Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Choosing the Right Law School => Topic started by: Sergio on April 27, 2008, 12:37:25 AM

Title: Pace vs. NYLS vs. Rutgers-Camden
Post by: Sergio on April 27, 2008, 12:37:25 AM
Deposit already in at Pace, with NYLS and Rutgers deadlines coming.  Similar money at Pace and NYLS (Pace has slightly lower GPA requirement).  I can get in-state tuition at Rutgers.  Rutgers may seem to be the obvious choice, but I feel I would like going to Pace better at this point after visiting Pace twice.  I'm also interested in environmental law and I'd much rather live in the NY area than the Philly area.

So is NYLS any advantage over Pace?  From all I read, the placement is similar (top 10% or so necessary for Biglaw) and I would prefer Pace.  If I probably do not want to practice in Philly, is Rutgers out of the question?  Thanks.
Title: Re: Pace vs. NYLS vs. Rutgers-Camden
Post by: imagurl on April 27, 2008, 11:22:45 AM
Sounds like Pace is your preferred school.  Unless you want to work in Philly or Jersey I wouldn't go to R-Camden, and I don't think NYLS will give you any distinct advantages over Pace.  If you felt comfortable there, that is important too.  If you want to work in the Westchester/NY area then it seems like Pace is your best option out of the 3.
Title: Re: Pace vs. NYLS vs. Rutgers-Camden
Post by: Sergio on April 28, 2008, 11:50:46 AM
imagurl thanks - I just saw that on lawschoolnumbers they have NYLS with like 58 OCI firms this year and Pace with only 16.  That scared me a bit.  NYLS deposit deadline is coming up, so I have to decide this by this week.  Still, most of the info I have seen has Pace and NYLS similar in placement.  And I am comfortable with Westchester.  I've lived in NJ for about 4 years and I think it is time for a change...

I will visit Rutgers and maybe I will be impressed.  It is tough to turn down a higher-ranked and cheaper school, but I have til 5/15 for Rutgers.

Any other thoughts?
Title: Re: Pace vs. NYLS vs. Rutgers-Camden
Post by: Yossarian on April 28, 2008, 12:02:45 PM
keep in mind that NYLS is about 549 students per class and Pace is about 275, so although NYLS has more OCI firms there are also a lot more students you are in competition with at NYLS.
Title: Re: Pace vs. NYLS vs. Rutgers-Camden
Post by: Sergio on April 29, 2008, 12:47:47 AM
True...I get a more cutthroat feeling at NYLS than at Pace as well.  Pace is small enough that everyone knows everyone.
Title: Re: Pace vs. NYLS vs. Rutgers-Camden
Post by: Maddie on April 29, 2008, 07:53:16 AM
How much more will Pace/NYLS end up being over Rutgers, if you don't mind my asking?
Title: Re: Pace vs. NYLS vs. Rutgers-Camden
Post by: antwan on April 29, 2008, 08:20:00 AM
I just graduated in Jan. from RU-Camden. I also recieved in-state tuition. The fact that you are considering going to NYLS or Pace over RU is laughable (I mean that as nicely as possible).

First, the state of the job market right now is really scary. There is little demand for lawyers from T2 and beyond (unless your in the top 5% or so, which there is obviously a 95% against). I realize that RU is a T2, but for some reason a lot of older lawyers think the name is prestigous. Every single person I know from RU has a decent job or clerkship lined up. Most people outside of westchester have never even heard of pace. NYLS will leave you well over 120k in debt, and that's if you commute from home. I've heard horror stories about NYLS's job v. debt prospects. Plus, your competing with not only the better NYC city schools, but all T1 grads who want to work in NY. That said, you should definetly go to the highest regarded school you can, and the fact that its cheaper makes it a no-brainer.

Unfortunately, visiting RU will not make you want to go there. The new building is nice and state of the art (opening this fall I think) but Camden is as bad as you have heard. The immediate area around the law school is perfectly safe though. And all the jobs arent just in philly. I'm working right now in north jersey at a small firm and starting an appellate clerkship even further north in september.
Title: Re: Pace vs. NYLS vs. Rutgers-Camden
Post by: lawordie on April 29, 2008, 09:54:36 AM
madness,
just wanted to let you know that i have visited both NYLS and pace and from my own personal experience, i enjoyed pace alot more. I found the students to be more upbeat and energenic and i found the environment to be more welcoming. Again this is my own opinion but i did enjoy pace. I dont believe that there is little demand for lawyers beyond T2 and laugh at this notion because that would conflict with the fact that 88.1% of the graduates from pace in 2006 got positions nine months after grad. I am deciding to a tier 1 two tier 2's and a tier 3 all with scholarships, some more then others and i can tell you that ranking and tier do sway my opinion a little but it all comes down to which shcool fits me better. I suggest you do the same and not let the "if you go to tier 3 or 4 your doomed" argument sway your decision!

Good Luck!
Title: Re: Pace vs. NYLS vs. Rutgers-Camden
Post by: antwan on April 29, 2008, 11:28:15 AM
madness,
just wanted to let you know that i have visited both NYLS and pace and from my own personal experience, i enjoyed pace alot more. I found the students to be more upbeat and energenic and i found the environment to be more welcoming. Again this is my own opinion but i did enjoy pace. I dont believe that there is little demand for lawyers beyond T2 and laugh at this notion because that would conflict with the fact that 88.1% of the graduates from pace in 2006 got positions nine months after grad. I am deciding to a tier 1 two tier 2's and a tier 3 all with scholarships, some more then others and i can tell you that ranking and tier do sway my opinion a little but it all comes down to which shcool fits me better. I suggest you do the same and not let the "if you go to tier 3 or 4 your doomed" argument sway your decision!



Well... first of all, dont believe the law school stats, maybe 88.1% are employed after 9 months, but that certainly doens't mean that they all have decent law jobs. Second, if you're ignorant as to the terrible current state of the legal market, then you really should do more research before committing 3 years and 100k to go to law school. I guess you didn't hear that firms are DOWNSIZING right now and even cutting equity partners. in 2007, firms hired significantly less associates than in years past, plus, more and more lawyers come into the field every year. And finally, if you think that there is a demand for t3 and t4  law grads (that aren't at the top of their class) right now, especially in the NYC area, you have really bought into the law school propaganda, and you deserve to be ripped off.

It's warm and fuzzy to say "tier doesnt matter" and "go to where the students are the nicest" but in reality that's terrible advice, and unfortunately the level of school that you go to will absolutely determine what jobs are available to you. But hey... you guys are 0L's so you know everything.
Good Luck!
Title: Re: Pace vs. NYLS vs. Rutgers-Camden
Post by: lawordie on April 29, 2008, 01:57:15 PM
madness,
just wanted to let you know that i have visited both NYLS and pace and from my own personal experience, i enjoyed pace alot more. I found the students to be more upbeat and energenic and i found the environment to be more welcoming. Again this is my own opinion but i did enjoy pace. I dont believe that there is little demand for lawyers beyond T2 and laugh at this notion because that would conflict with the fact that 88.1% of the graduates from pace in 2006 got positions nine months after grad. I am deciding to a tier 1 two tier 2's and a tier 3 all with scholarships, some more then others and i can tell you that ranking and tier do sway my opinion a little but it all comes down to which shcool fits me better. I suggest you do the same and not let the "if you go to tier 3 or 4 your doomed" argument sway your decision!



Well... first of all, dont believe the law school stats, maybe 88.1% are employed after 9 months, but that certainly doens't mean that they all have decent law jobs. Second, if you're ignorant as to the terrible current state of the legal market, then you really should do more research before committing 3 years and 100k to go to law school. I guess you didn't hear that firms are DOWNSIZING right now and even cutting equity partners. in 2007, firms hired significantly less associates than in years past, plus, more and more lawyers come into the field every year. And finally, if you think that there is a demand for t3 and t4  law grads (that aren't at the top of their class) right now, especially in the NYC area, you have really bought into the law school propaganda, and you deserve to be ripped off.

It's warm and fuzzy to say "tier doesnt matter" and "go to where the students are the nicest" but in reality that's terrible advice, and unfortunately the level of school that you go to will absolutely determine what jobs are available to you. But hey... you guys are 0L's so you know everything.
Good Luck!
WOW...you really sound depressed. 2 of my best friends graduated from pace (a third tier school) in '06. they were both middle class students who found it easy to get good jobs in the NYC market....and hey they might be against the norm but graduating from pace with the at least a 58,000 as bottom end starting salary isnt that bad in my eyes. You can get a good job, not have to be top 5%, and still succeed at a tier 3 school as my compadres have proven. Again im a 0L and am baseing this on MY personal experiences which havent been as negative as madness would suggest. But hey if i couldnt find a job to save my life i would probably write the same thing as him....
good luck
Title: Re: Pace vs. NYLS vs. Rutgers-Camden
Post by: Maddie on April 29, 2008, 02:12:20 PM
The reason I asked about price is because the only way I could see this being a legitimate debate is if he were offered a near full ride at Pace/NYLS, no strings attached.  Rutgers has a far better reputation and career prospects.  Personality fit does matter to an extent. But like antwan is suggesting, law school is a huge investment.  In the grand scheme of things, I think job prospects and reputation will matter more than an intangible vibe, if we are talking about large differences in ranking.
Title: Re: Pace vs. NYLS vs. Rutgers-Camden
Post by: Oldguy48 on April 29, 2008, 02:19:55 PM
Yes, well.  There is scene in one of the Star Wars Movies (I am watching then with my 7 year old son, kind of cool to see them now)  where a huge seacreaturish fish grabs a hold of the jedi's ship as it travels under the sea.  Just as things look bleak a completely huger (good word no?) fish comes up from behind and grabs the ship-grabbing fish.  A Jedi turns to the amorphous muppet-like alien and says "There's always a bigger fish."    I find it odd that someone from Rutgers could take such a dismal almost condescending position on a tier 3 school. Search around the boards and you will find posters asking the equivalent of "Emory or Rutgers with money" and a fair share of replies saying, in effect, it is tragic mistake to take a (lower) tier 2 over a tier 1.  Another poster will ask "Cornell or Emory with money" and just as many people will decry the foolishness of taking any school over a T14.  There's always a bigger fish.    I have been accepted to St. John's, Rutgers Newark, and Seton Hall as well as Pace and NYLS (all PT) and have tried to listen to  the notion that (unless it's T14) most all choices are regional.  Given that I would focus on Philly vs. NY and what you want to do.  If you have an interest in Environmental or International I would suggest Pace regardless of USWNR ranking.  I intend to focus on the fit rather than the number-- Unless of course I get off the waitlist at Fordham...   
Title: Re: Pace vs. NYLS vs. Rutgers-Camden
Post by: antwan on April 29, 2008, 02:43:26 PM
Old guy, I'm not sure why you would assume that I can't find a job, I have a great job lined up, Instead of attacking me personally you should try responding to the arguments I have outlined. And as you said, your friends graduated in 06, not now, the job market has gotten incredibly worse than 06. And I never said Pace was a dump, just that there is little demand for run-of-the mill law school grads RIGHT NOW and into the forseeable future. With that in mind, why would the OP go to a much lower ranked school on purpose? Especially when RU will be cheaper AND offer better job prospects than Pace in NYC or NJ.
Title: Re: Pace vs. NYLS vs. Rutgers-Camden
Post by: lawordie on April 29, 2008, 03:27:12 PM
Old guy, I'm not sure why you would assume that I can't find a job, I have a great job lined up, Instead of attacking me personally you should try responding to the arguments I have outlined. And as you said, your friends graduated in 06, not now, the job market has gotten incredibly worse than 06. And I never said Pace was a dump, just that there is little demand for run-of-the mill law school grads RIGHT NOW and into the forseeable future. With that in mind, why would the OP go to a much lower ranked school on purpose? Especially when RU will be cheaper AND offer better job prospects than Pace in NYC or NJ.
It wasnt old guy who brought up your job prospets it was me...I didnt mean to attack you personally. that was a response to your notion that if your not a top 5% in tier two you wont get a "good job" thats rediculous.
Plus I do however second OLD GUY's notions about the fish in the see! looks like our glasses our half full! good to hear!
Title: Re: Pace vs. NYLS vs. Rutgers-Camden
Post by: Sergio on April 29, 2008, 06:50:00 PM
Pace and NYLS will be similar cost to Rutgers-Camden if I can keep the scholarships.

Basically, I do like Pace.  I know it is T3 but is there really a big difference between T2 and T3?  I lived in Jersey for a few years and I think it is time for a change.  I don't want to waste my youth in the Jersey suburbs forever, practicing at some strip mall in Cherry Hill.  From what I understand, everything below about 30 is TTT, and only the very top will get great job offers.  So isn't it better to go where you will like it?  I think it will come down to if I want to focus on the Philly/South Jersey area or if I would rather go somewhere else.  It's all about region, from what I understand.  I just do NOT see the evidence that T2>>>>T3.

Of course, if I get into Fordham PT, all of this is pretty much moot.
Title: Re: Pace vs. NYLS vs. Rutgers-Camden
Post by: Yossarian on April 30, 2008, 07:08:17 AM
I just do NOT see the evidence that T2>>>>T3.

You are dealing with specific schools now within T2 or T3, thus drawing a general conclusion like this is not really helpful in your circumstance. R-C is >>>>> than Pace or NYLS. I definitely agree with antwan that R-C is by far your best choice. With a little bit of networking and legwork a R-C degree will get you a job anywhere in the tri-state area.

Did you apply to Rutgers-Newark?
Title: Re: Pace vs. NYLS vs. Rutgers-Camden
Post by: Sergio on April 30, 2008, 06:51:00 PM
The problem is Camden is a shithole, no offense.  I can't imagine liking going to school there.  And it seems to place very few people in NYC.  So it seems like you're stuck in South Jersey/Philly, and still behind Nova/Temple even there.

I was waitlisted by Rutgers-Newark, and like 6 other schools.
Title: Re: Pace vs. NYLS vs. Rutgers-Camden
Post by: lakers24 on April 30, 2008, 08:03:31 PM
Camden is a really depressing place. I'm deciding between RN-RC-Villanova. I think Camden provides the most bang for my buck but I dont know if I can spend three years of my life going through Camden everyday. I like RN, got a good feel from there but Im not sure if it places as well as RC. Villanova is expensive and seems to lack any kind of diversity, but offers slightly better job prospects. Im stumped and deadlines are coming up. Madness I feel your pain..
Title: Re: Pace vs. NYLS vs. Rutgers-Camden
Post by: Yossarian on May 01, 2008, 10:25:28 AM
The problem is Camden is a shithole, no offense.  I can't imagine liking going to school there.  And it seems to place very few people in NYC.  So it seems like you're stuck in South Jersey/Philly, and still behind Nova/Temple even there.

I was waitlisted by Rutgers-Newark, and like 6 other schools.

If I was you I would try very hard to get off the Fordham and R-N waitlists because I think they would be your best options based on what you are looking for. Its odd that R-C accepted you and R-N waitlisted, R-C is usually the more selective of the 2. Did you let R-N know that Camden accepted you?
Title: Re: Pace vs. NYLS vs. Rutgers-Camden
Post by: Sergio on May 03, 2008, 02:21:43 PM
The problem is Camden is a shithole, no offense.  I can't imagine liking going to school there.  And it seems to place very few people in NYC.  So it seems like you're stuck in South Jersey/Philly, and still behind Nova/Temple even there.

I was waitlisted by Rutgers-Newark, and like 6 other schools.

If I was you I would try very hard to get off the Fordham and R-N waitlists because I think they would be your best options based on what you are looking for. Its odd that R-C accepted you and R-N waitlisted, R-C is usually the more selective of the 2. Did you let R-N know that Camden accepted you?


No, I didn't think of it.  My numbers are a little below par for Camden but they said they liked my personal statement.  So that must have had an impact.  Also, Newark is much more diverse, so a white guy like myself may not have an easier time getting into Newark.

From looking at Biglaw placement, it's like 10% at Camden and about 5% at the T3 schools.  We're not talking much difference.  Newark is closer to 15%, but I wonder, again, if the diversity is the cause of that, as firms look for minorities.  I mean, 40% of Camden students get "clerkships".  But these are like local ones right?  Not the prestigious Yale kind.
Title: Re: Pace vs. NYLS vs. Rutgers-Camden
Post by: davus0 on May 03, 2008, 08:55:08 PM
That's strange; I am white and was admitted with 10K at Nwk, waitlisted at Camden.  Maybe it helped being from the area. 

I have heard glowing things about the faculty at Nwk and grads seem to do as well as could be expected for a T2 in the NY market. 

That said, when I visited for the Admitteds day I definitely did not get a great vibe.  And that was knowing what's good around Nwk.  Their paper propaganda is more attractive.    I am not ready for 90K of debt wagered on that school, but that's partly just where I am at in life.
Title: Re: Pace vs. NYLS vs. Rutgers-Camden
Post by: Sergio on May 03, 2008, 10:28:02 PM
Newark isn't exactly Disneyland and the campus doesn't make you really want to be there.  Nevertheless, it is pretty good value wise.  Does anyone know if Rutgers-Newark's pretty good placement is inflated because of minority recruiting?  Because it is odd that it seems to place better in the NLJ250 than Cardozo and Brooklyn.  Of course, these might be jobs in Newark where no one really wants to work anyway.

I showed interest in Newark by visiting after I was waitlisted.  I'll probably write a LOCI too.  I was also waitlisted at FIVE other T2 schools.