Law School Discussion

Law Students => Job Search => Topic started by: rainyday on June 18, 2008, 05:56:35 PM

Title: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: rainyday on June 18, 2008, 05:56:35 PM
hi...

i'm a rising HLS 2L with a relatively crappy grade situation.  grades came back, and, with no fabulous excuses, my 1L gpa equates to about a 3.1 on a B+ curve.  nothing lower than a B, but obviously nothing much higher either. bummed b/c 2nd semester was pretty much the same (so no marked improvement to boast, either).

can anyone speak to what I can expect at fall OCI? be honest, but gentle. thanks.


Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: dashrashi on June 18, 2008, 06:09:53 PM
I'm told that the curve is actually somewhere between B and B+. This doesn't help-help, but it does make the situation less upsetting, I think.

Look, I talked to a rising 3L friend today who wasn't happy with his grades after 1L and went through the usual mishegoss over it, but then went and accidentally kicked ass his 2L year. Don't be demoralized. I am now more convinced than ever that HLS grades (specifically section 6's, which I think you're in too?) are completely f-ing arbitrary. And really, didn't you come to Harvard so you wouldn't have to care about your grades?
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: The Artist on June 18, 2008, 06:27:15 PM
hi...

i'm a rising HLS 2L with a relatively crappy grade situation.  grades came back, and, with no fabulous excuses, my 1L gpa equates to about a 3.1 on a B+ curve.  nothing lower than a B, but obviously nothing much higher either. bummed b/c 2nd semester was pretty much the same (so no marked improvement to boast, either).

can anyone speak to what I can expect at fall OCI? be honest, but gentle. thanks.




Seriously, go @#!* yourself.
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: goaliechica on June 18, 2008, 06:34:30 PM
hi...

i'm a rising HLS 2L with a relatively crappy grade situation.  grades came back, and, with no fabulous excuses, my 1L gpa equates to about a 3.1 on a B+ curve.  nothing lower than a B, but obviously nothing much higher either. bummed b/c 2nd semester was pretty much the same (so no marked improvement to boast, either).

can anyone speak to what I can expect at fall OCI? be honest, but gentle. thanks.




Seriously, go @#!* yourself.

Dude, don't be that guy. Almost everyone worries about their grades, no matter where they are. It doesn't mean they don't appreciate where they are, or don't recognize that they're still in a good position. This is  legitimate question, and one that's hard to figure out without input from other people (I know I'm feeling pretty hazy about how OCI actually works, myself). 
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: The Artist on June 18, 2008, 06:42:39 PM
hi...

i'm a rising HLS 2L with a relatively crappy grade situation.  grades came back, and, with no fabulous excuses, my 1L gpa equates to about a 3.1 on a B+ curve.  nothing lower than a B, but obviously nothing much higher either. bummed b/c 2nd semester was pretty much the same (so no marked improvement to boast, either).

can anyone speak to what I can expect at fall OCI? be honest, but gentle. thanks.




Seriously, go @#!* yourself.

Dude, don't be that guy. Almost everyone worries about their grades, no matter where they are. It doesn't mean they don't appreciate where they are, or don't recognize that they're still in a good position. This is  legitimate question, and one that's hard to figure out without input from other people (I know I'm feeling pretty hazy about how OCI actually works, myself). 

Even if this guy went to Boalt or NYU I might empathize with him. But this dude goes to HARVARD and is around the median. Not bottom 10%. Not bottom 25%. At worst, he is botton 40%. Meaning he beat out about HALF of Harvard's law school class. He knows deep down inside he is beyond solid. He just came here for emotional reassurance.
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: goaliechica on June 18, 2008, 06:48:23 PM
hi...

i'm a rising HLS 2L with a relatively crappy grade situation.  grades came back, and, with no fabulous excuses, my 1L gpa equates to about a 3.1 on a B+ curve.  nothing lower than a B, but obviously nothing much higher either. bummed b/c 2nd semester was pretty much the same (so no marked improvement to boast, either).

can anyone speak to what I can expect at fall OCI? be honest, but gentle. thanks.




Seriously, go @#!* yourself.

Dude, don't be that guy. Almost everyone worries about their grades, no matter where they are. It doesn't mean they don't appreciate where they are, or don't recognize that they're still in a good position. This is  legitimate question, and one that's hard to figure out without input from other people (I know I'm feeling pretty hazy about how OCI actually works, myself). 

Even if this guy went to Boalt or NYU I might empathize with him. But this dude goes to HARVARD and is around the median. Not bottom 10%. Not bottom 25%. At worst, he is botton 40%. Meaning he beat out about HALF of Harvard's law school class. He knows deep down inside he is beyond solid. He just came here for emotional reassurance.


::shrug::

I'll let OP speak for him or herself here, but I really think you're wrong. When you're surrounded by a bunch of absurdly smart, ambitious, competitive people, below-median can start to feel not good enough, even if rationally you know you'll be okay. This seems like a reasonable place to come try to sort that out.
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: TH14 on June 18, 2008, 07:07:55 PM
I don't know anything about HLS, so I can't speak to your situation.  But if it makes you feel any better, I'm at one of the crappier T1 schools, and am on the verge of being kicked out b/c of bad grades - albeit a marked improvement compared to 1st semester.
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: rainyday on June 18, 2008, 07:21:13 PM
yep, he got me. i actually think i am, by virtue of the name on my degree, 1000x smarter than everyone posting on this board who's not at HYS, and i'm just looking for someone to stroke my ego. 

i think goalie summed it up. frankly, i have no idea where that gpa. puts me. they don't disclose the curve; if they did, maybe I wouldn't be asking. if our career services posted stats, maybe i wouldn't be asking. but for all i know, i'm in the bottom 10%. i've been told stories by HLS alums who sat down at interviews and had the interviewer stare blankly back at them because their grades were below some cutoff the ER had imposed. no one ever talks about how the "bottom 40%" do in interviews or clerkships...they discuss what the better grades will get you, and I just don't have them. i don't think the managing partner of any big DC firm is going to be banging down my door like they would if I had A+'s (yes, we have those), and i'm not going to invent some fiction just so I can sleep at night.

i never said "woe is me; life sucks," but, frankly, i think it's kind of demoralizing to anyone--no matter if you're a rhodes scholar or at community college--to try something, fail to meet your expectations (which, in my case, were just to break even with my classmates), try harder, and yet still fell short.  it kind of sucks, and all i was looking for was something a little more useful than "you go to harvard; you have absolutely nothing to worry about." i did choose harvard so that this excruciating job-search process is--i can only hope--less excruciating.  i wish it were less excruciating for everyone. but i hope that alone doesn't mean i'm somehow not entitled to the same genre of concern about my career as everyone else.

i think it's pretty fair to wonder if you're going to get blank stares at interviews or if you won't be taken seriously by skadden et al.  believe it or not, even at harvard, there's (almost a passive-aggressive brand of) competition for good summer internships and jobs. the whole class wants a federal clerkship. harvard's class size is huge. i just read a huge prawfblog thread about how grades reflect on a student when there's, ahem, little variation.  and my friends are sending me emails about the slowing economy.

so shoot me.


hi...

i'm a rising HLS 2L with a relatively crappy grade situation.  grades came back, and, with no fabulous excuses, my 1L gpa equates to about a 3.1 on a B+ curve.  nothing lower than a B, but obviously nothing much higher either. bummed b/c 2nd semester was pretty much the same (so no marked improvement to boast, either).

can anyone speak to what I can expect at fall OCI? be honest, but gentle. thanks.




Seriously, go @#!* yourself.

Dude, don't be that guy. Almost everyone worries about their grades, no matter where they are. It doesn't mean they don't appreciate where they are, or don't recognize that they're still in a good position. This is  legitimate question, and one that's hard to figure out without input from other people (I know I'm feeling pretty hazy about how OCI actually works, myself). 

Even if this guy went to Boalt or NYU I might empathize with him. But this dude goes to HARVARD and is around the median. Not bottom 10%. Not bottom 25%. At worst, he is botton 40%. Meaning he beat out about HALF of Harvard's law school class. He knows deep down inside he is beyond solid. He just came here for emotional reassurance.


::shrug::

I'll let OP speak for him or herself here, but I really think you're wrong. When you're surrounded by a bunch of absurdly smart, ambitious, competitive people, below-median can start to feel not good enough, even if rationally you know you'll be okay. This seems like a reasonable place to come try to sort that out.
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: rainyday on June 18, 2008, 07:37:08 PM
thanks...appreciate the empathy.  and i can't believe there's now a LSN-type Web site for associate jobs.  we wannabe lawyers seriously stop at nothing to calculate risk.



Oh, I totally agree.  People act like HYS is some sudden and golden ticket.  With the exception of Y, the statistics indicate that's prestige envy and wishful thinking more than anything tangible.

Look at the notorious forum for better information; the people on LSD are, on average, somewhat less inclinced toward careerism and top firms, and, thus, less informed.  Here's a good example:

http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=264461&mc=28&forum_id=2

I'm definitely worried about my situation.  I'm not going to be complacement at all.
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: rainyday on June 18, 2008, 08:00:42 PM
well, i have my suspicions, but i don't actually know until i see the sample answers.  i'll pm it to you.


and it was actually volokh, not prawfs, sorry:

http://volokh.com/posts/1138056460.shtml#56467  was one of them, and i'm having trouble finding one that basically intimated the idea that across a number of grades, consistent mediocrity is noticed. i'll also pm that to you if/when i find it.

and no, i have not considered chasing ambulances.  with that, i'll probably call it a night on this topic. thanks for the research.  hopefully i can sleep my way into some decent firm.





http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/

Can you link me to the thread about similar grades?

What do you think you did wrong?  Do you seriously have no idea?
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: procrastinator on June 18, 2008, 08:21:38 PM
The results of "average" students (all of these were at the median during 2006, when the economy was still good):

Morrison & Foerster LLP New York Screening Interview -- Rejection
Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison LLP New York Screening Interview -- Rejection
Sidley Austin LLP New York Screening Interview -- Rejection
Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale And Door LLP Washington, Dc Screening Interview -- Rejection
Proskauer Rose LLP New York Callback -- Rejection

Lesson?  Bid widely.  Don't take anything for granted.  Interview well.  Cling to your callbacks.

My research has increasingly indicated that, with the exception of Y, T14 students have to make the grade like everyone else.  I think it's silly to assume otherwise.

I'm willing to bet this is due to a questionable personality and not grades.  Look, Harvard students get special privileges during OCI.  I don't think most top firms even have a GPA cutoff (unofficially) for Harvard students.  The universal decision date when law students must decide on a 2L summer firm is December 1.  That is, universal, bar Harvard: I think Harvard students have until December 5 or something like that.  My point is, firms love Harvard students, no matter where they fall on the curve and I really think a 3.1 at HLS is golden.  Just make sure you charm the socks off the interviewers and you'll have your pick of firms.  Dude, I know below median folks at UCLAW who got V20 firm jobs.  Of course, they were not the norm.  But if it is a possibility at UCLA, it is a near sure thing at Harvard.  I know we law students have delicate egoes and are used to shining in academia, which makes it especially hard to swallow a 3.1.  But honestly, as far as OCI prospects are concerned, you're sittin' pretty.  That really is the beauty of going where you go.
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: stricly bricly on June 18, 2008, 09:18:04 PM
dude.
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: stricly bricly on June 18, 2008, 09:21:12 PM
yeah, jesus, put the blog back up.  it was way cruel to start one and then wink it out of existence a moment later.  do you do this with candy and children too?
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: goaliechica on June 18, 2008, 09:22:33 PM
dude.

As in, dude, where have you been?

I will not creepily internet-stalk you, as I know you have committed to coming to my school, and may worry that I will harass you... But it's nice to see you again!
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: stricly bricly on June 18, 2008, 09:25:30 PM
goalie!   :D  i don't feel stalked.  just the love.  i'll be up there august 1!  i signed a manville lease and i've already put a few tears on my pillow because of it, but there's just no time to go up there and apartmenthunt.  oh well!


end digression!!!
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: goaliechica on June 18, 2008, 09:29:56 PM
goalie!   :D  i don't feel stalked.  just the love.  i'll be up there august 1!  i signed a manville lease and i've already put a few tears on my pillow because of it, but there's just no time to go up there and apartmenthunt.  oh well!


end digression!!!

Dude. Whatevs. For all my Manville cautionary tales, it is one block from where I live, and as far as I'm concerned that is an excellent location. Also, at some point, housing is housing. As long as it's got a microwave and a mattress, I'm pretty sure you will survive. I will see you at Thalassa, my friend  :D
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: Resident CLS Troll on June 19, 2008, 05:17:42 AM
Dude, don't be that guy. Almost everyone worries about their grades, no matter where they are. It doesn't mean they don't appreciate where they are, or don't recognize that they're still in a good position. This is  legitimate question, and one that's hard to figure out without input from other people (I know I'm feeling pretty hazy about how OCI actually works, myself). 

I totally read this at first as "Dude, don't be that gay", and thought "wow, goalie's true nature comes out."  :D

But yes I agree that the OP is entitled to a little consideration.  You shouldn't trash someone just because you think they have it better than you do and are still being whiny about it.  Granted I do this sometimes too, but whatever.

OP: you'll be okay, assuming you don't have a crappy personality in real life.  What market are you shooting for?  NY?  DC?
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: rainyday on June 19, 2008, 09:22:54 PM
hey, thanks.  i hope i don't have a crappy personality.  at least my gazillions of friends don't think so. ;) anyway, prob ny, since i know dc's harder to break...have ties to both.  we'll see i guess.  i really didn't mean to come off as whiny or insensitive. i'm honestly just concerned.  at the end of the day, bottom of the pack anywhere makes you seem like...bottom of the pack. it's all relative.

thanks for everyone's input.
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: rainyday on June 19, 2008, 09:33:52 PM
also, just one more thing to add. i feel like the people who would call or did call me a whiny jerk assume something that i don't think is really fair: that employers compare apples to apples when they look at all law students and that where you ended up is a proxy for your intelligence/potential to do well in the law to start with. but the fact is (even assuming such a thing is measurable ex-ante), it's impossible for the law school selection process to perfectly sort qualified candidates, given financial aid packages, lifestyle preferences, etc., not to mention the lsat/gpa combo is an imperfect proxy for savvy in legal practice, or that it accounts for potential across many areas of law, etc., etc. 

ubersmart people obviously end up at "less competitive" schools. so, even if you allow for the sake of argument that perhaps everyone "prefers" oranges to apples, a rotten orange is still going to look way worse than a good apple, even if, were both items were in a race, the orange would have beaten the pants off the apple.  (and that's a a REALLY big "even if," because at the end of the day, that scenario probably proves false more often than it holds true.)

hopefully that makes sense. at a minimum, just more fodder for the whole "law school situations are, at least on some level, completely arbitrary" argument.
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: Saja on June 20, 2008, 11:18:55 AM
Rainyday- I'm just another 1L too (were you in Section 6, btw?) so I guess my thoughts need to be taken with a grain of salt, but here they are:

Yes, your grades are likely below the median at HLS.  Ten years ago the median was between a B and a B+, and I'm guessing that has gone up to around a B+ just based on my observations.  Still, a 3.1 is by no means terrible.  There are people who get C's here, and they still get jobs.  That being said, with the economy as it is, you may have a tougher time than some getting a BIGLAW summer job, but you WILL get one, especially if you want to be in NYC.  While the top firms are more picky, the consensus is many of the middle to lower Vault 100 won't even look at grades, or just give them a passing glance, especially if you interview well and they like you.  Of course, OCS may be lying to us, but they likely aren't, and I've never heard of someone not getting BIGLAW who wanted it.  Have you looked at the spreadsheets of who's going to these firms from HLS (they're on the OCS website)?  Many, many very good firms do not even get one 2L for their summer program.  These firms want people from Harvard, if only to make the other summers at the firm think "oh, this firm must be good, people from Harvard come here!"  We get a lot of bids for OCI, and as long as you bid strategically (ie. not putting down the top 20 firms) you should be just fine.
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: CBrat on June 20, 2008, 12:45:50 PM
I know this is random, but wasn't there a post on this topic suggesting Seattle was a really tough legal market?  I've not heard that before, so I'm curious.
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: goaliechica on June 20, 2008, 12:49:31 PM
I know this is random, but wasn't there a post on this topic suggesting Seattle was a really tough legal market?  I've not heard that before, so I'm curious.

I love your avatar.

But I don't have an answer to your question. Although I have heard people say that before.
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: Force of the Tiger on June 20, 2008, 01:11:53 PM
. . . and i can't believe there's now a LSN-type Web site for associate jobs.  we wannabe lawyers seriously stop at nothing to calculate risk.


What website is this? Can someone reply with or PM me the link? Thx.
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: pat sajack on June 21, 2008, 08:55:59 AM
You have a very decent shot at a lot of firms, and you should bid on certain firms in the top 20.  Last cycle was insane so that people even with 5.3's were getting offers from Cravath--that's just hovering over the median.  This cycle is bound to be worst  There are a lot of variables, and for example, if you have a particularly useful foreign language, such as Japanese, a firm may be much more willing to overlook your grades.  However, while it might not make sense to bid on Cravath, Wachtell, S&C or DPW, it wouldn't be a terrible idea to bid on many of the remaining firms.  Particularly Skadden and Weil are fairly well known for dipping below the median for summer associates from HLS.  You could almost certainly get an offer from Shearman if you really wanted it, but for lots of reasons, very few Harvard kids ever go there.  Besides the firms mentioned, you have a reasonable chance and the NY office of any firm-- heck, you might as well try for maybe Cleary and STB, who knows?  It will depend a lot on you.  Use up all your bids and do so wisely, meaning have a big spread, knowing that results can vary a lot for people in your range.

I have assumed that you are looking for the NY market, but especially if you are thinking SF or DC, your grades could become a major issue.  However, even then, not all would be lost.  My point, however, is that if you dream of working in a big time M&A practice in NY, you almost certainly can do so.  Think a lot about what you're looking for because you may not want to work at a crazy big-time NY firm.  There are a lot of good firms around that are a little less intense that rarely get the benefit of hiring a harvard student.

There is no reason to worry, even with the economy.  As long as you are reasonably social and good at interviewing, you will be fine.  I have several good friends with similar grades who scored offers with some of the firms I have mentioned (esp Weil and Skadden).

Here are a few more suggestions:

Do the practice OCI interview with OCS.  Because there could be such a wide number of differences with your results, it'd be good to know that you are doing the interviews well to maximize call backs.

If you really really like a firm, let them know.  Go to the reception and tell them.  This can make a difference.

Even with grades slightly below the median, you are still among the most sought-after job candidates in the nation.  You should act like it.

But there are no guarantees, so make sure to have a plan.  Your OCS advisor will help.

Anyway, have a good summer and take it easy. 


Rainyday- I'm just another 1L too (were you in Section 6, btw?) so I guess my thoughts need to be taken with a grain of salt, but here they are:

Yes, your grades are likely below the median at HLS.  Ten years ago the median was between a B and a B+, and I'm guessing that has gone up to around a B+ just based on my observations.  Still, a 3.1 is by no means terrible.  There are people who get C's here, and they still get jobs.  That being said, with the economy as it is, you may have a tougher time than some getting a BIGLAW summer job, but you WILL get one, especially if you want to be in NYC.  While the top firms are more picky, the consensus is many of the middle to lower Vault 100 won't even look at grades, or just give them a passing glance, especially if you interview well and they like you.  Of course, OCS may be lying to us, but they likely aren't, and I've never heard of someone not getting BIGLAW who wanted it.  Have you looked at the spreadsheets of who's going to these firms from HLS (they're on the OCS website)?  Many, many very good firms do not even get one 2L for their summer program.  These firms want people from Harvard, if only to make the other summers at the firm think "oh, this firm must be good, people from Harvard come here!"  We get a lot of bids for OCI, and as long as you bid strategically (ie. not putting down the top 20 firms) you should be just fine.
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: pat sajack on June 23, 2008, 02:14:40 AM
well, the OP is sought after, even if her grades are below the median.  There really isn't reason to worry, unless she does something silly like only applies to firms in San Diego (for example).  There are a ton of firms that come to Harvard and will take whomever they can get, eg Cadwalader, Strook.  But it's also really important to make sure that resume/writing sample are well edited and the interview presentation is polished.  We have an amazing career office, and if the OP asks, they will make sure everything is in order.  Although I was optimistic, it would be a mistake to only apply to elite firms or only to apply to hard markets (DC, SF, SD, etc.).  Someone said that it's not worth it for the OP to bid on some of the V20.  That is simply bad advice.  People regularly get jobs in the V20 with below-median grades at HLS.  I know people with B/B- averages who didn't have trouble getting a job in NY last time around (albeit not at the V20).  Obviously, it's possible to blow OCI, but if the OP is reasonably prepared, there's no reason to worry esp. in New York.   It remains a true whether the economy is in recession or not that there is far more demand for HLS students than there is supply.
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: blubberbee on June 24, 2008, 12:41:21 AM
I know people with B/B- averages who didn't have trouble getting a job in NY last time around (albeit not at the V20).

What firms did they get offers from? Please share... PM me if you'd like.
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: Resident CLS Troll on June 24, 2008, 08:04:43 AM
I know people who were below median at CLS who got V20 in NY.  Granted Harvard's no Columbia, but I think that ruling out V20 is unnecessary.  I would rule out V1-3, 5 though.
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: pikey on June 24, 2008, 08:23:29 AM
well, the OP is sought after, even if her grades are below the median.  There really isn't reason to worry, unless she does something silly like only applies to firms in San Diego (for example).  There are a ton of firms that come to Harvard and will take whomever they can get, eg Cadwalader, Strook.  But it's also really important to make sure that resume/writing sample are well edited and the interview presentation is polished.  We have an amazing career office, and if the OP asks, they will make sure everything is in order.  Although I was optimistic, it would be a mistake to only apply to elite firms or only to apply to hard markets (DC, SF, SD, etc.).  Someone said that it's not worth it for the OP to bid on some of the V20.  That is simply bad advice.  People regularly get jobs in the V20 with below-median grades at HLS.  I know people with B/B- averages who didn't have trouble getting a job in NY last time around (albeit not at the V20).  Obviously, it's possible to blow OCI, but if the OP is reasonably prepared, there's no reason to worry esp. in New York.   It remains a true whether the economy is in recession or not that there is far more demand for HLS students than there is supply.

What are "non-hard" markets?  I'm considering DC and SF, but wondering if maybe I should cast a wider net, but I'm not interested in NY.
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: flyaway on June 24, 2008, 09:00:45 AM
You should totally try Atlanta. :)
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: pikey on June 24, 2008, 10:44:50 AM
You should totally try Atlanta. :)

Unfortunately I can't, at least not right away  :(
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 24, 2008, 02:21:39 PM
I know people who were below median at CLS who got V20 in NY.  Granted Harvard's no Columbia, but I think that ruling out V20 is unnecessary.  I would rule out V1-3, 5 though.

unsubtle anti-skadden trolling  :D ;)
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: Team Pam on June 24, 2008, 03:23:37 PM
DC is a hard market?  I always had the impression it was easier than NY because fewer people want to go there.   ???
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: Resident CLS Troll on June 24, 2008, 03:34:20 PM
There may be more people who want to go to New York but there are MANY more law firm positions in New York.  Look at the summer associate class sizes in NY compared to DC.  Plenty of NY offices have 100+ summers.  Not a single DC office has 100, and most have no more than 30 or so.

DC also attracts an inordinate number of top students in my opinion.  People who want to go into government, appellate litigation, etc. 

So yes, DC is (in my opinion) much tougher.  Unless of course you go to school here in which case slightly different story.
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: flyaway on June 25, 2008, 03:25:17 AM
DC is (in my opinion) much tougher.  Unless of course you go to school here in which case slightly different story.

Your opinion is reflective of the situation as I gather, too. 

Yeah, that's what I gather too.  It sounds like a lot of the most ambitious people want to go to DC.  NY, on the other hand, has tons of jobs in firms with a wide range of GPA requirements/desires.  A lot of people see NY as the easiest major market to get a job in for a below average student.
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: Team Pam on June 25, 2008, 07:15:52 AM
There may be more people who want to go to New York but there are MANY more law firm positions in New York.  Look at the summer associate class sizes in NY compared to DC.  Plenty of NY offices have 100+ summers.  Not a single DC office has 100, and most have no more than 30 or so.

DC also attracts an inordinate number of top students in my opinion.  People who want to go into government, appellate litigation, etc. 

So yes, DC is (in my opinion) much tougher.  Unless of course you go to school here in which case slightly different story.

Yikes.  Good thing I'm applying to both markets.  I definitely never would have figured out DC was tough from the way Penn kids act, though -- everyone I know is either heading for NY or California, and DC seems much less competitive by comparison.
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: flyaway on June 25, 2008, 07:42:45 AM
What, you're not applying to Atlanta, either? :(  You two are the only 2010 LSDers I know with strong Atlanta ties.
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: Team Pam on June 25, 2008, 08:05:49 AM
What, you're not applying to Atlanta, either? :(  You two are the only 2010 LSDers I know with strong Atlanta ties.

No.  :(  It was in the running for a while, but much as we love the climate and affordability and proximity to Waffle House and Chick-Fil-A, it's out for now.  There's not a great job market there for Mr. Team Pam, and neither of us is ready to live amongst quite so many angry conservatives.  ;)  We'll still be there all the time, though, so at least we can hang out every couple months.  :)
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: rainyday on June 25, 2008, 10:39:31 PM
thanks again to all.  i can't find the LSN-type website for associate jobs.  aquarium had posted the link, and apparently deleted the messages.  i'm sure it will be circulating again before too long.

thanks, pat, and everyone else who put in their two cents. i'm keeping my fingers crossed. :)
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: naturallybeyoutiful on August 30, 2008, 11:55:04 PM
tag

And rainyday -- Good luck to you as OCI starts next week.  I think you'll do better than you expect!
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: Private David Lewis on August 31, 2008, 01:39:10 AM
thanks again to all.  i can't find the LSN-type website for associate jobs.  aquarium had posted the link, and apparently deleted the messages.  i'm sure it will be circulating again before too long.

thanks, pat, and everyone else who put in their two cents. i'm keeping my fingers crossed. :)

Doesn't HLS career services give out that type of info?  Not exact GPA, but like how selective different firms are. 
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: naturallybeyoutiful on August 31, 2008, 08:22:37 AM
thanks again to all.  i can't find the LSN-type website for associate jobs.  aquarium had posted the link, and apparently deleted the messages.  i'm sure it will be circulating again before too long.

thanks, pat, and everyone else who put in their two cents. i'm keeping my fingers crossed. :)

Doesn't HLS career services give out that type of info?  Not exact GPA, but like how selective different firms are. 

It probably does, though I haven't run across it yet.  There's lots of access to official rankings, student evals, interview stats (e.g. how many callbacks got an interview, how many accepted it, etc.), but I haven't found anything really tying GPA to firms.  This makes sense, however, since we don't really calculate GPA or class rank here any way. 

The only thing I've come across so far is an estimate of the percentage of students within a certain range (e.g. "between B and B+") that get judicial clerkships.  There may be a document somewhere that (in)directly links GPA to firm selectivity, but I've never seen it.  I'm not OCS advisor, but I think that everyone (no matter his GPA) should cast a sufficiently wide net of firms in the targeted geographic area. I think it's kind of like law school, at least in this stage of the bidding game -- do your research and then bid for what you think are reaches, matches, and safeties. 

ETA I do agree with the OP though.  It's a bit difficult (and made intentionally so, I believe) to know where you stand going into OCI.   I didn't know the grade distribution was kept under wraps here.  Unless you are the Sears Prize winner (See, e.g., http://media.www.hlrecord.org/media/storage/paper609/news/2003/09/18/News/Sears.Prize.Winners.Announced-470066.shtml) you never really know how you measure up as against your peers.  If you get a B, you don't know how many students got a B-.  If you get an A, you don't know how many students got an A+.  Not only are you not sure where you stand among your section of 70-80 students, but you're not sure how you measure as compared against the other seven sections either!!!!  So I sympathize with the OP, even though I do think almost everyone at HLS tends to be much too hard on him/herself. 

OP - In the long run, your B average won't make much difference.  Unless you were shooting to be a SCOTUS clerk, make Law Review, or go to the very top firm right out of HLS - I don't think you have too much too worry about.  You'll do fine.  Now enjoy 2L and good luck on OCI!
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: Private David Lewis on August 31, 2008, 02:08:15 PM

It probably does, though I haven't run across it yet.  There's lots of access to official rankings, student evals, interview stats (e.g. how many callbacks got an interview, how many accepted it, etc.), but I haven't found anything really tying GPA to firms.  This makes sense, however, since we don't really calculate GPA or class rank here any way. 



Right, but it seemed from looking at those stats at my school (Columbia), that I could figure out that maybe 80-90 people were all getting CBs at the "top firms," meaning you probably had to be around top third to get CBs or offers at those firms (I'm thinking DPW, Cleary, Cravath).  Then the number of CBs was a little lower for firms like Wachtell or W&C or Covington, where you probably need something else besides good grades. 
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: naturallybeyoutiful on August 31, 2008, 09:49:24 PM

It probably does, though I haven't run across it yet.  There's lots of access to official rankings, student evals, interview stats (e.g. how many callbacks got an interview, how many accepted it, etc.), but I haven't found anything really tying GPA to firms.  This makes sense, however, since we don't really calculate GPA or class rank here any way. 



Right, but it seemed from looking at those stats at my school (Columbia), that I could figure out that maybe 80-90 people were all getting CBs at the "top firms," meaning you probably had to be around top third to get CBs or offers at those firms (I'm thinking DPW, Cleary, Cravath).  Then the number of CBs was a little lower for firms like Wachtell or W&C or Covington, where you probably need something else besides good grades. 


I see your point.  But I still think it's tough to draw conclusions from this kind of info because there's complete self-selection when it comes to bidding on the firm in the first place.  This, in turn, affects who gets an interview and, in turn, a callback.  (Maybe I just don't understand your calculation method though, so you might have to re-explain it.)  Here's my thinking.... 

-There are appx. 550 2Ls at HLS. 
-Let's say 300 of them bid for Cravath, and 275 actually score an on-campus interview. 
-Of that 275, let's say 90 get callbacks.  (I have no recollection of Cravath's numbers in particular; I'm just making all these numbers up for the sake of the discussion.)  That's about 33% getting call-backs. 

Unless the firm goes strictly by grade point averages and the 275 students who scored interviews have a grade distribution roughly equivalent  to  that of the total 2L class, how does it necessarily follow that that those students represent the top-third of the class?  Rather we know that student bidding and OCS interview assignments are not dependent on one's GPA.

So, let's say 39 of the 275 students who interview have a B/B+ average only?  Now let's say, 9 of those B/B+ students get call-backs.  Those 9 B/B+ students are part of the 90.  Yet there's no way that those B/B+ students are in the top-third of the class, even though appx. 1 out of every 3 students who interview with Cravath got  a callback.  (Disclaimer: I'm light-years away from my last stat class, so feel free to correct me if my thinking is wrong.   Seriously. :P ) 

In a nutshell, I just don't see how one can generalize on the basis of CB numbers or anything else without knowing anything more definitive about the population of students who interviewed in the first place.   ???
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: superduperxyz on September 11, 2008, 09:18:06 PM
Maybe this will give you some perspective:

I go to a CCN school. I have approx. a 3.2 GPA with some A/A- grades and some B+/B/B- grades (obviously more of the latter).  I did about the same first and second semester on average.

I had many OCI interviews.  I did most of the V20, some V40, some V60, some V80, some V100, and a couple random firms that have occasionally made it into the V100.

I had callbacks with about half of my OCI firms.  I got callbacks from almost all my firms below the V20, with a few exceptions. 

So far, I have gotten offers from nearly all of my callbacks (12 of 15), and have not been "dinged" officially yet.  I have offers from 4 of my 5 top choice firms, and have yet to interview with the last one.  I have offers beginning in the V20-V30 down to beyond the V100.

You should be fine if my experience is any indication.  Just for some background, I went to a good undergrad, and have limited relevant work experience.  I am on a 2d tier journal and have no law school awards, but am in the leadership of two major law school organizations.

Good luck!
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: Visual Dictionary on September 11, 2008, 09:52:40 PM
I'm a lowly 1L, but it seems like there are two types of BigLaw firms:

V20 + boutiques + a few that Vault badly misranks, like Irell and MTO.

Everyone else.

If you want the latter, then HYSCCN seems to cut the mustard fairly well, but you also need good grades for the former.  (And you need a decent geographic and practice explanation for both.)

Am I right?
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: Private David Lewis on September 11, 2008, 10:30:00 PM
I'm a lowly 1L, but it seems like there are two types of BigLaw firms:

V20 + boutiques + a few that Vault badly misranks, like Irell and MTO.

Everyone else.

If you want the latter, then HYSCCN seems to cut the mustard fairly well, but you also need good grades for the former.  (And you need a decent geographic and practice explanation for both.)

Am I right?

Eh, I think the Vault thing is misleading.  There are some "V20" firms you can get from T6 schools with bleh grades.  But there are some V20 that require top top grades and LR.  Like Gibson NY or Sidley NY or Skadden or S&S or White and Case I think you could get fairly easily, for instance.  That's just based on anecdotal evidence, however.   
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: Visual Dictionary on September 11, 2008, 10:32:07 PM
Agreed.  It seems like Skadden and Weil are easier than some lower-ranked firms, especially lower ranked ones in DC.

The point is that there are a handful of very selective firms and a large number of less selective ones that are happy to have HYSCCN associates.

I think.   Feel free to correct any misconception.
Title: Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
Post by: canada87 on June 22, 2011, 01:44:49 PM
Well that's why you have to work so hard to get good grades in the first place. ;)