Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Acceptances, Denials, and Waitlists => Topic started by: jamesgoldsack on July 22, 2008, 07:02:15 PM

Title: Accepted off waitlist but may be too late
Post by: jamesgoldsack on July 22, 2008, 07:02:15 PM
I just heard from a T14 that I have been accepted, but I have already put a seat deposit and first and last months on a place near the T40 school that I will probably be attending.  Scholarship/Grant money is 15k a year less and I'll be losing about 3 grand if I accept off the waitlist, is it worth it?
Title: Re: Accepted off waitlist but may be too late
Post by: Ender Wiggin on July 22, 2008, 09:41:59 PM
Yeah, it's worth it.  If you can find a way to afford taking the hit, take the hit.
Title: Re: Accepted off waitlist but may be too late
Post by: Ninja1 on July 23, 2008, 12:48:39 PM
Which T14 and which T40?
Title: Re: Accepted off waitlist but may be too late
Post by: Ender Wiggin on July 23, 2008, 05:38:15 PM
Which T14 and which T40?

Are you really seriously asking that question?  It doesn't matter, and it doesn't matter, and if the OP had to eat $20,000+ it would still be worth it. 
Title: Re: Accepted off waitlist but may be too late
Post by: just Trev on July 23, 2008, 05:45:01 PM
i know what the common consensus is on this board, but there are many factors which may be more important to OP than just academic prestige.  the city in which the schools are located would be a big one for me.  the $45k in scholarship money is a huge deal...especially if OP were to finish top 10% at the T40, and bottom of the class at a T14.  this just doesn't seem as open and shut of a case as some would like to make it...
Title: Re: Accepted off waitlist but may be too late
Post by: just Trev on July 23, 2008, 05:57:35 PM
what if he drops out because he hates the people at the T14?  what if China invades and we're all sent to concentration camps based on where we went to grad school?  i don't think that it's so incredibly wild to assume that the OP may have a better shot at finishing better in his class at a T40 than at a T14 given the level of students.  that being said, you failed to address my main point which is that there are MANY more things to consider than just academic prestige: scholarship money, location, family ties, to name a few.  without more info regarding the schools he's considering, it's hard to say either way.  if OP were talking about W&L (T40) and UVA (T14), then it's pretty much a no brainer.  however, if we're talking about University of Arizona (T40) and NYU (T14), then there's a LOT more to consider. 

again, i am aware of the consensus on this board that the T14 is sacred and should not be passed up NO MATTER WHAT, but i think OP COULD be in one of those unique situations where he may need to consider it. 



Title: Re: Accepted off waitlist but may be too late
Post by: just Trev on July 23, 2008, 06:08:29 PM
No, there isn't.  He could graduate at the bottom of his NYU class and still have his pick of AZ jobs.  Yes, there are many other things to consider, but the OP states the the only loss will be 45k and a seat deposit.  In that case, it's a no-brainer.

actually, that's not what he said.  he said he WILL lose those things.  he didn't say they'd be the only disadvantage to him moving.  also, he could graduate at the TOP of his NYU class, and be the biggest feminine hygiene product ever, and still be unemployed in 9 months...it actually happens.  are you really trying to think through his problem, or are you just rattling off some answer you've seen posted on these boards over and over and now you take as fact??
Title: Re: Accepted off waitlist but may be too late
Post by: imwithhappy on July 23, 2008, 06:10:15 PM
No, there isn't.  He could graduate at the bottom of his NYU class and still have his pick of AZ jobs

I don't agree with this.  A NYU grad will get asked his class rank just like a Arizona or ASU grad will.  Hiring Partner at Phoenix/Tucson Biglaw  Firm takes the candidate with Arizona ties unless that person was bottom of their class as well.

OP needs to somewhat clarify his location, schools, and where he/she would like to practice if they want practical advise.
Title: Re: Accepted off waitlist but may be too late
Post by: just Trev on July 23, 2008, 06:12:28 PM
No, there isn't.  He could graduate at the bottom of his NYU class and still have his pick of AZ jobs


OP needs to somewhat clarify his location, schools, and where he/she would like to practice if they want practical advise.

exactly. 
Title: Re: Accepted off waitlist but may be too late
Post by: Ninja1 on July 23, 2008, 06:33:46 PM
Which T14 and which T40?

Are you really seriously asking that question?  It doesn't matter, and it doesn't matter, and if the OP had to eat $20,000+ it would still be worth it. 

Curiosity really. Plus I'm trolling for a good ol' fashioned Duke v. UNC fight.

OP's actually going to eat almost $50k more in debt based on his numbers. That's not a lot in the long haul, but it's a lot right now.

And there are circumstances where he'd be better at a lower ranked but still well regarded school. Example: I'd hate my life if I lived in Michigan or Ohio for any amount of time.
Title: Re: Accepted off waitlist but may be too late
Post by: just Trev on July 23, 2008, 06:42:24 PM
are you guys freaking kidding?  what does personal happiness mean in the face of a law school's academic prestige and weight in the job market?!?  this is a NO-BRAINER!
Title: Re: Accepted off waitlist but may be too late
Post by: just Trev on July 23, 2008, 06:51:41 PM
Hatechu

 ;)
Title: Re: Accepted off waitlist but may be too late
Post by: bt on July 23, 2008, 06:58:43 PM
I'd take the T14 over the T40.  Job prospects are inevitably better.  I'd be scared to go to a lower ranked school that only sends 30-40% to biglaw, because I don't think anyone can accurately predict how they're going to do.  There are certainly variations within the T14 (and there are some schools outside of the T14 that offer comparable career opps), but generally speaking the higher up in the chain you go, the bigger safety net you've got.

Moreover, pedigree seems to be quite important in the legal sphere.  It depends on your ambitions.  If you were getting at least half-ride (and for me, it'd need to be full ride) from the T40, then you'd have a dilemma.  But if the T40 is only giving you 15k a year, to me this is a NO BRAINER!   ::)

But seriously, unless you've got some serious factors tying you to the T40 besides the little bit of money you've been given, T14.  Now if you're really looking for some fun, call up the T40, tell them what's happened, and haggle for more money!
Title: Re: Accepted off waitlist but may be too late
Post by: just Trev on July 23, 2008, 07:04:45 PM
  Now if you're really looking for some fun, call up the T40, tell them what's happened, and haggle for more money!

good advice
Title: Re: Accepted off waitlist but may be too late
Post by: imwithhappy on July 23, 2008, 08:25:47 PM
IIf you were getting at least half-ride (and for me, it'd need to be full ride) from the T40, then you'd have a dilemma.  But if the T40 is only giving you 15k a year, to me this is a NO BRAINER!   ::)

15k a year is a Full ride at some state schools...  OP needs to clarify his particulars because the wild-ass speculation here is running rampant.
all figures assume in-state since we don't know about OP's particulars

Univ of Wash-22K yr  ranked 30
Ohio State- 20k yr ranked 32
Univ of Iowa- 16k ranked 27
Univ of Georgia- 12K ranked 32
if the OP said T40 he/she probably meant #40 which is:
UNC 13K yer
UC hastings 24k yr
Univ of Maryland  21k yr

location matters in law school decisions, T14 esp if it isn't HYS doesn't carry that holy grail that all you speculators think it does.  If you want to work in NYC/Boston/DC then NYU is a great option, if you want to work in Seattle then you had better take your 15k at Washington.
Title: Re: Accepted off waitlist but may be too late
Post by: imwithhappy on July 23, 2008, 08:55:26 PM
Aren't you a 0L?  What do you know about hiring practices from top schools?

As far as hiring practices at top schools, I don't know crap.  And I would suspect that most here don't. What hiring experience do you have from the top schools?  Still hanging out on the pre-law LSD board after you graduated from the T14?  I highly doubt it.      But having travelled this country extensively and met many people from varying walks of life I have a feel for how people conduct themselves in business.  I stand by my statement that a Univ of Washington grad will get a job in Seattle or the PNW over a NYU grad if that NYU grad has no ties the PNW.  Just to make it fair lets say top 20% at either school for each job applicant.   Please feel free to discredit this.
Title: Re: Accepted off waitlist but may be too late
Post by: bt on July 23, 2008, 08:57:58 PM
IIf you were getting at least half-ride (and for me, it'd need to be full ride) from the T40, then you'd have a dilemma.  But if the T40 is only giving you 15k a year, to me this is a NO BRAINER!   ::)

15k a year is a Full ride at some state schools...  OP needs to clarify his particulars because the wild-ass speculation here is running rampant.
all figures assume in-state since we don't know about OP's particulars

Univ of Wash-22K yr  ranked 30
Ohio State- 20k yr ranked 32
Univ of Iowa- 16k ranked 27
Univ of Georgia- 12K ranked 32
if the OP said T40 he/she probably meant #40 which is:
UNC 13K yer
UC hastings 24k yr
Univ of Maryland  21k yr

location matters in law school decisions, T14 esp if it isn't HYS doesn't carry that holy grail that all you speculators think it does.  If you want to work in NYC/Boston/DC then NYU is a great option, if you want to work in Seattle then you had better take your 15k at Washington.

My point is, if the OP is in at a T40 school (any of the schools you've listed, for that matter) and is now also in at a WL, he/she has some leverage.  Even if 15k a year is full tuition (which according to your list it is not at most schools) the OP should be working to leverage money for living expenses, stipend, etc.

Were your implicit assumption about me true, I would not be telling the OP to still consider the lower ranked schools over the T14.  And yes, regional schools can be good, but the general rule of thumb is that T14 schools are national and if you're aiming for biglaw or great PI jobs (which many on this board are), T14 will dominate in this area moreso than others.
Title: Re: Accepted off waitlist but may be too late
Post by: Ninja1 on July 24, 2008, 01:38:55 AM
And there are circumstances where he'd be better at a lower ranked but still well regarded school. Example: I'd hate my life if I lived in Michigan for any amount of time.

D'you know what? I have to agree with that, but substitute NYC for Michigan.

NYC never did a lot for me, but I guess I'd take it over California, Chicago, and D.C. . I think I almost disqualify myself from big law just based on that.
Title: Re: Accepted off waitlist but may be too late
Post by: Ender Wiggin on July 24, 2008, 04:05:27 PM
No, there isn't.  He could graduate at the bottom of his NYU class and still have his pick of AZ jobs.  Yes, there are many other things to consider, but the OP states the the only loss will be 45k and a seat deposit.  In that case, it's a no-brainer.

actually, that's not what he said.  he said he WILL lose those things.  he didn't say they'd be the only disadvantage to him moving.  also, he could graduate at the TOP of his NYU class, and be the biggest feminine hygiene product ever, and still be unemployed in 9 months...it actually happens.  are you really trying to think through his problem, or are you just rattling off some answer you've seen posted on these boards over and over and now you take as fact??

I think assuming OP is a feminine hygiene product was a master stroke.
Title: Re: Accepted off waitlist but may be too late
Post by: Ender Wiggin on July 24, 2008, 04:10:00 PM
I'd take the T14 over the T40.  Job prospects are inevitably better.  I'd be scared to go to a lower ranked school that only sends 30-40% to biglaw, because I don't think anyone can accurately predict how they're going to do.  There are certainly variations within the T14 (and there are some schools outside of the T14 that offer comparable career opps), but generally speaking the higher up in the chain you go, the bigger safety net you've got.

Moreover, pedigree seems to be quite important in the legal sphere.  It depends on your ambitions.  If you were getting at least half-ride (and for me, it'd need to be full ride) from the T40, then you'd have a dilemma.  But if the T40 is only giving you 15k a year, to me this is a NO BRAINER!   ::)

But seriously, unless you've got some serious factors tying you to the T40 besides the little bit of money you've been given, T14.  Now if you're really looking for some fun, call up the T40, tell them what's happened, and haggle for more money!

Oh my goodness.  Even if the T40 was giving me a full ride (which many of them did), I would (and did) still pick the T14.  I would have gone to Michigan even if they hadn't given me anything, and (since I have already started I can tell you this without doubt) I would have been incredibly happy with my decision.  I'm learning from some of the best professors in the world, and I will be saying the same thing every semester for the next 2.5 years. 
Title: Re: Accepted off waitlist but may be too late
Post by: bloomlaw on August 28, 2008, 09:11:16 PM

Oh my goodness.  Even if the T40 was giving me a full ride (which many of them did), I would (and did) still pick the T14.  I would have gone to Michigan even if they hadn't given me anything, and (since I have already started I can tell you this without doubt) I would have been incredibly happy with my decision.  I'm learning from some of the best professors in the world, and I will be saying the same thing every semester for the next 2.5 years. 

How can you say that when you haven't studied at another school? I like living in the United States, but I have no idea what it's like living in Japan or New Zealand, so I can't say this is the best or even a good place to be, comparatively. All I can say is that I like it here.

Also, what if he doesn't want big law. What if he debt aversive. What if he has a job lined up. There are so many other questions outside of that, the question can not be answered easily.
Title: Re: Accepted off waitlist but may be too late
Post by: Ender Wiggin on August 29, 2008, 07:21:41 AM

Oh my goodness.  Even if the T40 was giving me a full ride (which many of them did), I would (and did) still pick the T14.  I would have gone to Michigan even if they hadn't given me anything, and (since I have already started I can tell you this without doubt) I would have been incredibly happy with my decision.  I'm learning from some of the best professors in the world, and I will be saying the same thing every semester for the next 2.5 years. 

How can you say that when you haven't studied at another school? I like living in the United States, but I have no idea what it's like living in Japan or New Zealand, so I can't say this is the best or even a good place to be, comparatively. All I can say is that I like it here.

Also, what if he doesn't want big law. What if he debt aversive. What if he has a job lined up. There are so many other questions outside of that, the question can not be answered easily.

I have never been married to anyone but my wife, but I can tell you (with the same level of certainty) that I am incredibly happy with my decision.  It's really not that difficult.  Michigan is an incredible place, and it IS certain that I would prefer to be here over any other school.  (Yes, that includes Harvard, Yale, or Stanford.) 

Michigan is not a big-law lawyer factory, nor are many (any?) of the other top schools.  You can certainly get those types of jobs, and many people here want and get them, but you can do whatever you want coming from here.  Michigan has an incredible LRAP program, so debt-load is not an issue. 

What I said about my professors is very important, and would be less likely at a lower-ranked school.  I took Contracts from the guy who wrote the book, wrote the hornbook, and knew the guy who wrote much of Article 2 of the UCC.  My Property professor wrote the book, and is incredible.  My CivPro professor is probably the top CivPro guy in the country. 

Michigan is a different kind of place, and I don't need to go anywhere else to know how happy I am here.
Title: Re: Accepted off waitlist but may be too late
Post by: bloomlaw on August 29, 2008, 06:36:43 PM

Michigan is a different kind of place, and I don't need to go anywhere else to know how happy I am here.

And there is my point. Your happiness (and I don't mean to be harsh, happiness is hard to find, and I'm glad you found a school you enjoy) has nothing to do with which school he wants to go here. But you can't say it is any better or worse than other schools, because you don't know. You can only say it is good. You say you would rather go to Michigan over Yale, and that is surely incomprehensible to certain students from Yale. Just like someone could want to attend and choose Arizona over Michigan, and certain students from Michigan or any t14(you included, as you said in one of your earlier posts in this thread) would find it incomprehensible to choose a t40 over a t14, probably using very similar arguments as the Yale student to Michigan.

And if what you said were the case about knowing you will be happy with your wife- everyone believes that for the most part, and if it were true for everyone, no one would ever get divorced.
Title: Re: Accepted off waitlist but may be too late
Post by: Ender Wiggin on August 30, 2008, 03:00:44 PM

Michigan is a different kind of place, and I don't need to go anywhere else to know how happy I am here.

And there is my point. Your happiness (and I don't mean to be harsh, happiness is hard to find, and I'm glad you found a school you enjoy) has nothing to do with which school he wants to go here. But you can't say it is any better or worse than other schools, because you don't know. You can only say it is good. You say you would rather go to Michigan over Yale, and that is surely incomprehensible to certain students from Yale. Just like someone could want to attend and choose Arizona over Michigan, and certain students from Michigan or any t14(you included, as you said in one of your earlier posts in this thread) would find it incomprehensible to choose a t40 over a t14, probably using very similar arguments as the Yale student to Michigan.

And if what you said were the case about knowing you will be happy with your wife- everyone believes that for the most part, and if it were true for everyone, no one would ever get divorced.

My happiness wasn't the point of my original post--it was a rebuttal to your comments.  The difference between Arizona and Michigan is much bigger than the difference between Yale and Michigan, and if I was younger and single, and not tied to the Michigan market, I might have considered going to Harvard or Yale over Michigan, but probably only one of those two. 

And at least half of the people who get married are idiots.
Title: Re: Accepted off waitlist but may be too late
Post by: bloomlaw on August 30, 2008, 07:19:53 PM
Yeah, I guess. But that is only your opinion, and in the eyes of a Yale student, they would say the same thing about Michigan. Does Michigan really place better than Arizona in Arizona and New Mexico? I doubt it.

But yes, TITCR about marriages.