishing credits
national article pending publication in (anotherstate) journal
won regional moot court tournament, best oralist, best brief
placed quarter-finals national moot court tournament
won civil rights case in federal court
won civil rights case in (mystate) court
won appeal to worker's comp commission
won two appeals to court of veteran's claims
won civil rights appeal before (mystate) supreme court


oh wait, wait.....sorry, my 2006 lsat doesnt meet your requirements.

nevermind.

Didn't you realize in 2006 that the LSAT would determine your entire future? Look at your now, you aren't even qualified for part time virtual legal research companies that advertise and hire annoymously on internet message boards.

LOL- Career Fail!
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Thistle on February 04, 2009, 06:32:37 AM
damn.


i guess the only option less is hooking or robbing 7-11s
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: linquest on February 05, 2009, 01:44:42 PM
damn.


i guess the only option less is hooking or robbing 7-11s

Don't be so down on yourself.  There's also stripping- not a crime and you might get health insurance to deal with the STDs.
Title: Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
Post by: Matthies on February 05, 2009, 01:53:14 PM
damn.


i guess the only option less is hooking or robbing 7-11s

Don't be so down on yourself.  There's also stripping- not a crime and you might get health insurance to deal with the STDs.

(http://www.chunkypop.com/m_pictures/the-funny.jpg)