Law School Discussion

Law Students => Incoming 1Ls => Topic started by: ,.,.,.;.,.,. on January 26, 2009, 05:27:37 PM

Title: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: ,.,.,.;.,.,. on January 26, 2009, 05:27:37 PM
 ???

At my school, nobody seems worried in the least, despite the fact that I've met a few 2Ls without offers.

Are there tensions I'm missing beneath the surface?  What about at your school?  Is the whole "stressing out about the economy" an online LSD/xoxo thing?  It doesn't seem material IRL.  People look at me strangely when I talk about the possibility of not getting BigLaw.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: AmyWaxFanClubPresident on January 26, 2009, 05:41:47 PM
No, there are definitely less 2L summer jobs out there this year.  The economy is having a huge effect on biglaw (beyond just firm dissolutions). On the other hand, why worry if you are a 1L?  Not much you can do but try to get good grades this year which is what 1Ls tend to try to do anyway.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: finderskeepers on January 26, 2009, 05:52:58 PM
False - plenty of people here are worried.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: th0409 on January 26, 2009, 05:57:02 PM
???

At my school, nobody seems worried in the least, despite the fact that I've met a few 2Ls without offers.

Are there tensions I'm missing beneath the surface?  What about at your school?  Is the whole "stressing out about the economy" an online LSD/xoxo thing?  It doesn't seem material IRL.  People look at me strangely when I talk about the possibility of not getting BigLaw.

I think law students aren't worried about the economy for the same reason undergrads/grad students aren't worried. It's because our entire lives we've been taught that education brings opportunity. And the higher the degree the more opportunity. Of course students at top law programs have been programmed to be immune from such silly concepts as economic downturn and recession. It doesn't apply (lol)!

Granted, I think there may be some false sense of hope for some. Everyone is not going to get the 6-figure big law job or the job of their dreams whatever it may be. But also, the economy is every shifting and constantly changing. what holds true this year may not be true next year. people freak out because they've stopped giving new associates big bonuses--that's a reasonable cut back in order to keep the associates they have and to hire new one the next year.

The world will continue to revolve and law firms, non-for profits, public interest, big law will all continue to need lawyers. There will be jobs so there's no reason to panic.
The question is will you take the job?
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: Eggshell Shin Vosburg on January 26, 2009, 06:00:47 PM
False - plenty of people here are worried.

Law students are worried about the angle the sun comes up, a pebble in the road, etc. Chicken Little might be an alpha male in law school.

Yeah, the 1Ls I know are worried.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: Stole Your Nose! on January 26, 2009, 06:46:53 PM
I am hoping fears about the economy have something to do with the crazy annoyingness of this year's 1L class. This year's class at my school sucks. 
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: ,.,.,.;.,.,. on January 26, 2009, 07:00:52 PM
False - plenty of people here are worried.

Like?  Feel free to PM.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: finderskeepers on January 26, 2009, 07:24:17 PM
Well, I think that in the short term, people are very worried that the economy is going to prevent them from getting a 1L summer job.

In terms of biglaw long term, maybe people are just thinking that they're better positioned than most by being at U of C.  I think most people realize that biglaw is in trouble, but whether or not they're worried about their own personal chances to get biglaw I'm not sure.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: finderskeepers on January 26, 2009, 07:52:10 PM
In terms of biglaw long term, maybe people are just thinking that they're better positioned than most by being at U of C. 

they are, much like the people on the upper decks of the titanic.


hahaha
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on January 26, 2009, 08:26:04 PM
crossing my fingers the p.i. market demand stays constant.

i've heard rumblings that our p.i. kids are struggling. also, i don't know why you'd think that funding and competition for these jobs wouldn't be affected by this mess.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on January 26, 2009, 08:32:19 PM
crossing my fingers the p.i. market demand stays constant.

i've heard rumblings that our p.i. kids are struggling. also, i don't know why you'd think that funding and competition for these jobs wouldn't be affected by this mess.

because i predict countercyclical government spending, on different priorities set by a new, more-social-justice-oriented administration. i might be wrong, but i think it's not a bad prediction.

well, good luck with that i guess.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: 3-Elle on January 26, 2009, 08:33:51 PM
I'm glad someone brought this topic up. I have been amazed at how little my classmates seem to notice or care about the economy right now. When I talk about how important grades will be for OCI in this economy, people look at me like I'm crazy and say something like "oh we're at a top 25 school, we'll be fine. as long was we get at least B's we'll get a good job". Tons of people I know here haven't even submitted a single resume or cover letter anywhere. It's ridiculous. I can't believe the lack of panic. I'm freaking out. But that may just be me  ;)
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on January 26, 2009, 08:44:00 PM
crossing my fingers the p.i. market demand stays constant.

i've heard rumblings that our p.i. kids are struggling. also, i don't know why you'd think that funding and competition for these jobs wouldn't be affected by this mess.

because i predict countercyclical government spending, on different priorities set by a new, more-social-justice-oriented administration. i might be wrong, but i think it's not a bad prediction.

well, good luck with that i guess.

as long as the federal government continues to tax at the rates they do, they can afford it. you don't think obama, the former constitutional law lecturer and community organizer, would want to make sure p.i. legal services are funded?

well, i suppose it in part depends what you're defining as p.i., but many p.i. positions aren't tied to federal money. Even if those that are tied to that funding are aggressively funded, or federal money goes to some that haven't been federally funded in the past, decreased availability of those that aren't will probably push people towards those that are. Miss P or others may be able to speak more particularly towards this, but that's my general impression of what's going on.

also, i don't know that i agree with your "the government can totally afford it" premise, but, you know, whatevs.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: ,.,.,.;.,.,. on January 27, 2009, 10:49:48 AM
I'm glad someone brought this topic up. I have been amazed at how little my classmates seem to notice or care about the economy right now. When I talk about how important grades will be for OCI in this economy, people look at me like I'm crazy and say something like "oh we're at a top 25 school, we'll be fine. as long was we get at least B's we'll get a good job". Tons of people I know here haven't even submitted a single resume or cover letter anywhere. It's ridiculous. I can't believe the lack of panic. I'm freaking out. But that may just be me  ;)

Are you trying to tell me that the four firms from our city coming for Spring OCI aren't each going to hire 50 of us?

Believe it or not, they usually cap it at 40.

 ::)

I see the same type of b.s. at my school.  I thought that everyone read xoxo/ATL and had a general, albeit pessimistic, sense of how these things work, but delusion and denial are pretty rampant.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: SplorkyFish on January 27, 2009, 01:15:30 PM


I see the same type of b.s. at my school.  I thought that everyone read xoxo/ATL and had a general, albeit pessimistic, sense of how these things work, but delusion and denial are pretty rampant.

You get once concession, Freely: I think the economy will matter a lot for 1L jobs.  However, 1L jobs barely matter at all, long term.  When I was tossing out wacky ideas for summer work, my career coach told me "there is virtually no such thing as a bad career move in the 1L summer."  So I don't see a point in getting too worried about that.

As for the kids in our class, if the economy gets so bad that we can't get a job out of U of C law, then there's no way most of us would have been able to hold down a job under any circumstances.  In a drawn out depression, Debt + JD = no debt + no JD, because nobody can find work and everyone loses all their money.  But the JD might be nice on the upswing.

Alternatively, probably the economy won't get grinding depression bad. In that case, must of us will still be able to find a pretty decent job.  Sure, we it might be harder to choose the exact firm, but we'll make a ton of money and have a choice of several very nice cities.  Heaven forbid that a few narrow-minded drones have to learn that there are about 10-20 other cities in this country with just as much to offer in terms of quality distractions as NYC, and dozens with more to offer in terms of quality of life.  So I don't see what I should be so concerned about. 

The economy's gonna go up and down throughout my lifetime. That's just the way things work.  My JD will help me stay afloat a little bit better both ways.  As a person with no dependents, I'm just not seeing a good reason to freak out just because there's a downturn coming up.  This is just about the best time for me to life through a downturn.  If I had a family to support AND went to a school with worse job prospects, I'd be a lot more worried.  But most people my class don't have families, so why should they get worked up?  Why not worry about global warming or anything else?  I'm way more worried about global warming than I am about the fact that I might not be able to specifically choose the exact office at the exact firm that I would exactly like to work at as a pre-2L with little knowledge of the law, the different cities I could work at, or life at different firms besides what I read online. 

Careers take a long time to play out dude.  It's just not worth getting so worked up over your pole position, should you (misguidedly) choose to view your life as a race.

PS.

"i read it on xoxo" is a reason to disbelieve something.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: SamE397 on January 27, 2009, 01:47:02 PM
I'm still in my last year of undergrad but I can tell you that I'm not terribly worried because

1. What ever my job prospects are when I graduate they'll be better than they are now. I have a very smart friend who recently graduated from my undergrad with a 4. who can't find a job and another friend who graduated last year who is not quite as smart but an incredibly hard worker and really passionate about what they  do who's making ten bucks an hour without benefits.

2. I really don't understand the sort of it's not worth it if I can't make 6 figures right away hysteria that is all over these boards. If I can make a lot of money that's great but personally would be happy making 50-70k at a small firm. I'm not going to law school because I think law is the best way to become rich and if that's why your doing it honestly if your not in a T-14 school I say do something else. There's much less challenging ways to get rich especially if you have good technical skills. I don't think it's horrible to have a slightly above average salary if you're doing something you love.       
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: nealric on January 27, 2009, 01:55:27 PM
Quote
If I can make a lot of money that's great but personally would be happy making 50-70k at a small firm.

Would you be happy making 35k at a small firm with 150k in loans? Because that's the situation some people find themselves in.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: SamE397 on January 27, 2009, 03:29:03 PM
Quote
If I can make a lot of money that's great but personally would be happy making 50-70k at a small firm.

Would you be happy making 35k at a small firm with 150k in loans? Because that's the situation some people find themselves in.
Honestly, if that was the only kind of job I could get I'd work with it. My father got an MBA in accounting from a third-rate school. When he graduated, he was making 8.5 an hour in the early nineties, after he got a few years work experience and a CPA job opportunities really opened up. He still doesn't make an insanely large amount of money  his salary is well above average though and he's financially secure.

As for the debt part I don't know how to answer that because I'm not going to have that much debt.     
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: SamE397 on January 27, 2009, 03:58:46 PM
As for the debt part I don't know how to answer that because I'm not going to have that much debt.     

well then that's why you don't understand the hysteria.
No, this is specifically about not getting a biglaw position right out of school. Look at what the original poster and other people have said. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with wanting to make a lot of money or that people shouldn't consider debt or target for biglaw but if you're pursuing law just to make money I don't think you're in the right profession.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: IPFreely1701 on January 27, 2009, 04:12:09 PM
As for the debt part I don't know how to answer that because I'm not going to have that much debt.     

well then that's why you don't understand the hysteria.

Proposed solution: poor people stop attending law school.

Seriously. Don't tell me that these swarms of reasonably bright (vel non) 20-somethings didn't realize the risk of loading up with 6-figures worth of debt prior to securing gainful employment.

Personally, I think most people on this thread are overshooting on the extent of the recession (which is a commonly observed behavior after fallouts). The class that is MOST screwed? The 2009s. Expect a wave of offer rescinds this spring. I imagine that there will be a recovery by the beginning of 2010. It may not be a boom (that's a whole 'nother ball of wax that economists are worried about) but it's doubtful that current 2Ls are going to be hit that hard; same is true to a greater extent for current 1Ls.

But say that that doesn't happen. Say that things stay in the shitter. Well, guess what Chachi, that's the price you pay for debt loading yourself. No one forced you to come to ls; the cost was apparent upfront; firms don't pretend to hire you on anything but an at will basis; 6-figure jobs don't grow on trees

Hate to be harsh, but a self-inflicted 'hysteria' is hard to sympathize with.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: SamE397 on January 27, 2009, 04:18:02 PM
if you're pursuing law just to make money I don't think you're in the right profession.

why not?  because you can make more money elsewhere?  what if one wants to make money but is somewhat risk-averse?
I'm not saying law isn't the best way to make money for some people but in general I think you have a better or equal shot at making a lot of money being an entrepreneur or getting an MBA and a better shot at becoming rich if you're a doctor or medical professional. Of course, if you're someone who went to harvard and can land a 150k+ salary right out of school than the general rules don't apply.

Furthermore, even among the people who go to law school and land high salary jobs many of them are miserable. I knew a guy who was very bright and worked his way up to partner then quit and started a construction business. He was well qualified to be a lawyer but I could tell you the first time I met him that he'd probably be miserable being in an office for 8-10 hours a day he was just that kind of person.

Law isn't a horrible way to make money but there's ways that are probably easier and definitely less stressful and risky if that's your only goal.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: clairel on January 28, 2009, 03:10:29 PM
As for the debt part I don't know how to answer that because I'm not going to have that much debt.     

well then that's why you don't understand the hysteria.

Proposed solution: poor people stop attending law school.

Seriously. Don't tell me that these swarms of reasonably bright (vel non) 20-somethings didn't realize the risk of loading up with 6-figures worth of debt prior to securing gainful employment.

Personally, I think most people on this thread are overshooting on the extent of the recession (which is a commonly observed behavior after fallouts). The class that is MOST screwed? The 2009s. Expect a wave of offer rescinds this spring. I imagine that there will be a recovery by the beginning of 2010. It may not be a boom (that's a whole 'nother ball of wax that economists are worried about) but it's doubtful that current 2Ls are going to be hit that hard; same is true to a greater extent for current 1Ls.

But say that that doesn't happen. Say that things stay in the shitter. Well, guess what Chachi, that's the price you pay for debt loading yourself. No one forced you to come to ls; the cost was apparent upfront; firms don't pretend to hire you on anything but an at will basis; 6-figure jobs don't grow on trees

Hate to be harsh, but a self-inflicted 'hysteria' is hard to sympathize with.

i actually disagree pretty strongly with this. revoking post-graduation employment offers is tantamount to OCI suicide at a school in the future; i know most of the 2Ls at my school didn't interview with firms that only hired half (or less) of their 2L summer class or something. most firms are sucking it up, employing all their 3L offerees, and cutting down on the 2010 summer class (for the record, while there's been some talk on ATL about firms rescinding offers if 2Ls don't accept right away, i haven't heard of one firm revoking a post-graduation offer).

again, this may just be wishful thinking on my part, but i'm pretty sure it's backed by the evidence.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: Eggshell Shin Vosburg on January 30, 2009, 08:20:26 PM
crossing my fingers the p.i. market demand stays constant.

i've heard rumblings that our p.i. kids are struggling. also, i don't know why you'd think that funding and competition for these jobs wouldn't be affected by this mess.

because i predict countercyclical government spending, on different priorities set by a new, more-social-justice-oriented administration. i might be wrong, but i think it's not a bad prediction.

well, good luck with that i guess.

as long as the federal government continues to tax at the rates they do, they can afford it. you don't think obama, the former constitutional law lecturer and community organizer, would want to make sure p.i. legal services are funded?

Most of the PI jobs are funded at the state and local levels. State and local budgets are NIGHTMARES right now. There are a ton of hiring freezes on for full time jobs at PD offices, DAs, etc. I have friends that are recent grads and 3Ls trying to get these jobs right now, and that's a pretty awful job market. The federal government is pretty much immune from this, and I think you'll see an uptick in jobs there as a very pro-regulation administration will need to oversee these regulations, but overall full time PI job opening are hurting. Also, non-profit donations are down everywhere.

If you don't believe me, take a look at the 20K job cuts announced by Mayor Bloomberg today, or the multiple states (CA, IL, etc.) with high profile crippling budget deficits.

This shouldn't really affect summer job prospects at these jobs (these are unpaid internships), and may actually increase the number of summer slots available. However, full time prospects are awful.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: Majmun on January 31, 2009, 04:49:00 AM

but overall full time PI job opening are hurting. Also, non-profit donations are down everywhere.


Yep

Non-profits are going to take the biggest hit of all, not only are donations down, their endowments just got murdered.   The ACLU just laid of 10% of it's work force. I'm amazed at how many of my peers think that PI is going to be okay in this economy.  Unicorns don't fart cash.

Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: El_Che on January 31, 2009, 09:48:08 AM
I'm a 1L. I'm worried about the economy. That is all.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: TTom on January 31, 2009, 10:00:53 AM
I'm glad someone brought this topic up. I have been amazed at how little my classmates seem to notice or care about the economy right now. When I talk about how important grades will be for OCI in this economy, people look at me like I'm crazy and say something like "oh we're at a top 25 school, we'll be fine. as long was we get at least B's we'll get a good job". Tons of people I know here haven't even submitted a single resume or cover letter anywhere. It's ridiculous. I can't believe the lack of panic. I'm freaking out. But that may just be me  ;)

I think your classmates are oblivious to reality. Although I only go to a tt, I'd say only 25% of my 2L class has paying jobs lined up for next summer. Law is not what it used to be, especially in this economy.

ps The good news is that your self-assured (smug?) cohorts will be way behind the curve when it comes to getting employment.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: Kevin. on January 31, 2009, 10:35:46 AM
Not everyone prefers to exercise their neuroses out loud.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: dischord on January 31, 2009, 11:10:06 AM
Not everyone prefers to exercise their neuroses out loud.

Ha, touché.

And yeah, Freely, so what if we're all screwed?  What's the point of wringing our hands about it now? 

If you were a 0L, this might reasonably fit into your calculus about when or whether to attend law school, or whether to focus more on scholarship offers than prestige.  But we all made this decision before things looked quite so dire, and now we're stuck here.  I mean, sure, you might decide to drop out if you ended up below some arbitrary GPA where you feel like you're no longer 100% guaranteed employment, but then where would you be?  40K in debt with a year of law school under your belt IN THIS ECONOMY.  THAT would be what bad job prospects would look like. 

Anyway, bad economies have happened before and they'll happen again, and lawyers have lived to tell of it.  Crap, I watched my dad graduate law school in a huge recession with median grades from a T25 (quelle horreur!) and no job and a family to support.  We lived. 
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: ,.,.,.;.,.,. on January 31, 2009, 11:33:01 AM
Not everyone prefers to exercise their neuroses out loud.

We're not talking about that.  We're talking about talking about how we're all going to be fine and everybody. gets. a. job!
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: sheltron5000 on January 31, 2009, 12:18:42 PM
Like, OMG, guys! The economy is bad!? how can that affect me?!
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: seatochitown on January 31, 2009, 12:48:56 PM
You're just talking to the wrong 1Ls, Freely.  The economy is clearly having an effect on how many of us are getting firm jobs this summer--people are not oblivious. But what's the use in freaking out about it? I was on much more perilous ground in my former line of work, and I didn't have much trouble getting a job (albeit unpaid) lined up for this summer.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: Luxhx77 on February 03, 2009, 08:42:29 PM
I think 2009 and 2010 grads are in much much worse shape than 2011 kids.  Hopefully there will be some recovery is 2010.

That being said... I wouldnt worry so much about the debt.  I am on scholarship and was looking at getting out of school with no debt, but now I am thinking it might just be better to take some loans out, live decently... maybe buy a car with my savings.

We are headed for some MASSIVE inflation...  that 150k in debt will seem like nothing in 5 years.  If anything we should feel lucky that we are able to be loaned money right now.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: Luxhx77 on February 03, 2009, 08:52:42 PM
Everyone's income will eventually catch up.  That is what the "stimulus" is all about.  Create inflation and pass out the money.  The main goal is to make $500k houses reasonable for the average worker so they don't ditch their homes.  You can't do that unless the average worker is making 100-150k a year.

Seriously, the ones who are screwed are those in their 40s and 50's who are in their prime earning years.  They are the ones who will be hardest hit and deserve the sympathy.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: Stole Your Nose! on February 03, 2009, 09:01:45 PM
Quote
The main goal is to make $500k houses reasonable for the average worker so they don't ditch their homes.

This is not the main goal.  There are better and easier ways of dealing with negative equity.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: Talk Is Cheap on February 06, 2009, 06:49:13 PM
Nobody here seems worried...mostly because they're a bunch of punks who never had a real job in the first place and are thus willfully ignorant of how life works.

That and all of the profs and career center people are telling them that by the time we graduate the economy will have turned around. Or, better yet, (and this is my favorite line), "the new administration is going to create all kinds of new regulations that will increase demand for lawyers." Hoy-oh!

What, me worry?
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: XxWaitlistedxX on February 09, 2009, 03:12:01 PM
I'm not worried at all.  In fact I'm gonna max out my student loans and borrow as much money as anyone is dumb enough to lend me at a low interest rate.  After the collapse of the dollar, most of my debt will be inflated away and we all get a near-free ride.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: sheltron5000 on February 09, 2009, 03:28:01 PM
I'm not worried at all.  In fact I'm gonna max out my student loans and borrow as much money as anyone is dumb enough to lend me at a low interest rate.  After the collapse of the dollar, most of my debt will be inflated away and we all get a near-free ride.

NICE.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: Tetris on February 14, 2009, 11:47:47 PM
I *&^% my pants everytime I log on to ATL or read the WSJ.  Seriously.  The bad economic news has forced me to invest in adult diapers.
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: Talk Is Cheap on February 24, 2009, 08:30:37 PM
Well, sh*t, Ben Bernanke told me today that the economy is going to turn around in 2010, so obviously this means everything is going to be just peachy. NY to 190!  ;)
Title: Re: 1Ls Don't Seem Worried about Economy. Why?
Post by: sheltron5000 on February 25, 2009, 03:13:24 PM
I *&^% my pants everytime I log on to ATL or read the WSJ.  Seriously.  The bad economic news has forced me to invest in adult diapers.

OOOOHHH! Who makes depends? I know where to put my money!