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Law Students => Job Search => Topic started by: rucoach on November 20, 2008, 10:52:40 AM

Title: LSAT on resume
Post by: rucoach on November 20, 2008, 10:52:40 AM
I know the overwhelming conventional wisdom on putting your LSAT score on your resume is HELL NO! but hear me out.  I have a 180 and given that we have no grades or anything to put on our Dec. 1 resumes, would putting this on my resume still be off-putting and a deal breaker or a decent way to differentiate myself until I have actual law school grades to use.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: botbot on November 20, 2008, 11:21:37 AM
I have seen it done successfully on an EE resume near UGPA.

In fact, I think a subtle use could work on most 1L resumes.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: rucoach on November 20, 2008, 11:24:26 AM
What's an EE resume?
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: TheDudeMan on November 20, 2008, 11:29:01 AM
Nobody cares about your LSAT score anymore LoL.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: dashrashi on November 20, 2008, 02:27:50 PM
I know the overwhelming conventional wisdom on putting your LSAT score on your resume is HELL NO! but hear me out.  I have a 180 and given that we have no grades or anything to put on our Dec. 1 resumes, would putting this on my resume still be off-putting and a deal breaker or a decent way to differentiate myself until I have actual law school grades to use.

Off-putting and deal breaker.  Do NOT do it.

Cosigned with even more force. I'm shuddering just thinking about it.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: rucoach on November 20, 2008, 03:20:56 PM
OK, I see the consensus here, but does everyone agree with it simply because that's the way it's usually done?  It doesn't make much sense to me that an LSAT score can be perhaps the ultimate arbiter in determining where you get to go to law school, but is completely irrelevant and uninformative to a potential legal employer.  Especially since at this stage we have no law school grades to show potential employers.  I just wonder what the origins of this particular social convention in the legal community are?
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: goaliechica on November 20, 2008, 03:50:35 PM
OK, I see the consensus here, but does everyone agree with it simply because that's the way it's usually done?  It doesn't make much sense to me that an LSAT score can be perhaps the ultimate arbiter in determining where you get to go to law school, but is completely irrelevant and uninformative to a potential legal employer.  Especially since at this stage we have no law school grades to show potential employers.  I just wonder what the origins of this particular social convention in the legal community are?

I know it's frustrating, because you are going to be judged primarily on where you go to school, and your LSAT score is arguably the most significant factor in determining the school you attend. Why not let employers know how well you did, right? I think the best answer is that every profession has certain conventions, and you just have to follow those rules, whether they make sense to you or not, or risk coming off as immature and unprofessional. In some fields it would be considered irrelevant and potentially even inappropriate to bring a transcript to an interview, and in some fields it's pretty much mandatory. Same kind of deal.

Don't worry. You're going to get a cool summer job coming from Penn, and soon enough you'll have some grades to show for yourself, and your LSAT score really will start to feel irrelevant.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Ender Wiggin on November 20, 2008, 08:55:41 PM
I know the overwhelming conventional wisdom on putting your LSAT score on your resume is HELL NO! but hear me out.  I have a 180 and given that we have no grades or anything to put on our Dec. 1 resumes, would putting this on my resume still be off-putting and a deal breaker or a decent way to differentiate myself until I have actual law school grades to use.

This is proof that LSAT doesn't mean everything.  You got one and still don't know the answers to easy questions. 
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: jacy85 on November 21, 2008, 04:40:08 AM
OK, I see the consensus here, but does everyone agree with it simply because that's the way it's usually done?  It doesn't make much sense to me that an LSAT score can be perhaps the ultimate arbiter in determining where you get to go to law school, but is completely irrelevant and uninformative to a potential legal employer.  Especially since at this stage we have no law school grades to show potential employers.  I just wonder what the origins of this particular social convention in the legal community are?

What do you mean, "the way it's usually done"?  If an LSAT score is going on the resume, it will like: LSAT: 1XX, with some minor variations.  The fact that you have a 180 there instead of a 145 makes no difference.  Employers don't care.  If I'm looking to hire someone in any capacity, I want to see where they go to school, what their grades were in undergrad, I want to read a writing sample, I want to see what their interests/personality are.  I don't give a flying rat's *ss what they scored on a 4 hour test they took on Saturday afternoon.  So there's your answer about where this particular social convention in the legal community originated.

Oh...and one more thing, FWIW, don't put anything in your cover letters that sounds as uptight as "the origins of this particular social convention in the legal community."  That, coupled with your 180 on a resume, would lead me to ding you out of concerns that you see yourself as intellectually superior and full of yourself.  People want to work with people they like.  Write and speak intelligently, but don't make yourself unapproachable and douchy.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: dashrashi on November 21, 2008, 05:50:10 AM
I know the overwhelming conventional wisdom on putting your LSAT score on your resume is HELL NO! but hear me out.  I have a 180 and given that we have no grades or anything to put on our Dec. 1 resumes, would putting this on my resume still be off-putting and a deal breaker or a decent way to differentiate myself until I have actual law school grades to use.

Ummm...I'm pretty sure they went over this at our Career Planning workshop.  So much for collegiality  :-\

Okay, yes. This is the problem. I'm getting nasty hints of superiority/inferiority complex thing. Like what he really wants to say is "I could have gone somewhere better than Penn." Which is objectively awful and screwed up. Goalie was very gentle.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: rucoach on November 21, 2008, 11:01:45 AM
So basically we don't use it because people at our career planning workshops said not, so I suppose if they said to do it we all would.  I'm not denying that it seems to be the way things are done, it's just interesting.  To have the LSAT be as important as it is in law school admissions, but then be told that absent any other data (i.e. law school grades) a 145 is the same as a 180 means either the test lacks any validity and should be weighted far less in admissions or this is simply a social convention (a term which apparently offends some people here, but which seems to be the best description of what's going on).  Again, sorry that questioning orthodoxy rankles some posters.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: dashrashi on November 21, 2008, 12:04:10 PM
So basically we don't use it because people at our career planning workshops said not, so I suppose if they said to do it we all would.  I'm not denying that it seems to be the way things are done, it's just interesting.  To have the LSAT be as important as it is in law school admissions, but then be told that absent any other data (i.e. law school grades) a 145 is the same as a 180 means either the test lacks any validity and should be weighted far less in admissions or this is simply a social convention (a term which apparently offends some people here, but which seems to be the best description of what's going on).  Again, sorry that questioning orthodoxy rankles some posters.

Have you considered that it's because, as a first matter, everyone knows the focus on LSAT is unseemly? And while law schools can't seem to get away from it, firms and employers are happy to take the opportunity to make the whole legal world a little less focused on one four-hour test?
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: just some guy on November 21, 2008, 12:30:14 PM
I might put a 183 on there just to see if any one noticed.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: summerisnear on November 21, 2008, 02:07:16 PM
i agree 100% with everything jacy85 said, and i will add one more thing.  the LSAT is a "predictor of law school performance," nothing else.  it cannot predict how competent of an employee one will be, and employers therefore don't care what score you got.  your school's name will tell them what they want to know (given you're not in a position to supply grades).  and i'll just re-emphasize one thing jacy pointed out:  trying to set yourself apart by bragging about a 180 LSAT score is indeed douchey. 
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Miss P on November 21, 2008, 07:51:43 PM
In addition to everything else that others have said this

"180?  why isn't this kid at yale or stanford or in at penn with a levy?  maybe this lsat score is the best thing about him?  maybe he has lousy grades because he's got no work ethic, and just got into a good law school because he got lucky on his test date?"

should be a serious concern. 
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Ender Wiggin on November 22, 2008, 10:32:43 AM
So basically we don't use it because people at our career planning workshops said not, so I suppose if they said to do it we all would.  I'm not denying that it seems to be the way things are done, it's just interesting.  To have the LSAT be as important as it is in law school admissions, but then be told that absent any other data (i.e. law school grades) a 145 is the same as a 180 means either the test lacks any validity and should be weighted far less in admissions or this is simply a social convention (a term which apparently offends some people here, but which seems to be the best description of what's going on).  Again, sorry that questioning orthodoxy rankles some posters.

Are you sure you got a 180?  It's a good thing there wasn't a problem like this on the test, because you're making lots of funky assumptions.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: suchgreatheights on December 19, 2008, 02:25:59 PM
In general, institutions accept applicants when applicants give them what they want. 

Prestige determining law school rankings , not insignificant part, by the LSAT scores of their incoming class; its possible to get into a good law school just by scoring high enough on the LSAT because it gives them one of the things they want. 

Law firms on the other hand, don't publish LSAT statistics; they do however publish information about where their associates went to law school and that can be part of their strategy in attracting clients; its part of their professional image like wearing conservative suits.  Adding another Harvard or Yale graduate to their list of associates is therefore often defacto enough to get in since it fulfills one of the things they want from associates. 

A huge part of the appeal of a high LSAT to law schools does not exist with law firms: it doesn't give them anything. 

Similarly a perfect GRE will not get you into a good grad school: its not what they're looking for. 
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: jmcarothers on December 19, 2008, 06:31:06 PM
A high LSAT tells employers that you're bright/read fast. When you have nothing else to put on your resume to make yourself stand out, it makes sense to put it on there. I made a 179, and I'll be putting it on my resume. I don't go to Yale, but on the only standard metric by which applicants are judged, I'm better than most Yale students. It may be that some people will be disgusted, like the poster above. But some people might be impressed, and many will consider it to be a relevant and meaningful data point. Cheers!
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: goaliechica on December 19, 2008, 06:33:53 PM
A high LSAT tells employers that you're bright/read fast. When you have nothing else to put on your resume to make yourself stand out, it makes sense to put it on there. I made a 179, and I'll be putting it on my resume. I don't go to Yale, but on the only standard metric by which applicants are judged, I'm better than most Yale students. It may be that some people will be disgusted, like the poster above. But some people might be impressed, and many will consider it to be a relevant and meaningful data point. Cheers!

Don't do it, dude. Seriously.

ETA: Because, as I said before, it's not about what you think it says about you, or even what it actually does say about you. It's about understanding and respecting the customs of a profession, and it is not considered acceptable to put an LSAT score on a resume. Full stop.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: jmcarothers on December 19, 2008, 06:36:15 PM
I never heard about that custom. In fact, I've seen job applications that request that you share your LSAT score. I think it was the Office of Chief Counsel at the IRS that wants it. It makes sense to ask for it, too, because it's a useful reading comprehension test.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: goaliechica on December 19, 2008, 06:38:09 PM
I never heard about that custom. In fact, I've seen job applications that request that you share your LSAT score. I think it was the Office of Chief Counsel at the IRS that wants it. It makes sense to ask for it, too, because it's a useful reading comprehension test.

Is an application a resume? No, it is not. If an application asks for it, then you give it to them. But you don't put it on your resume. It's like telling them you were valedictorian of your high school - it might well be impressive, but it just makes you ridiculous.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: jmcarothers on December 19, 2008, 06:39:40 PM
I think the fact that some employers request the information suggests that it's not extraneous (like information about your high school class rank).
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: jmcarothers on December 19, 2008, 06:58:10 PM
Quote
At best, it's a waste of space.  At worst, it triggers social sanctions (like I said, tossed in the trash), and indicates unpleasant personality qualities.

At best, it gets you an interview. At worst, your package is passed over - I doubt this is the sort of faux pas that gets you permanently blacklisted anywhere, goalie's opposition notwithstanding. Also, these survey respondents - some of whom found LSAT scores to be somewhat useful - were participating in Yale's OCI, where interviewees can be presumed to have done quite well. I don't go to that sort of a school. Thanks for posting that info, by the way. Here's a link to the entire information sheet, for anyone else interested:

http://www.law.yale.edu/documents/pdf/CDO_Public/cdo-resumequestions.pdf
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: jmcarothers on December 19, 2008, 07:18:41 PM
I dunno, I personally consider it to be a valuable data point. Some older attorneys I know also do. It only makes sense to put it on the resume to differentiate yourself, and I think I'll take the risk. If there's some "custom" that it doesn't belong on the resume, now's a good time to start putting an end to it.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Miss P on December 19, 2008, 07:20:37 PM
If you don't go to a school that usually attracts people with 179s, your LSAT score will put a red flag on your resume: why isn't this guy at Yale?  If you have an endowed merit scholarship, list that instead.  The people who care will use it as a proxy for your LSAT score, and no one will be put off by it.

ETA:  If you're serious about this,

I dunno, I personally consider it to be a valuable data point. Some older attorneys I know also do. It only makes sense to put it on the resume to differentiate yourself, and I think I'll take the risk. If there's some "custom" that it doesn't belong on the resume, now's a good time to start putting an end to it.

I think you're probably going to have bigger problems than your LSAT-laden resume.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: jmcarothers on December 19, 2008, 07:23:25 PM
I don't have an endowed merit scholarship. The reason I'm going to the school I'm going to is likely clear: I didn't do as well as I could have at college. It's not like they'll think, oh my god, this guy's a murderer, and the Harvard admissions committee found out and decided to reject him.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Miss P on December 19, 2008, 07:24:48 PM
I don't have an endowed merit scholarship. The reason I'm going to the school I'm going to is likely clear: I didn't do as well as I could have at college. It's not like they'll think, oh my god, this guy's a murderer, and the Harvard admissions committee found out and decided to reject him.

As a fellow splitter, I guarantee that you don't want to call attention to this in your job search.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: jmcarothers on December 19, 2008, 07:25:27 PM
You quoted some text I typed out and implied that it suggests I have serious problems, but you didn't say why.

On the guarantee: what happened?
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Miss P on December 19, 2008, 07:44:18 PM
You quoted some text I typed out and implied that it suggests I have serious problems, but you didn't say why.

You really shouldn't put so much stock in an admissions test.  It's great that you did well, but you're in law school now.  The 179 served its purpose.  Go out and do something you'll be proud to put on your resume.

On the guarantee: what happened?

Nothing happened to me.  But as someone who has been through job interviews for years and who used to do job interviews with highly pedigreed lawyers, I know that learning about your poor college performance (especially when it's contrasted with a high LSAT score) will make prospective employers think you are lazy.  Assuming you are applying to elite/selective jobs, the people reviewing your resume are likely going to be hyper-ambitious overachievers who will not understand why you didn't work harder or do better if you're so smart.  Really.  I know I'm just a stranger from the internet, but listen to the resounding chorus of advice from people who have been through this. 

FWIW, I empathize with your desire to tell people that you are a splitter.  Still, it will be much better for you in the long run if you let go of the defensiveness and concentrate on excelling now. 
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: jmcarothers on December 19, 2008, 07:48:46 PM
So you're suggesting that it's better to leave the LSAT off the resume because it might signal to overachieving interviewers that I did poorly in college?

I think that's also a risk I'm willing to take - I do have a scholarship, although it's not an endowed one, and I go to school near where much of my family lives.

Thanks for the advice, by the way, and of course I'm doing my best to do well at law school. Law exams, unfortunately, are not standardized.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Miss P on December 19, 2008, 07:59:09 PM
So you're suggesting that it's better to leave the LSAT off the resume because it might signal to overachieving interviewers that I did poorly in college?

I think that's also a risk I'm willing to take - I do have a scholarship, although it's not an endowed one, and I go to school near where much of my family lives.

Just list your scholarship.  People who care will know that it means you have an above-average LSAT for your school.

This is not the only reason I'm suggesting you leave the LSAT off your resume.  I agree with the other posters here: it will really turn some people off and it is unlikely to draw anyone in.  It also poses the risk of raising a red flag about your work ethic.  All of these are good reasons.  But you seem resolved to do things your way, and I guess you'll see how that goes. 

Thanks for the advice, by the way, and of course I'm doing my best to do well at law school. Law exams, unfortunately, are not standardized.

Good luck. :)
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: jmcarothers on December 19, 2008, 08:11:17 PM
I just want to reiterate that if it turns anyone off, that's not going to have a lasting impact on your career.
If some interviewers are concerned that you weren't a hard worker in college and won't give you an interview *because* of your high LSAT, well that sucks. There's just as good a chance that someone will think you're bright and give you an interview because of your high LSAT score. Or perhaps the chance of this latter possibility is significantly lower. It still exists, and it makes sense to roll the dice. Because the fact is that hundreds of virtually identical 1Ls are sending in applications for very few positions, and a high LSAT score sets you apart. If you don't include it, you're unlikely to get any interviews; if you do, you may have a slightly better chance of getting one.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Miss P on December 19, 2008, 08:14:46 PM
I just want to reiterate that if it turns anyone off, that's not going to have a lasting impact on your career.
If some interviewers are concerned that you weren't a hard worker in college and won't give you an interview *because* of your high LSAT, well that sucks. There's just as good a chance that someone will think you're bright and give you an interview because of your high LSAT score. Or perhaps the chance of this latter possibility is significantly lower. It still exists, and it makes sense to roll the dice. Because the fact is that hundreds of virtually identical 1Ls are sending in applications for very few positions, and a high LSAT score sets you apart. If you don't include it, you're unlikely to get any interviews; if you do, you may have a slightly better chance of getting one.

I don't know where you get the bolded.  99% of law students do not include their LSAT scores on their resumes.  They get interviews.  js.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: jmcarothers on December 19, 2008, 08:17:06 PM
99% of 1Ls get interviews for summer associate positions? I thought it was more like 2%.

ETA: I'll also be sending packages to courts, government agencies, and public interest orgs. The percentage 1Ls who get interviews at any of these places is still low.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Miss P on December 19, 2008, 08:20:32 PM
99% of 1Ls get interviews for summer associate positions? I thought it was more like 2%.

Oh, I didn't realize you were confining your search to SA positions.  (And I thought everyone applied for those the first week of December.  I don't really know about these things as I am a public interest type.)  I also didn't mean to imply that 99% of 1Ls get interviews (certainly not for SA positions).  Since we all know about your superior reading comprehension, we can chalk that one up to my sloppy wording.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: jmcarothers on December 19, 2008, 08:21:57 PM
Was that this year? Also, please let me know where I've gone wrong instead of saying I have, if possible.

ETA: Also, the LSAT is absolutely my only relevant credential, and that's certainly why I want to include it. I don't think that makes me evil.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Miss P on December 19, 2008, 08:25:08 PM
Also, please let me know where I've gone wrong instead of saying I have, if possible.

Look, I don't think any of us are trying to be jerks.  If you're getting kind of a bad vibe here, perhaps it should give you some indication of how feminine hygiene product-y people think it is to list your LSAT score on your resume.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: jmcarothers on December 19, 2008, 08:41:03 PM
(1) Smart can never hurt.
(2) This is an awful market - firms are laying of first years and rescinding 2L offers.
(3) Putting your LSAT score on your resume doesn't mean that you're automatically considered to be unpleasant to be around
(4) I don't have latin honors for UG, but maybe one or two people will think I'm more likely to get them because my LSAT score's 10 points above my school's 75th percentile (whether this is a valid thought is immaterial; I'm just interested in getting my foot in the door)
(5) This whole "social stigma" ding notion is highly suspect. You noted yourself that Yale's career services doesn't ban the practice. They say some employers find the information somewhat useful. And by including it in their info sheet, they even implicitly encourage people with 180s to put that on their resume (perhaps).

Quote
LSAT doesn't fit into that rubric, and your inclusion of it draws attention to your low undergrad GPA (signaling you won't put in the hours) and gives you questionable "flight to China" value for office dynamics.

But that's not the only possible interpretation of the high LSAT score at lower ranked school. That's especially true in my case, where (1) I have a decent scholarship and (2) I have ties to the area the school's in.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: jmcarothers on December 19, 2008, 08:49:13 PM
I suppose I've hit a nerve.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Miss P on December 19, 2008, 08:51:55 PM
I suppose I've hit a nerve.

You haven't hit a nerve; we just think you're being a bit arrogant.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: blueskies6 on December 19, 2008, 08:53:53 PM
I suppose I've hit a nerve.

You haven't hit a nerve; we just think you're being a bit arrogant.

And thickheaded.  You got the advice you wanted, but instead chose not to listen to it so no one wants to bother giving you any more advice.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: jmcarothers on December 19, 2008, 08:55:21 PM
Well when I got here, there was an unjustified prohibition on the practice. I think I've done a bit to make it seem a little more respectable. At least the reasoning behind the ban's been fleshed out.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: dashrashi on December 19, 2008, 09:59:26 PM
Oh My Jesus f-ing God. I am clawing my eyes out right now.

GET OVER YOUR TEST SCORE. FIND SOMETHING ELSE YOU LIKE ABOUT YOURSELF. DO NOT PUT YOUR LSAT ON YOUR RESUME. DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT.

THERE WERE NO NERVES HIT; YOU'RE JUST AN ENORMOUS f-ing feminine hygiene product.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: jmcarothers on December 19, 2008, 10:01:06 PM
Oh My Jesus f-ing God. I am clawing my eyes out right now.

GET OVER YOUR TEST SCORE. FIND SOMETHING ELSE YOU LIKE ABOUT YOURSELF. DO NOT PUT YOUR LSAT ON YOUR RESUME. DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT.

THERE WERE NO NERVES HIT; YOU'RE JUST AN ENORMOUS f-ing feminine hygiene product.

Relax!
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: dashrashi on December 19, 2008, 10:03:07 PM
Guys? How much do I love f-ing 1Ls telling me to "relax"? I always forget.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Jamie Stringer on December 19, 2008, 10:10:51 PM
Oh My Jesus f-ing God. I am clawing my eyes out right now.

GET OVER YOUR TEST SCORE. FIND SOMETHING ELSE YOU LIKE ABOUT YOURSELF. DO NOT PUT YOUR LSAT ON YOUR RESUME. DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT.

THERE WERE NO NERVES HIT; YOU'RE JUST AN ENORMOUS f-ing feminine hygiene product.

TITMFCR.

Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: jacy85 on December 20, 2008, 05:32:43 AM
Um...you have done absolutely nothing to make "the practice" seem more acceptable.  You have done a great job in making yourself out to be a giant, stubborn douchbag who thinks one test score makes him worthy of getting a job.  I really think you are severely underestimating the negative impact this will have on people viewing your application.  I for one would immediately dislike you as an applicant if I saw your lsat score.  You'd have to have something pretty spectacular to overcome that much of a negative reaction (and let's face it - if you had something spectacular, you wouldn't be putting your lsat score on your resume anyway).

You LSAT says pretty much nothing about you other than your ability to take a standardized test.  As a lawyer, I couldn't care ANY less about that particular skill.  I care about how you did in undergrad, about how you did in law school, and about your activities, work experience and life experience.  So even if you don't immediately turn someone off by the LSAT score, you still seem to be showing poor judgment.  Every single word on your resume should be geared toward showing an employer that you'd be valuable to them.  Anything that doesn't do so needs to go.  You're wasting the employer's time with anything that doesn't achieve that, and that's the last thing you want to do when that decision-maker is sifting through a huge stack of resumes.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: K? on December 21, 2008, 10:13:52 AM
I suppose I've hit a nerve.

You haven't hit a nerve; we just think you're being a bit arrogant.

And thickheaded.  You got the advice you wanted, but instead chose not to listen to it so no one wants to bother giving you any more advice.

This is what I always find most amazing.

< Has a very high LSAT for his school and will definitely not be letting it get anywhere near his resume.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: TeresaPinfold on December 21, 2008, 06:59:06 PM
Obviously the other reasons remain, but won't firms already know about your poor UG GPA? I would assume UG GPA is a standard thing to put on your resume. Therefore, either they see you have a bad GPA, or they see you have a bad enough GPA that you want to keep it a secret. I mean, if you have a 3.0, maybe they'll assume it was a 3.2, but I don't think you can really hide too much. 
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: jmcarothers on December 21, 2008, 07:09:17 PM
If they're rational about it, they won't care so much about a low UG GPA. After all, most literate people can swing a 3.7+ in the humanities if they're so inclined.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Miss P on December 21, 2008, 07:17:22 PM
Most law students don't list their undergraduate GPA on their resumes unless they have high honors.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Miss P on December 21, 2008, 07:35:30 PM
the question is if they are so inclined.  that's the piece of information they're trying to glean. 

Our high-scoring friend is having a real problem wrapping his head around this one.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: jmcarothers on December 22, 2008, 01:15:43 PM
I've heard the same thing about the UG GPA - that you should list it if it looks high, even if it didn't get you latin honors at your school.

On the GPA vs. LSAT thing: I figure if a recruiter thinks "but for some youthful indiscretions, this guy would be at Harvard," that's a bit better than "ah, yet another generic candidate from mediocre School X." Some might respond in the absurd way dasharashi did, but I'm not sure I'd want to work at that kind of shop anyway.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: goaliechica on December 22, 2008, 01:17:08 PM
I've heard the same thing about the UG GPA - that you should list it if it looks high, even if it didn't get you latin honors at your school.

On the GPA vs. LSAT thing: I figure if a recruiter thinks "but for some youthful indiscretions, this guy would be at Harvard," that's a bit better than "ah, yet another generic candidate from mediocre School X." Some might respond in the absurd way dasharashi did, but I'm not sure I'd want to work at that kind of shop anyway.


And most of the other people in this thread who've applied for legal jobs....
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: jmcarothers on December 22, 2008, 01:21:02 PM
I'm hoping the groupthink among recruiters is different. ;)
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: goaliechica on December 22, 2008, 01:22:10 PM
I'm hoping the groupthink among recruiters is different. ;)

Well good luck with that.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: jmcarothers on December 22, 2008, 01:47:12 PM
Quote
yeah, the student who would have been at harvard but for some youthful indiscretions IS the generic candidate from mediocre school x.

That's not true. 90% of students (75% at the very least) at my school didn't do well enough on the LSAT to get into Harvard.

Going through the 1L job hunt at a school like Harvard or Columbia doesn't make you a recruiter mind reader. It gives you little information, I'd think, about what HR types think when they see resumes from lower ranked schools. It wouldn't be unreasonable for them to think, "oh, he's probably one of the brighter ones, maybe we should call him in to see what he has to say."

Quote
If it's easy to do, then why the heck didn't you bother?

I made straight As in my last four semesters, after I decided I was going to grad school. It took very little effort.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Jamie Stringer on December 22, 2008, 01:52:35 PM
Are you in desperate need for attention?  You've had basically 8 pages of people telling you the idea is crap.  Give it up.  You're not going to change the world (or at least how recruiters and hiring partners view resumes).  You're not going to be a special and unique snowflake who will be lauded for being brave.  Please, for the love of Popazao, give it up.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: JeNeSaisLaw on December 22, 2008, 01:58:57 PM
I like this thread.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: dashrashi on December 22, 2008, 02:05:41 PM
JMcarothers: (which appears to be his real initials/name, y'all) competing strongly for title of LSD toolbox of December. YLS2012 isn't going down without a fight, though.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: jmcarothers on December 22, 2008, 02:08:50 PM
If your posts in this thread are any indication, you've probably clinched the "LSD toolbox, period" award, so I won't bother to compete for that.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: goaliechica on December 22, 2008, 02:09:19 PM
JMcarothers: (which appears to be his real initials/name, y'all) competing strongly for title of LSD toolbox of December. YLS2012 isn't going down without a fight, though.

Don't ask me about my numbers or softs until I put them on my resume?
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: goaliechica on December 22, 2008, 02:09:37 PM
If your posts in this thread are any indication, you've probably clinched the "LSD toolbox, period" award, so I won't bother to compete for that.

OH SNAP
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: dashrashi on December 22, 2008, 02:19:43 PM
If your posts in this thread are any indication, you've probably clinched the "LSD toolbox, period" award, so I won't bother to compete for that.

nah.  dash is soft and fuzzy.

but friendly advice: remove your email address from your profile.

tm, you are so friendly.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Miss P on December 23, 2008, 01:34:13 AM
I've heard the same thing about the UG GPA - that you should list it if it looks high, even if it didn't get you latin honors at your school.

Going back to this, I just want to say I didn't mean you should list your GPA only if you had Latin honors.  I agree with YBR that you should list your GPA if there's something impressive about it (e.g., high GPA in tough major, very high GPA, etc.).

Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled programming --
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: dashrashi on December 23, 2008, 06:31:22 AM
I don't mean to be self-aggrandizing, but I think it's safe to say that that places in you in objectively bad company. Something to consider.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: dashrashi on December 23, 2008, 06:57:53 AM
I think Bosco's the only current regular. But he often likes to have convos with himself. I'm torn.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: K? on December 23, 2008, 01:01:52 PM
*gets his popcorn ready*
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: dashrashi on December 23, 2008, 03:13:54 PM
"Heinous female dog"--I do love the gendered insults circa late 90s MTV. I don't need any reminding about that.

Carothers did not need outing--I would've guessed that those were his initials/surname without the confirmation from the email address.

And he was also being a huge f-ing feminine hygiene product: argumentative with people who clearly knew better after they gave him an answer he didn't like. Just because he refrained from calling tm a shithead doesn't mean he was being polite. I understand how you might make that mistake, though--form over substance seems to be a common error.

I stand by every single post I made in this thread.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: dashrashi on December 23, 2008, 06:14:12 PM
Tm couldn't have had his response without my noting it first. And the kid was objectively f-ing clueless and rudely obnoxious. Obtuseness frustrates me; purposeful obtuseness makes me insane with rage. You should feel free to have different reactions, but those are mine.

Feel free to call me a hysterical female dog now, if you want. I really do appreciate the gendered insults.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: dashrashi on December 23, 2008, 06:39:07 PM
Did I say they weren't acceptable? I recall saying I appreciated them.

Whatever, you're unpleasant. And not in a funny way.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: dashrashi on December 23, 2008, 07:02:26 PM
Did I say they weren't acceptable? I recall saying I appreciated them.


You're right.  I mistook it for sarcasm.  I apologize about that then.

Whatever, you're unpleasant. And not in a funny way.

I'm not trying to be pleasant or funny.  I really do think you were a feminine hygiene product in this thread.

Well maybe that's not entirely true....it's a little bit to be funny.  You're just easily excitable (typical woman) and I find it amusing to call you out on your douchey behavior sometimes.

Aw, now you're making me feel bad for you. I always feel bad when people try and fail, painfully (e.g. you, trying to be funny).
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: dashrashi on December 23, 2008, 07:16:19 PM
I think the comma more than pays for itself. And an explanatory e.g. is usually much more successful than an explanatory i.e.. But again, that's simply my opinion.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on December 23, 2008, 07:58:33 PM
Did I say they weren't acceptable? I recall saying I appreciated them.


You're right.  I mistook it for sarcasm.  I apologize about that then.

Whatever, you're unpleasant. And not in a funny way.

I'm not trying to be pleasant or funny.  I really do think you were a feminine hygiene product in this thread.

Well maybe that's not entirely true....it's a little bit to be funny.  You're just easily excitable (typical woman) and I find it amusing to call you out on your douchey behavior sometimes.

@#!* off

seriously, that bull isn't funny in the least. ooooooh i said something sexist, look at me, look at me! i bet some feminist is going to get all mad at me for it and then i can laugh!

(happy now, tm? i'll bow out now)

ETA: dash, I like your comma
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: goaliechica on December 23, 2008, 08:14:27 PM
Did I say they weren't acceptable? I recall saying I appreciated them.


You're right.  I mistook it for sarcasm.  I apologize about that then.

Whatever, you're unpleasant. And not in a funny way.

I'm not trying to be pleasant or funny.  I really do think you were a feminine hygiene product in this thread.

Well maybe that's not entirely true....it's a little bit to be funny.  You're just easily excitable (typical woman) and I find it amusing to call you out on your douchey behavior sometimes.

@#!* off

seriously, that bull isn't funny in the least. ooooooh i said something sexist, look at me, look at me! i bet some feminist is going to get all mad at me for it and then i can laugh!

(happy now, tm? i'll bow out now)

ETA: dash, I like your comma

Haha, do you really think I said that to piss off dash?  That was a fairly obvious and innocuous joke, that I think even dash took in the spirit it was meant, even if she didn't think it was funny.

 ::) @ it being "obvious and innocuous."

Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: K? on December 23, 2008, 11:04:40 PM

(http://irritationx.googlepages.com/emot-munch.gif)
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: dashrashi on December 24, 2008, 06:32:06 AM
Haha, do you really think I said that to piss off dash?  That was a fairly obvious and innocuous joke, that I think even dash took in the spirit it was meant, even if she didn't think it was funny.

Wow, fuckhead. The only reason I didn't flip out on you over the "typical woman" was because I thought you had enough sense only to do it ironically (i.e.*  to piss me off personally). If you just made a "hysterical woman" joke because, like, whatever, that's your vernacular, go @#!* yourself.

*not being funny; being explanatory
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: dashrashi on December 24, 2008, 07:14:59 AM
Again, I give people the benefit of the doubt, and I assume you (at least, you) are actually being ironic.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: dashrashi on December 24, 2008, 10:54:04 AM
Thanks for the explication. It was wholly necessary.

Shithead.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: goaliechica on December 24, 2008, 11:53:06 AM
In fairness, I don't think it's amusing when tm. says stuff like that either.

<----humorless feminist

But whatever. I'm over this tangent. Make the OP come back!
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on December 24, 2008, 12:10:19 PM
In fairness, I don't think it's amusing when tm. says stuff like that either.

<----humorless feminist

But whatever. I'm over this tangent. Make the OP come back!

I agree. Whether or not you think it's tongue-in-cheek, comments of that kind are all too often leveled against women who have the audacity of hope to argue about something. It serves to delegitimatize their (our) arguments without actually addressing them, and I'm sick of it. I get that people may not actually believe it's true or whatever, but I'm still pretty f-ing sick of it, and I think there are very few situations in which such a comment can be utilized effectively and/or comically, particularly without a friendly relationship with the individuals in question. In the interest of full disclosure, I'm probably guilty of making similar comments when they are part of a long-running dialogue but could be interpreted wrongly by bystanders as an endorsement of either the sentiment or the general practice of making such comments.

Also, I'll admit to being short on patience at the moment for those things that normally piss me off but I'm not willing to pick fights about. I'm having a Very Bad Week (but my parents are making lemon chiffon cake right now so things are looking up). That doesn't mean that it's not f-ing annoying at all times, though.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on December 24, 2008, 12:17:37 PM
Well, you know, given that full disclosure bit, I can hardly expect people to know it bugs unless I say something about it.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: dashrashi on December 24, 2008, 12:55:47 PM
If that's your olive branch, I fear for your relationships with others.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: dashrashi on December 24, 2008, 01:40:20 PM
Pissed as all hell?

Naw. I don't really give a *&^%.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: dashrashi on December 24, 2008, 02:54:02 PM
That's because you're a non-thinking conflater, apparently.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: sstar on December 24, 2008, 03:19:29 PM
*grabs popcorn*
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: dashrashi on December 24, 2008, 04:41:56 PM
Speaking truth doesn't often win you fans. I can deal.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: dashrashi on December 24, 2008, 06:53:43 PM
You split your infinitive.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: dashrashi on December 24, 2008, 08:24:39 PM
Also not funny. God, you are a sad case, aren't you?
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on December 24, 2008, 09:03:08 PM
LAST WORD.

there, now neither one of you can have it.

I want it.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: mugatu on December 25, 2008, 12:33:44 AM
LAST WORD.

there, now neither one of you can have it.

Haha, fair enough.  I'll let you two continue the last word battle, I'm gonna delete out cause I don't this in my unreads and pretty much all of my posts are quoted (some several times).

Not that you care dash, but I don't really have anything against you personally and know nothing about you outside of witnessing a few of your rants.....and in this case I thought your freak-out was pretty unnecessary/unwarranted since I think the guy was just trying to have a discussion in good faith, even if he was a bit annoying.  Forgetting about me and you for a second.....I think the mature thing for you to do would be to apologize to carothers, and maybe delete your tantrum.

 :D

smh

Dude.  It's all patronizing all over the place and then we get this?  This rubbish? 

smh
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: mugatu on December 25, 2008, 12:41:59 AM
LAST WORD.

there, now neither one of you can have it.

Haha, fair enough.  I'll let you two continue the last word battle, I'm gonna delete out cause I don't this in my unreads and pretty much all of my posts are quoted (some several times).

Not that you care dash, but I don't really have anything against you personally and know nothing about you outside of witnessing a few of your rants.....and in this case I thought your freak-out was pretty unnecessary/unwarranted since I think the guy was just trying to have a discussion in good faith, even if he was a bit annoying.  Forgetting about me and you for a second.....I think the mature thing for you to do would be to apologize to carothers, and maybe delete your tantrum.

 :D

smh

Dude.  It's all patronizing all over the place and then we get this?  This rubbish? 

smh

Huh?  Are you talking about me patronizing dash?  I've never tried to be anything but patronizing to dash.

we must be working from different definitions.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: mugatu on December 25, 2008, 01:01:33 AM

we must be working from different definitions.

Alright. 

We've talked a lot about me in the last few pages.  Even if we can all agree I was a feminine hygiene product in this thread....clawing her eyes out cause a 1L is making a dumb argument?  Come on, let your SFLSD guard down for a second....even if you don't like me, you don't really support dash going psycho all the time do you?

it seems you're a bit focused on what dash thinks and does, but ok. 

I didn't think dash's statement was so awkward in context, and i haven't noticed dash "going psycho all the time." 

Maybe I don't pay attention as close as you do.

(This, and I'm being serious, doesn't really have anything to do with SFLSD relationships, my perception of you (honestly, I don't really have anything particularly flushed out yet) or my perception of dash.)
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: jmcarothers on December 25, 2008, 01:58:43 AM
I wasn't scared away and I'm not flame. The forum does seem to be incapable of supporting a rational discussion. You guys should try not to let your relationships and this SFLSD stuff, whatever that is, color the "advice" you give to law students. I think there are designated entertainment sections on the site where profanity, circle-jerking, and baseless personal attacks might be less counterproductive.

I won't post to this thread again. Anyone interested in the topic can read what's been said. There are only a couple of very simple propositions on either side.  It's clear that all parties are speculating, some more reasonably than others.

A note to readers: several posts have been inexplicably eliminated from the thread. The substance of the discussion is in the first several pages, and nothing of value was deleted, as far as I can tell.

Happy holidays all!
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: dashrashi on December 25, 2008, 05:22:40 AM
Methinks the lady doth protest too much. He seems to care quite a bit, despite his repeated assertions to the contrary.

I also think it's precious that he keeps asserting that carothers was being perfectly polite. There is nothing polite about the discussional equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and humming when you ask for advice and receive an answer you didn't want.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Thistle on December 25, 2008, 03:12:08 PM
LAST WORD.

there, now neither one of you can have it.

I want it.


share it with me!
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: CST on December 25, 2008, 05:17:37 PM
You guys need to stop giving the OP advice. The more people who do what he does, the better it is for the rest of you.

OP, thanks for making my day. When I read this, I had a good laugh. The odds of your resume getting read by an attorney when it has an LSAT on it are about 10%. The other 90% will immediately hit delete (or toss it in the trash if they are old school). An LSAT on a resume, if not requested, demonstrates immaturity, misplaced ego, and a lack of understanding about what skills firms are looking for.

Bored and Bitter Big Law Associate
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: ,.,.,.;.,.,. on December 25, 2008, 06:57:58 PM
I think he should list it.  What putting the LSAT on his resume says, to me, is that he's not afraid to take chances, and I think that may be an asset in a world of spineless young associates who can't take the initiative to order lunch without consulting a higher-up.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Thistle on December 25, 2008, 08:00:51 PM
i think its pretentious as hell, and is likely to piss somebody off

besides the fact that the lsat has no correlation as to skill as an attorney, nor even much of a correlation to success in law school.   
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: ,.,.,.;.,.,. on December 25, 2008, 08:23:37 PM
Little known fact:

The most famous and excellent advocates of our time all got 180s on their LSAT.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Thistle on December 25, 2008, 09:03:21 PM
Little known fact:

The most famous and excellent advocates of our time all got 180s on their LSAT.


oh bull  :P
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: ,.,.,.;.,.,. on December 25, 2008, 09:43:18 PM
Little known fact:

The most famous and excellent advocates of our time all got 180s on their LSAT.


oh bull  :P

I know.  I'm just kidding ya.  A few of them got as low as 175.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: rucoach on December 26, 2008, 09:06:03 AM
As the actual OP, I'm surprised to see my question has generated 14 pages of "discussion".  No, I don't plan on using the LSAT on my resume, given the reaction I see it generated on this board.  But, I would like to iterate a couple of points.

1) I was only talking about resumes sent out at this point in our legal careers (before we have any law school grades).  I fully agree that once grades come out the LSAT is a meaningless number and doesn't deserve a place on your resume. 

2) I think the best reason for the overall policy of not using it is not so much how you come off to law firms (I would hope attorneys at law firms are not so thin-skinned that they bristle at the sight of a test score) but that as a profession we want to keep the shelf life of an LSAT score as short as possible.  If LSAT scores were fair game for resumes, everyone would either have to put it on there or have potential employers wonder why it's not there.  It's in the best interest of everyone not to have it on there. 
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: CST on December 27, 2008, 10:18:16 AM

2) I think the best reason for the overall policy of not using it is not so much how you come off to law firms (I would hope attorneys at law firms are not so thin-skinned that they bristle at the sight of a test score) but that as a profession we want to keep the shelf life of an LSAT score as short as possible.  If LSAT scores were fair game for resumes, everyone would either have to put it on there or have potential employers wonder why it's not there.  It's in the best interest of everyone not to have it on there. 

You have this all wrong. You are entirely missing the point of a resume. You don't exclude an LSAT because you fear the attorneys are thin-skinned. (Do you think we are intimidated by your score?) You exclude it because it says nothing meaningful about what you will contribute to our office. Further, including it if you weren't asked for it, demonstrates that you don't understand what we are looking for. It also suggests to many attorneys that you are immature or egotistical.

The entire purpose of a resume is to market yourself to a potential employer. Many, many people starting out in their careers see it instead as either a dumping ground for everything they have ever done, or some sort of "brag sheet." Yes, you want to portray yourself in a the most favorable light possible, but to do that you need to look at it from the perspective of the employer. There are some times where you may feel the need to include something to "be true to yourself" because you wouldn't want to work for an organization if you felt the need to "hide" part of who you are (people who are heavily involved in certain causes and they run through their work experience, for example." But I hope that your LSAT score is not "who you are." If it is and that is the reason you are including it on your resume, well, you'll wind up where you belong -- but you'll also cut yourself out of the running of a lot of jobs in the process.

Employers have already dictated that the shelf life of the LSAT is limited to the moment you choose your law school. They enforce that policy by dumping the resumes that try to squeeze more milage out of it into the trash.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Thistle on December 27, 2008, 11:22:30 AM
latin honors definitely, or if your school called them something different, include them.  maybe not gpa...i mean, the honors speak for themselves
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Thistle on December 27, 2008, 11:53:15 AM
latin honors definitely, or if your school called them something different, include them.  maybe not gpa...i mean, the honors speak for themselves

Yeah I agree latin honors should definitely be there....I didn't mean putting GPA in addition to latin honors....but if  you didn't get latin honors, would you put your GPA on there?


i have heard that you should consider putting anything over a 3.25 or so; if you did not receive honors.  i do not believe there is a clear consensus on that.

however, typically i would think that while in law school there is only one gpa that counts, your current one.  if we are talking about the resume you send in with the application process, its redundant because lsac provides it anyway.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: goaliechica on December 27, 2008, 12:02:41 PM
latin honors definitely, or if your school called them something different, include them.  maybe not gpa...i mean, the honors speak for themselves

Yeah I agree latin honors should definitely be there....I didn't mean putting GPA in addition to latin honors....but if  you didn't get latin honors, would you put your GPA on there?


i have heard that you should consider putting anything over a 3.25 or so; if you did not receive honors.  i do not believe there is a clear consensus on that.

however, typically i would think that while in law school there is only one gpa that counts, your current one.  if we are talking about the resume you send in with the application process, its redundant because lsac provides it anyway.

I think it probably depends on whether you think it will help or hurt you, and this may depend on where you go to law school. For example, I had a GPA over 3.5, but I go to Boalt, where they put a lot of emphasis on GPA, so my undergrad GPA was only around the 25th percentile for people entering my law school. So even though it's not a *bad* GPA, it seemed like it made more sense to leave it off and let employers assume whatever they liked. I think that unless your GPA is particularly high for your school, you might just want to let your school name speak for itself.

I also think that anyone who has been out of undergrad for any amount of time or has any law school grades should probably leave it off, but that's just my opinion. It probably can't hurt if it's super-high or something, but I doubt it helps much. Employers don't seem to take it amiss if you leave it off.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: JeNeSaisLaw on December 27, 2008, 12:17:03 PM
I'm stuck on this undergrad GPA thing. I don't currently have it on my resume because it's relatively low and it's below the 25th percentile (3.44 I think) at my school. My major was relatively rigorous for my undergrad, but I doubt anybody would a) know or b) give a *&^% because it's still liberal arts. I've generally heard 3.5+, and it just feels weird thinking that it speaks positively of me. On the other hand, I had a 3.8 over the last 2 years, so maybe that'll change things. Decisions, decisions.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: goaliechica on December 27, 2008, 12:20:47 PM
I'm stuck on this undergrad GPA thing. I don't currently have it on my resume because it's relatively low and it's below the 25th percentile (3.44 I think) at my school. My major was relatively rigorous for my undergrad, but I doubt anybody would a) know or b) give a *&^% because it's still liberal arts. I've generally heard 3.5+, and it just feels weird thinking that it speaks positively of me. On the other hand, I had a 3.8 over the last 2 years, so maybe that'll change things. Decisions, decisions.

I wouldn't include it. Your major will be on there, so if anyone happens to know it's a rigorous major at your undergrad, you'll get points for that. How would you convey the fact that you had a 3.8 over the last 2 years on a resume, anyway?
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: JeNeSaisLaw on December 27, 2008, 12:24:11 PM
GPA: 3.44 (3.8 in final 2 years)

I guess if they really care they'll request a transcript.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: goaliechica on December 27, 2008, 12:27:03 PM
GPA: 3.44 (3.8 in final 2 years)

I guess if they really care they'll request a transcript.

Yeah, I wouldn't do that. Career services might have a more official answer for you, but legal employers are not going to care about your undergrad grade trend.

ETA: And I have never heard of a legal employer requesting an undergrad transcript before, but maybe someone else has. I've seen a very few government applications ask for your undergrad GPA, but no one cares about your actual grades. 
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: JeNeSaisLaw on December 27, 2008, 12:33:48 PM
Oh, interesting. I wonder why I have it in my head that I should find a PDF of my transcript. I'll definitely talk to career services soon.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: goaliechica on December 27, 2008, 12:45:21 PM
I got requests for undergrad transcript for the offers I received before I had any law school grades. 

Well there you go. I guess this does happen sometimes. During the beginning of the 1L job search, before you have law school grades, is the only time that it's likely to matter to anyone at all.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on December 27, 2008, 12:46:09 PM
I got requests for undergrad transcript for the offers I received before I had any law school grades. 

Well there you go. I guess this does happen sometimes. During the beginning of the 1L job search, before you have law school grades, is the only time that it's likely to matter to anyone at all.

I actually had two 2L OCI employers request my undergrad transcript as well. I don't remember who they were, though.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: goaliechica on December 27, 2008, 12:47:25 PM
I got requests for undergrad transcript for the offers I received before I had any law school grades. 

Well there you go. I guess this does happen sometimes. During the beginning of the 1L job search, before you have law school grades, is the only time that it's likely to matter to anyone at all.

I actually had two 2L OCI employers request my undergrad transcript as well. I don't remember who it was, though.

Well, I stand doubly corrected. I hadn't heard of anyone asking for an undergrad transcript before, but now I have.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on December 27, 2008, 12:51:09 PM
It's not terribly common!
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: CST on December 27, 2008, 01:55:06 PM

2) I think the best reason for the overall policy of not using it is not so much how you come off to law firms (I would hope attorneys at law firms are not so thin-skinned that they bristle at the sight of a test score) but that as a profession we want to keep the shelf life of an LSAT score as short as possible.  If LSAT scores were fair game for resumes, everyone would either have to put it on there or have potential employers wonder why it's not there.  It's in the best interest of everyone not to have it on there. 

You have this all wrong. You are entirely missing the point of a resume. You don't exclude an LSAT because you fear the attorneys are thin-skinned. (Do you think we are intimidated by your score?) You exclude it because it says nothing meaningful about what you will contribute to our office. Further, including it if you weren't asked for it, demonstrates that you don't understand what we are looking for. It also suggests to many attorneys that you are immature or egotistical.

The entire purpose of a resume is to market yourself to a potential employer. Many, many people starting out in their careers see it instead as either a dumping ground for everything they have ever done, or some sort of "brag sheet." Yes, you want to portray yourself in a the most favorable light possible, but to do that you need to look at it from the perspective of the employer. There are some times where you may feel the need to include something to "be true to yourself" because you wouldn't want to work for an organization if you felt the need to "hide" part of who you are (people who are heavily involved in certain causes and they run through their work experience, for example." But I hope that your LSAT score is not "who you are." If it is and that is the reason you are including it on your resume, well, you'll wind up where you belong -- but you'll also cut yourself out of the running of a lot of jobs in the process.

Employers have already dictated that the shelf life of the LSAT is limited to the moment you choose your law school. They enforce that policy by dumping the resumes that try to squeeze more milage out of it into the trash.

People talked a little about this earlier in the thread, but what are your thoughts on putting undergrad GPA on your resume?  I assume latin honors should always be there, and I'd imagine a high GPA (3.5+) should probably be there too.  What about average gpas (3.0-3.5), or bad ones GPAs?

Latin honors should be on a resume. GPA is a bit trickier. If you have latin honors, then no. If you don't have latin honors, it will be a judgment call. Generally, the rule of thumb is that if you don't list your GPA it is below a 3.5. So if your GPA is 3.5 or above and you don't have latin honors, then you probably should list it. If it is below 3.5, then you probably don't want to bother, unless you are afraid that an employer would think that it is well below 3.5 and it is actually close to it. If you are well below, then don't list it. You may also choose not to list it on your resume if it is lower than what an employer would assume given where you are attending law school. (If an employer requests the information, though, of course provide it.)

As for what materials to send in, cover letter and resume are standard. Be sure, though, to check out the web sites of all the places you are applying to, as they will often list their requirements. If you are unable to send in one of the required components, don't just not send it. Address in the cover letter why you can't send it in and when you will be able to submit it or what you might be able to provide in the alternative. Make sure that the recruiting coordinator doesn't think you were just careless. Of course give complete contact information so that an employer can get in touch with you if the do want additional materials.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: ,.,.,.;.,.,. on December 27, 2008, 03:10:26 PM
I agree with Cady.  During my lone callback, they seemed pretty impressed with my UG GPA.  They didn't ask for the transcript, but it definitely seemed like a huge point in my favor.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Thistle on December 27, 2008, 05:28:17 PM
ive never been asked either, but 3.5 as mentioned above sounds reasonable.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: ,.,.,.;.,.,. on December 27, 2008, 06:45:53 PM
I put both my GPA and my summa designation next to it.  I also told them I graduated early.  Inter alia, the distinctions made me seem like a very hard worker, and I think they liked that.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: ,.,.,.;.,.,. on December 27, 2008, 07:04:07 PM
I put both my GPA and my summa designation next to it.  I also told them I graduated early.  Inter alia, the distinctions made me seem like a very hard worker, and I think they liked that.

Yeah, that makes sense when you have an amazing GPA.  I just barely cracked summa in one of my degrees, and I was magna in the other, so I just put those and left off the number.

The converse is that I'll probably leave it off if things don't go as well with this degree.  Otherwise, it might say that the degree was easy, or that I became complacent here at Chi, or a number of other things that remind you of information failures and Elements.

I think you did the right thing.  If you look at firm websites, they love putting "magna" and "summa" and stuff, and so that communicates all they need to know.
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: TeresaPinfold on December 28, 2008, 11:33:04 AM
I have the equivalent of cum laude ("with distinction") and a 3.73 GPA, which seems to meet the threshold for inclusion. On the other hand, I have a full scholarship, so they might assume I have better - should I put either GPA or honors on?
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: Connelly on December 29, 2008, 01:59:17 PM
If you don't go to a school that usually attracts people with 179s, your LSAT score will put a red flag on your resume: why isn't this guy at Yale?  

I stopped reading the thread after this post, but I would agree with this concern. I have experienced similar problems in other arenas where the person making the decision does the math and realizes you probably didn't break a 3.0 in undergrad.  Just as they are free to infer that you are especially bright, they can also then infer that you are especially lazy, and there is no forum for you to explain that away until the interview stage (although an "Assumed GPA Discrepancy" addendum on a resume would be entertaining). 

Also consider who one would be separating themselves from with the inclusion of an LSAT score.  Take someone with a 179.  Who are they separating themselves from with that piece of information?  Those that scored 170-178?  Lawyers (people who have taken an LSAT) understand that the difference in the 170's is minimal and may be more tied to what one ate for breakfast that morning or 3 extra weeks of practice than actual intellectual ability.  Is it separating the person who scored a 179 from those that scored in the 160's or below?  If so, that has likely been demonstrated by school selection, or should be obviously demonstrated by one's performance in other arenas if the 179er is actually significantly beyond the lower scorers in the capacity to be an effective lawyer. 

This is a lot easier to see if one has been working before law school - especially if one has worked for a law firm before.  While it is not the end of the world to include this score, the risk will outweigh the possible reward in most situations. 
Title: Re: LSAT on resume
Post by: firewalker on January 10, 2009, 11:51:25 AM
Quote from: IrrX on Yesterday at 05:24:13 PM
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