Law School Discussion

Law Students => Job Search => Topic started by: Dip827 on September 19, 2008, 08:42:53 PM

Title: Complete Failure
Post by: Dip827 on September 19, 2008, 08:42:53 PM
So i graduated this past may and have basically been rejected by everyone, is it time to move onto home depot???
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: OldCraig on September 19, 2008, 10:24:55 PM
I'd say it's time to go....
(http://www.forscom.army.mil/reeng/1-G8/Logo%20Template%20-%20Army%20Strong%201.jpg)
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Changed Name on September 20, 2008, 07:29:24 AM
I wouldn't give up.  You'll land something eventually.  Maybe you need to change up the way you're searching?

If you don't mind me asking, what caliber school did you graduate you from and what was your ranking within that school?  Just sort of curious to see how this is affecting law students across the board.

Good luck, dude.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: TimMitchell on September 20, 2008, 08:38:55 AM
Where did you go to school?
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: raider1218 on September 20, 2008, 08:43:34 AM
Have you been rejected by everyone?  Random midwest D.A. or public defender offices, every gov't gig you can find...?

I love how people act like the DA and PD's office will hire anyone with a JD and a pulse. 
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: jacy85 on September 20, 2008, 09:11:32 AM
Do you have your bar results yet?  Because many of us don't, and at this point, employers won't take on someone until they've passed the bar.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: goaliechica on September 20, 2008, 09:29:12 AM
Quote
I love how people act like the DA and PD's office will hire anyone with a JD and a pulse.

Sorry to crush your notions of superselective average DA/PD offices but it is, without a doubt, easier to land small town PD and DA jobs than biglaw, and it gets easier to land DA/PD job the less desirable the geographic area is.  It matters whether the guy has artifically narrowed his search and is only applying to firms in NYC...

Do you have stats on that? Or is it just anecdotal? I'm not being confrontational - I'm honestly just curious. I know your comment was limited to "random midwest" DA/PD jobs, but I kind of have the impression that it's hard to get jobs in less urban areas if you have no compelling reason for explaining why you want to be there. It has also been my impression that DA/PD jobs actually want to see you express some interest/have some experience on your resume, while firms don't really care, but that's coming from a super-selective area of the world, so it may not apply to smaller towns and non-coastal areas.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: goaliechica on September 20, 2008, 09:51:32 AM
Do you really need stats that an A.D.A. gig is easier to land than biglaw??? 

From my anecdotal experience, in every town I've lived in the D.A. and public defender offices tend to be populated by people who went to fourth tier law schools or graduated bottom of the class from University of Insert State Here. Also, biglaw tends to hire in fall of 2L year and you get your offer in fall of 3L year, so people who are left in the job applicant pool post-graduation tend to be people who didn't get biglaw or midlaw or small law with SA programs.

The only hitch is that you usually need to be admitted to the bar in the state you're applying.  It is hard to get FIRM jobs in less urban areas if you have no compelling reason for explaining why you want to be there, primarily because of the summer associate process because nobody wants to waste $30k on a kid who is going to leave.  (Also, because firms generally over-pay you for the first few years and then expect a return later.) The government is usually cool with the fact that your compelling reason to be there is to get a job.  Also, I'm sure there's some cronyism going on in lots of small towns for those kinds of gigs.

If you want to serve people, that's great. If you want to work in government, that's great. If crimlaw is your thing, that's great.  But highly selective?  With the notable exceptions of a few major urban areas, not really. 

::shrug::

My only experience is in a major urban area, and, anecdotally, those jobs, in this region, seem to be harder to get than BigLaw gigs, in some respects (as in, they might not care as much about grades, but they definitely care about whether or not you can convince them that your interest is genuine). I'm sure you're right as a general rule, though.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: archival on September 20, 2008, 10:21:38 AM
::shrug::

My only experience is in a major urban area, and, anecdotally, those jobs, in this region, seem to be harder to get than BigLaw gigs, in some respects (as in, they might not care as much about grades, but they definitely care about whether or not you can convince them that your interest is genuine). I'm sure you're right as a general rule, though.

My region, too.  Maybe most large urban regions?  This quote from YBR's source sort of supports that: "There are tens of thousands of prosecutor and public defender jobs. Certainly, some are more difficult to get than others, but for the determined job seeker, an expansive search will very likely find success."

Plus, Everybody Knows that my local-unit defender/prosecuter gigs are really only available if you know somebody who knows somebody.  Which just supports Matthies's mantra: networking is critical.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Matthies on September 20, 2008, 10:30:24 AM
Its basically the same here. The only way to get into the PDs office is to intern there for at least two semesters, unpaid. DA is even more selective. I know t14 grads doing both. Nirether the PD nor the DA do OCI here you have to approach them about an internship they donít go looking, so its definitely easier (less work on the students side) to get big law in Denver than it is to get in with the PD/DA. Is this the same everywhere? Hell I donít know I donít check resumes of every cities PD/DAs to make sure they went to t4 or state schools.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: raider1218 on September 20, 2008, 10:57:51 AM
Quote
I love how people act like the DA and PD's office will hire anyone with a JD and a pulse.

Sorry to crush your notions of superselective average DA/PD offices but it is, without a doubt, easier to land small town PD and DA jobs than biglaw, and it gets easier to land DA/PD job the less desirable the geographic area is.  It matters whether the guy has artifically narrowed his search and is only applying to firms in NYC...

You elitist attitude is perfect for the biglaw sweatshop which has no doubt made you an offer of permanent employment.  For the record, I have no desire to ever work in the DA/PD's office and I am actually a practicing attorney at a successful law firm in small town America.

As far as whether it is easier to land a biglaw job, you might want to define your criteria because the last time I checked the career services offices at T14s were nothing more than placement agencies for biglaw in major markets.  I'm not sure how hard it is to get a biglaw job, if that is what you truly desire, once you have achieved a 170 on the LSAT.   
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: jacy85 on September 20, 2008, 11:32:45 AM
I don't think YBR was elitist - it's a fact of life. In Atlanta, it's extremely, extremely rare to get a DA position in any of the metro counties right out of law school.  Competition is fierce because many grads either (a) need to make the salary offered in metro areas to afford loan payments; (b) don't want to move out to a rural county where they have no family or contacts; or (c) simply hate the idea of living in a small town in a rural area. The only person I know who got a job at a metro area DA office interned for 2 summers and got very lucky in that a position was open when this person graduated.  

So if you're looking to work in a metro area, Biglaw is more likely for recent grads than PD/DA.  All of the other people I know that have gotten DA positions right out of school took jobs in counties that are not considered metro, and some are quite far away from the city.  Once you get away from metro areas, PD/DA is much easier to land if for no other reason the applicant pool is smaller for the reasons above.  It's less competition and not because the jobs are in some way subpar. 
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Miss P on September 20, 2008, 11:57:07 AM
Also, biglaw tends to hire in fall of 2L year and you get your offer in fall of 3L year, so people who are left in the job applicant pool post-graduation tend to be people who didn't get biglaw or midlaw or small law with SA programs.

Or the people who didn't apply for those positions because they planned on going into public service.

I agree with the others here.  You may be right that there are lots of government and public defender positions available to recent grads without stellar credentials in small towns in some parts of the country.  There was nothing wrong with suggesting that the OP look into these jobs.  In big cities and on the federal level, however, public defender and prosecutor positions and, to a lesser extent, other government attorney positions, are very competitive.  I don't know how you would draw the comparison between biglaw competition and public sector competition (absent more narrowing factors), but you certainly haven't offered any evidence that private sector hiring is more competitive than public sector hiring in general.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Miss P on September 20, 2008, 12:40:08 PM
Quote
but you certainly haven't offered any evidence that private sector hiring is more competitive than public sector hiring in general.

I didn't make that claim (and certainly wouldn't sector-wide).  My only claim is that biglaw (Vault100, generally) is more selective than the average small town DA/Public Defender job. 

Fair enough.  :)  Your argument about the competitiveness of the post-biglaw-hiring job pool seemed to suggest otherwise.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Dip827 on September 22, 2008, 02:14:16 PM
sorry for the late response i went to Rutgers - Camden and i'm still waiting for my bar results
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Dip827 on September 22, 2008, 02:16:59 PM
I went to Rutgers-Camden, graduated with a 3.36(even though not great - thought i'd have something by now) and still waiting on bar results
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Dip827 on September 22, 2008, 02:17:59 PM
I went to Rutgers-Camden, graduated with a 3.36(even though not great - thought i'd have something by now) and still waiting on bar results
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: TimMitchell on September 22, 2008, 02:33:14 PM
I went to Rutgers-Camden, graduated with a 3.36(even though not great - thought i'd have something by now) and still waiting on bar results

I wish you the best of luck! Where does that put you as far as class rank, with a GPA like that I'm suprised you're having trouble. Have you tried looking into places like lower Delaware or rural Pennsylvania?
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Dip827 on September 22, 2008, 03:56:43 PM
camden doesn't rank outside the top 15% so i know for sure i wasn't in the top 15%. I've looked into DE and PA but still shooting blanks
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: TimMitchell on September 22, 2008, 03:58:21 PM
camden doesn't rank outside the top 15% so i know for sure i wasn't in the top 15%. I've looked into DE and PA but still shooting blanks

Really sucks, I hope you find something soon. I'm a 0L so the only advice I can give you is what has been said on these boards, Matthies had a great thread about networking and finding a job that many graduates and students appreciated.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: TeeTwenty on September 22, 2008, 10:16:59 PM
I went to Rutgers-Camden, graduated with a 3.36(even though not great - thought i'd have something by now) and still waiting on bar results

You prob. won't get many bites until bar results are out.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: chevelle on October 01, 2008, 12:45:25 PM
Eh, I am a 3L at a T2, top 12%, on the editorial board of law review, masters degree, ivy league bachelor's degree, and I can't even get interviews for first-year associate positions.... :(
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Bizarro Jerry on October 01, 2008, 01:29:48 PM
I thought this thread was going to be about Palin's performance in tomorrow's debate.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: StrictlyLiable on October 06, 2008, 06:04:12 PM
Quote
I love how people act like the DA and PD's office will hire anyone with a JD and a pulse.

Sorry to crush your notions of superselective average DA/PD offices but it is, without a doubt, easier to land small town PD and DA jobs than biglaw, and it gets easier to land DA/PD job the less desirable the geographic area is.  It matters whether the guy has artifically narrowed his search and is only applying to firms in NYC...

ummm . . . this is completely and utterly false. Right now, in the state of Pennsyvlania there are exactly 3 ADA positions open and one PD position open. In the rural counties like mine, DA slots are taken by those who have been in private practice and litigating for years. There are no jobs out there right now, period.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: goaliechica on October 06, 2008, 08:18:46 PM
Quote
I love how people act like the DA and PD's office will hire anyone with a JD and a pulse.

Sorry to crush your notions of superselective average DA/PD offices but it is, without a doubt, easier to land small town PD and DA jobs than biglaw, and it gets easier to land DA/PD job the less desirable the geographic area is.  It matters whether the guy has artifically narrowed his search and is only applying to firms in NYC...

ummm . . . this is completely and utterly false. Right now, in the state of Pennsyvlania there are exactly 3 ADA positions open and one PD position open. In the rural counties like mine, DA slots are taken by those who have been in private practice and litigating for years. There are no jobs out there right now, period.

Interesting  :)
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: thorc954 on October 06, 2008, 08:53:48 PM
Have you considered applying to do public interest work or being a contract attorney?
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Miss P on October 06, 2008, 09:03:07 PM
Have you considered applying to do public interest work or being a contract attorney?

What kind of "public interest work" do you think the OP could get?
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: thorc954 on October 07, 2008, 05:44:55 AM
Something at a small non-profit.  I know the big non-profits are extremely hard to get into, but there has to be something that would be interested in taking on the OP>
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Miss P on October 07, 2008, 07:20:18 AM
I'm not trying to discourage the OP, but JD positions at small non-profits are extremely competitive, and not just because the economy makes it difficult for them to hire right now.  There are very few non-profits that will use their scarce resources to hire someone who hasn't already demonstrated a commitment to the issue or at least to public service.  The (apparently widespread) notion that it's easy to land non-profit jobs is extremely out of touch. 
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: intel on October 07, 2008, 08:41:25 AM
I'm not trying to discourage the OP, but JD positions at small non-profits are extremely competitive, and not just because the economy makes it difficult for them to hire right now.  There are very few non-profits that will use their scarce resources to hire someone who hasn't already demonstrated a commitment to the issue or at least to public service.  The (apparently widespread) notion that it's easy to land non-profit jobs is extremely out of touch. 

why don't you tell us what jobs are not competitive.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Miss P on October 07, 2008, 09:01:31 AM
why don't you tell us what jobs are not competitive.

I think I agree with your point: it's not easy to get a job (as an attorney or not) these days.  I was just responding to some posters who seem to think the non-profit sector is where all the losers go. 

Since the OP has passed the NJ bar, I would recommend looking into NJ and Delaware state clerkships for next year and trying to work as a contract attorney in the meantime.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Matthies on October 07, 2008, 09:12:16 AM
I'm not trying to discourage the OP, but JD positions at small non-profits are extremely competitive, and not just because the economy makes it difficult for them to hire right now.  There are very few non-profits that will use their scarce resources to hire someone who hasn't already demonstrated a commitment to the issue or at least to public service.  The (apparently widespread) notion that it's easy to land non-profit jobs is extremely out of touch. 

why don't you tell us what jobs are not competitive.

The least competitive jobs are the ones no one else knows about. 
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: goaliechica on October 07, 2008, 09:18:10 AM
Something at a small non-profit.  I know the big non-profits are extremely hard to get into, but there has to be something that would be interested in taking on the OP>

Yeah, not to belabor the point, but it doesn't even make sense that it would be easy to get a full-time paying job at a small non-profit. They have even fewer resources than the "big" non-profits (I put that in scare quotes, because even the most nationally-known non-profits don't tend to have more than a single-digit number of full-time, paid attorneys in any given office). There are simply far fewer jobs, period, in public interest work than there are in other areas, because, you know, it doesn't generate money, and a lot of people think they want to do it.

I wonder if maybe this notion that it's easy to score a public interest job may stems from the fact that it's not as difficult to get unpaid internships during law school at a lot of public interest organizations, particularly the smaller, less well-known ones, and it seems like something that people do their 1L summers before they are competitive for firm jobs. This is all true, but it certainly doesn't mean they are going to have the funding or the desire to hire you for real after law school. Many of these orgs don't hire even one new person per year, and there are many people who spend most of law school trying to position themselves to be that hire.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Dip827 on October 07, 2008, 09:26:25 AM
I'm going with a couple of agencies right now but still nothing.  I've also tried PI jobs but no one is biting
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: thorc954 on October 07, 2008, 05:58:14 PM
The OP applied to firms and clerkships.  That leaves government, which has already been mentioned, and public interest.  No one suggested that he apply for public interest jobs.  Not every non-profit job is difficult to get.  Not every job is as competitive as a Big Firm, or even a mid size firm.  Smaller non-profits fall into this not as competitive group.  Obviously, in every sector there are competitive jobs (DOJ Honors, Big Law/mid size law, and the NAACP/(something else good)).  Anyway, then there are easier jobs to obtain like local DA/PD jobs (definitely easier to get than one in NYC or DC assuming you have some connection to the town), smaller law firms (5-10 attorneys, assuming they need help), and smaller non-profits.  Not every job is as competitive.  The TTT and TTTT crowd has to work somewhere, and all the posters on this thread (with the exception of a few) basically act like all these jobs take top grades from top cities.  I doubt very highly that OP couldnt go into Camden and get a job at a non-profit helping indigents or something (I dont know about any North Jersey cities, just souther Jersey).  Major cities always have non-profits that no one has heard of.  With the OP's great local school and connections to the state, he/she could convince a place to hire him/her doing this work.

Terribly paid non-profits who no one has heard of are objectively easier to work for than good paying non-profits.

Anyway Dip827, I feel for you trying to obtain a job.  The economy will hopefully recover soon and you will be able to get something.  In the mean time, look into contract attorney jobs if you need the money or keep plugging along till you get some bites.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Miss P on October 08, 2008, 10:48:44 PM
The OP applied to firms and clerkships.  That leaves government, which has already been mentioned, and public interest.  No one suggested that he apply for public interest jobs.  Not every non-profit job is difficult to get.  Not every job is as competitive as a Big Firm, or even a mid size firm.  Smaller non-profits fall into this not as competitive group.  Obviously, in every sector there are competitive jobs (DOJ Honors, Big Law/mid size law, and the NAACP/(something else good)).  Anyway, then there are easier jobs to obtain like local DA/PD jobs (definitely easier to get than one in NYC or DC assuming you have some connection to the town), smaller law firms (5-10 attorneys, assuming they need help), and smaller non-profits.  Not every job is as competitive.  The TTT and TTTT crowd has to work somewhere, and all the posters on this thread (with the exception of a few) basically act like all these jobs take top grades from top cities.  I doubt very highly that OP couldnt go into Camden and get a job at a non-profit helping indigents or something (I dont know about any North Jersey cities, just souther Jersey).  Major cities always have non-profits that no one has heard of.  With the OP's great local school and connections to the state, he/she could convince a place to hire him/her doing this work.

Terribly paid non-profits who no one has heard of are objectively easier to work for than good paying non-profits.

I think you're confusing two things: the credentials required for a job and the competitiveness of the job.  The kinds of jobs you describe are extremely competitive for precisely the same reasons you identify: there are not very many openings, and there are hundreds of people academically qualified to fill them.  On top of that, there are students from top schools and top students from lower-tier schools who actively seek those jobs, even if they might have credentials required for more elite jobs.  Moreover, given the low pay and losing odds of non-profit legal work, most organizations will focus their searches on people who have a demonstrated commitment to the issue or who have experience working in a similar field.  They want to make sure that the people in whom they invest their limited resources will stick it out in tough conditions, and dedication to the cause is one test of that.  The non-profit sector is extremely competitive, from top to bottom.

I'm not saying any of this to discourage the OP.  I just want to make it clear that non-profits -- small or large -- are not way stations for otherwise unemployed or unemployable attorneys any more than other employers are.  The dynamics of the market are just somewhat different for the non-profit, for-profit, and public sectors.

Anyway Dip827, I feel for you trying to obtain a job.  The economy will hopefully recover soon and you will be able to get something.  In the mean time, look into contract attorney jobs if you need the money or keep plugging along till you get some bites.

Likewise, Dip, I wish you luck.  Something will come through the pipeline eventually!
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: thorc954 on October 09, 2008, 06:47:00 AM
Miss P, I am not confusing the two things. Obviously all legal jobs are competitive, but some less so.  The way you comment on everything, you would think that only the top 5% at every school is able to get any possible job.  That is simply not the case.

I second what YBR says on this subject, and I will not continue to argue this issue because there is no way that every legal job out there is equally competitive.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Miss P on October 09, 2008, 08:19:19 AM
You're missing the point: I'm not talking about whether people with elite credentials work in these jobs (though you'd be surprised at the number of places you'd find them) but the number of openings versus the number of candidates.  There is a huge number of people applying for these jobs -- regardless of whether they graduated magna from HLS or at the bottom of their class from the local law school -- and these are organizations that have very few resources with which to create positions.  It smacks of elitism to view the difficulty of securing a job solely in terms of the number of "brilliant" people there or the "top 5%."  It's difficult to get jobs because there aren't very many and there are a lot of people looking.  This is particularly true in the non-profit sector where most organizations are poor and have their hiring budgets further limited by the demands of charitable giving ratings (which rate non-profits by, among other things, the percentage of their resources that go to administrative costs).


EDIT
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Miss P on October 09, 2008, 03:14:52 PM
Smacking of elitism?  You keep telling us that we're confused and missing the point, but I'm not really sure that you know what you're talking about.  There are LOTS of crappy towns in this country and LOTS of nonprofits in these crappy towns.  And many of the nonprofits aren't that poor; they just try to keep overhead/salaries low because of the whole "non-profit" thing.  It is not difficult to get ALL of these jobs. I have reviewed the applications for JD-optional nonprofit gigs; there are not that many applications, and most of them don't have JDs or other requested qualifications. A 3.36 from Rutgers-Camden should let him land SOME job in the public interest sector. 

I don't really feel as if I am in a position to judge what towns are crappy, but I don't think there are "LOTS" of entry-level job openings for attorneys in legal non-profits in any towns, crappy or no.  They're certainly not showing up on my career services database, on PSLawNet, on Idealist, etc.  A lot of legal non-profits don't even hire except for through fellowships.  So where are these jobs, and where are they listed?

My experience doing hiring at a legal non-profit is very different from yours.  For instance, I found that when I placed an ad for a temporary JD position at my former employer on one online database, I had over a hundred applications within a few days.  (I ended up getting over 500 applications before the deadline.)  Of course, we can probably agree that New York is not a crappy town, and my employer was a pretty well-known outfit, but this was in much better times for non-profits (2004), and we had to reject over 100 qualified (and many more marginally qualified or unqualified) people.

As for the bolded, I don't really understand what you mean.  Non-profits would gladly spend more money on hiring good people if they had the resources and capacity and if they weren't limited by charitable givings ratings.  But even if you think they are just crying wolf when they say they can't afford to hire, doesn't this still indicate that there aren't very many jobs to be had?

Finally, yes, I think your and thorc's posts have been a bit elitist, from the fact that you analyze competitiveness solely in terms of credentials to your references to "truly unexceptional people with crap resumes" and "crappy towns."  It's not helping the OP to pretend that it should be easy to get a job.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: thorc954 on October 09, 2008, 03:56:37 PM
Its not pretending like it will be easy to get a job.  I think YBR and I were both just saying that OP should look at some non-profits if he/she werent already doing so.  It is not easy to get a non-profit job, even at a small, unknown non-profit, but it is easier than getting jobs elsewhere. 

You come across as if you believe that every legal job is equally difficult to obtain.  This is simply not the case.  Unqualified people work somewhere.  This isnt to say that they are all in non-profits as many are probably in the small firms, government jobs, and even large law firms.  The point is just that the OP, with good grades from a good school may be able to find something from a smaller less known non-profit.  That is all.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Drew P. Bottom on October 09, 2008, 10:14:14 PM
To Original Poster -

I know someone very well who had a similar situation. No one will bite until you pass. Try applying for legal temp jobs (and maybe even non-legal temp jobs) in the meantime. Also, keep applying for state clerkships where you have some sort of connection. Then., after you pass the bar, have several more applications ready and send them out.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: This is wrong. on October 09, 2008, 10:24:13 PM
Quote
but you certainly haven't offered any evidence that private sector hiring is more competitive than public sector hiring in general.

I didn't make that claim (and certainly wouldn't sector-wide).  My only claim is that biglaw (Vault100, generally) is more selective than the average small town DA/Public Defender job. 

I don't really see the point of making this claim. 

"Hey, Joe, I guess your alternative to not getting any offers from the 10 firms you interviewed with here in New York City is just to move to Elk City, Oklahoma and work in the PD office there.  Guess NY isn't big enough for the both of us.  Sorry ol' chap.  I suggest Ebay and Craigslist to sell all your *&^%."


Most people study in a certain place to be able to work nearby (if they aren't studying there because of particular career concerns, e.g. a good shot at BigLaw or academia or whatever).
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Miss P on October 09, 2008, 10:38:34 PM
Crappy nonprofits in crappy towns don't usually post on career services databases, PSLawNet or Idealist. HTH.  Try--shocking--newspapers and local magazines. And the "I don't really feel as if I am in a position to judge what towns are crappy" line? Geeze. 

Your experience of getting 500 applications was in 1) a town where there are lots of people, 2) a desirable location, 3) a town with tons of law schools, 4) with a well-known non-profit, and 5) posted in an online database. 

As for the bolded, I was talking about charity rankings.

And how in the world is me saying that there are jobs for people with 3.3s from Rutgers-Camden elitist?  You're the one making it seem like a nonprofit gig is impossible... 

Your position is elitist because you keep claiming that the jobs you and your peers wouldn't choose in places you wouldn't choose to live are a dime a dozen merely because most of the people who take them or live there don't have your credentials.  It's not elitist to acknowledge that the OP has a tough road to hoe -- not because s/he has a 3.3 from Rutgers-Camden, but because there aren't very many JD jobs out there (and most of us, after taking out thousands of dollars of loans for law school, need to get JD jobs in order to pay back our loans and/or to qualify for loan repayment programs).  The EIC of the law review at my school is having trouble getting interviews.  Her credentials are impeccable, but the jobs are still scarce.  (She has an offer from her top-five firm, btw, but she wants to do non-profit work.) This is what I mean by competitive.  There are a lot of people competing for a small number of spaces.  It has nothing to do with credentials. 

And with respect to the bolded, if you agree with me, then you also must agree that there are very few positions, no?

Its not pretending like it will be easy to get a job.  I think YBR and I were both just saying that OP should look at some non-profits if he/she werent already doing so.  It is not easy to get a non-profit job, even at a small, unknown non-profit, but it is easier than getting jobs elsewhere. 

You come across as if you believe that every legal job is equally difficult to obtain.  This is simply not the case.  Unqualified people work somewhere.  This isnt to say that they are all in non-profits as many are probably in the small firms, government jobs, and even large law firms.  The point is just that the OP, with good grades from a good school may be able to find something from a smaller less known non-profit.  That is all.

I don't know that you have provided any evidence -- anecdotal or otherwise -- that getting a non-profit job is "easier than getting jobs elsewhere."  Meanwhile, goaliechica has offered a logical explanation of why this wouldn't be the case, and I have rounded this out with my experience as both an employee with some responsibility for JD hiring and a 3L seeking non-profit employment. 

I also don't know why you keep referring to "unqualified" people.  The OP's credentials make him/her perfectly qualified, as are lots of people who are having trouble finding jobs. 

The point is that the OP isn't a "complete failure."  These are rough times.  The non-profit sector is particularly hard hit in an economic crisis.  If you have specific ideas for the OP, that's great, but your assumption that non-profit jobs are easier to come by than the jobs you want is not very helpful.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Miss P on October 09, 2008, 10:39:33 PM
To Original Poster -

I know someone very well who had a similar situation. No one will bite until you pass. Try applying for legal temp jobs (and maybe even non-legal temp jobs) in the meantime. Also, keep applying for state clerkships where you have some sort of connection. Then., after you pass the bar, have several more applications ready and send them out.

This advice sounds sensible to me.   :-\
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: This is wrong. on October 09, 2008, 10:52:33 PM
Its not pretending like it will be easy to get a job.  I think YBR and I were both just saying that OP should look at some non-profits if he/she werent already doing so.  It is not easy to get a non-profit job, even at a small, unknown non-profit, but it is easier than getting jobs elsewhere. 

You come across as if you believe that every legal job is equally difficult to obtain.  This is simply not the case.  Unqualified people work somewhere.  This isnt to say that they are all in non-profits as many are probably in the small firms, government jobs, and even large law firms.  The point is just that the OP, with good grades from a good school may be able to find something from a smaller less known non-profit.  That is all.

No.  The point is that neither you nor YBR have provided evidence to support this assumption.

It makes sense (intuitively, anecdotally, and statistically given the type of employment and resources involved) that it's just as difficult to get a job at BigLaw as it is to get one for a desirable near-urban non-profit, for different reasons.  Neither of you have sufficiently countered this assertion of Miss P's.

The only counter you've given that may hold some validity is that it's easier to get a job with a non-profit or PD office in a small town somewhere than it is to get any position anywhere in a large metropolitan center.  However, an argument has been put forth to counter that, one which makes sense: in those places, offices prefer to hire laterals with experience before they hire new grads who will require training and lots of patience.  This rings even stronger in our current economic climate -- fewer positions, less funding available to train noobs, more experienced lawyers losing their spots at firms or trying to get the @#!* out of the stifling economic climate of those big cities.

I don't see how it's obvious that it should be easier to get these jobs than other jobs, neither objectively nor subjectively.  Even "crappy" non-profits are extremely constrained by funding concerns and rarely take in new hires; they have small offices for a reason.  It is a similar story for PD/DA offices in smaller regions.

I'm not saying these jobs don't exist.  I'm saying that P's argument makes sense, and your scoffing dismissal of it doesn't.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: This is wrong. on October 09, 2008, 10:57:31 PM
Oh, and for the record, you two have been elitist pricks since you first stepped electronic foot on this board.  So don't go pretending you're not.  Own it.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Drew P. Bottom on October 09, 2008, 10:58:14 PM
Oh and RE my earlier post, the person I know found some temporary work after passing the bar and found a clerkship soon thereafter, so all is fine. Same can happen for you.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: thorc954 on October 10, 2008, 07:06:24 AM
All I was saying to the OP is that he/she should look into public interest as well.  It turns out he/she already did.  Therefore, the point is moot.

I don't think anything I have said since I got on this board is elitist, and either way, I dont care.  The topic of most of my conversations on here is big law because that is the only area of law that interests me.

That said, I forgot about craigslist.  OP, you may want to look on there for some work.  I have a friend that got his job off there (he summered somewhere than the firm merged and they didnt take his class).

Anyway, Miss P., I never said that the OP had bad grades.  I think he/her gpa put him/her over the curve for the school and probably closer to the top 30%.  Anyway, I have no experience searching for public interest jobs, but I was suggesting that OP look into them.  I think he/she has a connection to jersey as they live and went to school there and could likely find something there if they applied. 

Anyway, I am not going to bicker back and forth about this anymore since none of this is really helping the OP anyway. 
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Miss P on October 10, 2008, 07:35:36 AM
All I was saying to the OP is that he/she should look into public interest as well.  It turns out he/she already did.  Therefore, the point is moot.

I don't think anything I have said since I got on this board is elitist, and either way, I dont care.  The topic of most of my conversations on here is big law because that is the only area of law that interests me.

That said, I forgot about craigslist.  OP, you may want to look on there for some work.  I have a friend that got his job off there (he summered somewhere than the firm merged and they didnt take his class).

Anyway, Miss P., I never said that the OP had bad grades.  I think he/her gpa put him/her over the curve for the school and probably closer to the top 30%.  Anyway, I have no experience searching for public interest jobs, but I was suggesting that OP look into them.  I think he/she has a connection to jersey as they live and went to school there and could likely find something there if they applied. 

Anyway, I am not going to bicker back and forth about this anymore since none of this is really helping the OP anyway. 

Okay, likewise.  I agree that this probably isn't very helpful.  I just think that it looks a lot like self-congratulation when people who admit that their only interest is biglaw and that they have no experience looking for public interest jobs hop into a thread with an unfounded claim that public interest employment is less competitive than the private sector.  Your craigslist suggestion is a good one.

(I didn't accuse you of saying that the OP had bad grades, btw.)
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Matthies on October 10, 2008, 07:42:34 AM
All I was saying to the OP is that he/she should look into public interest as well.  It turns out he/she already did.  Therefore, the point is moot.

I don't think anything I have said since I got on this board is elitist, and either way, I dont care.  The topic of most of my conversations on here is big law because that is the only area of law that interests me.

That said, I forgot about craigslist.  OP, you may want to look on there for some work.  I have a friend that got his job off there (he summered somewhere than the firm merged and they didnt take his class).

Anyway, Miss P., I never said that the OP had bad grades.  I think he/her gpa put him/her over the curve for the school and probably closer to the top 30%.  Anyway, I have no experience searching for public interest jobs, but I was suggesting that OP look into them.  I think he/she has a connection to jersey as they live and went to school there and could likely find something there if they applied. 

Anyway, I am not going to bicker back and forth about this anymore since none of this is really helping the OP anyway. 

  I just think that it looks a lot like self-congratulation when people who admit that their only interest is biglaw and that they have no experience looking for public interest jobs hop into a thread with an unfounded claim that public interest employment is less competitive than the private sector. 

But that how LSD works = OP seeks advice about something ---> people respond who have never done that thing, been to that city, tried that method with advice in absolutes ďmust/all/everyoneĒ about OP prospects --> someone posts who has done everything the OP asked about get ridiculed by know-it-alls. Talking out of ones ass like an expert in something they have never tried is what counts as advice on here.  ::)

PS. Iíll also add that first semester of 2L, from my experience, is when this ďI know how everything works now and I'm an expertĒ mentality reaches its pinnacle. One of the few things Iíll say in absolutes is that there is 100% certainty that you donít know how everything works. I was also as guilty as anyone here in doing this.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: thorc954 on October 10, 2008, 08:30:15 AM
All I was saying to the OP is that he/she should look into public interest as well.  It turns out he/she already did.  Therefore, the point is moot.

I don't think anything I have said since I got on this board is elitist, and either way, I dont care.  The topic of most of my conversations on here is big law because that is the only area of law that interests me.

That said, I forgot about craigslist.  OP, you may want to look on there for some work.  I have a friend that got his job off there (he summered somewhere than the firm merged and they didnt take his class).

Anyway, Miss P., I never said that the OP had bad grades.  I think he/her gpa put him/her over the curve for the school and probably closer to the top 30%.  Anyway, I have no experience searching for public interest jobs, but I was suggesting that OP look into them.  I think he/she has a connection to jersey as they live and went to school there and could likely find something there if they applied. 

Anyway, I am not going to bicker back and forth about this anymore since none of this is really helping the OP anyway. 

Okay, likewise.  I agree that this probably isn't very helpful.  I just think that it looks a lot like self-congratulation when people who admit that their only interest is biglaw and that they have no experience looking for public interest jobs hop into a thread with an unfounded claim that public interest employment is less competitive than the private sector.  Your craigslist suggestion is a good one.

(I didn't accuse you of saying that the OP had bad grades, btw.)

I agree 100%.  That is why I didnt pretend like public interest was less competitive.  I just said that some public interest is inevitably less competitive just like some private sector stuff is less competitive.  I was just making sure that OP was exploring public interest as well as private sector.

Anyway, I hope you all have a great day :)
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Dip827 on October 10, 2008, 10:15:34 AM
thanks for all the comments i really appreciate them. 
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Dip827 on October 10, 2008, 01:57:05 PM
so i've been using:

lawcrossing
craigslist
rutgers career site
pslaw
monster
careerbuilder
robert half
hirecounsel
blind resumes
other law schools career sites

are there any other sites worth looking at??
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Matthies on October 10, 2008, 02:16:06 PM
so i've been using:

lawcrossing
craigslist
rutgers career site
pslaw
monster
careerbuilder
robert half
hirecounsel
blind resumes
other law schools career sites

are there any other sites worth looking at??

You should be going to local bar association meetings. I went to a lunch yesterday, met three new people, and a lunch today and got another job offer. There was 1 other law student between the two of these events and about 100 lawyers. Youíre like a kid in a candy store, lawyers love talking to law students about themselves and what they do, it makes them feel young again and they all have law school in common with you. These people have jobs to offer or likely know somebody who has a job to offer. They are only going to advertise jobs on schools websites or god forbid Craigslist if they canít find someone through word of mouth recommendations.

Advertised jobs are often that way because no one wants them. Go were the lawyers are. Yes its extremely uncomfortable at first. Do it anyway, you will meet people if you force yourself to go. I am still nervous and Iíve been doing this for years. I almost turned around left today because this was a new group and I did not know anyone there. Turns out as soon as I said ďIím a law studentĒ the president of the bar association group where I was asked me to sit at her table. She introduced to everyone,  two of who happened to be adjunct profs at my school and one was an alumni that was on my journal, that led to a conversation which led to ď I need some help would you be interested in working a few hours a week for me and see how it goes?Ē I had no other competition because no one else knew about this opportunity.

I mean I know Iím speaking a foreign language when I try to tell people maybe you should join and go to the professional organization of your profession, but bare with me its makes, I dunno, intuitive sense that you might actually meeting working freaking lawyers there. Go figure? Who would you rather hire someone you have met personally or some random person who cold mailed you a resume. Yes, its rocket science I know.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Miss P on October 10, 2008, 02:40:32 PM
Great advice, Matthies!

I would also suggest looking on state websites (there's usually a section about government job opportunities -- and in some states, as in NJ, local listings are included), newspapers, the Law Journal (if there is a local one for your area), and idealist.org.  Also, here's one good job listing from NY: http://www.dhr.state.ny.us/pdf/human_rights_specialist_1.pdf.  It's a JD-optional job, but it pays decently and it could be great experience.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Dip827 on October 10, 2008, 03:03:29 PM
thanks matthies - i've tried a couple of county bar associations, alumni web-boards and some other bar organizations i'm part of. 
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: This is wrong. on October 10, 2008, 08:07:32 PM
I'll second Matthies' advice.  Bar associations and volunteer work at places where there were only a few law students led to three different employment/internship offers for me in my first year, as well as a huge network of people who were sincerely interested in my success (I must be a good schmooze or something).  It's like lawyers are so despondent about their own lives, they either want to see you fail miserably or see you become an astounding success under their wing.  Try to find the latter group.  hahaha
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Matthies on October 11, 2008, 08:24:50 AM
thanks matthies - i've tried a couple of county bar associations, alumni web-boards and some other bar organizations i'm part of. 

Going once or twice is not enough you have to regularly attend, and you have to be social. Make it part of your regular routine and just go. You will meet people who can help you if you go on a regular basis. Pick 2-3 sections that interest you and go regulalarly, keep using your other search methods as well, but start now making contacts.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Miss P on October 11, 2008, 08:59:00 AM
Quote
Your position is elitist because you keep claiming that the jobs you and your peers wouldn't choose in places you wouldn't choose to live are a dime a dozen merely because most of the people who take them or live there don't have your credentials.

I wouldn't choose to live in a crappy town because I've ALREADY lived in a crappy town.  And it is objectively crappy. I don't know whether my peers would choose those jobs or not.  Additionally, I'm going for biglaw, but I am giving advice on this thread because it's ADVICE.  OP can take it or not.  As I've said, I've hired for these positions, and I know many people (including my own family members) who've graduated from T4s or middle-of-the-class at lower T2 or T3 who start out in not-so-competitive government or public interest jobs in places people don't want to live.

The only thing "elitist" positions I've taken on this board are that some jobs are better than others, and it's easier to get jobs if you have a good GPA at a top law school.

Because it's "ADVICE" it can't be a little smug and elitist?  Whatever keeps your healthy self-image alive.  To me, describing the things you don't want to do and the places you don't want to live as "crappy" speaks for itself.

I think you and I have agreed earlier that there are very few non-profit JD jobs available right now (due to charity ratings or otherwise), and the pool of qualified applicants for the less selective among these jobs is huge. Thus, the notion that the jobs are "less competitive" than private sector jobs is just not realistic.  The OP may be more qualified for them (on the basis of his/her credentials) than s/he is for your firm where everyone's pants break at the right point, but that's another issue altogether.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Miss P on October 11, 2008, 09:40:26 AM
Oh, come on.  "Oh, I wouldn't know a crappy town."  We all know that everyone in NYC thinks EVERY other town is crappy! 

The only thing we could probably agree on is that this conversation is no longer productive.  Because you've turned from discussing the topic to attacking me personally. So let's consider this one over.  I don't feel like arguing with you about "whatever keeps my healthy self-image alive."

I do agree that this isn't productive.  I'm sorry if my comments appeared unduly personal.  I intended only to question some of the assumptions you were making -- ones that seemed fairly elitist to me.  It's pretty rich for someone who talks about how crappy other people's towns and jobs are to get sensitive about being told she has a "healthy self-image" though. :)
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Matthies on October 11, 2008, 12:19:26 PM
Oh, come on.  "Oh, I wouldn't know a crappy town."  We all know that everyone in NYC thinks EVERY other town is crappy! 


NYC on the top of the list of places they would never want to live, like me. Its too big, too expensive and costs too much to own a car there. Here for less than 400k I have an extremely nice place downtown, I can afford to own two cars, go hiking, kayaking, mountain bike riding all in the city limits and can be in Vail in two hours. Cost of living here compared to salary is greater than there. Personally Iíd put NYC, LA and DC on my crappy city list as Iíd have to give up too many of things I enjoy to live there in some over priced apartment the size of my master bathroom. Its all relative one - manís crappy is another manís heaven. 
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Matthies on October 11, 2008, 01:26:53 PM
That was a joke, Matthies, re: NYC elitism.  I don't want to live in DC, LA, NYC either.  But Denver is also not really on people's "crappy town" list.  I'm thinking Boonies, Arkansas.

Yea that would be on my crappy list too. Although some people love small town life
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Dip827 on November 03, 2008, 05:26:31 PM
passed the NJ bar now waiting for NY
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Miss P on November 03, 2008, 06:00:09 PM
Congrats, Dip!
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: jacy85 on November 03, 2008, 06:02:30 PM
Congrats!  One down, and one to go!
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: botbot on November 05, 2008, 10:29:24 AM
I read a good chunk of the thread, but may have missed this...

OP - what are you doing with your unemployed time right now?
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Dip827 on November 05, 2008, 05:54:16 PM
I read a good chunk of the thread, but may have missed this...

OP - what are you doing with your unemployed time right now?

other than searching, nothing much just doing a little reading. Life is pretty stagnant right now. 
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Miss P on November 05, 2008, 06:43:30 PM
Did you consider applying for the thing I posted at the NYS AG's Office?
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Dip827 on November 05, 2008, 07:10:11 PM
I'll def. look into it P
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: coquita on November 21, 2008, 08:22:42 PM
Also doing volunteer work for a legal aid type office may be good too, help you brush up on some legal skills under the advice of a supervising attorney while looking for a job...
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: Johnie Awesome on December 03, 2008, 12:23:56 PM
I don't know if you've considered this, but maybe you should look into the various courts in NJ and PA.  There's a lot of judges in those two states; and, from what I've gathered, most people are quite happy working there.  You're not going to get wealthy clerking for a year, but it can open many doors for you.
Title: Re: Complete Failure
Post by: vap on December 03, 2008, 12:44:58 PM
tag