Law School Discussion

Law Students => Current Law Students => Topic started by: nachas on July 02, 2008, 05:00:47 PM

Title: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: nachas on July 02, 2008, 05:00:47 PM
Hi.  I was enrolled for my first semester at John Marshall in the spring and didn't do so well.  At midterms, my grandfather died (the morning of for K) and I thought I had overcome ADD, but didn't test well.  There is no question that I learned the material, I was active in class, and even received an email from a prof thanking me for working so hard and telling me that I will one day be an excellent lawyer.  Finals came, and I studied approximately 60-80 hours for each test.  When test day came, I was the first one out of the exam and my study buddies all called me to thank me for teaching them concepts that they didn't understand before we had set up our finals study group.  I got a B, a C+, and 2 D's.  I was academically dismissed for having a 1.713 gpa (the cutoff was 1.75).  I spoke to all my profs and the schools policy is that grades cannot be changed unless there was a computational error.  One prof personally spoke to academic services on my behalf because he believed in me.  Now I'm somewhat screwed.  The school has no appeals process and my best shot is to return to school in a year or wait 2, then apply to other schools.  Like other schools are looking for people who were academically dismissed...
SO, here are my questions:
1)  What do I tell friends and my girlfriends family?  How do I approach these conversations?
2)  Does anyone have any stories about being dismissed, coming back, being denied, what happened after they returned, etc?

John Marshall is a decent school (sort of) but they don't handle themselves professionally.  Per federal law, they are required to have an exit interview to explain federal loan programs and how they are now affected by dismissal.  Instead, they sent me a letter saying "Since it is inconvenient to set up this meeting, we sent you this form instead."  When I called, they said that due to security concerns, they aren't sure if I can come in for an exit interview.  This, of course, is horseshit.  I am no more a security concern now than I was when I was a ft student!  Plus, I will in all likelihood reapply.  The moron who wrote the letter put me through to the dean and I left a voicemail which has not been returned.
And one more thing, I met with the director of academic services who told me that if my K prof was willing to give me points for the midterm (due to my grandfathers death) and if that would change my grade, she'd be fine with that.  Then the prof went to speak to her and she told him that he couldn't change the grade. 
Don't be fooled, potential JMLS students, JMLS is a churn and burn law school that mandates at least a 10% attrition rate.  Presumably, this is to increase bar passage rates and up their USNAWR ranking (which, of course, it wont).  They aren't as rough as cooley, where the attrition rate is much higher, but this school charges as much or more as other schools and provides you with similar, if not deficient, education.
If you get accepted to JMLS, I feel compelled to warn you to reconsider another school.  Looking back, I should have gone to NIU, Kent or DePaul.
Most law schools have a lower threshhold for academic dismissal (1.6, 1.5, etc), give you a full year to turn around (most schools understand and care that the first semester requires a massive adjustment), or have an appeals process (for cases such as mine where a family member passes or there is an untreated learning disability).  JMLS is too lazy and confused to consider these possibilities.  The fact is that JMLS is ranked where it is BECAUSE of their insane policies, not despite them.
The worst part is that most schools don't dismiss students at all, especially higher ranked schools.  Med students are rarely dismissed as well.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: TH14 on July 02, 2008, 06:15:50 PM
I feel for you...

My school (T2) has a two-step process of academic dismissal for 1Ls - (1)you are placed on probation if your GPA for the first semester is below 2.00; (2)if after the second semester, your cumulative GPA is below 2.00, you get dismissed.  In other words, you at least get a "warning" and a "second chance" before getting kicked out.  Petitions for reinstatement are available according to the student handbook, but only apply to extraordinary situations, such as having mental/physical disorders when taking the exams.

Being dismissed based on your first final exams seems really, really harsh.  In fact, I would have been dismissed if my school adopted the same policy as yours (I was on probation after the first semester, but thankfully, recovered sufficiently in the second semester).

You mentioned other schools you should have gone to - were you accepted at those schools?  Your best bet would appear to be to re-take the LSAT if need be, and re-apply to other schools.  They will no doubt have information on your dismissal, so to overcome that you may want to address the issues you experienced at mid-term in your personal statement.  You seem adamant on trying law school again, so give it your best shot.  Sorry I don't have any good answers to your specific questions.

Good luck. 
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: StrictlyLiable on July 02, 2008, 10:10:18 PM
At midterms, my grandfather died (the morning of for K) and I thought I had overcome ADD, but didn't test well.

This statement tells me all I need to know about you. Maybe if you didn't make lame excuses for yourself, you'd have more success.  You kind of sound like one of those pre-laws from the other side of the house, "hey all, I earned a 2.1 UGPA and a 132 LSAT, but I have ADD, suffer from depression, have one malformed testicle, and prematurely ejaculate. If I put this in my personal statement, can I go T14?"
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: OConnorScribe on July 03, 2008, 09:20:57 AM
Strictly liable's post is exhibit A as to why law school students have such a poor reputation. Worry about your own stuff and about yourself, jerkov.

For what it's worth, the mental stuff is a legitimate excuse. While I did fairly well, though not great (I AM the median) at my school this year, I take medication for depression and it inevitably does affect your concentration and day-to-day management, so that you can learn a great deal all semester but then be on the downslope on test day and subsequently watch everything implode. This is the major frustration of living with a legitimate physiological mental illness. My transcript is a real screwball -- good grades in the theoretical courses (Con Law Contracts, Torts, Property) and okay to bad in the two 3-credit suites (Civ Pro and the ridiculous Crim Law/Legal Research and Writing hybrid class. Some of this is inherent differences for me in comfort and confidence with specific subject matter and case law, but two of the grades (a Crim final and Civ Pro II) were directly blasted by a brain cloud that caused some silly reading and logic errors and anxiety and woe over multiple choice and short answer questions. In one class, Civ Pro II,. I finished in the bottom four among testtakers, even though my professor and a few of my peers acknowledged my knowledge the Erie doctrine and personal jurisdiction bodies of law was pretty sophisticated.  I could have played the illness card and received deferrals to make-up dates or be wisked away to the quiet room for the ADD and other depression cases, but I don't like to do that, because I'm stubborn and determined to make it through the cloud. My professor's line: "You had a bad day." No foolin' :-) 

Point is, this is a valid fear for many law students and it sounds like JMLS has unconscionable management. OP -- did JMLS even inform you of assistance options ... or did have any alternative arrangements at all? Is there an academic support or counseling system in place? Forced attrition without appeal is a terrible policy that serves no one well -- it besmirches the idea of education, and quality professors and renowned scholars suffer reputationally ebcause of the misddeeds of administrative meatheads.

My school just lowered its flunk-out cutoff to 2.0 from 2.3 in recognition of this. The school is certainly maturing and becoming really student-focused. Its days in T3 should end within five years -- only reasons it's there still are because the school is only 30 years old and is looked at nationally as *just* a NYC school rather than a Westchester/Bronx/Fairfield County one -- we're uniquely a two-pond operation.

JMLS, unfortunately, is solely in the Chicago pond, and you'd think they;d do everything to acknowledge this and step it up as an institution. Sadly, that doesn't look to be the case. Keep your chin up, dude. And don't quit on your dream. Work as a paralegal for a year or two, learn the Illinois procedural rules, get a better handle on the ADD and then give it another shot. Also, be aggressive in communicating your needs to wherever you land next.   

 
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: OConnorScribe on July 03, 2008, 10:11:42 AM
One other note to StrictlyLiable. I saw on another thread that you mocked the notion of these concentration disabilities affecting outcomes in law school by pondering whether a judge would allow extra time, etc. Not the same darn thing. A timed three-hour hypo test written by Ivory Tower types, and timed tests that amount to professors whipping it out and crowing about their ability to write complex riddles, is not the same thing as a pre-trial hearing, or a deposition interview and tactical undertaking in real law. The prep process for these figures to be more focused, less mysterious and is built upon the creation of products, motions, scripts and contingent strategies. While there is improvisation and negotiation under pressure ... there is none of the guerilla, sight-unseen b.s. some law school exams present.

The one benefit of blowing an exam in law school as result of a lack of focus or the presence of extreme anxiety or instantaneous depression is this: You learn what subjects and tasks you will need to study further and carve out more study and prep time for in the future. You also learn what you can't fake your way through when you're treating and coping with depression -- THAT is incredibly valuable. The C- I got is the most valuable dungburger I'll ever eat.

PS -- Didn't you attend Widener? While it has a pretty good rep, from what I gather, isn't it the JMLS of the Philly market? The school for the ones who couldn't get into Temple or Villanova or Drexel? You're not at a T14, and a unqualified clown or two probably operate in your administration as well, as they do in mine. Your mocking superiority shtick is just not credible, even if some of your other posts on other threads stress that the bar is ultimately what matters. So knock it off.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: nachas on July 03, 2008, 12:38:13 PM
At midterms, my grandfather died (the morning of for K) and I thought I had overcome ADD, but didn't test well.

This statement tells me all I need to know about you. Maybe if you didn't make lame excuses for yourself, you'd have more success.  You kind of sound like one of those pre-laws from the other side of the house, "hey all, I earned a 2.1 UGPA and a 132 LSAT, but I have ADD, suffer from depression, have one malformed testicle, and prematurely ejaculate. If I put this in my personal statement, can I go T14?"

Very nice.  Of course, the sad part is that I didn't make any excuses for myself, nor did I use excuses to justify slacking off.  I worked harder than everyone else.  Just so you know, I took some time off during undergrad (about 5 years) and when I returned, I was on the dean's list without medication.  Once again, dipstick - I worked harder than everyone else this semester.  I did not slack.  I attended every class.  I came prepared.  My profs all told me that my classroom participation and exhibited knowledge and understanding levels were not reflected in my test scores.  I received an email from a professor that says this, and I am quoting:
"It was a great honor and pleasure to have you in my Contracts One class here at The John Marshall Law School. Throughout the last several months, I have repeatedly observed certain students display an uncanny ability to decipher very complex issues of law and outperform their peers, as well portray an uncanny appreciation for professionalism, self discipline and personal accountability.  Indeed, you were one such student.  Although I am unaware of your specific exam scores, my class greatly benefited from your high degree of enthusiasm, preparation, demonstrated intellect and excellent communication skills. Moreover, I felt I could count on you to volunteer and perform well on very challenging questions regarding complex issues of law and theory as well as accept responsibility for your need to improve.

Your performance not only illustrates significant intellectual talent, but strong leadership potential. To that end, you are well positioned to win the respect and admiration of your peers should you continue to apply yourself as you have done in my classroom.  Your apparent tireless work ethic, keen appreciation for attention to detail, and consideration for others will serve you well in the legal profession and I'm happy to have been apart of your learning process. 

You would be an invaluable asset to virtually any organization and it is with great enthusiasm and regard that offer my thanks for your efforts in my class and advise you that your classroom efforts were duly noted and a credit to you.  "
So, once again, the virtiolic nonsensical a-holes like you prove to jump to conclusions and behave in a way that illustrates your own deficiencies.  Expected, but dissapointing.

What I wrote were explanations of mitigating circumstances.  I didn't test well, partly because of the death of my personal hero (a holocaust survivor who came to this country with a child, a third grade education, and no ability to speak english who retired a millionaire after starting his own construction business) and partly because I had relied on my work ethic and determination to overcome my add.  Since this had worked in college, I thought it would work in law school.  I was mistaken.  My ADD creates anxiety in testing conditions.  Imagine how anxious you might feel laying in a bed of slithering snakes, and you can get a sense of the type of anxiety I suffer during a 3 hour test that generates my only grade for a given law class. 
You sir, are a royal jerk.  Once again, this board proves to be chock full of grade A a-holes with a minority of calm, collected, helpful people.  Go play around in XOXO if you want to get your rocks off by being a jerk.  This is supposed to be the more mature, helpful, friendly board.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: nachas on July 03, 2008, 12:45:34 PM
At midterms, my grandfather died (the morning of for K) and I thought I had overcome ADD, but didn't test well.

This statement tells me all I need to know about you. Maybe if you didn't make lame excuses for yourself, you'd have more success.  You kind of sound like one of those pre-laws from the other side of the house, "hey all, I earned a 2.1 UGPA and a 132 LSAT, but I have ADD, suffer from depression, have one malformed testicle, and prematurely ejaculate. If I put this in my personal statement, can I go T14?"

And one more thing, jackass - the profs who gave me D's BOTH told me that had I been in the previous semesters class (my class did abnormally well), my same test scores would have given me C's.
Last year, the high score on the property final was 69%.  This semester the high score was a 92%.  The prof showed me the scores from both semesters.  As a matter of fact, my score would have been just off the curve.
I guess you forgot that the curve works that way - you aren't tested on your knowledge, but rather your test score versus your peers.
I've NEVER made excuses before and I'm not about to start now.  I have held several high responsibility jobs before and been met with a high degree of success.  Unlike you, I'm willing to bet, I've actually held a real job and had some actual financial success that hasn't required me to ask my family for money since I was 19 years old.  You keep using daddy's credit card to buy stuff and mommy's check book to pay for the rent.  I'll move on now, because people like you (pompous, friendless losers) are exactly the type of people folks like me avoid at all costs. 
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: mike4488 on July 03, 2008, 12:54:16 PM
Well, I think this post is pretty lame and I am not going to call anybody names but I wouldn't go around saying you worked harder than anybody else and got academically dismissed.  One you have no idea how hard the rest of your classmates worked and if you worked harder than everybody else and were academically dismissed well maybe law school isn't for you.

However, sorry for your situation and best of luck to you in the future whether that be law school or other endeavors.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: StrictlyLiable on July 03, 2008, 01:09:46 PM
Strictly liable's post is exhibit A as to why law school students have such a poor reputation.

I am not a student, I am a graduate.

Quote
For what it's worth, the mental stuff is a legitimate excuse.

No, its not. Let me give you a background, I have worked in the mental health field for over a decade as a counselor and supervisor at a residential treatment facility, a crisis worker and mental health delegate, and a manager of a group home. I know and understand mental illnesses better than nearly anyone on this site.

ADD/ADHD is a bull diagnosis for hyperactive and unfocused people who need an excuse for their life's failings. Yes, there a some biological diferences between a normal functioning person and one who has ADD/ADHD, but it is nothing that hasn't been overcome in the past and the symptoms are not anywhere near debilitating. Lack of attention span, inability to focus for long periods of time, and restlessness are all things that can be overcome with discipline and willpower WITHOUT the aid of medications. Have you ever noticed that the only people on this site who mention they have ADD are applicants making excuses for their poor numbers and students making excuses for their poor grades? I am sure that there are more who have been diagnosed with it, but because of theor work ethic and discipline, it didn't effect their performance and isn't a prominent player in their life (thus, it doesn't get mentioned). Others, like the OP, who lack any sort of discipline or composure, use it as a crutch not to excel and an excuse when they fail. ADD/ADHD has become a generation's built in excuse to fail, plain and simple.

As for depression, Major Depression Disorder is one of the most over-diagnosed illnesses in the DSM-IV. Do you know what you have to do to get a diagnosis of MDD? Go to your county MH/MR intake specialist and tell them that you have thoughts of self-harm. That's it. It has become a dorrway for slackers and deadbeats to receive disability funds, instead of being a productive member of society. Now, there are some people out there with the real disorder. Those people who have such chemical imbalances in their brain, that their mood is in a constant state of depression. Those people need medications just to reach a normal baseline. They are the ones who truly have it tough. For most though, they are merely experiencing a depressed cycle due to certain environmental factors, lack of coping skills, obesity, bad nutrition, substance abuse, etc. These people are the ones  who largely reject traditional therapy that can bring them out if it in favor of being prescribed medications that sometimes exacerbate the problem and allow them to take advantage of the system and using "depression" as a crutch.


Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: StrictlyLiable on July 03, 2008, 01:19:11 PM
What I wrote were explanations of mitigating circumstances.  I didn't test well, partly because of the death of my personal hero (a holocaust survivor who came to this country with a child, a third grade education, and no ability to speak english who retired a millionaire after starting his own construction business) and partly because I had relied on my work ethic and determination to overcome my add.  Since this had worked in college, I thought it would work in law school.  I was mistaken.  My ADD creates anxiety in testing conditions.  Imagine how anxious you might feel laying in a bed of slithering snakes, and you can get a sense of the type of anxiety I suffer during a 3 hour test that generates my only grade for a given law class. 
You sir, are a royal jerk.  Once again, this board proves to be chock full of grade A a-holes with a minority of calm, collected, helpful people.  Go play around in XOXO if you want to get your rocks off by being a jerk.  This is supposed to be the more mature, helpful, friendly board.

*yawn* more excuses. Again, most law students suffer some sort of difficulties during school and work through it just fine. For me, during first year my grandfather also passed away. He did so, 2 DAYS BEFORE FINALS. He too, was one of my personal heroes (immgrated here with his family in the 70's, worked in a factory his whole life to support them, etc. etc.). In addition, I too have the ADD diagnosis, along with explosive anger. The difference between me and you is that I am disciplined as a result of military training, have a bastion of effective coping mechanisms at my control due to my training in mental health, and just flat out refuse to allow myself to fail. I do not use my issues as excuses.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: StrictlyLiable on July 03, 2008, 01:37:33 PM
At midterms, my grandfather died (the morning of for K) and I thought I had overcome ADD, but didn't test well.

This statement tells me all I need to know about you. Maybe if you didn't make lame excuses for yourself, you'd have more success.  You kind of sound like one of those pre-laws from the other side of the house, "hey all, I earned a 2.1 UGPA and a 132 LSAT, but I have ADD, suffer from depression, have one malformed testicle, and prematurely ejaculate. If I put this in my personal statement, can I go T14?"

And one more thing, jackass - the profs who gave me D's BOTH told me that had I been in the previous semesters class (my class did abnormally well), my same test scores would have given me C's.
Last year, the high score on the property final was 69%.  This semester the high score was a 92%.  The prof showed me the scores from both semesters.  As a matter of fact, my score would have been just off the curve.
I guess you forgot that the curve works that way - you aren't tested on your knowledge, but rather your test score versus your peers.
I've NEVER made excuses before and I'm not about to start now.  I have held several high responsibility jobs before and been met with a high degree of success.  Unlike you, I'm willing to bet, I've actually held a real job and had some actual financial success that hasn't required me to ask my family for money since I was 19 years old.  You keep using daddy's credit card to buy stuff and mommy's check book to pay for the rent.  I'll move on now, because people like you (pompous, friendless losers) are exactly the type of people folks like me avoid at all costs. 

Well, now I see another reason who you flunked out . . . intellectual laziness. If you had cared enough to do a simple post search prior to making those sweeping assumptions about me, you would have known that I am the exact opposite of the caracature you described above.

I am 30 years old, married with two young children (and another on the way). I have worked in the mental health field for over a decade. In addition to going through law school and dealing with the issues I listed above, I worked full-time (about 50 hrs per week) and raised two children during all 4 years, not to mention all my civic activities like being a town councilman and a knight of columbus. In addition, I am a homeowner and have not lived with my parents since graduating high school in the mid 90's. My entire family (except for my one gay uncle who is a dean of a university in FL) is all dirt poor and gave ZERO assistance to me during undergrad and law school.

The only thing you got right about me is that I am pompous, but that comes with being a lawyer so I take that as a compliment.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: StrictlyLiable on July 03, 2008, 01:40:21 PM
At midterms, my grandfather died (the morning of for K) and I thought I had overcome ADD, but didn't test well.

This statement tells me all I need to know about you. Maybe if you didn't make lame excuses for yourself, you'd have more success.  You kind of sound like one of those pre-laws from the other side of the house, "hey all, I earned a 2.1 UGPA and a 132 LSAT, but I have ADD, suffer from depression, have one malformed testicle, and prematurely ejaculate. If I put this in my personal statement, can I go T14?"

And one more thing, jackass - the profs who gave me D's BOTH told me that had I been in the previous semesters class (my class did abnormally well), my same test scores would have given me C's.
Last year, the high score on the property final was 69%.  This semester the high score was a 92%.  The prof showed me the scores from both semesters.  As a matter of fact, my score would have been just off the curve.
I guess you forgot that the curve works that way - you aren't tested on your knowledge, but rather your test score versus your peers.
I've NEVER made excuses before and I'm not about to start now.  I have held several high responsibility jobs before and been met with a high degree of success.  Unlike you, I'm willing to bet, I've actually held a real job and had some actual financial success that hasn't required me to ask my family for money since I was 19 years old.  You keep using daddy's credit card to buy stuff and mommy's check book to pay for the rent.  I'll move on now, because people like you (pompous, friendless losers) are exactly the type of people folks like me avoid at all costs. 

Well, now I see another reason who you flunked out . . . intellectual laziness. If you had cared enough to do a simple post search prior to making those sweeping assumptions about me, you would have known that I am the exact opposite of the caracature you described above.

I am 30 years old, married with two young children (and another on the way). I have worked in the mental health field for over a decade. In addition to going through law school and dealing with the issues I listed above, I worked full-time (about 50 hrs per week) and raised two children during all 4 years, not to mention all my civic activities like being a town councilman and a knight of columbus. In addition, I am a homeowner and have not lived with my parents since graduating high school in the mid 90's. My entire family (except for my one gay uncle who is a dean of a university in FL) is all dirt poor and gave ZERO assistance to me during undergrad and law school.

The only thing you got right about me is that I am pompous, but that comes with being a lawyer so I take that as a compliment.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: nachas on July 03, 2008, 01:43:06 PM
"Others, like the OP, who lack any sort of discipline or composure, use it as a crutch not to excel and an excuse when they fail. ADD/ADHD has become a generation's built in excuse to fail, plain and simple."

Ok, mr. Expert.  You are correct.  You win.  You are smarter and more disciplined than everyone else and all I've been doing is making excuses.
Nevermind that I've run several multi-million dollar businesses.  Never mind that I worked for a fortune 500 company in sales.  Never mind that I was selected out of 5000 employees to help create a new division.  Never mind that I've lived my whole life with nothing but success.  Never mind that when I went back to undergrad I was on the deans list every semester until graduation without medication. You are superior to everyone else.
Let me fill you in on a little reality here - your experience in the mental health field is either an outright fabrication or illustrative of your own failures as a professional.  Not one single solitary expert I have spoken to has the disdain and fury directed towards ADD/ADHD as you do.  My best friend in law school has ADHD.  When I told him what was going on with me, he told me that without his meds, he couldn't have done well at all.
And for a law school graduate to spend so much time making fun of law students illustrates your inability to work and be successful.  Successful, working attorney's simply don't have time to disparage people seeking advice.
But a law school graduate with no friends and no job?  Well, that person has PLENTY of time to attack people for medically recognized disabilities.
Studies have shown that while ADHD is not new, it was undiagnosed.  Historically, people with ADHD have a higher rate of working blue collar jobs, getting arrested, and having other difficulties.  However, with medication many of the people with these same issues have little difficulty obtaining advanced degrees.
And when I say that I worked harder than everybody else, this is of course my opinion.  I base this upon conversations with people about how many hours of study, class prep, and exam prep they did.  I averaged 50 hours a week outside of class preparing each week.  Beyond that, I devoted an additional 10-20 hours a week studying the material to make sure I had mastered it.  For exams, I prepped 60-90 hours per test.  That amount of work exceeds most students.  Period.  

I simply do not believe that a person with a decade of work in the mental health field would ever say anything remotely resembling the following statement:
"ADD/ADHD is a bull diagnosis for hyperactive and unfocused people who need an excuse for their life's failings. Yes, there a some biological diferences between a normal functioning person and one who has ADD/ADHD, but it is nothing that hasn't been overcome in the past and the symptoms are not anywhere near debilitating. Lack of attention span, inability to focus for long periods of time, and restlessness are all things that can be overcome with discipline and willpower WITHOUT the aid of medications. "

Leading mental health experts couldn't disagree with you more.  And working as a janitor in a mental hospital doesn't mean you worked in the mental health field.  Tell you what, give me your name, the name of the facility you worked at, your supervisors name, and your former title.  I'll call your old boss and ask him if ADD/ADHD is a bull diagnosis for unfocused people.  I'm curious to see if anyone, anywhere in the mental health field shares your opinions.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/adhd/complete-publication.shtml
I didn't find the words or implication of a 'bull diagnosis'.
From wikipedia:
The scientific consensus in the field, and the consensus of the national health institutes of the world, is that ADHD is a disorder which impairs functioning, and that many adverse life outcomes are associated with ADHD.

You must be smarter than most scientists and know more than the majority of them, huh...

Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: StrictlyLiable on July 03, 2008, 02:43:56 PM
Ok, mr. Expert.  You are correct.  You win.  You are smarter and more disciplined than everyone else and all I've been doing is making excuses.
Nevermind that I've run several multi-million dollar businesses.  Never mind that I worked for a fortune 500 company in sales.  Never mind that I was selected out of 5000 employees to help create a new division.  Never mind that I've lived my whole life with nothing but success.  Never mind that when I went back to undergrad I was on the deans list every semester until graduation without medication. You are superior to everyone else.

Says the guy who flunked out of law school. ::)Later in the post, you accuse me of lying about who I am. Who is more likely lying, the guy who jsut graduated law school and describes work experience in the mental health profession or the guy who claims to be a mutli-millionaire business executive who can't muster better than a 1.7 GPA in law school? Hmmm, I wonder.

Quote
I'm curious to see if anyone, anywhere in the mental health field shares your opinions.

"The reason I speak of a hoax in the case of "attention deficit disorder" is that there is no such "mental disorder" to "diagnose" and "treat." And the reason I speak of a great hoax is that the less competent medical practitioners use this phony "diagnosis" as a warrant to "treat" millions of school children (over 5,000,000) per year by intoxicating them with brain-disabling narcotics.
And make no mistake about the power of Ritalin to disable and eventually shrink the brain. It differs little in its destructive effects from cocaine and the amphetamines, and is fast becoming the drug of choice among addicts in high schools and colleges. Children in middle schools and high schools who are required to take Ritalin daily at school are now selling their pills to their friends who want to get a quick fix. Of late the victims of pill pushers are fast becoming pill pushers themselves!"--David Kiersey
 
For the rest of his journal article visit: http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/david_keirsey.html

Quote from: nachas
And when I say that I worked harder than everybody else, this is of course my opinion.  I base this upon conversations with people about how many hours of study, class prep, and exam prep they did.  I averaged 50 hours a week outside of class preparing each week.  Beyond that, I devoted an additional 10-20 hours a week studying the material to make sure I had mastered it.  For exams, I prepped 60-90 hours per test.  That amount of work exceeds most students.  Period.

If you really studied this much and STILL couldn't get better than a 1.7 GPA, then you are probably not smart enought to go to law school. Sorry. The law isn't for everyone. Its clear that is true for you.

Quote from: nachas
You must be smarter than most scientists and know more than the majority of them, huh...

No, I just have nothing to gain financially from a generation of over-medicated zombie children who need a regimine of treatment to sit still and focus on schoolwork. ADHD is a business and a lucrative one at that. But hey, think what you like. Use your issues as a crutch, that's your business. However, at the end of the day, no matter how much you complain and no matter how many names you call me, I graduated law school and in a few months will be a licensed attorney while you will still be a law school flunk out . . . but at least you still have your millions, right? ::)

Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: nachas on July 03, 2008, 03:49:48 PM
First of all, thanks for being so nice.  There really is nothing more satisfying than kicking someone when they are down.  I appreciate it.
I didn't "flunk out" of law school.  I didn't fail anything.  
And I never said I was a multi-millionaire (seriously, how did you pass law school classes without even basic reading comprehension skills?), I said I ran mutli-million dollar businesses.
I say you are lying about your history because I still haven't come across a single mental health professional who would agree with your statements so far.
And not everyone deals with the loss of family members the way you do.  Especially when their family is as small as mine, thanks to the nazis.  My grandfather and grandmother were two of the three people who escaped the holocaust.  While I'm sure you have loads of cousins, my grandfather lost three brothers and sisters and every one of his cousins, aunts, and uncles.  My grandfather was the patriarch of the family.  I didn't mourn his death until after finals.  But thanks for making fun of me for it.
And you dare quote Kiersey?
From Wiki:
"Keirsey's stance regarding ADHD has led him to count himself among the minority of clinical psychologists who believe that giving psychotropic stimulants to schoolboys, whose greater activity and/or distractible temperaments are considered disruptive to classroom proceedings, was not only unnecessary but harmful to these boys."
and
"Several of his statements, such as his warning to "make no mistake about the power of Ritalin to disable and eventually shrink the brain" ([2]), while scientifically valid to a certain point, are considered to be exaggerations by some and contradict most clinical studies, although these studies are often conducted or financed by pharmaceutical industry. "

Yeah, why not quote scientology next.  It lends credibility to quote people or groups that are widely thought of to be just plain wrong.

But this was my favorite assumptive, know nothing statement so far:
"If you really studied this much and STILL couldn't get better than a 1.7 GPA, then you are probably not smart enought to go to law school. Sorry. The law isn't for everyone. Its clear that is true for you."
Really?  It's that clear?  That's funny.  I guess my K prof was wrong when he told me that I was the most prepared, articulate, and knowledgeable student he had this year.  I guess my attorney friends who were SHOCKED that I didn't do well are all wrong too.  You must be right.  You know so much about me.  I'm not smart enough?  An interesting analysis from a complete lunatic.
Could it possibly be that I have a learning disability and that coupled with the unexpected loss of a close relative may have logically resulted in some bad test scores?  Not to you!  Mr. Smarty Pants soon to be lawyer knows it all, and part of that knowledge is that people don't have problems, people don't get affected by life, and if you have a couple of bad tests, you don't belong in law school and are incapable of becoming a successful attorney.  Thanks for the expert opinion.
I would like to invite you to go f yourself.  Cocky, arrogant, elitist scum like you give the profession the bad name that sadly follows everyone who practices the law.  For every nice, competent, kind hearted attorney, there are three or four jerks like you, ruining it for the rest of us.
I don't use my issues as a crutch.  I used them to explain the mitigating factors that contributed to my school problems.  One semester.  3 tests.  That's why I'm not going back for a while.  I had exactly 4 graded tests that contributed to my grades (and I have been out of school for 4 years) and that's enough for you to judge me as incompetent and incapable of becoming a lawyer.
Again - thanks for kicking me while I'm down.  I know, my mistake for believing that a forum board dedicated to creating "an online community where law school related issues could be discussed in an organized, friendly, and informative manner" would have members that would be civilized in their responses.  People like you make me want to give up on my dream.  But I won't.  Because kicking the ass of people like you in court has to feel all the better knowing that some lawyers feel superior to other people.
You're probably a nice enough guy in real life.  The internet has a way of making people feel like tough guys.  You aren't a tough guy.  You are a marginally intelligent person who is incapable of sympathy, kindness, and courtesy.  Enjoy being the guy that everyone knows as an insufferable prick.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: pretetmanger on July 03, 2008, 07:31:29 PM
I was skeptical of your warning about JMLS, thinking you were just pursuing a personal grudge.  But then I decided to look up a few things.  I checked a bunch of random schools, like U of Houston, Georgetown, W&L - just some random schools from different tiers.

The majorit of all the schools I looked at had anywhere from 0 - 5 students who left as a result of academic attrition.  But JMLS had 36.  That's thirty-six.  That was such an outlier, it really seems the OP may have a point.  If you figure collecting full tuition from 36 kids for a year, that's over a $1million per year they collect from the entering class.  Not good.  Of course, I was not able to check multiple years, so not sure if this number was an aberration, or their norm. 
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: OConnorScribe on July 03, 2008, 11:57:36 PM
**Those people who have such chemical imbalances in their brain, that their mood is in a constant state of depression. Those people need medications just to reach a normal baseline. They are the ones who truly have it tough.**

I'd say this describes most of the people who are admitted to law school, dude. Is there some use of the crutch that goes one culturally? Of course. But I'm offended that you would include the lack of coping skills as some how being something to ridicule, along with obesity, etc. Ever think there's a reason that some people struggle with coping. Because they never were allowed to develop those skills or had real trauma or familial issues that caused a lot of pain and lost self-esteem that preceded the depression? Then, once major depression disorder grabs hold, then it's a little like alcoholism ... you have to deal with the problem rather than beat yourself for your failings. I hate dealing with depression. I'm on three different meds for it right now (was recently four, but I weaned myself off one because I 1. was afraid of the overmedication and 2. lost trust in my last doctor), plus Synthroid. And awful economic luck (layoffs and media-industry chaos) has led to several moves to new cities and the loss and reclamation of health insurance, which means I've had to go on and off meds because of the costs, making things worse -- and permanent. (I've done the therapy thing, which helps but is a process separate from the drugs). Consequently, my life is a perfect balance of success and disappointment ... it's tough. Even so, I'm in the middle of the class after my first year and have time now to prepare for the second year and adjust my meds accordingly. I've accomplished a lot and have a lot of positives to draw from (both in my previous career and from this first year -- two A-minuses in perhaps the two toughest classes and lots of other wins).

Long way of saying, daily life with a mental disorder is not an excuse. As I posted earlier, I never play the "poor, sick me" card for accommodation and favors. The OP did his best, and he didn't play any cards either; but sometimes the disorder just wins, and it sucks when a test day comes and the beast bites you in the ass. FWIW -- while I share some skepticism about ADHD, it's really a just a breakout related to other mental disorders. So a proper diagnosis for ADHD is really just unnecessary fancy psychiatry that cleverly sells another patented drug and lines the shrink's pocket. It all springeth from the same source.

And again, you're a Widener grad -- I mean, you had to go to school in Delaware because your metrics couldn't keep you in Philly. Your school is just as T4 as JMLS. You're no great legal mind; you're just another prick with a JD. Just like most everyone outside of T20. I'm at a T3 in the NY suburbs (ha -- my schlong is bigger than yours). And I'll also be just another prick with a JD.

So step off and go do another insurance defense case as a temporary hire ...  :P     
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: nachas on July 04, 2008, 12:10:18 AM
I was skeptical of your warning about JMLS, thinking you were just pursuing a personal grudge.  But then I decided to look up a few things.  I checked a bunch of random schools, like U of Houston, Georgetown, W&L - just some random schools from different tiers.

The majorit of all the schools I looked at had anywhere from 0 - 5 students who left as a result of academic attrition.  But JMLS had 36.  That's thirty-six.  That was such an outlier, it really seems the OP may have a point.  If you figure collecting full tuition from 36 kids for a year, that's over a $1million per year they collect from the entering class.  Not good.  Of course, I was not able to check multiple years, so not sure if this number was an aberration, or their norm. 

No grudge.  I'll probably go back there if they accept my readmission application.
The facts are the facts.  36 isn't an outrageous number.  I'm telling you the truth - they absolutely rely on dumping 10-15% of each class.  I just found out that in my class of 80 (spring admits only), 10 were academically dismissed, with double that on academic probation.  It's the curve and the way they write/enforce it. 
I only learne about this after we took the K midterm, about a month or so before finals, when someone asked the prof how the curve works.  Grades for any given one L class of D or F are awarded to no fewer than 10% and no more than 20% of the class.  Meaning in a class of 80 students, anywhere from 8-16 students get D's or F's.  Academic dismissal is set at 1.75, meaning that if you get more than one D, you are basically screwed.
And someone has to get those D's.  My property professor straight up told me that had I taken this same test and gotten the same score a semester earlier, I'd be looking at a C/C+ instead of a D.
JMLS designs their classes to fail out between 10 and 20% of each class.
Last year they admitted over 450 students or so (I think), so 36 academic dismissals would be a lean year.....
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: nachas on July 04, 2008, 01:34:39 AM
One L academic dismissals by school (Illinois schools):
University of Chicago: 0
chicago-kent: 11
Depaul: 10
U of I: 0
Loyola: 0
NIU: 3
Northwestern: 0
Southern Illinois: 5
------------------------------
total: 29

John Marshall: 36

You read that right - John Marshall dismisses more students than all of the other law schools in the state of Illinois combined.

And they wonder why they are ranked so low.....
And I don't buy the argument that those other schools draw better students either.  JMLS mandates a certain failure rate of between 10 and 20%.
Thar's the problem.  Clearly, I did not test well.  But statistics don't lie and many of these schools either have a lower dismissal gpa or give the student a full year to turn around any grade issues.  The curve, as applied by JMLS, is designed to cause a 10-15% dismissal rate per year.  They outpace every other school combined. 
And again, I'm not airing a grudge - I'll most likely be reapplying.  I'm looking for three things:
-advice
-to warn others considering JMLS
-success stories (or failure stories) from students who either were dismissed and came back, or saw a grade swing due to ADD/ADHD diagnoses and treatment.
I am not looking for people to kick me while I'm down or for people to tell me the law is not for me.  It is.  I can talk law with any one L, any attorney, and any prof.  I just tested poorly.  I'm not sure why this has to be included as a disclaimer, but so be it.
Thanks to those who responded.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: mtfbwy on July 04, 2008, 07:28:01 AM
I'm sorry to hear about your dismissal, and the tuff circumstances you faced during your semester.  But please allow me to point a couple of things out.

Yes, JMLS dismisses more 1L's than all other IL schools combined (the number used to be much higher).  You know why?  Because JMLS was built on a policy that (almost) "everybody" should be given the opportunity to pursue a legal education (I believe it was the first in the city to admit African-Americans and women).  It maintains that policy today, opting to place the harsher "filter" on 1L grades than on the LSAT.  That's what law school comes down to: the top schools are filled with people who scored very well on a test; students at 4th tier schools (for the most part) did poorly on the LSAT, and a good 4th tier school like JMLS needs to rely on 1L exams as a type of "post admissions entrance exam." 

You say that you can "talk law" with lawyers, professors, etc., but have testing problems.  Well, it doesn't end with the LSAT or law school exams.  There is, unfortunately, a BIG test awaiting all law school grads, or at least those who want to practice law.  Imagine taking ALL of the exams you took during that one semester of 1L, but doing so in about ONE HOUR. That's what the bar is like, for twelve hours. 

JMLS might admit nearly everybody who applies, but there's a reason that 90% of its 2007 grads passed the bar last July.  Despite being a 4th tier school, JMLS grads account for 20% of IL judges, including 2 on the IL Supreme Court, they are partners at every major firm in Chi, have thriving solo practices, and everything in between.

Believe me, I'm not trying to knock you down.  I bombed the LSAT, and started at JMLS. I had serious doubts about whether I should attend, especially after getting a B- my first semester.  But by the end of 1L, I was in the top 12% or so, and transferred to a T30.  This in no way makes me any smarter than you - no more than a Harvard law grad who scored a 175 on the LSAT is "smarter" than me.  We just did better on a few exams.  If you decide to take another crack at it, remember that it's all about the exams - the law is the easy part.

Good luck to you, whatever you decide to do.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: pickle on July 04, 2008, 09:16:47 AM
The correlation between LS performance and bar passage is very high.  You were dismissed because, based upon JMLS's numbers you are likely not to pass the bar.  The only advice you need:  move on, don't look back, and fuk JMLS.  Law is not for you.  Fuk your study buddy love and your professor love.  All that demonstrates is that you're not dumb.  No fukin shitt.   

The school dismissing 36 1L students demonstrates that the school took 36 too many.  They would be happy to take their tuition for 2 more years if those students were likely to pass the bar.  You went to a school with high attrition, and that school dismissed you.  It is what it is.  The worst thing you could do is go back for more. 

Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: jeffislouie on July 04, 2008, 10:33:35 AM
The correlation between LS performance and bar passage is very high.  You were dismissed because, based upon JMLS's numbers you are likely not to pass the bar.  The only advice you need:  move on, don't look back, and fuk JMLS.  Law is not for you.  Fuk your study buddy love and your professor love.  All that demonstrates is that you're not dumb.  No fukin shitt.   

The school dismissing 36 1L students demonstrates that the school took 36 too many.  They would be happy to take their tuition for 2 more years if those students were likely to pass the bar.  You went to a school with high attrition, and that school dismissed you.  It is what it is.  The worst thing you could do is go back for more. 




Whoa.  So what you are saying is that you can tell who will pass the bar and who will not after one semester?  One test in property, one test in torts, and one midterm and final in contracts?  That's all it takes to determine that someone can't pass the bar?
What about the loss of OP's grandfather and the untreated learning disability?  What about the fact that the last test OP took was over 4 years ago?
I appreciate your opinion, but I just can't believe that conclusions like you seem to think have been made can be accurate after one semester of work.....
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: classic695 on July 04, 2008, 10:34:14 AM
nachas,

How do you think you're going to pass the bar exam if you are readmitted to JMSL?

You obviously can't do as well on law school exams as the vast majority of students at a T4 law school, so what makes you think you'll be able to pass the bar exam, where you will be competing with all those T4 students who did better than you on your exams as well as students from (much) better law schools?

This should be a serious consideration before you expend any more time/money on law school.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: nachas on July 04, 2008, 10:41:44 AM
nachas,

How do you think you're going to pass the bar exam if you are readmitted to JMSL?

You obviously can't do as well on law school exams as the vast majority of students at a T4 law school, so what makes you think you'll be able to pass the bar exam, where you will be competing with all those T4 students who did better than you on your exams as well as students from (much) better law schools?

This should be a serious consideration before you expend any more time/money on law school.

Well, first of all the bar exam isn't competitive against other students.  You are taking a test to pass or fail.  I passed all of my classes and have failed none.
Additionally, I believe that if I treat the learning disability properly, I won't have issues with low grades.  As I said before, the shock of all this comes from the fact that I know the material.  I taught some of it to other students who had problems and those around me believe me to be knowledgable - and expert in the courses I took.  This semester was rough, but I don't think that the problem was that I didn't learn the material.  My problem was how my brain handled the testing pressure and time constraints.
People can change, adapt, and learn.  To say that because I took 3 tests poorly, that I am incapable of doing as well as my peers is a little presumptive.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: NeverTrustKlingons on July 04, 2008, 10:43:52 AM
I would really just sum this up as something that happened in one semester.  If you want to try again and are given the opportunity to do so, don't listen to fatalist messages about failing the bar and not being cut out for the job, etc.

Many of us have gone through periods of sub-par academic performance.  It doesn't have to follow you forever.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: pickle on July 04, 2008, 10:44:58 AM
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/09/24/the-science-of-passing-the-bar-exam-does-first-year-torts-really-matter/

"To test this theory, Rush and Matsuo documented every student’s courseload for five different graduating classes at the St. Louis Law School, analyzing the number of bar topic courses taken against bar passage rates the first time the students sat for the exam. Their results were unequivocal: no relationship existed between law school courseloads and the passage rate of students ranked in the first, second or fourth quarters of their law school class, while only a weak relationship existed for students who ranked in the third quarter. Overall, Rush writes, “students in the upper two quartiles passed the exam at an extremely high rate and those in the fourth quartile failed at a high rate, regardless of which classes they took in law school.” The researchers repeated the test in 2007 using data from the Hofstra University School of Law, with identical results (which do not appear in the study)."

Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: classic695 on July 04, 2008, 10:49:57 AM
nachas,

How do you think you're going to pass the bar exam if you are readmitted to JMSL?

You obviously can't do as well on law school exams as the vast majority of students at a T4 law school, so what makes you think you'll be able to pass the bar exam, where you will be competing with all those T4 students who did better than you on your exams as well as students from (much) better law schools?

This should be a serious consideration before you expend any more time/money on law school.

Well, first of all the bar exam isn't competitive against other students.  You are taking a test to pass or fail.  I passed all of my classes and have failed none.
Additionally, I believe that if I treat the learning disability properly, I won't have issues with low grades.  As I said before, the shock of all this comes from the fact that I know the material.  I taught some of it to other students who had problems and those around me believe me to be knowledgable - and expert in the courses I took.  This semester was rough, but I don't think that the problem was that I didn't learn the material.  My problem was how my brain handled the testing pressure and time constraints.
People can change, adapt, and learn.  To say that because I took 3 tests poorly, that I am incapable of doing as well as my peers is a little presumptive.

Your performance on your law school exams this year shows that your aptitude for taking law school exams is at the lowest possible level among law school students - you were academically dismissed from (i.e., failed out of) a fourth tier law school. Such a low aptitude will very likely not allow you to pass the bar exam (no matter how smart you are aside from law school exams), which is an exam with all (if not more) of the time constraints and pressure of law school exams.

Knowing the material and being able to pass exams are two entirely different things (and, contrary to your assertion, you clearly failed some of your exams - whether it's called a B, a D, or a Z, if the grade is below the minimum required not to fail out of law school, it's a failing grade). Yes, you may know the material, and yes your law professors may think you could be a great lawyer, but unless you can show some aptitude for taking law school exams, which at this point seems clearly impossible, it is extremely unlikely that you will be able to pass the bar.

This may be a good opportunity to save the money you would have spent on two more years of law school and do something else - what would you have wanted to do as a lawyer, anyway? And would a degree from John Marshall (with a terrible GPA) have allowed you to do it? Realistically, no, it wouldn't have. See http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119040786780835602.html for starters - a law degree is not a magical ticket to wealth (or even a job), especially a law degree at the bottom of one's class from a T4.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: Bob23 on July 04, 2008, 11:04:43 AM

  It's the curve and the way they write/enforce it. 
I only learne about this after we took the K midterm, about a month or so before finals, when someone asked the prof how the curve works.  Grades for any given one L class of D or F are awarded to no fewer than 10% and no more than 20% of the class.  Meaning in a class of 80 students, anywhere from 8-16 students get D's or F's.  Academic dismissal is set at 1.75, meaning that if you get more than one D, you are basically screwed.

This is the only comment I've seen you make so far that I think is unwarranted. I am in the process of transferring out of JMLS, and the curve wasn't/shouldn't have been a surprise. If you did any research going into school, you should have known 1L is curved there. The curve is in the Student Handbook, and was discussed at Orientation. I don't think there is any excuse for not knowing what the grading policy is going in. That said, it sucks you were dismissed, and I can certainly understand your general frustration.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: Matthies on July 04, 2008, 12:30:46 PM
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/09/24/the-science-of-passing-the-bar-exam-does-first-year-torts-really-matter/

"To test this theory, Rush and Matsuo documented every student’s courseload for five different graduating classes at the St. Louis Law School, analyzing the number of bar topic courses taken against bar passage rates the first time the students sat for the exam. Their results were unequivocal: no relationship existed between law school courseloads and the passage rate of students ranked in the first, second or fourth quarters of their law school class, while only a weak relationship existed for students who ranked in the third quarter. Overall, Rush writes, “students in the upper two quartiles passed the exam at an extremely high rate and those in the fourth quartile failed at a high rate, regardless of which classes they took in law school.” The researchers repeated the test in 2007 using data from the Hofstra University School of Law, with identical results (which do not appear in the study)."



I think you might be misinterpreting the purpose, and thus the validly for your argument, of this study. The fact that a lower pass rate was found for 4th quartile was in passing, not the focus of the study. The focus of the study was whether or not taking “bar courses” in law school has any effect on bar passage rates. Therefore, the data on 4th quarter passage rates in general is suspect for the point you’re tying to make. This is because, as it was not the focus of the study, it’s not likely other factors were considered in making the conclusion. For example, my guess would be that a number of students in the 4th quartile by end of 3L are there because they have lost interest in the law, but did not want to walk away from law school/debt. It’s likely folks that really don’t want to practice law don’t put as much effort into preparing for the bar as those that do (regardless of GPA). If the study was looking at simple bar passage rates as they compare to GPA these and other issues would need to be accounted for, for the study to be a good measure. However, as I said, that was not what was being studied here.

My school has done similar studies with the same results, no bearing on bar passage to bar courses taken in law school (i.e. Those that took primarily Wills, Trusts, Estates and other bar tested courses in law school did not do any better than those that took primarily (or even exclusively at my school) courses that were not tested on the bar. I’m not necessarily discounting the idea that lower GPA means lower bar passage rate, but I think a study focused on that would have to factor in other variables than this study did for it to be the kind of measure you are trying to use it for.

Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: pickle on July 04, 2008, 12:50:32 PM
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/09/24/the-science-of-passing-the-bar-exam-does-first-year-torts-really-matter/

"To test this theory, Rush and Matsuo documented every student’s courseload for five different graduating classes at the St. Louis Law School, analyzing the number of bar topic courses taken against bar passage rates the first time the students sat for the exam. Their results were unequivocal: no relationship existed between law school courseloads and the passage rate of students ranked in the first, second or fourth quarters of their law school class, while only a weak relationship existed for students who ranked in the third quarter. Overall, Rush writes, “students in the upper two quartiles passed the exam at an extremely high rate and those in the fourth quartile failed at a high rate, regardless of which classes they took in law school.” The researchers repeated the test in 2007 using data from the Hofstra University School of Law, with identical results (which do not appear in the study)."



I think you might be misinterpreting the purpose, and thus the validly for your argument, of this study. The fact that a lower pass rate was found for 4th quartile was in passing, not the focus of the study. The focus of the study was whether or not taking “bar courses” in law school has any effect on bar passage rates. Therefore, the data on 4th quarter passage rates in general is suspect for the point you’re tying to make. This is because, as it was not the focus of the study, it’s not likely other factors were considered in making the conclusion. For example, my guess would be that a number of students in the 4th quartile by end of 3L are there because they have lost interest in the law, but did not want to walk away from law school/debt. It’s likely folks that really don’t want to practice law don’t put as much effort into preparing for the bar as those that do (regardless of GPA). If the study was looking at simple bar passage rates as they compare to GPA these and other issues would need to be accounted for, for the study to be a good measure. However, as I said, that was not what was being studied here.

My school has done similar studies with the same results, no bearing on bar passage to bar courses taken in law school (i.e. Those that took primarily Wills, Trusts, Estates and other bar tested courses in law school did not do any better than those that took primarily (or even exclusively at my school) courses that were not tested on the bar. I’m not necessarily discounting the idea that lower GPA means lower bar passage rate, but I think a study focused on that would have to factor in other variables than this study did for it to be the kind of measure you are trying to use it for.



I quoted the purpose of the study.  There is no slight of hand here.  It's not my study; discount it, distinguish it, scrutinize the missing variables.  It's pretty common knowledge that LS performance has a high correlation to bar passage (should OP doubt this he should ask the dean directly why the school dismisses low graded students).  One of the conclusions of the study is relevant and on point.  OP should not go back to JMLS because he will likely not pass the bar, and JMLS knew this and dismissed him. 
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: boombasticlady on July 04, 2008, 01:45:10 PM
Nachas,
I am sorry that you got academically dismissed and my heart goes out to you. I wanted to know if you took any practice exams prior to the actual test. You mention that you didnt test well.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: nachas on July 04, 2008, 03:08:12 PM
nachas,

How do you think you're going to pass the bar exam if you are readmitted to JMSL?

You obviously can't do as well on law school exams as the vast majority of students at a T4 law school, so what makes you think you'll be able to pass the bar exam, where you will be competing with all those T4 students who did better than you on your exams as well as students from (much) better law schools?

This should be a serious consideration before you expend any more time/money on law school.

Well, first of all the bar exam isn't competitive against other students.  You are taking a test to pass or fail.  I passed all of my classes and have failed none.
Additionally, I believe that if I treat the learning disability properly, I won't have issues with low grades.  As I said before, the shock of all this comes from the fact that I know the material.  I taught some of it to other students who had problems and those around me believe me to be knowledgable - and expert in the courses I took.  This semester was rough, but I don't think that the problem was that I didn't learn the material.  My problem was how my brain handled the testing pressure and time constraints.
People can change, adapt, and learn.  To say that because I took 3 tests poorly, that I am incapable of doing as well as my peers is a little presumptive.

Your performance on your law school exams this year shows that your aptitude for taking law school exams is at the lowest possible level among law school students - you were academically dismissed from (i.e., failed out of) a fourth tier law school. Such a low aptitude will very likely not allow you to pass the bar exam (no matter how smart you are aside from law school exams), which is an exam with all (if not more) of the time constraints and pressure of law school exams.

Knowing the material and being able to pass exams are two entirely different things (and, contrary to your assertion, you clearly failed some of your exams - whether it's called a B, a D, or a Z, if the grade is below the minimum required not to fail out of law school, it's a failing grade). Yes, you may know the material, and yes your law professors may think you could be a great lawyer, but unless you can show some aptitude for taking law school exams, which at this point seems clearly impossible, it is extremely unlikely that you will be able to pass the bar.

This may be a good opportunity to save the money you would have spent on two more years of law school and do something else - what would you have wanted to do as a lawyer, anyway? And would a degree from John Marshall (with a terrible GPA) have allowed you to do it? Realistically, no, it wouldn't have. See http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119040786780835602.html for starters - a law degree is not a magical ticket to wealth (or even a job), especially a law degree at the bottom of one's class from a T4.
Impossible?  There isn't anything I can do, like getting on medication for a learning disability and working with faculty and staff to bring my law school exam skills up?  That wouldn't help?
And I don't have to worry about going biglaw, public interest law, etc.  My father has a medium sized law firm (my brother is a partner as well) and there is a job waiting for me.  So graduating from law school at the bottom of my class wouldn't matter much anyway.  That said, you advice seems to revolve around two basic ideas (and feel free to correct me):
1)  Because I got 2 D's on 2 tests, which were graded based on the overall grade of the class, not the actual grade, I have displayed the impossibility of ever taking a successful law school exam and would therefore fail the bar exam.
and
2) Since I *might* graduate with a low class ranking, I will never have any job prospects.

It appears that number 1 doesn't take into effect the deep personal loss I suffered when my grandfather died as well as the learning disability that I thought I had beaten.
Impossible means: not capable of occurring or being accomplished or dealt with
Is that really what you think?  That there is nothing that I can do to fix the situation?  Somehow, I find this to be a little too final of a word to describe the situation, especially in light of several conversations I've had since with faculty and staff (including knowledge of the fact that the President of the board of trustees almost failed out of the school well before the policies that stand today were in place - he actually got an F his first semester).
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: nachas on July 04, 2008, 03:12:30 PM

  It's the curve and the way they write/enforce it. 
I only learne about this after we took the K midterm, about a month or so before finals, when someone asked the prof how the curve works.  Grades for any given one L class of D or F are awarded to no fewer than 10% and no more than 20% of the class.  Meaning in a class of 80 students, anywhere from 8-16 students get D's or F's.  Academic dismissal is set at 1.75, meaning that if you get more than one D, you are basically screwed.

This is the only comment I've seen you make so far that I think is unwarranted. I am in the process of transferring out of JMLS, and the curve wasn't/shouldn't have been a surprise. If you did any research going into school, you should have known 1L is curved there. The curve is in the Student Handbook, and was discussed at Orientation. I don't think there is any excuse for not knowing what the grading policy is going in. That said, it sucks you were dismissed, and I can certainly understand your general frustration.

Thanks for the kindness.
They didn't tell us during orientation that they anticipate to lose 10-20% of their incoming class to academic dismissal, though I understand how a curve works.
My problem isn't with the curve itself, but rather how the curve is interpreted and applied.  One prof said "we don't have to flunk people, but at least 10% of you have to get a D or below."
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: nachas on July 04, 2008, 03:19:56 PM
Nachas,
I am sorry that you got academically dismissed and my heart goes out to you. I wanted to know if you took any practice exams prior to the actual test. You mention that you didnt test well.

I searched for practice exams, but all profs test differently and none of them have old exams available.
We mostly used law in a flash, E&E, and Q&A books for test review, along with emmanuels, and I did really well - often explaining why I answered the way I did to my study buddies who got the questions wrong and didn't understand the material.
I took an old practice exam for Contracts and scored 90%, but it wasn't at school, wasn't under the stress of a room full of law school students, and I didn't take the test thinking that it was representative of my entire grade in class.  I just took the test under a 2 and a half hour time contraint.
The LD hit hard the day of the exams, my friends were all freaking out, and I was very nervous (and thought about my grandfather nonstop during the tests).
Note to pickle:
I'm still not buying the correlation between first semester grades and Bar exam scores either.  I know dozens of lawyers, some who passed the bar first time, and some who passed it second go around.  Some straight A law students passed first time and some had to retake, which is the same for people who barely squeaked by.
Then there's the old adage:
The A students become professors, the B students become judges and the C students make all the money
:-)
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: pickle on July 04, 2008, 05:45:38 PM
Nachas,
I am sorry that you got academically dismissed and my heart goes out to you. I wanted to know if you took any practice exams prior to the actual test. You mention that you didnt test well.

I searched for practice exams, but all profs test differently and none of them have old exams available.
We mostly used law in a flash, E&E, and Q&A books for test review, along with emmanuels, and I did really well - often explaining why I answered the way I did to my study buddies who got the questions wrong and didn't understand the material.
I took an old practice exam for Contracts and scored 90%, but it wasn't at school, wasn't under the stress of a room full of law school students, and I didn't take the test thinking that it was representative of my entire grade in class.  I just took the test under a 2 and a half hour time contraint.
The LD hit hard the day of the exams, my friends were all freaking out, and I was very nervous (and thought about my grandfather nonstop during the tests).
Note to pickle:
I'm still not buying the correlation between first semester grades and Bar exam scores either.  I know dozens of lawyers, some who passed the bar first time, and some who passed it second go around.  Some straight A law students passed first time and some had to retake, which is the same for people who barely squeaked by.
Then there's the old adage:
The A students become professors, the B students become judges and the C students make all the money
:-)


doods, do watcha like.

I don't think you will be admitted, graduate, pass the bar.  But hey, use me as inspiration.  Good luck Nachas!  I mean it.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: classic695 on July 04, 2008, 06:14:01 PM
I agree with pickle. If for some reason John Marshall lets you back into school, I seriously doubt you'll be able to do any better, graduate with a decent GPA, or pass the bar. But by all means, waste money trying.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: big - fat - box on July 04, 2008, 08:53:16 PM
My advice to the OP:

1. Do not go back to JMLS. You obviously have a lot of animosity toward the school (some of it justified) that by itself is going to make it extremely hard for you to succeed there. Also, do not go back to law school if your only option is a low ranked school that has a harsh curve and flunks people out - you'll find the atmosphere is similar to that at JMLS.

2. Work out whatever personal and medical issues you need to.

3. Get a job and save some money.

4. If 2 years later you still want to be a lawyer, reapply to law school and start from scratch. Get your LSAT score up and try to squeak your way into a school with a higher curve and lower attrition rate.

If you do this, make sure you learn how to take law school exams. Here is a tip from someone who did well first year (top 10%) at a lower ranked school - your profs are mostly looking for a black letter law analysis of the fact pattern - not regurgitation of info like you did in undergrad. Do the LEEWS program before your classes get started and download as many practice exams as you can for first year subjects, even if they're from other schools. That's what I did.

The E&Es are great but they are not a substitute for practice exams. Hardly any of my first year profs had practice exams on file either. You need to practice them (any exams you can find - look for exams from schools of roughly the same rank school you are at) until you get good at taking them under timed conditions (get a digital silent timer). If you have one or two particularly receptive profs, you can ask them to critique your practice exam - even if they didn't write the exam. One more thing: drop the study groups - get ONE study partner who is on the same page with you and compare practice exams after you write them seperately - cramming verbally with a group of people and doing flash cards, etc. is a complete waste of time and will not lead to good exam scores.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: planet rugby on July 04, 2008, 09:14:15 PM
Nachas, what type of law do you plan to practice?

and best of luck

Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: $Bill on July 04, 2008, 09:28:31 PM
For whats its worth, some rather grim commentary on this thread

http://www.jdunderground.com/thread.php?threadId=17291
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on July 04, 2008, 10:51:14 PM
For whats its worth, some rather grim commentary on this thread

http://www.jdunderground.com/thread.php?threadId=17291
sucks
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: nachas on July 05, 2008, 01:10:23 AM
Nachas,
I am sorry that you got academically dismissed and my heart goes out to you. I wanted to know if you took any practice exams prior to the actual test. You mention that you didnt test well.

I searched for practice exams, but all profs test differently and none of them have old exams available.
We mostly used law in a flash, E&E, and Q&A books for test review, along with emmanuels, and I did really well - often explaining why I answered the way I did to my study buddies who got the questions wrong and didn't understand the material.
I took an old practice exam for Contracts and scored 90%, but it wasn't at school, wasn't under the stress of a room full of law school students, and I didn't take the test thinking that it was representative of my entire grade in class.  I just took the test under a 2 and a half hour time contraint.
The LD hit hard the day of the exams, my friends were all freaking out, and I was very nervous (and thought about my grandfather nonstop during the tests).
Note to pickle:
I'm still not buying the correlation between first semester grades and Bar exam scores either.  I know dozens of lawyers, some who passed the bar first time, and some who passed it second go around.  Some straight A law students passed first time and some had to retake, which is the same for people who barely squeaked by.
Then there's the old adage:
The A students become professors, the B students become judges and the C students make all the money
:-)


doods, do watcha like.

I don't think you will be admitted, graduate, pass the bar.  But hey, use me as inspiration.  Good luck Nachas!  I mean it.

Thanks Pickle.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: nachas on July 05, 2008, 01:12:47 AM
Nachas, what type of law do you plan to practice?

and best of luck



Criminal.
and thanks.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: nachas on July 05, 2008, 01:17:32 AM
For whats its worth, some rather grim commentary on this thread

http://www.jdunderground.com/thread.php?threadId=17291

Ouch.
Anonymity and the like.
It's probably better that I don't respond to those little nuggets, lest I further expose my own stupidity.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: Thistle on July 05, 2008, 06:40:52 AM
For whats its worth, some rather grim commentary on this thread

http://www.jdunderground.com/thread.php?threadId=17291

Ouch.
Anonymity and the like.
It's probably better that I don't respond to those little nuggets, lest I further expose my own stupidity.


more idiots that are somehow "qualified" to comment on medical diagnoses.  "there's no such thing as adhd!"  why not?  "er, because i don't believe in it!  and neither does tom cruise!  thats good enough for me!"

these will be the same lawyers, should they pass the bar, screaming about how their clients have read a statute and now think they understand it better than an attorney does, and how annoying that is.  pot=kettle  :P
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: nealric on July 05, 2008, 08:37:19 AM
Quote
The A students become professors, the B students become judges and the C students make all the money

That one only applies at Harvard (since Yale and Standford don't have traditional grades)
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: classic695 on July 05, 2008, 11:33:41 AM
nachas = jeffislouie. Are you still excited about starting at JMSL now that you've failed out?
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: almostlegal on July 05, 2008, 01:41:45 PM
My advice to the OP:

1. Do not go back to JMLS. You obviously have a lot of animosity toward the school (some of it justified) that by itself is going to make it extremely hard for you to succeed there. Also, do not go back to law school if your only option is a low ranked school that has a harsh curve and flunks people out - you'll find the atmosphere is similar to that at JMLS.

2. Work out whatever personal and medical issues you need to.

3. Get a job and save some money.

4. If 2 years later you still want to be a lawyer, reapply to law school and start from scratch. Get your LSAT score up and try to squeak your way into a school with a higher curve and lower attrition rate.

If you do this, make sure you learn how to take law school exams. Here is a tip from someone who did well first year (top 10%) at a lower ranked school - your profs are mostly looking for a black letter law analysis of the fact pattern - not regurgitation of info like you did in undergrad. Do the LEEWS program before your classes get started and download as many practice exams as you can for first year subjects, even if they're from other schools. That's what I did.

The E&Es are great but they are not a substitute for practice exams. Hardly any of my first year profs had practice exams on file either. You need to practice them (any exams you can find - look for exams from schools of roughly the same rank school you are at) until you get good at taking them under timed conditions (get a digital silent timer). If you have one or two particularly receptive profs, you can ask them to critique your practice exam - even if they didn't write the exam. One more thing: drop the study groups - get ONE study partner who is on the same page with you and compare practice exams after you write them seperately - cramming verbally with a group of people and doing flash cards, etc. is a complete waste of time and will not lead to good exam scores.

OP, it sucks that you were academically dismissed from law school.  I don't know about you, but prior to exams, I (and a few other students I know) made lists of alternate careers in case I (or we) failed out.  Nobody wants to see their law career end so quickly. 

That said, I agree with everything big - fat - box said here.

The one thing that was pounded into my head before starting law school that really applies here is that in-class performance does not correlate with good grades.  This is actually because you're being asked about two different things.  In class, the teacher wants to know what you've read; on an exam, the teacher wants to see you apply what you've learned.

OP, best wishes in whatever you choose to do.  There are a few blogs out there dealing with failing out of law school and later returning.  Hit google and you may find some shared experiences/advice from others in a similar situation.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: jeffislouie on July 05, 2008, 02:34:04 PM
nachas = jeffislouie. Are you still excited about starting at JMSL now that you've failed out?

Hilarious.  And false.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: classic695 on July 05, 2008, 03:55:35 PM
nachas = jeffislouie. Are you still excited about starting at JMSL now that you've failed out?

Hilarious.  And false.

Your posts under the two names are too similar, and easily gave you away.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: nealric on July 06, 2008, 01:54:21 PM
Quote
Piss off a liberal - ask them for proof....

I would like to see some proof of that  ;)
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: dsetterl on July 06, 2008, 02:10:17 PM

My property professor straight up told me that had I taken this same test and gotten the same score a semester earlier, I'd be looking at a C/C+ instead of a D.


jeffislouie:
 "For example, on one final, I got a C+.  When I spoke to the prof, he told me that the same score in his class the previous semester was a B."


Do you guys know each other or are in the same section?
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: classic695 on July 06, 2008, 06:25:07 PM
They're the same person.


My property professor straight up told me that had I taken this same test and gotten the same score a semester earlier, I'd be looking at a C/C+ instead of a D.


jeffislouie:
 "For example, on one final, I got a C+.  When I spoke to the prof, he told me that the same score in his class the previous semester was a B."


Do you guys know each other or are in the same section?
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: nachas on July 09, 2008, 03:07:21 PM

My property professor straight up told me that had I taken this same test and gotten the same score a semester earlier, I'd be looking at a C/C+ instead of a D.


jeffislouie:
 "For example, on one final, I got a C+.  When I spoke to the prof, he told me that the same score in his class the previous semester was a B."


Do you guys know each other or are in the same section?

I actually know Jeff.  We didn't study together, but I have spoken to him before.  We spoke the other day about my issue and he also shared his experiences with me.  When I brought up LSD, he told me his username and we laughed.  It's interesting when an anonymous person becomes not so anonymous...
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: constable80 on June 30, 2010, 04:50:07 PM
Just for the record, JMLS had an incoming class of 359 in 2010 and at the end of the year it was 341.  That is only 5% lost.  Don't believe everything you read on these message boards.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: cooleylawstudent on June 30, 2010, 08:54:47 PM
They tend to get their info from the ABA, you may want to try complaining to them.

Just for the record, JMLS had an incoming class of 359 in 2010 and at the end of the year it was 341.  That is only 5% lost.  Don't believe everything you read on these message boards.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: constable80 on July 01, 2010, 06:24:39 AM
Not complaining, just giving actual facts and letting people know that what everyone is saying about the amount of people dropped from Marshall is wrong.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: MEMEMEME on July 01, 2010, 06:48:14 AM
Ever considered trying medical withdrawal or something similar because of the death in your family? Can't that be used as a viable excuse?
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: cooleylawstudent on July 01, 2010, 10:30:19 AM
you'd kill your own family to avoid a day of school, DEAR GOD!!!!!! >:(

Ever considered trying medical withdrawal or something similar because of the death in your family? Can't that be used as a viable excuse?
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: Thistle on July 01, 2010, 04:41:01 PM
maybe for secured transactions; while i would have only maimed them to miss, say, administrative law



you'd kill your own family to avoid a day of school, DEAR GOD!!!!!! >:(

Ever considered trying medical withdrawal or something similar because of the death in your family? Can't that be used as a viable excuse?
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: cooleylawstudent on July 01, 2010, 05:36:03 PM
 :-X

maybe for secured transactions; while i would have only maimed them to miss, say, administrative law



you'd kill your own family to avoid a day of school, DEAR GOD!!!!!! >:(

Ever considered trying medical withdrawal or something similar because of the death in your family? Can't that be used as a viable excuse?
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: MEMEMEME on July 03, 2010, 04:21:11 AM
you'd kill your own family to avoid a day of school, DEAR GOD!!!!!! >:(

Ever considered trying medical withdrawal or something similar because of the death in your family? Can't that be used as a viable excuse?

Shut the @#!* up. Not cute. When people are close to people, they grieve and it is a medical condition. Go hump your blow-up doll you slimy worm
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: cooleylawstudent on July 03, 2010, 09:53:46 PM
what medical condition are you talking about psycho?

you'd kill your own family to avoid a day of school, DEAR GOD!!!!!! >:(

Ever considered trying medical withdrawal or something similar because of the death in your family? Can't that be used as a viable excuse?

Shut the @#!* up. Not cute. When people are close to people, they grieve and it is a medical condition. Go hump your blow-up doll you slimy worm
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: MEMEMEME on July 04, 2010, 03:46:35 AM
It's called bereavement and clinical depression, moron. Didn't I tell you to shut your damn mouth? I am not getting into an analytical discussion about this. Go see someone die who you love and then get back to me. In the meantime, shut the f*ck up.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: cooleylawstudent on July 04, 2010, 10:45:18 AM
yep your psycho. Go back a few posts  and see what I was responding to on someone elses posts "I'd kill for that" type stuff. Bittch at them and then tell your dr to up your scripts.

It's called bereavement and clinical depression, moron. Didn't I tell you to shut your damn mouth? I am not getting into an analytical discussion about this. Go see someone die who you love and then get back to me. In the meantime, shut the f*ck up.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: MEMEMEME on July 04, 2010, 01:37:13 PM
I suppose at least I am lucid enough to know that your grammar is *&^% and you're trying to be a lawyer. I probably am a bit psycho at the moment anyway. Who cares. Anyway, go away troll. Don't respond to anything else I post ever unless you want to give me your name and address afterwards. I will do the same for you.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: cooleylawstudent on July 04, 2010, 01:55:00 PM
Aw yes, the same old retard comment of "hey that thing that they dont grade on in lawschool or the bar, yeah you dont seem to care about doing that to perfection on a board that wouldnt matter even if it did matter(which it dosnt anways)so yeah....... :P"
Plus, as a self admitted psychwarder THAT will have a MUCH larger impact on a career. A) "character and fitness" focus on the second word the most. B) court room "NO, GO AWAY, I'll cut myself....... :'( "

Enjoy your holiday.

I suppose at least I am lucid enough to know that your grammar is bunnies and you're trying to be a lawyer. I probably am a bit psycho at the moment anyway. Who cares. Anyway, go away troll. Don't respond to anything else I post ever unless you want to give me your name and address afterwards. I will do the same for you.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: MEMEMEME on July 04, 2010, 02:21:56 PM
I highly doubt anyone will hold it against me years from now when I apply for the bar that I was grieving once that my mother was dying of cancer. And a judge will laugh at your grammar and spelling so please hire a proofreader.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: Cicero on July 04, 2010, 02:22:32 PM
You keep saying in your posts that spelling and grammar don't matter because those things aren't graded on LS exams or on the bar, but they will matter when you're done with school and are out in the real world. Some judges get very upset by spelling and grammar mistakes. These mistakes can be detrimental to your client's case and hurt your reputation as an attorney (and cost you money in court fees, etc.). It's a good idea to practice good spelling and grammar now, so that it will be automatic when you're out of school.

Some examples of what can happen:
http://www.legalassistanttoday.com/issue_archive/columns/LglWrtng_ma07.htm
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: cooleylawstudent on July 04, 2010, 03:40:38 PM
So, your point is that the thing that I keep saying is accurate? Thankyou for that confirmation of what I already knew. As for that other BS, people here say a shitload of things that I doubt they'd say in a court room, same goes for in class. Get over it. yooze stooped.  :-X


You keep saying in your posts that spelling and grammar don't matter because those things aren't graded on LS exams or on the bar, but they will matter when you're done with school and are out in the real world. Some judges get very upset by spelling and grammar mistakes. These mistakes can be detrimental to your client's case and hurt your reputation as an attorney (and cost you money in court fees, etc.). It's a good idea to practice good spelling and grammar now, so that it will be automatic when you're out of school.

Some examples of what can happen:
http://www.legalassistanttoday.com/issue_archive/columns/LglWrtng_ma07.htm
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: MEMEMEME on July 04, 2010, 03:58:22 PM
Doesn't make it right.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: cooleylawstudent on July 04, 2010, 04:01:21 PM
sure as hell makes it not wrong.

Doesn't make it right.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: Cicero on July 04, 2010, 04:21:53 PM
It wasn't an attack on you, just an explanation of why you should get in the habit of using correct spelling and grammar. The more you allow these bad habits to continue on the forum and elsewhere, as I expect these are common mistakes for you in general, the more the bad habits will ingrain themselves and the harder they will be to stop.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: MEMEMEME on July 04, 2010, 04:48:04 PM
Not sure what you were referring to exactly but if you think it is not wrong to pick on someone who is grieving, etc. just because it is the Internet, then I guess you will find out what it is like someday. Call me psycho all you want. It doesn't matter. I bet I am a hell of a lot stronger than you and please don't make a reference to your military experience. We all know. You have mentioned it again and again. And honestly if you think it has given you some sort of integrity and you think it is right to badger me when obviously I am not fully "with it" at the moment because of the above-referenced matter, you are the one who might fail fitness and CHARACTER.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: cooleylawstudent on July 04, 2010, 05:22:54 PM
fair enough. I won't lie and say that I'll live by it, but I see what you mean when you say it like that.

It wasn't an attack on you, just an explanation of why you should get in the habit of using correct spelling and grammar. The more you allow these bad habits to continue on the forum and elsewhere, as I expect these are common mistakes for you in general, the more the bad habits will ingrain themselves and the harder they will be to stop.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: cooleylawstudent on July 04, 2010, 05:24:49 PM
hey genius, you called me out. I am only saying that a psycho would do that. 1) YOU STARTED THIS 2) YOU KEEP IT GOING
let it go or dont, but starting a fire and then bitching when you get burned is just stupid.

Not sure what you were referring to exactly but if you think it is not wrong to pick on someone who is grieving, etc. just because it is the Internet, then I guess you will find out what it is like someday. Call me psycho all you want. It doesn't matter. I bet I am a hell of a lot stronger than you and please don't make a reference to your military experience. We all know. You have mentioned it again and again. And honestly if you think it has given you some sort of integrity and you think it is right to badger me when obviously I am not fully "with it" at the moment because of the above-referenced matter, you are the one who might fail fitness and CHARACTER.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: cooleylawstudent on July 04, 2010, 05:33:42 PM
Hey "MEME" (what a selfcentered name) I think THIS is the post that started your bittching campain, you'll noticed that I didn't even write it. I get it that you are in the middle of a mental meltdown right now but try to read before you respond. If you weren't so self centered and worried about only yourself you might A) learn to read  & B) Think(crazy thought huh) before you post. Pretty much everyone has watched people die, including those close to them. Its part of the human condition.
C) Where on this section did I mention the military? (and yes it does require a lot more than you have to do it) but where did I mention it?

maybe for secured transactions; while i would have only maimed them to miss, say, administrative law



you'd kill your own family to avoid a day of school, DEAR GOD!!!!!! >:(

Ever considered trying medical withdrawal or something similar because of the death in your family? Can't that be used as a viable excuse?
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: MEMEMEME on July 04, 2010, 05:33:54 PM
I asked you to let it go and you kept it going. Have you ever lost anyone you really really loved and watched them suffer? Don't blame me for not being rational against you considering. Enough of this, ok? Done. Please don't respond to any more of my posts. Thank you.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: MEMEMEME on July 04, 2010, 05:35:24 PM
The name is supposed to be ironic. It is a comment on society. Not my personal opinion of myself.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: cooleylawstudent on July 04, 2010, 05:37:56 PM
Clearly you didnt read my last responce. Here is a piece of common sense(everyone dies so we ALL go through it, if you weren't so self centered you'd look around and realise that, THAT is where the right to speak from others on it comes from)
Plus, if you want a fire to stop burning, stop tossing gasoline on it. You bittch at me, I'll bittch back.
That being said, if you are serious about calling a truce on it then ok, if you stop the bittch attack so will I, cool?

I asked you to let it go and you kept it going. Have you ever lost anyone you really really loved and watched them suffer? Don't blame me for not being rational against you considering. Enough of this, ok? Done. Please don't respond to any more of my posts. Thank you.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: cooleylawstudent on July 04, 2010, 05:38:26 PM
ok.

The name is supposed to be ironic. It is a comment on society. Not my personal opinion of myself.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: Julie Fern on July 08, 2010, 10:24:41 AM
oh my.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: bigs5068 on July 08, 2010, 01:17:39 PM
I just want to respond to this it sounds like a really heart breaking story, but I don't think any school has a mandatory cut. I know for a fact my tier 4 does not have a mandatory cut, because I read the handbook and there are no mandatory D's and it would just be stupid to dismiss students that are paying them. The reality is if you got a 1.7 GPA on exams that focus on only class at a time you probably are not going to pass the bar where 20 or subjects are tested simultaneously and they have to let you go.

It would be wrong to take your money for 2 1/2 more years if it seems apparent you can't pass the bar. I realize the death of your grandfather etc is horrible and they probably should have made some kind of exception, because that is an extenuating circumstance. Their behavior of calling the OP a security risk etc sounds excessive. At the end of the day though if you are a normal student and get a 1.7 it would just be wrong to keep you in school. Just like it would be a wrong for a personal trainer to tell a 5'9 slow white kid to pay him 300 a week to help him to get to the NBA it is not going to happen. Or even the famous dancing lessons case in contracts, where the guy was charging the 70 year old woman for dance lessons telling her she would be famous. It would really be wrong to keep you for 3 year more years and take 100k of your money knowing full well that you probably will not pass the bar.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: barond on July 12, 2010, 10:05:46 PM
Just curious how Golden Gate attrition is compared to my Tier 4 .  We also do not have a mandatory cut, but the 2.7 curve yields a predictable bell curve wherefore the bottom of the class is swept out.  We started with 236 in the fall.  Only 213 were around to take the Term 2 exams.  13 of the 213 appear to be below the required 2.0 on the class ranks. This is actually much lower than recent years- it is usually 20 students.

So that leaves 200.  Take away the expected 20 to 30 transfers (not me) and you are left with approximately 175 students and a 26% attrition rate. Assuming arguendo that this constitutes one of the highest attrition rates in the country ( i think it is top 10) it is still not unreasonable because many of these numbers were not arising out of academic dismissals.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: bigs5068 on July 12, 2010, 10:29:25 PM
Nobody failed out first semester that I know about. You would need to get a 1.5 to get kicked out first semester and that would be hard to do.  I only really know one person that got kicked out academically and it wasn't that surprising the person almost never read any of the cases.  There was 273 in the first round of rankings 236 now and I know some people get kicked out academically, but I don't know who they were except for the one person.

I assume there will be a few transfers and it will end up being around the general 20% rate.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: nachas on December 31, 2010, 03:16:41 PM
Nachas,
I am sorry that you got academically dismissed and my heart goes out to you. I wanted to know if you took any practice exams prior to the actual test. You mention that you didnt test well.

I searched for practice exams, but all profs test differently and none of them have old exams available.
We mostly used law in a flash, E&E, and Q&A books for test review, along with emmanuels, and I did really well - often explaining why I answered the way I did to my study buddies who got the questions wrong and didn't understand the material.
I took an old practice exam for Contracts and scored 90%, but it wasn't at school, wasn't under the stress of a room full of law school students, and I didn't take the test thinking that it was representative of my entire grade in class.  I just took the test under a 2 and a half hour time contraint.
The LD hit hard the day of the exams, my friends were all freaking out, and I was very nervous (and thought about my grandfather nonstop during the tests).
Note to pickle:
I'm still not buying the correlation between first semester grades and Bar exam scores either.  I know dozens of lawyers, some who passed the bar first time, and some who passed it second go around.  Some straight A law students passed first time and some had to retake, which is the same for people who barely squeaked by.
Then there's the old adage:
The A students become professors, the B students become judges and the C students make all the money
:-)


doods, do watcha like.

I don't think you will be admitted, graduate, pass the bar.  But hey, use me as inspiration.  Good luck Nachas!  I mean it.

I usually hate it when people revive old threads, but it appears that I have a rare opportunity to prove that most of the people with their insane theories and nasty attitudes were and will continue to be dead wrong.
I was readmitted after one year.  During that year, I clerked/paralegal-ed at a medium sized firm, got with my doc, got on meds, and started working on coping mechanisms.
Now that I am halfway through school, I am proud to report (mostly to the a-holes who said it couldn't be done, that ADHD doesn't exist, and that I am, in general, a failure who should seek another career) that I am on the dean's list - top 25%.
It turns out, ADHD is so real that the school hired a disability coordinator to assist students (like me) who have LD's that hurt their performance.  I've studied hard, worked hard, and dedicated myself and proved every idiot on this board who said it was impossible wrong.  I didn't do it to prove you wrong.  I didn't do it to prove me right.  I did it because I love the law and want to be a lawyer.
So, to those of you hiding in the shadows, afraid that having ADHD will prevent you from accomplishing your dreams, learn to ignore the ignorant and spiteful jerks who never miss an opportunity to kick someone when they are down.
To those of you who made fun of me for being affected by the loss of my grandfather, I feel sorry for you.  If you don't get affected by a massive loss like that, the loss of your hero, a holocaust survivor who came to this country and was told daily that he would fail, a man who learned english, started a business, and retired not just a millionaire, but a community leader, you are dead inside.  Good lawyers can't afford to be dead inside.    If you suffer a personal loss, my advice is to speak to your professors and the school administration about it.  You might be surprised at how far they will go to make it easier on you.
As I look forward to finishing the remainder of law school (the second half) and preparing for the bar, I take with me the great personal satisfaction of knowing that my struggle, while painful and embarrassing to go through, simply made me better.
To those of you who use these boards to ridicule people, make them feel worse, and pick on people who need help - don't worry, you will one day be judged for your behavior.  And you will, of course, lose many cases to people just like me - people who struggled and fought on when you would quit.  See, it says more about who you are than who I am when the best advice you could come up with was to quit, to give up, to find something else.  People like me persevere.  People like you quit when the going gets tough.
A few points I wanted to clear up:
JMLS does have a mandatory cut.  They are required to academically dismiss between 10 and 15% of the yearly entering class.  The numbers don't lie and are too consistent to believe that they don't.  Every year, 10-15% are academically dismissed.
Bar exam statistics at my school show that the highest pass rate doesn't come from the students who, after the first year, got all A's or B's.  Statistically speaking, people who had a B-/C+ average passed at the highest rate.  Furthermore, if it wasn't for the mandatory curve, designed to eliminate 10-15% of students, there would be no reason for me to have been academically dismissed.  I've met with the prof's who gave me the D's since coming back.  Every one of them told me that I got screwed by the system, that they wished they could change it, and that they've lobbied for change but have been shut down.  For the record, the classes I got D's in?  I got B+'s in all of them.
ADHD is a real disorder.  It affects millions of people.  It has seen incredible breakthroughs in the last few years in terms of recognition, cognitive development, and medical treatment.  I went for a full evaluation with a doctor who specializes in LD's and he told me, unequivocally, that I was a fairly typical case.  He told me that many people come to him, having done well in their careers and well in undergrad, who find they have trouble in law school, med school, and grad school.
Sure, the bar is tough.  I'm not afraid of it anymore though because I've been learning so much better now. 
When people take shots at others who do poorly, go through difficulties that hurt their performance, and run into trouble, they expose more about themselves than they do about the person they took shots at.  I am not stupid.  I am not lazy.  I am not an underachiever.  I suffer from a medical condition recognized by the medical profession, the federal government, state government, and every educational system in the country.  Making fun of someone with ADHD is exactly like making fun of someone with diabetes, MS, or any other medical condition they have no control over.  Like a diabetic, I can control my condition with medication.  The result isn't that I have an advantage over you, but rather that I am equalized to you.  Furthermore, research has now determined that in certain circumstances, people with ADHD often have a distinct advantage over people without it.
Don't be embarrassed.  Don't be afraid.  And never give up on something you care about.  If you care enough, you can and will overcome any obstacle.
Remember, people who never fail never really win. 
"“There are no secrets to success. It is the result of preparation, hard work, and learning from failure.” - Colin Powell
"“Failure is a detour, not a dead-end street.” - Zig Ziglar
“Failures are finger posts on the road to achievement.” - C.S. Lewis
“Failure is the tuition you pay for success.” - Walter Brunell
“Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.” - Chinese proverb
"Obstacles don't have to stop you. If you run into a wall, don't turn around and give up. Figure out how to climb it, go through it, or work around it. " - Michael Jordan
 
Here is a short list of successful people with ADHD:
Albert Einstein
Thomas Edison
Nelson Rockefeller
Galileo
Louis Pasteur
Alexander Graham Bell
John F. Kennedy
Woodrow Wilson

Here's an ABA article about lawyers with ADHD, printed well before this discussion began (oddly contradicting every moron who claimed it didn't exist and that people with ADHD can't be good lawyers): http://www.abanet.org/genpractice/magazine/2006/oct-nov/adhd.html

Cranks, a-holes, trolls, and jerks love to sit behind their computers telling other people they've never met how stupid they are.  These same people wouldn't dare say the same things to actual people standing in front of them.  That's why they do it - they have no fear that what they say has repercussions.  I'd love for even one of you to say it to my face, but you wouldn't because you are weak and afraid.
If you have suffered with academic difficulties and suspect you may have ADHD, don't self-diagnose.  Go see a professional.
If you have been academically dismissed, of course reevaluate and think about whether the law is for you.  If you decide it is, go for it.  The idiots who tell you not to or guarantee you will fail?  They don't know anything.  They only think they do.  They said I wouldn't be readmitted, yet I was.  They said I would just fail out again, yet I didn't.  They said I couldn't be successful, yet I am.  Many of them will fail the bar exam their first go around.  It's okay.  They'll either follow their own advice and quit or they will realize that they need to try harder.  Personally, I hope they stick to it and try again.  Weak people quit when things get hard.  Strong people struggle then get back up and try again.
I wish you all success (even the jerks with no sensitivity, compassion, or actual knowledge).
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: bigs5068 on December 31, 2010, 04:48:53 PM
That's awesome good for you. I just have one comment and I that is I do not believe any school would require 15 percent of their class to fail out. School's are businesses and students are paying customers it would make no sense to require people to fail out. The first go around for you had a lot of struggles and it just didn't work out. I could see 10 to 20 percent of students having life get in their way or just not be prepared for law school. That happens a lot and is more likely the reason for attrition rather requiring people to fail out. Maybe I am wrong, but it makes no logical sense to fail out people that are capable of passing the bar and paying you 30k a year.  Anyways, good for you for getting back in and kicking ass.
Title: Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
Post by: nocreeper on January 22, 2012, 05:27:09 PM
Hey so sorry to hear about the dismissal.  JMLS is definitely a school that "weeds," I mean curves people out regardless of whether they have the ability to do so.  I was at Cooley and got dismissed after 4 terms and 45 credits.  I had 2 terms to bring it up.  started Summer 2007, last semester was summer 2008, got my dismissal letter in October 2008)  At the time I was in school I had severe insomnia, being abused/stalked by former boyfriend, he and the emotional problems I fully alienated me from any support network, and the school did not have anything they could do to help me and I do not know that they could have or were technically required to (and b/c of their recent lawsuit, I will decline to comment on the school's response to me seeking out their assistance)  However, I did average my 1st trimester and this might have saved me in reapplications

So I swallowed my pride, moved in with my parents, worked full time + and spent all of my free time studying for the LSAT and getting my head on straight.  Turns out I am Bipolar I (but in my essays I wrote I had generalized anxiety disorder - I was misdiagnosed but even still that is a much easier mood disorder to deal with).  I went to therapy and we spent most of the time figuring out how I can get organized and do well in an academic setting.  I was promoted from legal assistant, to legal secretary and file clerk to paralegal.  I became very well-versed in legal software and grew connections in the legal community (but did not use a single one of them for my recommendation letters, jsut used the old ones from my 1st round).

Anyways, I studied on and off for 10 months.  I quit my job in Novemember to get my essays in order, understand the reapplication process, call everyone on every admissions committe at any school with low attrition rates.  All I wanted was readmission and to get on with my life, but I wanted to be healthy even more than that.

To make a long story short, re-took the LSAT in February 2010, got a 162.  My original score was a 154.  my UGPA was a 2.8 (prestigious school though, got over 1300 on 2002 SAT)

Anyways, I wrote addendum on how this shows how I have gotten myself together and this essay worked most of the time.  Private schools were more receptive than public schools.  I got 2 full rides to T3 schools.  One school dean asked to make an appointment to meet face to face and that he would fly across the country (he was from a school in the Pacific time zone, I was eastern time zone) to talk to me about his school (I received a full-ride there). 

the first school I got into was a private school in the midwest in the top 100.  Thinking it was a fluke I called them to make sure they knew I was dismissed before.  The person that answered the phone said she personally revieewed my applicatioin, that I was reviewed by the entire admissions committee twice, and that she was excited to meet me in the fall, or at least to see me at an open house.  She also said she believes I definietely have the capacity to do well at the school and that the school will do anything they can to make sure I succeed. - so of course this is the school I went to.

I had a lot of people in my life frustrated with me.  They thought this was a pipe dream, that I was wasting my time and that I needed to give up.  F*ck them!  Never let anyone tell you know, and keep asking how.  Get creative, and make the most of what you have.  And if you don't get in, there are a lot of other jobs out there that pay better and have fewer hours. 

No matter what, I put everything into it and had the chance to get closure.  Do not ever let another's view of you affect how you feel about yourself or what you believe your potential is.

I really hope you get back in.  to anyone else that got dismissed, I hope that you get closure (but more than that  hope you get into a better school.

everyday I walk into school I feel like Cinderella and I am so grateful for the people who believed in me, or least pretended to.

GOOD LUCK!!! hope this helps!!!