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Law Students => Job Search => Topic started by: superman10 on August 14, 2008, 09:18:02 AM

Title: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: superman10 on August 14, 2008, 09:18:02 AM
I have gotten a callback interview. I wore a suit to the first screening interview 2 weeks ago, and my callback is scheduled for next week. I have been meaning to buy a second suit but just haven't been able to, and now I'm going out of town for a few days, meaning that I probably won't have a new suit ready for my callback interview next week.

My suit is not loud or noticeable...it's a standard conservative suit.  Should I wear the same suit to the callback if I change the shirt/tie combo? I will probably see the 2 people who screened me, so those are the only two people that could potentially remember.

I have always felt you should wear a different suit to the callback, but a lot of my friends say I could wear the same suit, just with a different shirt/tie, and no one will notice.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: meggo on August 14, 2008, 09:30:18 AM
why? They certainly won't remember, esp. as it's an interchangeable conservative suit and it seems silly to rush such something that depends entirely on fit. Wear a different shirt and tie or a collar with a different spread and a different tie. If it was a couple days later, I could maybe understand, but definitely not two weeks.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: NeverTrustKlingons on August 14, 2008, 09:58:56 AM
Man, this guy is just what we're looking for!  Too bad he wore the same tie!

Are you serious? 
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: superman10 on August 14, 2008, 12:19:57 PM
Yea, I was serious. I mean, I agree I was overthinking it, but I don't think I was totally off base. I"m asking for a six-figure job, and they're having me in for a callback (i.e., high chance of getting the job). I could see some partners being nitpicky about small details.

Anyways, I decided, no new suit! Thanks.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: meggo on August 14, 2008, 02:11:20 PM
I don't think it was a ridiculous question at all, and despite what people on here may say, depending the type of job you go for, people do notice these things. Your boss may not, but when his wife passes you in the hall one day when she's going to stop in to her husband's office and makes a joke about something you're wearing....I'm just saying. No, not everyone notices these things nor am I advocating for spending a lot of money and exerting sartorial flair everyday but the higher up you go, the more they do. I also think what many people fail to take into account is it's not just about how you look but where you shop, eat, drink, etc. These things all go hand in hand and open up doors to each other. Anyway, sorry for the mini-rant and what I'm saying is of course not applicable to everyone and depends heavily on the type of law, firm and city, but some times people's posts (not anyone in this thread, just generally!) make me go  ::)
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: *devo* on August 14, 2008, 02:35:32 PM
Just wear the same suit.  It really isn't a big deal and they won't notice.  If anything they would remember the same tie before they noticed the same suit and I doubt they'd even remember the tie.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: AOCenteno on August 17, 2008, 04:55:09 PM
The devil is in the details, and when you are looking to land a 6 figure job, you better believe they notice these things (Meggo makes some great points above).  With two weeks between interviews, and the fact you wore a conservative suit, a different shirt and tie will suffice.  But in my opinion, you ought to look at avoiding this dilemma in the future and consider purchasing a new suit soon.   

If you expect to be wearing a suit daily I would plan on slowly buying 5 suits, 15 shirts, and 10 ties.  You’ll also need at least two pairs of quality shoes, although I recommend most of my clients own 4 to 5.  If you plan it right and go with conservative colors and patterns that interchange easily, you’ll not only be able to dress without worrying about how you look but you’ll go months between wearing the same thing.

When looking to buy clothing, remember to look for these three things -

The Proper Fit – I don’t care if the suit has a 90% discount; if it doesn’t fit you it will not look good.  And when you find a suit that fits you well, take it to get tailored so that it fits you perfectly.  Nothing is as important as fit.       

Timeless Style – Ensure the clothing is classic in style.  You want a suit you can wear not only this season, but 5 years from now.  Avoid fads like the current thin lapels, and instead opt for styles that compliment your individual body style.  Spread shirt collars on the narrow faced man and point collars for the round faced fellow.  Go with conservative colors such as navy blue or my favorite charcoal grey (which does not accentuate youth, thus helping you avoid looking like your 17).

Quality – Go with Wool if you can afford it, a blend with up to 40% man made fibers is OK if you are cash strapped.  Wool is sought after because it maintains its shape, retains heat, absorbs moisture without showing, and it has the look other fabrics are judged by. 

Good Luck!
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: brooklyn on August 18, 2008, 03:48:14 AM
Quote from: AOCenteno
[b
Quality[/b] – Go with Wool if you can afford it, a blend with up to 40% man made fibers is OK if you are cash strapped.  Wool is sought after because it maintains its shape, retains heat, absorbs moisture without showing, and it has the look other fabrics are judged by. 

Bad advice.  You can get a 100% wool suit at Target for $150, why on earth would anyone recommend a poly blend?  Wool is sought after for a lot of reasons- depending on the type of wool- but polyester (aka microfiber, aka synthetic blend, aka man made fiber) is HOT, shiny, and drapes funny.  If you're "cash strapped," figure out your measurements, identify some timeless designers, scout the thrift stores in the rich part of town, and befriend a local tailor.  shouldn't have to lay out more than $60 for an extremely high quality contemporary cut tailored conservative suit (though for some reason it's often hard to find solids, almost always subtle pinstripes).

That said nobody's gonna remember what you look like- let alone what you were wearing- as long as it's nondescript.  Change the tie and worry about the interview itself.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: meggo on August 18, 2008, 05:20:08 AM
That is my biggest issue with poly, it's SHINYNESS. But 40% blend you're not really going to get that. There are benefits of course to man made fibres as well, which is that they degrade a lot more slowly than a natural fibre. Though I think more important to increasing wear of your suit is knowing whether you have a floating canvas or partial floating canvas (though I'm sure if you hand a floating canvas you would know  ;)), and making sure it's gently steam cleaned if your lining is glued in, so that you don't heat up the glue again and gradually shift the lining. Either way, I suppose the suit thread would be a better place for such chat....
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: subinf on September 24, 2008, 10:46:10 PM
No. No one will remember, and chances are you won't even talk to the same people that were at the screening interview.  You could probably wear the same shirt and tie and no one would notice. 
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: bigjoefatz on September 29, 2008, 08:29:16 AM
I went on 50+ interviews between OCI and Callbacks and I wore the EXACT SAME SUIT each time (different shirt, different tie - cleaners once a week). It doesn't matter. I got offers; so will you.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: Refused Party Program on September 29, 2008, 02:04:10 PM
1) Poster two above is absolutely right about not seeing the same people. There was only one call back interview I have had thus far where I even saw the person who screened me. If you were going to change anything, change the tie, or the shirt and the tie. That ought to be sufficient.

2) Proper fit on your suit is important. Personal story: one of the career services people at my school pulled me aside during one of our OCI days and told me that she overheard two of the interviewers talking about me. They both said they liked me, but one of them thought my pants were too short. I didn't get a call back from that day. Frankly, I agreed and got the pants changed (they were an inch too short, no joke). Before you get something tailored, be sure to know where things should hang. Many tailors (especially at department stores or Jos A Bank) do not know what they are doing.

3) I agree there is no reason to get any funny fabrics other than wool. You can almost always find a suit for $200 at Jos A Bank and sometimes Macy's or a place like that. The ones at Target are OK if they fit you. Just make sure it is dark as dark colors tend to hide imperfections better. Plus, dark (black, navy, charcoal) is more conservative.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: dashrashi on September 29, 2008, 05:21:34 PM
1) Poster two above is absolutely right about not seeing the same people. There was only one call back interview I have had thus far where I even saw the person who screened me. If you were going to change anything, change the tie, or the shirt and the tie. That ought to be sufficient.

2) Proper fit on your suit is important. Personal story: one of the career services people at my school pulled me aside during one of our OCI days and told me that she overheard two of the interviewers talking about me. They both said they liked me, but one of them thought my pants were too short. I didn't get a call back from that day. Frankly, I agreed and got the pants changed (they were an inch too short, no joke). Before you get something tailored, be sure to know where things should hang. Many tailors (especially at department stores or Jos A Bank) do not know what they are doing.


3) I agree there is no reason to get any funny fabrics other than wool. You can almost always find a suit for $200 at Jos A Bank and sometimes Macy's or a place like that. The ones at Target are OK if they fit you. Just make sure it is dark as dark colors tend to hide imperfections better. Plus, dark (black, navy, charcoal) is more conservative.

I just find this really f-ing annoying. I know, I know, play the game, whatever, have to look the part. But like honestly, for @#!*'s sake, they are pants. They are PANTS. Let it go, firm-working assholes.

Some days I just f-ing hate "professional" people. Hate hate hate hate hate.

Okay. Rant over.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: goaliechica on September 29, 2008, 06:47:01 PM
1) Poster two above is absolutely right about not seeing the same people. There was only one call back interview I have had thus far where I even saw the person who screened me. If you were going to change anything, change the tie, or the shirt and the tie. That ought to be sufficient.

2) Proper fit on your suit is important. Personal story: one of the career services people at my school pulled me aside during one of our OCI days and told me that she overheard two of the interviewers talking about me. They both said they liked me, but one of them thought my pants were too short. I didn't get a call back from that day. Frankly, I agreed and got the pants changed (they were an inch too short, no joke). Before you get something tailored, be sure to know where things should hang. Many tailors (especially at department stores or Jos A Bank) do not know what they are doing.


3) I agree there is no reason to get any funny fabrics other than wool. You can almost always find a suit for $200 at Jos A Bank and sometimes Macy's or a place like that. The ones at Target are OK if they fit you. Just make sure it is dark as dark colors tend to hide imperfections better. Plus, dark (black, navy, charcoal) is more conservative.

I just find this really f-ing annoying. I know, I know, play the game, whatever, have to look the part. But like honestly, for @#!*'s sake, they are pants. They are PANTS. Let it go, firm-working assholes.

Some days I just f-ing hate "professional" people. Hate hate hate hate hate.

Okay. Rant over.

That is fairly shocking. I mean, I guess I can imagine people dogging on the cut of someone's suit (although it seems stupid and unkind), but not in teh context of "I liked him, but his pants were too short, let's not give him a callback." WTF dudes.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: Refused Party Program on September 29, 2008, 07:36:25 PM
Well, I will say, if who said it was who I think said it, I'm probably better off. Actually, I'm better off regardless, I'm not sure I would want to work at a place where pant length was that important.

It really isn't a big deal at the end of the day. I have good options. It is a funny story and a word of caution to some other people out there.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: t14troll on September 29, 2008, 10:38:15 PM
lol. new shoes too. lol. and don't forget your socks. lol.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: dashrashi on September 30, 2008, 11:24:19 AM
If a client would notice your pants, then they can notice your pants. 

It's an INTERVIEW.  You're supposed to look your best.  If your best is highwater suit pants, then it's a sign that you're oblivious to other social graces as well.  As arbitrary as OCI is anyway, there are lots of other things that probably affect people's callbacks appearance-wise that they can do a hell of a lot less about (acne, ugly nose, bad teeth, cankles) than too-short pants. 

Your response was the right one.  Fix your pants; better luck next time.  At least you got the feedback before you went through interview season wondering why you had no job.

Yes, but: see above re "I know, I know, play the game, whatever, have to look the part. But like honestly, for @#!*'s sake, they are pants. They are PANTS. Let it go, firm-working assholes."

I already acknowledged your point. My point is that, despite the "necessity" of having appropriately hemmed pants, it's f-ing IMMORAL to care about the f-ing hem of someone's pants, as it is functionally irrelevant to the substance of being a lawyer.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: jacy85 on September 30, 2008, 02:09:05 PM
If a client would notice your pants, then they can notice your pants. 

It's an INTERVIEW.  You're supposed to look your best.  If your best is highwater suit pants, then it's a sign that you're oblivious to other social graces as well.  As arbitrary as OCI is anyway, there are lots of other things that probably affect people's callbacks appearance-wise that they can do a hell of a lot less about (acne, ugly nose, bad teeth, cankles) than too-short pants. 

Your response was the right one.  Fix your pants; better luck next time.  At least you got the feedback before you went through interview season wondering why you had no job.

Yes, but: see above re "I know, I know, play the game, whatever, have to look the part. But like honestly, for @#!*'s sake, they are pants. They are PANTS. Let it go, firm-working assholes."

I already acknowledged your point. My point is that, despite the "necessity" of having appropriately hemmed pants, it's f-ing IMMORAL to care about the f-ing hem of someone's pants, as it is functionally irrelevant to the substance of being a lawyer.

How is it immoral to care about whether or not someone can present themselves professionally?  Pants that are a full inch too short do not look professional.  Business has, and always will, involve judgments based upon how professionally one comes across, including your resume, your personal appearance, and your social skills. 

IMO, taking into account personal grooming and wearing clothes that fit is a far cry from making hiring decisions based on how attractive someone is (which crosses the line, IMO, from acceptable to wrong).
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: dashrashi on September 30, 2008, 08:55:11 PM
@#!* business. @#!* "professionalism." All anyone should give a *&^% about is competence and its relative gradations. Social skills, sure. Being able to relate to people is often (but not always) part of the job. But clothing is clothing. Unless it is stained or smelly (leading to questions about social skills), it's immoral to treat something that is so subject to external irrelevant factors (like, say, applicant's tailor's skills, or hey, howsabout, one that has a little more import, I don't know, um, applicant's income level) as "important" to the decision.

Gots to love the snark about how of course, obviously, duh, the profession generally thought to center on the general rules of our society in fact centers on...business?

For the record, not going the firm route. Guess ...the business side? just doesn't appeal to me.

Do wonder what crawled up bosco's ass, though.

Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: jacy85 on September 30, 2008, 09:54:02 PM
@#!* business. @#!* "professionalism." All anyone should give a *&^% about is competence and its relative gradations. Social skills, sure. Being able to relate to people is often (but not always) part of the job. But clothing is clothing. Unless it is stained or smelly (leading to questions about social skills), it's immoral to treat something that is so subject to external irrelevant factors (like, say, applicant's tailor's skills, or hey, howsabout, one that has a little more import, I don't know, um, applicant's income level) as "important" to the decision.

Gots to love the snark about how of course, obviously, duh, the profession generally thought to center on the general rules of our society in fact centers on...business?

For the record, not going the firm route. Guess ...the business side? just doesn't appeal to me.

Do wonder what crawled up bosco's ass, though.



If someone can't afford a %10 tailor's bill to let out a pair of pants, that person likely have much greater things to worry about in life.  Good, basic tailoring is in no way prohibitively expensive for the vast majority of people.

And seriously, if a person can't f-ing get a pair of pants that fit, I'm going to seriously judge that person's competence (no offense meant to RPP, who realized the problem and fixed it).  Dressing oneself is a basic life skill.  And this is NOT something that only big firms care about.  Unless a relative has a job waiting for you finish school or you're going solo, you will be interviewing for your job.  ANY job as an attorney requires professionalism, and anyone that thinks the vast majority of interviewers from the public sector and/or government aren't going to care if they look silly (or worse) because of poorly fitting clothes is fooling themselves.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: pig floyd on September 30, 2008, 10:53:15 PM
I just think you're on the wrong side of this one.

She's not.

And seriously, if a person can't f-ing get a pair of pants that fit, I'm going to seriously judge that person's competence (no offense meant to RPP, who realized the problem and fixed it).  Dressing oneself is a basic life skill.  And this is NOT something that only big firms care about.  Unless a relative has a job waiting for you finish school or you're going solo, you will be interviewing for your job.  ANY job as an attorney requires professionalism, and anyone that thinks the vast majority of interviewers from the public sector and/or government aren't going to care if they look silly (or worse) because of poorly fitting clothes is fooling themselves.

As a realist, I'd suggest your standards are too high.  Most people cannot dress themselves.

As a law student living on loans, I'd suggest your standards are too high.  I have a few hundred dollars to buy a suit, not ten or twenty hundreds.  My few hundred dollar suit is going to look rather, err, cheap, no matter who I get to tailor it.

Then of course, every single firm I did a callback at?  Business casual.  Right.  I'm better dressed than any of the people who interviewed me, even if my suit doesn't fit right.

@#!* off.

Dash is god.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: dashrashi on October 01, 2008, 06:49:37 AM
Look, tailoring and being "dressed appropriately" is something that people in higher income brackets get to think about. Furthermore, no tailor can turn an Old Navy suit into Armani, or even Banana Republic. (And frankly, I too have had a tailor hem the pants too f-ing short. I'd definitely state that having the time and inclination to go to multiple tailors is a distinctly high-SES, First World kind of situation.)

Basing a hiring decision on something so indicative of inequities, and so definitionally superficial, is just the wrong thing to be doing. It certainly can't be the morally courageous thing to do, to judge someone's suitability for a job on the basis of their flipping hems, the full story behind which you can't possibly know (did her mother die when she was four, leaving her clueless father to raise her without any female sartorial role models? COULD BE; relevant to a job as a lawyer? NOT LIKELY).

YES YES, I have to interview too, even in PI, I know. You're not telling me anything new. YES YES, play the game.* But it's a bad, bad game. So @#!* the game. Because it sucks. What's the harm in admitting it?

Thanks for the assist, pig. Much appreciated.

*Which I do. You should see me obsess about my own suits. But that's mostly because I was lucky enough to be raised in a certain socioeconomic context (and a little because I'm kind of vain). And the fact that my suits are flattering has effin' zero to do with my professional competence. Scout's honor.

Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: CTL on October 01, 2008, 10:37:15 AM
Effin' zero to do with professional competence?  It sounds like you're assuming that being competent at one's profession need not entail presenting oneself as a professional.  I believe that part of one's profession is the marketing of oneself.  If I'm correct, then it would seem as though the choice to wear flattering suits does pertain to one's professional competence. 
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: dashrashi on October 01, 2008, 10:57:57 AM
You're interviewing for a job that starts around $200k with bonus.  You can't buy a suit?  It's an investment for Christ's sake.

You don't have a job that pays $200k; you're a student paying out the ass for rent, and you currently have no job. No one in your family has money to lend you, either. You can buy a suit, but it's not gonna be fancy. Investment or not. Similar to the rejoinder to Huckabee's retarded flat tax plan (purportedly supposed to encourage saving), you can't invest, no matter how much you should, if you don't have the money.

Effin' zero to do with professional competence?  It sounds like you're assuming that being competent at one's profession need not entail presenting oneself as a professional.  I believe that part of one's profession is the marketing of oneself.  If I'm correct, then it would seem as though the choice to wear flattering suits does pertain to one's professional competence. 

Would you rather: have a lawyer who looked sharp, presented self professionally, but couldn't string a sentence together or generally advocate her way out of a paper bag; or, have a lawyer whose suit was shiny, what with the iron marks, and the hem was all lumpy, and it was kind of baggy under the arms, and the back seam looked like it had been ruched, it was sewn so badly, plus a wrinkly shirt, heaven forfend, but who was a f-ing kickass thinker and talker and arguer and strategist? Which one is competent? Which one is incompetent? Can you fairly call the second lawyer incompetent?

Is there ever, even, possibly a question?

(Hint: The latter; the second one; the first one; no; no.)

Go along to get along, sure, sure, but why would you justify what is definitionally superficial and shallow?

(No hints on this one. I've got no idea.)
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: jacy85 on October 01, 2008, 11:13:01 AM
You're interviewing for a job that starts around $200k with bonus.  You can't buy a suit?  It's an investment for Christ's sake.

You don't have a job that pays $200k; you're a student paying out the ass for rent, and you currently have no job. No one in your family has money to lend you, either. You can buy a suit, but it's not gonna be fancy. Investment or not. Similar to the rejoinder to Huckabee's retarded flat tax plan (purportedly supposed to encourage saving), you can't invest, no matter how much you should, if you don't have the money.

Effin' zero to do with professional competence?  It sounds like you're assuming that being competent at one's profession need not entail presenting oneself as a professional.  I believe that part of one's profession is the marketing of oneself.  If I'm correct, then it would seem as though the choice to wear flattering suits does pertain to one's professional competence. 

Would you rather: have a lawyer who looked sharp, presented self professionally, but couldn't string a sentence together or generally advocate her way out of a paper bag; or, have a lawyer whose suit was shiny, what with the iron marks, and the hem was all lumpy, and it was kind of baggy under the arms, and the back seam looked like it had been ruched, it was sewn so badly, plus a wrinkly shirt, heaven forfend, but who was a f-ing kickass thinker and talker and arguer and strategist? Which one is competent? Which one is incompetent? Can you fairly call the second lawyer incompetent?

Is there ever, even, possibly a question?

(Hint: The latter; the second one; the first one; no; no.)

Go along to get along, sure, sure, but why would you justify what is definitionally superficial and shallow?

(No hints on this one. I've got no idea.)

No one said anything about getting a fancy suit.  Even a suit from target, in the proper size, can be cheaply tailored to fit well (unless you are extremely tall, large, or petite).  Department stores have sales, and places like K&G and other warehouse clothing stores carry decent suits for not a lot of money  (and many of the latter include tailoring for free or very, very cheap when you buy the suit).  You don't need Armani to look put together.

And to answer your question, I'd hire neither of those lawyers.  The first one isn't worth the cost of his suit.  But the second one is just as much a waste of my money, at least if I'm hiring an attorney to bring a claim that may end up in court.  What jury is ever going to take a mess like that seriously, no matter how good their argument is?

You can rebel and female dog about "the game," if it makes you happy.  But at the end of the day, it's not a game - it's LIFE.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: CTL on October 01, 2008, 11:19:36 AM
Well, given the available options I would definitely choose the smart hobo.  

However, I don't think that there is necessarily an inverse relationship between legal might and being a sartorialist.  At any rate, I was just trying to get you to acknowledge that there is an aspect of professional competence which directly pertains to one's presentation.  I'm not trying to justify allowing that small aspect of professionalism to become the chief determinant of professionalism.  
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: Refused Party Program on October 01, 2008, 11:38:29 AM
Well I certainly didn't mean to hijack the thread, but I will say a few things:

1) My point was interviewers may notice something as "trivial" as pants that are an inch too short.
2) I actually thought they were too short when I got them tailored, but was told that was where they were supposed to sit. I didn't wear suits in my previous career, I didn't know anything about how a suit ought to fit. Moral of the story: just taking something to get tailored doesn't solve the problem. You need to make sure your tailor knows what they are doing. Mine did not. Do an internet search BEFORE you go to the tailor and tell them they are wrong if they are in fact wrong. I learned my lesson.
3) While one or two interviewers picked up on it, I still got a callback or two from that day. It wasn't the end of the world. I suppose my social ineptness wasn't as egregious as some in this thread have made it out to be. (I have offers as well from interviews where I wore my "highwater suit pants.").
4) As much as some may want to fight it, the law business IS an image business. Little things matter whether we want to or not and I think that carries over into places that have biz casual dress codes and PI organizations.
5) That being said, a nice fitting suit won't cover up your lousy personality, grades, lack of significant work experience, elitist attitude, state school degree or whatever else someone isn't going to like about you. However, if there is only one callback or position, and its between you in the bad fitting suit, and the guy in the nice suit, all else being equal, I think they are going with the nice suit. Just a hunch.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: dashrashi on October 01, 2008, 11:57:27 AM
I don't think there's an inverse relationship, but I don't think being well-dressed should have any part in someone assessing your competence. Likewise: defendants are treated less well when they show up in sweats than when they show up in a suit. But now, for the crucial bit: SHOULD they be?

Of course not. Of course not. How is this hard?

RPP--I'm glad things went well for you. Please don't take any of what I'm saying as pertaining to your specific situation. I am speaking, for the most part, generally/hypothetically/normatively. Although ain't it a female dog when the tailor hems them too high, and you're like, um, well, you're the tailor, I guess we'll...go with that?

And for the record, in my experience, a suit from Target generally cannot be tailored to look all that put together. And the people who female dog about pant hems will be just as put off by a cheap (albeit attempted-to-fit-well) suit as they were by the pant hems. That's kind of the point. Someone who bitches about your pants' hems will also female dog about the cheap polyester your suit is made out of.

Still didn't say whether the second lawyer is incompetent, btw. That's the question on the table. Also a lot of qualifiers, about going in front of a jury, etc. You know how few lawyers ever go in front of juries. Would you hire the second lawyer to write up your contract? Of course. And certainly over the first lawyer. Because the second lawyer is competent.

You can rebel and female dog about "the game," if it makes you happy.  But at the end of the day, it's not a game - it's LIFE.

Um...good one? Albeit kind of depressing?

Irrelevant Huckabee crap aside, quit being so bitter and get a damn job.

Are you joking? I'm fine on the job front, thanks.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: dukedogalley on October 01, 2008, 12:38:20 PM
Your revolution is over.  Condolences. The bums lost.  My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir.  The bums will always lose.  Do you hear me! 

The bums will always lose!
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: pig floyd on October 01, 2008, 04:04:49 PM
Actually, now that I think about it, I probably got a couple dings because I didn't buy a new BMW to drive to the interviews.

I'm thinking the M6 would have been a good choice.  It fits my ego well.

Damn it.   :'(
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: dashrashi on October 01, 2008, 07:45:47 PM
Actually, now that I think about it, I probably got a couple dings because I didn't buy a new BMW to drive to the interviews.

I'm thinking the M6 would have been a good choice.  It fits my ego well.

Damn it.   :'(

Only rubes drive themselves. Truly professional lawyers only travel by chauffeur. Oh, and jetpack.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on October 01, 2008, 07:57:53 PM
Actually, now that I think about it, I probably got a couple dings because I didn't buy a new BMW to drive to the interviews.

I'm thinking the M6 would have been a good choice.  It fits my ego well.

Damn it.   :'(

Only rubes drive themselves. Truly professional lawyers only travel by chauffeur. Oh, and jetpack.

So I shouldn't have gotten one of these?

(http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08XC5Hmd6hesU/340x.jpg)
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: pig floyd on October 01, 2008, 08:01:26 PM
I'm also thinking I probably got dinged at the other firm because I tied a half windsor instead of a full.

 >:(
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: goaliechica on October 01, 2008, 08:06:55 PM
I'm also thinking I probably got dinged at the other firm because I tied a half windsor instead of a full.

 >:(

Plebe!
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: Miss P on October 01, 2008, 08:38:21 PM
For better or for worse, there are reasons for employers to care about how employees present themselves in court and with clients.  (Public defenders shouldn't look too rich, for example.)  But if an applicant's interview dress falls short of the mark, that's no reason not to hire him.  This is the kind of thing that a mentor or recruiting coordinator at a firm should handle -- "Hey, this is awkward, but there's a note here that your pants were a little short at the interview. Pants should hit here.  The firm has a discount program at Brooks Brothers/Hickey Freeman/wherever and I can get you an advance or clothing allowance if you'd like.  If not, I'm sure some of the other gentlemen around could recommend some good tailors. I'm sorry that we even need to trouble you with this, but the firm is concerned about its image."

I agree with Dash about the rest.  The firm's response here was way out of line and laden with class bias.  (Also, as a big girl, I can attest that it is very difficult to find suits that fit appropriately -- even after good tailoring -- for under $400.  I am sure that I face discrimination all the time because people find my body too awkward to fit in, regardless of my sartorial savvy.) 

Finally, the apologias from some commenters here strike me as a little sad.  YBR and Jacy, I know you are both very successful.  You have a lot of good advice to share on the board.  But must you defend every bit of petty, elitist b.s. legal employers throw out?  Sure, firms might be squeamish about having an associate with poorly hemmed pants around the office.  They may even have business reasons to fear judgment.  But their fear is surely not a sign of what's right and good about the world.  Indeed, firms may also be squeamish about introducing clients to an openly gay associate, a disabled associate, an associate who's too fat or too skinny.  Would you defend taking any of these things into account at a screening interview?  I don't see the ill-fitting pants as any more legitimate a cause for alarm.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: archival on October 01, 2008, 08:44:12 PM
I would like a jetpack.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: pig floyd on October 01, 2008, 09:27:47 PM
someone who can't even go through the trouble of wearing pants that fit.  Maybe you and dash don't even disagree on that, I'm not sure.

Last I heard, the break is still subject to preference.  Without reading back to confirm my memory of the facts, an inch variance in break is well within tolerance.

Seriously.

Chill out.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: Miss P on October 01, 2008, 09:37:05 PM
someone who can't even go through the trouble of wearing pants that fit.  Maybe you and dash don't even disagree on that, I'm not sure.

I agree with Dash on this, as I thought my post indicated.  I don't believe getting some cultural codes wrong is necessarily an exercise in bad judgment or a failure to jump through some minimal hoops: it could be something not very well within a candidate's control, and it could be something that no one ever bothered to teach him.  Indeed, as the poster in question here mentioned, he did go through the trouble of tailoring his pants.  It just so happens that the expert -- his tailor -- got it wrong.

You didn't address the more difficult questions, for all your exasperation.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: pig floyd on October 01, 2008, 09:48:17 PM

Haha, I just said I'm not even sure we disagree!  The only one who seems to be freaking out is the person you're defending.

I'm just pressing the point.

Take me, for example.  I wear a short break.  Not because I want a short break, but because reality requires it.  My body type makes it so no pants, no matter how well tailored, will stay properly situated around my waist.  A belt is no help because if I belt tight enough to counter the problem, I'll get bunching around the crotch (especially with the material better suit pants are made from).  Absent a too-tight belt, my pants will sit about 2-3 inches lower than optimal, which transforms my short break into a full break (my preferred break).

Which is the worst sin?

a) the short break,
b) bunching around the crotch,
c) too-low pants.

Which is more likely to get me dinged?  I mean, after all, I'm not the model of suited perfection you and others here are demanding.

EDIT: (maybe i could try suspenders...)
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: dashrashi on October 02, 2008, 04:46:51 AM
(Public defenders shouldn't look too rich, for example.) 

This is gonna be easy.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: Miss P on October 02, 2008, 06:11:44 AM
(Public defenders shouldn't look too rich, for example.) 

This is gonna be easy.

'zackly. ;)
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: Refused Party Program on October 02, 2008, 06:16:39 AM

Haha, I just said I'm not even sure we disagree!  The only one who seems to be freaking out is the person you're defending.

OK, I'm taking umbrage with this comment.

First of all, my story was not gripping, it was a word of caution. Frankly, I don't care if the firm "dinged" me for pants. While she may have liked me, maybe she liked other people more. I didn't hear the comment first hand so I'm not even sure what was said. As I stated earlier, if it is the firm I think it is, I could do without the callback. I have options that are better for me in that city and I also don't think I clicked with this particular person.

Second, I think I'm hardly the one that is "freaking out" on this thread. There are plenty of others that I would say are more upset (on both sides of the issue). Honestly, I think both sides have valid arguments.

Finally, the comment was actually a good thing because it confirmed my suspicion that my pants were indeed to short and needed to be fixed.

All of that being said, I feel like some of you are very quick to make judgments about my character (that I am a sloppy, socially inept, impoverished, scum bag) based on my story. While that is fine and good, just keep in mind I shared a story with the purpose of saying: "yes, some firms may notice minor details of your dress." Attacking me for my pants after sharing the story comes across (to me at least) as arrogant and superficial, especially after I admitted that it was something I should have taken care of. I would argue that indicates social ineptitude more than an improperly tailored suit.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: Miss P on October 02, 2008, 06:24:37 AM

Haha, I just said I'm not even sure we disagree!  The only one who seems to be freaking out is the person you're defending.

OK, I'm taking umbrage with this comment.

You shouldn't.  I'm pretty sure bosco was referring to me or to dash, not to you, even though (yes) it makes more sense to name you as the person piggy was defending.

All of that being said, I feel like some of you are very quick to make judgments about my character (that I am a sloppy, socially inept, impoverished, scum bag) based on my story. While that is fine and good, just keep in mind I shared a story with the purpose of saying: "yes, some firms may notice minor details of your dress." Attacking me for my pants after sharing the story comes across (to me at least) as arrogant and superficial, especially after I admitted that it was something I should have taken care of. I would argue that indicates social ineptitude more than an improperly tailored suit.

I'm sorry that anything dash or I have said made you think we were saying you were poor (not that it's a bad thing -- but I don't like people to make assumptions about me either).  I think all of this could be a product of regional differences or youth or a certain body type or just bad luck with a bad tailor.  The easiest and most expansive explanation is that you don't come from the same socioeconomic class as the people from the firm or the people to whom they are pinning their norms.  (Not many people do.  Bluebloods are a dying breed.)  It's not about being poor.  It's about not being a certain kind of rich.  (Also, ftr, I assume that most people in law school have very little extra money to throw around, at least until their first summer at a firm.)
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: SFLSD on October 02, 2008, 07:12:38 AM
I judge people by their clothes.  Does this make me a bad person?
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: dashrashi on October 02, 2008, 09:05:49 AM

Haha, I just said I'm not even sure we disagree!  The only one who seems to be freaking out is the person you're defending.

OK, I'm taking umbrage with this comment.

You shouldn't.  I'm pretty sure bosco was referring to me or to dash, not to you, even though (yes) it makes more sense to name you as the person piggy was defending.

All of that being said, I feel like some of you are very quick to make judgments about my character (that I am a sloppy, socially inept, impoverished, scum bag) based on my story. While that is fine and good, just keep in mind I shared a story with the purpose of saying: "yes, some firms may notice minor details of your dress." Attacking me for my pants after sharing the story comes across (to me at least) as arrogant and superficial, especially after I admitted that it was something I should have taken care of. I would argue that indicates social ineptitude more than an improperly tailored suit.

I'm sorry that anything dash or I have said made you think we were saying you were poor (not that it's a bad thing -- but I don't like people to make assumptions about me either).  I think all of this could be a product of regional differences or youth or a certain body type or just bad luck with a bad tailor.  The easiest and most expansive explanation is that you don't come from the same socioeconomic class as the people from the firm or the people to whom they are pinning their norms.  (Not many people do.  Bluebloods are a dying breed.)  It's not about being poor.  It's about not being a certain kind of rich.  (Also, ftr, I assume that most people in law school have very little extra money to throw around, at least until their first summer at a firm.)

Ditto. RPP, I hope you know that I was going from your specific experience to speak more generally and hypothetically. Please excuse me if I've made any assumptions about you. For the record, I too have had *&^% luck with a tailor. It's okay, though. I hit his car with my car, and now I don't go to him anymore. In related news, I wear skirt suits because I haven't found anyone new to hem my pants.

I find it slightly risible that bosco thinks I'm freaking out, for the record. The initial comment was explicitly presented as a "rant," which was then declared to be "over," after which point I defended the substance of the rant. No freaking out, I assure you. Not that I give a *&^% if people imply that I'm hysterical and overemotional. I mostly get "nasty, icy, and unpleasant" in person, so it's nice to present both glittering sides of my personality.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: dashrashi on October 02, 2008, 09:07:11 AM
I don't mean to attack you for your pants.  But the snap judgment by an interviewer--when they have to make a call regarding whether to spend thousands of dollars of firm resources to further pursue this kid--could be that you are socially inept, lack self awareness, lazy, unkempt, wouldn't go over well with millionaire partners and clients, etc.

Like I said earlier, I thought you had the right response.  You said "Oh well" and fixed the pants. 

But...didn't you also imply/say that such a snap judgment is justified, or at least not unjustified, in some essential way? I could be confusing you with someone else in the thread, though.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: SFLSD on October 02, 2008, 12:17:34 PM
Can I just say that I keep thinking the stuff in dash's tar is cold cuts?  I know that's not what it is, but it keeps faking me out.

[/hijack]
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: dashrashi on October 02, 2008, 12:44:37 PM
GELATO.

Also I think that you must eat disgusting cold cuts. More disgusting than regular cold cuts, even.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: SFLSD on October 02, 2008, 12:47:58 PM
GELATO.

Also I think that you must eat disgusting cold cuts. More disgusting than regular cold cuts, even.

I KNOW it's gelato!  It's just hard to tell when it's a 140X140 or whatever jpg!

But yes, I don't eat healthy.  I need to make some changes in my lifestyle.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: CTL on October 02, 2008, 01:11:05 PM
Gelato is probably the best thing to ever come out of Italy.  I'm not trying to disparage the achievements of Italians - I'm just trying to treat gelato justly.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: t14troll on October 08, 2008, 09:45:05 AM
Gelato is probably the best thing to ever come out of Italy.  I'm not trying to disparage the achievements of Italians - I'm just trying to treat gelato justly.

ESPRESSO
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: CTL on October 08, 2008, 10:29:50 AM
Espresso gelato.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: t14troll on October 08, 2008, 10:38:35 AM
Espresso gelato.

I prefer fruity gelato with an espresso on the side.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: CTL on October 08, 2008, 11:21:26 AM
I would go for the espresso.  Zegna suits have tons of substitutes - superior substitutes IMO.  Espresso is one of a kind.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: t14troll on October 08, 2008, 11:36:41 AM
I would go for the espresso.  Zegna suits have tons of substitutes - superior substitutes IMO.  Espresso is one of a kind.

you are a wise man.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: rhesusman on October 11, 2008, 07:52:42 AM
Usually at a callback interview, you spend most of your time talking to people you wouldn't have seen at the screening interview, so most of them won't even know.  The attorney you met in the screening interview may come by to say hi, but probably won't remember what you wore.  I agree with other posters who recommended wearing a different color shirt and tie.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: SteveP on October 23, 2008, 04:31:39 PM
Usually at a callback interview, you spend most of your time talking to people you wouldn't have seen at the screening interview, so most of them won't even know.  The attorney you met in the screening interview may come by to say hi, but probably won't remember what you wore.  I agree with other posters who recommended wearing a different color shirt and tie.

What this guy said, except that I would add that if a firm wouldn't hire you because of something like this, you don't want to work there.  Law is often all about the image, but it doesn't have to be. Make the right choices.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: vercingetorix on October 23, 2008, 05:02:02 PM
this whole post captures why non-trads have an advantage during the interview process.
Title: Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
Post by: Miss P on October 23, 2008, 06:34:01 PM
this whole post captures why non-trads have an advantage during the interview process.

I will take this as an implicit endorsement of my post.