Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses => Topic started by: bigs5068 on August 12, 2008, 03:10:36 PM

Title: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: bigs5068 on August 12, 2008, 03:10:36 PM
I really want to go to law school in the bay area and I have a shot at Santa Clara or USF and I should definetly get into Golden Gate, but I have heard a lot of bad things on the internet about it.  I was just curious if anyone knew more about Golden Gate or is a current student there that could tell me more. 
Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: tranandy on August 21, 2008, 02:25:51 PM
Golden Gate LS is a truly bad law school.  A little research will tell you all you need to know about the school.  Do not go there under any circumstances.

Santa Clara and USF are decent, but not great, choices if you want to work in the Bay Area.

Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: tranandy on August 22, 2008, 12:26:40 PM
http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage_PDFs/ABA_LawSchoolData/ABA4329.pdf

Current ABA stats show about 1/3 of the class drop out before graduating.  Of the 2/3 who make it through law school, only 73% have jobs 9 months after graduation.  Only 52% of those employed have jobs at law firms.  About 25% have jobs in the vague "business and industry" category, i.e. starbucks -- most likely because they didn't pass the bar (only about 60% of grads pass the bar on the first try).

By my rough calculations, based on the numbers above, about 49% of the incoming class is going to actually graduate and have a job within 9 months of graduation.  The other 51% will either drop out or not have jobs. 

Only about 25% of those who matriculate at GGLS will actually have a job at a law firm within 9 months of their class' graduation (if they graduate).

Also, GGLS was put on probation 3 years ago for having terrible bar pass rates.  It has since raised them enough to be removed from probation.

HTH

Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: just some guy on August 22, 2008, 04:49:19 PM
Didn't the dean leave for Texas Wesleyan? That should tell you something.
Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: vjm on September 11, 2008, 10:37:33 PM
It is that bad. I knew several people who went there during the abysmal bar pass period. Not only did none of them pass the bar the first TWO times they took it, one ended up taking it many, many times. Maybe all my friends are idiots (they're not) but they all hate it, and only one currently has a legal job.

They do all have crushing debt though.BTW, they all went there because they just HAD to be in San Francisco. All of them say that if they could go back and do it over again, they would relocate to Mars for a better chance upon graduation.

Don't feel bad asking a school anything. Schools that don't suck can give you an honest and proud answer that you can check. Schools that should be shut down will try and avoid the question, or blow sunshine up your ass, or give you numbers that do not correspond to reality. This is a huge financial commitment you thinking of undertaking, one that could really make your life a living hell if you aren't extremely careful.
Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: sluglaw on September 24, 2008, 04:29:39 PM
from what i've heard the school itself academically is not that bad.  i knew someone who had a prof at boalt who used to teach at golden gate and said it was about the same.  the problem, of course, is where are you going to get hired after you graduate?  even if it was a very solid school, you have to keep in mind that one of the number one hirings draws is going to be regional law firms wherever you go.  the problem with golden gate is that it is surrounded by top-notch law schools- boalt, hasting, stanford and uc davis are all within 100 miles, not to mention that san francisco law firms are some of the top nation wide meaning that they hire from law schools all over the country.  basically, you have to be in the very top of your class to get any decent prospects to be hired, otherwise firms will take someone who graduated lower from one of the more prestigious law schools in the area.  to make it worse, it is not a very well known school outside of the bay (its not even well known IN the bay) so life is going to be very tough on you post-graduation.  i would recommend looking elsewhere.

as for the person who posted about people having trouble with the bar- i dont think thats a reflection of the quality of the schools teaching but the caliber of people who go there.  its a standardized test and from everything ive heard hardly something taht law schools spend much time preparing students to take.
Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: Ninja1 on October 03, 2008, 11:59:14 AM
You stop looking at bad law schools this instant. You found FP, treat that as a school of last resort and go up from there.
Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: Ninja1 on October 03, 2008, 08:39:57 PM
Have you considered Albany? It's a good school and your numbers should get you there.
Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: Changed Name on October 04, 2008, 05:09:44 PM
I know about Albany and it seems alright, but I need out of New York. I would love to go to a decent a school in my home state of California.  The only problem with California is that there are really high ranked and really low-ranked schools there.  Southwestern is the only school with a decent reputation that I have a good chance of getting into.  USF and Santa Clara are long shots, but I applied so who knows.  Then California has the low-rated schools like La Verne, Golden Gate, California Western, Thomas Jefferson, and Western State which I have no idea how they are even provisonally approved with a 20 something bar percentage pass rate.  Anyways, time will tell what happens I suppose.

Did you make sure to apply PT?  That would probably help.  I know SCU has a PT program.  Not sure about USF.

I also don't know if US News changed its ranking methodology to include part-time numbers.  If so, that would hurt your chances.
Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: rhesusman on October 19, 2008, 10:37:05 AM
I remember that when I was applying to law school, Golden Gate sent me a pile of promotional materials - far and away more than anyone else.  One of the brochures had an explanation of their trial advocacy program, which involved having people dress up as Little Red Riding Hood and the Big Bad Wolf (complete with a picture of a guy wearing a hideous wolf mask at the witness stand) and having students act out a trial based on that situation.  And this was in their promotional materials, which I thought were intended to make you take the school seriously.

There has to be a better school that could get you a job in the San Francisco area.  Even bad law schools are expensive; going to one can make you worse off than not having gone at all.
Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: Changed Name on October 19, 2008, 10:50:45 AM
Wow... Please tell me that "Little Red Riding Hood" trial was a joke.  That's just ... (I'm at a loss for words).

I don't know if the original poster still reads the boards or not, but I just looked at his LSN profile.  With a 155, you might have a shot a Bay Area PT program, but I wouldn't be counting my chickens before they hatch.

But, if you actually manage to pull your score up by five points, which can be done with some studying, you'd then pretty much get into some decent Bay Area school (SCU or USF).  And, a little further out, you'd probably get into McGeorge (you can always move back from Sacramento).

To add some detail about me:  I'm from the Bay Area, but I chose to go to a school out-of-state (regional school, ranked in the forties) on a scholarship.  My goal is to come back to the Bay after graduating, and i'm sure it will be tough, but hopefully, manageable.  If you're willing to take the gamble, like me, you can go somewhere else around the nation and network yourself back to California.  I say this, primarily as a means, to let myself believe that it can be done.

 
Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: rhesusman on October 19, 2008, 11:12:40 AM
No, it's no joke.  That was actually in there.  I just looked up the stats on Golden Gate on US News.  Of the 96% of students who borrowed to go there, the average indebtedness was $112,477.  The median private sector salary (as reported by the 71% who bothered to share that information) was $65,000 - and the Bay Area is not a cheap place to live.  This, with the 60.4% bar passage rate amounts to a very strong case against going to that school.

This is why I hate fourth tier schools.  They rip their students off.  So many of them charge tier 1 tuition and let their students graduate with tier 1 debt while knowing full well that most of them will not be able to pay it off.
Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: Changed Name on October 19, 2008, 11:42:15 AM
I'm actually stunned at that marketing technique. 

Another option (though, I do not recommend this at all, but maybe something to consider weighing pro's and con's) is going to a California Accredited Law school.  This might make more sense than going to Golden Gate because as the poster above notes, the tuition at GGU is ridiculously high for what you may inevitably get as a "return."  If money is no object, and if you have no other choice, then it might be OK (as long as you understand the type of prospects you may get upon graduation).  However, a California Accredited law school is going to have FAR cheaper tuition.  I think some of them are about $10,000 per year for tuition.

Of course going to one of those schools will have some drawbacks:  firstly, you'll have to sit for the "baby bar" which you take after your first year, I believe, and you must pass that before you can continue (I heard this exam is ridiculously hard, maybe even harder than the bar exam); secondly, job prospects coming from a school like this will definitely not yield the most sophisticated of legal work (i.e., no biglaw [though, this is virtually certain for GGU, also]).

I know a couple of people who went to a California Accredited law school (but not in the Bay Area), in Monterey.  Over in Monterey, they do well enough if they pass the bar and probably can find some form of legal employment while they try and build their skills as lawyers.

Like I said, I'm not sure if this is the "smart" route, but something in me says that there's some logic in going to a school that's not ABA accredited, if the tuition is far cheaper, and the job prospects might in the end even out.  It's a cost/benefit analysis also weighed against your future aspirations.

My advice:  just study for the LSAT hardcore (even if this means putting off law school for one more year).  Get above a 160 and go to a decent Bay Area school.
Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: rhesusman on October 19, 2008, 02:06:09 PM
Another option (though, I do not recommend this at all, but maybe something to consider weighing pro's and con's) is going to a California Accredited Law school.  This might make more sense than going to Golden Gate because as the poster above notes, the tuition at GGU is ridiculously high for what you may inevitably get as a "return."  If money is no object, and if you have no other choice, then it might be OK (as long as you understand the type of prospects you may get upon graduation).  However, a California Accredited law school is going to have FAR cheaper tuition.  I think some of them are about $10,000 per year for tuition.

An intriguing suggestion.  While as you note this wouldn't be a good idea for most people, if you're looking at schools like Golden Gate being your only choice, I can't see this as being much worse.

One thing I would suggest to people who can't get into a top 30 law school is to establish residency in the state in which you want to work and go to a public school in that state.  My understanding is that state schools' career offices tend to be reasonably well-connected in their states and their in-state tuition is usually substantially cheaper than even the worst private schools.  In Florida, for example, UF and FSU have annual tuition in the neighborhood of $10K to $11K a year for in-state students and they offer career opportunities in the state that are far more impressive than the much more expensive Florida Coastal, which charges nearly three times as much.  Other state schools seem generally to have in-state tuition less than $15K, so I think that it pays to bring one's LSAT up to the point at which one can get into one of those rather than shell out the big bucks to go to a low-prestige school.
Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: Ninja1 on October 19, 2008, 03:18:57 PM
No, it's no joke.  That was actually in there.  I just looked up the stats on Golden Gate on US News.  Of the 96% of students who borrowed to go there, the average indebtedness was $112,477.  The median private sector salary (as reported by the 71% who bothered to share that information) was $65,000 - and the Bay Area is not a cheap place to live.  This, with the 60.4% bar passage rate amounts to a very strong case against going to that school.

This is why I hate fourth tier schools.  They rip their students off.  So many of them charge tier 1 tuition and let their students graduate with tier 1 debt while knowing full well that most of them will not be able to pay it off.

One virtue of this though, if enough of these people get worthless degrees and a ton of debt, maybe we'll finally see a "bail out" package for student loans. Probably not happening, but it's fun to pretend...
Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: SF.3L on November 03, 2008, 05:53:36 PM
Hi Big-

I'm a 3L at GGU and I am happy with the school.  It has a great location, staff, and student body.  GGU just remodeled its law library (it opened a week ago), bookstore, and cafe.  Many of the professors teach at Boalt and Hastings also.  We read the same textbooks and have the same homework assignments as every other law school.  Yes, we are a tier 4 school.  This is because our entering statistics are lower and, until recently, our bar pass rates were significantly lower that other CA ABA schools.  The school was put on probation by the ABA in 2006, but has subsequently been taken off probation.  This is because the bar pass rates are back up- 68% for first time takers and 80% overall for the July 2007 bar.  If I could have gotten into Boalt or Hastings, of course I would have gone, but that wasn't my reality.  I had a little too much fun in college. :) I had a solid LSAT score (162) but an abysmal GPA (2.6).

All BS aside, it's not a stellar "brag about the name" institution.  But there is nothing wrong with GGU.

People carry on about the number of people who fail out... most GGU first years are like me- smart kids who had a lot of fun in college, did not enter with the best work ethic, and after a semester of law school realized it was time to buckle down or seek life elsewhere.  Those who didn't pull it together were out.  I regard this as a good thing (it made me get my ducks in a row) and the primary reason the school's bar rate has risen so dramatically.

I honestly think it is unfortunate how quickly people who have 0 experience with the school are ready to rip it to pieces.  And, I think some of the most negative posts you find are from those who didn't make the cut...

As for job placement, no one I know who recently graduated has been unable to find a job.  My BF just graduated/took the bar and now has a job and six figure salary.  He was in the top 1/2 of the class, but not the top 10 percent. 
Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: Changed Name on November 03, 2008, 07:07:19 PM
Hi Big-

I'm a 3L at GGU and I am happy with the school.  It has a great location, staff, and student body.  GGU just remodeled its law library (it opened a week ago), bookstore, and cafe.  Many of the professors teach at Boalt and Hastings also.  We read the same textbooks and have the same homework assignments as every other law school.  Yes, we are a tier 4 school.  This is because our entering statistics are lower and, until recently, our bar pass rates were significantly lower that other CA ABA schools.  The school was put on probation by the ABA in 2006, but has subsequently been taken off probation.  This is because the bar pass rates are back up- 68% for first time takers and 80% overall for the July 2007 bar.  If I could have gotten into Boalt or Hastings, of course I would have gone, but that wasn't my reality.  I had a little too much fun in college. :) I had a solid LSAT score (162) but an abysmal GPA (2.6).

All BS aside, it's not a stellar "brag about the name" institution.  But there is nothing wrong with GGU.

People carry on about the number of people who fail out... most GGU first years are like me- smart kids who had a lot of fun in college, did not enter with the best work ethic, and after a semester of law school realized it was time to buckle down or seek life elsewhere.  Those who didn't pull it together were out.  I regard this as a good thing (it made me get my ducks in a row) and the primary reason the school's bar rate has risen so dramatically.

I honestly think it is unfortunate how quickly people who have 0 experience with the school are ready to rip it to pieces.  And, I think some of the most negative posts you find are from those who didn't make the cut...

As for job placement, no one I know who recently graduated has been unable to find a job.  My BF just graduated/took the bar and now has a job and six figure salary.  He was in the top 1/2 of the class, but not the top 10 percent. 

Not to doubt you or anything, but I'm just curious.  Did your BF have any specialized background (IP, Tax... etc.)?  Is he working at a law firm? 

GGU may be a good school, but I think the way the post was written makes it seem like it's easy to go there, take on tons of debt and come out doing well.

I go to a school that is certainly not one of the best.  It's at the end of the "top fifty" and I'm pretty sure that people who are graduating at the middle of pack aren't getting six figure salaries or anything.

I think you're right that people who haven't ever gone to the school can't truly give the school a fair assessment, but I also think that you're over looking the fact that there are some generalizations that can be made which are based in some reason.  It's generally the case that people who do end up going to lower ranked schools have a tougher time finding jobs.  That's the case with people all over the place! 

More than anything, though, I think that people who are considering ANY school should be able to find enough information about the school so that they will be able to make a MUCH BETTER and more INFORMED decision about whether or not they want to attend that specific school.

First hand experience, like that of SF.3L, is great; but, it's still just one perspective of many.

I don't think the OP has been back here since he initially posted, though.
Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: Ninja1 on November 03, 2008, 07:26:30 PM
...

But there is nothing wrong with GGU.

...

Except the cost, bar passage (62% against an artificially deflated CA average of 65%), employment prospects (22% unemployment? Holy christ... if GGU was a country, that would be the 31st highest in the world. Well, you might not be Serbia or Sudan, but you're sure beating Afghanistan), attrition rate (especially for 1Ls), the entering classes numbers, that whole "nearly losing accreditation" thing...
Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: SF.3L on November 04, 2008, 09:31:30 AM
1) Law school costs a bundle no matter where you go.
2) Bar pass rates are back up.  GGU's first time bar pass rate was 8 percent higher than the ABA average for 2007.
3) Employment prospects: certainly not as good as graduating from a tier 1 school, but better than than the odds a BS in  History yields at the end of undergrad.
4) Attrition rate: affected by a) those who transfer at the end of 1L year to a better institution, b) night students who realize they have bitten off more than they can chew, and c) slackers who don't pull it together and fail out.  The point is, if you prioritize law school and work hard you will be just fine.
5) Entering class numbers: I assume you mean the generally lower statistics (LSAT/GPA)?  We're a tier 4.
6) "Nearly losing accreditation": Key word, "nearly".  GGU remains a fully accredited law school.

I'm not saying the decision to attend GGU will bring you all the benefits attending a tier 1 school would.  My point is simply, graduating from GGU earns you a JD and gives you the chance to practice law just like every other law school.  GGU students have to fight a little harder to get good grades and jobs, but that is because most of us just skated through undergrad.  The morale of the student body is good.  My classmates are generally happy people.

As to Sr.'s question, my BF did specialize in IP law.  And he landed an awesome job due to connections and personality.  These latter two traits are just as important as repute of the institution and GPA.  And, thankfully, wholly independent.

Bottom line, if you can get into a tier 1, 2, or 3 school, you should go.  But if your choice is to forgo law school entirely of attend a tier 4, attend a tier 4.  To use Ninja's metaphor- we're not a super power country, but a country nevertheless and even a tier 4 JD is a JD.  After a few years of practice, employers care much more about the quality and quantity of work than GPA/institution.
Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: rhesusman on November 09, 2008, 04:36:51 PM
But if your choice is to forgo law school entirely of attend a tier 4, attend a tier 4.  To use Ninja's metaphor- we're not a super power country, but a country nevertheless and even a tier 4 JD is a JD.  After a few years of practice, employers care much more about the quality and quantity of work than GPA/institution.

Unless you can't see yourself doing anything but practice law and you have anchored your entire identity on that career choice, I still think that, for most people (particularly those who don't have connections), if Golden Gate is the only school you have the chance to attend, it might be a good idea to rethink going to law school.  It's true that Golden Gate is completely qualified to give JDs by the ABA.  But most people don't just want a JD, they want a JD and a reasonable chance of getting a job that will allow them to pay off their loans.  And I think that if you attend Golden Gate law school, you could be taking a substantial risk of ending up in a worse position financially than you would have been had you not gotten a JD.

Let's look at the most recent statistics the school reported to US News and World Report.  The average indebtedness of a GGU student is $112,477.  The median private sector starting salary is $65,000, and you have to figure that most graduates will be living in SF - not a cheap place.  Of the students who elected to report their employment status, 71% were employed nine months after graduation.  Of the employed graduates, only 54% were actually practicing law.  And these are the numbers the school reported to US News and World Report - schools tend to pad these, so the reality might be worse.  All of this, of course, assumes that you aren't part of the 36.9% of students who doesn't make it out of 1L year.  To me, this exposes GGU students to an undesirable amount of risk.  It's not that you can't have a successful career in law if you go there.  Every law school has successful graduates, like your boyfriend.  The problem is that with tier 4 schools, the odds become increasingly small that you will be one of them.  Law school graduates can have desirable outcomes (like getting a good paying or fulfilling job), and undesirable outcomes (bad job or no job and/or high debt).  All law schools produce students with both types of outcomes, but when you go to a tier 4 school, the odds of an undesirable outcome are greater.  I don't think I could advise someone in good conscience to take a chance on GGU unless they could not see themselves doing anything else with their lives.

Also, and this to me is a big strike against tier 4 schools generally and GGU in particular, law school doesn't cost an exorbitant $32,940 "no matter where you go."  In state tuition at various state schools around the country is often $15,000 or less per year.  I think it's very much worthwhile to strive to get an LSAT score that can get you into a cheap state school.  If you're going to a school that can't promise its graduates great job prospects, it should at the very least not charge as much as GGU.
Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: randyers09 on November 22, 2008, 05:20:09 PM
 I believe that regardless of the statistics if you go into a school motivated you can land a good job out of GGU or just about any law school. Because you have to believe that the lower tier schools attract quite a few people who dont deserve to be in law school...
Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: Ninja1 on November 23, 2008, 07:49:29 PM
I believe that regardless of the statistics if you go into a school motivated you can land a good job out of GGU or just about any law school. Because you have to believe that the lower tier schools attract quite a few people who dont deserve to be in law school...

... and a lot of really motivated people that know how stacked the odds are against them because of their bad school. Motivation is fine and dandy, but remember, most of the people at *&^% law schools are aware of their situations and are trying to finish as high as possible to transfer out, get a good job when they graduate (or any job really), or just not fail out. And when only a small percentage will be able to transfer, only a small percentage will be able to get good jobs coming out, and a large percentage will fail out, that's going to cause motivation levels to go way up.

You can be as motivated as you want, but at the end of the day, so will most people at any law school, and especially at the really bad law schools.
Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: Changed Name on November 27, 2008, 09:23:41 PM
As someone with a lot of experience interviewing and then hiring in the SF legal market, I'll throw this out there (expecting 0ls to lose their minds).  California markets are all VERY regionally biased.  If you want to work in SF, you are better off going to GGU than 2nd tier schools like Loyola, Pepperdine, or Mcgeorge and than lower T1 schools that are more distant like UArizona or UFlorida.  If you want to work in LA, go to Chapman over USF and Santa Clara.  GGU grads are shut out of most biglaw jobs straight up, but they still do fairly well in the SF market due to the prime location and networking opportunities.  I didn't go there for my JD, but I know some of the professors there and have worked with and against some of their alumni.  Their saturation of the SF market is thorough and, as a lawyer in the area, I could not discount any graduate of the school, although it was a bit hit-or-miss (for the record, it was also hit-or-miss for USF, SCU, and Berkeley).  For reference, I would compare it to Southwestern in LA or John Marshall in Chicago.



Hey, Theor.

I'm a Bay Area native, and my whole family still lives there.  I went to Berkeley undergrad and now I'm at a law school (ranked 40-50) in a different state on a scholarship. 

I want to move back home for sure, at least after I graduate.  What do you think my chances of getting a job in the Bay Area would be from a regional school outside the region?  I never thought it'd be "easy" but I thought since all my connections/roots are from there, I would have more credibility than someone random who just wants to move.

Better for me to transfer?
Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: SamE397 on January 04, 2009, 02:19:19 PM
A few points

1. It's true that the base rate of tuition is approximately $30,000 The actual tuition paid by many students is far less though about 50% of students in the 2011 class were getting scholarships and the avergage of which was $14,000


2. It may be true that the california bar is deflated but even students who went to Berkeley only passed the bar at 85%, so I think some people on here might be underestimating just how intesive the california bar is

3. To the guy from the midwest saying top grads at his school weren't making as much as the recent graduate from GGU. I hate to break it you but people in california make a lot more than most other people in the U.S that's just the way it is. There's a trade off because it is much harder to get into law school, graduate, and pass the bar in california.

4. I had a 156 lsat and had a 3.69 GPA, I could have gotten into USF, but I would have probably had to pay full or close to full tuition. For me personally going to GG seemed to make the most sense if I wanted to chase the California dream; I've chosen not to but I don't dismiss anyone who choses to.
Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: SamE397 on January 04, 2009, 04:07:55 PM
I believe that regardless of the statistics if you go into a school motivated you can land a good job out of GGU or just about any law school. Because you have to believe that the lower tier schools attract quite a few people who dont deserve to be in law school...
While Ninja's reply has a lot of wisdom in it; I wouldn't necessarily dismiss this train of thought if you're someone who is in the top of you class entering in, why should you care about the averages?

I think there's two things here basically

1. Maybe you shouldn't IMO if you really want to practice in the bay area or you can't go to school somewhere else; going to GGU near the top of your class on scholarship makes a hell of a that more sense than going to USF paying full tuition and graduating middle to bottom of your class.

2. High attritions rates and low average prospects can make for a very stressful environment not to mention more work because people are clawing to get near the top. Even if you're someone who's near the top of your class I think the average trends can create very serious quality of life and educational environment issues.

Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: Ninja1 on April 05, 2010, 11:03:55 PM
Here it is this is what pissed me off this thread is why I have been posting on here a lot. F'ing idiots who knew nothing about GGU made me terrified to go there and I nearly moved to Michigan based on this thread and numerous other internet postings that terrified me of going to GGU. However, GGU is fine, the two people with experience at the school on this thread said it was good, but instead of listening to them I nearly listened to idiots with no experience with the school talk me into not going. Honestly, if you are considering a tier 4 law school do not listen to what people say any ABA law school will provide you with the proper education to be an attorney. I just looked back at this post and can't believe what people said about GGU who had absolutely no experience with the school it is SHOCKING that people will degrade a school they know nothing about.

NINJA no offense to you, but I am just picking on you at random FSU has 22 people that didn't pass the bar and then 10% of those people didn't even have a job, the rest probably work at McDonald's.  I could say that about FSU and the fact that 22 people didn't pass the bar is true, it does not make FSU a bad school by any means.

Obviously 22 people not passing the bar happens and I am sure no FSU grad is working at McDonald's, but hell maybe they do truth is I don't know, but I won't insult your school and you shouldn't insult a school you nothing about. No offense to Ninja you say a lot of good things, but I am baffled that you and other people that have no experience with a school will insult and scare people away from attending. GGU is a fine school and I have been very happy with it. I wish I had NOT taken things I saw on the internet seriously, when deciding to attend law school and I really hope someone will learn from my mistake and realize ABA schools will give you the proper education to be a lawyer and if you are considering law school DO NOT LISTEN TO NEGATIVE THINGS PEOPLE SAY ABOUT SCHOOLS UNLESS THEY HAVE DIRECT EXPERIENCE THERE. THE END!

I don't try to scare people away from anything, but I don't sugar coat the situation either.

For the purposes of this discussion, because you already went there, I'm just going to discuss FSU v. GGU to illustrate why the buyer should beware about GGU.

If you think 22 of FSU's 314 JDs not passing the bar is a big deal, I'd LOVE to hear what you have to say about 73 of GGU's 203 JDs not passing the bar. Every school has its clunkers, it's a fact (I blame law schools not interviewing during the admissions process). I know some people that are here now and some that have already graduated that will never be attorneys for a number of reasons, but usually it's not academic inability. At GGU, academic inability will be but one of many hindrinces among the student population. Let us not forget that GGU failed out 47 people (including 12 2Ls) in the same time period that FSU failed out 2 1Ls.

Ultimately, law school is what you make of it. The problem with most schools outside of the T2 is that you only have so much to work with. GGU is no exception. You might have had an excellent experience there, congrats, I am honestly happy that you beat the odds. That doesn't change the fact that, in the most recent LSAC numbers, over 1/3rd of GGU's graduates DID NOT PASS THE BAR, which is basically the whole point of going to law school. And that's the problem. For every 1 person FSU fails, 14 are serviced (rounding down). For every 1 person GGU fails, 3 are serviced (rounding up). Law school is a gamble and people in the T4 have the worst odds.

Oh, and FSU is a public school. Even if you get burned, if you're a resident, you're only out about $36k for tuition at FSU. At GGU, you're over $100k upside way down.
Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: Capitol Hillbilly on February 04, 2011, 10:09:10 AM
Bigs,
thanks for your impassioned defense of Golden Gate, you're right that too much interweb-opinion about T4 schools is both misleading and annoying. I enjoy that the folks on this forum are actually talking about value factors other than the USNWR rankings; at the TLS forums people are obsessed with the school's brand, and everybody thinks GGU is KMart. I am personally waiting on acceptance letters, hoping I get into Hastings or USF, but will definitely consider GG if that's my only choice. I have a 153/158 LSAT and a mediocre GPA, plus I'm ancient (35 years old). I can't decide if I should put off school another year and apply again in 2012, or attend GGU if it's my only choice. Any comments? :-\
Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: bigs5068 on February 04, 2011, 10:58:27 AM
Those are all fine schools. If you have a 158 odds are you will get a substantial scholarship from GGU. Check out lawschoolnumbers.com to see the scholarship offers that other students received. This site is helpful for all 0L's to get an idea of what kind of scholarship money and acceptances they can expect from every ABA school. At any of those schools particularly Hastings and GGU you will get a lot of the same professors. Peter Keane, Michael Zamperini, Marc Greenberg, Jon Sylvester look them up and miraculously they teach the same subject with the same textbook at GGU and Hastings. Somehow Hastings is 49th and GGU is 112th.

Hastings is the better school, but worth paying full price opposed to a scholarship at GGU? That is debatable. Bottom line is go to law school if you want to be a lawyer and any one of those schools will prepare you and allow you to take the bar. Be wary of the costs and realize employment from any of those schools will be difficult. Stanford & Berkeley are right here not to mention plenty of people from Harvard, Yale, UCLA, etc want to move to San Francisco.
Title: Re: Questions about Golden Gate
Post by: like_lasagna on February 04, 2011, 10:18:30 PM
Hastings is the better school, but worth paying full price opposed to a scholarship at GGU? That is debatable.

Nope. Not debatable. Hastings is much, much better. Your point has merit generally, but that's far too wide of a gap to jump w/ a scholarship.